Good afternoon.

I want to call the special investigative committee on JEA to order.

Let me begin by introductions to my far left.

Let me say I've had a bad cold for several days, so my voice is a little off, but uh I'll get through this.

Colleen Hampty, Council Research.

Harry Stephopolis, Office of General Counsel.

Brian Parks, Council Auditor's Office.

Kim Taylor, Council Auditor.

Jason Thiel, City Council Legislative Council.

Good afternoon, Rory Diamond, District 13, the beaches.

Ron Salem, group two at large.

Terrence Freeman at large, group one.

Michael Boylan, District 6, just visiting.

Mike Gay, District 2.

Good afternoon, Chris Miller, at large group 5, just visiting.

Good afternoon, Matt Carlucci, just visiting at large group four.

Randy White, District 12.

Okay.

Ms.

Pittman got stopped by a train.

She's on her way, which should be here momentarily.

Okay.

Let me uh let me make some comments on the uh on the JEA survey.

Um had uh I've had some discussions about uh from a couple of different entities about performing the survey.

Um hopefully when we come back uh after the break, we'll have something more official to announce in a specific entity that will be performing the survey.

Um we've got the number of people.

I I've had people that are not part of the 150 roughly that work in the building that are out in the field that wish to participate, which adds a challenge to us, in addition to some ex-employees that want to participate.

So we're trying to work through a system that we can keep those groups separate, but yet still obtain uh information from them.

And uh as I said, we hope to have something more concrete to present at our next meeting on the survey.

Um let me now go to public comment.

I have one card from uh John Baker.

Mr.

Baker, I'll give you three minutes up at the podium, please.

Is the microphone on it's can somebody.

There you go.

It's on now.

My name is John Baker.

My address is 3710 Richmond Street, 32205.

I am a member of the JEA board, but I come as a as a citizen on my own account today.

There have been allegations that there is a toxic and racist workplace at JEA.

It is the JEA's board's duty and responsibility to investigate it, and we have announced that we will conduct an independent survey run by professionals that are clearly unbiased in this matter.

Then we will take the appropriate action to rectify any unsatisfactory issues.

Thank you.

I respectfully implore you to work with JEA on this matter.

The JEA board has the responsibility and authority to handle personnel matters, and we are initiating that right now.

I would hope you would delay your survey until you see the results of our internal investigation.

For you to run a separate simultaneous survey based on calls from disgruntled employees, is a surefire way to split this city right down the middle and do harm to its most valuable asset.

JEA is an independent authority for a reason.

And our board, present company accepted, are experienced in running large organizations and dealing with complex personnel issues.

Give us a chance to do our job.

And if you think there is something improper or insufficient in the path we choose, ask the inspector general to intervene.

But please don't create dueling surveys that can do nothing but split the community and JEA.

Thank you very much.

I spoke to Mr.

Baker at length this morning.

We've uh agreed to have a continuous dialogue as this process moves forward.

And uh I I committed myself to doing that.

Um the second card is from John Nooney.

Mr.

Nooney, you have three minutes.

All right.

Hello.

I am John J.

Nooney.

Jacksonville City Council Resolution 2023 0819.

I'm in City Council District 4, CPAC, Planning District 3, School Board District 3.

And you know, I want to start off by just saying something here.

You know, I went to an ethics commission meeting and asked.

We have six CPACs representing the entire city of Jacksonville.

We have the mayor's disability council.

We have the council on elder affairs.

Representing the senior citizen gang.

Why is OGC, the Office of General Counsel, not represented at these meetings?

The weakest among us.

Now with JE, you know, the Jacksonville Electric Authority.

You know, I've been going to them for a couple of years.

And I've been going to a number of authorities.

I've been going to a lot of boards and commissions.

And what I want to say, and let me just say too, with Mr.

Wilson.

You know, and then I'm going to put in Shay Hill and even members of the JEA board.

Mr.

Wilson was always awesome in direction and help and assistance.

Even when I went over to J A, or not the AV, no, the PA, Jacksonville Porthority.

But like I said, I've been to a lot of different ones.

And I'm only just down to a minute.

But uh you know, I just want everyone to know I'm open.

If anyone has any questions for me and my interaction with every aspect of this city, and the way it works and the way you hope it will work for the betterment of all that called Jacksonville home.

So anyway, I just want to hold up this is the Northeast Florida Regional Council, seven counties.

Here's the resilient Jacksonville.

You know, that's a big JA thing.

So anyway, I'm only just down to 20 seconds.

I just wanted to be on the record.

And uh I just want also to say that when I anything I had with Mr.

Wilson, the guy was very, very helpful.

Thank you for listening.

Thank you, sir.

Okay, that's all the public comment cards we have.

Um let me go quickly to an issue that uh Ms.

Pittman raised at the last meeting on uh uh some calls that she she's had, and uh she sent uh Mary Stafopoulist a list of questions, those have been put together.

Um some other questions have been raised by Ms.

Pittman, and she would rather have one letter that goes to JEA with all those issues, and that letter will have to be approved by us.

So we'll I assume we will act upon that at our next meeting.

Is that okay?

Why don't you yeah you go?

Chair, first of all, I want to thank uh Miss Mary for reviewing uh my additional questions because again, when we were talking last week, you know, we're all hearing this for the first time, and so I've had an opportunity um to kind of think about more questions instead of doing two different letters.

I'd like to just combine it and do one and maybe uh have that or well um develop it and then send it out if that's possible.

And I don't know if we have to um vote on the additional questions or not, Mayor.

Ms.

Mayor, maybe you can help me.

Well, through the chair to Councilmember Pittman, so there's a couple different ways you can approach it.

The chair had discussed maybe I draft the letter, which I believe is gonna be in the nature of both a public records request but also a request for information.

Um and I can bring that back to the next meeting after you've looked at it, Councilmember Pittman to make sure it satisfies your intention.

Yes, ma'am.

Yes, and then you can vote on it that way, or you you had a memo that you had sent me that had all the additional information.

I know Celestine has copies of that.

You can also discuss the memo today, and if everybody is good with what the memo provides, I can just do the letter for the chair's execution, and that can go out.

It's it's really up to the committee how you want to approach it.

In order to expedite it, why don't you discuss the additional information that you want it included and we'll approve that way the letter can get over there that much quicker.

Okay.

So I can just tell you some of the questions that um I would like um to provide the total number of JEA employees, including the breakdown of how many are appointed employees, how many are union employees, and other any other employees' classifications.

And then my second one would be um an organizational overview of positions and roles, including the total number of positions by department and leadership level, um, a summary of the title changes, promotions, and reclassifications over the last three years or the time that Miss Vicky started.

I think we talked about the time that she started.

So it's the same time frame that I that I would like, and then also uh a compensation range and pay grades if possible, and then an aggregate um workforce um data information related to diversity, um, which includes um the number and percentage of minorities and leadership roles, and then a trend in hiring promotion and retention, a diverse um employees, and the next, which will be number four, a summary of executive level transitions, which include the number of executives who have separated from JEA during the tenure of the requested time of Ms.

Vicky and Diane, and then general categories of separations, which would be retirement, resignation, terminate terminations as well.

And then I would also like an outline of any programs and internal initiatives currently in place to support employees' growth and career advancement that leads to career pathways internally, which includes leadership development programs, um, tuition assistance or educational benefits, workforce training certifications, career pathways, internal promotions, and um secession planning efforts.

And then my last one would be um utilizing the data from these programs over the past three years during the tenure, um, the number of employees who have participated annually, um, types of programs mostly utilized, and any measurable outcomes related to promotions or career advancement.

And my last one is the process in place to ensure equitable access and advancement.

So I know that's a lot from when what we talked about, but it will give me a clear um path of what we're looking at more of a holistic aspect, because again, some of the folks that I've talked to um either felt pushed out or terminated, and so I want to kind of know internally what's kind of going on in people who have been in positions and have they been promoted in certain areas and the pay grade as well.

So just uh uh uh overview of what's going on internally, and if they've ever also done any surveys, I know we talked about the surveys at the last meeting, Mr.

Chair, um, but prior to this, um, you know, with all the the hostile and toxic environment, I just kind of want to know what has gone on internally before we move forward, if that's okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Councilwoman Diamond, you wanted to add something?

Uh yeah, I'll make a motion to support uh councilwoman Pittman and I'll try to capture it in a motion.

Um that I just want to frame this from my point of view, though.

So just so it's clear, there were allegations that people weren't treated the same based on the color of their skin at JEA.

That was the allegation.

And it was brought forward, and the board chair had the chance to do an investigation there instead of taking it under advisement for an investigation.

It was just kind of like push to the side, and now we've got action from the board saying, hey, we want to look at some of these things.

So the motion I'm making is I think we should have a colorblind JEA.

That's Rory's view of it.

And you're asking Councilwoman Pittman for information.

You're asking for the facts.

And I think that's good.

We should get the facts.

Is that where we're at?

Is that that's what we're doing?

I just want to make sure we're on the same page.

Because I just want people treated the same, no matter what color.

And also make sure compensation.

You know, um, you know, what I've heard is that you know, people either they're demoted and they're not compensated or they've been doing work um for years and haven't been compensated, and somebody get promoted over them.

So I'm just curious, and and it's not the same people is you know, people who have left, and then there are people that are still here.

I'm tracking.

Okay, and what I would add then to this list is promotions and demotions.

Yes.

Um and disciplinary action.

Because that's how it would usually kind of capture those types of things.

So that's my motion is to um empower Mary to go ahead and draft this letter with this guidance.

Um I think it's gonna be over, I guess it would be over the the chairman's signature or yours.

I don't know it's all the same to me.

Uh, but uh, how about over Ms.

Jacoby's um signature to go out to get this information and then to add the few things I added.

My intention uh based on the original direction of the committee before there was a more expansive request was that the chair would sign it as the chair of the SIC.

I don't think anybody cares, um, whatever uh you all want to do.

And and my intention, if it's if it is if it pleases the the special committee would be that I would address it to Ms.

Mosier as she oversees their employee services human resources function at JEA.

Um and the the memo that councilmember Pittman provided that she read for the record is a captures very well the type of information that the committee would be asking for.

So I don't intend to deviate too much from this as far as what the letter says.

Um and so I'm happy to at the at the um direction of the committee after your motion is taken up, and you'll want to get a second on that, Mr.

Chair.

Um prepare that letter this week for the chair's signature.

I have a I have a motion by councilmember Diamond, a second by Ms.

Pittman.

Any discussion?

All those in favor, and please indicate by saying aye.

Aye.

All those opposed, like sign, motion passes.

Uh, please go ahead.

Uh and then just to finish this, because we're all at this uh at this point.

And I spoke with Mr.

Baker also, and I I've talked to the other uh board member who's kind of been in the middle of all this, Mr.

Morales.

And I I I just want to frame out where I'm coming at this from.

I don't think there's anybody in Jacksonville who has like more prestige and respect and and just everybody has views their integrity with just rock solid view than John Baker and Rick Morales.

I mean, we're so fortunate to have both of them on this board.

Everybody respects them.

Every time they say something, I listen.

And so um I heard what Mr.

Baker said about not having dual track on this.

I think it's worth listening to that.

There's no question.

At the same time, at that board meeting, these issues were brought forward, and unfortunately, the board chair just threw it all away.

He's very rude to you, and then just bullied an answer to get to the end of all that.

I think that was very, very unhelpful because it left everybody wondering who do we trust in this process.

And that's why um I think Mr.

Chair, you uh brought forward the idea of doing our own assessment.

I think if we didn't do it now, if we undid that we're just we're just down the road.

And if we undid it now, I think that those same employees, both inside JEA and former employees would be like, wait a minute, where you guys just like threw us under the bus where you're not doing what you said you would do.

So that's that's the kind of mess we're in now with these two things.

I think maybe if we paste them separately, maybe that would save us the problem so we could finish ours, and maybe then they do theirs.

Um but I just don't think we can get out of that.

But I want to be clear just from Rory's point of view.

Like I have a lot of respect for the folks over there and these board and the and the board members who are bringing this up, and we just need to untangle this so the employees know we did the right thing.

And I want to add something since you've already said something.

Um I think that board meeting three and a half weeks ago did tremendous damage.

And uh to the employees, because not only was uh a motion made for a survey, it was not seconded for discussion, which to me was just uh uh unfathomable that that did not occur.

What happened to me is separate from all that.

And then it was a vote of confidence was was issued on the on the chair without any on the CEO without any investigation.

Um I've had many calls from JEA employees.

Um they've indicated to me, Councilman Salem, you are our last hope.

That's the message that I've gotten.

Um they've indicated they won't participate in a JEA survey, the ones that I've spoken to.

They're afraid to.

And so I think we're obligated to conduct a survey because of that, and we've got to somehow assure those employees that their identity will not be revealed through this survey process.

And that's why I'm working very hard uh in in order to ensure that that occurs.

So that's where I'm at, because the I I think the employees are counting on us.

They have they do not have confidence in those at JEA right now.

Um and that's just that's just a fact.

So with that, um let me go to the capacity fee issue.

I I um I I will get to people.

I will get to people.

I we've got business here to conduct, and I want to do that first, and then I'll be glad to recognize people.

Um the capacity fee issue.

I understand since our last meeting there's been considerable dialogue uh between uh Michael Fackler, the uh general counsel, um uh Miss Taylor, and uh involving uh Miss Regina Ross as well.

And it's been suggested to me that we have a process set up to to allow the auditors to get the information that they need to uh conduct their audit of of the capacity fee issue.

And if that's and I'm gonna have Ms.

Taylor comment on this, but if that's the case, um I'm willing to step back and let that occur.

If that doesn't work well and we cannot get uh access to uh Ms.

Ross, then we we'd be looking at some accelerated subpoena or somewhere some some other method to get that information.

So, Ms.

Taylor, I know we're at the very beginning of this.

Can you comment to us?

Yes, sir.

Through the chair of the committee.

Uh our office, my office met with um Mr.

Fackler, Mr.

Rheingle last Thursday, uh, to go through some of our initial questions that we had related to Ms.

Ross's memo.

Um we are gonna be compiling a little bit more, kind of condensing what we talked through.

Uh Mr.

Fackler indicated he is willing to be very cooperative to help us get the answers that we need, just to kind of understand basis for some of the things in the memo.

Um we've already sent a list to JEA to try to get some of their records moving so that we can have that going at the same time.

Um if we encounter any issues, I will certainly let the committee know immediately.

Um but I anticipate that we will be able to work through that.

And I should also say in my uh discussions with Mr.

Baker that I think everybody is in agreement that we need to get to the bottom of the capacity fee issue.

And uh so hopefully this will allow us to do that and to treat all our customers the same as we move forward.

So we'll count on you to do that.

Did you want to add anything else?

Yes, sir, and if I'm uh just may add it it I I do want to convey to the commit committee the time intensiveness of the task.

Uh we're having to try to get records back to the 80s, the 90s, before it was, you know, over here at the city, the water city city, uh, city, water sewer portion of it.

Um so there's a lot of in-depth records that we need to try to find historical tariffs on the rates that were charged for capacity fees.

So we will absolutely keep the committee posted and you can have us update any time that you would like, and we'll pursue going down our path of doing that.

Mr.

Taylor, I would just say if you sense you're having any difficulty getting information that you need or Mr.

Parks needs, you need to let me know.

Um and we'll we'll uh convene a quick meeting if we have to or do something because uh we need to make we we need to resolve this once and for all and fairly to all parties involved.

Okay.

Okay.

What I'm gonna do now is uh we're gonna move into testimony from Mr.

Wilson.

Once Mr.

Wilson is finished, we'll have questions from the committee, and then we'll have comments from anyone else that wants to make comments.

So uh Mr.

Wilson, if you'll remain standing, I'm gonna swear you in.

If you'd raise your right hand, please.

Do you solemnly swear or affirm to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth under the penalties of perjury?

I do.

Okay, thank you.

Please have a seat.

I've asked uh Mr.

Wilson to provide approximately 20 minutes of testimony on the uh on the work environment and approximately 20 minutes of uh of uh testimony on the capacity fee issue.

We're not gonna hold you exactly to that.

We're not gonna stop you in mid-sentence, because I think this is very important for us to hear.

So, but we'll start off with 20 minutes.

Yes, sir.

Through the chair, Kurt Wilson, my address is on file.

I'm gonna take us, I'm gonna book in this conversation from the April 15th when Vicky came in as the interim CEO until the day that I was exited the company.

So when Vicky came in, the idea was the direction of the company was such that the board we needed to go a different direction.

Vicki obviously was brought in as a trusted advisor to the board that moved into an interim CEO position.

And it was Jorn this time that it was no secret that there we were looking at reductions of positions.

Obviously, um, under the previous CEO, uh, we call it OM, but the reality was we added hundreds of new positions and management, vice presidents, directors, you name it, out of state employees, and so which put pressures on her budget to um execute capital.

So we needed to shrink that.

And so um I I don't want to say anything negative about her because when she came in because she came in and did not recognize a utility she had left.

We were in a building she didn't recognize.

Um she loved the old building, she didn't recognize a work where people were remote most of the time, out of state.

And so working in tandem as it relates um to how do we start making changes to get back to a position that uh was agreeable to the board and her charge as interim.

But very early on, um, and and again, I don't believe she did this with any malice.

The way that she would talk to people, the way that she would say things, I don't think she had the awareness of the impact on the individuals because everybody is scared for their job.

And again, that's I'm not taking that back to any kind of toxic work environment type of equity claim, anything like that.

But the reality was very early on, we had issues, and my counsel to her was hey, you're the CEO now, your word has weight.

And so everybody out here is running scared.

So you fast forward, and she took that counsel fine.

She would run down the person she felt she offended, she would profusely apologize.

Hey, we're good.

And it just take it as a learning.

She hadn't been in a corporate environment in a number of years, and again, angry at uh what she has seen since she's been gone.

But you moved through the year of 24, and by the fall of 24, we had exited enough chiefs out of this job, enough vice presidents.

I think we shrunk the number from 18 down to five or six, out of state directors, in-state directors, managers, you name it.

Enough people had exited the company that the dynamic at the time is people quit coming to me saying, Hey, Vicky said this or Vicky said that.

And at the time, really the role was people were kind of nervous to approach her because if she had uh a certain face on this day, you weren't gonna like the answer you got.

So they would come to me as her chief of staff, and I would go and approach her in a way that we could get an answer yes, no, or whatever, but it it filtered so they didn't feel that they were gonna get in trouble, lose their job, get the anger, whatever.

But by the end of 24, the the everybody was so scared that they were next as it related to their position being let go for any number of reasons.

Um they quit coming to me.

So at that point, as we enter into 25, really the only thing that I can see that I could sit here and testify to is what I witnessed because people quit coming to me.

I don't remember the the first part of 25 having big issues.

What I remember is kind of a crescendo, if you will, or a rapid change into July of 25 when her personality flipped as it relates to her comfort in the role of CEO.

Um, and this culminated when she called me up on a Sunday and said, Hey, can you meet me at Strings Barbecue at the beach and let's have a talk?

Something's not right.

Yes, please, let's have a talk.

So I meet her and she's like, something is wrong with you.

Something is tell me, please, what's going on?

I'm like, thank you.

So we weren't arguing.

This wasn't any kind of passionate talk.

And I said, Vicki, you've got a blind spot a mile wide on how you treat people.

You don't see it.

And she again she was like, Okay, please tell me what I've done.

So I started giving these examples.

Told her about the grand opening at uh a water treatment plant off of E Town, how she came in so hard, barking out orders, it shut everybody down in there.

I gave specific examples to that, and I said, Hey, look, I was gonna have a talk with you on Monday, but we can have the talk today.

So we spent about an hour there talking through it, and she's like, I just don't see it.

I just don't, and I'm like, Okay, well, that's why they call it a blind spot.

If you don't know that you got it, I'm sitting here telling you we can work on it.

Now, you go past July, and what's happening at this point is her and I's relationship is is beginning to deteriorate.

Um I I am now on the receiving end of the vitral of the call, whether it's in front of my peers, whether it's just her and I, but our working relationship is dissolving to a point that I believe it was the last week in November, it would have been the same day that Councilman Rockman Johnson held a notice meeting to discuss the government shutdown, and he asked for somebody from JA to come over and talk about all the wonderful things that we're doing for our customers during the shutdown.

And I walked into that morning, and Vicki was just what?

I could tell something was wrong, and I thought she was mad at Diane Mosier because they were talking prior to me coming in.

I come in and she is just upset with me, and she is upset with me because I reached out to Jordan Ellsbury to ask him a question about a person that was sitting at the table for union negotiations.

And we had words, the door was open, her EA heard the conversation, the chief of water heard the conversation, and she came back and said, Do you know why I've been treating you uh like this from July?

I'm like, please tell me why.

And she says, I don't need a proxy.

I don't need people to think that you're the CEO.

I need people to know that I'm the CEO and that I'm in charge.

And I said, Vicky, everybody knows you're in charge because you remind them every time you speak.

And we had a pretty spirited conversation for about 15 minutes, and I knew that this was heading towards a point that I was gonna regret, and I exited and got out of the room.

And both of those people I mentioned, Hurry A and the chief of water looked at me with her eyes this big because Vicky and I had finally had had enough of each other.

It was the following week.

Um it was the first week of December, and I come in and I said, I need five minutes.

And she was like, I don't have it.

I'm like, I need five minutes.

And she said, What?

And I said, Here's my exit strategy.

I said, I've never been treated uh as bad as I have my adult life working for somebody, I can't do this anymore.

And she says, You really want to leave JEA?

And I said, No, I can't work for you.

And so my exit strategy was is the following week in December, I'm at a leadership Florida class.

The last two weeks in December, you were at um on vacation.

I will come in the first week of January, and for the next three months, I will stay meaningfully engaged in government relations in Tallahassee.

I will come off the seventh floor.

You and I will not uh talk to each other, I won't stay out of your leadership team meetings.

I go on vacation May 1st and I won't come back.

I need to get to June 8th for the completion of my fifth year.

And uh she said, uh, are you sure you want to do this?

And I said, I did.

And and uh I stood up, I said, Look, look at this as an amicable divorce.

It's okay.

I'm thankful for my time at JEA, but this relationship's no longer working.

We shook hands, and that was it.

So it was a day or two later when board member or our vice chair Rick Morales reached out and said, Hey, you want to do lunch?

And I'm like, Yes, absolutely, I'd love to do lunch.

Well, that same day, she asked me to take her to the uh Westside Service Center Christmas party.

She wanted me to drive her to that, and I did.

So I canceled lunch with Rick, told him, Hey, I can't meet you for lunch.

He said, Hey, let's meet at four o'clock anyway.

I want to talk.

So when we sat down, Rick said, Hey, just for record, I I all I want to do is have lunch with you.

He goes, you know, I haven't caught up with you in a while, I want to have lunch, but I've been getting phone calls, and I want you to know that I've been getting from prominent people, both inside and outside the company, tells me there's a problem with Vicky's uh leadership.

And I told him that.

All right.

So I told Rick, can y'all hear me okay?

So I told Rick, same thing I told the chair when we spoke.

If Vicky knows that I'm talking to you about her leadership, I'll be fired tomorrow.

And he said, Kurt, I'm gonna ask you direct questions, don't worry about that.

If there's an issue in the leadership, I want to know it.

I told Rick the exact same thing, I just told all of you.

I said, Let's go back to day one.

I'm not throwing her under the bus the first year.

I'm not saying that she needs to be replaced because of back then.

I explained everything that was going on up to that December 2nd, 3rd, whatever that day was that uh him and I had a conversation at four o'clock, and that was that.

After that, Rick and I didn't talk anymore.

But Rick reached out and talked to whoever he talked to at JEA because he said it at the at the board meeting that he talked to other people and they corroborated the story.

There were issues with Vicky's leadership.

I can't sit here and put words and tell you what they told Rick because I wasn't privy to those conversations.

And if I sit here and tell you, well, this is how she treated this person, or this is what she said in this meeting, or this is how she did this, or demoted this person, or whatever that nuance is, she will come after that person and insinuate and assume that they're the ones talking to me, that somehow they're part of the people trying to unseat her when in fact it's just me witnessing how she's treating people.

So here we go.

Here's where we're gonna get to the crux of all this.

Is once I had agreed, once her and I had a handshake that I was exiting the company, I told my peers at the company, the ones that I was close to that, hey, I'm leaving, I'm done, I'm out of here, here's what we have agreed to.

And over the holidays, over December and early January, that word got out.

And what caught me off guard for the next six weeks is the amount of people that came to me and says, You can't leave, you're the only thing buffering us between her.

And I'm telling you, employee after employee, and I've got the number somewhere around 20 that have come to me and said, Hey, this is what happened, this is my experience, this is what happened to me.

Whether that was equitable issues, whether that was the way they were treated, talked down to, fearful for their job, threatened.

They each had their own testimony that I was not witness to.

I I I didn't personally witness that, so I can't sit here and tell you that it was true or not.

But they came to me with tears in their eyes, going, You can't leave.

Um, you're the buffer.

So now you fast forward to somewhere early, I think it was the the first Monday, no say fast forward, it's still going on the same time.

Jane the first Monday we were back in January.

She takes a phone call from Rick at I believe at four o'clock.

And Rick gives her the counsel of, hey, kind of like you do you do good not to let him go.

Uh that you know, development community, things like that really rely on him.

You know, a lot of constituent issues, you know, folks rely on me to try to to solve.

And so she came to me on that Monday and said, Hey, or the following day, and said, Hey, um, if you don't want to leave, I think we can work this out.

It was a very short conversation.

I don't feel like there was any emotional or goodwill in it, and I just said, Okay.

After the leadership team meeting on Wednesday, she said, Hey, um, can you please come in my office?

I did.

It will be on the video thing at uh JA headquarters.

And everybody in that room heard her say, take me in there, and she said, Hey, look, I want to be more clear.

I want you to stay, I think we can do better, we will figure out a way to make this work.

And I told her I didn't want to leave either.

Um, but Vicki, I can't be treated like this.

And she says, I've got it, I'll do better.

And to her credit, her and I's relationship was fine in the month of January.

She, and I think my peers would attest to it that all of a sudden she's given me assignments going, Oh, well, Kurt's gonna take the lead on this and Kurt's gonna do this.

She hasn't done that in eight months.

Um all of a sudden, the dynamic between her, people were noticing that things had changed.

But it was that month of January when people were coming to me going, Hey, you can't leave, this is why.

All right, so that's January.

Let's go into February on President's Day.

Vicky texts me in the morning.

Any I have you spoke to Rick?

No.

Any idea why he want to see me?

I said, Well, my guess is probably level set expectations as the incoming chair, because the executive committee, I believe at that time had voted for him to be the next chair.

Um, and she says, Yep, you're probably right.

Um, so they go and meet.

I don't talk to Vicky on Monday, I don't see her on Tuesday, um, I don't see her till the leadership team meeting, which I think is uh early afternoon on Wednesday.

However, President's Day, Rick Morales calls me and says, Hey, I just want to let you know I had a conversation with Vicky, she's agreed to resign.

Oh, he says, uh she asked why.

I'm paraphrasing at this point because it was literally a five-minute conversation.

I let her know I had uh too many conversations with people inside and outside the company.

They corroborated the story.

There's an issue with your leadership, Vicky, and I'm not gonna support you if as incoming chair I won't be supporting you as CEO.

Um the rest she has said publicly as it relates, well, I need I need to talk to my finance, and he taught the pension, blah, blah, blah.

But Rick and I's conversation were very short.

However, I knew, just like we did with Jay when Jay was resigning, I knew that, hey, I've got a resignation coming.

So now you fast forward to Wednesday.

She caught she's the last one to walk into the leadership team meeting.

I always sit to her right.

She came down and slammed her hand down right in front of me, looked me in the eyes, and and said, What a wonderful week this is gonna be.

What a wonderful week, and starts going on on this 20-minute diatribe about we've got a plan for Arthur Adams, just you wait and see.

We got uh this about uh Kevin talking about the council president, she goes on talking about the mayor, and it's 20 minutes of politics on how we're gonna do this and how we're gonna do this.

She goes on talking about the mayor, and it's 20 minutes of politics on how we're gonna do this and how we're gonna do this.

And everybody's looking around that room.

And if you will go and pull the footage in that room and look at people's eye contacts, you will see that was not a normal conversation that was being had those 20 minutes.

That's when I felt can uh uh that I needed to reach out to my board chair to let him know that hey, you've got an issue coming on Tuesday.

The board meeting happens the the following Tuesday.

He needs to know that there's an issue.

One, that uh either A, he's gonna have a CEO that's resigning, or two, he's not gonna have a CEO resigning, and there's gonna be problems.

So I reached out to General DeSalvo and I said the exact same thing.

General, you've got a problem.

I feel compelled to talk, and I'm letting you know that if Vicky finds out that you and I are talking, I'll be gone tomorrow.

And he says, I'll be at uh headquarters at four o'clock for a board briefing, let's meet after that.

And that's what we did.

Vicky goes to meet uh John Baker at five.

General DeSalvo and I go and uh and meet at five o'clock.

And the first thing out of his mouth is, why is Rick doing this?

And I said, I can't tell you why Rick is doing this, other than I can tell you he's received phone calls and he's saying uh he's got corroborating uh testimony there's an issue with Vicky's leadership.

And he said, Why didn't Rick call me?

And I said, Because the IG slapped everybody's hands last time when Jay resigned, and board board people can't be talking um about the resignation.

He said, fair enough.

He said, why didn't the employees call me?

And I said, General, generally speaking, the employees are scared of the board.

They are not gonna call a board member and complain about the CEO.

And he said, Well, then it's hearsay.

And I said, General, it's not hearsay.

I'm here to tell you I've witnessed some of these things as it relates to her behavior.

And he came back and uh now look, we talked for 30 minutes, so I'm making for sake of time condensing things.

He said, What good does it replace?

What good does it do replacing the CEO?

And I said, I'm not suggesting to replace the CEO.

Whatever Rick's doing, that's Rick.

I am simply trying to tell you as board chair that you are gonna run into an issue on Tuesday.

I'm just trying to inform you you got an issue on Tuesday.

And he said, um, Kurt, he said CEOs need to make tough decisions, and um Vicky has to make tough decisions.

And I said, General, I've been in that seat, I know what tough decisions are.

This isn't that.

The the culture, the atmosphere at JEA is not making tough decisions.

And I told him there are two distinct styles to Vicki.

Her personality is split right down the middle.

There's the charismatic, energetic, funny, bigger than life that you see, the board sees, the civic council sees, wherever she goes in public, that is a Vicky Kavey that everybody says, wow, I love her.

That is the version that the field gets every time she goes to a service center, every time she goes to a lineman competition or a water competition, that is the version that they see.

That is not the version that headquarters sees.

And that's what I'm here to tell you.

There is there is a a select group at HQ that she loves.

Finance folks, absolutely loves them, treasury loves them.

But the rest, procurement, I'm gonna keep going down the line of business units that do not get that version of her.

And how many times her and I close a door and she goes off on a conspiracy of this or she goes off trying to hunt down this.

It's just an issue.

So General and I's conversation is done.

The next morning at set at 8 o'clock, Vicky walks by my office, gives me this look of eat you know what and die.

She goes right into Diane's office, and I'm like, okay, that well, I I knew this was gonna happen.

I walk down there, I look at Diane, I give her the hey, give me a phone call.

She calls me an hour later and she's hey, what's going on?

I said, nothing.

I said, Look, I know what's coming.

You don't need to do pomp and circumstance.

Uh just tell me what I need to do uh when Vicky wants to let me go.

Um and she acted like she knew nothing about it, whether she did or doesn't is irrelevant.

But 30 minutes later, she said, What are your terms?

And I said, I would like to run my leave time out like you've done for all the other chiefs who run out of here.

And if not, then give me the six weeks to count my losses, six weeks' severance allowed by law to count my losses, and we'll call this thing done.

Um she said, Well, I haven't talked to Vicky.

Uh, and when I do, I'm paraphrasing again, I'll let you know.

Two o'clock, I get a phone call from her and Jody Brooks.

Hey, Kurt, I got Jody in here.

This is that call.

Uh you're being popped, personnel out processing, which means you're no longer with the company.

Um, you need to turn in all your IDs, turn all your work, computers, all that, and we will be contacting an outside law firm to negotiate a settlement package with you.

Well, what that means is we're gonna offer you something more than what you've got to shut up.

And so at that point, I was thinking, well, what do I do now?

I've got all these people coming to me with tears in their eyes saying there's a problem.

And so now I've got this inside voice doing, do I take this six or eight month consulting contract that they give the chiefs and others that leave the company, whatever that looks like, until a reporter called me and said, Hey, I just got win that uh Rick Morales is going to ask Vicky Cavey to resign.

Do you know anything about it?

Hey, I'm off, I I don't want to talk.

The reason I don't want to talk is I'm still an employee, I'm they're firing me, I think.

I said, I I don't want to go on on the record, nothing like that.

Hey, fair enough.

He calls me back two hours later, you know, there's a press conference tomorrow as it relates to uh your separation or whatever that press conference was.

So I brought my concerns to the board chair because risk management, ENY, every year when we do our external audit, what do they say?

See something, say something, you go one up.

If it's your boss, you go one up.

I saw something, I saw a disaster coming on Tuesday.

I wanted to notify my board chairs and informed board, you got an issue coming.

I never told the general, hey, fire Vicki.

If you will ask Rick, Rick will tell you who he was going to put forward as interim, not me.

I'm not trying to take over the utility, I'm not trying to get Vicky's job.

Um, all I'm trying to do is notify the board chair there's an issue.

And the very next day I'm going, I'm exited the company, and there has been a s this slander against me out of this company that my attorneys had to write a letter to them to say, hey, put you on notice, what's coming back to me and what you're saying is defamation, that I'm a criminal, that I have broke the law, that I'm part of a conspiracy to sell the utility, are you kidding me?

Um that I'm somehow tied up with with a lobby group, all these things to confuse the fact that there is an issue with the leadership of JEA, the fact that the number of employees that have reached out to not only me, but also to you to say, hey, this is true, warrants what this committee is doing.

It warrants it all day long because I'm telling you right now, they're not going to trust a JA survey with a 10 foot poll.

The reason we stopped surveys two years ago, we used to do surveys.

The reason the surveys were stopped is because nobody trusted the anonymity of them.

Because you fill it out through a JEA, your email, you hit the link, and then you're supposed to say something good or bad about your supervisor or the leadership team, and nobody trusted that.

Because our IT will read every single thing that you put in that email.

Every single thing.

So nobody trusts it.

So we haven't done surveys in two years, all of a sudden now we're going to do a survey.

I'm telling you, nobody's going to trust that survey.

She will get good remarks from the field.

She will get good remarks from those at HQ that have positive experiences with her, but there is a subset of employees at that building that there are real issues, and whether that is equity issues, race issues, that was not my claim that I brought to the board chair, and that was not my discussion with Rick, but that was also not my story to tell.

Demotion, all those pay things that Councilman Pittman talked about are real.

I just wasn't part of that witness, and that was not my witness to the board chair, and that was not my witness to Rick, but I have taken dozens of calls to this point with people telling me their story from print from both employees that are no longer with the company that say, hey, can you please meet me for coffee and let's talk?

And those in the company going, I'm scared to death, because if she finds out I'm talking to you, I'll be fired.

It's real.

So I'll pause there and I'm happy to take questions.

What I would like to do for the sake of continuity is have you transition to the capacity issue, and then we'll take questions on both issues at the completion.

You want to get some water or anything?

No, sir, I'm okay.

You're okay?

Yes, sir.

Okay.

So the capacity issue is not an issue that I brought forward to General De Salvo or Rick, but basically, and I'm gonna explain it in in easy terms, don't hold me to the exacts, but basically, new businesses, new houses, new whatever, when you come in and you build something, you have to buy capacity into our water plants and capacity into our sewer plants to treat you.

It's a one-time fee.

It guarantees your capacity forever.

So when you sell your business, that that that fee travels with you.

When you pay your monthly JEA bill, that pays for your operations and maintenance to keep the plant going.

So if you have a hundred million dollar plant and you are buying one percent capacity of that plant, you owe one million dollars because you are buying one percent capacity at a hundred million dollar uh plant.

That's ease of math, it's an easy way to explain it.

If you do not pay for that one million dollars, thank you.

If you do not pay for that for whatever reason, we're not keeping our eyes on the books, we're not keeping our eyes on the different uh what we build you at and what you're actually using, then the rest of the customers in the company are subsidizing the rest of that million dollars.

Okay, so there are 40% of our customers right now struggle to pay our bills.

So whatever the business is, and I'm not saying there's there's plenty of them out there, but the reality is if they're not paying the capacity, somebody else is.

So that's capacity fee.

So somewhere last I want to say it was summer, um, please don't hold me to it because I don't have access to emails or my calendar.

We had a staff meeting because it wears we were gonna get brought up that hey, we have had an issue since 2022.

It goes back further, but we became aware of it in 2022, that there are a number of businesses out there that sit behind a 10-inch meter and they have been building and expanding behind a 10-inch meter and not coming to JEA and paying additional capacity fees.

The system didn't catch it.

There's nothing in the key account system that sits there and says, hey, they paid 100,000, and when they go above 20% of that, they're supposed to pay more.

There was no flag in there.

And so as key account people move in and out, they don't know.

If you're not driving past these businesses on a daily, and your mind's not thinking, wow, that place has really grown in the last 20 years.

I wonder if they'd ever pay.

Nobody, I'm not putting this on a people person.

The system was broke on JEA's side.

The other place the system was broke is that you would come in and submit plans on the electrical side because they need transformers and substation upgrades and all that.

But because they had a master meter, you didn't have to come over here and ask for water.

So the electric side of the business never thought to say, hey, wait a minute, has water signed off on this on this permit.

You're building high rises, hotels, you're building new parts of your business over here, and I'm not talking about one business, I'm talking about the universe of businesses.

Nothing was in development said, hey, electric, you should let water know.

Okay.

Well, that's how this one business got caught in 2022, is they came in and submitted a set of plans and I for a new building, and Water said, 'Wait a minute, we knew nothing of this.' And those, and my memory serves me correctly, those plans got pulled back.

That's how JEA became aware of, well, hey, we got a little bit of an issue here.

So they start looking in, they do this staff briefing that says, and and I'm in it because we're in it with Vicky of hey, here's the issue, uh, myself, the chief of water, a bunch of other people, key accounts uh folks.

Um, here's the issue, here's the problem, here's how we're trying to solve it.

Um, but as it relates to this one client, we're kind of heading towards a either a mediation or a lawsuit because each side is digging in.

So we're we're we we are talking about what do we want to do in next steps.

And so my conversation, so just so you know, I've been advised, I can't talk anything about Miss Ross.

So none of my comments or anything is coming from OGC or Miss Ross.

I'm gonna tell you if you ask a question, it'll be about the facts as I know it from the key accounts folks, or the conversation between just Vicky and I.

So the conversation between Vicky and I as it relates to this one client is this one is the biggest.

Let's figure out how to fix this biggest client, and then we will take that as the cure for the rest of the clients, okay.

I can't tell you what the rest of the clients add up to.

This client was the biggest.

I don't my memory serves me correct, 12, 13 million, something like that.

Um, obviously they feel completely different, which is fine.

But um, whatever we fix here, we need to do for the others.

And so our choices were let's go to mediation, let's let a mediator recommend.

If we don't like it, we can we can sue.

Um, we can also um take this to the board and let it be a board decision.

The um the idea of suing, nobody liked the idea, especially this first client of us going out publicly and saying, well, nobody was really paying attention to this for the last 25, 30 years.

It looked bad with a utility suing uh some a pillar of the community, if you will, in a private business.

So the idea was at that point, hey, I'm gonna go talk to the CEO, and we're gonna try to figure this out, CEO to CEO, absent the attorneys.

So when she reached out to talk to the CEO, he wanted to have his CAO there, so then Jody Brooks got invited to the meeting.

I did not go with her to the meeting.

So those two those the four of them met, they came back, she was in a really great mood, and the answer was, hey, we're gonna waive everything in the rear, um, and they're just gonna pay everything going forward, and that she was happy with that.

Now, at that point, we didn't discuss how that was gonna go forward.

Is she gonna utilize the board to get that approved?

Did she have the signature authority to waive that?

We did not discuss that.

Um, and uh let me uh figure out how I can say this without um.

There was an issue.

Once that was made, there was an issue that came up that says you can't do that.

Um once the idea was that we could not do this, was that we meaning JEA, absolve everything in the rear.

Um, I don't know anything more about Mayo Clinic.

Um, I wasn't involved in any more meetings with Mayo Clinic.

I'm not aware of any settlement, I'm not aware of any further discussions.

That's going to be something for OGC, the council auditors, and this committee to go from there.

Um, but that's basically Mayo Clinic.

Um I'm gonna let the committee members ask their questions and then we'll go to outside.

I'm gonna go first because I just have a few.

I think you probably have more than me.

Um Mr.

Wilson, you mentioned that uh that uh Ms.

Cavey responded to you in an inappropriate way in front of your peers.

Can you describe that more for me so I understand exactly that the uh culture that we're talking about?

Sure.

So um I I gave an example.

We had three hour strategy meetings.

Um, and the idea is we were going to look at changing our corporate strategy, which are our mission, vision, and goals.

Is it a complete rewrite?

Is it just you know, changing some?

But the way that it's set up, the meetings are set up, they're vulnerable, in the sense of you're each one around the table, so it was all the chiefs, the senior vice presidents, and the people in strategy, and the idea was hey, talk out loud on what you think the utility should be, shouldn't be, why, all that.

And everybody was given the free range to speak their mind.

But the minute I tried to speak up, she would slap the table down in front of me and say, no, like I couldn't even get a sentence out, and she had shut me down.

Okay.

So now we go in a little bit more.

I go to say something else, and she'd say, no, we're not doing it.

Like it was it was very clear she didn't want me to have did not want me to say anything as related to strategy, what my thoughts on strategy.

So by the end of the meeting, somebody makes a comment, well, Kurt's awful quiet, and I said, Well, yeah, every time I open my mouth, she shuts me down.

Okay.

So I I I like again, I'm frustrated at this point, but I bring it up to my peers and everybody in there uh that if this is the way it's gonna be, I'm just not gonna talk.

The second meeting, uh, I don't want to say it was much better.

That's an example.

Um we had a meeting with uh this will go back to the uh the uh her chewing me out for calling uh Ballard on it.

We had a uh a um a meeting to discuss, and I won't get in the details of it, but a meeting to discuss um collective bargaining.

It was myself, Diane, Jody, and Vicky.

And Diane just simply asked the question, hey, did you get any intel on this person sitting at the table?

Blah, blah, blah, blah.

And um, her first thing out of her mouth was, Who did you call?

And I didn't want to say anything because I had a clear direction, I'm not to use Ballard.

She didn't want me to use that contract, she did not want me to call them, nothing.

And so I said, Hey, I made a call uh to Jordan because he would know they were in the administration, and she chewed me up and down in front of Jody and um Diane.

I didn't say anything.

I waited for her and I to get together, and I took her aside and I said, Hey, uh we're not doing that anymore.

You got a problem with me, chew me out in private.

You don't chew me out in front of them, chew me out in private.

But I'm trying to explain why why I'm reaching out to this person that's under contract for us that would know that would answer the question.

But don't worry, Vicky, I hear you free and clear.

I will not talk, you know, blah, blah, blah.

It's those kind of one-on-ones.

I got you.

Yeah.

Um, second question is I never heard any comments of anyone suggesting anybody go to HR to voice their complaints.

In in your entire testimony.

Yeah.

Is that why I think it is?

Yeah.

The if you look at once you look at the number of people that have exited that company since she's been there, people are scared to death of their jobs in this work environment.

Because if you s if you speak up and say something, you're losing a six, a lot of these folks are six-figure jobs.

You're not, it's hard, it's a hard work environment to find that right now.

And a lot of these folks are either tenured employee, which means they're under the pension, and they would lose a pension benefit.

Um, but we're talking about dozens of key managers, directors, vice presidents, chiefs.

Look, Ray Marshall made the comment, or chief operating officer made the comment in a one-on-one with her that simply said, Hey, I'm upset because nobody asked me what I wanted.

And she goes, Well, what do you mean?

She goes, I'm upset because nobody asked if I was ever interested in being CEO.

And this is when Vicky was put in as uh interim.

And Vicky said, Well, there's not an open CEO position.

I'm in it.

And Ray says, Well, I'm just upset because nobody asked me.

Ray left the company, she was her position disappeared six days later.

We decided we didn't need a chief operating officer anymore, and Ray Marshall was no longer with the company.

People know that.

When when you knock out the number two person, that was prior to a chief of staff.

When you knock out the number two person at JEA because they said something she didn't agree with, that teaches everybody else, you don't say nothing.

And a number of the issues that are coming before you are based in Diane's business unit, to be frank.

So why would they go to her with the issue if the issue is with her?

Okay.

Would in would other employees describe similar interactions that you just described with it that you had with Vicky.

I I want to make it beyond you and Vicky to other employees.

Would she pound her fist in front of them and not recognize them?

Or can you describe a couple things that you have witnessed with other employees?

And see through the chair, this is where if I if I give the example, she'll know who the individuals are.

And she went on a witch hunt the Tuesday after that board meeting.

You could pull the tape on the seventh floor and watch the people that were brought into her office and interrogated on who the heck talked to Rick Morales.

And I am scared to death that if I give you an example today and say this person, you know, this is what they told me, you'll know exactly who what unit they lead or what what group they belong to.

I gotcha.

Um I I will tell you I so in January I got a phone call.

Can you please meet me?

And we met, and she says, I feel like she's coming after my job.

And I said, okay.

I said, um, why do you feel that way?

She would explain why.

And she says, I can't lose this job.

I'm the only source of income for my family.

I'm thinking about applying for this other job in the company, and it's at like a 40 or 50 percent reduction in pay.

I'll take that reduction to keep my job because I can't, I can't get unemployed.

Those are the kind of conversations that people are coming to me with true tears in their eyes, scared to death.

But they didn't sit here and say, hey, for the last six months, this is it, this is why, this is it.

All at this point is I'm just trying to calm nerves.

You know, I'm just trying to say, hey, just you know, hang in there, no, she's not coming to me talking about you know your job.

Um, you know, that there are some people she would do that with, this person she was not doing that, so I tried to call them or letting her know that she wasn't mentioning her name.

Let me move to the capacity fees very quickly.

Yes, sir.

Um you mentioned 2022.

It sounds like during the tenure of the previous CEO, capacity fees were not dealt with.

So the way I understand it, and so I'm not I'm not I'm not mentioning anything that Regina said, so please y'all stop me if if you feel like my understanding at 2022, the business units, once we realized there was an issue, had to identify the issue.

Then the attorneys got involved to figure out how to rectify the issue.

That had been going on since 2022.

We had just gotten to a point where we were at a dead end, and that's when Vicky and I and got uh briefed up by staff on, hey, next steps.

Do we mediate, do we sue?

You know, what does that look like?

And that was that staff meeting uh that I discussed.

Okay.

Last question, and please help me here.

There are bond documents that the CEO signs.

And those documents you have to certify that you are collecting within JEA all the fees that are appropriate for you to collect.

That's correct.

And through the chair, that is correct, and in a roundabout way.

So that 100 million dollar plant in real life is about 180 million now.

We issue debt in the way of bonds to pay for that, and we pledge capacity fees as as new businesses and houses come on and they pay that fee, that's what we pledge to those bond issuers to pay back those bonds.

So in the bond governance, it explicitly says you can't give away capacity fees.

And look, when I came to JEA, one of the development pressures is we had to raise fees for the first time in 20 years, and they more than tripled.

And the developers are being crushed by this tripling of fees.

And I was warned by board members, attorneys, everything that capacity fees are the third rail in utilities because we can get in all sorts of trouble with our bond uh issuers, SEC, you don't mess with, you don't discuss, you don't talk anything with capacity fees.

They've got an issue, send them to the attorneys.

Um there is a state law as it as it requires uh to waiving of fees um and what you can and can't do and the bond governance.

Um and I I'm not I can't sit here and talk to detail on either one of those two.

Okay.

Since Regina has left, um and I I'm looking at Michael Facler, he has been the attorney to JEA.

Michael, is that correct?

Can you just acknowledge that?

Because I've seen you with the board meetings and such.

That's right.

We've got two, not sure if this is gone.

We've got two attorneys that are in bed, Cradley Bolthouse and uh Christy Gavin.

Um without the chief legal officer, which what Regina's role, I've stepped in the interim on that role.

So I do go to the board meetings on a regular basis.

How aware are you of some of these capacity issues and bond governance and signing documents indicating that that uh we're collecting all these things potentially.

Regina did her job when she was the CLO and raised those issues with me.

So you're aware of those.

I am aware.

Okay, thank you.

Um I'm gonna go to Councilmember Diamond.

Uh thank you, Mr.

Chair, and through the chair to Mr.

Wilson.

Uh all right.

So, first of all, thanks for being here.

I know you had better things to do on a Monday um than come to the Jacksonville City Council, sit there with your, I'm sure very expensive lawyer, and um and do this.

Uh so thank you.

I also know it's not fun when there's TV cameras and your name is in the press and all the rest.

So being the person who speaks out is hard.

And that's what you've done.

So on behalf of people who care about transparency, care about JEA, the employees who care about JEA.

I just want to say for myself.

Thank you for doing this.

It's not easy.

So good job.

Thank you.

Second thing, I just want to acknowledge that this is an awkward thing we have to do today.

Because of the sunshine law, we have to do this out in the public, which it's the right thing to do, 100% right thing to do.

But it's awkward because you're talking about your former boss.

Personally, I like Vicky Havey.

She's been a friend for a long time.

A lot of people on Jacksonville very much like and respect her.

And so I want to be cautious with how I proceed with my questions because it's a little unfair, right?

It's one-sided today.

And so I want to be clear.

At some point, I I would like to give Ms.

Cave the opportunity to sit in the exact same chair, raise her hand, be sworn in, and answer the other side, her side of this.

And that that's fair to me.

Uh so I want you to know what I'm asking.

I'm probably gonna just ask for the same stuff, and we'll go through it.

And I think that's the only way to do these kinds of things.

Uh being a lawyer, I can't help myself.

I just throw away feelings.

I just toss them aside, and I uh throw away generalizations and I try to focus in on facts.

And so looking at the kind of leadership stuff, the facts that were jumping out to me.

Um through the chair.

When you're CEO, people are always gunning for you.

It's just a fact.

You've got a big target on your back, and people come for you and they say bad stuff about you because it's frustrating when someone says no.

When something you don't get the promotion you thought you wanted, you didn't get this or that.

And so um people tend to say bad things about CEOs.

I could say that with a lot of experience.

Um but then there's that crossing the line when clearly there's a fact where a CEO has done something that you just don't do, right?

That's a problem.

Uh and so there's a couple of them that jumped out to me.

And so through the chair, I just want to make sure I heard this right.

When you were employed at JEA, at some point did the CEO tell you to eat, you know what, and die.

Did I hear that right from your testimony?

Okay, I just made that up.

It was a look.

Okay, all right.

Yeah, I knew that general that she knew that I talked to the chair the day before that.

Okay.

I I feel better.

That one was concerning to me.

Okay.

Um based on your experience, and I'm gonna let Ms.

Pittman get to these kind of these equity issues and race issues, but in your experience, did you see anything that was obviously racist?

Through the chair, uh the short answer is no, as far as obvious.

There was never any off-color remarks, jokes that you wouldn't, you know, what would would I never heard particularly her say, like, let's go after this because of that.

Okay.

Um, no.

Um, no, that that's good, right?

Right.

All right, through the chair.

Um when uh we're talking about you know, I hate this phrase, the toxic leadership, unquote, you know, kind of stuff.

Do you have other facts that just like jump out at you and you say CEOs just shouldn't do this?

And I'm asking about you personally, because I believe you that there's a lot of other people who have things that they would love to say, but they work there.

So anybody who works there is gonna have to get an anonymous, truly anonymous, safe way to do this.

I can say this as a former CEO, I've done these surveys, and no matter how many times I told our employees we're not looking, and we weren't.

Yeah.

Nobody believes you.

They just don't.

And that's okay.

Uh that's why we're we're gonna do it.

Um, but for you, tell me those things that cross that line, that the facts.

Yes, sir, through the chair.

And that's my problem.

I I've got 'em.

I can sit here and tell you she said this to this group or that to this person.

Um, you know, this person sought counseling for the way she was being treated.

That's not normal.

Yeah.

Um, you know, the the problem is the minute I give you that example, and I'm not saying that's the person that came to me with and telling me what's going on.

It's the it's it's just what I witnessed.

Um there's two there's two sides to the coin, and I would say this about the previous CEO.

People loved him.

The company loved him.

Uh they didn't understand why he was gone.

His issue is between with him and the board and the the direction of JEA.

The issue on this time is not the direction of JEA as it relates to that, it's how the CEO is treating people.

And I'm not talking about tough decisions and people don't talk tough decisions.

I'm talking about real fear when people come in based on the comments.

Look, there was there that she's no longer with there was a there's a management company that manages the building, so it wasn't a JA employee, and she was like, hey, look, my folks refuse to go into that office with her unless I'm I'm with them because of how she would talk to them, you know, treat them, things like that.

That's what I'm talking about.

Like it's it's just not a bad decision day or you know, but if I give you details, I'm going to expose people to that vitral, and I just not going to do that.

Yeah, no, through the chair.

Well, I respectfully request not to have to do that.

No, no, no.

Yeah, through the chest.

I understand what you're saying what you're saying.

Um so that's the survey, we can get to those other folks.

You're not supposed to know everything.

And also, like, you know, you're not supposed to like uh you're not on trial.

Like you tell us what you can tell us, and you're already telling us a ton.

So thank you.

Um I have to say for me, the toxic work stuff is important.

Um, but as a city council, I'm a little hesitant.

I think the board manages a CEO.

It's their job to hire and fire and to do this.

So I'm sure the board is is dialed in on this.

I'll say that from my point of view as a city councilman.

I'm watching board appointments very carefully on this issue.

So I want to switch to capacity because that's that's where as a city councilman, that's where my stomach is starting to start to turn.

That's when I went to JEA meeting.

I haven't been to JAA meeting in a long time.

I was really hoping never to go back.

Um, but I went to the last one and I wanted to ask you about I mean essentially your conversation with the board chair.

And so I just want to understand about when did that happen?

Is that January of this year, or was that December?

It was the Wednesday through the chair, it was the Wednesday after President's Day.

Okay.

And then through the chair.

So the things that you were asked, you you were saying is like, look, there's a problem with capacity fees, or you were just focused on leadership.

No, sir.

The the issue was I knew that at that day in time uh on Wednesday at five o'clock, that uh the vice chair had told me that the CEO was going to resign.

Um the way that she acted at the meeting Wednesday uh at the leadership team where I told you she slammed her hand and was talking about uh the the appointment for Arthur Adams, that didn't seem to be the case, and she wasn't acting normal.

That wasn't a normal uh meeting.

And so I felt compelled just to let the board chair know, hey, you've got an issue coming this Wednesday.

I I wasn't compelled to get him because at that time I'm not sure that the I would the right audience for me to say, hey, you've got a toxic work environment was to go to the board chair and say, hey, you got a toxic work environment.

Um the vice chair in his conversation with other key leaders and people in the business heard whatever he heard to come whatever conclusion he heard that he wasn't supportive of her moving forward.

My conversation with the general was never to remove Vicky Cavey.

It was simply just to say, hey, as an informed board, you're heading towards uh a Tuesday that was supposed to be the his last meeting.

Uh you're heading towards an issue.

I felt compelled to tell him, and then I was unemployed the next day after telling them that.

That that that's a that's one of the pieces I'm uncomfortable with.

Uh did you guys have a conversation about it being private?

Did you guys have a conversation about it being private?

Like, or did you have the expectation that it was private?

You know, I knew there was a risk.

Uh and that's why I prefaced on the phone call that morning that hey, if Vicky knows that we're talking, I'll be fired tomorrow.

I knew that.

Um the same fear that the other employees felt, it's based in in what you have seen in the past.

So I knew what was on the table.

I felt compelled to tell them regardless.

Yeah, but but I mean, you were whistleblower, right?

In your mind, you're like, I'm going to my boss's boss to tell the truth about this thing that people in Jacksville really care about.

Is that where you were?

I went the one up because the way she acted at that meeting, what she had informed the vice chair, we were heading towards not a good board meeting on Tuesday.

And I didn't know where else to go on that one.

It's certainly not the Chief Human Resources Officer.

Um at that point, it wasn't the OIG because Mayo, the Mayo, or excuse me, the capacity fee issue wasn't what I brought to the board chair in discussion.

Okay, I'm tracking.

Um let me uh ask about this Ballard contract.

Um I don't want to spend a lot of time on this, but it seems like it's one of those shiny objects people are really focused on.

Yeah.

And it's obscuring from the bigger issues.

So I feel like if we can just kind of ask some questions about it, we can kind of get it out of the way.

Please, so we can focus on the core stuff.

So um at some point you all put a federal and state lobbying contract out to bid.

Is that right?

That's right.

When was that?

Uh it would have been in December.

Uh don't owe me to it.

It might have been uh Give me a year.

Nov uh 24.

November, December of 24 is right after the election.

How many people responded?

How many entities responded?

The RFP two.

Two.

And um who was the other one?

Do you remember?

Southern, and they had partnered with, I think uh the firm's name is Continental.

It was a DC firm.

They had partnered up on the RFP.

Gotcha.

And then just give me some general sense of price-wise and ability-wise, like were they equal ability?

Were they better or worse?

No.

So I looked at them as equal Southern, obviously has a wonderful footprint in Florida.

Ballard's got a wonderful footprint, uh, Continental, had no dings on that.

It was literally um one was at 12 grand, I believe, monthly, excuse me, retainer fee, which is how we do consulting contracts, and the other one, if my memory serves me correct, was about 20,000 a month.

And so the way that procurement buckets the scores on the scoring, I couldn't, even if I wanted to, you know, if you wanted to finagle it in some way, if you really wanted Continental and you really wanted it, you couldn't get around the scoring because it dinged it so bad on the points.

Yeah, an $8,000 spread per month times 12 months.

Is it a two-year or one-year contract?

I scored everybody the most points because that's what they deserved.

And it was the pricing that that uh Ballard wanted on.

Okay.

Yeah, I mean I think it rational people look at Southern and Ballard, say both qualified.

I'm trying to do that.

That's right.

Okay.

All right.

So uh one year contract, two year contract, three years.

It's a one year, uh, and if I if I serve correct, it wasn't a contract, it was just a P.

We issue a PO, you have a choice.

You can enter into a true contract or you can bill against a PO.

I can't remember if this was the contract or if they billed against a PO, but all of our consulting engagements are for one year.

You can cancel at any time for convenience.

But if you want to renew, then it's usually a three or a four-year renewal.

So you don't have to keep RFP in every year.

Okay.

Did you all ever do a renewal or was it just on that original?

No, sir.

We let just the one year.

Okay.

And then um how do they do, like generally?

So uh you know, the um we engaged DC Ballard.

Um it was either annual or excuse me, weekly or bi-weekly.

We had a standing meeting with DC Ballard to go over all thing DC politics.

Um we do that with our other firm we have in DC as well.

And that standing meeting went till I believe the first of September.

And at that point is when Vicky had given us the the uh direct order, hey, I don't want you having to do anything with Ballard, no business.

I don't want them knowing our business, I don't want you engaging them.

Um I actually got an email from uh a lobbyist with a large public power council.

Hey, I see that Ballard is registered on your behalf, Brian Ballard and D.C.

Mine if we align efforts.

And I said, Hey, call me, and she called me and I said, um per my boss, we're not allowed to engage Ballard anymore.

We're not doing it.

Uh just uh sorry, you said a lot there.

When were you told not to use Ballard?

Uh well, September is when we canceled the standing meeting.

So my assumption is uh September.

Were you paying Ballard but not using them at some point?

Yes.

For how long were you paying them but not using them?

We allowed the contract to expire at the end of January, so the last payment would have been January.

And then you were told not to use Ballard.

Were you ever told why?

She didn't she didn't want them being in our business.

Um I mean, but this is your this is your lobbyist, like Yeah.

Look, most of the conversation was centered around uh the previous mayor, Lenny Curry.

Um she did not like the fact that Lenny was part of the firm.

And I want to preface this.

She knew prior to us engaging that contract that it was on the streets.

We have text messages.

I brought them that shows, hey, hold up on engaging.

I just took a call from John Baker.

Um let's discuss two days later, hey, we might not execute today.

I'm paraphrasing, but I got the text.

We might not execute today.

I just took a phone call from Tallahassee.

Yep, no problem.

I was like, who called you?

And and she said, I'd rather not say.

Well, at some point that day we got over the idea that and in my um I would always say, don't put politics into procurement.

They won fair and square.

If if this is what I said, if Lenny Curry were to go to work for Jacobs Engineering, would we blacklist Jacobs Engineering, who is a big engineering firm for our utility?

And the answer was no, obviously we wouldn't.

Lenny Curry is not our lobbyist, he was not on the RFP.

Um we don't engage Lenny on our business.

And I said, So don't put politics in procurement.

We we engaged uh Ballard, we had standing meetings with Ballard, and we had no issues with Ballard all up until uh you know, sometime in the late summer.

And and I I feel like I know what those reasons are, but that was just the politics of the day, if you will, between two folks.

Um then it came to a head in November, right before Thanksgiving when uh when uh our previous mayor uh set to register on all the clients on Ballard, and everybody saw the news on that, and it just accelerated the idea that we we didn't want to have anything to do with uh the Jacksonville contract.

Okay.

So and then I want to finish this because again, I think it's the shiny object, not the core issue.

Um did you ever find out why, other than I don't want Lenny Curry in our business, that that uh Ms.

Cavey wanted to cancel Ballard and we'll pay for them and not use them.

Yeah.

So look, the it was very clear in her conversations with the mayor, they did not want us having that contract.

That that that was looked at as a political opponent.

How you know that was very early on uh that they did not want that.

Um so every time she had coffee with a mayor or she would meet with a mayor, it was always a point of contention she would come back and be like, hey, she's still upset with me.

You know, I wish we never would have signed the contract.

You know, it's it was always this remorse.

Um the irony is we could have canceled it at any time.

It has a contract, it has a termination for convenience.

So we could have gave 20 days notice and canceled.

All right, you mentioned the mayor.

I wasn't going to, but so in your experience, I will put words in your mouth.

I just want to make sure I get this right.

The mayor was getting upset with Vicky Kavey and putting pressure on her about the Ballard contract.

Yeah, I am under oath.

I'm telling you the truth.

Yeah.

That and and there was a coffee, they meant for coffee at Mayo Clinic, I think in April.

It may have been 7.30 in the morning.

And that was the first time that she came back and she was like, hey, they're really, you know, she's upset that we have Ballard.

And um I'm like, hey, other other independent authorities have Ballard.

I understand that she may be upset, but we're not utilizing Lenny.

We are utilizing them in DC.

Um, and we did it it just we could never get over the when she had those conversations and it would come back, you know, the the frustration that we were still under contract.

Okay.

And just to wrap this up, did Ballard do a good job?

They did.

Okay.

All right.

I want to move to capacity.

Can I please go ahead?

Obviously, the President joined us and I failed to recognize him earlier.

Number two, the the Ballard contract is not a part of our charge, and the the President can add it to our charge at some point if he chooses to.

So I just wanted to say I appreciate Mr.

Chairman.

I just wanted to everyone keeps talking about it like it's the driving bus on this thing.

I just want to like, let's ask the questions, let's get it out, and let's put it over here and focus on the stuff that actually is affecting people's rates and the leadership over there.

Why I'll let you do it.

Sorry.

All right.

Okay.

Uh through the chair, but if we're going to put a pen in that, can I make one comment?

So there was thank you.

There was a news uh article on Friday that tried to surmise that the contract in January was somehow the beginning of the end of our relationship.

That's simply not true.

I they uh can either JA conveniently left off her response when they submitted the public records request to that news station, or the news station left off that response when they put it in the news story.

But after the Tallahassee comment when she said we may not sign, and I said, Hey, take it off your mind, I got it.

Sorry.

Um sorry, uh I've put us in this situation, meaning that the the RFP for Ballard, just like you would apologize for anybody going through something, hey, I'm sorry your mom died.

I didn't do anything with that, but you you just being empathetic.

She replied back immediately in all caps, you do not have to apologize.

Exclamation, we're good exclamation.

That didn't make it in the story in Friday.

And I don't know whose fault that was, but I'm here to tell you this contract was not the beginning of the end for us in January of that year.

And I did not do this alone.

Um it was in the full knowledge of uh the CEO.

Um I appreciate that.

I can I can tell you with knowledge and familiarity that sometimes the media just gets it wrong.

We'll be nice to them.

Okay, let's move to capacity fees uh because I think this is a significant issue.

Uh before we jump into it, though, you're sitting next to a really smart lawyer.

Um, and so through the chair to Ms.

Doolittle, let's talk about privilege for a second here.

I want to ask uh your client about discussions that he had with Regina Ross.

I want to ask those because I need them in order to do my job.

But you're gonna advise him not to.

Explain to me why I can't ask those questions from your advice to your client.

Sure.

Uh through the chair.

Uh Kirsten, my name is Kirsten Deolittle, and I'm representing Mr.

Wilson.

Um get what you want to ask uh Mr.

Wilson about his conversations with Ms.

Right, Ms.

Ross, also very another very, very smart attorney.

Um this is why I've advised him that he can't answer those questions.

Um I did call the Florida Bar uh ethics department on Friday.

I spoke with them about the issue.

Um they confirmed to me that uh the conversations that he and others um uh of similar capacity at JA that they may have had with Ms.

Ross, those are confidential communications.

Um those can only that confidentiality um can only be waived by the client.

Um Mr.

Wilson is in a precarious situation.

He is still technically employed by JEA.

Um and he we have been advised by JA's legal um department that JEA as the client has not waived that confidential um protection of those communications.

Can I interrupt you there?

Um as of today or Friday, I sent over the request by councilmember Diamond about waiving privilege.

Uh I have not received a response as of yet.

I assume you have not.

So what we have requested the release of that information.

Well, I mean, that's just the point.

I mean, we've got the board chair here.

Um we've got OGC here.

Do we have a waiver?

Can we ask these questions or not?

And so my client is a very important thing.

Right.

My client is employed by JEA, and JA's instructed him he can't.

Yeah, yeah.

And I'm gonna be clear.

I'm not gonna push uh Mr.

Wilson or even Ms.

Doolittle, but Mr.

Facler, why can't we ask these questions today?

Committee through the chair.

I'm not the mic's not on.

There you go.

Oh, there you go.

Now I'm loud.

Uh the issue, the board chairs here.

It's not a board chair decision, it's a board decision.

So it's not a general de salvo question, it's the entire board.

They have not had an opportunity to meet yet.

I did see the communication that went out on Friday asking of the board chair and the vice chair to discuss that.

But to the best of my knowledge, the board has not met and has not made a decision on the waiver or the informed consent as the ethics rules contemplate.

Roger that.

I mean, uh do you mind if we just chat chat with General DeSalvo briefly here?

Wait, can I ask him a question very quickly?

The the board has approved this survey that they're doing.

Can how did that occur?

Does that require uh board approval?

Because boom, it's out there in the media that they've approved this survey and everything.

I do not know.

General DeSalvo is indicating that he can answer that question.

Please know there.

I I'd love to hear it from him.

Okay, so I've been via uh advised by one second, uh, General, just just to be fair.

The letter asks General to put it on their board agenda for tomorrow.

That's what our request was.

So just a level set.

I thought we'd ask just for a waiver, but that's what it was.

So go.

I think it's actually the 31st, is there meeting, not tomorrow.

The 31st.

I just want to be fair.

Like that's uh that was the request, that's what we should hope to get.

Okay.

Right.

So just to expound, Mr.

Chair, the uh for the um client privilege thing uh that was just yeah, that's I became aware of this on um Friday.

So we'll see if we can get that on the agenda for the 31st.

Um okay, about the process.

I'll just tell you, I answered this the last board meeting.

We have our own internal processes, and that's exactly what we're doing right now.

So this notion that now we're doing a whiplash based on the fact that your committee is doing a survey fine.

That's all within your remit.

We got that.

We still have our own internal process, which is what we're doing, and that's all we're exercising.

Does that make sense?

So the your internal process is using this outside firm to conduct the survey that doesn't require board approval.

That's correct.

Okay.

Okay.

That's that that's all I was trying to determine.

Okay, fine.

Any other questions?

Well, we we we may bring you back up if you would would cooperate with that.

I'm not sure when.

You have any other questions?

Thank you.

Okay.

Thank you, sir.

Uh thank you, General.

Um uh since we can't ask the questions today, I hopefully we don't have to bring it back.

But I I do just want to get at some of these uh capacity fee issues um because I do think that's the 800-pound gorilla.

Um that makes me the most nervous.

And hopefully it's just something that can get worked out and JEA goes along um in a good way.

But okay.

So just so you you you articulated it very well before.

Someone's got uh a 10-inch pipe, is that what you called it?

10-inch meter.

Through the chair, yes, sir.

Okay, and then um so you you have to pay capacity to get that uh when you first start.

And then when someone builds something extra, they add an extra room on their house, they add another hotel, another building, they have to use more capacity and they have to pay for that extra, the the extra hookage uh, if you will, even if there's no actual physical work done.

Is that right?

Through the chair, yes, sir.

Okay, all right.

And at some point it was discovered that we weren't doing that correctly for some of the JEA customers.

Is that right?

Through the chair, correct.

When is that magic moment?

What do you have a year for we're like, ta-da, we've got a problem?

I believe it was in 2022, uh, when the um when they submitted plans, when this one business submitted plans, and then they pulled it back, they're like, oh, we don't need to do it, we got a meter, and that triggered an internal discussion.

Wait a minute.

We know this one private business has blown up.

What did they go back?

What were they paying capacity fees at?

Um I think I remember somewhere around 200,000 gallons a day.

Um but that's that was the triggering point in 2022.

And then there was an audit done to say, whoopsie, how many more are the 10-inch meters out there, how many more of these businesses might have been impacted by this?

Okay.

So in 2022, y'all figured this out.

Who who was the person who like so my understanding, Tracy Day was the director of key accounts, and she was she was the lead in the meeting that I was in as it relates to staff explaining the issue.

Okay, and I'm I'm gonna get painfully granular just so that I understand this piece.

Who does she then go to to report this problem in 22?

Uh at the time it would have been Sheila Presley.

Okay.

Uh who was her title?

Chief Customer Care Officer.

Okay.

So then it goes to Ms.

Presley, and then to your knowledge, does it go to somebody else?

Well, I think uh what at that point what happens is OGC gets involved.

Uh, and then the between key accounts, operations, development, everybody tries to figure out w first what's the problem, what's the issue, how did we miss it, what's the fix.

Um my understanding the fix was done last year, and it was a programming change within the billing system.

So uh the way I understand it now.

Uh uh go ahead, I'm sorry.

No, no, you're fine.

This is all very helpful.

So then uh 22 boom, we got a problem, then it kind of goes up to the you know senior management kind of level.

Did at some point did it get to everybody in senior management?

So uh through the chair, so Sheila Sheila's a chief officer at the time in 22.

I do not know if it if it got to Jay.

Um, but I do know that we were briefed about a when I say we, Vakey and I were briefed about a year and a couple of months into her tenure.

So she comes in April of 24, we're being briefed in the summer of 25.

And the reason we're being briefed is at this point we've kind of hit this impasse.

So let me stop you there, just to make sure I get this right.

So somebody figures this out in 22, kind of like goes up, probably Jay, the former CEO probably knows about it.

And then they're trying to solve stuff.

And so, and then there's a change from CEO to CEO.

At some point, do you know if this was part of the transition or uh from J to Vicky, or did it just come up a bubble up later when the two parties couldn't um you know, well after Vicky has started?

The latter.

So um I I would I'm not saying she wasn't, but it if it felt like when we had that very first kickoff staff meeting that I was in with Vicky that this was the first time that her and I are being briefed on the totality of the issue, because that was what the whole meeting was about.

Day one, here's the problems, here's the issues.

What year is that?

25.

So we're all the way to 25 before this is like the the guns are going off.

Okay.

All right.

Do you have a sense of the the uh the number of clients or customers that this affected?

So I've heard in talking with folks, I've heard different numbers thrown out.

There was an Excel spreadsheet that I laid eyes on that I never took possession of that it was somewhere in a dozen 15, something like that.

I heard a number not too terribly long ago that it was over 20.

Is it was that in an internal JEA spreadsheet?

It was.

Okay.

Do you know who had that?

At the time it was Sheila.

No, I take that back.

It was it would have been Charles.

Charles Charles was there in July of 25, so Charles' last name is uh Morland, Dr.

Morley.

Oh, Dr.

Morland.

Okay.

So was it like in an email from him, or is that just something he had like sitting on his desk?

No, I remember I I remember everybody at the table having it was a printout of an Excel spreadsheet.

So you can see the columns in the rows.

It wasn't like on letterhead that that said anything, but it was like, hey, here are the rest of the people impacted.

And it's touchy.

I mean, there's you know, there's names on there that you know don't have the means to go out and pay three million dollars in whoopsies.

So that's my next question.

Was there numbers attached to the customer?

There was, and I don't remember uh, you know, the the one that we're talking about is the biggest, and I believe that's somewhere around 12 million.

Everything else was less than that, but I don't know what the cumulative amount.

I don't ever remember seeing, you know, hey, all these 12 or these 20 equal X.

I got you.

And then I I am sure you can see around this corner.

I'm trying to find this document.

What year, what best you can, what date is that?

That was that first meeting.

You'll have to add whatever staff documents were produced when Tracy Day led the meeting in uh the middle of 25, the very first kickoff meeting, it was in that document.

Can we get that document uh request from uh Dr.

Morland over at JEA make that request?

He's probably watching, probably knows what we're looking for.

Sure.

Uh Ms.

Taylor.

Uh Mr.

Chairman, I believe we have that document and were provided.

Uh but the indication was not to rely on it because some of the numbers they have found to be wrong as a benchmark starting point for what capacity did they pay into initially?

But I believe we have that document.

Councilman.

Can I hold this just for a second?

Um Ms.

Stephopolis, other people have come to the microphone.

Do I need to put everybody under oath as they come to the microphone?

To the chair, you're not required to take the oath of any individual who testifies, but to the extent that you want their testimony under penalties of perjury, you should be taking their I just want to be consistent.

Then I then if you want to be consistent, then yes, it would be appropriate if you administer the oath at least the first time each of the individuals speak.

Okay, even if they're in the office of general counsel.

Well, that that's a nuance that you want to differentiate city employees, you can certainly do that.

If you want to just administer the oath to outside parties who are not city employees or in OGC specifically, you can do that.

City employees are obligated to tell the truth.

Are they not?

Okay.

They're obligated to participate in the investigation in full faith.

Councilman, you're frowning at me.

No, no, I just I just I would never ask OGC to raise their hand.

No, I mean to me, that's just my two cents.

Okay.

Well, I would say anyone that's not a city employee, if they come back again, I will I will do that.

Um Libya wrap this up because I know this is I know.

I I'm not trying to be a belabor.

I'm just trying to understand this.

Uh and we've got the former chief of staff of JEA, just so people know, Curtis is the everything guy for people in Jacksonville.

If you wanted something at JEA, you called Curtis.

That's why it's so easy to talk to him about this stuff.

So uh last couple of questions on capacity.

So we'll get that document.

Um most important question that I know of is that uh do you know if Ms.

Cavey ever took the issue with the capacity fees first to the board?

No, sir.

We never we never took the issue to the board proper, meaning it was never on the agenda for an action item.

It was never on the agenda as an FYI.

And then um to the best of your knowledge, was the settlement or any discussions of settlement updated to the board at any point.

So I don't know about a personal conversation if Vicky were to have a phone call with an individual board member and go, hey, here's what's going on, here's what I'm thinking.

That that could take place.

But as it relates to I sit in in every single staff meeting when we uh have one-on-ones with the board and we go over the issues with board agenda preps, committee agenda preps, I sit in every one of those meetings and we never discuss Mayo capacity fees.

Okay.

And then uh I think this is my last question.

Uh and and I this is a little bit unfair, but I just want to get your sense of this.

Do you feel like anyone at JEA was trying to hide this issue was like trying to just get it done under the rug, or was it just like an issue and we got to deal with it?

No, I uh the desire, you know, and I I shared it with Vicky, so I don't want to make this sound in a bad way, it's a bad optic for for the utility to sue such a prominent business because we can't come to an addition we can't come to an agreement on if somebody owes us something or not when really it's our fault for not catching it.

It is on JEA for not catching this capacity fee issue.

Um, and so whatever the cure is for that, whether it's to take it to the board as a resolution, if the cure is to take it to mediation and accept that outcome, or the cure is to sue, there nobody wins when we get in the media and we do that.

So that that was the I don't want to look at it and say no, nobody was trying to purposely hide it from the board.

Yeah.

Uh Chairman was getting to the exact question I want to ask, and he just said to me, like the statute requires that you collect it.

That's right.

So how do you get around that?

In a settlement.

One minute, please.

You pop, you maybe you can answer that.

Yeah, no, I so I you know that there's two sides to the argument here.

We certainly had ours, they have theirs.

And I think theirs has been publicly stated in the news, and they're uh so I'm not I don't want to speak for them at all.

But I'm going beyond May.

Yeah.

I think um I I don't want to single out mail.

That's not fair.

Yeah.

I, you know, the um I don't think we got to the point of really what the proper action forward was.

Okay.

But the meeting took place, a handshook deal took place that said, hey, here's what we'll do, both sides were happy.

And that was the last of the questions.

I don't want to put JE in a bad position to settle this thing.

Ultimately it's going to get settled.

So and I want them to get as much money as they can.

So I don't want to put them in a bad spot for that.

But uh, but I didn't really get an answer to the question.

Um did you ever feel like anyone at JE?

I'm not just being on CEO.

Anybody was just trying to like hide this from the public.

Like, let's keep this to ourselves that the world doesn't find out about this.

No, I I don't feel like there was a concerted effort to hide because I do feel like we had been dealing with this for so long.

It wasn't enough people at JEA knew.

So it wasn't like you're trying to keep this hush-hush and there's two people meeting and discussing, it wasn't like that.

It just, you know, uh at where do you want to see this go publicly?

How do you want to resolve it?

Yes, sir.

Yeah, and that's good.

I mean, that's a it's what we would hope to hear.

All right.

Ms.

Pittman.

Thanks for the we went.

So, Chair, I just only have a couple of questions because I want to wait until I get the information requested.

But I know, Mr.

Wilson, you mentioned about a firm who JEA has worked with.

Is that a firm that you have been working with over a long period of time and have they done previous um surveys, or can you name the firm?

Is it a human resource fund or is it an attorney, or tell me, can you can you elaborate on that?

Is it through the chair, the the uh current JEA engagement that they are talking about, is that what you are talking about?

The survey?

Yes.

No, I'm not familiar.

Um my understanding it was the firm is somebody we already had under contract.

Uh now it may be an outside attorney, that may be a new part of engagement that I'm not aware, but my understanding it's an existing procurement contract with us.

Okay.

And and that would be one of my questions to know again, because the employees are not trusting the process.

And so if it's someone or a firm had that has already been used and or if they've had a survey in the past prior to Ms.

Kavey coming to JEA, I'd like to know who that is.

It is it the same firm or is it or is it a new firm?

Through the chair, um, Councilwoman Pittman, this is not the same firm or the same survey utilized under the previous CEO.

So there was a different survey firm that we were using.

Um it's escaping me right now the name, but this is not that firm.

And and so prior to that, um, did we have any concerns from the employees at that time, do you feel feel that you got the capacity or the number of participations of the staff that would participate in a survey um prior to now?

Yeah, through the chair.

The numbers from what I remember on the survey engagement numbers, they were in the mid to upper 70s.

And I think if I if my memory serves me correct, please don't hold me to that.

Um that that's okay.

Uh, an organization this size that was looked at as an okay engagement.

The feedback on those engagements when Vicky came in was that the employees didn't entrust the engagement.

That in essence, the way that it was set up is the squeaky wheel got the oil.

So if one person stood up and spoke up about something, the chief had to write a business case or a business plan to address that squeaky wheel.

But the squeaky wheel is quote unquote anonymous.

So you really it would the one or two people that spoke up about something really drove the lion's share of your performance management, what you are going to do for the year to fix that.

The feedback that we got is people did not trust these, did not trust the surveys because it's felt like when you link from your city email over to this thing, they know who's responding based on those responses.

One to seven, you know, one to ten, whatever.

Ms.

Pimmy, can I jump in just for a second?

Clearly from the employees that I have spoken to, it will be a challenge for JEA or us to get good responses to our survey.

They have a distrust for surveys of any kind of being tracked back to them.

If if we're going to get good results, we're going to have to convince them that this is an anonymous process and a lot of education in order to get good responses.

So that's why I asked that question.

It's a great question.

I I just want to make sure it's not you any survey is going to have those challenges by us or them.

Yes.

And I don't want you to just speak a little bit about the POP, the POP.

Can you tell me is that how it works all the time or the Chair?

It's it's a requirement.

Um because you are a utility, there's a regulation of Federal regulation, you're required that if you are no longer employed, you get process personnel outprocessed.

And what that means is your badge no longer works, your email no longer works, you can't access anything.

Um so they popped me on Thursday at 2, which told me um that my employment was ending, had ended.

Um, but in the in the weeks after that, or the 10 days after that, I got an email saying they were going to allow me to burn my annual leave to June 8th.

And that's why technically I'm still an employee, but I don't I don't have access to my emails, a calendar, I don't have an ID, I'm not authorized to conduct business on behalf of JEA.

Um I'm in this no man's land, if you will, of burning annual leave.

And so uh this is my last question.

Is there when an employee is um terminated, is everybody walked out by security, or um is there a certain certain people that because I kind of heard this that certain people get walked out and certain people don't.

So I'm just curious about how that works.

That's why I ask you about the POP again.

Yes, ma'am, through the chair.

My understanding, if you are in person in the building, you are ex you are what they do is they pop it, they pop a meeting on you and say, hey, report to this room at 2 o'clock, or they they hit you with a um a Teams meeting, and that's where they notify you you're no longer employed uh with JEA.

Um they'll have a letter for you that will outline what your options are, how many days you have to sign the letter, do you want to take severance, do you want to sue?

Like what's your different and then it's during that time that the negotiations take place based on the individual person.

So uh some people have the leverage that they can negotiate some type of settlement.

Um if you're worried about things they say uh and you don't want them talking, then you take a settlement package.

Um, and that's where uh you hear about these long um consulting contracts that nobody ever calls on you, you just basically a consultant for free for six months a year.

And again, I want you to ask their question regarding the security.

Yep.

So what's the difference between some people being walked out and some people not?

So through the chair, I haven't been involved.

The only the only I've only been in as a witness on two, maybe three of these, and they were all virtual.

So I wasn't a witness in person uh because they either take place on the second floor and I'm on the seventh, um, but the chiefs that were escorted out, or excuse me, the chiefs that were exited out of the company, if they were on the seventh floor, I wasn't in that meeting.

Okay.

Thank you very much.

Yes, okay.

President Carico, as a quasi member of this committee, I'll give you the broad discretion.

All right, thank you, uh Mr.

Chair, and thank you to the committee members.

Uh Councilman Diamond said it the best when thanking Mr.

Wilson, you know, for the courage to step forward.

I know this is this is hard.

This is difficult uh to have to have these conversations in the public eye.

Um my questions aren't directly to Mr.

Wilson, it's in the same vein of the confidentiality.

So Mr.

Wilson has talked about employees that have come to him.

He can't tell you what they're saying because they could be out it's same with Ms.

Pittman, same with yourself, same with uh Mr.

Morales on the board.

And I've gotten two messages this morning from my assistant on employees that want to speak, but they don't want to leave their name.

They want to go meet me somewhere and not tell my assistant what their name is.

I'm I'm just supposed to show up in some back room and have a conversation.

So that's challenging to me.

So my question, I guess, is to to OGC is there a way to bring in maybe the IG or the Office of Human Rights, and and these employees can have these conversations.

We can vet and validate that they are in fact, you know, JEA employees, they can speak their mind and confidence, and then that can somehow be relayed back to this committee.

I I just fear these surveys we're gonna do them.

I hope we get you know honest results from it.

But that could take weeks or months, and this is just gonna keep dragging on.

I don't think anyone wants us to drag on forever.

But is there a mechanism in government now to allow these employees to come forward, share their story, and then that trusted source could come back to this committee and say, hey, here's the seven stories that I heard from JEA employees and protect them.

Is that an OGC question, maybe to Ms.

Stephopoulis?

Through the chair to council President Caracas.

So I'm happy to look at what is the best pathway forward so that you can try to direct these individuals to the correct entity or agency.

Um, you know, I I'll talk it through with Sean Granit, he's our employment deputy as well as Mr.

Facler.

It could be that they could be directed to the OIG or there's also the whistleblower protections that could be put into place, and then that kind of goes with the OIG's office as well.

So let me look at that and I can I'm gonna follow up with you and any other member who has similar concerns so we can maybe help you identify who best to send them to.

Let me remind you, uh, Mr.

President, that um we were told by the inspector general any calls that we receive that involve fraud, financial misdealings, anything in that realm should be immediately directed to the inspector general.

We should not be we should not deal with that.

So if that's the call, that's what you should do with it.

If it's the toxic work environment, yes, we have a real challenge.

All right.

Um thank you for that option.

So I'll I'll have the meetings, I'll talk to the folks and I'll direct them as needed based on what they they tell me, I guess.

But you know, I I do feel for them in being in that position of having a fear that you know, coming forward we're getting them fired.

So I mean it's it's a tough spot for all of us.

Um, but you know, that's that's what leadership is, I guess, making tough decisions and getting things done.

Um my second question, I believe, is probably gonna be for Mr.

Facler.

Um so if you could come down.

I want to know are there different attorney client privilege and confidentiality rules for the inspector general versus this committee.

Um it's pretty well documented that the IG had a conversation with Ms.

Ross, and they spoke, and and through that conversation he determined okay, there's an issue here we need to look forward, which is when he called me to go to his office and talk through some ways that the council could help and support his investigation.

So is it different rules for the IG to have conversations outside of attorney client privilege in this committee here?

Uh microphone.

Through the chair to President Carico.

The rule is set up not necessarily to whom we would reveal information, but it's our obligation to JEA.

Um I have spoken to Ms.

Ross about that conversation.

She did speak to the IG's office.

She did not reveal the details of her conversations.

She painted the picture, explained the statutory statute, the obligations, but only spoke in generality, did not reveal the specifics of any communications with JA.

That's my understanding.

I was not there, but that's my understanding of that communication.

And Ms.

Ross and I did have that conversation beforehand that we cannot reveal JA's confidential communication.

It's my understanding she cued that line.

Okay.

But you were aware that she was going to speak to him prior to her having that conversation.

I was.

And then the memo that came out of that, that was a public record.

I know the news got a hold of that and put the memo out.

That was a public record, so that doesn't satisfy attorney client privilege.

Is that correct?

That's correct.

It was a public record.

Also, the memo was directed to outside council, not our outside council, but that private entity that sometimes we talk about, otherwise we don't.

But that was to Mr.

Dibanau.

So there is no privilege ever attached, no confidence.

As soon as it went out the door, there was never any talk of it being privileged.

Okay.

All right.

Thank you.

And thank you, Chair.

Those are the only questions I had today.

Ms.

Pittman, you want to jump back in for a second.

And to our president, that was my main concern.

I didn't want to um share any names because employees were afraid that they're not, and right now they can't talk because they're not protected.

And so I mean, I wouldn't blame them.

And so that was the reason of them calling us unless they are protected.

And if I could just respond to that, I mean my assistant told me today, the employee said, I'm not going to leave my name, I'm not going to leave my number, I'll just call back when he's available.

So they wanted to talk directly to me.

They don't even want to leave information.

So I mean they're they're clearly living in fear.

So I just want to put that on record.

Okay, before I go to other people, I want to thank Mr.

Welton.

The other council members may have questions for you as well.

And I also put out a uh a plea.

If there are other people that want to come before this committee, uh I have not had any other calls from any employees of JEA, board members, other than um other than um Mr.

Baker, who wanted to come briefly and make his statement, but I've not had any calls from anyone else.

So as we get those, we will bring them forward.

Okay.

I'm gonna give uh three minutes to other council members.

Uh Mr.

Boylan.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

First, and notwithstanding, thank you, Mr.

Wilson, Ms.

Doolittle for being here today.

I know how difficult this is.

But that being said, uh I think members of the committee uh particularly uh know my history with Article 21 and JEA.

While there was a lot of work and effort going after quote unquote the bad guys, I spent months in leadership role and working with many of my colleagues in the rewrite of Article 21 that spoke to a number of issues.

Subsequent to that, I served as four years as the uh council liaison, although not this year.

Uh during that period, I came to understand uh intimately the practices and protocol of the role of the council liaison.

So I wasn't at all surprised, and I thought it was appropriate quite honestly for uh General DeSavo to ask you to stand down because JEA board is and JEA is an independent authority.

So I do understand what you're you're being upset about that process.

But I want to speak a little bit to the out the overreach in my view that this council is doing by taking on this work.

So I review the charter again, Article 21 again today, or a couple days ago actually.

There are essentially five things we are charged and have the authority to do.

Number one, to amend the charter.

Two-thirds vote required to do that, approve the budget, appropriate JE revenues for city purposes, approve actually nominate some and approve all appointments to the JEA board, and serve uh certainly because of the work of uh uh a few years ago, a focus on reorganization and or ownership of of the utility.

I know happen to know all the members of the board.

We raised the we raised the bar with respect to their qualifications as best we could into the article.

But I want to read one section of Article 21, Section 8.

JEA shall have fully results for the administration and operation of all utility services as set out in this article.

And in order to meet this administrative and operational responsibilities, JEA, I underline JEA shall have full authority and independent authority to hire, transfer, promote, discipline, terminate, and evalue evaluate employees.

I think what we're doing here is an overreach.

And I appreciate the intent.

I appreciate the purpose.

Uh, but it uh it's to in my view far exceeds the authority that we have with respect to the current uh Article 21 of our charter.

Not to mention I also believe it's unnecessary use of tax dollars.

So, Mr.

Chair, I I appreciate you moving forward with this thing, but I just want to be on record to say that I think it's outside the purview of our our authority.

Councilmember Doniman.

I don't want to get respond, but I'll I don't want to get in a back and forth, but where was your thought on overreach when we did the exact same thing under the last administration?

That's our job, it's oversight.

And the ordinance code spells that out.

I mean, I mean I get it.

I understand you don't want us to do this, but I mean, where were you five years ago with this is overreach?

Anyway.

Uh Councilmember Peluso, three minutes.

Thank you, Chair.

Um I first want to say surveys are very common in large organizations.

As a member of the United States military in the U.S.

Navy, we had a very bad culture problem.

And these anonymous surveys were incredibly important.

Using the supervisors can be very helpful to help make sure that the rank and file are feel comfortable with this process.

So I believe that that can be done without issue.

And it's my understanding, and Kurt, you might be able to answer this.

Are is 100 percent of the employees union or most?

No.

Through the Chair, Councilman Peluso.

I think that the percentage.

Bear with me.

60, 70 percent.

It feels like it's 1,400 union, you know, seven, eight.

Well, no, no, I take that back.

No, I think it's it's much I think it's in like 80 percent union.

So a lot of folks are union, there's a ton of protections with that as well.

Yep.

What's that?

So they're nodding their heads in the back closer to 80 percent.

I don't have much time.

I I did also want to talk a little bit about the ballard contract because it was brought up.

Um you had mentioned in the past, I was upstairs while you said it, that you don't believe that politics should be involved with the contract.

Is that accurate?

That's true.

What would you define as politics, if I may ask?

Political pressure to change the award of a rightfully awarded procurement.

Uh, you're you're talking about the process of the contract.

Correct.

And so I'm sorry, go ahead.

If the person who is awarded the contract or the organization that's awarded the contract is active in a very political and partisan context, is that something that looks bad upon its clients?

So through the through the chair, Councilman Peluso, you know, the I we engage lobbyists.

We this was our fifth one.

Different businesses use different flavors of lobbyists because they have different expertise.

So, yes, for the sake of the lobby and consulting engagements, you want them to be very politically active and you want them to have good relationships with the obviously the folks we're trying to lobby against.

The reason we engaged this one is there was a change in administration in November when we got a change of president, the lobby firm we had at the time, we didn't feel like had a connection.

So the idea was let's run a RFP and let's see who's out there that would have a connection to the new White House coming in.

Understood.

Do you think it's better to do that?

Do you think it's wise for a principal with that lobbying firm to go on 899 and speak ill of the current mayor of the city of Jacksonville?

Uh through the chair.

Repeat the question, I'm sorry.

So would it be wise if the if a principal with that lobbying firm goes publicly on 899 or other uh news outlets and attacks the current mayor of the city of Jacksonville?

Yes, sir.

So through the chair, the um you think that's an appropriate thing as somebody who is representing JEA?

You know, I yeah, through the chair, I know why he did it.

Um it was it was said in the news um he was under the cone of silence or the whatever that that period is that he can now lobby and he signed up for his clients.

I get that.

Um the reality is the RFP that came back and what was there was he was not on that.

And what we have done to change those procurements moving forward is we have added, and I think it's item six, and it says we reserve the right to approve anybody that registers on our behalf.

I am just saying, and I know the time is out.

I've never seen a principal with any lobbying firm in the state of Florida, and we just have Pierantino up here, got Steve Deeb now.

Never seen any of them call into any sort of news outlet or go on a news outlet and specifically call out members who are elected officials and speaking ill of them.

And I think that that looks very bad on those who they represent.

And and I just I feel like there's a cloud of of darkness here, and I'm very appreciative of what Councilmember Boylan said.

Thank you for the extra time.

I think that he was accurate.

Uh, we are going way outside of our bounds here.

Thank you.

Okay.

I have no one else in the queue.

You're not in the queue.

So please, three minutes.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

I appreciate it.

I will try to finish up what I was trying to say the other day.

Listen, concerns about the workplace, the culture at JEA should absolutely be taken seriously.

And the decision that the GA decided to use a third party to gather input from executive leadership is reasonable step in trying to understand what those concerns are.

And by the way, I have heard from a lot of employees that they don't think there is anything to all of this.

At the same time, we must recognize that JEA employees, including its executive leadership, they are not under the authority of the City Council.

We cannot do a thing about any of this.

They report to JEA leadership and ultimately to the JEA board, which has the responsibility as an independent authority and the ability to act upon any findings.

JEA is already conducting its independent review.

This is the process that can lead to real accountability and meaningful change.

We can't implement them.

This is a complex situation with serious questions on multiple sides, including how decisions were made and how leadership is functioning internally.

That is exactly why the review must be objective, measured, trusted, and in the right purview.

In the end, this should not be about taking sides.

It should be about getting the facts and making sure the right entity, the Jackson Electric Authority, is positioned to act on them.

In your committee.

We could ask for Ms.

Cave to come up here.

Why would she come up here?

There's nothing we can do that can handle any direction that the JEA board will take.

And what's bothering, what's confusing or what concerns me is what I said at the last meeting.

This board seems to be slanted.

Maybe not everybody on this committee, but some are.