Four oh one.

So we're calling the meeting to order of the historic preservation commission.

Um I want to thank uh see a lot of staff.

I know there's presentations, Levi, Fernanda, Matthew's probably gonna do the presentation, and Spencer.

And I can't agree.

Christy, thank you.

Um Spencer, can you help us with uh roll call?

Yes, of course.

Uh Commissioner Collum.

Commissioner O'Neill.

Here.

Vice Chair Barlow.

Here.

Chair Rodriguez.

Here.

Commissioner Rath.

Here.

Commissioner Pizel.

Here.

And Commissioner Smith Corvello.

That is all uh our commissioners present.

Um staff, as you mentioned, present are Planning Manager Hill, Principal Planner Sabdo, Principal Planner Roveri, Senior Associate Planner Bugart, and myself recording Secretary Argonbreit.

Information on participating in this meeting and providing public comment, including remotely by Zoom or telephone is on this meeting's agenda, which is online at Monterey.gov forward slash agendas.

Remote commenters will be muted until it is their turn to speak, and a timer will be shown on the screen.

If you are connected on Zoom, the timer is accurate with no delay.

In the chamber, we recommend keeping phones and devices muted to prevent audio interference with the meeting.

So I'm gonna going to open it up for the uh uh public comment for on the consent agenda.

I don't see anybody present in chambers, but I'll ask you, Spencer, if there's anybody online.

All right.

Okay, so do we have I assume the commission had a chance to look at the minutes?

We're going to approve the minutes or look at the minutes for August eleventh, the field trip and October 9th.

Um motion to approve the minutes, any comments?

I was just gonna know if we need to take separate votes on those minutes.

If we need to, I mean it's uh I think all the members of the commission that were at the field trip uh are present today.

Okay.

So we have enough if the rest of the commission wants to abstain from that vote, they can.

And then all right.

But I'll entertain a motion to approve it.

Or um just a motion.

I just have uh one.

Um number four public appearance from August 14th.

I see confirm annual appointments, the chair and vice chair.

Your mic on, Kathy.

Is your mic on?

Yeah.

Sorry.

Oh, sorry.

Okay.

So number four, August 14th.

Why did I put add names?

Yes.

For the chair and vice chair, was that corrected?

Yeah, the minutes were approved with amendments to note the actual commissioners that were named to chair and vice chair, and that was done.

Yes, I I thought we discussed that.

Great.

Thank you.

Sure, I'll set up.

So I believe we have a motion on the table for the field trip minutes from uh Commissioner Smith Cravelo.

Do we have a second?

All second.

Thank you.

Um, all those in favor.

Uh all those against.

And I'm gonna abstain.

Me too.

So two abstentions.

Three abstentions.

Uh Commissioner Pitts.

No.

Okay.

Thank you.

All right.

Awesome.

Thank you.

All right.

So we're gonna move to that motion passes.

We're gonna move to the October 9th minutes.

Uh, is there a motion to approve the minutes?

I'll move to approve the minutes.

Thank you.

Any comments regarding those minutes?

Not is there a second?

A second.

Thank you.

Um, we'll have a vote.

All those in favor.

Aye.

Aye.

All those against any abstentions.

Okay.

One abstention.

Thank you.

All right.

We're going to end the uh consent agenda.

I'm going to call for general public comments on items not in the agenda.

Um, I don't see anybody in chambers.

Has anybody joined Spencer by any chance?

Uh, there are still no attendees online.

I will just remind the public that uh once again information on how to participate remotely by Zoom or telephone is found at Monterey.gov forward slash agendas.

If you are joining by telephone, dial star nine to raise your hand and star six to unmute.

There are still no attendees online.

Thank you.

And I don't see anybody in chambers either.

So now we're gonna move to item number four, which will be to receive a MILS Act inspections informational report by Matthew.

Yes.

I will share my screen.

Thank you.

My name is Matthew Buggert, and I'm a senior associate planner with the City of Monterey's planning division.

Today we're here to talk about the Mills Act inspections that took place for the 2025 annual inspection report cycle at today's HPC meeting.

The overall purpose of this meeting is to provide a brief overview of the Mills Act program, a summary of Mills Act property in the city, uh contract inspection updates, and anticipated next steps.

Some overall background.

And the MILS Act contract is intended to be mutually beneficial between the property owner and the city themselves.

The property owner benefits from a reduction in property taxes intended to offset maintenance costs, and the city has insured the preservation of historic buildings along with the adopted present uh preservation report for the property.

The overall number of Millzact properties at this point is 65 properties.

Uh in 2023, we had four new ones.

There were none in 2024, and this year we've adopted one more.

Uh as mentioned in the previous slide, there were none recorded in 2024.

Um 817 Martin Street went through the contracting process for this year.

Uh, so this is not included in the inspections.

They just contracted to enter into a Mills Act contract.

The property must meet the eligibility requirements for H1 or H2 overlay zoning that is locally significant or statewide significant, sometimes national, but mostly local and state.

And as a note, not all H1 or H2 properties in the city are also in a Mills Act contract with the city.

The property needs to be identified by a qualified architectural historian as significant, and uh the contract must be found to offset the costs of maintaining the resource.

A maintenance schedule is included in each of these approvals.

They varied over time.

These years these days, the maintenance schedules mostly look like this, where there is a uh a general item that they need to maintain, how often they need to maintain it, and then an estimated cost, at least in the contract year.

It's definitely changed over time.

Or that the property owner failed to restore rehabilitate the property.

Often that's included during the initial approval.

Like, yes, this is historic as long as you've done a B C and D to restore it.

The cancellation fee is 12.5% of the current property value.

And there are exceptions for buildings destroyed by natural disasters.

Last year we did a bit of a we did a bit of a trial run for outreach and sent out postcards to all the properties.

This year we implemented it for all the properties and sent out this little mailer with a QR code and a small web address to schedule the inspection.

And we also updated a little bit to gather a little more information in the form of getting everybody's emails and phone numbers for people that uh entered into the contract.

Something that we found from previous ones is there may be a new owner, and trying to get a hold of the new owner was pretty difficult in some cases.

Um this uh lined up with staff schedules, so just slot it into an open space on the calendar, and then the planner could go out and check out the property.

For the outreach, the first round was that mailer.

Uh, 52 properties were inspected through the end of September.

Probably about 40 of them were done through that online scheduler, and the remaining 12 ish were done via either people reaching out for via email or phone number.

So though we were trying to get everybody's contact information, it did not happen 100% across the board.

Uh for round two, that was those properties that we didn't get by the end of September.

Umils and phone calls were made on October 14th to 19th to the known numbers and six additional properties were inspected through the end of October.

For this cycle, there were six properties marked as no inspect.

They either didn't respond to the past two cycles.

Um a couple didn't respond to this one, and one property has since reached out for inspection that we will include in the next cycle.

In general, there are outstanding unfinished tasks at a variety of properties.

The attachment number one to the agenda report includes a big table of the properties and outstanding things that they need to do.

Um, some of them include changing out aluminum windows to wooden windows.

That was included as an original thing that they needed to do, and it has still not happened.

Um, some other items are uh failing retaining walls, um, leaning walls.

Uh there are some pieces of trim that fell off of one property.

Uh like trim along the front entry porch.

Whether they say it fell off, it's not there.

It needs to be put on, and we're hoping that that will happen by the next inspection cycle.

And then a semi-common one is updating knob and tube electrical uh systems to safer ones up to modern code.

Uh there are, I think, two properties still that have it included in their um restoration activities that they need to do that they have still not done.

Um we are exploring ways in which to encourage and or enforce that.

Uh yeah.

And outside of those more structural pieces, the most popular item still left and finished remains the historic plaque.

There's a historic plaque that each of these property owners need to put at the front of the property.

Uh since the vast majority of these properties have been inspected in the past, they're aware that this is outstanding.

And in this year, there are three properties that applied for and were approved for their plaque text.

There's a standard format that we have for people, and we take whatever information they provide, compare it to their uh historic documents, and at least make sure the information's accurate and reflects the adopted umat.

Uh and there's one additional property that's reached out for additional information, not yet applied for the plaque text.

There's four.

Some success stories.

The last time we went through the inspections, um, this this property A48 via Mirada had one little aluminum window in the back, and through a historic permit uh when we came out for the inspection this year, it was nice to see that it had been installed with the historic appropriate um window there.

Uh another piece that you guys may be familiar with.

Uh, last year we noted noted that there would be an upcoming project at 417 Alvarado Street, and they have applied for removing the cap um through historic permit.

This isn't necessarily uh restorative work that was required in their maintenance schedule, but it's an example of the continued improvements that property owners are trying to do through the historic permit process.

Next steps is to complete next year's annual inspections for 2026 and prepare a follow-up inspection report for the end of 2026.

I think the overall takeaways from this program is that we kind of spent the past three years re-establishing the relationship between the city and the property owners because there was probably about a 10-year gap there that we hadn't been going out regularly, and so working out uh enforcement techniques, uh reminders.

I think when you've been out twice and you're noting, hey, this still isn't done, it may be a minor thing, but um just trying to work on getting things done.

That concludes staff's presentation.

And if you have any questions or comments, I am here.

All right, thank you very much.

We're gonna open it up for questions, and I think we have a question right here.

Well, really, Matthew, it's just been wonderful to have these reports, and I suppose everybody on the team is you know supportive of it, Levi and all of you, because for many years it, you know, was one of those things we knew we we needed to have, and we didn't have so I think it's been just great the last two years to actually get these reports.

So I want to uh thank you for your work and congratulate the whole department for getting this big job done.

I I really appreciate it.

I went to a meeting just in a homeowner, you know, they were concerned about they were gathering other um people who had mills act together in the neighborhood and just trying to see what the questions they would have might be, and in you know, just get telling them that the program isn't necessarily secure all the time, you know, people can talk about it, city council, and so they had just a neighborhood concern meeting, and at the meeting, you know, I I acknowledge my role in in on our committee, the HBC.

But I I'm just wondering, in your contact with people, did you find some were unaware of their responsibilities?

They just seemed to be a little bit confused.

Um that they really had a responsibility to continue to follow up on the schedule and and and make those improvements.

Did you find that there were people that just didn't understand it?

Yes.

Okay.

Uh there are two properties in particular I can think of.

I'm not going to name names, but uh, who had purchased the property, didn't know what the Mills Act was, didn't know about the contract, didn't know that they were tied to it.

Um property in particular, uh, there's a divorce.

Uh one of the partners kept the house, had not been in the loop aware in the loop on the things on the property, and whether that's the case or not, they're still required to do what's on the contract because it runs with the land.

Um I will say that's one of one of the problem properties per se.

And I think on the next cycle or two, uh some harder pressure from the city, maybe needed to get some of the improvements done.

Um, meeting that there was uh um mixed understanding of it, you know.

Some people really felt they were kind of knew about it, and other people seemed unsure about some of the points.

And I'm wondering, maybe we should consider at least having uh information about your MILSAC property.

uh some harder pressure from the city maybe needed to get some of the improvements done um i but yes there's a meeting that there was uh um mixed understanding of it you know some people really felt they were kind of knew about it and other people seemed unsure about some of the points and i'm wondering maybe we should consider at least having uh information about your millsac property um you know just to to review this is this is this is what not in but for them particularly about their home but in general here we are the city presenting an informational meeting these are the facts kind of uh a meeting and and maybe other people that are interested could go but just for the the everyone to have a chance to ask questions the fact that this there was a meeting at a private home and there was a need for information made me think maybe that might be an idea we we could provide for them so that we could give them the accurate information they wouldn't be hearing from one another you know they would be hearing there would be a chance to hear from the city in terms of you know the information absolutely I mean today it's been essentially one planner going out talking with them about their Mills act contracts doing a a lap around the property to inspect each of the the items we haven't to date done a like uh a broad informational the outreach meeting to to everyone and this is probably the closest that we've had to to Mills act updates annually well we don't see a large group of people here with burning questions but um I at the meeting there were quite a few questions and I didn't come with information for them and that wasn't my role at the meeting anyway I was just in that community and I happened to be invited.

So I think um with you know maybe next year consider in your letter that goes out we didn't get a copy of that letter but just say for any of you who are interested uh we're planning to have a meeting at the state just for general information and and see what happens you know either people will come and benefit from the information or you'll know that most people have what they need and you can go on but just it the fact that there was such a meeting made me think maybe there is a need to get information out from the city so that it is information that is uh the same you know they don't hear from other people they hear it from you thank you we appreciate that and I'm just on on that note I was just gonna say if any at but obviously anyone has questions about their MILSAC property or the potential of getting in the MILSAC program we we definitely encourage you feel free to send them to the planning office.

We're happy to answer any questions.

Also these meetings are recorded so they don't want to listen to me or one of the other planners drone on about it they're happy Matthew did a great overview of the program itself today so they can they're happy to access this online as well that's a preferable method but so next time you're at one of those meetings feel free to send them our way if you want I was just going to ask Matthew is the owner usually present when you do the inspection because that could be a time obviously I'm sure you do reviews then uh every inspection that is done is done with the property owner or a representative okay there I think there's been one case this year of something came up for them via phone said it was okay for me to go on the property and we just talked over the phone about it but I also met with them previously and it's a pretty straightforward place.

But no every time we speak in person uh I have the the full contract of theirs printed out before I go um and I mean I've I've been uh to at least one of the commissioners places and uh familiar with the clipboard um right yeah that personal very important it's very special that's scary huh thank you Matthew yeah I just want to kind of echo what Jarly was saying about um you know this is great that the city's going back and doing inspections and um also with the postcard the Q the the scanning I think the efficiencies in that are are great taking a lot less staff time and hours so I was really pleased to see that you know you said 40 of them were were responded that way.

42 was a lot of that's that's great.

That was I was glad to hear that um and I think you know we even on the postcard that's sent, you know, there's you could put anything about you know we'll have a meeting about this it'll it'll educate the people going through the process about you know what the next steps are um I think I mentioned this last time but I think also we'll help the commissioners if maybe we could start thinking about having some more uniformity on the maintenance plans.

Um I think I mentioned this last time, but I think also will help the commissioners if maybe we could start thinking about having some more uniformity on the maintenance plans.

I mean, I see stuff from five years to 25 years on here.

And I think it's hard for, I mean, we're making decisions that are gonna have financial, you know, implications for the city, and it's there should be some fairness and uniformity in that.

And then I also think that um, you know, personally, you can't, you know, guarantee you're gonna follow every year with the inspection, what you think you're gonna do when you go through enter through the uh the mills act.

And maybe there should be some sort of process or or something that we could document when there are modifications to that maintenance plan.

Um, you know, I think the homeowners would benefit to have record of that.

You know, I know Matthew, we discussed, you know, from my own property stuff that kind of shifted because you know, we had some issues that came up first rather than what we originally planned for, and something that could just be documented and and put into the record.

Um, I think that would be good for everybody.

Yes, absolutely.

And last year, so this is the the third major round that we've done of this.

And I I do believe that each time it's gotten better where we're identifying more issues and and ways to deal with it.

The last the first time that we did it, we went check mark by check mark everybody's maintenance lists top to bottom, and we done it for the first 10-ish.

And after five or 10, you can already see some of them just have three line items with a couple numbers, no years attached to it, no anything.

It's just saying landscape, roof and general maintenance or something like that.

And then you look at the people that did it in 2019, 2022.

We have Excel spreadsheets that are reflective of what was in this PowerPoint presentation.

And so that first year we did the check marks for everything.

And then year two, we really started to focus on what is required for restoration or needing it to be historic, and then who is just maintaining now.

You've done the restoration work and now you're just maintaining.

So we're still doing that.

That seems to be a nice way to catch the uh maybe they needed to update siding from metal to wood, and they never did that.

So we reach out to them.

This has to be done.

There are still a number of properties that have restorative work to do, or just the plaque.

You gotta put the plaque on, then you're maintaining, but you still have something you have to do.

This year we took that same idea, and then I personally did a bit of a trial run.

I had five questions that I asked everybody.

Have there been any issues with the roof?

Uh any issues with termites or beetles, uh, any plumbing issues, flooding, electrical, and then other that was just kind of a general home maintenance.

Try and get some some solicit some information from people.

That's I think what would be nice moving forward as a staff planner.

Uh is since it takes the approval of HPC Planning Commission and City Council to adopt some of these contracts and get them recorded with the county.

Now that they're recorded with the county, technically that is what their contract is.

They are tied to the things that are in there.

And if they said they were gonna update, uh replace their driveway in 15 years, and 20 years goes by and the driveway is perfectly fine.

Why would we force somebody to replace the driveway for no good reason?

Um so it's uh it's an unfolding conversation that we're trying to figure out.

Yeah, and I'll just add to that.

I think as the commission's aware, um, you know, in 2024, the city council kind of put a pause on the Mills Act program to kind of evaluate what the impacts were fiscally uh to the city's city's uh budget as far as the you know tax savings associated with the Mills Act program and the loss of revenue associated with that.

Uh and we had a economic uh fiscal analysis completed, and that was intended to come uh be brought forward to the commission and then to council for uh you know to consideration of program changes to the Mills Act program.

That's still very much uh in the plan to come before the commission.

I think what uh if you've been following the budget discussion with city council this year, uh acknowledging the the deficit that's in the city budget, one of the uh items that got brought up during uh that discussion was whether or not they wanted to eliminate the Mills Act program in the interest of you know picking that revenue back up.

So that's not really on the table any longer.

Um and so where that leaves us is I think as staff, as Matthew kind of alluded to and Commissioner Barlow alluded to a minute ago, there's not really a lot of uh guardrails on the program as it exists today, and there's not a lot of guidance on how the programs to be implemented.

Uh I think we're it's from the year 2000, I believe.

So we're we're 25 years into this program, and it's probably time to reevaluate the structure of the program and let the commission to your point put some more consistency guardrails on uh and really start looking at what the program's intentions are.

Uh if it's for restoration, it's for maintenance of historic characteristics on historic properties, then the maintenance plan should probably be tied more directly to those types of items.

Um, and then yeah, I think if we uh so what our plan is is to bring forward some program changes to the commission to get your thoughts and consideration, hopefully a recommendation at some point on that to go forward to council.

Uh, another item worth noting is the Mills Act program was adopted by a resolution in the year 2000.

It's not codified, it doesn't exist in our ordinance really, other than a reference to a historical incentive like the Mills Act program.

So there's not a lot of uh codified regulations uh for the Mills Act program locally.

Um so that's something we're really wanting to come in and kind of codify the program, make it a little bit more structured, a little bit more um, you know, uh consistent across the board for all property owners and really tie it back to the intent of the Mills Act program, which is to offset the cost associated with owning and maintaining a historic property.

So we think that those changes will probably come forward to the commission in the early stages of 2026 and hopefully get adopted and codified and by council in the same year.

I would I, for one, and I'm sure a lot of us I'm open to, I know you all are the experts on it, but on a working session, uh, you know, I know we usually meet one hour, but um, I'm open if we have to do a special meeting and yeah, and it'll certainly involve obviously we want to we want that to be a public process that involves our current MILS Act contract, you know, property owners.

I think it will it will impact them.

Uh some of the changes that I mean it's it's kind of an uh open booth as far as the changes to be considered right now, as Matthew mentioned the way the program structured the contracts uh are for 10 years to auto-renew and they run with the land that that can all be changed and restructured in future contracts and the program can be restructured to where those existing contracts are uh required to be um you know re-recorded under with new new parameters.

Um so there's kind of a lot of options there.

So we definitely want to involve the commission in those conversations as well as the public, uh, because I think it is worth looking at.

Now that we're 25 years in this program, I think we've learned a lot of lessons, and I think there's a lot of ways that this could be updated.

Yeah, and and I think as a city, you know, we need to be careful to not disincentivize people too much.

But at the same time, I agree with you and and I mean the conversations we had, there's a responsibility um to maintain your property at least, if not to upgrade or okay.

I understand economic times are tough, but at least maintain it.

You can't be a freeloader.

Uh, you can receive fire, uh, police, roads, schools for nothing, you know.

Um, I'm glad to hear.

I'm sorry, I already assume that nobody had anybody have any you have to go ahead.

I'm waiting for I'm on a full I'm glad I'm just I want to say I'm glad that the council decided that way because um two things, uh and don't ask me to quote you the study, but uh if a property is under the Mills Act and uh uh blocks a other properties benefit from the increased uh value of that property, everybody right, like all boats rise or whatever the saying is.

The other thing is understandably, I also work for a local agency.

Um 10 million dollars, I think is the okay.

Uh and this is gonna sound maybe callous or naive, but not everything is about money.

We also have a nice feeling uh walking down the street and looking at a nice building, you know, it just beautifies the area.

Um anyway, I just wanted to say I'm grateful that the council didn't scrap it.

I was gonna ask, uh, but I forgot I was gonna ask why the properties leveled off in 20 uh 24, but you answered.

Um I'm gonna ask it.

I know this is not the time, probably 25 and 26.

Um budget year 25, 26 is probably not the time.

But have you considered uh, or let me ask you this this way, how do people find out about the Mills Act?

Is it just when you your realtor tells you um how say if I I don't live in a historic property, unfortunately, but if I if I wanted to be on it and I wasn't in this commission, how would I find out?

Yeah.

So we obviously have a lot of information in the planning office that we we uh make available to the public.

It's on our website.

There's a lot of information there.

If I had to guess, you know, I think for the most part for for people who are purchasing properties that would maybe be interested, probably from the real estate professional.

I think it's uh takes a very special type of person to even be interested in buying a historic property when they're when they're shopping for properties, and I'm sure it's something that gets brought up during the during that process with a real estate professional about some of the incentives that may offset some of the costs.

I think most of our real estate professionals are quite familiar with the program and uh and and advertise it as such.

There are two additional things that I've heard frequently, which is people who have owned historic properties in other jurisdictions.

Um they move here and they still either want to own a historic home or uh some of the financial benefits that can be involved there.

And then the second one being they heard about it organically, either from neighbors or or whatever it happens to be.

Um, I probably talk to uh myself one person every week or two who's asking, hey, I heard about the Millzact program.

Is there any way my home could be historic?

Um especially since when people go through architectural review, we're often noting, hey, your home is potentially historic, or it's uh greater than 50 years.

So you need to have an architectural historian be involved.

And then that usually ends up with some more questions as to, oh, so my home's historic.

What can I not quit?

Yeah.

All right.

So I was just gonna mention I understand 2526 might not be the year, but you know, identify I can see a lot of properties out there.

And I by the way, thank you for the report.

I saw an Art Deco house that looks very simple to to almost everybody.

I love that house.

And I just remember it's by my house, and I just remembered it's a protected property.

So that's on Spencer.

I don't know if you know what I'm talking about.

Spencer.

Oh, you know what I'm talking about?

Yeah.

I love that house.

Uh, and I walk my dogs there on purpose sometimes to just see the house.

Um, but uh maybe in the future to consider if we identify uh as staff or as commissioners a house that we like.

I don't know if there's a little thing we can drop in the in their mailbox that says, hey, have you considered uh doing this?

I don't know if it's allowed to be soliciting for uh people.

Uh but I mean, I see so many properties out there that have some historical value, I think, right?

Because I'm not uh uh I'm not Meg doing the the study, but that could be some way to incentivize also the program.

Just put it in.

But you had a question.

Thank you for entertaining my stop you.

Uh and I think Matthew answered one of my questions, which was if you're uh in your uh contract, you're gonna paint every six years, but it doesn't need painting.

And it's 10 years, you know, are you in default?

So that's to be determined.

What so technically they are in default.

Uh if you do not do what is in the contract, it you are vulnerable.

Uh as to the enforcement of it.

Uh, when it comes to the city choosing to at this point, the only thing that we have is to turn terminate the contract.

Um that we have not gone through that yet, but we have gotten very close on a couple of properties.

Uh providing them a notice if you don't do X within certain number of days, we will start to bring you before public meetings to remove you from to terminate the contract or whatever.

Yeah, we have options as as Matthew noted, you can can't straight up cancel the contract and then you can turn to a notice of non-renewal.

The notice of non-renewal would have a 10-year phase out period.

These things would have to come before this commission and then the council before any of those changes get made.

Uh as noted earlier, the maintenance plans, some of these date back 25 years, some of them are very vague, somewhat general.

These are some of the things we want to look at when we bring forward the program changes to the commission.

Uh that's been, you know, we've noticed that, you know, in the way of like painting and a lot of these things, you know, the the contracts are in perpetuity.

They auto auto renewal every year.

So there, unless we take a proactive, you know, step, the contract will will be there forever, essentially, meaning that the tax savings are there forever.

But in looking at the program and longevity of the program, it's worth taking a look at really uh at a certain point, a property should be completely restored under this contract.

But in looking at the program and longevity of the program, it's worth taking a look at really uh at a certain point a property should be completely restored under this contract and what's the life cycle from that point on, whether or not the contract may should have a life cycle that maybe is more in line with the length of the maintenance plan rather than just in perpetuity after you've you know expended the cost to maintain or restore a property, you know, it's suffice to say the properties already lasted a hundred, hundred and twenty years, it should be good for another solid chunk of time there.

So these are the types of changes that we're gonna be bringing forward for consideration, uh and maybe let some program language that allows some flexibility that if in the event that it's not actually needed to be repainted in six years, that obviously we wouldn't make you but the way we approach it as staff is we try to uh you know be somewhat flexible.

Uh as you as Matthew noted in the presentation, we have some properties that did not get inspected this year.

Um that is technically in violation of their contract.

However, rather than you know, take them into the proceedings of canceling their contract, uh, we we wanna be somewhat flexible, allow for those to be you know inspected the following year to ensure that they're complying with our contract before we move into those enforcement proceedings.

So um we try to try to be reasonable.

Um, but if at some point staff feels like there's a blatant disregard for the contract or blatant breach of the contract, uh it's definitely something we'd be willing to bring forward to this commission.

I'm not your city attorney, but it's a contract.

I would love to give Matthew after many reasonable attempts to contact the property owner and let him in and not being able to inspect the property, give him some right to go into the property.

I know that's a a huge deal, but you know, if it's a contract, um and again, we go back to the incentivizing versus disincentivizing people to one in, but I would love that because it's uh for my what I remember, and I don't know if the same properties, but last year you also had issues with a couple of properties that they were just not responsive and you couldn't look at.

So part of the report now in the uh in the summary table attachment one, uh there's a new column this year noting the most recent year in which it was inspected.

Um so most of them 2025, a few of them 2024.

And a few select it is paper trail recorded as the last time being 2023.

And we have reached out, we have records of reaching out.

Um yeah, yeah.

So what we look for is staff is those consecutive years of no inspect, you know.

Obviously, there's families, you know, life situations to happen that maybe understand.

Um, but yeah, definitely we agree.

I think where we would go uh where we would recommend from the staff level is you know, rather than just um guaranteeing entry onto the property, we would just go into the cancellation process.

If you're unwilling to let staff, you know, inspect the property that's clear by the contract.

Yeah, we would rather than try to say, well, we're just gonna go inspect anyways, we would probably just move to cancel the contract at that point.

That would probably be safer for Matthew, actually.

I'll take it.

Yeah.

Especially with big on property.

So I I get the impression that uh a lot of these contracts were just guesses as people filled in uh anyway.

Um I was wondering if there is any place um where all these plaques are written that we could maybe online or so when we see a property walking around and it doesn't have a plaque, or it does have a plaque, or you're driving by that you could access the plaques.

So, like a like a database of the plaques that pertain, yeah.

That's uh that's a good idea.

I don't believe we have anything like that at this time, um other than just the table of the properties themselves.

But I'm thinking the next cycle they usually take a photo of the plaque, the next cycle.

I could just save that particular photo.

Uh there are times um, like, oh, we reviewed that property, but I can't remember what what it is, and take it out and actually, you know, peer uh through with foliage to wherever the black is.

Um, I do appreciate in the report the color photos that we because I don't remember the addresses, but I remember the houses.

Yeah, and that was nice.

So thank you.

So we have a I just to respond to you, I do think some of the neighborhoods have um you know, they have their own websites or links through the cities.

And I know for the old town, they do have the historic or many of the historic properties mapped, and there's the the pictures of the plaque, but the the language of it or something similar is there.

And it's not pictures of the plaque, but the the language of it or something similar is there.

But not every house.

And not every neighborhood.

Question.

I'm just going to support um one.

I think the idea of uh of a contract is that the city needs to be perceived as following the contract, because if you if you make exceptions in one, then others will note that and then say, well, you this was allowed.

Why am I not allowed this?

You know, and it makes it more complicated for the city.

And so I just wanted to support the idea that there is a structure to it that people can understand and follow.

Yes.

And and it and exceptions make it confusing for everybody.

Absolutely.

And part of the thinking that went into the restorative work versus maintaining work is something like a driveway replacement is not historic restoration.

That is general maintenance of the property.

So if you're saying that you're going to spend $20,000 to replace it in 10 years and you don't, yes, that's out of line of the contract.

But if we took it before HPC, would you find that it damaged the historic integrity of the property?

Uh I suppose staff made that decision to probably not.

But there has been a there has been some uh I'm not really sure what the word is, some some judicious decisions about things that are intended to be historic restoration, and if and it's usually in these contracts for the maintenance schedule in the first two or three years, there's things that they were supposed to do to restore the property, and then if you're talking about tree trimming later on, that's that's maintenance.

So uh all that to say, as part of these ordinance updates, trying to put in a as part of the initial contract, list the things that have to be done to make it historic and differentiate those from long-term maintenance.

It's a good idea.

I I think too you know, it's sometimes they're unforeseen consequences of actions where one point all of it looks very logical and easy, and then somebody has um health issue or aging issue and is dealing with some of these things, and you have to guide them back into it in some way.

I'm sure they're personal situations that make it difficult, and I just want to um kind of express sympathy for you in that, and also you're doing a good job.

So keep it up.

We really appreciate the work you've done.

Um, William.

Yeah, I've got a couple of questions.

One, uh, does the homeowner have to document their actual expenses in any of this?

Depends on the contract.

Most of them know.

Okay.

So we really have no idea how close to reality the contract.

That's why we do the annual inspection.

So if someone says they replace the roof if we're inspecting annually, it should be readily noticeable if that's a new roof or if it's a 20-year-old roof.

But that's some of the program changes that we want to bring forward.

There's not really a program requirement for them to document with receipts.

There's not that's kind of kind of stuff that you know, we we think in the future, you know, maintenance plans should probably be created in uh conjunction like consultation with a contractor to have realistic, you know, rather than just a homeowner estimating what it's gonna cost to repair a foundation, they should probably they we should be getting consultation with a professional as to what that's gonna cost, and then we can tie that back to the inspection side of the actual restorative work and require receipts or some kind of documentation that that work was completed and what year and when it was completed and by whom.

Um, and then so all that's the kind of stuff that we really want to bring back and tighten up the program um to ensure that yeah, perfect.

Uh and then the other question was uh when somebody has not completed an item on their list, is there any effort to capture the reasoning for that?

Uh reasoning excuses, uh didn't feel like it.

Um or we had a pipe leak in our basement, and so we allocated funds to repairing that this year.

Um ultimately it's marked as no, it wasn't done, but in terms of us going out as staff and enforcing on it, that's a little bit more to our discretion.

That's the why I didn't have yes.

I'm just thinking more in terms of identifying uh persistence problems, for example.

So that's one uh that's one thing that I've been excited about.

This is the third time around.

Um the the types of photos that are taken now.

I make sure I get all four sides of the structure.

So if we come back a future year, and there's there's a new window there, or uh there was one case where I'd taken photos of the windows.

Um they redid the sighting of the house, the windows were in new locations, new positions, and literally went in with a dotted line on Microsoft Word and was like it used to be level across here, they are shifted now.

Um this needs to be writed through either putting it back to what it was or going through the historic permit process.

Um I think the photos in particular have been the most valuable part of this.

And after each inspection, whatever photos are taken are uploaded at least to our server of the property address, uh photo inspection 2025, and then whatever photos were taken.

Right.

Any other yes, just one forgive me if I miss this, Matthew, but uh how many inspections can they miss?

I'm concerned about the three houses that haven't had inspections the last two years.

And I know on the Finch House, uh, that current owner has been attending the old town meetings.

I can't remember her story.

I think it's an inheritance, and I I don't know any I can't recall other details, but I was just wondering how many inspections can they miss.

So since we don't have it codified right now, those type of decisions would probably factor into when we enter into cancellation.

Okay.

And I will say at least one of them that I saw them the first round.

Um like they were friendly and nice, and I'm not I don't even remember how we got a hold of them last time, but we tried multiple different ways this time and it didn't come through.

Yeah, as Matthew said there's not a hard number as far as inspections.

Um we've been you know, tried to be a little bit flexible as properties maybe change hands or if there's just something going on, but I think we we've definitely identified, you know, after at least three missed inspections, it's something we would we're concerned enough that we would bring back to the commission and entertain whether or not the commission wanted us to move forward with uh cancellation or notice of non-renewal.

Thank you.

I have just one uh question, one more question.

Um when these properties change hands.

I assume that the MILSAC contract goes along with the deed and is recorded like a lien or something else that's attached to the property.

So we would assume that title company it would show up in a title report.

So that's typically how you would be aware of it.

Um now just whether or not you got the contract, it it would give you the you know, the recorded number for the contract, you know.

I'm not it depends on probably how extensive of the title report you get if you get a copy of every recorded document or if it just references the recorded document.

Um but that's again as structured in the program today, it runs with the land.

When we bring forward changes to the program, that's something this commission can take a look at and whether or not they want it to automatically transfer with a new owner, or if they want the contract to cancel upon transfer of ownership.

Uh, you know, that's these are the types of things that we'll be bringing forward for discussion because again, it's kind of one of those things that someone may purchase the property, never even realize they're under a contract, uh, and then never do anything to the property, and then sell the property five years later.

Yeah, yeah.

It's just a thing.

I mean, it's been a long time since we bought our house, but we got a uh homeowners association, you know, what we were supposed to do, a whole document.

Look, I might be different, but I read everything.

Well, you're lawyer.

Well, the the I mean, yeah, it was also, I mean, a big purchase, yeah, right.

So the fact that people say, Oh, I wasn't aware, I don't know.

Yeah, my father told me to read everything at the time.

Especially if it runs with the LAN, which I would love to keep, by the way.

I mean, it's yeah, it's like uh the whatever the airplane um what do we call it?

The navigation easement.

Well, that yeah, the uh up, you know, from your house, you can see if you're in a airplane path or something.

That's uh one of these things that you would should know, you know.

Uh yes.

I I do think that it's all a matter of choice from the very beginning, whether you decide to go for a mill to act, you're looking for the advantage of it so that the money you save can be put toward doing these jobs.

It's you're gonna have to maintain your property somehow.

Most of us need to do that, and so having this support is a wonderful thing, and it benefits the city to have maintained historic property.

So that's been the uh contract.

And if through time you change your mind, or you buy a property, well, and then in that case, many of the people that sell properties with MillSAP contracts, see it as an advantage to the new homeowner.

And so it's part of the you know, um, discussion, they say, and not only do you get a lovely property, but you also get one with a mail sacks.

So I really think the idea that you're unaware is not an acceptable um you know concept.

I think we have to say that it your choice to buy a property with Melsack, your choice to engage in a mail sack property.

The thing that that I that I have a little sympathy for, but I think it's just life, is it in time people become older and their memories change, and maybe they will need to sell the property, or maybe you know, things will happen.

It you know, life moves on and properties do too in time.

Rarely would it be the original people that built these houses are living in them now because you have to have age and change of property owner over time, and so we just have to look at it like a contract.

I don't know any other way that that the city can can do it.

And I think that's the kind of thing we need to remind the current owners of those properties is that it is a contract, there's a way out of the contract, but if you're in the contract and getting the advantage of it, then you need to uh deal with the responsibilities of it.

And a big one is communication with the city too.

When you reach out to them, there should be some communication.

And so uh Kathy's question, how long do we wait that you don't communicate is a good one?

You know, we we're and I just appreciate again, you know, the work you're doing.

It's so much more than we've had before.

So we're really walking you know a path toward this little by little, and and I thank you for it.

All right, um, I think we have to open it up for public comments.

All right, so I don't see anybody in chambers.

Anybody online, Spencer?

Uh there are still no attendees online.

Thank you.

Any final comments uh for staff, Matthew Levi, anybody?

All right.

Do you need us?

Do you need a motion from us to receive it or we're good?

We don't have to receive the presentation.

Well, thank you very, very much.

I agree with all the comments.

Very informative.

I thought it was gonna be a short meeting, but I'm glad it wasn't because we got to learn a lot more about what you do and all the good work that you've been doing.

And I'm glad you're safe.

And uh it's tricky when you mess with or they think you're messing with people's property.

So the scariest about it sometimes is the dogs.

Oh, that's right.

All right.

Well, if uh nothing else on this item, we'll move to planning update.

Sure.

So just quickly as noted in the report.

Uh, as of now, we don't have any items tentatively scheduled scheduled for our December 11th meeting.

Um, however, that changes, we'll certainly let this group know.

Um, and then of course, we have some our upcoming historical and cultural events noted on there as well, including um uh the Kenry Row days that extends into December 1st, and then of course the Robert Lewis Stevenson's on birthday celebration, November 15th, if you're interested in that.

And then uh the traditional tree lighting, of course, on here in Colton Hall on.

I know some of the commissioners like to share events.

Anybody have any events for us?

No, not we do look forward to the nice uh city gathering that absolutely where we get enjoying just visiting with people and December 3rd.

That's correct.

It'll be December 3rd this year if you haven't received your invite already.

Right.

Yes.

Uh well, Christmas in the Adobe's 12th 13th of December.

And since you mentioned the lighthouse in Point Sur all the time, I'm gonna mention an event with Carmel.

Is that okay?

Um Carmel Heritage is having our 23rd in's tour, ends of distinction tour, December 7th.

Guess who's the tour chair?

And I have six ins this year.

So we haven't had six ins for many years.

And um the San Francisco Chronicle is doing a special feature in their holiday section this Sunday, the 16th.

And I'm looking forward to this because we get lots of people from the Bay Area attending.

And we have some historic inns this time too.

The Cotswold Lincoln Green Inn is having their centennial this year, which is old for Carmel.

And the Pine Inn, first hotel in Carmel.

And um so we have a good mix.

I'm I'm very excited about it.

So if any of you are available Sunday after they light the tree in Carmel Friday night, December 5th, and then we always used used to before COVID and starting again now.

Uh like uh culminate with the INS tour on Sunday.

So it's a community thing for people.

Thank you.

Thank you.

All right.

Uh with that, um we adjourn at five o'clock.