Good morning, everyone.

The second to see Council's budget and audit committee will come to order with the clerk

please call the roll. Mayor Pro Tem Telemontes, Council member

Gara will be absent. Council member Vang and Mayor Steinberg.

I am here. Very good morning to everyone. Why don't we get right into the business if

that's okay? We will do the pledge of allegiance of course in the landing

knowledge minute, both our two o'clock and five o'clock meeting. Let's begin with the consent

calendar. Are there any questions, comments, public testimony on the consent

calendar? If not, I'd happily accept a motion. Very good, all in favor please say aye.

Aye. That passes by unanimous vote of three to nothing. All right, we have one

discussion item. It's very important one on the measure you community advisory

committee's recommendations. Always an important discussion. Chair Dickinson, are you

here to present for the commission? I am here to present and where one of our

members will be here momentarily but I can I can begin our presentation.

In Toxelo. That's a real test for me.

We'll try it here. Thank you Mayor and Council members. I am Marge Dickinson. I'm

Chair of the Measure You Community Advisory Committee and I will be joined here by

committee member Teddy George Off who has provided expertise and leadership on the

important issues around performance measures and metrics for our committee. We

are pleased to be here to discuss our recommendations submitted on September 16th. As you know, one

of the duties established for the measure you community advisory committee in 2018 and

reaffirmed last night by this council in the updated boards and commissions ordinance is

the review of performance measures and evaluation of city expenditures. Consistent with that

mandate we provide these recommendations with the goal of establishing a meaningful partnership

with the council and staff to establish performance measures and metrics that meet the needs of

each party specifically for us that mandate you gave us. We urge you to move these recommendations

forward to the council and to include direction to engage in an ongoing dialogue with committee

representatives throughout the development process. Make no mind we are quite aware that staff

has initiated efforts to define performance measures and we are pleased that that effort

is underway and also we recognize that it is a complex, difficult undertaking. That said,

we do feel that it is critically important that the measure you perspective be part of

the ongoing dialogue and the development of these metrics because frankly we don't want

to be, you know, have them developed done and then I say but you missed this or you missed

that. We really want to be hand in hand walking into the metrics sunset with the staff effort.

Can I ask a question on that please because I know in reading the staff report that the

staff says reluctantly that they cannot accept or agree with the recommendation and I'm just

wondering maybe just to join the conversation why is it either or here. In other words,

yet the staff is working on performance based outcomes. You have some thoughtful recommendations

here about how to do this. Why isn't this a collaborative effort for the city to then

continue to improve and enhance its performance outcome? That's exactly what we would ask for and

I think we think I think that the best way for us to do that is to be part of the conversation,

the dialogue, the development effort in a, I'm going to say words that will probably drive

people nuts on a day-to-day basis. Part of the team so that it isn't a matter of being presented

with a done deal that it's a matter of, you know, jointly agreeing on a done deal that works

or disagreeing in the end if you can't agree. But you're talking about the, and even if it's not

day-to-day or hour-to-hour, but what is the process by which the measure you advisory committee and

the city staff work together to try, to endeavor to try to get at a set of staff and community-driven

recommendations that everyone can support? That's the question before us, right? The either or

thing does, you know, my first instinct is it was either or we're sitting in camps here. Well,

and if we were perceived as being our way or the highway, that is not, that is absolutely not,

the impression we wanted to give. We developed recommendations that we've made recommendations

last two or three budget cycles for performance measures that better measure impact as opposed to

activity. We were really excited to hear Budget Director Coletto came to our September meeting,

I guess, and told us that there was an effort underway. We have deep expertise with

Member George, I was here now, on this topic. And your question is, I think a question for all

of us, which is how do we integrate our interests and expertise, our interests, which is mandated by

you and our expertise, which is great good fortune with the efforts initiative and expertise of

the staff who's working on this. Okay, maybe we should hear from the staff and what would

you like to hear from? Would you like to hear from Member George Off?

Yeah, please make a presentation and then we can talk about how we all work, how we all maximize

our work together here. Let's see. Sorry for being slightly late. Glad it sounds like

Chair has had it well covered. It sounds like you're actually on to the conclusion that I think

is totally acceptable. I'm happy to present the ideas that we have, but if we feel like that's not

even really worth discussing in this forum and better to have that sort of forum as like an

ongoing basis, like Chair mentioned month, month, week to week, and that's totally fine too. I'm

happy to like work on that instead. Well, why don't you give us an overview, maybe spare some

of the detail, but just sort of the overall approach? Yeah, I'll skip around then. Let's see.

So problem one, oh, can I go back? No, I can not go back.

Problem one essentially is that when we're given a task to evaluate all the programs that measure

you runs, which when I went through it is around 96 programs. So it's quite a lot. We have to evaluate

those on a program level basis, but the city collects division or department level metrics.

And so although they are captured within a department level metric, we have no way of evaluating

something specific on all going to an example as well. The second problem that we have is that

localized program outputs need to ladder up to outcome goals that align with top city objectives.

So what you would have is something here would be like x tons of garbage removed from street.

That ladders up to a residence satisfaction survey. They feel like things are clean up to a top

city level goal of vibrant neighborhoods. And that comes directly out of the top objectives of

measure you. So in our resolution, now we suppose we have an ordinance and I should have quoted that,

but that was very recently passed. We have these five top level measures or top level objectives.

We have equity, we have vibrant and level neighborhoods, we have safe neighborhoods, we have youth,

and we have economic opportunity. So those have of course some sort of metrics that are median metrics

that we can evaluate from. We can't say, is our neighborhood safe? How do we measure that? We could

look at crime rates, we could look at fire response times, we could look at the number of population

who are homeless who don't have shelter. These are things that an individual program might try to

affect, but they could never claim full percentage, this is the impact that we made. So what you have

are these proxy metrics, which then determine whether or not a program is successful. So what our

suggestion is, is to basically change how we sort of format the measure you budget program update.

And to give some background here, I've been doing data science for the past 10 years.

In the past five years, I worked in top tech fan companies and doing data science. In fact,

my first year at Facebook, I was working on the AB testing tools for these sort of programs where

we're evaluating, is this something that's worth keeping around? Is this something worth removing?

So I'm trying to bring that expertise to the city. So what we would see as useful here is in

purpose of program and status of program, these are not objective metrics, they're sort of

subjective explanations of what is happening. So if I were to change this slightly, say for

example, with the citywide pool assessment and repair, we have the purpose, which is to repair

replace various pools owned by the city, but a useful statistic to us would be X pools

inspected, Y repairs made. This is the percent of homes that have a walking distance to that sort

of recreation, things like this where we could say, okay, the $1 million that we put into that

program is valuable. That is creating an impact and we should put more into it, or maybe we should

rethink about how we're approaching this program. That's sort of the idea that I'm going through,

and I actually have some better examples that when I went through the 96 programs that we have,

there are some that are very specifically done very well. So for example, we have the fairy tale

town in Land Park, a measure that gives that 12,000 a year, and it has in the data of a status

of program that we have 200,000 visitors in that fiscal year. So we can directly equate 200,000

visitors to $12,000 funding, and we can compare that to other facilities as well, other

recreations. So if you were given a million dollars and only 10,000 people visited, for example,

that's something we could sort of consider as like, okay, maybe we should remove from here, add

to here, make budget decisions that are impactful to the city of Sacramento. Something that would be

less valuable, or for example, some not as good examples, would be, for example, in the Convention

and Cultural Services history, we have a purpose of program, and again, my point here is to not

say that they're not doing something good. The problem is we can't tell. So when they say purpose

of program, the programs of the center are ongoing and reopen for research. Demand for the use of

her historic images and rich film collection remains strong. Like this might be good, but we have no

idea what that demand is. So if they give a number to that demand, how many programs that have you

partnered with, or how many research inquiries have been conducted? That would be something where we

can say, okay, this $1.3 million that we gave you is going towards X value of subjective points,

if that makes sense. And then the last problem that I see is coming from an AB testing background,

obviously we want to be able to determine if the things we're doing are making an impact. And what

way to do that is AB tests, another way to do that would be take like things and compare them.

So we've actually done it in our 547 page budget. The police department had a very good chart.

This is the one comparison I saw in the entire budget that sort of like, hey, this is what Fresno

is doing, this is what San Jose is doing, this is what San Francisco is doing. Here's some likes

that he's in California, and this is how we're comparing. And so you can see direct crime rates,

how many per capita soren officers we have. And you can actually do a, I took this one step

further, but a cost per capita of each individual in Sacramento for the police force. And given similar,

similar, similar, similar, you've learned results between Fresno and Sacramento, we're actually

sort of operating on a budget, which is impressive because we still have quite a bit of overtime

and non, and slots not filled. But this is just an idea of like, oh wow, we're doing good here.

And it doesn't mean we can't improve, but you know, this is maybe not the first place I would be

looking for budget improvements or fiscal conservatism. So yeah, I would, in my recommendation,

include other city light comparisons for measure program where possible. And obviously this is just

to like, as Chair mentioned, sort of create this iterative process where we can sort of have

continuous improvement and facilitate those discussions of actual budget decisions of should we

add to this, should we remove this and getting some objective results, numbers, hard facts to it,

so we can make those decisions. That's basically it. Appreciate it.

Compliment you on just putting so much thought in the something, right? I mean, citizens, members of

these advisory commissions, you know, can show up, participate vote, and then you can actually dive

in and try to add product. And it's obviously you've really attempted to put some depth and

thought into this. So congratulations to you. And thank you. The question is, of course,

forgetting the details, because I don't think we want to get into the weeds here.

But whether or not the city staff is approaching the question of performance outcomes in,

this is say similar way, or where there are, where there might be overlaps. And then, of course,

this question of process, how to engage this advisory committee in a real discussion about some

of these ideas. And to separate that, which is functionally doable and that which might not be.

Our assistant city manager, please. Good morning. Thank you for the opportunity, Mayor.

It's, you know, I think staff said it pretty well in the council report. It's not that we don't

support this. I do think in a way given the effort that we're engaged in to revise and update our

measures to make sure that they're reflective of current council priorities, community priorities

per surveys, as well as departmental goals within that. We might be ahead of, right? We, I think

we should take the time to work through our process and perhaps bring those things back to the

measure you committee and say, okay, here's where we're at. And where might you be looking for

additional detail? Some of the things that concern me in some of the examples are the utility of the

connections made between a particular investment and a particular outcome. And the fairytale town

was a good one because $12,000 doesn't drive $200,000. So I think it's really important that we make

sure that our staff has the opportunity to feedback and say, what does that mean to an operation

like this? And what is that $12,000 really get fairytale town in that investment? Because I don't

think you can compare that type of investment to another program that dollar value in a particular

outcome. So we do so we have to be much more granular at the staff level. But I do think we need

time to finish the process we're already engaged in. I guess the question is how long is that

can be because what sometimes happens in government and it's not unique to Sacramento and it isn't

always the case? Is that internal processes sometimes get extended for many months at a time and

then the citizenry that wants to engage as partners are left waiting with the timetable being

totally in the hands of the staff. So I think if there was some assurance that you were bringing forward

a draft product within a specific period of time and then inviting the MeasureU Committee to engage

in working that that might be good. But that's the question. We do a cleanup every year. So there

will be a new version of performance metrics when we roll out our next budget. And I would need to,

I can't commit to a timeline right now because I would need to understand from staff what

their process is and where they expect to be finished. But I believe that we can come back

to the committee and I think it would be appropriate to work on a as-go basis. And that way they're not

not struck by here's our finished product. What do you think? But we can bring things that affect

MeasureU and get their feedback on an ongoing basis and roll them in as we're ready to. But I'm not

ready today to commit to a timeline. Well, let me, okay, I'm going to do one more because we're doing

this at a public hearing which is fine. But what about as you are preparing the budget, which I know

is a lot of work there. See the two leaders in the second row here. Why don't you meet with the

MeasureU committee or subset of them as you are developing these updated performance metrics and

actually get their input ahead of time. So maybe your draft and product can incorporate some of

what they are suggesting. Maybe not. That's your call in the end, of course. But I want to spend

some time with them and do a mini workshop for a couple of hours between now and the first of

the year and actually see if you might take their input in a more informal way. I do think we have

an opportunity. How many meetings between now and then is there another one more meeting? We've got

another meeting and I think we can commit if we have updated measures to bring those to that meeting

so that they can see that. Even if they're in draft for. Okay, so why don't you got, I mean,

it's now you have to figure out how you want to agenda as your meeting, but you have one meeting

before the end of the year. Why don't you make this a key topic? Why don't you, my suggestion,

make this item sort of workshop form and really sit around with the staff and see what they are

developing and that's, you know, we got to create collaboration in real time and in real ways.

Would that work? I think that's a really good start. Okay. Because I mean, we recognize how big

and carry in complex as effort is, but it just makes sense to us that there has to be some

ongoing meaningful engagement so that we don't get some place where we just say this isn't working

and it could have been simply resolved. I see this as a mutual commitment to dialogue at the

next measure you are a committee meeting, a collaboration with the staff workshop form agendized,

so the public can participate and you'll get that much further. Okay, we got a couple of public

speakers. Go ahead. I have two speakers, Marbella Sala, Benzai on Teddy's. Hi Marbella.

Hi. Good afternoon. How are you? I'm good. How are you? Well, it was music to my ears to hear you

mayor come up with the solution and I'm just only every Tuesday. I was good negotiation. I really

appreciate that because we've been so Chair Dickinson and I have been a measure you've, well she's

been on measure use from the very beginning and I think I joined two years after its initiation.

And the one constant item in our annual reports and recommendations is to ask for

outcomes benchmarking data because it's been very difficult for us when we're making a

recommendations and trying to determine the resources and money we're going to allocate is we

couldn't engage if it was effective or not. And then we have and so we've been asking this and

then we mainly on our measure you commission we have a bunch of new commissioners and they started

well how do we make recommendations without having data to determine whether that program was

effective. So I appreciate your your recommendation that we meet and collaborate because we're not on

opposite ends. We're we're all wanting to do the same thing so if we can collaborate and there's

some good suggestions that can help and then there might be things that are not doable at this point

but if we collaborate like your suggestion we're going to get closer to getting what we want so

thank you very much. Thank you thank you thank you. Next speaker is Zion.

Hi everyone thank you for having me so I just wanted to put you know for measure you

everything is good you know what has been going on with measure you for a long time but the only

thing I have problem with is the community investment. The community investment in the youth

investment we already spend 29 million 27 million but in our community I don't see it. I don't

see it you still people call me where they can put the people who came out of jail. They use

still killing each other there's no resources for especially in our community so this measure you

I see all the money that is spending I'd rather being spent in them people and you know the people

who needs these resources and programs and I just have a problem with the community investment

where is it where is the small businesses we are shutting down a lot of small businesses are

shutting down right now there is no investment in the small businesses like me and other small

businesses so I wish they can we can actually see some results I don't see in our community where

we are when it comes to the youth the education the housing 40% of our blood community even the

way of 5% is homeless what is that money investing in our blood community so I just wish that you

know we have equity separate equity for really for specific help like today somebody called me

they have three people out of jail but they don't know where to put them they have to call the

whole nonprofit every other nonprofit but nobody can help those people who are out of jail so those

type of stepping stone in our community that we need so the youth or the adults come out of jail

they have at least a step in your comments your time is complete thank you for comments

all right thank you very much members of the public and members of the major you advisor

community let's now turn it over to the members I have one other comment on the back end but I'm

going to start with council member van thanks mayor just wanted to take this time to think

chair Dickinson and also Teddy for the the presentation thank you so much for your thoughtfulness

and your hard work just wanted to echo the mayor I actually see this as mutual and attitive

to the work that we're doing here at the city and I think the direction for staff to present

at the next measure you committee with their updates on their measures would be a really great start

I see that there are four recommendations for this item in particular because this is a

receive and provide direction mayor what I would like to add because we are a budget and

audit and we're kind of responsible for oversight of our budget and audit metrics I would love for

report back to see what the progress is because I think it's really important just for us as mayor

and council to know what the status is on the update on the partnership because that's so critical I

know if we work in conjunction with our measure you committee I think we will have less friction

because they're part of co-creating those metrics and so in addition to your direction mayor I

would also add if possible that there is a direction to come back to budget and audit for a status

update with measure you committee and staff about the progress I do thanks great for all your hard work

let's make that part of the informal committee direction here absolutely okay vice chair

for me I you know I think the recommendations are good but we're getting into the weeds of like

words categories and like data which is good we need all the data that we can get but I guess one

of my recommendations for the measure you committee is like maybe staff can direct the organizations

that have received funding from the measure you committee to come present to you at the committee

commission meetings because data is one thing to hear the stories of how people were impacted

with the funding for measure you is another thing for example I mean we have a few organizations

that may have gone in money in district three having them come to council and say hey I got two

million dollars from this from the city Sacramento measure you funding I was able to do x y and z

and have you here directly from the providers of the services I think would be more impactful in

how we do evaluations and how we move forward as a city not just for transparency purposes but

to also like feel good about the investments that you all made based on the data that you receive

from the community survey and like how do we continue that momentum and I think that like hearing

from the provider from you know the organizations that receives the funding I think would be a

unique thing to add to the direction to staff and staff I mean like for you guys just to

connect them with your organization you guys can help schedule it on your own so it's on your

own time too and if you go by like you know start with the north and then start with the south and

just start hearing about the investments I think would be a good idea so I like to pass the motion

which is recommendation number three directing the measure you committee and or staff to connect

for the review and come back to the budget audit committee with information of how the programs have

worked to our since the manager and budget team with how the programs and data on it and maybe

feedback on what you guys think about my idea right now bring it back to your board and let me know

what you guys think but I think it could be a unique way to you know shine a spotlight on the good

work that you're doing and the organizations that receive the money. I think it's right consistent

with everything we've been talking about right yeah yeah I think I think that's great mayor

pro temp telemante's I think that the additive of looking at

nonprofit service provider if they receive measure U dollars to see what the outcomes are

and no but and but I also know the majority of measure U funding is all goes to the city as well so

I think accountability for our CBO absolutely I think that should be added I didn't see that in

the presentations I think that's a really good flag from mayor pro temp telemante's but I know a

big portion of measure U dollars are four city programs so I want to make sure that we have

measures for those so but I think that's a great a great motion on the table and I will second that

and it could be both yeah absolutely yeah okay did you have another comment council member van

nope that was it okay so I just want to add one other thing and I know that what I'm about to say

is so 2019 or 2020 but I have to remember the history of measure U especially this well there's

two parts to the history there's 2013 which was a half cent post-procession shore up city services

then there was the mayor's fenceful idea of 2018 that we not only renew it but we add a second half

cent sorry and the mayor at the time I'm had this idea that with this additional money we could

invest more in our communities more in youth more in inclusive economic development more in

neighborhood development action teams we're gonna see some of that investment tonight along

Stockton Boulevard more inclusive economic development and of course both the strength and the

flaw in the approach is that it was a general tax and even though throughout various periods of time

it's been accounted for differently right sometimes a measure you fund sometimes a general fund

it's really one and the same but the question that we started to analyze at the beginning but I

think if kind of lost this thread is that over the course of time how much additional money either

from the general fund or for measure U is being invested in the categories that measure U called

out because that's what's important it is an additional what is it now any the second I've sent

70 million dollars a year so either that's saving the city from a worse budget deficit and or

it's being used to invest in in significant community priorities neighborhood priorities

inclusive economic development priorities that were called out during the measure U campaign but

either way there's a measurement to be made here that I think is relevant to confidence with the

public which I know some critics have said well you you didn't spend it all on what you said fair

enough but the cumulative investment between the general fund and measure U since 2018 in the

neighborhoods in the community especially when you add the ARPA and the cares funding has been

historic more than ever before look at Northgate Boulevard look at Del Paso Boulevard look at

Stockton Boulevard look at all those five million dollar investments and end that teams and all the

additional funding from youth even before measure L but we're not doing a justice to it in my view

because we're not measuring it so I would say as the city staff tries to do that as I've asked

it intermittently I don't know whether the new mayor will and council will will want that same kind of

analysis but I think for the measure you committee that you can lead on this it's important that you

actually measure how the arc of city investment is changing over the course of time and how much more

we're actually spending in these categories and you can define them I mean we know what they are

but you can you can decide what's on what side of the line and what's on the other side of the line

but I would just make that recommendation to you because people want to know over time

did this additional half-sent result in more investment in the neighbors I argue it has

and and I think that's exactly what we're trying to do okay we just need to do it in partnership with

the city because we don't want to get into a data war a you're measuring the wrong thing war

I mean we want to be a partner in this and we want to agree on what's important to measure

yes and I do just want to speak to what the vice mayor said about presentations we actually have

received presentations on measure you funded programs from participatory budgeting and they're

fantastic and they're inspirational and they illustrate in a really qualitative way what the

impact of small amounts of money can have but we also need to be responsible stewards of the

public's money to also tell them both qualitative and quantitatively where how their money is being

spent and that's the dialogue we really really want to have as a committee with staff as we

develop these things you know there's lots of things that need to be measured probably need to

triage on what are the most important ones but we really it needs to be a shared partnership a team

effort your hope so with you and with Laneian with the city team so thank you the members appreciate it

all right there's a motion on the table all in favor please say aye aye opposed

abstain that's three to nothing another unanimous vote of the budget and audit committee

all right is there anything further to come before the committee if not merger

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