Good evening, everyone.

Welcome to Durham City Hall.

Welcome to the chambers.

The time is now 7 p.m.

And I will call this meeting to order and ask that you join me in a moment of silence.

Thank you.

I'll now pass it over to Councilmember Freeman for a moment of silence.

Pledge of allegiance.

Thank you.

It's our practice to stand and salute the flag if you'd like to join us.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Mayor Williams.

Here.

Mayor Pro Tem Middleton.

I'm here.

Councilmember Baker.

Here.

Councilmember Caballero.

Here.

Councilmember Cook.

Here.

Councilmember Freeman.

President.

Councilmember Rist.

Here.

Thank you.

Well, now I'll start with our ceremonial items.

It is October.

Breast Cancer Awareness Month, and I'll ask Councilmember Tabiero to lead us in a proclamation.

Good evening, everyone.

If I could have Richard Averett from the American Cancer Society, if you want to come up here and join me while we read the project.

Hey, Richard.

Good to see you.

Come on up.

Good evening.

So uh this is the proclamation uh for breast cancer awareness month.

Whereas far too many Americans face the shock of a breast cancer diagnosis each year, many of us know someone or have family members who have battled cancer.

One in eight women will be diagnosed with breast cancer in their lifetime, including an estimated 320,000 in the U.S.

this year, and one in 883, 833 men will be diagnosed, including about 2,800 new cases.

And whereas the American Cancer Society created by making strides against breast cancer to unite communities, companies, and individuals with a shared goal to end breast cancer as we know it.

A movement celebrates courage and hope, bringing together survivors, thrivers, caregivers, and advocates to save lives, save lives.

And whereas access to screenings and early detection are vital in fighting breast cancer, the American Cancer Society provides nationwide tools and support, including 24-7 24-7 helpline and online resources connecting patients, caregivers, and families to critical services.

Because of increased screenings, early detection, and better treatments, mortality rates have declined and survivor rates have improved.

And whereas making strides remains the lar the nation's largest and most impactful breast cancer movement, supporting survivors, thrivers, caregivers, and families alike.

Now, therefore, I, Leonardo Williams, Mayor of the City of Durham, North Carolina, do hereby proclaim October 2025 as Breast Cancer Awareness Month in the City of Durham and hereby urge all residents to support the American Cancer Society in making strides against breast cancer of the triangle in their mission to end breast cancer.

Witness my hand in the corporate seal of the City of Durham, North Carolina this 20th day of October 2025.

Good evening, Mayor, uh members of the City Council and the audience.

My name is Richard Averett.

I serve as the executive director of the American Cancer Society for Central and Eastern North Carolina.

On behalf of our staff, volunteers, survivors, and caregivers, I want to thank the City of Durham for recognizing breast cancer awareness month and for standing with families across our community who are affected by the disease.

North Carolina alone, more than 6,600 women will be diagnosed with breast cancer this year, and more than a thousand will lose their lives.

But thanks to early detection, innovative research, and community support, survival rates continue to rise.

Right here in the triangle, the American Cancer Society provides free rides to treatment through our Road to Recovery program and connects patients and families to 24-7 support in over 200 languages through our national helpline at 1-800-227-2345.

These vital services help ease the burden of cancer for families right here in Durham.

We invite you all, all Durham residents to join us this Saturday morning starting at 8 o'clock at the Durham Bulls Athletic Park for making strides against breast cancer.

It's more than a walk, it's a movement of hope, resilience, and unity.

You know, 30 years ago, I lost my mother to breast cancer.

Grew up in eastern North Carolina, she was treated right here at Duke.

But since then, we've had a 34% decrease in fatalities, and we have an ambitious goal.

Thank you.

And we have an ambitious goal in the next 25 years of a 50% decrease in fatalities.

We're going to win this war one day.

It's because of communities like Durham.

Thank you again, Mary, Council.

Thank you for your leadership.

Your partnership and community to a healthier, stronger Durham, together for saving lives and improving lives every day.

Thank you for your support.

Thank you.

I'm now going to ask Councilmember Rith to join me for the next proclamation.

All right.

If you uh are a current student at Myalma Matter and Associated with the tennis team, please join me up here.

The NCCU.

Just uh quick brief story.

Uh for you all students who don't know.

Um, I started a tennis team at my high school because we only saw people playing tennis on TV and they were all white and there were no black kids playing tennis.

So we started it, we sucked, but we uh wanted to, you know, have that representation and uh we got better and better and better, and NCCU is one of the schools that offered me an opportunity to play tennis.

However, it conflicted with band practice, and I chose band.

So I went to about five practices at tennis, and it just didn't work out, but I'm glad you guys are there now and you're winning championships.

So I'm gonna ask Councilmember Ruth to come down and read this uh proclamation, but I wanted to stand with you all tonight.

Uh congratulations.

Congratulations.

I know people usually invite the basketball team and the football team, and that's it, but you guys are rocking it.

So, Mr.

Mayor.

The mayor knows I'm a committed tennis player.

Um, I've played against Curtis Lawson, enjoyed some matches, and like John McLean here is one of the premier tennis instructors I know, a phenomenal teacher, John.

Thank you for all the coaching you've given me.

He's amazing.

So I'm so honored to read this proclamation tonight.

Whereas on September 18th through 21st, the 2025 HBCU National Tennis Championships were hosted at the renowned South Fulton Tennis Center in Atlanta, Georgia.

And whereas on September 21st, 2025, the North Carolina Central University men's tennis team captured the HBCU national title with a total of 82 points.

Whereas the finalists, Alabama State and Tennessee State finished with 57 and 52 points respectively.

And whereas NCCU's Naresh Barathi was the flight B singles champion, and whereas NCCU's Naresh Barathi and Antony Pankowski were the flight B doubles champion.

And whereas this is the second HBCU national title that the North Carolina Central University men's tennis team has captured, the last title being won in 2014.

Now, therefore, I, Leonardo Williams, mayor of the City of Durham, North Carolina, to hereby proclaim October 2025 as NCCU men's tennis HBCU National Champions Month in the City of Durham and hereby urge community members to celebrate the accomplishments of this hometown team.

Witness my hand and the corporate seal of the City of Durham, North Carolina, this 20th day of October, 2025.

Good evening.

I would just like to um briefly give a um a very special thanks to my coaching staff, Coach John McLean, and Coach Gabriel Kukalan Jacquez and each of our players, uh beginning with our seniors, um Kareem Abdul Hakim from Indonesia, team captain, Neiman Swagneed from Augusta, Georgia, uh Senior Luke, Lucas Artigas from Kerry, North Carolina, uh Southmore or Junior, um Leo Nardo Fortier Garipi from Montreal, uh, Canada, Anthony Bankowski uh from Gora Poland, Senior Uh Rodrigo Alves from Porta Portugal, um co-captain Naresh Barathi, Mitran Barathi uh from Damal, India, and our volunteer assistant, Ms.

Adrian Charleston, and our head women's coach, Miss Sophia Rachi Kukalan.

And I I thought it was important to recognize each of uh the members of the team and our staff by name because uh this team is very unique in that they embody um the just the the essence of student athletes.

What wasn't mentioned is that this team also was recognized as having the highest team GPA in the country for and I'll repeat that again in the country.

So for all Division One uh men's teams, uh this North Carolina Central University team not only rocked it on the in the field of competition, but they are also excellent students.

Um we're always very involved in the community as well, and so again, I'm just I can't say enough positive things about just how proud I am of the team.

Um I am so delighted that our mayor is also an alumnus, distinguished alumnus of our uh North Carolina Central University, and I just thank everyone for your support.

Eagle Pride!

All right, thank you all so much.

This time I will start to my left with announcements.

Good evening, everyone.

Thank you so much for being here.

Um just a couple of short things because I know we've got a full agenda.

I just wanted to say a happy 160 years to Mount Zore.

Uh the church has been in that location in Merrick Moore for 160 years, which is incredible.

Um, so I had the opportunity to go worship that with them yesterday.

Oh my gosh, yes, yesterday.

It's been a long day.

Um yesterday, and was so grateful to be welcomed into that space uh and just immensely grateful to spaces like Mount Zor and others that have existed as pillars in our community for a long time.

Uh so I just wanted to shout them out.

Um I also want to say that early voting has begun.

Um we've talked about this a lot, but I know it's not as sexy as a federal election, but your uh local elected's up here.

You're all here, so you know that we're doing the work.

Um but we are responsible for land use decisions and for local ordinances and resolutions and all of these things that um actually really impact local folks' lives in a way that I think federal um elections don't really touch.

So um do remind your friends to go out and vote.

Please go cast your own votes.

Um would love to see Durham in a blue moon election uh shattering the voting record.

So I hope you will all go out and vote.

And those are my announcements.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilmember Baker.

I'll be brief as well.

Um talk a lot about the UDO.

The Unified Development Ordinance is the DNA that shapes the world that we live in.

Uh, we don't own the means of producing our city for the most part, but we do own the DNA that shapes the way that uh our city gets built over time.

Uh we only update the unified development ordinance a couple two, three times per century.

So each of these opportunities to rewrite our unified development ordinance impacts uh generations to come.

So these are important moments.

So tomorrow, the consultant team is virtually presenting uh module three, their their third uh grouping of uh updated uh regulations.

Um you can find that information on engaged durham dot com.

They are presenting the environmental protection uh subdivision and infrastructure uh provisions on November 13th.

There's gonna be an in-person meeting at the Durham County Administration Building, and November 18th, there will be a virtual meeting.

There's also um office hours, which you can find those dates and times on Engaged Durham.com.

So please uh plug in and pay attention and engage with that.

That's it for me.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilmember Gabrielo.

Thank you, good evening, everyone.

Uh just a few announcements.

Uh last week I was able to be um at a conference, really a summit for Latinx ed.

They're the largest uh Latino student success nonprofit in the state of North Carolina.

Uh it's one of the largest gatherings of Latinos in the state of North Carolina every year.

Uh and so it was really a wonderful experience to be with them uh last year.

I will say, you know, it's getting harder and harder um for folks.

Uh we opened our session with um lots of conversations around safety.

Uh it was incorporated into the summit in a way that hadn't had to be before uh because there were so many folks with uh mixed documentation status in their families or as participants.

Um it was uh it was a very joyous celebration, but also very sobering because of so many attacks on immigrant communities in this moment.

So I just want to lift up all of the organizers for that incredible summit and everyone who attended.

Uh it's something that gives me uh a lot of strength and joy when I do that to go.

So um again, the organization is Latinx Ed.

Uh, they're an incredible organization doing work all across the state in service to Let You know students.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilmember Freeman.

Thank you.

Good evening, everyone.

Uh just definitely want to make sure to acknowledge breast cancer awareness month as I know it does touch a lot of um women and men as well.

And then also congratulations to NCCU uh tennis team.

I'm also an Eagle, so uh fortunate to have that in common.

And uh just a big shout out for Indigenous People's Day and Italian Heritage Day as well.

Uh I definitely want to make sure that I mentioned that early voting is now and that there are five locations, and the Durham Main Library is not one of them.

Um please, please, please, please make sure you figure out your plan and uh get out and vote.

Um I also want to send a very hearty uh shout out to Mount Zor and acknowledge that they've been doing a lot of community engagement work.

Um trying to make sure that people understand civics and ways in which I hope that more of our community will engage and um looking forward to seeing what comes next with them.

And uh definitely and also in honor of NCCU's uh ultimate homecoming experience this weekend.

I want to make sure that you all know to stay off the road if you can, ride the bus, walk, um, avoid anywhere near Fedville Street or Austin Avenue, and you will be you'll be okay.

Um the game is Saturday.

Um definitely uh want to avoid that area if you can.

Uh uh last but not least, uh do want to just make sure I do share that it is Med Week, and since 1983, presidents have proclaimed National Med Week observance to recognize outstanding accomplishments in minority businesses, minority business enterprises, and to honor the corporations and financial institutions supporting minority business development.

Uh Durham's Med Week this week celebrates the achievements of minority minority entrepreneurs and a firm's government, business, and community organizations' commitment to principles of equal opportunity.

It is our hope that we'll celebrate not only the minority and women-owned businesses and the economic vibrancy that they bring to our city, but also to continue to see their growth and to promote their growth and success and making sure that you all all know and are aware of all the events happening this week um at the Durham Convention Center.

Other than that, I think that covers all of my announcements.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilmember.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Good evening, colleagues, staff, residents here and online, good to see you all.

Um a couple of things.

I know we have a lot going on tonight, so just keep my comments brief.

Thank you, Councilmember Freeman, for mentioning for mentioning Med Week.

Um, and I want to thank the city and the staff for sponsoring and actually our sponsors for organizing what was a great event.

I was there today with with Bo and a number of other staff for the opening and the keynote uh today.

Amazing celebration of minority businesses.

And I also want to say for the people that are urging this council continually to stand up to the stuff we're getting from the state and federal government.

I want you to know why a lot of folks are, while a lot of folks are backing off of supporting minority economic development.

This council and the staff is 100% supportive of our minority economic business development business community and supports Medweek 100%.

So I'm glad to see the staff doing that.

It's a really important statement of who we are here in Durham.

I know people are here for a couple of really important hearings, and that's an important way that we do democracy and local government.

But I also want to let you know that's by no means all that we do here at the City of Durham.

In case you're not aware, and in case you haven't gone through the whole agenda, there's a bunch of items on this agenda that we work through the work session that are critical pieces of how we do local government here in Durham.

And I mentioned I just want to mention a couple.

I think they're not going to get pulled, they may get pulled, but definitely get pulled, but I want to make sure you're all aware of this.

Number one, there's a biophilic cities resolution, and shout out to the folks from the new Hubbert Alliance for bringing this forward to me.

Um that commits us along with peers and 30 other cities worldwide to being an urban area that embraces that embraces nature and the environment as essential elements of urban living and commits us to a couple metrics to track our performance on that.

So this is a really critical statement we're making as a city.

There's also on the agenda a Page Roads Apartments deal.

That's 100% affordable housing, 160 units, 100% affordable, and 60 percent AMI or below.

It's not funded by a proffer.

We get sometimes we get affordable housing through proffers.

It's not city owned land.

It's not city subsidy through the bond fund, is essentially an agreement or like a deal with um uh more uh multifamily mortgage revenue bonds and tax credit investors that are invested in this project.

We're doing this with our partners at Durham Housing Authority.

It's another way, we have many tools and a toolbox.

It's one of many ways that we are ensuring that more affordable housing is getting built in Durham to meet the needs that we have.

And I want to make sure you're aware of that.

There's also a model uh pilot of lending for backyard ADUs for families that qualify by income.

It's one way we can help homeowners to build their wealth as homeowners, but also create more affordable housing units.

This is really a model, um, a model thing that's funded by your housing bond um developed by the staff.

I appreciate the staff working through the details.

It's a complicated thing, but it's a model thing, not many communities are doing, um, but also working with our contractor at Quorum Homes to build these ADUs.

Model thing, and stay tuned for the results on that.

Finally, we're approving additional funds for the Durham Affordable Housing Loan Fund.

Another way we're creating affordable housing.

That's a loan fund that we at the city, the county, and Duke University are contributing to to allow us to quickly acquire affordable properties that are coming out of their tax credit phase, the 30-year phase, to acquire those quickly, bridge those over to nonprofit developers, and keep them as affordable housing units.

So there's a lot that we're doing here, all important ways that the city is working, often under the radar screen, to make this a better community for all of us.

So thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Thank you.

Um, thank you, and good evening, your honor, to my honorable colleagues, to our staff, to all who are in chambers tonight, uh with us in person and whatever platform you may be uh watching on very quickly.

I want to thank my colleagues and associate myself with their comments about Medweek, which in this current climate feels more like an act of defiance uh than just observance.

So I want to associate myself with those comments.

And finally, I want to say Diwali Mubarak to all of our residents and friends and neighbors who are celebrating Diwali uh today.

May the light forever defeat the darkness.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Thank you so much to my colleagues for all of your remarks.

Um, happy homecoming NCCU.

I look forward to uh seeing you at some of the events this week and um having a good time.

For disclosure to everyone who has not noticed the parade has already happened.

It was last Saturday, and I think for the first time since I graduated, I missed a parade.

So there are some changes that were made uh for the sake of safety and just reconfiguring some things.

Um but so next Saturday will be the game and it'll be just a game.

But uh and I'll give this announcement um reluctantly, but the yard will be closing after the game.

Um normally we go to the bowl and have a great time.

So since the bowl will be closing around six or seven o'clock, please come downtown uh and spend your money and your tax dollars um throughout the city and uh enjoy all of what Durham has to offer.

And hopefully in the future, we'll be able to work together more uh as a city and the universities, uh Duke and NCCU to uh promote our uh citywide experience.

And uh thank just many of the remarks I was gonna give has already been made.

Uh happy Diwali, of course, I'll be out there with them tomorrow with the Indian community at BEPS.

Uh I know there are thousands uh that will be convening.

I look forward to joining them tomorrow.

Um and of course, Medweek.

Yes, uh, you're right.

It it does feel like an act of defiance, Mayor Pro Tim.

Um, because you know, we they're they're uh Washington is watching and trying to shut us down in every way possible.

Um is not happening in Durham.

We're going to continue to stand on our values.

Um I I did want to thank uh Councilmember Riss.

You you brought up some really, really valid points.

We are we are always talking about the city is not doing enough.

Uh, but to, you know, as we are thinking about every possible way that we can address affordable housing to address housing supply in general.

I it feels great to be amongst the council where we are putting money, you know, not only do we tax ourselves for affordable housing, we are actually putting money toward ADUs.

Um we we are putting money toward ADUs to make sure that we can put those in, you know, more backyards uh to house more people.

We are putting more money into affordable the affordable housing loan fund.

Uh these are just some of the tools in our toolbox that we are addressing.

So uh in tonight we're going to address a really big uh policy that I look forward to uh discussing that will uh address more of the actual conditions.

So uh we have a lot of work to do.

I'm going to keep my comments short and get right to it.

And I know there are some signs in the audience.

I will respectfully ask that we not hold those signs up because it blocks the view.

And normally I do not, you know, try and enforce, please don't charge me.

Uh I try not to, you know, overly enforce it because I want to make sure that everyone's voices are heard, but please don't block the view of others.

Uh so that I asked to if you I I will ask if you just you have a sign, hold it in front of you rather than up and blocking people.

All right.

At this time, I will ask our um manager to address your priority items.

Good evening, Mayor, Mayor Pro Tem, members of council.

Uh the City Manager's office only has informational items this evening.

That is the for agenda item number nine and number sixteen.

Presentations were received during the October 9th work session for these items.

Those are all my priority items this evening.

Mr.

Good evening, uh, Mr.

Mayor, Mayor Pro Tem, and members of City Council.

Um, senior Deputy City Attorney Fred Lamar sitting in for the City Attorney Kim Rayburg.

Um the City Attorney's Office has no priority items.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Madam Clark.

Good evening, Mr.

Mayor, Mr.

Mayor Pro Tem, and City Council members.

The City Clerk's office has no priority items this evening.

Thank you.

Could you come back up here for a moment also?

Mayor Pro Tem.

Thank you.

The priority items having been uh discharged.

We will now uh read the consent agenda for the record.

The consent agenda is comprised of items that the council has already had opportunity to do a deep dive into the previous work session and can be passed with one vote.

However, uh any member of the public or any member of the council is uh in a position to pull an item.

Uh I'll read that now, beginning with our consent agenda item number one.

Item number one, mayor's Hispanic Latino Committee appointment.

Item number two, Durham Bicycle and Pedestrian Advisory Commission appointments.

Item number three, Durham Convention and Visitors Bureau Discover Durham, mayoral appointment.

Item four, Durham Convention and Visitors Bureau, Discover Durham Joint City County Representative appointment.

Item five, participatory budget steering committee appointment.

Item number seven, approval of the biophilic resolution.

Item number nine, Durham Rail Trail Project Design Update and Professional Services Contract Amendment with the John R.

McAdams Company Incorporated.

Suspending for a second.

All right.

Item number 10, Third Amendment to Project Management Consulting Services Contract with Turner and Towns in Heary, LLC.

Item number 11, rooftop PV pre-assessment and design build contracts with renewed energy solutions, LLC.

Item number 12, First Amendment to contract for citywide window washing services.

Item number 13, resolution providing approval of paid or departments and the financing thereof with multifamily housing revenue bonds.

Item 15, amended and restated loan agreement with self-help ventures fund, Durham Affordable Housing Loan Fund.

Item 16, contract with Quorum Houses LLC to administer the affordable accessory dwelling unit ADU loan pilot program.

Mr.

Mayor Pro Tem I like to pull that item.

Item number 16 is pool.

Thank you.

Continuing.

Item number 17, First Amendment to the Central Square Solutions and Support Agreement.

Item 18, Amendment No.

for lead and copper rule pro copper rule program management.

Item number 19, contract amendment one to the service contract with ADS Environmental Services, LLC for Sanitary Sewer Flow and Rainfall Monitoring, Comprehensive Service and Maintenance.

Under General Business Agenda Item Number 8, approval of ordinance revision to Chapter 10, Article 6 Housing Code Section 10 241.

And under general business agenda public hearings, item number 22, Cliff Street, Partial Street closing, item number 23, consolidated zoning map change, Ravenstone Commercial, item number 24, consolidated annexation, Wake Olive, item number 25, consolidated zoning map change 1607 East Cornwallis Road.

That ends the reading of our published agenda.

And we can pass it with the exception of item number 16, which was pulled by Councilmember Baker.

Mr.

Mayor, you wish to reassume the gavel?

I'll assume the gavel.

Thank you.

So all items have been read.

And with the exception of item number 16, I'll entertain a motion to Madam Clark.

Can we please open the vote?

Is everyone voting?

There we go.

Thank you.

Please close the vote.

Motion passes 7 0.

All right.

I will start with item number 16.

Thanks, Mr.

Mayor.

Yeah.

So this item is 1.75 million dollars.

It came through.

There was a lot of I think good discussion during the Thursday work session.

I just want to raise some of the key facts about this item.

And then I do have a question for staff.

I like to turn it over to colleagues to see if they have any questions.

So there the goal here is uh 20 new accessory dwelling units over the next two to three years.

This is uh 1.75 million dollars.

Um some of this is for uh work products.

Um there's also payment for each of the units uh to to quorum homes.

The goal is uh at 80 percent area median income.

We don't currently correct me if I'm wrong, but we don't currently have a a term for the the amount of time that we want that to be affordable, right?

Um if you can correct me, that that would be great.

Uh and then yeah, this is for the next two to develop 20 new accessory dwelling units over the next two to three years.

Is that more or less correct on some of the high-level pieces of of this contract?

Uh good evening.

Matt Walker uh Housing and Neighborhood Services.

That's correct.

The term of the loan is proposed for 30 years, so the affordability would be for 30 years for the term of the loan.

Okay, the term of the loan is is the term of the loan is 30 years.

The affordability period is they would run concurrently.

Is for 30 years as well.

Yes.

Okay, okay.

Uh thank you for clarifying that.

Um, so I only wanted to raise this uh because we we have we bring in a lot of uh housing that is affordable to at the 80 percent area median income level through uh private sector developments.

Um I tend to prefer us to focus public dollars on the deeply affordable uh housing and need for affordable housing, those units that are affordable to 50 percent, 40 percent, 30 percent area meaning income.

Uh this and also and also housing that is permanently or long-term affordable.

Um, and this isn't this isn't quite there.

Um so uh it I also have a little bit of heartburn over the fact that we only received one response to the request for proposal.

That being said, um I do believe that uh there are challenges for homeowners to be able to uh get loans to build accessory dwelling units in their backyards.

Um make it particularly easy and haven't for a long time.

I don't know if that's changing, but that's been the case for a while.

And two, so I basically I see a space for local government to step in and say, hey, we we can we can help uh bridge that gap.

Two, um, this isn't a grant, this is a loan.

Um, and we this is not a forgivable loan.

That's something you said you all might want to look into, but um that's not something that I necessarily support at this point.

So this money does come back over 30 years, the 30 year term to the city, right?

Right.

So this is a a low interest uh 2 percent rate uh loan, right?

So um so I did want to raise uh those issues, um, just that there is some heartburn, but that I do believe this is an objectively good thing that the city can step in and kind of fill this hole.

I would prefer that it weren't the city, I would prefer that banks are doing this, but they're not.

And so I do think that there is a role for for the city to play here.

Um I did want to raise that.

And I also just wanted to raise that at this point.

I do not support, I want to be on the record, I do not support that this uh become a forgivable loan at this point.

So I want to go on record there.

Um that is that is it for me.

Any of my colleagues have any other comments.

Thank you.

Yeah, go ahead.

Thank you, Councilmember Baker for your comments.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Yeah.

Um this is uh, as I mentioned in my opening comments, this is a model pilot program.

And let's be clear, I also should clarify I'm on the board of the Self Help Credit Union, which is a nationwide CDFI that makes affordable loans to people that wouldn't normally get a loan, provides banking products to folks that wouldn't normally get affordable banking products.

Even mission line developers like self-help cannot make this work, just to be honest with you.

No bank is making this kind of ADU lending product.

It doesn't exist.

And so what the city is doing is stepping in and providing some financing to make it work for the for the folks trying to do this.

The reason why we only had one applicant is like this is a real innovative thing.

We've got a great partner in Quorum Homes, but again, no bank is lending right now to this kind of product, no bank.

And so we're doing a I with the bound, it's exactly why we want to use the bond funds to do this, to do some innovative stuff to fill a market gap that's not being filled.

So I appreciate staff working through the details, and I appreciate our partners at Quorum Housing, and I look forward to these.

We're gonna learn from this pilot.

We talked about this in the work session.

But I look forward to working, learning and working with the city staff to make this work to actually like do a couple things, right?

We're creating affordable housing, but we're also building wealth for homeowners at the same time.

So if we can make this work, which I think we can, this is a model project.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Go ahead.

Just a question is there a stipulation in this agreement that the housing has to be affordable?

Yes.

So not just as a build, but also as a rental.

That that's the key to the program that the renters are 80 percent and below AMI.

So ultimately the outcomes are affordable rental units.

Up to 80 percent.

Yes.

And is there any additional funding made available if they're doing 60, 50, or 30 percent?

Not at this time.

Thank you.

Thank you for my colleagues.

Um I have a couple more questions.

I had asked some of these at the work session, and I just want to go back through uh the first one is how how are we going to ensure that these units get leased up?

I didn't feel like I got a good answer from this.

And my concern is that we see ADUs being used for Airbnbs and for short-term rentals.

Um I just I'm a bit confused on how we're gonna ensure that they are doing the things that we would like and that their housing people at 80 percent AMI or lower.

Thank you.

So um the project goes through permitting and design, construction, and completion.

At completion, we have a uh compliance department, compliance division that ensures that the units are rented to income eligible families.

What is the time frame on that?

What is the time frame on ensuring that they are leased up?

At completion, we will um we get information from the owner about who they're renting to.

They'll have to show that the family household that they're renting to is income eligible.

Once that's done, that information will be transmitted to our compliance division who will um approve that their family meets the guidelines to move into the unit.

Yeah, I want to follow up on two things.

First, how long do we plan until there is completion?

What is that timeline look like?

Generally it looks like um a year.

And so we give these loans out and for a year we are not able to do anything, and then after the year, we are dependent on the homeowner to give us who they're leasing it out to, and then we oversee how much their income is?

Uh let's say estimate a year for construction.

At construction completion, we'll get a certificate of occupancy.

The homeowner will do their outreach and they will tell us who they want to rent to.

We will verify the income eligibility of the of the new household, and we will approve that household to be moved in for that um homeowner to be in compliance with their loan agreement.

Is there a time frame in which people have to lease this their ADUs up?

Specifically so that the house doesn't sit vacant, so that the unit doesn't sit vacant.

I can't think of a specific time frame, but remember that the homeowner is paying on the construction costs.

So it behooves them to lease up as fast as they can.

We haven't made um any determination like our multifamily rental that they have a specific time to lease it up.

So I couldn't give you a specific time, but we would expect that it would be leased within 60 days normally after completion.

I mean it doesn't necessarily behoove them to lease it up as quickly as possible.

There are many reasons why you would not want to lease it up.

Um of them would be a sale of your land with an hugely added benefit on it, and another would be that if you were going to rent it out to like an Airbnb situation, that wouldn't be considered a lease, so they wouldn't necessarily have to get that approved.

So I do I just want to make sure that we are actually like following up, because it's already a year out and this is a lot of money that we're lending, and I just want to make sure that we are actually following up.

I just feel like um the details like feel really fuzzy to me.

Okay.

So if I if I understand you correctly.

The homeowner will have a loan agreement with the city that specifies how this loan keeps them in compliance with the objective of the program.

So they would not leave the unit vacant because if they did leave the unit vacant, they wouldn't be in compliance with the loan agreement.

In terms of the number of days, you know, I will I would say 60 days would be normal for a unit to be leased up because the homeowner would be incurring, you know, cost for a unit to be vacant.

Um if they did somehow rent it through an Airbnb, they would automatically not be in compliance with their loan agreement.

And what is the penalty for noncompliance?

They would be in default on that loan agreement.

And generally the loan would need to be repaid.

Immediately.

Yes.

Okay.

So they would.

I mean they'd have a cure period, but they would be in default.

Okay.

But I just I'm like, okay, so they are not in compliance if they don't lease up in a certain amount of time, but we're not giving them an amount of time.

So it's there's like a period where they might or might not be in compliance.

Sixty days, but maybe not.

Is that something we can get in details on?

So I I would I would say 60 days, and I would make sure that that would be clear in the loan agreement so that the units wouldn't sit vacant um in your example for extended period of time.

Okay.

That makes sense.

Yes.

Okay.

Is that something that we're adding to this that we're adding to this?

I think I think it's something that we'd make clear at this point.

Okay.

Um the next thing that I want to ask you about is that um you said in the work session that these would average about $80,000 to build.

Um and my concern is that uh I have not seen that that is actually the average for the ADUs that quorum is building, and so I was hoping you could address the disparity there.

So the eighty thousand dollars was the average of the subsidy per unit.

Quorum has indicated that they have an eighty thousand dollar model that they could build there by being able to build the unit without debt for any any specific homeowner.

It would be their smallest unit.

Sorry, so for if they don't get the eighty thousand model, um, then the homeowner subsidizes the remainder.

That's correct.

Okay.

So we we we do want to make sure that the homeer homeowner does put some equity into the deal and that folks that don't have the equity that's needed, we'd be able to help them a little more, and folks that can put more into the deal wouldn't need as much subsidy.

Okay.

Okay.

Thank you.

Sorry for like the detailed questions.

I know we went over it one time already.

I'm just it's a big amount.

It's a it's an awesome pilot, and I think that we all really want it to be successful.

And so I'm just like trying to make sure that it feels ready to go.

And I also am like like my colleague feeling a little bit leery that we only got one um response to our RFP.

I mean, I'm familiar with quorum and I know that they do good work in the community, so it's not a concern necessarily about that.

It's just um it's a large investment and I want it to be successful, I want us to be able to scale it up.

And so do I.

You know, one of the things, if if you allow me.

It's a pilot program.

So if it sounds like I don't have all the answers, it's because I don't have all the answers because it's a pilot program.

Uh and we want to make sure we hit the things that are important.

We want to make sure that the lessons that we learn help us to make a program better if we're gonna continue it, and um we're gonna give it our best shot.

And so how closely will y'all be working with Quorum to develop the actual procedural steps.

I know that they get to they are doing some design because some part of this amount is too quorum for design of the project.

And then some of it is the loan.

How closely will we all be working in terms of that design or very closely.

Very closely.

But because it's a pilot program, we have to kind of get on the same page between the city and quorum.

So we'll be working very closely with that.

Cool.

Thank you.

Thank you for answering all of my questions.

And I just want to say to you that I think that this is one good tool that we have in our toolbox.

And I just want to make sure that it is it's done well.

And also I want to recognize that there are a lot of barriers to home ownership.

And so I know we're talking about low-income homeowners, but there are a lot of barriers to homeownership.

And I I want to make sure that we're doing an equally diligent job of ensuring that our um home homeowners assistance program is actually back and working and accessible to folks who really need it and looking at ways for folks to actually be able to get into homeownership and have access to that type of wealth that folks already do have.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Just one quick question.

Am I hearing I think I heard an additional detail and I'm trying to make sure I heard it correctly.

Is Quorum serving as a like a contractor for the city or is Quorum operating as the contractor to build, or both.

The better answer is is both.

They're being hired as the administrator for the program to help families move through the process to build an ADU because it's you know they can't just buy a unit.

They have to go through design, permitting, talk to their bank, see how much equity they have, see how much they can bring to the deal.

And and get it built and deal with contractors.

So essentially this 1.7 million is to kind of run through quorum.

It doesn't run through multiple different contractors.

It runs through only quorum.

That's correct.

Okay.

Thank you.

I just wanted to say that I'm excited to support this item.

There was lots of questions at the work session.

I feel very comfortable.

I understand it's a pilot and we don't have everything answered.

That's the point.

I would also like to remind everyone, it's 1.75 of a 95 million and actually 160 million between the 95 million dollar bond referendum that we put in front of the voters in 2019 and the additional funds through the federal government.

So the housing program, which is for Ever Home Durham, is 160 million and actually more because we also put American Rescue Plan dollars behind some of the affordable housing projects.

Because of construction overruns during the pandemic when, well, and that really hasn't come down.

So I just want to remind folks that it's a very small percentage to run a pr pretty interesting pilot.

I also would like to remind folks that Quorum Holmes, the reason that he began this is because he built an ADU in his own backyard and he realized what a challenge it was and how hard it was.

And so that is the he's a I think a former Durham Public Schools teacher.

Um that's how we got into housing.

Uh he was just trying to be a good neighbor and provide housing and realized a huge gap that's out there for folks who want to be innovative and creative about how they're providing housing for their neighbors.

And so I just want to really want to highlight uh his track record and his commitment to Durham.

And finally, this was something we were supposed to kind of get off the ground in 2020.

So it's been five five years.

So I'm excited to say yes to this.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I appreciate Councilmember Caviero um sharing the background and insights.

I want to also add that quorum was also, or the owner of Quorum, I don't know if you're in the room, but I know that they were an active member in the SCAD um conversation and they were very actively pushing for us to move very quickly.

And so it's just alarming, and I just want to make sure that I put that on the record.

Thank you.

Thank you, colleagues, for your commentary.

Um you you answered a lot of good questions.

I think you're good.

Yeah, thank you so much.

Uh only in Durham.

Only in Durham where you you have a uh a teacher who tries to spend their time occupy with a hobby and build something in their backyard and it turns into an enterprise where you're able to build housing in your city for other people.

And I'm really appreciative of the work that's been done here because nobody else will bite and no bank would fund.

So the city is controlling the whole supply chain.

And we're doing it with a Durham, uh local Durmite.

And what thing we can say out of this is at the end of this program, there will be more people housed than there are now.

And uh components of the SCAD movement was very beneficial, and I'm excited to see this as one of those components, being able to house people.

At this time, I will um entertain a motion to authorize the city manager to execute a contract with Quorum Houses LLC for administration of the ADU loan palette in an amount not to exceed 1.75 million and to make non 1,750,000 and to make non-substantive changes and edits consistent with the city's contracting requirements prior to execution.

Moved is read.

Second.

It's been moved and probably seconded.

Madam Clerk, please open the vote.

Thank you.

Please close the vote.

The motion passes unanimously.

Thank you.

Where is it?

Oh, there it is.

All right.

Item uh our next item is item number eight.

We do have a lot of speakers here.

Twenty-two and twenty-four, twenty-five.

All right.

Uh with that being said, we will um start with our online speakers.

I will allot two minutes for speakers this evening.

But first, we have uh item number eight.

Um this is uh item number eight, which is uh approval of an ordinance revision to Chapter 10, Article 4 Housing Code, Section 10-241.

There has been a lot of commentary around this, and we um and colleagues, let me just say I appreciate I appreciate each and every last one of you uh for the work that we've done around this this ordinance.

Um we we've had a lot of one-offs, one-on-one meetings and conversations, all trying to uh get to the finish line on this.

Um I want to thank the community for uh the emails that have come through for the engagement and those who are showing up in the room tonight as well.

I I have not heard a single council member request something different uh and a different outcome.

Uh it's been more so uh just managing the multiple versions that have come from the attorney's office, from community members, from council members making adjustments.

So I I do believe there will be some changes to this tonight, just based on my individual conversations with you all.

Uh and we will try and get to an end.

But first, considering there is no staff report, uh I can go ahead and start with uh start with our speakers online, and then I'll go to in-person.

I will call names five names at a time for in-person, and then I'll bring it before the council for our deliberations, and then we'll move forward.

All right.

Yeah.

All right.

Do we have uh oh Sam?

Do we have Samuel Scarborough online?

Mr.

Mayor, Mr.

Scarborough is not in the queue.

All right.

Leslie St.

Dre.

Mr.

Mayor Leslie St.

Dre is also not in the queue.

Okay, Miss Adams, Stella Adams.

Yes, she is.

No, Ms.

Adams is going to show up.

Ms.

Adams, can you hear me?

Ms.

Stella?

You see her.

Hello, Council.

Can you hear me?

Could you get a little closer to the mic?

Um, can you hear me now?

Yep, there you go.

Welcome.

You have two minutes, Miss Stella.

Thank you.

Um, Mr.

Mayor, um, council members, Mayor Pro Tan, thank you for allowing me to speak.

My name is Stella Adams.

I'm a citizen of Durham.

I am so proud to support um this amendment to our um code um as it was put forward by thoughtful youth of our community um who did the research, did the job, and um put forward uh a proposition that really I'm surprised we hadn't already um implemented in Durham since it has been successfully utilized in um Charlotte and several other communities since 2007.

Um this will mean so much to a number of our families in Durham who are living in substandard um housing and being charged full rate for um for um substandard case.

I have seen and experienced as a housing advocate.

I have witnessed um conditions where there were holes in the floor in the what were the former Brasswell apartments.

There there wasn't an even a floor.

Yet people were paying um market rate.

Well, they were paying you know out of their pocket without subsidy um to live in those conditions.

And when they were forced evicted, they um you know had no way of recovering uh of defending the eviction and recovering their um getting abatement because of the poor condition.

So thank you, Miss Stella.

Support this.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Next we will um just one more time.

Do you see uh Samuel Scarborough or Leslie St.

Dre?

No, Mr.

Mayor.

All right, sounds good.

We'll now move to uh in-person speakers, and I will call uh five at a time.

Italo Medellis, Cynthia Hoskins, Regina Mays, Brenda Solomon, and C.R.

Clark.

You could just cue right here in line behind the uh.

And if I called your name, uh just go ahead and come on up.

Uh again, Italo, Cynthia Hoskins, Regina Mays, Brenda Solomon, and C.R.

Clark.

Thank you.

All right.

Thank you, everybody.

Mayor Mayor Bertham, City Council, Idola Medelius, uh, General Counsel for the North Carolina Tenants Union.

Uh so first of all, I would like to, before doing anything, thank the Riverside High School Affordable Housing Club.

I don't know if they're here, but yes, round of applause.

Without them spearheading this, we would not be here today.

So that's a beautiful thing.

Uh secondly, uh, I would also like to say that we don't need to go deeply into the law today.

We've been doing this for two work sessions, but I also want to say this is not a symbolic resolution.

This is a very, very real thing.

Uh enforcement.

We talk about non-enforcement.

Sure, the city's not gonna enforce it, but the people are through a private right of action.

It's very enforceable.

You've heard uh from other attorneys in Charlotte here, and we can't enforce it through the people, even though it doesn't come through the municipality.

Secondly, deterrence is an operative part of the law.

It's not something to minimize, right?

Uh if you go down to my alma mater, North Carolina Central University School of Law, take a criminal law class over there in statutory development, you will see, right?

Deterrence is a very, very, very operative part of the law.

And when it comes to amendments, we would prefer as a North Carolina tenants union for this ordinance to be adopted as is, as introduced by Councilmember Chelsea Cook.

Now we also understand that there are some issues with the Danzi decision.

Uh even though it doesn't have any precedential value, it does have some issues when you know people try and attack the ordinance.

And these are very, very minor amendments that we put in our original memo uh in response to the original city attorney's memo in section 4C, which gives three different ways uh to amend the resolution to add a notice requirement, to add a knowledge requirement, and to add an opportunity to cure.

Those would be not changed the resolution to the ordinance substantially, and we believe that will protect us from legal issues.

So thank you very much.

Hope we can get adopted.

Thank you.

All right, you all almost made me clap as well, but I'm just it's gonna take a long time, so you will just please hold your applause to the end.

That'll be very helpful to get through tonight.

My name is Cynthia Hospital's.

Good evening, Mayor, City Councilman.

I'm a resident at Willard Street, and we've had so many complaints, so many maintenance problems, so many retaliations.

DHIC took them down, said I was not to put them up.

I've been trying to have meetings for our community in the building, but the people are so scared to come out.

They're scared of retaliation, and they will tallyate against them.

I've seen it already.

It's already started.

And a lot of people that that's with me.

One lady has been in the emergency room for over five years.

These are all her most of some of her papers.

I have three envelopes of everything that they have done to me since I've been there.

And I moved in July the 1st, 2021, and I'm still having problems there.

Our maintenance does not clean.

He does not do recycle.

He does not do light bulbs.

He does not do carpet, and he does not clean elevators.

So we have to live in that area ourselves.

If we don't, if they don't clean it, we got to clean it.

We shouldn't have to clean our own building that we live in.

Everybody that's with me is from Willard Street, and everyone has a lot of, a lot of, a lot of problems that we are trying to get fixed.

I just want everything to be safe, clean, and people live in a better condition than they were living in now.

If y'all come and look at that building, you'll see.

Thank you so much.

Thank you and have a good day.

You too.

Next, Ms.

Mays.

Good afternoon, Mayor.

City Council.

Um I want to speak on these landlords.

Um I don't understand why they still are getting paid, and we're living in crappy places.

I have black stuff coming up through my carpet.

Housing authority is not doing nothing about it.

The city came out, they're not doing nothing about it.

I have a refrigerator I haven't been able to use in a year.

So now I'm getting ready to get evicted because I didn't pay him.

I took his money, my rent, and had to buy me a freezer.

I had to buy me a little refrigerator for my um insular.

So I don't understand why I'm getting evicted.

And they're failing him.

You know, the housing authority not paying them.

And like I said, I don't understand it.

He walked in on me last week while I was taking a shower.

He feel like he had the Eva.

He said that's his property.

So, you know, I was like, can you at least wait till I get dressed before you bring somebody in here to do some work?

You know, I I I just don't understand what's going on while we are not being more protected as tenants.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I'll ask again if we could just hold our applause so we can get the speakers through.

Uh Ms.

May, um, what was that?

Are you Ms.

Solomon?

Okay, thank you.

All right, Miss Mace.

Regina Mays, Durham Resident.

Um, Mayor May approach him.

Oh, City Council, good evening.

Um I wanted to come behind Ms.

Solomon because I've been working with her approximately for the last month.

I got a call from another resident as we do in this community.

We pull together, we call each other when we have nobody else to call.

And to find out that Ms.

Solomon has actually had a fire in her housing due to fossil wiring.

But she still had to pay rent.

It disturbs me.

And she's one in a million.

You know, I thought about this afternoon, and as as I was thinking about what I would speak upon and how I wanted to address this matter.

I thought about a resident that I heard about maybe around 2019-2020 that actually passed away after reporting multiple um mode and other concerns in her apartment with doctor's documentation as a maintenance personnel.

Told her, just sit on your porch for a while.

I bleached the walls and everything down.

And this resident died.

Again, as I spoke recently on a Thursday meeting, where's the prevention?

This is your chance to vote and create that prevention.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um I have.

Next up, I have C.R.

Clark, and I'm gonna go ahead and call the rest of the names.

Umilo Graber, Susanna Carvalho, Peter Gilbert, Durant Long.

Welcome.

State your name, and you have two minutes.

Hi, my name is Milo Graber.

I'm a senior at Riverside High School as well as the founder and leader of our Affordable Housing Club.

Uh I'm going to speak in favor of this ordinance.

Affordable housing, as we all know, is a major issue in Durham and affects a lot of people, including a lot of DPS students.

Um a lot of students live in unsafe housing, uh unhealthy conditions, and are living in fear of getting evicted due to being charged uh such high levels of rent.

Um they can be forced to be evicted, and that's very disruptive, especially when they are forced to uh move school districts because they have to find housing in a different area.

Uh passing this ordinance would do a lot to help a lot of residents, including students, by encouraging landlords to maintain housing.

So that would make housing a lot healthier and less dangerous to residents.

Uh it would give tenants more power in negotiations with landlords uh when getting evicted or trying to negotiate, having to pay less rent because they can't afford it that month.

It would give them more tools to defend themselves in court when they're being evicted.

And we should pass it.

Uh even if we're worried about sometime in the future, the state potentially trying to uh preempt it, or uh slum lords trying to sue the city for having this ordinance because we shouldn't be afraid to do a good thing just because we think some point in the future we may lose that power.

We should just do the good thing because we think it's good policy, and we believe that it is the right thing to do.

Uh further, this ordinance already exists in three other cities in North Carolina.

Uh Charlotte, uh, and Pineville are two of them.

Uh that indicates that the City of Durham can pass this and should pass this.

I think that also indicates that we should pass it in the form proposed by Councillor Cook, because that is the form that was uh is used in those other cities.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Milo.

Milo.

Look around.

This is your fault.

Good job.

Thank you, Milo.

Good job, buddy.

And I I took that personal privilege because so often our young people just don't get engaged.

We'll do the work and figure it out.

But I want you to be encouraged.

You brought the community together to do something powerful.

And we'll get there.

We'll figure it out.

But this is your fault.

And you and your friends, good job.

Good job.

All right.

Back to no more applauses.

She got a clap for Milo.

Um I had a CR Clark.

Was there CR Clark?

That was an issue.

It should be green.

Are you CR Clark?

No.

Oh.

Okay.

All right.

Well, come on up.

And uh are you Susannah?

All right.

Come on, Susanna.

Welcome.

You have two minutes.

Thank you.

Honorable Mr.

Mayor and City Council.

My name is Susanna.

I am a medical doctor with 14 years of practicing pediatric emergency realm and unemployed in River.

Recently I became a U.S.

citizen from Durham, and I am thankful for finishing my immigration process.

But I still share feelings of grief, hurt, and hope for justice.

My feeling of the belonging is certainly stronger with the right to vote, but I still need to have my other civil and constitutional rights granted.

Tonight I bought before my neighbors and my leaders to express my support to tenants' rights and share my own first rental experience in Durham in the United States and in the United States.

Before moving to Durham four years ago, I was promised a recently renovated second floor unit at the forest and received a first floor abandoned unit when I got here after driving 827 miles from Miami, from where I came full of hope for a new and safer life.

In May 2021, 2301 White Pine Drive was an inhospitable address.

And the manager was aware of it before I signed the contract.

There was mold in the cabinets, the paint was in the carpet were old, moldy and dirty.

The AC didn't work.

There were many spider webs and that bugs on the floor.

The manager agreed to cancel the contract with no penalty, but has never given back the money to me.

And it wasn't just a matter of money, but also the impact such immorality could cause to my health and caused among my new neighbors.

The latest response from Basmian Residential is that the property was sold and they haven't resolved the problem.

Thank you.

All right.

So just make sure, Susan.

Oh, Susanna, okay.

Peter?

You, Peter?

Okay.

Good evening.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor, members of the Council.

My name is Peter Gilbert.

I'm the litigation director of the North Carolina Justice Center.

I was formerly the director of the Durham Eviction Diversion Program, which I helped found with this council and cities support in 2017.

I went on to then direct the statewide eviction diversion program for legal aid of North Carolina.

So I'm very familiar with how successful this ordinance has been, where in Charlotte we've used it for more than 15 years, and it's been one of the most effective tools that we've had, where it has never been challenged, and it's been one of the most effective tools that we've had to force landlords to live up to their duty to provide fit and habitable homes.

I've been in so many terrible homes that you become dull to it.

I've seen so many homes without heat, with leaking roofs, with roaches, with holes in the floor, everything you've heard about tonight.

She was a lawyer from Palestine.

She was getting her LLM at Duke.

And it was her first time in one of these homes in Durham.

We were doing the investigation, and she was shocked.

She was shocked that people in the wealthiest country in the world were living in conditions like this.

She was astonished.

And not only that they were living there, but they were paying exorbitant rents to do so.

The problem is that with the lack of affordable housing in Durham, landlords have very little financial incentive to fix anything.

Tenants are afraid to call the city.

They're afraid to make complaints, even when we represent them.

This ordinance is the most powerful tool that we have to help uh ensure that tenants can live somewhere that is safe.

It has two other benefits that I want to bring up briefly that I expect will happen as a result of this ordinance.

One, as you may know, single family homes are the ones that tend to be the most dilapidated, and they're also the targets of the investment companies like Cerberus that buy up, they actually call their company Cerberus, that buy up single family homes like this and take them off the market for homeowners in Durham.

Hopefully, this ordinance will make it a little bit less attractive for them to buy up these dilapidated homes, do minimal surface level repairs, and then charge exorbitant rents.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Hello.

It's me again, Barbara Lance.

Oh I was developing.

I'm here to speak about this.

I pray I don't go over my time.

I'm gonna I ain't even gonna read it.

But I emailed your office last year, right before the DHA board meeting, before they installed a new person for budgeting and all that, and they just loved them because he knew about financing and housing and all of this stuff.

But I'm here today to speak.

I know Peter Gilbert because he helped with Don Testrabino and myself.

We did a whole lot of stop evictions during behind DHA and their fraudulent stealing of money.

Thank you, sir, for giving them the 1.2 million to solve that problem.

But guess what?

They're picking and choosing who they're going to help.

You have to qualify.

But I know I was in that, and I came down here to see you about it because the manager at development again called me and told me she's gonna throw me out for what when the bill was paid, correct?

Yeah.

And we do live in substandard housing because we're one step from homeless.

Yeah, so oh mom.

Two minutes isn't up.

But anyway, I was going to read the email I sent you, and I got in contact with the person, and they hit me back, and I went to that meeting.

I saw the director, her name is Ashanti, I think.

I got her number and everything, and then the young lady was at the meeting who tried to lie to tell me that it was just a graduation and it wasn't.

Yeah, I found out.

The director came in and said you can speak.

She actually allowed me to speak.

No one from the mayor's office came to that meeting, but I did, and it was recorded.

I post everything on my Facebook page.

Miss B speaks barber lines or Facebook.

Find me.

Inform yourself.

Get whatever you need from there.

I've been threatened.

I've been called all kinds of names.

My wife is being threatened.

That's posted as well, too.

I'm being called a racist.

For what?

I speak the truth, okay?

But anyway, I'm here to talk about this today.

Once you solve a problem, you come to your mayor or your constituents to solve a problem, it's supposed to be solved.

You did that for us.

But DHA is telling me and several other residents you don't qualify.

Either because they don't like you, or you don't count, or you're not family, or whatever.

This is fraudulent.

I am about to start legal proceedings.

I'm sick of this.

My son is in the military right now, not getting paid.

I'm going to finish this.

He's the city, he's a he's celebrating this.

This he's fighting for this country right now.

He's not getting paid, but he had to pay $5,000 to fix my broken seat because of DHA.

Can you please fix this for me?

I don't owe them anything.

They owe me.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

I have a good night.

All right.

I have uh Durant Long, Chris Perrstein, Amanda Wallace, Donna Batista.

Um Durant, you're next.

Good evening, y'all.

My name is Durant Long.

I'm just a concerned citizen, and I want to speak before the council and say that you know there's been talk of defiance tonight and in uh society and a time where it feels like the judicial system serves one and one and one specific group of upper class people more.

It's ref it's refreshing to see some semblance of equity being put forward and maybe giving average citizens a chance to have some sort of justice, some sort of fairness.

So I just want to say that this is a great first step.

And thank you all very much.

I appreciate it.

Thank you.

State your name for me.

Okay, gotcha.

You can adjust that, Mike.

There you go.

Thank you.

Uh good evening, Mayor and City Council members.

My name is Brianda Barrera.

I am a Durham renter.

I'm a member of the Triangle Tenant Union, and I'm a public health professional.

I'm here to urge you to vote in favor of the proposed ordinance tonight.

This ordinance would be a critical step toward justice, health, and dignity for the people of our beloved city.

This ordinant is a shield for the most vulnerable members of our community.

It's for our elderly neighbors living with black mold who are afraid to complain for fear of retaliation from landlords who only view them as an obstacle to profits.

It's for our undocumented neighbors enduring severe pest infestations because their landlord counts on their silence.

This ordinance gives us a tool to fight back and to live with the basic dignity that everyone deserves.

In my public health career, I've learned two very fundamental things.

I've learned first that housing is health care, and second, that housing and health care are human rights.

The quality of our housing is one of the single most important social determinants of health.

A person cannot manage their diabetes in a home with no running water.

A child cannot overcome asthma in an apartment plagued with black mold.

And no one can heal when they're shivering in the cold due to having no heat in the winter.

This ordinance directly addresses these health crises.

By defining what makes a home imminently dangerous to health and safety, it draws a clear line.

It states that when landlords fail to provide these basic protections, they cannot profit from the suffering that they are imposing on their tenants.

It empowers tenants to protect their hard-earned money and to hold negligent landlords accountable.

Failing to adopt this ordinance perpetuates a cycle of carnic stress, mental health crises, and preventable diseases.

This ordinance is a proactive and preventative measure to ensure that landlords maintain adequate living conditions.

So my ask for you is clear.

Support this ordinance.

Send a message to Durham Renters that you agree.

No one should be forced to pay for a home that makes them chronically sick or puts them in imminent danger.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Hello, my name is Amanda Wallace, and I'm taking a breath right now because it's so frustrating when you have to come in here and talk to people who think they have more power than the people to make these decisions.

And so this should be a no-brainer, right?

It should be a no-brainer.

Slum lords, they come to this city or they're in this city, and they are not taking care of properties, and then people should not have to pay to live in those places, right?

It should be a no-brainer.

Two other cities in North Carolina have passed this ordinance, and you've heard that it is work for people.

Again, it should be a no-brainer.

But you say that you don't want to pass this because it's symbolic or it's performative.

This whole thing is performative.

This whole thing tonight is performative.

When you chose to put on your bow tie, you performing tonight, right?

This is a performance.

And so my question is: when will the people stop believing in them?

We are currently in the middle of an election, and it is like destined that this is coming up right now because this is about values.

This is about values.

Do we value people or do we value profit?

I know what you value.

And if we keep looking at housing, right, as a commodity and not as a right in our in our city, this is gonna continue to be an issue.

How many people got to come sit up here and tell you how how bad they are living for you to do something?

For you to you and you on the campaign trails, uh Mark Anthony Middleton.

You keep talking about Walltown and these places that um no, what's what's the uh the apartment complex that they just said?

Willard Street.

You keep talking about Willis Street like it's the best thing.

What you gonna say now?

Stop lying.

Stop lying.

You too, Leo Williams.

You're lying.

And I hope that this is one of the last meetings for y'all.

Thank you.

Welcome.

City Council members, um, I'm Chris Perlstein.

Um I actually do like the bow tie, but you know I just have no sense of style, so you might want to take that with a grain of salt.

Um, I'm supportive of an ordinance of this type.

Um, tenant safety issues are real.

Naturally occurring affordable housing is the most likely to have habitability issues like this with what this ordinance covers.

This is a problem with an aging housing stock and a housing shortage that disproportionately impacts the least privileged of our community.

This is why we especially need new affordable housing, whether built by the market or supported by efforts like the previously passed affordable housing bond, expanding housing choices or the thing that you just passed today, maybe that's gonna work, the quorum housing um ADUs.

That would be great.

Um a stronger uh tenant protection ordinance is an important complimentary piece of this puzzle to ensure existing tenants and existing housing are more protected.

These folks deserve options outside of staying in legally uninhabitable housing caused by negligent landlords with issues this important considering limitations of your legal powers in the state.

We have to work together to find a solution that's going to actually protect these folks.

Whether it's by city supervised repairs, ensuring habitability, or protections tenants can use in court.

If that's this proposal, then all of you should support it.

This shouldn't be a divisive election time issue.

This should be about how best to address an issue that impacts our most vulnerable neighbors.

They need it.

Thank you.

Um I've seen, but you don't have Peter Whitehead, Nico Jordan.

I just have Vincent.

And Nicole.

Welcome.

Good evening, elected rulers of Durham and fellow Durhamites.

My name is Donna Batista, and I live at JFK Towers.

I sure wish I had brought the pictures I emailed you guys to the work sessions because you'd have been impressed or depressed, or both.

Anyway, I've spoken at the last two sessions.

I'm not going to talk about JFK other than to mention the number one issue is there's no electronic connection between a seven-story apartment building with 175 units.

There's no connection with us and the fire department just down the road.

It's been that way since I moved there three and a half years ago.

I'm the one that had mushrooms growing behind my sink.

A number of us have had raw sewage come up, various apartments, various floors.

Very regular.

It's coming up through the kitchen sink, the bathroom sink, and the bathtubs.

It's pretty disgusting.

Tonight I'm not speaking for myself or for JFK.

I'm speaking on the behalf of Durham Cannes.

It's an organization I am proud to say I've been involved in through my church for many years.

As part of this work with CAN, in the spring I facilitated listening sessions with Durham Housing Authority residents.

Maintenance problems came up over and over and over again.

One person I spoke with said his refrigerator didn't work, and he has to go every day to the store to buy ice just so he can have food that he can eat.

Can you hear me?

Somebody cut me off.

Can you hear me now?

All right.

That's a more second.

All right.

When it comes to deeply affordable housing, there's no such thing as having extra money to fix something.

You know, some of us already got our food stamps cut.

My food stamps were cut $50 starting in October.

I found out about it the end of September.

There's no such thing as extra income.

Yesterday it okay, let me just say one final thing.

We're listening to you, and we really hope you're listening to us.

We've got to have some changes here, and it's very doable.

Thank you all.

Thank you.

Welcome.

Welcome.

Good evening, Mayor, Mayor Pro Tem, and Council members.

My name is Emily Wilkes, and I'm the associate pastor for Public Witness at Trinity Avenue Presbyterian Church.

And I'm speaking today as a member of the Affordable Housing Research Action Team with Durham Cannes.

In the spring, Durham Cannes conducted a listening campaign of over 2,000 residents of Durham.

And affordable housing was the number one issue that our members raised.

Ensuring that the affordable housing that already exists is safe and dignifying is equally as important as building more deeply affordable units for low-income and working families.

In our listening sessions with Durham Housing Authority tenants, we heard stories that any faith community with a rent assistance ministry knows all too well.

Homes infested with roaches and bed bugs, rotted floors and ceilings, exposed wire, unsafe structures, and fear.

Fear of speaking up, fear of retaliation, fear of losing the only home that they have.

In my tradition, Jesus tells us, whatever you do to the least of these, you do to me.

And that means that the housing conditions our most vulnerable neighbors endure are the conditions we are subjecting Christ himself to.

So to be clear, when our most vulnerable neighbors are living in these conditions, it is not just neglect, it is sacrilege.

It's a moral failure.

And the way that we house the poor is the way that we house Christ himself.

And right now Christ is living with roaches and bed bugs.

Christ is dying waiting for repairs, and Christ is being crucified and still expected to pay rent.

This ordinance matters to communities of faith.

Please pay attention and bear witness to the stories before you tonight, so that Durham can be a city where or where even, or perhaps especially where the least of these can be protected.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I just it makes it just seems common sense.

If they do it in Charlotte, you know, uh some of you own restaurants, I'd never pay for a meal that had bet bugs in it.

You'd never pay for someone to, you know, you'd never pay the dry cleaner for one of your suits if they didn't clean it.

So it seems that if someone has housing that has bugs in it is not livable, there's no reason to pay for that service, and they should be allowed to withhold rent.

Thank you.

Hello, my name is Nico Jordan.

I'm a senior in the Affordable Housing Club at Riverside High School.

I'm here to speak in favor of the ordinance.

Um I'm in here to say, sorry, I'm here to speak in favor of item eight, the tenant protection ordinance.

This ordinance should be passed in its current form.

Uh as it's a simple way that we can help keep Durham families in their homes and would help ensure families and students have uh livable housing.

Uh thank you for your time.

So it's your fault too.

Good work.

My name is Nicole Droplook.

I'm a resident in East Durham.

I'm a behavior health technician and member of the party for socialism and liberation.

I'm asking this council to stand with the people of Durham, not slum lords and predatory developers by voting yes on tonight's ordinance as it is as it stands without any edits.

At my apartment complex, my neighbors and I have endured weeks without air conditioning and peak summer heat, flood damage, bug infestations, and broken security pads.

When my AC failed this summer, it was over 80 degrees inside my home for weeks, even after repeated calls and emails.

Property management dragged their feet.

A technician said the system needed replacing, but management closed the ticket with no solution or repair, and still it really hasn't been fixed.

It kind of just like went on on its own.

I think about my immigrant and Spanish speaking neighbors who face the same neglect or worse but may stay silent out of fear or retaliation.

Why should tenants pay rent when landlords fail to provide livable and safe conditions?

There's countless horror stories of Durham within Durham housing.

Through community outreach, I've met countless Durham residents with mold, pests, broken doors, collapsing roofs, and are facing eviction.

This ordinance gives people a real pathway to demand safe and signified housing.

The people who keep this running, the people who keep this city running deserve so much better.

This ordinance is the bare minimum, but it's a crucial step towards housing justice.

Be bold, vote yes on this ordinance, but please do not stop there.

Durham is in a housing crisis.

Reject predatory developers, hold the DHA accountable, and fund truly affordable housing.

Good evening, Mr.

Mayor.

Um Mr.

Mayor Pro Temp City Council, and I'd like to applaud all of you out there for being here tonight supporting and speaking up because silence is consent when you don't say anything.

And this ordinance is very important.

My name is Vincent Lawrence, and I'm a resident at the module property of Willich Street Apartments, one of Durham's worst kept secrets.

I have been there since they cut the ribbon from day one.

They have been over close to two dozen in management in succession in and out of the door.

They have been using skeleton staffing to run the building.

They are trying to run Willich Street apartments and Ashton Place apartments with one apartment community manager taking care of two buildings and one assistant and a maintenance person who is not a master technician who can only do basic work.

I have been without heat now for one week, not due due to their negligence.

Because they found out when the worker came in, they did come in to follow up promptly.

And I when you do stuff right, I applaud you.

You know, so some things are done right, but a lot of things are done wrong.

And it seems like city and state can have shadow governments within themselves.

Because DHI, Durham Housing Improvement, they are you can call them to go surpass your management, not disrespecting management, but you're not getting the results needed.

They don't return your calls.

I have I have attempted to speak with the vice president and the RPM.

And they have not even called.

I've left messages.

And they have not, they didn't even call me back today.

And I am a senior and disabled.

Thank you so much.

And I this is not right.

It's not it's unfair.

And you all need to support this because this will give a voice to us.

Next.

And Barbara Lyons.

Sorry, I'd I know you will, but no, don't go to Newcrew Buildings and Ms.

Lions, you have not changed since I've met you back in 2006.

Good evening, Victor Urkeza.

Um I'm a current tenant at Juniper Square Apartments in East Durham near the village.

So you already know the conditions there.

Um this is a small and poorly managed apartment complex.

If I had to guess, I would say that 80 to 9% of the residents there are immigrant families, majority Spanish speaking.

Many of these neighbors have multiple families living in one apartment to simply afford rent and skyrocketing cost of living.

Landlords take advantage of these communities because it because of the lack of language access and the fact that many of these tenants are new to this country.

These apartments offer no amenities, no clubhouse, no gym, no pool, no leasing office on site, and not even a playground for the kids to play on.

Yet we are expected to pay our rent on time every single month or risk eviction, even when there are consistent power outages, the AC is not working during the summer, and maintenance has not come to fix leaks or bug infestations.

Tenants are treated as objects for profit and not as human beings.

Tenants are criminalized and surveilled, not protected and defended.

Not only are immigrant neighbors facing rising rents, inadequate housing conditions, and exploitative landlords, but the threat of Ice Terror is ever more present in our communities.

But this crisis is not just in Juniper Square or Duke Manor or McDougall.

It's a crisis facing thousands of people in Durham, in our state, and our country.

All tenants, all tenants, regardless of their citizens or not, deserve safe and truly affordable housing.

We support this ordinance because it gives power back to the tenants in a system that consistently puts profit over people.

We demand that city council pass this ordinance tonight and not postpone any longer.

Housing is a human right.

Thank you so much.

Good evening to my community.

My name is Mickey.

I am a proud organizer with the Party for Socialism and Liberation here in Durham.

I'm here, of course, to support this ordinance tonight and demand its swift passage without edits.

Um but for real, this is really just the bare minimum.

Nobody should be collecting rent for you know uninhabitable conditions.

And I cannot wait to see these landlords sweat.

I don't know about y'all.

But again, like this is the bare minimum.

This is the first step.

Next, we got to abolish landlords altogether.

We we shouldn't be living in a system where you know these people up on a council or on a board can make these decisions for us.

We should be making these decisions for ourselves.

So I really want to urge everybody, you know, shout out to the students, to the organizers, to everybody that came out to support this tonight.

Make sure that the people's voices were heard.

I want to urge y'all to continue this organizing, continue this good work, keep it up because Durham needs it.

And you know, we can build the future that we deserve where we actually make these decisions for ourselves and the working class holds the power.

Thank you.

Hello, my name is Alex Trejo.

I'm a child of East Durham.

And I want to say that this tenant protection ordinance is just the first step, just like Mickey was saying.

But it's a necessary one.

As it stands right now, without any amendments, it would finally give tenants the right to say, he won't fix my home, you don't get my rent.

That's the kind of protection and power working class people in Durham have needed for years.

It's not radical, it's common sense.

But while this ordinance addresses the conditions we live in, it doesn't yet touch the system that creates those conditions.

Because the truth is the housing crisis in Durham isn't an accident.

It's a product of greed.

It's Duke University, the largest landlord in our city, hoarding land and wealth while paying almost nothing in taxes.

It's a Durham Housing Authority, failing to meet its units, overcharging residents, and pushing families into debt.

It's developers who buy up whole neighborhoods, jack up rents, and call it revitalization.

We're told to be grateful for every new development, every promise of quote unquote affordable housing.

But we know those promises don't include us.

They include profit margins.

So yes, this ordinance matters.

It's a start, but we're not here for small fixes to a broken machine.

We're here because we need a system that actually works, one built by and for the people who live here, not one that serves landlords, developers, and universities.

We need a Durham where no one has to beg for dignity, where housing is a right, and where power truly rests with the people, not with the representatives who only represent profit.

Because this city belongs to us, and together, we're going to make sure it stays that way.

Thank you.

Welcome.

What's your name?

Paola.

Okay, thank you.

All right.

After I have uh Anthony Snail, Jordan Forrest, Strully, Jackie Wagsaff, Anjana Bell.

One, two, three, four.

And Cynthia Williams.

You may continue.

Um, my name is Paola La Vila.

I am a Durham resident, and I do urge you to support the tenants' protection ordinance.

It is unethical and irresponsible to allow landlords to collect rent on properties with dangerous conditions.

These conditions impact the health and well-being of tenants, bringing further challenges to our day, which I feel like we already are facing enough.

So in making this decision tonight, which I hope it is tonight, I encourage you to pause and reflect on who you are really serving and the communities you are choosing to abandon and the city you are failing to serve.

When landlords neglect families from receiving their basic needs, it is your duty to hold them accountable and protect our community.

During these times, we no longer accept silence.

This decision, again, tonight, will tell the people of Durham what your values are and if you are for the people or not.

I urge you to prioritize affordable housing and the living conditions of tenants that deserve to live with dignity and respect.

This is the responsible, conscious way to protect the health and well-being of taxpayers that allow you and your family to live in a home with water, heater, no pass infestation or mold, and many more commodities.

It is only fair that the Durham residents receive equitable access to the same opportunities that you have every single day.

And with all due respect, you should be ashamed of saying that it's his fault or any students' fault.

This is the fault of a system that is failing the youth that is failing our communities.

Well, that was an interesting spin, but students, I hope you know what I mean.

Next.

Good evening.

Um my name is Jordan Forrest Strawley.

I serve as the government affairs director for the Durham Regional Association of Realtors.

We represent more than a thousand real estate professionals in our community who are committed to safe, fair, and stable housing.

We appreciate and share the city's commitment to ensuring that every resident has access to a safe and livable home.

The city has already established clear protections to ensure that sit that tenants are not subjected to unsafe living conditions.

It seems those aren't being enforced at this time.

And we understand and applaud the efforts that offer tenant protections, but this ordinate as written does not accomplish that.

Instead, this will further burden city staff and landlords that strive to be accountable with duplicative language.

Furthermore, this council continues to increase enforcement measures but has not provided further staffing resources.

Other cities have enacted similar language that have not been enforced or tested it, and resulting in unsubstantiated use case.

Tenant protection sh sh could include adding clearer definitions of dangerous housing conditions, expanding emergency repair tools, or developing education efforts that empower tenants to exercise the rights that they have under state law.

Let me be clear.

Thank you for your time and for your continued attention to housing safety in Durham.

Thank you.

I'll ask that we please be respectful.

Please.

Ms.

Williams, you want to go ahead?

Okay, that's fine.

Okay.

Good evening, Council Members, Mayor Leonardo Williams and neighbors.

Respond meaningfully to renters' pleas for help, mold rodents, broken heat.

These aren't minor annoyances.

They're threats to health and dignity, and they're happening in Durham today.

We understand the city attorney's concerns, but let's be clear.

Durham already has housing codes on the books, and they are not working.

Renters are living with mold, infestations, and broken heat, and too often the enforcement mechanisms in place fail to protect them.

This ordinance may not be perfect, but it's a necessary signal that the city will no longer look away when homes become uninhabitable.

Councilmember Chelsea Cook's leadership is courageous.

She's not ignoring legal risks.

She's refusing to ignore human ones.

Nearly half of Durham households, that is 49%, are renters.

That's how many people this ordinance could help in a worst-case situation.

The scale of need is too large to dismiss.

If this passes, please pair the ordinance with tenant education and legal support.

But if this ordinance vote fails tonight, we ask that you commit to a real resolution.

Do not kick the can down the road.

Doing nothing is neutral, isn't neutral, is siding with neglect.

The coalition stands with the students, the renters, and every Durham resident who believes housing should heal, not harm.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Good evening, Mayor and members of the City Council.

My name is Anthony Snell.

I am the interim CEO of Durham Housing Authority.

As you well know, DHA is the owner of roughly 1,900 units of affordable housing in the City of Durham, with an additional 1,000 plus units under development.

We fervently are, we are fervently committed to providing decent, safe and affordable housing to the residents, to our residents and the citizens of Durham.

As a federally funded entity, we must follow the federal mandate to collect rent from our residents.

Not doing so violates the law and compromises the viability and security of our properties.

We believe there are already adequate city and state measures and safeguards in place to ensure the quality of housing that we provide.

These include the city's inspection system, HUD housing quality standards inspections, and our housing for our housing choice voucher program and our project-based rental assistance units.

There is a rental abatement regulation under our housing choice voucher program.

As the owner of a portfolio of assets that are older and reaching their useful life, we are uniquely challenged to maintain these assets.

Our funding sources are structurally inadequate and diminishing annually.

We are committed to maintaining this housing stock and replacing it as quickly as possible.

We are in the midst of a very large program for our public housing.

We have secured an additional 10 million dollars to make those corrections.

No, we we will not be rude.

I just cannot do that.

There is no way in the world that we come together as a community to address an issue for our tenants, and only let one side speak.

This is your house.

This is the people's house.

So please be respectful.

Thank you.

Next speaker.

Thank you.

Jackie Wagstaff, Ajana Bell.

Are you ready?

And Elizabeth Aron.

Next.

Can I ask one thing?

Could you turn the air down?

I think you're trying to freeze us out.

Um I'm here tonight in support of the ordinance as it is written by Councilwoman Clubs.

But I'm also here to give you a little history lesson.

Back in the 90s, when I sat on this diocese, we experienced the same problem.

We were, I know about Juniper Square.

I think uh real estate and associates and Joe Journan, and they still run that property.

So we we know about this, and we've had these discussions.

I wish we had this ordinance on the books when we were fighting for these things to change in these apartments and these rental properties.

Um I remember when these stories I'm hearing about how these properties, the conditions, I remember calling all out inspections sitting on this diocese, and we had every person that we had in our housing department go out and inspect these deplorable units, and we found so many violations.

I know that the gang of four doesn't have the courage to do that, and the gang of three can't do it.

But it makes no sense that these residents have to pay market rent to live in your landfill dumps.

Because that's what they are.

I just believe that tonight that four of you are gonna try to play games with this ordinance.

And I'm gonna stand by that.

I think you're gonna try to word press it.

I think you're gonna try to take some stuff out to make sure that the landlords are covered.

But I know right now on Ridgway Avenue, there is a structure, has no lights, no waters, family are living in them, in them, and there is a landlord collecting rent from these residents.

You need to go check that out.

But there's a lot of other things I can discuss, but right now I just know that there's a gang of four up here that is gonna vote either for this, thank you the way you want it or against this the way they want it.

But you know, there's an election, go to the polls and vote them out.

Thank you.

Good evening, Mr.

Mayor and Council members.

My name is Anjoné Bell.

As a proud member of North Carolina Central University, I also want to extend my sincere congratulations to the NCCU tennis team on their recent success.

I also want to say that I support much of what has been shared by the speakers tonight.

Why am I here?

Tonight as one who serves and prioritizes people and purpose over profit.

I'm standing in full support of the tenants' rights ordinance that council member Chelsea Cook is leading forward.

Durham deserves quality housing and quality landlords.

This ordinance helps ensure both.

It makes clear that safety, maintenance, and dignity are not optional.

They are the standard.

This ordinance is a step forward, affirming that renters are not second-class citizens.

It is a step toward ensuring that safe, stable, and dignified housing is treated as a right, not a privilege.

It is a step toward aligning our policies with our values, because a city that grows without protecting its people is not truly growing at all.

This ordinance does not solve everything, but it signals that Durham is ready to do better by its residents.

It says that to every tenant who has been ignored, intimidated, or displaced.

We are moving in your direction.

Durham's progress must be measured not by buildings alone, but by belonging, by the security people feel when they turn their key in the door day or night.

Tonight, this council has an opportunity to stand on the side of respect, fairness, and responsibility to say that in Durham, housing will meet the quality our people deserve.

This city must also commit to the resources, infrastructure, and enforcement needed to fully support and hold and uphold this ordinance.

I urge you to vote yes.

This is how we build a better dorm for everyone.

Thank you.

I'm not gonna be I'm just want to say this.

I'm not gonna be negative at all.

Okay.

Psychological needs.

Friendship, family, intimity, it's a good thing.

Okay.

We are retests until nine ten.

Rethess until nine ten.

We'll be back.

The city of Durham, where careers meet community.

To connect with a career that serves the Bull City, visit Durham NC.gov slash careers.

Every year, 7 million 911 calls are made in North Carolina.

911.

Will you answer the call?

Every second counts.

You can be that lifeline.

People in crisis look to us for assistance.

We provide guidance and support until physical help can arrive at the scene.

Join us and make a difference in our community.

Be the calm in the chaos.

Be the voice in the dark.

It's the hardest career you'll ever love.

Will you answer the call?

Discover more at it.nc.gov slash nine one one careers.

Even if you owe more than you can handle, you still have rights.

Most legit debt collectors follow the rules, but bad debt collectors don't.

They break the law.

So if you get a call like this.

If you don't pay, we will have you arrested and deported.

Or this.

This is your final warning.

Pay up now, or we'll contact your employer and make them pay.

Hang up and report it to the Federal Trade Commission.

You have the right to be treated fairly no matter what.

That means debt collectors can't use abusive language, threaten violence or harass you or call you before eight in the morning or after nine at night they can't lie or pretend to be someone they're not taking legal action if you don't pay this debt right away or get you to pay a debt that doesn't even exist.

They can't have you arrested or deported or tell anyone about your debt bad debt collectors like to knock you off your guard to get an advantage create a sense of urgency and rush you'll say anything to get you to pay right now.

Instead hang up and report it to the Federal Trade Commission at FTC dot gov slash complaint we've stopped a lot of bad debt collectors help us stop more.

For more information about debt collection visit consumer dot governments aunque la mayor of it's legitimate no lock infringement lay receiving arrest and deport or como esta es su última advertencia oremos andar de commercio FTC tiene derecho a ser tratado justamente de todas maneras que los cobradors de deudas no pueden usar language abusivo, amenazarlo con violencia ore de la noche no pueden mentir no son if you don't action legal in support or not can existed no puzzle arrest ni deportarlo a los malos cobradors de deudas let's go attack on the guard but create a sensation urgency and approval the inmediato in some incident at the commission federal de commercial FTC in FTC.gov barrake a much malos cobradors deudas a frenar master cobrance the deudas visit consumidor punto geov barra deuda

Yeah.

I hope it will work for it.

Everyone could please take their seats.

Let's get the doors closed.

I'll give us a few more minutes, uh a few more seconds to just get everyone inside.

Thank you all so much.

We will uh continue.

And uh this is a this this this topic that we're discussing tonight is you know what what folks are living in on a daily basis, some people and and I have a lot of grace for that passion.

So um I did need to recess us, which we were about to do in about five minutes after that anyway.

Um so I just recess this a little earlier.

Um and I hope that no one out there is judging any resident by their passion.

Um but having grace for what some people have to go through.

Um I've I've known Ms.

Lyons for years and uh I'm glad we were able to have a conversation, but please have grace.

Um and also we can please just be respectful uh to to every voice in the room on this.

This this is I I I don't want us to be a a a city or a council that is represented by just damning each other, but more so uh taking the hard road to you know trying to make sure we get the best outcome for the least of the that's what it should be all about.

So I would ask you that you you I mean you're here.

You're in the room.

That means you give a dang.

So let's just have grace and have respect for one another.

Uh and you know, I'm I'm not the type of mayor that's gonna go back and forth with you.

I'm not gonna argue with you, I'm not gonna do all those things.

Um I'm just gonna humbly ask that we be mutually respectful.

And if I need to stop the meeting until things get in a better situation, then I will.

All right.

Before uh well, you know what, Mr.

Rock, you've been waiting, so I'm gonna call you up and then I'll call the uh final speakers.

Welcome to two minutes.

Yes.

Okay.

Uh good evening, everybody.

Um hope you all had a good break.

I appreciate the call for respect in this room.

Um, and I understand that respect is highly valued by the council, but I also want to acknowledge that respect is care, and a lot of the folks who are speaking out tonight have not received respect through the care and the support that they have been given and the basic infrastructure.

And so I think respect is does have to be mutual.

And uh I do I support this amendment because it is a way to show respect and care for all of our neighbors in all of our community.

Um I honestly have had a hard time thinking of what to say tonight because uh amendment just seems uh to as Ms.

Wallace said, like a no-brainer.

It's hard to conceive of why you would oppose this amendment.

Um I I understand that there is some existing infrastructure to pursue your rights as a tenant, but generally it's hard to enforce your own rights when you're living in such a vulnerable condition where your health and safety are on the line every day and it can be very time consuming and expensive to pursue your rights in that way.

And one thing that uh makes an immediate impact is money.

And if landlords aren't receiving rent for the goods or services that they are not providing, then they are gonna take action to make amends on that, um, which is why I feel confident about this amendment and the impact it will have.

And I just wanna I just want to say that I think this benefits everyone in Durham and the positive effects are going to be widespread because this affects health outcomes, this affects homelessness.

Uh this affects the health of our of our neighborhoods, both physically and emotionally and socially.

uh makes an immediate impact is money and if landlords aren't receiving rent for the goods or services that they are not providing then they are gonna take action to make amends on that um which is why I feel confident about this amendment and the impact it will have and I just wanna I just want to say that I think this benefits everyone in Durham and the positive effects are going to be widespread because this affects health outcomes this affects homelessness uh this affects the health of our of our neighborhoods both physically and emotionally and socially um I know folks who are experiencing houselessness who their only option for housing at this point is actually a step down because if they were to move into some of these buildings they would be living in unsafe dangerous conditions and also paying money to live that way and so it's actually uh a more logical choice to remain unhoused so these are unforgivable conditions for our city and our community um so I hope you'll consider this amendment and support it thank you Leslie St.

Drake can you hear me Leslie St.

Drake can you hear me?

Yes I can hear you hi welcome you have three uh two minutes thank you thank you thank you uh I'm I'm here also in support of this amendment I think uh as everyone has said it is basic um these folks that are suffering the most should not be paying for squalor um I I don't really even know why this is a debate these are these are things that should have been done long ago and I think this council has prioritized developers landlords and market rate housing and continuously says there's nothing we can do because of statewide preemption yet never tries to do anything and this ordinance shows that there is there are things that we can do uh to protect tenants and it's it's time that that tenants and residents in general of Durham are the priority not landlords not developers uh so I stand with the tenants always uh in general all the rent they're paying in is an investment in their home they're not seeing any returns in effect it is theft by the landlords taking all of their hard earned labor for profits so the least that this council could do is to protect them and then next it should be to organize to overturn those state laws that prevent us from having major protections like real rent control.

So um yeah stand with the tenants stand against developers taking our entire city stand against the unified development ordinance we need affordable housing first we need livable units first we need representatives who rep represent the people first thank you thank you and the last two speakers I have is Amy and Neamal Rettam Clerk okay um clerk yes Mr.

Mayor could you approach the day please welcome you have two minutes um hi my name is Amy and I'm speaking in strong support of the ordinance that would allow residents to withhold their rent when they're forced to live in on safe or unhabitable conditions.

I want to share my experience here in Durham I moved to Woodlake Reserve a private apartment complex last year and I thought that I was finally gonna get a fresh start after graduating from UNC.

It was advertised as a move in ready unit and the moment that I walked in I was hit with the smell of cigarette smoke so strong that it burned just like my eyes the place um I have an I have an asthma condition and within they I was struggling to breathe I had to take time of work just to go in person and beg them basically to do something.

When they finally like addressed the issue um I found that they addressed the issue wrong so I had to take basically clean the whole apartment myself because I could not like afford a hotel or move again and that exposure caused my first asthma attack in years.

So I documented everything in a Google review for all of us to see um but I know I'm not the only one and some people here shared their experiences that are far worse than mine.

And when we're talking about respect, I some corporations and CEOs here get some more time, but yet that time is not allotted to us when we're speaking far more true from our experiences.

This is life and that situations for a lot of people, working class people that cannot afford just to move somewhere else.

So please just pass this ordinance.

Common sense.

Okay, welcome.

Hi.

I'm Naya.

Thanks for taking the time to listen to me.

I just find it interesting how this entire evening you ask us not to applaud to asking us to have decorum and order.

But when it comes to these landlords, you aren't demanding it of them.

I support this amendment because people shouldn't have to subject themselves to having to clean up a place that they pay for when it is the job of the landlord to take care of it.

So I hope that you consider going forward with this amendment.

And yeah.

Yeah.

Welcome.

Okay.

Hi, my name is Maya, and I'm a resident of Durham.

For two years, I've had the misfortune of living in the Duke Manor apartment complex.

I would like to talk about my experience as a tenant in Duke Manor, which will explain why I am in favor of this ordinance.

Since March 2025, there have been six water outages in my apartment.

After the first outage in March, the water from my kitchen and bathroom faucets were brown.

The property management told me that brown water is normal after an outage due to pipe repairs.

And they suggested that I run the water faucets for 10 minutes to clear out the sediments in the pipes.

The first three times, maintenance workers unclogged my shower drain, which is not what I asked for.

The fourth time, a worker took a water sample in a plastic bottle, told me they would test it, but never got back to me.

Five months later, Duke Manor drained sediment from my water heater.

And six months later, they finally bought a water testing kit, but it was one of those $10 ones from Home Depot.

It has been six months, and I have yet to receive a comprehensive solution to a basic problem.

And each time I was dismissed.

For this reason, I support adding ordinance F to Section 10241 tonight.

Instead of fighting an uphill battle in a legal court against my landlord, I should be able to get Durham Code Enforcement, a third neutral party to determine if my water is potable.

I cannot afford legal action.

Thank you.

I'm a 43-year resident of Durham and chair of the Durham Regional Association of Realtors Government Affairs Committee.

And I'm speaking about our municipality in the context of uh national administration that's cutting government wherever it can.

We currently have 50% more of our population in rentership than nationally.

So for protecting property rights, it's essential that those tenants be treated not only with respect but with dignity.

And so we have laws on the books right now that uh make it criminal, a criminal act to provide unsafe and uninhabitable living conditions.

What this ordinance does is it removes the criminal implications for landlords who are uh who are victimizing their tenants that way.

Uh I'm concerned about this ordinance's uh inability to have been tracked in the court system, although although Pittsburgh and Charlotte have uh got it on their books, it hasn't been tested.

And I guess the biggest reason I have for opposing this amendment the way it's written is that our own city attorney says don't pass it.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Uh last speaker is Brian Holiday.

Yeah, Brian, Brian Holliday.

Welcome.

All right, thank you so much.

Wow, I'm at the end.

Good evening, Mayor, City Council.

My name is Brian Holliday.

I am here on behalf of the Triangle Apartment Association.

Our membership has worked with you guys in the past.

We presented with you in the past.

Uh we consist of 173 apartment communities here in Durham, and that is over 40,000 residential homes.

Um today there are actually some of our members here in uh in the audience today who are uh part of our membership.

Uh to the two minutes is not enough to get done what I need to say.

We actually have a letter, and we're going to present that to you guys to go through.

What we're big asses today is we want to be able to participate in the conversation.

We feel like we haven't been able to participate.

You know, the high school kids, one of the big things that happens when you have policy debates is you have to be able to look through it through different lenses.

And you have to understand the different perspectives, and that's important.

So thanks for bringing the conversation forward.

I would also say an important thing of having a policy debate is brains.

So don't be a no-brainer.

There is a brain situation that has to come in.

So in the letter that comes in, we have some issues that we like to uh present real quick.

I'm going to run through these, but they are documented out in this letter.

First of all, these current protections already exists.

Residents can report these concerns to code enforcement, which has the powers, including fines.

There also state laws that currently exist.

Secondly, these ordinances risk confusion.

North Carolina law requires a court determination before rent can be withheld.

It has been said many times already today.

This gives them the opportunity to hold rent.

There is so much confusion.

We need to have this conversation go throughout.

Also, lastly, there's a due process piece that is missing.

That needs to go through.

I think that we are at the beginning stages of it.

It was said earlier tonight that we want to make sure this feels ready to go on a different policy procedure.

We want to ultimately get it done right.

And so what I would encourage everyone is that we have those conversations.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

I'm asking to participate.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

It's our last speaker.

And at this time, I will this time I'll refer uh bring this back before the council.

And uh thank everyone for your uh for your remarks.

I will say as we are as we're getting into this, uh I do want to appreciate everyone's remarks and and I I appreciate folks just showing up and being a part of this conversation.

Uh what you are about to experience now is the council is going to show their liberation.

We're going to deliberate.

We're going to talk about it.

And then we'll uh I'll entertain a motion for us to move forward uh with this.

Um the council hasn't taken a position on it yet.

So I know there are some remarks saying that, you know, we are folks, I I truly believe, especially since I've had conversations with the council, uh, we are all on the same page and trying to make sure that our tenants are um those of us especially who rent um are um getting the best outcome here.

So uh Councilmember Cook, you uh facilitated bringing this before, so I'm gonna always start to my left mostly, but I'll uh start with you.

Thank you.

I'd actually like to speak last if that's okay.

Okay.

Councilmember Baker.

It is our job up here to protect, first and foremost, to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the people of Durham.

And what better way to do that than to address the largest household expense on average for everyone who lives in this city and everyone who lives in this country, which is housing.

Uh we know uh the statistics about the number and percentage of people who are housing cost burden.

It is large and it is growing.

It has been growing for many years, and some people call this a housing crisis.

It has become a housing crisis even for middle class people.

It has always been a housing crisis for low-income people.

And our method that we have, the tools that we have at our disposal, we have uh policymaking.

We have the police powers that are delegated to us uh by the state of North Carolina, and there are rare opportunities that come before us because of creative thinking, because of the conditions that people live in and organizing and people coming forward and putting things on the table.

Rarely do these opportunities come to us.

Uh rarely do we have opportunities to think bigger and on a larger scale across our entire city and not just in a piecemeal or uh smaller scale.

We know exactly how to make housing a human right.

Society knows exactly how to do it.

We build a massive amount of social or public housing that's beautiful, that's affordable, and that everyone can live in.

We know that we can do that.

We know that rent control is one of the most powerful ways to make sure that people can afford the place that they live and not get evicted.

We know that there are tools out there that exist, and we know that we don't have those things because our state, first and foremost, because our state and our federal government don't want us to have those things, because they want to limit the amount of resources that we have available to us to be able to build great, beautiful public, affordable housing for everyone.

They want to make sure the state, for example, wants to make sure we don't have the tools, thanks to industrial lobbying to enact uh minimum wage laws, uh price controls, minimum wage laws, and uh rent control.

They know that these are effective tools for keeping people in their homes, and we don't have that power because it was specifically prohibited uh from us.

So it is rare opportunities that thanks to creativity and organizing that we do have something before us using police powers that can actually affect our entire city and everyone who lives here when it comes to the greatest household expense that everyone, that the average household has.

We also know that this is a winning issue.

Poll after poll shows that working class people want great affordable housing, want price controls on housing, want protections uh against uh landlords who want uh to uh uh uh provide uh poor quality, provide poor quality housing and retaliate against residents who want to organize.

And even in states and places that have those limitations, we see increasingly incredible organizing.

Kansas City tenant union, LA tenant union, tenant unions growing across the country, and now here growing here in in the triangle triangle tenant union and so many others who are saying no, no, no.

We're going to organize our building, we're gonna organize our neighborhood, and we're gonna push back.

So that is happening.

One day we will overturn these laws.

One day we will organize and make sure that everyone can have great social housing, that the state of North Carolina no longer has these rent control prohibitions.

One day we will reach that.

And until then, we have moments like this, moments where we find a hole and a gap that we can fill.

So I'm excited about this common sense, as has been stated, common sense uh or uh ordinance that adds a modest tool, a modest tool in a tool bag, because we need every tool that we can possibly grasp for on the table.

Uh and this is one of those tools that is added to the tool bag.

Uh people shouldn't have to pay landlords when the quality of their housing is inadequate, is unsafe, is unhealthy.

Um this will not apply to the majority of housing in in our city.

That's an important thing.

Um I don't think most landlords should be worried about this.

Uh those landlords that are worried about this should make themselves known.

I would like to know to know who they are.

Um this ordinance doesn't regulate rent.

It doesn't.

It addresses uh rent, but it doesn't, it doesn't regulate rent.

It it simply helps to ensure that people are living uh in safe and healthy housing conditions.

And lastly, I just want to say thank you to everyone who's come out in support of this, but also to those who were here at the ground floor and who really helped push for this.

And I also want to say thank you to my uh colleague Chelsea Cook.

Uh the community did a lot of work, uh, brought this to light, brought this to attention.

Um, and uh Councilmember Cook put the deal on the table and has championed it and has championed it very well.

So I want to say thank you to Councilmember Cook for the work that she has done in really pushing this forward.

Um and uh lastly, I I do I do support this language and look forward to voting for it this evening.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um so I have a couple of questions for the city uh well, actually first for Councilmember Cook.

And you in the ordinance as presented, there's the second page, which is the list of items, and then in the attorney's memo.

We talked about this a little bit at the work session.

Is there a reason why we wouldn't want to do the list as stated in the attorney's memo?

Just pulling them both up.

Huh?

I just have to pull them both up.

Okay, sorry.

I have to move your mic.

Councilmember Cook, can I get a bit of your mic closure here?

Great.

Thank you.

Apparently I'm needing a lot of assistance, so that's good.

Okay.

Um they are not exactly identical.

And I do remember that there were a couple issues with the ones that with some of the ones that were missing from the attorney's version.

Um let me just remind myself here.

And if anybody has the answer to this readily available, feel free to assist.

Yeah, if if the city attorney could my understanding was because they brought the list that was in the original memo to our actual code enforcement officials, and the list that was provided was based on their expertise as to what they actually see out in the field as code enforcement.

That was what I remember from the work session.

But I was just wanting to make sure that that is true.

Uh if I could respond.

Yes, that is um the attorney's office worked with staff to develop um the uh the list based on the code enforcement that they um typically identify.

Thank you.

So I have one friendly amendment to the ordinance as stands.

Uh I would like to swap out the list from the original memo, the original ordinance with the list that the city attorney's office provided.

My belief is that that's based on more Durham context, and so I think it I think would be helpful.

Additionally, I do want to figure out the issue around what the Durham Housing Authority um mentioned, and so there is some um potential uh additional language, which is uh in Section 10-241, unless otherwise preempted by state or federal law.

That is another thing I would like to add to the ordinance that is in front of us, and that's all I have for right now.

I'll continue.

Mr.

Jordan, are you catching are you capturing this?

And I I want to continue um hearing from colleagues.

I think that um and I understand folks' frustrations with DHA.

Um that that is real and legitimate.

We have had to quite frankly bail them out uh with public money several times.

Um but they are still a landlord that is incredibly important, and uh we are uh in a very active partnership with them in many communities as their housing authorities have not been getting the necessary funds from the federal government, as the Federal Government has abandoned um the Federal Housing Program.

A lot of those units just go offline, right?

As code enforcement comes in, it's determined that they can't be, you know, fixed the maintenance is too big, the money is not there.

And so those units just go offline.

What does that mean?

It just means that they don't exist in the community.

It's not like they're replaced.

And we're actively trying to do something different in Durham.

It's one of the reasons that you're seeing so many uh housing authority properties turning over, and it's one of the reasons that so much of that was included in the Affordable Housing Bond in 2019.

Uh we're in the middle of that, obviously we're not done, but there are thousands of new, very nice units coming online in the next several years.

And so it's hard to be in that position with our housing authority.

So I do want to think through carefully how we negotiate that with them.

But I want to hear what other colleagues have to say.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilmember Freeman?

Thank you.

I just had a question.

I wanted to follow up with the Durham Housing Authority representative.

And I'll first say I I do think that it's probably going to do some damage to the actual ordinance to add or change that list.

And so I do think it's important that it stays the same way that it was presented so that you keep in line with Pittsburgh and Charlotte.

But I I just wanted to just follow up with uh with your commentary.

When you do inspections for rental units that are under sub not it's separate with the vouchers, if the landlord has mold or leakage, what happens?

For those units that not pass inspection, they go into abatement.

And what does that mean?

That means that they don't receive their federal subsidy.

And that federal subsidy is rent?

Yes.

On the part of DHA.

Yes.

What happens to the resident?

The resident will stay in their unit.

So we were talking about the housing choice voucher program.

And so there's an opportunity for that unit for to uh for the improvements to take to their unit.

But as long as if the landlord does not make those improvements, they will not receive their rent from DHA.

Okay.

And so if that improvement takes three to six months, what happens?

And then because we we do we are not part of the lease, that is an agreement between the landlord and the resident, then the resident has the right at that point to take whatever legal action is available to them regarding the conditions of their unit.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

Thank you.

I I would just say that I think similar to our earlier conversation about quorum, you know, um ADUs.

If you just viewed it as an opportunity to do a pilot and just see for a year we can revisit the ordinance as it is written without any problem.

Uh I think it's it's fair, just based on the way that it's been presented from the students and the community and council member cook.

I really want to appreciate I watched about four and a half of the six and a half hours of your meeting that I missed, and I do believe that there were really good comments made and lots of questions about why or how to change the way that it was written.

And what I'm most concerned about in any of those changes is that the city taxpayer becomes on the hook for doing the repairs.

And so I don't want us to move into the area where we're trying to abate the abatement.

So we're not trying to fix it for the landlord.

We're trying to make sure that the tenant has the best tools and options to make sure that their court case can move forward.

And everything that I heard from the meeting, and anyone can correct me if I'm wrong, but but I do think that this would be the way that it is written, the ordinance that was presented would be the best way to move forward.

So I'll leave it at that for now.

I'm definitely listening.

I I do want to say that I think council member I'm Mayor Pro Tem Middleton's comment about if these types of um tools were available when he was a youngster and the projects that might have been different, you know, not having roaches crawling on you and all that good stuff that happens um when you have that uh infestation.

But I I do want to say that it is it is it's incredibly difficult to listen to folks be chastised about respect on on it, knowing that they are living as a as a former healthy housing trainer, train the trainer, like all of those things going into some of these houses in this city is been incredibly hard to see how children in our community have to live.

Um the holes in the floor, the holes in the ceiling, the leaks, the broken toilet, like all of the things that happen, and if we have an opportunity to make sure we shift the balance of power in the direction so that the tenant has a little bit more of an opportunity to to be abated or to to be like essentially in a safe home.

I think that that's something we should we should definitely try to do.

And then like I said, it could just be a pilot.

We can look at it.

It's an ordinance that can be changed in the future.

I think that, you know, given a year or two years, um, council will be different.

But it just gives us a chance to see whether or not this would work.

And that would be my my hope for this council.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I I want to make sure I injected, I want to protect the integrity of our debate here.

I would not even debate uh our conversation.

And there is no one in this room being chastised about respect.

We're saying mutually respect one another.

And I I want to keep that in context.

I I it's dangerous to take it out of context.

I I appreciate that.

I think the tone may have just been off.

But I I appreciate what you're saying.

Well, pardon my tone.

But I want to make sure we're mutually respectful, like we are right now.

So thank you.

Council.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Um first of all, thanks to all the folks who came out tonight for your passion for the intensity of the time you spent for this meeting.

Um I think what you're hearing here in the council is that everyone in this council supports greater support for tenants in Durham.

Everyone in this council supports increasing support for tenants in Durham.

We know, I know the data shows that half of our renters in Durham are housing cost burden.

That's real.

This is a big issue.

I also want to just point, I know one of the speakers says we're not doing anything for affordable housing for renters.

I think you just heard me talk at the beginning of this meeting.

On this agenda alone, 160 units in the page road apartments, all affordable at 60 percent AMI, no city subsidy, right?

Another two million the city is putting into the Durham Affordable Housing Loan Fund to acquire rental properties that are coming out of tax credit status so we can bridge those over to affordable housing providers.

The quorum, the ADUs.

There's a lot of things we're doing for affordable housing.

This council cares.

I want to thank Milo for the research.

Good to see you, Mile.

Great stuff.

Um we've had a lot of discussion here and at the work session about this issue.

A lot of good discussion, which I really appreciate.

Um I get, and I appreciate the folks from the Triangle Apartments Association who've described that there are there are means on the books for folks, but it does require court determination.

And I get that that for people who don't have the resources and time to go get to a court or a board to get that determination.

That's a big factor, right?

This is a big hurdle.

So I appreciate that.

Um I have one question actually for if Italo could approach the mic from the tenants union.

I do want to understand, because I think you referenced like three amendments that I don't see in my packet.

So I want I want to make sure I understand the three amendments you referenced.

Thank you, uh Councilmember Rist.

So the three amendments, did you have the uh the original memo in response to the city attorney's memo on you?

Yeah, I think yeah.

That should be the last section, section 4C.

And it talks uh about the Danzig court decision that we talked about in our first work session.

Um those are just minor drafting changes that would uh bring in uh an addition of a notice period, which wouldn't substantially change the ordinance at all.

Uh it would bring in a knowledge standard, both uh actual and constructive.

Um then it would also uh and and those two in speaking with council members, uh you know, that's for you all to debate, but it seems that it's already in the municipal code.

Um so that might be for somebody, somebody else to talk through.

Um and then the third one would be an opportunity to cure.

Uh so giving landlords the opportunity to cure the defect, uh, and we believe that 48 hours is a reasonable time.

And that actually helps us because what we want is for these defects to be cured.

So if we're telling them you have 48 hours and they're gonna cure them, great.

We want that.

Thank you.

So so is that is Councilmember Cook, is that part of the is that part of what we now have before us, or is that something that would need to be added?

I want to make sure where that where those amendments stand.

Uh those amendments have not been added.

That's that was the attorney's saying suggestions.

I would I would suggest that because it is in the code, there is already necessitated notice and knowledge, because this is a city code ordinance, and the way that we do our city code is that we have city code inspectors uh who do the inspection and give provide notice to the landowners.

Um I spoke earlier um with the attorney and am in willing to entertain a notice period, but a short one that reflects the imminently dangerous conditions language that's in the state statute.

And so I think 48 hours would be appropriate.

Is this what we spoke about?

Yes.

Yeah.

So some due diligence, but before we got here tonight, I know I had spoken about some amendments.

So are you going to propose that or that's great?

Thanks for answering that.

And then I, you know, you all I do serve as a liaison to the Durham Housing Authority, and I appreciate Mr.

Snell being here.

I do support what Council Cook said about the clause that would say unless unless.

Sorry about that.

Unless otherwise preempted by State or Federal law, adding that clause before the language.

So I would support that amendment.

Yeah.

The Durham Housing Authority, y'all, this is this is our housing authority.

They they serve I think the number is like 10,000 people every day that otherwise would have no access to housing.

So the Durham Housing Authority, it's they're building a better housing authority.

We're working with them.

It's a complicated, difficult environment because Federal funding has been cut, but there are 10,000 people every day that live in public housing.

And this it's our people.

And as Council Member Cabrier said, a lot of cities to say, look, it's a Federal responsibility, we are not into it, and those units essentially get decommissioned, right?

So we're trying our best to maintain units for folks and get that some of that housing is aging housing.

I want to work with housing authority.

Thank you.

Thank you, Ms.

Mayor.

Don't go far and when I share my remarks, I'm going to ask you to come back up anyway.

So just but it will be it will be last.

Mayor Proton.

Thank you, Mr.

Marin.

Thank you, colleagues.

Firstly, I want to celebrate the uh tradition of student activism for bringing things to bear.

You stand in the tradition of Royal Ice Cream protesters and Woolworths protesters and the young people that were attacked by dogs and fire hoses.

It was high school students that brought one of the cases that led to Brown v.

Board of Education.

So you are in good company tonight, and you have done a marvelous thing.

I also want to just say how excited Charlotte must be tonight that finally Durham is copying them rather than rather than Charlotte copying us.

They take our staff, they take our ideas up in Charlotte.

So I am sure they are having a good night seeing how we are seeking to model them.

I'll very simply, colleagues, repeat what I actually said at the work session last time.

Firstly, I I thanked uh Councilmember Cook for her passion and leadership in this.

I did indeed say that I wish I had people with this passion when I was growing up in public housing.

Um what I actually said was that I support uh this ordinance.

That's what I actually said, and our meetings are archived.

You can go back and watch.

Um I also had some questions, which were asked and answered.

Um I know that there are some some challenges.

I expressed also that I don't think we should overstate what success has looked like with respect to this ordinance.

But there is something important.

I think that the very specter uh that there may be uh some governmental action actual use, the specter of police power, if not actually using police power, but the specter of it.

If it can put tenants uh in a better position uh to leverage it to get some positive outcomes, then why wouldn't I support it?

I do also want to say um that, in fairness to our our friends and colleagues around the state.

Common sense is one thing when it is stated.

But when we try and govern it and legislate it, there are some devil in the details.

This is so common sense that out of 500 municipalities, only two of them have it.

Because this is an area that takes courage.

This is an area that a lot of our colleagues around the state uh don't want to take on the fight.

They don't want to take on the challenges.

So Durham should just pause for a moment.

I know this is a rigorous debate and back and forth, but it's okay to just bask for a few moments in the fact that we are stepping out on something that seems commonsensical, but there's so few people that have done it if it's so commonsensical.

And that's because sometimes legislating common sense takes courage.

It's take it takes values.

Um it takes stepping out of a comfort zone, which is what uh we are doing.

So I, again, I celebrate everyone that has come out here uh tonight.

Um we have to tell the truth.

Um this has not been enforced.

We will have some questions, and we will run into some issues.

You need to hear that.

We owe that to you as fiduciaries of the city, as the folk who you put in this position, not to just make speeches or throw out catchphrases, but to actually govern.

You pay us.

You tell us to stay up at night to think about the things that you don't think about so you can raise your families and pay your bills and live your life.

You have delegated that to us.

And we owe it to you to ask these questions.

We owe it to you to poke and prod.

We owe it to you to see where there's weakness and where there's strength.

That's our job.

And that's the cost of being up on this dais with all the other stuff that comes with it.

So I think we've done that.

And I think we've done it at the last work session.

But if this can help in even a small way, put tenants in a position to leverage if the specter of government action is raised and it can help tenants, then I support it.

That's what I said then.

That's what I stand by tonight.

Thank you.

Councilmember Cook.

Just want to address a few things first.

I've been back through the list and I had already done this, but my notes are in 7,000 places.

We are missing in the city attorney's list several things that were provided in the original ordinance.

That includes the num uh number one, the 234 H1, which is structures, the entirety of number four, which is unsafe ceiling or roofs, um, and then uh most of number 11, which is the uh unsafe door locks.

And again, um we've written and I I want to say really clearly, I did not write this.

This has been something that I have been talking about.

Um if you go back to my well, don't do this because it was like the worst I've ever spoken in public, but if you did go back to my interview when I was uh got the appointment for this position, I talked about adding teeth to back to NIS.

Um our city code inspectors uh used to have the ability to um to uh in to enforce their inspections.

We did use to have a criminalized component to that.

Um that code was stripped from or the criminalization component was stripped by the state.

Um and I had talked in my initial interview about bringing more teeth to it, but I want to be really clear, even though this is conversation I've been having for a really long time, the draft of this ordinance came from the Riverside High School Affordable Housing Group, and they deserve all of the credit in the world, particularly Milo Graber who's here tonight, who spoke earlier, um, incredible work.

So I guess it's confusing to me why we continue to uh kind of like try and poke holes in it.

Um the reason for this list, and though it is specific, of course, to the Durham Municipal Code, um, it more or less reflects the code that exists in Charlotte and has exists and been used for over a decade, um, and was in fact recodified relatively recently.

Uh this is the safest way to do it, is the code as written in front of us tonight.

Um so for those reasons, um, I'm not willing to switch out the um list.

And um I spoke earlier on the time to cure.

I think that if that is something that will bring folks to the table and um I asked specifically, I think the mayor and I talked about this earlier.

If he would vote for it if it had a 48-hour um curing, uh, then I am willing to include it to get more support behind it.

Um but I want to speak to the other amendments that have been suggested, particularly the one regarding the housing authority.

Um I have a few things to say about that.

The first is that we had the um interim executive director up here talking about what happens when a voucher house falls into abatement, and I want to be really, really clear about what happens.

There is a triangle relationship when the housing authority has a voucher.

The housing authority has a relationship with the landlord.

The housing authority has a relationship with the tenant and the landlord and the tenant have a relationship.

So you've got the three parts of this triangle.

And so when a unit is in abatement, as in they fail any part of the housing authority's inspection, the housing authority stops paying that rent.

And what it means is that a tenant has to figure out what to do.

And if you know anything about Durham and uh our real world experiences here, it's extremely hard to move with a voucher.

Extremely hard.

And so you also have a federally mandated timeline to move your voucher.

And so if you have a unit that is failing inspection and DHA stops paying, and your landlord wants you gone instead of fixing the issue, then you have a certain amount of time to transfer your voucher to another unit.

And what happens in that situation?

People lose their vouchers.

They lose their vouchers because they cannot lease up fast enough to meet those requirements.

So we don't have to sit here and talk about it like it doesn't happen.

We know what's happening with those vouchers in real time.

So I don't I know I'm not gonna I'm not gonna sit up here and listen to anything that like disqualifies the real experience that's going on in Durham because people need to really understand what's happening with that.

Um I also want to state that we have housing authorities.

First of all, we have one in Charlotte.

They're doing fine with this code, the ordinance exactly as written.

Um we also have housing authorities all across the country and states with much stricter tenant protections.

They are all okay.

And in fact, they're all doing way better than the Durham Housing Authority is, so just say that for it's for what it is.

I mean, we we have yeah, we've we all know the problems, I don't need to wax on about them.

Um then uh the final thing I want to say about this is that the housing authority, yes, provides almost all of our affordable housing that is in the city, but they also have buildings and they are subject to our city codes, and we inspect those buildings, and we therefore have the right to levy penalties on those buildings if they do not meet the health and safety standards that we have for this city.

So I'm not interested in amending any further.

Like I said, I will um I will entertain a um 48-hour curing period.

Um, but that is the extent of those amendments that I'm willing to entertain the question.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

So I uh I think that's what I think.

Yes, ma'am.

Thank you.

I didn't want to just say go pirates.

Are you done?

Um thank you so much.

Uh I I for those of you who know me personally, you know, I'm very prideful.

And I I just I hate it saying um we're gonna be like Charlotte, be like Charlotte.

I I just I I think we're better than Charlotte.

And um when we were talking about this in a work session, I I wanted us to um I wanted us to really, you know, put some muscle behind this and make sure that it's it's ironclad.

Um but work, you know, just speaking with my colleagues and you know, just understanding the risk and the um you know, just what's at stake.

Um I think that we will be okay.

Um I know that I I do want to put something on the record, uh just we are defiantly Durham.

Uh we tend to know what's before us, and then we uh sometimes still push the envelope.

So there is a preemption clause that I want to make sure that everyone is aware of, and then I'm going to ask my colleagues to uh um come to a vote.

So, Mr.

Attorney, we're we were briefly talking about that preemption clause.

I just want to make sure we are all clear what that is.

Yeah, just to just to summarize since the uh the work session, city attorney's office reviewed um the memo from the tenants union and um provided a memo to the council and um in that memo uh continued uh did not uh did not change its opinion with regard to um the authority of uh the city um and specifically made reference to the landlord tenant uh act uh and sustained this opinion that um the the city is preempted expressly preempted um by that act, and that's why the city gave the opinion that um that uh the statute doesn't authorize the uh council to enact or enforce this ordinance.

So that is the opinion of the city attorney's office.

It has not changed.

And that that's uh that's just a summary of what City Attorney's Office has done to this point.

Thank you.

So I I think we all uh know that it is uh it is not for it's not enforceable.

It's not for us.

It's for it's a tool for for tenants.

Um but uh it also works two ways.

It is really to protect the transaction of a dwelling space between, you know, um the uh the tenant and and and the landlord.

Uh so uh but I I also could she come back up no way it's fucking brief.

I just want you to state those three um three points again briefly.

So the three uh amendments that we uh proposed would be in response to the Danzi decision, and that would be to add a notice period to add uh a knowledge requirement.

Um but again, just to reiterate in conversation with council members, this there seems to be a statutory interpretation that those are already in the municipal code.

So the most important one for us would be the 48-hour curing period.

Yeah.

Well, if you're looking to me with regard to how to put that in, I'm not gonna make a particular record recommendation of the precise wording or where that should go.

I not certainly not here.

Um uh I'm not prepared to do that.

Um that's fine.

Okay.

Yeah, that's fine.

I just I just wanted to, but we can do that.

We would have to adopt ultimately we'd have to, whether it be by amendment, we'd have to adopt the change if if the council proceeds with adopting something tonight, and we agree if the city attorney's office agrees that um it's uh strengthened with a cure pure um period, we would come back to you with the appropriate amendment in the appropriate place.

That would be my recommendation rather than actually propose that right now.

Okay.

Uh councilmember.

Thank you.

Um I wouldn't mind that.

I would also, I mean, when we've done some other things, we've had a period of going back and seeing um what the what the outcome was.

Like what is it is it moving anything, is it doing anything?

Does it need to be updated?

So if we have to come back and add this cure language, which I think is a good idea.

I think it resolves some of the concerns that I certainly have with this ordinance.

Um I would I would appreciate that.

And I appreciate what Councilmember Cook is saying about this list, but I'm looking at the list and uh at least the roof part and the other one are in there.

So I'm not really quite sure.

Um again, I would rather have it tied to our code, because those are our rules.

I don't care what Charlotte's doing, right?

That's their code, it's our code.

And so I'm happy to keep moving tonight, but at some point this is gonna have to come back and we're gonna have to tweak language so that we can get it right.

Thank you.

Okay.

Uh just to make sure I'm on track here.

Uh, Mr.

Attorney, you are suggesting that we I mean, if we are going to make any adjustments, then we can we should do that later, uh, but not add that to what we have now.

My recommendation, if we're making changes to uh the ordinance that is before you today, is that any changes be crystal clear?

Um and that the uh the the clerk understands what those are.

Um that's that's my recommendation.

I do not have a recommendation to the extent that a cure period is advisable to add to the ordinance.

I don't have a recommendation now to tell you where that should go in the in the proposed ordinance or somewhere else in the code.

Um it's just something that uh takes a little bit of time to to uh recommend.

That so that was and and that recommendation was my my hold up on this.

Uh Councilmember Cook, this is what I was speaking about earlier.

Uh just that period, uh the cure period.

Um for the sake of just facilitating the due diligence, uh this is um so the recommendation that we're talking about is what my hold my hang up was, which I think that amendment addresses my concern.

Uh so uh can I ask a question?

Yeah.

So wouldn't a cure period be part of the way that it was administered?

And wouldn't that be more on the program side or the actual implementation side of this conversation rather than the ordinance?

Similar to like planning, they have a like or just regular inspections.

Inspections.

That's on the implementation side.

And I'm looking at to blow it.

Yeah, that more than anything.

I would have to defer to staff as to whether or not we've had an opportunity to to weigh in on a cure period.

This is not a conversation that the we've had at the administrative level.

Alexis John, good evening, Mayor.

Mayor Pro Tim in City Council.

Alexis John Housing Code um housing in neighborhood services assistant director.

We currently do have a curing period within the current odd ordinance that states that owners have 72 hours to make repairs to uh the property.

Okay.

That works for me.

Okay.

Thank you.

If uh the 72-hour curing period is on is uh on the code, the position of the North Carolina Tenance Union would be that we should adopt it as is.

All right, any other comments?

Also, there is a proposal as well for this preemption caveat before the ordinance that I hear Councilmember Cook is suggested she does not accept that.

But there may be support on the council for that.

So I want to put that out there.

That's what's the uh which one was that again?

The uh two that's a pro I can I can read it if you'd like.

Um this is language that the the city attorney's office shared today earlier that I've shared with with folks in the council.

So it would read otherwise, unless otherwise preempted by state or federal law, and then the then the language then continues there.

Quick question.

Quick question.

Isn't that already the way every ordinance is received?

One moment, please.

Well, that's the wording is not in every ordinance.

Um it's ex this is a proposal to make it expressly stated.

What is that change?

Because I think that's the same thing.

That wording that phrase to say unless otherwise that's the express statement.

Well, what I'm saying is we'll if we were preempted, we would just be preempted, the law would not stand, right?

That's generally how this works.

So when PRIP was was preempted.

I think there are other reasons to make it express in particular.

You gotta say what those reasons are.

I'm sorry.

Well, given the opinion uh that we have given previously as to um our authority, our recommendations if you do want to adopt this to make it clear that we're we're saying it's it's uh an ordinance that is uh effective um is applied so long as it is uh uh uh consistent or does not is not does not conflict with uh the uh authority of is not pre otherwise preempted, I'm sorry.

And I don't have the wording in front of the.

And I and I think uh I understand what you're trying to put in place is to make sure that the city attorney's office has has offered its objection to it, but what I'm saying is if it were preempted by the state or federal government, it would automatically kill the ordin ordinance.

Am I under some like um correct me if I'm wrong?

That's what I'm saying.

Well, but the ordinary um I think that that I think that that's uh one second.

Uh folks, do we I mean we want to get this through.

We really do.

I think that that is a difficult question to answer in uh the um uh you know it's uh uh without concrete examples and scenarios.

I think CRIP was one was the one I gave as an example.

And so part of the issue is um is who is going to be applying this ordinance and who's gonna be relying on the ordinance.

Um that's part of the question here.

Yeah.

So that is I mean, that was a recommendation that we we had if you wanted to proceed with uh the proposed wording.

I I hear what you're saying.

I hear what you're saying in the unsaid.

Thank you.

Um we don't need to add any confusion to this.

If we are creating a tool for tenants to use, then let's create a tool for tenants to use, and let's not add any extra language that might cause distraction or cause someone to challenge it or cause someone to think that maybe it does not apply to them.

We know that city law is preempted by state law and state law is preempted by federal law.

We have a hierarchy.

We do this all the time in court where laws conflict, we always take a more powerful law.

It's a thing that we learn our first year of law school.

Um and it is exciting to do it in real time, I will say, because it's challenging sometimes to find where things are in conflict.

But for me, adding in language that's going to make this more vague, potentially accept people from it, potentially add a target to our backs, it's not a friendly amendment.

I would say it was the opposite.

Yeah, so um I I'm not an attorney, as Councilmember Cook is.

Um we have raised we we rely on our city attorney.

Well, as Councilmember uh as Mayor Pratem said, our job here is to figure out the best way to make this work for Durham.

We've received intelligence from the Housing Authority, which is not part of the City of Durham, a separate organization, that this is a this is a challenge.

We've gone to the City Attorney and asked how do we address this challenge, this unique role that that the Federal law plays with the German Housing Authority.

We've asked their advice, this is the advice they have given us, and that's what I'm bringing forward.

All right.

Yep, go ahead.

Yeah, I think that Councilmember Cook, I appreciate what you're doing here.

Um part of being one of seven is to come to consensus, at least I'm interested in that.

Um this is an ordinance where most of us are in agreement.

There is an a line being added based on you know city attorney advice.

I appreciate that you are attorney, but you are not in the city attorney's office, and neither are you an expert in municipal law.

And so I think that I am interested in adding that.

I think it it I think that it is helpful and I appreciate the city attorney's advice.

There have been many times that residents have come and advocated for something that we don't have the legal authority to do, and we've had to spend often many years trying to craft a work round.

We often call it the Durham work round.

Uh tax relief during the pandemic when we provided grants and loans to small businesses.

Uh small businesses wanted us to do grants, that is clearly not allowed.

And so we created a fund with Duke, and Duke did the grant side, and we did the low interest loan side, because that's what we had the authority to do.

So this is not any different for me.

This is part of being a local leader or a municipal leader in the state of North Carolina.

It's frustrating, it's challenging, it makes it hard to do your job.

But it is what it is.

And so I am interested in adding that.

I appreciate what you've said, but again, we often have to pivot or change things that we want as council members to bring everyone along.

And I think most of us are there.

Um that's where I'm at.

Uh I think it would be helpful to add that clause, and I understand and appreciate why the city attorney's office is suggesting it.

Thank you.

So I think I think what is being missed is this is a specific crafting that is meant to work as a tool, and that would undo the tool.

So you're you're missing like this is not like trying to get everybody to consensus where you just change a couple of words and it still works the same way.

That addition would give people a hang-up to skip the reason we're putting the tool in place.

So the sentences themselves become additional words to challenge.

Don't add any additional words.

Leave it the way that it is.

And I'm I'm not I'm trying like I'm trying to be really too like serious and saying like it's this is not, this is not like you know, trying to get to PB or whatever.

This is this is specific to.

If we were trying to put in place in immigrant defense, we would want the language to be as tight as possible so that you couldn't work around it.

You don't make it looser.

You don't give anyone a way out.

And I would posit that if preempted by the State of North Carolina, we wouldn't have that authority.

And so that's what's at stake here.

And that's why I'm saying if it was preempted.

It has preempted.

That's what we wouldn't have that authority if it was.

All right, thank you.

Yeah.

Well, actually, my bad.

I yield I'll yield.

I'll use it.

Councilmember Rist.

I just want to ask a quick question to the city attorney.

So, would this clause violate the ordinance we're discussing?

In your opinion?

Would it violate what it would be?

Would it undo the ordinance that we're considered?

No.

In your opinion.

I don't know.

All right.

I I colleagues, I appreciate this this discussion, debate, whatever you want to call it very much.

I guess the controlling question for me is will it do violence to the tool ship, the efficacy of the toolship, because again, Charlotte has not enforced this.

So to make a to make an icon of Charlotte's ordinance that has not been enforced, I mean, they're as much as it in experimental territory as we are.

And I think our with all due respect, I think our attorneys are smarter than Charlotte's attorneys.

And they came and headhunted one from us.

So I hope I don't get into an intermunicipal fight.

But I also know that sometimes in heated discussions, sometimes we get into a rut where we defend for the sake of defense, where we are so vested in something that belongs to all of us.

There is 300,000 people in the city.

There are multiple perspectives, and there's nothing wrong with this council, seven people that represent any one of us.

There's probably thousands of people in the city that agree with our position just by virtue of us being up here.

And I don't think we should easily dismiss that.

So I don't want to be dismissive of any of my colleagues because the thousands of people put them here, of our neighbors and friends and residents.

So I don't want to disrespect the process of deliberation or or be lulled into thinking that my position is the only position and the only right one.

That is where democracy starts to break down.

With that said, my only question, and I put this to anyone, is it does the language do violence to providing a tool?

And if so, how does it?

And if we're comparing it to a city that's never enforced it in the first place, how do we know that?

But again, I am prepared to support it as is, but I don't want to be dismissive of my colleagues raising uh questions pursuant to their sworn duty uh to do this.

I I I think that would be a a disservice to our public square to do that.

But I am prepared to to support it uh as is.

But that question does stand.

Would it do violence to the to the effect of it?

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Mr.

Mayor, I'm I'm if if folks are ready, I'm okay with introducing that motion.

I I have a few uh amendments that uh none seem to cause any violence or harm or damage.

Um I just need to remember the order.

So I am sorry what we haven't agreed to any amendments.

And in fact, they said that because there was the 72-hour that we yes.

All right.

And I want to just say to the Mayor Pro Tem's point, it that's the exact crux of the issue.

Um it will, in fact, impede the tool.

It wouldn't make any difference for the city.

We only are sorry, you said it would it would be it would.

It would affect that as a tool for tenants.

Um there's people here who I literally practice an eviction court all day every day, so I do find that I am an expert in this field.

There are other folks here who um not like this isn't like a thing, I'm just speaking from personal knowledge, but there is also other experts here who can speak to this as well.

Um, but it would impact its ability as a tool.

It doesn't make a difference for us because we can't enforce something that is preempted, so it doesn't really impact us either way.

But what it does do is it weakens, it takes the teeth out, it weakens the tool for tenants.

And so that is the crux of the issue, and that is why I am so opposed to this.

It's not because I don't want to reach a consensus up here, but if it means leaving behind some tenants, I am not willing to sacrifice them.

No, I would I re I wouldn't have a lot of the questions.

Listen, uh as I have, I'm I'm giving great deference to you in this in this conversation, and uh and I I appreciate and my question was genuine.

It was a genuine uh inquiry to see whether or not it would be a good idea.

I do appreciate the spirit.

No, I appreciate the spirit uh of the response and I respect uh the work you do and the expertise you do.

Um and the question was a real question in seeking to come as close as we can to um shared ownership of this ordinance because it will become the the property of the people of Durham, all of us, and we speak for all of those people.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Speaking of question, I am going to call it uh I will entertain a motion to add a new subcategory F in the Code of Ordinances, Chapter 10, Article 6, Section 10-241 violation penalty fees as proposed.

So moved.

Five minutes.

Five minutes.

Maybe it's not on.

Let's try it again.

There we go.

Awesome.

Good evening.

My name is Jaleesa Harris.

I'm a staff planner in the land development review work group in the planning and development department.

Staff requests that all planning and development department testimony and materials presented be made part of the permanent record.

This street closing request SC twenty five zero zero zero zero one was continued from the August fourth City Council meeting to allow further discussion with the applicant about the provision of a greenway easement for the proposed Rockwood Trail.

This request is for the permanent closure of a four hundred and two linear foot portion of Cliff Street between Blunt Street and Rosedale Avenue.

A revised plat has been submitted by the applicant, which provides two greenway easements, one parallel to Cliff Street and one running perpendicular to Cliff Street and connecting to Sycamore Street.

The portion of Cliff Street, as shown in attachment A, the context map, proposed for closure has not been opened and does not contain any public improvements or uses.

They are at the north side of that parcel that is going to be recombined with the right-of-way that's to be closed.

And uh Rosedale runs north-south to the east of that on the private property.

That's where this the easement will be located.

Sorry, the second one is on the private property and the first one is the same.

They're both on private property versus in the right of way.

So that's because right of way should only be for streets.

And there's that we didn't have a mechanism for that.

The applicant has been willing to give an easement across their private property.

Okay.

So it's not actually technically the property yet issue in the street closing where the easement is going to be.

Does that make sense?

Yes.

But I I thought that we I thought that we were talking about this last time, and we were told that easements couldn't be part of the street closure.

And so that was the that I thought was the issue.

You mean as of the same process.

Yeah.

We have talked to the attorneys and we feel good about it.

Okay, awesome.

It just has changed.

I just thought that's a good question.

And it has only happened one more time that I'm aware of.

So it is a very unusual situation.

But it worked out this time.

Great.

Thank you.

Those are my questions.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilmember.

Councilmember Baker.

Yeah, just following up on that.

So this is a to vacate uh a portion of Cliff Street.

The legal mechanism is did they also submit like a parallel application for uh re uh for a plat?

Is that what we're talking about here?

So the street closing plat also shows the recombination because the right of way becomes part of another parcel or multiple parcels.

And in this case, the only difference from that is that we're also adding easements to it.

Cool.

All right.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilmember Colleagues.

Anyone else?

All right, this public hearing is open.

I'm going to invite the applicant uh to please approach.

Good evening, sir.

How much time do you anticipate needing?

Uh only a very few minutes, I expect at this point.

Uh let's let's put 12 minutes on the clock, please.

But my wife Jan and I are going empty, have gone empty nest.

And we are, of course, looking to downsize that comes with it.

We have lived in the neighborhood since we moved in in 1992.

So have lived there nearly 35 years now.

We want to stay in the neighborhood.

We want to be in a position to age in place.

And to do that, we propose to build a smaller house on the than we are currently in on the 1700 Cliff Street lot.

The closing that we're asking for is part of our plan to build that house.

Now, as Ms.

Harris mentioned in her summary, at the August 4th City Council meeting, the concern that was raised was access to the Rockwood Trail, which runs what to which is proposed to run west of our property.

And the concern, of course, was that closing Cliff Street would block east-west access from Rosedale Avenue to uh the proposed Rockwood Trail.

Uh at the August 4th session, council basically told us to work with planning to see if we could develop a win-win solution.

I believe the exact words win-win were used by were used by a member of the council at that session.

So we have we have done that.

We have work with count we have worked with planning, and we have worked with uh parks and rec and we have come up with a this proposal which you see in the plat in front of you.

We are proposing a greenway easement that runs across the north side of the 1700 Cliff Street property.

And at the request of Parks and Wreck, we have also given an easement on the other property that we own, 1700 Cliffs, 1700 Sycamore Street running roughly uh northwest to southeast across that property.

And Parks and Rec asked for that, and we have agreed to give it to them.

So I believe that at this point we have found the win-win solution that we were looking for after the August 14th, August 4th meeting.

And I thank you for your consideration.

And I am certainly here to answer any questions or concerns that you have.

Thank you so much for being with us, sir.

We do have a speaker sign up, Chris Perlstein.

Mm-hmm.

Thank you for being with us.

You'll have three minutes.

I'm back.

I thought about the bow tie more and I do still like it.

And state colors.

I appreciate that, man.

Thank you.

So uh the applicant actually reached out to me and we chatted about their plans, um, which you know aren't expressed in uh the the plot, you know, and and the the application for closing uh cliff street.

And after talking to them, uh, you know, the they expressed that their desire um wasn't to isolate the properties or prevent future development uh potential in an area that is bus accessible, which is a big concern of mine.

Um I believe the proffer of the Greenway easement would solve pedestrian bicycle access, assuming the city completes the short greenway segment as well as the remainder of Cliff and Blount paper streets.

Um so we really need the city to um kind of focus on coming up with some good policies and finishing this network uh to avoid these situations.

The city could also avoid, I I referenced that the um draft UDO would forbid new dead end streets uh and my concern that we would be potentially creating those um with this closure.

The city could also avoid those by completing the Rosedale and Moreland paper streets.

Um so there's some options here, but it requires the city to establish you know those policies to do this.

Um on top of the safety improvements of reducing vehicle miles traveled uh per our Vision Zero action plan, there's an affordability component that's really important to me uh as transportation makes up the second biggest uh chunk of household expenses after the first one that we've talked a lot about, um, which is uh rent.

Affordability is about more than just your rent and mortgage.

It's also about lifestyle choices that housing and infrastructure do or don't provide to you.

And I'd like to offer a quick solution uh if I have enough time.

Uh filling out uh about filling out our paper street network in the form of something from our past that is distinctly Durham.

In the triangle, and even the state at large, we are unique in the quantity and character of our alleyways.

Um there's something that I really enjoy walking and biking on.

Uh they're narrow streets that facilitate everything from commercial opportunities that you see downtown um to diverse housing options like ADUs.

They provide safe calm options for pedestrians and cyclists.

They do this while taking up less width and complexity compared to a modern street and at a much lower cost.

Unfortunately, our UDO, both presently and in the new draft, doesn't allow for this distinctly Durham feature to be leveraged and would be a great way for us to fill out our network in a cost-effective manner.

Um taking my neighbor at his word that he doesn't desire to reduce those transportation housing options, uh, and with the proffer of the Greenway, um the Greenway easements, I don't oppose this closure now, but the ball is em is in the city's court to make sure that we continue to build an environment that aligns with our values, whether that's safe streets or affordable living circumstances, these issues are all connected.

And I think that you know if this moves forward, um, which I think I think you should support at this point, we need to facilitate these options through filling out our paper street network.

And I think that this is a model perhaps how we should do these um street closures moving forward.

We should be getting something for giving up City land.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

That's the only registered speaker I have.

This is a public hearing.

Is there anyone else in the chamber who wishes to speak on this item?

Anyone else?

With that being said, I'm going to declare the public hearing closed.

It matters back before the council.

Colleagues, questions, comments, Councilmember Cook.

I just want to say briefly that I really appreciate your work on this.

Um really grateful that you all have been able to come to something that works well for us, and I'm excited to uh, like our speaker has said, uh, make sure that we actually use utilize that and and um get some connectivity going on in that area.

So I just want to appreciate the work that y'all did and staff.

Um that we have a great project in front of us.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilmember.

Councilmember Baker.

Yeah, I uh I was one of the folks that was that was not happy when this originally came to us um and and now I am.

I think we've reached uh the win-win.

Um I don't think that it would have made the city better to close a right of way that leads to a potential future greenway.

Um and now we have uh we are we are closing the potentially vote uh voting to to to close the uh right of way, but we are adding not one but two connections, and I think that that is a key is that it's uh it's adding two connections and not just one.

So it really is a win-win, and it is making the connectivity better in that area.

So I'm I'm happy with with where we've landed on this one.

Thank you, Councilmember.

Councilmember Freeman.

Thank you.

I I just wanted to get the second.

I got Rosedale, but there was another paper street that you mentioned in your neighborhood.

I was trying to keep up.

Um sorry, I've got to read through my notes here.

Um it's Rosedale and Moreland, which are uh to the to the east of the property.

Uh they're north-south uh streets.

I believe um I might get these confused.

Uh Rosedale, I think, actually has like uh essentially a mulched area uh that the neighborhood am I getting that right?

Rosedale is the one that's the factor of course.

Yeah, so it's neighbors have I think cleared it out and it's it's used to to walk through there.

But I do think we'd be better off if like the city could figure out how to do a paved greenway or even gravel or something like that, make it easier for folks to to navigate that a little bit more formalized.

Um that was Rosedale and Moreland.

Thank you.

I really appreciate you spending the time volunteering to bring that type of information forward.

It's important from the neighborhood level to hear folks speaking up on their greenways, and especially when you have alleys in your community, that's helpful.

Um then I do want to also appreciate the applicant.

Um being willing to hear the council's concerns and really try to figure out how to make sure that there was access.

Thank you very much to you and your wife.

Thank you.

Councilmember Cabillo, did you have anything on this?

Councilmember Councilmember Rist.

Thank you, Mayor Pretem.

Yeah, similarly, I just want to thank uh Mr.

Mr.

Hamilton and Ms.

Jackson.

We asked you in August to go back and work on this and address a connectivity issue, and that's exactly what you did.

Um you've done the work.

To me, this is all about abundance, right?

It's like more housing.

It's more connectivity.

We asked for one, and you gave us two, so that's like wonderful.

So I want to really appreciate you for that.

Um I also want to appreciate Mr.

Perlstein on behalf of BPAC for just for being such a like a thoughtful and steady presence on all issues related to connectivity.

It means a lot.

Um this is great stuff.

I think as you said, Mr.

Paddelstein, now it's on us, right?

We've got a we've got to provide the funding.

And as we talked about the break, you all have suggested this, I think, probably back in the 90s, right?

So we just got to find the money at the city here to make that happen, and it's on us.

So thank you so much.

I'm happy to support this.

Thank you.

Thank you for working with staff.

I wish you well in your next chapter.

Mr.

Mayor, did you have anything on this before we have a good?

All right, then.

Colleagues, this uh item requires two motions.

At this time, I'll entertain a motion.

Did I close I close the close the hearing?

I did.

Okay.

Uh requires two motions.

Uh first uh motion, I'll entertain a motion to permanently close a 402 linear foot portion of Cliff Street between Blunt Street and Rosedale Avenue.

So move.

I hear a motion is second.

Madam Clerk, would you please open the vote?

Please close the vote and report out.

Motion passes 7-0.

I'll entertain a motion to amend the place type map of the comprehensive plan to designate parcel identified with read 107722, 1700 Cliff Street as recombined with the former dedicated right-of-way as established residential.

So moved.

Please close the vote and report out.

Motion passes 7-0.

Thank you.

Item 22 is discharged.

Mr.

Mayor, do you want to reassume?

You know what?

I think you're doing a great job, Mayor Pro Tem.

I figured you would.

Uh item number 23 consolidated zoning match.

From the earlier.

Ravenstone commercial.

We'll uh hear from our staff.

Mayor Williams, Mayor Pro Tem Middleton, and honorable council members.

Good late evening.

I am Peyton Burgess with the planning and development department, and I am happy to be here with you tonight.

Before I begin, staff would like to state for the record that all planning department hearing items have been advertised and noticed in accordance with state and local law, and affidavits of all notices are on file in the planning department.

A request for a zoning map change has been received from Jeremy Anderson of Thomas and Hutton for one parcel of land totaling 2.42 acres and located at 5204 Wake Forest Highway.

The current zoning is commercial center with a graphic development plan.

The applicant proposes to change this designation to commercial general with a textual development plan.

The applicant is proposing to rezone the property to allow most uses within the commercial general district.

The properties are currently designated suburban commercial on the place type map.

The proposed commercial general zoning is generally consistent with the designated place type.

Thank you.

Staff and the applicant are available for any questions.

Thank you so much for the report.

I'm going to declare this public hearing open before we go to the gallery and the uh proponent the uh applicant.

I'm gonna yield to my honorable colleagues for any questions or comments they may have on what is uh matter.

All right, seeing none, I'm going to invite the applicant to come up.

Good evening.

Thank you for being with us.

How much time do you anticipate needing, sir?

Just a couple of minutes.

A couple minutes.

Put seven minutes on the clock, please.

Yeah, good late evening.

Uh Mayor uh Williams, uh Pro Tem Middleton and Council members.

Uh Jeremy Anderson, Thomas and Hutton, 2510 Meridian Parkway here in Durham.

Um I'll keep this brief.

I was going to anyways, but uh given the time of the evening.

Um pretty straightforward.

We are uh looking to rezone a commercial property that is landlocked within the Ravenstone Commercial Shopping Center.

Um that shopping center was zoned with a development plan back in 2006, and it's uh this parcel is designated as retail only.

It has sat vacant for about 20 years, 19, 20 years.

Um the developer, the owner is looking just to open that up to general development by changing it from CC with that retail only just to commercial general.

Uh we did uh exclude a list of uses um just based on on you know that that would make the neighborhood a little more comfortable.

We did have two neighboring meetings.

There wasn't much pushback on any of that, but uh that's it.

It's uh we think it sat vacant because it really has limited visibility.

It's kind of behind the shopping center, so um it's not really ideal for retail, so commercial general um to open up the development possibilities for and hopefully um you know develop that new fill parcel.

So with that, I'll uh I'll be here to answer any questions.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

I don't have any speakers sign up for this item.

This is a public hearing.

Is there anyone in the gallery who wishes to speak on this item?

Seeing none, I'm gonna declare this public hearing closed and back before the council.

Colleagues, questions, comments, Councilmember Cook.

Thank you.

I have a couple questions for you, Mr.

Anderson.

Um the first is did you follow up with the HOA about the storm drain?

Not well, we did not follow up directly with them.

I do have uh an answer.

I was wondering if they would be here to to follow up with that question.

Uh the question, if our call was you know, we were were we using their storm drainage to handle our stormwater.

And the answer is right now the drainage comes off that parcel and goes into a stormwater pond that is, I think, for the neighborhood and for the shopping center.

So all the drainage right now goes, there's no way around it.

It goes to this pond that was developed as part of the neighborhood of the shopping center.

Um with future development, we've kind of analyzed it from the engineering perspective, and either we would connect to a stormwater pipe leaving the shopping center, or we would discharge off the low end of our property, uh the sorry the property like a traditional development would, just discharge the property line back to pre-development conditions.

So the water is gonna make it to that pond, but we are we would develop the stormwater on-site independently and not use that stormwater pond for this development, stormwater treatment.

So I think they were concerned we were using that pond, you know, for our use, and we're not.

It's just downstream, and we'll treat stormwater on this parcel in the case.

Is that different than what the food line does?

The food line, I believe, drains to that pond.

And sorry, and you said that y'all were either going to connect a stormwater pipe.

That's where all the water goes, regardless of whether it's connected to a pipe or just drains across the surface land.

It all goes to that pond.

Okay.

I mean, I think the question was whether y'all would would pay for the use of that since they built it or not.

Right.

We wouldn't see we would develop we would contain stormwater on property back to pre-development conditions.

So we wouldn't be using any use of it.

It's really just a downstream stormwater device, uh like a like a stream or a natural pond would be.

It just happens to be a constructed stormwater pond.

There's no way to avoid this water not running into that pond.

Okay.

Um do you mind having a conversation with them again just for for posterity?

Um and then the second thing is um you talked about how unlikely and unappealing it would be to have residential on this space.

Are you all willing to commit to not doing residential since it's so unlikely?

Um I don't think so.

We've just because you're not sure what the development options would be.

Um I say it's unlikely just from experienced land planning, you know, accessing a residential development of 20, 25 units behind the shopping center, literally kind of off the service, or uh most likely this development would share the driveway with the goodwill.

That's where the access easement is.

So it's uh it's unlikely, but we are not willing to strike residential as a possible use.

Okay.

Those are my questions.

Thank you, Councilmember.

Colleagues, anyone else?

All right.

This uh item requires two motions.

At this time, I'll entertain a motion to adopt an ordinance amending the unified development ordinance by taking property out of commercial center with a development plan, Falls Jordan Watershed Protection Overlay District B and establishing the same as commercial general with a development plan, Falls Jordan Watershed Protection Overlay District B.

So moved.

Second.

I've heard a motion and second.

Madam Clerk, would you please open the vote?

Please close the vote and report out.

Motion pass seven zero.

I'll entertain a motion to adopt a consistency statement as required by NCGS section 160D 605.

I have our motion in the second.

Madam Clerk would please open the vote.

Waiting for one more.

Please close the vote and report out.

Motion passes 70.

Thank you, Madam 23 is discharged.

I'll yield to the mayor.

Thank you.

Yes, ma'am.

Um I just was curious if we could maybe do the item 25 ahead of item 24, because it might be more straightforward.

So just was curious if you were willing to do that.

Without objection.

Um colleagues, we will move to item number 25.

Maybe maybe that's not what folks wanted.

Sorry for any of the applicants.

Apologies.

Okay.

I'm sorry.

Would would you yield for a minute, please?

I'm sorry.

On um on the previous vote we just took on number item number 23.

Uh Councilmember Riss has indicated that in the memo, it says there would be three motions for this, and there's two uh appearing on the uh the cover item.

Just want to make sure we've done uh our due diligence for this item.

Yeah, so there's a utility extension agreement involved with this case, so that should have been a motion as well.

All right.

It wasn't on the sheet that I normally I'm going to um uh entertain a motion to adopt an ordinance amending the unified development ordinance by taking property out of commercial center with a development plan, Falls Jordan Watershed Protection Overlay District B, and establishing the same as commercial general with the development plan, Falls Jordan Watershed Protection Overlay District.

No, I'm sorry.

I'm sorry.

You're right.

Okay, I'm reading the wrong one.

I'm gonna entertain a motion to authorize the city manager to enter into a utility extension agreement with Anderson Marlowe.

So move.

Second.

I hear a motion to second.

Would you please open the vote, Madam Clerk?

Please close the vote and report out.

Motion passes 7-0.

My thanks to Councilmember Ritz for the assistance.

Now item 23 is discharged.

We'll move on.

Thank you.

I yield to the mayor.

Thank you.

The next case is consolidated annexation, Wake Olive.

Ready for the staff report.

Are we doing uh 1607?

Uh consolidated zoning map change 1607 East Cornwallis Road, which is the result of the applicant providing the residence breakfast because I skipped number 24.

Thank you, Mayor.

Mayor the man.

Mayor Williams, Mayor Per Tim Middleton, and honorable council members.

Good evening.

I'm Andy Lester with the Planning and Development Department.

It's going to be with you all.

A request for a zoning map change has been received from Neil Ghosh of Morningstar Law Group for nine parcels of land totaling 1.91 acres and located between 1601 and 1625 East Cornwallis Road.

The current zoning is commercial neighborhood with a graphic development plan that allows up to 12,800 square feet, a banking facility, sundry store, laundromat, dry cleaning pickup station, real estate rental office, barbershop, beauty shop, and orchest shop.

The applicant proposes to change this designation to commercial neighborhood with the textual development plan.

The applicant is proposing to rezone the properties to allow for any use within the district except for educational facilities, medical facilities, indoor recreation, outdoor recreation, drive-through facilities, convenience store with gasoline sales, payday lenders, and vehicle sales.

Vehicle service.

The properties are currently designated neighborhood service and the place type map.

The proposed C and D zoning is generally consistent with the designated place type.

Thank you, staff and the applicant are available for any questions.

Thank you.

Colleagues, you have heard the staff report.

Are there any questions?

Technical questions.

All right.

At this time I'll declare the public hearing open.

And I will hear from the applicant.

How much time do you think you need?

Maybe five minutes.

All right.

Please put seven minutes on the clock.

And uh good evening, Mayor Williams, Mayor Pro Tim Middleton and members of the city council.

I'm not sure.

David Mayor.

Uh an attorney with the Morning Center Law Group at 700 West Maine here in Durham.

I'm representing the applicant on this, and thank you, Mr.

Lester, for your presentation.

Yeah, let me start by saying tonight is uh the valley where my family celebrates the triumph of good over evil, of light over darkness, of knowledge over ignorance, um, primarily by cleaning our home, spending time with family, eating good food, and welcoming light and blessings into our home.

Um I know by now I have missed the festivities at home.

Uh I'm sure my wife uh lit some dias with the kids.

But anyway, I want to wish uh each of you and the city of Durham a happy Dewali, and I encourage you all to invite uh the light into your home and into your hearts.

Um rezoning, uh during my career I've come across a few parcels where the zoning was so uh restrictive that it really only allowed for one or maybe a handful of uses, and that's this is one of those cases.

Under the current zoning, the property can be used only for a handful of uses, as you've heard from staff.

So banking, a sundry store, laundromat, dry cleaning, real estate office, barbershop, beauty shop, or gift shop, and that's it.

Um a lot of those uses sound just fine, but the property has been zoned that way since 1981.

Uh the property has also been vacant since then, or probably vacant since before then.

Um that's you know, over four decades it appears the market is spoken.

Probably none of those uses are going to happen on that parcel.

And so really we're proposing to rezone the property basically to add more uses to the list of possibilities.

Really, uh instead of adding more loud uses, we are switching the condition to a list of prohibited uses, which will leave more uses available on the property.

The base zoning district will remain the same, and that's a commercial neighborhood.

Uh we've prohibited school medical facilities, indoor and outdoor recreation, drive-through facilities, gas station, uh payday lenders or vehicle service.

And so that leaves a range of uses, including uh residential, community service, daycare, place of worship, restaurant, but no drive-thru.

Um small-scale retail and services uh or office.

Um we also have added some commitments that are not exactly use-related.

We have limited uh non-residential square footage to 12,000 square feet.

We'll be using native plantings.

We've limited the impervious area to no more than 70 percent of the property, uh, which in this location there is no impervious limitation, so that's uh uh an additional limitation there.

We also are making contribution to Durham Public Schools, and that's regardless of whether it's built out for residential, it's just something that the developer is going to do.

And we added a commitment related to access because uh this was important for the city and in C DOT.

Basically, we've added a commitment that there will be southbound left turn lanes on Cornwallis at the entrances to however this uh property would be developed.

And so there's really not much to it.

It's a case where the old zoning has proven to not be very useful.

It's relatively small and hemmed in piece of property with a lot of road frontage, but actually not a lot of depth.

You know, from a technical standpoint, it's not the best piece of property from a development standpoint, but the zoning obviously has been the biggest challenge here in the last few decades.

The planning commission unanimously recommended approval.

We hope to have your support tonight as well, and I'm happy to answer any questions you may have.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And now I owe some folks breakfast as well.

Just go.

Yep, yep, yep.

Uh Tali, so are there any questions?

Well, let me uh declare I don't have any public speakers.

So therefore I'll declare the uh one moment.

245.

All right.

I don't have any public speakers.

Uh any speakers signed up, so therefore I would declare the public hearing closed back before the council.

Colleagues, any comments?

Yes.

Councilmember Cutton.

I just wanted to see if staff had any more context on the the way that the zoning was set in 1981.

If not on stand, but I just wanted to ask if you for the question.

I think during the 80s and early 90s, there's more of a site-specific type development plan, which sort of um constrained or is set the specific use at a specific location.

So over the years, we've tended to go away from that to allow for flexibility.

Um with those certain conditions, you're locked in unless you go back to the rezoning process.

And are there other sites similarly?

Oh, yeah.

Could be I think it would be a healthy conversation or piece to bring forward a number of those to try and kind of lump them together so they don't have to come forward as individual cases.

I mean, from that long ago if they're still vacant.

Sure.

One of the things that we are thinking about with the new UDO is pretty much eliminating old development plans that have been inactive for X amount of years.

Okay.

Um that year we don't know yet because it's still being um vetted.

Uh but that idea is being worked on in the UDO.

That's good to hear.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Um just a couple of questions for you, Mr.

Ghosh.

Um okay, so these are all kind of tied together a bit.

I'm looking at this plot of land and it's backing up to um townhouses across the street, there's some uh residential as well.

I know that this was really, really restrictive zoning before, um, and now it's sort of like opened up, but it's opened up quite broadly.

So I was curious if there was any interest in having a minimum of non-residential commitment, or maybe like what your thoughts were on having commercial space here so that it would be some accessibility to the folks that are living nearby.

All right.

Yes.

So to be clear, um it backs up to apartments.

Uh I think they might look like townhomes, but they are apartments.

Okay, sorry, I think it says apartments on my um townhouse neighborhood on my place type map.

So sorry.

My bad.

Oh, okay.

I'm just yeah, just that's what it backs up to.

There's residential across the street.

There's also some non-residential across the street.

Um but uh in the couple neighborhood meetings that we had.

Um I would I'll just say there's primarily two things that um neighbors express an interest in seeing being built at this location.

They were daycare.

And residential.

Um so I think the way the property is set up, it is more than likely that it's going to be ultimately built for residential, just because there isn't a whole lot of depth on the on these uh parcels.

There's really just not a lot of room for parking in a building.

So it seems more than likely that this ultimately will turn into residential development.

As far as the zoning opening up, I mean uh uh the the number of uses.

The use list that was uh that's currently on the zoning is really specific, but it is ultimately like retail or services.

That's what it entails.

So those uses would still be allowed.

Beyond that, the new zoning really only adds the office component and the and the residential.

It does allow obviously a lot of other retail uses, but those uses arguably should have been allowed in the first place.

They're just not because of the way the zoning condition was written.

Um I don't I don't know that there's real there's no plan on how this is going to redevelop.

So I think it would be uh I'm not gonna be able to make a commitment to a minimum amount of non-residential.

But also I wanted to put on the record.

I'm not sure that there will be any res uh non-residential bill on this parcel.

That's that's a possibility as well.

You don't think there will be any non-residents?