And stallings, Freeman and Lockhart.

And we will start with an opening comment by Councilmember Harrison.

Our dear Father in Heaven, we are grateful to uh gather together today to think about the things of the city and how we can uh work hard and collaborate in order to make the best decisions for the residents.

We're grateful for our staff and for public safety officers and ask for a blessing upon them as they take care of the residents and serve um our neighbors.

We are grateful for all the blessings we have in this great country and for all the liberties that we have.

And we say this in the name of Jesus Christ.

Amen.

Thank you.

All right, we'll start with our administrative report.

Can you hear me?

Can we?

Yeah.

Got that.

So uh I'll invite Steve.

I got a connect.

Hold on.

Oh, Steve is trying to connect.

So what we'd like to do today is talk through a potential for a book drop.

So we want to have a discussion about some ideas that Steve has brought up or come up with.

And then we have Christy here also to talk about the impact as far as staffing goes, what we would expect that would take to do a book drop.

So maybe Christy, if you want to come forward first.

I am going to just bring my computer up there.

So as far as staffing goes, um we looked at other um in trying to find another library that had an exterior book drop that needed to be um cleared.

We looked at Provo Library.

So we were able to look at their amount.

And according to uh what they do, they have said that they empty their book drop five times a day.

So and then it takes two people to do it.

Sorry.

No, please keep going, I'm sorry.

So um so five times a day, six days a week is 30 trips.

Each trip takes two people.

It takes them approximately um an hour and a half to go out, exchange the bins, bring the bins in, clear all that out, get them all checked in and ready as though they had gone through the automatic book drop that we currently have.

Um so that added up as 90 hours per week that we would need additional staffing for.

Um mid-range for a library page is 1273.

And so yearly that would be 4,680 hours times the 1273, it's 59,576.40.

So that's kind of the impact staffing-wise for that.

Yes.

Mayor Pro Tem?

Um part-time or full-time?

Part-time.

Okay, so no benefits.

No.

Okay.

Any other questions with that?

My only question would be uh so you're saying this is to get it to the stage, it would be as if they had collected it from inside.

So it's not like taking into account the less time that would be used when people doing the drop box inside that would use it outside.

Is there any calculation with that?

Is there any kind of reduction of hours on an on the other side because they're now using the outside book drop?

So my estimate is that if we provide the exterior book drop, a drive up book drop, that probably about 85 to 90 percent of our books will all go through that.

In many ways, that um totally wastes our automatic book check-in system that we just got two new, you know, an exterior and an interior.

Because if it's all going through that, we now have to manually hand do all of this.

And so that's a lot of what those hours are going out manually grabbing those, pulling them in, and then hand by hand just checking in all of those books.

Would they be able to feed it through the automatic system?

Like bring the bin in and run it through the drop.

So the question would be um there's no point to the, you know, there isn't a point to it because could we walk it up and then throw it through?

Yes, we could do it, but then we have to go to the other side, ooh.

Sorry, yeah, and pick it back up out of that bin and then just sort it.

We might as well just stand at a counter and hand do it and sort it as we go.

Okay.

But yes, it it kind of totally wipes out the use for the automatic um check-ins that we do have.

Okay.

Um what about using some of the existing staffing you have and consolidating some desks?

And um, you know, there's since there's two desks on the second floor.

Have you considered moving some of the automatic the you know checkouts out to the lobby area?

And I mean, I was here on a night where there was a sign on a desk that said go to the children's section.

Um, you know, if you have questions or something from the young adults.

Yeah.

So I know that you've you you have done that before.

Yeah, we do close down a desk if we don't have the staff to cover it, and we just um refer them to the other desks.

We could move those automatic in side and put like one of the exterior ones and put it on the second floor.

But here again, to what point, if 90% go through the outside drive-up book drop, who's going to be bringing it in to put it through?

Yeah, I'm just saying I don't know.

Again, to Heather's point, I don't know if we need three desks staffed.

Um it seems to me the young adults area is typically children's, it's tip it's mostly intermediate books, which is a lot of children's um books, and that they could go to the desk, the children's desks not for, and so maybe some staff could be shuffled around to help facilitate.

Because this um, you know, I know we're talking about the phone drive up phone thing, and that to me would be way more disruptive to someone's workflow than just having a set schedule where they're emptying they're emptying the a drop box certain times a day.

So it it's debatable.

I don't know.

We we do actually have a lot of business that gets done at that young adult desk because it has intermediate young adult and the media items, the music, the DVDs, um, our read-along books, our Spanish collection, all that is on that side.

And so when we have to go down because we just don't have the staffing to do it, that is the desk that we shut down.

But it actually, if somebody's there, it they're always being asked for help and helping the patrons.

So will some of the pages hours, yes, be used towards this?

Yes, but um it's it's gonna significantly increase the amount of work that they have to do.

And so just looking at uh, you know, Provo and what they've had to do.

Yeah.

Now granted I happen to Provo and their drop boxes, it depends on what the logistics are, but it's a little bit far farther away from the building.

And their population is 120% of ours.

So I would I would think that we would not have as much of demand as Provo because we don't have as large a population.

But they will have double the amount of book drops and we don't.

We would get one double book drop.

Christy, go to the next screen, it shows what that book drop is.

Let me let me go on to the next part of it and then maybe that will answer and help with some of the questions.

Thanks, Cameron.

So as soon as this pulls up, if this pulls up.

Sorry, I don't know why I'm having so many problems with this today.

So this is what we would put in for our book drops is it would just be a double station.

Uh I think what Christy's saying is there's four down in Provo currently.

Um the issue is a capacity on it.

If we we have room where we've kind of picked it out where we could potentially do three of these at most.

Uh four would be pushing it, and we'd have to change locations.

Um if we were to do that, then again, it's four of the cards.

It's four, you know, and so it's not a single person in and out.

It would be three people in and out if they were gonna get them all at once or three separate trips.

So I think that's potentially part of the issue here.

Yeah, and where they have two book drops, they can let it stay a little bit longer.

Um if you look at the slide, the capacity is only 560, and if that's if it's totally full.

We frequently have days where we have two to three thousand items returned in the day.

We we can't let it go too long without emptying.

And we actually won't be able to look in unless we somehow purchase and get IT to create cameras in there.

We have no way of knowing how many books or how few books there are.

So we just need to have a set schedule that we can go in and and check each time.

We'll sometimes be heavier duty and we have to go more often, yes.

And then there will be other times that maybe we don't have to go quite as much.

Um do you have a map of where you're gonna put this in the parking lot?

So this is kind of what um when we first started talking about this when we talked about signs.

Uh there were other issues being brought up at the same time of the ADA ramp.

Um I went and talked to an architectural firm and said how much would it cost us to be able to put the ADA ramp in with this, add an exterior door so that we're not tracking all of these carts through, make making trails when it's wet, um hitting walls from the pages, pushing these books back in and having damage to the new building.

Add an exterior door so that we're not tracking all of these carts through, made making trails when it's wet, hitting walls from the pages, pushing these books back in and having damage to the new building.

And the price tag is extremely high, and I think that we can get it done cheaper than that.

But what they're quoting is about a million dollars to 750,000, 750 to a million to put the ADA ramp in and a door repurpose that workflow room so that she would have enough room to be able to bring all these books in, go through the scanner, do that kind of thing, like we're talking about.

Yes, there are other alternatives, but that's the initial verbal quote that I'm getting.

I'm guessing it'll be closer to 500 realistically if I put it out to bid.

Um but it's an extensive cost for what we're looking at.

And so that you can see the ramp.

The book drops itself would be right out here.

We do have to change traffic patterns.

We're going to lose some parking.

We're going to have to move the ADA over into this parking lot solely due to the fact that that's going to have to be a swing in and swing out so that uh we're not impeding traffic.

So it's not as easy as just putting it in there.

If we were to put it out here, of course, we can do a different solution, but then again, we're tracking everything through the building unless we go up one of these ramps or do something like that.

There is the way that you can go in on the back side.

If we go through the back side, that's really the one that I'm most worried about is that long hallway with all the walls and the doors and everything.

Uh I think that everything's going to get beat with the I mean, because they're they're about as big as this pedestal pushing those carts through.

And when they get 200 books in them, they're they're quite heavy.

So have them having the pages push those through, they will.

Anything else?

Any other questions?

Um have you looked into having the scanner technology put on these?

It would that be possible.

I did contact um Circe Dynex and ask them about it and Envisionware, and um they have said that they do not have this technology, they're not able to do it.

In order to do it, they would have to have significant, you know, they're gonna have to have power and everything else to those boxes.

Um, but that they've they've never done that to an exterior drive-up book drop.

They they're concerned about water getting in and you know.

Yeah, yeah.

Are you considering putting a locker some kind of signage on it for it to be closed on the holidays or weekends?

Um we certainly could, but rarely do exterior book drops have that on there.

Um you can make it so that there's a padlock that you can lock the the actual mouth of the drop box.

Um and we could do that, but it it just may be that I don't know.

Currently our Sundays, um, we don't have a significant amount of items coming through the exterior book drop.

I don't know if that would change my my guess is that that would change, um, but I think it would be doable to not do Sundays.

My concern it would be holidays that would just have to have people in on holidays, have a couple assigned.

And Steve, for this ramp.

And this is just an alternative to the current ramp.

Correct.

This is alternative.

This is all hypothetical at this point.

So realistically, this is one of the major complaints that we've had with the building is ADA access.

How do we get into the building?

Um we're working on signage to point them to the actual ADA ramp, of course.

Uh everything takes time.

I mean, we ordered those signs two weeks ago and they got installed this morning for the book drop areas.

Um it everything takes time, and so that's part of it is we just get what did the walkthrough with uh landscape today, and now we can go ahead and put those in and do what we need to do.

So yeah, what I would that's why I was pointing it in this direction is that would help suffice.

You see it, it's very visible, it's up front.

Same issue that we have over broadband with the broadbent room where the ADA ramp is not very visible, it's all the way around the side.

Something that we should have learned on that building and we didn't.

So I mean that's did you ever look into that?

Because I know that's something that I prefer.

It will happen, it'll happen before the next budget.

It will get done.

Okay.

Waiting for a slow minute for our street department to help you pour it.

So we've got the lines at Wines Park, so I'm super excited for the Sunday concert.

So I'll take parking lines.

I'm ready to move that concert anytime.

Christy, I did have a question too.

Did you look at American Fork?

Because they have uh two-level library as well, but their checkout, I think Rachel brought this up, that they have a consolidated checkout station in the library, not on each floor.

Um they also have an exterior book drop that's kind of far away.

So have you and I think this might have been what she was referring to, then instead of three different checkout stations, maybe just have one centrally located one and use those employees to help with the book drop instead.

So American Fork actually does have three desks.

Um usually they're considered reference desks, not checkout desks.

Um because mostly what we're doing um at those desks, like the young adult desk is a reference.

It's helping people find what they need, all that.

We do very little checking out at that desk.

Um the other two are where the majority of checkout and quite frankly, most of our patrons, about 90% of our checkouts are done through the self-check.

That's why we have so many self-checks, because that does happen there.

Um and the vast majority of what we do at the desks is reference.

Um is is there something that you have a concern about those desks?

They they aren't check-in areas.

We don't have any patrons turning in items there.

If if you don't mind if I interject.

Um so I think what what they're suggesting is um if we didn't staff those desks, we instead of increasing the budget for employees, we could just use current employees to collect the books.

Um but what I'm hearing you say is that um if that were to happen, it might just lower our our standard for serving patrons.

And so the question then becomes do we what standard do we want our employee do we want our employees available to answer questions for at each one of those areas, or are we willing to sacrifice some of that standard in order to have them go out and collect books?

Is that sounds?

Yeah, and I I lower standards um it might improve in other ways, you know.

Sure, I just disability and dropping off books and and that might be a question for residents to find out which they value higher having somebody conveniently on each separate little library section to talk to you, or need to have the convenience of a book.

Yeah, and I don't mean that to be derogatory.

I just mean I think it sounds like Christy has a a certain expectation or standard for what she wants to have available inside the library, and it's just shifting those employees to a different responsibility.

Right.

Maybe a shifting that standard to a different place, like what you're saying.

Yeah, and there are two different um classifications on those jobs as well.

Um pages are paid a different wage than what clerks are.

And if we're expecting all of them to do all the same thing, then I think we need to make our pages clerks and pay them more because I don't think it'll go well if we take our clerks and say we're gonna make you a page and so then we have to pay you less.

Um that that doesn't make sense.

Or then our pages turn around and say, but they're doing we get only paid this much and they're doing the same thing we're doing.

So we do have some some concerns there with we've got different classifications.

Um could the clerks do some of that and help with that?

I'm sure they could.

Here again, are we messing with job descriptions and classifications and then it does lower the level of service that we're able to give.

People our patrons do like having someone there at the desk that they can say, hey, where do I find this?

And that's a lot of what we do.

We're directing them, we're giving them you know, uh recommendations, we're helping them with whatever they need.

So do you think that this could be a position that's even lower than a page that what you needed, which is basically come in, scan the books, but then you you also wanted them they would be doing I guess the other part of it too, of putting them away.

But I'm trying to think about like the process of getting it to where you would have it for the automatic book drop is there's something where it's I don't know, where it could be like a a part-time position.

I'm almost thinking like crossing guard kind of level positions where we have somebody come in and do shorter hours.

Uh well at this point I'd say most of our pages are paid about 1090 an hour.

Okay.

I don't know that we can go much lower than that.

Okay.

I mean, I feel like it's criminal to pay them that.

Yeah.

They do a lot more work.

It's our hardest physical job that we have in the library.

They do a lot of work for that.

And so and really what this job would be would be right in line with what pages are doing now anyways.

It's what they do.

Yeah.

They check books in, they sort them, they get them out back on the shelf.

And it is a big job.

But anything else?

Any comments or more questions?

Well, you can figure out staffing.

I've I come to the library very often, incognito, and I I do notice that there aren't very many people at the asking questions at the desk whenever I'm there, if any.

Um however you want to rearrange your work out your staffing for that.

Yeah, I know you I know you can do it.

I'm sure that we can we can support some staffing, but I'm not sure if we need to do it the full amount right away when we're not sure what's gonna happen with the use of the drop box.

So that's where I'm at.

I I I support the purchase price of the um two boxes.

I I think I would like if you have time to go walk where you're gonna put them, so I can at least visualize it and see it.

Um and then I'm I think this is something our residents really want, and I'm gonna stand in support of that.

And so um the support that you need from a staffing level, I'm happy to get behind.

Um I think to council member Freeman's point, maybe we start with one additional and then slowly add someone on if we see the demand rising, because I don't think we'll immediately go to probo levels, but if I'm wrong, I'll eat my words and and support you guys there.

But I I know our residents really want this, and so I'm happy to support the solution that delivers that for our residents.

I think the big part though is it's a two-person job, right?

So are you talking about like we need to bring two people on to be able to do it or yeah, if that if that's what it takes, I'll support that.

Yeah.

Sorry, one other question, that's okay.

I just want to see the have you and I don't know.

I know there was a lot of talk at the beginning of wanting the book drop.

Is that still been consistent, like as far as comments made?

Are people still asking about it, wanting it?

I you were saying that the ADA access seems to be a much higher priority.

This just kills two perks with one stone.

To do it.

That's why I've even proposed to do the ramp with where this book drop is.

My my concern with putting the book drop in the back of the of the building is truly um honestly, this building's the only building that we have that we don't constantly have issues with our doors.

Um, and it's because it's brand new.

Uh I'll I'll talk later on.

But we have roughly 36,000 um visits to to the legacy center every day.

That's visits, uh door open, door close.

Um then you start pushing books in a huge cart through that, even if it's only six, seven times a day, we are gonna get damage.

Um and that's what really worries me about it.

We we intentionally did not put a book drop on this building.

I mean, this isn't something that we went and said, okay, yeah, we just don't want to do it.

Uh we we spent weeks deciding can we, how do we do this?

Uh the library staff fought for it.

They wanted it.

We have to have this, we have to have this.

And we intentionally said, okay, it's not worth the cost, it's not worth the price that it's going to be, it's not worth the security risk.

Um we understood that there was going to be kickback from the residents.

We knew that there was going to be kickback from the residents.

The problem is now I I don't think that our current council saw that hard work that we did on it, and you're getting just the resident side of it.

Um so the solution is similar to this.

I mean, if I show you this, well, I don't have it on this sheet, but anyway, I'll show you as an example on the sheet.

So pretend that this is the other side of the building.

Sorry.

Now I'm gonna go negative.

Steve, you want a mouse?

Yeah, well, I have them.

Thanks for that.

And by no means do I mean that negative at all.

I just so you guys know it is kind of the background.

So pretend this is the other side of the building.

Just flipped.

We have a study room right here.

We talked about, okay, what if we put the book drop right outside there and put an elevator up to it?

We also have a door with stairs for an emergency access there.

What if we put a ramp there that they could push them up?

Um all of those options, the the study room that takes out a huge chunk of everything inside of the library to be able to use that room as a sorting room.

Um the stairs are too steep to get our egress out for ADA or to push up a cart or ramp in there.

Um we talked about how do we do it out in the parking lot here.

And then you have the rumble strips from all the ADA, you've got all the concrete joints, and so everything that we push through there is gonna be more wear and tell or tear not only on the carts but on the wheels, which bring into the building, which bring into the tile, which bring into our cleaning staff, which bring into all of it.

And so that's why we I ended up on that ramp with the door into its own private room.

So we keep the mess in there and it's done all through where it's supposed to be done.

Um anyways, it's a huge cost.

I understand it's a huge cost, but again, it does help with two issues in the long run.

So if we were going to do it, I feel like that's the safest way, not only for security of the building, which is an extensive cost that we've already put forward to keep everybody that is in here safe.

And I don't think we want to degradate that just due to we want to have convenience for book drop, if that makes sense.

So can you show us the next slide where your assistants are?

Um, yeah, let me show you where I where I kind of have it placed now that I have a mouse, and I'm still gonna do the exact same thing.

So this island over here on the corner where we have that planter, we would um take out part of that, bring the curb in on that to be able to create our in and out.

So it could be accessed this way only or turned in from going south, be able to use the three book book drop right here, and then that would tie directly onto that ramp where they could go straight up into their secure or into their sorting room, which is right off this landing right here.

If it I don't I can't, I'm not sure I can fully get behind the ramp, just the cost.

It's it's a huge cost.

I totally agree.

That's a lot, but if we don't do that ramp, you're saying the other option is to take go from the far north side of the building.

Far north side of the building.

So bring them through that long hallway.

Bring them through that long hallway.

Yep.

I'm more inclined to get behind the ramp because it serves our residents, and that's what I've been concerned about having the access.

The engineering cost, it was an it's an architectural engineering estimate that I've gotten.

Um that was from three different firms, it went from 750,000 to 1.2 million dollars.

I totally believe we can get it done cheaper than that.

Um, but until I know that's the direction you want to head, I can't give you a harder number because I haven't solicited anybody to go, hey, come on, help me out here.

So and I'm happy to do that.

I just need to know that direction.

And I think it would be better off for our library staff to be able to go right into it.

It is gonna squeeze them in that room, frankly.

Uh, right now we've got two desks in there.

Um those are it's gonna have to consolidate it down to a large room with a single desk that's in an open area that everybody else is gonna come in.

So when they are working at that desk, it's gonna be harder for them to actually do their job because they're gonna have all the pages in there scanning books and doing whatever they're doing, which I know that is a large concern.

Yeah, so I mean, this is this isn't a great solution, but hence again we went down every other avenue.

We talked about tunnels, we talked about conveyor belts, we've talked about everything that you can imagine under the sun to be able to get these books inside and do it safely.

So well, thank you for explaining it.

To me, it looks like a good solution.

Uh you know, of course I want to go with the I want to go right with the flow.

But since the drivers is the drivers are gonna be the ones doing it, it makes sense you have to go this way.

Yeah, and um with you, I think it it it's so easy just oh yeah, just put a box out there.

But once you get down into the weeds of it, it's like, oh, okay, hold on.

How do we actually make this work?

So when we were brainstorming this, we're talking about having to change the crosswalk.

So the crosswalk right now is um it's actually just south of it a little bit anyway.

So I don't think we'll have to change the crosswalk.

The mid-block crossing was always supposed to go away.

The mid block one, yeah.

Okay.

But this one where it's lined up, I don't believe that we'd have to change that.

Okay.

Maybe I'd have to get with our traffic engineer.

Like I said, this is this is 100% me throwing it on a piece of paper saying this is how I would do it.

Okay.

So for the the ramp, I know you've received a lot of questions on the ramp.

Is it mostly because they can't find it, or is it because of the far away is the problem.

It's all the way up in the back corner of that alcove.

And so it really is.

It's a it's a hard something we should caught up from.

When you have ADA parking, when you have on this side and you have the ramp on that side.

Yeah, yeah.

Exactly.

Well, and we do have ADA stalls out here.

It's not painted because that wasn't part of their contract.

Okay.

It's getting painted now.

We are gonna correct it.

It's just everything's in due time.

So yeah.

It's really hard to get things done.

Have you thought about putting the ramp?

Sorry.

Go ahead.

Have you thought about putting the ramp out to that parking lot?

I think the visual effect on that would be awful.

The visual?

Yeah.

Okay.

I have thought about it.

I did I did brainstorm it.

I can't find a good corner to pull it off of that's actually easy access to the doors to be able to do that and make it look right.

Yeah, it's it's a harder one.

You kind of want them, they're a long parallel thing.

And so if I was going to do that, I'd want to redo the landscape and build it up to it.

And that's we don't want it.

That's going to be a lot more.

So Steve, just this street that you're showing here, that's first ease.

Yeah, that's this side of the building.

So this is we're sitting basically right here.

Okay.

So we would lose some of the Yeah, the plants on this side, we probably would just leave a hole on the back side of it and line it up with the concrete.

It's going to be our cheapest bet.

And I have utilities inside of that.

We have conduits and such.

So I don't necessarily want to bury that, the depth of the ramps.

Um so we would probably just bring it off and do handrails on both sides, and we're gonna have to clean out debris and weeds and leaves and everything that blow down in that for the foreseeable future.

But we'll have handrails on both sides and a hole on this one side, just plant some hostas in it or something.

Could you fill it up with dirt?

I don't want to fill it up because we have the utility underneath it that I don't want to bury any deeper than it already is if we have to get into it.

But we would lose some of our ADA parking on that side.

Yeah, but we'll add more out here when we paint.

Anything that we lose, we will add more to.

It will.

We'll be a net zero on that.

I think I kind of lean, I lean toward having I mean I know I know it's a lot of door openings, but just personally for what it's worth, I would rather leave the ramp as is not put in an additional ramp just simply because of the cost.

Um but then have the ADA parking closer to the existing ramp and then have the books come in through the north door.

That's just my I think that's probably the most cost effective way.

It is absolutely the most cost effective.

Long term it's gonna be a lot more wear on the building, but cost-wise up front, I don't disagree at all.

Is there any place to do this kind of drop over on this side by the ramp so that they would come into the parking lot and do a drop?

The problem is is that they would be tracking through the lobby anyway that we do that.

Who would be tracking through it?

The books.

Oh, the books would come, but yeah.

But then it's not that that not that that can't be solved.

Uh I will say that it will be more cleaning on our end.

Um right now we have two people cleaning this building, and it is a tough job.

So if it was coming up that ramp and the parking was there, the ADA was there, and it we could still add the door without having to do this second ramp, right?

Then we have a lot more corners on the outside that they're gonna have to try and maneuver.

Yeah, I'm a little concerned getting those carts up through down that ramp and through without just spanging everything up.

The way that this ramp works, it's long enough that we can do a straight shot.

We do have to level off halfway through for a resting area on a ramp.

And so the resting areas over here, what they did is a zigzag, so they go up, then they have the level off, and then they go up, and then they have a level off.

And so it's a lot longer here, and so we just added two more corners, and then they're gonna have to go around the corner down the whole front of the building, around a corner, and then around a corner again to be able to do that.

Again, we're talking about maneuvering the cart.

This isn't really technical.

It's just when they get to be hundreds of pounds, yeah.

It's gonna be an issue.

We get we get some of those 15-year-old kids out there trying to push them.

Uh that really is a yeah.

Um if I if we had to replace the north door, how much does that cost?

Um that's a really loaded question.

Right now, so one door downstairs is 46,000 for a single man door that we're still waiting on to get replaced.

Okay.

Uh that's an interior door.

So I would say those are double doors.

There's four of them, a hundred thousand.

Okay, so I'm just taking 1.2 million, dividing it by a hundred thousand.

And we could we could replace the door twelve times and still be totally fine.

Right.

So I I hear you on the door wear and tear, but I don't think we're gonna replace the door twelve times anytime soon.

I don't know either.

Like I said, this was to kill two curves with one stone.

This was not just thinking about book drop, but also thinking about the 88 axis and some of the comments that I've got personally.

Yeah, no, it's fair.

I just I no I totally agree.

And I agree with James.

Yeah.

This is not the cheapest solution to solve this problem.

I don't I don't disagree with that.

And the as far as pushing it and having these pages push the carts.

Um just something that came to my mind when you go to Costco and you see them using the auto dolllies.

You know, the yeah, the dollies, but they're they're powered.

I wonder if there's a solution.

It might be a few thousand dollars, but it might be a solution that at least doesn't make it such a physical job, right?

So I'd be open to that as well if it helps.

I can help with the new side.

What I'm hearing though is let's pretend it's bad weather and not a sunny day.

And you're having pushing in carts with mud or snow or water.

That's that's the issue going through the building instead of to a speech interior room that's just for sorting, right?

Yeah.

Okay.

And and basically what what I'm seeing is in the winter months, I'm gonna have a dedicated staff person mopping that hallway constantly.

Because any time that they do it, they're gonna track ice melt, they're gonna track water all the way up and down the whole lobby.

I can't have that inside of a public building without having wet floor signs out, and we don't want wet floor signs out with one of them correctly.

So I mean, anyway, we loaded this.

We're gonna add some labor costs.

If it's not pages, it's gonna be janitorial.

If it's not janitorial, it's gonna be something.

And I mean it's fair.

We can we can find a solution.

That's not that's not the issue.

It's those big rugs.

Well, and everything else.

If you have patrons walking in and out, I mean they won't have the dolly, the water, whatever snow from the dolly, but you have people walking in and out in that kind of weather too.

So they'll they'll track.

Oh, it's still trap.

Don't get me wrong, we're still gonna have to mop it and clean it and do some of that.

Don't I'm not saying that we don't.

This is just gonna add six or seven, eight more trips every year.

Maybe or if you have less people coming in and out just dropping off books, maybe it'll say some.

I don't know.

But I have a walk-off area for them to walk in on.

The carts won't get clean on that whole thing.

Right.

The carts are what the problem is.

The best majority oh sorry, go ahead.

The vast majority of what has happened in the past, and what I can almost guarantee will happen, is that every patron will go through the drive-up book drop.

They were drop all their box or put their books in those boxes, and then they'll pull into the parking lot and they'll walk in.

Well, I think especially with the children's section on the second floor.

That's what I've noticed myself, because that's where I go.

And I go right up there.

And then I realize I have books in my hand that I have to turn in, and we have to go back down and turn them in because it is not a way to turn them in upstairs.

So I can see that happening for a lot of moms who have a lot of kids and a stroller that's probably equal in size to one of those dollies and you know, double stroller and all of that stuff.

So could we look at a cost for adding a door and try to use the other room?

Sure.

I would like to.

I'm happy to do that.

Um I'm working as fast as I can.

Let me go that way.

So I will I will try and get a more reasonable cost on it and bring it back to you guys and let you see what it is.

Uh we do have the signs out there for right now.

What else would you like to see done before that?

This one we have three to four patrons a week that have called in and asked us to either bring out the holes or something or something here.

And how is that on staff?

That is a three or four a week as probably.

It's not too purchased some of that number.

Yours.

Um it sometimes it takes a few minutes for them to get enough staff, not do it.

But at those numbers, it's not a problem.

If it's too many people, then yeah, it'll become a problem.

When people are calling, are the clerks going or the pages going?

Sorry, when people are calling, are the clerks or pages going out?

The clerks are going out.

Okay.

I don't want a 15-year-old walking out into who knows what to a car.

Okay.

Yes.

I think that solution solves it solves the problem for for maybe folks that have disabilities or mobility issues.

If you're a busy mom with three kids or whatever in your car, they probably don't want to wait three, four or five minutes.

They'll probably just run in, right?

And bring the books.

Okay.

So any more questions or comments.

Do you want more information?

Are you ready to give directions?

Thoughts here on that.

Can I just clarify the direction?

You want me to investigate this farther with the ramp and the door and the remodel of that room to see at that what a cost would be to finalize that.

And then at that point we can make a decision on where and how we put the book drops.

Is that correct?

Also looking into the electricity.

Motorized, yeah.

And also automating the book drops.

Yeah.

Okay.

Is there another option?

Come on.

I'll stand in here.

Yeah, I I think just explore all the options that bring the cost down as much as possible.

I I'm not loving the million dollar price tag.

Like I I can't do that.

As I said, I truly believe it'll be closer to $500,000.

But even that's a lot of money.

I'm not disagreeing, but other than that.

Yes.

Yeah.

So I think if it maybe was a little bit more broad of a scope of whatever.

And then i I don't know how the rest of the council feels, but I'd love to walk it with one of you.

And when you have time at your convenience, whatever works for you guys.

Set up an appointment, I'm happy to do that.

Yeah, I think I once if I yeah, I just want to be able to see it.

Thank you.

Yeah, absolutely.

I do that sound good.

The rest of the council in that direction.

Okay.

And Christy, I sometime when you're available, I would like to go see the rooms and what your people do just to get a better thing.

Yeah.

How much space you have.

You want to do that.

I could.

That's my daughter's dream is to work in the library, so she might volunteer.

I don't know.

Yeah, that's my question.

Okay.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

Okay.

Is that all for the administrative report?

Thank you.

Okay, we'll turn to the discussion items 3.1, Steinway pi piano policy and fees discussion.

Yeah.

All right.

Well, uh good afternoon, Council.

Just a brief introduction.

Um my name is Ben Maxfield.

I'm a management analyst.

Um pretty pretty new here at the city, but I've above my time here with Leo so far.

Um today uh we're gonna be talking about uh the piano that we've got downstairs.

We've got a beautiful piano, um and we want to make sure that it is um taken care of as well as as accessible as possible to to the public.

So um we've put together um some revised potential fees for this as well as a policy that uh that we'd like some some feedback on.

Um so just as a quick overview of what this policy is going to cover, kind of the the big big points um is that uh in general the the piano will be available for all to use to come in and use for free.

Um the idea is that there's gonna be a QR code right there by the piano that residents can come in and scan and they can um look times to to play the piano.

Um there'll be a set of policy or uh it'll be a policy or agreement that the residents will agree to when they click this.

Um and uh then they'll they'll be able to play um in in a walk-in format.

Um we've also simplified the the recital um the piano fees to to a base recital fee and a moving fee.

Um so these are the new proposed fees that we have.

Um we're looking at a $25 per hour um recital reservation, regardless of if it is in the main lobby or in one of the community in in the community room, um, as well as uh a 45 dollar flat fee um for moving the piano into the community room.

Um keeping in mind that that uh the piano will still be available for non-recital purposes.

Um it'll be free during during public hours, and there will be additional um additional there there are also costs for renting the rooms as well to be to be taken into account.

Um this is what we've got for the for the policy.

Um I'll just run through these really quick, and if you have any questions, feel free to free to stop me.

Um the first is that the piano is available for free public use during normal civic center operating hours.

Individuals wishing to reserve the piano may use the online portal to schedule the playing times.

Um then this, what I was mentioning before.

A QR code linking to the reservation portal should be made readily available in the civic center lobby near the piano.

Um free public use reservations may be made in 30 minute increments.

Recitals may be scheduled for evenings and on weekends.

Um and then back to the to the fees.

Recital reservations will cost 25 per hour, and an additional 45 dollar moving and labor charge will be required for recital reservations in a city community room.

Moving on, um kind of just some general general um maintenance policies in order to keep to maintain the the quality of the piano.

Um piano players must have clean hands.

No food or drink should be near the piano and no items should be placed on the piano.

No unsupervised young children should be near the piano.

Piano players should maintain an appropriate volume, style, and duration while using the piano to maintain a respectful tone in the lobby.

The piano may not be moved, altered, or used with external equipment without explicit permission given by the facilities manager.

City staff may restrict or end piano use if this policy is not followed.

And users are responsible for exercising reasonable care while using the piano.

Any damage resulting from misuse, negligence, or violation of this policy may result in the assessment of repair or replacement costs to the party responsible.

And this is just some uh policy for the maintenance of the piano.

It's quick.

Um we've got all cleaning, tuning, and service will be coordinated by the facilities manager.

This includes moving the piano, unauthorized piano maintenance is strictly strictly prohibited.

The piano will be tuned at least quarterly and additionally as needed following relocation or prior to scheduled performances and during non-working hours and when not in use in a community room, the piano should remain covered.

Um so that's that's what we've got.

Um again, going back to to our proposed fees here, these fees are largely um to cover the cost of things like maintenance, tuning, um, and and kind of setup takedown that will be um a cost for staff when when setting up these these recitals.

Yeah, councilman.

Um if they choose to leave the piano where it is and have a piano recital, is our chairs in the lobby area included?

Yes, yeah.

And how many are we going to put that in the policy so they know you get 50 chairs or 60 chairs or whatever it is?

Yeah, we certainly could.

We could add a number of number of chairs there.

Okay.

And then if they need additional chairs, there's a setup fee of some kind, I'm assuming.

Yeah, yeah, we could definitely do something like that.

Can you explain the fees for the community room?

That would be in addition to these if someone decides to do that.

Yeah, so the community room fees um, which were discussed at a previous and passed at a previous council council meeting.

Um I've got um listed here for residents that will they range between 150 dollars and 400 uh per hour.

Um so residents on on weekdays would be 150, non-residents on weekdays would be 200, residents on weekends or 300, and non-residents on weekends are 400 per hour.

Per hour.

Yeah.

So those have been that was approved prior, so that if that is something that we wanted to look at again, we could I assume we could we could rework those as well.

And that's for that entire space downstairs.

That would be for the community room downstairs.

Okay.

I'm just trying to reconcile how you can have an appropriate volume style and duration if you're having a recital in the lobby.

That's just something, you know.

I don't know what that's kind of vague to me.

Were you saying recitals were only available on the weekends and evenings?

That's the plan right now.

Yes.

So maybe it's okay.

Um I mean the library is open to what, eight?

So there is some question about um what kind of impact having somebody just reserve the piano and come play during business hours could have on like the info center, for example.

So I think those kind of things will have to kind of play it by ear, see how difficult it is to hear through the glass during those moments and maybe decide if we need to make some adjustments to when that piano is available.

Um but talking with Christy about um any potential impact on the library with somebody playing, she felt like that that's something they could work around.

So I think the info center is maybe more of a concern.

But uh yeah, it's probably something we're gonna have to investigate as we go along.

I do have a question about the the recitals in the lobby.

Yeah.

If they have chairs, I mean it's a big lobby, but I is that going to impede access or be a fire code issue.

No.

Do we are we gonna limit like how many chairs they could put up or uh yeah, I mean, would we would be within compliance, we'd make sure that it's not impeding or anything.

You know, certainly would not probably not be able to fit as many chairs in the lobby as you would in the community rooms would be you know a smaller event.

I I know our event staff has looked into that.

They have uh reached out to our uh fire marshal to make sure that would be appropriate and and the number of chairs.

I don't know what the number is off the top of my head.

So maybe we could find out that number and just make sure they know it's limited.

Yeah, we'll include that in the reservation um platform to the use.

I think I think with if it does become kind of a nuisance in the main lobby.

I think down the road, if that's the case, we could permanently relocate it to a community room.

So I'm thinking for people using it for free, reserving through the QR code, it's probably gonna be folks that are practicing the piano, want to keep up their skills that don't have a piano at home, potentially.

So and maybe it would be moved less if it is in a community room.

But I guess we'll just have to see if the info center can handle the noise.

Yeah.

Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, if it was in the community room full-time, it would just definitely be different uh different setup here, different pieces.

I do love the QR code idea where they can just scan it and schedule it.

And I there's just known kids who don't have pianos in their homes and use like keyboards or to be able to play on something like that'll be very important.

Yeah, it's a beautiful piano, and we want it to be as accessible as possible.

Yeah, that's there an online way to reserve like is there gonna be a link on our website?

Yeah, yeah, we can also do that.

So you can be, you know, from home, you can check the schedule and say, okay, I can come in in an hour and play.

So yeah, you there will be a way to do that as well.

Perfect.

Um something that we talked about before was that this piano was didn't really need to be tuned except twice a year.

I don't know if remember, I remember Heather saying that, and I also said that because it does say that it says the piano will be tuned at least quarterly, but it I do not think that's necessary from what we've done.

Um I don't know if who said that this needs to happen, but I think that we discussed that previously.

I think it's the more you move it, the more it goes out of tune.

So that's if you move it to a different environment.

Okay.

Since we're in the same like humidity-ish temperature, and we're not moving floored, we're not going outside.

When you take it when we take an instrument outside, that's when it changes.

So I I actually asked people that brought it here and was part of that conversation.

They basically said if you're moving it, so we we actually have a cart getting installed on it tomorrow.

Um, but what their concern is the bumps that you'll be going over the transition, things of that nature.

They highly suggest it more than quarterly, uh, depending on the usage.

So that's kind of why we've necked it back to the quarterly with that.

So yes, you're right.

Where it's all in the same environment and all of that, they weren't worried about it.

It's going through the different things and transition and mock friction on the on the legs that was.

Yeah, so I would think um just with the prices we have for the community rooms and all of that.

I mean, I know that this was given as a donation and the idea it's for the community, but if there's our problems with people playing the piano down there because of noise or whatever, then I would also support just kind of having it located in a place where I guess we don't have to worry about moving it.

We don't have to um worry about disturbing other departments and finding a way that we can keep that open.

So I love looking at it down there, but I don't love that we're just looking at it and it's not being used.

So I'm trying to reconcile that.

Yeah, that's my big I'm excited.

Glad you incorporated all the ideas that you did into this.

This is great.

Um I think that you'll find a lot of people come and play because it is a Steinway, those who are professional, kind of or higher level two want to come play on that.

I think we also need to be mindful of honoring the what the donation was for.

And it a huge part of that was for the community space, the library is supposed to be enjoyed.

I don't think it was really seen as something where community members could have a place to come and practice as much as it is it's an art piece too.

So I do think if we can find ways to make sure that we're not impacting the info center and other areas, but then it is something that is that we can have people come in and play and it is enjoyed by everybody, that would be the vision of why it was donated to us.

So I I'd want to be really careful of that too.

And but I know this is something we're gonna have to play by ear and see how it goes and making sure that we don't impact those who are working here and those who are coming to use the library for you know the the quiet that's there and that they can study.

So basically if someone's gonna have a recital in the community room, they're gonna pay uh at least $100 for one hour plus $45 plus $25.

Yeah, that'd be correct right now.

Okay.

Yeah.

I just I'm gonna say that's probably not really accessible, making it accessible to the community, in my opinion.

But that's I mean that's a lot, especially for a piano teacher that charges like you know, fifteen to thirty bucks a student, and you can maybe have 10 students play in an hour, like I'm just saying that's you know, you charge a recital fee, but I'm just talking realistically from someone who do you know?

So I don't have experience, I don't play the piano, but how much are other venues like if they did a private one?

I know my kids would go to Best In Music.

I mean, I have children who go participate in recitals and it'll be it'll be like 125, but it'll be for like a four-hour period, right?

Or a certain um yeah, it'll be for it certain more than an hour period.

So it's yeah, didn't we look up summer haze when we were talking about I thought it was like 50.

Yeah, we there was Danes, wasn't there?

And there was summer haze, and there were some other music stores that rent out their rooms and that include really nice pianos.

Um I thought that we I we probably texted about it, but I or talked about it, but I can't remember what I'm saying.

But I think it was somewhere around because I almost felt like I get that we're trying to recoup the cost of the maintenance with it in doing the moving, and but for the expense of the community room, I almost felt like if you rented out the community room, you should have access to the piano.

But maybe there's a moving fee.

I don't know if there's should be an additional recital fee.

Maybe that's more for the lobby.

Yeah, I think the idea with the moving fee was that it will take two people to move it, and we want and they'll be on probably on Steve's staff, and so we want to make sure that we're gathering getting paid for what is gonna cost to move it.

We also want to be able to over time be able to have that money that will pay for tuning it.

I understand you know, renting the community room, and on top of that, that that is quite a bit.

And so that's why we're hoping you know, making it available just to use in the lobby could be a great alternative for those people that might not want to move it into a community room, pay that extra fee.

Um because uh you you probably can get 40 to 50 people sitting in the lobby watching, listening to somebody play.

Um but that was the reasoning behind the moving fee was to make sure that we're compensated for the staff time and also preparing for the maintenance that's gonna be required for that.

And do we we have insurance costs on it too as well, right?

Do you know if there's insurance on this?

To move it or to just in just insured.

The piano is insured, yes.

Yeah, well, I'm so we pay for that insurance.

I just I agree with that that I would like to see whatever we charge to kind of cover those costs.

Um we might not be as competitive with private places, but I think that's part of this, you know, the draw they bring in customer, you know, advertise their whatever, where they sell pianos or music.

So it there's other options besides this and the lobby is a great, you know, and having it on times when the info center is closed.

So I'm thinking the clapping might be more disruptive than piano playing.

Um but I yeah, I would like I just I would like to make sure that the charge covers the costs.

Yeah.

And we did do uh quite a bit of research on the community space, just considering it even as like a reception venue, not necessarily for a recital space.

And so the prices that we determined for that compared to other cities and their types of community rooms that are of a similar quality.

We feel like we're competitive in those prices as well, while being very affordable compared to a private venue that you might rent for reception.

So I guess we could do a separate fee for recitals, but the idea of making it available kind of for whatever purpose is kind of how we came up with those fees.

So is the default position gonna be the lobby?

So if there's a recital at 2 p.m.

on Saturday, it'll be moved there at some point prior and then moved back to the lobby.

Okay.

And I don't know like the reservation system, if if it's Info Center that's going to be taking these reservations, if if there's back-to-back recitals, right?

Does only one party pay for the moving fee?

Right.

Because I want it to be literally for the moving fee, right?

So if if there's three parties that book it on the same day, I don't want them all getting charged 45, if that makes sense.

Or we could one of the things I talked about too is it'd be really cool if we had you know once a every other month or something like that.

Like this was a recital day.

Yeah.

And that people could then book that day and the moving fee was already covered for them.

And then we're not also having to move it a bunch of times because the entire Saturday is going to be back-to-back recitals.

Yeah.

That's another option is maybe recitals are less frequent, but on one day where you know we've got three, four all lined up, and so that moving fee can drop down because it's split.

It's also an option.

Just so you know, Day Marie Music charges $40 for an hour.

But they require two hour minimum.

So that's for a recital hall.

Um I think what Councilmember Stalling says was a really good point that there's a reason they want them in their store too.

Um I think having the recital in the lobby, I'm we're definitely concerned about the the noise and stuff, but I think it's incredible because I mean you could have people sitting on all three levels and hearing that recital.

So it's a it's a really cool space to have it.

No pressure at all.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, exactly.

The mayor can hear your research.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

Anything else?

Any other comments or questions?

Thank you, Ben.

Appreciate all the time you spent on this.

Excuse me.

Okay, we'll have item 3.2, the nice health care discussion.

Good afternoon, council members.

I'm back to discuss the nice health care.

Um last time you guys discussed is I was not here, but just as a quick review.

Uh I believe there are questions about uh more about nice health care, the cost, the benefits, how we can continue the benefit for this year, and then look at further options after that.

And so we reviewed the contract and and I also sent this information to you in an email.

Hopefully you had a chance to read that.

Um but our current contract with NICE can extend for another 12 months through June of 27 at the same cost, $45 per full-time employee uh per month.

And that was in the budget that you guys approved.

Um then since then we also had a meeting with NICE Healthcare, uh, Councilmember Freeman was able to attend that meeting.

Um she was able to ask her questions or uh share feedback, right?

Um and we're happy to answer any other questions at this time.

So David, for the so just so I'm clear, the when it came before us and Andrew presented that was a renewal to start it was a renewal for 2027, right?

Right.

So since I've learned that the contract we signed last year had a maximum of 24 months.

So they were looking at renewing that contract for a new 24-month window to start and end in June of 28.

Okay.

All right.

That makes sense.

But my understanding is we don't actually have to renew it, right?

It's just gonna the employees are counting on this benefit because we right now though it will just continue until June of 2027.

Yes, the current contract ends June of 27.

Yeah.

So we don't have to actually make a decision on it at this time.

Correct.

You could so I'm here following up on that contract, number one, and then giving you options.

If you want to consider the new contract and extend it another year, you could do that, or another two years, you could do that.

If you want to keep it status quo until next year's budget season, you could do that.

If you chose that you didn't want to continue with this benefit as of right now, you you could inform me and I could give NICE Healthcare then the notice of that we're ending that contract.

And what's the notice they need?

Is it is it you'd give them notice that it would end at the end of the contract period, or it would is there like a 30 or 60 days.

30-day window.

Yeah.

So we could go to the end of the contract without any notice.

Or if you wanted to end a mid-year, then I would have to give them 30 days' notice.

But you brought up a good point.

Um or maybe it was Andrew, I can't remember.

Uh that the employees choose their health care and those options in April-Mayish period based on the assumption they have that.

So the best time to bring this back up would be most likely like February.

Yeah.

Right.

Yeah.

Open enrollment uh for administrative reasons, we start that in May.

So that's even before the budget's passed, right?

Right.

So we need a pretty good idea by April, if not sooner next year, whether we want to continue with this or not.

And when do you choose your health care plan, like health insurance and all that?

That's open enrollment.

So employees usually have from about May 15th through the end of May to make the Trevor Burrus.

But I mean, when does the city when does HR or administration choose we are going to be with PHP and all the benefits that come from?

Yeah.

That's also in springtime.

Sorry if I misunderstood your question.

We get a renewal from PHP Marchish.

And then depending on how that looks, we can negotiate, go out to market and have hopefully we have that decision as part of that April time frame as well.

Okay.

And I know we didn't it's it's hard to define it because it's you can't prove a negative.

But do did we ever come closer to the total ROI?

Understanding that if someone uses NICE that we could discount it on PHP.

So do we have a total ROI on if you're not?

So in the memo in that last email that I sent last week or so, um, it was my best estimate.

You there's two main cost savings that that I think we should recognize.

One is the discount from PHP, and that was about a uh eighty-three thousand dollar savings or about a percent on the our premiums.

And then um the the claims that are not hitting our health care plan because they're going to nice health care, that also saves us because it's cost avoidance.

And so that estimated cost.

Um our broker claims it's about 200,000.

Nice health care gave a little bit different number, but um but those two numbers together in that memo in the table show that the total cost savings was well over 275,000 and is costing as 179.

Okay.

And I want to clarify from my perspective of the meeting.

But the claim, that's the claims.

That's not necessarily the cost to the city, because from my understanding, a lot of um it we can't peep the way people's behavior is with when they have free health care and like on the call, whatever, versus they're having to you know make an appointment and go somewhere, it's gonna change.

And versus having to hit their health insurance, right?

So we might not actually have 205,000 is the claim.

It's not necessarily what's going to happen to premiums or things like that.

So the 83,000 is a for sure number.

The other one is very variable.

Yeah.

So any other questions I can answer.

I I have a question.

Um, my position is if our employees, our staff expected this and paid into it.

I think we should honor that and and keep going with it.

But I I was kind of concerned about if do we have does the city have the a policy about using time in working time to do telemed or in office visits, healthcare visits, or is it I I think if they're here they should be working and take PTO or something for even if it's they don't have to go to a doctor's office if they're having it here, that maybe they should I know we don't always clock in and clock out, but you know.

So do we have a policy on that?

Or I mean our sick leave policy can be used for medical services.

So if they're on-site or they go off-site for medical care, then sick leave would be an appropriate use of that if they're an hourly employee.

Yeah.

Yeah.

I would just want to make sure that we're careful about working when it's working.

I appreciate that.

Any thoughts or comments or I just want to point out that in the letter it says this is an alternative to an on-site clinic.

So if you think that it's important to have an on-site clinic and that that's a requirement that city needs to have, take that into consideration.

I feel like because employees counted on this, this is something that we need to provide as some a benefit this year.

But I do not think that is something that is necessary going forward in my opinion.

So I just thought of something else.

Um can we do option two?

Is is is option two revisit this in February, March?

Is that okay?

Is that kind of the consensus of the council to do option two?

I so I have a question that kind of goes with that.

If we um we could redo it for two years, right?

If we leave it status quo, it'll just run out and then we can reevaluate next year.

Is there um a chance that they would raise rates?

Do you have concern about that?

Like, you know, if we don't renew it now for another two years and lock in this a really good rate, could skyrocket or um my conversations with nice healthcare and their executives, they're not looking to raise those rates.

I I can't guarantee what those rates will be next contract period, right?

If we sign the contract today for two years, that would lock in that same rate for two years.

Okay.

So it's a chance, but maybe not likely and might be worth uh not renewing for two years, so we can dig into it a little deeper, I guess.

If you choose to.

Yeah, she said she's not ruining her rates on the Zoom.

So I don't know.

That's what she said.

Yeah.

They have a successful model, they're not looking to raise prices very quickly.

Um I thought it was a good meeting with NICE.

They're expanding.

They're also starting next year offering insurance plans as well in the state of Utah.

So we'll continue to stay apprised of that as well.

Okay.

So um as a council, are we comfortable with not renewing for two years and re-evaluating earlier next year?

Um April, February, April.

Is that I think it's even something to evaluate in February.

Yeah, before final budget.

And all the stuff.

Yeah.

Well before the budget.

So we've got to be.

Well before.

Yeah, that would be my request as part of the budget process because of I mean, benefits is a big spend too, a big ask.

But uh for timing of open enrollment and everything, we we need a little bit more headroom than middle of June.

Okay.

Yeah, for sure.

Okay.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Okay.

Item 3.3 Dry Creek Lake paid parking discussion, Steve.

Is it is it this Saturday?

That it opens?

No.

Do you want it to?

I thought I heard they wanted to enter something.

You can jump over the fence.

Um, but yes, we are so close to opening this, it's not funny.

Uh that is a great question on when do we want to open this?

Uh currently right now that page I don't know if you guys can see it better than that, but it's really, really nice and pretty in green, and it has a great big island right out in the center of it, and there's not a lot of water in it.

Um all of that being said, we are to the point where we're getting really, really close.

Uh we're waiting on signage.

We've got that ordered, and I believe it comes the end of the month.

As soon as that signage is op or ready, uh installed, we're ready.

Um everything's operational and uh but what brings us here tonight is we we talked previously about charging for parking for this.

Um the primary function, of course, I was asked by our water department to put this in here, so here it is.

Uh debris, sediment basin, and flood management.

Um above and beyond that, we get to use it as a uh recreation facility.

Anything that we use as or anything that we have installed with the recreation facility, we have to maintain as recreation facility.

Um Sean has done a fantastic job organizing meetings with other entities that are involved with this, making sure that everybody knows that we're getting close and it's gonna happen.

Um that being said, it's to the point now where we want to decide um do we want to put parking or do we want to charge for parking?

And the issues that we have with it.

Excuse me, sorry.

Um so the challenges, of course, you know, we've gone out to different different surrounding reservoirs, Springville, Harriman, Spanish Fork.

Um the high volume of visitors on weekends is really the biggest issue.

And then making sure that the visitors that you have there are the visitors that you want there is another issue.

So you don't want people up there just causing issues um having at a place because they can go there and do whatever they would like to do.

We wanted a nice recreation facility for all and to be able to keep it that way.

Um Springville is a great example with Bartholomew Pond.

Bartholomew Pond gets overran uh to the point where it was overcrowding all of the surface streets leading up into it, around it, through it, um, and creating havoc throughout all everything that they did.

So what we've learned from them is if we're going to charge for parking, we need to do it up front.

And the tool that they use for it is they started out lower and then they raised their prices to the point where they got the people there that they wanted, or the the amount of people that they were comfortable with.

So we're talking about a destination or a regional facility.

This is our operating amount of visits that we had to Family Park in the month of June.

So we had roughly 47,000 people that had a cell phone signal at Family Park in June.

These are real numbers.

We got a software that we can track this, we know what it is.

So you think about that.

Go to our ponds now.

Let's just talk about Tibble Fork Dry Creek, Harriman, Highland Glen, and Manila Pond.

So roughly all of those, the average is about 27,000 visitors to each one of those ponds in a month.

So if we take that down, we break it down a little bit more.

These are per this is per month.

So the the average for Springville is 19, average for Harriman's 12, Highland Glen's 32.

Tibble Fork is 32-ish.

We are bigger than Tibble Fork.

We are, but we do have our challenges.

We don't, we're not up in the mountains.

It's not going to be a nice, cozy uh shaded area.

This is strictly a beach area.

Not only that, it's got a hillside.

So the reason I'm showing you all of this is we needed to try and find an average of where we think we're going to be on our visitors.

So the benefit to coming to Dry Creek Lake is it's close.

Instead of going all the way up to Tibble Fork, it's there.

You don't have to go.

Temple Fork, they still charge for parking if you park anywhere up the canyon, but you can drive through for free.

Unless you're like some people I know and just go park up there and hope for the best.

So addressing the concerns, like I said, rather than waiting to say, okay, yeah, we want to impose parking because we're getting overran.

Um we don't the only places that we can really get overran is the main road coming into it and Smith's parking lot.

But then we have neighboring communities, Highland, that has neighborhoods backing up into it.

And in the development and design of all of this, um, we had great length discussions with them saying, you know, we understand you may XYZ we put up a fence in between to be able to help sustain some of that.

But anyway that there's a where where there's a will, there's a way.

If people are going to park up there, they're going to get down there.

And so what why we feel like we wanted to bring this up to you is so that we don't get into those situations, so that we can have the mechanism in place to start helping cope with the problem.

Um so we we've talked to a few different parking entities.

There's one in the state that stands out the most that has done this for is it just which which both Harriman and Bartholomew Pond, the same parking entity is used for them.

They're the ones that we felt is the best for the situation that we're doing.

We haven't really started any contract or anything like that, just kind of really starting high level, see what they would like or how it would work.

So it's a 70-30 split, so that they would patrol, they would monitor anything inside of the parking lot them itself is under their insurance.

So if there's an accident, it goes through them.

If there's things like that, it goes through that entity.

Um it's cashless, it's a QR code.

They put up there in charge of all of their signs to install them, keep them up to date, make sure everything's good that way.

It's a 24-hour surveillance, they'll drive through at certain times every day, just making rounds all the way through, making sure people are doing what they're supposed to be doing in there as far as parking goes, not necessarily monitoring the site, just the parking.

Um they suggested that we put the fee at $20 a car.

I think that's way extreme.

Um I don't I don't agree with that.

I think that if we do this, we should start closer to the $5 range to $10 range, uh, just where we would actually have room to grow, see if it's actually going to be used, whatever we need to do that way.

So everything from here on out, you'll see that we we did this off of a $10 fee.

So Springville, just on Saturdays.

So the month of June on Saturdays, they have 306 cars a day there.

This is just off the five months that we feel like this is actually going to be utilized heavily, that we would we would have the parking enforced up there.

And so after you go through it, if you say there's four people going there in a car per day, they're charging $15 a car.

That's $1,225 visitors a day.

To the city, that's $3,215.

The parking service gets $1,317.

In a month with the city's reimbursement would be $96,000.

And in the five-month season, it's almost $500,000.

That's that Springville City is, and this is our estimate, don't get me wrong.

This is we took the AI tool that we have that tracks how many people are there.

We didn't call and get their records.

This is just our best, you know.

If we said four people in a car, so this is a lot of us, our information putting it in there.

So this is not strictly exactly what they're doing by any means.

This is our best guess.

So if we bring that into us, we would say we're estimating about 27,000 people.

So we're a little lower than what Highland Glenn and Tibble Fork are, but we're right in the same realm.

We're about 5,000 people less a month, is what we're estimating.

30 days in a month, four people per car, ten dollar fee, um 215 cars a day.

We have a 200-car parking lot up there as part of the agreement.

Uh in a day, that'd be $2,000, $2,250.

The city's portion would be $1,575.

The parking service would get $675 of that to a grand total of that five-month season of $236,000 to be able to help with the maintenance cost person, however, we do that.

So that's the highlights.

If we want to do it for the full 12 months, we can do it for a full 12 months.

If we want to do it, however the restraint is that we would like, or that we would like to be able to do.

You know what I mean?

It's not just show up because it's well, you can.

It's a destination at that point instead of just a place to be and an event that's an easy free thing.

Um part of the issue that we have looked at though is in our agreements, we do have to provide free access and free fishing through the different partners.

Um how this works is they the site itself is free.

So if they want to go drop somebody off, it's absolutely free, they can do it.

Uh and but to park in the facility, it would cost the amount.

And so uh we've worked with both of or the two people that we have contracts with, and both of them are under the agreement that it's fine to be able to do this.

So liability concerns.

So uh Scott's out of town.

Um do you want to talk about this, or do you want me to just kind of reverberate and you can correct me if I'm wrong?

Oh, yeah, I can talk about it.

Okay.

I'm the killjoy guy tonight on this one.

But there's an act out there called the landowner's liability act.

So if either a private or a government entity makes their land open to the public but does not charge a fee, then there's a pretty high level of liability protection for that.

The city basically doesn't have a duty of care that has to do with proving a claim of negligence to keep the land safe or to warn people of a dangerous condition, that kind of thing.

So it's kind of like the Cadillac version of limited liability.

Now if we charge, then that goes away, but it doesn't mean that we're still subject to any and all claims.

So even if we don't have limited liability under the landowner's liability act, we still have governmental immunity.

So that basically comes down to whether the government or the what the government is involved in is considered a governmental function or a proprietary function by the courts.

That's been a long-standing kind of historical distinction between whether we have the protections of the governmental immunity act or we don't.

Well, what a court looks to when they're trying to distinguish between those two is basically is this something that the private sector are we competing with the private sector?

Are we getting, you know, are we making a profit or we're getting some special economic benefit or pecuniary benefit in engaging this in this?

So you know, let's say like a swimming pool.

Well, that you know, I guess that's maybe not the best because there aren't a lot of private swimming pools, a rec center, a golf course, you know, if the city wanted to have a bowling alley or something like that.

Those are all more traditionally served by the private sector, and so that's more likely for a court to look at that and say, well, that's not a pure, that's not a traditional governmental function.

That's a proprietary function.

So we're not going to give you liability protections under the Utah Governmental Immunity Act.

For this kind of a um a function, it seems pretty solid that the courts would find that this is a governmental function.

So we'd still have the protections of the Utah Governmental Immunity Act.

Even if we didn't, which again I don't think is likely, a plaintiff still has to prove the elements of negligence, right?

It doesn't mean if we don't have the landowner's liability act protections, we don't have the governmental immunity act protections, that we're just going to have to start writing checks.

Um an injured plaintiff would still have to prove the elements of a claim of negligence, that we failed somehow in our duty to keep the premises safe or to warn of a dangerous condition, and that that was the negligence doctrine is called causation, right?

That our failure to do that was the actual cause of the injury that's been suffered by a plaintiff.

So that's a I mean that's a factor to consider.

You know, do you want the Cadillac version, the Toyota Camry version, the no version, I guess, uh you know, of just being being relegated to defending a negligence claim, which we do a lot in other situations.

So by charging, we do kind of give up the Cadillac version of limited liability.

So that's a factor to consider in in the way that we operate this facility.

Um so I guess at that point, is there any questions that we can answer?

And kind of what I'm looking for is kind of a head nod just to do you want me to pursue this?

Do you want to back out?

I'm happy to do whatever it looks like.

Well, no, I guess let me add, if if that's the direction of the council, I I would contact Springville City.

I have a good relationship with the.

We have a lot of work to start.

Yeah, find out what went into their decision.

Was it more than, you know, obviously they did must have done a balancing and thought, hey, the capacity of this thing is just overwhelming us, so we better charge.

Did they consider giving up the protections under the landowner liability act?

Just see how uh not that we have to do the same thing, but at least see what went into their analysis of charging for parking.

So sorry, I I want to add a little context also for new council members.

We've had this discussion, like when we first talked about improving improvements here, and I may be wrong, but we talked about the cost of toilet paper just because of all the visitors, right?

Well, that's why I put honestly that's really why I put the frequency of people going there.

Yeah.

I mean, you get 40, um, the legacy center, I think I send it, I send it today, and I think it was 39,000 people open the door every day.

So if the same person goes in four times, that's four times.

It's like 39,000 visitors.

We're talking about the amount of people that we're that we have at our recenter going up to this facility to a four four-stall restroom.

So, yeah, so the I guess my point was that it's two four-stall restrooms, excuse me.

Eight eight stalls.

It's more than just maintaining the number of people who go there, but it's all there's cost involved, right?

And replenishing the supplies in the restrooms and the maintenance costs and the park staff and stuff.

So it's again, I guess with the piano, I'd like to try to recoup our costs as best we can.

So my question, I guess, for Ryan then is if you talked about more liability as you earn a profit.

So if we put the money back into just maintaining the park or the supplies, is that considered a profit?

Yeah, then no, we should be fine if we're just covering our costs.

And it doesn't have to be dollar for dollar, right?

But if yeah, if if the majority, I don't know what percentage, but if most of the money is just going to operate the facility going back into its operation, we we'd be okay.

And really what we're thinking on that is we're probably gonna have similar staffing to what we do at Family Park and have seasonals up there, not you know, keeping it all weekend long operational and safe, clean.

The presence helps out so much that it's yeah, at least for the four or five months in the year that it's heavily used.

Other than that, of course, we'll just check on it.

Okay.

I'm sorry, I just wanted to make that clear because I know thank you.

Thank you.

That's great.

Gotcha heartburn on the toilet paper will go through there.

But any um questions or comments from the council.

Yeah, question.

Um how many stalls does Springville have?

We have 200, you said.

How does that compare to what they have?

It's actually in here, I believe.

Is it No, it's not in here.

It's not in here, but it's not as big as it's not even close to our own.

Okay, so this is a this is a good number stack.

Yeah, but we have a lot bigger, but daybreaks is bigger than ours as well, and they still be the same.

And about 160 stalls.

160 stalls.

Okay.

So 40, 40 more than or less than what we do, but still they're dramatically smaller than we are as well, if we have water in it.

I think part of that price point, I I think you're right in having a having the price, keeping it low enough, because I think if you're getting up closer to that 15, I'd park at Smiths.

I'll take a couple minutes to walk down.

So it's gotta be enough that it's means it's convenient enough that I'm like, yeah, I'll I'll and part of that, and I don't mean this router, but I don't want the 16-year-old kids up there unsupervised doing whatever they would like to do up there.

Yeah.

That's that's the price point.

We ought to make it so that they're not gonna they're not gonna be there, but the families are still very welcome.

And you know what I mean.

I don't that that's really the hard part is is we need to control the people that we have visiting somehow.

And this is realistically the only way that we can with the avenues that we've been given.

So I'm gonna share a little information, then I'll give my perspective.

Um so Timble is six dollars for the day to go up to the canyon.

Um or an American Beautiful Pass, right?

Highland Glen's free.

Um it looks like Springville gives one free parking pass per resident.

Um for the year they can pick up at Springville City Hall.

Um it looks like the Harriman Place Black Ridge Reservoir, it's parking is free Monday through Friday.

And it's $15 per vehicle on Saturdays, Sundays, and designated holidays.

Um typically looks like Springville and them, they only look and monitor parking about May through October, so it's not all year round.

Um I don't know.

Like just looking at that and looking at what we're comparing, because that's what we are doing to try to come to this.

Um I would be I think that five dollars is kind of more price point for what we have.

Springville has a snack sack, multiple pavilions.

I would like to walk um Dry Creek reservoir because I haven't.

I drive past it every single day and look at it from far.

But I haven't been on site myself.

So I just think with what we have and see with to the point of starting low, that seems much more reasonable when you can pay $6 to go up to American Four Canyon, you can go to Highland for free.

I think there is something to be said about we need to, you know, there's it's gonna go into maintenance.

We're gonna probably need additional staffing, we're gonna need some supplies, things like that, and hopefully some improvements in the future.

But um I think having to pay even $5 might deter some people that you're talking about.

So honestly, it was a five dollars, ten dollars looks a lot better on paper.

Just looking at all the things.

I agree.

I that doesn't hurt my feelings even to the smallest because it gives us more room if we need to do something we also can.

And hopefully it's not that we have to.

Hopefully that is what it is, and we enjoy what it is for that.

But well, and it is interesting to see that Springville gives one free pass per resident or per household.

And honestly, we would love to try and be able to do something like that, but our agreements when we got the grant from the county said that it's a county facility at that point, and everybody in the entire county has to be treat the same, even though we're taking the burden of the maintenance on it.

So that's that's why we can't.

There's no way to discount for residents.

We have to treat them all the same in the county.

So well, I think it's actually we have to treat them all the same, not even in the county.

I think it's just you know the it's the tax and tourism grant that we got it from, and so anybody that visits the site is the same thing.

So is that I mean we're charging for parking, but so in that agreement with the county, is it that anybody can use it for free or that we just have to do that?

We treat them all equal.

That we treat them all equal.

So it's that's that's the sticking point is I'd love to open this up to our residents for free.

Lehi, you're taking the the burden of the maintenance on it, it's yours.

Go use it.

Um we can't and charge someone else.

And then the hard part with that is you know, if if our residents do have to we have to use tax dollars to help pay for this, we have Highland just up the hill and there's a parking spot there and a nice trail to walk down.

I'm like, they're just gonna park there and and fall up, but hard.

Frankly, we're in conversations with Highland.

We know they know that we're getting close to open it.

And if they um they had not heard about charging for parking uh at their Highland Glen, and see what they do.

They know now.

So well, it's a nice gift to Highland.

I hope they appreciate it.

Yeah.

So not that we don't want them there.

No, no, no, no, no, no.

And I've been there, it's beautiful park.

Okay, what about I don't know if anybody would ever do this, but can you take donations, like part of your QR code can say hey?

Um I don't think that we'd want to do it through the same QR code because then that's gonna give the parking entity 30 percent.

Oh so if they want to do donations, they should be coming to us directly.

And I mean, if we want to go down that road.

The problem with it is we've we've tried donations in several different places.

We tried a dog park donation and got a couple hundred dollars that's had there for a really long time and it's really hard for our finance to account for and figure out and do.

So yeah.

Can I ask a question?

So with the contract with the um parking service, there's no flat fee, like a monthly like five thousand dollars or you know, anything like that.

Okay, so it's just a user-based business model where if we had no one parking there, there's no penalty to Lehigh to pay or anything like that.

Right.

But I will say the higher the amount that they're gonna get, the more they're gonna monitor.

So I mean I I if I ran the business, you know, and somebody was giving me a rundle, I'd be making sure that they were taken care of more.

Okay.

Um and then do we anticipate that this year due to the drought and the water levels that we're gonna have a high participation or is that more honestly uh uh I'm very hesitant to even open it this year.

I mean it's gross.

It it really is.

I don't know how else to put it.

Um it's gonna be ready.

There's so many people excited.

We get comments about it constantly.

Yeah.

And and maybe what we do is we open it up just for walking.

Because there's not gonna be fish in there, there's not gonna be anything in there.

But the minute that we open it, that's setting our standard.

Yeah.

And and that's really the hard part is uh if we're gonna do it, we should do it when we open, not come back and try and retrofit because I don't want to set that standard.

Yeah.

That's why we're here tonight, realistically.

Yeah, I understood.

And then I'm wondering, is it like a um demand model where if it increases demand over the weekends or a certain I don't know, peak days, like we could raise parking like it is there an active demand model within the parking lot.

Honestly, I think they'll do whatever we would like them to do.

However, we structure it, we can they're very willing to work with us on how if we want to say a dollar on the weeks or free on the weekdays, and then we charge on weekends, I'm sure that they'd be open to it.

I I mean we'd have to con we'd have to have the conversations.

But I'm I'm pretty positive that they're they're willing to do what we need them to do.

Okay, awesome.

Thank you.

You talked to them, is that right?

Okay.

So I'll be back to approve fees.

I'm I'm okay with five.

I really am.

That sounds good.

I mean, I can see it from the road.

I can't haven't been there, but I think it's worth five dollars.

Uh I'm I'm not disagreeing.

Like I said, I don't think that I want to open it really this season, but we're we probably should.

We've got a lot of demand.

So I I do like the peak hours, holidays, weekends model, but I don't I really don't want anything to go above ten dollars per car.

And there may even be times like where the traffic's low and we can say it's a free day at the reservoir or something like that.

I am I'm just gonna remind you that Sky Ridge is very close by.

And they are at lunchtime and right after school.

I mean, it's like a like they're everywhere.

Like I have a kid at Sky Rage, I love the sky kids, but they go everywhere in that area.

So I've had more vandalism at Ivory Ridge than I have a day.

Yeah.

So that's a good point, though.

I mean, it's that's what this is for is to try and help keep the people that we don't want the that's such a hard thing to describe.

I mean, we want everybody to come, but we want them to be monitored and we want them to treat the site with respect.

And if they're willing to put the the money towards it, they're gonna hopefully respect it, right?

That that's really what I'm trying to illustrate here.

It's not that we don't want anybody there.

We want them all there.

We want them to respect the site when they're there.

Tell me what the monitoring looks like because that's they drive through and look for look at license plate numbers and say, okay, yep, you're good.

So they don't do like, oh, those kids are starting to fire.

I'm hoping that I'm really hoping that if they see activity like that, they would notify us.

I don't know if they will or not.

Because in my mind, that's worth charging for and giving them the 30% more than just yes and no, really, because they're gonna they'll I think they tow the vehicles if they don't haven't parked or paid.

So I mean that's what we're paying for is the enforcement of the parking.

That's what high that's what Bartholomew did to be able to get to the point where they weren't getting vandalized constantly, constantly, constantly, and help with the reduction of the use.

But maybe just somebody going through well, and that's really what I think that's money should go towards is our staff, a seasonal staff member up there, at least during daylight hours.

And and keeping eye.

Keeping it clean.

Uh monitoring comes second, but keeping the site clean comes first.

And the presence shows huge.

I mean, it's huge.

If you have somebody there, they see somebody there, and the person is actually willing to go up and vocalize.

Hey, you do you mind picking up the garbage or you mind, you know, there's this here.

It shows it it pays off dividends.

And there's no gate, right?

There's no toll gate.

It's just all QR code.

So it's all toll, uh it's all QR code.

There are gates.

Um the city the city gates are there.

Well, they're not the city gates, they're the the dam company's gates.

And so the city really wants very little to do with the gates unless there's an emergency.

Um we will have locks on them, but we plan on not operating them at all.

But it's just like paid parking in a city, right?

So you go in when those gates are open and it's accessible, you go in.

It's very obvious you see the QR code you pay.

And it's a similar idea where it's just from daylight like sunrise to it's our park hours.

Yep.

Yep.

Yep.

Any other questions or comments?

Mayor Pro Tim.

Yes.

I do have one comment and a question.

Um an engineering standpoint is um currently the roadway out in front between the park and um Smith's is striped just with a roadway shoulder.

So, you know, cars that feel like they don't want to pay could technically park there.

However, one of the concerns that we do have is the future master plan cross-section for this roadway is to have bike lanes.

And so we are concerned about how whatever whatever parking may happen, or we may, whatever decision we may make that we need to be able to be prepared to know that if everyone just moves to parking along the street at some point in time, at least the current master plan shows that we will be striping that road for bike lanes, which would take away that parking.

So anyways, that's just one concern that we do have.

Could we make it no parking at this point or credit the signs?

And would you there are a lot of homes, there are homes that are being built there too, and and private residences, and it's like it's like curvy.

So there's a lot of like I don't envision, I mean I would see teenagers parking there, but a normal person.

I should say a person who has more experience and doesn't want to get sideswiped or park in someone's personal personal area, but probably not.

Look, I'm the only one that's supposed to say stuff like that.

But that raises a point.

Do we want cars parked there?

Because you know that we will get cars parked.

Yeah, I think that's the concern that we have is that uh right now there's not as much need to park there.

You know, that I think measure that they used to help get rid of that.

They were getting inundated in every surface street because it wasn't charged.

As soon as they started charging and raising that rate to the point that it is now is how they controlled that.

Um because they knew it was a destination, we're going there for this.

And basically, I don't know how else to say it other than excluded the people that were just there on a whim.

And so if you're not there on a whim, you're not gonna pay the fee to go in.

But don't you think charging at the base by the same thing?

I do, but that gives us the room to grow to wherever we need to be to help you talk to sustain and fight that issue.

I think it's also something to talk to a traffic engineer about with that street, honestly.

And we've had I don't know how many hundreds of complaints about speeding on that road for the last 10 years.

True.

And we're we're in the middle of doing our transportation master plan.

So maybe it's a time as we do that to determine whether the design that we currently have on 3200 north is correct, um, showing you know bike lanes being striped in the future there.

Well, and you can there is bike lane or bikes throughout everywhere else right there.

It's like a spaghetti bowl of bike access.

So I mean if we took it off the road, it might not be the worst thing in the world.

The Murdoch Canal, true.

Yeah.

I would just say one for ADA parking.

Is there a way to exempt them from paying fee?

Because it applies to it.

I doubt that it will exempt them.

I mean realistically, just where they are disabled doesn't mean that they're not using the facility.

Well, I mean, using like you said, using the facility, there's no charge, right?

You can walk into it right time, use it.

It's just the parking aspect.

So I don't what I don't want to do is let me see what other entities have done on that and see if they've uh if there's a case for that.

I think if within the contract that we have with um I think if it's if it's allowed, then yeah, I would say.

Well, uh I'm gonna use I'm gonna use my father as uh as an example here.

He has an ADA pass and he's very careful in walking.

Um just because his knee hurts sometimes.

So I I don't want to, you know what I mean?

Well, somebody that actually necessarily needs it.

I understand them being for free.

The ones that don't necessarily need it and they're gonna gather 15 kids in the car because they have free parking.

That's that's a different situation.

And so I don't know how you would distinguish that necessarily.

But let me see if there's a case anywhere else in any of these other.

I think it's a small percentage enough that we're not gonna be able to do it.

It is very I think if if you do have ADA um permits, then I just wouldn't want to prohibit you know grandma and grandpa from being able to do that.

I I I agree with that.

Yeah.

I I am worried about the slope on the sand as well for that.

Um because honestly, to get down to the waterfront, you're hiking.

So is it'll be a nice view that to get down into the water is gonna be challenging.

So Ryan, I have a uh question for you.

I might be stretching this, but since we're only charging for parking, does our liability only cover the parking lot?

Yeah, I mean it says to charge to use the facility.

So I mean you could make the argument that technically they're just we're just charging for parking, but that's considered it's broad enough to consider access to the facility.

So it doesn't really make a difference.

That I try.

But you said that if we're covering our just covering our costs, it's almost negligible, which if we're if you cut the price, it costs let's say it's five dollars, it'd be 100 and something thousand dollars, which probably would be pretty quick with staffing and toilet paper.

Yeah.

So I think you know, we could there's lots we could do on the on the back end financially if we if we did make more than we thought we could put it in a fund to fund next year's operations and then reduce the fee or something like that.

We we'd make sure that we stayed within that limit so that we didn't lose the liability protection.

Okay.

So what I'm hearing from the council tell me if I'm on the right track is that yes, pursue this and look at keeping uh the fee lower to five dollars and to cover our costs so that you know limit our liability.

Okay.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you.

Okay, 3.4.

Um this will be a good one, Brad.

We're looking forward to it.

North um Northwest Lehigh Transportation Options discussion.

Thank you, Mayor Pro Tem and Council members.

See if I can get connected here.

Is there anything I need to do, Tisha to connect?

Oh, there we go, we're on.

Is that a rifle?

What was that?

Are you holding a rifle?

Uh uh yeah, during an elk hunt we were on.

With bikes.

It's great.

Uh is that okay?

Oh, that's awesome.

I just haven't seen bikes and camo and rifle missing photo.

No, we used the bikes to get to our location and then walk in.

So anyway, thank you for your time uh today.

Uh let me just kind of jump right into things.

So this is just uh again, just a work session item, just a discussion on some options that we've been looking at uh for some northwest transportation options here in Lehigh.

Um as shown in your packet.

The uh this is a this is a um screenshot of our current transportation master plan in the northwest section of Lehigh.

And you'll notice that in particular, what I would like to talk about today is this area that's highlighted in yellow, um, which is the future Mountain View Corridor connector freeway, so it's a freeway to connection from the Mountain View Corridor to I-15.

Um this uh this project's been on our master plan for many years.

Um however, a few years ago, UDOT did a study on what this transportation corridor would cost to a cost of roughly three to three and a half billion dollars.

Just to give you an idea, that type of um budgeting is that's pretty much what UDOT's budget is statewide um for one year, right?

Operating construction and everything.

So when we propose this to UDOT, uh they were estimating about a billion and a half of that to be to build the actual roadway, and another billion and a half to build what they call a collector distributor system, which is the type of free uh dual freeway system that we have northbound I-15 starting at about 90th south when you want to get onto I-215.

If you remember there's kind of a parallel uh freeway system.

So they were basically saying another billion and a half to build essentially a secondary freeway to handle all the traffic.

If I go to the next slide, you know, to handle that 91,000 cars a day, that would be uh conveyed through that area.

So a few things that we've we did when we when we proposed this, um we were excited about it because essentially it would take um traffic from the Eagle Mountain Saratoga area and kind of bypass Lehigh, right?

Um they're going out and around us on freeway systems, which is if they're not going to shop in Lehigh, we we would like them to just bypass, right?

So anyways, after hearing those those types of funding numbers from UDOT, we started looking at some other options.

Um, let me just go back one two more slides.

Uh I forgot to point out that notice on this um transportation master plan, we show a future interchange right here.

This is up by Trans West, or where Transwest was.

Um this corridor was also studied as part of the station area plan that was done in this area, and they showed that this inner that this interchange would tie into Traverse Mountain Boulevard.

It's probably shown a little bit further south than where it would be placed.

But anyway, just keep in mind that future interchange as we move forward.

So the the one of the options that we we're just calling option one right now would be instead of running freeway to freeway between the Mountain View Corridor, we would run between that new future interchange that I just pointed out and Redwood Road.

Keeping in mind that when the Mountain View Corridor um gets fully loaded, and it has taken a lot of traffic off of Redwood Road, that Redwood Road, that the redwood road volumes uh reduce significantly.

So in essence, uh to our modelers and we've had to have we've had to send out of state for these models.

Most of our modelers here in town don't don't do this kind of work.

It's very significant regional transportation.

So that's part of the reason it's taken us a while to get these to you.

Um but um we want to look at this option, option one.

Basically, we would run from the new future interchange to Redwood Road.

And one of the things we wanted to point out, one of the things we're looking at is two points.

First of all, notice that we've removed Clubhouse Drive from the equation.

Um seeing the difficulty of punching through Clubhouse Drive with the residents and whatnot, we've chosen to pull this out as part of all these models.

And so what what we're looking at is we're wanting to get this part of what we're looking at is the val the volumes on Triumph Boulevard.

What does it take to get those down?

Um as you know, and as you've been involved with uh Thanksgiving Point Area Plan, we talk about the transportation corridors and the impacts there.

Um we want to know what would it take to get those numbers down.

Currently, without any options, it's looking like Triumph Boulevard runs at about 55,000 cars a day, which is really the the extent of what maybe a six or seven lane facility could could handle.

So this was option one.

Um another option that we had was um to run that same type of a connection from Redwood Road over to that new future interchange, but to run it along the east side of Camp Williams instead of the north side of Camp Williams.

Uh notice it does pick up more, you know, does generate some more volume.

Our expectation is it might draw as much as 42,000 cars a day, and that number would drop down uh the further south we get, you know, to where it's down to 25,000 cars a day on 2700 north.

Um and what it does to Triumph Boulevard is it drops that volume down to about the 47,000 cars a day range.

Um we've been wanting to bring this to you as a council um for quite some time, but in waiting for the models, and also we felt like before we did we needed to talk to Camp Williams.

We needed to find out what if either of these options were supported by them, and and we just heard back from them uh last Monday.

So therefore I quickly put it on the agenda for you to review.

And um the results from what Camp Williams come to came to us with their strong um their strong opinion is that they much prefer option two versus versus option one.

They didn't really elaborate as to why one option was better than another, but they did indicate that their preferred option was option two.

So this option versus running the roadway along the north side of Camp Williams.

Um just for your information, uh one action that we believe that Camp Williams will take in the next year or two is they're moving their um main entrance to Camp Williams off of Redwood Road down to uh location off of 2700 north.

They've been to us already, shown us their plans, they'll be making some significant improvements right here for the safety and monitoring of traffic going in, but that is one um change that they are looking to make.

They didn't indicate either way whether they felt like future their existing roadways would tie on to that option two.

They didn't they were silent on that, but simply indicated that they were um in support of option two versus option one.

Um this next slide just indicates that.

Um I'm just curious if you have if the council has any questions related to this information.

Um anything that I can weigh in on just to clarify, these projected numbers are with 2100 north being fully built out, right?

Correct.

And so and Mountain View Corridor being fully built out.

So this wouldn't be day one.

Yeah, these are these are intended to be full build-out numbers with um uh 2100, I'm sorry, with uh yeah, 2100 North Freeway as a six-lane full build out of Mountain View Corridor.

And the um 2,000 units in Thanksgiving Point are calculated in the middle of the year.

Yes, they are.

Okay.

Question Mayor program.

Um do you I should have asked you this earlier.

Do you have the a slide that shows the volume on these roads if we don't build either option?

And that is one thing that I am uh that I'm still looking forward to find those numbers because the free refer has been in in our model for so long.

We have to go dig way back and find out what the for example what the clubhouse drive um volumes were before the freeway to freeway or what the Triumph numbers are.

So I I don't have those.

However, I can tell you that ten years back when when we went to MAG and and were seeking the money for Clubhouse Drive, um, we were then looking to build it as a two-lane with the expansion to four-lane in the future.

Off of my memory, I think it was right up to its capacity of a four-lane road.

So that would be roughly 30 to 35,000 cars a day along Clubhouse Drive.

I just can't confirm those exactly.

But um And kind of I'm curious like how they get dispersed.

If we don't have that option, how does it impact all these other roads?

Like is it?

Yeah, I mean, I do have the we do have the numbers, the pre-construction and post-construction numbers for each of these options.

Um but just not the clubhouse, not with Clubhouse Drive and you know, not without any build.

Yeah.

Right.

Generally our no-build scenario included the freeway to freeway, so that's the challenge here.

Right.

I'll just I'll just say I love that the Clubhouse Drive extension over the golf course was removed just because I think that would have especially with the HTRZ coming up, I think that would have just made traffic that much worse um right there between the golf course and I-15.

Uh I like option two simply because instead of the Clubhouse Drive extension that would have fed directly into the heart of Holbrook Mars.

And right next to a school, the skirts on the exterior of Holbrook.

Um I I do like that.

And I don't know.

Uh Emily's our Yeah, council member, the dotted line, that black dotted line would connect into 3600 West, which would take it right next to the school.

So that that's the that's the maybe.

Which dotted line?

So the the black.

Yeah, yeah.

That that'll go off the yellow and take 8,000 cars in next to the elementary school.

Okay.

So you're talking yeah, the the planned.

So maybe we could if that's still on the table at some point we can.

It's really if that road we were stubbed across our modeler, we asked them to, you know, because we knew that we had some connections, right?

There's already a roadway in this area that connects between 3600 and this roadway.

So we asked them to estimate how much connectivity, you know, how much connectivity volume they would pull over.

And so whether that's exactly 8,000 cars a day on this one or whether it's split between this road and down here, I'm not sure.

Yeah.

Nor would I know whether this road would even be stubbed across.

That gray section between like the yellow, the black dotted line, and that solid black line, that's all homes.

So I worry if we if we do some connections, those are you know 25 mile an hour with kids on bikes.

So it it it option two gives me a lot of concern.

Um and I don't love that Camp Williams is moving their entrance.

Um that also is gonna give a lot of concern to Holebrook, but I can't control the federal government.

So anyway, but but there are yeah, there are pros and cons to both options.

I think I think the pro with this, if they are if they're moving their entrance to the south end, if if there is no extension on that yellow dotted line, then I could see traffic filtering through Holebrook more coming from the southeast to like Camp Williams traffic specifically, versus if if you're commuting from the north to Camp Williams, taking this connector kind of keeps you away from the middle of the neighborhoods.

Um and I think for Holbrook commuters going north, this probably shaves off, I don't know, Emily, if you were it probably shaves off at least 10 minutes of commuter time versus going to 2100 or looping around on Triumph.

So Rockwell.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I kind of becomes whatever Camp Williams likes, is what we say.

Yeah, that's great, because I think that they're gonna be such a roadblock to anything going through.

I do this does kind of change things where it does facilitate more traffic that is not Lehigh getting around Lehigh.

Um I think like with the the other offshoot dotted line, that's going to serve Holbrook.

Those those cars are going to be there one way or another.

So it's like to be able to find ways to help facilitate them out easier, because otherwise they they have to go somewhere.

It's like we did those all those trips have to go on some kind of road.

So I I do agree with Emily that we need to be careful, but at least it seems like this wouldn't be as much cut through from other cities.

It would be their own neighborhood that would need to use that access.

If I can add anyone who accesses their home from 3600 West will be taking that dotted line.

So they would they would like Hold Spring Ranch, even down into where James is at.

They'll they'll pop off the dotted line and come through Holbrook on 3600 West, because that's a five-lane arterial.

I I think and this is where we probably just need to spend more time.

Is these are neighborhoods?

Like the the houses come up onto these roads where kids on bikes and things.

So I I think we just need to explore what that looks like and not build something that would just be very, very thoughtful, right?

Because these all these neighbors in here are expecting their kids to be able to ride bikes.

I don't want to put a five lane through that.

Anyway, I I think there just needs to be more uh Yeah, these are obviously um discussions that are super high level, you know, as far as the 30,000 foot level where we just we're just looking at regional traffic solutions.

If you go to option one, if you go back one side.

Or you go.

I think I mean this obviously it doesn't touch Holebrook.

Um but it also you know it benefits Saratoga and Eagle Mountain commuters a lot more, I think.

And and that's a good thing in the sense that they're not they're not going through Lehigh as much.

Um but I just you know I'd wonder if option two might benefit Holbrook commuters more.

Just because you know, you look at the dotted line um the connector road.

If if you look at the existing road, the solid black line of 3600 west, all the traffic's on that road essentially right now, right?

So if we added that connector road to the yellow proposed road, it would it would kind of relieve a lot of the traffic closer to 2100 is my guess as an expert commuter.

But that's what it's yeah.

The position of Holbrook is like we don't like the connection points in is gonna draw in all that traffic.

That relief it's giving the domino effect relief outward brings it all into us.

Um but the and I will say at the same time, there's you know, obviously multiple perspectives within the neighborhood.

There are neighbors who want an additional exit.

So yeah, it I think we can all maybe we can organize a neighborhood meeting out there.

I'm happy to host it in my home and have one or I guess it would have to only be one of you at a time, but we can meet with the neighbors and talk about it.

You know, what one additional positive to probably option two versus option one is that if you look at the uh Thanksgiving point gardens, you know, they have this single almost like a big long cold de sac going down in the gardens.

Um this option too could possibly assist them if they chose to put stuff across a river and tie in right here.

That could be a potential benefit for this option too, also.

Um it wouldn't be nearly as easy to for them to tie in and go further north to the option one.

But obviously we're just I'm just trying to point out as many of these options as I can.

Hey Broad, one question.

I know we've talked about this earlier with um with imagery, but would it be possible for this road to be parallel to the the north the north-south road?

In other words, the the existing north-south road.

Which which road is that?

It's 270.

Oh, 2700.

To the aerial image?

Yeah.

So if if the proposed road came down on the west side of 2700 west and 2700 just stayed like an internal community, almost like a frontage road.

I mean, we wouldn't be able to connect the the connector road to the yellow line, but it could connect still to the frontage road.

And I think I don't know, maybe that would you'd have less signals.

You wouldn't you wouldn't have cars just going into the neighborhoods, just something to consider just off the top of my hand.

Maybe I could just go back to the aerial image.

I don't think I shared that yet.

Correct.

But I do have it.

There we go.

Let me just go to this really quickly we do have we currently do have roadways that tie oh sorry I was overlooking at Dry Creek.

So we are right here.

So it essentially kind of go into where the current driving course currently this roadway does connect between 3600 and this future roadway that we're talking about I think the the roadway that's shown on the model is this future roadway right here.

I think there's a concern that this would swing around and tie in directly up here.

That they are very concerned about whether we would ever be able to punch a road across it.

So even though our model showed that this road would very well could be extended whether that would happen I don't know but we truly do have roadways already that are that connect those two.

Yeah and to add context um the Hardman property right here they've come in with a development proposal that I believe passed maybe a year and a half or two years ago and it's like half acre lots horse property with town homes in this like kind of near this power substation and so when we think talk about the roads just know they've got approvals for some of that well I like I like all the options.

I like it Brad good job I think you've done a lot of good work and I know that right now you know you drive you have a driving range right down there right where the police practice there's just some kind of brand new development going in but it's just kind of an open road down the south there of Camp Williams and yeah road cars are speeding past there too.

There's not any lines right now.

So I like the option that gives us to hook into I-15 uh future future interchange and also give some possibilities to think so good point.

So I appreciate that.

What would the speed limit be on the yellow road?

You know we obviously need to review that but I'm guessing 35.

So you come off I-15 at 80 75 and then come down into 35 uh it wouldn't be a freeway to free this is more of an interchange okay oh yeah so it's a regular interchange you'd you'd have to come off of I-15 and then it'd be a roadway that runs well it's either 35 or 40.

It's intended to be it would intend it to be you know to carry 4200 cars a day it's a heavy five lane traffic um roadway it's a heavy it carries a lot of traffic um but our our modelers feel and normally the 35,000 cars a day range is kind of more where we want to be on a five lane but in this case with very limited access they feel like that we can take that much traffic through without expanding to a seven lane roadway and increasing volumes and I mean sorry increasing speeds.

And there won't be any anything north of the river really it's just going to be the road.

Yeah we don't think so I mean obviously we don't know how this would may develop in the future there could be an access point but our general thought is it's fairly um limited access.

Yeah so I appreciate your work on this and I know one of my concerns was with the Clubhouse drive extension was bringing traffic through the whole Brook Farms neighborhood and there's parks there and children in schools and we kind of want to protect a residential neighborhood.

So I do like this that the the main road is on the border it's not necessarily through the neighborhood um yeah but there is that concern to well people even Lehigh residents from the south use 3600 north to access access I-15 versus 2100 north and I I it depends I I feel like traffic is like water it takes the path of least resistance right so if it's more cumbersome to drive through a neighborhood and stop at stop lights and just to take that 2100 north freeway I guess that's the question because we at least I would like to you know protect the neighborhood but um I I think this is definitely better than the Clubhouse drive extension so I thumbs up there but I appreciate your work and so I think that's that I think that's what we're asking is obviously it's not a dis I'm not bringing you something for a decision but as we move forward in the transportation master plan this is kind of a key component if you feel obvious there's a lot of things to work out but if you feel kind of more inclined towards the option A which which is the one that Camp Williams supported and honestly would be a per near possible for us to condemn property

Um but I appreciate your work and um so I think that's that I think that's what we're asking is obviously it's not a dis I'm not bringing you something for a decision, but as we move forward in the transportation master plan, this is kind of a key component.

If you feel obvious there's a lot of things to work out, but if you feel kind of more inclined towards the option A, which is the one that Camp Williams supported, and honestly, it would be a pert near possible for us to condemn property through Camp Williams on the other option.

But if if you're okay with us moving forward, we'd we'd start that process through our master planning.

So council.

And yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

Should I just continue?

I just had a few more slides.

This was yeah, this was just the um the the my sl my presentation's kind of two parts.

This is the transportation part and the roadway part through Camp Williams.

Let me just move on.

This one should be quick.

So we've talked um as I talked in my presentation that um the one thing we're always watching is the um we were watching the volumes along Triumph Boulevard.

This is a photo of Triumph Boulevard looking north from the new interchange or the new signal we put at 2150 2150 north.

So these buildings are in the background or the stack buildings.

So we're looking north.

So just moving forward, one thing we looked at in in trying to determine whether it makes sense, what what could we do to get more traffic through here?

And right now it's a four-lane roadway with sidewalks on either side.

Um so what we've looked at is as the potential of placing of removing the curb gutter and sidewalk, and we would have to do some wall work also, but to install um six eleven-foot lanes instead of the four um travel lanes through this uh intersection.

Um just to give you an idea, and we probably could have added the cars and make it a little bit easier, but this is what we've drawn up that shows six lanes underneath the underneath the underpass structure.

So where you see what it looks like where we have sidewalk, we those would be travel lanes.

So we've looked at that and we feel like that we can kind of sneak a six-lane through road through there.

Um a couple things that we would have to do is we would need to um we need to limit the speed limit from 35 to 30 miles an hour.

And what that does is it allows us to take the clearance, the required clearance between those vehicles mo uh that are closest to the abutment.

Um we're allowed to have them closer to the abutment with a with uh slower speed.

It's the same type of approach we had to take on Main Street, just right through the downtown area where the speed limit reduces on Main Street so that we can um have that they call it street furniture, the street friction right there through the main street area.

We had to drop the speed limit in Main Street just for that two-block section, that'd be the same type of thing here, and we would propose that we would drop the speed limit from 30 to from 35 to 30 between Ashton and um Ashton 2100 north.

Um it also would require us to remove the sidewalks.

Um I'm not sure how many of you have ever been on that sidewalk before.

Um we as I I took my family on that, I'm not sure what I was thinking.

I tried one time.

I took my family on it um six or seven years ago one time, and that was the last time we uh we ever did that.

Um it's you kind of take your life into your own hands.

Just to give you an idea, we've asked uh we asked Mike and his staff to to let us know how many pedestrians or cyclists do use that sidewalk.

It's actually a little higher than what I had thought.

Uh and correct me if I'm wrong.

Oh, where is Mike?

Oh, Kim.

I believe that number was uh about sixty um users, either bicycle or um or sidewalk users in a day.

That was a count that was taken on a Friday.

Um again, that's a little higher than what I thought.

But in doing this, we will again we would propose to remove the curb and gutter and the sidewalk, widen the road, still have curb and gutter, but then just to show you kind of what our feeling is with the sidewalks.

I I believe Kim and me, this is maybe I shouldn't be using this, but this is this is almost um I believe this is Mike's one of Mike's future proposed trail maps, um, just to give you a better context.

But um my point is as we look at this that um trail that plan, the trail plan does not show any trails through this area.

I'm not sure whether Mike had considered whether and the planning department would consider any sidewalks, but the purpose of this map is to show that if you follow the yellow lines, the yellow highlights, these are alternate paths for users to take that are safer than going underneath the underpass.

Just as a reminder to each of you, we do have funding, the city secured funding to build, is it called the front runner trail, Mike?

I think it is the front runner station trail that runs from front runner station.

Um it's the I think maybe it's called the Thanksgiving Thanksgiving Point Station Trail.

Yeah, maybe but basically it runs a new trail from the Thanksgiving point station, the front runner station on the north side of the tracks, all the way along the tracks.

Um crosses across a bridge, a new bridge across Triumph Boulevard, and then ties in over by 2100 north.

And then U Dot has, as I think you're aware, UDOT has already committed to build this pedestrian bridge across the freeway for us.

So anyways, these yellow highlighted areas show our proposed alternative routes for uh active transportation users.

So that's that's what I have to proceed.

So you're just tiny that you're just proposing the six lanes from 2100 to Ashton Boulevard down to 2100 north.

I think the only the only concern I have, I love I think the three three lanes each direction makes sense.

I think it's just the bottleneck areas.

So uh morning traffic can be rough going north on Triumph.

So you would be going from three lanes to two after Ashton.

That's just something that you know, we may solve one problem to cause another problem if it's bottlenecked.

And then and then the interchange of 2100.

I know we talked a little bit about that, and it's it's still just super tight.

But if we can figure out how that how we can make that work, then obviously we this is super high level us looking into this.

Um maybe to answer your question.

Northbound, our intention would be that when we hit Ashton, we would likely take that third lane and drop it into a right turn only onto Ashton.

So the two left lanes would be straight throughs and the right turn, or the eastern of those three lanes would turn into a hit a trap right.

Um so it it'd turn into Ashton, and the same thing uh southbound.

Um we would we would trap that one right onto um on the 2100 north westbound furniture road.

Now obviously we may work out other options.

This entire property right here, um, which is between the subdivision and the 2100 North Freeway is owned by UDOT.

So if we needed to pick up some property from them to put an additional right turn lane, we could probably do that.

Um I don't know that they have any intentions for that property.

I think it makes sense going southbound because there's so many people coming southbound and going west on 2100 that it would it would be helpful.

I think for the morning commute going north, um, even if we have that far right lane turning right on Ashton, there's there's really nobody going in that direction.

So it would I think it would still back up probably to the train tracks um as people are merging or trying to merge.

So yeah, southbound looks more promising than northbound, I think for this one.

Unless unless we wanted to make it three lanes all the way past the movie theater going into the interchange.

Yeah, we would obviously we'd have to run the models in more detail.

These models are very large scale.

Um so we didn't we didn't run in depth.

Incidentally, we did actually look at even before UDOT proposed the flex lane proposal on Pioneer Cross when we looked at flex lanes here.

Um, you know, could we because the traffic is directional, as you've mentioned, right?

AM traffic is directional northbound, PM is directional southbound.

But the problem with running flex lanes in this small of a corridor, it's just too hard to make those transitions.

Um it's just too short of a roadway section, unlike Pioneer Crossing that's you know, four miles, six miles long.

So that was another option we looked at, but that was a couple years ago before U DOT even thought about doing or announced they were doing flex lanes on Pioneer.

But anyways, that's the thought.

Can I add just a quick I know Mike wanted to stay, but I'll just kind of let you know what his thoughts are on this.

We we always hate to lose, even if it's not the most comfortable sidewalk to be on, especially for pedestrians more than cyclists.

Cyclists, it's a lot easier to go around.

I guess we we would really want to take a look at that.

Yeah.

We want to look at that and just make sure that we're gonna do that.

Yeah, the as much as we can still provide connectivity for pedestrians.

So anyways.

Uh the south side of 2100 north not having flex lanes to the north side suddenly having an extra lane there that's changing all over.

Plus we have a lot of dual left turn movements um in between the furniture roads.

If you if you review the trigger summary on the HTS and the Thanksgiving point area plane, we have a lot of dual left turn scenarios, northbound and north and southbound as well as east and westbound.

So this gets this intersection uh between the two furniture roads is not controlled by Lehigh and it has a lot of left turn movements.

So that was our concern on the transitions for the flex lanes.

But I appreciate your time.

I don't know if you have any other thoughts.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay.

Um looks like we have uh closed session, so if somebody would like to make a motion for the reasons listed in the agenda.

Do we also do the li is it also for legal have to say that?

No.

Let's there anything else we need to add?

No.

No, we don't okay.

I second that.

Okay.

Um you have a motion and a second.

Any questions to the motion?

We don't need to do that, right?

Okay.

Um all in favor.

I I any opposed?

We'll move into a closed session.