Sorry for the delay is 338, and we're calling the order the finance committee meeting today, April 22nd 2026.

Are there any announcements?

Okay.

Let's Brian's.

It's a backpack.

Okay, thank you guys for being here today.

We're gonna start with uh overview, and I'll first want to say thank you to um councilman Parkinson for making a spreadsheet for us.

Um it's very nice, and some of the same things that you have in exhibit A is in the spreadsheet, except for the numbers have changed.

What we did, I worked hand in hand with the budget department, and we basically came up with almost the exact same numbers for changing revenue.

So what you have in front of you in exhibit A has some categories that were not that have been taken out of the original budget, not in terms of um replace, but they were basically um placeholders because everything in that category was zero, and we weren't gonna collect that amount of money, so we have eliminated that category from the budget, and so what you have in front of you is a modified uh copy of what we proposed for revenue, and you can make any changes you want to on this.

What we did, we went in and we did every category, and in the categories you see what was the original budget amount, um, what we revised, the actual amount that we've collected, and what we are proposing for 2026.

So we'll run through these categories right quick and let you know.

And if there are any questions, you can answer your questions on the first category, the property taxes.

We didn't change anything.

Okay.

The next category, there were a lot of changes, and you can see the changes in that category.

If you have your first year to date budget report um for uh physical year 2026, basically what we did, we deleted all the zeros, the items that we saw that we were not gonna get close to, we went in and changed, and so like in the original one, I'll just do one category for you, and then if you need anything else, you can look through and ask.

The original one 4215 building permits we had originally budgeted 1,043,929, and you see the actual was uh four hundred and thirty-five thousand fourteen dollars and seventy-six cents.

So, fifteen, but if you have to look back at the one you hit previously.

If you didn't bring that back, you don't have the previous.

Oh, so what for this?

So let me explain it a little different.

If you don't have the previous one, okay, what you'll see is you'll see building, and now building is at 300 and oh well, building is at 929, 928 uh 651.

Okay, 2024.

Right.

We're looking at the actual for that year, okay.

2025, it was 685,309, okay, for 2025, and then revised the same number, then the actual amount that we have taken in is 1,639 215.

Okay.

You see it?

Okay, so why was it so much bigger?

We don't know.

Um, I don't know the answers to why things were bigger or what they were.

As a council, when we got this proposed budget, we should have looked at what was actually taken in and questioned what was bigger than these.

So we have gone in and adjusted the numbers closer to what they really are or what they are projected to be.

So this whole category has been changed down to be what we anticipate it will really be.

The category was originally 1,851 eight hundred and fifty-one four hundred and fifty-four.

We decreased it by 300,000.

Huh?

14.

No, not 425 by itself, the category.

If you look at, do you have your last year-to-date budget report for uh fiscal year 26?

Yes, the one you hit last week.

You got to bring the reports back to make it work.

Okay, you follow me?

So which of which items okay?

I showed him as an example the item with building permits.

When you get to the bottom of the category, the category for uh licenses and permits is one million eight hundred fifty-one thousand four hundred and fifty-four.

You see that the new category is now down to one million five hundred and sixty eight thousand four hundred and twenty-six.

You see it.

Okay, so we decreased it by three hundred thousand.

Why?

Why did we decrease it?

Because these numbers were not being taken in.

If you look at this last report that we had, we looked at the numbers and we went through and we discussed these numbers based on how many permits, etc.

We had gotten we took in in 25, we took in 2 million 491.

Why do we only uh uh proposed 568?

This is 900,000.

Wait a minute.

We took in building, we took we took in 928, okay, and then the next year we did 683, which was 300,000.

Right.

Okay, and I said cat item number three in that category.

Then we budgeted uh amount that we're not gonna get, so that's why we made the adjustment.

All right, but so for the building from the building line, 2025, we took in a million.

Am I reading that right?

So if we took in that much in um 2025, why are we only budgeting 798?

185.

I see what you're saying, but year to date what we have taken in is lower than that number.

A million six.

If we were gonna make a million six, we should be at eight uh eight hundred thousand now.

So if you divide it in half, you got so you 2025.

That's a that's a full year, one million six thirty nine, right?

Wait a minute.

Building permits.

Wait a minute, but these numbers are different than these numbers, a lot different.

So what okay?

I'm not trying to suggest something.

I mean, I'm I'm looking okay.

The numbers that uh Mr.

Jackson and I work were worked with are different than what's on this piece of paper.

No, the proposed the rest of these numbers should have came straight forward.

Yeah, my question is um the proposed uh the 798.

Work who comes up with that number.

How do they really basic?

So something is wrong with these numbers before y'all even go into it.

The numbers you gave us last meeting had 1,043 uh 929, right?

Okay, the next number that you said was collected was 435,014.

Correct.

That's what you said.

That's what you typed on this piece of paper.

So this came from the system um out of the train environment.

So there may be some differences because of that.

The proposed um column is the column that we're actually looking at on no, we can't look at numbers different.

If we look at a number this week and this week it ain't the same, it's something wrong.

Not for actuals for previous years, yeah.

That is not right.

You can't do that.

Then the math is gonna be bad wrong because those are not the same numbers.

The numbers that I called and talked to you with are these numbers.

You write on that because I'm looking at what I talked to him from, and those numbers are not the same.

And I'm not looking at exam exhibit A, I'm thinking they got the same numbers I got in my hand.

I tell you what, is it possible for you to make a copy of this and everybody in here up here get what I wrote on, and we can go forward because exhibit A isn't right anymore.

So the the column for FY26 proposed, 2026 proposed all the numbers that we went over.

My ideal is I don't care.

If you got these numbers over here and you told me these numbers last meeting, this meeting, these numbers have changed.

I don't want to present no numbers that have changed, so it does not look transparent.

And let me give some clarity um a bit of clarity.

The purpose of this report was to um help us see where the FY26 actual revenues would be.

So that's the we were only supposed to use this report for the 2026 column, proposed column.

We were not supposed, we are we've already provided the actuals from our system for 2025.

If the numbers don't match, it don't matter what you provide, they are not the same.

But it yeah, but this is in another system, so it was just to show you.

Yeah, it's not the it was we were just trying to show you.

I don't care what you're trying to show.

They may care.

I don't care.

And I will just say adjourn the meeting until we get the right numbers and come back because I'm not gonna go one week and tell you one set of numbers and come back the next week and tell you something different.

So okay.

So we will uh adjourn our meeting, and when we get together on the numbers, we'll have a meeting.

Oh, I came all the way down here for this meeting.

I don't want to just stop right now.

It doesn't make sense if you got the wrong numbers.

Can I just make that what you want to do with the question?

I mean, it doesn't make sense.

Yeah, I think this is what we just can't.

What I'm passing out is just the same thing.

And then the reason I'm saying that like that, I want to be very respectful.

When we made the budget, the seven of us, the council, we went along with whatever was on a piece of paper.

We really didn't look at the numbers in detail.

Now that we're looking at the numbers in detail, the numbers should be the same from week to week.

This is a whole this is the FR26.

That's a whole separate okay.

Well, we we we can't comprehend the order there yet.

A different document.

Don't change, I mean, you know, about five minutes, just five minutes, right?

Five minutes.

Is that what we have?

Five minutes.

I asked you to take that report that I had in my hand, me and you read them numbers column by column together.

Let me see if I can help.

I you act like we don't understand what you're saying.

What I hear you saying is disregard these other columns.

The only reason that we're showing you this is because we want to pull this, and the report that you pulled in order to get this happens to include the other columns.

Is that what you're saying?

We understand what you're saying, okay?

So it's not like we're being what we're saying is it it does have the other columns, and if it does have the other columns, how could how could a 20 the 2024 actuals or the 2025 actuals be different on one document than another document?

If if they're actual figure, we don't keep separate accounting systems, do we?

Do we have two separate computers offer programs for our accounting?

So what we have is you have several different systems within your within uh title units, you have several different um sections within the same system.

So you have production, which is where we um pour the unit um actuals from and you know all the reports that you all are given.

You also have a test and a train and the train environment, it allowed me to be able to do this um proposal of revenue just to show you all where the changes would be once we made it.

But if I want to know how much for item 001415 building, if I want to know how much has the city spent from that amount in 2025, why would a software program exist that gives me a different number for how much we actually spent if it was in training mode or real life mode or sandbox mode or whatever, we need to know how much we actually expect for that item in in the year.

So we have not made it to those reports, but that's exhibit big expenses.

Well, you can take it to mean living if you it's the same thing, right?

The revenue wouldn't be different.

We understand.

I apologize.

I shouldn't have used expensive.

You should have said revenue, yes.

Yes, but same concept.

Yeah, if I want to know how much we're getting for this item.

The sandbox environment allows train uh people who are training to go in and train in the system, and we are able to we cannot make changes in our live system without you all's approval.

So you should have told me that the format is gonna be different, and then I would have known, and then you wouldn't have given it to me at the last minute, and I would have been able to look at the numbers and tell them the difference in the numbers right now.

It looked like we don't even know the difference in the numbers and the numbers aren't right.

And I asked you point blank, I said you don't change anything in the real document, change it in the so we can see what we are proposing to change, okay?

Parkinson's that made and we could have just told him what categories to take out of the spreadsheet and we could have done it in a spreadsheet which in the previous um meeting I actually had a projection um placed into the um documents that y'all received last uh last week or week before last that have the projection numbers on there as well so you know I could present it as something that comes out of the software or I can present it on Excel.

I know last time we discussed you know using the actual software to present the information so that's what what I actually did I can under I can appreciate that I I hear your point and I think it's well taken that you can't change the in order to have a document that has FY26 proposed revised that's not really revised it had to be in the sandbox mode.

I I can get and I can appreciate that point.

What I don't what I still don't understand is okay so even if you had to be in sandbox mode why does that change FY25 actuals it should so with the actual projections is based off the accounts that's within the projection so for example the big biggest that you're seeing out of this would be applied fund balance which was actually budgeted and FY25's budget which we pulled out applied fund balance within this projection and that's you know and that's only one example of accounts that would be missing out of the sandbox would fund balance be reflected in for example 001 4215 no but that's an example of where the numbers are different and I'm not understanding why those numbers are different in the sandbox I promise y'all I went through the numbers one at a time you got a copy of my copy now only thing I didn't do is take a calculator and add the difference or go into a spreadsheet and add the difference okay I could have easily just added these numbers up one at a time for the change and came out with what we're dealing with.

Yeah I I certainly don't blame you and and frankly I don't blame y'all I mean I I I think it there's a glitch in the in the software package or or something um I'm not trying to be harsh on anyone but but Chairberson Clay I do think you have a valid point that I don't know if it makes sense for us to meet I think we should at least take a resess to see if we can figure out what is what um and that's not to be disrespectful to anyone but we just can't have a conversation without knowing what the numbers are.

Yeah that's that's what you're or bring something up.

So if you look at this sheet we've got this is the next year current your budget uh the um line at the end of the four pages is uh proposed 2026 112 million 329391 so it's I assume that's what we're proposing the revenues to be that is correct okay so um the go back to about 5000 feet and look at this what we need to do is come up with 20 million dollars to get to where we want to be we can look at the these you know with the right microscope if we want to but that's not gonna get us 20 million dollars I understand that but I want you to have the right numbers you want to discuss this particular form because it's you know um not the right format or something we should at some point we gotta start brainstorming about how to come up with 20 million dollars we have to come up with 20 million dollars or we have to decrease our current expenses by 20 million the idea and the way we were running this was we were going to show you what the revenue was okay and the revenue is 112 okay the last meeting we came up with ideas of how to increase the revenue the idea that came up that we could do the um fines and forfeitures and come up with money the auction and then we could do the interest okay the interest I asked them today they still do not have a concrete number on what the interest is proposed to be okay so we can't use anything that we don't know we don't need any more projections because that's why we in the position we're in now so we're working with 112 it we are pretty much sound that 112 is the number that we have already got any ideas on what it's I see okay this report that you're using to compare this as FY26 through the end of March March 31st 2026 actuals there are no 2026 actuals on the report we we gave today this is only 24 and 25 why did you go back to 24 I know we were talking to well again this report was only for the purpose of showing the the

Okay, this report that you're using to compare this as FY26 through the end of March, March 31st, 2026 actuals.

There are no 2026 actuals on the report we we gave today.

This is only 24 and 25.

Why did you go back to 24?

So I know we're talking about again.

This report was only for the purpose of showing the the reduced 2026 budget.

Well we got to come up with 20 million dollars, whether whether regardless of the actuals so last meeting we provided the revenues and this exhibit B and exhibit C show expenses for 2026.

So we all agree we only have 112 million to work with.

Right.

That that part I agree.

That part on the math is correct.

The other numbers just don't show the numbers to see why we reduce the numbers like we reduce the numbers.

But I also do have a question, and I don't think this is going to be enough to get us any more than 100 really significantly, but like let's just for one example, take a look at the word we've been talking about 001 4215.

Okay.

Now if if you if we look at the numbers we looked at, what was it last week or two weeks ago?

You can either look at the separate documents that we had, or I did my best to try to assemble it onto this bridge.

If you look at the same item budgeted this year, we initially had a hair over a million, right?

The first half of this year, we collected 551,000.

The last six months of last year, we collected 506,000.

So if the best way that we know to make projections is to take the first six months of this year and the last six months of last year, if you add those together, you're actually at 1,058,000, which is actually 14,000 more than we initially budgeted.

But on this, we're proposing reducing that revenue to less than 800,000.

So what is the rationale?

And there might be a perfectly good one, but why are we reducing that line item to 800?

Because if we in fact can go up to a million, that's a little bit less than we have to cut.

Okay.

We collected 435,000 14 so far, right?

How much 435 14?

435.

Where are you getting that amount?

From this report last time.

You see it?

Collected actual 400.

So what do you have on your form?

I say 435.

It's it's on this year, YT budget report FY26, 50% report revenue.

So you see it.

What do you have on your spreadsheet?

This one I see 431.

Yeah.

Um what do you have on your spreadsheet?

The numbers not the same, right?

Right.

But payout and um that's sort of what is that?

So deal with numbers that don't.

Like JRA bonds, or action center bonds, or whatever.

So I can have it.

So it comes directly out of debt service.

So we what debt service we paying out of the general fund.

I thought we were we have a lease on the energy lease.

And we have the JRA 2011 pay.

Okay, so how much do we pay for JRA's cost?

JRAP.

Which one?

The one that you print out.

So bottom line, y'all.

We won't we won't spend any more time on that.

We'll work with 112 and look at the fixed expenses today and go through expenses.

So once they answer his uh mr Mr.

Foote's question, look at B.

And we all got the same B.

And look at your expenses and see if anything sticks out, and they can go through finance, we'll go through and uh, but first look at it and see if any expenses stick out to you that can be cut or changed or modified here.

The grants is zeroed out.

That means that we haven't received anything from okay.

Yeah.

So we didn't pay anything.

Okay.

Good.

Okay, thank you.

What's all involved in personal service in administration?

So this um this category would include um salaries and all of the fringes, such as FICA, um health insurance, pension, and Medicare.

And overtime if um anyone made overtime, which the only people within uh administration that makes overtime would be municipal court, and the other services and charges.

This would include um the auditor itself, um travel, any other contractual services, um, bank service charges and treasury, and that's about it.

And if police department, the other service, what that all include as well.

So this will include any contractual services, such as one moment.

So we needed one point four million in the administration.

Uh administration, um department.

I'm still on other services and charges, and we've already used, and you say that's what now that's travel and what else?

This would include the auditors um himself, um bank service charges that deals with treasury.

We haven't went on any travel to be honest with you.

Um this also include the um new digit court system that's being implemented because you're talking about the budget itself, correct?

That wouldn't include that.

That's 311,000 itself.

Um the country um excuse me, the auditor, I believe it's 255,000.

Um the departments made the requested cuts.

No, sir.

Who has not made a cut?

We met with all departments.

Peter Davis and CL.

We met with all departments.

Human and Cultural Services offered a significant cut.

Planning and development brought some cuts.

Am I missing anything?

And the municipal clerk brought some cuts.

If they weren't mentioned, they told us they couldn't cut anything.

So what is the administration gonna do to make it happen?

I'm not sure I understand the question.

Well, that you told you directed the directors to make cuts.

Oh okay, I'm sorry, not understanding the question.

I understand the question.

So what's the solution?

Well, the solution is obviously we've got to do reductions and/or increase revenue regardless.

We do have recommendations on what we feel are redundant positions that will touch on several departments.

Because we are paying a disproportionate amount of that.

So we would suggest you you um we can present with uh to the council redundant positions that the administration feels are not necessary to proceed, and we can also present some revenue figures on how various um if there was an increased co-payment or payment towards health insurance would help.

Those would be two things we would ask you to consider uh immediately.

I say ultimately from an administration standpoint, if we had a magic answer, we were presented to you.

Um I don't think the directors, despite repeated conversations between the CFO, myself, and directors have embraced the fact that there simply isn't enough money for what was budgeted.

I think y'all are a lot more realistic about where we are than most of the department directors.

Uh this account 080 uh personnel, is that HR?

Yes, sir.

How many folks are currently working in HR?

I believe 15.

15.

Yes, sir.

I have a question.

That would be a department that if I was bringing you proposed reductions, um, the HR director would would say that she can't function without anything less than that.

I would suggest cutting that uh department by between a third and 40 percent.

Because years ago when we had more employees, we had fewer people working, right?

Yes, sir.

So at one time we had 2250 employees in this city.

That would have been um councilman Hartley, councilwoman Lachey Brown Thomas, y'all were working for the city when we had that.

Good old days.

And um uh President Grizzell uh by memory, we had seven people in HR at that time.

Uh, two of them being Deborah Ellis and Deborah Whitehead, who we brought back out of retirement to help us currently.

And then um we had Denise McKay, uh, Janois, Marilyn Latson.

That's five of the seven right there that I've just named.

So um I've had that discussion with the HR director.

She is adamant she needs all her personnel.

I'm sure she will make the same case to the council.

Uh I strongly believe that that is a department that could use some reduction and improved efficiency.

So who gonna make the cuts?

Do we need to make the cut or y'all gonna make the cut?

Well, we can't make the cuts because we don't have the legal authority to do that.

We can bring you recommendations on where you can again save money, reduce positions, or increase revenue, but we don't have the authority, nor does the mayor to just do it.

So more than happy to bring y'all the recommendations.

So y'all want us to do it?

Well, it's not us wanting you to do it, Mr.

President.

The law requires you.

So we will have impressive us from doing it.

Right.

We're prohibited.

Again, we can bring you recommendations.

I want to make that clear.

If you want us to bring you those recommendations on redundant positions or other things like that, the CFO and I will do that.

We've had those discussions amongst ourselves for some amount of time.

We don't have the legal authority to do it.

I got it.

Madam Chair.

Okay.

This report, you've already cut what you think needs to be cut, right?

You just got them in categories.

Yes, ma'am.

So um that report right there is actually the second half of um expenses for FY25.

I did the same thing we did with the revenues with the um first half of FY26 and the second half of FY25 to give you an explanation of the possibilities of what happened in the second half.

So these are all the categories of expenses that are in our regular budget.

Yes, ma'am.

Okay, just want to make sure.

And the whole book, this is all the categories.

Exhibit A is the only place we where we have actually made cuts.

Right.

I understand.

And that's just revenues.

We have not presented any proposed cuts.

So every expense in the city that we have in general that comes out of general fund, it's on these pages.

Yes.

All right.

Uh, madam chair, if I may.

Um, Mr.

Taylorson, can we get those recommendations by Monday?

I think we can do that, yes, sir.

Okay.

Uh, is the mayor's office in here.

No.

So the mayor's office would actually be part of the general government um department.

That would also include clerk of council, city council, legal.

Well, the the clerk of council office made cuts.

Um, but I just everybody's gonna have to make some changes here.

Everybody, whether they want to or not.

Hella high water, we got to make some very weighted decisions here.

And we now know that the council will have to make these cuts.

All right.

Um we got to get better with this budget.

And we can't, like I pulled out everybody's salary.

We got folks here I've never seen before, and we're gonna have to make these cuts.

Point blank, period.

This is a even go back to HR.

We have a lot of technologies.

We don't need 15 people working, and we got a lot less people working in this city now.

So we gotta make the cuts.

Um everybody is top heavy.

Everybody.

Now, I ain't I'm not trying to touch the first responders just yet, but everybody's gonna have to make cuts.

Um, and I'm asking that the administration to put that on people's mind because we're almost hit into another fiscal year, another round of budget conversation, and nothing has been really we've made no progress.

And you know, I'm can I say this now before you say anything?

I think we have a misunderstanding.

There are other expenses, like these phones and all this stuff.

I want them to be able to see where these categories, I don't want what you got summarized.

That's why I keep asking.

You got phones over here and and how much they are, okay?

So we need to know that before we go cutting just salaries or whatever.

And this says supplies, I understand that.

But we need to know what's who has a fuel usage, who has this, this.

You see what I'm saying?

Madam Chair, I'm glad you brought that point.

I I was not done.

I will I I'm starting to cook, okay.

Um who needs 25,000 in you got 15 people working, but you need 25,000 in supplies.

Like that's you gotta make it make sense.

You see what I'm saying?

And so um the fuel car, we need to know where the fuel usage is.

We know JPD and JFD need fuel, but we gotta start parking some of these vehicles.

We gotta take the take, in fact, take these gas cars in because I still hunt it.

I'm still hunted by the fact I saw a city vehicle up in Philadelphia, Mississippi parked at a house.

And it was under the last administration, but I saw it.

And again, it's unfair.

We're elected officials, we don't even get a vehicle, we don't even get a gas car, we don't even get reimbursement, and we're using our own vehicles, and so we got folks improving their own lifestyle off the city's money, and we cannot continue to do that.

Cell phones, insurance, we need to look at more contributions, even if we got to pay a little bit more.

We we gotta look at this stuff and we need to do it deliberately and soon.

Thank you, Mr.

Shea Brown, she raised her hand first.

And just to add on what um Councilman Gazelle said, I I agree with you, but also I feel like you said you don't want to mess with first responder, not the people that actually go out, but that top heavy, it needs to be trimmed completely.

It's too many people just walking around taking pictures, making God's know what.

So it needs to be trimmed.

We can't afford to put the cameras up, but we can afford for folks to drive and do all the other kind of exactly it's got to make sense.

And we know that public safety is a priority.

Yes, got 22 cameras sitting on the floor over there.

So, Mr.

Foote, and then we're gonna go through and we're gonna look at this because I think it's unfair for us to use this to say what we're doing here, and it makes no sense because you're not looking at phones, you're not looking at gas, you're not looking at computers, you're not looking at nothing but people on this sheet of paper.

And that's why I asked you if you had already made the cuts.

Can I ask questions?

Yes, sir.

Okay.

Uh Mr.

Davis, you'd mentioned the the health insurance.

So um, I think we do have a Cadillac health insurance plan.

We may need to go back to a Buick Health Insurance Plan.

And um, so my question is the I guess the question would be how much we're spending with our Cadillac plan right now, and what if we um is do you have a dollar number on that?

This is total payroll for all the people.

I'm talking about the families and all that.

I don't have that number off the top of my head.

I know overall for insurance, health insurance, we're spending slightly north of 15 million dollars.

So if we wanted to try to save um 5% or 10% of that, let's say 10% for for purposes of of um the exercise, that would be a million and a half dollars.

What would that mean?

What how much would we change the deductible to 10% or what?

How would that all right?

We currently have a health insurance contract.

We are not going to be able to renegotiate terms with United Healthcare under that contract.

Only thing we do at this time is raise employee contributions to offset what we're paying for premiums because the city subsidizes 100% on the employee and 85% or so on the families.

We're also at the same time working on an RFP to put out to solicit new health insurance quotes.

We have united health care through the end of next year, but we're doing that this year to solicit a more competitive quote when it was last put out.

They did a three-tier system.

Nobody recommends doing a three-tier health system.

We hear you all in all this.

You have immediate needs and you have other things that can be fixed over time.

Insurance is not one you're gonna fix over immediately unless you raise the employee contribution.

Yes, you can.

Okay.

I mean, you legally do it, you may not want to do it for other reasons.

I understand that, but you also shouldn't go cancel your health insurance plan because you don't like it because you don't have an alternative plan.

Yeah.

This is what I'm gonna say.

Health insurance, we need to look at that's something down the road, y'all.

Our immediate concern is the 20 million, okay.

When we do our new budget, whoever's in charge of it, look at health insurance and look at those options.

Right now, we need to look at what we can do between now and the time we have to have our amended budget corrected, and those are fixed expenses.

We need to get the expenses.

If you all have your budget books, we need to go in our budget books and look at these costs and look at what we can do.

We don't need to list look at this.

We do need to look at personnel.

I know we want to cut personnel, or we definitely want to cut redundant positions.

There's no doubt.

Nobody wants us to have redundant positions, nobody wants us to be top heavy and paying just for having things.

We need to look at what we're really doing and look at the fixed expenses, which I asked you guys to bring, and these are these right here.

The fixed expenses on the sheet, okay.

I got another question.

Okay, so those fixed expenses are fixed, okay.

What page is that on?

The exhibit D.

D.

And anything can be changed, even though it says fix anything can be changed, okay?

So I don't want you to say that Tina Place said fixed mean we can't change, but fix the things that remain constant based on what we are doing right now.

So we need to look at these, incorporate these into what we are changing and change where we can change.

And so the purpose today was for us to look at fixed expenses and come up with where this balance at 112 million dollars.

And that's what we're working with, 112 million dollars.

So if I'm looking at uh exhibit D, and I go down here in the insurance and risk management, it says insurance city match, and it's got uh fiscal year 25, it was 13 million four hundred seven.

Is that correct?

And then so this number seven million forty-seven, is that so far this year?

So if we if we uh decided to um reduce that by 10% between now and the end of the year, between now and September 30.

So what we so think the thing is you can't you can't reduce the amount of pain of of our contract, but you can raise the amount that we're offset the amount.

Oh, so this is the the money that's being paid to the insurance company, correct?

And the revenue so we would reduce the not the payment to the insurance company, but we would reduce um or increase the what we take from the employee employees.

Okay, all right.

Um to answer your earlier question about the balance of the JRA bundle, that balance is two million eight eighty-seven eight hundred.

Um it ends in the last payment is due June of 2020 2031.

So if we can get them to sell a property, we could take the money from the sale of a property and just pay off their bet debt, couldn't we?

Two million.

We sell those properties because they got 90 properties.

Yeah.

You need to look at the real value of the properties.

But I know that I'm just saying, hey, we open for everything.

So at this point, is there any discussion of any expense other than health insurance and salaries that we need to look at as a council before we get back together?

Madam Chair, I would love a breakdown.

Like you have here in the in the budget book, a breakdown of where we currently are on all expenses.

And that's what I asked for.

From the rooted to the tutor, cell phones, gas, everything.

I don't care if it's 90 pages, I would love to see it.

I will get that to the clerk today.

Thank you.

On cell phones, so we have been digging into cell phones because we do have a large number of cell phones in the city.

Turns out we also have a number of places, community centers and gyms that have no fiber for a landline.

And so we have cell phones that are technically assigned to actually at a location.

Um, and so we're exploring those options as well.

Um, and I know people don't want to talk about employees, but many of these costs, whether it's a fuel man card or a phone, are tied to employees.

And we certainly are working to reduce our footprint and reduce our overhead.

Um, but when we look at look at fuel man, that's not gonna get us enough money supposed to get by itself.

I understand that.

And you say when you look at few men, we haven't seen fuel man, so we can't make an informed decision in terms of where we are and where cuts need to be made.

I I so I get that.

The thing is, everyone working for this city needs to understand that we are facing a weighted reality.

We are at a crossroads and we have to make cuts.

And Mr.

President, I can't say enough personally how much I appreciate you saying that because I feel like I have been the voice in the wind saying this.

I have literally said to every director, I'm the only person who has nothing to cut because I only have one assistant.

I'm much like y'all are as council members, you have one to help you as an assistant.

And I've repeatedly said the only person who has nothing to cut, but if you look at the budget for the CAO office, I've got unfilled positions, which I didn't fill.

Um I have money for travel and organization professional dues, I've spent none of it.

So I appreciate you as a counsel echoing what I have been trying to say as the CAO, that this is real and that everybody has to feel some pain.

And if I didn't think it was real, I would have A, asked for a larger salary last year when I was confirmed, and B, I would have immediately moved to staff my office so I could be more productive than myself and one assistant.

So again, I appreciate the council saying what it's saying.

I can assure you the CFO and I are trying to get this message across.

And quite frankly, the directors and the employees of the city have to understand that the seven of you and those of us in the room working with you are trying to do several years worth of budgeting in a short amount of time because the council has not been provided over the last few years, the accurate detailed information we're now trying to provide you.

And look, there's some fits and starts.

We'll admit that.

And we will bring you recommendations that we see um as redundancies, and I fully acknowledge when we bring those, I'm gonna have some people in the administration pitch with me for bringing those.

But I'm gonna stand by anything I bring you as a recommendation as something I feel promotes efficiency in the city while encouraging a um a proper balancing of the budget.

And I think that it'll be beneficial to get the recommendations from the administration, because if you want the seven of us to put our heads together and just start cutting stuff, it's gonna be bad.

We've cut our own travel, we haven't been anywhere.

Right.

Usually we'd be gone, you know.

We even decide between NLC and MML because those are most expensive uh travel days, but everybody's gonna have to pick it up.

And honestly, if you have a director that is insubordinate or is not trying to comply to do this hard work, this heavy lifting, then it might need to start with them.

Okay, question.

Okay, this is this is from the um exhibit B.

City of Jackson fiscal year 2026 general fund 50 percent expense report.

Okay, so if you go on page one, um let's just go for it, certain sake of discussion.

Go down to the police department personnel services, and the budgeted original appropriation budget was for 30 million eight seventy-six in salaries 452, and through the first six months, I guess because slots weren't filled, the salary was paid out, was 13 million 730, which is only 44 percent.

So the fact that that uh there was a um savings, if you want to call it that, of a million two hundred and you know, seventy thousand dollars.

Um is that can that be applied to that 20 million dollars budget shortfall?

Because we didn't spend as much money as we budgeted on JPD.

Okay, now then if you go to the next page, um the on public works, it's got um the personnel service salaries budget was um budgeted for 11,494,000 for the year, but over here only year to date expended for the six months was four million two fifteen, which was only thirty six percent of what was expected.

If I'm reading this number right, that's right.

So that's a instead of um expected five uh five and a half million, it was four point two million applied to that two million twenty million dollars.

Yes.

Okay.

Okay, so that can be applied to the 20 million.

Okay.

However, okay, this is the 11 million four ninety-four is the one thirty the 135 million dollar budget.

So you're 36% of the 135 million dollar budget, not the 120.

Sure.

I'm but I'm my point is real number that's looking at real numbers.

This is this is real numbers that in other words, there was a savings there in the first six months for those departments.

Uh those are the big ones, but you got municipal clerk, there's in anywhere where they've got um the percentage is below 50 percent on personal services, you've got some salaries you've you haven't spent that you had budgeted for, and um uh let's see, and planning and developments, it's 43 percent personnel is 41 percent, it's 31 percent.

Um, so there's some salaries if I'm reading this correctly that that savings that we can get closer to the 20 million.

Okay, thank you.

All right, appreciate that.

And of course, those may there might be that may change if we hire a bunch of people in the next.

Well, we can't hire a bunch of people in a situation we in.

Has the thank you, uh Madam Chair, has the list of retirees who are paying their insurance been updated?

You know, we had a little issue with retirees.

Uh some weren't paying anything, some weren't paying enough, and then we had the little snafu allegedly.

My understanding is that um list is indeed current, as I've worked with uh Deborah Whitehead on that.

Um and you are correct, Mr.

President, that when the um SNAFO occurred, there was obviously some inaccuracies.

Um I would say the accuracy of the list now is 95%.

I'm not gonna say 100 because there may be a name or two, but I feel comfortable that that list is there, and people are continuing to move off of our insurance on the Medicare when they're eligible because of course the Cobra payment for insurance for retirees pretty highly high.

Okay.

Are there any other questions about expenses?

Mr.

Hartman working up on that the grants department is also within general government.

I will uh make sure I um bring the breakdown.

Well, I will actually email you all the breakdown of all the accounts within um each department.

And the uh also the liaison person in finance.

That is within um administration.

Okay, can you pull together something on that as well?

I've got a message to the it's not his own division, but it's um within the um office of the director within administration.

I get them messages, that person making sixty seven thousand dollars and so I don't have medical leave.

I don't know.

I'm just you know well, and I think we have a recommendation on that position.

Okay, thank you, sir.

Okay, and I want to make this clear because we're not trying to unemployed people.

I want to make that very clear.

But there are redundancies of positions within the city, and again, I will present the list and I'll put the target on myself, but we have studied it and we are convinced that there are several dozen redundant positions.

That number will, if approved by the council, would yield seven figures in permanent savings going forward because these are positions that we would not recommend refilling in the future.

We know things like firefighters, first responders become vacant and get refilled.

We expect that.

Same with certain public works positions.

What we have spent our time talking to each department director and going through their personnel line by line is to determine where the redundancies are.

And I will we said we'd have that to you by Monday.

We have to get to a point of recovery.

The city has fallen to a black hole over a few administrations.

We have to get to a point of recovery, and because of that, we're gonna have to make some very hard decisions.

We got friends and folks in all of these departments.

Yes, but we have to make some hard decisions.

And this is 2026.

The technologies are not the same that they were in the 80s.

So if we're not gonna make these cuts, and we need all these people working, we go back to dot matrix printers.

I agree with you about the technology, et cetera.

At the same time, we need to look at what we do in contracts and what we do with outside people.

Especially with as many contracts that come through the city of Jackson.

So let's just think about what we do.

And when we get the list, look at it and see what the positions are and see where they are.

And we it's gonna be a hard job, I agree, but we need to look at it and stay open-minded, because it may be something that we're not looking at that we can do and come up with some money real fast.

That's why I think they should just they should be able to justify.

Yeah, and and I agree with that uh line of conversation.

Uh look, we're here today.

Okay, we were here last night.

Council council, council is working over time.

We need to see the same type of dedication out of all the employees.

If you want your job, you need to be working.

If you're just walking around with a clipboard, that doesn't cut it.

Not anymore.

So we want the departments to take some good deep looks at their processes and their performance.

We want everybody sweating, okay, when it comes to their work.

Show up on time, go to go home on time, work, work on your own over time.

We ain't paying you.

But you got to show that you're dedicated to these positions and rebuilding our city.

And if you're not doing that, those where we that's where we start the cuts.

Okay, can I make another point?

Okay.

The other the other thing that I might recommend is that the administration create an email account and invite any city employee who has recommendations for where they can see savings, because some of the folks at the ground level have very good insight on where they see maybe waste fraud abuse or where we can get some more efficiencies.

And I bet we can easily get a million dollars just maybe a little bit here, a little bit here, a little bit here at that time, and allow employees to make suggestions without their direct supervisor being aware or anybody, but just a line that maybe only you can see, only a limited number of people, and you'll provide us a summary.

We don't need to see everybody's business, but create an email where we can get direct feedback from the many, many hardworking, dedicated, insightful employees that we do have that are real boots on the ground and are seeing what they're seeing.

And that's to follow up on that, Mr.

Tableson.

I had suggested months ago, some type of suggestion program, something we need to evolve.

And we can only do that with especially that look the lower ranks giving that input.

They see stuff every day.

That's why I believe that uh history distorts a lot of accomplishments of a lot of people, because we were out there bidding stuff and other folks got to take the credit for it, but we were trying to make it easier and more profitable for things to happen.

So that's where I see a lot of our folks, we gotta dig in and get their recommendations.

They know better.

Mr.

Foot.

Okay.

Before you go there, Mr.

Councilwoman Clay, you brought up contracts several times.

If you have particular contracts, let me know what we should be looking at.

We're always looking at contracts.

For example, we certainly we currently use a software program.

We use about 2.2.3 million dollars worth of software every year.

Okay.

We currently use a software program in the planning department only that costs us 215,000 a year.

We have gone out and invented a competitor software that will be used not just in planning, but also in public works, and also give us vehicle tracking.

We can save $75,000 a year.

So again, that doesn't fix this year's budget, but we're looking at every contract for again redundancies and cost savings.

And we will be bringing you that software, that's one software contract with an approved option next month and asking you to consider that.

But if there's a specific contract, I know that copyers have been one, so that's always in my mind.

But if there's something else, I've taken software as one of my pet peeves, because I think we spend way too much.

We spend 2.3 million a year on software that's disproportionate to what other cities spend.

That's a larger percentage of our budget than places uh spend.

So we can do better there.

And some of that software can't even get us the right data.

I I would dare say probably half of that software doesn't give us the right data.

I I have another question.

If you just can't ask it fine, but oh I'm sorry, go ahead, Ms.

But madam chair.

The so I'm back on this um report fiscal year 2026 general fund, uh 50 expense 50 percent expense reports.

If you go down to the bottom line here, I've been looking at the payroll, but uh which I think is there's um a lot of um accrued savings we already have against this 20 million dollar deficit.

But if you look over here on the bottom line of that page on page three, um it says original appropriation 135 million dollars, which is what we're that was what we budgeted.

All right, so that's where that's what we budgeted a million-five five twenty-three, two one-four.

Okay, and then you go over here to year to date expended for the six months 54 million, 331, 866, or 42 percent of the 50 percent that was budgeted.

So if we just do the same thing for the next six months, that comes in at 108 million dollars.

So I would suggest that the first thing might just knee-jerk reaction.

I haven't looked, I don't know the details, but we'll just say initiate a hiring freeze today.

I thought we had that.

No, we do have a hiring freeze.

We have been only hiring for necessity throughout this budget year.

Okay, we have actually um assuming the numbers are correct.

I'm gonna put that caveat out there, but we asked HR to provide us the number of employees that were active at the beginning of the fiscal year and the number of employees today.

We've shed about a hundred employees who have separated for whatever reason, either termination or voluntarily, and not refill those positions.

So we have been on a hiring for necessity only.

You're supposed to send a memo to the CAO justifying why you want to hire.

Now, some of those are pretty easy.

If you've got police officers, I'm not gonna stand in the way of that.

Again, if there are public works crews, I've repeatedly told Director Anderson, a deputy director Caldwell, if you need to hire people to cut grass, we know that's a priority.

So those are the things that we have done.

The CFO and I have done what we feel we have the legal power to do to contain that and keep that spending down.

Okay, so the the encumbrance line, which I what exactly is the encumbrance line?

Um 2 million 701 is what it's got.

What is it?

What is that?

What is that?

Is that money that we owe somebody that we can't spend or what?

Yes, that is money the departments have already um put into either they've come over for a contract or there's a purchase order.

So that would mean that's money that is was uh uh committed to during the first half, but it hadn't been spent yet.

Yes, it has not been paid out.

Okay.

Uh so that we have to have we'd have to take that into account as well.

But I mean, this looks to me more achievable than what I was thinking when before when we started this exercise two weeks ago.

I mean, uh the hiring freeze would be critical to now you're not that you know I know that people are policy and everything else, but um as far as trying to get under the uh 112 million mark hiring fees would be one of the first tools I would employ to do that, accomplish that.

That's just my opinion.

That's true.

And if you take the 57 and multiply it by two, we only over two.

Well, I was just I was just about to go there just to underscore Mr.

Foot saying if you add the year to date expended, the 54 million, and even if you add uh the incumbents, which is just under three million, and then you multiply that by two, the amount is 114, which is a hair over and reason to think is there a reason to think we shouldn't just double it.

Like, is there a reason to think that there's yes, there's a reason you should think that there are some.

I I don't think that the second six months of the fiscal year expenses are identical to the first six months.

I think they're slightly more, but I think y'all are thinking correctly.

Bless you.

Last year you budgeted 133.

The city only spent 125.

All right.

Yeah.

So we also should give you and to the team kudos because uh you have been careful with spending this thus far, which is why we're not entirely up a creek.

Right.

So we need to continue.

And so we got a pass.

Great.

Exactly.

I was gonna say, so the 23 million on paper, as y'all now understand, is not 23 million in reality that we have to fix because we've tried to hold the line on spending throughout this fiscal year, as you now see the results, and we will continue to hold the line.

Having said that, we still have to do some things for permanent fixes going forward, because we need to prioritize, you need to make sure your priorities are met in the next fiscal year budget.

We are still gonna recommend, even with where we are now, reduction of redundant positions, and looking at the in contributions for health insurance.

Those need to be regardless.

We shouldn't always count on being able to hold the line on spending the way we have this year, especially if there's some emergency, we have some great amount of overtime, natural disaster.

We we got a month's worth of public works overtime or two months or whatever.

Well, one of the things I would say is that one thing I think we ought to be uh particularly um vigilant on is the fuel man cards with with the exploding price of gasoline.

Yes, there would be potential for abuse there that we can get those under control, that would help you know mitigate spending.

You you you mentioned uh we talk about insurance.

This pending agent insurance insurance agent deal.

How much is that worth?

The consultant.

Uh-huh.

Okay, there's not an agent.

Make sure we're not we're not recommended hiring agent.

Yes.

The consultant would have um worked through the end of the year and we would have capped that at 90,000.

We feel councilwoman, let me finish speaking, please.

We feel that there uh, and again, I gotta rely on the people over there who I think are credible.

We think there's probably a half million uh dollars in savings that are out there either in pharmacy savings or in things that United Healthcare is contractually obligated to do but not doing, such as subrogation recovery and other things.

I I get that.

I don't should go too deep down in rabbit hole here.

And I apologize.

No problem.

Let me put one bow.

You know, council councilwoman councilwoman clay.

Hold on, don't don't take my time.

Councilwoman Clay is one of the top ranking insurance agents in this country.

I sold whole life in A D and D for a short period of time.

Why do we need a consultant to go shop for insurance?

We're not saying we need a consultant to shop for insurance.

We're saying we need a consultant to help us identify where the current contractual partners we have are not fully doing their part on the country.

Why do we need somebody to come in and show us how to save when you got people over there who can because it's not a lot of work to do?

Why do we need somebody over there or hire somebody to come in and show us how to save a dime when we all ow?

Well, we all know how to save a dime.

I think there are certain things about how the pharmacy and medical claims process works.

I mean, you got your PBMs, you got all that.

I get that.

But I don't think it's as taxing as folks are trying to make it seem.

And again, that's a $90,000 contract.

We're already talking about cutting positions and you know, uh uh eating up a lot of.

Yes, we cut positions and hired a rate consultant.

When we had seven people, we did have a consultant, Ed C Vioc, if I remember the name correctly, who was out of mobile, was the consultant for years.

And we got more bang for our buck having a consultant to our health and dental plans than we did having more employees.

When was that?

That would have been through Mayor Melton and Mayor Johnson.

So we have technology improvements since then, right?

Sure.

Okay, so that goes back to my point.

Again, you have one of the top agents in the whole country sitting right here.

I've been out of the insurance business for a minute.

It's not making sense.

Well, I think you're I think you're conflating agent with somebody who is a specialist at identifying the flaws of the claims from the city.

Um not because again, anybody can look at savings.

We can all say, hey, you have a checklist, this, this, this, and this, and this.

We're getting this, we're not getting this.

These people are offering this.

You know what I'm saying?

Well, Mr.

President, we can respectfully disagree.

I hear what you're saying.

Our current agents that y'all didn't hire, weren't doing anything to help us identify these savings.

We know that.

We now don't have that agent relationship.

We still have the contract that we're operating under, and we're putting together a proposal to see if we can get a better contract.

Our goal is to do that, and we're doing that regardless of whether you allow us to hire a consultant or not.

I just think at some point the city of Jackson needs to come together and think about what we say and do.

We need to train the workforce we have.

We need to make available resources, huh?

You're preaching to the choir.

We we don't the three of us who are right here trying to work through this with you, do not disagree with anything you are saying.

I understand we need a workforce that 80 to 90% of the workforce shows up every day as councilman Hartley says and puts in the same effort that y'all do as council members, the same effort that Mr.

Jackson, CFO Carwell, myself, we're in the hood building at night.

I tell you safe downtown because we're there at night.

I understand.

So we're with you on these things.

I just think I'm gonna say this.

I think out of the city of Jackson needs to close for a half a day and let temps come in.

And we have some kind of retreat as a city, appreciation and training to say what we're looking for.

Because most of the time when we hear something, it's like a sheet em up.

They don't do this, the customer service is bad, this, this, this, this.

But I think at some point, if we say we appreciate you, here we are, we all send in this auditorium like new orientation, and everybody is in here, and we don't have a dog and pony show.

We pick from the bottom up and let them express what they think about their work environment, et cetera.

What to make it better, blah, blah, blah, and have like you doing the rising Jackson, you just get you some boards and put them out there and have a vision and let everybody in here have a vision, have what he was talking about, the email.

You should have that at all times where they can say this is what's going on in this department and feel safe to be able to say.

I think we'll have a lot better workforce, a lot of more people be working, et cetera.

When this morning we went out to Presidential Heels to look at a ditch, we saw everything you can imagine in that ditch from mattresses on, and people say, Oh, they just don't.

They do this, they do that.

But the reason people do it, when you look at that ditch and you see how bad it looks, you say if I dump it in here, it doesn't matter anyway.

It's already bad.

So at some point we need to change our image, and I don't know the solution.

Maybe it's hire um somebody that's a professional in motivation, et cetera, to come in here.

It doesn't need to be somebody from the city, but we need to take those dollars.

That's the one time I'm gonna be in favor of you getting the contract and doing something, letting somebody come in.

But um, I think as a as however many employees in the city, I think we need to do it all at one time.

Like they bust them down to the uh Coliseum as teachers, we need to bust them down to wherever we're gonna take them and everybody leave their car and be happy for half a day and be happy.

And we can do it with a temp service.

I mean, it wouldn't cost that much to have a temp service dance.

Really do it like that because you gotta have some police who are on call.

You got some fire who are on call.

We hear you, but you're talking about organizational cultural change.

Organizational cultural change does not happen overnight.

I think we are collectively since October one implementing organizational cultural change.

I'm sorry if it's not as quick as the public or the rest of us would like.

And we need to continue to keep hammering home that we don't ease up on the change, but it's not gonna happen overnight.

It's never gonna happen overnight.

But we can take the fish book, we can take everything, but at some point there has to be a change.

We agree, and that's why I've been talking about the budget since I got here.

I would love to talk about something else to CAO other than the budget.

We are happy to be the city council.

We just misunderstood our job doing the budget because we should have never done the budget how we did it, and we will never do it like that again as long as I'm on the council.

We are all take a part in doing it, and we all have a part in deciding these expenses.

So, with that being said, any more questions or we are adjourned.