Also, Metal Sand Sand Sto Good afternoon, and welcome to Pittsburgh City Council's Cable Cast Post Agenda on Pittsburgh's Noise Ordinance as it relates to restaurants and bars for May twenty-eighth, twenty twenty-six.

And for the record, we're joined in person today by Councilperson Bob Charlin and online by Councilwoman Deb Gross and Councilman Bobby Wilson, and I'm sure we'll see other council members join shortly.

However, a few years ago, Allegheny County and Philadelphia were specifically prohibited by the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania from having any sound above zero decibels emanating from these types of properties.

Unlike Allegheny County in Philadelphia, every other county in the Commonwealth enjoys a 75 decibel-level exception that recognizes the practical realities of running a venue.

The result here at home is a complaint-driven anonymous enforcement process that has left operators facing repeat citations, mounting legal costs, and in some cases the decision to give up live programming altogether.

While residents wait months for resolution and see little improvement on the ground.

So the bottom line is the current framework is not serving our operators, it's not serving our neighbors, and it's not serving the city.

Today's conversation is really just about understanding the problem in concrete terms from the people living it and learning from state officials and law enforcement leaders joining us today who administer the current system, charting a responsible path toward local framework that is fair, predictable, and worthy of the communities that it serves.

And so I am so thrilled to welcome our guests today.

We're going to take this in two different panel discussions because we have a lot of invited guests and a lot of experts in their field joining us today.

So on our first panel panel, I'm I'm happy to welcome our Pittsburgh Bureau of Police Chief Jason Lando.

We have Lynn Davies, the Executive Director of the Liquor Control Committee in the Pennsylvania House.

We have State Representative Lindsay Powell, and we have Sergeant Andrew Robinson.

And then we will start, and we have Alison Harndon, our nighttime economy manager.

So we'll start with this panel and then move to our next panel, which is a little bit more of the expertise from the operators of and managers and owners of our entertainment industries and our small businesses.

So with that, I would love to actually we can just move right down the line if that's easiest.

Each person can introduce themselves.

If you have introductory remarks prepared, that's fine.

I'm gonna ask us to keep it under five minutes just for the sake of time.

And if you if you if you don't, that's fine.

You can just introduce yourself with your name and your title and experience in this in this on this topic.

Sergeant Andrew Robinson, Zen 3 Police.

Uh worked Southside Entertainment Patrol for two years.

Thank you.

Jason Lando recently returned to Pittsburgh as the chief of police previously with the department for 21 years and was gone for the past five years, so still getting uh caught up on some of the issues and concerns, and I thank Sergeant Robinson for uh for helping out with that today.

See Representative Lindsay Powell, thank you so much, Councilperson, for hosting uh this post agenda.

This has been something that's been incredibly important to our district.

I have the honor of representing the 21st district, which includes Lawrenceville, the strip district, Schaler, Mobile Etna, Reserve Township, and parts of the north side, and we have some wonderful vibrant parts of the city that have a density of bars and restaurants that are nestled in our neighborhoods, and so we've really struggled with the challenge of balancing, making sure that we have habitable neighborhoods where people can put their babies to bed nice and easy on a Sunday night, but also we have vibrant bars and restaurants that people want to patron.

So thank you for taking up this important issue and excited to delve a little deeper into this challenging uh topic.

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Lynn Banka Davies.

I'm the executive director of the Pennsylvania House of Representatives Liquor Control Committee.

Um, and thank you for inviting me, and hopefully I can help provide a little insight into how we got here with regards to the laws and legislation and the complexity of the liquor code.

Thank you.

Hello, thank you for having us here today, all of us.

I'm Alison Harndon, uh nighttime economy manager for the city of Pittsburgh.

Um we are located, the Office of Nighttime Economy is two people located in the public safety department, and we're responsible for um being a liaison for food, beverage, entertainment businesses and the communities where they operate.

So this is an important um subject for us to dive into because we see a lot of um uh stress on both sides with residents and businesses.

Um our role is to help create a sociable city and one that can have peaceful coexistence with residents and businesses, but also be equitable.

And um, the current I I want to be clear that I don't think that people are not doing their job.

It's just they're operating in a structure that has a lot of flaws.

And um, I think that we can we can have what we we're looking for as we you know figure out where the the bugs are and and find a path forward.

Thanks.

Thank you all so much.

And so we were covertly um measuring the decibel levels of this opening conversation.

Um not really covertly.

The the the sound the sound noise meter was here, and just to give a sense of what 75 decibel levels is right now.

We're at about 69, 6869.

75 is not that much louder than we're what we're currently talking, the levels we're currently having a regular conversation.

Yes, there's some amplification here, but um uh just wanted to sort of level set what 75 decibels sounds like to the average ear close up.

All right.

So we'll start in with some questions.

I do want to, since we don't have like formal presentations, I would normally ask for presentation and then open up to my um colleagues.

I'm gonna start the conversation off if that's okay with a few questions for each guest here, um, open it up to my council colleagues for some generative conversation and questions, and then we'll move to panel number two as well.

So um we'll start with um state rep Powell.

From your conversations with operators and businesses, have noise complaints filed with the Bureau of Liquor Control Enforcement increased since the general assembly proved the recent changes to the noise provisions.

Do you know, or any if uh if Lynn, if you're able to answer that as well.

Um I don't actually I do have some um data that I received from the Bureau of Liquor Control Enforcement.

Um it's been pretty consistent, um approximately 10 noise citations yearly.

Um some of those are actually outside the city of of Pittsburgh, um, but no, it doesn't.

And just to clarify, the when the law changed, the law previously for everybody was always that you could not hear off the license premise.

So the change gave that latitude to other um counties that it set the decibel range.

There was no decibel range previously, it was just if you were standing outside a licensed prevalent, even if you were like on the street, literally right outside the door, that's how that's how it always was governed, and then that change happened in 2022.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So um I'm wondering if anyone can speak to what the process looks like when a and we'll ask this question to the panel number two as well.

When a liquor control enforcement officer responds to a noise complaint against a bar or music venue, what criteria are they using in determining the appropriate response?

Whether that's a warning, citation, further escalation, what does it look like?

What does it feel like?

I I can respond to that.

Um I mean, while I'm not liquor control enforcement, when they do everything typically is complaint driven.

So they're gonna receive a complaint, whether it's by email or or phone, um, they don't immediately go out.

This is typically um something that happens over the course of several days.

They'll ask for information from the individual who calls asking what time of day are they hearing the um the noise?

What's the day of the week?

Are there is it during certain events?

And then they will open an investigation, which will typically remain open for approximately 30 days, um, and they'll frequent the establishment during those times that they anticipate that there would be a violation, and then they'll document.

Um as far as the discretion in warnings and citations, I really couldn't answer that.

Um there's nothing obviously in statute that dictates that, but um, once they if they issue a citation, then the licensee would obviously get a notice of violation.

The notice of violation then um goes to the ALJ to be adjudicated, and then from there it goes to um after adjudication, the LCB is notified.

And I would just say Oh, oh I would just just say that the you know the business has the opportunity to appeal that as well, and that can extend the time that this goes on.

Um, and not just uh and the cost of that to the legal cost, and that um the scheduling of these things uh get kind of backed up, and so it it can be months and even years before these issues are resolved.

And I was just gonna add that um the burden sometimes on these small businesses as well.

So there could be legal um fees, legal costs associated um with them either retaining a lawyer trying to adjudicate the um complaints against them.

They do span months oftentimes for some folks uh maybe even more than that, and so uh these complaints don't live in a vacuum.

Um they do have pretty significant costs as some of these small businesses that are already um working on pretty thin margins.

Um just turning to our our place, so Chief Lando and Sergeant Robinson, whoever would like to take this.

What are the current policies and procedures for governing how the our bureau responds to noise complaints, particularly with um those involving licensed establishments?

I'll start with you know there's a difference between the residential complaints and the business complaints.

So we have the ability to take enforcement action, if there's loud noise coming from a residential uh area, but as it relates to bars and restaurants and and other businesses, uh we do not and Sergeant Robinson's pretty much our expert in the Southside Flats with you know some of the the bars and the businesses down there, and so I'll let him speak to um how that how those complaints would be addressed, but there is a difference between the residential and the businesses.

So whenever there's music coming from a licensed establishment and in the Southside Flats area on Carson Street, if it's not too loud and it's manageable, we kind of let it go.

But if there is a if I can hear it a half a block away, then we have to address that with the bar owners uh or the management and tell them, hey, you gotta turn the music down a little bit, I can hear it down the street.

If I can hear it down the street, that means the neighbors uh on the other side of you in either direction can hear it as well.

So we have to be good neighbors to each other and make sure that you're not disturbing the peace of uh residential people.

And then I'll I guess I'll pose this to you and to um to Alison.

Are there practices that you found on the south side or sort of throughout the city that have allowed bars and music venues to work effectively with neighbors to mitigate these concerns while preserving their ability to operate any success stories you found?

It it's difficult because I think the system allows it to go on for so long that people uh there it it's really it continues to fester between the parties, and so there isn't a real desire to come together and work things out because you know uh for the from the residents perspective, they are getting not getting relief.

And I think I think what's really confusing is maybe even to our entire group here is that two businesses could be operating almost exactly the same, having music, have being a restaurant, but the one that has a liquor license, they could be right next to each other.

The one that has a liquor license is enforced by the state, and the standard is zero.

The decibel is zero.

You cannot hear you're not allowed to have any noise amplified noise heard at the property line.

The one that doesn't have a liquor license, then the city can go inside them for under our our city code.

So it's it's really confusing to residents who don't know the difference.

You know, they may not even go to those restaurants to know whether they have a liquor license.

So they're calling in and thinking that it is the city's um job to do this.

Whereas hands are tied, it's it's in the state hands.

Okay.

Well, I want to uh I give the opportunity for my colleagues to um ask questions, share their concerns, share their observations from their own experiences in their neighborhoods, and we can we can round it out uh after that.

But in person, we have councilperson Bob Charland who also represents the South Side and has experience there among other many other places throughout your district.

So I'll turn it over to you, councilperson.

Yeah.

Uh well, thank you for calling us today.

Um I want to start off uh by asking Allison, you're kind of you know, you're an expert in this field, you know, very much tied in with a national network of of folks that really know this well.

Who do you think is doing sound like what other municipalities be it in Pennsylvania or or beyond Pennsylvania that are doing this well?

Well, I think everybody has pieces of it that are well, but I think something to think about is that we when we get to enforcement, we're already kind of losing.

You know, we should be doing a lot more work up front.

How do we?

I mean, that's sort of what our office tries to do, um, is to, I mean, one thing we do on Mondays is look at all the 311 complaints to see like how what is rising to the top, not just the businesses, but we're looking for you know, we're two people for the whole city, so we're looking for patterns that we can you know um intercept and and maybe do an intervention somehow, you know, create some sort of tool that might um help the business and the residents do a better job.

So in terms of who's doing a good job, I think there's there's before you get to enforcement, there's preventing, there's um education, pre-planning.

Like we're doing with the comp plan, maybe some of that could feed into it.

Um there's mitigation opportunities like in um in uh New Orleans, they have um a program that they're doing, which is working with the university to come up with um and to work a university that has an audio engineering program, and they have grants that go to the businesses to work with them and get to kind of the actual business is a problem.

The building itself, you know, we have a lot of old properties here, so what can we do to prevent that?

That's another strategy.

Um in New York, when things get really bad, um, they have and this happened, they created this program during COVID.

Um, it's called MEND, it's mediating entertainment neighborhood disputes.

And so it's a requirement that if you're you know, if you're gonna go to this uh level of trying to shut down a business, this has to go through a mediation first.

But I think you know, part of it too is where we are placing enforcement of sound.

I mean, enforcement of sound is not a crime, it's not a danger to our safety, and it shouldn't be necessarily in my opinion, and and this is what other cities and states think too, not necessarily in the hands of police.

Um, so a lot of cities have um a code enforcement unit, and they're they go out in nights and weekends or um and they're proactive.

It doesn't have to just be sound in entertainment districts, you know.

This is we have a lot of quality of life codes that could be enforced not just nine to five, but I mean that's a part of our office is finding equity in night and not just night life.

So um part of that is people deserve to have the same equal um response from the city.

Um in Seattle, um, oh so a lot of cities have entertainment permits and which allows them to tie uh any sort of response to um to that permit so that it gives the city more authority, right, to provide these kind of tools, like um, and um the code enforcement units are a lot of there's you know, and um national organizations and state organizations that then provide training in um audio and and sound management.

I mean, I've delved into this a lot.

Like, sound has like a wacky science, you know.

Um, we were getting complaints some time ago, I think it was before COVID from stage AE all the way in Crafton.

And so it was like, how does this happen?

And it's like, well, first of all, sound water carries sound waves, and so that was doing it.

It can, and when it hits a uh mountain, it can go up.

It will actually separate and come back together over the mountain, the sound waves.

So this is like just you know, we need to know better about how we help our businesses, you know, be um uh sound not soundproof, but at least help them maintain the sound.

Um San Francisco has an entertainment commission, and they meet with people that want to have uh amplified sound, recognizing that every business and their building is different, they go in and help set settings for the sound inside the building to know that like this is it, you know, if you go past this, you're going to go past the decibel reading outside the business.

So there are a lot of opportunities.

There's not like one city that you know is best at it, but I think there's a lot of people that have good pieces.

That's helpful.

Um, so I guess I don't really know maybe this is a better question for the next panel.

Um, but I just kind of want to know from from your perspective, because we we really don't do much sound enforcement in the city, um, we really don't do it well, and I know that like it's really challenging for us to get liquor control enforcement to come around at all.

It doesn't happen very often.

Um I kind of want to know like what uh what do we think is lost by not having good policies around this?

What what do we think we're we're losing, you know, between businesses and and our cultural centers, what is it that that we lose?

Well, I do hear from businesses that they have decided to remove programming.

Um so that that's concerning.

You know, when we hear from Visit Pittsburgh, why don't we have more music venues?

I mean, they do surveys of visitors and they're like, Well, why don't you have more music downtown?

I I do believe there's a you know a reticent by by businesses to have any sort of entertainment, and we're not just talking music, we're talking, you know, trivia nights, um, drag shows, um, even uh the TV showing the Steelers game can be in violation of the liquor license, but who's calling and complaining that the Steelers game on then the bar?

So then it becomes like we are actually not equitably enforcing if we're choosing what music, what type of entertainment we're enforcing against.

So that and because that's in complaint driven and in the hands of the state, we don't have as much opportunity to really solve our own problems and make sure that we're providing great spaces for people to nurture their talent and become, you know, a national music act, you know, that um these spaces not have not having those spaces to provide that creative expression is a great loss to the community.

And when we started talking to businesses and resident groups and communities about this, I actually was quite surprised, and they were surprised, they didn't know a lot of this.

They didn't know that this was we didn't have control over that locally, and so they and they were very um they they were worried about what type of complaints are coming in, and a lot of the the complaints were geared towards music that might have heavy bass, which you might assume because that kind of carries, but then the type of music that have heavy bass are rap and hip hop and different types of music with heavy bass that tend to be used by different cultures, and so we can possibly be, you know, uh in some situation there where we're in trouble with creative expression, you know, and and limiting that.

And so I I think it's a very on the surface, it seems like, oh, just turn it down, right?

But when you dig in deeper, there's a really a lot of um, I don't want to say dangerous, um, just you know, risky territory to step into.

And and um I think what I hear from the community from the businesses from the residents is that they want something that is fair, and they they want those um establishments in their community.

Yeah.

If I could add to um two things, one a lot of these businesses um in these bars are already, as I said, working on very thin margins, and I can tell you anecdotally, there are several bars um and establishments in our district that are really considering if they can keep their doors open, largely because a lot of folks aren't drinking as much as they used to, and so a lot of our places need to rely on different um, as Alison said, different types of entertainment.

So you can't rely on just people enjoying a few beers and making your numbers, but you might need to add trivia and bingo and other things like that, and without the ability to do that, folks are really struggling to figure out how to keep their their doors open.

And I think second, there's something to be said about third spaces as well, where a lot of these establishments are places where people come together, um, where there are community events that are often free to the public, um, and they use uh their ability to sell alcohol, sell beer, what have you, as a way to supplement that revenue, and so without the ability to gather, especially for communities that are vulnerable that may not have these types of spaces regularly, we're not just losing cultural assets, but we're losing um, I think really trusted, really uh for some communities, sacred spaces in our our neighborhoods.

And I the last question I have is uh for public safety here.

Um, so we again we don't do much enforcement of this right now.

Um, do we have the capacity for the police to uh you know, enforce use the decimal meters and actually enforce do we have that capacity with our police force?

So I'll I'll just say that you know I I want to make sure that we're you know good good partners.

Um but right now, you know, we're in a staffing situation, it's no secret where we're trying to figure out um things to maybe offload is the wrong term, but for instance, like leaning on community partners to do our crisis response and you know what what are police best suited for and most needed for when we look at the priorities and and for us to take this on, um would be a significant it would be a significant lift and a significant burden if you look at uh the sergeant his his team downtown on the south side, I'm excuse, excuse me, down on the south side on the weekends, they are just going from call to call and incident to incident, and to put this burden on them, um it it would be a lot, and it would probably require additional manpower, and that's just not manpower that we have right now.

And I think if we were in a different place staffing-wise, you know, if this was back when I started and we had 1100 police officers, we would potentially be having a different conversation.

But right now we have just under 800, and I just don't know how to add that to their plate.

And it would uh the officers would have to do additional training with this as well.

Um, holding up this decimal reader, you have to be able to know how to use it.

If we're out on Carson Street and standing across from a bar, am I gonna be able to get an accurate reading?

Am I gonna know that's an accurate reading without having the proper training?

And that proper training will take officers off the street for a week or two, have them go through courses, have them go through live drills.

So that would that would put an additional stress on the officer.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you very much.

And I do want to recognize that you had uh you councilman had um held you held a post-agenda on independent music venues, and so we've heard already from some of our independent music venues just how thin some of these um margins are and um and the reasons for needing to supplement even those venues with other creative partnerships and solutions.

So I think of this as a continuation of that conversation that you already started.

Uh I'd like to move to uh councilwoman Deb Gross, who's joining us online for some questions.

Thank you, ma'am chair, appreciate the time.

Um thank you all for being here, and um we have um I represent a district, including Lawrenceville, it overlaps with um state representative Powell, Bloomfield, even Pullish Hill, Friendship, even parts of Corningside and Manland Park that is very densely populated, and especially the main street areas.

You've got population density, really densely popular, like lots and lots of people per like square mile right up against business district.

So this is not a new topic to the residents in District 7 or any topic to myself.

And I definitely would say that we have experience and have come a long way, I think, as a city measuring sound.

And some of that has been permits licenses and inspections, and some of it has been police, some of it's been PLI.

Certainly we've come a long way 10 years ago, we didn't even have the right equipment to measure those.

And certainly the equipment's gotten better and more affordable and is more accessible to people.

So I have large institutions, it's not always music venues, right?

Hospitals with a lot of equipment noise, right?

Big big HVAC type equipment, vibrations coming off rooftops, is hardened said, landing in the most unexpected places, where the next door neighbors to you know a large hospital aren't hearing noise, but five blocks over and around the corner, it's it's exceeding the decibel levels, and we had to get measurements out there, and people um were heard, and measures were taken, and those noise those noise disturbances were corrected.

Um, so there is a path, and I think as um Allison also pointed out, sound engineers can do amazing things in pinpointing where the sources are, where the amplifications are happening and bouncing off of buildings and how that um sound is landing.

Most of council members, some people here at the table or law enforcement probably know, and my council colleagues certainly know, but maybe not everybody at the table is aware that we've been in a some 30 or 40-year struggle with the outdoor police firing range, which impacts multiple neighborhoods, and the way that that sound bounces that is a heavy list that we wouldn't expect a small business owner to be able to do, but we're spending millions of dollars in changing the orientation of that facility, creating earth and berms, uh etc.

So that it will bring down that decibel level.

Um, so those are just a handful of examples.

I could I could go on.

There are lots of other things.

Grocery stores, extra residential areas, same thing.

Figure out exactly what they both the decibel and that kind of pitch range we're talking about, the difference between a kind of a high pitch noise and a low pitch noise, and being able to isolate a specific piece of equipment, having the property owner rectify that situation, and you know, haven't gotten a complaint in 10 years.

So we have I think to we can do better in figuring out how we have different types of activities be good neighbors to each other, right?

So residential and commercial areas when they're really in tight proximity.

I think it is the responsibility of this body to figure out how they coexist, um, and so that their the businesses, especially I think the burden is on the commercial businesses to be good neighbors when they're right up against a residential area.

So I'm a little concerned about some of the tone that I think that I was hearing that this is we can't figure this out, or you know, our police can't measure these sounds, and so you know, sound isn't measurable.

It certainly is.

Um, and we have experience doing it, and we have experience finding the solutions so that both kinds of activities can exist close together.

Um I also want to point out, and there may be someone here at this table who could answer it, if not this table, the next one.

Um, Councilwoman Strasberger, I think in your opening comments, you said that um you know the conversations at 60 some decibels that you just measured yourself here in Chambers, is that right?

Yeah, I was fluctuating, but it was around the highest 0.68, 67.

Okay, so 67.

So if it were twice as loud, it would be what number?

Just ask anybody at the table.

So is this a trick one twenty-four?

134.

Well, I don't know.

I can't hear anyone.

Did anyone give an answer in the mic?

You're just asking what twice as loud would be of 60.

100.

120, 130 between there to play.

No, it would be 77.

So that was a trick question.

That was a gotcha.

I apologize, but I didn't have a screen I shouldn't share.

Um I think Alison mentioned that sound is and decibels are weird, they are not linear.

So if it was a straight line on the chart, like we have an XY axis and there's just a straight line going at an angle, that would mean that you have to do double the number to be double the sound.

But it is it's a curve that goes up.

And so every 10 decibels means that the sound it sounds twice as loud to you.

So a 20 decibel difference is a quadruple level of sound.

Um, so that's an important thing to keep in perspective.

So when we're saying that the law used to be 75, and that the tenor in the room was you know around 65, that means that that state law at 75 would have been on noise twice as loud as what was measured in chambers.

Um, so I learned this in the reverse when um we you know spent tens of thousands of dollars doing the sound engineering to the outdoor firing range, and the neighbors saw I think the decibels were dropping by maybe about 20 decibels, and they were like, that's crappy, that's not good enough.

But in learning it in reverse, that it would dramatically quiet the sound that they were actually hearing.

Um I think it's it's it's just one of those things where we, you know, when we learn how these things work, we we can do better.

Um, so I would I would I hope that this discussion um doesn't assume that um residents' complaints about noise are somehow illegitimate.

I would also hope that we in trying to have successful venues.

Certainly I think everybody I represent, I mean, nobody's anti-fun, right?

Um, that we want to they they choose the neighborhoods that I represent because we have such vibrant and exciting business districts, because we have such vibrant and exciting third places that almost all of the district, we have not all of it, not every square inch, but many, many residents can walk to their beloved um community businesses, their sacred spaces, as the representative said, and they're really cherished community assets and work very hard to support those businesses to make sure that they have customers that know us.

I'm representing Penn Avenue right now in its 20th year of construction, and we're really working to make sure those businesses get the resources they need to keep their doors open.

So the business districts are incredibly important to the city residents who live near them, and I think they really go out of their way to make sure that they help keep them alive.

Um, and so I think they're here for that conversation as well.

Um, in lots of these cases, I think it's fair to ask both parties to be good neighbors.

Um, so I don't know if anyone at the table has any thoughts.

Well, I have a little bit of a thought.

So I appreciate what you said, council Person.

Um I think the reason why uh at the state level I've taken up this issue is because it's a matter of being a good neighbor on both sides, and and again, in the district, I believe the community members that I've spoken to want a resolution.

The bar owners, the establishments want a resolution.

And so I think we're here today trying to figure out what is the best and most efficient way to address an issue that consistently I think is frustrating and confounds us.

That we've got I'll say I think an ineffective state system that makes it entirely inequitable, where as a resident, you're waiting for a response for often um months uh and you're leaving right next to the the kind of the complaint that you've made.

And then for bar owners and and and establishment owners um having to go through sometimes incredibly confusing um and redundant policies that can be expensive but also prohibit you from doing the type of business that you want to do.

And just because I hate a gotcha question, um 75 uh decibels I believe is more of a vacuum cleaner.

So uh we're talking probably not the the vacuum cleaner that I have because it's 15 years old, but um, but a vacuum cleaner.

So it is fair enough.

Yeah, but it is it it is 75 is is still a really hard level to maintain uh if you've got again these vibrant fun spaces, and not saying that every single bar and every single um establishment um is having these incredibly loud, incredibly boisterous um events.

Um oftentimes they'll get cited for having outside patio conversations, and so again, I agree with you that we've got to find um a resolution here.

But um, as someone representing the state, uh our state solution right now is is not working.

It's not fair to residents and it's not fair to business owners.

Thank you so much, representative.

I don't think I'm sharing screen.

I actually tried to just share my screen to evaluate what you said, um, that 75 is um about the level of a back container, but again, it is a curve that goes straight up.

I don't think I might someone has to tell me.

I'm not actually showing my screen, am I?

Because if you are not, I can't see it.

You're not um, but in fact, every 10 that you go up.

So if you might have 10 both that, if you were at 85 decibels, it would be, you know, at close range, twice the back container.

Um so you get into some pretty heavy equipment uh sounds, um, which would be comparable.

Uh so uh that's that's totally fair.

But the the representation that at 75 decibels is only a little bit higher than 65, is not the way that the chart works.

Um, so uh, but I do appreciate that I think that needs to be the direction of this conversation is how do we put standards in place?

Not everybody would be happy, of course, right?

There's always, you know, we're always here for compromise, uh, but that we do set standards.

I think it's okay for people to have expectations, um, but as you point out, that those should be more clear.

Um, and I uh, you know, certainly a south side is a lot different, and uh Bloomfield is a lot different, or Lawrenceville, where there's dense, again, really densely populated areas, a lot of hardscape, which again does strange things to um noise as opposed to soft, you know, you're next to a park with lots of trees or something like that.

Um so there's lots of elements to keep in mind as we continue to hear, I think, input on both sides.

Appreciate it.

Thanks, all you have for this panel manager.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I'll turn it over to Councilman Wilson who is joining us in person.

Thank you, Chair.

Thanks everyone for being here.

Good to see you all.

Uh I had a couple of questions just to set the grounds for um some of the questions I might ask.

So from my experience, I always see it come across the table where we're funding PLI.

Sorry, Alison, I'm looking at you because I think it may be another answer.

We're continually funding PLI to get training, and they get new or uh how how loud was that?

There's uh new new uh new devices.

Like the like, you know, we we buy purchase in some bulk, I think, for PLI.

But they work during the day, right?

And they're the ones that are responsible for going out during the day.

So that's correct.

So just during the day.

I know this is for restaurant and bars.

I doubt they're making too much noise during the day, but uh when's the last time we've we've cited someone for noise?

Uh the city?

Yeah, we know.

I don't know.

Nighttime economy.

Anyone or your police?

Well, I mean, from nighttime economy standpoint, they would only be cited for noise if they didn't have a liquor license.

Otherwise, the state has to do it.

Right, I heard that, yeah.

Um, so I think but for PLI.

No, you wouldn't know PLI.

No.

Do you all cite anyone for noise during the day?

During the day or at night?

At night occasionally.

You have.

When's the last time that's happened?

Um, probably sometime last year, you can cite it uh from a vehicle.

From a vehicle, yes.

Uh yeah, I'm hearing about a vehicle on Brighton Heights right now.

I'm serious.

You know about it, right?

Or whatever.

We're not gonna put you on the squad.

But uh there's a there's a loud vehicle, it sounds like sounds like gunfire, actually.

Yeah, it can actually set off the shot spotter.

It does it does set it off.

There's uh in a lot of resources going out there for this vehicle, so uh all right.

But in terms of night time, when's the last time that the uh that the state is cited a bar?

I I can't respond to exactly when the last time.

I mean, I do have the um I mean in 2026 they've had two citations so far, year to date.

Um for noise.

No, that's in 2026 there were two citations, two noise citations.

No, county.

Of the county, so uh for a total over three three and three and a half years, 32 noise citations, uh five of which were outside of um the city within boroughs and municipalities in Allegheny County.

What happens in there in your process?

Like what where does it go?

Does it go?

So after a cite, it would go to administrative law judge who would um put a range of a fine of 50 to a thousand dollars based on previous offenses, etc.

And then um the liquor code requires that if you have three citations, three noise violations within 24 months, um your license can be non-renewed.

So they would look at these over um 24 months.

LCB does non-renewals, so they would be contacting Bureau of Liquor Control Enforcement, also the city, they would be contacting them saying, hey, what incidents are you seeing?

And then based on that information, they would determine whether or not they would um renew or non-renew a license.

But I mean the numbers are c are low because partially it's it's um they there's only a hundred and thirteen liquor control enforcement officers for the entire state, and there's over thirty thousand liquor licenses.

Um I'm actually waiting.

I asked for a number of how many for the western region because that doesn't just mean Allegheny and it includes the counties around it.

Um I think the numbers are around like 50 some officers for that entire area that are going out and doing all liquor control enforcement, not just noise.

So, yeah.

That's a pretty big task.

That's yeah.

And so then with the with going back to nighttime with the the police, you all would be responsible for like a bar or a restaurant with the noise.

And the last time the all right, that wasn't a gotcha question.

I was just really just curious like where we're at with that.

Okay, and I heard your response in terms of like you working with the the bar owner.

Um, you know, if you can hear it two blocks away or something like that.

Okay.

Yeah, I'm just getting my bearings.

Thanks for having us.

I I do have um, you know, a little um a little insight into what my office gets complaints about, we give complaint about like you know, restaurants and bars sometimes, um, definitely not as frequent as uh my council colleague from the south side, but uh we do get complaints of noise that uh we, you know, quite frankly, I continue to tell a story uh when I when I hear people complain about like the the helicopter or um other noises that typically just exist in an urban environment.

I had a I had a buddy that uh I graduated with and he moved above a bar and they complained about the bar, like how loud it was.

I was like, Well, you moved above the bar.

So sometimes, you know, those are kind of one-off situations where people didn't realize that they moved where there's a helicopter, I guess.

I guess they thought that maybe some hospitals don't have a helicopter, but major hospitals have helicopters in Pittsburgh.

And um I typically get those complaints to not have the helicopter.

I'm not sure actually what the solution is there, but since this this is about uh restaurants as bars, uh I'm just gonna continue to listen to you all and and make sure I understand where we're at with this and where we can go.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilman.

And I wanted to make sure to utilize our time with this panel um to understand what some of the solutions look like.

So I guess Lynn, Alison, others, if you want to chime in, um that there is the a process for a municipality to request an exemption, that there's also a process potentially of a venue themselves potentially getting an exemption if that's if that's the case, or is it really just a municipality?

So municipality.

And um can you walk us through what that looks either either either person walk us through what that looks like and expound on that a little bit, you know, what some of the other solutions look like.

Because that's one, but I I understand that it's one of many, and they're it could take it could it could um take a different direction depending on what is the exact right solution for Pittsburgh or various Pittsburgh neighborhoods, right?

Well, um Title 40 of the of the regulations um that govern liquor address and in section I think is 5.36.

It basically outlines every step.

Um the municipality has to submit a resolution that confirms they support the petition to substitute municipal noise um enforcement for um in in absence of the state police.

Um it would include in it the noise ordinance, the municipal's intention to enforce the ordinance, um a written description of all the areas that would be included, including boundary lines um and exempted noise areas, uh various maps and their specific um size maps that have to be included of the geographic area, including designated boundary lines and proposed exempt noise areas.

Um after this is submitted a public hearing, um the well, first the municipality would have to uh propose a location to have a public hearing.

Then um the LCB would put public notice that this hearing was gonna have.

They would come with um a hearing examiner, and in cooperation with the municipality would have a public hearing on this.

Um and they would question, you know, who how are you going to enforce this?

Make sure like they aren't going to approve a resolution that doesn't have teeth behind it.

They want to make sure that it's going to be able to be enforced by um the municipality that is taking it over.

Um they have 60 days after receipt of the petition and the hearing all happen within that period of time to either approve, disapprove, kind of carte blanche, or they can um make modifications based on whether they think there's some health and safety concerns that need to be addressed.

And um so the process once the resolution is submitted is 60 days.

And then it would go to the board.

Thank you.

And Allison, would would you mind um sharing with us that what you ex if that were to be a path that we took, what you what you would expect the day to day to look like after that?

I understand you've already articulated that there are various options or models from other cities in terms of how to demonstrate as we heard that there would be enforcement or teeth behind it, that it wouldn't just be uh the wild west of no of noise.

But and that's not what we would do.

We're a city, we have professionals who work for the city.

But what what do you expect the day-to-day to look like as a potential?

Well, I think that it would be um, I think there'd be a lot more relief on both sides, first of all.

I think residents would be um happy to have their pro in when we spoke with them.

They were like, they said we should be solving our problems locally, and we should we should be the ones handling this.

Um, and so I think that you know, to get faster resolution and um more effective resolution with um local response, which didn't wouldn't have to be police, other cities have done it different ways.

Um I think from the standpoint of you know, resident or I'm sorry, businesses, they wouldn't have to worry as much.

Um I don't think it would really in the cities that have implemented this, a lot of times they what what they found is they had um areas that were problematic or just one a lot of the places that have done it have been very small, except for Harrisburg and uh state college, I would say, Erie, um the the smaller cities were really looking to you know put put the screws to a little bit the the businesses that were really egregious and really did deserve to have more enforcement and they got it, they got that, they got that more swiftly.

But um state college in particular has done it the longest.

Um now they're they're exempt because they fell into the under that change that allowed every other county except Philadelphia and Allegheny, but state college looked at uh seeking an exemption, and they had it for 15 years or more.

But when they first got it, it was they they did it for a year, it's almost like a pilot to figure out what some of the bugs are or whether this is working or not, and you can rescind that um uh process.

So they were given they but they looked at this.

They wanted to get this exemption for that very example that I gave at the beginning where it was like they were looking at two businesses doing the same thing, and they said this isn't fair.

We're we're we're not able to enforce equitably, and that's why they sought the exemption.

So I think um I think it'll give us more um the city more ability to take on solving problems in our own way and more swiftly, more efficiently, and I think maybe we might see more uh entertainment and more um places taking on music without that fear of having to reach a zero decibel.

Now it you realize that zero decibel at the property line of the business, the city ordinance, a licensed premise.

I'm sorry, at the license, at the license premise, not even at the property line.

If you're on the sidewalk, you've got to be at the door of the licensed premise.

But at the city, we're looking at how it is the receiver and how they are experiencing the sound.

So doesn't that sound a little more reasonable than you know zero is impossible?

We we just know you can breathe and it's more than zero.

Um, but maybe you won't hear it at the property line.

But you could yell.

Uh you could yell on the microphone.

Um, but I just think I don't think it will change things in a negative way.

I think it will be more of a positive than anything, I think municipalities that have decided to do the noise exemption are doing it because the one size fits all approach under the state doesn't work.

Um the provision in there that says you can get to 75 decibels is still says if you have a municipal noise exemption that preempts that.

So there are situations where a municipality has adopted a noise um resolution that is stricter than what the state has of the 75 decibels.

That is what is that is what takes precedence over what is written in the liquor code.

I think that the other thing is is that there's a lot of flexibility within the ability to do these noise exemptions.

If I could add one more thing, I think if you had it at the more this noise enforcement at a more granular level, you have the ability to be innovative here.

Talking to Alice in their cities that as you're interested in getting um what would be equivalent to an amusement permit that if you're going to do amplified noise, there are opportunities to help you figure out what sound mitigation looks like.

How can you do sound proofing as you're building out a new place as you're renovating a place?

And so again, the ability to have this at the municipal level, the city of Pittsburgh gets the city of Pittsburgh gets to determine what intentional noise mitigation looks like and can be more creative in what businesses, bars, establishments can do and what they should be expected to do as well.

I I would like to add that you know these smaller cities were able to do to carve out a small area that they wanted to focus on because it was a problem.

But I would I would say that if we are going to do this, we should do it citywide because if you're doing it in one area and not the other, you still have the same confusion, right?

Still is it state or is it city?

So we could have, you know, Southside have the exemption and the rest of the city doesn't.

Then wouldn't people that want to have music venues would all move to South Side and not people or other districts?

So I I would warn a little bit against that or at least give it some thought.

But I think also that we're not solving that problem of confusion of and in equitable enforcement.

Thank you.

I am looking to um start to wrap up this panel so we can get the other one, but before we do, I want to make sure that I mean we haven't heard from public safety representatives for a minute.

Is there anything you wanted to respond to that you heard in the last few minutes and then to anyone else any final remarks or answers that you wanted to give to questions that we didn't ask?

I appreciate it.

From me, I think everything's been covered, and I appreciate the opportunity.

Thank you.

Yeah, I agree.

Everything's been covered, and thank you for having us.

Thank you for being here.

Any final thoughts from anyone else?

All right.

Well, thank you all to our invited guests for panel number one.

You're you're free to go, you're free to stay in the audience and listen.

Whatever you wish, and I'll ask Allison Harden to stay a stick around for panel number two as well.

Uh, while everyone's coming up, I'll I'll read off who we have as our second set of invited guests, David Kushner from Trace Brewing, Melissa Larrick from the Pittsburgh Brewers Guild, Adam Valen from Dresky Entertainment, Alex Moser from Wiggle Whiskey, and Chris Copen from Bottle Rocket.

I know.

Feel free to sit wherever you like.

And check.

Join us up here.

Oh, that's one big glass of water, huh?

Welcome.

So you've heard, you've heard what we've um the conversation, the questions that have come up up until now.

I guess we'll start with, again, going down the line.

You're welcome to introduce yourself, who you are, who you're representing today, and any opening remarks you might have before we open it up to council member questions.

Oh, here.

But make sure that your microphones are um green, and you can just, if you don't mind, leave those on so we don't have to fiddle with them.

Good afternoon, members of council.

Thank you, Councilmember Strasberger, for creating a space for all of us to discuss this important issue.

My name is David Kushner, and I'm the co-founder of Trace Brewing.

We opened in winter of 2020 on mainstream Bloomfield.

Our brewery coffee shop in Taproom has served as a vital community space and safe haven for all.

Most notably the marginalized BIPOC and LGBTQ communities.

Creating an inclusive space requires more than just words and admission statement.

We work hard to partner with a range of nonprofits, businesses, community organizations, food vendors, artists, entertainers, and musicians who champion these marginalized groups.

Our partners are often members of these groups themselves.

And with this congregation comes as a celebration of our individual and collective culture, manifested by music and other forms of amplified expression.

PLCB section 4934 creates a disproportionate and damaging impact on these communities, the small businesses they support, and the Pittsburgh hospitality and nighttime economy as a whole.

At its core, the PLCB regulation treats amplified entertainment as a liability and a regulatory compliance issue.

Instead of what it actually is, an economic driver, a cultural asset, and one of the few proven tools businesses have remaining to increase foot traffic to sustain revenue.

The regulation effectively creates grounds for enforcement against entertainment activity whenever music or sound can be heard beyond a property line.

Zero decibels, zero tolerance.

In practice, that creates uncertainty amongst operators, significant and equitable enforcement of the law, and places enormous pressure on independent venues, bars, and mixed use spaces that are already operating on razor-thin margins.

What makes the current state of affairs especially frustrating is that Pennsylvania law already recognizes that cities have the capability to manage these issues locally.

The reasonable noise ordinances and enforcement mechanisms.

In 2022, Governor Rolls Path of Act 67.

We've already chatted about that.

This change encompasses every county in the state of Pennsylvania except Allegheny and Philadelphia counties.

Take a look at all the counties and cities affected by this change over the last five years since the passage of Act 67.

Are police forces overwhelmed by noise complaints?

No.

Are businesses running amok without an enforcement arm to keep them in place?

No.

Pittsburgh and Philadelphia are currently the only cities in the country where amplified sound from liquor licensed establishments is regulated by a state agency.

And furthermore, the only cities where businesses must operate under the unreasonable, impossible to abide by zero decibel zero tolerance standard.

Every other city sets the standard at a decibel level that can be easily measured or creates a standard where the noise does not quote disturb a reasonable person of normal sensitivities.

We're the only counties in the country which are playing by this bright line rule, where if there is any sound, no matter the level, no matter how reasonable, no matter the cause or the purpose, a liquor licensed business is in violation.

The conversation we're having today is not about taking away residents' right to file complaints or seek revenues for legitimate noise concerns.

What we are discussing is who should be responsible for enforcement.

The answer is the city of Pittsburgh.

Right now, section 4934 places our responsibility in the hands of Pennsylvania state police through liquor enforcement mechanisms that can threaten a business's license over issues that are fundamentally local in nature, and are to argue completely disconnected from the statutory purpose of the PLCP.

Most concerning LCE noise investigations include the use of plain clothed, undercover, concealed weapon carrying state police officers that are unbeknownst to the public, shoulder to shoulder with guests in these safe spaces.

That's not to say there isn't a time or place these armed officers should be in liquor license spaces where they need to investigate violence or illicit crimes or unlicensed serving of alcoholic beverages.

Our point is that they shouldn't be in these spaces as a sole result of a single anonymous noise complaint.

As we witnessed their presence during the raid last May at LGBTQ plus bar in a terrible light on a national level.

This is not about eliminating accountability.

It's about acknowledging that noise disputes in dense urban environments are better addressed at the city level by city police, local code enforcement, and elected officials who understand the context of Pittsburgh neighborhoods, business corridors, and community standards.

It's about acknowledging that the perception experience of the surrounding community runs in direct conflict with the current legislative enforcement duties of the PLCB and LCE.

This conflict is real and undeniable.

In 2018, the James Street Tavern, which had operated as a community music venue for over 50 years close to the public.

According to the owner, quote, we have so much support from the North Side.

All the organizations, all our neighbors have come out to support us.

We love being here, but there must be one or two neighbors that don't like us being here.

And it's all anonymous.

And a stroke of some irony.

On the very same day the owner decided to shutter its doors as a result of never-ending LCE investigations.

How can you be the best in the eyes of your city and a nuisance in the eyes of the state?

Jane Street was not a nuisance bar.

Trace Brewing, nor anyone else sitting at this table today represents a nuisance bar.

We cannot continue to let this happen to our beloved businesses in this city.

This is about creating more balanced, modern and locally controlled system that protects residents while lying businesses operate and best and contribute to Pittsburgh's economy and culture without fear of inequitable and disproportionate state level penalties.

Pittsburgh is fully capable of balancing residential quality of life with economic vitality.

We can support residents while also supporting small businesses that depend on entertainment to survive.

Council has the opportunity to advocate for reform that reflects the realities of modern cities and modern conditions.

I urge as council to support meaningful reform, pursue broader exemptions for the state regulatory agencies, and advocate for a framework that protects neighborhoods without straining the very businesses that bring life to them.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Thank you very much.

We'll just work our way down the line.

So please introduce yourself and any remarks you have.

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Council members.

My name is Melissa Larrick and I serve as the executive director of the Pittsburgh Brewers Guild.

We're a nonprofit organization representing 46 independent breweries throughout Allegheny County, 17 of which are located in the city of Pittsburgh.

I thank you today for the opportunity to speak.

I want to begin by making something very clear.

Our members are not asking for an elimination of sound ordinances, nor are we arguing against the rights of residents to expect reasonable peace within their neighborhoods.

We believe in responsible business practices, accountability, and reasonable enforcement when legitimate quality of life concerns arise.

What we're asking for is for fairness, clarity, and a more reasonable path to resolution.

As you explained in your opening remarks, currently Allegheny County and Philadelphia County establishments that hold liquor licenses are subject to a unique enforcement structure regarding amplified sound.

If a noise complaint is made against a brewery, restaurant, or bar, the issue does not simply route through local law enforcement or municipal code enforcement as it would for most other businesses.

Under this current structure, all it takes is a single complaint to initiate a process that immediately carries consequences far beyond a typical neighborhood dispute.

The result is that many small businesses are discouraged from hosting all the very special kinds of programming that are quintessential to those third spaces that were mentioned by Representative Powell earlier today.

Um, real quick, I just want to share a quick example from one of our member breweries, Allegheny City Brewing.

Um, shortly after pandemic restrictions eased in 2023, the brewery rented a fully permitted vacant lot on East Ohio Street to create a safe outdoor gathering space for the community.

The idea gained support from the Northside Leadership Conference, which funded and promoted a summer music series featuring local musicians, and the event was family-friendly, community-oriented, and intentionally modest in scope, only once per month on Fridays from 5 to 8 p.m.

The events had the support from local leadership, including their city council representative and zone one police leadership.

But after just one event, the series was forced to shut down.

Why?

Because someone reported that amplified sound could be heard from the public sidewalk directly in front of the lot.

An LCE officer responded and informed the brewery that because they held a liquor license, they were in violation of state law and were being issued an official warning along with notice of future fines.

The officer reportedly acknowledged that if the exact same event had hosted or had been hosted by a non-alcohol-related business organization, there would likely have been no issue at all.

I can also speak to this firsthand.

Um, in addition to my role as executive director, I'm the manager of marketing and partnerships at Cinderlin's.

We are on the 2600 block of Smallman Street.

You're very familiar that our landscape has changed drastically since we've been in business starting in 2019.

Um we have apartments going up all around us, so now we have become a residential area.

And in recent times, you know, I'm responsible for um, you know, the programming, the special, you know, things that require amplified sound, but we really pull back on that because we don't want to have these kind of calls or an investigation.

Um, we did have that um shortly after we opened in 2022.

Um, a city of police officer responded to the call.

They ran around with our general manager, check the decibels, everything was great.

A few days later, the control boards showed up, and we were under investigation.

So, a lot of businesses feel singled out, um, but our peers in surrounding counties can often work through these similar issues locally through municipal processes and police departments without immediately placing a liquor license under scrutiny.

The businesses within the city of Pittsburgh should have access to that same reasonable path towards resolution.

We're not asking to avoid accountability or bypass sound ordinances.

We are simply asking for a system that distinguishes between true nuisance behavior and responsible programming for the community, just like those thirds pieces.

The breweries kind of sets them apart from your regular uh quintessential bar.

I thank you all for your time.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Uh my name is Chris Copen.

I own Bottle Rocket Social Hall in the Allentown neighborhood of Pittsburgh.

Since opening in 2022, Bottle Rocket has hosted thousands of events and become a staple of our community, a welcoming place for everybody from Rick Seaback to Pete Davidson.

I'm here today to speak about our personal experience with the noise ordinance enforcement.

Uh, enforcement that probably won't appear in many statistics and are frequently swept under the rug by businesses afraid of speaking out or publicizing uh the actions that are taking place in their business.

On October 31st, 2023, during a sold-out concert, our bar was swarmed by over a dozen uniformed police officers.

The show was halted, customers were told to line up against the walls to be counted, and officers searched our premises from top to bottom, ruining one of the busiest nights of our year.

In the end, they cited us with one violation, an improperly framed liquor license.

I happened to be out of town during this raid and spent the next five days trying to answer the very basic questions of who visited our bar and why.

Finally, with help from the Office of Nighttime Economy, we were able to track down the answer.

We had been visited by the Nuisance Bar task force.

This was shocking to me.

I knew what a nuisance bar was, and I was very embarrassed that mine could be considered one.

But when I inquired as to what exactly put us on their list, I was given only vagaries.

After a week of questions, we were eventually told that we had compiled dozens of 311 noise complaints in the previous months.

Complaints that we were given no indication existed until the nuisance bar task force arrived.

When we were when we asked for any additional information about these 311 complaints, including the ability to look at our 311 file, we were flatly denied.

It is important to know that Bottle Rocket is quite literally located directly in between two police-owned parking lots and is adjacent to the Zone 3 police station.

In theory, there is no easier bar in the city for the police or any other enforcement officer to have a dialogue with, should they need to.

In all of our day-to-day conversations with the police as our neighbor noise complaints were never brought up.

The officers who made up the Nuisance Bar task force on Halloween night were mostly the exact same officers who we said hello to every day as they walked by our front door to get to their police cars.

Like all of the businesses appearing before you today, we have a strong relationship with our neighborhood and take pride in our status as a cornerstone for our community.

Had anyone alerted us to these complaints, we would have been happy to remedy them immediately, whether that be through simple actions the night the complaints occurred, or by investing in longer term solutions.

These conversations though were not allowed to happen, and perhaps more shockingly seem to be of little interest to the people obstensibly tasked with having them.

This would lead me to believe that the current system also leads to a similar feeling for the citizens making legitimate complaints to whom it would appear nothing is being done while their complaints are logged into a wholly unseeable trial stacking up for years.

I fully understand and support the need for enforcement against bad actors in our community, but the current system feels designed almost exclusively to embarrass and punish us with zero interest in having a dialogue or actually working to solve complaints.

Even the most actively engaged or buttoned-up operations are given no realistic path to avoid this treatment because there is no warning or record of complaints or where they come from until the task force is on your doorstep.

The zero-sum approach to the ordinance has also led to the rapid weaponization of it by people who seek to use it as revenge for unrelated personal issues.

Whether that be standing as a safe space in our community, attracting the use of public parking, or for the perceived slight of operating as we have for years next to newly redeveloped property.

There simply has to be a better way for the city and public to communicate with the businesses in their neighborhood, a way that is not dozens of armed officers storming into our spaces during peak business, leaving behind only a trail of confusion and unanswerable questions.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Good afternoon, council members.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak today.

Councilwoman Straussberger, thank you for hosting this.

My name is Adam Ballon.

I serve as the marketing director for Drusk Entertainment, which is an independently owned and uh concert promoter in the city of Pittsburgh, as well as the vice president of the Pennsylvania chapter of NEVA, which is the National Dependent Venue Association.

We are a national organization that represents independent venues, promoters, comedy clubs, and festivals across the country.

And before I dive deeper, I just want to state that I'm not a club owner, but I've worked in and around independent clubs for the last 13 years.

I'm here today because independent venues across Pittsburgh are facing a really growing challenge around how the city's noise ordinance is enforced, and more specifically, who enforces it.

Right now, when a noise complaint is made against the liquor licensed venue, enforcement is often routed through the Pennsylvania liquor control enforcement and uh triggering the nuisance bar task force rather than through city personnel focused on measuring and resolving sound violations sound violations directly.

What should be a straightforward quality of life issue around decibel levels is instead become tied to liquor enforcement actions that can escalate into bar aids, operational disruptions, and punitive investigations that create fear for patrons, staff, artists, and small businesses alike.

For many independent venues, these responses feel disproportionate to the issue being reported.

Uh, much like DeCurs's story.

Imagine being a patron attending a concert, a comedy show or a community event, and suddenly seeing armed enforcement officers enter a venue over a noise complaint.

That experience is alarming, it disrupts operations real time, it damages reputations, it discourages attendance, and more importantly, it does not actually solve the underlying issue of sound mitigation and neighborhood coexistence.

Stories like those mentioned before and after myself are not uncommon.

While they are a small number of us representing nightlife and licensed establishments, I want to acknowledge that membership that their membership that are not here, and that I encourage council members to gather experiences like those that have been mentioned before when dealing with things like bar aids and whether or not there was any resolution and what residual damages were dealt with at the onset and follow-up of those events.

We consider many of our venues to be safe spaces and not innocent stick in the community.

We are the spaces where people look to when they're looking to enjoy themselves, to laugh, to cry, to sing and to cheer.

When you remove the safety net from under us, and all of a sudden all that space is occupied by fear, conflict, and more importantly, lack of resolution, the space no longer feels safe, and that lifelong customer may change their perspective of vibrancy, arts, entertainment, nightlife, and elect to remain home.

As Alison mentioned before, we want to thrive to become a sociable city.

From a marketing perspective as well, people are much more likely to remember that one negative experience, as Chris mentioned, and hold that longer over the 99 great times that they've had in that establishment.

It may affect their relationship with that venue as a whole out of out of a reaction that had nothing to do with um with noise.

Independent venues want to be good neighbors.

Many of us are actively engaged in activating third spaces as many of us have mentioned, hosting community events, fundraisers, town halls, safety workshops, and more outside of just programming events.

Most operators are willing to work collaboratively on sound management, communication with nearby residents, curfews, decibel monitoring, and reasonable sound operational improvements.

But the current enforcement structure skips over problem solving and moves immediately into a system designed primarily around liquor code enforcement rather than municipal noise resolution.

That distinction matters because independent venues are not simply bars, they are cultural infrastructure in addition to economic drivers.

Across Pennsylvania from our state PA State Alive report, independent the independent live sector contributes approximately two million dollars, two billion dollars, sorry, to the state GDP.

We generate $3.6 billion in total economic output.

We support more than 24,000 jobs.

We drive over 278 million in off-site tourism spending at nearby restaurants, hotels, transportation services, local businesses.

These venues, these venues are economic engines for neighborhoods and businesses districts throughout Pittsburgh.

They activate corridors after traditional business hours.

They attract tourism, they provide opportunities for artists, production workers, security, bartender, stagehand, photographers, marketers, and countless others who make up Pittsburgh's creative economy.

And yet, despite that impact, only 28% of independent stages across Pennsylvania have been reported profitable in 2024.

This is already an industry operating on rage within margins as many are raised within margins as many have already alluded to.

So when an equitable enforcement mechanisms create additional instability, uncertainty, or fear around operating live events, it becomes harder for these businesses to survive, especially small and mid-sized independent operators who do not have the resources of multi-interna multinational entertainment corporations.

What we're discussing and advocating for today is not the elimination of accountability.

We believe noise ordinance matter.

Residents deserve peace, safety, and responsiveness from the city.

If this issue of sound levels, if the issue is sound levels, then the response should prioritize sound measurement, mediation, compliance pathways, and community-based resolution, not enforcement structures designed to penalize good faith actors.

Pittsburgh has an opportunity to create a more balanced framework, one that protects residents while also supporting independent cultural institutions that are vital to the city's economy and identity.

Other major cities recognize that thriving music and entertainment ecosystems require collaboration between government, neighborhood, and venues, not adversarial enforcement models that undermine trust.

Pittsburgh has long been recognized as a city with rich cultural and musical legacy, but if we want artists, entrepreneurs, venues, and creative workers who continue investing in the city, we need policies that encourage sustainability and partnership rather than fear and unpredictability.

At the end of the day, this conversation is bigger than noise.

It's about how Pittsburgh chooses to support small businesses, nightlife tourism, arts and culture, and the independent operators who help make the city vibrant.

We are asking for a fairer, more modern, and more locally accountable approach, accountable approach to enforcement, one that addresses legitimate concerns while allowing independent venues to continue serving the communities, neighborhoods, and economic ecosystems that they rely on that rely on them.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I'm Alice Roser, a COO with Wiggle Whiskey.

Thank you all for being here.

And Bobby, I'll apologize.

One of my employees lives in your district and complains a lot.

So not about you.

We'll talk offline.

Okay, we can.

You'll know.

So I'm gonna take a little different approach and appreciate what everyone said is we have a bar, restaurant, and we manufacture in the strip district.

Um my big issue right now is uh we have a gentleman that moved in way after us because we've been there since 2012 and uh um complains about us multiple times and we've gone through two investigations in two years.

So I guess there's been 26 investigations in the last couple years, and two of them that have been not.

We close at nine o'clock.

We are we are not a you know, a high volume bar.

We are a tasting facility and we manufacture.

If this gentleman can keep and I will tell you too that the investigation is not a light one.

We have to pull two years of receipts of everything.

We have to talk about um I have to show an employee roster.

I mean, it is in depth.

And frankly, I'm not even sure the investigator wants to be there because he knows that there's probably more serious issues out there, but they are driven by complaints.

Uh the biggest issue for us, though, is I've got 80 employees.

Our focus is on making great whiskey for the city of Pittsburgh and beyond.

And because this gentleman doesn't like when we have an acoustic guitar player playing, um, our whole business could go down, and you know, we're not gonna put up with it much longer, and we're gonna move.

Um, we will leave, we'll leave the strip district if this continues because I don't have the time bandwidth to go through it, and it's not a threat, it's just a fact.

Um, so it that's a whole other portion of that.

And the way our our liquor license is how we would do business is if our liquor license were to be suspended, our our license is coupled with a manufacturing license.

We would we would be we wouldn't be able to produce, and our whole business would sink.

So that's kind of where I am.

I'm hopeful that we can figure out another way to do this.

Um, and again, just like everybody else here, we are in complete respect of being good neighbors.

I like being a good neighbor.

I've lived in the city limits for most of my life.

Um, but I I think we need to find a different way because this isn't working.

Thank you for having me and listening.

Thank you all for your opening remarks, your testimony.

Uh really powerful, and I appreciate all that you were able to kind of uh illustrate to build off of the conversation that we had initially.

I'll I'll reserve my questions for now and turn it over to my council colleagues in the same order.

So, councilperson Charland, you're up.

Uh sorry.

So thank you guys for being here.

Um I kind of want to start off.

We had the discussion um with more of the governmental and public safety folks beforehand.

Um as you guys listened to that conversation, is anything that you wanted to add, um, anything that can't kind of came to mind as you were uh hearing us discuss with them about you know what policies might look like.

Yeah, I think like, you know, the the question about the statistics and everything, I definitely get it.

It looks like a low number, but you know, like the situation I outlined at Bottle Rocket is not represented in any statistic, it was just an enforcement action uh, you know, uh during a night of enforcement actions.

And I know, you know, there's a similar thing occurred at Pete Town, which created a lot of uh publicity and and really did not make the city look great.

Uh and that's also not recorded as technically a noise ordinance complaint, right?

But it was triggered by 311 noise ordinance calls.

So um, yeah, I would just, you know, that that would be the one thing I would say is a lot of the stuff is kind of invisible, and a lot of times, you know, businesses don't want to talk about this that it happened because it is embarrassing to say that dozens of uniformed police officers raided your business in the middle of the day or in the middle of the night.

Um, you know, both if you say that to customers, they probably why?

What are you hiding?

What are you doing?

That you shouldn't be doing, right?

Um, so you know, I just I think that that goes a long way to say that there are this is happening, but it's probably happening more frequently than it's being reported, I guess.

And I will add, um, I think that you know the data really cuts both ways, um, specifically towards like the police department.

I'll say that I don't think the police department should be the one, the police department enforcing the um noise ordinance.

I think that could be nighttime economy or PLI.

But what we heard is that um there isn't bandwidth for the police to do this, but we then also heard that there's only been 27 complaints over the last three years.

So I think that when you look at the number of complaints coming in, it's not about the quantity, it's just about the disproportionate impact on these specific businesses when these complaints are elevated to the state level.

So, you know, I think that the Pittsburgh police do a great job responding to nose complaints.

I think that you know there are hundreds probably that are called in specifically to liquor um businesses, and they will come in and they'll ask for these people we turned down, they'll understand what time the ban's gonna be over.

So the police are already responding to noise complaints, they're just not the ones responsible for enforcing the regulation against these liquor licenses, and that's what we're asking a change for.

Um so I will say that like I think there's definitely a balance um when it comes to the how much the Pittsburgh police are able to um handle.

Um, so I think that the thing that kind of comes to mind here, if I can just speak frankly, is that this the way we approach sound enforcement, it it seems like just never work in my favor.

Like it it hurts the people that we want to help, and it doesn't help us like the the problematic establishments, you know, the the capos on Carson that that we really like need to find ways to enforce to to uh to combat them and and we never get any any opportunities there.

I mean, but then like you know, I'm pretty well everybody knows that I'm the huge fan of Bottle Rocket.

I'm I'm I'm going there tonight, you know.

So uh, you know, so my my buddies and I got tickets like I hear that you're um that you were looked at as a nuisance bar, and like the neighborhood loves you.

You know, you guys you guys are like beloved in the neighborhood.

And you're also like you're not next to, you know, it's not it's not a super dense neighborhood, I would say.

Well, I mean, you guys have space, you have parking lots on either side.

I mean the police parking lots.

I mean, Miss Miss Judy is the one that would complain.

Right.

She's a regular at your establishment.

Yeah.

And she's, you know, but she's like one block away.

You know, so it's it's like to hear that that happens, and then we can't get for all of the all the issues we have at 1401 East Carson, we can't get any sort of enforcement on them.

Um it just it seems like it's a policy that is is broken.

You know, it's it's backwards.

Yeah, I think, you know, uh in I I said it in my statement, but the it feels like it's currently designed exclusively to embarrass us, you know, not uh actually solve the problem, you know.

Like I think, and this goes to the point of the police being you know not having the resources to be the ones enforcing it, is like we probably they'd be asked to enforce less if we were actually having dialogue with the people making the complaints and if we were given that opportunity.

Um but instead it's like a complaint is made, it's assumed that it's to be true, and therefore it's you know, uh there's action that needs to be taken.

There's no intermediate step uh of actually acting as neighbors or acting as a community and being able to sit down with the person.

Uh you know, I get that it there's situations where it needs that needs to be anonymous.

I mean, those people don't feel comfortable like reporting it in person or or having a conversation, but there needs to be some dialogue with the businesses, I think, to figure out you know, is this bottle rocket where we'd be happy to solve the problem if we were alerted to it, or is this another you know, bar that they don't care?

It needs to be some intermediate step, you know, in my opinion.

Yeah, and I'll add to that is in between investigations.

We had we we apparently had people undercover at our place, which is just ludicrous.

So I mean, the amount of resources even on the state side, it's just it's ludicrous.

Yeah, I think uh to add to that that it's important, you know, having this conversation that it does need to be truly collaborative between the business owners and the community that we operate in.

However, the biggest issue at hand is that mitigation of taking, you know, whenever the complaint supersedes local law enforcement goes straight to the LCE and it puts all of our businesses in jeopardy.

That is the largest point here at hand.

Like I think that you know, at the end of the day, as a community we can all work together, but the biggest threat that we have is just how we are going to operate if we continue with these, you know, um investigations, these threats.

Can I just want to remind that point too?

Um, you know, this is some of the what office of nighttime economy should be able to do is to step in and assist businesses.

But if it is an LCE investigation, we're prohibited from doing that.

Um, which is again, why aren't we helping people get into compliance rather than just I oh we got you.

Um I think something else that hasn't been brought up, I mean, maybe you you're talking about the layers of investigation, but something that's disturbing to me is that when a sound of complaint is issued, part of that investigation is to door knock around the neighborhood to see if other neighbors have a problem with the business.

And I mean, it just seems like you're seeking out more complaint rather than just dealing with what's there.

And the investigation goes beyond sound to, you know, the whole operation and the staffing and all of that.

If it's a truly a sound complaint, just stick in that lane, I think, rather than trying to look for other violations.

So it it I understand on just seven.

I mean, it it open as I said, there was incredible amount of things that we had disclosed, including financials, and that really opens us up.

Um then I think the last thing I kind of wanted to just mention, um, is we talk a lot about what it's you know, what we can do to help independent venues um with sound issues.

There's you you know you can get sound mitigation.

Um have you guys explored that?

Can you tell us a little bit of like how expensive that is?

What I'm really looking for is you is for you guys to kind of kind of say like this is very cost prohibitive.

I'll speak and I'll speak on behalf of someone who um wrote to me yesterday that the owner of Spirit in Lawrenceville, Leock, and they've been under investigation numerous times as source of one neighbor who they've um tried to, you know, work with through conversations and having drinks um to no avail.

In 2017, they spent 15,000 on soundproofing measures.

2019 they spent 45,000 on advanced insulation.

In 2022 to 2023, they spent another $15,000 dollars on acoustic engineers to improve improve sound mitigation.

And in 2024, they spent $325,000 trying to insulate their roof, and they are still getting complaints.

And I'll just jump in and say, you know, we talked about this at the venue panel, but this is a b uh industry where 60% of the businesses are, you know, lost money in 2025, and the 40% that are making money, the average profit margin is two to three percent.

You're doing community service.

Sometimes it feels so.

Well, you know, and you know, as as Adam and Chris, you guys know, um, we've been talking a lot about the future of doing an independent venue task force and what that would look like.

Um, but this is definitely gonna be a topic, so council members uh be be prepared that we're gonna be talking about what it would look like to be able to try and help create some city grants for um some of the sound mitigation.

Um, you know, maybe some level is is not enough.

So you know that that's a lot of money.

Yeah, and I think that you know, I think when you spend that kind of money, that only s adds context to the conversation where if there's on the local level, you'll be able to then assess the reasonableness of these complaints.

That when a business takes the time and effort to work with their neighbors to implement changes, um, then they're not recognized because the LCs, their hands are really tied.

They're saying, look, the law's the laws.

If I can hear it at right at the entrance, you're still breaking it.

They're not weighing the reasonfulness and all the mitigation all the time that that owner might have been doing in good faith.

And I'll say too, that you know, that has really led to you know, weaponization of this by people who don't agree with the types of programming that we're doing.

They they don't like that there's their parking is being taken up by people visiting the neighborhood, is a thousand reasons that people call on these complaints, and um it's a zero, it's a zero sum game.

You know, they're all treated equally.

Alright, well, thank you guys very much.

Uh thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you.

I'll turn it back over to Councilwoman Deb Gross.

Thank you all.

I really appreciate your being here today and your comments and especially the, I think the approach that I heard is that there's you know a two-way street where businesses and neighbors um have uh both a responsibility to be good neighbors.

Um and so I I really I think it echoes what I was framing in other kinds of businesses, whether it was hospitals or grocery stores, even the firing range, where there is it may not be easy, it may take uh some time, but there's a way to try to identify and mitigate um some of the issues.

Um I also want to kind of tease out what I'm hearing about the very distressing examples of the new sense bar task force raids, um, which were really upsetting um to many patrons and the operators.

I'm sorry, I didn't know about the bottle rocket um raid.

I'm concerned to hear about that one as well.

I think we need another conversation about what we're doing with our nuisance bar task force.

Um so what I'm hearing is that removing the LCs uh zero decibel um threshold, which is unattainable, um, but then also removing removes them also from enforcement if we enact at the municipal, like at the municipal exception and establish our own standards and own enforcement mechanism.

And then I'm hearing that there's some maybe disagreement with people about whether that could be at the police department for enforcement or at the national economy for enforcement.

Um I want to be sure that as the city, there isn't just some other 311 type call that triggers these types of raids by the nuisance bar task force.

Um, because to not even have you know, to to not have any transparency about the complaints that were recorded.

Um we need a better definition of what is considered a new sense bar.

Or that new sense bar task force should not be going there.

Uh and shouldn't be raiding bars that maybe just have some 311 complaints that they say are there, but no one can see what they are, even though they're anonymous.

And you know, people get both commercial businesses get 301 complaints, but also residential property owners get 311 complaints, and there's a there's a pathway to fixing and addressing the problem that's quite long, and um so as to not you know have people losing their homes, for example, or something like that.

So um I certainly think this is a good beginning to the conversation to figure out how we're not just uh giving LCE um too much enforcement power where we don't need to.

Um, but that I want to I I think I'll have some separate questions, not for this panelist, right?

Because these are bar owners here at the table, but that uh I think there's more digging that and assurances the council needs, my colleagues as well, for um when this, you know, again, as you described, like people in like bulletproofs with automatic weapons are clearing an establishment of all of its patrons over, you know, complaints we're not really sure what they are.

You know, certainly like P Town, a business that I never have had a resident playing was a nuisance bar, um, and I don't consider it to be a nuisance bar.

So why was the nuisance bar task force there?

Um so I think there's a lot to unpack here, and I appreciate everybody's willingness to spend the time and attention, um, to figuring out you know what kinds of noise levels are um appropriate at what levels where sound proofing is needed.

Certainly the uh for the examples that were given about spirit, uh we checked our own records while there's still aren't uh complaints coming into the LCE.

My office has not had a complaint about spirit for many years, and we did work closely with them in those earlier years that were cited because we did get the complaints from neighbors, and those you know, by and large, except for the ones at the LCE, they're not coming to my office.

So I do think that most, you know, certainly it's a well-loved institution as well, lots of lots of celebrations there, lots of um really an amazing uh community space um that is relished by very many people.

Uh so there's there's a lot to tease out here, and we want to make sure that we are both providing livable neighborhoods, but also by rank business district.

So I look forward to that conversation.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilwoman, I didn't know um if there I I wanted to open up to any um one here to respond to any of that.

I'll also note that yes, a councilwoman, I do agree with you that there is a separate conversation that absolutely has to be had that we should all probably have as counsel along with our partners at city government and at the state as well around the nuisance bar task force.

Alison Harden, as you've uh pointed out that even the name presumes guilt before.

Being proven innocent, I guess or whatnot.

So I I agree that that is entangled in here, and maybe a separate conversation because it involves somewhat different partners, but but obviously related.

But um, before I'm before I um punch it over to Councilman Bobby Wilson, any anything that you wanted to add, uh and anyone wanted to add right now based on what we just heard?

Maybe just for the public to have an understanding of what nuisance for our task force is because it could be construed that it's just our city police going in.

Um it is a collective uh task force of state, county, and city agencies, um, one of which is our police, um, also our permits licensing inspection, fire marshal, um, the county department of health, the county DA's office, county um probation, state liquor enforcement, I don't think I'm oh ATF.

Um yeah.

I mean, uh sometimes not all of them go all out all at once.

It depends on what they plan to investigate that night.

But um, and to your point, or other cities that call them either joint education teams or joint or uh compliance um uh compliance teams or compliance teams.

Thank you.

Councilman Wilson.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

I did want to start as I was one question, so I've not been to the bottle rocket yet.

But uh I plan to, but I do have a question.

Was it uh named after the Wes Anderson film?

No.

That's a common question.

It's named after uh an actual bottle rocket I found uh actually in an antique store in Lawrenceville.

And uh, yeah.

I love the movie, but yeah.

We think more people are going there because I think it's named after the movie or yeah, probably.

I will go there because they know the movie.

We're not gonna dispel the rumor.

All right.

Um I'm happy that you went over the news support task force and who's all involved in that because I definitely hearing all these stories, it makes me uh realize that we do not uh get all the complaints about uh what the bars are going through bars and restaurants are going through and uh uh you know I feel like I get more complaints about the power being out.

No, seriously, like you know, restaurants say how can we get the power back on?

Because like they're just like just say, not because of storm, but say they're doing you know, Duke Light's doing work.

They're like, do they know that we have 70 reservations that we're gonna have to cancel now, you know, or something like that.

But you know, that's just one example to add to all the other you know uh situations that you all are going through with these uh, you know, with everything that you described here.

Yeah, and I want to double down on, you know, all the comments uh praising you all for continuing to uh run your business.

It's difficult as it as it is as a business owner, I feel like we sh we should be giving you trophies.

Let's do it.

We tried trophy.

But I look forward to continuing this conversation, especially uh the ones that are in my district to understand more about what you're going through and how uh I could be of any help because I don't know, I guess I'm gonna go all in here and think that it's probably not that bad, you know.

Uh in terms of the the type of noise or or um environment that you're creating at the businesses, uh I'm looking at the ones that are my desk right now.

Um so I'd like to work through that and um if there's anything on the city side that you know we could change to uh make it you know easier for you all to operate because you know I there definitely are some nuisances out there.

I have them in my district.

We're working through uh one right now.

And uh but I I like I said I'm gonna go all in and think that you're probably not the nuisance that I'm talking about.

And uh, you know, I think it's some of us just need to understand that we live we we chose to live in a city, you chose to live next to an establishment that was a club or a bar, and there will be some noise.

If it gets too rowdy, we need to measure that.

We need to measure how rowdy, you know, what's rowdy.

So, uh, you know, what's too rowdy, and I think that's that's a good good time to revisit this um moving forward.

So thanks for having us this post-agenda and uh appreciate you all being here and invested in Pittsburgh.

Thanks.

Thank you.

Any responses or I'm I'm happy to ask uh one final question.

Well, really, I I want to um circle back because we covered this a little bit, and I know Alison, you you drilled into this a little bit, but um, if the city were to assume enforcement authority under its exist either existing noise ordinance or um a an amended noise ordinance if necessary, what would any of you want to see out of that framework to ensure consistent and fair and ideally proactive work?

Um, but really clear standards that you can plan around.

So when you're planning programming or when you're planning for um uh an event, whether it's a special event or it's a weekly event or it's a multiweekly event, um, that also is sensitive to the needs of neighbors without allowing one neighbor to weaponize it against you, right?

What what do you think that looks like and and if anyone has um experiences working with cities that have obtained the well that maybe that second part of the question is for Alison, but what would you all want to see?

What would you think makes sense if you haven't already heard it mentioned today or you wanted to add something additional?

Sure.

Um so I'm I would say I think you touched on some of those things transparency, consistency, proportionality.

Um I would love to see a system that requires mediation that um where it's not anonymous, or if a neighbor feels like their quality of life is being so effective, then there should be a requirement to sit down with the business or representatives or whatever organizations, community groups to get a better understanding of what can be done.

And we're talking about you know the the frequency of the of the events, the time of day, what is it exactly um that could be done, but I think it should be required from both sides and not just um um the business and just um a system that puts a lot of weight on the local community groups and the and the local officials who represent a larger portion of that um community.

Yeah, just to come or kind of add to that is you know, once again, this is like you know, removing that weaponization of these calls.

Um the businesses or or the entities that were um, you know, mentioned from Council and Personal Gross, like you know, the construction, the hospital, the grocery stores are all, you know, and making this amplified sound.

Their businesses are not in jeopardy of operating as are ours, right?

Um, so yeah, like just you know, making sure that we are moving toward, you know, positive uh reinforcement resolution, um, and really just coming back down to being those good neighbors that we claim to be.

I think another thing in that too is also the lens of education, right?

From both business and public of like understanding the the education around sound and understanding how how it works, but also you know, in the New Orleans example, it mixed with that of having um grant-based programming that can allow for businesses to be able to tap into funding if they need so they don't have to make $325,000 worth of renovations because of one neighbor.

Um that's it's been becoming a huge prohibitive factor when we have one neighbor that's weaponizing these things against us and having the guilty until proven innocent mentality.

And I think too, just lifelong Pittsburgh or just this isn't the spirit of Pittsburgh, and I'm not making a pun there, but you know, Pittsburgh is known for being good neighborly human beings, and this is not this is not Pittsburgh.

So how can we make it more Pittsburgh?

One thing that Brett, who works in my office behind me always brings up is like we've we've forgotten how to solve we we've forgotten how to talk to people and work out our problems.

And I know sometimes I know a lot of council people get people saying here, take care of this for me.

We need to teach people what they say give a person a fish or give them a fishing pole, right?

So I think we've got a mouse of cookie.

No, I'm kidding.

Um so I think we really need to, you know, teach people how to be good neighbors too, and that that's like giving them the opportunity to communicate with each other, letting them know that there is a problem that needs to be addressed.

Um but this lack of transparency doesn't allow for that.

So yeah.

Yeah, there's a neighbor I have uh on a different topic who who recently was the whole street was frustrated with um sort of lack of uh of upkeep of one house.

And this neighbor wrote to all of her neighbors and copied our office and said, and we've filed the 311 request, and there is, you know, um a court date coming up, but I also just knocked on the door with a smile on my face and said, Here's what we'd like you to do.

And you know what she did?

She did it.

She took care of her property.

And it was like the first time in five years that I've heard of a I know people do it all the time, but that I've actually been made aware of a neighbor going to a neighbor and saying, Hey, you know, as neighbor to neighbor, I'd like you to take care of your property.

And it worked.

So imagine what we can do if we if we arm neighbors with that type of skill set again to be neighborly and to it's not gonna work every time.

It's not gonna work for every person, but this certainly could be better than um than um sticking the LCE enforcement on um businesses who are trying to to make it work as a third space.

So okay, well, um are there any I don't have any questions.

I feel like we've covered a lot of ground today.

Is there anything I'll offer the same opportunity to to answer a question or to state something or to get into a topic area that we should have asked about and did end.

Any anything else from anyone here?

Go ahead.

I'll just say, like, you know, as a closing statement.

Um I think the city already does a really good job of regulating sounds.

I think that um whether it's an individual playing music in their car or their house, whether it's a leaf blower, whether it's you and a contracting business, like there are we already have regulations that touch on sound.

I think the question is is ask yourselves why do we have a regulation that touches on sound just because alcohol is being sold.

And I think that's what we were really looking for is to detach that and let the liquor control board and and LCE do what they do best and focus on the selling and the maintenance, the production of alcohol.

The city already has legislation and an enforcement protocol for sound, and we're just asking to be a part of that.

I was just gonna ask what next steps might be.

Great, thank you.

Well, uh anything else from council members who are here.

Well, one more thing.

Some of us went to a meeting with some of the music community recently.

And um I think there's a great desire from that group as well, who are you know, people that produce music or that make albums out of music that have recording studios, they're um very interested in this topic as well because they as artists need places to play and and produce their music.

So I I know there's uh a community that's not represented here.

Um and um also we don't have a well, I guess you have a restaurant, you have a restaurant license, but to I mean everybody does.

But um, but a legitimate restaurant uh industry is not met here, similar to where a restaurant.

Yeah, I mean your your licenses, but basically your brewery, right?

We certainly have food.

Okay.

I like their food.

Okay, um anyway, the I think the restaurant association and some of the, you know, more what you would see is sit down dining and even find dining that wants to have um entertainment would be supportive of this as well.

Thank you.

Well, I don't think I can say it better than um David, you just said it.

This is really about um this unequal treat treatment between a business that happens to serve alcohol and a business that doesn't, and it it really is just a policy, as my seven-year-old would say.

It just doesn't make any sense.

So it really doesn't make any sense, and that's what we're trying to find the solution to.

As for next steps, this was the purpose of this, and I probably should have started with that is to help educate um uh our council our fellow council members on some of the specifics of state law, city policy, and the opportunities that we see and the current state and the current challenges faced.

From here, you know, I think we have some opportunities to discuss amongst ourselves hopefully, you know, from my perspective, hopefully seeking an exemption for uh municipality and to be able to have our own local control over these types of businesses and find the solution that works best for us.

From there though, it is going to take a lot of tailoring to Pittsburgh.

What works in state college, what works in Erie, won't what works in some of our near neighbors, right?

Like um Bellevue and West Deer isn't gonna necessarily necessarily work for Pittsburgh, so scalpel approach rather than a sledgehammer to get it right, as you know, Councilwoman Gross mentioned, for our you know, our our owners, our establishments and um, the neighbors, so um understanding our limitations when it comes to staffing of police and enforcement agencies.

So thank you.

With that, um, we have officially exhausted the business of this post agenda, and the meeting is adjourned.