Good evening.

Thank you for attending the Historic District Commission meeting this evening.

This is meeting number 62026, Thursday, June 18th, 2026.

I'm Peter Fossilman, Chair of the HDC, and I'm joined tonight by fellow commissioner Seth Dembo, Michael Goldfinger, Anita Neil Powell, and Mercy Shengay.

Cynthia Walder Walters is our acting city attorney from the staff, and also here is uh Megan Flick, excuse me, Flick, the principal planner, Katie Gerberis, our comprehensive planning manager.

So thank you for joining us this evening.

The historic district commission meets in person, the mayor and council chambers in the city of Rockville.

The public is invited to participate virtually via WebEx.

The meetings are viewed in Rockville Channel 11 and live streamed at Rockville MD.gov forward slash Rockville.

Each each excuse me, Rockville 11.

Each meeting is also available for viewing after the meeting.

It's held at Rockville, Maryland.gov forward slash video on demand.

First items on our agenda are committee organizational reports.

Um I see that Nancy's here from Peelers Rockville.

Hi, good evening, everyone.

Um yeah, before I get started, I just wanted to say two things.

First of all, I wanted to congratulate Katie on the birth of her daughter and welcome her back to the city.

So congratulations to you.

And I didn't think I'd have this opportunity, but I see that Sheila Bashiri is in the back of the room.

And I want to take this opportunity to thank her for all the things she's done for the city and her many, many reports that she's written over the years that she was here.

And Sheila, we hope that you have a wonderful adventure as you go forward and enjoy your retirement.

So there's that.

Now for my report.

Peerless Rockville was pleased to welcome over 100 guests to our tour of Glenview Mansion in May.

Uh, this marked the 100th anniversary of the 1926 renovation of the mansion, which is Rockville's most beloved landmark.

Um it was a great tour, and I know there'll be another opportunity for people in September when the city hosts an additional event to celebrate.

Uh, we also in May opened our exhibit, Rockville 250, our American Story, a pictorial exhibit that explores how Rockville grew with the nation from its revolutionary days through the era of slavery, the fight for emancipation into the mid-century with the baby boom, suburbanization, and we became today's modern and diverse 21st 21st century city.

We hope that you will take the opportunity to see the exhibit and also join us at upcoming talks, tours, and other events as part of the 250th programming.

Um, in fact, we will be open at the Red Brick Courthouse on Saturday, June 27th from 1 to 12 to 4 as part of Montgomery County Heritage Days.

This weekend, Peerless Rockville is pleased to partner with Jerusalem Mount Pleasant United Methodist Church for their Juneteenth Fest on June 20th at 1 p.m.

for a lecture.

Uh, this is entitled How Freedom Came to Rockville, and it will explore the various paths to freedom taken by enslaved individuals, um, Rockville residents before nationwide emancipation.

It will also talk about the U.S.

colored troops from Rockville who were in Texas for the very first Juneteenth.

Um, additionally, there's a talk coming up at our next Glenview event titled The Maryland 400 Revolutionary War Soldiers and the Battle of Brooklyn.

And um, this will be given by the senior Maryland State Archivist, and we hope you'll join us there.

Thank you.

Thank you, Nancy.

Uh, just one question.

The last event that you mentioned, what date is that one?

That one is July 9th at 7 p.m.

Great.

Thank you very much for your report.

You're welcome.

Uh, next on our agenda is the Lincoln Park Historical Foundation, Commissioner Neil Powell.

Good evening.

On behalf of the Lincoln Park Historical Foundation and the Leeroy E.

Neil, Black American Research Center.

I would like to thank all who came out in support of the 135th anniversary of Lincoln Park on May 30th.

It was an awesome time sharing history and remembering the community in its fullness.

The parade included horses, historic cars, motorcycles, elected officials, and others.

The event will be shown on Channel 11 sometime in the future.

Thanks to the city, county, state, and community for continuing our history for the past 35 years.

We hosted the preservation conference on preserving black history and museums and historic places with speakers from diverse backgrounds and expertise.

It was awesome, and I learned a lot about funding opportunities available in this field from Rockville, Maryland and local black museums and black history inside of museums that were not considered black museums.

It was a wholesome experience, and we look forward to more conversations around this topic.

We will be hosting a 250th anniversary of America and Montgomery County and 100 years of Black History All Year Long event in September 2026.

And more information will be provided at the next month at next month's HDC meeting.

Thank you for the opportunity to share.

If you want to get involved or to stay in touch, send an email to Lincoln Park H I S T at AOL.com.

This concludes my report.

Thank you, Commissioner Powell.

Now it's time for public comments, open forum.

If anyone would like to come forward, uh please approach the podium.

Although I do have one person that's signed up ahead of time.

Magda Brown, who is a member of the Human Rights Commission.

Commissioner Fossman, Magda will be joining us virtually.

She's having a technical issue right now.

Um so we can kind of keep going and then I'll fight for you when she's on the journey.

Okay.

Yeah.

Thank you for letting me know that.

Anyone else here this evening or online?

Yes, please come forward.

And if you could just identify yourself, hello.

Uh my name is Hanele Quigley.

I live at 2268 Gunmore Terrace in Rockville, on the other side of uh 270.

So we're the Rockville that Rockville forgot about.

Um I'm here as the president of Rockville Cemetery, and I'm pleased to announce we have a uh big event coming out in September, and I'd like to invite all of you.

It's on a Sunday, so please put it on your calendars now.

It's Sunday, September 20th.

We are celebrating the 300th anniversary of Christ Episcopal Church at Rockville Cemetery.

We're partnering with the church and we're partnering with the Chamber of Commerce.

It's listed on the Chamber of Commerce's calendar of events at www.rockvillechamber.org.

And I hope to see all of you there.

We're gonna have a church service for the Sunday.

Uh it's gonna be an outdoor event.

We're gonna have several costumed reenactors of people buried at Rockville Cemetery to uh give the public a little flavor of uh the kind of people who were buried at Rockville Cemetery and a little bit about local history, and it's a good opportunity to see the cemetery in a different way.

I'm gonna be there, and I hope you'll be there too.

Thank you.

Thank you very much for sharing that.

Um you won two points with me.

The first one is my birthday since the second one is I'm an episcopalian, so um I appreciate that information.

Anyone else this evening, uh, either here with us or online wishing to speak Commissioner Faussman, we do have Magda Brown who has joined us virtually.

She had signed up in advance.

Okay, thank you, Katie.

Miss Brown, please.

You may be on mute, Miss Brown.

There you go.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Good evening.

It's uh a pleasure and honor to be here tonight with everyone.

I am here on behalf of the human rights uh commission of the city of Rockville, and I look forward to looking for any ways that we can collaborate.

So thank you so much.

Appreciate you.

Thank you.

Thank you for speaking.

Anyone else this evening?

Anyone online staff?

Okay, thank you very much.

Okay, next on the agenda are there comments from the HCC or staff.

Any of the commissioners have any comments this evening?

No.

I have a question.

It may come under all business, but I want to talk about the preservation conference.

So I don't know at what point I should bring that up.

I think now it's fine.

Okay.

So okay, so I know that we have talked previously about having a preservation conference.

What I would like to do is to plan to have the historic of the preservation conference in November.

And I would like to serve on that commission on that committee, and I would ask if um Commissioner Michael Goldstein would like to serve with me.

And we would plan the preservation conference.

Are you putting the commissioner on the spot?

No, um I would be pleased to I mean goes the breaker, I'm sorry.

I'd be pleased to join you in putting this together.

Okay.

And when you say November, you mean November of 2026.

Of 2026.

And we sort of had a bit of a failure for earlier this year in May.

So I'm glad to hear that.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Um and I'd also be happy to help out.

Oh, okay.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Any other commission any of the commissioners have any other comments?

Do we have dates for the Lumba?

No.

Oh, yeah, the thing.

No, we do not because we really haven't discussed them.

But we would definitely have one for our next meeting.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And a place.

In a place.

Staff, any comments this evening?

Yes, we have a handful of comments for everyone.

The first is that this upcoming Tuesday, June 23rd at 4 30 p.m.

Um, is a small event to unveil a historic marker at the site of the Twinbrook Pool.

Um, anyone from the general public and obviously commissioners are welcome to attend that event.

There's no RSVP needed.

Um, you're welcome to just show up on the day of the event if you would like to participate.

Um I anticipate it would be a relatively short um program that we have planned for that.

The other staff comment that we have has already a little bit been discussed, um, but I do want to recognize Michela Bashiri.

She has served as a preservation planner here for the city of Rockfell for the last 12 years.

Um, and effective next week, she is entering the life of leisure and retiring from public service.

So we want to thank Sheila for her many, many years of hard work serving this commission and this city and let her know that we're gonna miss her.

And we wish she would change her mind.

But um, we're gonna celebrate the fact that she has earned uh this great next phase of her life.

And um, thank you very much.

If I may add to that, um Sheila, we very much appreciate all the work that you put in, and the commissioners have a gift for you.

Um you're welcome to open it now or wait to get home, but it is something that we um had special done for you, so we appreciate all of your efforts.

So we're going down the front.

Sheila, are you in a picture?

Okay, she'll be on the call.

Commissioners, please come down.

Okay, well, Sheila, yeah.

There we go.

Got it.

Thank you all.

Thank you so much.

And Katie, thank you for helping me conspire when Sheila would be here and get this together.

Appreciate that.

Yes.

Okay.

Any other comments from the staff?

Okay, thank you.

Uh next on the agenda are our consent items.

Um, the first one is approval of the minutes from last month on the 21st.

May I have a motion?

I move that we approve the minutes of the May um historic district commission meeting.

May I have a second?

Second.

Any discussion.

All in favor?

Thank you very much.

Next are certificates of approval.

The first one is 2026 354 COA.

The applicant is actually our own recreation and parks department.

Uh 603 Ed Edston Drive, Ed Munston Drive, thank you.

Um, and this is about a boxwood feature at the Glenview Mansion.

Okay, thank you.

Um we do have a staff report on file.

So this is case 2026 354 COA for a certificate of approval at 603 Edmondson Drive, which is the historic Glenview Mansion property.

Uh and this is a certificate of approval for the removal of boxwoods.

So we have the aerial images here showing the Glenview Mansion and the surrounding grounds.

Um delay.

So we have an image on the left here showing the boxwoods previously in good health.

As you can see, they were in the front of the mansion there.

And on the right is uh the boxwoods in current day, and as you can see, they are dying or already dead.

So the application is for the removal of approximately 20 mature boxwoods and to replace with tall fescue blend sod, um which will have a mature height of three to four inches.

And this is the plan view showing again that um boxwood feature at the front of the mansion there.

And the staff recommendation is finding that the proposal to remove a declining box would feature at the front of the Glenview Mansion and replace with Tall FSQ blend sod meets the Secretary of the Interior standards for rehabilitation number two and technical guide for alterations number seven, landscaping and trees.

Staff recommends approval.

Here are your motions.

Thank you, Megan.

Thank you.

Commissioners have any comments.

Anyone here this evening online or with us that would like to make a comment?

I may have a motion.

Okay, I move the commission approve of approval application 2026-356.

The C O E 63 Edmund Edmonton Drive.

The walk means it's a good thing of the interior stands or rehabilitation.

Number two on technical guide number seven.

Landscaping on trees.

May I have a second?

Commissioner Shanghai, can we interrupt here?

Um, I think you misspoke with the number on the um application.

If you can redo the motion to make sure we have the proper number just to make sure that we are moving the correct application.

I move the commission approves that if you have approval application 2026-354-COE at 603 Edmondson Drive.

They walk means the three of the interior standards of rehabilitation.

Number two on technical guide number seven, landscaping on trees.

We have a second.

Thank you.

Any further discussion?

All in favor.

Thank you.

Uh, next on our agenda is for the same property and same applicant, our recreations and parks department, recreation and parks department.

This is to plant 30 trees.

Okay, and again, the staff report is on file.

This is case 2026 358 COA at 603 Edmondson Drive.

Again at the historic Glenview Mansion, and this is a certificate of approval for a new tree screen, a total of 30 new trees.

It would be 17 American Hollies and 13 red buds.

So again, we have the aerial images showing the Glenview Mansion and property.

And then the left image here is the view of the front mall, and the right image shows the plan view, which shows the proposed planting area on the northwestern side of the mansion.

And again, it would be 30 new trees.

Uh 17 American Hollies and 13 red buds.

And the staff recommendation is finding that the proposal to plant 17 American Hollies and 13 red buds as a landscaping screen meets the Secretary of the Interior standards for rehabilitation number two and technical guide for alterations number seven, landscaping and trees.

Staff recommends approval.

Here are your motions.

Thank you.

Any of the commissioners have any comments.

Okay.

May I have a motion?

Okay.

Yeah, I move the commission approved certificate of approval application 2026-358-COA at 603 Edmondson Drive.

The work meets the Secretary of the Interior's Standards for Rehabilitation number two and technical guide number seven, landscaping and trees.

May I have a second?

A second.

Any further discussion?

All in favor.

Okay, next on the agenda is evaluation of significance.

Our first is 2026 331 EOS.

The applicant is Jason Eukis with Pavilion Real Estate.

And this is for 24 Martins Lane.

Staff, do we have a report?

Yes, we do.

Okay.

This is case 2026 331 EOS at 24 Martins Lane.

And it is an evaluation of significance for the purpose of demolition.

On your screen, you will see an aerial image with a red pin showing the property.

It is an internal lot.

It doesn't have direct frontage on Martins Lane, but the legal lot line has a pipe stem extending out with Martin's Lane frontage.

And vehicle access is via the drive alley to the west of the home.

So this slide is showing some historic maps.

The historic Hayti community is one of the earliest black communities in Rockville.

It was established by Samuel Martin and it traces back to formerly enslaved people on the Bell property.

These lands were actually deeded from the Bell family.

So the image on the left is showing the Hayti Martins Lane Historic District.

Other parts of this site are designated, but this specific property is not.

And the map on the right is from 1916, and it shows the three distinct geographic areas of the Martins Lane District.

So that includes Samuel Martin's estate, Bell Subdivision, and then the Bell parcels.

And then there's also a modern development on McLean Court.

So this image is showing the original Ross Powell Crutchfield homestead, which was from 1870 through 1988.

And the property is outlined here in red.

Just want to note here that the homestead remained in the same family and its descendants for several generations until 2023 when the property was sold.

So this home is commonly referred to as the Powell Crutchfield House.

And this is an older photo showing the front of the home in 1988.

And this is an additional photo from 1988 showing the rear of the home.

The home is actually enlarged later on in the 1920s with an L-shaped kitchen wing on the rear of the home, which you can see here.

Okay, so getting into the current condition of the home, these photos were taken in April of this year.

So this is the front of the home.

As you can see, it is in severe disrepair.

The front screened porch, the door is falling off.

There's ivy growing on the bottom, and on the right side here.

Again, showing deteriorating siding and ivy growing.

I think there's also a window missing at the top here.

And then again, we have the rear of the home, and this is where you can see the roof is in severe disrepair.

There's a couple holes where the roof has collapsed.

And again, deteriorating siding and a couple missing windows.

And then this is the last elevation of the house.

So again, you can see the roof collapsing here.

Um a missing window, and then again, just the deteriorating siding.

So the photos on the left show again the damage to the interior of the home.

There is extensive damage to the structure, structural features like the stairs, the ceiling, and walls.

And then on the bottom left, there you can see the big holes in the roof.

And the images on the right just show further damage inside the home.

And I believe these are from 2022, which is when the structural report was completed.

Before I read the staff recommendation, I do just want to note and acknowledge the clear historic and cultural significance of this property.

It does meet several historic significance criteria.

So I'm just going to go ahead and go through those.

A, it represents the development, heritage, or cultural characteristics of the city.

B, it's the site of an important event in Roxbell's history.

C, it's identified with a person or group of persons who influence the city's history.

And D, it exemplifies the cultural, economic, industrial, social, political, archaeological, or historical heritage of the city.

It also meets architectural design and landscape criteria A, which means that it embodies distinctive characteristics of a tight period or method of construction.

So again, just to acknowledge that the structure does meet certain designation criteria, um, but is considered uh uninhabitable.

So, staff recommendation read out is finding that although the property at 24 Martins Lane meets historic significance criteria A, B, C and D, and architectural design and landscape criteria A, the property is in extreme disrepair, as evidenced by the structural report.

And as such, staff recommends against historic designation due to the severe neglect of the structure and its lack of integrity.

And that's it.

Here are your motions.

Thank you, Megan.

Thank you.

May not be um in our purview this evening, but so I'll make this a personal comment.

I think this is a shame.

Um I think this is tragic.

It's an example of where a nice property could have been preserved.

I don't know what happened since 1988 going forward.

Um it looks like the first pictures after 1988, I believe are 2022.

Um shame on all of us for letting this happen.

Um, and I'm thinking that maybe this is a project that the HCC might want to get behind in terms of not this property, but in general of historic properties or properties that could be possibly historic to maybe work with the owners to preserve them.

Um, this is not the kind of thing I'd like to see in the city of Rockville.

Um, and um I'm done.

But I appreciate the thorough report.

Commissioners, any comments?

I have a comment.

Is the owners here owner the property?

Don't we need to hear from you?

Yes, but I thought I'd let the commissioners go first, and then we could hear from folks that want to speak.

Okay.

Well, my question is not directly I'm gonna be addressed to the um owner.

Okay.

Uh commissioners, any comments before we okay.

Um, we have a we'll uh the owner certainly should come forward first, and then we have a number of people that signed up to speak this evening.

Um, so if the owner would like to speak, please do come forward.

Good evening, guys.

Is it uh is there an opportunity for me to wait to let them speak first and then come back?

Sure, absolutely.

I appreciate it.

Thank you so much.

Okay, so um, as I mentioned, we have a list of folks that would like to speak tonight.

Uh the first one in no special order is Nicole Crutchfield.

We can speak to Gabin.

Nicole is not here.

Okay.

I'm a sister and my mother's here.

Okay.

There are a number of members uh from your family.

I've got Nicole, Brenda, Gretchen, uh Wellington, uh, La Shane, and Charlotte.

Oh, I'm sorry, and I have an Elaine as well.

I'm not sure if some of them are joining us online this evening.

Okay, so everyone that would like to speak is here, so you're welcome to come up individually or in as a group.

Okay.

Do I need to seat my name?

Yes, please.

Okay.

My name is LaShane Cretchfield.

I live at 20 Martins Lane.

And I would like to say that I'm urging the commission to recognize the deep historical and significant cultural significance of the home at 24 Martins Lane, a property that has stand as one of the last remaining physical testaments to the African American community that has shaped Lincoln Park, Middle Lane, and neighborhoods from that century.

The home is not simply an aging structure, but it's a cornerstone of the Cretchfields family legacy.

A family whose roots in Rockville runs generations deep.

And within these walls, the Crutchfields build a lifetime for African American families, they face segregation, redlining, and limited access to housing.

Their home was a place of safety, dignity, and belonging, and a place where children were raised, traditions were passed on, and community bonds were strengthened.

The Crutchville family community contributed to the social, cultural, and civic life of Rockville.

Their presence on Martin Lane is part of the history of the black resilience in the city, a story that's already fragile and due to decades of displacement, redevelop redevelopment, and erasure of historicals and black neighborhoods.

Demolishing 24 Martins Lane would not only remove a building, but it would raise it, but it would erase an irreplaceable link to Rockville's African American heritage.

Once gone, this history cannot be rebuilt, replicated, or recovered.

Preserving this home honors the Crutchville families that borders Martins Lane community and the generations who fought to create a place for themselves in a city that not always welcomed them.

I respectfully ask the commission to protect this home and ensure the legacy of the Crutchville family, the history of Rockville's black community that remains visible, valued, and persevere for future generations.

Thank you.

Thank you very much for your comments.

Anyone else from the Crutchfield, please come forward if you could identify yourself.

Good evening.

My name's Wellington Crutchfield Jr.

I'm the seventh generation of the Crutchfields.

I need to make a correction real quick is that the original property is the property that I lived in at 22 Martins Lane.

This property was built by my great uncles later after they grew up.

So the information that you have about this being the original Ross Powell is incorrect.

It's a home that I live in at 22 Martins Lane.

That is the original property for when my ancestors and were released as slaves and bought the property.

This property was later built afterwards.

So if you look at the correct map of the property, you can see that our house that I currently live in was the original home and all the properties that were surrounding it.

As I stated before, I am this job of the seventh generation living this property I have now.

The property next door housed my uncles, my great uncles, and my grandparents, and also back then black educators came up from the South to get a job, and my grandparents housed, and my grandparents housed those educators that worked at Rock Terrace, that worked at Lincoln, that had the opportunity to continue the growth of the black families in our area.

Haiti, as they call it, which originally would mean Haiti, but because some of the slaves could not speak it properly, that's how we got Hayti, has a strong, strong sense of community in Rockville.

Not only do we have these two properties, but we have the historical grave site, which is a half a block down the road.

Destroying this piece of property would be very detrimental to the community.

Yes, I understand it is very dilapidated and it's bad, but even if we could kick one wall or something to that effect.

But I see the blood, sweat, and tears of the ancestors of the slaves that built this piece of property, along with the property that we live in right now.

So I look back and I see my grandparents, I see my great-grandparents, I see the preachers and the teachers and the architects who came up from the south to teach here, the laid land here.

I see all that with this going away, all that's being wiped away.

Not only that being like the way, we also have the historical graveyard, which is a piece that's tied into this property as well.

So I hope you would really think about this and think about the history that we have and what it means to my family, the Ross Prater PAL, Crutchfield.

We run very deep in this area.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

Crutchfield.

Any other members of the Crutchfield family.

Uh next.

Uh I've got a Kelly Faison.

She's not on.

She's not.

Okay.

Um next, my glasses on.

Um next is Hannah Lor Quigley.

I'm going to be struggling with my glasses too.

Good evening, HCC Commissioners.

My name is Hannah Lorquel, and I'm from Rockville.

I lived in Glenora Hills since 1976.

And remember the bicentennial of that year, when Rockville was an all-American city and starting to care a lot about creating and maintaining its historic districts.

And my relatives are from Rockville for the last six generations.

Our family has owned property in Rockville since 1805.

I'm very much a local girl.

It was with great pleasure that I read the city staff report on 24 Martins Lane that agreed with the assessment of others in the Rockville's historic community that the property at 24 Martins Lane met so many of the Department of Interior's historic guidelines.

This is the most long report of historical significance.

I had read from this office, despite glaring details, uh, like the date on page 104 of the agenda that says the property was conveyed to Flora Powell in 1983.

Um Flora Powell died in 1945 and was buried in historic Hayti Cemetery.

The date should be 1893, and it should be corrected for the record.

I wanted to tell you about what's been going on in Historic Hayti.

The Hayti Cemetery Association was actually created right here in City Hall in 2017 when Coach Warren G.

Crutchfield and his sister Elaine sat down and we signed the Articles of Incorporation, which was the start of the Historic Association here one night after hours at 10 p.m.

in the room just over there.

The brother and sister trustees selected the first board of directors, many of whom are here tonight in person and on this call tonight.

This family got together to defend its birthrights as another sixth-generation Rockville family and worked hard for their legacy to keep Hayti's history and land intact and safe from developers.

For its effort, the family won a hard-fought court case on March 5th, 2020 to put the Haytai Cemetery land in the name of the nonprofit Hayti Cemetery Association.

They were awarded significant accolades for their efforts, including an award from Montgomery Preservation Inc., and then the highest award that the state of Maryland has to offer, the Maryland Historical Trust Preservation Partnerships Award.

I'm very perplexed that the City Staff for Preservation is working against historical designation of 24 Martins Lane because of the condition reported by the developer.

This is out of scope for this office.

You have the opportunity to follow your own guidelines and find this property historically significant.

Its significance should not be considered inconvenient because of its disrepair.

You have people who want to save it.

The family wants it saved.

The historic community wants it saved.

And I can't even remember the last time I've seen the city staff report so aligned with Peerless Rockville regarding historical significance.

Incredible.

This is Rockville history and it's important.

That's what I came here to say.

Thank you very much.

Thank you for your comments and the corrections of the record.

Staff, I see that Mr.

Russell signed up, but we're not.

Did we ever hear back from him?

We did not hear back from him.

No, he was signed up for the May meeting, um, but we did not hear back when we inquired about this meeting.

Okay, thank you for that.

Um sign ups from earlier this evening.

We have Nancy Picard from Peelers Rockville.

Good evening again, Chair Fosselman and members of the commission.

I'm Nancy Picard, Executive Director for Peerless Rockville.

I'm hoping I have five minutes of an organization.

Is that still a thing?

Okay, thank you.

Um, as you know, Peerless Rockville has a 50-year-plus history of researching, survey, surveying and evaluating properties in the Rockville community.

And thus, we have decades of significant expertise on historical periods, patterns of development, and other factors that are imperative for the evaluation of historic properties.

Although we agree that the condition of the current structure at 24 Martins Lane is severely deteriorated, um, and also that its preservation may be beyond that of a classic historic rehabilitation.

We do not agree that the recent years of neglect of the structure prohibits this entire property from being zoned historic.

Furthermore, we agree with the staff findings that the property at 24 Martins Lane meets the city's historic significant criteria, A, B, C, and D, as well as architectural design and landscape criteria A.

The city's findings for this property generally generally reflect that it is representative of the development, heritage, and cultural characteristics of the city.

In particular, its relevance and strong importance to the nascent black community known as Hayti, which grew on the edge of Rockville and provided a place for the recently enslaved and their immediate descendants to live, love, learn, and enjoy the right of a secure home, land ownership, and economic stability that had been so cruelly withheld from them before.

The property is part of a generational enclave of the Ross Powell Crutchfield family in 1976 when the Powell Crutchfield House was evaluated for the Maryland Inventory of Historic Properties.

It was described as a well-preserved example of a late 19th-century homestead house.

Regretfully, we can all see that during the past 20 plus years, the property has not been maintained.

It is now deteriorating and has lost some degree of his historic integrity.

However, whether this home is a candidate for a historical restoration or must be demolished, should not detract from your review this evening.

You are tasked with deciding whether the property retains enough historic significance to the city and to its residents to be rezoned with a historic overlay.

The particular parcel and the adjacent parcels are known to have been deeded from Margaret Bell of the Bell Dawson House and Farm to individual form individuals formerly held in slavery.

The parcels of land were originally conveyed with restrictions, notably unique to newly freed individuals.

As noted in the staff report, the property was conveyed originally to Flora Ross Powell and her husband Adam Powell.

It is likely that Flora, who was born in 1856, was herself enslaved by the Bells as a child.

We know that the Bell family sold parcels of land to near newly freed peoples and other black families, and it is here in Hayti that several generations of the Ross, Wood and Smith families remained for many years.

They grew their families and established a recognizable black kinship community.

From its late 19th century beginning and up until today, this small but significant community has stood as a testament to the tenacity of the early owners and the desire for a better future for their children.

For the people who founded the Haytai community, owning land was a chance for prosperity, the possibility of a stable future for their descendants and status.

Martins Lane and Haytai continues to be a source of pride and an example of resourcefulness for those who live here today.

The Haytai Martins Lane community was researched and surveyed in the late 1980s and documented in a Maryland Inventory of Historic Properties form, noted as a significant historic resource resource.

Sorry.

I'm sorry, I'm very hoarse today, which clearly exemplified the cultural, social, and economic heritage of Rockfield's early Black community.

Although there is not currently a contiguous local Hayti Martins Lane Historic District in Rockville, Peerless would argue that this property would clearly fit the criteria to be included with surrounding properties into a larger recognized district.

In fact, the Maryland Historical Trust deemed Hayti Martins Lane to be a significant resource, and in 2003 recognized it as eligible for the National Register of Historic Places under historic criteria A and C, demonstrating its association with historic events as land owned by former enslaved persons and for the architectural significance of its vernacular architecture.

Thank you for listening.

Thank you, Nancy.

Appreciate your comments.

Good evening, Commissioners.

As you said, my name is Kevin Zeletsk.

I live at 101 North Street.

I'll speak to you tonight a little bit as a little bit more of an outsider.

My backyard abuts the property that's in question tonight, and also the backyards of multiple of the uh of the Crutchfield families' backyards as well, who, as we all know, you know are descended from uh from slaves formerly belonged to Margaret Bell, um, and then who settled in these very properties in the Hata community once they were freed.

Um, I've lived there for almost 25 years.

Um, I've had the opportunity over that time to get to know you know many of the long-term residents of the Haythai community.

Um I had the opportunity to befriend them.

Um sadly, you know, many of the patriarchs of that Hayti community um are now passing away, and you know, and along with them the history of that community.

I'm talking about people like uh George Snowden of the Snowden funeral home.

Um hasn't passed away, but but Selden Higgins, um, who's now 100 years old and uh and unfortunately now is is uh rehabilitating from an injury uh in a nursing home, and then of course, uh Warren Crutchfield, um, who was the uh the uh the patriarch of the of the Crutchfield family.

Over the years, I've spoken to Mr.

Crutchfield, our backyards, you know, uh right uh against each other many, many times.

Um, he proudly spoke to me often of his family, of the history of his family, uh specifically uh of his pride in those properties, you know, on Martin's Lane.

I've walked with him through Hayti Cemetery, you know, where he probably showed me where his grandparents were buried and all of his ancestors.

Um most significantly, though, I've had the opportunity over that quarter of a century to watch the Crutchfield family celebrate countless family reunions, holidays, you know, on this very property you know that we're talking about, as they have no doubt done for the last you know 150 years.

Um I don't think it would be an exaggeration to say that you know, to Warren Crutchfield, and obviously now to the Crutchfield family, you know, that these properties are sacred ground, um, no less sacred than the property of the Heytai Cemetery.

The uh the precious and fragile history of our freed black population, you know, is told in in Rockville's oldest black kinship communities like Hayti.

Um these communities and the history of these communities is no less significant, and I would in fact argue that they complement and complete the story of what we would say are our signature and and much better preserved um historic sites, things like the Glenview Mansion, um Rose Hill Manor, and certainly places like Bell Dawson House that these histories you know directly you know attach.

You you you can't have the full story of the history of Rockville, you know, one without the other.

Umfortunately, places like 22 Bartons Lane, you know, are rapidly being lost, whether it's due to sale or to dilapidation, largely because the families that traditionally own them don't come from means, right?

These aren't families like the people you know who who own uh you know Glenview Mansion, right?

Um so they they don't always have the option of keeping these properties uh up and maintained.

Uh we are incredibly fortunate, I think, as a city, that we still have pieces of history like this intact, you know, through the the homes that that are in these areas, the land that are in these areas, and and amazingly enough, through the families.

I mean, we talk about a historic kinship community, but this isn't history like it's something in the past.

This is living history.

These families still exist, they still have this kinship community, and these properties and the land that connects you know these properties is very integral, you know, to that kinship, that living, breathing kinship community that still exists today.

Um I would also argue that these places aren't just a piece of Rockville history.

This is really a piece of American history.

You know, as we go to celebrate the 250th you know year uh uh of our country, you know, that the history of our our free freed black slaves and places like this in Rockville really belong to the entire country, and it's really our responsibility and our duty as a city to try to preserve those for everyone in the country.

You know, but it's important to note that you know, once these places are gone, they're gone forever, and you know, we will we will never have them back.

Um I I'm not an expert on on historic district zoning.

I think I I echo a lot of what Nancy said, which is you know, I think that Rockville should at a minimum consider creating you know a multi-site historic district.

Obviously, uh 22 Martins Lane is already designated historic.

I think they should include 22 Martins Lade in that Hey Tai Cemetery, you know, and other historic properties that exist in that area.

Um and other folk, and as other folks have said, it's not just the physical property of the home itself, but the entire entire property and the land that should be designated as historic.

I think even if every timber on that house needs to be replaced, um, the location of the house where it sits in relation to to 20 to 22 Martins Lane, the context of the home and the land and in relation to the entire community, it's vital to preserving the history and the overall character, you know, of the neighborhood.

Um, you know, there are precedents for designating properties historic even in the absence of structures.

Chestnut Lodge is a perfect example, you know, after after it burnt down.

Um these types of things have been talked about, um, and I know you you you um expressed you know your sadness over you know how the this hasn't been addressed.

These things have been talked about since the 1980s.

I sent for the record um, I think it came to you guys by email, but multiple articles um, you know, since since the 1980s that have discussed this community, the families in this community, the need to preserve you know the history there.

Hopefully you've had a chance to review some of those.

Um in that note, I just want to follow with you know uh one quote from Warren Crutchfield, you know, from the Washington Post in an article about him and his family, and this was back in August of 2000.

And he simply said, the generation behind us told us this is your forefathers' land.

It's yours to take care of.

That's something we would like to instill in the next generation.

So hopefully, with those words from uh from Warren Crutchfield, um, we can uh we can instill that in our city um and protect these lands for our next generation.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

Zoletsky, and thank you for sharing that information that you sent into the staff.

Uh next on our list is Mary Newton.

Good evening, Chair and members of the commission.

It's nice to see you, Ms.

Faum.

My name is Bridget Donald Newton.

I am a 46-year resident of the city of Rockville.

A newbie to some people, old timer to me.

Um, and chair, I want to start with commenting on what you said.

Um, and Mr.

Zeletsky mentioned it as well.

I think that that could be the next overture for the HDC, uh, working in tandem with Peerless.

I think we do need to have some sort of a mechanism to support owners of historic homes.

Um, Kevin said it very well.

The reason homes fall into disrepair is because people don't always have the means to keep them up.

And in this case, I'm sure it comes from centuries of not having the ability to buy where you wanted to buy, to have the means to pass money through generations on and on.

And I think that that's something that we need to reckon with, and we can make a difference and make that change.

So I want to thank you for bringing that up and support it in any way I can.

Um, I am here to uh respectfully request that you deny the staff recommendation and that you do designate this property.

Um, as Kevin mentioned, Chestnut Lodge, I lived through that as the mayor, um was designated even after by benign neglect, Chestnut Lodge burned.

Um I think there are many, many things we can do in this city, and you know, I've said for years we are a city of neighborhoods.

We are a city of the people who built this city, and among those people are the former enslaved African American people.

They're part of us, and we need to acknowledge that and maybe make amends in ways for things that we didn't take care of and things that we didn't do.

And this would be one of the ways we could start that process.

Um, it is the country's 250th birthday, it's Rockville's 150th coming up.

I think there are things that we need to start doing going forward to really show that we're gonna walk the walk.

There is no better time than right now to stand up for people.

Uh we're seeing it all over history is being erased.

And just today there was another announcement about something about our African American history that is being erased.

So this is a time we can do the right thing.

And I would respectfully urge all of you to vote to designate this property historic.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mayor Newton.

Okay, that is the end of the list of people that have signed up ahead of time.

If anyone's here this evening in the audience or joining us online, if you would like to speak, please uh let us know.

I don't see anyone do staff, no.

Okay.

So that concludes our public testimony.

Um commissioners.

The owner.

Oh, I'm sorry, forgive me.

Please, if you'd like to come forward and make official comments.

Good evening, everybody.

Good evening, Chair and members of the commission.

My name is Jason Ekis.

I am the uh owner of Pavilion Real Estate, and I'm appearing on behalf of the owner in our HQLLC on the evaluation of significance for 24 Martins Lane.

Um, before anything else, I want to be clear about this prop what this property represents.

This is part of the Hey Tai, uh, one of the oldest African American communities in Rockville.

And this ground was home to the Ross Powell and Crutchfield family for more than a century, beginning with Flora Ross and Adam Powell in the 1880s.

In the West End that Samuel Martin and families like theirs built.

We do not take that history lightly, and nothing we ask tonight is meant to diminish that.

That history is real and it deserves to be honored.

Part of your submission this evening of our application is a structural engineers report performed by Dr.

Yaya Ali Badi, PE, who examined the building and concluded that it cannot be repaired or restored.

That most of its structural members have collapsed or rotted, and that it is no longer safe to enter.

That report is already in the record before you.

When the owner acquired this property, it was standing open and unsecured.

Anyone could walk in off the street.

It was a hazard the day it was taken on, and it remains one.

When a building has failed, this completely designating it, it does not preserve history.

It preserves a danger.

The history of this family and this community does not live in rotted joist and fallen in a fallen roof.

It lives in the record and in the memory of the people who carry it.

That is why the staff report recommends against designation, and we respect respectfully ask the commission to adopt that recommendation.

Designation would not save this building.

Thank you for your time and thank you for protecting Rockville's history.

Thank you very much, and forgive me again for uh forgetting you.

It wasn't on purpose.

I appreciate it.

No problem.

Um anyone else uh this evening wishing to speak?

No one online, great, thank you.

Uh commissioners, any comments?

You can go ahead.

Okay.

Um yeah, so I've been sitting here putting my thoughts together, listening to all the um noble words that have come forth.

Um couple of questions come to mind.

Um where was the He Thai community in the last three or four decades when this house was vacant?

Uh I drive past that community many times.

Uh it's it's a marvel that it's um uh it's something that the community can be proud of in in general, um, especially given the the um you know the the history of the hardships that the that the people had to endure uh and yet they created this wonderful community with the exception of this house.

Um why was it allowed to deteriorate to this extent?

I don't understand that.

If if the community feels that sort of sense of pride, then they should have done something well before this tonight's meeting.

Um and so um that's that's one concern I have.

Um the other one is um uh were you to restore it um from the report and from the pictures and everything.

Uh you're looking at a complete demolition anyway and a rebuilding.

If it's rebuilt, none of the materials are original.

And so I would actually I would ask Cindy Walters um if that um, but I believe that no longer would qualify it as a historic structure.

Is that correct?

Um Katie, uh, if you rebuild something.

So um I don't see what the point is for um designating this as historic to just sit there and rot or tear it down and replace it with something which is not historic.

Um it's a danger to the community, it's an eyesore.

Um I would think the community would rather have something that uh speaks highly of the community rather than something that's that's that's an eye and actually to be honest.

Um hundreds of times I've driven past there.

I never knew it was back there because it's set way back from the street.

Um, but I did the other day stop and actually say, Oh, yeah, there it is.

Um if I was in that community, I don't think I would want that in my neighborhood.

Um, you know, and despite the historic significance of it, I know it's historic, and there's a lot of history behind it, but it was allowed to deteriorate, which brings up another um another issue that I think I'd like to talk about before this the meeting concludes, which is um uh demolition by neglect, and I think we need to uh as a commission and as a city, we need to address that, but I I'll put that off until maybe later uh in this meeting.

So that's what I have to say.

Um I I think it's um it's sad that it was allowed to get to this point.

Um I think maybe the community has some things to answer for that.

Uh, if what you say is is the um uh the spirit of this community, I think it's lacking in this particular building um that you allowed this to happen.

Um the other houses around there are just wonderfully maintained, and and it's uh uh it's a a tribute to the community that that uh um you know that that that is the the that is the case with this one exception.

So um that's what I have to say.

Thank you, Commissioner Staff.

I have a question of clarification before the other commissioners go forward.

Is the HCC looking at the designation of just that structure?

Or is the HEC looking at the designation of the property?

It would be the property.

The designation follows the parcel.

Okay, thank you for clarifying that.

Any other comments from the commission, Commissioner Powell?

I know you you had one.

You have several, okay.

You are absolutely correct.

Just one moment.

Of course.

Okay, so excuse me, my questions are to the applicant.

When you purchase a property, were you aware of the family's family history, kinship, community, and its historic significance in the city?

And as staff indicated, it does meet the criteria, historic significant criteria, A, B, C, and D.

Could you please come to the holding?

Um, good evening, Commissioner.

Um, unfortunately, I can't speak to that because I wasn't the purchaser.

This was a property that went through a foreclosure and an auction and reverted back to the lender.

So I don't I couldn't tell you.

I I would assume not.

Okay.

But that's just an assumption and not a fact.

Okay.

So you're here speaking on behalf of the owner, correct?

Okay, so you may not be able to answer some of these questions, but I'm gonna ask them anyway.

I hope so.

I'll answer what I can.

Thank you very much.

You're asking to have it demolished based on the structure of the house, because you do not want to restore it due to the amount of work that is required.

Is that a question?

Yeah, that is a question.

You're asking to have it demolished because it costs too much to it has nothing to do with cost.

Okay.

That's all I can really speak to.

It there's no there's nothing beyond.

We know that property is unsafe.

We can't repair or restore it.

So the only other thing is to demolish it.

So you're asking about having it demolish based on the structure of the house.

Based on the engineers report, correct.

Yes.

Can I not because of the I'm used to hard work.

I'm used to big jobs, I'm used to complex jobs.

But when I when the vessel isn't worth or can't be saved, then there's we can try to short it up as best we can.

It's not going to, it's it's not gonna live on as it should.

It's just gonna keep getting worse, no matter what we do to it.

Does that make sense?

Okay.

If the demil the demolition is approved, would you be willing to place a historical marker on the property?

Um I can't speak for the owner directly about that, but I don't see why not.

Okay.

I don't know anyway.

So um because there is, and I'm sorry to interrupt.

There is the marker on 24 Martins Lane, or um on Martin's Lane that has the hey type signage, but I think it would be great to have something on the property as well.

That's a different sign.

You're talking about the 2022, correct?

Yeah, that's that's a different sign up.

I'm not talking about that sign, I'm talking about where the house currently is located to have a historical marker placed there, identify that particular home on 24.

You don't know how to answer?

Okay.

I don't personally, I don't see why not.

Like I think it would be a fantastic tribute to what's there.

That makes sense.

Okay, what's been there for decades?

What's been there?

Yes, correct.

Okay.

Perhaps a cornerstone from what we can pull out from.

So have you ever heard of a company called Second Chance?

Yes.

I love Second Chance.

It's in Civil Springs.

I think it's an awesome company.

And anything that we could save, bringing them in that can be reused, it's interesting, and I don't mean to get off track.

In the District of Columbia, our capital, Washington, DC.

Anything more than 50 years old is considered historic.

Well, I'm 56 years old.

And that kills me every time I walk there.

Now, a couple of years ago, I was in Portugal.

And Portugal has set up what I think is incredible.

They set up this library where if a building is in such disrepair as 24 Martins Lane, you can actually take those materials down and they bank them in off site someplace for other generations to come and they actually give those materials to those generations to use as materials incorporated in building new homes.

And I discussed that with Washington, DC, and they were like, no, that's a horrible idea.

We would never want to do that.

But I think it's a great idea for the city of Rockville as well for some of these properties that if we can capture some of the materials, have them reclaimed and use elsewhere, or incorporated in a new structure.

Um I think that really kind of tributes what was once there and how those communities came and evolved.

You know, growing up in Detroit, there was a lot of that as well.

We took a lot of the scraps basically and built new structures out of them.

And I think it's a great tribute to what it could happen to a lot of neighborhoods, not just keeping dilapidated homes that you can't restore and you can't rebuild.

Um and at some point taking those materials and kind of moving on them forward.

So yes.

Okay.

Okay.

So in its place, if the m demolition is approved, and I already know the answer when I'm answering the question.

Sure.

Were you planning to rebuild the house in the same or similar structure to really keep the living history alive, especially as we celebrate the history of the city and we call ourselves all Americans?

I can't speak to that as because I haven't spoken to the owner about what comes next.

Um can you repeat the first part of your question?

I said if it's demolished, if the demolition is approved, do you plan to you plan to rebuild the house?

We have no plans to reveal it.

And what about the structure?

Similar structure.

It could be a house.

Yes, because I hate McMansions and stuff that doesn't fit in the neighborhood.

So yeah, it would absolutely have some sort of you know, you wouldn't build a glass house there.

At least in my personal opinion.

So okay, so your plan is to build if demolition happens.

I think it's 182 unit um condominiums in its place.

No.

Okay.

Okay.

Well, I have well.

Have you no?

Okay.

Although I didn't.

If it is demolished, let's just say if it is if it is approved, what do you plan to do?

We have no plans.

You're just going to demolish the house and do nothing, just have open land.

We'll circle back with the um the LLC that owns it and figure out what they want to do.

My prime directive is really to represent them because they're out of state, and take it through this process.

Okay.

Depending on what you plan to do, if it is demolished, would you need to purchase any of the other properties that's nearby?

No.

For your project.

I don't see why we would.

Okay.

And just to make a comment, sometimes when we have historic homes, the owners may not have the money to uh redo the house or maintain the house, and they may not know about grants and other funding opportunities to help with that situation.

So just want to say that I know a comment was made about the money and what have you, but sometimes you just don't have the money.

I mean, sometimes you're in an inherited home, and you know, that's something that you inherit, and you may not have the money to maintain it.

So I agree.

One of the reasons why the house is in disarray as it is right now.

And you seem like you're making that question and comment towards me, but I didn't see it.

No, no, no.

No, no, no.

Actually, it's not.

It's just a question.

No, it's not even a question, it's a comment.

A comment.

To say, well, some people, yeah, you wouldn't be able to answer that anyway, because you're like somewhere else.

But I would yeah, but no, I'm just making a comment that in some cases, um generations will inherit properties, and they may not be able to maintain it, especially of this age.

That's all I'm saying.

But wasn't directed at you, but you want to answer it, you can.

But if you can't, then I'm fine.

I have lots of comments about it.

I mean I rehabbed my house myself with my own two hands.

So I, you know, and I believe it, you know, I believe in the statement of it takes a village and you bring the community together, and and hopefully they'll all work together.

Habitat for humanity is kind of an example.

Second chance of reusing the material.

So I don't think overall it takes a great deal of money, and I I don't think money is it's never been important to me.

It's not the object of really what we're you know, we're looking in my own experience to to um it's not what drives us.

It's it's at least me and my family.

You know, we we work on stuff ourselves.

So it for me that's the important part of kind of really life and to show something afterwards.

I hope that makes sense.

But I leave it up to you guys so they do have a an outlet of someplace to go so you guys can kind of direct them that there are grants, there are other avenues that the community can come together, and I think it's um and um would be a great because there are so many different voices that kind of talk but don't perform, and I think you guys would have a good kind of um track on where people can get stuff done.

I do a lot of properties in Baltimore, and it's the kind of the same thing where you know, hey, there's this grant money, but it's the grant money is five thousand dollars.

So other than buying paint, what are you gonna really use that money for?

And it it's it's kind of a false hope.

You really need to make sure that you're you're investing in the neighborhood and really showing that these homes are worth saving.

I'm gonna politely interrupt.

I think we're pretty far off topic.

Oh, we are way off topic.

Um Chair Fosselman, on that note, we have um acting city attorney Walters has her hand raised, I believe she's walking.

Good evening, HDC.

I um just wanted to point out that the evaluation of significance for legal purposes is limited, and it does not really um encompass what is going to happen to the property after.

It doesn't encompass what kind of house they plan to build, etc.

So the evaluation of significance is limited to whether or not what's currently there is legally significant, historically significant, and it does not encompass you know what is going to go on the property afterwards.

So just wanted to make that point.

Thank you.

Hope that helps with your deliberations.

Appreciate your advice always.

Um staff, I have two comments.

Well, one's a question.

Uh one is um did I misread somewhere that this property's been advertised for quote a dream home or the home of your dreams or something to those words.

Uh staff is not aware of that when we last checked with our development review division, we have not yet received any development applications for what would happen on this home in the future.

There may be speculation, but the city has not received that.

Okay, thank you.

Um, and then second, before the other commissioners just to get back on my original clarification about we're looking at the property.

And this is not, I'm not giving how I'm gonna vote or anything like that, but my question is if we move forward with designating the property historic, may the owner still demolish the house.

So if it would so this body, as you all know, because we've gone through this as a crew several times before, this body would make a recommendation whether to perceive historic designation or not.

Ultimately, then if you did decide that you wanted to pursue designation for this property, we would file a sectional map amendment, it would go through a process before the planning commission and the mayor and council ultimately with the mayor and council being the body that determines whether we do designate the structure or not.

If we went through that and this property was designated, any exterior alterations would require a certificate of approval.

So in the instance that the structure, the owner still did want to demolish a structure, they would have to come to you all with a certificate of approval application for that demolition.

Certainly we don't see that happening all that often, although we do have one other case I can think of in the city where we do have a historic site that the structure on site was so severely deteriorated that this body did approve a certificate of approval.

Now, if the house if the property were to be designated, the house were to be approved for demolition.

Again, any alterations would have to come to this body.

So new construction would have to come to this body.

So just to make sure that I understand if the property itself is designated historic, and the applicant comes back for demolition, and that's approved, and they come again for a new project, whatever that is, and that's approved, then the property still stays historic, but the new structure can be built there, and it could be a single family home or whatever uh the zoning is.

That's correct.

We have a few examples of um similar cases right in this neighborhood as well, some of the other properties on the other side of Martins Lane where the property was designated because of one original structure, and then it was subdivided and new structures were built on it as well.

Thank you.

I appreciate that very much.

We looked at uh not that long ago, we looked at some solar panels on a on basically a new house, but because it was built on a historic property, the HCC had to look at that if you remember.

It was not that long ago.

Okay.

Um commissioners, any other comments?

So I was going to ask, is there any platform where the city goes around to check to see houses that are in similar condition?

So we just recently hired a zoning inspector for the city.

That is one of many of the zoning inspectors' tasks.

Um, I will note that zoning inspectors started about two weeks ago.

Um, so in theory, yes.

In practice, the zoning inspector is responsible as one individual for enforcing the entire zoning ordinance throughout the city.

Um, so in theory, yeah, but there's just a lot on that person's plate.

Okay, do you staff know that this building existed like two years ago?

Were you aware that the building existed in the city?

Let the condition like was staff aware, yes.

Yeah, you are looking.

No, I'm just wondering how we can like avoid something similar to happen in the future.

I don't is there anything that we can do to avoid something no similar situation in the near future?

It's tricky, right?

There's certainly many ideas of programs that could potentially be used.

Of course, those programs then require funds.

Um, in the past, this body has looked at um developing a sort of incentive program for historic properties.

Um, we did bring that several years ago um through the budget process.

Ultimately, that request was not funded.

Um, in theory, we could ask again in the future.

There's nothing that stops us and says we can only ask once.

Um, I'm sure there are programs that could attempt to address this.

How well resourced those programs would be in our community, if that would be enough to move the needle, I can't say.

Thank you.

Thank you, Commissioner.

Any other comments this evening from the commission?

Um a lot of what I was gonna say has already been said, which is great by both um members of the community and my my fellow commissioners.

Um I read this last month when this when I sat down and I was amazed.

I mean, you know, this is probably one of the two or three most consequential um properties that we've had to look at since I've been on the commission for the last five years.

Um there's no doubt in my mind, and I don't think there can be any doubt in anybody's mind that this is not one of the most historic properties in the city.

Um, just just everything about the history of the Haytai commit um community from when the land was um purchased or or granted to to the freed slaves of the Bell family, um, and then you know, and then developed into this community over over generations, and that and to the extent to which that community still exists.

So, you know, the so my question really to myself as I was reading this is what can we do as a body to protect this?

Because that's what we're what that's what our remit is as as the historic district commission to protect properties like this, to find ways of making sure that the historic fabric of of our city is maintained as much as possible.

And you know, there are problems with that.

And I will remind my fellow commissioners that the ongoing uh zoning ordinary will include a um will finally include a demolition by neglect ordinance to make it to make to protect properties like this to some extent, so that the city has a way of helping to protect these properties.

Um I also think and David Hill, uh former member of the um planning commission for the city got up at our last meeting and mentioned the fact that our our historic resources catalog is so out of date that it's that it doesn't do what it's supposed to do anymore.

And we have repeatedly asked Mayor and Council for for money to do this.

Um I think we should still keep asking Mayor and Council for money to do this, and I've been thinking about uh some sort of uh uh a letter to Mayor and Council, at least from myself, and maybe we should think about it for the commission, um, to sort of admonish mayor and council to really to fund this so that we because we can't, you know, we can't do any of this without without really knowing what our resources are.

So those two points are are are larger points related to um trying to protect the historic fabric of the city.

I am um and and all of the conversations we've had, and I appreciate your question, because that that's like the first question is can what are we looking at?

Are we looking at the property?

Are we looking at the at the building here?

Um I think you know, when you look at the property and when you look at its relationship to the rest of the to the you know, to the cemetery, to the other to the other um designated properties um around it to the community itself, um it seems to me that maybe there is that we do have a way of saying, you know, okay, we want to recommend historic designation for this.

That doesn't mean that as we've just been told that that the that the house does can't come down in the future.

That doesn't mean that it doesn't completely prevent the owners from doing what what should be done with this property is is make it into something that can be loved by somebody and but still retain its relationship to the larger community and still retain its its value as a historic um as part of the historic fabric of our city.

So um I guess that's all I have to say, my only comments, and I really appreciate all of this conversation tonight, because I think it's been fascinating and also valuable for the um for the um the sort of for this property but also for the the role of the HDC in the city.

I would like to see American Council have to consider this at least.

Um it's it's a poster child for um for why we need this demolition by neglect.

I know this is going through, but it, but it it it's something, you know, it is I've said it three times already.

This is clearly one of the most historic properties in the city.

Um and it's our job to say to say that whether or not a property is historic as a body, that's what we are, that's our our legal responsibility as a body.

Um none of what comes afterwards really matters at this point.

And you know, if we say that, then the sit, then the mayor and council actually have to have to look at this and consider it and realize what's what's happened here and what what and and think about the role their role in preserving that fabric.

So that's uh and I'll I'll end there.

Thank you, Commissioner.

Any other comments from the commission?

Okay.

Um further discussion?

Do I hear a motion?

No, I'll make a motion.

Okay.

There's no further discussion.

No, okay.

So finding that the building proposed for demolition at 24 Martins Lane, meets the historic district commissions, HDC's adopted criteria for historic significant criteria A, B, C, N D, and architectural design and landscape significant criteria.

A move that D HDC recommend historic designation.

May I have a second?

I'll second.

Any further second.

Sorry.

Any further discussion?

All in favor.

Okay.

Can we do a roll call of in favor and opposed just so we can have that?

I failed to call anyone opposed.

Um, so one more time, all in favor.

I'm sorry.

Chair Fosselman.

Commissioner Power Commissioner Dumbo.

Commissioner Shengay.

All opposed?

Commissioner Goldfinger.

Thank you.

Thank you for asking.

Okay.

Next on the agenda.

Is old business?

Commissioners.

I have uh I'm sorry, did you have something in your I have just one thing to discuss, and that's the um letter that the historic district commission has put forth to the staff in reference to um Katie, Miss Gurbays.

Apologies.

That's okay.

We understand.

Can we repeat the question?

Yes, I didn't even get to the whole question, actually.

And I realized I looked up and you I know you it wasn't your fault.

Uh the old business I wanted to bring up is the letter that the HCC has in reference to the preservation month of May.

Um it's already June, and I know that you all have um indicated that it'll be somehow published somewhere, at least at the website.

But I just wanted to express my disappointment that it cannot be put into the city's newsletter, or at least as I've said of the last three meetings, um, at least a tiny blurb and then maybe a link or a way for people to find out further information about and read the letter in its entirety.

Um I I'm just disappointed, and I will add for the record, I think that there is a there's a lack of understanding um not only in our officials but also our residents in the city as to what the HTC does and the significance of the historic districts, and and that's not to be negative, it's just that the point is is I think our awareness needs to be raised, and if the city puts any value in the historic properties, um they should have this letter get some more publicity than what's being proposed.

And this is not anti-staff.

I know where you all are speaking from, but I'm just disappointed.

So um that's it, thank you.

Commissioner Goldfinger.

Yeah, I uh wish to add to um what uh Chairman Fosselman said, but I submit for your edification Rockville reports.

This was from February, and right there, Glenview Mansion marks 100 years as historic icon.

So there is a recognition of the city's history, but it's it's it's sort of piecemeal.

And um, you know, I think the letter that uh that um Pete Commissioner Fausselman drafted sort of encompasses the entire historic preservation efforts within the city, and I think you know, I just want to um support what he just said, it needs to be recognized some way other than just the website, but you know, there is a precedent for historic stuff in the newsletter, so there you go.

Yeah, you can have this if you want.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Any other comments from the commission?

New business or excuse me, old business.

Okay.

Um ahead, please.

Um yeah, I just wanted to.

I sort of alluded to it before in my sort of rambling speech about uh a demolition by neglect, and um uh I'm not up to what's really going on.

Um Commissioner Gembo did allude to the fact that the zoning uh update will include that, but um uh you know there's no are there gonna be any teeth to it?

Um you know, if if something's identified, you know, he is a perfect example.

It was almost four decades allowed to uh just sort of deteriorate and nobody did anything about it.

Um should there be some um some teeth in it, some uh penalties or incentives or something that we don't run into these things more and more because it seems like that's the way you get around demolishing historic structures, you just let them uh deteriorate um over time, and then you come and say, well, it's not safe, we have to tear it down, and that's not what I think we should be about.

And that's not what I think we should be about.

So I'm just sort of throwing that out.

Um, you know, if you if you need all five of us at the next mayor and council meeting or some point, I think we would all be there to to show support.

But you know, let's sort of um what do I want to say?

G get it the importance that that we all think it deserves.

Just uh there you go.

So just a couple of notes on that.

Um Commissioner Demo did bring up the zoning ordinance rewrite.

That is currently slated on the agenda of June 29th before the mayor and council for adoption.

Um my understanding is there have been some tweaks to the language regarding historic preservation that this body has discussed in the past.

Admittedly, I'm not fully caught up yet on what all of those tweaks are.

I have some red lines that I need to read through.

Um, but my understanding is demolition by neglect is still in there.

Um, and the teeth is exactly what the proposed revision is.

Um currently there is a definition of demolition by neglect in our code, but it does not actually say you can't do it, and it doesn't say there's a penalty for doing it.

So that's what the proposed change would be is allowing the enforcement action to take place.

Now I will note as of February when I left, how it was currently drafted, um, that section on demolition by neglect applies to historic properties.

So if there is a property that is not designated, demo by neglect would not necessarily apply to that property.

That would be then our property maintenance code, which also has enforcement teeth, but it's a different vehicle, if that makes sense.

Which is why we need a yep, a new catalog.

I do not disagree with that.

I know you're I know we're preaching that we're preaching to the choir here, but but yeah, no, I think I mean I I think this is this is the big thing that we need to really push with Marin Council from my point of view.

And I think Katie would agree because it's something you've been pushing for for a while.

Um, not just Katie, she'll as well.

Um because like without that, without really knowing what the resources are and having a clear, a clear, you know, a document that that we can turn to to say to Mayor and Council, look, this property is a problem.

We need to, or you know, or let's think about which of these properties we now need to designate because we're gonna we'll lose stuff, you know.

If we're talking about 50 years, that 50 years is always moving on, right?

We're all getting older, we're not getting any younger.

So um so I think we need to to come up with some some mean means for really getting in front of Marin Council, and and um, I mean, I've had some informal talks with them when I've seen them at uh at events around town with various members of the um of Mayor Council, and I think you know, the more we do that, and the more we actually get in their faces and say we really need to spend some money on a on a new catalog to say what are the historic resources, what's what what might what what historic resources aren't listed?

Because how old is the last time this was done?

40 years?

Um the catalog, I believe, is from 2011.

Okay.

So still that's that's not a that's you know, getting close to that's a young adult.

That's 15 years, right?

So yeah.

That's all.

Thank you, Commissioner.

I would like um one or two things that happen, maybe for this rezoning rewrite rewrite.

We can as a commission, we could speak to it, you know, and particularly uh regarding the historic aspects of it, or individually.

And I think that this opportunity for us to be in front of Mayor Council to share our views of what's really going on.

I mean, I mean the letters, I'm I'm sure they could have put it in there, but they didn't.

So, you know, we need to let them know that we are here for the city and we're here to preserve and do the things that we are required to do, and we'll sort of being stopped from doing it.

So I don't know what the letter would say, but I think that we do need to weigh in on the rewrite.

Okay.

And I don't is there a copy of um where can we find a copy of the rewrite?

Yeah, so it will be in the packet.

I don't know if the packet might have been published already, but it's also available on Engage Rockville.

So if you go to Engage Rockville.com slash zoning rewrite, they've um there's quite a few documents on there.

Um, but they have kind of like a clean version of the proposed draft as well as a red line that you can kind of see what the changes may have been.

Katie, could you do us a huge favor and send an email to us reminding us that the meeting's June 29th, and then a link to that specific, or if you can, a PDF of just the aspects of the HCCs.

Yep, you got it.

Thank you.

Because with my dyslexia, and I tried going online looking through that huge.

So what do you all think?

Would you like to?

Too late.

We've done that.

I know, but microphone, please.

More than once.

All right.

Go ahead.

More than once is great.

I'm I'm happy to write letters to Mayor and Council too till uh till my hand falls off.

I mean, we should we should be getting in front of Mayor and Council as much as we can, but for the zoning ordinance rewrite, I mean they're they're gonna adopt it at the end of the month.

We've submitted.

I I wrote a letter last year.

We reviewed all the changes as a body, made our recommendations through Katie and Sheila.

Um like we're the the opportunity to do that has passed.

We're they're gonna adopt it.

And I think you know, again, we can still keep on with them about thinking about understanding what the HDC is and how things um and and what our role is and all that.

But I on on the specifically the zoning ordinance, we've we've done what we can, I think.

But the the twenty for clarification the 29th is when they're gonna adopt it.

Yes.

Okay, sorry, I missed that part.

Yeah, but you have community forum.

Yeah, but okay.

I mean, it's well, yeah, I may do it myself, but I think it looks better coming from the commission.

But issue all the call.

So the message, and I'm available on the 29th.

That's why I scrolled for my phone.

Um the message that you all are talking about is not only um the aspect of the rewrite of the zoning ordinance.

What we're talking about, the bigger picture of funding, having more um of a um presence in the city, um support, um, maybe even some education, those kind of things.

Is that what the commission's the bigger picture or am I not hearing the message?

See, I think those are all good messages and important ones that we should be um transmitting to Mayor and Council.

I think my feeling would be that we should do that separate from seeing from connecting.

We shouldn't connect that to the zoning ordinance rewrite because I I feel like that these they're they're different issues, they're important and they're they'll enable us and future HTC bodies to have a um to have better means to do our to perform our role and and but I think um those are separate from the zoning ordinance rewrite stuff.

I mean, I would like to see what the red lines are to see what's changed since and I know I probably should have engaged earlier in the month when they were having their working sessions, but you know, life is busy.

Um but that would be helpful to see what's what's changed and what they are.

Um, as you said, the red line skating.

So if you could do that, send us that, that would be great.

Okay, any other comments from the commissioners under old business.

Or do we even get the new business?

I don't know where we were, but we're in old business.

Okay, any new business.

Nobody's business, no.

Uh yeah.

Um apologize for not, you know.

I've been um giving brief summaries of historic structures, uh, and I hope to get back to that next month.

Well, we're happy to see you back with this.

Yeah, I'm happy to be back.

Yeah, we're forgiven given your trust trust me, I'm your health issues.

Okay, well, if there's nothing else, um Sheila, again, we really appreciate all of your efforts.

We wish you a happy retirement.

And I appreciate your efforts as well.

Of course.

I'm sitting here getting stressed.

You might have picked a good time.

Yeah, okay.

Uh, may I have a motion to adjourn?

Sorry.

I don't move.

May I have a second?

I move to adjunct the meeting.

May I have a second?

Second.

All in favor.

Thank you all.

Thank you, staff.

Thank you, Channel 11.