That's typical.

I mean I think a lot of planners hang around for two or three years in the first job and then they're off to greener pasture somewhere else.

I was just thinking that for other little side things, uh to can you continue growing his skill set.

Well then I think that's where I was mentioning aptitude and and ability and and showing your merit and showing your ability to get what you're already given before you're given additional uh button above.

Uh on a contract.

Uh huh.

On an agreement or a contract.

James.

You will live in Sandy for you will be a slave to me for a minimum of five years before your natural two is up.

Well then Brian and I can get a contract out of you, James.

That's right.

Yeah, it goes both ways.

It's true.

Goes both ways, James.

How many years can we sign you up?

Especially now that your best friend's retiring.

That's actually gonna be better for me.

For your weight loss goals.

Yeah.

And money.

It's so expensive to go off.

Well, he's not paying this week.

He's not paying each week for your set your lunch.

He's not treating you out to lunch?

Never.

Oh, what a jerk.

No.

Shake.

We do go up and it's not.

She comes down pretty much every day and says, Let's go to lunch.

Oh yeah.

And James says, okay.

You let me know if you're ready.

Is that like a role in the lobby?

And let's sweat.

Oh jeez.

So it handles pressure.

Well, um give give Jake a chance to actually read the other staff report.

Well, I I thought the first applicant was very strong, I was impressed.

This one I can't believe he's never done.

He's away.

I know.

Oh yeah, he's yes.

What do you mean knowing it's said nine?

Can you see it for you?

It's a solid nine.

Oh, you see the shape.

No, like as a like a down there.

I heard a number, sorry.

Deniable.

Interesting.

Yeah.

We've had we've had this before where we had an embedded and analysis based on denial and sometimes you use as I think you in fact in your interview.

You recommended not putting the proposal.

I don't remember recommended tabling it.

Yeah.

Which wasn't unique amongst the applicants.

Oh yeah.

Maybe it deserves it.

But you can't.

You can't deny a CP without stage part of the city.

I know.

Why why the and that code has changed since I can make it.

Feels really good.

Actually.

We weren't mean.

You weren't.

I should have been.

I can be mean.

Yeah.

Do you have anything to be?

Oh yeah.

Somebody that wrong Momo, maybe.

Oh no, I can be able to do that.

Uh-huh.

I try to keep it in check.

That's my thing.

So that's one.

Well, the thing is too is one of them to state credits, I'll just sign up.

What?

Well, when you interns upstairs, oh Utah State versus all my traditions that they've got going on.

We don't care about other people's fields.

We we only do the things that make us better.

Are you Utah State?

Me?

Yeah.

Yeah.

But he worked for DKE engineering.

And then and then this other engineering.

I'm wondering.

Engineers usually can't worry.

Still, I mean, is it pretty decent on a national level?

Is it I mean, where does it?

Does it rank up there a bit?

Or is it smaller?

I don't know about as far as rankings go.

Um when I graduated, they weren't even accredited yet.

But they got accreditation like a year or two later.

Um I think they're they're well respected.

They've got a few people like reviewing that um and and some others that are on staff that are highly regarded professors.

And I wonder if Phil Emily's still there.

I mean, he's I gotta think he's gonna be there as like an emeritus, like I'm just doing my special projects until he's dead.

I think he's that kind of a Phil Emmy.

He's the guy that actually turned me on to planning.

He was a he was a visiting professor, like just doing a guest lecture in an architecture class that I was in.

And his appeal for his uh talk is about how urban planning was well, I don't even know it was a thing at that point in my and uh it was like a light bulb went on, and I was like, I don't want to do architecture, I want to be with urban planet.

I didn't like him at first, but I did come to appreciate him.

He's a he's a polarizing guy.

You either love him or you kinda hate him.

I did write a paper, and he said it was the best paper I've ever read.

So wow.

I never knew that like that day or ever.

In the moment of reading that paper, it was the best one on read.

That's impressive tracks.

I put a lot of effort into how much I did class currently couldn't talk, so make sure to find this nice later.

Uh 10.

So we could start with uh if you guys are ready.

He's a penalty wondering all.

What is this?

He got the acronym.

Oh, Sandy.

No.

And then this one says SMC.

What are they referencing SMC?

I took a book of class from him, but it's largely focused on three different books.

So it's rationality and power.

Well, how can you deny what conditions?

Right.

That's confusing.

I I would recommend denial about for the reason he's state as well.

Well, you can't.

I mean, which is why in the world would do you think you'd have a legal basis for it to do that.

The owner of the business does not live on the property curve.

Oh, okay.

There we that that's that's very good.

Supposed to be on the businesses now.

Like I guess we need first that you will be able to do the business, but that's where you look at his letter, right?

Oh, the applicant.

The African letter.

That's the information we gave him.

But a seat I moved away from the home, and my son has moved into it.

But who owns it?

Yeah.

See, I heard the step or well, hold on.

So how long we say No, no, you just you don't have to own anybody, you have to live there.

That's what the code says.

So if it's that you have to own it.

Yes.

You can't just be an employee.

Oh, well, not an employee.

Oh, of the business, the owner of the business.

Okay.

You can be a renter in the house.

Yes.

So you could be a renter and rent the home and own the business.

But you can't be an employee of somebody else's business and operate it from the home.

Right, and so if they if they change that, then they would quite.

We had an issue with some home occupations of daycares that it was uh string or a conglomerate of these uh and we said no no no, you can't have this LLC that has multiple locations.

We're talking about the plugs.

No, this was uh we had that issue with some fluidists.

Oh, I just did my best to start yesterday.

And there are these sisters that owned this business.

And they were renting homes.

Saying that they were living there.

Yeah, but they operated by a meeting.

Otherwise, they didn't actually live in.

And they were trying to apply for multiple locations at the same time.

I just can't actually put back.

And then she went to the other own reservation.

With her use format.

Yeah.

So my defense I mean is formatted.

There's certain things we can overlook.

We can overlook and feed out of someone.

Individuality.

Or be in the same.

Yeah.

I feel like I'm going to be next.

You will come back.

Is that fair?

Oh, that's right.

Commercial three tricks.

No.

She's very detailed.

She's good.

Carolyn.

Yeah.

She does.

Great.

We have two too many US state graduates as it is.

Wait, is it any of those you trusted?

Oh James.

So I was in the College of Natural Resources.

I'm pretty sure I was the only person who showered every day.

You were with all the granology.

Uh-huh.

They would like come to class, like we'd just come out of a campground.

You know, and we had like the bag, it was like you had this giant backpack, and now had a carabiner or two with a copy mode on it.

And I'm like, I mean, I showered and that's when I used to share everything.

Yeah, they all have just recently graduated, except for Michael Jones.

Michael Jones graduated last year.

Um has been working with DKE.

No.

No, Jones Democrat recently.

Yeah.

He was at DKE.

That's right.

So he has a little bit of engineering background.

Alright.

Should have walked somewhere else who's going to be talking county either.

Zubies.

I wonder if he speaks Spanish with a feta.

With what?

A theta.

Huh?

Michael Jones is here.

Yeah.

We saw it.

Or he's been here since.

Is he waiting in in our office?

No, he's just right here.

He's been here for about a half hour at least.

Yeah.

Oh, we ready?

Sure.

Okay.

Thanks, I want to see some of the signal.

I don't think anybody wants to see what they can.

I've seen it.

Oh that's why she got the most to help.

Oh.

Hello.

Morning.

How are you doing?

Well.

It's good to see you again.

Good to see you again.

So let me introduce the rest of our interview panelists.

Clint Spencer.

Nice to meet you.

Hi, Melissa Anderson.

That's me too too.

Yeah.

So this interview will be a little different than probably most that you've been in.

Yeah.

Um we'll start doing uh by doing a mock PC uh presentation and review.

Um and then we'll follow that up with a few more interview questions.

But before we do that, I wanted to kind of introduce who these people that are part of this interview sound are you met James and Brian last time and ID show.

Melissa is our zoning administrator.

She's been with us for uh gosh, is it four and four years?

Yeah.

Yeah.

We have Quint.

I'm the development services manager.

Okay.

I'm the second longest tenured second shortest tenured actually in our planning.

I've been here for three months.

Oh, okay.

We just hired two.

Ignore the peanut gallery.

We just hired another planner about three weeks ago, two weeks ago.

Yeah.

It's nice that I won't be the you know the mo guy on the totem calling.

No.

It's a good thing.

You already are.

I'm one step up.

Yeah.

And then Warner, uh planning manager.

Been here about eight years.

Alright.

So welcome.

Thank you.

Quick question before we start.

Would this be the preliminary hearing, or would this be the final review for this application?

So with a conditional use permit, it is B hearing.

There's really only one typically for a conditional use permit.

Okay.

So let me get your slides queued up here.

All right, and then we have a clicker down there that you can advance slides.

But like I said, um we'll do this kind of uh mock PC exercise, and then we'll spend a few minutes discussing your approach to this assignment, your work style, and some professional goals that you have.

Um without further ado, we'll go ahead and get this uh PC meeting started.

Welcome everyone to tonight's uh planning commission meeting.

We have one item on our agenda, which is a conditional use permit for Wade Tree Service.

Uh we have our one planner here tonight that will be presenting this item, which is Michael Jones.

Uh, Michael, you may go ahead and begin your presentation.

Sounds good.

So, like Mike said, we're here to talk about Wade Tree Service, who is submitting a conditional use permit for their business, which will be a home occupation to permit.

Um with the um requests that S Wade put in, it would be for this property, 9470 South Cobalt Circle.

Um, the business operator would be his son who will be living on the property.

And the request includes a small home office as well as on-site storage for three work vehicles.

And he says that there will be no client visits and no on-site work activities, and uh the business has been operating from this location for 30 years and started back in 1985.

And that the app client has also complied with prior city requests to uh clean up some of the alley that is next to the property and remove debris.

So this property is currently zoned R18, and the area around the property is R18 for several blocks.

Um equipment storage and professional offices are prohibited in this zone, which is why he put forward for a conditional use permit.

And along with that, the general residential parking standards, which align with the conditional use permit for home occupation too, state that all parking related to an a home occupation must be on site and on the street, and that there can only be one commercial vehicle parked on a residential lot.

And then, and this aligns all with 2133, but along with this, there is case law of Fox vs.

Park City, 2008, Utah 85, which supports the denial of conditional use permits when a use does not match the character of the surrounding area.

So a summary of the public outreach that was put out.

Um sent out to all property owners within 500 feet of the property.

There were five residents that attended this neighborhood meeting.

And the main concerns that they brought up were traffic impacts on street parking of commercial vehicles, specifically possibly employee parking, as well as material storage that was happening on the property.

In response to this, the applicant stated that there was no tree service work occurring on the site, and that the trucks are only parked at night and on the weekends on the property.

Analysis of this request is that currently the applicant is not following city code when it comes to material storage on the property, which aligns with the home occupation two permit, as well as he's storing too many conversion vehicles, as well as having street parking for visitors to the site.

This all falls under non-compliance, and that the CUP standards require impacts to be mitigated and all around what he is proposing doesn't necessarily mitigate the impacts that would happen on the property and the area around it.

So ask any questions as you feel it, but the main concern is parking conditions.

So as previously listed, they are storing three commercial vehicles on the site when the maximum is one.

And with the off-site street parking of visitors related to the home occupation.

If we go to 2115 D5 of the home occupation standards, when it comes to off-site employees, any home occupation may utilize employees to work off-site, but the off-site employee volunteer hiree or any other person engaged with the home occupation should not come to the home for purposes related to the home occupation business license except for incidental vehicle stops.

And currently with three commercial vehicles there, and what the residents around have seen of parking for the employees, that would be considered non-compliance.

And if this initial use permit were to move forward, then that would have to be addressed.

As well as, of course, the not storing of materials in that same section of 211510.

It states that the home occupation shall not involve the use of any yard space for storage or displays of supplies, inventory, or equipment when such use is conjunction with the sale service and production of goods.

In the neighborhood meeting is brought up that these materials was wood storage that was probably left over from a tree removal site, which would be inconsistent with its home occupation and would also need to be addressed.

And then, of course, finally the section 12 of that same code about commercial vehicles.

Only one such vehicle shall be parked on residential lot.

Commercial vehicle parked or stored on the regimental lot must be out of proportion to the occupant resides at the residence, of course.

So due to this, I have listed in the staff report my findings, which are consistent with it, and the conditions that they need to address the lapse in their business license, which is part of why they came to us, as well as the number of vehicles and materials stored on site, make sure they are being consistent with on-site parking requirements, as well as possibly do some road damage bonds for the increased traffic of these commercial vehicles going through these residential roads, as well as complying with some regular compliance reviews.

I believe I listed quarterly or biannually for up to two years.

So any questions?

So my first question is you're recommending that we deny the application.

Is that correct?

Yes, unless these conditions are met.

Okay.

And that's why you're listing the conditions there.

Is if we did motion to approve it, those would be the conditions that you would recommend.

Of course, aligning with the city code.

Okay.

But otherwise, you feel like there's enough justification to deny the application on its face.

Yes.

Mainly due to the consistent noncompliance and the fact that they have been there for 30 years, but with new code updates and this lapse in the business license, we're able to come back to this and compare it with the rest of the residential population that's in that area, and see that isn't necessarily consistent with that area if they aren't following these conditions.

Okay.

Do our other planning commission members have questions of our staff here?

So it appears that the owner of the business will not be living on the property.

Is that a problem?

So when it comes to the application, you need to just have a bona fide resident that is running the business.

And having his son being there as the bona fide resident running the business according to the home app the CUP, that would be all right.

As long as he gets also considered the owner of the commercial vehicle that is on the property.

It switches from bona fide resident to owner in the wording of that section.

Other questions?

I don't have any questions.

Okay.

Um I'm interested in this uh the condition you have to provide a road damage bond.

Um that would uh well, how would you assess that?

How would how would that compare as like some you know say that somebody's got a uh a D switch rock and they have a big trailer that they're driving every other weekend across that how would how would that assessment change in in those comparisons?

The difference with this is that for this business license, they are having a commercial vehicle that is constantly moving through the area.

And if you look at the pictures that were via it in exhibit A, it is a large tree removal truck, which is heavier than a diesel vehicle holding a trailer.

Generally, a residential diesel vehicle will not be driving, pulling that trailer every single day.

And this vehicle will be leaving the site every single day, moving through the area, which is a cul de sac that doesn't generally receive wear and tear, otherwise, other than the normal residential movement of vehicles.

Have there been complaints or concerns about road damage?

There's not been complaints as of yet about road damage.

It was something that based on my previous experience, I've seen other planning commission's input for a home occupation that has this amount of thoroughfare of driving their truck through the area.

Okay.

Any other questions?

I do have one.

Um my concern is um with staff's recommendation to deny the the request.

I feel like state law does not really allow us to uh deny a conditional use permit because the presumption on a conditional use permit is that they are a permitted use unless there's some type of detrimental impact that has been demonstrated.

What is that uh detrimental impact that uh you've identified that could not be mitigated?

I didn't see that in the findings.

I believe the main thing is that according to the land use matrix, if they are storing more than one commercial vehicle on the site, then it would be considered an equipment RV vehicle storage, which is not a permitted use under the land matrix for R18.

And because of that, if they weren't willing to follow those conditions for the conditional use permit, they would be considered not the home occupation to, but the equipment RV vehicle storage, which is not a permitted use.

Okay.

That's why I moved for the denial if they're not willing to follow the conditions.

But alternatively, if we did approve it, we could make that a condition of approval is what you're suggesting.

Yes.

Okay.

Sorry if I placed that incorrectly.

Okay.

Very good.

All right.

Any other questions before we make a motion?

All right, we're not gonna actually make a motion, but we'll conclude that that portion.

Let's vote.

Thank you so much for um taking the time to uh prepare that staff report and make that presentation to us.

Um we appreciate your efforts in doing so.

Tell us about um your approach to inter uh to reviewing that CUP application, preparing that staff report, and then making this presentation today.

What parts felt most comfortable to you?

What parts were most challenging?

And did, excuse me, did you have all the information that you needed?

Honestly, I mean to go over my process.

First thing I went to was I went to the code.

I went through the home occupation two standards as well as the CUP standards, and then also looked at the other residential standards which were connected to that, like residential parking as well as the land use matrix, things like that.

Luckily, there's a lot of parody in your code when it comes to that, that the home occupation to is consistent with residential parking, and they have the same wording across different sections.

So based off of that, then comparing it to his request, I was able to see well, he has three commercial vehicles there.

It's possible that businesses have grown in the past 30 years and now it's no longer in compliance with our current code.

And so from there, I started making a case of pulling the different code references and then placing them into the staff report.

To be honest, I haven't written too many staff reports in my time, is I did a lot of other writing when it came to site line review and applications.

Then from there, I just went in, listed everything that could be inconsistent with the home occupation too, made sure those were listed as conditions, and then listed my findings of the things that were in non-compliance.

Okay.

Took a little second to get my head around, but I feel like I was able to overcome that.

And then presentations when it comes to this is always a little bit on the harder side.

I never know if I should include all my findings on the slides or not.

So I decided to opt for not as much, and that we can mainly talk based off the staff report and listing of code that I have.

Okay.

I would have loved to have the name of the son that'll be living on the property who's going to be the person running the business, you could say, and whether he is going to be considered the owner of the business or not.

It wasn't stated one way or the other when it comes to that.

Some more pictures actually showing the equipment storage would have been great, as well as a site plan of the site, so that if we needed to, we could look into concrete percentages when it comes to covering of the lot that's being used for the vehicle storage and other things like that.

Um parking and things like that.

Great.

Okay.

The next questions are not having to do with the specific case that you just presented to us.

More scenario questions, general interview questions.

So the first one is imagine you have reviewed and approved a building permit, and later it was discovered that a setback requirement had been missed during your review after construction had begun.

How would you respond to that situation?

And what steps would you take to help prevent similar issues in the future?

That's really rough if I miss the setback requirements.

But I'd make sure to contact the person.

If it's already been approved, then there's only so much we can do at that point.

We can't reneg on it based off of our mistake, but I would make sure that in the future I would be making sure to look at those setbacks and confirm that they are within the requirements, whether it's PUE or otherwise.

And then I would communicate this blender with them so that they would know that in the future they would need to comply with these setback requirements.

Tell us about a time you had to explain a difficult regulation or decision to a frustrated applicant or resident.

I have I never got the chance to work with as many applicants when it came to those sorts of things at my previous job, but working with the municipality, there was an experience I had with the recent updates to accessory dwelling units.

There was a municipality I was working with that was not wanting to update some match state code and having to talk them through the updates to the accessory and dwelling units and that they have that they are allowed now and that they don't have as much control over applications and things like that took a second.

But I made sure to explain it simply that it's not me and my company, which was Johnson Demill Engineering bringing this to them saying, hey, we think you should do this.

It's the this is state regulation, and we're just trying to help you with best planning practices and help you to be able to comply with state regulations while also making it so that it can work for your community.

So when working on a team, what qualities do you believe makes someone especially effective and reliable?

I think communication is a big one.

Um being able to talk with your teammates if you're working on a project with several other departments, being able to timely respond to emails as well as being able to answer questions when you have them.

And then on top of that, just making sure that they're being timely with deadlines.

Um depending on the sphere you're at, you can have a lot of different projects all going on at the same time, and making sure that that teammate or me in that situation, if I'm that teammate, that I'm making sure I'm juggling the different deadlines and making sure that they're all being fulfilled on time.

So I'd say communication as well as timeliness or prioritization.

So the next question is what type of feedback have you received that has helped you grow professionally, and what did you change as a result?

Um I think one of the feedback I had was specifically about communication.

I'm someone that believes I can take care of a problem when I get it.

So I will put my nose to the grindstone and try to work through the project.

And sometimes I do that without asking all the questions that I need to first.

So my previous supervisor brought it up of hey, if you made sure that you had more communication to start out, then when we got to the review process, there would be less things that we need to fix.

And I believe I was able to take that to heart.

And when I start a project now, I try my best to review it and then ask all the questions first before I start getting to work on it so that I know that I can fulfill it to the best of my ability, and that I'm not going off on a wild goose chase.

If you had multiple projects with competing deadlines and not enough time to complete everything, how would you prioritize your work?

Well, first I would communicate that with my supervisor, let them know, hey, I have these deadlines, and I only believe that I'll be able to complete three of the four, whatever it is I feel I'll be able to complete, and then looking at them, knowing which one would be higher priority, whether it's a CUP permit or something else.

I would ask my supervisor, hey, which ones have the highest priority for me to complete, and is there someone else that is able to help me to be able to complete these projects?

So going from there, I would follow the supervisor's guidance to be able to work on those projects and the priority that they would like them complete.

Um you've probably noticed uh planning has a broad there's a lot of different things you can imagine planning, right?

Oh, yeah.

What are what is the uh what are the aspects of planning that you're most interested in in the long term versus short term or I think I really like when when it comes to like cerebrally, I love long-term planning.

Um before I was a planner, I was working as a working towards becoming a civil engineer.

And when it comes to the designing of larger spaces, I think that planning has a good niche when it comes to that when it comes to community planning and long-range development to make sure that the city is all designed in a way that is best for the population.

I think that a lot of the rules and regulations we can put now can help future generations down the line, and that's the thing that for me I think is the coolest or most important part of planning.

Um of course, there's all the little minutia that comes to that, but if it all has that goal of helping future generations, then it's great.

Great, thank you.

Well, awesome.

Um let's see.

Brian or James, did you guys have any questions that you wanted to add?

I have a question last time in the in uh round one.

You talked about, and if you work for Jones, did you know?

You still work for that?

No, I do not.

Um I was laid off about a month and a half ago.

We were honestly everything was going very slow with the introduction of AOGs and a lot of the role clients we were working with.

We were having a hard time drumming up work.

And I believe because of that is what I was laid off, but it was 100% communicated with me.

There were conversations about performance and other things, but I believe it was mainly connected to the lack of work that we were receiving as a firm when it came to planning.

Okay.

Do you have any questions of us?

Um I asked most of my questions last time, honestly.

Okay.

Um, but you said that this next Friday this went out her hear your results.

Yeah.

Yeah, so as far as next steps, uh, today we're hoping to wrap up our second round of interviews.

Um, and then we hope to have a decision no later than Friday.

Um so you'll be hearing from one of us uh by then.

Um and if there's any additional information that we need from you, we'll let you know as well.

Definitely.

Um I guess one question I could have would be based off this staff report and presentation, where would be the main areas where I can improve for future staff reports presentations for playing commission?

Just at least top off the top of your head.

Okay.

Anyone from the panel here?

So um one of the things that we noticed.

So your recommendation versus and that that's something you probably picked up on during the the the uh presentation and such, but um that the state or the statute that you that you recorded in your uh staff report.

Um that's kind of an overturn.

But there's a different thing.

You can now look at conditional uses as very much permitted use.

Okay.

So I think your understanding is right, like you know, as as proposed, yeah, that doesn't fit our ordinance.

And so in that regard, you could say, yeah, we could we're gonna deny it.

Um there's there's probably some other statutes as well as some other things that are that I would apply as well to deny that.

But by and large, it's very hard to, you know, if you can't prove that you can mitigate all of the negative impacts, which is very difficult to do for a municipality, then you really have to approve that conditional use.

So the best way to go about it, and you had the right steps, and you'll say, well, if you're gonna approve it, then here's the conditions of approval.

Yeah.

So it would be switching the same deny to approve.

Yeah.

Approved with conditions.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Definitely.

And being a little more clear in that direction that as staff, you want to you don't want to cause confusion for the public or the decision makers.

And your motion kind of played it both ways.

Yes.

And so that we wanted to see uh a more clear, this is a staff's recommendation.

This is what you want to do.

Now you can always provide an alternative scenario as well that also clearly defines if you choose to deny, these are the findings for denial versus these are the findings for approval.

Okay.

And conditions that we would want to uh have for that.

So having that clear distinction would be would be a help.

Definitely.

Great.

Any other thoughts that you had?

Sounds good.

So yeah.

Um other things that uh you guys want to bring up or that uh you want to bring up for us, Michael?

I don't think there's any questions for me.

Okay.

Great.

Well, thank you so much for your time and coming down.

You did a great job.

And uh appreciate the time and getting to know you a little bit better and and helping us in in this process.

Definitely.

Awesome.

Thank you so much, Michael.

And thank you for your time.

Okay.

Okay.

Thank you.

So he works for a planner for a sibling.

Is that we used to?

Is that used to be all have a still laid off?

I didn't include it.