As a department every year where we get to these type of, you know, we we tell our folks to take more breaks, extended lunches.

Um fortunately we have air conditioning a lot of our vehicles.

I mean, that is the priority for to make sure that no one does overheat.

I mean we're walking out there.

Extra water we provide.

Um we actually have electrolytes that we're doing.

Our safety crews and supervisors and managers are constantly monitoring folks could, you know, when they're out there, especially all day long.

I mean, that's this is where the production's gonna go down these couple of days.

They're still out there doing their job.

Um, but it is we might have a daily and hourly basis because it is dangerous right now.

Reminding them not to drink soda.

That is that is a big one, yes.

This is why we continually promote water and electrolytes and this is why we provide some of those packets to get put into water bottles because it is very important to stay hydrated.

Okay, I'm sure.

Yeah, uh a resident.

I I was gonna say I'm doing that this morning.

Just posted about their recycling parts and how I had to We had an incident yesterday.

Yes, correct.

That overheated.

Uh ended up going to the hospital overheated based on um the conditions yesterday.

Um is in good condition right now.

I don't have an update like as of this morning, but um was doing much better and had a lot of IVs and fluids.

Cramped up and kind of was sitting there.

So and luckily the public did come out and assist and help.

It was which was good, yes.

Do we do anything on hot day for employees that we know are out there?

Yeah, I mean, like we said, we provide we dealt we tell them to make more breaks.

We do start shifts earlier.

Um so like our sanitation workers are gonna start an hour earlier to get off earlier.

Um if it gets too extreme, some crews will shut off and and we'll have them work six hour days.

It depends on how it each crew is a little different in exp exactly what they're doing.

But that's the conversation, and each group does a things a little bit different.

But we had a conversation just on Monday of like what's coming up for the heat, what is everyone doing, and so we talk to each and single group of how do we make sure employees are safe out there.

If they have to come into one of the buildings that we have, just cool down, that is fine as well.

Okay, thank you.

Otherman um Brouer.

Yeah, thank you so much.

Um and actually uh Alderman Bauman, thank you so much for putting this uh file on here today.

I really I really do appreciate it.

I appreciate you guys being willing to give you know more of these updates because it's something our constituents are you know really concerned about.

And I just want to also echo just the appreciation that I have for all the city work.

I mean, right now we're sitting in air conditioning and the city workers are out there uh sweating away, filling potholes, picking up garbage.

I just I really appreciate all the all the work that they're doing.

I just want to um, you know, a concluding thought I had regarding this that I wanted to share is that we have such a huge task in front of us to win more funding from the state legislature when the new legislature convenes um in January of 2027.

Uh we have an opportunity, I mean, pretty much I'm knock on wood, but you know, you could run as a you could uh a sardine sandwich, you know, you could run a sardine sandwich as a Democrat and they're probably gonna win this fall.

Um and so we are uh, you know, we're poised to have a friendlier legislature in Madison, and I I am I'm committed anyway to you know, meeting with members of the legislature, fighting for more by explaining here in the Milwaukee, there's a lot of unique circumstances that this isn't just some, you know, like like you know, the right wing trope of some uh you know grossly mismanaged behemoth urban center that they're trying to portray every single city as across this country.

This is this is a city where we have a lot of dedicated workforce.

We need more resource to make the quality of life better um for everybody here in the city of Milwaukee.

Um and that's how that's how we're gonna do it.

So I'm I'm fully committed to that, uh to that fight in winning more funding in the budget that introduced by whoever wins the governor's mansion um in the fall, and it'll be fought in next spring's budget fight at the state capitol.

Thank you.

Are there any other questions from committee?

All right, with that, uh Ottoman um Bombs the hole to the problem of the chair.

Uh no objection, so order with that.

We are done with the business today.

So we are adjourned.

More of the same thing.

Um Mr.

Ronald, can you take the role?

Patricia.

Matt DeRose.

Nicolas Hands Robinson.

No, he's online.

I can see him.

Yeah.

Sally Peltz.

There.

And Python.

Sorry about audio networking.

Audio is working.

We can hear you.

Robert Baudman.

He's on his way, I believe.

And Jordan Morales.

Present.

All right.

We'll call item number one, 260254.

Resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for demolition of a fire damaged garage at 2848 North Sherman Boulevard in the Sherman Boulevard Historic District for Andy and Carrie Syrian.

Okay.

Here is the house and garage in question.

Here is the current state.

I think it's self-evident.

I don't think I need to re read the report.

Yeah.

And apologies, my audio wasn't working for a moment there.

Um here.

Yep, yep.

We got you, Nick.

Any questions?

Yeah.

Looks like it's seen better days.

Um okay, cool.

So staff, you have a report with conditions, I assume.

Uh not for a demo.

Oh, not for the demo, but for the build back.

Yeah, yep.

Okay.

So motion to approve is what I'm looking for at this point.

So moved.

All right, second.

Second.

All in favor?

Aye.

All right.

Moving on to item number two, and this is the build back.

So 260255 resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for construction of a three-car garage at 2848.

North Sherman Boulevard in the Sherman Boulevard Historic District for Andy and Carrie Siriani.

Andrew.

Okay.

Uh the uh view of the property again.

Should we be seeing it up on the big TV or no?

Okay.

Yeah, there you are.

Now we are.

Yeah.

Um proposal is to uh replace the fire damage garage.

Uh new design is 30 uh 30 wide, 24 high uh 24 deep, 15 high, three-car design facing the alley.

An existing parking slab will be reduced slightly to accommodate the new wider design.

Features one single and one double overhead door.

The side gable roof has a 512 pitch, two windows and a service door face the house.

Uh and uh the service door is a six-pound design.

Siding is LP smart side and trim is proposed as ASEC.

Um so the design is simple but functional with the required trim details.

Um borrowing the traditional details uh imposed by uh our predecessors, Paul and Carlin.

This actually has more trim details than the garage it's replacing now.

Um is low but similar to the pitch of the former and roof pitch is low of the former garage's hip roof.

Smart size has become the state of the industry for garages due to the expense of natural wood and the difficulty of working with fiber cement products, Hardy, which is uh very rough on tools.

Uh the commission has started to accept the material for garages that have no street presence.

AZEC could also be considered for an alley garage, but the t commission has typically required trim details to be an actual wood.

Staff is not sure if can uh continuing to require wood trim for an alley alley garage is a necessary design standard.

Materials of windows uh uh and doors were not specified at the time I finished the report.

Um, but they are uh composite fiberglass windows and fiberglass and steel overhead and service doors, which is to uh typical for new construction garages.

Um windows yet, but a commitment meant that they won't be vinyl.

Um so uh staff is recommending approval with conditions if accept uh if accepting the synthetic trim, it must be painted.

Smooth finish on all siding and no vinyl windows.

Okay, great.

And uh do any commissioners have any questions?

I believe we have the homeowners online as well, Carrie and Andy Siriani, and the contractor on the contractor.

Okay, Mr.

Chairman's uh quick question for the staff.

Have we approved painting of vinyl plastic surfaces before?

That's what you see on the recommendation there.

I I'm just saying I am saying that it comes in white, and if it isn't painted, it's gonna be more obvious that it is the ASAC.

It needs the paint coating to more to be more unbelievably wood.

And seems like it will adhere to that product like wood.

Yeah.

Every seven years something.

Okay.

It can be mechanically installed with nail uh with nails or glue or screws.

Okay.

Any other questions from commissioners?

Okay.

I will then make a motion to approve with recommendations uh as illustrated by the uh staff, accepting uh synthetic trim, smooth finish, uh, and no vinyl windows.

Yep.

Okay.

Okay.

Do we have a second?

Second.

All right, all in favor?

Aye.

All right, great.

Motion passes.

Uh call item three, uh, which I'm sure no one's interested in.

260397 resolution relating to a statutory demolition review of Lincoln Avenue School 1817 West Lincoln Avenue due to fire for Milwaukee Public Schools.

Okay.

Um generally everyone is uh pretty aware of the devastating fire that we had last week.

Um we have an unusual state law that applies only to the city of Milwaukee.

Uh the school board of a first class city may not demolish any school facility that is 50 years old or older without the approval of the city historic preservation commission, regardless of any uh historicity attached to the school.

Um no designation has ever been pursued for this school.

Um from 1917 uh with uh by Van Ryn and Degelicki, who did the majority of the schools in the teens and 20s.

It was uh briefly home to girls pre-vocational school from 1933 to 1948.

Um it was the South Campus, uh the North Campus was Garfield School, which is still uh which is under no current threat, is on the national register and has been converted to housing.

Uh so I went out the day of the fire and got some photos.

Um it's there is not much of an interior left.

Um you can this is the Lincoln Avenue facade.

You can see the roof completely collapsed through 18th Street facade again, roof collapse on the alley side, falling down into the first floor.

Um side collapse all the way to the ground.

And I borrowed this aerial photo from Channel 58, which really tells the story.

Um I did not pursue a formal report on this one, as we will be having uh presentation from neighborhood services and possibly MPS.

Um that's it from uh from me for the moment.

I will let the property owners speak and the commissioner.

Okay.

Hi, Mary Shannon from the city attorney's office.

Um just to give you a little overview of the statutory requirement.

Um there is a statute uh 119.16 sub-10, which does say that if MPS board makes a decision to demolish a school that is more than 50 years old, it requires the approval of the historic preservation commission.

Um the city attorney's office is of the mindset that this is not a board decision, but we thought it would be a good idea for you to have uh the approval on paper just to cover all of the bases.

Um it is our understanding that DNS has issued a demo order, and I believe we do have staff from DNS here to talk to that.

Um to give you a bit more information.

The um school's uh insurance agency is working on a claim for this loss, and we'll be doing some inspections to try and determine cause and um whatever other information they need for the purpose of that claim.

Um so that will take a little bit of time, um, but ultimately the the building will come down.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Go ahead.

So there's actually commercial insurance on this, not self-insured.

MBS does have a property insurance policy.

Okay.

50 years.

Yeah, it was built in 1915.

What's the year that little uh that addition, not little addition, but the addition is that less than 50?

I believe that's less than 50, but I don't know the exact year.

Yeah.

Okay.

Uh we have representatives from DNS here, I assume, to speak to this matter.

I know it's not for this, but afternoon.

Um Hesamila Royovega, commissioner for the Department of Neighborhood Services, Chief of Building Inspection.

I accompany today with two of my staff from the Compton Nation section.

Um our new um supervisor, Michael Olin, and we have our other Michael Dembski, which is our on-site um uh staff.

So pretty much all we have to say today.

It's like we definitely went through um to the fire call.

And when we went there, um one of our processes was to just do a preliminary evaluation of the site.

Um our first part was just like during the fire doing a little bit more of the suppression for a moment.

Um, if you can see the roof collapse, a lot of the floors also collapse.

So there's not a lot of like links on supporting these walls at this point.

So that's one of the issues that we're facing right now.

The second one would be hazard materials, what kind of hazard materials were inside, like such as bestos lid and everything that down the road as this is starting getting to a little bit more of the dry season, then the dust start coming out.

So we also need to evaluate um from that perspective how the removal of these materials are gonna be.

And the third but not least, it's like um starting in what it is a condemnation or race order.

Um, definitely based on our numbers, this is definitely more than 50% of the asset or the value of the property, one.

Second, it definitely becomes a threat um to the safety of the neighborhood.

Um, especially the site um um going to the west, which is the alley side.

Um, if you think about it, this is around what four stories um that lateral uh wall collapse, it can also take a de-adjacen's properties.

This is the one that have the less as a setback because it's just based on the alley.

Um we have have conversations already as part of our process with the insurance company.

We will continue those conversations.

Um at this moment, it's more about critical just to decide what path um for the demolition we're gonna be taking, versus voluntary or a supportive one with DNS, but we are here just to help and answer any other questions that you have in regards to the conditions, assistant conditions.

But I think the pictures, especially when you see the area also, you can definitely see what is the interior damage at this point.

Okay.

I have a question.

So what happens to all of our other um school buildings that are of the same age without um any fire alarms and sprinklers.

That's a great question.

This is like I think we went through this a little while ago about the non-confirming sprinkles, especially with the residential.

Um it's almost the same kind of uh applicable.

It's gotta be more of an alteration three or more for the scope of work to be retrofit.

Um in this case, definitely you will be needing to do more than that.

Um in the meantime, we continue to do our life safety inspections.

Um that is something that we do do for MPS.

Last year, um, over the last two years, we uh decided to recreate um a model in where right before school year start, all these life safety inspections needed to be performed.

And we did that very successful last year.

Um now we're working on that as well this summer.

But um from the code perspective, there is not a path right now to just ask to MPS to just retrofit everything.

We did did uh um a small um timeline set just to put you in this in on the speed in 1974.

Um it was um just started the non-sprinkle um requirements.

A sprinkle was required to every building higher than 60 feet tall.

Um but that's in 1974.

Before that, there was no requirements whatsoever for schools, maybe for residential, but very different ones.

This is a typical use, it's educational.

So um right now in 2002, when we actually adopted international building code, that's when really um start triggering the um uh requirements for sprinkers for um group E, which is an education.

Um please be mindful that also that has to do with the scale, how big is the uh complex.

Um right now in 2021, anything that is more than 20,000 square feet school and that also occupies more than 300 students are definitely required for new construction to have that.

But right now, everything that we have is existent.

We can go back unless there's a major alteration that will trigger um that retrofit.

So how many how many buildings do we have in Milwaukee that fit that uh shall we say non-compliance?

Well in schools.

Well, that that would be the part that we might probably want to do a little bit more of research, but my understanding is like a great amount of MPS schools are older.

Um that 1974.

Um there would be some, I would say that in the 80s, and there were some requirements for building elements on a school, for an example, a basement, storage room, trash chutes.

Those were like more the ones that were starting to be required to have those sprinkles.

But right now, all we can look is at the portfolio that we have from MPS and kind of break down a little bit more those numbers if anybody else wants to.

Exactly the number of schools that uh would look like MPS half that information.

I see.

Is there somebody from MPS here?

Yes.

I see.

I see, thank you.

Okay.

And we have around 150 life safety inspections to do, so that's an overrush.

Okay.

Any other questions for DNS from commissioners?

No.

Thank you for your time.

Appreciate it.

Uh MPS representatives are here.

So there's the whole facade.

So you guys have any uh additional input on this matter?

Um excuse me, my name is Michael Turz.

I'm the interim chief operations officer for the district, and this is the principal.

Introduce yourself, please.

My name is Tamari Sayela, the proud principal of Lincoln Avenue School.

Okay.

As you can imagine, this is very difficult for us.

Um but we basically need your approval so we can move forward and get this project going for the next couple of years.

Okay.

Any questions for the MPS team from Commissioners?

Go ahead.

Uh any any thought given to deconstruction and salvaging what appears to be a whole lot of brickwork that's essentially undamaged.

What uh uh what we would be looking to do is to see whether or not it is safe to move it first.

Okay, because there could be a lot of asbestos around there, but yes, there is uh we're we are in communication about uh re recovering as much of the brickwork as we can.

Okay.

Question two, do you guys have a kind of a timeline at all when you want to complete this demolition and so on?

Tomorrow.

Yeah, well, that's what I suspect tomorrow at six in the morning, right?

Uh we don't have a timeline.

Again, we're waiting for uh the release of the of the property to us, or we can get in there and and begin to look at what we need to do.

Uh demolition would be the first thing, and we are beginning to prepare our necessary documents for putting that out to to bed and contracting for that services.

So our intention is to be as fast as possible about that, because it was some of the uh comments that were made about you know it's a safety issue and things like that have d do you guys uh or is there any experience with having done this before deconstructing a school or school building in the city?

The the last one we did is when we rebuilt Bradley Tech.

Okay.

Okay.

That was the last time we've done it.

Okay, right.

And did we save anything on Bradley Tech?

No.

Okay.

Inspect you guys went out there, I assume, went to the site.

To this site.

Right.

Absolutely.

Right.

And would be able to assess sort of, I don't know, the possibility of saving some of the stonework.

There's also some nice stonework there considering that's that's entirely possible.

Okay.

Of course, the costs increase dramatically.

If you want to hire a contractor to start piecing apart the building and taking down some of the architecturally significant portions of the building.

Uh before any deconstruction or anything can really happen, we have to test the material and the articulates, because that's all there.

Right.

You can see the loss.

That's really how far did that go?

Um and if we can get the exterior walls were they contaminated, all the interior walls contaminated.

Those are questions that need to be answered before we can really start digging in.

We, I mean, is right.

Well, and I think that the positive and the negative, I guess, are the same here is that there is nothing left on the inside proper.

That I saw.

I mean, any of the retrieval, I think we would be talking about that perimeter wall.

But you're right, that one wall is right on the alley.

Those guys' garages are 30 feet away from that wall.

So but it would be kind of good as we move forward, you know what we have relative to our acceptance, because we don't have a COA approval or double-ission approval here.

But it would be good to work with the staff or work with me to see if some of those things can be salvaged before the whole thing goes away.

Which has happened, I guess, in the past.

We've been on this commission a long time and allowed demos hoping to save stuff and stuff that's never saved.

So I guess I would hope that maybe we can sort of sort of work together and see if some of those kind of components can be uh sure can be salvaged.

Yeah.

Okay.

Okay.

Um so a question I have for Tim is it this process is where it has to go through HBC.

Uh we were just told by uh city attorney that it doesn't really need to be here.

Yes, we just wanted to cover our bases.

I see.

And I'm just looking at the city attorney and what does that mean cover our bases?

Well, given the emergency order being in place, um MPS does not really have much option as to whether or not this building is going to come down.

The statutory requirement that HPC makes the approval is that um it's contingent on the MPS board determining to demo.

So that's why we say it it doesn't apply.

But if there is some action that the MPS board takes either to contract for demo or do some other step that furthers this, we don't want to have to come back in a month and say, oops, okay, now we do need your approval.

I see.

I see.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Um so with M MPS.

It it has this this question again has nothing to do with the HBC, but what are we going to do with the Bob was saying that 80% of our buildings are old?

There appears to be on one year.

Um most of our buildings were were clearly built uh more than uh 85 years ago.

Okay, and and some are built pre-1900.

And so uh we have to look at this as being part of our overall uh facilities expenditures.

We have a lot of requests and needs for things like roofs and boilers and all of this other kinds of things, and so it all becomes part of a priority that we have to look at this this the children in the school will go to another school.

We are in the process of moving this school to another building.

In other words, another school isn't going to get built.

Well, we would again that it would be a decision of the school board to make.

I would my own personal view would be I and I think the principals as well would be that we would have a replacement.

I see.

I see.

Thank you.

Okay, any more questions for MPS.

All right.

Are there any is anyone else here to testify on this matter?

Okay.

Um then I will entertain a motion to approve the demolition of Lincoln Avenue School per the state statute.

So move.

Okay.

Do we have a second?

Second.

All right.

All in favor?

Aye.

All right.

Motion carries.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Moving on to item number four, 2600 five seven resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for selective window replacement at 4377 North 25th Street in the Garden Homes Historic District for Martha Love.

Thank you, Jill.

One moment while I get the slides ready.

Okay.

Sorry, got it.

Uh so a few months ago, a uh someone filed a complaint about uh a inappropriate windows in this building.

Um based on the uh photos provided by the owner, it appears to be one window on the rear of this duplex.

Um per her, it was done by La Casa de Esperanza's weatherization program, and she very uh insistently requested that they put in the correct window, but they declined to do so.

Um she says many years ago, um, based on photos of the other unit, it was almost certainly over 20 years ago.

Uh given that this was uh happened probably over 20 years ago, and other uh incidents like this have been been forgiven when it's not on the primary facade.

Uh staff is remack uh recommending allowing this to slide would you see that again, please?

Recommending uh uh the the window be allowed to be main uh retained.

Okay, as it's just one on the rear 20 years ago at no fault of the homeowner.

You don't think there's any threat from the person who made the complaint if we just let it slide?

They're not gonna pursue it.

Um what do you mean by that?

I don't know.

You know, I don't know.

You know how it can go.

Yeah.

Um I have uh I have access to see who submitted the complaint, and I I can't share who that is uh based on DNS policy, but um I don't see an issue with one window on the rear.

It's also one residential window.

So not like a crazy expense.

Why do we not uphold the standard we could mothball it even, right?

I mean we don't have to give it a put this in context of the grandfathering matter we've been talking about now for a year.

I mean it happened before she uh she did own it, she attempted to get the weatherization program not to do the correct thing.

They they did not comply.

Okay.

So it was doesn't fall under the category of it is just an inherited um property.

No, she's she has been in this house for quite some time.

In other words, the certificate of a reposed doesn't apply here.

Right.

Yes.

Which which window is is the the new one?

Um this one on the back I have the arrow uh bottom left in the rear photo.

Two windows.

Um Tim, so I can understand this this came to our attention because um somebody called it in.

Yep.

I see.

And are either one of you the owner of this I am you are I see that one and and how how long has it been like this?

Did you go on there?

I mean years?

Years, yes.

And somebody just out of the little I uh I believe it was someone from the city came out because um I had a tree in my backyard needed to be cut down.

Oh and when they were there, they probably observed it that when it was there that and that's what's happening.

I see, I see.

Thank you.

You welcome Mr.

Chair, this appears to have all kinds of noncompliant materials I presume was all put on before historic designation of the yes.

I mean that's vinyl sighting, it looks like uh but there the uh at this point I would say the majority of garden homes has uh non com uh non-compliant siding.

Mo uh many of them lost their stucco over the years before the designation and all these windows look to be final.

To me, they do not.

I only see the one without the one without the grid at that bottom left.

The rest all have the six over six grids that they're supposed to be.

Oh, yeah, they do.

Okay.

So what what with our with uh with a vote here?

Glass plaque.

What would you what would you want?

Since it sounds like this has been this way for years.

I am uh recommending uh recommending approval and letting it uh just letting one wind one window on the back go because it's been over 20 years.

But not any of the other issues that seem to be coming up.

None of the other issues uh all of this is prior to designation.

And maybe the w window was prior to designation.

Um actually possibly so that's that's what I'm thinking.

And yeah, this is a strange complaint.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Someone's complaining about something that happened 18 years ago.

Yeah.

Yeah.

At the earliest.

Right.

Or the latest, rather.

Totally.

Yeah.

Okay.

I don't know.

I'm I'm not passionate either way on this one to be.

Well, listen, I'll advance uh then a motion.

Uh what the staff has recommended is that we're gonna move this thing off.

Uh Joe Joe, you're uh here to you have anything to say about this?

Well, hello everybody, I'm Joe Bova.

I'm the secretary of the Garden Holmes Neighborhood Association Incorporated.

Um Martha is a very active member in the association as well.

Uh we're here in support of this love.

Okay.

Okay.

In in support of what would you like to see happen?

Nothing.

Just keep it as it is.

Uh-huh.

Uh-huh.

Uh-huh.

Okay.

Yeah.

All right, my motion.

Uh all right.

We have a motion to accept uh staff's recommendations and approve the COA for the uh window replacement due to the age of this uh of this replacement, which is over 20 years.

Um with that, do we have a second?

Second.

All right, all in favor?

All right.

All opposed is me.

Okay.

Okay.

We've got one opposed.

Okay.

Thank you.

All right, with that the motion carries.

All right.

Thank you.

Thank you all.

I appreciate it.

All right.

Moving on to item number five, two six zero one four-five, a resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for retroactive approval of vinyl windows at 2377 North Sherman Boulevard in the Sharman Bull Sherman Boulevard Historic District for Lakita Hoskin.

Great, thank you.

So um we've got a 1913 craftsman uh style house on uh on Sherman Boulevard.

Um the applicant um in April of last year, April of 2025 received a violation uh order for the vinyl window replacement without a COA.

Um this came to the HPC in August of last year.

Um and August HPC um voted to deny the window replacement.

Um the property owner did not file an appeal in a timely manner uh to appeal it to the zoning neighborhoods and development committee.

Um so she's coming before the HPC again.

Presumably HPC will deny the vinyl window replacement, and she would like to appeal that decision to the Z and D.

Oh, I see.

Okay, so here's a street view from um 2015.

You can see the the main bank uh that's projecting out has got the nine over one windows, and then the windows just to the right of that.

Um had the nine over one windows by 2025, those had been replaced with the one over one vinyl windows.

Um the violation contained um you know an additional inspection from neighborhood services that had uh the locations noted of the other vinyl window replacement.

I believe it was about nine or ten windows in all, um eight windows, excuse me.

Eight um so uh staff is you know per the preserve preservation guidelines.

Um staff is recommending denial of the vinyl windows um and that they're replaced with solid wood sash nine over one windows that match the profile of the historic windows.

Okay, sure.

Yes, I'm a little confused procedurally here.

You mean this came before us once before for retroactive COA?

Correct.

And I can tell you denied by HPC.

And there was no appeal, correct.

And what's the basis to do this over again?

Because people keep coming back every year until what they catch a break, or I'm not sure I understand how many times one can resubmit a COA that's been denied for the same work.

I never received a letter that gave me the rights to appeal, and I informed them of that, and they had the record that it was never received by me through certified mail.

I have I never received it.

When I missed that appointment uh last year, my cousin had just been murdered, and the funeral was that weekend, and his brother was murdered, and that funeral was today, and I missed it to make sure that I'm here because I don't I I know this is important, but this is the reality of what people deal with, right?

So I did not get that letter, and so I did not know that a decision was made.

And so I've been kind of fighting the last year to try to figure this out.

I'm not even I understand.

I went with a reputable company.

I asked, did they do permits?

They did not do that.

I did universal windows.

You know, like I did everything I thought a window fell out.

I had to get it replaced.

There was nothing else to do before the winter came.

Or we would have been freezing.

It was a priority.

I called a company that I believed was going to do what they were supposed to do.

You know, like I don't know anything about windows.

I don't know anything about historic preservation.

I'm just a homeowner.

I've been in the house 16 years.

I've never had any issues until now.

So let's start from the beginning.

When you bought the house 16 years ago, you knew that it wasn't historic district.

I bought it, yep.

Yes.

Okay.

And you've done any other work where you've had to come before us.

It's horrible.

No.

Never.

It's just now the windows.

Yes.

And over the last 16 years, the first X number of windows.

Eight, you said or something.

I did eight.

I have 28 windows.

I did the eight most critical.

The wood was rotting really bad.

Yeah, no.

One of them was like the pressure was pushing the windows out.

That's the worst.

But I'm putting up, but I knew you were in a historic neighborhood with a historic home.

Yeah.

And did you think about calling to get some guidance?

I did not staff that calling a reputable company would do that for me, right?

Like I don't I have no idea.

We've heard the story.

I mean, it's it's not sort of tragic.

Have you considered calling universal windows for release?

And what did they say?

Really?

Exactly.

Um I um even try emailing them.

Like they don't have really a contact, like their contact us as sales.

Um, and so I've called, and I'm not giving up on it.

It's just like I need I need real time.

Like, I'm paying for these windows.

These are not windows that were cheap.

You know, like I can't just replace them again.

Right still paying for these windows?

I am.

I just got them in 24.

I think you need to see the attorney because I you I I would one might recommend stop paying them.

And then let them take action, and then you counterclaim for the cost of doing these windows correctly.

That sounds good, but I don't want a bill on my credit and delinquency, right?

Like, I mean, this workmanship is horrible.

Horrible.

Okay.

I demand my money back for this for this window.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

And and that is where the tragedy is, is that by calling up this office, the staff would have worked walk walked you through this.

And and now, I mean again, you and lots and lots of other families have come with the same, just didn't know.

Just didn't know.

I thought we were going to be doing the right thing, and it's winter and etc.

You know, so it's not intentional.

You knew you were in a historic home.

Is there any way at this point that the staff can help to find you someplace when you're able to to replace these windows properly?

Sure, we've got lists of manufacturers and contractors that have done successful projects in the city.

Yeah.

And there's there's other windows, aren't there that are needing repair?

They all will need replacement.

Yeah, that's what I so you tell me.

It's a tough one.

Uh I would highly recommend keeping the pressure on universal windows, they're a big outfit.

And um, and I think I personally believe they need to eat the expense of us for not doing they should know better.

They do work in the city.

Any contractor who does work in the city should know about historic preservation on TV.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Violating my free anybody advertising on TV, I will never use for any work.

Yeah.

Of any kind.

What did he say?

Any contractors who advertise on TV, I would never use for anything.

For no other reason, the cost of that advertising is incorporated into your price.

Right.

And so you're paying for very expensive advertisements.

And it was very rude of you to say that.

Like, I am a I'm a consumer.

What where else am I gonna find people besides what I see?

Just because you know doesn't mean like you you know the history, you know what to use.

I don't know what to use to tell me to use somebody on TV, not to use somebody on TV.

This staff would advise you and tell you where to find out.

It's a mistake.

It's it's it's it's it's you know, we feel your pain.

Yeah.

Well, I guess I'll watch clearly he doesn't.

That's not true.

No, no, because he lives in a historic neighborhood and he but that comment to me.

Yeah, I've gone through all this.

I've gone through all this.

You have, but I haven't.

I haven't.

I haven't.

I have a disabled husband.

I I've been through chemo treatment in the last four years.

I went like I have a lot going on.

This is not like something that's a small deal to me.

It is a big deal to me.

This is my house that I live in, that I choose chose to make a home for my family for 16 years.

I tr I'm trying to I'd like to maybe ask a question of the staff now.

Yeah.

What's the best step forward here?

And I will suggest that somehow accepting it is is not gonna fix for instance if we deny it, which we should because it violates the guidelines.

You can then move forward addressing and contacting the window company saying I am denied, these are unacceptable.

If we don't, then all you can do is go to the window company and say, could you please put in these other ones?

And I think as we started, didn't you say you were looking for a path of appeal?

I yes.

Right, okay.

So we have to deny it.

There's no appealing if we accept what she has, right?

I guess all this said, it seems that the best path now is to deny it.

Right.

That's gonna give her only kind of legal positioning on this matter.

Right.

So I'm gonna keep getting fined, keep getting you know, like the the appeal pro uh uh the appeals board what every three weeks, once a month, or what every three weeks just the council so you're on a on a three-week or four-week timetable other than August break coming up, and we've done this in the past where we you you you can freeze uh the fines, right?

Till the appeal.

In other words, so she's not gonna be a good thing.

Yeah, I mean, I believe if it's going through the process, right?

They wouldn't I I can mean I can't speak for DNS, but I don't know that they would issue reinspections if it's going through.

Are there any orders issued in this?

There was in April of last year, so that's what brought it to our attention.

But Andrew, so d did you come here last year?

I didn't.

Okay.

Because the last year my cousin was murdered.

So you did not come.

I missed the claimage.

And so they denied it while I was and then the appeal that you never got.

I never received okay.

Fair enough.

I never received anything until I got the letter basically saying that I was in violation and and owed because it was denied.

Like I got that from DNS.

And I'm like, what do you mean a denial?

Then I I reached out, I asked about an appeal process, and they were like, You missed your opportunity to appeal, and I'm like, how?

Didn't receive anything.

Uh-huh.

And so they they sent, I don't know who they is, like you know, DNS or or or the historic preservation, but they sent me a email with like a tracking of the thing, and it clearly said that I didn't receive it, and then I didn't get anything back when I said, Well, this clearly says that I didn't receive it.

Like, how did I like why didn't I get a chance to appeal?

And then the person didn't reply again.

So if there's a denial here, and then it goes through a letter, an appeal process, a letter will be sent to her.

Correct.

An appeal letter.

And when does the the fine stop?

That's what I want to know.

When when does that how do we prevent that from building up while she's attempting to try to like how do I get to sign?

Yeah.

Andrew, maybe you could.

Yeah, I mean, we could be in touch with uh I can reach out to the inspector on this file, and I'm not sure if it's on monthly reinspection right now or where the process is and that, but I I'd be happy to follow up with them.

Let them know where where she's at in the process.

And to try to stop the fines.

I mean, it sounds as if if given enough time that you would work on this.

I would.

Yeah.

It's not that I don't want to work on it.

Like I said, I'm I'm dealing with a company who's hard to reach.

I I you know, like I don't mind.

I I understand what they're saying that it's not approved.

But I need means to be able to correct it.

I need time, like I'm still paying for these windows.

I I can't just it was 12 grand for eight windows.

I don't have 12 grand at the wrong way.

Not even throwing it away, but to just redo again.

So my colleagues over here, what what would you you suggest for somebody who is really sounds like she's attempting to try to make this right?

Without it costing.

But it took a whole year to get here.

And so what's been going on for that whole year?

You know, I didn't we had a meeting scheduled last year to hear this and you didn't show up.

Yeah.

Understand.

Yeah.

But why didn't you then follow up and find out what happened at the meeting?

You know?

And it's a whole year.

That's a long time.

It's not a month, it's not six months, it's a whole year.

So we have no choice right now.

Okay, but we have no choice.

We really don't.

I mean, that's the law, and that's what we have to do.

We have to follow it.

I'm sorry.

Yeah.

Options for other people that put in vinyl windows and then obviously.

And and then have had um there, you know, with the intention of replacing them with the proper windows, but have been in a mothball status, right, to prevent ongoing fines, and those that mothball status can last a year, two years.

Right.

We reviewed.

We had a church on mothball for seven years before they rolled off.

So what about using that strategy?

And and again, Patty, I'm hearing what you're saying in terms of everyone else.

I mean, it would there it there is total intent here to treat everybody right the same in terms of the regulations that we are forced to abide by the But let's I'm sorry, go ahead.

I don't think she wants to replace these windows with the correct window.

She wants to leave things as is.

I didn't say that.

That isn't what I said.

I said, or I need more time.

Okay.

Well, time we can give you.

Yes.

We can do it.

I understand that you want them out.

I am fine with that.

Which is a mothball case then.

But the time, I can't just do that and keep getting fines and keep getting you know what I mean?

Okay.

And can we retroactively mothball a uh to alleviate fines that have been?

We've we've converted applications to mothballs all the time.

Okay.

Uh retroactive is usually the issue with them anyway.

So how much time do you think you need because uh uh what Patty said uh is correct in turn in terms of uh what you've explained and what the rules and the regulations are, etc.

How much time do you need?

What I'm gonna just uh Nick Um I just wondering because that would be a very ambiguous uh question for you to answer because there's a lot of X factors.

Yeah, does it make sense for us to give her enough time in order to go at the window company and try to receive some sort of uh resolution on their side?

And then that way, if you know if she can't resolve that, let's say within a year, we give her more time as long as she's actively pursuing that route.

Right, six months.

I make the motion for under a mothball for six months, she comes back in six months and we'll see where things stand.

Excellent.

Right.

And that would stay any of the fees and prevent that from your your universal windows.

Yeah.

Something needs to occur there.

Okay.

Yeah, I I agree.

Yeah, I would put pressure on them.

Okay, so we have a motion for uh mothballing this matter.

Um and we have a second.

All in favor.

Aye.

Aye.

Any opposed?

Okay.

All right.

Motion carries.

We've got a mothball.

There we go.

All right.

Moving on to item six, uh 260252 resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for a front porch reconstruction and expansion and landscaping improvements at 3067 North Lake Drive in the North Lake Drive Historic District for Gilbert Southwall.

Great.

Thank you.

Um it's a George Schley and Sons House, uh 1929 Mediterranean revival.

Um the entry or the the stairs uh and walkway up to the house um are existing.

Uh the porch is is back to the right of the front door, um, but it does have mature landscaping in front of it, so it's not really visible um that well in the in the street view image.

Um but it's a um the proposal today is a fairly extensive landscaping project with uh with a porch component as well.

Um so these are existing conditions on the front porch.

Um it's it's separating from the house.

Um it's got foundation issues, it's uh there's a a large uh number of uh cracking and mortar uh failures.

Um so the applicant would like to reconstruct the porch in natural stone, uh reuse the concrete uh ballusters if feasible or replace those in kind um and also enlarge it by about 30 square feet.

So he would be bumping it out approximately three feet, and then the porch is um ten feet in depth or ten feet uh in length.

Um so you can see the the expanded porch um that they're proposing on the left.

Um other front yard um landscaping improvements include removing the concrete walkways and replacing with the natural stone, um rebuilding the front pillars in natural stone.

Uh and then so that's uh the front yard proposals.

Um this would be the porch reconstructed, you know, more or less in the exact same design, just uh an enlarged version.

Um and again reusing the the stone uh spindles if possible.

So this is uh a version of the expanded front porch.

Um there would be a landscape bed again in front of the the reconstructed um front porch, so it would be uh not um not very noticeable that it would be enlarged, you know, from just a regular passerby from the right of way.

Uh some images from the rear is showing um the concrete patio is uh settling and cracking in a number of areas.

Um there's an existing wood pergola.

Um there are some stone uh seat walls that I didn't include here, but um, those would be rebuilt.

I'll show you the plans for the rear include uh four by eight wood pergola, which wouldn't it's essentially I believe in the exact same location that it presently is, um not visible from the right of way.

Um it would be removing the concrete and replacing with natural stone for the patio, uh a natural stone clad electric fireplace installation, and then um taking down the existing border walls and and rebuilding those in a natural stone seat wall.

Um staff doesn't have any issues with uh the landscaping or the enlarged porch.

We've we've done porch enlargements in in North Point and in um the North Lake Drive um historic districts in the past.

Um so staff's recommending approval with the conditions, and the condition is just our standard masonry condition okay, great.

And we have a representative from the homeowner here.

Yes, yeah.

Oh I'm Gil Southwell, I'm the homeowner.

And I provided um the overall landscaping plan, the elevation, and then the special detail on the enlargement of the front porch.

Um I just retired, so I've got two grandchildren.

I'm spending more light time at home.

So we do use the front porch quite a lot in the summer.

Uh we have obviously the pleasure of looking at Lake Park.

But when we have friends over, it's a little too small.

And in the backyard, um our garage kind of is right next to the patio area, and we wanted to get some Arbor Vida.

I currently have pots there, but we'd like to put a permanent plander in there to do some screening, make sure the kids stay in the backyard and don't run all over.

All right.

Yes, sure.

Go ahead.

Who's doing the work for you in the porch?

Uh Oscar Munow's construction.

And landscaping, yeah.

Oscar's done some stuff on the east side.

Yeah.

Okay.

Any other questions from commissioners?

I'll move.

All right.

And do we have a second?

Second.

All right.

All in favor?

Aye.

Aye.

Any opposed?

All right, great.

Motion carries.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Uh item number seven, 260-264.

Resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for demolition of a garage at 2386 North Terrace Avenue in the North Point Historic District.

Uh for Aaron Dekoski.

All right.

Here we uh here we go.

Um the garage is uh yes.

Thank you, Andrew.

Um this garage is clearly not as in bad of condition as the last one, but it is uh not in a great state of repair, nor is it of any architectural consequence.

Um presently entirely behind the house.

Uh you have to be on the property or a neighboring property to be able to see it.

Um it's an L-shaped driveway, as you can kind of gather from that left photo.

It's completely tucked behind the house.

Um couldn't find a date of construction for it, but it's certainly several decades younger than the 1905 house.

Whose garage?

So your house is is the one with the gray stone?

Yes.

And the garage belongs to your house.

Yet it looks like it's about two inches away from the red brick house.

Yes.

That's uh their window, in fact.

Oh, the uh that's actually a garage, uh a red brick garage.

Oh, okay.

So I um said it's not actually the house.

It's a uh it's one of two garages.

Uh we're up against wall the back side of Wall Avenue here, so they have that neighbor has two of these garages.

Okay.

Um fair condition, architecturally underwhelming, and gets it out of the neighbor's hair.

Um staff is recommending demo approval.

Okay.

Uh and the next item is the build back.

So do we have any comments from commissioners on the demo?

All right.

Can you can you make those photos larger by any chance?

Um that's some of the photos are in the on your yeah.

Pile here.

No, I if you if you if you can't and it Yeah.

I'm just curious.

What's that strange uh arrangement between your porch railing and the roof of the porch?

Looks like a giant cat tree.

Yeah, that's that's gone now.

Okay.

Um what was that?

I bore the I'm more curious, anything else?

I don't know.

I think it was a cat tree.

It was a cat.

All right.

Okay, I got it.

Uh thank you.

Okay.

Anything else on the demo?

Thank you.

Thanks, Dan.

I tried.

No, no, all right.

Uh do I have a motion on the demo?

Move second.

Second.

All in favor?

Aye.

Any opposed?

No.

Okay.

We'll move on then to the build back.

This is item 8, 260265 resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for construction of a sunken garage at 2386 North Terrace Avenue in the North Point North Historic District for Aaron Dakoski.

All right.

So uh this new garage will be placed in the midst of the existing driveway.

It is proposed as 14 feet deep, 11 feet wide, with a height above grade of 3 foot 10.

Um here I put in for as the first image the uh rendering showing ramping down, uh ramping down to the garage.

So uh I thought I'd open with this part.

Our guidelines only strictly prohibit tucking a garage under the house from the front.

This is using the existing driveway.

Um and ramps down into a typical flat roof structured garage.

The idea is unique but not untenable.

The design is largely adequate, but just needs a little uh stone tri some trim detailing on the street facade.

Um here is the ground plan of the uh underground level.

It will uh the ramp starts at about slightly to uh to the rear of the front of the porch, goes underground, and then once underground connects back inside the house.

It's about uh two feet off the house.

Here's an uh other uh other rendering showing uh different directions.

Um staff does believe there are some zoning pro uh there are some zoning problems here with uh setbacks and lot coverage.

Um if HPC wants to comment on that, they can.

Um generally the Board of Zoning Appeals takes uh granting of a COA as your implicit endorsement of uh uh of an appearan zoning appeal even if we have these renderings in the files?

Yes.

Okay.

What's the uh structure of the first floor?

What's that gonna be?

Um they're uh they are going to do their best to the garage.

What's that gonna be?

It'll be grass, like a green roof.

But what's the structure?

Oh, uh they have indicated they're doing to do their best to match the stone of the house.

So it will be a natural stone garage.

But three feet above grade.

Yes.

The exposed entryway will be a uh stone structure with a flat roof.

The everything underground will uh have span crete with sod grass above it.

Okay, you're gonna place the planks on it.

Yes.

Okay.

And then when all the water goes down from the driveway into the garage, are you collecting it on a on a drain outside of the garage door?

Um we have two different trough drains.

One just before you enter the garage at the bottom of that ramp, and then we're ramping a little bit steeper once we're in the garage, safer to get a little steeper pitch.

And at the bottom of that pitch, we will have another drain, and of course, a sump crock inside of that.

You're the contractor?

Uh architect and contractor, yes.

All right.

You have the crock in there.

Your name, please.

And you're gonna get that out to the street.

Yes.

Can you tell me your name, please?

Jim Pitson.

Okay, thank you.

Um, and and then you guys were suggesting maybe some zoning issues they have to deal with side yard setbacks and so forth.

Uh at least on the lot coverage, it's certainly a wash with the existing garage.

It's not going to increase any.

Right.

They were probably already over at baseline.

Right.

And then the side yard.

They might be infringing on that, but they'd have to get the neighbor to say okay.

Um there wouldn't there wouldn't be uh it wouldn't be crossing the property line or it's just a setback issue because the side setbacks are very weird in this in the RS5.

Very, very strange spot.

Yeah.

The garage actually currently is like up against the garage that is meant for a wall avenue.

Yeah.

That looks like it's it's it's less it's less than a foot off of a wall avenue garage.

Yes, yeah.

And and that's where it's going to go again.

No.

It's it's being moved.

So there it'll be I think five feet away from that garage.

But in that same vicinity, because it's I mean, I was sort of wondering what that it is, it curves around.

So it's underground, yes.

Huh?

Underground, it curves around.

You won't you will not see it um in the backyard anymore.

So we're eliminating the L-shaped drive.

I see.

And the structure and creating just an entry garage, uh, the 10 by 14 to get into the underground garage.

So the only exposure will be on the side of the uh house to enter into the underground portion.

And then visually it will look exactly as it does now with the driveway, except it will just be grass.

That will be the only visual difference from the outside.

And it'll be enough for what more than two cars?

Basically two cars.

The issue was with the angles, getting a second car in straight wasn't possible, so it has to come in at an angle.

Uh this is a big project.

Uh yes, it's very unique.

Why do you want to go underground?

To have a backyard.

Have grass.

It's all concrete.

But you have a nice front yard.

Yeah.

Yeah.

300,000 underground.

I don't know about that, but they are doing pre-cast planks.

Not an excavation.

You set precast planks.

Yes.

Right.

Yeah.

So everything uh underground will have precast planks for the uh roof structure with grass over the top of it.

Right.

Um I did also meet with the uh city planner uh for review on this, and there are a couple issues with the setbacks where because it's underground, uh it takes on uh a different um restrictions.

Um also the fact that we don't attach it above ground takes on a different restriction as well, too, because now it's a accessory building.

So it's a it's a little unique, even though we are attached underground to the house.

Um it's not attached above ground.

So underground, you're going to have it where you can walk into your house.

Into the basement, yeah.

To the basement.

Yeah.

This is a single family, isn't it?

Uh-huh.

Very interesting.

Okay.

Any commissioners have any other questions?

I do have a few more things here.

Oh, okay.

Go ahead.

Uh one second.

So uh staff's uh supportive of the idea, but does think the front of the garage needs a little more detailing.

Um had the intern draft some things up because she draws better than I better than uh either Andrew or I.

Um these are just concepts, like some raised molding around the door, maybe a pent roof uh over the entrance, but it needs something to define the top define the top of the structure.

I'm happy to work with them on whatever whether they adopt one of these or something entirely different.

Can I um have exhibit B?

This is something entirely different.

And the only reason the reason I did this is it takes on the characteristics of the existing house.

And then above at the at the top of the wall, I'm matching matching the wall caps that they already have existing on the porch uh for the stone detail.

So I'm um I'm kind of going off of precedence of the home with the cap and the uh stone header over the uh the overhead door that gives a bigger picture.

Oh yeah, introducing that to match what's at the windows.

And then there's the cap at the uh porch, and I have that cap around the perimeter.

Um I do like the detail that you created.

It's just there there's no precedence on the home for right now.

This seems very similar to the house mic by you, Patty.

That just sold that a similar sink and garage.

And that's very nice neat on with similar details to match the house.

So in the winter, in terms of going up and down the whole hill now?

Uh that was the uh uh part of the uniqueness of it.

Um we use the existing grade to our advantage where the driveway right now does pitch up quite a bit, and we are creating a little bit more of a casual off the sidewalk, and then we don't have to go as steep or as deep.

Um and then it's also give and take of how deep do we want to go into the ground so you don't see the garage.

We wanted to have some exposure so it looks like a carriage style, uh carriage house instead of something that's just barely protruding out of the ground.

Yeah, so it was a little give and take with the pitch um safety uh and aesthetics.

But that grassy area will give you a back area.

Is that what you're saying?

Yeah, yeah, because right now the backyard is just fully concrete, and then the garage that isn't really much of a garage.

So this would give essentially a backyard with grass and your n does your your neighbors everybody's happy.

I don't know.

I I mean uh the people I've spoken with haven't indicated any objections.

But it's very interesting.

Yeah, yeah.

All right.

Do you have anything left on this uh presentation?

Just work uh work with them on trim.

I think what he presented is fine option too.

Perfect.

Okay, any other questions?

No.

Do I have a motion?

So move all right.

Uh and a second?

Second.

All right, all in favor?

I'm not sure.

All right.

Carries.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yeah.

Uh moving on to item nine.

Does it have to be sprinkler?

No.

Uh not with residential.

Not residential.

All right.

Item nine, 260273 resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for an accessory building at 210 West Brown Street in the Brewers Hill Historic District for Kyle Stevens.

Okay.

So the subject property is a uh circa night uh 1888 Queen Anne Cottage shown here.

Here's an aerial image of the subject property, which is on the left abutting the alley, um, and then the survey that they provided of uh existing conditions.

So they do have a garage uh that is off the alley.

There was previously a 1920s um garage located back there that HPC allowed to be uh demoed in 2017.

Um so now there's just an existing concrete slab where that former garage is located.

Um you can see make note um north of the property, it's just um the backyard is fenced here, and it's just a uh gravel parking lot, so there are no neighbors immediately to the north.

Um this is uh image of the existing conditions of the backyard.

So there's the garage facing the alley uh and a wood pergola, and then the concrete um the concrete slab is uh closer, closer to the uh photographer in this image.

Okay, thanks.

Um so they're proposing adding a uh 20 foot four inch by 19 foot detached accessory building um that would be used as a golf simulator and also have a dry bar component on the inside, um, and then there would be uh a um concrete patio and located in front of the um overhead door of the proposed accessory building.

Um the building would be uh clad in wood clabber to match um the residence with wood trim, um dimensional shingles um to match those on the primary residents, um the window and personnel door and overhead door um materials and uh and final designs weren't specified at the time that staff report was completed.

Um but staff uh if HPC allows would would like to work with the applicant on finalizing those details as long as they're um you know no vinyl just go with a steel or fiberglass um overhead door and um clad wood or um or fiberglass windows, um so it would be one uh overhead door and then the three fixed windows on on either of the um side facades um staff has no real concerns with with the um with the accessory building.

Um there are conditions mostly um you know our standard conditions just referring to materials and working with staff and then um typical for new garages that we also include um adding a a water table and a and a freeze board uh to to the accessory building as well, um just uh for some minor architectural details to to spruce it up a little bit, but um otherwise staff recommends approval with conditions.

Okay, so the existing garage stays, I assume it does.

So this is okay.

So this looks like a mini garage basically.

So yeah.

This would technically be just heated and HVAC and electrical electric, yeah.

So it's almost habitable.

Almost no water though, no plumbing.

Uh okay.

So let me ask you, is is this have to do with this accessory buildings that the new legislation no?

I don't think this is why I asked about the plumbing, yes.

Oh dwelling units.

Oh, so this is not considered um an accessory building in terms of the new legislation.

Accessory dwelling unit is what the I see, and it makes it not dwelling because there's because there's no plumbing.

Correct.

Probably.

Is that right?

That's correct.

I I would think you would have to put it in a toilet to call it an accessory dwelling.

And you have to have independent sewer and so there's a lot that goes into it.

So I'll applaud you.

I thought that this was you were going to be the new experiment for the for this new piece of legislation.

But you are this is for a golf simulator.

Is that what you said?

Primarily, yeah.

I mean, just also additional recreation space.

I mean, we don't have any big areas in the in the house, it's a 1897 home, I think.

So even just for entertaining outside, you can open that door up and you have the patio out front.

So very nice.

All right.

This is America.

So any other comments?

All right.

Do we have a motion on this one?

Yes.

All right.

All right, do we have a second?

A second.

All right.

All in favor.

Aye.

All right.

Thank you.

The 1200 black or 29.

27.

Two one.

The American dream looks different for everybody.

Something else on a white picket fence.

Someone a golf simulator.

All right.

Uh item 10, 260161 resolution relating to a certificate of appropriateness for the infill of one door at 2665 North Lake Drive in the North Point North Historic District for Anna Tims and Craig Rigby.

And the applicants um indicated they wouldn't be able to make this meeting, so they're requesting a lot of.

So uh proposing a hold to the call of the chair.

Do we have a motion on that?

So move.

All right, second.

Second.

All right.

Uh all in favor?

Aye.

All right, that's held over.

Now we've got the following files for staff approved certificate of appropriatenesses.

Items 11 through 27.

Um we have a motion to approve these.

Some of the second.

All right.

All in favor?

Aye.

All right.

Moving on to the review and approval of the minutes from the last meeting.

Everyone's had a chance to review those.

Do we have a motion to approve last meeting's minutes?

So moved.

All right.

Second.

Second.

All in favor?

Aye.

All right.

Item 29, item 260137 resolution amending the bylaws of the historic preservation commission relating to rear landscaping.

All right.

So we had this uh policy for uh in writing for almost exactly one year before uh accidentally deleting it.

Um there was an overhaul of the bylaws that just like wiped everything out, and this got thrown out accidentally.

Um this is it's no real change.

We've been mostly acting as if it's still there because it was not deleted intentionally, but we're putting it back exactly exact same language.

Uh landscaping fixtures changes to existing landscape of rear yards as defined in the code of ordinances.

Uh this is the key part of the very specific language of rear yard.

You basically don't have a rear yard unless you're a mid-block lot.

The way the zoning defines it.

So that's why we defined it that way.

If you're on a uh corner lot, HBC still gets to look at absolutely everything because you do see it.

The backyard of a mid-block lot, do we really care that much?

No one sees it.

That's the idea here.

We're still going to review major structures like garages and that, but we don't need to be reviewing planting bed uh beds in the backyards of mid block lots.

Sure.

Okay.

Um all right.

Any questions on this matter?

All right.

Do we have a motion to uh uh amend our bylaws as per this uh rear landscaping recommendation here?

Move.

All right.

Uh do we have a second?

Second.

All in favor?

Aye.

Aye.

All right, moving on to item 30 updates and announcements.

Okay.

I gave you all a handout at the beginning of the meeting.

Reminder again, we have formal dates uh for the Wisconsin Local History and Historic Preservation Conference, October 14th and to 16th in downtown Milwaukee.

Um they actually follow they followed my suggestion, and there will be uh extensive uh uh detail in-depth tours of Central Library, amongst other things.

Umference to, especially when uh we're hosting it three blocks from them.

Um you should all attend.

It's usually very cost effective, and obviously no lodging expenses for any of you.

What's the cost?

Uh we don't have that yet.

Uh it's like 175 dollars for the two-day Thursday 125.

Okay, here we go.

Yeah, I'll unless we're students.

Yeah.

I used to I'm gonna enroll in UWM.

Alderman, this is a perfect use of your tuition reimbursement.

Oh, really?

Yeah.

I'm gonna call it there.

Yeah, register at UW.

Um since there's no travel expense with it, it's it's straight up covered.

You just have to basically send DER the name badge they gave it, give you when you actually show up to prove you attended.

And the rest of us uh you're unfortunately on your own.

Uh there is a discount if you are Wisconsin Historical Society member.

And are we hosting any kind of event?

We are not.

It's a little late now.

Well, I don't know.

We can uh we can follow up uh with you tomorrow if you uh want to pursue adding something to their agenda.

Um Thursday at the PAPS Mansion.

Okay, happy hour.

And then the thing ends at 2 30 p.m.

on Friday, so there is no Friday evening.

So the Thursday evening would be what you're talking about.

That would be the opportunity.

No, they have no Wednesday.

No, they have no Wednesday, they have an arrival thing at five to six social hour in America's Black Holocaust Museum.

Okay.

Well, that's historic.

No, it's not a brand new building.

I know.

Right.

Why are we doing it there?

Well, because it's next to Schusters.

Wow, walk a block over to Schuster's.

They do have a thrive on that one, you know.

Sorry about it.

They have that kind of public first floor lobby.

Yeah, that's a very nice place.

Then you're talking about Thrive On.

That's what we're showing up.

Away from home.

Yeah, yeah, it would be great.

That would be nice.

And subject Greater Milwaukee committee would love it.

I mean, that you're right.

It's a beautiful lobby area that Thrive On.

Yeah.

Go.

Okay.

Anything else on updates and announcements?

No.

Does this okay?

I have something.

I don't know if this is the proper point, but I know in the past we did a or recommended a um an ordinance change that basically changed the value of roofs before they were or like if it if it accounted for a certain percentage of the home's value, right?

And that cut and the common council eventually had to pass that, correct?

No, we didn't.

We did it as a bylaws we did that as a bylaw thing.

Just yards thing so it can bypass the council.

Is there any mechanism that we can use as a commission?

You know, we saw um I forget the homeowner's name, but come in and she had a contractor that um installed something that was not in accordance.

Is there anything we could do as far as recommending to the common council or you know, to give to give some sort of exposure to contractors who put things in place on historic properties that without going through the proper uh permitting process?

I mean, are our contractors at risk now if they don't pull a building permit and do work?

And so shouldn't they be at risk if they do work on a historic preservation or a historic property without pulling a historic preservation COA?

Understanding that the homeowner is ultimately responsible, but I I just feel if a contractor is selling a job at a homeowner's doorstep, they should assume that risk.

Yeah, you're what was there a COA area procured on that Sherman Boulevard?

Couldn't have couldn't have so the contract but they had a they got a did they get a building permit for those three windows?

Well my understanding is permit permits are only required on historic properties.

Yeah, window permits are only required on historic properties.

Right.

So they should have gotten one and they didn't get a permit.

Well, that's that's their exposure.

Yeah, but there are certain like a roof replacement, for example.

Normally in the city you don't need a permit to get a roof replacement.

But if it's a historic, then you don't necessarily need a permit, but you need a COA, which is different from a building permit.

You don't go into the citizen access to go get a COA.

You only get it through staff, right?

Through submitting that the form online.

Um my the only thing I'm aware of right now is uh would be on it would be on the homeowner to make a license complaint.

Right.

And but would there even be a grounds for a license complaint?

Would the contract is it is it incumbent on the contractor now per city ordinance to research if there's a historic per, you know, if the facility is a historic facility or the building's a historic building.

Well, it's just like this woman that came down here.

A universal universal windows, yeah.

Cham on them.

Right.

Agreed.

In my opinion, and and and you're asking can we make a suggestion to the common council to adopt an ordinance that would give contractors who do work on a historic property uh exposure if they do not procure the COA, then they have to mitigate.

So let me ask this question.

So as an architect and a general contractor, right?

If you were to somebody says, hey, I want to renovate a house and you go and do the work without a permit.

What is the penalty?

What's the liability and who's liable at that point?

I think they have the authority to charge you four times the permit fee.

Yeah, it's exactly so.

This is me going someone's you see what I'm saying, like there is some professional liability there by not acting in accordance to the rules and regulations of the city, and that does hurt you as a professional.

And a lot of times I'm um actually my structure engineer is part of the lawsuit where they're even trying to, you know.

You cut out there, Nick, but I think not only do you have to pay four times the uh permit fee, you have to rip open walls.

If they didn't inspect, do the in-wall inspection, the above ceiling inspection.

You're gonna have to rip open walls.

I've run into this as a general contractor myself.

You have to rip open walls, the inspector's got to come in and inspect it.

You've got to bring anything up to code that's not up to code.

I mean, it's not just you pay the penalty fee.

You also have to an inspector has to put eyes on it unless you've taken in-wall photos or something like that that the inspector will accept.

So correct.

And in my opinion, and I think we all probably share this opinion as we see plenty of people come in with contractors that didn't do their due diligence.

I would just like to put this before the common council as the commission, saying we see these poor people come in all the time and they've been abused by these contractors who some of these are big outfits too.

Now and um that make plenty of money going door to door selling windows to people, and uh I just think there should be some liability or some professional liability or exposure, just as if they went forward and uh put in a new bathroom in an attic and didn't permits, didn't pull permits, right?

And and Bob, what do you think about that?

Because I think it's we've heard so many stories.

It's worth exploring around more vulnerable.

I'm I think it is really painful, yeah.

And I would love to be able to see something like that that the onus falls on a piece of it falls on the contractors.

Agree.

Is that possible?

We can explore that.

Possible, yeah, it's possible through the DNS fine structure.

That would have to be the approach.

And it would be increasing the penalty for not pulling permits where historic COAs are required as well.

Yes, and it's maybe the maybe a ten times the permit fee.

Yeah.

Uh it's not without precedent.

There is a state statute that act that fine for uh sandblasting of historic buildings that fines both the owner and the contractor.

Okay.

State statute?

Yes.

No kidding.

It's only a it's only for uh uh abrasive blasting of historic buildings.

That's the only situation where I'm aware it you can find both, but it has been done as a statute.

Well, I would sure love to get that pulled because that is a beginning.

Because it's the windows that are the common problem, yes, yes, absolutely.

Yes, and it could just be an a an additional piece to where the fault lies.

Siding too, right?

You don't typically need a permit for siding, you don't typically need a permit for roofing.

Bigger job though the siding, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

Um well, since this is kind of my uh windows are probably slipped in in two days, right?

Oh, yeah, absolutely.

We did actually several years before you joined us, Jordan.

We did mothball someone while they uh while they sued their uh the the seller for failure to disclose historic status.

Do you know if there's ever been a resolve in terms of a case like that where the contractor really is liable and and then pays up or um that would be a question for DNS?

How about a highly sophisticated owner?

Yeah, and I think right now if they do it, they just hire lawyers and exactly exactly yeah, yeah.

If they do it now, they're doing it just to save face.

So if we're saying is um it's often happens where there are families that are more vulnerable.

Yes, they don't know where to turn.

And they also probably don't have the extra monies or time to start devoting to lawyering, right?

Yeah, 100% right.

And so it's like then what's the point of it?

Yeah, you you know what I mean?

Yeah, if you spend 12,000 getting burned on windows, to put that onus back on the bad people, yeah.

Well, uh just want to put on everybody's radar.

Maybe I can work with staff to put together some language on what to send to the common council, or maybe you know, Alderman Bauman.

I can I correspond with you too on something that might work.

But um yeah, it's something I've seen come and go from this uh for my short time here on this commission, and I'm like, how are these contractors like not held to account on this?

This poor lady spending twelve thousand dollars.

And she and she and dozens other yeah that we have heard she spent twelve thousand dollars on those eight windows.

And she still has more windows.

And yeah, I totally get it.

You can't you know she was sort of saying this is not my core business.

I'm I'm trying to take care of my family.

I don't know about this.

Well, and the people of Sherman Boulevard or Grant Boulevard or you know, any of these other historic districts cannot be throwing away twelve grand.

So um yeah, so something I want to work on.

Uh we support that.

Okay, good, good.

So all right.

Um with that being said, uh we have a motion to adjourn today's meeting.

So moved.

So moved.

All right, second?

Second.

Second.

All right, all in favor?

All right.