Welcome everyone.

I'd like to call the October 27th meeting of the Butte Silver Bow Study Commission to order.

If we can have roll call, please.

Ray Lynn Brandle here.

Laurie Casey.

Here.

Dan Denehee.

Here.

Mary McCormick.

Here.

Cindy Purdue Dolan.

Excuse.

Cindy Sha.

Chad Selk.

Here.

Matt Steppen.

And Ben Thielen.

Here.

Okay, if we could have the Pledge of Allegiance and Pier.

All right, thanks everybody.

If we can have public comment on any item on the agenda.

Right, hearing none, I'd have public comment on anything not on the agenda but within the jurisdiction of the study commission.

My name is Karen Sargent.

I live at 3021 Josephine Street here in Butte.

Thank you, Commissioners, for giving me this opportunity to speak to you tonight.

All reference to experiences regarding the Butte Silverbow Career Fire Department are from what I have experienced since coming to Butte.

Also, I would like to clarify that these experiences do not reflect on the firefighters in the career department, but they do reflect on the officers, battalion chiefs, and fire chief of the career department.

Some background information for those individuals that were absent from last Monday night's meeting when I first spoke of these issues.

In December, I will be finishing my 30th year as a professional emergency first responder.

Since arriving in Butte as a volunteer firefighter, I have been treated with distrust, disrespect, and disdain from the upper administration of the career fire department.

The upper administration has done nothing but assume that they know my experience and knowledge level.

In turn, I have treated them with nothing but respect and have followed the incident command system while on scene on incidents.

Take them out of the charter.

Specific sections include but are not limited to the following.

All of these are in section 7.03, subsection A, subsection D, subsection E, and subsection F.

Doing this will allow the volunteers to be subject to current state laws that dictate how each district was established and how they should operate.

Just like all the rest of the volunteer departments in the great state of Montana.

Doing this does not impact the form of government by the definitions and examples given to you by county attorney Enroth last week.

As such, this request may be put forth from this commission in the other changes with no quantity limitations.

It's a simple fix and it is well within the defined scope of this commission.

Do you have any questions for me?

Ms.

Sergeant, unfortunately, we can't take questions, but we will happily have you come back if you wish to uh visit with us when we take on debate deliberations about this section of the charter.

Okay.

Thank you again for the opportunity to speak with you.

Any other public comment on anything not on the agenda but within the jurisdiction of the study commission?

All right, hearing none, I will move on to approval of the minutes of the meeting held October 20th, 2025.

Are the changes grammatical in nature and don't change the content of the minutes?

Okay, so misspellings and a couple of grammar changes.

So the motion is to approve the minutes with those changes.

Is there a second?

Mr.

Athena and Seconds, all in favor?

Any opposed?

Motion carries.

Thank you for approving our minutes.

So our correspondence and study commission update.

Ms.

Boyd, do you have any for us?

Nothing new tonight.

All right, from the chair, I did send a draft of potential deliberation dates with tonight being the first taking on city manager and chief executive, and then next um November 3rd being reduction of the number of commissioners, and then the questions regarding should they be paid full-time or part-time, districting or at large.

November 10th being fire departments and possible changes to the language in the charter that could help.

November 17th, possibly taking up neighborhood councils.

Propose that we take Monday, November 24th off for the third Thanksgiving holiday.

Then December 1st being the coroner discussion and super fund coordinator discussion.

I looped those lumped those together, thinking that could be useful.

And then if we could I would also like to see if we can get Dan Hollis or somebody to be able to come and talk on December 1st, and then December 8th, looking at our cleanup language and the full charter walkthrough, leaving December 15th open, and then propose that we take December 22nd and December 29th off again for the holiday.

So if we want to have a discussion about these proposed dates and topics, I'd like to open that.

I did get a message from Ms.

Perdue Dolan that she was looking at possibly moving the coroner's discussion to November 17th.

If we could, but I'm open to moving it if that works for others.

But anyway, if we can kind of discuss and look through that general outline, that would be great.

And then secondly, with that business is the idea of having workshop sessions to at after we decide where we're going, workshopping language and workshopping, what goes into the report.

So with that, I will open it to you all.

Ms.

McCormick.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I like that schedule.

It works for me.

Um I'm all in favor.

Thank you.

Ms.

Shaw.

Okay.

Thank you.

Okay.

All right.

If that's um, if we're good to go, we'll go ahead and publish that in our timeline, and then if we can get that posted online so that folks can know what deliberations we're taking up when.

Um with the idea of workshopping, some of this language, if we could open up that discussion, please.

I think last week we had the idea of um spending some time maybe on a Saturday or a long session that we schedule, say starting in the mid-afternoon, um, where we can spend some time talking about what do we mean?

What would what would we have to put forward in the report, and then what might the language have to look like for the ballot?

No, we're not to that phase because we have another set of public comment that comes before we make our final report.

Um, but just trying to imagine what how to tackle this beast, I guess.

Um given Mr.

Enrod's comments last um meeting that we could have the three questions that were related to form and function of the government, um, but then we could have as many as five more that were cleanup language or uh languages that don't change the form and function.

There might be quite a few issues that this commission might recommend for ballot.

So there was an idea that we need to probably walk through them and workshop them in a less formal way and and more open um dialogue with the commissioners.

And I thought that was an excellent idea that was put forth, and so just wanted to entertain if we're up for that or if we'd rather do it in chairs like this and keep moving Monday nights.

But so it's up to you guys.

Mr.

Steppen.

Thank you, madam chair.

Um question or maybe a suggestion.

Is this something that we intend the entire group to be involved in, or is this something better charged with a smaller group of us that can coordinate schedules and be charged with crafting the language?

Um I think it's a good idea to have as many of us in the room as we can.

They would be public meetings, of course.

Um, and then once we get to I would say the outline, then moving from the outline to the writing that could be done by subcommittee, I would think, but I you know invite other people to weigh in on that.

Maybe those of you that have done these reports before can tell us how it goes.

Madam Chair, um, in unit six of the information that MSU local government study um component, their help to us.

It's the whole unit of what the final report components look like and what the county final reports look like.

They have final reports in terms of language, they have study they have amending the plan of government, they have a whole um litany of information and templates that could help us.

And I think uh in terms of how you have segregated the meetings from today and forward, we can have that discussion in a larger group, but I would not uh mind to have a subcommittee to take uh a look at the language that is proposed from MSU and to work with that and to submit it back to the entire study commission in terms of what our deliberations were and the specific language that we have come up with and have that discussion with our colleagues and to have uh a vote on whether or not uh what we have done in a subcommittee is appropriate and having that um having that discussion.

I mean, if we're going to this is going to be a long process, and I think what we can do is kind of uh separate and conquer, divide and conquer, I guess, and uh have those sort of recommendations back to the entire commission and have that discussion with the commission.

Um I'm just looking at unit six that I pulled up because I thought we would we're gonna have some of that discussion.

It's it's quite a quite a task, and there's again there's plenty of uh templates that we can use and the language has to be pretty um fairly uh easy to understand.

So and there's like appendices A through D, like establishing existing town or governments and what the form of the ballot's gonna be look like, and uh I think if each one of us took what we're going to discuss in in the next few months and broke those down into you know manageable uh information so we can make that um happen.

And that that that study commission, the entire study commission will be uh a long and uh um uh process to review it and to uh change it, of course.

Um that's gonna happen and uh go forward from that part.

That's just my suggestion.

Mr.

Jennahy, I want to make sure I was following.

So you would recommend that we um go through the schedule of deliberations as we stated, once we've deliberated on a topic, there could be a subcommittee that takes that deliberation and choose it for the purpose of the report, bring that back to this whole body to vote on is the yeah, this works for the report or not.

That's correct.

Thank you, Chair.

Ms.

Casey.

Thank you, madam chair.

I I would agree with Dan.

I like that format, and then I think it would be up to the subcommittee of when they wanted to get together because I think some of this can be done simply through emails or sharing the documents online through the OneDrive.

I don't necessarily know that we have to meet on a Saturday or that, but I think it would be up to the subcommittee of how they want to get together and do it.

Other thoughts?

Ms.

McCormick.

I agree with Dan and Lori.

I think that would be the best approach instead of having worry about having a public meeting and having to post it and and do all that stuff.

Um, certainly, you know, we will as a group in our meetings, in our regular meetings, we'll be deciding the key issues, and then it'd be great for have the subcommittee flush that all out.

But when I think when we go back and we look at the unit six, we're gonna have more questions that are arise, and then you know, we'll have the opportunity at another regular meeting to go over that and and make final approvals.

So I just think it kind of only makes sense to do it in subcommittees.

I always think about the uh thank you.

Whoa, there I am.

Uh not having a quorum and you know, even the even the just the whiff of in propriety about having too many people online kind of deciding, you know, talking about things which the public might want to hear.

I don't know how we can't do that.

And I I totally agree otherwise.

I mean, it's it's there's a lot of logistics involved Saturday bringing in this live streaming, you know, the whole thing, but I'm just thinking about you know making sure we don't step on any uh rules of order and business, you know, with that.

So just something thinking about.

Thanks.

Other thoughts.

Madam Chair, I'm sorry.

Um just for example, it's uh appendix D in the sort of template unit six.

It says certify and establishing an official ballot for the November, whatever it's election's gonna be 2026.

Um indication to voters, place an X in the box which express your preference.

So the official ballot language say the ballot of the amended plan of and they use the blue sky town government, so but you know, put that in there for that.

That that that'll be my contribution by changing blue sky to beats of remote.

And then vote for one for the adoptions of the amendments uh to the existing plan of government, uh providing for large elections at the Blue Sky Town Council proposed by the study commission and for the existing plan of government with ward-based elections.

So with that, one says the adoptions of the minutes or adoptions of the amendment, which you know we're gonna flesh that out in terms of numbers of commissioners or chief executives versus city managers, and then again another affirmative vote for the existing plan, which means chief executive form of government versus the study or the council commissioner.

So that's kind of a you know, you have you have to do some wordsmithing there, and and that's what we would come back to the entire commission saying, does that sound um logical in your minds, or did we miss the boat?

So just for uh example um what we're talking about here tonight.

Thielen Madam Chair just kind of curious uh Cindy said something about the air being propriety is that going to raise any feathers or issues with the public with the subcommittees and then everything that's transpires there is going to have to come here so just does I just don't want to get anybody in any hot water that's all Ms.

Casey Madam Chair I think the subcommittees would be less than five to not have a quorum but um I think Ben hit it anything that the subcommittee comes um up with comes back to this full body for an official vote at a public at a meeting where we have an agenda and it's on the agenda to vote.

So I I think that transparency is there it's just working the language out within and similar to what we did with the timelines and some of the other stuff that we have done so far that has all come back to this co this commission to vote on as a whole so I think as long as we work in those terms and bring everything back and post it properly I think we would be fine.

Mr.

Soak and then I'll take you Ms.

McCormick I agree with uh Ms.

Casey uh especially going back to the committees that we were on with either forming the questions to ask the uh department heads or the timeline that both of them which we have switched and we have amended um and I mean I think one of the ways that we're gonna be most efficient is delegation through this process and having it come back and I appreciate Cindy Benn's um thought about you know transparency and all that but coming back to this body and answering the questions that anyone can come up and ask at any time I think allows for that transparency to happen and it allows us to be more efficient so I am in favor of that.

Ms.

McCormick Thank you madam chair I was just gonna say I do like Lori's idea of workshopping online and the only thing that we have to be careful of is that you're just working with the subcommittee members.

On you're not CCing anyone and if we just work within those guidelines I don't see anything wrong and it certainly seems like a a really efficient way that we could get a lot of because we have a lot to accomplish so I'm all for it.

So in thinking about the process if we bring the issue like tonight we want to take on chief executive versus city manager we complete our deliberations the bodies like we'd like to to bring that forward to the public then the subcommittee would break up do the work of getting the report ready come back and we would vote to affirm their piece of the report do I have that correct Ms.

Casey?

Madam Chair I just add that when we decide or vote on what option we're gonna bring forward for the public that we also um maybe do list our pros and cons so that the subcommittee has that so you're not creating them for the group but I think as we're voting or that oftentimes you do you do say that when you're saying I'm for a city manager because I think it brings continuity that's a propos a pro on it versus and so I think we could do that in our deliberations when we're discussing that helps the subcommittee form the report and the spread sheet okay um Mr.

Dunahy do I need a vote on this process um I think it's advisory to the commission I don't think there has to be a formal sort of vote I think we all agreed that the schedule that you put out there is an effective and efficient one and I think that that's all we need to do in terms of that we can decide organizationally why wise anything we want to do in terms of subcommittees just those people who are interested in those subcommission subcommittees are important and make sure that we have not a quorum so it so it doesn't so that we can't discuss these things without having a public meeting okay so that said we know tonight when we go through our deliberations we need to give our pros and cons and I want to remind us too that this is to prepare our interim report there will be another set of um public hearing and another set of public outreach we might change our minds between now and the final report so I want to keep saying that for the record to remind all of us and remind our constituency that's listening that you know just because tonight we decide this is what we want to do we have a thumbs up it might not be that way as we go forward.

We might change our minds between now and the final report.

So I want to keep saying that for the record to remind all of us and remind our constituency that's listening that you know, just because tonight we decide this is what we want to do, we have a thumbs up, it might not be that way as we go forward.

Thank you all for um deliberating that I appreciate you.

Um the next unfinished business item was the party line, which um is going to be uh Wednesday.

So and those of you that are going remember who's going.

Very good.

Okay.

Um, and then we have our op-ed update from Mr.

Stepin.

Thank you, madam chair.

Um our last conversation.

I did make some small revisions to what I had sent before that I emailed today, but printed a copy for everybody to look at.

Thank you.

As I mentioned, it's essentially this very similar to the the version, I think version number one of the two that I sent last that talked about our potential to extend the timeline on establishing our initial report.

The only change to this is that has been approved by this group, and so this op-ed doesn't talk about the potential for extending it, but that we made the decision and why, along with a reminder of how the constituents can talk with our group, or or essentially the charge is and the explanation for extending the timeline is to try and gather more public input as we tackle these difficult topics, and then at the end it references how the public the the many ways the public can be engaged in the conversation.

So I'd invite, if not today, maybe after the meeting to review and provide me any feedback so that we can if we're happy with this draft, get it to the Montana Standard for the next run.

Questions for Mr.

Steppen?

Ms.

Casey?

Thank you, madam chair.

Um Madam Chair, I think this looks good.

The only thing I would do is under the mail the comment letters, I would add a room number.

Uh Annie, did they go to your um with the address?

Because oftentimes communications can get lost if it's just the 155.

Um, Annie, is it to you the chief executive's office?

So they can mail it and it will go in with our budget department and they'll put it there.

We actually have a box for the study commission, it will go there.

It can also come to the chief executive's office, but we do have a box that mail goes to.

Mr.

Steppen.

One other comment.

Um I've referenced in here that we've received north of 300 responses to the public survey, the community survey.

Is that accurate?

Is that something that Ms.

Smith might be able to let us know?

Um chairperson, uh yes, so I have kind of a summary here.

I was gonna pass these out.

Um Madam Chair had asked me to create just a really short summary that talks about just the issue you guys are um discussing tonight, which is the um chief executive versus city manager.

Let me see if that's enough.

Um but to your question, Matt, um we have 419 responses to the community survey to date.

So you might change that to over however you want to state it is fine, but there's 419 as of today.

Um and with the online survey, if you remember, there's about eight questions that are open-ended.

So if we add all of those up, there's over 1,900 individual responses to those open-ended questions.

I mean, I think the 419 is the number you're looking for.

Um, and then there were also about 60 comments that were handwritten at our listening sessions.

So hopefully that answers your question.

And then I tried to just kind keep this brief so you guys could go through it as you're having your work session tonight.

These are just summaries of the questions that were related to again the chief executive versus city county manager question.

So with those responses to date.

Um, did everyone get one?

I have one more.

Okay.

And any, yeah, go ahead.

Mr.

Stepin.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Um and what I had referenced in here was that we're seeking 375 to get a statistically resi reliable sample.

So it sounds like we've reached that.

So maybe I'll revise the wording in there that we're not necessarily trying to reach that statistically reliable, but still seeking the public's input.

That's correct.

Really?

Sorry, thank you.

I know my chair has been empty for a while, but come on.

Just kidding.

Um thank you, madam chair.

Thank you, Shana, for that.

I am really excited about that, uh, those numbers.

So the open-ended questions you said there's it like over a thousand.

What what what do you think we can do with those?

I mean, is there are we gonna put it are they all different, or do you see any kind of a common thread between a bunch of them or just curious?

Yeah, th thank you for the question.

Um at this point, what I plan to do with the open-ended questions is to try to summarize them as best I can in you know, two or three paragraphs, something that's sort of digestible.

Um thing I've also done is kind of pulled out a couple of comments under equ each question that might be sort of representative of a theme.

Um, and then on the back of this public involvement report, you're gonna get every single response.

Um, and a lot of them are sort of bullet points or one word, some are longer, but I think you'll want to read, you know, read through them.

Um so that's kind of what I plan to do at this point.

Yep.

Any more um thoughts on the op ed?

Thank you, Ms.

Adams.

Thank you.

We'll probably have you back up in a minute.

Okay, so if there are no other um comments or questions on op-ed, I'll be moving on.

Um Ms.

Casey, you had reminded me that we have exchange club tomorrow, is that correct?

Ma'am chair, yes, that's correct.

I believe it's at noon uh tomorrow.

And I think uh I am the only one signed up to attend at this point in time.

Cindy okay, thank you for taking that on.

We appreciate you.

And we we hope you'll be there too.

All right, so moving on to our new business, we'll we'll work into the deliberations regarding the city manager versus chief executive.

And I think it's fine to let this comment period or this deliberation be open, and I liked your idea to list your your pros and cons, you know, things that you like about it, things you don't like about it.

Um if we need to structure, I'll just go per seat and have you comment, but rather I'd I'd like to let it be open at this point.

Um, is there any objections to that?

Okay.

So seeing none who wants to open it up.

They're also very quiet.

Mr.

Thielen, I'm all in favor of changing the current form the way it is.

I think uh city manager uh would serve the constituents of the silver bow way more than the chief executive is at this time.

Thank you.

Mr.

Denhehy.

Uh first of all, I think this is an important ballot issue that should be on the ballot and having the voters decide whether or not has been said a change of form of government is necessary in terms of uh change in that form, right?

So there is a city manager or the continued uh form of government, which is the chief executive and council commissioners, which we might be changing too.

In terms of the pros of the current form of government, uh I'm a big supporter of tradition.

I'm big supporter of the balance of powers.

I'm a supporter of having one form branch of government, not over another form of government.

Um I think if we go to a city manager form of government, that balance becomes imbalanced.

It becomes not the decision of the voters, but it becomes the decision of the council of commissioners.

And that's why we have a strong chief executive government with a strong council of commissioners government.

Um for me, I think having that sort of dichotomy of having the voters decide uh who the chief executive is an important one.

I think it's important because of the framers said it was important.

I think in federal government or state government or local government, that change or that balance of power is important.

When we change that in terms of the city manager, and I get that whoever is the city manager, he or she will be very professional, we'll have the credentials, we'll have the experience, and we'll have to go through a number of steps to the council of commissioners to be appointed to that position.

Um for me, it's just um uh for me it's it's just tradition that not having one branch of government over that is more str is stronger than another branch is important.

We see it in our federal system and in our state system.

It's not a perfect form of government.

Um when you have one party, um and we don't have parties here, non uh we are non-partisan, but one party that is in charge of the House and Senate uh and uh and the office of executive, things happen fairly quickly and kind of give a rubber stamp when there is dichotomy and debate and thorough thought uh like the framers want it, I think we've got away with that uh from that.

So for me, I think probably a minority, but that's okay.

I think that the current form of government having a chief executive that is in the equal stands of the council of commissioners and equal stands with the judiciary uh department branch is really important.

I think if we go to the city manager issue, um, then that power is given up is taken from the chief executives, the executive form of government, and given to the legislative form of government.

Um but that's okay.

If the voters of this community say that's what we need, that's the change that they're voting for.

Um I'm more than happy to continue to support that, or will support that.

You know, I heard in our debates that um I think that when we reduce the number of commissioners to whatever number that's going to be, you have the opportunity for the council of commissioners to not have a consensus of twelve, but a consensus of five or six, which is a lot easier to get that sort of debate and negotiation going on with the executive branch.

To have seven out of twelve of any any form of government or any places we go in meetings is almost unheard of.

Um, but I think reducing the number of commissioners so they have a consensus that can have that decision and negotiation with the chief executive, executive form of branch is important.

Uh I don't think that giving a rubber stamp with the five commissioners or whatever the decisions we're gonna make, whatever number that might be, saying they have the authority to um appoint the manager of this government, and they have that authority, and they it's just how politics works.

If it's five three of you, three of them, three of the council commissioners are going to be have to be on your side.

And if you get three not on your side, then what do you do?

So it's it's important.

I I think it's more of a philosophical question uh for me.

Uh I think that uh having that sort of co-ecal branches of government is important.

And so uh, and I know it can happen, it works.

It works in Montana with the city manager, but I'm a traditionalist when it comes to this or this issue.

Is that good enough for him?

I'm sure glad I started.

Mr.

Thielen started.

Oh, that's right.

And he wants to follow up.

Mr.

Thieman.

Well, just one question for Dan and through your little sermon here.

Thanks.

Um which I thoroughly enjoyed.

Thank you.

But I didn't hear any mention of a mayor.

And I thought in our previous discussions that the mayor would be elected and eventually somehow be the tiebreaker for whatever number of commissioners we decide.

We're not us, but the the booters decide.

So are we really losing that chief executive because the city manager is just going to do the day-to-day operations where the council and the mayor are still going to have final say on what the manager does.

I think that's how I understood it to be.

I might be wrong.

Madam Chair Ben, yeah, I think you're right.

I think that's a I think that's going to be a night for other discussions when we're talking about the power of the of the districts, the changing of the districts, the number of the council of commissioners, those sorts of things, those sorts of things.

And part of that, you're absolutely right that the mayor would be, we've heard can be elected at large, or can be appointed by the remainder of the council.

We haven't really discussed that at large, but the mayors that I've seen in city managers perspective is pretty ceremonial.

Um they break ties on the council.

Um so um there's different forms that I haven't fleshed out yet, but that that could be that could be uh uh an issue, and that can be probably right too, Ben.

Yeah.

No, you're not, thank you.

Appreciate that.

Thank you, madam chair.

I I have to keep focusing on the fact that I am one vote when I go to the ballot, you know, and trying to keep as neutral as I can, which is difficult, you know, we all have our own opinions.

I love the idea that we present pros and cons of uh both sides, because that's what we really need to do is present that to the citizens.

And uh what are you waving at me for anyway?

Behind me.

Anyway, um, yeah, so I would say that I I like what Dan said about tradition balance of powers.

You still have an executive branch, that that doesn't change.

It's just it's not they're not elected.

And then I I do get the the kind of a nuance of a commission council of commissioners hiring and firing, basically setting up plan, you know, that uh I guess which would hopefully come from the citizens through the council.

Um but I I think a con the chief executive, and uh we've heard it from a lot of people, and I just quick looked at Shanna's report, thank you.

It's a huge leaning toward, you know, absolutely uh city manager.

But one of the one of the cons of the chief is that continuity that that word just sticks in my head all the time about continuity.

And you know, I I had to get re-elected six times, four times, five times, whatever it was.

And you know, hopefully with my institutional knowledge after 16 years I had some continuity, but you just don't know.

And it just so frustrating.

I I I sat as chair under four different chiefs, and you know, it's like a box of chocolates in a lot of ways, great every everything in between.

So I that continuity just really is important to me, and I think that that would be one thing that we want to make sure that we consider as something to recommend.

We're just recommending to the citizens.

Um then they can be I hate to use the word hired and fired, but basically that's what it comes down to.

I mean that there is there is an option.

We're not like stuck with somebody that it's either they are just overwhelmed or or whatever it is, you know, or just can't meet the citizens' uh needs.

So I think that's important.

And there's always you know good and bad sides to that as well, but uh just taking it out of the politics and um the elected the elected official portion.

The commissioners are different because they they represent districts and I I think it's not quite the same as a chief executive being elected uh by the general public.

Um but just keep in mind the pros and cons.

We need to make sure we put those out there.

And uh I personally think continuity and uh the the ability to have an option if things aren't working out with whoever is chosen.

That's my thoughts.

Thanks.

Casey.

Thank you, madam chair.

I was going to say the same thing as Cindy is that within the summary that uh Shanna gave us, and also with the department heads, and that we heard a lot about a city manager and the continuity uh of bringing that forth versus changing potentially every four years.

So I I think one of the cons with a chief executive sometimes is they do each newly elected chief executive has a little bit different agenda that they want to go forward with, which sometimes changes and causes departments to change.

Uh I also agree with Dan.

I worry about the balance of power, and when I read through some of the charters that have city managers, some are basically if we don't like you, you're gone.

I and I don't know at what point we put that language in the charter, but I do like what Bozeman presented in their charter, that if if we do present a city manager option under Bozeman, if they wanted to get rid of their city manager, they had to list and go through a process of the reasons why.

So it just couldn't be, well, we didn't like that particular decision.

Um I think that's important to help with that balance of power.

I also we heard from some of the commissioners that they feel like they adopt an ordinance and it doesn't get followed.

I think it's easier to follow up with a city manager uh of why that's not happening or to keep things flowing.

So I would think that's a pro on that.

Thank you.

Mr.

Silk.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Um you know, originally being so new to uh just politics in general, um one of the reasons that I uh ran for this position was to learn about local government, and um it exceeded my expectations.

Um to be in a seat here that has a vote on to change the entire structure of local government was you know, it's it it seems a little daunting, but also exciting at the same time.

I was also with Dan when it came to the the separation of powers and just from other communities around the state where there was some situations where city managers were managers were just let go for some interesting reasons.

And I I think as we've done our homework, we also see that, and Lori brought up a good point.

There are a lot of city managers in the charters that we were given, and and there are some good there's some good language in there that might help with that separation of powers, like Lori stated.

You know, there might be a 15-day grace period where a city manager can come up and defend themselves, and then in other language it says the next meeting at the council of commissioners, they can let the city manager go.

With such a huge change, if we are going to go to a city manager, I think we would all be in support of making sure that there was some checks and balances in there that helped with some autonomy for the executive side of the branch, even though that they're hired by the legislative side of the branch.

I've been in local government for about 17 years now, and Lori nailed it when she spoke about this much earlier that uh Miss Casey brought up uh example of how the one department was gonna go ahead with some software or trying to get a plan done, and then maybe you know every four years that did change with the priority of the chief executive that came in, and that is really hard to plan for department heads when there's long-term planning that comes out there.

I like for a pro the consistent the consistency of a city manager, the longevity that they could um bring to the table, but also the short longevity of using Butte as a stepping stone.

And we heard that when we were interviewing our department heads that um a city manager could be using Butte Silver Bow as a stepping stone, and that really just bothers me.

But just because that bothers me doesn't mean that it's not what I feel is the right thing to do.

They have an education that potentially could let them hit the ground running a little bit faster than some of our newly appointed chief executives and and the ones that I have been the ones that have been here while I have been here have done a phenomenal job, and I don't even know how they do it.

I honestly don't I know that they have to rely on the department heads to get it done.

That's really how I think they get it done.

I also spoke with Dan Clark and Ashley from MSU about a different topic, option one, option two, charter form of government.

And before we got off the call, I asked them about just the separation of powers and what their feeling on it was.

And they made me feel a lot better about the city manager with the executive side of government compared to being overseen by the legislative side.

I felt a lot more confident about going forward with the city manager the way that they explained it.

And I trust them because this is what they do for a living, and I really look for to them for guidance.

So right now I am leaning towards the city manager.

Now, with that being said, I still want to take the survey.

I want I want to read and digest all the material that we get, um, and then I'll formulate my opinion.

But I believe there are more pros now than I thought there were in a city manager form of government.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Ms.

McCormick.

Um, you know, I I really feel strongly like Dan about tradition, and it's really hard to give up that elected position for me, but it's something I guess I've come to accept as a necessity.

And sometimes when we talk about balance of power, I don't think we have a very good balance of power between our legislative and executive branches right now.

You know, that just because the chief the everybody's elected doesn't mean there's a good balance of power.

It's it's very skewed from the things that I've seen.

You know, as someone that worked as a butt silverboat employee, I came in on I worked under three different chief executives, and oh my gosh, I got beat up.

And it's not fun when you're doing the duty that you know, a job that one chief executive wants you to do and promotes you to do and asks you to do, and you do your best, and then somebody else comes in and you're so it's it's very, very difficult, and that political change is is hard.

And you would hope that a city manager would be somebody that could, you know, have a broader vision and not be pressured by outside forces that'd be what would be the best to have an efficient effective government.

So that that's my opinion.

But I I was kind of hoping tonight that we were gonna flush these ideas out and come to some conclusions about what we wanted to do.

And maybe I'm wrong, and maybe we're gonna wait to some other time, but if we're gonna start formulating ballot issues and things like that, I mean I guess I'm concerned about when are we going to be making decisions?

When are we gonna be voting on things?

Ms.

McCormick, I hope we would get to voting on whether or not this issue is going to be one that we're bringing to the ballot tonight.

And then I think we could start framing out or outlining the changes that we think necessary, but then to the points that our our colleagues made, you know, subcommittee that deep work.

You know, I'm looking at chapter four.

It's its own chapter regarding the chief executive.

So there's a lot of work to be done, and it's not just one sentence or two sentence.

We're changing a whole section.

So I think um to you answer your question, I would like to have us have a vote that this is one that we agree needs to go forward to the voters for them to vote on or not, and then uh workshop what that would look like.

Um is that sound reasonable?

Okay.

And Mr.

Steppen.

I think I'm last.

Um this is uh I was really looking forward to getting to this part of the conversations, by the way.

Um and I love hearing everyone's perspective.

This is a this is a difficult topic.

I think that any time you can find the most qualified person for a job, it's a good thing, right?

I think fundamentally I believe that's true.

Where I'm struggling with that concept, and I don't know if it's a traditionalist sense or or what, and it's a little bit different than what some of you said, but I really like the idea in a in a free democracy that anybody can step forward and raise their hand and be considered, right?

And so under our current chief executive model, anybody, if you're 18 years old and a member of uh a citizen of our county, I believe, right, can step forward and raise their hands and the voters get to decide if that person's qualified or not.

And I like that.

Um there's something about being more restrictive in our local government than our federal government, right?

To be you you've got you can raise your hand to become president of the United States, but maybe not to be the head of our executive branch in Bus of a bowl.

Um if if that's the path that we choose, right?

And so uh but that being said, I think the responses that we've received have been fairly overwhelming on this topic, at least through survey and through our public forums, um, our open houses, our department heads.

And it and it works in other communities in Montana.

But just to give my opinion on where I'm struggling with it, it's that idea that that anybody can step forward.

Thank you.

Uh Ms.

McCormick.

And and I that's the biggest thing I struggle with.

But then I just want to say that our county commissioners are still going to be elected officials.

We're still gonna have elected officials doing a lot of our work.

And another thing that I've struggled with is having a mayor, and we're just gonna elect somebody and pay somebody to kiss babies and go to meetings.

You know, that that's kind of so I think where we can maybe do some creative workshopping is what we're gonna have that mayor do if we're gonna have a mayor.

And are they gonna be part of the executive branch?

But they're gonna sit on the council of commissioners and they're gonna break tie votes.

Are they gonna I think in Helena, the mayor is part of the commission and votes on things like that.

So, you know, I think we can think a little bit more about how we can make an elected official that isn't a chief executive, have more power and more responsibility, but not but still leave those big organizational things to to someone that is better skilled at it.

Thank you all.

Um I have a couple of thoughts as well.

So regarding the executive branch, we still have all of the other executive officers who are voted our county attorney, clerk and recorder, clerk of district court, superintendent, sheriff, assessor, coroner, uh, treasurer, auditor, et cetera.

So thinking about that balance of powers, I think we still have a lot of representation by voters.

Um not to diminish the argument that the chief executive not being elected does take away some power in that executive branch.

So I think we need to be deliberative and very careful about how we structure the city manager position or how we would recommend structuring the city manager position.

And to Mr.

Steppen's point, I I love also being able to be qualified because I'm 18 and a resident and and I have passion.

Um but sometimes our cities, you know, need professional guidance.

And and I think that when we compare, um, sometimes comparison is a thief of joy, but when we compare, um, you know, other cities are making strides that Butte hasn't.

And maybe that is because of just and the nature of our our city, or maybe it's because of politics and chief executives.

We don't have an answer to that.

Um and then looking in our survey, we do have very strong support for a city manager form of government.

And again, back to the comments that our um our division chiefs said, you know, having a a city manager helps them do their work.

And then looking in our charter as well, we have this beautiful phrasing about having a strategic plan that the chief executive is to execute.

But yet that strategic plan seems to change every election.

And so perhaps the strategic plan being the guiding document that the legislative body is working with and the city managers responsible to implement would be a better form of government.

It might be more efficient.

Um it might be more transparent as well, because we're not constantly changing what's in that plan.

Um as to the work, Ms.

McCormick, I appreciate this.

I am feeling that we have a lot of work to do in imagining what Section 4 uh chief executive would look like, or city manager chief executive would look like.

And then also I think it does tie back to the mayor or city commission city number com council of commissioners that we would have.

Ms.

Casey.

Thank you, madam chair.

I just remind us also we received a document, it's called uh entitled Role of City Manager, MCA and Montana Municipal Charters.

So MCA uh lines out a lot of the responsibilities uh for the city managers and also the mayor and to Mary's question.

Uh according to the state law, the mayor is a part of the commission, so it would be the legislative branch.

So I think we we need to, I think there's several ways to go at this, but I think we we need to go back to the roles and responsibilities in state law.

And then there was um some charters that had city managers in there.

That's where I had found where Bozeman, if you want to get rid of your city manager, you actually go through a process, there's a public hearing and you list the reasons.

Others just say you serve at the pleasure, basically, of the commissioners.

So I I think we have some good information that we were um provided.

So I would just remind us that we need to probably go back to state law, start there first, and then add from there.

Mr.

Steppen.

Just a quick comment and reminder that one if we're comparing other communities, we're if we're one of the few consolidated governments.

And so I think what we're talking about is a city-county manager, as opposed to city manager, if nothing else, to earn some bonus points from Mr.

Banderau was not in attendance.

Good job.

Excellent, thank you, Mr.

Steppen.

Ms.

Shaw.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I I totally agree with Matt.

And um, you know, uh I I went through that salary survey, it was so interesting.

And I I even asked Google, I mean, what what's the w what other towns are similar to ours in in uh population?

Well, they don't break out city and county.

So Helena was like 30, I don't know, 38,000, but they're Lewis and Clark County was like a hundred thousand or something ridiculous.

So it's really hard to compare, and not just salaries, but just population, basing that as a uh kind of like a foundation for how we're doing this.

And they're just we're just really unique.

That is in Anaconda, which has uh I don't know that many people either, but six thousand or something like that.

But yeah, so it's it's difficult to compare us with other cities, municipalities and counties.

Yes, Ms.

Casey.

Um I do understand that that it's difficult to compare.

But when we consolidated at that time, they chose whether we are gonna run under municipal laws or county laws, and we had the choice, but we couldn't mix and match.

And I think a lot of our departments, uh Dan, you can correct me if you're I'm wrong, but like public works, the planning department as far as zoning.

Uh a lot of our departments run under the municipal laws.

So I I think not that we that says ignore the county.

We have we have to consider the county, but I think that's an important to know is that we run under a lot of the municipal laws that are in the state of uh state law versus the county because there are there are differences on a lot of different things that you can do.

And when they did consolidate, a lot of them are chosen to use the municipal laws.

Yeah, I'm looking at um just as a point of we've been talking about how much it might cost.

That's been one of the considerations.

The happens to be that Helena is looking for a city manager right now, so they have a open call, and their open call compensation is 175,000 to 205, depending on experience.

And then they say that they are a population of 33,000 on their call.

So that it's just the city of Helena in which they are are basing this.

Um, and then looking at our population our our um salary survey inbuilt with our uh chief executive, and if we lump our chief of staff, which was labeled as a city manager, we have 209,218 on the on the table according to our salary survey, just for everybody's consideration on that.

Not that we get to decide about money, but it's something that we've been thinking about, I know.

What else, folks?

I don't know how to what to do next, I guess.

Um, in terms of thinking about the work, Mary, did you have a thought in terms of um what else you'd like to discuss or uh directions you want to take this?

Well, I do think we need to I would like to make some parameters tonight, and then and I don't know whether it would be best to say we're gonna have a subcommittee work on both the um chief executive to city city county manager and the council of commissioners issues if we to have those two things be worked on by one subcommittee because they're kind of interrelated in some ways.

That's what I think.

But otherwise, I think we need to set some parameters of what we want.

We need to have a vote on whether we want to have this issue.

I think we have to think about.

I think Laurie's made some good parameters on deciding that we need to have some guidelines for the removal of a city manager.

I think we just need to talk about the mayor's position a little bit, but that would go over to the county commissioner, and then I think we should send it to a subcommittee to start working on it.

I think the charters that we've had as examples too can help guide that in terms of the language we don't have to reinvent it, right?

So there's there's great language that's out there that the subcommittees could pull from, um, making sure that we note that we're city county manager.

Um also using MCA as that guideline, and then you said minus municipal code was where we drew most of our stuff.

Um so I would entertain a motion uh in regards to is this an issue that we would like to bring forward um for our our report and the and the voters.

Ms.

McCormick.

I would just like to make one more comment.

You know, when the study when the subcommittee puts something together, you know, it's gonna come back to us all, and we can still make changes.

It's not like we're giving them the authority to make the decisions on everything.

But for me, I think if I had a document in front of me that I can then I can start making some more decisions, and it'll be easier that way, and I think it'll move us forward.

I agree, I like that as well.

So the the motion that I I would I'm asking for is if we want to put this um forward to the voters.

Ms.

Casey.

Madam Chair, I would make a motion that we put forth to the voters' language to see if they do want to have a city manager form of government.

And in addition, we form a subcommittee that would outline the duties and responsibilities of this that city manager.

Is there a second?

Mr.

Steppen.

Well, uh I think we'd probably need a second open up for discussion, and I've got a comment.

Correct.

So do I have a second, Ms.

Shaw?

Ms.

Shaw Seconds and comment, Mr.

Steppen.

Just a thought, and I I don't know if this is I'd I'd bet my state salary that this is gonna end up on the ballot.

But knowing that we have three spots, is it better to make a motion that we place this conversation into the items to be considered to be put on a ballot?

And maybe maybe not eliminating one of three tonight with topics that are probably passionate to people still on the to be dis to be discussed.

And then once we have an opportunity to discuss those items, decide it which of the that are in that bucket, make the final three, or are we ready to say that's one of three?

I guess is more a question than anything.

Great question.

I think it goes back to that kind of gray confusing conversation we had last week, where we have three questions that are about change of form of government, and then the other questions can be in addition to change of form of government.

Um so we had we'd imagine that there's three that are pretty um obvious change of form of government, this being one, number of commissioners being two, and then the third was how we elect those commissioners.

Is it a part-time or full-time, and are are they district or are they elected at large?

Does that answer your question?

Or you think there are more that are change of form of government?

No.

Um I guess what I'm what I'm saying is if we make a motion and vote to put this to the voters, and then something comes about in our conversations going forward.

Are we have we painted ourselves into a corner?

Mr.

Thielen.

Madam Chair.

Um if I recall Mr.

Enruth saying that you know we can have the the three, but then you can have several more in each one.

So you're gonna have more than the one question on the one ballot change.

But you could also change the charter to amend that in a certain way, too.

But as far as is this, it's already with the survey taken, it's already showing that people are not too happy with the current form of government.

Um I myself, this is just a comment.

I I don't think that it should be put on the ballot as of yet to make that motion.

So if that be the case, I'm gonna be against it until we fully explore more options of what we have going on.

Ms.

Casey.

Madam Chair, I I think we have to move forward in some fashion because we have to get the written documents so folks can make a decision.

I think the my motion if I need to reword it, I'm willing to make a substitute motion.

But um what I think we need a motion to this is what we're gonna work on so we can go um forward.

Uh I would we will do a preliminary report that goes out to the public.

If the public comes and says, hey, we don't want this on at all.

We're gonna be taking that off based on public comment.

So it wouldn't be the final report.

So I don't think we're painting ourselves in a corner, but I'm willing to reword my motion.

But I do think it if we have to move forward.

We have to get something down on paper.

We have to look at what we're going to do, or we're not going to get this report done in time.

That's just my failing.

Thank you.

Mr.

Soak, and then I'll take you, Ms.

McCormick.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I I hear what everyone's saying and not painting ourselves in a picture or not voting for it.

I think a simple amendment to Lori's um motion of carrying this forward.

This body believes this is an important topic that will be sent to the subcommittee, and the subcommittee will return back with its findings of whatever we need to potentially put it on the ballot just to have it ready so we can get things moving.

I um I think that all of us could be in agreement with that at least maybe.

Thank you.

I suspect that the motion amendment could be about putting this in the preliminary report.

Madam Chair, I'll make a substitute motion uh that we put in the preliminary report the uh option of a city ma city county manager form of government.

And uh prepare a subcommittee to do the the write-up for it.

Thank you.

So I'm second to follow the okay.

So I have an amended motion and amended second discussions on the amended and amended.

Sorry.

Robert's rules are so fun.

All right, so I'll call for the question.

All those in favor of moving this forward to our preliminary report and seating a subcommittee to discuss the city county manager and bring that information back to the body.

Aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Any opposed?

Okay.

Motion carries unanimously.

All right.

So now we have work to do, and I think the next piece is going to be sussing out who would like to be on the subcommittee.

Um Mr.

Denehy.

He's like, I will do it.

I thought you were talking about procedure.

Oh, that's right.

Yeah.

Sorry.

I fell asleep there.

Um I am conscious that um Ms.

Dolan isn't here tonight too.

So if it's okay, let's um kind of convene and I'll I'll poll you about who would like to be on the subcommittee.

We can have four members, and I think everybody would want to be part of it, but we need to make sure that we're uh using time wisely, so and people are available.

Mr.

Dunnehy said he would like to um anybody that else would like to tonight, Ms.

McCormick.

Anybody else, Ms.

Casey?

Madam Chair, I will.

I am not available on Saturday.

So if the subcommittees okay not working Saturdays, I am perfectly fine.

Yes, I'm picky.

I'm right with you there, Laura.

I'm right with you there Laura it's fair.

Any other volunteers and we'll we can arm wrestle over who doesn't want to be on it I guess.

This is what I was worried about is that everybody wants to be on it but we'll we'll work that out any other concerns or questions about that piece.

Okay.

All right so that was quick I can't believe it's only 614 um public hearing we do not have one any other scheduled matters we don't have one any other scheduled matters yes I was just when I was looking at some of the options that Shannon has put out I think she had said potentially the Elks Club maybe wanted us and some of those others do we have dates for those or where are we with those uh some of those other outreaches?

Ms.

Adams thank you madam chair members of the commission there were a couple that I reached out to that I haven't heard back from I can reach out to them again.

I think the offer from KBMF to do their news hour still stands if that's of interest to folks but I can follow up with those other two thank you thanks for bringing that back next month uh the noontime koanas contacted me and I said I would do that but I don't know if it's third or fourth Thursdays of November but I'm scheduled there too I think yeah excellent maybe it's Wednesday I don't I'm not sure yeah another morning okay so we're going forward uh with announcements our next meeting is November third and you all have a preliminary report right now sorry just kidding um but the next uh the next deliberations will be about the city um commission structure excuse me the city county commissioners the number of commissioners that will be the next deliberation so if we can come prepared with our questions thoughts um background information if there's anything that you've run into that maybe we have forgotten about please share that with others as well um with that I'll take a motion to adjourn okay I have a motion and a second so I'll say Sean Thielen anybody opposed thank you all 617 and we're out that's good job is party line Wednesday and Matt and I and Jeff couldn't remember who all the time