How do we give us a h do we give us a hug I'm sorry, yes.

Four, three, two.

Good morning, and welcome to the appeals hearing board for January twenty-ninth, twenty twenty-six.

Um I'll call the meeting to order at ten A.

M.

Okay, we'll start with a roll call.

Um board member Fritz.

Board Member Hoffmeister, Chair Glenzer.

Okay, let the record reflect that all the uh board members are present.

Uh first order of business on the agenda is approval of minutes.

The first set of minutes is going to be uh February twenty first, twenty twenty-four.

Okay.

Is there a second?

Okay, um roll call uh board member hofmeister.

Uh Chair Glenzer.

And board member Fritz.

Okay, let the motion um go ahead.

Oh, sorry, um Alicia, if you could also just do the little um description on how the public can participate.

Sure, on Zoom.

Okay.

Should I finish the minutes first and then do that, or should I start with um they just took the vote on the one, but I would go ahead and um read the how you can participate or refer people to the agenda to look it up?

Yeah, sure.

I'll just go ahead and read it.

So for members of the public, um, if you want to participate by Zoom, you can join on the computer, and the front of the agenda explains how to do this.

Um just refer to the front of the agenda.

I think it's the easiest way to put it.

So thank you.

Um and we will do a countdown to see if there's any people on Zoom that would like to participate.

They can just raise their hand and and we will call on them.

Okay, so we do have someone online right now.

Um let me find out if she's ready to.

Uh are you here to speak on the um item number uh three?

The appeal of the Mr.

Hello?

No, I'm not okay.

Oh my god.

Okay, okay.

So we have uh the approval of second item on the agenda, approval of minutes of September 18th, 2025.

Does anyone want to make a motion to approve?

Um roll call vote.

Uh, Chair Glenzer.

Board member Hoffmeister.

Yes.

And board member Fritz.

Okay.

Let the motion uh let the record reflect that uh the minutes from February 21st, 2024 and September 18th, 2025 have been approved.

Okay.

Uh next on the agenda is uh general public comments.

Uh any commenters online.

I don't see any hands raised.

Any commenters in the audience.

Seeing none in the audience, we'll go ahead and close general public comments.

Now it's time for public hearing.

Um, the item we'll be hearing today is the appeal of Charlie Chell on the forestry division's decision to deny the application for removal of a monterey pine in the backyard of 814 Martin Street.

So I just want to let everyone know this is um an informal hearing and formal rules of evidence do not apply.

The board may consider any consider any evidence or information deemed relevant and reasonable and reliable.

Um the applicant has the burden of proof, and at this time we'll ask the board to disclose any ex parte contacts.

I have none.

Okay.

And at this time we'll ask the city attorney to make her ethical wall comment.

Thank you, um, Ms.

Sellis.

I'm the city attorney for the city of Monterey and I'll advising the appeals hearing board on this matter today.

Also present in in chambers' assistant city attorney Karen Crotley.

She is representing the department in this case.

In order to ensure that there is a fair hearing, um for both sides, we keep an ethical screen.

So I have not discussed this case with Ms.

Crotley, and she has not discussed it with me.

We've not shared documents or information.

I'm receiving information at the same time that the board is receiving the information.

And this is just to ensure um fairness in the hearing procedure.

So at this time, um, I'd like to uh start with the opening statement from uh from the applicant, uh Mr.

Dell.

Um I have the material to go through.

Should I go through that now?

Okay, yep, you sure should.

You guys don't all hear me, right?

Yes, okay.

Yeah, probably not just.

So I I handed out a couple pieces of information, sort of a summary here that talks about sort of the overall and gets a timeline that you guys are aware of.

And then also a couple pictures that I thought might be relevant, and I'll kind of talk about them as uh as I go through this.

But let me go ahead and kind of wind back and just give you a little bit of a backstory about the tree.

Okay, so it's it's against the you know, sort of the back fence of our yard.

And it used to be there was another one right on the other side, sort of a companion tree that I think we're planted more or less at the same time.

And so two monterey pines, basically literally, you know, a couple feet from each other, they do what they do, right?

When they grow, they end up growing apart from each other and they end up being one-sided.

Well, the one tree was taken down a couple two or three years ago, uh, our neighbor's tree.

Um, and so that left our tree sitting out there.

You know, it's it's asymmetrical, it's leaning away because it was leaning away from that other tree, which happens to be toward the house, and also now it's a single tree that's unprotected from wind and everything else.

Um, so you know, we have what unfortunately is just you know a bad situation for a tree.

So I followed the process, you know, got the permits, everything else.

Um I've had several arborists out, um, one that I've paid, some that I haven't paid.

Uh in general, because they'd all give me the same story, but at the same time, they kind of say, well, the city won't approve it.

Um, but the arbor is all basically, you know, Gayton, you know, scored the tree as hazardous.

You know, one scored it a um 10 out of 12, another one 11 out of 12.

And I think you guys are probably all familiar with the hazard scale.

Um, this tree is um, you know, 33 inches in diameter, so it gets four for size.

It's um next to like four constantly occupied houses.

So it gets four for threat to um to structures, and from a standpoint of probability of falling, one arborist rated at a two out of four, the other rated at a three out of four.

But you know, these days, you know, and I'll kind of come back to this over and over again, I think, but you know, these trees can fall pretty much at any time.

Um, and so you know, it's kind of funny, but we have a dog, and so I walk the dog all the time and we go through uh via Parazo Park, and we go we go through all the parks.

But since since you know we're out walking last week, I decided I'll go ahead and count the Monterey Pines.

So believe it or not, there are like 60 big Monterey pines in Via Parazo Park.

Um, and then I started thinking about well, how many of the fallen like in the last five years in terms of my memory?

And so there are like three that fell down at the gulch, kind of like down below the um the sand pit or the sand volleyball courts and everything else.

There's um, you know, one or two that fell up um around the picnic area.

There's one I think that fell on the other side, but just tally that up, that's like six a half a dozen out of the 60 trees.

That's 10% of these trees have fallen in the last five years.

They do fall, they all looked healthy, as do the trees that are in quarry park and up at uh veterans and over on Skyline.

You know, this it's just hard to tell when these trees are gonna fall.

The right soil conditions, the right wind conditions, and any of these trees are suspect.

Um, I mean, I think it's just sort of a fact of life that that could happen.

So, what happens in this case if it falls?

In this particular case, it's leaning over our house, it's large.

It's um, I did the math, it's probably about you know 15 tons, you know, for this size tree.

You can kind of go look it up.

I mean, any of the AIs will figure it out for you too.

But um, because of this how this tree is situated, if it falls, it's likely gonna fall over our house, and it's big enough that the crown is going to extend past the roof line.

So when it comes down, you know, it's not gonna come down sort of nice and soft, it's gonna come down hard, it's gonna come right across the roof, it's gonna break the roof.

Um, who knows what else might happen.

And of course, that's where our bedroom is.

So we're sleeping there too.

So, you know, there's a threat not only to property but to life.

It's um, you know, again, it's something that just could happen, and if this tree doesn't fall on us, then you know, on the picture that I sent you in in this um piece here, you can see where the tree is, um, that's direction of lean, and what's in the fall radius.

So there are four houses in in the fall radius this tree.

Um, the neighbors want it out too.

They feel just as threatened as we do.

In fact, we've got one set of neighbors that's confided in us that they sleep in a different room during storms.

So, you know, it's something that that we all are concerned about.

Um so I'm pretty worried and also very frustrated at this at this point.

I mean, I feel like the way the city code is is written, and I've been thinking a lot about code, and I know you've been thinking about it too.

And I'd love to actually get with you, Tys, because I've got several things that I think we could discuss.

Um, and the Monterey This the Neighborhood Association's been discussing them too.

So, but it feels the way code is written these days, and I don't blame you guys.

You're acting with the code, is that I have to wait for this tree to fall and hope that it doesn't do any damage.

It's just unlikely, or try to find that short little window between when it's obviously about ready to fall, it's starting to tilt over and everything else, and when it actually falls, and hopefully I can get it out in time.

That's kind of a tough um tough window to hit, even if it exists, right?

Um, from the standpoint of replacement, you know, we love the trees.

We move here to this area because of the trees.

You know, the other place that I we thought about moving a long time ago was Cambria, same kind of ecosystem and stuff.

Um, so of course we're gonna replant trees.

We've got a dozen trees on the property right now.

Uh it's not that big, but it's um, you know, it's it's you know, like one tree for every 10,000 feet, so it's reasonably dense at this point, but you know, we can fit a couple more in there.

Um, but again, this kind of gets back to code.

I think we have to stop worrying about sort of fighting tooth and nail for a tree.

I mean, look at all the energy we're all spending here on this.

The point isn't a matter of this tree.

The point is a matter of how do you manage the forest?

How do you continue to replant trees?

How do you renew the forest?

So to me, the logical thing to do here, this tree's a threat.

Let's take it out.

Let's go ahead and move on and plant some more here, there, wherever else, you know.

Um, in our particular case, in terms of the backyard, um, I don't want to plant another monterey pine there, pine there.

We'll plant something in the front.

Um, but the backyard has a couple pine trees now that are heavily infested with uh dwarf mistletoe.

And I think that if we just plant another one there, it's gonna just be the same problem, and it wouldn't have a um, you know, it'd be off to in a disadvantage before it even got started.

Um so yeah, put it out in the front and hopefully they'll underground the lines before um the tree gets really big.

Now, in terms of the uh um the city forester, um, when when Mike, when you came out, I mean, you denied the tree um with really with no explanation.

Um, when we went out to add it over email, you came back and you said that it was healthy or peeled appeared healthy to you.

Um, I don't think health is the real issue here.

Again, all the trees that fall up in the forest look healthy.

The issue is the hazard evaluation whether this tree poses a threat to property in the life.

And I never saw anything in your evaluation about that.

I think that that's something that that I wish you would have considered for, but um, to me, that is what really drives this particular decision here.

Um, in terms of other remedies, uh the reason why I gave you these other two pictures is because wanted to sort of take pictures to show the lean and to show the asymmetrical crown.

Um, I don't think there's any way that pruning can help.

And I've had our bursts out, um, urban lumberjacks has been out, uh, other guys have been out doing estimates.

All the crown literally is to the left of the tree.

I mean, toward our house.

I mean, because of the lean and so forth, there's very little.

So, I mean, what could you possibly do other than like prune it back to a pole to get it to be balanced?

Even then it wouldn't be, but then at that point it's not gonna, you know, if you make it a 30 foot high pull, it's not gonna do nearly as big much damage, but it also won't be a tree.

Um, so again, I think that that um that doing any kind of um pruning, we've been there, we've done that, we've had this thing pruned a couple times.

Twenty, five hundred dollars a pop, it gets expensive to manage these trees.

Um, and so um, so it's not something I think is a viable option uh to do that again.

Um in terms of the um the mitigation recommended the two to one replacement.

Um I'm still curious about the reasoning behind that again.

There's uh a lot of trees on the property right now.

If you sort of look at tree density in the neighborhood, we're on the upper end of that scale, as opposed to the lower end.

We've got a lot of trees already.

Um so I wouldn't mind putting another monterey pine in, and then we've got some plants to put a couple more oaks in.

We just negotiate where.

But um anyway, it was a kind of odd to see the sort of the two-to-one replacement because I just didn't really see how that kind of fit in.

I understand where it fits in code, but I just didn't see what the intent was behind it.

Yeah, and we've got to really kind of think long term here.

You know, these trees grow.

So I'm hopefully what we plant now is gonna last 75 years, and so and it'll get big like the rest of them do, and it'll be a good thing.

Um, I have a couple other things that I've really hesitated to bring up, but since the um, you know, sort of the preamble to the you know, the meaning invitation and so forth really talks about um about you know the sort of the fact that you need to bring up everything here that might end up being useful in court later.

There are a couple things that I do need to bring up.

Um, and I'm sure you guys are all aware that I mean there is a potential conflict of interest between a city forester and the tree services owned by his dad.

Um so there are things in code we can do to recommend that.

So, I mean, I think we can really solve all those kind of problems, but it's something that that exists today, and I know when when Mike was out, you know, it seemed to me that we were, you know, that we were on the same page.

When you were out the year before, you said get an arborst report, and I really felt that it's like get an arborst report and then we're all good.

So I was really surprised when all of this changed, it seemed kind of you know, I was really taken back.

I thought we were really just going through a fairly formal and just a formality, um, and that uh, you know, the arbor is rated it um uh hazard and recommended reproval.

I thought that was kind of done.

Um, but in any case, it's what it is.

And the other thing is from a standpoint of liability.

Now, I have experts that say the tree is a hazard.

The city has experts to say the tree is healthy.

If if I took the tree out or decided to keep the tree on my own accord based on my own experts, it's on me, it's my liability.

If the city tells me not to take this tree out base, then I question, I think the city is culpable on this, and that um it becomes then the city's liability, either for us to or insurance company to recoup any damages, or for our heirs if the worst thing happens.

So I don't know, but it just seems odd, and again, I think that's I know that there's a section in the city code that says that that you know that the city has no liability, but still it comes down to who's making the decision.

So that kind of wraps it up.

I mean, from a standpoint of the board here, you're um you're supposed to evaluate on about a six things tree health, great.

The tree has some issues, but it's a mature tree, it's reasonably healthy.

Uh tree safety.

I hope I've shown you guys that from a safety standpoint, this tree poses a hazard to both property and life, not just of us, but of other parts of the neighborhood as well.

Um visual prominence, a pretty tree, but it's in the backyard.

Um aesthetic beauty and slash property values.

All of our neighbors want the tree out too.

Um, they were, you know, one of them was gonna be here today, but then he had a um uh a meeting coming.

Anyway, it doesn't matter, but um, they're all very interested in it.

Um applicant anxiety.

Um, yeah, we lose sleep over this, right?

I kind of break out sometimes over this.

I have neighbors that sleep in another room.

Um it's it's an issue.

Uh mitigation measures, I'm sure we'll work something out.

We're happy to plant trees, it's not an issue on that kind of thing.

So and so it comes down to it feels to me that the city here is asking us to take on a financial and a life risk that we are not interested in accepting.

Um, and I hope you guys um see to go ahead and grant this approval.

Okay, that's kind of it where I if you have any questions, yeah.

Thanks.

Just uh stay where you are.

Okay, sure.

Uh I want to open it up for questions from uh my fellow uh fellow board members.

Um it'd be in the chronology, but about two years ago.

I think so.

About two years ago, two and a half, something like that.

I guess all I did because I didn't put it down there, but yeah, about two years ago.

How long have you lived in the house?

Um we bought it in 2019.

Lottery modeling at that point, bathrooms really weren't working.

So I lived and worked on the house, and my wife lived in San Jose, and come down on the weekends and use the bathrooms at the park because you know it's close by.

So, your neighbor's been anything you're writing about.

Um we have one friend who submitted a letter, um, one neighbor invited.

Um the neighbors would be happy to do that, but I didn't ask them to.

I wanted to um in the uh in the board packet.

There is a you off you you provided or your response to it.

You you provided a pretty detailed timeline of the last couple of years, a couple three years dealing with this tree.

I uh and you you you briefly mentioned it just now.

I I want to give you an opportunity to remind us, so to speak, of with that tree.

What have you actually done over the last couple of years?

Um page two of uh the handout with the picture has a chronology of the um actually I'm sorry, it's it's it's basically this has to do with the tree removal um terms of actual maintenance of the tree.

Everything's here.

So um see in 2020, the um urban lubber jacks was out.

Um and then in 22 we had um out looking at you know another arborist out.

Um sprayed the um the oaks with uh myocorizage to um to help them be healthy and looked at the back trees.

Um and then we had um, you know, uh urban back out um in 2023.

Uh and then actually they were just out this last um this last Christmas time pruning another one of the trees.

Thank you.

Just wanted to get the remote.

Yeah, sure, sure, yeah.

Up front and center.

I have no further questions.

Do you have an extra copy of the handout you're talking about?

The handout?

Yeah, I didn't receive one.

No, but I've got it memorized, so thank you.

Um, but I I agree with um with the city forcer.

I mean, it's early signs, but that's it's not really something.

I think actually the mistletoe is probably more more relevant, but in either case, health isn't the issue here.

If you this tree could be as healthy as it could be, and with the right rain, the right windstorm, um, it's it's in trouble.

I mean, it's sitting there, there's no other trees around it.

If we get a um a heavy wind from the north, you know, that follows a um, you know, several inches of rain over a few days, and this tree will come down.

Because that's that's the direction.

And you know, we can go into physics.

I can talk about the torque arm and so forth and so on, but you know, it's not important.

Any more questions?

All right, great.

Thank you very much.

Thank you so much, guys.

Uh so the city, I'd like to have the city come up and uh present their case.

Uh Mr.

Dell had about 15 minutes on that, so the city should be feel feel free to take up to 15 minutes if that's okay.

Or yeah, well, I mean, what's the neighbor of the okay?

And we don't need time for it.

Okay.

Um, so good afternoon, or I guess good morning still.

I'm assistant city attorney Karen Cratley.

I'm representing um the forestry division today.

I'm here with assistant um urban forester Mike Taupe, and we'll go through the um presentation.

If you want to sit and respond over there, I can go through the background and then we'll get to your part.

Um we have a brief PowerPoint.

So, and before I get to that, let me just address because I don't want to forget it.

I think it's important.

Um, an issue with a conflict of interest was brought up.

And I just want to make very clear for the record, the Fair Political Practices Commission in California sets out rules and regulations regarding public employee conflicts of interest.

And their legal determination is if you have an adult child, um, an adult child who's not a dependent on their parent, who um does not receive income from their parents' business, they're separate entirely legally.

There is no legal conflict of interest just because your parent happens to have a business in the same town.

So I want to make very clear that Mr.

Taupe did not have a conflict of interests here.

So with that said, the legal background here is important.

And while we've heard some discussion that the city code needs to change, that is not the purview of this board.

That's the city council's decision.

Currently, the city council has adopted chapter 37 of the city code, um, which deals with the preservation of trees and shrubs.

And there they stay very clearly their policy is that this is meant to be a forested community, um, that the trees in the community significantly contribute to the city.

Um, and the city's goal is that we want to preserve trees and the replacement of trees when removal is unavoidable.

So, with that said, then the code lays out the requirements to get a permit to remove a tree, and then the city forester is given um five sort of conditions, standards to look at when granting a tree removal request.

First and foremost, you know, the health of the tree really is the touchstone for the forester.

We apparently have no debate here that this is a healthy tree.

Um, and based on that and that admission, the forester's denial of this permit was entirely proper.

So then when we get to the appeal stage, the code lays out slightly different categories and conditions for the board to apply.

And so when looking at the appeal today, you're to look at the visual prominence and importance of the tree on the site or in the community.

We've heard testimony already that several um Monterey Pines have already been removed.

If we keep removing Monterey Pines because of the fear um involved, we won't be left with a forest anymore.

So again, here's the tree at the back of the property at 814 Martin Street.

And then here's a photo on the left showing the canopy of the tree and on the right, the base of the tree.

And at this point, I think it'd be helpful that we hear from um assistant urban forester Mike Taupe.

Mr.

Taupe, can you um tell the board a bit about your background and work history?

Good morning.

Um, my name is Michael Taupe.

Um, as she said, as Karen said that I'm the assistant urban forester for the city of Monterey.

My background is I'm a certified arborist in uh ISA tree risk assessor.

Um, I've been in the industry for about 15 years.

And um I've been with the city for roughly almost four years now in this current role.

Okay.

So we see in the packet from arborist Amanda Gates, she is also ISA certified.

So you have a similar certification to her, is that right?

Correct.

Okay.

And when you and you went out to the site and personally inspected this tree, is that right?

I did.

Okay.

And can you tell the board what you observed?

Um the tree appeared to be really healthy uh based on the visual inspection at the time on site for the species.

The canopy exhibited really vigorous growth.

And um I couldn't see any obvious defects on the tree.

For example, like fruiting uh fungal bodies, any signs that the tree is compromised, like uplifting the soil in the roots, no cracking of the bark or the soil, and I didn't see any obvious broken branches at the time of inspection.

Um I feel like preventative canopy burning on the tree would really help reduce the weight um over the structure.

And overall, the tree appeared pretty healthy based on a level one visual inspection.

At the time I didn't do just a just level one visual only on the tree um that time of inspection.

And so the board understands a level two would actually involve um taking samples from the tree, is that right?

Um a level two would be probing the soil with a soil probe using binoculars, other other tools, and then a level three would be like doing sonic tomography or um using a resistograph to get uh internal core of the tree to see if it has any signs of decay on the inside.

And that's something that would the private homeowner typically get an arborist to perform on the tree, a higher level inspection.

And so based on your observations on the tree as well as your training and experience, did you feel that this tree was hazardous?

Uh based on the visual inspection I performed on the tree, I didn't see any obvious defects on the tree.

That would indicate it's going to fail.

Mm-hmm.

Um that's what you base your denial on, is that right?

Yes.

Okay.

Is there any other information um you'd like to add for the board?

Um I feel like in this kind of situation, the tree just appeared really healthy from what I could see.

Um, and like I said, I couldn't see any defects, obvious defects on the tree.

Um, based on the overall health, too.

It looks pretty healthy from what I could see.

Yes, it has bark beetle, but um it's pretty early stages from what I could see on the on the lower trunk of the tree.

Um preventative sprain or injection could potentially um treat the bark beetle on the tree.

Is bark beetle common in Monterey Pines?

Yeah, it's very common in Monterey Pine trees, especially in this area.

And a tree can still be healthy with the beetle, about three, yeah.

Okay.

Um so we also have an L community.

Sorry to interrupt.

Well, I have an opportunity to do that.

Yes, you sorry, uh sorry to interrupt.

Yes, you will have an opportunity to uh to provide another comment after the city has done it.

Um I also wanted to ask uh Tys Norton.

Uh Tice, uh, can you just tell the board your position with the city real quick?

Yeah, I'm the uh park operations manager, uh formerly a forester for the city.

Um and yeah, I over and currently I forestry is one of the subdivisions of parks.

Yeah.

So when you were you previously were in the role of the assistant urban forester, is that right?

Correct.

And so back in 2024, did you receive um the email you're seeing on the screen now?

Correct.

And um, so at that time.

Well, you received an email from Mr.

Is it Shell?

Um, and he said, concerning this Monterey Pine in our backyard at 814 Martin Street.

I think that the universe is telling me to leave the tree alone.

You, Andrew, Urban Lumberjacks, and Amanda Gates have all indicated that the tree is substantially healthy and that there is no evidence of movement.

And so at that point, did the homeowner in 2024 go forward with the permit?

No, um, yes, we did have a back and forth.

Um, so they could answer your question.

No, we did have a back and forth.

He applied for the permit.

We talked about potentially getting an arborus report or not.

Um, it was after this point that chose not to pursue an Arborist report.

And I did get instructions to um shred the check and the application.

Okay, thank you.

So staff recommendation is to deny the appeal by Mr.

Shell.

There's been no indication um that the tree is unhealthy.

It is a mature Monterey Pine that the city council has um encouraged the retention of those trees and the preservation of them.

And so therefore, staff is requesting that the appeal be denied, um, and that you uphold the denial of the tree removal permit.

Thank you.

Um at this point, uh, I would like to open it up for public comment.

And you will have a chance after the public comment for the first thing.

You're right.

What?

Sorry, question questions for the city.

I was jumping the gun.

No, I I don't believe we had any other conversation about the tree until the most recent application, and I was not in my I was in a new position, so Mike's the being our our only forester, um, he handled this application.

Um I did not, just to be clear, I did not see the tree uh most recently, so I I don't know if that couldn't I can't personally say notice any changes with the condition.

So we I have to lean on Mike um for that assessment.

Yeah.

In 20 yeah, 2024, I don't know if we started our conversation in 2023 or not, but yeah, that was the last time I've seen the tree, yeah.

What I'm trying to understand is if the person has a tree in a no, it's completely golden.

The metal tree.

But it's kind of a curious situation where there's something where we'll sell it and cost name.

Yeah, you're anyone who walked them.

So I'm just trying to understand where that fall in the rate.

So, plus, so this this hazard rating is actually an outdated system.

Um now barbers are using the tree risk assessment matrix.

Um, so on this, the hazard rating could be relatively high.

If you look at the failure potential, um, the tree, the tree canopy has a lot of weight to it.

And if you look at the rate the failure potential rating um for a tree that size, it's almost always going to be on a on a higher scale because of the size of the canopy.

And the size of the diameter of the tree is going to be a little bit higher for that size of a tree because of the size of the tree overall the diameter size.

Like on this one see it's a 33 inch pine so you look at the overall size of the part it's going to be a four which is going to really bring the rating up really high.

And due to the fact there's a house within striking distance to the tree that would bring the rating up to a constant um target rating, which would make the overall rating really high.

Mr Schell uh presented um some thoughts or some opinions or some data about uh the number of of pines in the neighborhood and said that um I mean just an estimate um that 10% of the pines in the neighborhood have uh have fallen over in the some last period of time.

I mean do you know any does that does do you do you have figures like that?

Does the city have figures like that?

Uh no we we don't have figures.

We do keep a tree inventory um but um I can't say that we've ever analyzed it to that effect of what position how many has fallen um more of ours is maintaining the forest in terms of responding to trees down trees uh and maintaining our own trees but I can't say we've ever had the time to analyze but it would be really interesting to if we had the time and the means to do something along those lines absolutely that'd be really very meaningful for sure.

Is it so let I'm just now it's it's a science question so to speak not a whether the data that Mr Shell presented is accurate or not.

I'm not I'm going to different direction but it's still sort of on the same thing.

Scientifically is there any is there any argument or possibility that particular neighborhoods with the soil the way it is in particular neighborhoods might be more susceptible to trees falling does that even make any sense and I know you don't have the research on it I'm just asking hypothetically does that make sense.

Yeah I mean it's there's there's no question uh Monterey Vista skyline is is clay.

There's a lot of clay up there's a um a bit with a very a very shallow top soil layer monterey pines have a shallow root system um it is very hard for them to penetrate and get deep roots into this clay soil.

So um it is a fact um absolutely that that's what things that makes them a little bit more susceptible.

Obviously they grow very tall they could be very top heavy um we could have very significant rains as we've had last few years and that's what makes these trees horrible.

And we always take into account the soil you know on site and look at the roots and determine you know if it has enough anchorage in the roots to anchor itself properly.

So so remind me again um approximately how old is this tree and what is the science say about how long a Monterey pine is is viable I'd say roughly 6070 years old.

The relatively short lived species the short lived mean 80 years.

Okay.

Yeah.

59 year old so we've got a 69 year old tree and um again these are just averages I get it um but expecting it to to be viable uh until 80 would be an average way of potentially have a tree this size that's only 50 years old.

I've counted 40, 50 year old tree with the rings, and it's due to amount, you know, amount of water and nutrients on site.

So it really depends.

You'd have to count the rings.

Yeah, which you can't do.

Yeah, no, I get it.

I get it.

How much does it?

I have so many questions.

We have a good one.

Sorry, I just started my semester.

I teach at the Middlebury Institute, and so I'm full of questions for my students.

Sorry.

Um this level three assessment.

How much does it cost?

I'm not really sure to be honest.

Okay.

We have so the city of Monterey, we have a resistograph machine that we use on city trees.

Right.

But the city, I just want to make sure I understood the city itself.

Uh I think you said that a level three assessment is the homeowner's responsibility.

That is not something the city uh provides.

Is that correct?

Yeah, that's correct.

Okay.

Um I guess I do have one more question um for the city.

And I'm not trying to presuppose a decision from from my colleagues with this question.

It's I'm just trying to think through it.

Um the question of alternative planting, right?

In other words, remove the tree, and then there's the two to one issue.

Does that have to be on the exact same property?

Yeah, our replant requirement um requires that the replant has to have have on that on that same property.

We do there are very few exceptions where we let people plant in the city green belt or what have you.

There is also a uh we do have a payment in lieu fee.

I don't think that's being proposed in this one, but uh but for a regular permit, um, if the permit was approved, we do allow the opportunity for people to do the payment in lieu of planting on their property.

So that would be a a fee to the city, and then we would put that in account for us to plant city trees.

Does that answer your question?

It does, thank you.

I don't have any more questions right now.

Okay.

Um has the city rested its case.

Okay.

And so then if Mr.

Um Shell would like to question witnesses, cross-examine, you can do that now.

I uh what about public comment?

That would come after.

Okay, thank you.

I'm not really 50 years.

Oh, okay.

All right.

Okay.

Okay.

Yeah, you guys don't meet very often, I noticed, so yeah.

Well, thanks for so much for for taking the time to meet today.

So, um, you said a couple things when you were going through your slides that I wanted to go back to.

If you don't mind, I just I'm sorry to interrupt just before we do this.

Uh, if you could keep your comments uh to uh seven minutes.

Oh, I can do that.

Okay, thank you.

Um anyway, you said that the um determination is based solely on the health of the tree.

Do you remember that?

You are chilling.

Yes, sir.

Um the cross examination period is not to examine attorneys, you can cross the examination.

The the attorney gave a presentation, the attorney did not give testimony and attorney argument is not evidence, it's just argument.

And so um if you have witnesses you'd like to question on cross-examination, you may do so, but it's not appropriate to do that of the lawyer.

Well, let me just go ahead and just point out something because you know the statement was made that the um termination is made solely on health, and that's um if you read the the city code, it's health, and then um hazard, and your price is nodding.

I mean, so I just want to make sure we weren't mischaracterizing that.

Uh and the other thing, you know, when I was talking about the tree, you know, trees falling in via Parizo.

Um, I wanted to kind of give a shout out to the city.

You guys have done a great job of replanting up there, so um, so it's it's really nice.

Um I guess I just really have one basic question, which is Mike.

Could the tree fall?

I can see uh based off the based off the roots and looking, you know, at the time of inspection, I didn't see anything obvious, but um conditions change as weather changes as time goes on.

So it felt like a non-answer.

I mean, like if we had a big storm like we had a couple years ago, and if we had winds, I mean, it could always it always trees always have the potential to fall over.

Yeah, thank you.

That's um that's really the main thing I wanted to say.

All right, thank you.

And finally, time for public comment.

Good morning.

I'm Vicky Williams, and I'm a neighbor of Charlie and Liz.

I live down the street on Martin.

And three years ago, I went through what Charlie and Liz are going through now.

I like Charlie and Liz had two licensed arborists tell me that a dangerous tree needed to be removed as when it falls due to its lean, it would land on my home directed towards the upstairs bedroom.

So began the journey through the maze that Charlie and Liz are now in.

This is the beginning of daily fear and anxiety, which does not leave until the trees removed.

You get to have that every day.

In the city code as I interpret it, nothing is mentioned about homeowner safety until you get to the appeals board section on health, public health, safety, and welfare.

All prior codes refer to the safety of the trees, the structures, which to me makes it an automatic denial by the city forester.

I don't see they have any option.

So begins the expense and the personal time, moving forward, fear-based.

When fear is involved, you find ways to make ends meet.

In my case, we were given an exception to have the tree removed at the cost of 12,479 that included the fees in the tree removal.

This was three years ago, so the cost I'm sure have gone up.

Now, add the time, the dollars that it is costing for the city staff and others for this tree for one old pine tree.

In Mount Ray, we live in an aging forest with the majority of trees being on the properties before the tree city granted the permit to build the homes.

Most trees are older than our homes.

We are now in a place where many aging leaning trees are beginning to be hazardous to human lives and homes when they fall.

Most homes in Monterey are 50 to 60 plus years old, and the trees are like 70, 80 or more.

This was back in the time when this was all approved.

It sounded really good.

Due to the changes of the aging forest, global warming issues, and insurances companies dropping clients in this area, we need to adjust the tree management with a team plan to meet the safety and financial needs going forward for homeowners, human safety, city property, and more healthy, thriving forest, not just for us, but for also for our children, grandchildren, future homeowners, and all citizens of the city of Monterey.

I can't help but wonder what it will be like in the future when denied dangerous trees start to fall, taking out homes and or lives of the owners, most homes in this area are over a million plus in cost.

Then there's the liability cost of human lives.

Will insurance companies decide it will be to their advantage to sue the city rather than to foot the bill.

Taking advantage of all of the available denial documentation here today to help them move forward with a lawsuit.

Now, two years ago, a healthy pine tree, and I we have the forester out, walk the property every year, land it on my garage.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you for your contribution.

All right, we are going to uh open it up now for uh for board members uh to have uh an open deliberation um about uh let me just check before we do that if there's anyone online that wants to make a be great yeah seeing no hands raised, anyone in else in the audience?

Oh the hand just went up just a minute.

At least yeah, I just want to say that we cannot hear the board members except Mr.

Glenzer.

Could you please speak up just a little?

We cannot hear the board the members of the commission except for Mr.

Glenzer.

So board members need to use their mic.

Are you guys using them to be able to hear on the is your mic on?

So you'll need okay, Ms.

Rash.

If you had a comment, go ahead.

No, I have no comment.

Thank you.

Thank you for letting us know.

Now you're on.

All right, we're on again.

So uh back to the board for uh open deliberation and conversation about this particular case.

I'm I'll I I'm gonna just start uh with somewhat repeating at least part of what we've been hearing, because I think it's really important uh in this in this.

Um happy if any of other board members, you know, want to take issue with what I'm saying.

There, you know, there's a lot in here in this conversation about uh code and whether the code is correct or not.

Um there's a lot of conversation here about lawsuits um and liability between city and its set citizens.

Um I think it's really important for us to remember that that's really that isn't our job.

Our job isn't to make a decision based on whether we think the code is correct or not, or whether we think what we think about liability one way or the other, and I I think it's really important.

I will I just wanted to put that out there because I do think it's really important.

Uh I think those kinds of considerations can allow us if we're taking them into consideration to maybe go down a path that we shouldn't.

I just wanted to say that.

Yeah, I agree.

I just want to make sure I'm tracking uh so the legal standard that we're going through is here on page 32.

And we're going through those elements right there.

Is that those four elements?

Correct.

So if you want to go through those, I don't know if that's the way to do it.

Just those four elements.

Well, can I just clarify one thing?

The code says in addition to those four elements, the board also takes into account the standards of the city forester denial.

So it's not just those four.

Right.

So technically it starts on page 31.

I should have said, yeah.

The bullet number one is on page 31 and the rest is on page 32.

Yeah, and I think with regards to that, I mean, uh it's really important for me that both sides, both sides actually agree that by all reasonable standards at this point, with level one investigation that this is a healthy tree.

That's an agreement.

Right?

The city, and for me, the city forester has done his job.

Thank you.

Right.

Um, I don't think there's anything in question about that personally.

I agree.

I agree.

Um, so the four elements that we have within our purview that we can you know think about is uh visual prominence, uh, aesthetic uh beauty, um, evidence of uh anxiety, uh, concern by the tree.

Um, and then the fourth is um some kind of a if we were to go that route, some kind of a mitigation measure on it.

Excuse me, but you're saying the four elements, but yes, in addition to the elements that are preceded paragraph.

Yeah, I'm yes, I think it's important to uh sir, the public comment is closed and the case is closed.

So we'd appreciate um letting the board have its deliberation without interruption.

So any thoughts from uh board members about this.

Yeah, the health of it, I think was very important because that's number one.

Um I do have a little bit of a concern of the age of the tree.

I didn't realize there's only maybe a 10-year lifespan.

Oh, sorry.

Sorry.

There's only maybe another 10 years if that's relevant.

I don't know.

Um, yeah, I I asked them again.

Let's it th that's just a rough estimate.

Right.

I mean, it's the reason I asked the question, but let's I mean it is just a rough estimate of our best guess right at this point that it's sixty-nine or sixty-five years old, and they do have a let's call it an average lifespan of around 80.

And maybe it'll live to be a hundred and fifty.

But I didn't really mean that.

I'm just but we also had testimony that pruning could be beneficial and help mitigate the possibility of the tree falling.

Board member Hoffmeister, any thoughts?

Um, yeah, I guess uh the I'm uh like I said, I think you had you asked good very good questions because I think that is relevant to the the lifespan of the tree, and if if it if you were to take the tree down and you have to replace this, I understand two to one.

So you actually are kind of like uh having more trees as opposed to less.

Now, granted, the ones you plant won't be as big as this tree right here, of course.

Um, and uh I don't know that it was if it's it's I don't know if I can say precisely whether or not you know I'm gonna look at the second element, the aesthetic beauty of the area will be diminished one way or the other.

I think anytime we use a tree, that's that's that's a loss, but would it be, you know, how much would it be, especially if you're replacing it with two other trees?

How much um is this aesthetic value go uh the area go down?

Uh I'm I'm not sure.

Uh yeah, I mean I think that's a good point.

I mean when I and all we have are the photos.

Yeah, right.

That's the only evidence or the only thing we can really deal with when I look at the photos.

Um, from what we can what I can see, the canopy writ large, not just the tree.

The canopy is pretty good.

It's pretty thick.

Yeah, right.

Um I'm assuming people in the neighborhood had the opportunity to comment if they wanted to, uh one way or the other, and and say this is gonna bring down my property value or it's gonna it's gonna hurt um other uh other property nearby.

I've I haven't I haven't heard that at all.

Yeah, we didn't get any evidence about anything like that.

Um yeah, I'm sorry, go ahead.

I was gonna say, and definitely element three, we we've heard this, the anxiety anxiety, I've heard that repeatedly, uh, by um folks testifying today and how that could be a stressor, and you know, having that hang over you sort of like Democly's sword, uh is kind of um ominous to a certain extent.

So that is somewhat worrisome, and that it makes people hard for people to uh enjoy uh their home to the fullest.

I will acknowledge though that when you buy the house, you did see the trees there, and it was a large tree when you bought it and you kind of had to understand that when you buy a property that hey, it comes with this with this um with this uh these trees on it.

So that's it's kind of a you know, we make we make choices in life.

Uh but to have that, you know, especially late.

I don't know.

Some people have been here longer than me, but lately, you know, these storms get pretty bad and do uh see that trees, you know, swaying back and forth over your your property, it's uh it's pretty un it leaves you a little uneasy at times.

Any other thoughts?

From the board?

I I do have a proposal to make, but I just wanna if there's other thoughts at this point.

Um for me, so number one, the preservation of the city's uh canopy is um really really important to me.

It's really important to the city.

It's in the city code.

It's important to all of us, it's important to Mr.

Shell, and and his neighbors.

Um sorry, do I need to speak up?

All right.

So far this uh meeting, no one's heard a word I said.

And no one said anything until right now.

Sorry.

Um, you know, that that preservation of the canopy, I think is something we all share.

Everybody in this room, I'm sure shares that.

Um the you know, for me, the the canopy cover and the visual prominence that that tree affords.

Um uh, you know, you got you fellow board members, you know, I've been on the board for what three years, and uh, and we get um we get the we get we get tree appeals.

Uh it's probably the most it's probably the most frequent thing that we do, actually.

And uh, you know, I would say compare compare to compared to other cases, the kind of the prominence and the visual beauty of the tree given the canopy and such, I I think is re I I just personally think it's relatively low, um, in terms of uh being a very important visually prominent tree.

Um, yeah, the the lifespan thing, again, I know we're just we're doing our best.

We're doing our best uh to do that.

You know, for me, if the answer would have been more along the lines of, you know, it's a it's a 35-year-old tree that it has the likelihood of of living another 40 years or 45 years, that would matter to me.

Um, and so I you know, my my proposal on this, or my I guess I'm making a motion.

Uh I I think I think everybody's done their job here.

I think uh Mr.

Shell uh has been doing his job for the last two to three years on this thing.

I think he's put a lot of investment into that tree and neighboring trees.

I think everybody's done their job here wonderfully.

I I want to thank the city for it.

You're doing your job, but I do think the level of anxiety on this, um, and because the canopy issue.

I mean, I appreciate what the city attorney said about we can't just keep cutting down these these leaning trees.

We can't well otherwise we're gonna have no trees left.

It's one of the reasons we have the appeals board.

It is.

It's one of these or change the darn code, right?

That's not so I I just I my my um I uh my move on this is that uh we uh we uh overturn uh the denial um by the city um with uh appropriate replacement.

Uh uh what whatever the city and the homeowner decides is an appropriate replacement.

Right now I think it says two in the decision, the draft decision.

I think it says two to one with those two going on the property.

Did I get do I remember that correctly?

That's right.

Well, I'm I would stick with that and say that's really what we want to do.

Um but once again, because this can be difficult, I think for for us on the board.

Um we are not I am not by proposing that saying their city did anything wrong here, right?

I think you did your jobs just as you're supposed to.

So that's that's my move that uh we do overturn the decision.

We allow the uh removal of the tree with the proper replacement, which is two to one on the same property.

That's my motion.

Oh, it's I would second that motion.

If I could just ask um for specificity, that the replacement is with the 15 gallon size Monterey pine trees.

Is that what's written there?

In the alternatives, yeah.

Approve the removal of the tree with a two to one replacement ratio of a fifteen gallon size monterey pine trees.

That's a good thank you.

Yeah, I was gonna say, thank you.

Thank you for that uh detail because we we have heard testimony, fellow board members that uh the property is the property has a lot of uh pines on it.

The homeowner said that uh he worries about putting two more monterey pines on that particular property.

He mentioned uh or asserted that he'd be more than willing to put two more trees into the but maybe one of them isn't a monterey pine.

So what do you want to do about it, board?

What do you want to do?

Uh for me it's I mean, I think as long as one is a monterey pine, I don't think both have to be monterey pine on the wedding two.

I'm not sure what the reasoning was why not the two monitor pines.

They don't seem to take that much room.

I I didn't hear that in the testimony that's really specific on the.

All right.

So um we'll so yeah, so what the what uh would the best so my motion is, thank you.

My my motion is that uh um we uh deny or we overturn uh the decision and we um take we allow the uh removal of the tree exactly as written with the two monterey pines, fifteen gallon uh replacement, and that would be our decision.

Cause we don't as you're just saying, the reason I'm changing uh board member Fritz is you're right.

We don't have really the wherewithal right now here in this room to between the three of us come up with the other tree.

Right, since that's what the city recommended, right?

And that's what the city recommended.

So that's my motion.

Do you want to second that motion?

All right.

I vote.

Okay, we'll take a roll call vote.

Uh board member Fritz.

Aye.

Board member Hoffmeister?

Yes.

And Chair Glenzer?

Yes.

Okay, the motion is passed three to zero.

All right.

Thank you all for your time today.

And uh we're adjourned.

We actually have two more things before we adjourn.

Well, if you've heard me.

If everyone else would like to get out, that's fine.

Okay, is there any board member comments at this time?

No.

No comments.

Okay, now we are adjourned at eleven o eight.

Thank you so much.

Okay, okay.