Order the regularly scheduled meeting of the historic preservation commission.

I'm Jordan Morales, the chairman.

Can we please take the role?

Hey.

Anne Pieper?

Yeah.

Sally Pelt.

Excuse.

Excused.

Nicolas Robinson.

Excuse Patricia Keaton?

Here.

Matt DeRose?

Here.

Robert Boutman.

Here.

Jordan Morales.

Here.

All right.

Excellent.

Well, uh, item one, creation of a committee to esta oh am I reading that correctly?

Creation of a committee to establish procedures and guidelines for three-dimensional imaging.

Yes, part of the recent change to the ordinance uh done by Alderman Bauman and Mr.

Jaris requires uh a group of you to set guidelines for when we are going to require three-dimensional uh imaging for demolitions.

So volunteers required so is this requiring essentially BIM modeling for demolition projects?

Is that what it is?

Yeah, it's basically you know who stores the information and how specific is it and so forth.

Fairly standard, but I think it would be important to have a committee think about that and think about what projects and I guess I I hope I don't want to speak out of turn here, but I guess I've talked to a couple people, and there's about approximately 250 um demolition permits a year.

A couple different people have told me that.

And I would say, you know, of those there might be five, six, eight, ten worthy of of or needing laser scanning.

And I think that that's the point of the subcommittee is to make the determination, certainly if it's on a local register or the national register, uh, certainly qualify.

But that does not mean then that if it is, but you know, that that it needs to be scanned, right?

I think it's just a subcommittee to evaluate what really is worthy uh of that.

Sure, sure.

Well, I actually I think the ordinance defines that it's this subcommittee would prepare technical specifications.

Yes, as to what the scan should be, you know, the dots what whatever the parameters are and technical parameters because the ordinance is very clear.

Only properties that are locally designated and in historic districts are covered, not his not registry, not national register.

Right.

Which is really the only and and anyways is local.

We don't have it on that.

And I don't think we've uh we've had demolitions of structures in a long, long time that are historically designated.

We've had garages and shacks and sheds and things of that sort, like today.

So it does not apply to garages.

I see.

Well, it's phrased that it could be it will be up to this committee to uh decide whether all garages get exempted or up.

Is there a certain size or quality standard?

Is there a description of how what the possibilities are?

Like, do you like you're asking, does it need to completely be scanned or just partially scanned, or what what is your question?

The first and most basic part of it is that the exteriors only the exterior scanned.

Okay, no interiors of these buildings are required, and that's a much longer process.

Okay, the exterior scans.

We did that, you saw that in the article in the newspaper two months ago, that e-line building on on historic third street.

Well, reputed you know, years ago, and that it seems like we have um you know lost that battle of saving that.

So we did go as a test case, pilot case out to scan the exterior of that, and that was 25 to 30 minutes to do that.

Scan.

And it it was uh Jeremy Janine, he had that image in the in the paper.

You guys saw that image.

So that's basically, I think what we can do is formalize specifically what I said.

Right now it's just been kind of loose discussion, so we can work with Tim to say precisely and also in something like that.

If you remember that's a corner building.

Okay, so it had the east facade and the north.

The other two facades are inconsequential, they didn't have any sort of historic features or stone or anything like that.

So it's meant to be, you know, a very kind of um uh user-friendly thing done quickly, inexpensively, but it helps us retain our heritage here before those things disappear.

Okay, and does the ordinance say that the uh person who owns the building who wants to tear it down is responsible to pay for that?

Is responsible for that to miss that does the ordinance?

Is responsible for that to me set does the ordinance before before they can tear it down?

Yep, right.

Okay, and who approves it then?

Who approves what they did?

And that's what this committee this committee will set up the rules.

Okay, describe what's required.

Got it.

Okay.

So uh we're gonna create the committee.

Are any uh members of this commission besides Matt interested in uh joining this three-dimensional imaging subcommittee?

We have Ann.

She's got a lot of I'd also be opening um that subcommittee.

Good, good.

Awesome.

Good.

I was hoping you uh would sign on next time.

An architect would be a good one.

Yeah, of course.

Sorry, it's me a lot of getting in.

I think the meeting information that was sent in the last email.

I don't think that's the value.

I'd use the link for our the January meeting.

Oh, okay.

All right, we've got three.

Matt, how much did that cost?

Like, you know, what would the be the value of that kind of imaging?

We've we talked about a little bit before, but as I said, it can be maybe as low as $750.

Uh that was a simple building.

Yeah.

I mean, if if you got a pretty large, wonderful deco building that's gonna take several scanning, that might cost a couple thousand, but yeah, most of it stays really within that lower amount.

Okay.

Um it's probably best to stick with three so we don't have a quorum.

I I agree.

Okay, true, true.

You guys try and do something silly in your subcommittee meeting.

All right.

Uh Matt, do you want to be the chairman then of this subcommittee?

We'll do that, yeah.

Okay.

All right.

Um motion to establish the 3D imaging subcommittee with Matt as chairman, Ann and Nicholas as members.

Uh that's all that should be it.

That should be good enough, right?

Uh fine.

Do I have a second?

Second.

Second.

All right.

All in favor?

Aye.

Aye.

Any opposed?

No, okay, it carries.

All right.

Item two five one nine two one, a resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for demolition of a garage.

Yeah, 2465 West Congress Street in the Garden Homes Historic District for Ashley Montgomery.

Oh, right.

I thought we'd start today with two really easy ones.

Um of the garages and garden homes are original.

This one is unlikely uh unlikely to be salvageable.

The owner requests uh permission demolish.

It seems reasonable to do so.

Agreed.

Anyone have any questions on this one?

Um I'm gonna move to accept this, but that raises a question that I have.

Uh how often do you get these and when you do get them, something like this for a demo like this?

And do you always bring it to the commission?

Or are you able to make staff decisions?

Nope.

Demos always come to you.

Demo's always come here.

Okay.

I'll I'll make a motion then to approve the demo property.

Do I have a second?

Okay, awesome.

All in favor?

I think motion carries uh let's see here.

There too.

Oh, we should we have Sally here now.

Excellent.

All right, item 25196 resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for demolition of an attached garage and to conduct related repairs at 1060 East Juneau Avenue in the first ward triangle Historic District for GMC MCR Miller House LLC.

Okay, so let me get my dates right on this building, but let's see.

Uh 1887 house on East Juneau.

1960s garage slapped on the west side.

It is not really doing anything for the building's character and is causing some damage.

Uh and the way the uh gutters are routed, it's causing some masonry damage to the main building.

The owners would like to remove it.

Staff recommends approval.

Okay, question on these.

Is there intention to build a new one down the road?

They may.

And what about the other one that we just approved?

Um didn't inquire didn't inquire on the garden homes one.

Um I have spoken to the owners of this property, and they're certainly thinking about it, but there's nothing imminent.

Okay, so when they do, it'll come here anyway.

All right.

Oh, and this also has since there is a door from the garage into the house, they would like to replace it with this new uh new wood door, just so that they rather than brick it break up the opening.

And you approve that door too?

Yeah.

Ms.

Chair, the owner is here as a trust, correct?

I believe so.

I uh I don't know if the owner is here, but the contractor was saying the planning is actually the trustee.

Possibly.

This is quite the house.

Yes.

Hasn't been occupied for in many, many, many years, although there's a caretaker that allegedly lives on the top floor.

But it's all furnished from the day.

Oh, yes.

So yes, yes, it's quite destroyed.

If he's healthy enough to do it, but yes.

Do you want to speak?

Nobody here on this?

Yeah.

Is this yours?

Yeah.

Well, it's not mine.

No, I represent it.

Oh, the owner is a trust, correct?

Still you owners a trust.

Yes.

All right, thank you.

It's very nice inside, yeah.

Yes.

Except for this garage.

Right.

Right.

Yeah, the garage encroaches the last.

Okay.

Oh, it does really.

That crossed a lot.

Yes.

Oh, okay.

I forgot about that.

Yeah.

That's another reason for it.

Coming down because you own that lot, but I'm not sure though.

Okay.

Okay.

Any other questions regarding this uh item here?

Move approval.

Move approval.

Do I have a second?

Second.

All in favor?

Aye.

All right, moving on.

Item 251818 resolution relating to a certificate of appropriately for rebate rehabilitation of the Guter Goider.

Goider Peshke Frey building at 324 North 15th Street and individually designated historic property for Sunset Investors.

All right.

They are ready to go through with their uh making it a usable building, uh, which mostly involves uh repairing windows, repla installing missing windows, uh reopening bricked in windows, and removing a lot of uh concrete block that has bricked in various openings.

Um this uh as you see is the new site plan.

Um we only have uh authority over um the building on the left with a slight probably up to about the driveway.

Um but the whole site plan is being shown as a courtesy.

Current condition of the property, you can see what's been bricked in, filled in uh graffiti existing south and east.

Reopen some windows, punching a door in the concrete block uh in the concrete block, reopen some doors and entries, remove some non-historic fencing.

More condition photos, general restoration with window products we've seen used before, or uh repairs or matching to existing windows in the building.

And with uh one uh relatively inconsequential change uh change, uh the feds ordered that the uh new fencing not have masonry piers, so it will be different from the drawing, and there will be no piers, it will just be a decorative metal fence.

Um proposed parking structure that is not under our review, but to that show you as a courtesy, and yeah, staff is recommending approval with our standard conditions on uh wood quality masonry work and that no uh no vents be installed on the St.

Paul facade.

And this has already been um approved by the feds?

Uh at least partially, you'll have to ask Ken that Candle Brunig.

I'm the owner.

Um I have part two approval from the National Park Service on everything on the last review.

They came back with conditional approval that I not add the brick piers at the corner.

And they did at least give me guidance because there's currently chain link fence at the corner.

And if they gave me no guidance, I would have had to just leave chain link fence.

So luckily they did come back and they said that the decorative aluminum fence was okay, just get rid of the pole the brick piers.

Just get rid of the pole the brick piers.

The only other thing I have open as far as open unresolved items with the National Park Service right now is the final selection of the wood flooring.

Otherwise, everything's been approved.

The site lighting's been approved.

There um and the new building has been approved, and there are two signs that are being added with a little flower plant or box in front of them.

Normally the National Park Service doesn't like landscaping the front of the historic buildings, but I snuck those two landscape boxes in there for flowers, but they approved it.

Uh those are all windows that were bricked up in the past.

So basically, we're coming back to the period of significance of 1890, with one exception, and that is the large window on the west wall.

If you go back one slide, um it's not a rectangle.

Um there's a door and uh overhead door and a man door in there, and they did allow me to square that opening back up.

That opening was created in the 1950s, and there used to actually be a skywalk across 15th Street to another building.

Um but that window, it's all boarded up right now.

It's all the the frames are all rotted.

Uh so that whole thing is coming out, and they've allowed me to put in uh all new Quaker windows in there.

They've approved the details of that.

It's designed to match up with all the venting of the original window arrangement.

Um the windows that are going in are the low E that the National Park Service approves, uh, although on the north side I did put in clear because you can't you don't need the low E on that side.

Um also I'm doing repairs, they were windows that were new in 2003 after the big fire.

Um between and so there were their Traco windows.

Um I'm repairing them all.

There were a little over 300 pieces of glass in the building, and there were about 30 still remaining that were good.

But because I was concerned about checkerboarding, I replaced even the ones that were not broken.

Otherwise, I I could have had a checkerboard look to it.

So all the glass is new, but the frames are original from the after the last fire.

Okay.

Any uh any commissioners have questions?

I have a question.

What um what are you repurposing this building for?

Uh it will be 47 residential apartments, 47 residential apartments, and this is light tech, or this is market-driven.

Market driven.

Uh they would fit within the definition of uh um workforce housing, but I'm not using any type of uh programs other than historic tax credits.

That's the only thing that I'm using.

And we do have wood floors through pretty everything in the building except the bedrooms, which are carpet and the bathrooms get LVP.

Otherwise, we have wood floorings in all the hallways, three-quarter inch wood flooring in all the apartments.

Uh there's a little bit that we've preserved.

The floors are in really rough condition because the building has been vacant for 40 years, so there we managed to save about a thousand square feet of flooring that we're gonna repurpose for the lobbies, but other than that, it's all new, but it's all wood.

Okay.

Any other questions?

Move approval with the uh conditions in the staff report.

Okay.

Do I have a second for that?

Second.

Second, all in favor?

All right.

Thank you for your work, Kendall and for your tension to detail.

Thank you.

Beautiful.

Thank you.

All right, item number 251847.

Resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for a rear edition at 2315 East Ivanhoe Place in the North Point South Historic District for Kate Crowley.

Okay, so uh up on the screen we have an existing wood deck that is uh ready for uh demolition and a proposed new sunroom to replace it.

So up on the screen, we have an existing wood deck that is ready for demolition and a proposed new sunroom to replace it.

Sighting as shown.

Measured drawing showing the exact location and context.

So painted uh painted wood, uh brick foundation, concrete steps, decorative ward cornice and built-in gutter, wood trim and paneling, uh various light fixtures that have not yet been selected.

Size of 14 by 16 to settle it just under the belt course of the between the second and third floor.

The sunroom is complementary to the existing architecture and historic character of the surrounding district.

The flat roof is necessary to avoid obstructing uh existing windows on the structure.

And the classical design is well differentiated from the um eclectic prairie tutor combination style of the home.

It is designed not to be seen from the street, although there is a slight little overhang of the corners, but that will mostly be hidden by the chimney unless you're looking at a very specific angle.

So uh staff recommends approval again with our standard conditions on wood quality.

Okay.

Anybody have any questions, sir?

I assume you're here to represent the owner.

Uh yes, Keith Barnes, the architect.

Okay.

Anybody have any questions for Mr.

Barnes?

Looks pretty good.

The material though is wood.

It's all painted wood, yes.

Wood.

Okay.

We did try for um composite or LP, but Tim and Andrew corrected us before we submitted to you.

It's it's rare that they say approval with our standard conditions, so must be good.

Yeah.

All right.

Any other questions?

Okay.

Do I have a motion on this item?

Move to approve.

Set the conditions.

With the conditions stated by staff.

All right.

Seconds.

Any uh or sorry, uh all in favor?

Aye.

All right, motion carries.

Thank you, sir.

All right, moving on to item 251727 resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness.

We're adding a third floor balcony at 2015 North Lake Drive in the North Point South Historic District for John and Sarah Hambrook.

We saw this a few months ago.

This is coming back as a uh much more uh subtle and revised design.

So bottom center photo, you can see uh a bay window right there, balcony that'd be put on top.

Um the hood molding will remain the side the side moldings will remain, a little bit of stucco will come out to put in two front doors.

They will be the exact width of the total of the two existing windows plus their mullion.

Uh railing has been brought in a little so it does not uh obstruct the uh the barge board for some uh character, and they will be copying a fen uh historic fence on the property as the railing.

It will need some slight modifications to make uh make it legal for uh railing at that height, but that just means tightening up the spacing a little of the vertical elements.

So while this is a little unusual, it's not really staff feels it's not that much of a change to the building.

Um especially since they're uh going uh going to the effort of using the exact same opening, just making it taller and going down rather than up, retaining all the existing detail.

Obviously, the windowsills have to go, but the side moldings, the hood, the hood over them will remain, and it's a going to be believe it's uh it's a very short window.

I think it's just over five feet tall in your drawing.

I can't quite remember.

Yeah, whatever I send you.

I'm not sure honestly at it.

But yeah, it's not a full height.

It's yeah, it's short.

Right.

Okay.

Now, Tim, I remember we had extension extensive discussion on on this item in the past.

These changes, I don't really recall everything, but they reflect basically what we had, what we had uh sent back to the to the applicant.

Yeah, I w I worked with them extensively to get these aren't necessarily the final doors.

I told him something with more of a panel at the bottom, so it uh has roughly the same proportions of what uh what's uh glass now and uh glass now will remain roughly what the glass will be on the doors.

Sure.

Okay.

So so the owner's basically done what we asked him to do, and uh you're recommending approval with the condition on the final wood door selection.

Yeah.

Um I put it in here.

Yep, I told Tim I'm having to use whatever door he says I should use.

More or less the one on the right there.

Um it's probably going to be a Simpson door.

We're gonna figure it out.

All right.

Well pulled this out of one of my reference books.

Nice.

With with whatever door, uh Tim decided.

Careful what you asked for there.

Uh Alderman Bauman is a story about a $40,000 door.

So that might blow up your project.

Um, well, okay.

Uh do any commissioners have any questions uh for this applicant?

No.

Okay.

Do we have a motion to approve with the staff conditions?

So move.

All right.

Do we have a second?

Second.

All in favor?

I'm not sure.

All right.

Motion carries, wonderful.

Thank you, sir.

Thank you.

Next uh item 25195 resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness to amend a previous approval of a comprehensive rehabilit rehabilitation of the building at 1220 West Fleet Street Schuster's department store.

An individually designated historic property for Ted Matkim Gorman and Company.

All right.

Uh this is another relatively easy one.

There is basically no changes on the primary facades.

Um they have had a change of proposed tenancy, uh, which means they're all it's going to be all residential, which means they need more windows, which they are going to be adding to the rear.

And there's also going to be a significant redesign of the parking lot.

Um I fully intend that to leave that up to the discretion of DNS and DCD.

Um they're very extensive parking lot uh uh guidelines do seem to apply to this change of use, and we've never had an issue with what they've required before.

It's they're well they're generally well thought out.

Um basically my only uh note is primarily for the applicants that they reconfirm that their parking lot design meets the uh required landscaping standards because it's everything we approved plus 11 windows and a slight and a change to the parking lot and elimination of basement parking.

Sorry.

So yeah.

Sure, go ahead.

Go ahead.

Uh my name's Ted Madcom in the Wisconsin market president for Gorman and Company.

Uh thanks for having us here today.

Um long story short, uh, as Tim kind of indicated, we did not have uh any success putting the Milwaukee County uh behavior, health and human services department in the space.

Uh what happened was we had a specific space for them that was designed.

They designed it uh through Allison.

Unfortunately, it came in about three million dollars over budget, and uh they didn't have the money for the overridge.

Uh they're in a very nice place in West Allis that they're very comfortable with, and the decision was is just too much money to move.

And so um I think a good thing for our project in the long run in terms of we were creating some units in the building that were a little bit forced in, and this new space allows us to kind of spread the spread the units out so it's more comfortable.

Uh we have some uh historically designated characteristic defining spaces in the middle of the floor plate, which are a little inefficient, I guess.

Uh, but um supposedly consistent with our historic designation, and um I think today we just received our part two, didn't we?

Or advised part two.

Yes.

Yeah.

So the revisions that we're proposing today have been um uh approved by NPS recently.

So uh just just to give you a little um sense of what we're doing.

Um I don't know if you guys are all familiar with this area.

Um it is a area which I think is um ripe for redevelopment.

Um this is not one of the high-end uh high-end rent districts.

Um but there's a lot of opportunity there.

Uh the fact that the county has um put a 68 million dollar headquarters uh for Department of Health and Human Services just north.

We will be taking their vacant um building to residential, and then there are some blighted um old buildings, you know, potentially historic, but blighted buildings that are kind of kitty corner on 13th and Valet.

Um, that actually the entire neighborhood is very interested in repurposing or redoing something with.

And so uh this is one piece of the puzzle there that we're hopefully going to turn this neighborhood around, and uh it's very close because it's right now, you know, Vallite Street's a good street, and um as it goes to Winnebago, it becomes better, and I think we can really make this a good segue uh into downtown.

So are you still planning on using the city parking?

Yes, we are.

Yeah, and you know why?

Because we had to uh not do the underground parking because the county was paying half of it, and they left, and we couldn't afford the other half, so now we have to use that lot.

So we'll probably be coming to you sooner than later on that.

So thank you.

Okay.

And this was a previously approved COA.

The change is the 10 new windows, is that correct?

The change of uh the 11 new windows and elimination of a ramp into the basement.

Right.

Okay, anybody else have any questions on this uh item?

Uh just for clarification, it was some like storefront windows or something because it was an office space and now it's residential.

Uh yeah, there is Allison Micorum Architects, I'm the principal design architect.

Um we there were no windows on the north facade.

Right.

Um it's ethos.

Um it was put in by the county.

It was kind of non-character defining.

Okay.

We'll use the architectural term blah.

Okay.

Okay.

Um, and so we're cutting new uh storefront windows into units to get natural light into those units that we're adding on the first floor where there were county offices.

Um, and so we're making them look, even though they're a slightly different color in here, as in your staff report, um exactly the same as the windows that already were on the upper floors.

Um, so they will match um, except they will look a little bit, they'll be a little bit different because they're first floor, but um but the profiles will all be the same.

Okay, good.

Thanks for that explanation.

So there were a certain amount um Ted that you had uh units and now you have more.

No, we actually have the exact same amount, it's just that we're spreading them out uh in better locations.

We are actually cutting in skylights for natural light on some of them, which was expensive number one and not great for residential number two.

So we've kind of moved all that around so it's a more natural layout for the building.

The only thing we have to add are these windows that create the new natural light.

Like what one and two bedrooms in this one, two, and three.

There's three.

And we actually and lofted units on the first floor.

On the first floor where the actual real store front is.

Yeah.

Because this used to be a Schuster's department store.

Um we have lofted units in there.

We'd be really cool.

Just so we don't have bedrooms on that first, you know, on that front area.

We've sort of set them back and raised one up, and then we have two down below that have borrowed light from the street.

Okay.

All right.

Do we have a motion to approve with staff conditions?

So moved.

Do I have a second?

Second.

All in favor?

Hi.

Thank you, guys.

Thank you.

Thanks.

Nice.

All right, moving on to item 25199 resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for landscape alterations, rehabilitation, and other work at the former stable slash carriage house, known as 2007 East Windsor Place in the North Point South Historic District for Wade Weissman.

Okay.

So this is the carriage house for one of the uh 1890s mansions on Lafayette.

It has long been uh separated from the main house and used as its own residence, but it truly was a carriage house for one of the Lafayette place mansions.

Um this is generally what we're looking at.

It is kind of a long uh long list of projects.

Uh new fabric awning at the existing balcony, new doors at the uh balcony, new awning over the front entryway, new entry, uh new better new entry door, new handrail and guard rail at the stoop retaining wall, more new storm retaining wall, um new gas lantern at the uh corner here over led in the driveway and the entrance to the main entrance to the property, new roof shingles, uh repair uh existing windows, new gut uh gutters and downspouts, new concrete driveway, new concrete retaining wall, uh stack new uh modify stack zone retaining wall in the north elevation for fenced enclosure for garbage cans and replace the chimney with a uh larger, larger, more historic appropriately appropriate design.

So, uh yes.

As the building has been uh was designed as a carriage house, it has lacked some features that would make it more functional as a residence.

This project will also reverse some uh previous inappropriate alterations like the uh metal chimney and some out-of-character fenestration.

Um you can see on the right, it's got one proper uh carriage door and one probably mid-1960s wood overhead door.

Um several uh windows on the throughout the building have been replaced.

Uh they will be um uh the bad windows will be replaced with new wood windows, uh the good windows will be repaired in place.

Um the existing chimney, uh which you can cut this square little thing up here, is actually faux painted metal, it's not actually brick.

Um so I don't know what happened over the history of the building, but this is this carriage house is from about 1905.

There's no there's if there was an original chimney, that's not it.

Um it would not be unusual for a carriage house to be heated and have a chimney, so I think it's reasonable to uh allow for that.

Um the entry uh the garage door surround, some improvements in the detailing.

Um I do feel like the uh support brackets on the entry awning might be a little too much detail, but that could be up to the discretion of the commission.

Um the gas lamp is also a little un uh usual.

We've usually said no to gas, but this is right at the end of uh the time when gas might have been used, so could be fine if the commission has no objection.

Um the landscaping stuff is barely worth mentioning, all just very nice work and general improvements, and then I do have a concern about adding shutters since it was while it was a very a nice carriage house, it feels like adding shutters is a little too much, turning it into a residence from what it was historically.

But really, the only thing that I would say is a consequential issue is the shutters because it just don't seem right on a carriage house.

So that being said, um prove uh approved with conditions.

Um one condition we always put in that awnings be a real fabric, whether it be uh doesn't matter if it's synthetic, just not a plastic sheeting.

Um deny the uh shutters and require step flashing on the new chimney just to be consistent with our design standards for all chimneys, even though it's new.

Uh so recommending approval with those conditions, and I will threw it uh to the uh architectural team and owner.

Awesome.

Please just introduce yourself.

I'm Reed Weissman.

I'm the architect as well as the owner of the building.

My colleague is Stephanie Engelking, she's been helping me with the submission.

So we're here to answer any questions you might have.

Do any commissioners have any questions?

Or maybe your upgrades.

Yeah, it's um the the building was two condos.

I don't know when it was turned into two condos.

Um I bought one and renovated it.

Uh and then uh about four years ago I purchased the lower unit, which was owned by an absentee uh owner.

Um have been sort of searching to what to do with the property.

Um it it does have a lot of uh deferred maintenance issues.

Uh the the the owner downstairs just kind of objected to putting any money into anything.

And so now that I own both properties, I would like to see the shell brought up to a reasonable level of um uh compliance.

Um, you know, the the like latest windstorm blew a ton of shingles off of the roof because it's like 40 years old.

Um there are you know combination storm screens that I just love.

They're aluminum, that's sarcastic.

Um so I want to rehab the windows.

Uh the intent is to rehab scrape down all the sort of existing finishes on it.

Um and then I'd like to have custom storm screens put on it, like the old fashioned way of doing it.

Um the stoop on the front at the front door is probably not original and it's falling off the building.

So there it it probably doesn't have foundations on it.

Um there are uh a number of items that had changed over the years where that awning is on the second floor that used to be a stable, and so there was you know two small doors that had a winch sticking out above it to um you know bring hay bales up.

Uh I love shutters, um, and so it's just my way of dressing up that house a little bit.

Um but you know, it was a utility building and it was kind of a simplified mini knee of the front house, which had been added on to a number of times, but it's a very prominent elevation as you come up Lafayette Hill.

Uh and it does have nice you know detailing.

It's got the corner coins.

Um right now the the neighbor has their uh electrical power sort of in a conduit across the cornice of the house.

Um I'm working with Wii Energies to create an easement that would essentially be under the driveway and a directional board to that other property uh at my expense so that there aren't any more poles being added to the street.

Um and I I am just looking for uh upgrades to the house so that it lasts another hundred and twenty years.

I'm not bothered by the shutters that much either, actually.

They kind of fill out the wall space.

It's a little utility, and I think that there was a comment made uh about it being maybe tolerable on the second floor.

Hmm.

All right.

Tim, do you have a picture of the house that goes with the carrot's house?

I can't.

I should have put that in the PowerPoint, but I will pull it up on Google.

Thank you.

But I've I've looked to replace the garage door with a design that's custom so that it picks up on all the details of that art top.

Um garage door that has been sealed in place uh with the diagonal beadboard in the panels, and you know, there's a lot of wonderful little things in on the on the building that I just really want to essentially emulate that uh brick one went in the center.

Oh that's Randy's house.

That's pretty a good house.

Um he owns like four of them on Lafayette, so that's his house.

Is it Randy Bryan?

Wait, doesn't Randy's in that house.

Yeah, I spoke with him last night.

Okay.

So does this carriage house a butt at the back of their property?

Used to be part of the property, but it was subdivided off at some point.

Uh I think in the 80s.

But it's on the back side of this yes, it's it's behind.

Now this building has also had a number of additions to it to the back of it.

Um and and to the side of it to create a I think a separate apartment entrance.

And I know Randy had a number of plans for adding a garage or a carriage house to hit that property in the back.

He has no garage.

No.

Parks of the street?

Yeah.

Does he really?

Well now he parks at one of the other properties.

Ah, okay.

Because like I said, he owns like he seriously owns three or four of them on Lafayette.

Okay.

And he proposed, Bob, if you remember, he proposed a kind of drive-through garage on that east side about 10 years ago.

Yeah, he started it too.

Well, did he even start it east side?

Done for the foundations and then had a really bad winter, and apparently it buckled the foundation.

And so he ended up digging it out and filling it back in.

Oh, interesting.

And then on that block, I think it seems to be about 30 years ago, Boris Gockman had you know that.

The single story coach house with the two stories added.

Yeah.

Right.

So that challenge of you know, just sort of storage carriage houses into livable units, and that was about 30 years ago when he came to us with that.

It's I've lived in Milwaukee my whole life.

It is one of the coolest little interesting streets because it has like six carriage houses.

Yeah.

And there's a carriage house behind the carriage house, and you know it's funky, and there's zero a lot line, and you know, it's it it's a it's it's just a really unusual place to be, and that's why I fell in love with it.

Yeah.

Well, that's good, and you've done a lot of historically sensitive projects.

Now you have uh shutters on on the door, right?

Is that what I'm looking at?

On the front door?

Well, right?

No, that's it's a window in the door.

It will remain a window, it just goes down pretty low.

It does.

Oh, okay.

So it's uh down to the floor window.

It's it's actually two windows that are stacked on each other.

Okay, but it's a kind of a tall opening.

A kind of double hung, not a triple hung, not a Thomas Jefferson.

Triple hung windows.

Which are cool also if you go to Monticello.

I look at triple hung windows.

Yeah, that's pretty important.

Yeah, they're great.

Yeah.

Okay, so shutters on there also.

Uh personally, the shutters fine uh on that top floor near the coins, you get close to the the shutters get close to the coins.

There's there's just a little bit of yeah, on each of those sides, but yeah, outside of that.

Uh so you're kind of thinking to be sensitive to the thing that the the house that you showed us, Tim.

Yeah.

Randy's up, which didn't have shutters.

Right.

Well, so it had the coins and it looked in the brick, all that, but it it's it had a much more ornamental cornice, you know, with dental.

So there was a slight overhang.

Yeah.

So that's kind of what I was using as sort of that's sort of what I was trying to do with that awning over the front door was to have a graceful bracket that held that semi-flat roof, you know, out so that it would cantilever and not need additional supports.

Sure.

And then the last question that I have is on that drawing, uh, it says retaining, you have the wall modified existing stack stone wall for for access to new.

And then on your thing, you have a new stone wall, right?

So on your drawing, it says a new concrete drive.

It says new stone clad retaining wall with stone cap.

That's on the side of the uh where the entry stoop is.

Right.

And when I have to replace that, right now you you kind of walk up and uh there's there's a there's uh a railing around it.

Uh and what I would like to do is extend that retaining wall back and face it with the same landing stone that's at the foundations, okay, so that I can go right from my stoop and walk to the backyard without having to go down and then up the hill.

Yeah, and that looks fine.

As I was looking at, well, what's the nature of that wall?

But it's around the rest of the house, so you're just extending that character.

And then that's a concrete driveway or something.

Right.

It's concrete.

And then it's street bricks.

And the street bricks are you know 125 years old.

What what are street brick?

So cobblestone, no other brick.

Right, ground cutters.

Right, okay.

They um, but the it's a very tight area.

Yeah.

Uh and and Randy in the front house is for him, he he has an easement up that driveway.

And so he intends on using that easement to access his new garage if he ever adds it.

Okay.

Um the problem is is that between that the house to the east and the fact that I'm trying to create a a garden in the back of the this property.

Um there's no room for snow to be shoveled, especially after a winter like this.

So I have invested into a snow melt system for the driveway to be replaced.

In the in the concrete.

The what?

Snow melt?

Yes, heating in your concrete driveway on the exterior.

Uh I check that out.

I did that quite a while ago and didn't realize till later that that actually is a code violation.

It kind of makes some sense environmentally.

Oh but maybe that's been voided.

Okay.

Check that out.

It is convenient.

Oh, yeah.

Yeah.

Big time convenience.

And I'm a I mean, unfortunately, I'm I'm a semi uh uh I'm I'm semi here over the winter months.

Uh huh.

So I am back every few weeks, but I also have an office elsewhere in the country that I work out of.

Yeah, okay, sure.

Good.

All right, those are my questions.

Okay.

So I'm just trying to be you know proactive about sure.

Yep.

Cool.

Any more uh questions from commissioners?

Okay, uh there's some crosstalk about shutters.

Do we feel strongly about shutters?

I do not I think uh I think there's a lot of attention to detail to this and making this you know very attractive part of the neighborhood and addition to the tax space for the city, and taking this into the future on a peaceful manner.

Some I'm with Matt.

I don't add if any strong objections to the shutters.

No.

Okay.

So the motion we'll be looking for is a motion to approve with staff conditions, except for the deny shutters per guidelines.

So we'll take conditions one and eighteen.

Quick question.

Um the awning over the front door, is that wood?

It's wood on the underside and copper on top.

Okay.

Very nice.

Okay.

Um I have that motion?

Twelve move.

Okay.

Uh with uh that identification with staff concerns.

Excellent.

All right.

Do I have a second?

Second to all in favor?

I have it.

All right.

Motion carries.

What's the score footage?

Interior.

Both units.

Uh I think total it's right around 2400 square feet.

Two floors.

It's good size residence, then.

It's not a good thing.

So it'll be one and one unit, basically.

I'm sorry.

You're converting it back to a single unit?

Eventually, yeah.

That's the next sort of phase is to uh in in the back of the property.

You can't see it, but in the back, there's four carriage doors that were filled in with windows when they turned the first floor into a condo.

So um uh the entire south facade is basically glass, which is unusual for a building of this character.

Um and and then that area we're fencing off to create a private courtyard back there.

So yeah, I think it's gonna turn into a really great place to live.

And it's a perfect location.

All right, thank you all.

Thank you.

All right, so the last item um on this section here, item 25201 resolution relating to certificate of appropriateness for a mural on the south wall of 918 North Valar Phillips Avenue in the Milwaukee General Sentinel Historic District slash complex for seeds of health.

Okay.

So this is the uh wall directly above um uh above uh that sports bar um Golesby.

Goulds base, yes.

Um it is about this wall has been painted for a very long time up until very recently it also had uh metal screen over it that was take uh taken off for this occupant.

Um originally built in 1918 with a 1923 edition and a 1960 edition.

Um school moved in in late 2021.

Um design, I'm mostly bringing it here because all the murals we have approved before have been on detachable panels.

This one is uh on going to be on mural cloth.

Adhered to the building.

Yes, yes, um metal cloth.

Mural cloth.

So uh synthetic fabric that is basically uh glued to the b uh glued to the brick.

Um yes.

Um my only concern is uh that every indication is that it should be done with an a breathable adhesive.

I could not, neither I nor the inter could find uh such an adhesive that was rated for exterior use.

Um shouldn't be too much of a problem.

Um but this is why I wanted to bring it to the commission's attention.

Uh meets pretty much all of our standards.

We didn't uh when we did the mural design standards, we did intend to allow for the option of cloth.

It just hasn't come up yet, everyone's ever since we put in that policy, everyone's done panels instead.

So uh designed by a local art artist working with the school students, windows will be remaining.

This is the basic information.

Uh oh, I'm not I haven't been sharing, sorry.

Waiting for that to thinks about it.

No.

There.

There we go.

Let's go back.

Okay, yes.

The wall above major goals be is um like I said, painted for a very long time.

As far as we can tell, there's never been any real effort to have it be a decorative wall surface.

Um windows that are uh present will remain.

Um general concept for the design, it may evolve evolve a little.

Um this is a general concept.

And the mural cloth.

Um there are options for mechanical install uh the manufacture of the mural cloth does allow for uh mechanical installations rather than glue.

I'm not necessarily opposed uh opposed to the uh adhesive, but I believe I'll leave that to the commission's discretion.

Gel adhesive.

Um that's kind of a technical question.

Yeah, I mean I could not which you can pull mortar out.

Yeah.

I mean, you can do like uh metal rods and uh bolt it up like a sign drilled with well known very old office building in each town that had adhesive affixed to the brick and out of it, it pulls the face of the brick off, right?

Yeah, cool be out of it.

Yeah.

Yes.

That is terrible.

So maybe we ask for a little more evidence that the uh adhesive is readily removable, and if not, go for a mechanical installation.

I think that's I think so.

Yes.

Please representative from the school.

State your name and uh address, please, for the record.

My name is Matt Kerbanik.

I'm with Seeds of Health and the facilities director uh addresses uh 1445 South 32nd Street in Milwaukee.

Excellent.

Um we had seen prior to the meeting, you guys had made some comments, so we did a little bit of follow-up to that.

Um we had the our mural artist reach out to the manufacturer and was able to get a material uh material safety data sheet for that specific product, and essentially it is a water-based latex.

So it's any products that she has listed on her material list are all water-based, either uh acrylic or latex.

So cleanable, removable, um, not an oil product.

You're talking about the actual um adhesive that they use to adhere the panels to the wall with.

Panels made of cloth?

Yeah, they're like fabric panels.

Yeah.

Is the adhesive the marrow that's indicated here in the product data?

The adhesive it's similar to the marouflage, but it's not from the the same manufacturer as well.

Is the Benjamin Moore stuff?

Is that yeah, that's the one.

Is that a gel adhesive like it says in the product data?

Correct, yeah.

Yep.

No, in the product data for removal, it says you basically have to use a pressure washer to remove it cleanly.

We don't like pressure washers on masonry, correct?

You can if you keep it under 800 PSI.

Uh-huh.

Otherwise you're uh basically violating state law.

Really?

Um yes.

Um they actually got it in pressure washing of historic buildings over a thousand PSI is a thousand dollar a day fine to both the building owner and and the contractor.

Yeah.

I mean, put that in the list of laws that have never been enforced, I'm sure.

Talk about other school.

Yeah.

So um but now that you said it out loud, it's a revenue source.

Yeah, yeah, we'll be we'll be metering the PSI when this thing comes off eventually.

Yeah, it seems kind of risky to put to adhere something on to the brick structure.

And I I noticed in uh a lot of the other masonry uh items on here we have an all caps, you know, do not do not do this, that or the other thing to masonry uh to masonry materials.

Did you look into like a stretching of the fabric uh around maybe metal frames that wouldn't be visible?

Briefly, we did look at using metal frames for that, but I think based on the parameters for a mural.

I don't know if we were able to use frame a frame like that.

I don't know.

Yeah, it's the whole mural is about 40 by 70.

Oh, it's a big boy of the building.

Why 40 high?

Correct.

Yeah.

That's a big thing.

Why are we going through this the mural cloth?

Why?

Because uh and what I'm getting at is this that it's a painted side of a painted common wall building.

Yes.

Painted.

I mean, that's ultimately that's allowable by the Park Service.

We know that.

They allow that.

If it's painted, you can paint it.

I'm with you.

I'm hesitant about this whole thing.

We got to review this in a couple days for the third ward, too.

We got a big one coming up the third ward.

But I guess I'm just trying to get back to the basics here.

Before we start mechanically attaching it means you gotta drive into the the brick or the mortar, okay.

How many of those do you have to do?

70 feet, you said by 50 feet?

Man, it's gonna be a checkerboard of those things to keep this from wind getting in and getting away.

And I'm starting to wonder why why are we going these lengths?

If it weren't a painted wall, yeah, just a common wall, common brick, common mortar.

I said no, we can't paint it, but it's already painted, right?

Yes, it's already it's painted, it's probably been painted for I would assume painted since the since either Goolsbees went up or the journal moved in moved in.

Yeah.

So I guess I'm just trying to get the commission back to the roots of why are we going to uh such uh mental gymnastics here?

Paint the mural on the wall.

That's a great question.

But I'm I'm willing to step down from that if someone has a good argument why we shouldn't allow it.

Well there are strong federal legal considerations for make requ us requiring uh murals to be removable.

There are significant rights that attach the artist and they have rights of removal at certain point if it's altered in a certain way.

All right.

It's but it's it's legally a very terrible idea to have a mural that isn't removable.

Well, what if you just still would be up to the artist in your contract?

Um artists won't agree to that, is what you're saying.

Yes.

You did a mural, was that painted on your building or it was, but he does have he does have rights.

We if we wanted to alter that side of the building, we would have to uh call him in to get approval.

That's painted on the brick.

Yeah.

That's that's exactly why you do it removable, because if the artist is unhappy about you wanting to remove it, um they get to go take it off and keep it.

Well, this one you can't remove and salvage, right?

It's you're just you destroy it when you remove it, I assume.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah.

In in the ward now, we have had the program last couple of years where there it's on the side of your building.

They're actually dimensions of you know yeah, four feet by six feet or something.

This is a huge thing.

I mean, you'd have to do it, I I would guess, even as a clock in a series of sections, right?

And the you're not gonna get a 70 by 41.

No.

Right.

So you can have to do it.

It's a sheet good like any cloth.

The cloth was preferable for the artist because of the installation.

So we'll have to do put a swing stage on the side of the building, and her installation time is about two weeks currently, because they're about five by five panels that go up individually.

Otherwise, she'd be sitting up there for, you know, I'm not sure how long that would take us to do on a swing stage with how long did it take the Karen Bell?

Didn't that go quickly?

On the side of the dye building.

And Shepard.

I couldn't believe it was like a week when that Karen Bell.

Painted on the building or on panels.

Painted on the building.

Yeah, it is and Shepard Ferry came in with stencils already created for how it was gonna look, you know, all cut out, all ready to go.

So all he had to do, his his team did it in three days.

Three days.

They know what to do.

But it was during COVID, it was winter, it was pretty awful, had to be done before the DNC, which didn't occur.

And la la la like that.

But they knew how to put up a mural really fast with that needed a swing stage.

Definitely needed that.

But uh yeah, it's an interesting point.

I guess if it is panelized like the ones in the third ward, I guess the artist can take it away, but the artists still wouldn't don't they have some contractual uh restrictions.

You can't just take their artwork off.

No, whether it's a painting or on a frame, like the artists can say sign away their rights, but they have to s explicitly sign away their rights.

Yeah, and they don't do that.

But the building also cannot take it off.

So it's kind of like a ghost sign.

Yeah, you know, forever.

Right.

Which I don't mind.

Right.

I like on my building.

But I also said to them I have to do some tuck pointing.

I you know, it was five years ago or whatever it was.

And um I called them and said I have to do some changes.

What do you want to do about that?

And they said, Oh, we'll come out and repair wherever you do your tuck pointing.

Okay.

I'm happy with that.

Yeah.

Raises a good question.

How is maintenance done when these when this fabric's adhered onto the building?

How will they, you know, if they have to tuck point the building?

Right.

Obviously.

Have you recently done that?

They're gonna have to destroy the whole building was after we purchased it, the whole exterior was painted, sealed, painted in 20, the summer of 23.

Yeah.

And they did tuck pointing?

Yep, yeah, they tuck pointed, primed, painted.

Oh, you own the building now, not your own.

Yes, he's a health visibility, correct.

Yeah.

When when did this building become historic?

Uh with the rest of the journal complex.

This was the Sentinels building.

It's the block, yeah.

Yeah, with the whole black, yeah.

Um, one of the alternatives it seems to be.

When the journal bought the Sentinel, this was next to the journal buildings, and they moved the sentinel into this one.

I see.

Okay.

Would would be maybe an adhesive, but man, the more I think about that, adhesive on the brick.

Yeah.

That's gonna be.

And if it's good at even you were saying water-based stuff, but I mean if it's a good marine type adhesive, that's not easy to take off.

Plus, it's becoming kind of uh less open to this idea of the adhesive as opposed to just paint it.

Right.

Well, in the product data, it says it has to be removed with a pressure wash.

Yeah.

So is it the artist's preference that it be on a fabric?

For this particular project, yeah.

So she doesn't always do this.

Um Tia Richardson.

Her um business or whatever we want to call it is cosmic butterfly.

So she's done quite a few around the city, and this will be the second one that she would have done on the fabric.

Okay, otherwise she just does it directly on the building face.

I think the to me, the fabric gives it the illusion that it's removable.

But it's really not.

I mean, it is because you have to pressure wash the thing off, but you can't because you can't take it off and salvage it.

And so therefore the artist has rights for it not to be destroyed, correct?

So this is you this is to Matt's point, you might as well just be asking us to paint the brick, correct?

I mean the it probably will have less damage to the building, right?

To paint it.

Yeah, yeah.

The fabric would because then you could still maintain the building and then just patch up the paint or whatever where you do it with this, you can't really maintain the building at all.

Yeah, I mean, I like exploring the idea, but the more I think about it, the more problems it kind of raises, then it's and the adhesive, we don't know how it'll react, how it'll how I mean you're putting something on there that has already says it has to be removed in a manner that we don't like to do on masonry structures.

Did you, by the way, did you say she had one around the city that was adhered like that?

She yeah, she said she has one other one that I'd have to ask her what location.

Okay, if you could give that to Tim.

Um I would like to see that.

We have to deal with this in the third ward now.

So on Wednesday, Wednesday's noon meeting.

Uh so if half a month, will that hurt?

Um I if that's your recommendation, I will wait for the for your your recommendation.

I mean, I know you probably want to work through your third ward thing and see how that same questions are gonna come up.

That's right.

That's right.

Um so if you could do that favor for us, get it to Tim and then get it to me uh before Wednesday's meeting so we can talk about it.

deal with this in the third ward now on Wednesday and Wednesday's noon meeting so if half a month will that hurt um I if that's your recommendation I will wait for the for your your recommendation I mean I know you probably want to work through your third ward thing and see how that same questions are gonna come up that's that's right um so if you could do that favor for us get it to Tim and then get it to me uh before Wednesday's meeting so we can talk about it okay and Tim well if you could like distribute that information where is that is it Black Cat Alley what's that is she in black cat alley I don't know I looked uh when when we initially started working with her I looked up her website and a couple things initially but since then I haven't so okay yeah I can send uh uh Tim whatever I have thank you I will um also since it came up during this project I had a city attorney produce a le uh uh uh legal memo on visual artists' rights act and murals um I will send that around too it may inspire an ordinance change to there's a federal statute on this yes and one uh several cities have enacted some pretty strict mural processes because of the night the federal legislation that makes this an intellectual property nightmare another thing I'll note is that in the materials and supplies we've got the locks on masonry primer which can't be removed right that's painted onto the surface of the brick yes uh that is very specifically a breathable paint though right so I guess I'll make a motion then to hold it to next month yeah yeah if that's all right all right look at this more so all right um uh are we at least approving the concept of the mural I think we we could hold off for everything all right yeah okay uh so uh Matt has made the motion to hold till next month do we have a second second second all in favor aye any opposed all right with that the motion carries thank you sir thank you for your time yes thank you all right the following files items 10 through what do we have here 27 thank you uh represent staff approved COAs and do we have a motion to approve these as a single all right there we go do we have a second second second all right all in favor aye aye any opposed all right motion carries item 28 review and approval of the minutes from the last meeting on March 2nd 2026 all members received those in their emails we all reviewed them does anybody have any issues with that so we have a motion to approve so move second second all right and all in favor aye aye aye all right and item 29 updates and announcements okay uh we have eight nominations for awards I will well uh Andrew will be covering next month and probably the awards ceremony due to some travel plans I have I will make sure the awards PowerPoint for uh gets sent out prior to voting this time um that's about it um I may or may not be here at the May meeting we'll see the award ceremony at the past I'm arriving pretty late the night before get same same place best what best place yes date uh date and time is on our website um it's it's the Thursday before Memorial Day weekend right okay all right any other updates or announcements how many nominees do we have eight we do have eight yes I was worried for a bit and then uh as usual everyone filed on that line diagonal in uh okay all right see the Wisconsin center districts so applied for COAs yes good for them all righty all right I would entertain a motion to adjourn right now so moved all right second second all in favor this concludes the meeting thank you everybody