Okay, yep, no, I just wanted to make sure everybody was there.

Hello, everyone, nice to see you.

So glad that we're here together finally again.

Sorry to be a little late, but I drove in from Santa Rosa.

So good evening.

Welcome to the March 12th, 2026 City of Napa regular meeting for the Cultural Heritage Commission.

And the call to order is our number one item.

I would like to call this meeting to order and ask staff to conduct roll call, please.

Commissioner McKinney.

Commissioner Rasmussen.

Commissioner Wesson Hare and Chair Van Giesen.

Here.

Great.

And I have Commissioner Tweeka noted as absent for today.

Yes.

Noted.

Now we will rise for the Pledge of Allegiance.

I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands one nation under Godiscible with liberty and justice for all.

Thank you.

Now we're going into item three, the agenda review and supplemental reports.

The Cultural Heritage Commission commit conducts all meetings in accordance with the Alf M Brown Act, California Government Code Sections 54950.

And pursuant to the city rules of order for Cultural Heritage Commission meetings, which is policy resolution number 10.

Staff, are there any changes to our evening's agenda?

Yes, we actually have two items.

So routed to you this evening is a public comment letter received on March 5th, but it's dated in the email March 4th with the attachments to a public comment.

So you'll have that available to you from Maureen Trip.

And then the second part, there's some changes that need to occur to the amendments or to the minutes for the last regular CHC meeting.

So staff's recommending that you postpone consideration of the meeting minutes once we get to that part of the agenda so we can make corrections and bring it back to a regular meeting agenda for the next CHC meeting.

Okay.

So we need to make a motion on that.

Right?

Yes.

Okay.

Very good.

Um the other commissioners have any proposed changes to the agenda at this time.

No.

Okay, then we'll get to that when we get to the minutes, correct?

Yes.

Or would you like us to just do that when we get to the when we get there?

Exactly.

So uh with no changes from commission, we'll get to that when we do the meeting minutes.

And at this time we have public comment.

Public comment provides an opportunity for members of the public to directly address the Cultural Heritage Commission on items that are not otherwise noted on the agenda.

Um each speaker's comments will be limited to three minutes, please, and we'll comply with the rules of order for the Cultural Heritage Commission meetings.

Um, do we have members of the public who would like to or have presented cards or wish to provide comments?

I see a member of the public.

So please uh come forth and uh state your name and address, please, for us as well.

You already know who I am.

Hi, I'm Maureen Tripp.

And I live at uh 438 Coomb Street.

So thanks for giving me a minute to meet you all in person.

Um I'm here tonight to follow up on a conversation that we started last October, and I recently took this proposal to the City Council.

They've directed me back to this commission with a specific request.

Will this commission ask staff to place a discussion regarding the expansion of a historic district signage program on a future agenda?

Uh I know there's no budget for this, so I'd like to address a couple of things.

I I see this as a unique window of opportunity.

Uh the city is currently investing millions into our neighborhood.

I'm on Coombs between Oak and Laurel, so Fuller Park, Abajo, I'm sure you know it.

Um five and a half million for the Coomb Street renovation, and uh with Measure G funding, they added another hundred thousand dollars to do traffic calming.

Uh we're also spending about five and a half million on Fuller Park and the Riverside Drive paving project is coming up.

So I think it's important in the context of things to look at these capital improvement projects in the Abaho Napa Fuller Park uh area.

Uh I was told that the 2020 Calistoga District project with the historic signage uh happened largely because it was attached to a capital improvement project.

By acting now, we can frame this as part of the city's broader beautification and connectivity efforts, much like new signage downtown approaching downtown.

Beautification, there's landscaping going on the mediation.

These are things that we might not have had funding for before, but I've been to both of the Measure G Oversight committee meetings to see how they're approaching the budget.

And it looks to me like public works and parks in Rec are able to add some enhancements.

It's it's incredibly important that this money is available now.

I'm asking you to start this discussion with staff because uh there will be resources needed to get this done.

Uh probably a feasibility study and coordination with public works and it's a lot.

I know it's a lot.

Um, but I also think that since Abajo Napa and Fuller Park are already on the public register, that true preservation and identity happens at this local level.

Um it's not just about the history, it's about neighborhood pride.

What a gift this would be back to the neighborhood.

What a show of neighborhood support after all these massive construction projects.

Uh but it's also about heritage tourism and completing the work that the city has already started.

So I would really appreciate your support for this idea.

I think it comes at a really good time in the city when the city is doing looking to do more to give back to local community.

So thank you very much for the consideration.

Sorry I can't stay for your meeting.

Let me just say a few words if I could.

Is that all right?

Or do I need to save that till but I can't.

Um Do you want me to save that to the end for our comments?

Yeah, we can't discuss the items.

No worries.

I'll let you know that please read the minutes because I was there to start that whole process.

So I can't wait to talk and meet with you about more things.

Thanks a lot.

So there's a lot more to dive in and there sure is.

And I was on the BPAC committee.

So I appreciate the work you all do.

Very good.

Thank you for your time.

Appreciate you being here.

And uh making a public comment.

I think the city is excited.

Thank you.

Bye-bye.

Thanks.

Have a good night.

Okay, then.

Um, seeing no other members of the public at this time, we'll move on to um item five, which is the consent calendar, which has to do with the motion just to close his.

Oh, yes, my apologies.

Just trying to move the meeting along.

Do I have a motion to close the public comments, seeing no other comments at this time?

I make a motion to close the public comments.

And a second.

Very good.

Thank you.

Now we can take it.

Oh, yes, I guess there is a vote.

All votes.

The first was uh first and a second.

And do I have a vote?

All in favor?

I.

I'm really trying to move the meeting along, actually.

Because sometimes I go too slow.

So now, after that is all taken care of, we'll move on to item five.

Um it's the staff's recommendation uh to move item five approval of the Cultural Heritage Commission regular meetings for October 9th to the next regular scheduled meeting on May 14th, 2026.

So that has to do with minutes.

Um is that when you're going to be going into this just so we can include this in the motion?

Does this become a part of that?

Or is that something different?

No, no, so if there's direction of staff, that would come at the end of the agenda.

Okay.

For this one, we're just asking postponement of postpone the for that October 9th.

Okay, very good.

Um at this time.

Can we make a motion to do so?

I don't think there's any comments, so we could directly go to that.

Is that where the commission is, or do you have some statements in this item for consent uh number five calendar, consent calendar?

No statements, any comments from anyone?

Do I have a motion to uh move the meeting minutes from October 9th to May 4th at this time for discussion then a motion?

I make a motion to uh review the uh minutes at our next meeting, which is in May, if it so happens at our next meeting.

Very good.

Next meeting.

And do I have a second?

Very good.

All in favor?

Aye.

Aye.

Okay, thank you.

Uh moving to item six.

There are no consent hearings.

Uh there are no public hearings or appeals.

So we'll move on to the administrative reports.

Item eight.

Um administrative reports include reports and recommendations from the city staff that do not require a public hearing prior to action by the commission.

The Commission may take action if the agenda description provides for it.

Only Cultural Heritage Commission may authorize public input for these items.

And so tonight we have item 8A, which is the annual review of the policy resolution number 10, the Ralph M.

Brown Act, conflict of interest laws, and we'll now hear from the staff on a report and a presentation.

Very good.

Thank you.

Thank you.

This is the annual review of policy resolution number 10.

Brown Act requirements and conflict of interest laws for the Cultural Heritage Commission.

Theops, I went too fast there.

So the these three items, the uh policy resolution, uh the Brown Act, and the conflict of interest laws, uh, they all share a common goal.

The goal is to foster public trust and confidence in government.

Uh seems to me to be in a particularly important goal nowadays, given the political climate here in the state and the nation.

So makes the annual review even more uh significant, I guess.

Uh the way that these things uh foster public trust and confidence, uh, each one has a uh a particular uh uh method, I guess.

Uh policy resolution 10, which is a city document establishes uh rules of conduct and procedures for uh members of each commission, including the Cultural Heritage Commission, that they're required to follow both uh in their individual conduct and as a uh a commission body.

Uh the Brown Act is a state law that requires uh essentially that government be conducted in the open and not be conducted in secret.

Uh and the conflict of interest laws require that officials act in the interests of the community and not out of self-interest.

Uh all these uh things that we're discussing are uh in described in policy resolution number 10, and I would just ask you I uh you should all have a copy of that policy resolution.

Uh there it is.

Uh and most of the questions that you're ever going to come up with or ever be faced with uh are going to be uh probably be answered somewhere in that document.

So and to the extent they're not, then of course, you know, you can look to staff or the city attorney's office uh for additional guidance.

But that's a really important document.

And so you you know it it really uh pays to have a look at it and sort of refresh your uh understanding of it every so often.

Uh starting with policy resolution 10, uh like I said, it provides rules for both individual conduct and for the Commission's collective conduct.

Uh and uh the rules for individual conduct address how you conduct yourself as a you know uh a representative of the city.

Uh you need to conduct yourself uh with professional respect and civility, things that are you know really make common sense, right?

Uh uh and oblig you have an obligation to attend each meeting and be prepared to fully discuss each of the issues on the agenda.

And I will add to that from the the point of staff perspective, and we do our agenda forecasting and understanding um attendance with these meetings, it it is very important to us and and sometimes crucial in timing of processing projects that we know whether or not commissioners will be in attendance because we have quorum issues at times if we don't get full attendance.

So knowing well in advance, just kind of the considerations that you make, and many of you do this let us know well in advance of absences.

It's very much appreciated.

Um but should you have any questions about that or any questions about forecasting and as we plan for meetings to ensure attendance, feel free to always reach out to staff and we'll be able to assist you with that.

Um but just kind of reiterating what Dan has to say in that last part.

It's very helpful to us and a lot of the time with processing projects.

Just in case we need to tweak if we have to call a special meeting to session, we'll know to do that.

I would just add that given the uh commission is considering going to a uh more infrequent meeting schedule.

It's probably going to be even more important, you know, because the meetings are going to be spaced apart and so uh to stay on top of the business of the commission.

Uh keeping staff apprised of attendance would be very helpful.

Uh so the other part of the policy resolution 10 is the rules for the commission's conduct as a body, it's collective conduct.

Um two points about that.

The first one refers back to conducting everyone's uh person with professional respect and civility.

You know, again, common sense and everyone seems to always uh be very good at following that, and we appreciate it.

I know staff appreciates it.

Uh and then in sections eight, nine, and ten of policy resolution ten, uh those are very important and helpful.

Uh section eight addresses the order of business for regular meetings.

Uh and you know, for example, the some of the questions that arose just a few minutes ago about uh making a motion whether to do it now or when the consent calendar comes up, those are the kinds of things that uh are detailed in policy resolution ten in section eight and section nine, which relates to the conduct of meetings.

Uh you'll find that um policy resolution 10 vests the chair with pretty significant discretion for running meetings.

And so while the uh policy resolution may set out an order, the chair has you know some flexibility to manage the meeting themselves and uh minor variations from what's in policy resolution 10 are not going to result in you know any uh setting aside of commission actions, probably things like that.

So uh keep in mind the chair has discretion, uh reasonable discretion to manage the meetings.

I think my brain was still out on the freeway when I was asking about when to approve those minutes or thank you.

Yeah.

But always good for a reminder and a refresher, certainly.

Yeah, and yeah like I said, I re I read policy resolution 10 in you know, not every month, but with some regularity, and it never fails to remind me of you know some things that I may have forgotten or uh had come up recently and I couldn't bring to mind what the rule was.

So a little light reading before you go to bed at night.

And it'll help you sleep too, possibly.

Yes, exactly.

Thank you.

Thanks.

Yeah.

And then uh section 10 uh addresses commission voting and the you know, making a motion, voting, how to count votes, you know, what constitutes a quorum, things like that.

So again, very helpful information.

Oops.

Boy, this thing is touchy.

Oh.

Oh, that's what happened.

Okay.

Uh where are we?

I'm moving on to the Brown Act.

There we go.

Uh so the Brown Act uh is the state law that uh requires the government be conducted in the open and not in secret.

Uh and uh the primary, I guess, focus or rule is to prevent secret meetings of you know, council members that then collude or commissioners that would be used to collude to, you know, give the impression of public meetings when actually they're operating in private, right?

Um oddly that struck me uh when uh Commissioner McKinney came in and said that she had ridden in with Commissioner Rasmussen and I said it was just the two of you, right?

Uh yeah.

Now see, if there were three of you in the car, you would have had a quorum uh of the commission.

And if you had mentioned or discussed any commission business, you could have been in violation of the Brown Act, right?

So that's a a ready example I guess of of how inadvertent violations of the Brown Act might occur.

They wouldn't have said a word to each other.

Of course not right yes the size would you might yeah yeah I wasn't suggesting there was any malintent but uh it just struck me that that's exactly the kind of example that you know where people can mistakenly run afoul of the rules right so uh yeah or informal meetings with three of a majority of the commission and that doesn't mean that the three of you you know if you run into each other at the if three of you run into each other at the coffee shop you can't sit at the table and and have coffee you just cannot discuss commission uh items or conduct yourselves in a way that could be construed as deliberating on an item that is going to come before the commission right so it's it's a completely gray area that is totally fact intensive in terms of deciding when there's been a violation or not but it's obviously very important and can lead frankly to civil or criminal charges so you know you need to be aware of that.

To my knowledge in the few years I've been on this commission, I've never heard of any infraction with the city of Napa.

Do you know if there's ever been any in the history of I'm not aware of any of this was curious.

Yeah I am outside council you know so I don't actually work in the city attorney's office.

But I've been here doing this a long time I've never heard of anything like that.

However I another one of my cities uh recently there was uh some collusion you know and it it wasn't inadvertent and uh it resulted in processes that nobody wants to be a part of.

So and uh I obviously you you uh you should all feel free uh with like the chair to ask questions if you know you have a question about anything here so there are a few exceptions to the informal meeting rule that I was just talking about um like I said individual contacts informal contacts or conversations between commissioners uh and other people are uh allowed if three of you are attending a conference or a similar gathering you're allowed to attend those things.

The important thing always goes back to whether or not you're having conversations or behaving in a way that could be construed as deliberating on an item that's going to come before you're allowed to attend meetings of other legislative bodies or community meetings or social events.

The key is not it's not against the the Brown Act or the rules for three of you to be in the same place at the same time.

It's what you do when you're there right so that's that's the the key point the third item is the conflict of interest laws there are uh a couple of important uh sources of rules here uh the political reform act is one and then there's uh common law rules about conflict of interest uh the political reform act is part of the government code and again all this is in policy resolution number 10 I'm not giving you any information that's not in there already a commissioner is not allowed to participate in or influence a city decision that may have a material effect on a financial interest of the commissioner and this includes uh making uh contracts with the city or if you have uh a source of income or gifts someone has given you gifts that um you would not be allowed to participate in a decision that uh affects that person uh these are pretty in a way they're kind of common sense you know I mean you uh you would think it probably comes to mind in a situation uh if the situation comes up uh it's the kind of thing that I would expect everyone to start to think and have questions about uh kind of reminds me that you uh what do they say uh everything you need to know you learned in kindergarten you know and uh so those kind of uh moral questions that come up uh are the bases for

I mean, you uh you would think it probably comes to mind in a situation uh if the situation comes up, it's the kind of thing that I would expect everyone to start to think and have questions about.

Kind of reminds me that you uh what do they say, uh everything you need to know you learned in kindergarten, you know, and uh so those kind of uh moral questions that come up are the basis for these things.

Uh you're probably all familiar with the rule that uh if you own property within 500 feet of uh uh uh you know a property or a project that you're uh deliberating on or you you're not allowed to vote on it.

Uh same thing applies with business entities uh or investments.

Uh if the com if you're an officer or director or employee of a business and that business has an application before you, then you would be required to recuse yourself.

Um important point uh a financial interest of the commissioner may include the financial interest of your spouse or a dependent.

So that uh extends the circle a little bit for you.

Uh those are all political reform act-based uh rules.

There's also the common law rule about uh appearance of bias.

Uh it's based on the notion, which again is common sense that uh the public has a right to a fair, unbiased and impartial decision-making body.

Uh and this applies not just to financial decisions like the Political Reform Act does, but to uh non-financial decisions.

Uh any time there's a sense or someone might reasonably believe that uh you have a bias with respect to an item that's come before you, then it's up to you to consider whether or not that person's perception is reasonable or not.

And it's up to you to decide actually whether or not you feel like you can be impartial.

Uh it's going to come down to you to decide whether you need to recuse yourself in these kinds of situations.

Uh again, you know, the most of the time it's probably going to be pretty clear if you have questions about it, um, you can come to staff or contact the city attorney's office, or you can contact the uh FPPC, the state the state agency that provides advice on these things.

Uh because the penalties for conflict of interest can be severe, civil or criminal penalties, then you know, where you do have a question, it probably makes sense to seek advice on it.

And if you seek the advice of the Fair Political Practice Commission and get what's called a formal opinion from them, that opinion could immunize you from civil or criminal liability if in the event that it turns out you know you you mistakenly believed you didn't have a conflict, but it was determined that you did.

So that's a good thing to know.

Uh, you know, if you really have concerns, then you should consider contacting the FPPC for a formal opinion.

Uh and that's uh a little bit of a time-consuming process, it can take several weeks.

So, you know, keep that in mind if there's a serious question and it looks like you are gonna need some time to sort through it.

Uh the other thing about the common law doctrine is that it's intended to preclude even the appearance of bias, you know, it it and courts have been known to hold that even if there was not or if it couldn't be established that there was uh uh a bias or a conflict of interest, that the appearance of bias should have you know uh guided the person or the officer to recuse themselves or to uh avoid that conflict.

Uh again, that's a call that you're gonna wind up having to make uh and oftentimes if you feel like the someone who may be complaining about a potential conflict of interest uh if their perception is reasonable, even if you know it to be true, you know, you that doesn't mean that you can't um recuse yourself if you feel like that would promote public confidence in the process, right?

So uh let's see.

It uh in the event that you decide you have a conflict, uh you sh need to recuse yourself from the action and make no attempt to influence the decision.

Pretty common sense, right?

Um and the rules and the process for recusal, again, it's in policy resolution ten.

Uh you would identify your financial interest or the source of potential bias, uh and then leave the room uh while it's being considered unless the item is on the consent calendar, in which case you should leave the dais, but you don't have to leave the room.

Uh and of course refrain from attempting to influence the decision in any way.

So uh there are a couple of exceptions to the rule against attempting to influence the decision.

Uh if you are a design professional uh uh engineer or uh architect or something like that, you are able to represent your client before the commission.

You wouldn't be involved in the vote, of course, but uh you could, you know, you would be recusing yourself from the vote, but in that case you you can, if you have a client, you can come to the dais and explain the work that you've done on behalf of that client, answer the commission's questions.

Uh and then of course, based on First Amendment rights, uh you can always appear at a public hearing and speak on behalf of yourself as an individual and not as a member of the commission.

So I had to do that once.

Yeah.

Yeah, just once so far in all this time.

And it does happen, it happens more often on the planning commission.

Of course, yeah.

Yeah.

Uh sources of advice on these issues, the city attorney's office, I mentioned the Fair Political Practices Commission.

There's also a website, the Institute for Local Government, which has a lot of helpful information on uh on conflicts of interest, as well as I think the Brown Act.

So, more rules.

Um common sense again, uh commissioners may not accept gifts from the public if the total value of the gifts from a single source exceeds, I think it's four hundred and sixty dollars right now annually, or the gift is from a person or entity doing business with or seeking to do business with the city.

It's the kind of thing that should strike you as you know, uh questionable, right, when someone has a project that you're gonna be hearing in uh at the next meeting and suddenly they're offering you uh a week at their condo in Hawaii, right?

You know, something like that.

So uh every commissioner is supposed to uh receive ethics training, uh AB 1234 training uh every year, I believe it's every year.

And evidence of completing this training is supposed to be filed with the city clerk.

So this I think is part of your orientation and uh is also in policy resolution number 10.

And then uh you're all required to file your Form 700s uh you've probably done that before.

Questions about that.

You probably are more familiar with it than I am.

I don't have to do that.

So anyway, though that's coverage of the overview of these things, and I'm happy to answer questions if you have any.

So I do.

Staff does such a great job coalescing the Brown Act and all its information right up there into very manageable bullet points.

Is there any way that we commissioners can get a copy of that?

Or it would be great because it's just simple coalesced.

And if you have like a quick think, you know, you know, you can quickly do the bullets and then dive deeper in with the larger documents.

Yeah, we can make sure that a copy of the PowerPoint is available.

That would be great.

Yeah, we can download it.

That would be wonderful.

There's also um there's a lot of material about the Brown Act uh that I can show you and you know can be shared with the commission.

Or anyone who has an interest and again is having trouble sleeping at night.

I know.

See that before night that will be great, but really I mean, just to have it coalesce to that.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, it's exceptional.

And I've been looking at the Brown Act for many years, and sometimes a quick refresher like that, then you know, well, I need to dive in a little deeper.

So I would appreciate that.

I'm sure all other commissions would as well, because uh it's a quick little intro to get you in there.

Because it's I mean, it's pretty heavy duty, you know, to go through it all.

And it's probably my least favorite part of being on the commission, to be honest, but it is a rule.

I mean, it is something we all must abide by, and it's uh part of what makes our commissions fair in our cities.

Right.

There's really uh the it's only a small portion of the whole act that really applies to the conduct of the Trevor Burrus, sure.

Commissions and boards.

Yeah.

So I did have a I did have a quick question, uh and certainly if you guys have them as well.

So in the past, and I don't maybe we'll get to that.

Where does it fall in the Brown Act about subcommittees?

Because in the past, when we worked on, when I worked on the signage program, I formed us we formed a subcommittee under the approval of the city with just two commissioners to help uh Lynn design and uh staff worked with us and other folks to start the signage program, which led to the Calistoga historic district signage.

So where is that within the Brown Act?

Me or you?

Okay, yeah, that's fine.

Uh I thought you were reaching to talk.

Um there's the reason that it was formed with two members uh is to avoid the Brown Act, right?

Because the Brown Act applies when you have more than three, yeah.

Right.

On a five-person body, three or more, right?

So uh I'm just saying, does it it's so they don't even have you don't even have to talk about it then?

It would not be a a Brown violation.

Yeah.

Okay.

Well, that's true.

We still do act in transparency.

So an example, there was a subcommittee formed for um First Street Project, phase two, which is Coles redevelopment.

Two members of the planning commission.

It was a uh uh direction of a council resolution to form the subcommittee.

We still published an agenda it was available for members of the public to attend the subcommittee as to act in full transparency and be available to the public.

Um That's that's a good point.

That uh and the city does is this this city happens to be very good at it.

Uh like I said, I work in other cities that uh very varying degrees of respect for the Brown Act.

But um being transparent is a goal that this city always promotes, you know.

And so they tend this city tends to uh err on the side of full disclosure and even when they're they may not be required to uh proceed with all the uh you know uh uh required processes, they they have a tendency to do so anyway.

Sure.

At a hearing so it it is known who the members of the subcommittee are and then publish the agenda so it's available.

And that's how it was done in the past, and a few different subcommittees.

And uh anyway, um I'm just making sure that that's where we all are, and that if perhaps that's something that we do towards a signage program again, that that's uh that everyone kind of is in the same thought process.

So that that was mostly why I was checking in on it.

If this commission wanted to form a subcommittee for that purpose, we would probably uh look carefully at the Brown Act to make sure that the subcommittee uh you know and come up with a recommendation that make sure that it was uh in compliance.

Very good.

Excellent.

Uh Commissioner McKinney, you have a question?

Yes.

Thank you.

Can you explain?

Oh, I'm sorry.

Here we go.

Um can you talk a little bit about the prohibition on commissioners, let's say just two commissioners discussing past projects.

Is there a prohibition on that?

Uh there is no prohibition on two commissioners talking about actions that have been approved, you mean or no.

No, I mean back to the commission.

Well, if if they were coming back, then that would be an item that you would be deliberating on in the future, right?

If it's action that's been taken, you know, there's no the no violation there if it was coming back and the two you wanted to talk with the commissioner about that.

I mean my advice would be you probably don't want to talk outside of the public hearing with the other commissioners just as a general rule, right?

But uh but as uh again it goes back to whether your conduct can be construed as a majority of the commission deliberating about an item that's going to come before it.

Right.

And so if there were two of you, then it would not be a majority of the commission.

So you would not violate that rule.

But there are rules that I didn't uh get into, they are in the policy resolution 10 about what's called a serial meeting.

Right.

Right.

You know, where the two of you talk and then one of you talks to a third person.

Uh and so then that could be construed as a serial meeting, which would be a violation of the Brown Act.

You know, you can't play telephone with one another, right?

And uh and agree to all vote a certain way uh about an item.

Right.

Uh so and that's why caution suggests that you not uh you know engage in those kinds of conversations outside of the public meetings.

Okay.

That helps.

Does that help?

Yeah.

Okay.

I just wanted to make sure I understood correctly.

And again, if if it's an item that you already acted on and you don't expect it to come back, then that's not a problem.

Other commissioners, questions for staff?

Very good.

Well, and so are you is that your conclusion?

That's that's very good.

I'm done.

Well, thank you to staff and to you for your presentation.

And uh we all really appreciate it because it's nice to have the refresher every every so often and uh more often it's probably better.

Uh even if it's it's hard for us to uh focus in on all the details.

But I very much appreciate it and that yeah, making that available to us, I'd appreciate that.

So then uh that was item 8A.

And um there's no action required, so now we can move on to the Cultural Heritage Commission bylaw amendment, which is item 8B, and we get to hear from staff yet again with some wonderful information.

Good evening, everybody.

I'll be uh presenting on the proposed bylaw amendment.

It should be pretty quick.

Um this item is uh proposed amendment to the bylaws of the commission to allow the commission to move to a bi-monthly hearing schedule.

Um regularly scheduled meetings would occur the second Thursday of every other month rather than every month on odd numbered months.

No other changes are proposed.

Um as Dan was just covering, um the City of Napa policy resolution 10 establishes norms of operations for the commission.

Um this includes encouraging the commission, each commission to adopt its own bylaws to govern the conduct of their activities.

Um the Cultural Heritage Commission last adopted amendments to the bylaws in 2015 establishing the current meeting date and time.

Um amendments to the bylaws may be made at any regular meeting by a majority vote of quorum.

This request to move to a bi-monthly schedule is suggested to avoid conflicts with the bicycle and pedestrian advisory commission, who also plan to utilize the council chambers.

Um regular review of certificate of appropriateness applications could be processed as normal under a bi-monthly schedule.

Um and requests for Mills Act contracts would be moved up a month to the September meeting under this new schedule.

Um this is the proposed calendar.

Um the three regularly scheduled meetings, including today, and then the new odd numbered month meetings.

Um then this is the proposed edits to the text of the bylaws just so everybody could take a look.

Um the commission shall be held once every two months on the second Thursday of every odd numbered month, um, continuing in the council chambers.

Um so staff recommends the commission adopt a resolution approving the proposed amendment to the bylaws allowing a bi-monthly hearing schedule.

Um thank you.

I'm happy to answer any questions.

Thank you very much.

Uh Commissioners, do we have some questions for staff?

Please, why don't I start to my left?

Anything?

Okay, please.

If something came up that was necessary or staff felt that it would be important on something's on a time schedule, would there be an opportunity to make a change and have a meeting?

Of course, we could definitely uh uh request a special meeting or recommend a special meeting and the commission could choose to meet for a special meeting.

Under what you're proposing is already written into that?

Yes.

So that would continue to be an option.

Thank you.

Would it take extra time to get the special meeting set up?

You know, or would it let's say be able to occur within the month before the regular scheduled meeting?

Like or it's difficult to do it two weeks before, let's say.

Yeah, I mean, that's one thing where we'd be reaching out for in advance because we'd want to know too if you can attend it, right?

We wouldn't want to schedule it on a date where most of the commissioners wouldn't be able to attend.

So interestingly enough, we'll talk about that.

There'll likely be a request pretty soon, even though moving to recommend uh this amendment for a special meeting.

So we'll be coordinating with the commission very soon on that for an item coming up.

Okay.

Would that special meeting be on the same schedule?

Or could you say that's what I was saying?

Um it will typically fall still on at 5 30, usually because that's where we don't conflict with other meetings, but we it may not fall on like the same schedule of the second Thursday of every month.

It may end up being a different day.

Um, but that's where the coordinated effort kind of comes into play of like we'll be reaching out with multiple dates, coordinating when attendance is possible before we schedule a special meeting.

Okay.

So uh what you can expect is unless for some reason there's a joint session with council and it needs to occur earlier, and at times that occurs, um likely still occur at 5 30.

Um but day of the week subject to change depending on availability of the chambers, and then um also time of the month may change.

And this new schedule could be reversed if things pick up.

If for some reason there's a need, and we we see a need to to increase the number and frequency of the meetings again, yes.

Technically there could be an amendment to do that.

Um but that so that's always possible, yes.

Okay.

Commissioner McKenny, do you have any questions?

No, she covered my question.

So Commissioner Rasmussen?

I do have some questions.

Sorry, uh being on this commission for a while.

I just have a few questions that I formed.

And uh first of all the reasons are that it's proposed scheduling conflicts with another commission or advisory commission, which is bike, bicycle and pedestrian, and provide great so the reasons being the greater flexibility for the commissioners.

Um that you're saying that at this time in the last two years, only bi-monthly seems more uh in keeping with the amount of, I guess, projects that are coming before the commission.

And then the last would be that um MILS Act are changed to a different meeting.

So it's I see those four reasons in the project description.

Um the questions I have are is there a minimum number of meetings that the commission needs to have to be a part of a certified local government?

This commission.

No, not to buy.

So you could go down to every a meeting like once a quarter.

So is that right?

Based on the bylaws of when the regular scheduled meetings are, we still send out cancellations of the meeting.

So technically there's still a notification of cancellation or of a meeting that could have occurred.

Um, not to my knowledge, but I think Dan's checking on something real quick.

Yeah, I just curious about this.

And um are there any other commissions in the city of Napa that do bi-monthly as well?

Yes.

Um the bicycle and pedestrian advisory commission is bi-monthly.

Um there's also a number of commissions that like rarely ever meet, um, just because there's no items to be reviewed.

Right.

And I I shouldn't admit how long I've been on the commission, but it's been quite a few years.

I I don't ever recall us being in the 20 plus years uh bi-monthly ever.

Um, but uh not saying that that's a problem.

I'm just curious.

Do you have a correction to my prior statement?

So um section two of the Napa Municipal Code 27050 meetings of commission.

The commission shall by resolution establish the time and place for regular meetings.

Regular meetings shall be held no less than four times per calendar year.

And then the commission shall conduct its meetings in accordance with procedures established by resolution of the city council.

Commission may establish its own rules of procedure or bylaws consistent with city council resolutions or ordinances.

Great.

Minimum of four.

Very good.

Excellent.

I appreciate that.

And then I and I'm sorry I wasn't at the last meeting, and we've had meetings canceled, but I'm curious, just curious, no nothing.

What how did this come about?

Uh who suggested going bi-monthly, and is the impetus really, I mean, besides though, for project description and your review, which is great.

I I'm assuming it saves the city money as well if we're not having meetings and then canceling them or having meetings with very few items.

I I guess what is the impetus for this more?

The the meaning is really the conflict.

Oh, for bicycle.

Yeah.

Okay.

That's the impetus behind it.

I think that as a result of amendment, it you know, you saw other reasonings of how that assisted, including moving the Mills Act up to September, which gives people more time on the back end and oblig and those obligations.

But the impetus really is to not conflict to or to have two commissions conflicting on scheduling.

And because they are bi-monthly too.

Okay.

And then so the other question I have is, and that gets to some of the things that we've done more regularly in the past with the commission.

But we used to have and I don't know how it would ever come to be, but we worked on as a commission talking about the signage program in the past.

We also worked on uh basically things that were required to keep us as a part of a certified local government, which were workshops and educational training, and uh, you know, we met with the we met with the city council, each of the commissions did uh to check in and then sort of created a working uh you know goal, if you would, for the next year.

So how do we account it's it's difficult when there's things that the commission has done in the past and I see that there's some energy and and desire to do that still when you're down to six to four meetings a year.

So I know that it just hasn't been happening a lot but that doesn't mean that it couldn't happen.

And especially I and I apologize for missing that meeting it was not what I wanted to miss but the meeting about the signage is near and dear to my heart and I had pushed for that for years and worked with Lynn Design Studio worked with people even before that on a subcommittee and out of things and the commission was always very helpful but if you're down to six meetings how can we work that in because you know there's a time frame with meetings and I guess that's the question and that also begs to what if we had a sorry an additional meeting could we plan that in you know for some things more like how the commission can help be a little more proactive not advocacy but just taking care of some of these things that we haven't been able to do or would we be able to do if we have a lot of projects so that's long-winded sort of rambling question but I think if you understand where I'm going with that I guess yeah so if there's interest for a a project or something that uh the commission wants to discuss um you can definitely direct staff to include that on a future agenda um even schedule a special meeting like we were discussing earlier um there is still those options so um what I can commit to is this is that you know especially when we get to the the the reports at the end of it I like to provide kind of an update on status of projects going around of interest to the commission.

But I invite you during that time to also convey you know the feedback that you have and what I can commit is this is that with the staff with the city we're very responsive to um you know direction and then comments conveyed by the commission.

And so all of it comes with time considerations with staff, right?

So when it comes to the special meetings, those will likely coincide with a project if there's a if there's a a a need to to bring a project and within that bi-monthly schedule that it doesn't afford itself timely processing.

So you'll likely see a special meeting be coincided with some level of project to be able to make a decision on when it comes to the regular participation of the commission I'll echo what Paul has mentioned is that at times if there are discussion points you direct staff to bring an item to the commission for discussion as an admin report item to to participate in that.

What I would say is if there's direction to staff for certain items what I would ask is it's all kind of dependent on staff's time.

So we will as as eager as possible try to get an item before you but we also don't want to sell that item short.

So if it means not directing staff to the next regularly held Cultural heritage commission um but it's directing staff to bring an item back before and then give staff the time to research it, prepare and then provide you with a report, I would ask that um but again echoing what Paul said that that participation is encouraged and staff's very responsive of that.

Very good I think that you know if it has to do with bike bicycle commission that I mean if we had plans in a in advance enough time perhaps we could all agree to the same 530 time but on a Wednesday or something.

I mean how how is that gonna I guess that's what we're wondering is how can we be assured that we'll be able to have the time set aside to meet the voice of what we're trying to work on if we don't know all the other I mean we could all look up all our commission meetings and times but somehow this is what worked for us in 2015 and we stuck to it.

So if we give this up I I guess what I'm I think I'm hearing from all of us is we're a little leery about how to get back in the agenda on it get things back on an agenda item.

If it pertains to where I'm kind of going to.

So go ahead.

So does that make sense what I'm saying?

It's a little tough to um understand how it's gonna uh I think I think we we understand kind of the sentiment is you're seeing this recommendation where it removes meetings from the calendar, so it removes an opportunity to speak.

Um what I would say is this I think our commitment to being responsive to the commission um is it is a strong commitment and you know we will be sure to to meet that.

Um but even with like last year and the year prior where the you know the regular meetings were every month, the second Thursday of every month, um where there may have been less direction to staff to bring items, that's where you saw a meeting still being canceled because there weren't items to take action on.

So with the recommended amendment to this, I would encourage the commission to participate in in their ability and um should you have questions on with staff or should you direct staff to bring a report?

Um more than happy to to do that.

Um well I get it.

I understand that you know the recommendation can be seen as maybe lesser meetings.

I think that with the the participation and the commitment from staff, you'll probably see uh more involvement.

And um, you know, I watched the the council meetings and the interviews and and saw the commitment that the commission has to historic resources within the community, so I understand the the concern that that has.

Yep.

Please go, Commissioner McKinney.

Um I'm just wondering.

Are we seeing fewer projects come to staff?

Is there or is has something else changed so that staff is handling more of the projects without it coming to the CHC?

Um I I think by and large you're still seeing many applications come in.

It's just whether those applications by definition are subject to the review of the Cultural Heritage Commission.

So sometimes that there's ebbs and flows of that.

And I think what we've seen recently is just less warranting the review of the Commission.

We never get to see those projects until they're already approved by staff.

So we um I guess we just don't have a say in whether or not we think it rises to the level of coming to the commission.

So what I'll say is this uh within within that section that establishes depending on the criteria and the level of resource for historic resource will dictate what level of review it's required.

Staff is given the authority to make that decision.

Um but I think in hearing part of what you're saying is still seeing just or hearing about maybe projects or applications that may have been considered over the course of a certain time frame that you're curious about or you'd like to learn about.

And I think that we can we can look into that and find a way where it won't conflict with any Brown Act requirements, because I think projects like that, there's always the potential for appeal, so there's always the potential for you to have to deliberate on that project.

And so we'll we can find a way, we provide regular updates as far as like applications processed or units constructed to like planning commission city council.

So I think that there's a there's a a way of doing that specific to our historic resources to where then you understand the work that's still occurring within the community, even if it doesn't rise to the discretion of the commission.

Is that is it is that a fair understanding?

Can I add to that?

Um the allocation of projects to the commission's authority versus to staff's authority.

Uh it it's really controlled by the code by section uh chapter 1552 uh is the historic preservation code.

And in that code, it says what authority the director has to make administrative decisions and the director's authorities carried out by staff here versus what projects have to be heard by the commission.

And so council made that determination a long time ago, and it would be a city council decision if they were to modify that allocation of authority.

The other thing that really comes into play a lot, I think, is when an applicant comes to the city and the code is out there, everyone has the code right.

Applicants as a rule.

They don't want to go to City Council if they don't have to, right?

And so there's a sort of uh uh self-selection process amongst projects that occurs that pressures away from you know items coming before uh all the commissions, it doesn't just apply to the Cultural Heritage Commission.

And uh one thing that I think is important to note that um a lot of the historic resources within the City of Napa are tied to residential projects.

And with residential projects, um historic kind of runs that that gray area of the Secretary of Interior Standards where not all of the feedback and direction for historic properties are always as objective as they can be.

Um that gets really interesting when you know within the state there's a there's a housing crisis, and so the state directs jurisdiction to be as objective to establish objective standards.

And even to that point of that that gray area is where historic resources are involved sometimes in the direction of certain improvements to those properties.

But discretion can be like if we were to for some reason unnecessarily refer a project that may be residential to the commission where the the code tells us that we have the authority to do it unless it gets appealed.

That that process, you know, runs its course.

Um there could be legal implications to that.

So where a process is defined in the code and adopted by council, we have very much the expectation from staff is to stick to that process.

I think most I would agree, most of our projects that come before the commission, the majority are residential, but those residential ones are some of the most historic properties that we have in this city and county.

And so the majority of projects that we have seen have been things that have to do with the very nature of that historic integrity and where it stands with the Secretary of Interior Standards.

So one of our biggest issues is windows, as I am sure you all know.

And it has been for umteen years.

And as you all know, it changes the character, the look, and the quality of the historic structure, even if it's commercial when you change the windows.

So it's a sticky point that has been with the city and with the commission for years.

And I think that that's kind of some of the I mean, I guess maybe we're getting into the weeds here, but I think what Commissioner McKinney is saying is that you know some things do rise to that occasion that maybe it helps the staff not to have to make a decision that's difficult in that regard because it has to do with how much of the historic character you see, how much you can see with the windows, you know, the proportions and the uh the of what you see from the the street and what's the public, you know, see from the public eye.

And I guess uh I can think of one project where the contractor just ripped out all the windows and shame on him, he paid a fine, but the damage was already done.

So I don't know, there's a fine line about some of that and not wasting the city and staff's time.

But is there a way to and it's difficult because like you say, you're you're listening to council and what they've adopted.

So I think the conundrum for us is um where staff feels comfortable and confident that they're making decisions that have to do with the best uh interest of following the Secretary of Interior standards, and because that's paramount to all of the city and our structures on the historic integrity and where that lies with each one.

So I don't know how you know, and there have been years of us talking about getting a staff member that has historic preservation background and that uh is a you know comes to the table, comes and answers questions that has more of that kind of background in planning and preservation.

And you know, that's difficult to find people, and there's no requirement for that.

So I guess where I am is it's a trust between the commission and staff and council.

There's a trust.

And uh I think we don't want to feel devalued for helping the staff and for helping our city and for helping mostly important who we serve at the will of the city council.

So I guess it's hard for me to see where how it's all going to play out, because it's difficult to get these items on an agenda.

It's difficult to get the public noticed.

It's difficult to have your schedules on work, let alone us.

So I don't know.

It's I I'm on the fence about going to to ever to buy month to buy monthly, but I mean, by yes, you know what I'm saying.

Uh but I don't know if that's uh and the difficult thing too is we're we're recovering after the pandemic.

I mean so many things were shut down and people just thought they couldn't get things through and funding was minimized, and I know we're back at a totally different I mean, you know, with 2026.

So I don't know.

I'm trying to see how it goes forward without wasting the city's time and causing problems to the commission, uh bicycle commission, uh how we can I guess I'm just trying to understand it and feel like feel confidence that things won't be lost by uh having less meetings.

Um I I think an aspect of that is really important what you've conveyed.

Um I think that although you you know you see that that change and you see it as you know diminishing value, if you will, of expertise.

Um the the true reason behind the recommendation is really that to conflict with the balancing of the commissions and the schedules there.

It's not to strip of your authority within these matters.

Um applications and processing of applications, we have no control over how many applications we receive.

We have an obligation to process.

We have an obligation bound by code requirements on what level of discretion so that occurs, but I think that what's of value is the commission holding you know the authority as it pertains to historic resources and things of cultural value to the community is really that items for discussion, directing staff, it's the participation of the commission that doesn't have to hold itself within an actual item tied to an action for a project that occurs, right?

But it's discussions, it's it's reports that could lead to, and even if it doesn't lead to a project that finds its way in front of you.

Maybe it's because of the input that you've given to certain plans or standards that exist that lead to staff level decisions based on standards recommended by you, adopted by council that find their way to the community.

So I don't want this recommendation to diskew too far from its its real purpose, which was really to not conflict with the scheduling of commissions, but I would invite you to think of it as that participation aspect of it.

When we get to agenda reports, asking staff those questions, what I can commit to is this is to provide more regular updates about projects that are occurring.

We'd be happy to give updates as far as you know, and we'll we'll work with our legal team to understand certain projects and how we can convey those to you in a way that doesn't conflict with the Brown Act.

Right.

But so you're aware and you feel like you're committed to the process, even if it's a project that you don't see.

So we we'd be happy to to give reports that give like the number of applications, what's been considered.

Um but we'll we'll find a way to to balance that.

Because a lot of thank you very much.

Really appreciate that.

And and there's a lot of times that I feel like that would be very helpful because we are in the community.

We are keeping our eyes out.

We are we are a body that cares about a lot of things in our community as far as the historic icons.

And so sometimes you see something happening, and then you're like, hmm, what's going on with that?

Who's who has eyes on that?

Where is that going?

And I guess the more significant things.

We're not going to ask for every little home, but some of the significant things, you know, one of a kind residential structures, you know, what happened to the NAPA, you know, to the old Adobe.

I mean, that was something that we had to stay on top of and asked for information about it.

Uh a googie structure was torn down really without much input from the commission, and when it came, it was kind of too late.

I mean, so I it's a delicate balance, however, between Brown Act, between developers, between the city.

So, and I know that the planning commission gets they get do they get fed some information about things that are coming on the agenda.

Is that right?

But not really potential projects.

Is it and in the past we did get some information?

So uh we were told about, hey, this is what's going on with the Thomas Earl House, blah, blah, blah, this is happening.

You know, we haven't heard I know there's been transition, and that's a difficult one, but we haven't heard anything about that in a very long time.

And so anyway, I I'm babbling on.

I should let you speak.

I uh I appreciate the feedback.

And yes, Planning Commission receives regular regular updates to the extent of there's agenda forecasting, and we don't speak about the items that are coming when they're not published and they haven't been placed on an agenda yet, but informing them of knowing how many items are coming before them, or maybe items that have been considered in the past and status of those projects.

So happy to provide regular updates.

What you'll see in the future is kind of the the tandem that is Paul and I, you know, assisting you.

And so really rely on Paul as kind of that that staff level expert as far as historic resources, he's a valued planner with the city.

Um but my commitment to you is that is that that that participation and so where you haven't received updates in the past, happy to provide those updates.

And um, I actually have some updates for you at the end of the agenda.

So and I'm not trying to create more undue work by any means.

I I just it's more of information and the more it's education is power, right?

If you keep us educated, then we feel more calm about some of these icons that are being altered or destroyed on, you know, uh anyway, Brown Street or whatnot.

But um I think if there's a little of that transparency we're talking about even in meetings, that uh if we are a little more informed, it would be appreciated and uh I think helpful to the commission.

So anyway, I it please chime in.

I I won't say more on that uh if other commissioners have any thoughts.

And I think it's just because I care so much about this commission.

I believe we've done incredible work.

We still have that ability and we'll continue to do so.

It's just a and change is okay.

It's just want to make sure that we still have that ability to stay on top of things.

Um if the schedule's slow, there's other things we the signage program, historic signage program, you know, kind of thing.

So anyway, please.

Commissioner, yes.

I have a couple of questions, comments.

Um you brought up windows.

Um I notice a lot of uh that's already when it goes to planning, it gets approved for re window replacement.

But sometimes when it comes here in the past, we've talked about like making sure that the windows are not tinted in any way.

And I I kind of find that maybe that slips through when it gets approved by planning before coming to CHC.

So I was wondering if there's any way we can kind of all agree on what that standard is and what kind what and interpret what is a Secretary of Interior standards that we're all using in regard to any vinyl used on it, any fake OGs, uh tinted glass, double pain, and all those little minute things that really can make a huge difference in the character of the home because you put a tinted window in there and you you steal away the character.

So is there some way we could have a special meeting or we can talk about that?

Yeah, um I want to start off by clarifying that the code has a very specific definition of what's considered in-kind.

It has to be the exact same material, operation, style as the original wood windows.

Um I also want to highlight that if we um got a in-kind a request for in-kind replacements on a local landmark property, it would require a staff level C of A that would get noticed to you guys.

Um so you would have the chance to comment and ask questions.

Um if we ever got a request for not in-kind replacement, that would rise to the level of a CHC hearing, we would have to have a hearing.

Um that almost never happens because staff gives such firm and clear guidance that the commission is unlikely to ever support um removal and replacement of original windows not in kind.

Um so we continue to enforce those standards like we always have.

Um and then the other component is that if you do see modification of you do see an issue somewhere, um it's a potentially a code enforcement issue outside of an application.

Um so you definitely also can come to staff about that too.

But have any questions about a specific property or anything like that?

You know, when you have double pain, usually you have the gas inside and that that creates automatically a tinted window.

And I just think those I've noticed windows don't look um like old windows when they get replaced in most cases.

Um if they're not traditional custom made wood windows.

So staff evaluates all window replacements to make sure that they meet that definition of in-kind replacements.

Um staff wouldn't approve a project if that wasn't the case.

And we do check for all these things.

I've discussed this with you before.

We ensure that it's not tinted glass, um, all these things.

The OE lugs are included.

Okay.

Um another question I have, you said we have to have a minimum of four meetings.

We've been so infrequent lately.

Um if we're on the last scheduled meeting of the year and there is nothing on the agenda, can we have uh a meeting and have like a class or instruction or discussion about something?

I think that goes back to the commitment of you know, upon direction, but yes, we will we will forecast in such a way that we ensure that the at least the minimum is met.

But the the commitment to you is more regular attendance to those scheduled meetings.

Um but to to some degree, I mean, even planning commission hearings are canceled where there are no items to consider.

So it's not that there won't be cancellations because there are cancellations even without the amendment, right?

Sure.

But what you're hearing is what you're hearing.

What you're hearing from me is empower you in such a way that um more regular discussions occur.

I hear that you you want to hear about more regular updates, we will we'll reconvene as staff and then find a way to bring reports to you that provide you with those updates.

Um then as far as like being directed to provide certain reports, I mean, where the response and um to kind of your direction on that.

But it staff considerations and timing uh of when we can prepare that.

That's where I ask you the considerations of maybe not to the next regularly scheduled meeting, but direct staff to review such an item, what that is.

Um and we'll bring it to you when we have time to prepare the report.

Um and it's not not to be any unnecessary delays there.

It's just we have ongoing applications that that take a lot of time.

So it's it's a balancing act.

I have another.

I have another please go ahead um you said that in the September meeting will be for MILS Act.

Does that mean the deadline has now changed that the um applications are now due?

Yeah I mean because before it was uh August 30th and obviously two weeks into it would be not enough time so what has it been changed to?

So it would be July 31st.

Okay.

Thank you.

Um apologies that I don't know the schedule how did what is the schedule of the bicycle commission with our how is there a conflict?

I don't I don't understand.

So I mean I'm I'm um I'm ignorant as to the schedule.

Um so there uh the second Thursday of um every even numbered month um and then uh the other thing uh I want to point out is the city clerk publishes a calendar every year of all city council all missions and commissions and other bodies um that is available online I could definitely provide it to you.

I'm just I just didn't look before I came to the meeting I know it's there so I apologize for not looking yes so there's the second of each month even.

And what prompted the change?

I mean because we've been meeting all along on our second Thursday and then all of a sudden now we're in conflict but we were never in conflict before.

Yeah we were just advised just there's an organizational issue just using the facilities efficiently and everything from the city clerk's office so that's why we brought this to this.

When were they meeting before?

So they meet in a different uh meeting space they meet in one of the meeting rooms correct they meet in this one where we used to meet?

Yes.

Why can't they continue to do that just out of curiosity?

Because you know they interact with the public as well there's interests in their items it's more efficient to use the chambers that are you know built for that we met in there for years years and years and years with the commission before we finally moved in here.

And even when we moved in here we weren't even filmed for a while.

It was just uh it was just the um audio but um I it just seems odd to me that it's now coming to light but I get it that um I understand everybody deserves to be in here um also so I uh I don't know I wish I understood how many uh projects are coming to the but it's difficult to know how many projects are coming to the city that would rise to this occasion to come to the commission and I don't anyway it could be that as I don't remember which commissioner said we could be getting more projects.

So as long as staff is willing to stay in a meeting if we have five projects a C of A's like we used to and when planning commission has that many agenda items as long as staff is willing to be here from 5.30 to nine o'clock I don't know when we get kicked out officially if there's a the lights go off time but I mean I guess that that's how it would end up being so as someone that's had meetings that have run past midnight we we will be here and it's not that they cannot be continued but it's hard to to get to people get exhausted at a certain point.

Yes.

So it it's a it's a balancing act in the forecasting and scheduling but if there were multiple items and there are multiple items.

Sure.

Yeah I have a question um Commissioner McKinney it sounds a little bit I'm sorry.

No go ahead no no it's all right it is it's no we're a little we're pretty good here tonight.

I just want to be I'm trying to be formal for us.

Please go ahead.

I'm sorry no no it's all right.

Um forgotten what I was gonna say.

Oh so it sounds like we don't really have a choice right now about being bimonthly if things got to a point where we were getting more projects could it change back yes it it could change back.

I I do want to reiterate so this amendment is in a formal process to do that.

We still have a balancing act in in scheduling and when items are placed.

So if for some reason you you were to move to not do it and there is a conflict with the bicycle coalition, there's a judgment call that needs to be made of when items will come.

So where they already have a bi-monthly schedule for the most part, we would probably have to move to recommend to go to another hearing date anyways as to not conflict with the bicycle coalition.

So it's if I can reiterate anything, it's not from a means of not wanting to to meet, just to meet.

And that's where I can commit to you is a more regular attendance to CHT meetings, even with amendments should they be moved to to bimonthly.

Okay.

Oh, one more question.

Please.

Um right now we have Thursday, the second Thursdays.

What other days are open evenings for for a meeting if we wanted to change?

I mean, if we needed to change, we would have to go to a different thing.

If if we needed to change, for some reason there was a a surplus in applications received, right?

And a lot of that's dictated by market, right?

We're not in control of the applications that we receive.

Um odds are we would probably move to making a recommendation to meet more frequently.

So that is that is always a possibility.

That's gonna be tied to applications.

Um it's similar in ways to where other bodies for other jurisdictions meet less frequently, more frequently, it's based off of items to be considered.

And so yes, hypothetically, yes, we could move to a different date.

I don't know what that date and time is yet, but there are many boards and commissions that meet, and so it's a balancing act between it all.

There's a lot of four days uh a month that I'm sure this the chambers are not being used.

I mean, are we we're just accommodating the bicycle coalition, and because we don't see that many um projects come before us, so that's really what's happening here.

Yes, to not cause scheduling conflicts.

Right.

So I think all of us still sorry.

That would be Commissioner McKinney.

Um reading everyone correctly, I I think we are all very committed to historic preservation, and we take our role here very seriously.

Um we've made a commitment to the state by having decisions made on a local level instead of having projects go to the state as a certified local government.

And and we're taking that seriously.

And so um you know, I just would like to emphasize that.

We want to participate, and we want to be, I guess, acknowledged as an important commission and essential for the city.

I I can speak on behalf of Stab and saying your feedback is very much appreciated, and we do value you uh as a resource to the community.

Um so don't interpret the number of applications to also be tied to and correlated to your value you hold as a commission.

But I am very receptive of the feedback that you provided tonight, and so we'll be committed to you know, regularly reported and then kind of regular updates when we do meet frequently.

And I invite you uh to to participate.

So if you see things within the community, you want to reach out to myself, you want to reach out to Paul, you can continue to do that and we will answer any questions that you have.

Thank you.

Are we going to vote on this?

Or we have Yes.

So if we didn't agree, we can also vote on that, right?

And there has to be a motion and we have to vote on this.

Yes, yes.

Yes.

So that's why I'm bringing up questions and I guess I wish since we serve at the will of city council.

We that is our that is what we do.

We are, you know, appointed by them and uh anyway.

I've always kept that to heart.

And um and I know that, you know, the bicycle and pedestrian, we need to call them properly uh commission are the same.

And um you know, I think that's what's uh difficult is that I I think what I'm hearing from commissioners, at least where I am feeling too, is that it feels like we're making an accommodation to provide time for another commission, and we're worried that it's at the expense of the time that we put in and put passion towards the items that are important to this city and our city council.

And I understand that at this time maybe there aren't a lot of projects coming before us, but I also hear that may you know uh i there is a trust level.

Are there more projects that are at staff level that have in the past had come to or would maybe uh you know, come to the commission.

And that's it's just difficult.

I think it's just less people are doing projects right now, and that's what's difficult for us to see because I mean we literally sometimes had four or five projects coming in each agenda, each each uh each monthly meeting.

So I think it's happening at the same time.

It just feels awkward, if you will.

And I may I please, yes, please.

I would just uh I I think I said this before, but I would reiterate that the chapter 1552 of the code uh is the council's determination of which projects will go to the commission and which will go be dealt with administratively and which have to be heard by council.

And so I I I guess I would urge you to look at that pretty carefully because you know that sounds like that that's part of your concern is uh, you know, that you're feeling like you should be your authority should be uh applied to more projects than uh than it's been receiving.

And so, you know, the But you we can't say that because we don't see what's coming through.

So I don't know.

Right, but but it would I think at least help you understand how that process works, sir.

And uh so comparing it to what happened in the past.

And so it's kind of confusing, like you know, why within the last year all of a sudden you know, and I I read everything that comes to me and it doesn't have descriptions of what's happening, but I see all these in-house approvals by staff, and I can't help wondering what were they and you know, I appreciate that you will give us more information about that, but there has been a change.

Um that I don't feel I understand or have the information on what's really happened.

Are there really fewer projects coming through the city or not?

I don't know.

So similar to to planning commission where they hold the land use authority and and um uh uh a lot of these projects do have real ties to to market considerations and and right so staff is cannot control how many applications we receive.

We can only control the applications we have the ability to process.

We are mandated and it's more more of an afford way that the planning commission has had to also understand that there are limitations to discretion, and that's that's kind of moving across the board.

State mandate.

State mandated.

Even having ties to historic resources, not that there's been a material effect on the ordinance as adopted by council yet, but very much moving in the direction of less discretion, right?

More certainty to homeowners that are wanting to perform projects or developers wanting to build residential across the board.

It's just that is the direction that the state is mandating for local jurisdictions to respond to.

And so there are there are multiple reasons as to why the number of applications may change, and some of it's tied to cost of construction.

And that's with that's outside of our control for the most part.

And I want to be clear, and I think I speak for the commission.

We believe what the staff is doing, we trust what the staff is doing, we appreciate it very much, and we appreciate thorough reports.

I think that where you're saying is that uh I think we would appreciate some more information.

I think in the past we used to get things, they tell send us things.

I know it takes time, which is money, but I think that would I think that would be a great compromise for us going from the if if that's the choice from the monthly to the bi-monthly.

And uh having assurance that if there is something that comes up that we can find a time to bring a special meeting and that it won't be squashed because of some cost or some timing or something.

I you know, it's it's a difficult place because we honor other commissions and the importance of what they're doing as well.

So it's um it's just different because this is coming to us now on the heels of less projects coming before us, and so um, you know, it it's for pa it gives you pause.

And so anyway, I um I don't know.

Are there other questions from commissioners, please?

Commissioner Wesson.

Has the um bicycle and pedestrian commission been given an option for another day to have their meetings in the chambers?

I don't think that was formally considered.

Um like they didn't decide if they want to move to a different day.

Um but this was like a holistic look at the schedule, um, how things fit.

Um and that's why it was brought here today.

When do they currently meet?

So the second Thursday of um every other month, even number, even numbered months.

So February, next year.

April, June.

So it doesn't matter.

So in the past.

They've they've had that schedule.

So they've been meeting at the same time we've been meeting in a different building.

In the chambers behind us.

But they haven't been given, say, well, you can meet on Wednesday um the second Wednesday very much.

I I can't speak to the conversations that have been had and haven't been had, but what I will say is there there are more commissions and boards than there have been, and it is a balancing act to to ensure that when a hearing is presented in front of the public that it is as publicly accessible as possible.

And so that is a balancing act, and sometimes it it comes as a recommendation from staff just as the recommendation tonight to move to a more regular to not conflict with their expertise in the commission that they hold.

So they meet February, April, June, August, October, and December.

That is correct.

Okay.

Okay.

Um what I'm understanding it and correct me if I'm wrong, there has not been a discussion with the bicycle and pedestrian commission if they are willing to do it on a different day.

Um that I'm aware of there's not been a formal like agenda item where they've discussed.

Okay.

All right.

Um we can't speak to the conversations had conversations not had outside of us.

Right.

We've had conversations.

But that's not been an agenda item for them, like it is for us.

Uh I I don't have that information in front of me right now.

Okay.

Um but it is like I said it is a balancing act and so we've been given the direction to to move towards a bi-monthly meeting as to not cause potential conflicts, right?

It's a shared who gave you the direction is that city council or planning I'm not supposed to ask that question we we've been working internally and we're executive team tokay um commissioners are there other thoughts or questions of staff um or any other discussions may is there a discussion that we could have amongst us just quickly is that something you'd like to have a little we have in the past you you deliberate we're deliberating we are deliberate because we've asked staff their questions so now we can deliberate unless you add another question for staff Commissioner Winston it's it's kind of for us and them but that's the part where we get into deliberation okay so we're so I I'm sure staff wouldn't mind answering questions so what was your thought um my thought is you just kind of drop this on us and maybe we need a little bit more time and understanding that um if there are other options instead of here's what we want to do in maybe a different day maybe for them a different day um that's what I'm thinking I don't know if it's a cost thing for the city as well I mean it's uh adding additional meetings and if they're canceled that they go through that process so I you know it's it's why would there be a cost thing either you're here or you're not here like well if they cancel I guess if you're scheduling meetings you're still gonna notice the public you still have to let them know the staff has to be ready and then it gets canceled.

I don't know if staff gets paid uh if a meeting's canceled or not so um I don't you know I'm I'm trying to figure out a balance between what uh is being asked and what is you know needed what is needed for the commission to be able to uh rise to what we were our charges are and to find the balance of getting the other commission in here because that was always important to uh us when we used to meet in there to get into here then that was a uh that was a thing that was important and should be and it talks about transparency so I believe that the bicycle commission should definitely be in here I just don't know uh bicycle and pedestrian I just don't know if there is a compromise or difference so well that's I'm saying what are the options do Commissioner um McKenney and Rasmussen have any thoughts or my thought is that um whether we're meeting six times a year twelve times a year the the entire issue really depends on workload that comes to us and if um there's an ability to increase meeting size or meeting length number of meetings if in fact we have more business to do then I have no objection to this being going to the six per year um you know sort of regardless of uh the bicycle commission um I find it sort of disheartening that we are we haven't got any business at the moment right that's sad but um I don't really have any particular issues with this either so as long as that option is there you know if we have to stay until midnight one time well that's fine it would be kind of fun as long as they bring us pizza right if that is not on the record may I just in response if you do speak again just make sure to turn on the microphone.

Oh yeah no worries that was Commissioner Rasmussen that made a few comments I can't repeat it so would that not go into record then if the mic is not on the okay thanks.

Did you have another thought Commissioner Wesson?

No.

Commissioner McKinney please um I I have to say I have the same thought as Commissioner Wesson.

And I don't like not knowing if another opportunity or possibility has been looked at.

So I would feel a lot better about voting if I knew that there was another day that was a possibility for the bicycle commission to meet on.

I mean, we haven't been told whether or not Wednesdays are available or not.

If I may, I can pull the county.

Please go ahead.

Yes, sorry.

I don't have it solves a lot.

I need to get the Wi-Fi to do it.

Oh, okay.

Please.

Well, I'll I'll I can you describe it into the record, Myra?

So Wednesdays every other Wednesday.

Um they are not available.

As the senior advisory commission is on at two, and then the parks and recreation committee is at 6 p.m.

on uh believe on where does it say?

I guess maybe which Wednesdays would be available then or none.

So um I think one thing that hasn't been discussed is council chamber uses outside of boards and commissions.

Um having availability for uh a place of public assembly that is regularly utilized for other reasons too is also of interest to the city.

So that's where I get into the balancing act that is so being able to convey to the public that the Cultural Heritage Commission may convene bi-monthly.

They may convene bi-monthly, but it's expected that it's gonna be on the second Thursday is easier for the public to understand and know when they can participate even without an agenda being published.

But the Paul uh has has placed the the agenda schedule in front of you.

But what this doesn't show you or is when that that chamber is used outside of boards and commissions in which I can convey last Friday, participated in an all-day training that occurred right here in the council chambers.

So it is of interest, it's that balancing act.

That's why based on discussions we've had, we felt like this recommendation was appropriate.

Looks like the third Tuesday of every month is open.

And like I said, sometimes we have to convene special meetings for other boards and commissions, and so that availability.

So although there's an interest from the commission to have regularly scheduled meetings, the workload also has to dictate whether there's an actual agenda for a hearing too, right?

So I said that that trade-off, and I've I've heard that the statements that have been made thus far of wanting to receive regular reports, and not so even with a meeting that's on the calendar doesn't mean we have an item to discuss, and so that's that's an important connection.

So I think that the recommendation in front of you is based on discussions that we've had of the balancing act that is actually scheduling meetings where the expectation from the public is also well understood of when they can participate.

And then I just want to clarify city council calendar is not on this calendar.

This is only boards and commissions.

Um we have to consider council calendar.

Council meets on Tuesdays.

Yes, the the first and third Tuesday.

Okay.

Um you feel you can make a decision at this time, or is it something that you'd want to continue, or is it something and is that possible?

Uh or do you feel you're at a voting place with where we are with deliberation?

Each of our commissioners.

I hope we would vote it.

Yep.

And I guess the staff is making a strong recommendation to do this, and that's based on working with another commission.

So it's in the interest, I guess, from the city and those that are above with the group that are trying to find a way to make this all work for all commissions.

It's just difficult because we've been working under this this whole time.

So I think that's what we're asking is there another consideration?

Although you've not been able to be a part of those discussions, would there be a talk with the bicycle and pedestrian commission putting it on an agenda asking them if there's another time or so that they could get into the the chambers here?

Is that something that staff has thought about or would even bring up, or is that any kind of compromise that the commission would even consider, I guess.

And I don't know what p what where do you stand with that, Paul?

Is that something that you could talk with them about, I guess?

So or is that not even something that with who your discussions have been, or if uh that that could even occur?

Sure.

Oh, sorry.

I'm not sure I wasn't aware of it until today, but uh I guess the uh bicycle or pedestrian commission operates uh in connection with public works and not with planning staff.

Oh, that's right.

That's right.

I forgot that.

That's exactly right.

Yes.

So they they're you know uh they can't speak directly to those kinds of things.

Uh-huh.

It's a conundrum.

So but I think that um I think that where we are is that uh we have a commitment from staff to provide us more uh transparency on things that are coming before the staff on and and we did in the past, I I don't remember when, but staff was gracious enough to provide us, hey, you guys may have seen this out there, this is what staff did.

This is we approved this on staff level, or hey, there's this interesting thing coming along, you know, without any Brown Act violation, we're working on it.

If you have any further questions, contact directly.

You know, I think that kind of stuff would go very or that kind of uh uh communication I should say would go very far with this commission uh because of our our passion for the community.

Um so I think with that assurance that you will provide that for us, and uh that uh especially things that are ongoing, for instance the Thomas Earl House, um, you know, it would help us to I think feel more connected with staff and with what's going on.

Even if there aren't any projects coming before us, I think that we feel like we haven't been um I guess uh needed or heard in some ways, because there's not a lot going on.

And just to know that I think we believe in continuing things such as continuing education because we need to do that as a certified local government.

So somehow that has to work in to all the timing as well and planned in, and you know, the you saw a member of public, it is very fired up and and filled with passion, as are a lot of us commissioners to get a signage program going and continuing.

So when does that fall into our meetings?

How does that work?

Where does that come in as an agenda item?

So long as there's enough time and figured in.

But I think, you know, as Commissioner Rasmussen has said, as long as the agenda item covers those projects and everything that we're working with staff on.

I don't know how to find a way unless uh we asked the other commission to come up with a different date, and I don't see that that's the recommendation that we have here at this time.

So uh our staff is our greatest ally for us as far as recommendations and where they see things, and so I think um I you know, and it's important to get every commission in here if that's part of uh the transparency the city wants.

So I I think we have to make it a uh we have to do a vote today, and uh because it doesn't sound like you will be able to take it to a meeting for that commission.

Is that correct to ask them?

It it doesn't sound like that's even a possibility.

We can we can have discussions, but what I can't commit is the result of those discussions and the balancing act.

Right.

I think that we we've done quite a bit in looking at how we can balance it and what seems to be the most appropriate in doing that balancing act, and that's reflected, I think, in the recommendation in front of you tonight.

Um that did doesn't mean additional discussions can't occur.

And that doesn't that doesn't mean that further amendments at some point in the future can't occur to these bylaws to allow for more regular meetings.

Um but those are discussions that haven't happened, and those are discussions that I can't I can't commit to a specific um route of uh of achieving that balance.

But I think that that's why we're making the recommendation in front of you tonight.

But to reiterate again, that doesn't mean that amendments should we receive more applications should we we have items that we need to discuss and you know then the commitment obviously of the reporting and the transparency and I'm committed to that.

Um but I can't I can't commit to a specific resolution one way or the other because those discussions haven't been had.

Are we best serving the public by going every other month because it would mean delaying a project uh although we can have a special meeting, but that might take as long to get on that?

Based on the number of applications received, we don't see that as being an issue of delaying a project in one way or another.

Um but there are always opportunities as mentioned to you of convening a special meeting should timing really be an issue there, but based off of the number of applications received, we don't see that as being an application or an impact to due process of applications.

However, there are opportunities afforded to you as a commission to receive regular reports from staff on certain items.

But no, I don't see the the timing as having an impact on actual applications processed.

It's just difficult because we can't project what's going to happen.

There's no telling that it's not going to pick up again.

You know, that there'll be multitudes of more applications again.

I mean, I that's a difficult.

I mean, I know it's been that way in the I don't know if it's been a couple years, but I guess so.

But before that it was it was a different scenario here.

So and it is for the you know, we serve, yes, we serve the public, but we also serve the city council.

So I don't know.

Um but yeah.

Were there any other no?

I think we need to uh uh get a motion if we can.

Um would anyone be interested in making the motion at this time?

I'll make the motion at the time.

Um let's see.

I move that so let me I move that uh the Cultural Heritage Commission adopt a resolution approving the proposed amendment to the bylaws, allowing for bi-monthly hearing schedule.

Do I have a second?

We do not have a second.

Anyone can second, including the chair.

Uh yes.

Is there anything we can add to the motion?

Or is it just strictly on what we see as far as I guess it's more of a discussion about a detail of the motion?

Yes, it's that that's possible.

I mean, that's there's you know deliberation that can be made on what you're willing to consider in the motion.

What I'm saying is if there's added to the motion if there are more if projects pick up if there are more items that the commission then could ask for a monthly meeting.

Is that something that could be added to the motion versus bi-monthly?

I'm not sure that motion is clear enough.

So the motion on the table is that we would adopt a resolution to go bi-monthly until there is a time that we have to do it.

May I?

Yes.

The reason I I'm thinking that that motion is not clear enough is because of the uncertainty associated with when you know what would be the trigger for the Yeah, it has to be more specific.

Yeah.

Um which is difficult.

How about in such time that uh this staff or CHC feels the need that we need to go back to a monthly meetings?

Again, I think that leaves discretion with staff or with the right, right.

I mean it's always an option under the bylaws for the commission to uh amend its bylaws, right?

So it's sort of redundant.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh it is redundant.

Then then I second the motion.

So we need to do a vote.

Um all in favor.

Aye.

Reluctantly.

And what's Commissioner Rassman?

What would you what say you?

Sorry, Rasmussen.

I.

I said I, yeah.

Wesson?

Reluctantly aye.

McKenney?

So reluctantly I.

And I.

So the motion passes.

And I appreciate staff not as a part of the emotion, but I appreciate what you've worked towards and and are offering to do for this commission to keep us really uh more um up to date with more transparency and um and listening to us if there are further items that uh we would like to somehow you know have agendized.

And I really feel it's going to be a big thing for us to help out with um the signage program.

So I'm hoping that we can figure that out when that will work into an agenda item.

But I know you have things you want to do.

Sorry, Commissioner McKinney.

I have just a quick thing.

Commissioner Wesson.

When could we expect to see more transparency, more information about um items coming?

So um as part of agenda forecasting one of when items are coming, also correspondence with staff as far as if there are any need if there's a need, which there will be correspondence soon, establishing a need and trying to balance when a special meeting can occur, which will be tied to an agenda that's published.

And um but also during each time that we convene as a commission, and um my my intention is to provide you with updates that not only tie to what you do as a commission, but may have you know interested you within the community of decisions made by other commissions and or the council.

Um but it can also commit to you regular you know correspondence individually and then just be there as a a point of transparency and a resource on staff side, is that Paul and I are kind of acting in tandem for a little while are there and committed to you with any questions that you have outside of the hearing.

But um if I if I don't know when I mean at the next regularly scheduled meeting if we meet, can we expect something then or in the interim or as it as it um comes to you?

So you want to know what the process is going to be.

I think it's gonna be a balancing act of kind of all of that.

So it's it's going to be based off of feedback received individually by the commission as collectively from the commission.

So if we're directed to provide certain reports, then those reports will occur you know regularly or as soon as staff time permits, placing it on an agenda, right?

So we don't want to place on an agenda if staff hasn't had the time to prepare a report that would be productive and you know um most fruitful.

But as far as regular updates, um we we can commit to at the end of each Cultural Heritage Commission providing you with updates of projects occurring outside of that.

So it's kind of gonna be a balancing act of all of the above, right?

Where if we're directed to bring an item to agendize an item to bring back in front of you, then we will have regular you know, correspondence and the agenda forecast will reflect when we think we can bring that item in front of you.

So that'll give you kind of the certainty and the balancing of the scheduling of when you can expect to to hear from staff.

As far as regular updates, we can convene as staff and and determine you know what the the reporting looks like to provide you transparency with um projects that may have been processed.

Um so you're aware of those.

We can we can have you know regular updates at the end of the meeting for notable projects.

Um and then just kind of field certain minimal minimal questions given the if a obviously if a project isn't on the agenda not getting too far into discussion about it.

Um it's kind of a balancing act of Do you all receive you all receive the planning division forecast, right?

I always do.

Yep.

And you do, Commissioner Rasmussen.

Okay, just making sure.

So it's like a mini forecast for us of the planning division forecast.

It's just and I also get the C C of A's that have already been approved.

Right.

But it's it they send they email them to you.

Yes, yes, it's all already done.

Yes, and we all get that.

So what we're talking about is getting it before it's all approved.

As much as they can say to us, correct?

So um you can be notified of decisions, but I don't yeah uh of having certain discretion or impacting a project beforehand.

Um I mean we can the there's kind of a fine balance there.

So we're gonna figure this out.

Yeah, I think these things yes.

Yeah.

Happy to provide you with regular updates.

You know, we'll we'll consult legal on what there's no conflict.

Right.

Because we can't we can't comment on things that are going through on a staff level.

I mean, on a big I mean, I mean we can, but I there's a balancing act of how much they can tell us, I guess.

That's where it comes.

So records are always they're public records, so always provide you with information fully transparent and to the public as well.

So should you have questions?

And is I know this is a crazy thing, but it's kind of going on the thing uh same.

Um I think all of us support and appreciate staff to take this as their charge.

But uh you know, I think you all understand where the window conundrum is.

And so keep that close to your heart and first and foremost, and that uh because it is the right of owners to change some windows, but you know where the commission sits as far as how that changes the heart of that of that uh elevation if it's the most visual one, but you know, Secretary of Interior Standards, and it's been that has been the number one difficult problem for this commission for years.

So I'm just reiterating that it's important to should be as important to you as it is to us.

So anyway, um I know that we're on commissioner comments and staff, and I think you said you had some things for us.

If you wanted to go first, I can I can wrap up or I can provide you with the question.

Well, it may be uh it may be are there other commissioners that have some comments at this time.

I have a request about how to act on um a recommendation of mooring trips uh suggestion about signage.

So you can direct staff to put it on the next agenda.

That's where yeah, that's a motion to do for I'm I move that morning trips suggestion about signage go on the next agenda.

I yeah, and I don't know if it has to be a formal motion.

I think the chair can direct.

We can yes, I can can't I?

That's what I thought I've done in the past.

So yes, please.

We would like to put the comments and the discussion about um uh the signage program on the agenda for the next month's meeting, which will be in April.

No.

May May.

May.

May.

Yes.

So and it includes the comments.

And I think it also maybe includes the Lynn.

Does that go along?

I don't know.

Yes.

Right plans.

And it includes the signage that was proposed for Napa Bajo Fuller Park within that attachment.

Correct.

So does that mean we will be having a May meeting?

May.

Yes.

Okay.

We'll tentatively track for that if there for some reason any unforeseen, but we'll tentatively track for May.

The big thing is for me is uh so we went through this whole signage program.

Uh Lynn Design Studio, I know.

We designed it for every potential historic district.

Not every, but the most uh significant.

So maybe you're gonna get into that comment.

And I don't want to um cut you out, but I don't want to get too far into the discussion without it being a very good thing.

Very good.

So that's um does this person does Lynn Design Studio know that we want to agendize this?

Do you know?

No, but the city purchased had a contract with this um designer and purchased these plans.

Great.

Um it's not an intellectual property issue.

It pardon me?

It is not.

Okay.

That's what I was wondering.

Okay, very good.

Um were there other comments?

I just have a little FYI that one of our real endangered houses is finally going to come to some sort of fruition in the next couple weeks, the the bamboo house on Franklin Street.

Um apparently it's been tied up in litigation ever since the owner died several years ago and had been abandoned years before that.

And I got a call from a real estate agent last week saying that it finally been sorted out and would be coming on the market probably in the next week or ten days.

And that you know, that house is a beautiful house, and it'll be an exciting thing for us to deal with.

So they get rid of the bamboo yet?

Bamboo is mostly that is tough.

From what I've heard, it's been bank-owned for the last six or seven months, and they've actually been sending a crew out once a month to clean up the mess.

So thank you for the update.

Um the only question and comment that I have is and maybe it's where you're going, is what's going on with the um Thomas Earl House.

Um been in recent discussions actually with the the same property owner about reissuance of building permits.

So no intention to change what was entitled, just intention to get permits reissued again.

So it hasn't died.

It hasn't died with the current owner of the property then.

No.

No.

And it's the same owner and the same plans.

Is that where it is?

As of right now, same owner, same plans.

There has been some pad work that you've probably seen that has occurred on site, substantial amount of pad work.

Um so discussions are being had with that and to probably the satisfaction of the commission, no intention to modify those entitlements.

Okay.

That's good to hear.

Is that um at a request because they want to proceed or because they want to keep it the property marketable with an active permit?

Um I don't want to speculate as to the main reasons, but in discussions to get permits reissued again.

Um property owners have their own rights.

So whether they intend to sell or don't is outside of the purview of staff.

So that was not disclosed then.

Or does it?

I I don't understand the the entire financial relationship that exists.

So I I don't want to speculate.

Sure.

Thank you.

That is excellent news.

Do you know if you have have you either of you checked in or anyone?

Because I know um Michael Walker did every now and then.

Everything that's stored off site.

Do we know that that's still intact and safe and uh where is do you know anything about that?

I haven't discussed that recently, but willing to provide you an update at the next uh meeting.

I would appreciate that because really you don't have much of a historic structure without all those walls.

Anyway.

Anyway, so I appreciate any and all uh updates on that.

Um and then I guess we'll get to clarification, but can you clarify?

Isn't the Napa Bajo Fuller Park?

That is a federal historic district, not local, correct?

That's correct.

But the Calistoga is only a local.

Exactly.

So that is not uh the Calistoga district signage program.

It it so that needs to be clarified.

Because it said both of these neighborhoods are recognized as national register, historic places and local landmark districts, or to designate them as local landmark districts, but the Calistoga already is, right?

Or no, yes.

Calistoga is a local landmark district, yes.

That's correct.

And just to I don't want to get too far into the discussion.

Okay, right.

Sorry, agenda.

Anyway, just that needs clarification.

Okay.

I think that is everything.

I appreciate everyone's patience, tenacity, and time, including staff, and I appreciate you listening to us and wrangling with important issues issues to us.

So I think with uh Do you have another one?

Yeah, oh I can provide you with updates.

Oh, please.

Um what the commission doesn't typically regularly see is development that's occurring adjacent to historic resources.

Right.

But uh a huge part of what staff does is still require certain historic analyses be performed to make sure that development adjacent to and although strict standards don't apply to them, context matters.

Um of note.

Are we talking about what's going up?

Of note.

I was gonna ask that.

I I would be surprised if you if you haven't seen the construction site that's occurring in the middle of downtown.

Um obviously count went through planning commission, went through city council, adopted a development agreement, so sequencing of events has occurred a little outside typical norm, two tower cranes in the middle of downtown um and construction occurring at a pretty rapid pace.

But contextually, as part of council's consideration context within the urban grid that existed well before the redevelopment that they saw with Dwight Murray Plaza.

Um the the project one, I do want to at least state that that a building permit, uh, you know, final building permit for both the the two primary buildings was actually issued today.

Um I know you see that there's construction on sites because sequencing of certain permits occurred outside of the typical norm.

So yes, there was foundation structural, and then they received the final permit issued today.

Um part of that consideration that went into the design guidelines is the context that matters both with the Gordon building adjacent to it next door, an ode to the Migliovaca building that existed there prior to it.

So what you'll find is an entrance to the primary hotel building that it um will be off of First Street is kind of a rounded edge as an ode to that Miguel Vaca building.

Height, you know, contextually for the first two stories consistent with the Gordon building before it reaches a step back, but to speak to that urban grid requirement is right, having Coomb Street and Brown Street that once was actual right-of-way and now it's been public space.

Um there would be two buildings and then um reprogrammed and improved public space areas part of the Brown Street corridor, and then there's an easement continuing from First Street Mall as it sits today as a pedestrian position.

Through the two buildings.

Yeah, down to the 9-11 memorial and then on, and you can actually connect through to Oxville Commons and over to the Oxbow area.

Um but we'll reiterate and we'll like to bring attention to certain projects like that where historical analyses, although don't apply to the project contextually in working with staff become a real um physical result of those conversations.

So if you have any questions about that first street project, feel free to send me an email.

Happy to provide you with information there.

Can even get you in contact with uh the applicant to kind of walk you through that.

Uh I was I'm glad you brought it up because I was gonna say that um I appreciate it because I was on the downtown specific plan committee years ago with the whole things of the heights of buildings and it steps up, you know, as it goes towards uh away from first.

I was I'm glad you brought it up because I was going to say that um I appreciate it because I was on the downtown specific plan com committee years ago with the whole things of how the heights of buildings and it steps up you know as it goes towards uh away from first and I I haven't seen the most current elevations and I did through other people see things but uh I also worked on the um a basically a historic report for the brand uh for the Gordon building with uh NAPA design partners and work to get that easement I mean the uh facade um easements and saving that so I can't tell you how much I applaud what has occurred as far as the heights and matching heights and uh paying deference to the historic building that is fronting this large large structure going up.

So I do kind of I don't know I haven't seen the most recent elevation so I'm wondering if is there a way we can see how that kind of ties in at this point or where is that?

Yeah happy to to provide you with those resources um probably in in m multiple ways um we online we do have access to those to show the project um but I'll I'll send you an email to to give you I didn't know if there's a f you know more updated version I haven't looked more recently how you stuff so there are plans that were approved with a design review permit.

Great and then um to give context to kind of the public space happy to walk you through okay any of those plans.

Anyway thank you very much anyone else anyone I think this meeting is adjourned then.

Thank you so much.

Thank you staff appreciate everything.

And it's we beat eight o'clock