Good evening, colleagues.

Those in the chamber, Wilson to the committee on finance.

Today is Wednesday, November 19th at 7 o'clock, and we're in the council chamber.

Colleagues, um, considering the items that are on the agenda today, I'd like to begin the um finance meeting tonight with a moment of silence for school committee men Bruce Onro.

Will you please stand?

Thank you.

There's a good man, you'd be sitting in that back row.

That head would be shining.

I am joined in the council chamber tonight by my colleagues in government, Councilor at Large Ian Abrew, Council Ward 2, Maria Giesta, Council Ward 1, Leo Shouquette, Council Ward 6, Ryan Pereira, Council Ward 3, Sean Oliver, and myself, Counselor at Large and Finance Chair Linda Morrad.

Thank you all for being here.

Uh this meeting is being uh live streamed and recorded in the city council and committee meetings can be viewed on the City of New Bedford's homepage under quick links and then meetings.

I'll ask the clerk if we have anything to read into the record.

I do.

I have one letter to read in the record.

Um it's from Councillor Lopes.

I am waiting to inform you that regretfully I will be unable to attend the committee on finance meeting on Wednesday, November 19th, 2025, due to a previously scheduled work commitment.

Please read this letter into the record to make my colleagues in the public aware of the reason for my absence.

Motion will receive and place on file.

Motion to receive and place on file made by Council Pereira, second by Council Oliver.

Any discussion on receiving and placing on file?

All those in favor say aye.

Aye.

Opposed, the ayes have it.

Chair would also like to recognize we've been joined by counselor at large Brian Gomes and Councillor at Large Naomi Carney as well.

Colleagues, um item number one on the count on the uh finance agenda.

Uh unfortunately, Councilor Lopes ended up with a commitment today that he couldn't get out of.

So I have spoken with the attendees on this item.

You will see that they are not in the room with the exception of Bob Ekstrom.

And so I'll ask the c body to keep item number one on the table, and we will discuss that at a later date.

It's already on the table.

It's gonna remain right.

Ask the clerk to read item two, please.

Item number two is a communication, Mayor Mitchell to the city council submitting an order that in accordance with section 19-7 C of the New Bedford Code of Ordinances.

The mayor is hereby authorized to advertise and negotiate the salary of and higher between now and March 1st, 2026 for the position of executive finance and operation manager in the auditors' office.

The matter was referred here on October 23rd, 2025.

And 2A is the order.

Motion receive and place on file.

Motion to receive and place on file, made by Council Oliver.

Second.

Second by Council Pereira.

Any discussion on receiving and placing on file.

All those in favor say aye.

Aye.

Opposed, the ayes have it.

Uh we've invited several folks.

Who's taken the lead?

Quinlin.

Can you take the podium, please?

Thank you.

Good evening, City Council members.

Good evening.

So yes, I uh currently am hiring for an executive finance operations specialist for my role.

It's um I'm advertising it as an accounts table manager, but that's pretty much what the role is.

Um the role's been posted since September 10th.

The job's been taken since September of 22nd.

Um currently I've had to date 38 applications.

I've reached out to 24 of them who I felt were qualified for the role.

Um those there were four internal candidates.

And um I've had let's see, 12 in for the first round interviews.

I've had four in for the second round.

I've actually had two different candidates that I've offered the role to.

And unfortunately, one decided to pursue a different opportunity, and one also decided to keep their current role.

So today I'm kind of back at square one, continuing my interview.

I've also had um six candidates who have said to me that the salary that I'm able to offer is too low for them.

They're not able to consider that.

These are all candidates that have basically the accounts payable manager experience right now.

They're in these roles themselves right now.

Um they've said that they're making in the 90s, they're making uh over six figures.

Um so I feel that for me to try and get a qualified applicant for the role.

If I'd be able to offer up to the step three, that might give me a better opportunity to bring these in for an interview and uh see if they'd be interested in the role.

So currently the role starts at 83,441 dollars.

Step two is 87,613, uh and step three is 91,994.

So again, I feel like by able to offer it as step three that these candidates that are on the fence of even coming in for an interview may be willing to come in for an interview at the higher salary.

Okay, thank you.

Before I take questions from the floor, Bob or Jose, do you wish to add anything here?

Hey, Ken, is that okay?

Sure.

Good evening.

Again, another day.

So one of the things that uh has happened with with the support and recruiting some some of the talent that we desperately need is how we engage their talent to come in.

As you know, we are posting the positions, and when we post the positions, they have to be at a step one.

And then once we do this, it it is an up on the private sector very common to negotiate salaries.

That's not a luxury that we have in this particular uh setting.

But some candidates who are very much qualified come in.

They still feel that there's an opportunity to negotiate salaries, but once the conversation gets serious, even though this is disclosed many times at the at the very beginning, they always hope it would be a little bit more.

So, in circumstances sometimes very private to them, they feel that it's a tremendous amount of sacrifice when they have to go down for substantial pay.

So Quillin here today was not just to say this is the number of people that have applied, the number of people that I have interviewed, but as a common denominator there.

The the pay starting at step one, it becomes quite challenging.

One to attract, two to bring that that position being filled all the way through, and then three, hopefully, hopefully getting the offer accepted and and starting to.

So just to put into perspective, this is going on on three months.

And uh one of the things that I have a concern is right after Thanksgiving, people don't move.

People don't want to start new jobs.

And then after that, um it becomes a little bit even more difficult for the month of January into February.

So instead of doing this, something that could help them out now, it could prolong for five, six months.

Okay, thank you.

Yeah, before I Bob, what's the podium though?

Did you want the podium, Bob?

Okay, yeah.

And then I'll open the floor to questions.

So yes, good evening.

Thank you.

Uh Madam Chair.

Uh I would just wanted to add that uh so this will be the third request that we've made in the finance department so far to advertise at step three, up to step three.

Uh track record is that we did hire one person meeting the whole three this third step, and one we were able to bring in at step one.

So we're one in one right now.

Um this is kind of a delicate position.

We uh we centralized accounts payable uh in 2017, and as a staff of about five uh people who do the work right now, it's validating invoices, basically auditing them, making sure that uh quantities have been received and are in acceptable order.

Uh uh purchase orders or contracts were uh entered into uh under 30 B when required.

Uh we make sure that the clerical accuracy of the invoice is intact.

We make sure that uh department heads sign off.

We check coding, and we've had a number of situations where invoices have been miscoded, and a few of those have led to transfers.

We forced departments to come back and ask for transfers uh because they were being charged to uh line items that did not have enough budget.

So there's a lot of uh good that goes into this process.

Uh we cut about a thousand checks a week, I think four hundred from the school side, and they do their own audit thing at the school department, and we do about six hundred uh in the municipal government.

A lot of money going on, there's a lot of opportunities for mistakes.

So it is an important position, and I had recommended the quill in that if you can't get somebody after a couple of months that we may need to pursue this as uh as another resource, not necessarily hiring at step three, only to have permission to advertise at that step.

Thank you for the opportunity.

Thank you.

Yep.

All right, Chair recognizes Council Pereira and then Council Oliver.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Uh Quillin.

Um I Bob kind of alluded to it at the last statement, but again, this this is allowing to negotiate up to step three.

And obviously, we rely on your judgment to only offer such uh uh a salary as to their qualifications, and that's something you feel comfortable being able to judge.

Yes.

Okay.

Um I will say that I uh was skeptical about this uh ordinance.

Uh so far it's been good, but I've said this every time someone's come before us.

Just don't abuse it or or I'm not gonna feel comfortable approving this.

But it sounds like you've tried to figure it out, and it looks like you might need some of this help.

Um internals, how many proceeded to interviews?

Uh I had interviewed three internal candidates.

There were four, but one of them decided to withdraw and stay in the three.

Three were interviewed.

Okay.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

You're welcome.

Can you recognize Council Oliver?

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Uh Quill and thank you uh for being here.

Uh so just so I have there was 38 total applicants, correct?

Yes, as of today.

Of those 38, you interviewed 24?

Is that the same thing?

I had 24 that I had reached out to.

But you reach out to the other.

Um in person, yeah.

So I typically try and do a phone screen first.

And this is where I've kind of explained my limitations on the salary offering, and that's where people have realized that you know I don't want to pursue this further.

So it kind of reduced the amount of people I could bring in.

Um of those twelve.

You had interviewed you had um spoken with two that pretty much got an offer and then they're correct.

Okay.

Yes.

Um But you had alluded to uh either neighboring towns or other municipalities uh being uh you know somewhere in the six figures.

Do you feel that step three is we're still going to be competitive with some of these people?

Possibly some of them, yeah.

I mean, people are in different companies throughout Massachusetts.

So you know some are saying I'm in the mid-90s myself, some are in I'm six figures, so it really depends.

But all their resumes show that they're basically an accountable manager right now.

With with the ability of going to being able to negotiate up to step three, is there somebody in that pool that comes to mind already that you that may be willing to accept that?

Or are we looking to just continue on with the application process?

Uh I would be doing both.

So of the people that I have mentioned, they wouldn't be willing to come at the step one, but would be the step three.

I haven't had them come in for an interview yet, because to me I don't want to just waste either of our time with that.

So I've said if I was able to get this permission that I would then have them come in and we could negotiate from there.

So their resumes look good, but I haven't actually brought them in for a formal interview yet.

And then I assume obviously in your when you're evaluating, obviously, experience is going to be a key factor in that if they're in the job now, if they've done it before, versus somebody just stepping getting into this profession.

Um again, uh to to reiterate, I I just don't want it to be abused.

It seems like we're we're using it properly.

You know, we were able to, you know, negotiate one at at a three, one at a one.

Um hopefully this will entice folks if we go this way.

But um I would just um obviously I just don't want it to be a we automatically go go to the, you know.

Sure, I understand.

Thank you.

All right, that's all I have right now, madam chair.

Thank you.

Thank you, Counselor.

Chair recognizes Council Abrew.

Thank you, madam chair.

Good evening, Quinn.

Good to see you.

Um I'm just thinking in terms of long-term impact.

Um, if we were to uh favorably send out this order to the full council and adopt it.

How do you believe this position will um improve the financial oversight and reporting of your office?

Like explain w why you think this is needed and what the value and the return on the investment is for us if we were to go forward in the affirmative on this order.

Sure.

Yeah, so I think having someone coming in with this account people manager experience already and having this level of pay where they're currently at.

Um this person is basically gatekeeping all the invoices that the city pays.

Um so this is a really important role that makes sure that no department is able to go over budget.

We're not processing any invoice of the wrong account or the wrong fund.

Um they're managing a team of five people as well, four union and one non-union.

So they would be overseeing five individuals themselves and all the different um skill levels, personalities, and just keeping the department going.

Um also working with other departments throughout the city, um, even outside vendors.

So they have a lot of responsibility in this role, and I feel like bringing someone in that already has this level of experience would basically be able to hit the ground running and potentially even bring in some new skills that we don't have in our team, be able to train the rest of the team with some new um ways to do it, or just enhancing our audit process.

Okay.

Um I to assume or do we uh how to assume that um you will have uh metrics or benchmarks in place to judge the efficiency or effectiveness of this of this new hire?

Yes.

So typically for us, you know, as long as we're not hearing any sort of feedback from departments that we're doing something wrong to me, that's a good metric there.

Um but otherwise, if we're seeing a lot of voids and checks, for example, you know, we're paying an incorrect GL or even sometimes an incorrect vendor or doing GL modifications because we're having the wrong account have to reclassify it.

To me, those are all metrics that show that there was something wrong that we had to go back and correct.

So for me, that's uh a way to monitor um the amount of changes we have to make basically.

Okay, thank you very much.

I'll yield thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you.

Chair recognizes Council Giesta.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good evening, Quinn.

Good morning.

Um just a couple of questions.

What kind of salary were people interested in, just for the record?

What what were the interviewees?

Um, what were they looking at?

Uh they were looking, I think around the mid-90s for the most part, 95 or so.

So the step three being at the almost 92,000.

Some people are like, okay, that's a bit of a pay cut for me, but it's a better work-life balance, so to me that's a good, you know, trade-off there.

And you have nobody in-house that's interested.

I have had some internal candidates apply, but ultimately the team and I decided that they weren't the people for the role.

Each time we've had a candidate withdraw that I've offered to, I've gone back to the team, be like, all right, how about these other internal candidates that we've interviewed?

Should we give them another chance, or do we go out and see who else is out there?

And the general consensus has been let's see who else is out there.

Um what was the basis for not looking at those candidates that are they just didn't have the accounts payable experience that I'm looking for?

You know, they understand municipalities, they understand um accounts payable to a certain extent, but they've done you know, some they've done it, I guess, a little bit in their career.

So, especially with them being internal, I decided you know, wanted to give them a chance coming inside.

But you know, it was me and two other members of my team plus a member in the CFO's office.

We've all interviewed them and you know, we've all been coming to a consensus together that we feel like there might be someone else out there that is better suited for the role, has more managerial experience with staff, the actual accounts payable experience uh in an organization they're at currently.

So you believe they don't have enough accounts payable experience.

Correct, yes.

So that's the biggest concern.

Yeah, I think for myself and my team and for the city that we really need someone that knows accounts payable.

The amount of invoices we get every day is critical that we get every single one of them right.

Um especially our system is very manual system, everything has to be entered in manually, so it's very prone to just key punch errors and other errors.

So having someone come in that has the experience of knowing how to catch these errors, um enhancing procedures, making things more efficient, to me that's what's really important that I want for this role.

Well, maybe going forward we can do a better job in training the people that we have.

Because I think it's good that we promote within.

You know, I I get it that sometimes you have to go outside, but I think it's also important to promote the people that we have.

So but thank you.

I appreciate it.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Uh, before I recognize anyone else, Chair would like to acknowledge that we've been joined by Council Ward Ford, Derek Baptiste, and Council President, Counselor at Large, Shane Burgo.

Anyone else on the first?

So from the chair.

Um Quinlin, I thank you for the explanation to Councillor Giester about internal candidates.

I I too feel that way.

I'm glad to hear that you you think that way.

Is there anybody else in your team that's a similar grade level?

Uh my assistant city auditor and the uh grants auditor.

They're similar.

They're similar level.

So does it cause concern for you bringing someone in brand new at a step other than one as it relates to their positions in your department?

Um other words, are they all significantly higher than $91,000?

Yes, these other two individuals have been with the city for over 10 years.

So that's my other concern as well.

Um having someone that works side by side who's been here that period of time.

Um taking the time to go up by the steps and then to bring somebody in brand new that doesn't have to take the process.

Um sometimes that can be um demoralizing in a department.

So I've I have a great team.

We are all very transparent with each other.

I've talked to them about this, and everyone agrees, you know, there's no issue with me proceeding this way.

Okay, I appreciate it.

I'd like to ask Bob the same question.

So you have various departments under your realm of responsibility.

Um, you know, I asked the same question to you.

Do you have any concerns about bringing someone in at a step other than one as it relates to other people who you've either recently hired or have on your team?

No, no, ma'am, I really don't.

Uh this is going to be a very different kind of job, and quite frankly, I don't know if we have a lot of interest.

Uh everyone, I'm going across all six offices within finance, and uh it's a very special niche uh looking at accounts payable, and there's no one really that has expressed an interest other than the internal candidates.

Yeah, but that's not what I mean.

I mean, do you have other people within your realm who are similar job grade who again have been going up through the steps and might have a concern about it?

I I see, I see what you're saying.

Yeah, I think the human uh element would say that you you might see that, but I really don't think we have anybody on a step three or anything there.

Most of our people that are on those grades are like the two that Brendan I'm sorry, I wonder if that was my speaking of the.

No names here, I'm sorry.

Krillin.

The two that Quillin mentioned have been here for a very long time on their institutional knowledge is off the charts.

And they're on the higher ends.

I want to say step seven to ten, somewhere around there.

And uh, quite frankly, those two individuals and many other people on our staff uh don't mind it because they know that help is needed and they know that this is a a niche that they don't want to fill themselves, and they would it helps them out when they know they're getting someone seasoned that comes in.

It's really not a um uh this is gonna be a turnkey position.

It's really not something we can train into right now.

We have we have four or five other people, and uh one was not interested in in moving up.

Uh Quillan is always looking to do something like that, but we need to have someone that can manage these people right away.

Uh it is pretty scary.

Uh, I will give you a story that comes from back in 2017.

Uh when I was a city auditor, I had done an after-the-fact review of some records.

Come to find out that our staff led a uh a $212,000 payment to a contract to go through, was not an invoice.

It was a task order.

A task order means that the work hasn't even started yet.

Yet the the uh the entire task order was fully paid and it gotten through.

These are the kind of dangers that happen in this position.

We have to have people doing the job and someone standing over them to catch it.

If you're 90 percent right and the supervisor is 90 percent right, that's a 99 percent chance of uh catching an error.

It's just not something it's it's something that this vacancy is something I don't sleep well knowing is still open right now.

Well, I appreciate your explanation.

I know I've told you this story before.

I'm gonna tell it to you one more time.

Um my boss made me hire somebody at my salary that was going to work for me.

And uh it bothered the heck out of me.

So don't take it, don't think that it doesn't bother people because it definitely does.

Yeah, I can appreciate them, yes.

Okay.

It's why I always ask the question.

So thank you.

Anyone else?

Thank you.

Colleagues, your pleasure.

Motion referred for the full city council with a favorable recommendation for adoption made by Council Pereira, second by Councillor Abrew.

Any discussion on the item?

All those in favor say aye.

Aye.

Opposed?

The ayes have it.

Thank you.

Item number three is communication.

Mayor Mitchell to the City Council submitting an order and a lease agreement between the New Bedford Airport Commission and Sam Piper Air for the access to a certain tract of land for the operation and servicing of aircraft and related activities.

It was referred here on September 25, 2025.

3A is the order referred on the same day.

And 3B is the lease agreement, which was also referred on this September 25th, 2025.

Three 3A and 3B are now before you.

Motion received and place on file 3, 3A, and 3B.

Motion to receive and place on file items 3A, uh 3, 3A, and 3B, made by Council Abers, second by Councillor Burgo.

Any discussion on receiving and placing on file?

All those in favor say aye.

Aye.

Opposed, the ayes have it.

Uh we have Bob and Scott tonight.

Welcome.

I'm not as tall.

Uh Scott Service, Director of Aviation.

Uh this is a 30-year lease with two five-year renewals for a possibility of total of 40 years.

Um it is gonna be backdated to November first, 2022, which is when their lease expired.

It has five-year adjustments in it, either by appraisal or CPI.

To exercise the two five-year renewals, there will have to be a capital investment by the owner of $300,000 prior to those additional five years, two of them being applied.

Not quite sure.

Is that your presentation?

They've been here since 1997.

Their lease expired.

We've negotiated a new lease, which was approved by the airport commission.

And now we bring it in front of the city council for approval.

Okay, thank you.

Council Gomes, can you take that to the hall, please?

Thank you.

Okay, colleagues.

Chair recognizes Council Oliver?

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Scott, I will I think we were all waiting for a PowerPoint.

But uh you said the um before extensions could be granted that a capital improvement um would have to be um rendered uh what type of uh uh what are we what's the city looking for with that capital improvement if they chose to do that?

So it would have to be approved by the airport commission for what the capital improvement is.

It couldn't just be a pile of receipts that added up too.

Um so traditionally it would be their upgrades to their fuel farm, roof to the building, structure to the building, major renovations, HVAC or something along the lines that would keep the building and the facility up to speed so that when the end of the lease comes, it's still a viable building to move forward.

And that's so that's rolling receipts through the lease, is that what that is?

So if like they needed an HVAC system tomorrow, does that that would does that count towards that?

They would need to get airport commission approval to see if it would qualify.

So if you know, if let's say they wanted to pave their parking lot and they haven't done any maintenance on it, that may not be something that's approved.

Um but if it's something that timed out, you know, the HVAC system is 20, 30 years old and needs major upgrades, that would probably be something that would be approved.

You know, similar to like a roof, you know, you don't replace a roof until it's aged out.

What's the um condition of that track of land currently?

Currently the building is in good shape.

It's been well maintained.

Um they have a couple of sub tenants in there that are offered using the office space.

Um it did have a new roof put on, or at least the roof fixed and the cladding on the side of the new building fixed in the last five years.

I think the major upgrade that probably would be next would be the fuel farm.

Now that you said that they they sublet some space, have those people been good tenants as far as you know?

Have we had any issues with them as far as the and overall you've said that they've been a good tenant throughout their current lease and hoping to continue through this one?

Yes.

Okay.

All right, thank you.

That's all, madam chair.

Thank you.

Anybody else?

Chair recognizes Council Pereira?

So the maintenance requirement, can you speak to that a little bit as far as ongoing maintenance?

So what we're trying to assure, trying to do is that they maintain the facility.

And we have different things stipulated in the lease for you know, painting the building and keeping it up.

But also when buildings get over a certain age, we want to see capital improvements that are invested in it.

So you're not just painting the old building to make it look better.

You know, you're actually maintaining it so it's not getting run down at the end of it.

Because a lot of these leases end up, you know, we we get the ground back.

They own the building.

Um the fear is that they may just want to leave the building and walk away at the end of it, which leaves us with a building that's derelict.

So we're starting to put things into these leases as they come up so that they're keeping up with the improvements so that we don't fall into that.

I mean, there are recourses if they do, because we can have them remove the building when they're done, but you know, when somebody terminates a lease and leaves, it's hard to make them do something after the fact.

Right.

So we're trying to get some few things put in there that are preemptive ahead of time.

Okay.

And will there be an annual inspection of the proper of the facility?

Will there be uh an inspection and who will carry that out?

There will be inspections if they do the capital improvements that are then approved by the airport commission.

Yeah, i.e.

they put in a new HVAC system.

We'll want to see the But will the will will the airport be monitoring the building moving forward?

Not actively.

Okay.

You know, not like every year we go in and we want to do a walkthrough.

Right.

I don't really quite have the training for that.

Okay.

Um not that you can't tell walking through a building if something's awful.

But but I'm not a structural engineer on on those sides of things.

You know, it when it comes to the fuel farm, that is inspected quarterly by the fire department.

Okay.

And then also by the DEP, it gets checked once a year and signed off by that.

Okay.

Very good.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you.

Anyone else?

So, Scott from the chair.

Um, Sampiper Air has been a tenant in the airport how long, please?

Since 1997.

1997.

And have there been any issues with uh payment or negotiation of the prior leases?

Um they've made a few late payments, but they're up to date as of right now.

Okay.

You know, that sometimes they fall behind a month or two, we notify them and they catch right back up.

Overall, they've been a good tenant.

Okay.

It hasn't been too hard to chase them down, it's usually just a reminder, and then we get the the payment for it.

Okay.

And 30 cents per square foot.

Is that competitive on the airport uh property today?

That is based on the appraisal we had about four years ago.

And it's the same rate that the other two FBOs are paying, and it's what they're currently paying, which is why we backdated it to 2022 so that their five-year adjustment they wouldn't get you know two or three years at one rate and then wait another five for the next to kind of keep them on the same track as everyone else.

Okay.

And then we have the ability to do another appraisal and reassess it or do a cumulative CPI increase.

Okay.

So they're currently paying what per square foot based on the 2022 appraisal?

30 cents.

Oh, they currently the same.

Yes.

There's been no changes.

As soon as the old lease expired, we raise them to the fair market value that we had on the appraisal.

Uh say that again.

As soon as their lease expired in 2022.

Okay.

They became a tenant at will and we we increased their rate at that time.

Okay.

And this will extend through 2027 at which time they'll renegotiate.

Correct.

Okay, good.

All right.

Thank you for answering my questions.

Colleagues, any other questions?

Pleasure?

Motion or motion to refer to the full city council for adoption.

Made by Council Oliver.

Second by Council Burgo.

Any further discussion on the item before us?

All those in favor say aye.

Aye.

Opposed, the ayes have it.

Um this I neglected to mention this in the two items before.

They will be reported out on next Tuesday's agenda, uh November 25th.

Okay.

Okay.

Thank you.

Very good.

Item number four is a communication.

Mayor Mitchell to the City Council submitting an order for the City of New Bedford to accept a donation of real estate from Whalen Development Corp.

Consisting of two parcels shown on City of New Bedford assessors map 132 as lot 62, and the second on map 132 is lot six.

It was referred to here on September 25th, 2025.

4A is the order referred on the same day.

Four and four A are now before you.

Motion receive and place on file.

Motion received and place on file made by Council Pereira.

Second by Council Giesta.

Any discussion on receiving and placing on file?

All those in favor say aye.

Opposed, the ayes have it.

Colleagues, also uh today you received a uh package of information.

It's on your desk.

Okay, motion received and place on file.

Made by Council Oliver, second by Council Pereira.

Uh any discussion on receiving and placing on file?

All those in favor say aye.

Opposed the ayes have it.

All right.

We invited uh Michelle Paul.

She asked for Chance Perks to join us.

I don't know who's taking the lead.

Welcome.

Thank you very much, everyone.

Madam Counselor.

Uh Madam Chair, I mean.

Um I am going to, with your permission, uh hand it over to Chance.

He's really been shepherding this and stewarding it through the process.

We're working very hard.

Okay.

Welcome, Chance.

Good evening, folks.

My first time doing this.

Uh, this is a great learning opportunity first and foremost.

Uh so thank you for your time.

We'll try not to draw too much blood.

Do it do what you must.

Shall I give a presentation?

Oh, excuse me.

Okay.

Um we have the opportunity to protect a significant chunk of land in the headwaters of the Atlantic Cedar Swamp.

That's the that's the priority there.

Um as you know, with environmental stewardship and with myself in conservation, um, our eyes are on the water.

Our eyes are on the water for both for its benefit, but also for its risk mitigation.

Um the parcels that are uh presented to you uh today are are significant to both that protection and future utilization.

Um I also want to acknowledge the packet that you received today.

It was I have to take responsibility for it was under my I was under the impression that you folks were shared this packet prior digitally, and it wasn't until um uh a recent conversation that we bundled up something physical to give to you.

Uh so if that wasn't the correct process, I take responsibility for that.

That's okay.

We understood that there was a miscommunication.

So thank you.

And again, learning opportunity here.

Um so in total, we're looking at 12 acres.

We're looking at two lots.

Um this came about in a really interesting and serendipitous way.

Um story short, while on an inspection, I heard uh a cascade.

I heard a waterfall, which is rare in New Bedford, and I'm like, what is that?

Um we were uh I was overseeing Eversources work with a gas main in Phillips Road, as I often do.

Um we watched their work closely, heard this cascade of water, I'm like, that's unique.

Started poking around the bushes, and lo and behold, found this uh historical sawmill um foundation in the forest, and everybody I asked, no one had any idea it was there.

Um so that of course piqued my interest.

Um, and we started sharing and digging and and going through it, finding the current owner, having conversations that led to this um led to this donation.

Uh especially when we found if you flip through the packet and you see that old historical um kind of map on the fourth page, technically fifth page, it shows very clearly um that this is one of two uh main headwaters of the Atlantic Cedar Swamp, as many of you know, is a uh prize natural resource here in the city.

Um so I'm happy to uh answer any questions.

Um we created this kind of FAQ, if you will.

Um so the primary, you know, in anticipation to answer your questions and the questions of the public, um, we put this together to to hopefully put the facts and figures uh before you folks to to help you know highlight some of the questions you may have.

But I of course can keep talking about a hell I can talk all night about this stuff.

All right, let me let me see first.

Um do we have do we want additional information here?

Do you want a chance to continue to chat?

Are there questions?

Chair recognizes Council Pereira.

Thank you, madam chair.

Chance, what would be can you speak to any maintenance that would have to go into this property if accepted?

Great question.

Um not luckily, we are looking at these properties because of their uh location and that they're not on dead end streets, they're not dumping locations, they're not prime areas like we see in other parts of the city that that are um frequent um hot spots for illicit activity that doesn't happen here.

In fact, when I was uh going through this process with the solicitor's office, and they've been wonderful in coaching me through this, uh coaching us through this, they require that I go out there and and gorilla crawl through the bush to make sure there's no trespass and no dumping.

Um and to my surprise, it was very little.

Only thing I found was uh a shack that some kids had built uh during COVID, and I politely asked them to remove it just to make sure everything was clear.

Um so it so in terms of a maintenance from like an illicit dumping standpoint, these parcels don't have um uh a real challenge with that.

What's really interesting, if you look here, and again I tried supplying from some photos, it's a pretty tight spot.

But if we look at that small parcel right on Phillips Road, there's a culvert that goes underneath that um the goes up underneath Phillips Road.

Interestingly, back in the 1700s, this used to be called Bridge Street because there was a notable bridge over that stream at the time that uh the sawmills were being installed and Grismo installed.

So it was significant uh in the past as a as a uh obstacle as a water water body.

The culvert that is there now, I I don't have a date for it, but from my limited understanding, I'm not a civil engineer, it's quite undersized.

And so in the future, especially as we continue to look at risk mitigation and increasing the capacity for water conveyance of our city infrastructure, that culvert will inevitably come up as something that needs to be um increased in size.

By our owning this parcel, it's going to make the it foreseeably could make the process of upgrading of that infrastructure a bit easier because we own the land.

So I think there's a future value in that.

Um but again, not as an engineer, I can't answer specifics to that.

In terms of maintenance, also one thing I want to point out, and I know it's quite small, and I apologize.

On the photo on the front of this document, you can see that this land surrounds some of the you know nicer neighborhoods in the area.

If you notice, if you actually look at each individual parcel, half the parcel is wooded, and then the house is right up against the road.

That's key to the success of this parcel in terms of the minimization of the um maintenance.

As some of you know, we get calls from residents saying, Oh, a city tree is about to fall on my house.

Each one of these lots almost unanimously has a significant portion of their private land between their house and what will what could invariably be city owned land.

That tree failure and tree risk isn't a factor because they own a hundred feet or more of the forest.

So we don't we don't anticipate um a bunch of calls saying, oh, now that you own that land, we have all these trees that are leaning on all the property and they hit my house.

There's almost an acre of land behind them or slightly less that that is their land.

So we won't have that problem.

There is this one uh pinch point that we already maintain.

Um it's a culvert that goes underneath the road um to that small spur of a neighborhood.

We already maintained that, and we also already have the care and custody of the two detention ponds, the infrastructure for storm water in those areas.

We already maintain them.

Um so it wouldn't be an increase of uh labor on our behalf.

Okay.

My last question, that small parcel that's um that you mentioned that has a culvert on it or anything.

Is there any issues out with that piece of land in regards to the roadway at this point?

Not to my knowing, but again, not as a civil engineer.

Um and the covert technically is probably is already part of our right of way, isn't part of the isn't part of the parcel itself.

That small parcel again is more the cultural relic that is significant to the project.

Okay.

Very good.

I I don't have any questions at this time, Madam Chair.

Thank you.

Thank you, Council.

Chair recognized Council Oliver.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Uh Chance, thank you uh for being here.

Um these photos that were taken, the grist mill, the foundation, and where about is that in the actual map that you have on the front?

So yeah, so the most of the photo is because it's absolutely gorgeous, and I invite every one of you, I'd love to show you in person.

Um and you're looking at that stone structure and you're going, wow, how is that in New Bedford?

That's again on that small parcel.

And it's if you were standing on Phillips Road and you look east onto the parcel, you're gonna see a bunch of vegetation.

Um, and that we will address in the future.

Um you'd be looking at it.

And once we clear that vegetation away from the road, you'll be able to see it.

Um not uh tangent, but this is one of those locations that I I firmly believe will be prom night when people are taking their photos, they always find that kind of cultural spot.

They go in front of Fort Tabor, they go up to Quitticus, they go to um uh Hamlin Street in a cushion it and they want to take their wedding and prom photos in front of the stone.

This will be a location like that.

It'll be very easy access, short walk.

It's right on the road, which is amazing, um, and it's a beautiful cascade with a relic stone dam behind it.

Um the dam is not a registered dam, so it's not something that we would be taking on as a uh liability for under the Office of Dam Safety and Management and stuff like that.

Uh they don't even know it exists.

Um so hopefully I answered your question, maybe.

Yeah, actually, you you you went where I was kind of going with that the the accessibility or future accessibility.

Yeah.

Um right now it's not accessible because we didn't even know that it was really there.

Um my other concern though is I know that you're talking about the hundred um foot buffer that most of these houses within the development have.

Um is there any concern with uh future ADU possibilities there since they have all that land and those folks maybe may eventually be interested in in ADU building?

Is there any concern with that as they encroach closer to that property?

There isn't, um, because luckily if they tried doing that, they would have to come talk to me.

Yeah, because those are all wetlands.

And so that that may be a bit of a challenge for their developmental aspirations.

Um, but uh I can't speak to the whole ADU um structure, uh, but I do know the re there's a reason why those parcels are designed the way they are, because it it is significant wetlands.

Uh so future development maybe may be tough in that regard.

Right.

And that's the other question that I was gonna have just for the general public.

Most of the all of this land is pretty much undevelopable.

It's undevelopable in the way we consider development, though I I firmly believe that this is a hard asset that the city could benefit from in the future.

We're talking carbon markets, we're talking control of freshwater resources.

Um in the grand scheme of things, I it it is a tangible asset for the city that I think could have some serious value in the future, uh, considering um where we are on the country and so on and so forth.

Uh the developmental pressure is high and people want to live where the water is.

Right.

Uh and aside from the aesthetics and making it a place that like a destination place for folks to take photos and things like that, um, is there any concern like you had a uh originally said you know it's the uh preserve the waterway?

Is there anything ha happening there right now that's of concern that is that we need to act upon right away to ensure that it's uh that it's clean or isn't it?

Not sure this is the right answer, but luckily no.

Okay.

Um and then uh lastly, um it's in the packet, uh, but for the uh general public, obviously it comes down to a loss of uh tax revenue for this.

Uh what is what is that?

So it looks essentially minimal.

Uh I I have no frame of reference as to what's minimal or not.

I think every tax dollar is important.

Um when we weigh the value for this parcel in perpetuity, um, again, water being better than gold.

Um I, in my opinion, believe that the $5,500 a year for 12 acres in New Bedford is um is worth the cost, especially where the addition of this acreage will get us closer to the 15% of open space, public open space available that brings us up to the national average of what municipalities our size try to strive for as we can see outlined in the open space and recreation plan.

Um we have uh really phenomenal uh public open space, whether it's our uh water supply, reservoir land, uh whether it's parks, um, uh you know, right-of-ways, things of that nature.

Um, but we have uh a little ways to go to to bring up the the proportion of that um to a city our size, even considering the Atlantic Cedar Swamp, uh, which is again phenomenal resource.

This adds to that.

Um if I may, just in case the question doesn't come up, and I I would really like to articulate this point.

There's a plan around this and hopefully future acquisitions that it's around the water.

We're we're not interested, we're not looking at acquiring wetlands for wildlife values all over, because we can speak to that until we're blue in the face.

But really, this and future acquisitions that I hope to present to you in the future are really focused on um having control that I want to stay away from that word, uh having the ability to um encompass water bodies.

Um that's what's really really uh crucial, both from an ecological standpoint, also from a flood risk mitigation standpoint.

Um our floodplains are um have been developed incongruent with today's standards, and we as community, the more we can get ahead of that and address that, it can really help us out, um especially as we look uh to frameworks like the community root eating service with FEMA um and of course the cost benefits that come with a community like ours that engages that and gets ahead of that um by preserving floodplains like these areas are so five thousand dollars potentially taken out of the tax base now, but the payback not only in owning the asset, but how it lends to supporting our enrollment in uh structures like the community rating service, I think could be really valuable valuable in the future.

And the the bigger parcel um because there is buffer zones around pretty much all the properties, um to me it's like that and I understand protecting uh these these areas seems like they're already pretty well protected because of the buffer zone.

Nobody's really going out into there or or things like that.

Has there been ever discussion about maybe accepting one of the parcels?

Uh there that of course has been um uh discussed and can continue to be discussed.

The current um discussion we've been having with the donor is to keep it all together uh for various reasons.

I do want to point out, and I was honestly going to try to avoid it.

If we look just north of the parcel, the large parcel, we see a bunch of small little squares.

There is potential.

It would be tough to find access, but when the market forces support it, anything's possible.

There are some parcels there to the north that could be developed in the future.

By taking these two parcels, it it closes one door for access.

Um as any developer will tell you, you can you can offer anybody a hundred acres, but if you can't get to it, it's near worthless.

By closing this door by acquiring both of these um both of these uh parcels, we make it a little bit more difficult to protect the uplands, which that is.

And just to be on my soapbox for two seconds, we in Massachusetts have wonderful legal protections for wetlands.

We understand their ecological and financial benefits to a community.

Um we have little to no protections for uplands, and we as Homo sapiens want to live in upland areas.

We want to live where it's uh high and dry.

Most of the wildlife that we connect with want to be high and dry.

And but we as humans have continued to develop that.

So by protecting the wetlands below the high ground can can remain for the wildlife.

So there is a value there that I didn't really want to draw our attention to.

Um, but it is very much part of the strategy of all this.

Okay.

Um that's all I have right now, Madam Chair.

Thank you.

Take care of those turtles, counselor.

Chair recognizes Council Show Cat.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Uh good evening, Chance.

Always great to chat with you.

You're like a fountain of hydrology hydrological knowledge.

Speaking of Homo sapiens, I'm wondering if you ever had a chance to speak to the head Homo sapien on the third floor about how all this wonderful waterway here is about 500 yards away from where they want to put the largest trash transfer facility in the commonwealth of Massachusetts.

It's too bad that you didn't have a chance to talk to him about all this, because I think maybe I'm not sure if he would have listened to you, but I really would have liked to have you have talked to him and explained to him that you know the waterway right there for the accusionate cedar swamp, everything you have said is 1,000 percent correct.

I went to the Dartmouth Select Board and told them the same thing that those are the headwaters for the Pascamanset River at the bottom of three mile pond, right?

And that flows right through Smith Mills and out to paid Narum Harbor.

And putting Massachusetts largest trash transfer facility over there would not be very wise.

Um is there, I guess I'm asking you, is there any chance that this discovery you made, and it's really cool.

I would love to go check it out with you at some point.

Uh has any historical value that we could use as leverage?

I mean, did George Washington sign something there, maybe or unfortunately I don't have I don't have a good answer for you on that one.

Um I uh we can talk more about that, but I haven't had any conversations with the mayor, whom I think we are referring to on that facility.

It's not part of the calculus of these of these sites.

Um I do know that what happens in industrial park is significant to the of course water supply or the uh water quality of the Atlantic Cedar swamp, but that's a separate subject, not related to these parcels.

Um so I that's unfortunately answered to you tonight.

Okay.

Yeah, I'd like to chat with you at some point in the road.

Yeah, I look forward to it.

I know you're you're you're you know you're highly educated on this stuff.

Awesome.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Uh I yield, madam chair.

Okay.

Anybody else?

So, Chance from the Chair.

Um, the package that you sent to us today said that Riverhawk, uh, which is a reputable firm did a phase one uh study to say that there was no contaminants on this parcel.

How much was that and who paid for it?

Great question.

Um I can tell you right off the bat who paid for it was the uh uh taxpayers of this community.

It was uh CPA funding that we received for both um a lot of these preliminary um investigations, uh title search and things of that nature.

Um, can you say it again?

CPA funds?

Community preservation act, yeah.

Um so with yeah, so we received 45,000 to do this investigative stuff and to um clean up and um show off the mill site.

Um this was done back in 2023, so we've it's been a slow process, so we've been keeping them abreast to the updates.

Um we haven't spent um uh we haven't spent anywhere near the 45,000 that we're hoping to um because we can't touch it until until uh hopefully it's ours.

Um but they figure on that.

Um great question.

I actually would have to get back to you if it's not in this packet, I don't remember it off the top of my head.

Um I can get that back to you.

So it came out of CPA in 2024?

Uh I thought it was 2023, it but the fiscal years, the way that runs uh confuses me every time.

Okay.

So I'd like to know the amount I probably could look it up as well, but it's easier if somebody tells me that.

And Riverhawk said there was in their preliminary phase one, there was no contaminants.

Correct.

Okay.

Uh which is exciting because in uh in a community that we are limited on clean land, it it's nice to have found that.

What other costs are associated with this acquisition?

Uh future.

Uh we don't foresee any um future cleaning up and and showing off that mill site.

Um the vegetation management um that we'd like to do for that, installing split royal fence to make a bit of an overlook, um uh a gravel uh viewing area, showing the residents of New Bedford the, you know, that there was there's more to New Brevets history than just whaling and and cotton mills, um, having a localized sawmill that probably built half the houses in that area.

It's just a really nice thing to showcase.

There will be a cost to that vegetation, um, which will be part of that CPA funds.

We, as I mentioned earlier, we expended funds for the title search.

Uh so that's where some of these older lands um they they go back.

What is that and who paid for it?

Uh that's what I want to know.

Great question.

Um there's going to be closing costs.

Who what is that estimated to be and who's going to pay for it?

Closing costs.

Uh I don't have an answer for you, but I have to get that to you.

Okay.

And one of my colleagues indicated, I mean, this prop it, these properties together are worth almost $500,000.

They're currently coded industrial A, which means that the tax base on these things is pretty high.

I don't know if they're being mitigated because it's wetland, and we're not assessing that, but somebody's paying a tax bill on these properties that will suddenly go away.

Bob's left the room, so I can ask him that question.

Oh, you oh, I'm sorry.

You're hiding.

Maybe I will ask you that question.

And I could I could answer I looked that up prior to this.

Um the larger parcel is receiving a 10-acre abatement.

Um so I don't know what the discount uh percentage on.

So they are it is getting discounted.

So for wetlands, it's pretty high.

Yeah.

Okay.

And um I know we have a representative a representative from the uh from the solicitor's office, thank you.

You know, I uh when I was reading this, I mean it just isn't you, Chance.

Wayland agrees not to list market or convey the real estate while the agreement is in force and in effect.

The city agrees not to record a notice of this agreement in any registry of deeds.

Why?

Why is that?

I mean, if we're going to take ownership of this, why would we not record our ownership of this?

Do I read this wrong?

Uh I don't I may I speak.

I don't know the answer to that.

That I'll leave to our our legal counsel.

I do want to say that from my limited perspective, the conversation for this and the whole and all this happened um at least a year prior to um the subsequent um work that was awarded to a company for work in the harbor, um which I believe is either a sister organization and or um Mr.

White, who is the current owner, now has a sizable contract.

My assumption when I see how this is all rolling out, um it might have been concern for their applying for a um they're gonna be applying to bid on a large project, and it might have it might have been they don't want to this side conversation about um donating land to be a concern with that.

Um like a conflict of interest.

That that's because that was that was well before.

So like a conflict of interest to the only assumption.

Yeah.

Okay, thank you.

Um Bob, can you answer the tax uh issue or can the solicitor's office ask to answer the title issue?

Thank you, Matt Chair.

Thank you.

Yep.

Welcome.

Thank you, Jenny.

Uh so you might want to introduce yourself to the body.

I don't think we've met before.

Good evening, counselors.

Uh, my name is Catherine.

I'm with the solicitor's office this evening.

Uh thank you again, Chance.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

So I do not have an answer for you as to your specific question as to uh that language that you reference in the purchase and sale, but I can get an answer for the council.

Um as for taxes, what I did see in the packet is um lot sixty-two, which is the plot that's valued at 141,900.

I believe the taxes come to $1,64.89.

Lot six, which is the larger of the two parcels.

Uh this one's assessed at $343,200.

And the taxes that I saw listed uh was $3,881.59 cents.

Yes, I saw that as well.

Uh what I didn't know is whether that was the discounted number or whether that's the actual number.

That's that's my question.

Yep.

We can also get that answer to you, madam chair.

So if it's the discounted number, um council Pereira, you can add those together for me, right while I'm talking.

1,605 and uh my fingers aren't working tonight.

3,882.

Can you add those together?

Yes.

Yep.

The 5,000?

Oh, thank you.

You did it?

Yeah, so it's $5,486 and forty-eight cents.

A year.

Yep.

Yes.

So forever.

A year.

So now I I'd like to donate some of my land to the city so I can reduce my tax bill as well.

But okay, thank you.

Um anybody else with questions?

Bob, you can't answer the question as to whether that's the discounted amount or the full amount, correct?

Yeah.

All right, thank you.

Uh chair recognized Council Pereira.

Just uh I in passing with solicitor Jakes, he indicated that that is the discounted number to me.

Okay.

But we still should get that clarified.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Anyone else?

Thank you both for your presentation.

Colleagues, your pleasure.

Madam Chair, this would be reported to what a point of information.

What what council agenda would this be reported to?

They're scheduled to be reported out for the 25th, which is next Tuesday.

Next Tuesday.

Chance, do you think some of the information requested could be got to the council before Tuesday?

Solicitor's office can do that as well.

Bob, the tax question can be answered as well by Tuesday.

If that's a discounted rate.

Okay.

Madam Chair, refer to the full city council for adoption of the order.

Motion to refer to the full city council for adoption.

Second.

Second made by Council Pereira.

Second by Council Giesta.

Mr.

Barton, I asked Council Gomes to please not have conversation with you during a meeting.

I'm asking you now, please to not do that.

Thank you.

No.

Motion made by Council Pereira.

Second by Councillor Giester, am I right?

Any further discussion on the item before us?

Roll call votes being requested by the chair.

Councilor Abrew.

Yes.

Yes, Council Abel, Council Baptiste.

Yes, Council Baptiste, Council Burgo.

Yes.

Yes, Council Burgh, Council Carney?

Yes.

Yes, Councilor Carney, Council Triquette.

Yes.

Yes, Council Chaquet.

Council Giesta?

Yes.

Yes, Council Gies to Councillor Morad.

No.

No, Councilmore and Council Oliver.

No.

No, Council Oliver, Council Pereira?

Yes.

Yes, Council Pereira.

Passes six to two.

Seven, I think one two.

One, two, three, four, five.

I guess.

Seven to two, right.

Passes seven to two.

Correct.

Okay.

You're all set.

We appreciate if you could get that information to us, please, prior to the meeting.

Thank you.

Item number five is a communication.

Mayor Mitchell to the City Council submitting a loan order.

Appropriating 21,865,465 for an accelerated repair projects at the Sergeant William Carney Memorial Academy, Hayden McFadden Elementary School, and Kasmir Pulaski Elementary School.

It was referred here on October 23rd, 2025.

5A is the order which was referred on the same day.

Colleagues, um chair is recommending that we take items five through 8A together.

Is there any objection?

Ask the Chair to read the remaining items, please.

Item number six is uh communication, Mayor Mitchell to the City Council submitting a loan order appropriating 7,911,603 for accelerated repair projects to the Elwyn G.

Campbell Elementary School, the L and R.

Hathaway Elementary School, and the Carlos Pachico Elementary School.

That was referred here October 23rd, 2025, with the 6A, the loan order of the same date.

Seven is a communication, Mayor Mitchell to the City Council submitting a loan order, appropriating 200,000 to pay the costs of a schematic design feasibility study as required by the Massachusetts School Building Authority with respect to the proposed accelerated repairs to the Trinity Day Academy.

That was referred here on October 23rd, 2025.

7A was a loan order which was referred on the same day.

Number 8 is a communication, Mayor Mitchell to the City Council submitting a loan order appropriating $5,703,804 to pay costs of an accelerated repair project at the Whaling City Junior Senior High School.

Referred here on November 15th, 2025.

And 8A is the loan order of the same day.

So 55A, 66A, 77A, and 88A are now before you.

Motion received and place on file made by Council Burgo.

Second by Council Baptist.

Any discussion on receiving and placing on file?

All those in favor say aye.

Aye.

Opposed the ayes have it.

Colleagues, we also have a presentation made by Council Burgo.

Second by Council Baptist.

Any discussion on receiving and placing on file.

All those in favor say aye.

Aye.

Opposed the ayes have it.

We have several members of the school uh department with us, along with Bob Ekstrom.

Who is leading?

Welcome, Superintendent O'Leary.

Um good evening, Madam Chair, members of the council is really good to be back here with you.

Really great to be back here with all of you.

Um to discuss and answer questions about this exciting project.

Um Mr.

Flynn and Dr.

Rabinovich can certainly get into the details.

Um just give some context.

There's a lot going on with MSBA right now, the Mass School Building Authority.

They had a very busy October 29th meeting where they agreed to extend this grant to us, and then there's a lot of discussion about reforming so that cities like New Bedford, etc.

We certainly collectively, we, this body and the school committee and the school department have done a lot of work over the past 10 years to really change the outlook of our schools.

And that's been very exciting.

And this project is another step in that.

And what's great about this project is we are getting finally to what the MSBA has long promised, which is an 80 percent reimbursement rate, as uh David and Barry will point out.

And then just before I came today, I reached out to the principals at the school's mention and I said, Hey, how's it going with the ceilings?

And of course, we have done a lot of work internal to the buildings, been able to hire great maintenance staff and custodial staff with our annual budgets, and then some of the other projects, but the roofs themselves have aged out.

And so they were my phone quickly got flooded with a lot of pictures of of um discolored tiles and some other things like that, which show um that we have passed, and that's why we have qualified for the ARP.

We have passed the useful life of those roofs.

And then, as we will see when we get into the details, those uh these projects will extend the useful life of those roofs for another 30 years at minimum, and that in turn will uh um stop any degradation to those buildings and in turn extend the overall life of those buildings as well.

So we're very excited about the prospect and the finally a full reimbursement.

I don't think we have had this level, this percentage reimbursement from MSBA in a long time.

So that's very welcome as well.

Um with that I'll invite to be clear, it's 80 percent, right?

Yeah, 80 percent is is the reimbursement.

Okay.

And that's the baseline reimbursement.

I don't want the general public to think you're getting all this money, that's all.

Yeah, it's a uh exactly it's 80 percent.

And and long the difficulty with MSBA for the longest time is they do advertise 80 percent.

So when you build uh Deval Congden or a Jacobs School, or you do ARP more generally, that's the headline.

But as we know, as we've discussed, there's ADA work, there's inelligibles, there's site work that gets that down in some cases to a 40 percent.

We've done a lot of advocacy, and it generally gets up to about a 60 percent now.

But because of the roof projects, our roofs alone, and because we have done with the COVID relief dollars and internally, we've done a lot of the other work internal to the buildings.

Um, we can just concentrate on the roofs, and there's no other trigger, so we get a straight 80 percent for that.

So it's very, very welcome.

Okay.

Thank you, Andrew.

And are you who's next?

Kick it over to the presentation uh to Barry and David.

Madam Chairperson, um, just to add to what Superintendent O'Leary has said, even if we do trigger things like ADA work, um, and that's why one of the schools is not on here, the GOM school, which is a roof that is in need, will come before you in a few months because we did trigger the 30 percent, and we have to do the ADA work, but this time we will get the 80 percent reimbursement on that ADA work, which we did not get when we did um Brooks, when we did Campbell ADA work, we did not get the reimbursement for that.

We will on this because MSBA has changed the regulations because of lobbying, um, as the superintendent has said.

So it is a true 80 percent reimbursement rate on these.

Um there are two things.

Um there are the roofs, there are seven roofs that we will show you and discuss, and the Trinity Day Academy, um, which is another ARP project that we are just looking for money to do the schematic design and to get the estimate.

So we're asking for 200,000 for the schematic design and the estimate.

That is a true 80 percent reimbursement on all of that investment.

So moving to the next slide.

Um we come to the Campbell Elementary School.

The Campbell Elementary School is a school that we have done a lot of work on.

We've done the ADA work, we've done new windows and doors, and the last piece of it that we need to do to bring this 60-year-old building so that it can last another 25 to 30 years is the roof, because the roof is 30 years old.

I'm sorry, I've got to take off the glasses so I can read my numbers.

So um the total cost, the total budget that has been estimated is at 3,504,690.

The estimated total maximum MSBA reimbursement is $2,680,763.

Now, from the that total cost, um $17,220 is necessary to make the building solar ready.

That is a new regulation that MSBA has done.

On any of the roofs that we put fix or change, we have to make them solar ready.

So in the future, if we decide to put the solar panels on it, it will take the extra weight and the electrical conduits are already there, ready to plug in.

So that work is part of this.

Okay.

Thank you very much.

The next one is the L and R.

Hathaway.

Now the Hathaway building is one that we did the windows and doors last summer, and we used ESSER money to do all the ADA work, including putting an elevator in that building.

So that building, a lot has been done.

Again, the only thing necessary is the roof.

In fact, that building never had a kitchen.

We put a kitchen in as well that the children now can go through and get their food.

Before we had a wheel carts into the gymnasium to feed them.

So general cost is 2,680,763.

MSBA reimbursement 1,705,955.

There is 462,145.

That's because on that roof we have to add additional steel.

So the extra weight when and if they put the solar panels, it can be taken care of.

No skylight costs, no accessibility costs, and the square footage, it's a smaller roof at 26,315.

Estimated cost to the city is $528,318.

Carlos Pachico.

Now, if you can remember from last year around this time, I was here and did a presentation about our capital plan for the future.

And the last elementary school that would be touched, which may not be for another 10 years, would be the Carlos Pachico elementary school.

So their roof is in need of repair.

Total cost $2,172,640.

Estimated total maximum MSBA reimbursement, $1,661,902.

Solar ready cost, $18,204 again for additional steel.

Type of roof material PVC, skylight cost zero.

Accessibility cost zero.

Square footage is $22,395.

Estimated cost of the city is $510,738.

Whaling City, which is what came before you at your last meeting.

Estimated total maximum reimbursement, $4,362,696.

Solar ready cost $19,680.

Type of roof, it's a modified what they call built-up roof.

And that is because of the bird habitat up on that building.

The seagulls think that it's their home.

And so we have to use a different kind of roofing material because of that.

Skylight that's that are there that look right into that those school $137,750.

Again, we get 80% reimbursement on that investment.

Accessibility costs $30,243.

Some of the things are grandfathered, but in that area of the school, we have to do some accessibility work.

Square footage, $60,685.

And the estimated cost of the city is $1,341,108.

Sergeant William Kearney Academy.

Estimated total maximum reimbursement, $5,178,835.

Solar ready cost is $888,017.

Again, because of the additional material that has to be added to that roof.

And it is a large roof.

Type of roof, a heavy fleece back TPO, again, another bird habitat.

No skylight cost, no accessibility cost because it's already been done.

Square footage, $65,605.

Estimated cost of the city is $1,772,827.

Hayden McFadden, another large school.

Estimated total or the cost, total cost $6,769,629.

Estimated total maximum reimbursement, $5,070,168.

Solar ready cost $697,533.

Type of roof is TPO tear-off.

Skylight cost $35,350.

Square footage, $58,446.

Estimated cost of the city is $1,699,461.

Now I want to say something about the Hayden McFadden School and the Kearney School roofs.

In discussions with DPI, it has been recommended that we do what's called a blue roof design, which means that water and heavy rainstorms don't immediately leave the roof and go right into the source system.

Because in those schools that are part of neighborhoods, that's where the water goes.

Again, this is an extremely large school.

Estimated reimbursement, $6,084,811.

Solar ready cost $650,000,687.

TPO recover.

It's a skylight cost.

This school, if you have ever been in it, over the center of the building where the library is, there is a huge skylight.

That is as old as that building is needs to be replaced.

So the cost for that skylight replacement is a million eight thousand eight hundred dollars.

And we will get 80 percent reimbursement on that expenditure.

I have already done the square footage, and the estimated cost of the city is 2,059,363.

The GOMS elementary again because of the ADA work.

Um the architect is coming back, and we are submitting that uh in February to MSBA with the estimate.

Um then I will come back to you after that occurs.

We will try to get it on a City Council agenda.

But we don't have it yet because we did trigger the 30 percent because the assessed value of the building, um, the amount of work we have done on that because we changed again using ESSER money, we changed the HVAC machinery in that building.

Um, and we put a new fire alarm in that building, as well as a number of years ago we did windows and doors in that building.

So, again, what is needed now is the roof, as was said earlier.

If you take care of the roof, that will help the rest of the building stay healthy.

We won't have stained ceiling tiles that can become mold and other unhealthy things.

And last, not least, um, to try to explain why some of these things seem so expensive.

It's because of the gold nails.

Um the new MSBA requirements to have roofs solar ready requires additional structural material, including electrical pathways, um, and the local stormwater permits requirement added cost to some of the projects.

Uh some of the outliers are on the next slide.

Uh Pulaski includes over a $1 million for the restoration of the large existing skylight that I've already talked about.

The um Pachico includes $387,000.

Accessibility upgrades.

Um, and the uh city's Department of Infrastructure allowing sections of the roof with solar to not be replaced with blue roofing will save us some money on this.

Okay, we're ready for questions.

As ready as we'll ever be.

Thank you, Barry.

David, do you wish to add anything?

No, thank you.

Okay.

All right.

All right.

Chair recognizes Councillor Pereira.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Barry, on all of uh thank you for the presentation tonight.

On all of the uh solar ready costs that you detailed out there, those are included in 80 percent reimbursement.

That is correct.

Okay.

So that 18,000, I'm just looking at Carlos Pacheco, it's the first one.

Oh, well, Carlos Pacico is the one I opened to, that $18,000 in change is included in that $2.1 total cost budget.

That is correct.

And 80% of that is included in the 510 city cost.

Okay.

On top of that, that is an um that's a requirement by MSBA, you said.

That is correct, yes.

All right.

Can you repeat that question, Council?

Yeah.

That is a requirement by MSBA, correct?

So when we met with them ready.

Two separate OPM firms and two separate designers, they broke it up into four roofs and four roofs.

And when we met with them asking if we felt that a particular roof that we weren't planning on putting solar on, did we have to design it and put the extra things in?

And we were told yes.

All of them have to be solar ready.

The MSBA told you that requirements.

That is correct.

Yeah, just specifically, um, it's on their website.

It's it's an advisory, their January board advisory that all future roof projects would be sold already.

I think it originally came from the legislature, some of that advocacy for moving forward, but it's it's a specific MSBA advisory from 2024.

Okay.

All right.

Chi-ching.

Um, I'm glad that we're all at 80 percent reimbursement.

I'm glad that we got ADA, 80 percent reimbursement too, which I think is good.

I'm glad we were able to utilize alternate funding, the uh SR funds and such to do those in the past, but moving forward, we can get 80 percent on that.

I still have concerns about Whaling City um junior senior high school.

I I'm not doubting the necessity for it.

I am concerned, I and I um I know I've said this quite a few times before you here.

I really like to see us move on from that building.

Um I'm sure you probably feel the same way, uh, but don't have a I don't have a good solution or an alternative.

Um I'm sure that there's something there, but uh that build moving on from that building, I think would be ideal.

Um but I I'm that's the one I'm concerned about.

I'll be I'll be frank about that one.

Um I don't know if you had any comments on that, uh Superintendent O'H.

Sure.

And and we we talk about that here regularly, and it's it's um an important conversation, absolutely.

Um so overall, just all these projects we we are going to improve and protect uh the learning environment for 35 students per year, which is of course the most important thing.

And then we're gonna protect, you mentioned some of the projects, we're gonna protect the work we've done over the past ten years as well, and we're literally going to put a roof over that and protect it.

So it all in all, this is very exciting.

But certainly the most interesting um discussion should be around the Whaling City, the 455 County Street, Prabhupada, whatever name you want to give it.

And so we have had talks, however, there's nothing specific um in the works about an alternative use for that building.

Um, you know, I have been talking to folks in housing, et cetera, who have experience with the Catholic schools, the Holy Family, and converting those into housing, and say, okay, what how would that play out?

Okay, and when would the clock start, right?

So um how long would it take if the clock was to start if that building was sold?

So if you were to play it out that the school committee, just like the school committee did with Kempton and Dunbar, et cetera, said we no longer have an educational use for this, or we are um declining our educational use for this, then it would default um to the council or to the administration uh to propose an additional use.

Then logistically, we've talked before we have about four or five operations.

We have now moved the food service operation to our excellent um facility on North Street.

So you would have to find a home for those operations, which would be considerable.

It is a great asset, centrally located, it works for families.

Um it's it's got it is a strong and stable building, except for the limitations about water penetration and the roof as well.

But most important are the students again, and we do have 200 students who are well served in Whaling City.

Um I give a lot of accolades to Whaling City, the data shows that.

However, um so if we're playing that out in terms of assembling tax credits, assembling a buyer, all of those kinds of things, that could take anywhere from five to seven years when that clock starts.

And I don't know if that clock is going to start um in one year or two years or three years.

So reasonably we're looking at a decade.

And a decade would be 200 students who, when we had this discussion back in 2022 about moving this forward, we have 200 students per annum, we have an upkeep need per annum, we have a risk.

Um the greatest risk we saw with the Hannigan school when it did collapse, the roof and ceiling collapse in 2008, and inherently roof collapses are are um unpredictable, right?

And so there's continual upkeep.

So overall, I do still think that given timelines like that, that this is still a smart investment.

You're getting your 80 percent, and then if you do want to play it out for an ultimate buyer, let's say a decade from now or two decades from now, we can anticipate a new use for that building at the top of County Street to have maintained the roof, to have acquired 80 percent in maintaining the roof, will have protected that building.

I think there are some buildings in the city.

I was talking to Josh again, and but when we when those moved forward for sale, that the roof um was compromised and that in turn compromised other things and domino effect, and that led to some kind of contaminant or other kind of things like that, it's a it's a really negative cycle.

So ultimately, if your interest is a commercial purchase or some kind of residential use for that building, um, or your our interest is every year to make sure that we have a stable home.

I think this project works in all those instances, and it's still a smart investment.

My last question on that topic is there any restrictions from the MSBA that this has to remain educational or anything like that, a school for X amount of periods so that they're getting their return.

Yeah, that's an excellent question, and that's what we worked with them on as well.

So this happens, right?

It happens in other um cities and towns, and there is there are a handful, I think Wellesley, well Wellesley can open and close their schools right and replace them.

So they said, Well, you know what, we're gonna close this elementary school, much younger than all of our younger schools, and they and they're going to apply to MSBA, and then the flaws in the MSBA formula are like, well, you're gonna get 40 percent for that.

I'm like, well, maybe you should let them pay for it themselves.

But I I digress.

But Wellesley is a great example.

So then you negotiate with the MSBA and you negotiate and say, well, we're use we have this project going on and we're moving the students here, and you negotiate essentially a payback of what they would have put in.

And that is by year.

So they would expect you to maintain, they expect the school to be around for 30 years.

Okay.

So if it's a 10-year period, they would calculate what they paid.

In this instance, the overall whaling project is about five million, um, six million, Barry, the whaling project.

We have a five point seven as well.

Thank you.

Um so you play that out over, then you it's a it's a very intuitive formula.

How much did they pay?

How long did you use it against those thirty years?

How much of you put into it, what would you have to pay back?

So if we were to close that building in five years, we would pay back uh three or three or so million, close it in ten years, we would pay back about half of that.

And again, there was also negotiations as well.

So that's the max, and then I did see in Wellesley that they did negotiate that down to a more reasonable figure as well.

So if we were to anticipate, and that's not inflation adjusted.

So if we are to anticipate, well, wait a second, if that building does change in five years or ten years, if that is a three million dollar figure, that's not inflation adjusted, and the budgets do grow by inflation, so that would be a much smaller percentage of the school department budget or something like that as well.

So it is a relatively low risk when counted against the opportunity that's in front of us.

So but the MSBA requirement would be 30-year educational use?

Correct.

Okay.

Interesting fact.

I had asked our facilities department, tell me how much we've spent over the last three years in roof repairs on these schools?

A hundred and ninety thousand dollars from our operating budget to repair these roofs.

Just to show you the need that is there.

Okay.

I would say we're the biggest purchaser of ceiling tiles in the state, most likely.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I yield it this time.

Thank you.

The chair recognizes Council Giesta.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Good evening, gentlemen.

Um, when you say solar ready, is it going to happen, or they just want the ceilings to be prepared?

Are we spending money for nothing?

That that's a great question as well.

Now, we all know that the I guess what you would call the renewables climate has changed over the past two years.

Um so when this happened, there was a lot of talk about um the IRA, the Inflation Recovery Act, and things like that, and we were able to get, and we we know they are guaranteed based on congressional action over the summer, the geothermal pumps and credits at DeVol, and that was a six million dollar credit to the city against the cost of that project.

So it was a it was um an affirmative and positive climate for renewable ideas.

So it made sense.

However, we did we have spoken with our our partners, undaunted K-12, who've helped helped us with that project, uh train who do a lot of energy efficiency as well.

And so there is room for solar within Massachusetts, there is room for net metering or the Massachusetts Smart Plan as well.

All of those are active.

There's a great article where Tyler Tyler Reese was quoted in uh the Commonwealth Beacon talking about that.

So there is very viable potential to place solar on some or even all of these buildings going forward, and so that avenue hasn't been closed off.

I think the tax credit piece, which was uh which was an extra boost, which is basically a cash advancement that we're getting for DeVault, that's closed off.

But actual true net metering, much like the ESCO plan we did in the past, that was a great plan that the City Council approved way back in like 2015 with RESCE, that kind of work, it there's room for that.

So to your question, it's viable and I don't want to overplay it, but it could potentially save a building 50 to 100,000 in utility costs, and that's per building per year going forward.

So I'm I'm right standing right here, I don't want to overplay it, but it's very viable in Massachusetts, and so it could be a true um way to even pay for this project going forward were we to get to that point.

No, I I agree that it it's a good thing.

I just don't want us to prepare a roof and then it not happen, right?

And the question would be would we get reimbursed for that money if it doesn't happen?

No.

So it has to be solar ready.

So um so but it it's it's not it doesn't necessarily anticipate solar, but it leaves room for that.

But we will be getting reimbursed for all of it.

It's all the work, and we're getting that 80 percent.

Okay.

Thank you.

And regarding Pulaski, the skylight cost over a million, correct?

Uh million eight.

That is correct.

Right.

Yes.

Um which again, I think it's great, but what would the cost be if you didn't have a skylight and just re you know, put a roof, a regular roof there?

Um that hasn't been calculated, um, but I know that some of the um large glass tiles that are in that are beginning to fail.

Um would you be replacing the whole skylight?

Yes.

Yeah.

And again, we get a reimbursement on it.

If later we determine, you know, we're not going to do the skylight, but we want to re-roof it.

Right.

Um, it probably they would not, MSBA would not let us back in because it wasn't part of the scope of work that we gave them at this point.

Okay.

Great.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Councillor.

Chair recognizes Council Oliver.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, gentlemen.

Um a few of my questions have been asked and answered, but um I'm going to go to the uh Pachico school, as we were talking about that being what, maybe 10 10 years down the road for possible replacement or considering replacement.

We're looking at um spending or improving by 2.1 million, almost 2.2 million.

Um would that be something that we would get into that situation where we're replacing the school and we're going to have to pay back?

Um so in that, I think what's interesting about the Pachico school and what we haven't done before, and maybe it's maybe Chance could answer this in terms of how the uh the schools on the peninsula suffer more than the schools that are more central.

But Pachico um is in better shape, but it's already it's already seeing that plastering and bubbling and all of that.

But where I'm going with this is what we've always assessed, even for Hannigan, um, certainly for Duvall, and we will be assessing for Ashley Swift, is can you reuse the building?

So there's a higher likelihood with Pacheco that we can reuse the building.

And that's actually part of the MSB A project.

So doing this now will maintain the envelope of the building, will protect the building.

Obviously, it will stop plaster um falling every summer that we have to work on, and and and it will be a big boost for the building.

But we're not net there's no we're not necessarily going to rebuild that building.

We could build around that building and so and then you or even expand it or build other features as well.

So it's still uh uh the smart investment.

But let's say we rebuilt.

Um then you would you would make that repayment calculation and it would come off.

Let's say we rebuild Pachico in ten years, it's uh hundred million dollar project.

That whatever the repayment it would work off, so it wouldn't be a transfer out, it would be a calculation and a negotiation with the MSBA at that time.

Okay.

Um for the Whaling City School, I think it was uh uh when it was in front of us before, I think the concerns, and correct me if I'm wrong if you remember differently, um I think there was concerns about flashing and pointing and things like that on that school.

Is that in this assessment?

No.

Um they um the MSBA does not cover pointing of the building.

They take that as a maintenance that the schools in the city need to do.

Okay.

And solar ready project solar ready was already asked.

Why we have to do it was already asked.

Um the blue roof, is that something that's required?

Or is that a precaution that we're taking because of their location within the city?

So any kind of construction um project that we have, we have to get building permits.

And one of the important ones is wastewater.

Um we've come, if you go by the site where we're building the new Daval, and you see some of these huge holes that they're putting in water retention systems, because we need to find places to hold the water so it isn't all going in to the system.

So it's an EPA thing that has come down, and DPI has they're the people that have to enforce it.

So on these particular schools, because of their locations, yes.

But they have made it a little bit easier for us by allowing us to say if we're going to do 20 percent solar ready here, then I don't have to do blue roof there.

So I'm not doubling up on the costs as far as putting in more steel where it may not be needed.

And are we do we have when we're taking those blue roofs into consideration and the and the neighborhoods?

Are we do we have estimates of what those roofs currently contribute to the waterway to the sewer system?

The DPI?

Um there are engineering numbers.

I don't have them by memory, um, but I know the engineers had to give DPIs some numbers and drawings so they can calculate the size of the drains and so forth.

And um things like uh um projects like down the South End of Duvall School with the the tanks and the ground and stuff like that, like I I come to come to think of like the Hayden McFadden school, they have that large field there.

Is would that be covered with something like this if we did went that route versus the blue, or is it is the blue roof cheaper than doing something like that, that type of water mitigation?

Um the field um we have been um it's a green space, and there are other requirements within the city that has prevented us from using that green space.

Okay.

Um, whether or not at some point they'd want to do a water retention system there, um, I'm not sure.

I don't think so.

Um I think the the blue roof is a cheaper way to go than a water retention system, which is very um labor intensive and material intensive.

Okay.

And that was it.

That's all I have right now.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Anyone else on there first?

So from the chair, I have a couple as well.

Um with regard to Golm School, which will be coming next year, is it anticipated that that will be 80 percent reimbursable as well?

Absolutely.

Okay.

And uh Council Giesta asked you the question about the skylight at Pulaski, I'm gonna ask it again as well.

So I understand you've submitted your proposal now already, and you're beyond the point of going backwards.

But we I mean, when you were looking at that, did you actually look at whether it would be cheaper to remove it than to replace it?

Because obviously you're gonna have to replace it again somewhere down the road.

I think part of the consideration was that that where it is, that that would then be an internal huge class space without any outside windows at all.

Um of the things they look for when the designing buildings is natural light, so for learning potential.

Awful expensive natural light, Barry.

But okay.

I I you know it is what it is.

You have answered my question, but um regarding the solar costs, I'm I'm really shaking my head.

As you know, the surrounding communities denied the old colony uh school yesterday with almost an overwhelming no.

But when you were reading articles about that, I think it's a 280 million dollar project, right?

17 million of it was solar and green uh types of stuff demanded or regulated by uh the state legislators and our governor.

Um I mean, we're just we're killing people with costs doing this stuff.

We're killing residents.

I'm pontificating here, we're killing residents with delivery charges on bills.

I mean, it's crazy.

It's absolutely crazy.

So it's a hard stop.

All of these projects, in order for them to be re reimbursable, have to have solar ready, correct?

It's a hard stop.

There's no negotiation.

Correct.

Yeah, that's that that was in the regulation for those they'll accept and in their board rec.

I would say that you know there's a hierarchy of renewable projects, some of which are very aspirational, as you said, and some of which are uh pie in the sky and all of this.

I do think we the city has great experience and great progress and and great progress in lowering utility, the municipal utility costs uh with the net metering or participation in a smart plan.

And from what I have seen, um that that could be where we participate here.

So there are uh potential benefits from the solar piece, but to your main question, um it's a requirement of MSBA if we want their 80 percent.

Okay, so um I'm I'm hoping you go that route now because you're gonna have the ability and go get that money.

It isn't my experience, and Council Gomes isn't here.

Um maybe Council Carney was here then.

It isn't my experience that what we did in the energy um updates in the city ten years ago actually came to the bottom line.

It didn't.

I mean, our costs on our budget side are still as high as they ever were.

So go do that and you know prove the city wrong that you can actually reimburse it yourself for the solar credits that you're gonna get.

Yeah, go do that.

Um I'd like to see you do that.

So I'm gonna follow up on counselor Pereira's comments about whaling city.

Um I hear you, Andrew, and what you're saying about it better do it now because it adds to the long-term value.

I I get all that, but um we've now done a second school since we have began to have this conversation about decreasing the school department's footprint, less buildings for you to have to maintain.

Um, you know, you you're gonna have the same number of team members, I know that, but the costs for overhead, the cost for operating the buildings, et cetera.

I I just don't see any movement that way.

And I'm I'm out the door in 48 days, but you know, I really would like to stay.

I'd really like to see us continue pushing to remove ourselves out of that building.

As we, you know, we're building uh school down the south, then we had a lot of room there.

I didn't see us move anything from County Street there.

I don't know what's going on on Ashley Swift.

I know those bids have come in.

I don't know if you know there's a design there to move some of what's in uh the county street building there.

I really would like to see you do that.

In the long run, I think it makes a lot of sense to do that.

And you know, eventually maybe you can build yourself a brand new building somewhere with the cost savings of that.

But I don't know.

It's just me.

You don't have to answer me, because like I said, I'm out of here in a few days.

So I have a question for Bob, but uh for you, I want to ask any of you that answers.

If I do the 80 percent on all the projects, the the maximum amount that the city could be on the hook for is 7 million, 12174.

Is that correct?

Is that what you're calculating?

Yes.

So that's the 20 percent of the total projects, including the Wheeling City.

Yeah.

Yep.

Okay.

So 7 million, 121,774.

I see a couple people with uh I'm sorry.

I I know that you didn't need an answer for this.

But if, for instance, when we begin designing Ashley Swift, if we put on a wing, let's say for administration, then we would not get any reimbursement for that wing.

They will not reimburse MSBA will not reimburse for any administration only sections of buildings.

Yeah.

Okay, so but they would if you move the classrooms from whaling city there, correct?

Yes.

Okay, and that's what I'm saying.

I mean, I know it's gonna take you you made a big chunk by moving the central kitchen.

Good.

Um and you know, we didn't have to really pay for that.

So good.

But you know, I I really would like to see that.

And no, I don't need an answer, because like I said, I'm out of here.

But a couple people have seconds.

I see their hands.

I know you have a first, and then I will ask Bob a question about the debt addition to the city.

Uh Chair recognize Council Bergowin is first.

Uh thank you.

Sorry.

Um so I just had a quick well, first and foremost.

Well, I guess the first one I want to address is the number that you just said about 7.1 million.

7 million 12174.

I I hope that's right.

Yeah.

Yeah.

So I I know we keep talking about the 80 percent number, but um I know that it's technically it's really up to 80 percent is really what we should be saying.

It's eighty percent of reimbursable expenses eligible.

Which is why I like to use the term up to, because it doesn't mean that you're guaranteed the 80 percent, it's up to an eligible amount.

That is correct.

But we're just gonna there are I can't think of many things that are not part of that, where when we were doing a building and we did things like the ADA things, then those weren't reimbursable.

So then your reimbursement comes down.

Okay.

Because when I'm adding up the estimated total cost, the city uh numbers, it's coming out to 8.7 million.

All right.

I I didn't stand here and add, I thought.

No, I know.

I'm just saying but then the other concern I had was the numbers for half the way school.

The number is off by about $446,000.

I don't know if we can get that updated.

If I'm combining the cost for what the reimbursement will be and the estimate for the city, it should be $2.2 million, but it's showing the total cost for the budget is $2.6 million.

So that may be that this correction didn't make it into this thing.

Because I transposed the question.

I was just going to say because with that figure, it looks like the reimbursement is off significantly.

And I I had corrected that, but evidently it didn't make it into the remote.

That's okay.

Yeah.

So I just want to make sure that we make sure that's uh correct because otherwise, you're right.

All the other schools are perfectly on par.

It's looking uh all the numbers add up except for half the way school.

So I just wanted to make sure.

That was one that I took the number from the wrong place.

Okay.

All right.

That's the only questions that I had, and it's uh looking like we're somewhere hovering around the 76 uh percent area for these eligible um reimbursements.

But that that's all I want to clarify those numbers.

Okay.

Thank you.

Barry, would you send to the council office tomorrow just that revised sheet?

That half that's so we have it for the record.

Yeah, thank you.

And council, what did you say you thought the number was?

I just redid my number.

Eight uh eight million seven hundred thirty.

I'm not even close to that.

So but maybe you can uh I bet that two match.

You get the eight million, too?

Eight seven thirty-five seven forty-two.

21865,465, 7 million, 911, 603, 5 million, 703, 804, and 200,000, correct?

That totals 35 million, six oh eight to eight seven two?

Oh, I'm not including uh the Trinity Day.

I'm just uh doing the estimates from uh Hathaway, Campbell, Pacheco, Whaling City, Carney, McFadden.

That doesn't make any sense, Counselor, because my number is lower than yours.

I know, that's why I'm confused.

If if you look at the estimated cost of the city, uh that column in the in each school bracket, that's what I added up.

Yeah, I just did the loan orders.

Oh, maybe something doesn't add.

Okay.

Okay.

Well, um loan orders may not because maybe the um whaling city wasn't on the first group that came.

There have been three three separate loan orders.

So you had one for four roofs, one for three, um, one for three, one for three, and one for one.

David, do you think you could use your phone, your calculator and get the total number just so we know what the total number is so that we can do the 80 percent?

Thank you.

Is that jumping?

You think that's exactly what it is?

All right.

He's gonna work on that.

Yep, perfect.

Council Burgo, you have any other questions?

All right, Chair recognizes Council Oliver in a second.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I have one question.

I assume that some of these roofs, or most of these roofs, have HVAC units or other things that are on the roofs that are most likely going to be removed, moved, um, tampered, not tampered with, but touched.

Um is there contingency within these estimates that if some of these things need to be replaced, repaired, um, or whatever.

So at uh GOMS and at Pulaski, we have recently changed all the HBAC units on the roofs.

So those have already been done.

But yes, we've taken in consideration, taking them off, putting them back, putting in the curbs around them.

Um ventilation fans that are found not to work will be replaced.

Okay.

All right.

I just didn't want to we start doing these roofs, and then it's like, oh, there's seven units that now need to be replaced, and we don't have a contingency for that.

So thank you.

That's all, Madam Chair.

Thank you.

Council Pereira, you wanted a second?

No, ma'am.

You did not.

Okay.

All right.

Anyone else on a first or a second?

All right.

So Bob, while Barry's grabbing the um, I'm sorry, why David's grabbing the final number?

Could you just take the podium for a minute?

So whether the number is seven million or eight million, it's gonna be debt to the city.

Um it's been a while since we asked you this conversation about what what our appetite is for that kind of number.

We know that a CPA showed up.

I'm sorry, a CIP showed up uh a month ago or so for 17 million.

That's been sent back.

Hopefully it will come back at a more reasonable number.

Um we're working on that now.

Yeah, I know you are.

Do we have the capacity to take $8 million in in debt here?

You have to bond for the whole amount, correct?

Yeah.

Well, we're doing a loan order for the entire amount.

We can only bond for we do have the availability to go for bond anticipation notes, which we would then repay with proceeds from the MSBA grants.

So we would only go for permanent financing for the 2020.

Right.

And we have the capacity.

So the capacity legally is certainly there.

We have a lot of debt that's outside the limits, and so our capacity within the limits is plentiful.

It becomes a matter of debt service.

Each year we're losing, we're having about roughly on average about 10 million dollars of of outstanding bonds drop off.

So you could argue that we have we have the capacity to take out about 10 million and keeping our debt the same.

You know, the outstanding debt that's that's that uh the city owes the debt service each year is about 10 million dollars.

Um the school portion, I was trying to find this out, but I didn't have enough time.

The school portion of that, um we bear it on the city side, and it's not uh covered under net school spending.

That was um uh that was what I was trying to find, but uh it's a little bit, I believe it's a little less than half of that.

I could certainly do that, yes.

So the debt service is ten million a year at this point.

On the general funds side, which includes school, but not the enterprise funds.

Right.

And this would add seven or eight.

It won't add it right away.

Won't add it right away, no.

We would um probably go for bond anticipation notes, which have very low interest and turn it into permanent financing once the MSBA does settles, if you will.

Okay.

Uh so it could be a couple we can only go off of bond anticipation notes for two years.

So we we will time it so that we don't run out of time before we have to uh go to permanent financing.

Um I mean the appealing thing here, obviously there anything we can leverage is always great.

The airport is our biggest source, right?

We have nine ninety-five to ninety-seven point five percent of our airport approved projects are paid by the FAA or the Mass Dot.

This is an 80 percent.

So this is one of those highly leveraged types of debts that's uh sort of hard to say no to from my perspective.

I agree, but we we need to be sure we have the capacity to handle it.

Yeah.

So okay.

Thank you.

Anyone else for Bob?

Okay.

David, I know I'll put you on the spot.

Yeah.

Do you have the number now?

I guess I was trying to compare.

Were you just taking the loan orders times 20 percent to figure out the net amount?

I did the quick way, but obviously it was pointed out to me that they I should do it by the bottom line there, yeah.

Right.

So if you're back into it the other way, including all seven buildings, I come up with 8 million, 735, 742.

8 million 735.

742.

Is that close?

That is the exact number I have.

Uh that is correct.

But the way you did it is also accurate.

Uh you're doing it by 70 percent.

But again, as we talked about, the projects are not all exactly 80 percent reimbursable.

So you're doing it by if the all of it is exactly 80 percent reimbursable, but the 8.7, the 8 million seven hundred and thirty-five thousand seven hundred forty-two number is based on the individual projects and the actual percentages.

So, for example, Campbell school is about seventy-six percent reimbursable, Hathaway based on my reconfiguration of what I think the actual number is will be seventy-six percent.

Pacheco 76, Whaling City 76, and then Carney about 74 percent.

Hey, McFadden 75, and then Pulaski, 75 percent.

Yeah.

So what I did, which uh with my Eureka moment was I took that whole number that you did and then did like a 0.75 instead of 0.80, and it was closer to your number.

Yeah.

But yeah.

So okay.

So we have we have a basic number, um, 8 million seven thirty-five seven forty-two, um, and at least we know what the possibility could be if if it goes all as planned.

And keep in mind that you know the architects intentionally estimate high, and as Barry alluded to, certainly hopeful that the actual bids would come in lower than this.

Right.

But we never want to end up on the other side of it where we give you one figure and they come in higher.

We agree.

We want you to save as much money as you possibly can, and just replace those gold meals with lead or something, okay.

Excuse me.

I was just I was just noting that the great thing here is this will be one of the larger roof projects across the state that we're doing all of these at once.

So the likelihood of getting one or two bidders, economies of scale will bring that figure down again, I'm confident.

Yeah, but it's just way too expensive, Andrew, for a roof.

Um I remember not too long ago beating poor Kenny Blanchett up because he wanted to put a roof on a on a uh fire station that was gonna cost 200,000.

It's a bargain today.

thing here is this will be one of the larger roof projects um across the state that we're doing all of these at once so the likelihood of getting one or two bidders economies of scale will bring that figure down again I'm confident yeah but it's just way too expensive andrew for a roof I remember not too long ago beating poor Kenny Blanchett up because he wanted to put a roof on a on a uh fire station it was going to cost 200 thousand dollars it's a bargain today so all right anybody else on any of these issues thank you all of you for being here Bob thank you as well all right colleagues your pleasure on items five through eight please motion to refer out to the full city council second items five a five through eight a for um for full approval made by council burgo second by council baptiste any further discussion on the items before us roll call vote please on referral to the full city council for approval council abroad yes counselor counselor baptiste yep yes counselor baptiste council burgo yes yes council burgo counselor carney yes yes counselor carney council church yes yes council chickett council giesta yes yes counselor giesta council morad yes yes council more counsel oliver yes yes council all over council per passes nine two zero item passes items pass nine to zero madam chair thank you again motion to wave item uh motion to wave the reading of items nine through ten a and refer out to the full city council for no further action made by councillor burgo second by council baptiste any discussion on taking no further action and referring out all those in favor say aye aye opposed the ayes have it motion to adjourn motion to adjourn made by all of you second by everybody else any discussion on adjournment seeing none all those in favor say aye aye opposed opposed today we are adjourned today at 901 p.m.

thank you