Good evening, everyone.

Welcome to the Tempe City Council and Tempe Historic Preservation Commission joint meeting.

Council meetings can be watched in real time via Cox Cable Channel 11 and at TEPI.gov slash Tempe11.

Members of the public may also attend the meeting virtually through Microsoft Teams.

Let's go to item number two here.

Since we've basically already done item number one, which was the call to order.

We're going to do the Tempe native land acknowledgement statement video.

And I'll turn to Jason.

We acknowledge that Tempe lies on the ancestral land of the Native peoples who have lived here since time immemorial.

The ancestral land of the autumn and deposit stretches far beyond the boundaries of our city.

Embodying cultural values that are integral to their identity and way of life.

The author MPosh continue to maintain a deep spiritual connection to this land.

We embrace the responsibility of caring for these places and vow to uphold this commitment in all our actions.

Thank you so much.

So before we get to the introductions of all the folks around the table, just want to make a note that Council Burke is virtual as our Commissioner's Learner and Karuka.

So just wanted to note that for the folks here sitting in the audience and for those who will be watching this meeting recorded later on.

With that said, though, I want to make sure that we can go around the table and do some introductions.

So I guess Commissioner Williams, I'm gonna start with you, and we'll work our way around.

So if you'd like to turn the microphone on and introduce yourself and then pass it to Commissioner Melcher.

Hello, I'm Commissioner Ray Lynn Williams.

I'm fulfilling the four Southern Tribes Cultural Resource Working Group Representative.

I am uh Commissioner Christie Melcher.

Hi, Commissioner Aaron Davis, thank you.

Uh I'm a member at large, but I work as an archaeologist at the State Historic Preservation Office.

Uh Commissioner Evan Sana.

I joined as of September of last year, and I also work at ASU in the old president's cottage, the second um oldest property on ASU campus.

Dave Facler.

Been around for a while with the city and uh this commission.

So Commission Chair Mariah Jones, uh professional member in history.

Thank you.

Uh Corey Woods, Mayor.

Dorian Garland, Vice Mayor.

Arlene Chin, City Council member.

Jennifer Adams, City Council member.

And Nikki Amberg, City Council member.

Good afternoon, Rosa and Chelsea, City Manager.

Hello there, Eric Anderson, City Attorney.

Kara Dorastia, City Clerk.

Thank you so much, everyone.

We're gonna move on to item number four, presentation and discussion items.

The first one is item four A, Downtown Historic Core Plan status.

I see Dr.

Lechner.

Good evening.

Okay, good evening.

Uh thank you, Mayor Woods.

Council members, Chair Jones, uh, and HPC members.

Before we open things up to uh discussion, I just wanted to provide a brief update on where things stand with the downtown historic core plan preparations.

Uh the city consultant Moore uh Icofano and Goltzman, or MIG, uh, and our subconsultant, Poster Mirto McDonald, PMM, have now moved into the next phase of preparing the plan.

In late 2025 and early this year, MIG and PMM focused on gathering feedback from staff, the development review commission, the HPC, various stakeholders, tribal communities, and members of the public on the boundary for the historic core, and preliminary ideas for what should be included in the plan.

MIG and PMM have begun drafting the plan, including a preliminary outline and set up guidelines that you have in front of you today.

On March 4th, a second round of public meetings, along with an in-person meeting with downtown developers.

Property owners and business owners was held to discuss the preliminary guidelines.

Later in the month, MIG and PMM made their third round of presentations to meetings of the Historic Preservation Commission and the Development Review Commission.

MIG and PMM are currently in the process of meeting with stakeholders and tribes to discuss the preliminary guidelines.

After receiving feedback from various parties earlier in the process, the city and consultant have redoubled their efforts to contact members of stakeholder groups by sending them multiple emails and reaching out by phone when necessary to solicit their participation in group or individual meetings.

And that depends on the stakeholders' availability and preference.

Staff has also communicated with members of stakeholder groups to encourage their participation in the meetings.

The goal is for the consultant to draft or complete a full draft of the plan by May in time for another round of commission and public meetings.

This will be followed by a presentation to council and summer for adoption.

However, both staff and consultant are aware that this timeline may need to be adjusted.

And we are committed to ensuring the that staff, the public, stakeholders, commissions, and council have an adequate opportunity to shape the final version of the plan before it's brought before council for adoption.

So I look forward to hearing Council and the HBC's thoughts on the plan and the preliminary guidelines.

If you'd like to review any content or maps.

Thank you, Dr.

Lecter.

Appreciate it.

Which will move us to item 4B, then, which is discussion of downtown Historic Corps Plan Draft Guidelines.

So I don't know how if folks had an opportunity to see this document before.

I know some folks have been actively involved in this process, so they've seen the draft as it's uh continue to kind of make its way through the process.

Um I should also ask Madam Clerk, is there a way for the people online to, I guess, sort of bump you if they'd like to speak as well?

Um not at this time.

But they can submit written comments.

No, I'm saying for Councilmember Keating of the two commissioners who are on the Okay, yes.

Okay, because I guess I won't be able to see if they want to chime in, unless they text me, I guess.

And I think everyone has my number in the entire city of Tempe.

So anyone have any thoughts they would like to share regarding item 4B, any questions, concerns, clarifications.

I know uh Dr.

Lecter's here.

I see Ryan LeBake from the Community Development Department.

If there are things that uh council members would like to ask, or members of the Historic Preservation Commission or any concerns.

We know this is a work in progress.

Yes.

Um Councilmember Chin.

No go ahead.

Thank you, Mayor.

I I guess we'll start with this.

Um first of all, I thank everyone for their work to this point on it, and I'm glad to hear it's a work in progress.

Something that I'm hearing from both those volunteers involved in the historic preservation efforts and serve on the commission, as well as uh stakeholders in the development community.

They don't feel like they've had an opportunity to work together.

And in Tempe, to me, that is one of the uh core ways to approach the any any challenge at hand or any projects and programs at hand.

And so while that may bring its own level of complexity, I think it's well worth it to make the effort to have everyone in the same room at the same time.

And that would be something I encourage.

I'm really trying hard to work in the word Euclidean because Vic Linoff's in the room, and I want to flex and show them that I learned three years ago what the Euclidean model of zoning is and how.

It's it's not where we go today.

It's a mixture of all right, thank you.

But really, sorry, I didn't want to stray far from that.

But let's get people in the same room together that at first gl at first glance you think they hold opposite perspectives, but they don't.

I've heard from stakeholders from many sides of this issue that want to work together.

So I'll start with that.

Thank you.

Vice Mayor Garlet, then Council Member Hodge.

That was pretty much what I was going to suggest.

Because I've heard the same things that it would be nice that we do these separate.

Oh, thank you.

It's nice that we do these, um, that we've done this outreach and that we're going to continue to do the outreach, and I really appreciate that.

Um but I had heard the same thing that there are people that are uh typically you think what are opposite really want to be in the same room together to have some of these discussions, and I think it's actually makes it healthier because they could convince each other one way or another on a certain specific topic.

So you know, historic preservation is really, really important to our city.

We've talked about it for a long time.

We always talk about it, and this document's gonna help us to get there, but I'd like to see if we could have more collaboration in the process.

Thank you.

Sounds good.

Thank you.

Council Brahaj, then Council Member Brike.

Okay.

It's coming down to the same conversation because I was going to say something similar that we do need it.

But I also want, I would like to have like an update when everybody gets together.

What we we're making this full decision, but we're not hearing from every single person in the audience.

So I would love to get um you know uh update on how the meetings are going when we get all the stakeholders together to hear from.

So I'm just curious to add.

And I guess I have a quick question, because I know we did already have some meetings.

How was those meetings conducted and who was actually at those meetings when we had them?

Thank you, Council Hodge.

Uh, can anyone from staff, maybe uh Ryan or Dr.

Lechner, could you speak to that about who was sort of in those original meetings?

Yeah, thank you for the question, uh, Councilmember Hodge.

Uh yeah, so there's been a variety of stakeholder groups that have been contacted.

Um I'll just I'll I'll uh I may not be including all of them, but they kind of fall broadly under the category of property owners and business owners, um ASU office of the campus architect, uh downtown developers, um, downtown, let's see, oh excuse me, uh historic preservation uh individuals of people from the Tempe Historic Property, or excuse me, Tempe Historic Preservation Foundation, uh as well as kind of other historic preservation professionals who are kind of not affiliated with a foundation, um downtown organizations.

So that would be like DTA, uh Chamber of Commerce, Tempe Tourism, um, Timby sister cities, believe Tempe Sister Cities was kind of not included in the first round um of consultation, which we which we you know understood was a deficiency, and uh we know wasn't any due to any um purposeful exclusion.

Um it's just that I think the um consultant uh you know they kind of fell through the cracks because you know the staff didn't kind of point the consultant to this group, which didn't kind of fall into some of the other categories.

They're not a property owner, they're not a developer, they're a tenant, but they're obviously a very important tenant um in the in the downtown.

So uh I've had some uh correspondence uh with uh a member of Tippi Sister Cities who may be here this evening, but um uh but that that outreach issue with them specifically will be remedied in the second the second round of outreach for stakeholders.

Um another group that's being included that wasn't this time last uh wasn't uh included in the first round is the uh Arizona Heritage Preservation uh Youth Council.

So this is a group of young people who have you know an interest in historic preservation.

Um we were kind of alerted to their uh interest um in uh providing feedback by the State Historic Preservation Office just a few weeks ago.

And we thought it would be really thought it would be really useful to kind of get some input from you know younger members of the community um, you know, who are gonna shape uh what the downtown looks like, you know, in the in the future.

So um along with that, um we've uh consultant has met uh multiple times, at least twice so far, scheduling a third meeting with uh tribal nations, specifically Gila River Indian community, Salt River Pima Maricopa Indian community as well.

Um I think there's some you know some criticisms of some of the early outreach efforts, and I think that those are those are fair fair criticisms.

Um I think sometimes just because you know you send an email or multiple emails and people don't respond, that's that's still ultimately you know on staff to ensure that we're getting a good representation of uh of people participating.

So um so I accept I accept responsibility for that um uh you know on behalf of uh along with I would I would say uh the consultant.

So we are working really hard to remedy that.

Um one thing I will say though is that this point that we're at now is a really crucial point.

It's now now we actually have kind of guidelines, things that we can really chew on, you know, before uh, you know, earlier consultations were very much uh based on the lines of you know what what would you like to see in the plan?

Important questions that we wish you know we had had been able to have more input on and and gotten more input on.

However, um I think at this point is you know, now you know, we've since we've made those corrections, um, we're at a really crucial point where we'll be able to get a good amount of feedback um uh on some you know very specific again draft guidelines, but something that people can actually wrestle with and and talk through.

I think before it may have seemed a little more um uh you know, on unformed or nebulous, and so uh there may have been maybe uh I'm not speaking for everyone, but maybe a less interest in participating, but now it's you know there's actually something on paper.

Um I think people are kind of starting to say, okay, well, you know, what's this all about?

And yeah, I want to I want to have a conversation about this.

So yeah, we're looking forward to that.

Um, I I I could go through more details of it, but I just got a report from our consultant today about where things stand with the outreach.

Um, but we've got you know, we've already had you know meetings with property owners and business owners, um, had several participants.

We have another meeting with them pending.

We've had 19 respondents out of you know, 96 invitees.

Um that's just one example of one stakeholder group.

Um, and we're continuing to uh to work closely and make sure that we're you know trying multiple times to reach out to people and using multiple methods as well.

So if that's too much information, I apologize, but um I wanted to try to answer that in some detail.

Sounds good.

Thank you so much.

Uh follow up, Council Brahaj.

Yeah, my follow-up question is for us on council.

If we're reading this and trying to understand it, it's gonna be extremely hard.

Is there a way you can break it down like maybe a one-page or you put online so people can kind of follow the process, even not at the meetings, but they can understand it, you know, because having them to try to understand this is going to be a little bit harder, kind of you know, like a one-pager where we're at, who we've talked to.

So that the community can follow along, and they don't say that we, you know, we kind of did this in a closed shell without anybody knowing.

I think we should bring the community along with us in this, and I think maybe maybe a one-pager or something we put on a website that we think people can start to under, you know, understand what what's going on, what where we add in the process, and you know, just follow along because there's gonna be people who are interested, but they'll never make the meetings for some one reason or another, but they still want to be like to be a part of it.

So I'm just wondering if we can just kind of break it through piece by piece as we go along so we can carry the community along with it with the process.

Yes, that's a that's a good suggestion.

There actually is a document that that is currently on the website, uh dedicated to this plan, the city website that does kind of break down the outreach process for the first part um uh of the process for the first part of the outreach, I should say.

So um it may not be it may be slightly more than a page, maybe a page and a half or two, but it's it's I think that's essentially what you're what you're looking for is available.

And we'll and that will information will be continue to be updated with you know, once this round is completed, uh we'll make sure that the developer, excuse me, the uh consultant um creates a similar document to keep people informed about where things stand at this point.

Sounds good.

Thank you.

Councilmember Keating, then Councilmember Amberg.

Thank you, Mayor.

Um I I agree with everything that's been said thus far.

I do like Councilmember Hodges' idea of a more digestible summary for the community.

I understand that there is already that work in progress, so I think that's fantastic.

Because it is a very complicated and nuanced issue as we move forward, and anything we can do to make it uh more palatable to our everyday residents who maybe don't live in and breathe um these sort of issues as we do, I think that that is a net benefit.

Uh one of the things I've always known about Tabi, but I love about the city is it it's always it's a collection of very smart, passionate people.

And I understand that there are real um uh challenges with historical preservation and marrying that with development moving forward.

But in my time on council, there's been some pretty big issues that we face together.

Somehow we always seem to come to some sort of a resolution.

So I have no doubt that the people challenged with this, and including myself and my colleagues, um, the the historical preservation commission and all the stakeholders that are involved, will be able to um smartly prepare Tempe for the challenges of the future while making sure that we are preserving our very real and very um pertinent and significant past.

So I think this is a great um stepping stone, and I'm looking forward to the continuing engagement that has already been outlined.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilmember Amberg.

Thank you, Mayor.

Um, I know a lot of people know, I mean, I've been in the legislative process a very long time.

And this is one of those issues that brings a lot of passion, and there people are very passionate on both sides.

But I'm telling you, you know, compromise is the key to getting anything done.

Uh so folks that are on these sides that are dug in, because some of them are.

I'm just gonna lay it out there.

Some of the stuff that I've gotten from both sides, they sound like they're dug in.

The developers, the property owners, city staff, historic preservationists.

So if you're gonna be in the room, you have to be willing to compromise, do some soul searching before you go in there because you're going to have to compromise.

Not everybody's gonna be happy, and not everybody is gonna be mad.

You're going to have both.

And if you're not, then honestly don't think that you've done your job.

Uh nobody should be coming out of something like this when there's such a space right now between the two sides.

Totally happy or totally mad.

So I'm just asking and begging you whenever you go in there, go in with an open mind, knowing that not everybody feels the same way that you do, and that's okay.

Thank you.

Madam Chair, and then I'll go back to Council Brahge.

Thank you, Mayor Woods.

I would like to pose a question to council if you'll entertain me.

We don't often get time with you, so I'd like to pick your brain while you're here next to us.

Where do you see this planning document?

How do you see this planning document interacting in downtown Tempe?

Where are your priorities?

Where do you see this historic preservation doc planning document fitting in with downtown Tempe as it currently is?

Council, you want to answer that when you want me to take it or what do you want to do?

Okay.

Yeah, I mean, my general immediate off-the-cuff thought is trying to find a way to preserve the historic buildings that are not just frankly throughout the downtown, although that's what we're talking about right now, but frankly, the historic buildings throughout the entire community.

Because as we all know that once those buildings are taken down for whatever reason, that history is lost, and you know, we don't ever get to get it back.

So, for my perspective, when I look at a lot of the historic structures and historic buildings in the city of Tempe, especially in the downtown, we need to do everything we can to actually preserve those.

That's one of the reasons I know why, you know, myself with the council a little earlier uh opted to try to purchase historic buildings in the downtown.

It was really for two reasons.

One, it was to try to find a way to preserve uh the Tempe National Bank building, but then secondly, uh it was to make sure that we could obviously get the rents down because I know there's a portion of that in the document too, talking about trying to find ways to curate more independent local kind of mom and pop businesses.

And one of the issues has been, frankly, as we've gotten bigger ownership, and this is not everyone.

We have a lot of private sector partners who work very well with the city council and work very well with city staff.

But then we have some, and Councilmember Amberg and Council Member Chin and I have talked about this uh pretty extensively.

Then we have some who just sort of see Tempe as a cash cow.

They're not in any way, shape, or form connected to the community.

And it's all about hey, I think I can get this kind of rent that you could get in the Scottsdale quarter area, or I'm gonna try to get a rent that I could get in Kearlan.

And I'm going, this is not Kierlan, this is downtown Tempe.

It's a completely different environment, and our residents, frankly, expect something very different.

So, from my perspective, it's trying to find a way to not lose some of the historic character in the downtown.

It's trying to make sure that we can preserve those structures that have actually been deemed historic, whether it's local or nationally.

Uh, but it's also trying to make sure that as I think as Councilmember Amberg was getting to with her point that we can find a way to incorporate all of these things into a document where maybe everyone walks out and they're 70 to 80% happy with what we actually developed.

I agree with her.

It can't be a situation where you know any side walks in the room saying, look, if I don't get 100% of what I want, I'm gonna be furious and never come back to the city council ever again.

Like it needs to be something where I think you know both sides go in and have sort of a discussion with one another and figure out here are the things that really are the non-negotiables that I think we need to uh reach.

Like it needs to be something where I think you know both sides go in and have sort of a discussion with one another and figure out here are the things that really are the non-negotiables that I think we need to uh reach, and here are some of the things that I might be frankly willing to bargain a little bit and negotiate on because you know, development is going to continue to happen in the downtown.

Uh, you know, ASU uh continues to get bigger, it's the largest public university in the country, 60,000 students here, right in our backyard, and it's continuing to grow.

We obviously don't know that Maricopa County is still one of the fastest growing counties in the entire country, so more people are going to continue to come here, which means the council is going to need to provide more housing to sort of address all the people who move to our great city.

Um, but at the same time, that should not completely, I agree, come at the expense of raising historic buildings and losing all the historic character that's made Tempe such an exceptional city to live for over 150 years.

So I know that's sort of a long explanation, but that's sort of my off-the-cuff kind of perspective.

I think there are ways of blending all of these things together, but I do think it's probably gonna take some compromise all around the table and throughout the entire community to reach a document that we can all basically say, I feel like what I had to say and what my general vision was, I feel like that's represented in here.

Thank you.

Anyone else in council?

That was my one more question.

Council Roger.

Okay, I do.

I have well and and I agree with you, Mayor.

I think it is it's a it's a balancing act.

It's uh it's a balancing act between preserving what is Tempe and also developing and what Tempe is going to become.

So uh my question is to that is um when we talked about like all the you know stakeholders in the conversation.

I heard that you did one set for like the youth.

But I also would encourage you to bring in the mayor's youth advisory commission because that's one of the things that they talk about too is how how to preserve, because we're talking about a future that some of us we probably won't we won't outlive it.

It's the youth that's gonna be the ones that's gonna the things that we're preserving now, they will be the ones that actually will be the ones talking about in the future.

If you don't have them at the table, then you're really not talking to the future, right?

You're not talking about who's gonna actually tell their kids about the pre, you know, what's preserved, what the history is.

So I just want to to talk um to bring that to your kind situation, and also how are the our seniors like do we have anybody in there that we could talk to have actually lived in this city of Tempe for years and years and years?

Are we reaching out to those that that that group, that community of people, to talk about to help them to help us create what is historical, what is not, you know, because a lot of it, I I lived my whole life by Tempe right by Peterson Park, right?

I was very lucky.

I had something historical by my, you know, that I can walk into and see at any time.

My house actually, the fence behind was my house was right by Peterson Park.

I didn't even realize how historical that was until I was an adult.

So I think that in in hindsight, we also need to work with our education community to get to understand what they know and what's gonna what's out there also because this is all coming back.

Like I'm just trying to pull it, is like we're talking about what we're doing now is building what's gonna happen in the future.

So I just want to make sure that we have all the stakeholders involved.

So I guess I'm asking about our seniors, and I'm asking about our youth to make sure that just because they don't have a certain group or something they belong to, that their voices are still being heard in this predicament of going on because it's their history that we're talking about with a seniors, and it's their future with the youth.

So I just want to put that out there.

Those are great suggestions.

Thank you.

You know, one other thing I want to go to uh Vice Mayor Garland too, and I um talking about it, a lot of folks, I know Council Burke Keating talked about this pretty extensively about the notion of the best ideas in this community come when we're all working together towards a shared goal.

One of the things I would love is when this is all sort of said and done is for the ability to, between the you know, the city council, the HPC, even folks in the development community and property owners, being able to go out and collectively tell that story about kind of what has been done here and what the downtown looks like now and what our vision is moving forward.

Because I tell people all the time, sometimes as mayor, I might be the right spokesperson for something, and sometimes I'm the worst spokesperson because people think I'm always trying to sell them a used car.

Um so frankly, I would love to make sure that like we're all sort of after this is over, being able to say, hey, look, we're all going to basically read off the same sheet of music and say we came to this document together after having conversations over a period of months or perhaps a year.

Uh because I was having a conversation with someone uh early today, and it was a really nice conversation with a woman uh at a grocery store, and she said to me, um, you know, one of the concerns that I have, Mayor, is that you know, in the downtown, and I know this isn't specifically related to historic preservation, but it's connected to the downtown.

So, you know, I've been here since 1980, and you know, I don't really go downtown anymore because you know, there's too many corporate businesses and too many chains.

And I'm like, well, but ma'am, 69% of the businesses in downtown Tempe are independent local mom and pop shops.

Like I said, that at one point downtown Tempe, when I first moved here in 2003, it kind of had taken that turn where everything was sort of PF Changs and a lot of other chains, but now I'm going to places like Filthy Animal and the Plant Mill and Last Rodeo and Masala Maniac, and all of these are local businesses owned by local people who desperately frankly need all of us as Tempe residents, along with visitors to go into those shops and spend money so they can continue to sustain themselves.

So that's one of the things that I, you know, where I think that sometimes I'm always sort of shouting that from the rooftops, but I think that if all of us collectively, after kind of working on this together, can talk about also the, you know, talk about the historic uh core plan, but also talk about some of those other elements about how to promote the businesses and the folks who have who've either been there for quite some time, um, you know, or frankly, some of the people who've come more recently, but especially those who are local, I think that would be tremendously helpful, and I think would help to break some of those narratives that I still hear sometimes that I know frankly don't necessarily represent what the downtown is in the year 2026.

But but that's just sort of once again in the spirit of us all being able to work together and agree upon kind of a core set of principles.

But I'm I'm excited about that possibility, quite frankly.

Uh council member oh, Vice Mayor Garland and Council Chin.

Thank you.

I I was gonna kind of answer a little bit of your question.

So for me, we just talked about how um how important historic preservation is.

To me, one of the things I absolutely love the best is our adaptive reuse.

That to me is the best way that we can preserve and still use the properties that we have.

I have huge concerns um, specifically the Gonzalez Martinez home, since that was damaged just recently.

I think the the amount of time that it takes for us to preserve that, I mean, to get something built around it to protect it, it's been taking too long.

Um I think about the the train station.

We were supposed to have a development put over there, and now the train station is out there and it's exposed.

Those things concern me.

Because if we really want to protect our historic preservation, we need to be bringing attention to those things.

Um and so I those things are that's what's important to me.

Um I was gonna say I really appreciate the fact that you're reaching out to the tribal communities because nobody has a longer history here than they do.

So I think that's important because it's not just it's not just building structures, it's also places and peaks and mountains and things that are important to the tribal communities.

So I I really appreciate you you um reaching out to them.

Um but I you know I think there is some way for all of us to be able to find some common ground.

But the thing, my my grandfather was an architect and he designed a lot of buildings that are in Casa Grande.

Um, and one of the things that he told us is once these buildings are taken down, you can't put them back up.

And so I think we it's such a careful, caring thing that we need to be doing in with this document to make sure that we are not going to lose those buildings.

So um, I think that's uh something that I think is really important, and I'm I'm glad you guys are doing this.

I know that the work put into this, and I have to be perfectly honest.

I really try sometimes, I really try to make sure that I read the whole entire documents before we have meetings.

There was so much in here.

I was getting a little bit lost.

But I I appreciate it, and I will continue to read it, and I appreciate that you're gonna continue to do the outreach for this, because this is really important.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Councilmember Chin, then Council Burhaj.

Thank you, Mayor.

Um let me let me say that, and uh and I will answer partially the question about what do I hope to see.

And so far, I hear a lot of discussion and I see a lot of uh things written about buildings.

And that's important.

Vice Mayor Garland just hit on something that I connect with in the historic preservation of stories in Tempe is important.

And don't just focus on buildings, right?

Help us capture those stories.

The working with our local tribal leaders to honor tribal land, absolutely important, but more important, not more, just as importantly.

Why?

Let's talk about the communities that lived here and how early on, how they were so critical in the structure and the architecture and the trade and the waterways and what they did and the canals that still exist because they created those.

Let's not get so uh as um Councilmember Amber said, let's not get so entrenched in singular ideology about let's fight about a building.

Let's capture the memory.

I'm old enough and have lived in Tempe long enough that I remember a lot of the history of Tempe also.

I want to hear the stories.

I think those are the stories that need to be shared.

Something else I've learned, right?

Often I see gentlemen, and we talk about the different there were 13 original barrios in Tempe.

There is one remaining, right?

That's a fact that I learned.

Let's tell the stories.

Let's talk about how our um the people that were here before us built and shape Tempe.

Let's not limit ourselves to buildings and structures.

Thank you, Councilberchin.

Council Perhaj?

Yeah.

Thank you.

I totally agree with you, Councilmember Chim, because even if we, you know, we can preserve it, but anything can happen to a building, right?

If we don't have the information, that building goes away.

So I one thing I want to also talk about is how we work with our developers in our team in this too, because if we're going, there's no way that we can't develop in the downtown corridor.

No way.

But we work with the developers.

We just had a uh uh a development that literally took the house of tricks.

How many of us have ate at the House of Tricks or did something there?

I went there for my prom.

But we now know that we preserved it and it can go to another, you know, it's not gonna be the same house of tricks, but we have the building.

So I think the conversation is when we do um, you know, as communities, people just see the development community is oh my god, they're the devil, we don't talk to them.

But we I think more importantly, I think that's when we need to come to the table and talk more together.

Because the more you the more we compromise and talk to each other, the less is a less chance of us not getting, you're never gonna get to a side one way or the other if you already walk in the door saying, they're bad, I'm good, I'm right, and that's it.

We when with what happened with what Sam Gordon, literally, we went back and forth for years with this, and we came to a conclusion that we actually saved and preserved the building.

So I just want to say that when we have these conversations, we can't leave the people out who's building in our city on these conversations.

We gotta be able to bring them to the table and be able to have actually listen to what they have to say and actually tell them what's on your mind, because if we just go say, oh, they're just tearing down everything, they don't know that that's something you know could be historical by the time it gets to them, because everybody's not in the city of feet and live in Tempe who actually develops in Tempe.

So they don't know our historical problem uh what we have as historical or what we have means something to me.

I was at a meeting and I was sitting there talking about that jack in a box on Mill and Southern talking about the jack in a box, and I'm my heart was breaking because I did more time um hanging out in front of that jack in a box when I was in high school and college than anything else.

But I'm just saying, those are things that you that we can talk about and say.

So I just think that when we're having these conversations, we need to have the people who actually do the developing in these conversations to be able to talk and listen to what the community is saying, also.

Thank you.

Okay, so I've got next up uh Council Burke Keating, then I've got Commissioner Williams and then Commissioner Melcher.

Thank you, Mayor.

Uh, with regards to the Jack in the Box, I do want to say uh that T-Mobile store next to the Jack in the Box is where I got my Arizona phone number and first cell phone in Arizona in uh uh March of 2003.

So to me, uh you know, buildings kind of are important, and I do appreciate Councilmember Hodge highlighting the um the Sam Gordon deal with the um the church enabled us to preserve and protect that.

Because I do think there is something to be said about physical structure.

Um, but to answer the question that was posed, I would hope that we would see you know, nothing written in stone, but more of a guiding document that will help the council and this council and future councils and future HPC members and members of the community have a real understanding of how we're going to address the challenges that we face as we live in a growing and desirable city.

A lot of Tempe's growth problems and the problems that we see and the frustrations with our residents are really um a symptom of the fact that people want to be here, that there is there is a demand to live in Tempe.

So I want to balance that with our commitment to the past and those who came before, because it is terribly important that we remember where we came from, but also have a clear vision of where we're going.

So that's what I would personally like to see come out of this effort.

But I think all the points have been raised, not only by commissioners and members of the public that have been in and my colleagues are excellent ones.

Thank you.

Next up, uh Commissioner Williams.

Yeah, I just uh I know there's a lot of discussion about including the the tribal communities and through our meetings, which I have set on.

Um our contributions to this core plan have been to include um oid but uh tempe butte because that is for most of us the visual right is the visual um uh marker that that's where tempe is when you can see it you know right now our concern is the visual impacts to blocking uh oid but like Salt River Pimo Maricopa Indian community from their point of view they can't see it because of all the high rises on the south bank of the Salt River.

But for the rest of us that are able to see um from the east, south and west, you know what we can still see it.

But you know, the Oidbuttwalk is a historic property is considered traditional cultural place, and it's listed, and so we've asked that uh the butte be included in the downtown tempee historic plan because is when you're speaking about um preserving the architecture, you know, and um the whole downtown feel that should include the butte, you know, because that's all of us what we've grown up to see was the butte, and knowing that that's where Tempe is, and um also um our interest again, you know, is that the city uh Tempe was built on top of uh uh Huagum site, and to this day, we are still finding features under developments, and it'll continue to happen because when what we don't realize is that over time, as the um uh how do I say how the environmental impacts that cover all these archaeological sites layered them, and as you're developing down and further down, you're you're gonna hit cultural material no matter where you're at in the state of Arizona and in Tempe, and that's been our experience, and that's why it's so important that this plan does have that guideline to meet um the historic preservation office, you know, um processes, you know, as far as doing um ground disturbing work, but you know, the visual impact um and just having um you know, and I know we included the installation art installation, you know, how the native community can um assist in that way.

You know, we have already um worked with the city to create uh interpretation planels on the north side of the butte, you know, on the sidewalk um where everybody has access to um the rail there.

Um so it started, and with this plan, you know, we hope to see um that consideration of including the butte in this downtown plan.

Thank you.

Commissioner Melcher.

I don't like to talk at public meetings very often.

I try to listen more than talk on these things, but um keep joining them, so here I am.

Um I wanted to mention two per uh Bordetta's point earlier.

Um when we're talking about inviting people to have these conversations with us and to bring in the different parties.

This is something I've been talking about for decades in the city of Tempe.

Um I am somebody who got involved with City of Tempy Tempe by myself, just going to meetings, listening to whatever I could find pre-internet, um, you know, calling in, looking whatever I can, because I'm a nerd.

I'm a I'm a closet nerd.

So um now I've I've said it out loud, so now I'm a nerd.

But um there are so many people that I talk to every day that do not feel like they are included in communication with the city of Tempe.

The number one thing that I complain about if you talk to me for more than five minutes is the fact that we are not communicating to hardly anybody that actually lives in the city of Tempe unless they are in an HOA or a neighborhood association, or they live in Southern Tempe.

There's also groups in Northern Tempe.

And I appreciate the fact that they are they have gathered and they have created groups, but there are people like myself, I don't want to live in an HOA, and nor do most of my clients.

I work as a real estate broker for anybody who doesn't know, and it's 50-50.

And it's 50-50.

You either want to be in one or you don't.

And the majority of the people that reach out to me don't.

A lot of people move into them because they have to, because they want a newer home, but they don't want to live in an HOA.

So I think we've got to, as a city, make sure that when we're having these conversations, whether it's about historic preservation or anything in the city of Tempe, that we work on how we're communicating with the environment as a whole, because we are leaving out at least 70% of the city when we're having these conversations about important groups.

And that is why when you guys are out and about and you're talking to people and they're saying, well, I didn't know about this, or why didn't they talk to me?

Because they're not hearing it.

They're not getting that information because they're not traveling in the same groups.

Because let's be honest, the majority of the doers in the city are all from the same cluster of people.

And that's great that there's a lot of really active people, but there's a lot of people that could be more active, especially in different communities, you know, of people of color or people in lower income realms or whatever it is that are not being in community, you know, especially if they don't live in Southern Tim Tempe where there's more money.

So we need to work on focusing on that.

So when we're bringing in older people or younger people, we need to be talking about that.

The other thing is when we're talking about the core, I know that you guys hear about this, I'm sure all the time, but we need to be talking about what impacts this has on the residential communities in the area.

Um I know that this is not the time or the place about what I've talked to some of you guys about recently.

But when you own a home and you purchase a home, or if you're renting a home and that is your dwelling, and you've got high rises that are, you know, 60, you know stories high that weren't there before, and now you guys are putting them in there.

And whether it's historic or not, you're you're you're taking away from their property rights if they're a homeowner, and also um, you know, their their privacy um and their quality of life.

And like in my community, we have something called quiet enjoyment, which is a residential right.

Um, it is no longer, that's why we've been talking.

Um, so I would also say to add that to this conversation.

But my my first point was mostly like how do we communicate with those other parties on any um thing.

And then I think that was oh, one more thing to Corey's point, which was I'm sorry, I should be calling you guys by your official name.

It's five.

This is why I don't talk at these things.

Um to the mayor's point is that um we also you mentioned properties that are already on the register and that have already been either whether on the local or the national, but we need to be looking at properties, which is one of my points that I brought up to Dr.

Lechner as my goal for our committee or commission is that we have a lot of property eligible properties.

So, like we have a lot of properties that are historical, but they're just not on the registry.

Um, we need to be looking at those two as part of this conversation because just because they haven't been put on that registry, those are important properties.

Um, and then lastly, and then I promise I'll shut up, um, is that the buildings my nerd is about to come out.

Um, I'm not an architect and I'm not a historian, but I am super nerdy about both.

I love, love, love architecture.

And we, as I've lived all over the United States, I was an Air Force kid, and the city of Tempe and the state of Arizona doesn't have a lot of amazing historical buildings.

So when you guys talk about not getting tied up on the buildings, I appreciate compromise.

I'm a Libra, that's what we do.

But at the same time, we have to understand that we have such a limited amount of historical buildings that we can't just say, you know, don't worry about the building.

Because the building is so it's it's such a small percentage of the buildings we have, and we've already gotten engulfed by new structures in the downtown.

When I moved here in Tempe in 1996, it looks nothing, that whole downtown area looks nothing like it did.

And you guys who have all been here forever know that.

So the buildings are important, but with the stories, I love that idea for all of you guys who brought that up.

Um, Councilmember Chent, I love that idea, and I think that also goes back to the conversations we can have with all these different people who are not part of the conversation normally.

And thank you.

Thank you.

Uh Council Bramberg.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

I'll give you a story.

Um my first date with my husband was at the House of Tricks, and the room that we actually had dinner in is now sitting next to City Hall.

So there's one story there.

Um I don't I guess from my perspective, I don't see economic development and historic preservation.

Like one is not going to get, you know, it it's it's gonna get hurt at the expense of the other.

Uh I've been on council for a year and a half, and since I've been on council for a year and a half, the city has actually acquired four of the historic buildings in downtown Tempe.

And I think that's fantastic.

I I would love to to acquire all of them.

But we can't also forget that economic development is also important to the city of Tempe.

We're landlocked.

We we're not Gilbert, we're not Mesa, we're not Peoria.

We can't keep building some divisions in order to bring in revenue in order to pay for our parks, our police, our book trash week, streets, roads, you know.

Yes, code enforcement, because a lot of people really like the code enforcement officers that are out there, arts in the park, Tempe Jam.

We have to pay for that in some way.

And with the long-term rental tax gone and every session that the legislature goes in, we are holding our breath for state shared revenues as to whether or not our budgets are going to get hit again.

We can't, we're landlocked.

We have to keep reinventing ourselves, or we're gonna stagnate, and as a community, we're going to die if we do that.

So historic preservation can't come at the expense of economic development, and economic development can't come at the expense of historic preservation.

I absolutely know that there is a compromise out there that's going to be able to do both, you know, get both of those points across.

So from my perspective, you know, that's what I would like to see coming out of this document is an understanding that we're gonna need to have both as a community.

Thank you.

Okay, so I've uh Commissioner Sinat, and then I have uh Madam Chair.

Thank you.

And I also agree with your point that um historical preservation cannot come at the expense of economic development.

But one thing that I didn't say in my introduction is that I'm also a graduate student at ASU in sustainable tourism, and I've had a lot of um education behind the different methods you can shift tourism to be sustainable for the environment, the community, and thus uh affecting the economy.

Um for instance, I would say that uh from my research that I did before this meeting, one of the top performing sectors of tourism is cultural heritage tourism, and visitors do demand the unique and authentic experiences that are memorable and often educational.

They come for that.

And specifically with Arizona, I agree with Commissioner Melcher, we don't have a lot of historic um buildings to showcase, and we are landlocked, and we are in a desert, so I think that the most effective thing is to build a story that people want to learn about and visit and engage with.

As well as for demographics, I did research, and millennials and gen Xers are the most likely to travel right now, and they're also well educated and tech savvy, so they research the locations ahead of time ahead of their visit, and they look for experiences that give them a cultural uh background and engagement to the location.

Um I think that Tempe has an opportunity to educate both locals and visitors alike on the rich history of this town.

My work at the uh president's cottage, which is now the Virginia G.

Piper Center for Creative Writing, is actually giving tours of the space, and people really love to engage with the story of President Gamage specifically.

And I think it was uh councilwoman Hodges that spoke of speaking to elders about the stories.

I actually developed a personal relationship with Grady Gamminch Jr.

while developing the research to give this story out, and I do think that that needs to be incorporated more for the rest of these historic properties.

Umpe, uh for instance, incorporating natural landmarks, features, and stories.

Uh I know a lot of people didn't know that Haydn's Ferry used to be of the original name of the Tempe location.

There's a story behind that.

And also incorporating various cultures and their stories, like you talked about the singular barrio that's left because of ASU's development, but also incorporating native Hispanic, black, and Asian stories as well, and um archaeological sites and petroglyphs and uh storytelling is really what I want to say is probably the most important thing that uh surrounds historic preservation because it means you're educating your audience, and they're taking away those stories to share with others, or um, they keep revisiting those stories as well.

So that's what I wanted to say.

Thank you.

Okay, so I've got Chair Jones and then Commissioner Fackler.

Thank you, Mayor.

I think a lot of times we see economic development and historic preservation on two ends of the spectrum when really there are two sides of the same coin.

And what I'd really like to see out of this document, and thank you, Commissioner Sinat for bringing up those wonderful, the wonderful studies um that have been done on economic development and how historic preservation bolsters economic development specifically and especially in downtown commercial corridors.

What we'd really like to see from this document is instead of a conversation of can we build there or can't we build there, or how high can we build?

I think a better question that we should be asking ourselves and discussing is how can we leverage our historic places, not just our buildings.

How can we leverage our historic places in Tempe for economic development?

So how can we not just replace them and build new?

How can we modify, how can we compromise, how can we leverage these as assets as cultural assets that are valuable to our community?

Because stories are great, but if I don't have any place to tie the story to, then it's just a story.

Or this is where my husband and I had our first date.

Like those places carry our stories.

So I think together we can be creative and come up with ideas of how we can leverage these places as economic assets and not just speed bumps in the way of development.

Thank you.

By the way, if anyone uh sees me on my phone, I just I'm getting text messages from people who want to speak, so don't think I'm like doing anything other than trying to just moderate the conversation.

I wanted to put that out there.

Um next up, I've got Commissioner Fackler and then um Commissioner Lerner and then Councilmember Adams.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

It's nice to go before Shireen.

She's a hard act to follow.

That was that was a compliment, Commissioner Lerner.

Well, maybe her and I go way back as well.

Um we talk about this people not feeling like they're been part of the process.

And I go back to 1978 in this community.

That's when I came to work for the city of Tempe.

And uh, you know, there weren't any cell phones.

We barely had computers at that time.

Emails, not everybody had emails.

So, you know, the only thing we had is the ability to put a lot of people in a room and talk things out.

Um, I listened to Zach and his consultants that have put together as outreach program, but it's basically like a family sitting at the dinner table working on their phones and not talking about anything that the others are interested in.

Um I'll take you back to 1980 and take a couple of people in the audience, Stu C for Vic Linov.

Uh one of the things I was given the opportunity to work on by Mayor Mitchell in 1979, 80, 81, was putting together the latest redevelopment plan for downtown Tempe.

And what I remember of downtown Tempe when I came in 1978.

When we talk about Jack in the Box, I heard that every parent in Tempe said, Don't go north of the Jack in the Box.

You can go to downtown Tempe, but don't go north of the jack in the box.

Why was that?

Well, north of the jack and box was basically biker bars, head shops.

Oh, yeah, and the 18 gas stations and uh service stations and car lots and things like that.

Everything because of state highway, everything moving people in and out of Tempe, but not stopping.

There was no place to stop.

Now, Harry, Mayor Mitchell.

He grew up delivering uh newspapers and spudnuts.

That's a donut for those that aren't familiar with the brand.

Well, he was a kid in downtown Tempe.

And he remembered the great places of downtown Tempe from his childhood.

Sent me down in his office one day, and he says, that's what I want to bring back.

But we've got a lot of developers, some of which just wanted to tear all of the downtown down, build a new shopping center, because that was a big thing in Tempe at that time.

But there were also these crazy historic preservationists that never saw an old building that they didn't absolutely love and want to save, whether it had any economic value or not.

So what he asked to do is to go to the people and specifically go to the representatives of downtown Tempe at that time, as well as the community at large, and put them together in a room with their varying attitudes, questions, priorities, whatever it was, and that's what we did.

We asked these citizens of Tempe who had an interest, a vested interest in downtown Tempe to self-nominate themselves for a project area committee, and to be elected by every property owner, business owner, and resident in downtown Tempe to serve on a project area committee to help the city planners put together this plan.

That was fun.

Met twice a month.

A lot of the meetings were yelling and screaming and listening and not listening.

But what came out of it was a plan that saw the redevelopment of downtown Tempe not as purely a development issue, and not as purely as a historic preservation issue, but a salt and pepper mix of those two.

They have to discuss it with other people that have different reasons for being at the table.

But I think what you're hearing from people who are dissatisfied with that is yes, they listen to what I had to say, but I don't know what everybody else is saying, and I don't know whether I agree with it or not.

So I'm gonna suggest that at this point, where we know who all the players are now, we basically know their individuals, but they've been talking to each other in very small curated groups, a lot of which is done electronically.

Invited professionals from all over the community to participate.

We used to do that too.

Stuff, you you and Vic both remember that a lot of these plans that were put together were done in two or three day long design charreds.

Well, I saw a little bit of that when we did 2050.

There went to a couple of the meetings at uh at Mills Mall in which the community was invited.

They were actually given a presentation of what the planners were working on at that time, and got around in small groups that they put together themselves and discussed amongst themselves, not on their phones, but actually talking to each other at the table.

Yeah, there was some refreshments and uh and food that was put together by the city, but I think you get more out of the conversation that you're asking to have with the community if the community gets to participate in the conversation as a whole.

When you isolate it, that's what you get is an isolated view.

Then it's up to some consultant who literally does not live in Tempe, doesn't work in Tempe.

It's not to say they're not damn good at their job, but they're isolated, and they talk to these isolated groups, and then they are the ones that are trying to mesh this together into a draft workable plan.

Um I've seen their work, I've seen uh the fact that the city planners have had input into their work, but I'm not seeing much of the community that I'm hearing from anyway that's being asked to sit at that same table.

You're not putting historic preservationists with developers.

You're isolating them, asking them what the what their goals, what their thoughts are.

You're not going to get the product you want.

This public participation process is not going to be the product that you want if it's done in isolation.

I think you have to give those people the opportunity to talk, even if it gets a little rowdy.

That's why you got that hammer.

But I'm not seeing that at this point.

Enough on public participation.

I'm gonna go back to the fact that this is an outgrowth.

This core plan is an outgrowth of the 2050 general plan, voted on by the people.

As far as I'm concerned, the name of this core plan should be the 2050 downtown core plan.

And I say that for a reason.

This community in the 50 years that I've been involved with has done a lot of development within the downtown.

Uh key historic resources simply because we'd waited so long to reinvest that they were beyond reinvestment.

Uh classic is the bank building at the northwest corner of Fifth and Mill that's no longer there, but what we built that or the community built there, MCW Holdings, is a structure that is already seen as contributing to the downtown core of important building.

Is it historic?

No.

And that's one of the other problems I've had with the developers' list of important buildings, is yes, everything that's on the National Register, Tempe Russia, both eligible for, recognized, all those are shown up as dots on the map.

But there's another 15, and I call them contributing near-term eligible properties, a lot of which Mill Avenue shops done by local architect, local developer, the aforementioned Gordon Birsch building.

Peterson Chipman building, 18 uh 19th century building.

Yeah, it's burned down twice, but it was rebuilt twice.

Andre buildings the same way.

Burned down three times, we rebuild it.

But there are 15 easy buildings along Mill Avenue that fill in the gaps between the recognized historic buildings that really need to be recognized as being in the core and lending their architecture, their businesses, their souls to that street.

If you don't put them on the map, then that tells somebody from the outside.

Well, I didn't care about this building, I'll buy that one, I'll tear it down.

I'll give you one that is a prime candidate for that.

The United States Post Office at Fifth and Mill.

They would have closed that thing years ago if it wasn't for the fact that we build enough residential and business down here that it actually still serves a purpose.

They tore it down to build that.

And it's an integral parting uh the downtown.

It needs to be recognized with at least a star on the damn map.

And there's so many others like that.

Our own police courts building.

I remember back when it was a safeway building that had been remodeled into a police courts building.

Then finally that was remodeled again and again and again.

Now we've got a police courts building that has some real history to it.

It's not only not in the core, it's not even got a dot next to it recognizing it.

So I'm gonna shut up now because I can already hear Shereen on the other end of the line, and I want to hear what she has to say.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Thank you.

Commissioner Lerner.

She fell asleep.

Okay, thank you.

Boy, Dave, thanks a lot for that.

Uh and it puts me on the spot.

Uh I the first thing I want to say is thank you to the council and the mayor for this meeting.

Um, it is really great to hear your perspective.

It's what we've been wanting uh since the beginning of this process is to understand uh better uh where the council, what the council thinks about this, uh, and about the historic preservation.

This is this is actually one of the best discussions we've had uh where we're hearing from more than just ourselves.

And uh I appreciate the fact that what we're what we're learning uh in terms of your perspective.

So it's uh I I'm gonna just do a short or a quick kind of summary of some things uh based on what I'm hearing.

Just from a historical perspective, since Dave went there, and everybody's been talking about Jack in the Box.

When I moved out here, that's the first place I worked, was at that Jack in the Box.

And I'll never forget my brother who drove through it and made a lot of fun of me for being at the window.

But you know, we all have our relationship with downtown Tempe in some way, uh, whether it's uh getting our the phone as council member eating or the jack in the box or any of those things.

Um, from a historical perspective, um, as Dave Commissioner Fackler was discussing uh in 1980, developing that plan.

Ten years later, Mayor Mitchell asked us to develop the first historic preservation ordinance for the city.

And at that table were homeowners from Maple Ash, people who were um property owners, but not homeowners, uh, business owners, historic preservation folks.

And I can tell you it was the meetings were very challenging, very difficult.

We had a lot of trouble coming up with anything.

We came up with some solutions, and then Mayor Mitchell, I would say had the bright idea to bring in Grady Gamage, who is a developer, but also somebody who cared about historic preservation.

And he helped actually craft the first ordinance based on all of the comments that he had heard from the diverse opinions of people who weren't necessarily on the same page, but he was able to pull that together.

Was it the strongest ordinance?

No, the historic folks, a lot of them said it was too weak.

The developers said it was too strong.

When I was data historic preservation officer, that's exactly how I knew I had reached the right compromise.

When both parties walked away saying, I'm not real happy, but I got something out of it.

And so we recognize that one side isn't going to get everything.

And that's part of what we as a commission have been asking for, is to have meetings with different groups to learn about their concerns.

The very things that you have been saying is something that we would also like.

We've requested, or I should say I've requested that the consultant put together a matrix of all of the comments that they've heard and what they are incorporating into the plan at this point and what they are not.

So we can see the comments that are not just from the commission, because we've been working in a silo or a vacuum.

When we receive the um the updates, we don't know what others are saying.

So when things are changed in the plan, we can't know why.

Those are things.

So we've requested to see if we could get the comments from all the diverse opinions so we have a better understanding.

And um is looking at other communities and other examples.

And I I often bring up San Diego, even though it's a much bigger city, it's not landlocked.

We understand that.

But if you just take the historic core of San Diego, they have shown how you can have development and a preservation of the historic character.

So when you are in that historic area, you really feel like old San Diego.

And then you go about a block or two off of that, and you've got those Hilton's and Hyatt's and apartments and all of those things there.

But while you're on the main thoroughfare, you have a sense of place.

And that's part of what we think can happen is you can have those kinds of compromises.

I'm really appreciative of the ideas of storytelling, capturing memories, the fact that there are a lot of groups that came before us.

Um, San Pablo, very important community that we need to recognize and celebrate.

Um there are great examples.

Um, I appreciate the fact that the Gonzalez Martinez House was mentioned on the condition of that there is something called uh demolition by neglect, which is a concern, that if you left things rot, then eventually you say we can't save it.

And we can see that happening.

There are also examples of where we could have had a compromise, like Watson's Flower.

The building could have been incorporated in some way, a portion of it into the new building that would have recognized the importance of that building to the neighborhood.

And that's part of what I think we need to be remembering is that it's not that we we recognize that not everything can be preserved.

We lost several buildings on the church property for the high rise that the developer Sam Gordon was putting up.

We saved the House of Tricks and the main building, the sanctuary.

You could say that's a compromise from a historic perspective.

Would we have liked to have saved all of it?

Of course, but you can also say that those are compromises that we had.

Um couple of other points.

Um, when we talk about storytelling, just uh to mention, and this is where I think the Tempe History Museum needs to be more involved.

Within the History Museum, there's an oral history program and collection that includes Asian, Hispanic, and African American members of the community that could be easily I don't want to say easily, could be incorporated into the downtown.

The stories that they tell that we already have of the elders and how Tempe was founded, could be somehow incorporated, whether it's through signage, so when people take walking tours, as Commissioner Sinat talked about, the heritage tourism, we could incorporate a lot of the material we already have.

I'll give you an example of a good compromise because one of the things that we have found when I've worked in historic preservation is that developers often want a unique environment.

The um 5th and mill on the southeast corner, um, Commissioner Facler and I crawled into that basement many years ago.

That was the Laird Dines building, and the developer wanted to create a unique experience as part of uh what he was trying to design.

And he chose to go all the way back to the original building, which was actually gonna be more costly and more time consuming than had he gone to how it had been redone.

He went back to the I'll say Queen Anne style, I'm probably wrong, instead of the territorial style.

Territorial would have been easier, but he said this would be more unique.

Having a unique experience, and some say uh filthy animal is like that, right?

You go in and it's a different environment, is what people look for, especially those that you know when we talk about the heritage tourism component.

People want those unique experiences rather than a lot of buildings that look alike, and if they don't get that, they don't come back.

Um they don't want they don't want to go, there's no experience for them to return to.

Um, and I just have a couple more quick points.

Um Farmer Goodwin is for sale.

If we don't do something, we're gonna lose that building.

And that is got historic significance, architectural significance, it's part of our downtown that's been around for a long time.

We should be worrying about that now and considering that now.

There are things we could do, potentially ask see who who well, I would love to have the city purchase it, but if they can't, um there are easements that could we could see if we could work with whoever does purchase that.

But this goes to another component, which is the boundary that is being talked about for the downtown historic area.

We have been talking as the commission about boundary changes that need to be made.

One was to incorporate the butte, another is to go over to college because there are historic properties that go to college, another is to take both sides of university instead of just the north side, an arbitrary line.

We haven't really heard good justification for why not to do that.

We've heard different reasons.

I guess I'll say I don't hear good justification.

But those are things that we should be considering because without we don't have huge numbers of historic properties, but we do have um enough, and if we don't try to incorporate them in some way, we may lose them.

Um the other thing that we've been talking at the commission level is what are some examples of successful historic areas in other cities that have a positive model that allow us to look at development and historic preservation together.

What are some problems that have occurred, models to avoid, so that we know going in or as we pursue this, let's not do something and let's try to do something else.

I also want to just quickly say I appreciate the mentions of the prehistory and how Tempe came to be.

I think it's really important, even though we've been focused on buildings, the archaeology that's there, the cultural resources, that early heritage is really important for us to include.

Um I think that's I I could go on forever, but the last point I'll I will say is um we need a specific roadmap that takes all of these things into consideration.

We need to actually work with the development community, sit down with them, have discussions so we can try to find a good balance and good compromise, and recognize that we all want what's best for Tempe, and what we absolutely want is to also have a Tempe that's and uh Mayor Woods has heard me say this often we don't want Tempe to lose its soul.

And if we remove our history as part of it, it may not have what makes people love Tempe so much.

So I just want to say again, thank you very much for the council and the mayor for taking the time to meet with us, and we hope that some really good things come out of this meeting.

Thank you, Chris Relar.

Appreciate it.

Okay, next up, I have Councilmember Adams and then Councilmember Hodge.

Yes, uh I'll be a brief.

Um, first of all, historic preservation is very important to me in this council, as you could hear from my colleagues.

Um, I agree about using it as a guideline for our future.

Um we need to work together.

The saying together we're better is is the truth.

So let's keep working on compromises and and finding common ground.

I love Dr.

Lerner said about um we don't want to lose our soul.

I agree with that.

We want to keep our soul of our downtown.

It's very important.

I remember Long Longs from many years ago.

Um, and you know, that was a historic uh site, and we lost it.

But let's not let's not do that anymore.

Let's let's uh try to work on compromises and uh you know another thing that um commissioner's point yeah thank you uh pointed out was uh tourism.

Tourism was a 1.1 billion dollar industry in our city every single year.

And those those tourists, they love to see the historic buildings.

They love, I mean it is cool.

And when you go to other when you go to other cities and you remember the cities, um the the cities you remember are the are the historic part of the cities, right?

You don't think about the buildings that all look alike.

You you look at the historic buildings and you hang out there.

Um Seattle has a great historic uh center, and uh I'm and that's what I remember about Seattle, not the and also the sky sky um scraper, whatever I can't remember what's called now.

But anyway, it's um you know, so I think that we we can do this, and we can and we can compromise and we can find our common ground and keep our history while uh surviving um economically.

So thank you, that's all I had to say.

Thank you.

Council Brahaj.

Okay, I think that mostly what I was gonna say has been said, but I just wanted to give a shout out to Darlene Justice, who reaches out to every council member when we get in and make sure that she gives us all of her history, everything that she knows from the city of Tempe.

That's another person that we can add to because when we talk about historical buildings and just ideals and places, we have people who are right there who come to council meetings every council meeting and sit, but we'll always give her time to make sure that we do have, you know, that we learn.

And I've lived my whole life in the city of Tempe, but still yet when I went on that with I went on a tour with her, I learned so much more that I didn't know.

So I just want this is a part what I'm talking about.

I think this is the kind of a missing piece is that we need we have community members who have so much stored inside that we need to be pulling that out.

So thank you so much, Darlene, for always reaching out to every new person that comes on council and make sure that you give them the tours in the history that you have.

And that's what I'm and I think that should be included along with when we do our preservation is to make sure we include people who actually you know will take the time to to teach.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Uh Vice Mayor Garland.

Dr.

Lechner, I actually have a question regarding um on page 43.

But before I say that, we were talking about our our our relation to the historic places.

My first official date was Filet Mignon Night at Montes La Casa Vieja, and it's also where we had our rehearsal dinner.

So that place has a really tender spot in my heart.

Um but on page 43, they talk um the part of the plan is about shade and climate responsive design.

And I I absolutely believe we need to be looking at sustainability.

I absolutely believe we need to be doing more shade.

But I'm when I was expecting to when I was looking through this and I was thinking about historic preservation.

I wasn't sure how this tied in specifically to historic preservation because it seemed like it got a little broad in that perspective.

So I just curious if you could just enlighten me just a little bit, please.

Yeah, I mean, I I'll just make a brief comment about that, and I'll say that um it's something that that has been brought up by you know some stakeholders and and also by some city staff.

So it's it's um something that we're gonna be having a conversation with about uh something we'll have a conversation about with um the consultant.

Um we already have talked with them a little bit about that.

Um you know, are there ways to you know kind of refine the plan um to just kind of get it down to it's kind of the core essentials?

Um and so uh I appreciate that feedback because that's something we're gonna be working on.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Uh let me go to uh Commissioner Karuka and then Council Burchin.

Thank you for suggesting for the um creating some quick summary for dinner public.

I mentioned at the public meeting also at the uh HBC.

I think um when they are prepared would be very good if there are more visuals uh included in the draft plan, some um the height height restriction or height allowance, uh noted let's say 25 to 50 feet or whatnot.

Um then public doesn't really can visualize without some three-dimensional views, and that will help.

Otherwise, there are a bunch of text or numbers, and people just glance at and they don't understand, so they just move on, they have a lot of other things to do, but then they see the actual impact visually.

I think it's quick grants, you can get it, and they might be interested in more.

And uh lots of other things already mentioned by my federal commission members.

Um for the public meeting, I think of the recent example out in culture master plans that was done well.

Uh public were very involved.

We had many meetings, and I think that that could be good model to follow.

And most importantly, um out in culture plans suggesting suggested or included how to fund these programs.

And uh I really appreciate that uh the recent bond money was allocated for historic preservation.

However, I'm hearing they're all dry already.

We don't have mechanism to keep going to let's say to invest for pharma good wing house.

So that would be really um should be considered how to um fund the the preservation effort.

And uh that's it.

Thank you very much for the time.

Thank you.

Councilmember Chinese thank you, Mayor.

A few things in the existing document that we were asked to react to.

A few things that I think may not be as necessary to include in terms of reach on this, because I think when you get distracted by some of these details, and I'll name them specifically, you lose sight of a lot of the important points we made today.

Uh I um appreciated the commissioners um remark about the view of the buttons.

I don't want to put on paper a number on a height restriction, but I'd rather have a um some language in there that guides back to the I would like to as council member Keating more eloquently um articulated something that guides us and speaks to the why of what we're trying to do.

I was trying to identify another, so height materials, and parking.

I I don't think parking, you need to talk about parking.

I think first of all, the city manages what was that 16 percent only of the parking in specifically the downtown area, a lot of it's privately managed parking.

Um I am supportive of multimodal, but let's focus on some other things.

Um materials, materials change, and the city many of us are uh very supportive of the international green building code.

So I think that's covered in other areas, and short of I understand gamge auditorium.

There are very strict guidelines on materials when it comes to a Frank Lloyd Wright structure, but do we need to broadly apply that other places?

It just seems more restrictive than encouraging.

Just that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Anyone else?

Commissioners, council members.

Yes, Council Burke.

I just had a point of order that I can never be more eloquent than Council Member.

Thank you.

Thank you, Council Burke.

That was a point more made.

Yes, I I agree.

I agree.

Uh let's see.

You're not supposed to agree with that.

No, I'm look, Council Burchina is very eloquent.

I would never attempt to jump in on that one.

All right, let's see.

So if that's that on that item, what great discussion.

Uh definitely really appreciate this.

This has been very enlightening for me, and I know the council as well.

So, you know, really appreciate the members of the HBC having this lengthy conversation about you know, obviously, what is a very important document to this community.

So thank you.

Next up here, item number five, historic preservation officer update.

Uh, Dr.

Lechner, turn back to you.

Thank you, Mayor.

Yeah, and thank you.

Thank you to council, thank you to HPC.

This is I I don't think I'd speak for the rest of staff and say that this has been very very useful.

So I appreciate you coming together and taking the time.

Um so I just want to provide a couple of uh brief updates on pending agreements.

Um these are relating to cultural resource protection.

Um, you know, topics that we've been discussing um tonight, uh, as well as consultation um between uh the city and state and and tribal partners.

Um the first is the programmatic agreement between the city of Tempe and the State Historic Preservation Office for housing Department of Housing and Urban U Development or HUD funded projects.

Um this agreement is designed to help streamline uh reporting that's required of the city under Section 106 of the National Historic Preservation Act of 1966 for HUD-funded projects that involve properties that are either listed in the National Register of Historic Places or are eligible for listing in the National Register.

Um you may recall at your uh most recent uh regular meeting last week.

Um, council approved the uh city manager to sign the agreement, and uh later this week I'll be initiating consultation with various uh agencies and affiliated tribes requesting their signature on the agreement.

And after the consultation period uh closes, um, I'll forward that to the Federal Advisory Council on Historic Preservation to be uh executed.

The second thing I want to mention is a memorandum of understanding between a pending memorandum of understanding between City of Tempe, the four Southern Tribes of Arizona, and the Pasquayaki tribe.

This MOU uh fulfills or will fulfill a requirement in the 2022 Council adopted historic preservation plan.

The MOU will require the Historic Preservation Officer to engage in formal consultation with the four Southern tribes and Pasquayaki tribe on city projects, projects occurring on city land, as well as various uh city management plans that pertain to historic or culturally significant properties.

Um the MOU is awaiting tribe signatures, after which I will place it on an upcoming uh Tempe City Council agenda for adoption.

Uh this uh expanded consultation MOU, in my mind, demonstrates the city's commitment to strengthening relationships as well as increasing transparency with its key tribal partners as stewards of traditional tribal lands within Tempe city limits.

And that is all for my updates.

Thank you, Mayor Woods.

Thank you, Dr.

Leckner.

Uh anyone from the council or commission have any comments or questions on item five.

Okay, great.

Thank you so much.

I'm gonna then go to item number six closing remarks.

I guess I probably gave my closing remarks after 4B, so I probably don't need to repeat those unless anyone has anything else around the table that they'd like to add before we adjourn.

Okay.

Seeing none, we're gonna go ahead and adjourn this meeting at 6 38 p.m.

Once again, thank you to all the members of the Historic Preservation Commission for participating this evening, and of course the council and everyone in the audience and those watching at home.

Thank you so much.

Have a good night.