I want to call to order the meeting of the legal city council, public safety and criminal justice reform committee meeting.

Court called role.

Hobbs.

Williams here.

Kramer.

Here.

Nick Fearson.

Here.

Naldon.

Morris.

Serantu.

Here.

Five present and also present our council members Driscoll and Gaddis.

Thank you all for being here today.

Would you and our council president?

Would you please uh we want to have first our domestic violence report data from Chief Chief Prosecutor?

Thank you for being here.

Thank you so much, Councilman Hobbs, for having me.

Thank you to the members of Council, President Williams.

We appreciate your time today.

I first want to take the opportunity to introduce the Toledo Prosecutor's Office, who almost all of them are in attendance today behind us here.

This is a fabulous group of public servants who are dedicated to seeking truth and justice in our city.

This is a team worth bragging about because the success we are here to share regarding domestic violence prosecutions belongs to all of us.

We share the vision, the heartache, and the workload.

We are there for each other to strategize cases, to cover dockets when life happens outside of work, and to help pick each other back up when we start to feel buried under the weight of it all.

I am so proud of these people and truly honored to get to work alongside them at the Toledo Prosecutor's Office.

Josh Arder, Monica Sass, Nancy McGuinness, and Michelle Turvey.

Michelle's thank you.

Thank you, Council Member McPherson.

Michelle served in the unit uh for a long time.

She actually just transitioned out, and Nancy is transitioning in, but wanted to recognize all the hard work as the numbers today really reflect her time in the unit as well.

We are here thanks to the funding from city council that we are fortunate to have three full-time domestic violence prosecutors who each cover two courtrooms apiece.

What these folks have managed to do in just a few short years is remarkable.

They have increased convictions in domestic violence cases, spent more time with victims than ever before, and done so efficiently by taking less time to resolve cases.

Domestic violence has always been an issue in our community, but it has not always been a priority.

Kate Loom was the victim of pending criminal cases in several of our courts, and after her death, both the City of Toledo as well as the Lucas County prosecutors' offices created the first local domestic violence prosecution units.

The Toledo Prosecutor's Office went through many different iterations, but due to lack of funding and high turnover, it was difficult to maintain consistent staffing in this high stress role.

That all changed in 2023, thanks to our law director's leadership and funding from city council to make an effective domestic violence unit in the prosecutor's office a reality.

Once we were fully funded, we set out to train these prosecutors in the unique dynamics of intimate partner violence and how to prepare a case for trial without relying solely on a victim's testimony, understanding that there are many reasons that victims are not able to participate in the legal process.

We often say it is not a victim's job to prosecute her abuser.

That's our job.

Once the unit was up and running, we were curious to track our progress and wanted to know how, if at all, the outcomes of DV cases were different since implementing the unit.

So Josh Arder and I began working with folks from all over the country to compile and analyze data from our court.

We partnered with some incredibly talented folks represented by the organizations you see on the screen here to take a look at our overall caseload and specifically track the progress of our DV unit.

Before we look at the numbers, I want to be clear that progress for purposes of prosecution is about intervention and successfully prosecuting incidents that have already occurred.

We are not in the business of primary prevention, so we cannot say that our work has reduced the incidence of domestic violence in our community.

Rather, the rate of domestic violence crimes in Toledo remains steady, as it has for many years.

You see on this slide that the amount of domestic violence cases in Toledo Municipal Court is regularly around 18% of our total criminal caseload.

This represents a large portion of what we do and certainly justifies the need for specialized prosecutors to give these cases the attention they deserve.

DB was the most charged criminal offense in our court in 2024, followed only by disorderly conduct.

While RDB prosecutors handle all DV cases labeled DV, the primary focus of the unit is to address intimate partner violence that is based in power and control and reflects a pattern behavior that often escalates in severity.

For purposes of this study, we look at the year prior to the unit being fully staffed and the two years after for comparison.

Since that time, the City of Toledo has increased convictions on domestic violence cases.

Anyone who works in criminal justice can appreciate that these numbers are not easy to come by.

And this increase represents a Herculean effort on behalf of these prosecutors in a relatively short time.

But we have not just increased our conviction rate, we have significantly increased enhanciable convictions on DV charges.

This means that based on our conviction in Toledo Municipal Court, an abuser will be charged with a felony if they reoffend.

So we have more meaningful consequences if someone continues their pattern of abusive behavior in relationships.

That is huge.

And while these numbers may not seem drastic, please remember that these numbers represent people's lives.

Hundreds of real Toledoans and their families who have experienced trauma and sought justice through the courts and are receiving better results.

That is in part because our domestic violence prosecutors are able to spend more time with victims who do come to court and are able to participate in the legal process.

The time that we are able to devote to learning a victim's circumstances and understand what they want to see happen with their case is invaluable.

This is work that requires humanity and care for people in truly difficult moments.

Being a domestic violence prosecutor requires a lot of time and patience, not only to speak with victims about their legal options, but also to compile and review evidence for cases that more often than not will not include victim testimony, and therefore have to be prosecuted based entirely on other evidence, such as 9 1 1 calls, photographs, and body camera footage.

Despite the amount of time it takes for these prosecutors to be prepared, we are resolving domestic violence cases faster than ever before.

Both the average and median length of time for a DV case disposed in 2024 is lower than the previous two years.

This is in large part due to city council funding our DV clerk position to have a dedicated staff person to process discovery requests on these cases so that they don't linger any longer than they have to in our court, which is certainly to everyone's benefit, defendants and victims alike.

I want to thank these prosecutors for the work that they do every day, and a particular thanks to Josh for helping me compile these stats and make sense of the numbers.

Lawyers are not usually good with numbers.

He is a rare breed who understands both.

But in conclusion, we are extremely grateful to this body for your support both professionally and financially.

It is because of City Council's investment that the prosecutor's office has increased meaningful domestic violence convictions, better served our community by providing victims the time and attention they deserve, and done so efficiently.

We thank you and are happy to answer any questions that you have.

Thank you for this amazing report for this amazing work.

Council President Williams and Councilwoman Susanna McPherson and Lars.

This is one of the things that we talked about a lot and had a lot of conversation about.

So for you able to be able to see beyond that and still help.

Thank you.

And I hope that this will continue.

And uh as the scripture teaches us, let us not be weary and well-doing for a due season.

We will reap if we faint not.

So I hope that you will not get tired of this work, but will continue with the same.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Uh, I too want to uh express my deep appreciation to the chief prosecutor Facy and the entire team of prosecutors, uh, because I think this is really making a difference.

You know, this is uh domestic violence is not gonna go away.

Um, it's here, and we need to continue to meet those challenges.

So I I really appreciate the hard work and the expansion of the staff.

Um I have a couple questions.

Uh, how would you characterize a relationship between the prosecutors and our police department, the detectives that work on domestic violence?

How is that going?

Well, thank you, Councilman Sorantu, for all your support over the years.

I know that this issue is close to you and and we appreciate the the focus you've had on it.

Um, we have a wonderful working relationship with Toledo Police.

Their liaisons are embedded in our office.

We work with them every day.

They are so incredibly helpful and supportive as we need follow-up on our cases, as we need to um make sure that officers are available to testify on our cases, particularly in these victimless domestic violence cases.

We're relying on police officers' testimony um to be able to bring forward the evidence that we do have.

Uh Toledo Police still has one domestic violence detective, as far as I know, and their primary focus is is only on felony domestic violence cases.

Um they are not typically involved in all at all on the misdemeanor level.

Uh and certainly we have a huge volume, um, but would love to see that number is cr increased as we've discussed many times.

Okay.

Um are there other detectives that uh the prosecutors are dealing with besides the main detective that's doing domestic violence?

Are there other detectives that you come in contact with?

So for the most part, detectives in Toledo police um are only assigned to felony cases.

It is rare that we have um detectives involved in our cases on the misdemeanor level at all, domestic violence or otherwise.

Okay, all right.

And then in terms of the um a clerical position, which is absolutely critical.

Yeah.

I know that does make a difference.

And that is Deanna Parazalis in in the audience here today as well.

She is such a hard worker and we're so appreciative of her.

Thank you for your service.

Is there a backup for her if uh she's on vacation or something?

Yes, yes, we have um three secretarial staff, um, who all do discovery.

Uh Diana just has this, you know, sole focus on domestic violence, so we can move those cases quickly.

Right.

Excellent.

Well, thank you very much and appreciate the information today.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Thank you, Councilwoman.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilman Hobbs.

Thank you for your work.

And you know I'm um I clap because I'm excited about the work and how important it is and how um how you struggled um in the beginning with the lack of and now the support and so yeah, I get excited about things when I see it happening when I actually see it in fruition and is actually working and is working for the betterment of the citizens of Toledo.

So I commend you thank you, C for your excited too.

We've got such a great team and they have so much enthusiasm for what they do.

We're we're really grateful for that excitement.

And it is um, you know, when we were at the one memorial for the one young lady, um that was murdered domestic um violence, it it that was the conversation because we you needed the additional help.

And so I want to commend you for taking on this challenge and working through it and being patient as um as uh councilman how said when we got on and it took a little time and you know we got a real real stern one over here, uh Councilman Sarantu, you know, keeps pushing and pushing and and things happen, and so we are grateful for all of you and what you are doing, and I also uh ditto.

Don't get weary and well doing.

Continue and continue to fight and know that there are those of us that are out here supporting you wholeheartedly.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

Councilman Sorantsu, thank you, Mr.

Chair.

I I had a f follow-up question uh uh thanks to Caswar and McPherson because she reminded me of something.

How how is the relationship between children's services board uh and uh the prosecutor's office?

Um obviously we we all know the very tragic murder that occurred uh about a uh a little over a year ago.

Um and I consider that domestic violence.

Uh but I I was just curious, is that is there a good working relationship?

Do is there much contact with CSB?

There's not a whole lot of contact, but uh yes, we do work in partnership.

Sometimes we will have to subpoena their record sometimes on cases um involving child endangering and um have a good working relationship with their legal department to be able to get those records quickly for you very good thank you thank you mr chair um is there anyone from the audience that had a question or anything while we have them here so I don't make five people come back up at the front at the end is there anyone from our audience that had any questions or statements for domestic violence anyone all right thank you thank you thank you all so much thank you.

Next up I'm asking uh I believe Chief Trinley uh Deputy Chief Braun and Lieutenant Holmes to come and talk about the Toledo police and pound lots good afternoon Chair Council uh appreciate the opportunity to come back and talk more about the impound lots um as we've already done a presentation on the lot and we were able to give you guys um some answers to referral questions I think at this point we don't really have any new information to present um we just kind of open it up for questions and discussion.

Uh we also do have uh their COO Frank Mecklenburg from VMS here tonight to answer any questions that we do not have or anything further that you may have for the company and I know we have Director Campbell here to talk about uh some of the finance options of it as well okay um I know that one of the questions that was asked and I believe it came from councilwoman McPherson concerning the union with command and officers and I was able to have a conversation with both the unions and so they said that it would not be a issue with the union as far as the eight or nine officers that work there because they work in records they will move them from into a different place in records and the only thing that would change I believe was if um the chief and I believe in talking to you Chief you would have a conversation with those officers to see if they still wanted to stay in records.

If they did not you could look at something else uh could you elaborate on that a little bit but from the information I got Councilwoman McPherson from both unions they did not have an issue with those that were working in records.

Yes and I know representatives from the CPPA are in the audience.

So we are obviously those are contractual positions or records.

Records is more than just the toll lot.

Um toll lot is a subsection of our record session so we would have positions inside of the record section that we would utilize those officers.

Um specifically we have not worked out all those details and partially that's because waiting to see if this is even something that's going to come to fruition because it's not an overnight process as well.

Um regardless there are record spots that we would utilize those officers and working with the unions and the officers we would like to find the best utilization for them not only for the officers themselves to maintain shifts and everything else that they're doing right now but also for the betterment of our department and our community by getting more officers to have contact with our community for making reports.

Questions from our council members.

Thank you, Chief.

Councilman Saratsu.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Um in looking at the referral answers, I I needed uh some help and understanding.

Could uh Chief could you tell us what is contractual services?

'Cause that's about well, so about 1.3, 1.4 million.

Uh what does that entail?

The contractual services is gonna be like our tow companies and other contracts that we have, such as lock services, our locksmith services, or um we also have our Tura contract that we currently have as well.

What is that?

That is what we use to order tows currently, the software.

Alright.

And then uh so currently uh when you have you have vehicles there that uh uh can't be salvaged but are gonna be auctioned off some of the vehicles.

Okay, so um that is what r would represent uh some of the revenue in terms of the tow lot that it brings in.

Correct.

Okay.

And then uh I assume we have a a professional auction here that handles that.

Yes.

Over the last few years we've used Pamela Rose.

Okay.

And then where would I where would I find the uh fees for that?

Where would that be on that sheet?

That was I believe that they may be in also contractual services.

Contractual services, okay.

Any idea w what percent of the contractual service expenditures that that represents?

Um not off the top of my head, but I can take that by referral.

Okay.

Okay.

And then um it would appear, uh, because in in the uh referral that was requested, we asked for uh revenue and expenditures going all the way back to 2021, and it looks like 2021 we had 2.9 million of revenue, uh total revenue, and then uh in 22, 23, 24, it was around uh three point six million uh for twenty twenty-five, three point seven million.

So it seems to be very steady, and then the expenditures uh look to be again fairly steady, somewhere are currently around one point five million is what what I'm seeing.

So um and this this doesn't include uh the officers because the officers are gonna be paid anyways, whether they're in records or they're out on the street or they're at the sergeant's desk, whatever.

So um I just see a trend here that we are bringing in um more revenue than what we were five years ago.

Uh it looks to me like about six hundred, seven hundred thousand dollars more.

Um do you foresee that trend continuing uh in Toledo?

As is or with this company.

No, I mean in terms of just in general, the toll lot of the potential is there, yes.

Is is the toll lot filled with capacity at this point, or is there still room?

No, right now it is not completely full.

Okay.

Um so when we did do the regionalization over the towing um for the area, we had some expansion there to uh uh be able to take in more cars.

Um, you know, one of the things this company will do as well is better toll lot management of the lot itself to allow us to fit more cars in there as well.

But right now we are not completely full, but there are some times where we get pretty close to capacity.

Okay.

I uh I have to be honest, I don't like the idea of giving up the toll lot, because we are giving up control of the toll lot, and I can tell you uh that in the past uh former chief Michael Navarro uh uh presented to us this idea, and uh and quote, he said it was a money maker, and I think it has been a moneymaker for the city.

Um this company uh obviously is is around the country and has had other locations, uh but I just I just hate to give up control because before we had that toll lot, we had such uh so many problems.

People went to the wrong lot.

Uh it was just very burdensome and people were obviously very upset that their car was towed.

Um and I just think a central location is important.

Um I don't know much about this company, but again, uh I think it's also an issue for this council to decide on whether we want to give up control uh of a of a multi million dollar facility and the fact that it has in general I think worked pretty well.

Uh I don't know of any major issues that we've had with the toll lot.

Um so I just wanted to share my thoughts on that.

Uh I'm open to um additional information so thank you Mr.

Chairman.

Thank you, Consulwoman McPherson.

Thank you.

Uh just a couple of questions if you could give me um what's the reasoning behind looking at going to giving up total control of the the lots the towing and everything and going with uh another company one.

And then did we even look at other companies um because this company is not local we did we look at other companies or the potential of bidding and out to see if there are locals um because you know I have a the issue with outsourcing jobs and then um I'm gonna let you answer those first.

Yeah so first why would we consider giving up I I don't actually see it giving up complete control.

We're we're having we're basically hiring a company to manage the toll lot.

Um and from a chief's perspective and a policing perspective while back in the day um consolidating into one toll lot made sense when we had so many different toll companies taking all the different cars to different places that will not change right now.

There'll still be a consolidated toll lot it'll just be the management of the toll lot will be out of the policing business.

Um from a personal perspective I think there's better use for police officers than being toll lot attendants and customer service agents at the desk and facilitating the return of cars.

Um now there will still be a need for an officer to be a liaison between the company and our police department especially when you start talking about evidence tows and those kinds of things um but from a peer management perspective I believe this company will do it better and provide a better service to our community than our officers do currently um and the second one is it is understanding and they are believe registered as one the only company that actually provides this service.

So they're a sole source at this point on how this came about.

They are sole sources there's no other companies or that there's it is my understanding there's no other company that does this service as managing toll lots the way that this company does it and uh I think Mr can speak to that more if you would like in the oh sure you can yes whoever I'm glad we back.

Thanks for for having uh the opportunity to give us a chance to talk a little bit more about this but in terms of are we a sole source you know does does anybody else do what we do across the country and the answer is no to the the level and the amount of vehicles that we process how we process process them the government agencies that we interact with that we work with uh on a national level on a state level um the software that we use and utilize and how we utilize that software in order to benefit citizens uh and get cars back quickly and ensure the vehicles are sold properly and released properly uh we are the only company in the country that does that there were a couple other count uh companies that did do that Texco was one of them um peak uh Grant Street Peak Auto uh was another and then there was VMS.

Um in the last two years we've actually all consolidated under one company so all of the national companies that used to do that now both are fall under the BMS banner.

Um question on the revenue uh so when cars would then be sold how we do it through roles through the auctioneer um this company then would handle that also.

So they're a total management company, they would handle all aspects of the toll lots um from the intake to the selling of the cars to the processing of the return of the cars.

They will be in control of all those.

And the revenue from that from selling those cars will then go to yes so they were paying being pay paid a flat fee for managing the company or the toll lot and then all the revenue and extra fees that come in come back to the city.

And this is at the amount of two million four hundred and seventy-one thousand six hundred and seventeen dollars annually.

That's the top cost that we'll have at the 10 year mark.

Um currently for the first two years it'll only be two million one hundred and ninety-six thousand.

That's all the questions I have for right now.

Thank you, Councilman House.

Thank you, Chair.

Um the toll I I know we brought up that um the contract with Pamela Rose.

Is there any other companies that the that you guys are currently in contracts with around the towing business?

So uh do we have companies that tow we have contracts to tow the cars there?

Will that change?

Are there any other in the whole from the time we tow the car to the end?

How many companies are we in contract with?

Um I can't give you the exact I think we're somewhere around eight or nine tow companies that we currently work with.

Um it is my understanding that this company will continue to contract with those companies because they are local tows, that's not gonna change.

Um and the only other one that off the top of my head would be a salvage uh contract that we do have, we bid that out every year.

So just about every year we rebid that contract.

Um obviously for any current contracts that we have for like the salvage or stuff, I I believe EMS is going to assume that contract and then work forward just like we would on rebidding it out.

Okay, and then the the auctioneer contract, does that expire this year as well, or is that something we're gonna have to cancel?

Okay, so I'm gonna have to look into that more because we don't believe that's actually a contract that we have, um, because I think it's based off a fee and collection of selling the cars and everything else, but uh we will get to you that by referral.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

Council President Williams.

Um, hey Chief, hey Chief, uh sister, Chief, Lieutenant Bond, uh I mean Lieutenant Home, Brian, all that other stuff.

He can be lieutenant after this if you like.

I mean, we got chiefs everywhere, so uh um I this may be for Director Campbell.

Where's she at?

She's here, right?

Oh, hey, hey, hey, or are you chief?

I don't know.

So um this is similar to what we have with Tamil Shanna with the ice rink and also Davies with the golf course, right?

I mean it's different because it's a toll lot, but this is kind of along the same lines of the contracts that we have there.

Um, and you may not have this, but if you do, do we do we turn a profit on the ice rink and on Davies at the golf course?

I think I know that we're l we're crawl we're crawling away from the um golf income, right?

Like we're not having to pay out as much with the golf, right?

The general fund over the past couple years has had to subsidize the golf course operations, but the amount is slowly decreasing.

Okay.

Um I would have to check on the ice rink though.

Okay.

Um I only ask that because, you know, we're in a situation where our budget is crazy, um, and we have asked the administration to um cut ten million dollars out of the budget for next year.

If this is a contract that is going to help that, I wanna see like the other contracts we have around the city that we're doing that in.

If it can uh help us with our general fund, I am for it.

Um and it's not gonna be cutting any of our jobs because that was something that this council did not do this year, nor do we want to do um we wanna make sure that we're doing that, but um as as we move forward I wanna you know just really see these contracts and are they saving us money in the long term.

It sounds like this will because as I looked at it and I conferred with my colleague uh Sarantu because math wasn't my favorite subjects but I wanted to see because our general fund uh I mean we lost a hundred thousand on the toll lot um last year and it stays steady for 23 and 24.

Um if it can help with it I'm off for it.

But I don't wanna go through all this and it would cost us more is what I wanna talk about.

I don't want it to cost us more, but I would like it to save us some dollars because I mean if I'm sitting in my office for six hours cutting paper clips and pins out of budgets to save jobs, I would expect other departments to do that as well.

So I appreciate the effort to try to find ways to save um the city money so that we can save jobs.

So I appreciate the effort and I'm hopeful that this is so um I will probably write a referral request requesting those so that I can have it formalized on what Sam O'Shiner uh is saving us at the ICE rank and also um what Davies is saving us uh over the last uh the contract year we've had with them.

So I'll send that to finance.

Um thank you director what are you chief director?

I don't know.

Just just director.

Okay director, I'm glad you even took that job so thank you director, appreciate you and if I may um I helped police with putting together the referral response and the toll lot operations do overall provide a net benefit to the general fund.

And as we look at this contract going forward and the potential for increased revenues that will increase the overall benefit to the general fund.

Oh good deal so we're gonna be be saving jobs if we if we get into this contract.

I appreciate that.

Thank you.

Call some of the school.

Thank you Chair Hobbs.

Yeah the principal difference though to me between the golf course and uh the ice rink and then the toll lot is that we do make money on the toll lot and so to me it represents an asset.

We don't we're not outsourcing the maintenance of it because maybe with more expensive for us to do we actually we do make money on it.

Um many years ago the city had an opportunity to potentially sell its water uh to sell our public utility and we decided not to because it was an asset.

I think that was the right call.

Um so I I'm I came into this somewhat skeptical but um I'm willing to be persuaded.

Uh I do have a question for uh director Campbell um in the referral response uh the two columns and on the far right represent estimates I think uh if we go with this if if we do outsource this uh potential projections of revenues and expenditures if we were to outsource it but you still have I I assume this is a mistake but maybe it's not you still have personnel cost budgeted in the general fund at one point one zero eight million dollars both the low end and high end is that correct or that number should be zero, right?

So those are just the police officers that will still be budgeted in the general fund and still part of our budget but they won't be part of toll lot operations.

So I to me that number ought to be zero right because they won't be doing toll lot related activities, is that right?

C correct they won't be doing toll lot rate related activities but they'll still be part of our overall general fund budget and a cost that we'll have in our general fund.

Well I understand that but they're not associated with the toll lot.

Correct.

I think that number needs to be like fleshed out a little bit better because this might be a better picture than really um is that right?

I mean, if they're they're moving to if their responsibilities are changing, I mean it sounds like there's still be some responsibilities at some level for for some officers and records with the toll up, but it in Councilman Driscoll, conservatively I left the officers in here because they're part of our general fund budget, but they truly aren't part of the toll lot operations anymore, so that net benefit overall in the toll lot operations would be higher if they're not included.

Okay, I think we should try to flesh that out a little better because I think that makes the picture a little better for how you know the idea of outsourcing this.

Um I do have a question about the tow fees.

Uh when was the last time we raised fees for the toll lot?

It's actually fairly recent.

Um so when we uh did the consolidation with the countywide towing, um we are readjusted our fees at that point.

Um but they had been steady for at least I I think it was almost twenty years.

So how long ago was that?

So that was within the last three years, I believe.

So maybe twenty two thousand and twenty-three or at the end of twenty twenty two.

Okay.

So you think now that represents like an industry standard for what we ought to be charging, or is there still some flexibility?

So uh we we are probably a little bit on the low side for our tow fees um and from a um city department we don't make a ton off of our tow fees because the majority of those go right to the tow truck drivers.

Um we had to kind of redesign it inside the TMC because um we're now asking our city tow truck drivers to travel further out into uh whether it be Berkeley or or whatever you want to call, so they get a higher portion of that fee the further out they go.

Okay.

Um so I'm um I'm again looking at the the projections here.

The the primary difference here I think is on auto salvage.

So these are cars that we're able to sell.

So th this potent this firm that we might be going with.

We must believe at some level that they'd be far better at selling cars than the contractual service we have right now.

Is that correct?

I think it's a combination of things.

It's it's this is not a knock against our current auctioneer.

Um that is not really what it is, but I think the company that we're you going to use VMS, they kind of prioritize the salvage different than we do now.

Okay.

Um so where they will sell their salvage uh on an auction site instead of just having a contract necessarily with a salvage company that pairs the pays the bare minimum for the metal that they're taking.

Um there's other from having conversations with them, and I'm sure he can for frank can speak to this better than I can, but uh there are other vendors out there that are looking for these types of cars because maybe that quarter panel is still in good shape and they're a bit more money out of that, um, or something along those lines.

Okay.

Um if they fail if VMS fails to meet their goals in terms of revenue, what happens?

Let's say if they're let's say they're not profitable.

What happens to us then?

You know, so in looking at the contracts, uh we uh the way we write our contracts is we have a ability to terminate a contract if we're unhappy with the service.

Okay.

Um I guess yeah, I guess the only concern I have is that this is this represents an asset I wonder if we have the ability.

Like if somebody can make money doing this, I don't know why we we couldn't, but um good since that that's what Councilman McPherson said too.

So um so I don't know, I uh I gotta I gotta understand the value proposition a little bit better.

I'm not saying I'm necessarily against this, but um yeah, just I guess I just want to understand why it is that VMS would be so much better at this than than we would, but uh but I appreciate the work you put into Councilman Sarantsu.

Thank you uh very much, Mr.

Chairman.

So when I look at what we try actually transfer into the general fund from uh twenty-two, twenty-three, twenty four, twenty-five, it it's on average somewhere around two point two to two point three million.

Uh and then uh for twenty-six we're projecting a transfer to the general fund after expenses uh and this is without the police salaries, which uh is proper.

Uh we're looking at two million twenty-five thousand.

I'd like to ask the finance director.

Why would it be less from twenty-four to uh twenty-five?

I'm sorry, from twenty-five to twenty-six.

The amount um in twenty-six is based on the budget and the estimated revenues compared to the expenditures in twenty twenty five the revenues were um pretty close three point seven but expenditures were a little bit less than what's currently budgeted for twenty six so the transfer was able to be a little bit higher.

Okay.

All right, thank you.

And then uh so you know roughly two point two million to two million is transferred to the general fund under current conditions.

But when I look at the VMS projections it would be two point two million at the low end and two point six million at the high end.

Well that's not a lot of difference.

It's maybe a half a million dollars uh and we're giving up control of an asset that is brought in millions of dollars into the city of Toledo.

The other question I've got uh I want to follow up on Councilman uh uh Driscoll's uh question and that is how many days notice do we have to give to cancel the contract with VMS and are there any penalties that we're liable for as a city.

That's gonna have to be a question is gonna be answered by law so we'll take that by referral.

Okay all right and then also do we uh are we required by law to have law enforcement licensed law enforcement officers in the toll lot or at least one or several no I I do not believe that is a law at all.

Okay.

So why in the heck if we wanted to get more police officers on the street, why couldn't we have our local seven employees or other civilian employees run the toll lot could somebody answer that for me.

If they were trained.

So along those same lines, you know, going to a company to manage it that gets our officers out of the toll lot.

Um adopting another union into the toll lot I'm sh not positive how that will play out.

It is definitely something that it could be explored um but you're still you're still left with us trying to manage a toll lot um and bringing in similar or less money than a company that has this does this across the country is able to streamline the process provide a better customer service product to our community based on their ability to that their different software their flexibility in hours to open up for longer hours and actually have a better customer service mindset than our police officers probably do at that toll lot.

But I was also informed that um most of the officers that are assigned to the toll lot are senior officers with maybe a few years of r uh within retirement maybe one year of retirement and they bid on the job so which brings me to the point a senior officer is going to be at the top level of income as an officer with Toledo police department versus for example a local seven or a teamster employee certainly wouldn't be at that high level um uh because of the jobs that they're involved in and so I would assume that we would uh if we chose to do that there would be a reduction in in expenditures personnel expenditures yes I'd say that would be correct okay all right well thank you very much thank you uh Mr Chairman Councilwall McPherson.

Thank you um Councilman Serrantu for that and I don't have a question.

I just need to state that I have a concern with the city of Toledo going to privatized a job that we've had and if it was not going to be beneficial monetarily for this company, they wouldn't be here.

And um I think I think that s all of that that uh doc um do I say Dr Saronto uh councilman Serranto has just stated I think there are ways that we can or our departments could work this and still get our police officers out on the street or in other areas without having to be over there.

But we still are gonna have to have a police or a couple of police that are seeing because of what you just said about criminal actions or things, investigations where those cars may have to be and so I just hope that we will look at this um a little more in depth um before we make a decision on this.

Um I also would like by referral um that our law department look into look into this as far as labor agreements because I wanna make sure that um there will not be no fallbacks if we were to decide to do this with TPD or TP Toledo Police Association.

Um and that's that's all that I have for right now.

Thank you, Councilman House.

Oh let me just say this.

I noticed that when council I'm sorry, yep.

She mentioned about O'Shanty and she mentioned about the contract with the golf.

Um both of those are local entities.

And those are local businesses that we have contracted with.

I don't have a problem with going locally.

I do have a problem when we outsource.

Thank you.

All right I think I'm in a safety zone.

Thank you, Mr Chairman.

I appreciate the latitude to ask a few questions since I'm not a regular member of this committee.

I appreciate the time you've given you uh my the last question I had though is um re with regards to the five year contract um I wonder and maybe somebody from VMS could needs to speak on this but um I wonder if like if if we if this isn't successful I guess we have the right to terminate the contract at any time and maybe we just need to understand that a little bit better but I wonder if maybe a shorter deal makes more sense give us a little more time for oversight.

I don't know how you feel about that um and I don't know what kind of infrastructure investment VMS makes into this which I understand and perhaps that would change their rate.

I don't know.

I just um like I said this is an ass this is an asset.

This is one of the few things that we actually make money on in the city and so I should be very careful about um uh put you know forking over our our uh right so I don't know if you can address that or if somebody from VMS wants to address that.

Um so you're right when we come into any tow lot the first thing that we do is we we analyze it, we figure out what we need to invest in.

Um we move cars a little bit differently uh so we invest uh r right out of the gate with a uh with the front loader which runs in you know the hundred and fifty to two hundred and twenty five thousand dollar range so we will bring that in any fence repairs that need to be done, any security that needs to be added we'll even bring it we have to bring our own circuit in uh because we will not use the city city circuit uh you know we because we are private.

So we we do bring all that in we do we generally will regrade the entire lot uh we'll bring gravel in uh really get it to a point where we are comfortable moving cars on that lot in and out and and the main reason for that is obviously you know damage and everything else that goes along with that.

Are we storing cars properly?

Are we doing you know are we taking care of the citizens of of Toledo's cars.

So getting the lot set up and ready to go is is one of the first things that we do in in the first in the first couple months as as we're here.

So there is an investment that goes along with that.

There's an investment in recruiting uh we do hire all local all folks the the manager will be local, the the staff will be local uh supported clearly on a national level uh which which we feel is is an asset and a benefit because it's things change throughout the country uh as fees change, these are things that we can help the city of Toledo benchmark against.

When you talk about where storage fees, where are tow fees, where are any other ancillary fees, you know, if you're looking to do something different there, we can, you know, we can benchmark it benchmark against 15, 20, 25 other cities if if we need to.

So I know it's not exactly what you just asked, but for for the most part that is is some of the benefit that we that we bring in.

And I think the the key thing for us in any community that we come into is are we taking care of the citizens?

Is our technology helping to take care of this of citizens?

Do we offer transparency?

Do we offer transparency on on whether it's auctions or whether it's the fees that are there do we give citizens the ability to potentially look up their car pay online yes we can bring that uh into the the equation as well.

Everything is system tracked and again when we work with the tow companies which is something we do all over the country our national response time for an officer once they request a request a tow to the time the tow shows up right now we're at about 13 and a half minutes.

So getting you know reducing secondary accidents for the citizens of Toledo for officers for that matter that's something that we do and we do very very well and one of the things I'll I'll I'll add and I'll close on and happy to answer any other questions.

We are in several cities I've been with this company for for a long time in one former or another we have never lost a contract.

So when we come into a city we work we we work hand in hand with council members we work hand in hand with uh Toledo PD and and PD all over the country uh community members everything that we do and so it is it is important to us we even have a uh um our VMS cares uh folks that that come in and can work uh to to help you know charity events and and things like that we become part of the community and part of the solution so that's part of why I think we've we've been our are we been able to to sustain these contracts is because we truly don't come in and push everybody out and say you know we're here to do it our way no we're here to work with you guys.

We're here to try to make this a better experience for everybody and we're certainly here to protect the citizens to protect their vehicles to protect them against claims and to take care of them if and when that happens and we do take all of that responsibility on and remove that from the city uh through through our contract and indemnifying the city on the actions that happen out there.

Thank you very much that that's that was very comprehensive answer.

I just one last question for the chief would be uh why and I wasn't here for a gender review at that point so I'm sorry if this is already answered but why did we waive competitive bidding?

I mean uh why didn't we are there not other firms that do this and what what was the reason behind that.

Yes it that is uh our understanding there is no other firm that does this package that we're signing on with BMS.

Okay all right terrific thank you again Mr.

Chairman Council.

Thank you Mr.

Chair I know I've asked a lot of questions but this is important legislation.

I'd like to know uh in terms of your operation the auctions of the vehicles you're auctioning them off in Toledo to people that are coming to the lot to buy them or or how do you do that?

So we use a completely online platform it's actually integrated within our system one of the reasons we like that is because as bids come in it's completely transparent and available for anybody to look at at any given time but it is a national system our auction platform is national.

We have 10,000 active bidders on that auction platform we have 5000 registered bidders on that platform uh just in this this last year so that's part of of what we are bringing in so we are we're advertising locally we're pushing out to to local parts dealers and and everybody else but we're also seeing what we can get and pull in from surrounding states and even states yeah or even states that are across the country on certain vehicles there might have a special interest in that so our auction platform as well it takes a look at buy buying characteristics of of certain people whether it's bulk buyers or individual buyers looks at that and says okay are you typically buying this kind of car.

If that's the case we have one coming up in the auction next week and then we're push marketing out on that so that's part of how we are driving up average sale price on cars.

So in your operations around the country, um uh are most of the buyers that are buying these automobiles are most of them local or what what percent would be out of out of the greater metropolitan vicinity.

Yeah, on uh pretty much across the country, it varies a little bit, but roughly seven to eight percent are are somewhat of outside and we kind of we consider outside really outside of the surrounding counties as well, uh, because generally uh especially for in-person auctions or even online auctions to an extent, um, and this is more for for the in-person, you know, um, those are folks that aren't gonna make the make the uh the trip necessarily to come and participate in a weekly auction or or a bi-monthly auction, but so about seven to eight percent are usually from from out of state, so to speak, the rest of them are in state, and a lot of times it will be companies like a pick apart or pull apart uh that are you know national, but they have a local presence.

Okay, so I want to make sure I understand that.

Seven to eight percent or seventy to eighty percent.

Seven to eight.

Seven to eight are outside the greater metropolitan area.

Yeah, it on on average.

Now we'll see what that means for for Toledo if when we have the opportunity.

All right.

So I mean it would s it would seem from my perspective that if it's under ten percent, it's not gonna really bring in that much additional revenue over and above what we're already doing because most people ninety percent, ninety-two percent are local people buying these vehicles for whatever reason, parts and so forth.

Am I wrong on that?

Sorry.

No, the average sale price on your car right now.

When the blended sale price between what you're scrapping, direct scrapping and what you are selling competitively right now sets at about 725 dollars, I believe.

Our average in this area for when we look at Indianapolis, when we look at even Memphis and Nashville, uh we run about nine fifty to nine seventy-five.

So it does make the difference being able to push that out.

When we were a local comp when we were doing a local auction in Indianapolis, uh our average sale price uh set at around five fifty six hundred.

It sets today right at that nine fifty nine seventy-five.

We've proven that being able to push that out really does bring in um bids, and that's really the key.

It's not necessarily about who ends up with the car, it's who's participating in bidding the car up.

A lot of times local folks still end up with it, but they're paying a little bit more than what they used to because of the competitive process.

So that is that's that's really the key difference in in how that works.

We just analyzed this for the city of San Antonio, who had looked at it possibly bringing this back into an in-person auction uh and removing it offline.

They thought maybe this is something we should try and and go back to.

And when we looked at those outside bidders, they were they said at about 12%.

It represented another million dollars in in bid uh bid price.

Now they sell significantly more cars than City of Toledo.

However, those characteristics are repeatable throughout throughout the country for in scale, depending on you know the level of volume that you have.

Okay.

Well, thank you very much.

Appreciate that.

Absolutely.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Okay, I believe I have I think the names up while I have them here, have everybody up front.

I'm gonna try to allow a couple of questions to be asked, um, and let me know if this is what you signed up to talk about.

I think I have Patrick McKinney and I think Joel Maltese.

Are you wanting to talk about this?

Would you please come forward, please?

Yeah.

Thank you.

I'm Patrick McKinney.

Uh the I work with U Polar Parts, who's the local supplier.

We we have the salvage bid.

Uh we're under contract with the city right now.

That contract is a three-year contract, annual renewal.

So we have that, it was just renewed.

Um, it was just renewed.

Um so we we there's a couple uh there's other parts of the story here, I think, for local for the for the council members, and we have the salvage bid.

Um we we we produce that bid and um we we we would be an interested bidder in perhaps the full takeover.

We didn't know the scope of the work.

We have a software program that's perhaps not BMS, but we do we do have our own tolling platform.

We tow cars uh we we bring the cars to us for our operation in Minnesota.

Um but so we but without without the scope of work and what what we would know or what's necessary, um we work with the officers at the impound um uh day in day out, and if it was something that was uh there was a problem or it wasn't working, we're not aware of it, um, because we use planet bids for that platform to see if there was gonna be a bid.

Um the full circle purpose of UPOL uh council of men is we the cars are depolluted locally.

Um we set them out, and the citizens of Toledo buy parts off the cars in uh in in the last year.

We've had about forty-three thousand attendees spending on average thirty to thirty five dollars per admission to fix their car and keep it on the road in Toledo.

So we are those those customers are in and around the city, and uh, and we believe that we're an asset to keep driving affordable for the citizens of Toledo because those cars are put on stands in at North Detroit Avenue, whatever we buy from there is is available for the citizens to Toledo to pull the parts off of.

So a full circle, uh a full circle explanation of what happens to the cars when they go to salvage and what happens to the constituents in the city is this is a benefit for the citizens, not only in the revenue that we pay the city for our bid that we have at 595.

There was one point one uh one million one hundred and four thousand nine hundred and fifteen dollars that we paid in uh from May to May uh for what we paid what we paid for the salvage units, and then also what the citizens of Toledo are able to pull the parts off of and uh put on their own cars locally.

So we believe there's a full story to having a local supplier, uh local recycler do that work.

Okay.

Um, say what?

Did you have something to say?

Okay.

I just use any questions for us.

One question before you see up there.

You do have um the um you do have a system, but it's just not on the level of their system as far as cars and that's on the right.

So I mean, for for towing purposes on what we do when we buy cars from the general public on somebody who is end of life or do that stuff, we have an integrated system that is already to pick up your vehicle at this time at this place to the scale that is the what the city is towing right now, not at the moment.

Um, but I but I don't but I didn't I don't know what that would look like if we needed that, right?

So uh without knowing what the scope of work may or may not be.

Uh we we do have tow trucks in Minnesota, we have seven of them at our facility there.

We have two on property here in Ohio or at in Toledo.

But to the scope of what that looks like, I don't know uh what would what would be needed, but we would be interested in perhaps looking at it if we knew what was necessary or what needed.

So, yep, thank you.

Um do I have a representative from Pamela Rolls?

Thank you.

Is Mr.

Haynes here with us, I'll just make sure you uh didn't speak up.

Thank you.

All right.

This is also my son Jordan Rose.

He works with us.

He may add a add a few comments.

So thank you for allowing me to speak.

Uh it's very important to me.

Um, so good evening.

Uh my name is Pamela Rose.

I'm with the Pamela Rose auction company.

I do have a contract with the city.

I didn't bring it with me, but I've got it.

Um I have been involved in auction profession since I was 18 years old.

So I'll let you figure out how how old I am.

Uh working alongside my father, what has become a lifelong career, my passion in the auction industry.

It's my hobby, my sport.

I love it.

I work all the time.

I always feel like I know everyone in Toledo.

I've also worked the impound auction since I was 19 years old.

Giving me decades of first-hand operational experience with how the city, city's vehicle disposal process functions.

Completely.

Over my career, I've conducted more than 30,000 auctions.

I thought about bringing my wagon in here because I have really kept a copy of everything I've ever done, done a lot of auctions.

Invol involving municipal assets, vehicles, real estate, commercial liquidations, industrial properties throughout Ohio, Michigan, and across the United States.

I'm a graduate and hall of fame member of the Repert Auction School of Auctioneering.

I'm a lifetime member of the National Auctioneers Association.

Auctioneers from all over the country, I network with, and that's where we get our education.

I'm a graduate of certified auctioneers institute at Indiana University.

I also serve as an instructor at the Rupert School of Auctioneering.

In addition, I was appointed by Governor Kasich to serve serve two terms on the Ohio Auction Commission, where I participated in oversight of licensing and regulatory standards and helping rewrite the Ohio REPI's Code 4707 for Ohio auctioneering.

I am fully licensed.

I am bonded, which is regulated in the state of Ohio.

As far as I can tell, the other firm is not licensed to protect the public, ensure accountability, and safeguard public funds.

Throughout my career, I've handled major regional and national projects, including the Dana Corporation auction, the headquarters, the Ford Industry Square, the French Quarter, and the former headquarters and relocation of the Andersons.

That's just a few to mention.

I also did the Dunbar auction, which generated 23 million dollars, which was the largest auction in the state of Ohio.

Our firm has provided auction and asset services for major institutions, including GE franchise and Bank of America, First Federal of the Midwest, WebCo, Huntington National Bank, and I can go on and on.

Happy to supply that information.

Locally, our firm again conducted the Dunbar auction at 23 million dollars in assets sold.

We've also achieved significant high value results in individual transactions, including a collector car that sold for 225,000 that I shipped to the state of California.

Okay, I'll speed it up.

But we've done numerous autos.

We just shipped, matter of fact, the one of the police boats went to California, and I wish I had the picture because they had sent it to me.

This year alone, we have sold and shipped three vehicles to California, demonstrating our national reach and the ability to move assets across state lines.

Our sales reach expands Ohio, Michigan, and across the United States with consistent participation from national and out of state buyers.

In just the last five years, the City of Toledo auction program has generated $3.4 million that I've paid the city.

That's not for the ones with U-Pull parts, that's the ones I've sold.

Documented revenue through 16 public auctions, including 1,264 vehicles sold.

This equates to 212,000 per auction in a nearly $2,700 average on the vehicles that I've sold.

Importantly, that does not include additional revenue generated through your fixed price with non-operable salvage and scrap vehicles.

These are documented results, not projections or assumptions.

The current system at the inpound is working.

This discussion arose in connection with the proposed transition to VMS and is important that console base any decision on documented results rather than projections or statements that we think or we hope the auction can do more.

Public revenue decisions should be grounded in verified performance, not assumptions without supporting data.

It is important to recognize that changes to established auction processes can also reduce the revenue spending, and buyer participation, market reach, and competition are affected.

The proceeds from the impound auctions go directly to the city's general fund.

The key point is that the program is not theoretical.

It is functioning stream that has consistently produced measurable results for City of Toledo.

Auction performance is not created by software alone.

It is created by experience, marketing reach, buyer relationships, compliance, and the ability to create true competitive bidding.

It is important to diminish between asset types.

Many impound and non-operable vehicles are sold into salvage dismantling markets because they are burned or wrecked or scrap units.

Those should not be sold at auction.

Those vehicles are valued primarily for material recovery based on scrap.

Any proposed change involving public auction services should be evaluated based on documented performance and accountability.

Ohio is a licensed and regulated auction state for a reason to protect the public and the public funds.

Any entity involved in public auction services should be properly licensed, bonded, and fully accountable under Ohio law.

Public decisions involving taxpayer assets should be based on documented results, measurable performance, not assumptions that a different system would perform better without evidence and report or and reports.

At the end of the day, this is protecting taxpayer value, maintaining public trust, ensuring that the city continues to receive strong results.

And I am passionate, but I live here and I am a national firm.

And I can support all of this.

So maybe maybe people didn't know, but now you know.

I am a superstar in the auction industry.

People all over the United States know exactly who I am.

And I've done this a very long time.

So I did, and I can pass this out.

I do have some statistical information, but my percentage a lot of state buyers is higher.

I'll hand it to you.

Um okay, one and I'll finish up.

It's a white label platform.

I also sell online on the national platform.

Thank you, Mr.

Hox.

Thank you.

Oh, there was somebody that didn't sign up.

Mr.

Kareem, but okay.

Mr.

Rides.

Thank you, Councilpersons.

Um, I guess I'd like to open up with uh the chief and I are most certainly on board with each other with talking um with where our records people go and stuff like that.

We are not at odds uh one way or the other.

Um so there is there is dialogue and there is a path forward with us, so whatever decision you make, we most certainly are able to work with.

So I don't want there to be any thoughts that there's not a path forward between the chief and I and how our people operate.

Um that's number one.

Number two is I've had uh conversations with my people in the toll lot.

Of course, they feel that they do a very professional job out there.

Um, may or may not have been an insinuation that uh they may not, but they are, I believe they are, and they do like being out there in the toll lot.

Um, so that is just kind of here and there.

Um I will say mostly um we do have a contract with outside communities, and I just wanted to make sure that they were aware that our toll lot will be uh or could possibly be with the private entity, and that that's okay with them.

Um we actually currently have a grievance with that, and I wouldn't want that to fall uh in between the cracks while we do this transfer with the toll out that most certainly can be addressed down the road, but it just I don't want this into the past to just disappear.

Um this is more of a question for this uh the VMS company is uh you know, how do they deal with warrants and suspended operators when they show up?

Do they have the ability to run office or to run people and find out if they have warrants or if they're suspended, or will they be driving suspended uh cars off the lot and then potentially causing uh probable you know problems or liabilities, and although they might sign a contract that says they are, you know, they take the liability hit on everything, you can bet your bottom dollar that someone's gonna come sue the city too.

That's just kind of how that always works.

Excuse me.

Um I have a question on, and like I said, I don't think that these are questions necessarily for you guys to answer, but maybe just questions that I have more for transparency of the company, um, as you guys as we would inquire more.

Um, not only as uh my position in the union, but also my you know, as a citizen.

I'm a citizen of Toledo, I've lived in Toledo my whole life.

Um, proud to be an officer and still live in the city.

So, um, as far as uh the fees for towing, uh towing fees, uh storage fees, uh what any fees that are uh assimilated with the toll lot.

Will we still maintain the ability to control those fees or will we relinquish those to the private entity and will the private entity then hike those fees up um unnecessarily or whatever?

That's somewhat of a concern.

Um and if it is just that easy, then why aren't we just hiking the fees up and just taking it ourselves, such as the trash fees?

So I have that.

I'm sure that since VMS is such a large um national company.

Um, not that I have any suggestions that they don't, but how do we handle, and maybe you guys know, but I do not know it's just more is there an answer to what happens when they find contraband or whatever, however, infrequently it may be in cars, is there a path to taking care of that?

And I believe the chief said there was a liaison, so probably that'll be handled through the liaison.

So I understand that also.

Um more importantly, I do have some questions, problems with the numbers as you just move the columns down in basic addition and subtraction.

Um the years of 21, 22, 23, 24, and 25, between the total revenues minus the subtotal expenditures.

Um, those that math just doesn't math.

Um so I don't know if those are just typos or what, and it's only off by a little bit here and there, but uh if we're talking a little bit here and there, well that's a little bit here and there.

So um more specifically what I have somewhat of a doubt about VMS on the low end claims that the uh junk auto salvage on the low end is a one point six seven one and the high end of 2.141.

Um that range is claiming that they will bring in another six hundred and thirty thousand to one point one million dollars better than our average of what we've done over the last several years.

That seems fairly incredulous to me.

It's a sixty-two percent increase on the low end and a hundred and five percent increase on the high end.

I don't know how you can double the amount of a used car.

I mean, even if you raise the price a little bit or jack it up a little bit, I don't see a sixty two percent to a hundred and five percent increase on any scrap and or used vehicle at an auction.

Uh however, I will say, using the MS's numbers that was just given right here as we sit, he says our average sell car or something like that is a seven hundred and twenty-five dollar value, and their value is in the range of nine fifty to nine seventy-five.

Quick mathematics on my little phone is a maximum of 31% increase.

So even with the usage of their own number, they don't match the 62 to 105% uh difference.

I find that to be uh very telling in that, and I could be wrong.

Um, but those are the numbers that I'm presented in the numbers that are given here given to you guys.

Um line 53 or so excuse me.

537410 contractual services.

When you carry that line, um if you go to the 26 adopted, and it doesn't really matter which which which year you pick, but the 26 uh adopted is 1.472.

Um when you carry over when you look over into the low end and the high end, it's the 2.196.

That is my assumption that that's just the fee to the company.

Now if there is still a and this was not um clear to me either, if VMS, well they did say that they're using our toll companies.

So a portion of that 1.472 million is kit or not kickbacks, but money that is apportioned back to the tow companies for towing.

That is not included in the two point one nine six.

So that number will be higher, or it should be higher as reported on both the low and the high end.

Um I'm not sure what the cost is for the Pamela Rose portion of it, which they will incur um because they have their own type of auction thing, and that that is what it is, but there is still even at a 40 or 30% rate, you can add another four hundred thousand dollars to that two point one nine six, and according to the chart under uh letter C in year three it goes to two point four seven one.

Yes, sir, I'll be very brief and almost finished.

Um so they're this is based on their first two years.

I'm pretty sure their third, fourth, and fifth year they'll be at the two point four seven million um and go from there.

So I guess um that changes those numbers drastically on the and if we're talking marginal at best.

If you submit anything else you have for us, Mr.

Hayes, please buy referral.

I'm sorry, sir.

I think could we please submit anything else we have by referral?

Of course.

I'm not I'm not very sure about that, but of course we can.

Thank you, sir.

Um, I guess I would just uh like to finish with uh there's a lot of moving parts and with a marginal.

I understand, but I gave double the time to my last two speakers, please.

Wonderful.

Thank you.

If you have any questions, please feel free to contact me.

Please contact Mr.

Hayes with any further questions.

Okay.

Um I need to.

Is this something you could submit councilman by referral?

Alright, thank you.

The last part of this, I need to get to um I want to thank everyone for being here and everything that came forth.

Thank our chief.

Thank VM, thank um our union.

Thank you, Ms.

Rawls, thank you for everyone being here.

And um, if you have any further questions, please please submit them by referral.

I still have to get to um councilwoman um Kramer and then Richard still has a question to ask.

So thank you all.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilwoman Kramer is going to present now our gun violence awareness sister sisters for you to Councilwoman McCramer.

Thank you, Chair.

Uh yeah, I would like to welcome um Aviance Hill and Janelle Echter up to the microphones.

Um they are co-founders of Sisters for Unity.

Um, yeah.

Thank you so much for sticking around, being willing to share your expertise with us today.

Uh June is gun violence awareness month, so it's very important to us, um, to plan some activities around honoring our survivors, and to make sure um Toledoans know about all of the great agencies uh that are doing the work here.

So, ladies, I will uh turn it over to you.

Um you're gonna need to push the button on the microphone there.

Thank you, ladies, for being here today.

Thank you so much.

Thank you for having us.

Um, good afternoon.

My name is Janelle Eckner.

I am one of the co-founders of Silicon Unity, and also uh, um, sorry, and also a member of locals Ohio parents of murdered children.

I am also the mother of Treasure Wiley whose murder remains unsolved since twenty nineteen.

Uh there's a different kind of pain that comes with not having answers.

Um every day, families like mine wake up wondering who knows something, who stays silent, will we ever get justice?

Will our loved ones' case ever matter enough?

And it's all time aside, these families trapped in a cycle of grief, uncertainty and fever.

You replay moments over and over in your mind, you question everything, you carry hope and heartbreak at the same time.

And while the world moves on, families are still waiting.

We're waiting for answers, accountability, and closure that may never fully come.

Gun violence impacts our entire communities a long after the a long time after the crime scene is clear.

Children are affected, parents are affected, schools are affected, the neighborhoods are affected.

And survivors often become responsible for helping whole families and communities together while we ourselves are grieving.

Um that's why prevention matters.

Um, that is why intervention matters.

That is why community partnerships matter so much in the work that we do.

And that is why families impacted by violence needs support, resources, communication, and a seat at the table.

The work being done through Sisters for Unity and Northwest Ohio Parents of Murdered Children is rooted in live experience and survivor support.

We are helping families not only survive tragedy, but navigate what comes after, which is grief support, emotional support, survivor outreach, healing events, wellness initiatives, violence prevention efforts, advocacy, communities against violence marches, unity day events, compassion companion support, which is vital in holding families together.

Um survivor baskets with household and emergency essentials and blessing cleanings for families impacted by trauma and loss.

This is one that's near and dear to my heart.

When I lost my son, it was at home.

There was no resource for me to do what they call a biohazard cleaning, which basically I I meet and his godmom, scrub my son's remains off the sidewalk at my home.

That is something now that is offered through funding with through Northwood Ohio Parents of Murdering Children.

I know firsthand how important this service is.

Could you imagine the trauma?

You just held your sons into this last breath.

You come back from the hospital and the questions of detectives.

And now you must also clean the time scene.

Um, after loss, people don't think about the funerals and flowers.

They don't think about the silent things grief steals from families.

Laundry house up, dishes sit untouched, toilet paper runs out, soap runs out.

Sometimes families are just trying to survive the next hour.

That is why these services matter and are so very, very important.

Excuse me, good afternoon.

Thank you for having us again.

Thank you here for inviting us.

My name is Abby Ant Hill.

I'm the mother of Isaac Carpenter, a victim of gun violence here in Toledo.

I am also co-founder of Sisters for Unity and chapter leader of Northwest Ohio Parents for Murdered Children.

I'm here today, not as an as an advocate, but as a mother of a surv of a surviving something, no parent should ever have to survive.

Gun violence does not end when the shooting stops.

For families like ours, it changes everything.

It changes how we sleep, how we parent, how we grieve, how we function financially, emotionally, mentally, and spiritually.

And often survivors are expected to somehow carry all of that quietly while still trying to survive every day.

That reality impacts not only me, but my surviving children, my grandson and our entire family system and our community as well.

Public safety cannot only mean responding after violence happened.

Public safety must also include the trauma support, the survivor support, the prevention, youth intervention, mental health access, safe community spaces, retaliation prevention, support for surviving siblings and children, because survivors are often trying to hold entire families together after the tragedy, but also our communities, our neighbors, our friends, and our family.

Many of us become crisis responders without the training.

We become Greece counselors to our children, protectors, advocates, funeral planners, and community voices, all white breeding ourselves.

Through Sisters Community in Northwest Ohio, parents of murdered children.

We work every day, we train, we advocate, we go to convenings, we learn, we educate ourselves.

We become those trained responders.

We become from lived experience to being experienced.

We also be the blessings cleaning, like Janelle mentioned for families impacted by trauma and loss, survivor baskets filled with everyday essentials that often disappear during grief and crisis, including the toiletries, the tissues, the soap, laundry detergent, water, gift cards, household necessities, and now gun locks and compassion companion support, a hope line.

We don't call it a crisis line because we don't want people to know that every minute of every day is not a crisis, so it's a hope line.

So when they call, when it's answered, it's hope.

Survivor retreat, wellness days, so survivors know we give them a spa day.

Phone calls, communities against violence marches, immunity days.

You guys know our next one is coming up August 22nd.

We've been to that.

Um, ongoing survivor and advocates outreach and workshops.

These are the things that many families need immediately after the tragedy, but too often they are navigating alone.

Some of these resources and support systems did not exist when families like ours experienced loss.

They do exist now, and they will always exist as long as we have breath.

This is why this work matters.

We need survivor informed policy.

Nothing about survivors should happen without survivors being included at the table.

Our lived experiences matter.

Organizations like Sisters for Unity and Northwest Ohio parents of murdered children are doing critical work in this city, but we need continued collaboration, investment, and support.

Not just during awareness month in June, not just after tragedies, but consistently every day, every night.

My son Isaac should still be here.

Treasure Wiley should still be here, and so many other families and family members and our community members, our neighbors, our friends, our families, our co-workers should still be here.

We cannot change what happens to our families, but we can decide what kind of city we will become because of it.

We will learn from the lives that we lost, the families that we lost, the friends that we lost.

Public safety must include the people we left behind.

And thank you.

That's a library, please.

I do, yes.

Uh, thank you very much to both of you for being here today, uh, for sitting through our lovely discussion about the Impact Law.

But really, thank you for all you do every single day.

Um, I have learned so much from you all and all of the uh gun violence prevention advocates in Toledo.

Um, you know, when I started this work, it was because I was worried about school shootings, and I've learned so much about what happens right here in our city, and all of those individuals who have been lost and all the families who have a whole because of of those people who have been lost.

So thank you so much for being here and for all that you do.

I appreciate it.

Thank you.

Um I do want to invite Lucas uh Camuso Saul from the library to come up.

Um he's gonna speak to um our gun locks, so as you guys um were talking about, um, we're very excited that we have gun locks in all of our libraries now.

Um, and Lucas did provide a very exciting update about that, so he's behind just so he's just gonna talk for a minute about that.

Hello everyone, council members.

I'm Lucas Camusa Stahl, Chief of Staff at the Toledo Lucas County Public Library.

Um, firstly to you two, thank you so much for sharing your stories and for your great community work that you're doing.

We very much so appreciate it.

Um, just a really quick update on gun locks at the library.

So I think tomorrow marks exactly one month since we launched uh Toledo Lucas County Public Library branches serving as locations that anyone in our community can come and get a free gun lock.

They have to be over the age of 18, they can request up to two locks at their visit, uh, but otherwise no questions asked.

Um, and I think this is uh another testimony to how public libraries continuously step up to share all forms of information.

Uh and in this circumstance, hopefully we can share some life-saving tools and life-saving informations on gun safety.

But again, as I just noted, we haven't even hit a full month, and we have already distributed four hundred and sixty-six gun locks across all of our locations, which is an amazing statistic.

Some of our locations that are very high performers are both our urban and suburban alike.

We've distributed uh, let's see, twenty-one gun locks at our Holland branch, twenty-two at our Lagrange branch, nineteen at Mommy, thirty at Oregon, sixty-five gun locks at Sanger, eighteen at West Toledo, eighty two at Sylvania.

So again, we're meeting a need of community members all across Lucas County, which is exactly what we want this program to do.

Um so I thank the council for again constantly uh coming to the library and and collaborating with us and finding out ways that you can partner with the library.

We are a public resource, we're a public platform.

Uh and please use us as such.

And thank you, Councilwoman Kramer, uh, for being such a wonderful partner in this work as well.

We really appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thank you, Lucas, for all you do um for our library system.

And I am just blown away by how many gun locks we've given away already.

We have to get some more.

And we are getting them for free um from the VA healthcare system in Ann Arbor.

So that is very important.

Um, but yeah, I I think it's very important because we did make that decision to distribute them throughout the whole county.

Um, they are at all of the branches of the Toledo Lucas County Public Library System.

And um we do have a copy of the numbers over there if anybody wants to grab it.

Um, because, you know, it does show that our suburban areas are also um seeking those.

So I do plan to talk to the Lucas County Commissioners a little bit about, you know, spreading the love for the gun locks a little.

Um I do also just want to point out quickly, because I know we've been here a little while, but we do have um a flyer on the table over there.

All the council people have these as well, about all of the things that we are doing for um gun violence awareness month, and I know the Sisters for Unity are partners on some of these things.

Um, but we do have uh National Gun Violence Awareness Day, where we will be reading the names of all of the people who were killed by gun violence in 2025.

Um that is gonna be on Jan on June fifth.

Um at the June 9th council meeting, we will be declaring June as National Gun Violence Awareness Month, and then we will have an unwanted firearms disposal drive-through event on June 13th.

So if you know anybody who has firearms that they want to get rid of, they maybe inherited them and they don't want them anymore, they can get a gift card.

Um and they, you know, if they want to come, they can make art out of disposed um guns.

So that's gonna be a really great event, and that's at um in Road Street United Methodist Church.

And then we will also have a gun violence prevention panel, um, where we will have some great um guest speakers and aviance will be there as well.

So thank you so much for giving me this opportunity.

Um and I'll give it back to the chair.

All right.

Please, thank you so much I I have participated in some of your events at the libraries and um been in the parade uh a few times and um when I couldn't walk in the parade I got there after the parade but was at the park walking around and so this is amazing good to see you Lucas haven't seen you in a while thank you for helping us with this and um so uh we continue you know if councilwoman cramer is leading the charge it is going to get done and we are all committed to this work and um that's why I thought it was so important that she be here and we talk about this today.

Um thank you ladies from um Lieutenant Gina Shapetta CERP Bureau supervisor um she just wanted us to know the Toledo Fire and Rescue Department is committed to helping keep our residents safe with fire prevention and early detection initiatives.

Free smoke alarms are available to residents at Toledo fire stations while supplies last we encourage residents to contact the local fire station for availability.

In addition the American Red Cross partners with Toledo Fire Department to provide smoke alarm installations for residents in need while supplies and program support remains available residents may schedule an appointment for a smoke alarm instead installation by contacting the American Red Cross smoke alarm program directly 419380 0 11 0.

Thank you as we continue to work together and last but not least he has waited a long time but he knows how this goes Richard has a question comment for us.

Thank you ladies uh Richard Arnold thank you for the opportunity to speak I will be brief.

If you recall on March the twelfth there was an incident in West Bloomfield Michigan where a man drove his truck into a synagogue uh he was loaded with explosives and cancer gasoline there were more than a hundred children in attendance as it turns out he only injured a security guard and ended up taking his own life by shooting himself and remember this is only like six months after an attack at Grand Blanc they had that that was the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints very similar so at the press conference uh they they revealed the timeline at approximately 1219 the attack occurred and about seven minutes later at 1226 the man's neighbors called the local police and asked for a welfare check because for days he had been acting erratically at the press conference it was made very clear had that call come in earlier we might have prevented this and that's certainly a possibility and their advice for the public was in these turbulent times though let's err on the side of caution anything that you see about fr from your neighbors call the the local police now I have a problem with that and I just wanted to express that could this committee look at what are we doing in Toledo how many welfare checks are Toledo police doing and what are the results how many result in someone being taken to a mental health facility or taken to jail a deceased individual or a false alarm and no need for police intervention and can we use that information in a public awareness campaign when should you call TPD for a welfare check and when you might call other resources in the community if you have concerns about a friend, family or neighbor because across the country we're seeing so many tragedies where someone calls in a report on an emotionally disturbed person and when the police get there things escalate quickly and things turn tragic very quickly we've seen that a few times in Toledo and I don't want to see it again.

So could this committee look at how many welfare checks are TPD doing and what are the results of those welfare checks.

Thank you for the opportunity to speak.

Thank you Richard thank you so much and we will definitely get those questions to the chief, I believe my aide Andrea has those questions, and we will give those to the chief.

Thank you.

Alright.

I really appreciate my fellow council members who uh have come here today and um everyone's ready to start their holiday weekend.

But um I thank you for um the heart for public safety.

The summer months are coming, you know, for some reason heat always seems to give rise to violent occurrences, and so we are hoping.

Sorry, I I I don't see that.

Come on, sir.

Come on, sir.

If you all were to go understand, I wasn't I wasn't aware of the procedure.

I've I've no problem, you have three minutes, sir.

I've uh typed a let a letter here for everyone.

Um Shannon Cameron of Toledo Lock and Key.

I've worked with the uh Toledo Police impound for since two thousand one, so the last twenty five years, and they pressed me to open their when vehicles show up locked.

Um may have contraband, some may have firearms.

Uh I personally have had to alert, you know, the police at the impound.

Sometimes uh there's drugs packaged for distribution.

Uh I uh give you one case.

There was an AK forty seven with several loaded magazines and uh half a five gallon bucket full of loose ammunition.

I mean, there's there's some serious stuff that turns up in some of these cars sometimes, and I'm not only concerned about losing my position out there, which I'll be honest with you I am, but also a private entity, you know, coming upon some of these items that are found in some of these vehicles is it's quite scary.

And without, you know, police being right there to be able to deal with it, I'm a little concerned about that.

Um evidence.

A lot of these vehicles are in there because they were involved in a crime and the police can't get in the trunk.

And there's the chain of evidence thing.

I was uh personally involved in an armed robbery.

I was robbed at gunpoint on April 10th, and the vehicle showed up at the impound lot that they stole to actually smash into the back of my van and rob me at gunpoint of a piece of equipment.

And I was really worried about these people not being prosecuted because if they didn't find the vehicle or something was tampered with in the vehicle, because I know that they did uh DNA.

Long story short, uh every everything was fine.

Uh the uh suspects and custody is waiting trial and stuff like that.

But I'm just kinda worried about that as well, because there's a lot of sensitive things that can be in some of these vehicles.

And that's basically all I had to say, but I do have a letter that I typed up yesterday.

If I could give it to you guys, and I I again I apologize.

Again, sir, I apologize.

I did not have your information in you, so I apologize, but thank you for thinking enough to come here and share your heart today and write the letter.

We appreciate every input of every citizen.

That's what we're here for, and I apologize that I did not correctly get that information to you for you to know what to do.

Oh, I I but I I I didn't know I just don't know.

No, you're just saying, that's all me.

I think all responsibility.

I that's on me, and I apologize.

But thank you for waiting, and thank you for coming.

Well, thank you for letting me speak.

Thank you, sir.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay.

F that be all.

This meeting is adjourned.

I don't know what I'm going to do.

I was just going to say why I got a wall.

If I ask you to go to the bottom, it's like a big thing.

Do you feel like that's something that you can do?

So it's important to do that.

Oh, I don't know.

I think that's not a good idea.

Yeah, I don't know.

Okay.

I think we're going to be putting on the next one.

I would have to work on that.

Oh, I'm not going to do it.

I think it's not a good one.

You know what I mean?

So I think that's a good one.

I think that would have to be one of those.

I don't know.

I don't think it's a little bit more than what I'm going to do.

Why is it?

Oh, I don't know if you can use the trends.

So we have to do it.

Yeah, I learned that we want to do that.

So, yeah, so you can be better than you.

I don't know how much.

It's like a piece of the back.

I don't want to use the other.

I mean, how you feel it?

So we respond to it, yeah.

So I don't think you're worried about it.

Yeah.

It's super important.

So our number is not here.

And it is in the park, or without people thinking that we need more.

Yeah.

So here we have a lot of things.

Yeah, and we can have a lot of people.

We should have a time.

And there are a lot of the other one.

Yeah.

We're going to have a lot of people.

Thank you for what you did.

Hey, you know, more girlfriend.

Sure, yeah.

So we get through.

Oh my god.

We're talking about the public safety game power.

Oh yeah, yeah, for sure.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yeah, I yeah.

Yep.

She's uh, looking over here.

That's right.

Only your thoughts maybe a little bit quieter during that conversation, but sometimes the best comments come from those who don't speak much.

So what is this?

What's your perspective on that?

Yeah.

Honestly, I kept wanting to hit my button, and then somebody would ask the question that I have.

So it's almost like Jeopardy where you gotta be quick on the buzzer.

But no, I am really looking at the math and looking at you know, it's a it's a very expensive country.

It's over two million dollars.

How much is it?

Two point four million.

Yeah, there's a charge.

Yes, yeah.

So two point four million dollars.

That's a lot of money.

And as President Williams was saying, if this is gonna be more money that it's coming into the city, great.

But we don't have any uh guarantee that it's gonna be more money coming into the city.

So I think there's a lot of reservations on all of council.

Do you have any like do you personal?

I do have reservations.

You know, listening to you know the folks that were here today, um both the police, uh police union, and as well as, you know, Pamela Rose was here, Patrick McKinney was here.

People who make their living at the toll up right now.

And so I mean, yeah, I mean, there are serious reservations because really they're saying, okay, we're gonna pay that 2.4 million with more money that's gonna be generated from selling these cars.

And, you know, like somebody was saying earlier, the math's not mapping for me.

It's that's tough.

So I think we all have a lot of thinking to do before we go in with that.

Do you think there's a chance it'll come up next Tuesday?

Yes.

Yeah.

Can I just get a prediction of what you're in about?

I'm not sure.

Actually, I mean, I there's a lot of information to read.

There was a lot of you heard referrals.

So there's gonna be a lot of referral information coming in in the next couple days.

So I'm hoping to be able to read that stuff.

Um, yeah.

Sometimes it comes down to when we sit in our chairs on Tuesday, after we've really thought about it.

So it's hard for me to kind of make that call right now.

But I put a lot of time and effort into every single vote that we take.

I want to make sure I'm educated as I can be because this is money that is taxpayer money, and I do not take that lightly.

Yeah, I like them, yeah, yeah.

No problem at all.

Did you ever get a chance to talk to Matt?

No, but I want to do it.

Yeah, but it is any indication, and I think it's a good one.

Thank you for having me.

Oh, uh, you know, I'm on the I see the TFT.

I keep talking about TMS.

I need to take breaking on the time, so many people are going.

This is this is the call, of course.

Just wait till you're back starting to go.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I would go with the video.

Yeah, it's like, you need No, I don't think you maybe.

I don't know if you can get that.

Oh, I got it.

I think it's over.

Oh, it's a little bit more than that.

You can go on the other thing.

Oh, you can have it.

Oh, I'll see you in here.

Okay.

Oh, yeah.

No.

Now I just think that's what I'm saying.

This one is the best time.

I'm going to go to the only two.

What I'm doing is that you probably get one person.

Yeah, I don't know.

I wouldn't want to do it.

I'm almost all the whole thing.

Yeah.

We can try to go on.

I don't think so.

I don't think we can do it.

Oh, we's a part of the thing.

Yeah, yeah.

And I'm going to do it.

I'm going to do it.

You can do it on the video.

I think it's easy to do.

Well, you know what I mean?

Well, you can see that it's not a lot of those.

Oh, you can do it.

What do you do with the people that are like, you maybe, you're going to have to do that?

Yeah.

Well, I don't know what I'm going to do.

I don't know.

How are you going to call it?

Oh, we call it that.

Oh, come on.

Well, I mean, I'm not gonna let them like I I like that.

It works.

Yeah.

I don't know.

Oh, we're gonna have to worry about it.

Oh my god.

Oh, it's definitely a bigger and I need to have a lot of things you can do.

Oh, probably.

Oh, uh, I'm gonna use the market.

I don't know where I can do that.

Oh my god, I think that's a good thing.

I have to do the other one.

You know what I'm saying?

I think we're all right.

I don't think that's what I think about it.

Oh my god.

Oh, yeah.

I think all the time, I'm gonna go on.

...

H All right, we're not all Mais No.