I see that your uh speech I'm ready.

Okay, good evening, everyone.

We're gonna start the meeting, please.

Please rise for the flag salute.

Robert, would you want to do the flag salute, please?

United States of America.

And do you rebuild which stance?

Under God, indivisible liberty and justice for all.

Thank you.

Where's my papers?

This meeting is convened in accordance with the provisions of the Open Public Meetings Act of New Jersey.

Let the official minutes reflect that adequate notice of this meeting has been provided by publishing a notice in the Asbury Park Press, the Star Ledger, and the press of Atlantic City on Tuesday, December 23rd, 2025, and thereafter posting same on the town hall bulletin board for such notices and filing same with the township clerk.

This meeting has also been posted on the township's web page.

Um I'm not sure which one you read, but I have the correct open public meetings act statement.

If you okay, all right, so I guess I have to read it again.

Yeah, just to get the dates right.

Okay, okay.

This meeting is convened in accordance with the provisions of the open public meetings act of New Jersey.

Let the official minutes reflect that adequate notice of this meeting has been provided by publishing on notice in the Asbury Park Press at the Star Ledger on Wednesday, January 7th, 2026, and thereafter posting the same on the town hall Bolton Board for such notices and filing same with the township clerk pursuant to a resolution adopted by the township council on Thursday, January first, 2026.

The meeting dates have also been posted on the township web page.

Okay, Councilman Bradley here, Councilman Pincini.

Here council vice president Iverson here, Council President Saccozy.

Here councilman Coleman.

Here councilman Aber.

Here councilwoman O'Toole.

Item number five is the minutes from the January 1st, 2026 reorganization meeting.

I'll move it.

Second.

Motion was made by Councilman Coleman, seconded by Council Vice President Nivison.

Councilman Coleman.

Yes.

Council Vice President Iveson?

Yes.

Councilman Bradley.

Yes.

Councilman Bianchini.

Yes.

Council President Sackozi.

Yes.

Councilman Aber?

Yes.

Councilwoman O'Toole.

Okay.

Before I begin, I just want to read something to everyone.

God grant us the serenity to accept the things we cannot change.

Direct us and give us courage to change the things we can.

And the wisdom to know the difference.

And so we have um no honoring resolutions and presentations, correct?

That's correct.

Okay.

Um like to be recognized.

Yes, please.

Uh before the meeting, I was approached by some representatives from Connor Strong in Buckaloo.

Uh Mr.

Joseph Devella de Bella.

He would like to do a presentation if he could at this time to inform us on some uh insurance matters.

And they need to leave early for another meeting.

So can we yes, by by all means?

Um let's do uh is there a second to it?

I'll second it.

Okay.

Um roll call, please.

So that was made by council vice president Nivison, seconded by Councilmember Adley to Bancini.

I'm sorry, Biancini.

Thank you for a presentation.

Um in favor?

Aye.

Aye.

Any opposed?

Hearing none.

Okay.

All right, uh sir, come forward.

And the reason why we're doing this, there's been a lot of rumors and misconceptions about the uh joint insurance fund.

Um we're here to set the records straight.

And uh after their presentation, um, counsel could ask questions, and um also the mayor can ask questions if you choose so.

And the business administrator and the public.

Thank you.

Okay, please uh state your name and spell your last name for the record, please.

Of course.

My name is Joseph De Bella, D I capital B E L L A.

My residency is 41 Lyons Court in Howells.

Okay.

Sorry.

And Mr.

De Bella, you can also take the mic out if if you're more comfortable that way.

Is that better now?

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Good evening, members of the council mayor.

My name is Joseph De Bella.

I am an executive partner with Connor Strong and Buckaloo.

I'm a resident of Howell, New Jersey, not terribly far from the great community of Tom's River.

And I appreciate you allowing us some time this evening to share some very important and relevant information with respect to insurance.

I have one of my colleagues and partner, uh Dave Grubb with me.

And between Dave and I, we're going to share some facts with you with respect to matters dealing with insurance.

As you all very well know, our firm Connor Strong and Buckaloo, and one of our affiliates, PERMA, has been doing business since 1959.

Our founder, Joseph Buckaloo, is perhaps one of the most renowned persons of decency and honor that I have ever met, one of the most esteemed residents of New Jersey, and a business owner here in Tom's River on Main Street.

Started his business in Tom's River in 1959.

Part of the reason that we are here, in addition to correcting the record, if you will, with respect to matters of insurance, is also to clear up matters about our own organization.

Did you correct that with the com troller as well?

Do you want to discuss the comment?

Are you going to discuss the comptrollers as well?

Maybe you could address that as well.

He's going to be able to do that.

About being on both sides of the bid.

Why don't you why don't you talk about that a little bit as well?

Mayor, please.

Yes, I'll stop.

But but you you didn't have this on the agenda, and they've never spoken to the administration even once.

Please.

So I think they should address that and they should address the indictment.

They should address the indictment as well.

They should address both the indictment and the com trollers' investigation while they're also giving this political speech.

What kind of insurance company comes to a council meeting like this?

It is so bizarre.

I'll yield.

I'll yield now.

Sorry, Mr.

Sarkozy.

Thank you.

I apologize.

Thank you.

Go ahead.

Go ahead, Mr.

Debella.

You can ask questions at the end.

Thank you.

First of all.

Mr.

Council President, if I may, to you and members of the governing body.

I want to be clear.

We have enormous respect for each of you and the responsibility that you have.

And I will not in any way, shape, or form get into a tit for tat that serves no practical purpose since we are here simply to talk about the facts and the empirical evidence.

And Mr.

Council President, if we're afforded the opportunity on an uninterrupted basis, we have incredibly relevant information from the township itself that will clear the air.

And I'll be delighted to stay here all evening.

I'm sure you have other business and answer any and all questions with respect to this matter.

There's two things we'd like to speak with you tonight about.

One is the commercial insurance program with the Ocean County Health Insurance Fund.

And the other has to deal with our representation, prior representation for the community for its health benefits.

When we were your insurance consultant for many, many years.

But first and foremost, I I would like to correct a few things.

We are proud taxpayers in Toms River Township.

We have many of our employees who live in this community and are very proud to be from Tom's River Township.

And I would say we have been terribly disappointed with some of the disparaging remarks and comments that had been made about our organization.

Terrible comments.

Things that just simply have no place.

Now we are in the public entity business, and we are open to be held accountable for our work and our performance.

But some of the comments and remarks that had been made have been completely inappropriate.

And this evening, using nothing but empirical evidence and nothing but facts, we will correct the record so that we can at least restore the dignity of our reputation, the dignity of our founder Joseph Buckleo, who's lived his entire life in Ocean County, who does not deserve to be disparaged in the way that he has been.

And then I'd be delighted to address all of the other things that may come up.

First, a couple of key points.

The Ocean County Joint Insurance Fund was founded in 1987 by municipalities in Ocean County to deal with what at the time was a commercial insurance crisis.

Municipalities couldn't get certain kinds of insurance coverage.

And so at the time, a number of mayors and administrators came together and put together this program.

This program solely exists for the benefits of the communities that participate in it.

When Super Storm Standy hit, the health insurance or the joint insurance fund thankfully produced immeasurable results for communities like yours and others.

It is led by the commissioners who all come from the participating communities.

It has been perhaps the most effective form of joint purchasing in the history of New Jersey.

Our firm, PERMA, it's been involved as the executive director of that firm since its founding.

And we are held to account with respect to public bids, open procurement.

Joint insurance funds are subject to Oprah.

They must meet like you do.

They must file notes and minutes.

They're accountable to the Department of Insurance, the Department of Community Affairs, all of its members.

And so we are very proud to be affiliated with the Ocean County Joint Insurance Fund.

It was for that reason that we were alarmed, as were the other members of the GIF, when information began to be perpetuated about things that may be wrong or nefarious with respect to the Ocean County GIF.

All things that we will demonstrate are untrue.

Do you handle all the I'm sorry, that's a question.

I have a question I'd like to ask.

Do you handle do you handle all GIFs?

And almost all of them, right?

Except I think up in Essex.

I think you do all of the joint insurance funds, which is somewhat unusual if it's supposed to be competitive.

But go ahead, I'm sorry, continue, please.

Continue, please.

Thank you.

My apologies to the council president.

Thank you.

You can ask all your questions at the end, please.

You're welcome.

Thank you, Mr.

Council President.

So, with respect to the commercial insurance program, I'm going to ask my colleague and partner, Dave Grubb to give a very brief presentation around the Ocean County coverage that Toms River Township has enjoyed and recently agreed to continue to participate in and speak to a comparison of this alleged other proposal that the community had received, and to merely factually point out some of the differences in the coverage so that you have a very clear understanding of the coverages you have and what the alternative may have represented.

Let me add all of the coverages and proposals are a matter of public record.

Joint insurance funds are subject to Oprah.

And so the beauty of the Open Public Records Act is that it gives us all the capacity to get access to information when maybe others may not be able to.

So Mr.

Grubb, by the way, was the former deputy insurance commissioner when Tom Cain was governor and has extensive expertise in these issues.

Mr.

Grubb.

Thank you.

Um I think everyone has a uh a copy of the handout that we put together.

Excuse me.

I'll try to speak through uh Orstons.

Um it has been suggested that there were other proposals that were significantly less expensive.

And that just simply isn't true.

Uh if you take a look at the first exhibit.

Uh if you take a look at first exhibit uh the other proposal, there were actually two other proposals.

The first of the other proposals had a lower premium of 48,755, but critically the deductibles and the copays were substantially higher.

For example, the property uh deductible, uh which in the current program is uh three thousand five hundred, that would have been a deductible of a hundred thousand dollars.

Uh the um you know the the crime policy, or I'm sorry, the uh law enforcement policy, uh which is no deductible under your current program, uh, that had a deductible under the alternative pro first alternative of ten thousand to forty thousand dollars.

If you take a look at the experience of the last few years and add up what these deductibles would have resulted in had these deductibles been replaced, that would have been an additional cost of at least 250,000.

Therefore, on a like the like basis, this proposal was 200,000 more expensive than the proposal from the joint insurance fund.

The other proposal, which uh had a premium difference of 287, 759, basically the same as the first proposal, except uh it had a $50,000 per claim deductible for general liability, auto-libility, and workers' compensation.

I asked our actuary to project what was that deductible worth based on the historical experience of Tom Server Township, and then that is his exhibit two, and the actuary estimates that the claims cost or the deductible cost of those three lines of coverage that are $50,000 deductible would range between 943,000 on the low end of the projection to 1,205,000 on the high end of the production of the project of the uh projection.

So the bottom line is that if you take a look at what the cost of the deductibles are in the second proposal, instead of a $287,000 reduction, it would have actually resulted in an increase in cost to the township of approximately $1 million.

Now consider I'm the mayor, does that mean I get to interject at this point?

No, no, because you said you said that twice that the plan saved $50,000, four forty thousand and fifty thousand.

You're incorrect.

One was four hundred thousand cheaper with a slightly higher deductible, the other was a fifty thousand dollar savings with much better deductibles that would have resulted in three hundred thousand in savings on the back end on the low end.

Listen, so you could come here and stop.

No, I'm not.

I'm not.

I'm not gonna give them a captain, a captive audience.

I'm not.

I'm not, and we all know that their firmware was under the investigation and scrutiny of the com troler, Perma and Connor Strong on both sides of the bid, and you don't like to compete, and you'll try to crush anybody anybody who stands up to you.

Well, you're not crushing me, pal.

You're not crushing me.

Excuse me.

Excuse me for one second.

Please, Joe.

Yes.

Yeah, Joe, he knows them on a first name basis.

You just got here, but you got them on a first name basis.

He just introduced himself.

Get out of here.

Listen, just my members of the council.

Come on, I I saved millions, and my taxes are flat.

Listen, can you and it's very obvious how much we saved with the health insurance, which you don't even want to talk about.

No.

No, and you could have the animal shelter people scream all you want.

Listen, so if I may listen, listen, those are the county.

The corruption that he's referring to, because he has to do it.

Yeah, talk about it.

Talk about how you wound up to the scrutiny of both the controller and the attorney general.

Let's talk about it all.

Let's talk about it all.

Good please do it.

Let him go.

Please let him go.

It's funny.

Please watch.

Please let him let them talk.

It's funny.

Let them go.

No, it's funny that you guys are in bed with an insurance company.

We'll talk about everything else.

And you can have all your people screaming yell in the back.

I'm not giving them a captive audience.

The numbers they gave were disingenuous both times.

You know that one plan was significantly less upfront, 400,000 up front, and then the deductibles were an issue.

The other plan was 50,000 less up front, and you got it all on the back end.

You can run with your actuaries all you want, but you're not going to be able to do actuary.

You got more than this.

You guys are about to how about we do what?

We did it.

How about we do what?

Please let me finish.

I'm listening.

How about we do what?

Come to a council money, Joe.

Here is what I would say.

Here is what I would say.

This is so go ahead.

I'm listening.

You guys are afraid, you're afraid that other people will switch too.

That's what you're afraid of.

You have had a monopoly, a government run monopoly for I don't know.

I'm gonna do that.

How many years did they say?

30, 40, 80s, right?

We're trying to have a business.

Please let them go.

Please.

I agree with Tom.

Let me go.

You may be here all night long.

Please.

I let me go.

I'm going to finish our presentation.

And I would give them the right numbers, Joe.

Give them the right numbers.

Don't say 40,000 savings to simply not true.

Maybe not true.

Please.

I would I would simply say two things.

Everyone.

I I feel very terrible for you all that you're not able to effectively conduct business.

Right.

I'm going to stick to the facts because I have too much respect.

My budget says it all.

I have too much.

Too much respect for you all.

So here's what we're going to do.

So we're going to switch to several things.

And mayor, I would make the following.

Why are they getting more than three minutes or eight minutes or whatever it is that everybody else gets?

No.

No.

Why is that?

The reason why is that, Dave?

The reason is because they they are in their pocket.

You tried to switch the insurance on the last year at midnight without any.

You don't let us papers.

You wouldn't let us use that.

We were costing the town up to three million dollars extra a year.

Your numbers are even more off culture than Mr.

Cabello's numbers.

This is why did I ever say the words?

What are you afraid of?

What are you doing?

What are you afraid of?

What are they afraid of?

They're afraid obviously of the state.

Who's yelling in the back?

I I would like to propose to the members of the council.

I will answer every one of your questions, and I'll pull up the chair right here.

If you give me the decency and the respect to your residence then.

We're gonna get political stunt.

It's a political stunt.

And you want to captive audience.

If you afford me the opportunity to say you've just been speaking, look this meeting 20 minutes ago.

20 minutes ago.

No, sir.

You spoke for 20 minutes straight.

Oh no.

20 minutes straight.

20 minutes straight.

Carlos, you're talking about.

Stop yelling.

Go ahead.

Go ahead.

Let's hear about it.

We went through the property and casualty coverages, and you have a report that substantiates side per side side by side what the property and casualty insurance coverages are.

We stand by that report.

There is an independent actuary that has substantiated those results.

You have all the empirical evidence, and it's very clear.

Now, one could certainly reduce their premium if they take a larger deductible.

Right?

And an entity could decide as a method of risk management to do that.

An apples to apples comparison was performed, and based on that apples to apples comparison.

Tom's River continues to have superior coverage from a coverage perspective.

And the alternatives, while they come from a very reputable joint insurance fund, are simply different.

They cost different because it's not the same coverage.

And anyone that watches a commercial vergeo or what have you understands the level of the coverage that you secure has a direct correlation to the premium.

Okay.

So what I would now like to do is switch to employee benefits that has been represented.

And I've got articles of newspapers and what have you that speak to an alleged savings of six million dollars.

When Tom Zover Township changed health insurance.

That comes directly from the township's website and from the township's budget.

This is important empirical information that substantiates that in the year that it was alleged that there were six million dollars in savings in 2024, pursuant to your own audit, and I happen to have a copy with me.

Your own audit suggested that you spent 14.8 million dollars on health benefits.

There was an allegation that there were six million dollars of savings.

Yet, pursuant to your own municipal budget, the town actually budgeted 17.8.

Now I'm no mathematician, but it's pretty clear to me.

That's not a six million dollar savings.

In fact, the township's own budget suggests that it was a 20% increase.

Not true, and a three million dollar increase in cost.

Now, if it were not true, that's more troubling.

Because it would suggest that something nefarious could have happened with your own budget.

Not true.

Furthermore, furthermore, I was afraid that that might be the case, that that's not true.

It isn't true.

So I happen to have, for the benefit of the council and the public, yet another very helpful exhibit.

I call your attention to the exhibit from your own audited financial statement, exhibit A3 from the municipality's very own website.

Do you have year over year comparison for everybody, or just you're just gonna go the year over year comparison?

Yeah, what do we say?

Interesting.

So the year over year comparison talks about the 14.8, and yet again, the amount that the township budgeted 20% more.

If someone was to be saving six million dollars, why would they budget 20% more?

Because you're required minor and you know that these are you know that it's self-insurance model.

Come on, you're not money.

Please be honest to these people, they don't know very much.

How am I gonna have an opportunity to speak?

It's been it's been thirty minutes.

This is political garbage.

It's thirty minutes of uh political hack getting up here going all alive.

You can leave it.

It's it's like ridiculous.

You could leave if you don't want to.

No, I'm not leaving.

I'm here, Mr.

I have a right under statute to participate here.

No, no, I don't know if you realize that or not.

I'm the mayor.

And even if you have Dana Tremolin yelling in the back of the room like that, and her dad's screaming, I still have the right to speak.

And and he does not have a right to have 30 minutes of the meeting.

Okay, and we'll be here all night then.

And we'll be here all night.

Good.

Thank you.

Okay.

Okay.

So if I maybe notice he's not telling you year over year.

This is saying what we budgeted for.

This information, yeah.

Unfortunately, we saved a ton of money and the taxes provide as a result.

Of course, thank you, sir.

The 2025 audited results are obviously not yet available.

Right.

But I would argue that.

Because there's a huge savings.

I won't show that.

That I think is going to put some people in a very uncomfortable position.

And I want the council to really understand what I'm about to say, and hopefully I can get it out.

There's an interesting law in New Jersey called Chapter 78.

It requires your township employees to have money taken out of their paycheck that goes towards paying their health care premium.

And so here's an interesting piece of information.

Imagine you work here, you're police officer, DPW, hardworking middle class Thomas River person.

You pay a lot for your health care, right?

And you read in the newspaper that we saved six million dollars, and you pay a percentage of the premium.

So therefore, if I'm a township employee, I'm coming at the next meeting and saying, how come the savings wasn't shared with me pursuant to New Jersey law and pursuant to my collective bargaining agreement?

How come the employees didn't get a reduction in their health care premium if there were six million dollars in savings?

Notice how I'm not being interrupted anymore.

Okay?

You're the fact that I'll address it in a few minutes.

The fact of the matter is that's an important point for you all to understand, and it further substantiates the very empirical evidence that we have here, which again shows exhibit B from the township's website.

This is your municipal budget and how much you put in the budget on a year-over-year basis.

And so, in our view, in our view, we think it's important to make sure that these facts are well known.

But my broker is not here to dispute any of your alleged facts, because you you you have a captive audience here.

Which is what you wanted.

You didn't talk about how the year we left our our budget, our premiums went down by two million and the HIF went up by five percent.

You didn't talk about how the year after that we we went down another one point four million and the HIF went up seventeen and a half percent.

So if you do the math, we have we've saved well over six, more like seven million dollars.

But again, you you're not showing any year-over-year comparison.

You're bouncing around, you sound beautiful, you sound really polished.

I mean, that's why uh you did so well in politics and insurance.

But you're not giving any year-over year comparisons with our budget, Mr.

Count members of the council, if I may.

As I say before, I have to do that.

Your firm has a credibility issue, not only with me, with the com trauma, with the attorney general, and you you're coming here with this captive audience.

You didn't say, hey, where's the current broker to come down here and give a presentation?

And you want a captive audience.

That's what that really comes down to.

And you're moving furniture.

I I I do not want to interrupt you, Mayor, because I have too much respect for the office.

So we don't have any respect for the office.

So you would have called here.

You would have called here.

We would have left our pre-white your political monopoly.

So I'll I'll finish our presentation.

It's interesting about why don't you address the two million, the 1.4 million, the 5% increase at the HIF and the 17 and a half percent increase the following year at the HIF.

So our premiums went down two million the first year, 1.4 the second, it's in our budget.

The mayor and council, I'm just gonna keep talking.

So the exhibit here is because you don't want to address the actual budgeting numbers.

You want to put up a bunch of slides and pretend like uh go ahead, continue with your fighters.

Go ahead.

Thank you.

Finish up.

I appreciate it.

Finish up.

Okay.

So let's just go back to the numbers which come directly from the township's budget.

Every single one of these exhibits is not some to quote the mayor Fou Gazi number.

These happen to be exhibits that come directly from the municipal budget, which is available online.

And I can tell you, you can't do that.

Do they include the increases at the HIF each year?

Do they show the HIF numbers for each year?

They don't, Mr.

Mr.

They include over they don't show the HIF numbers.

The HIF went up 17 and a half percent last year.

The year before that, I believe it went up five or more.

Maybe it was a good one.

So here are the here are the increases.

And we've been flat for two years in a row on a change.

What are you doing?

In 2020, no wonder the car the town.

Tell them how you point to the city.

Tell them how the one business puts out the bid and written and how the other business fills the bid, but they're the same people like yourself.

Don't you work for College Strong and Perma?

Don't you work for both?

Aren't you really the same business?

And should the same business be on both sides of a bid?

Why don't you address that part?

I hope so too.

I hope the commerce I would be willing for chance.

I don't have one, but you want me to shut up.

No, we were not able to have a conversation.

We're not.

We're not.

I gotta give you now we're at 31 minutes.

We now have the 2000 and 31 minutes.

Carlos, you don't pay taxes if you curse call a school.

We have taxes in this town.

You don't even have a job.

We have the 2021 budget.

The 2022 budget.

We have your 2023 budget, and we have your 2024 and 2025.

For members of the council, this includes the health care expenses for the township's health benefits budget.

I assure you, this comes directly from your budget.

You can see in 2020 what the number was.

Your health benefits increase was a reduction in 2021.

It was a 16 percent reduction.

Yeah.

And you're thousands of but the township was in the health insurance fund in those years.

This is just incorrect information.

The township left the Central New Jersey Health Insurance Fund in Cowland at the end of 2024.

We were your insurance broker until that time.

The empirical evidence is is without question.

It is clear.

We were your insurance consultant during this period of time.

It was at the end of 2024, pursuant to law, we were replaced.

That's certainly the township's prerogative.

You know, we're all entitled to have our own opinion, but we're not entitled to have our own facts.

This information comes directly from your budget.

We've provided source information.

How much did it go down the second year?

You said the first year 1.2 million.

We were still involved with the municipality in 2024, and it was a 3% increase in health care.

A 3% increase in health care in this economy in this market is is not terribly significant.

In 2025, the township was on its own.

You have every right to do that.

I applaud the mayor for trying to find savings.

I'm not here to get into an argument with your mayor.

We are here simply to provide factual information so that you have all of the empirical evidence and so that you know what is going on.

In 2025, it was a 17.8 million dollar line item included in your operating budget that was a 20 percent increase over prior.

And the prior comes from your audit.

We're not making up these numbers.

Now, if I may, at the time we began to read articles about this six million dollar savings, I wrote a letter to the mayor.

You all have a copy.

I have copies up here for anyone who would like it.

In September of 2025, and we very politely and very collegially simply requested a time to meet to review these numbers.

How could there be a six million dollar savings?

And quite frankly, myself, my fellow employees, we were not happy that there were representations in the press that perhaps we had done something wrong.

We had not fulfilled our fiduciary responsibility.

And so I wrote the mayor on September 25th, never got a response.

I then called Town Hall on multiple occasions and asked for an opportunity to come and meet with the mayor and anyone from the administration to review these facts.

When did you call and who did you speak with?

Because it wasn't with me, and I'm the business administrator.

I didn't I didn't call for the business administrator.

I called the office of the mayor and left a phone message.

That's my case.

I don't know who this person is.

Whoever answered the telephone.

We did make phone calls, I can assure you.

You reached out.

And we we sent this letter, and we specifically asked.

The letter was sent via email, and it was also sent via regular mail.

In effect, pleading for an opportunity to clear the record because the empirical evidence, as we've seen here tonight, speaks for itself.

And so we were disappointed we did not get that opportunity.

We decided to let the matter go because it wasn't worth getting into very much what we're dealing with this evening.

It was not worth our firm's name and credibility and reputation.

However, however, these attacks persisted.

These attacks persisted.

Comments in the newspaper about our organization being under investigation.

It is disparaging comments about our founder and chairman, Joseph Buckleoo, insider dealings, all sorts of completely unsubstantiated facts.

And so we are here tonight not to get into any sort of a quagmire with respect to anything else that may be going on on this matter.

We are here because our firm's reputation and credibility is at stake, and we felt it was important that with respect and with a completely professional presentation that we share with you nothing more than the facts.

If anyone has an issue or disagreement with us, they're entitled to do so.

But that does not entitle them to disparage our firm, to disparage our reputation, and to make comments in the newspaper that are completely unwarranted and completely unfounded.

And so I greatly appreciate the members of the council for affording us the opportunity to present the facts.

There were several other comments that were made about people we're affiliated with or about conflicts of interest.

Let me address those head on.

It's a piece of the law.

And we have been going back and forth with the Office of State Comptroller on how to ensure that the RFPs that are issued for health insurance and PBMs and so forth are done pursuant to their findings and obligations.

We have a disagreement with the Office of State Comptroller.

But here's what's important.

Here's what's important.

The members of those groups, municipalities, they filed a lawsuit against the OSC, not Connor Strong, not PERMA, people just like yourselves who are commissioners and participate because they vehemently disagree with the findings of the Office of State Comptroller.

And here's the other interesting thing.

In this country, there is a legal foundation that you are innocent until proven guilty.

And I don't appreciate when someone looks at certain information and then dramatizes it to reach a conclusion before one has been properly represented.

That's just wrong.

It's un-American and it's unfair.

And it's unfair to Connor Strong and Buckaloo and our affiliate company, PERMA, who are here tonight, not because we're afraid, who are here tonight to clear the record and to be accountable to each and every one of you, whether you agree with us or not, to be accountable to each of you and answer your questions in an open public forum.

And so what I would say, and am greatly appreciative of your time, is that it was important you understand the facts.

The facts are the commercial insurance program was not apples to apples.

And based on your own information from your audited financial materials, there was no six million dollar savings.

And in fact, the town's health care costs have gone up by three million dollars.

And I do feel very badly that you're probably gonna have a line of township employees here pretty soon who are gonna say, how come my chapter 78 contributions didn't go down if there was a savings?

We appreciate the opportunity to make this presentation to you.

We appreciate your time and consideration, and I would be delighted to answer any of the council's questions.

Oh, do I get one question?

Can you tell me uh did the HIF go up 17 and a half percent last year?

Mayor, and if it went up 17 and a half percent, what is 17 and a half percent of 20 million dollars?

You look like a pretty sharp guy with math.

What's 17 and a half percent of 20 million dollars?

Just for a rough ballpark figure for me.

Can you do that?

Would you like me to answer the question?

Yes, I really do.

If if I may, I'm gonna direct everything through you as the chair.

Is that is that the one answer the question, right?

Because 17 and a half percent of three of 20 million dollars is you asked the question Oh, is he gonna answer it?

I thought he was going through the chair.

I thought you were gonna have to answer that.

Go ahead.

So, members of the council, the Central Jersey Health Insurance Fund, first and foremost, the township left it.

You were not a part of it for 2000.

And I do not have unless 17 and a half percent.

Whatever the percentages are.

That's over three million dollars just that one year.

The prior year, and when I was seven percent, which was another one point four million.

And mine has gone down.

So you you again, you're very disingenuous with your numbers.

You can't present.

But most people know that I'm pretty prepared.

Mr.

Mayor, I have to.

I am delighted to demand.

You won't answer the question.

You said you'd answer every question.

You answer that question.

What is 79% of 20 million dollars?

Answer the question.

I feel like I'm on the people's court.

You won't answer it.

You are so slick.

The increase of essential is the increase for the Central New Jersey health insurance fund.

What was it?

I do not have the precise increase.

But here's the reason.

So, Mr.

Council President, here is the reason why.

Well, you're a scam artist, Joe.

Do you want to do that?

See, now these are disparaging comments.

So if I may, Mr.

Council, can you go on to the agenda, Mr.

Repos?

No.

He won't answer the questions.

He said he'd answer every question.

Is each entity would get a different increase.

That was 17 and a half off the I send you the email.

I send you the email on the seven percent of the year before that.

It's not a correct entity.

You're answering the question very directly.

You don't know.

There are an estimate of 30 groups that are in the Central New Jersey Health Insurance Fund.

Scam Mark.

Based on their underwriting position, the increases would be different.

There is no precise actuarial or underwriting formula to determine that Tom's River would have got a 17% increase because Tom's River left.

You can't count as a savings something that didn't happen to you.

I had a I have a member on the board, sir.

He was on the board in the hour.

He knows what it went up.

It went up 7%.

That's three million bucks or three and a half million.

The year before that, it went up seven or eight percent.

So I uh why don't we go on to your next question, Mayor?

Well, that was that was it.

You won't answer that.

Um so you won't tell me what the increases are at the HIF, you claim you don't know.

Uh did I save one point four million in my in my first year with the uh new health insurance?

You gave it a number, but you didn't give a real number.

If I may, Mr.

You gave a percentage number.

And then how about the following year when my budgeted 1.4 million less?

One question at a time.

Let me answer.

So according to the town's financial audit, your costs that you budgeted for went up by three million dollars.

Which we already've already proven that point based on your own audited financial statements because here again, and it's interesting, as I say before, someone may be entitled to their own opinion, but they're not entitled to this is all public records.

It is, it's all in our budget every single year is in our budget.

Here's anybody in the public can pull the budget, here's your 1.4 million the first year.

Uh then it went down again.

And both times it went down, they're gonna wrap it up in less than five minutes.

Got it, Mr.

Council.

Thank God, because it's already 45 minutes.

All right, 45 minutes.

All right, and who have all these people here from the animal shelter waiting to hear you talk about?

Um I don't know, maybe I did take up 10 out of the 45.

Maybe I did.

All right.

Okay, please.

I'd be happy to answer any of your other questions.

This is exactly why they did the animal shelter.

Council members have questions.

I have a few questions for you.

Um there's been a lot of stuff that I've been reading in the paper as well.

So I'm glad that you actually might that you actually did come tonight.

The first question I wanted to ask you when they were going out to get bids from other GIFs, were you invited to give your bid as well?

Like if they raise the deductibles and so forth and so on.

No, sir, Mr.

Councilman.

Uh at no time that the administration uh reach out and say we would like to review alternatives with you and so forth.

Uh all of the information on the Ocean County Joint Insurance Fund is publicly available.

It's talked about at all of the Ocean County GIF meetings.

At no time were we invited by the administration to come in and have a thorough discussion with respect to changes in risk management, in coverage, in policy, or otherwise.

We begin to hear about these changes in shopping and savings when we write about it in the newspaper.

So do you want to add anything to that or is that coverage?

So in other words, if I have four automobiles on my auto insurance and I turned around and wanted to turn and uh get a lower premium, all I do is change my deductible from 250 to 1500 or 2,000, and it's definitely going to be a cost savings, correct?

That's correct, sir.

But you're not going to get the same kind of protection that I'd have under the one that you actually presented.

Yeah, I'll give you an example, Councilman.

So one of the most significant issues is the current general liability insurance with the Ocean County GIF.

Very significant.

Current, the general liability insurance.

You have no deductible today.

Under the alternative program.

You said zero today.

Zero today.

No.

There is no deductible at all.

So you're covered in full.

You have first dollar coverage.

Now under the alternate proposal, there would have been a $50,000 deductible per each claim.

That's only one of the proposals.

You need to be honest and give them all the information.

I have to clear the record.

Um I've been hearing a lot of stuff about um Mr.

Gilmore and Mr.

Norcross being employed through your firm.

Um Dave, we were just downstairs, and didn't the mayor come into our office and say that you know that these guys were working for Gilmore and I I just want to clear the record here because I don't know who's affiliated with who.

I'm happy to.

Thank you for the question, Councilman.

George Gilmore is not an employee of Connor Strong.

We don't pay Mr.

Gilmore.

I understand he's a prominent local official from a uh municipal perspective from a partisan point of view.

But he is not in any way affiliated with Connor Strong or PERMA.

I happen to know he's a prominent person in Tom's River and has been for a number of years in Ocean County, but he is not in any way affiliated with our organization.

Let me address my boss.

Who has been terribly disparaged by certain individuals in the newspaper?

People may disagree with him politically or otherwise.

Mr.

Norcross was indicted, but what is often not reported is that the case was dismissed.

And we live in America.

You're entitled to a hearing, you're entitled to a trial.

That happened, and the case was dismissed.

The Attorney General has appealed the case, and they're going through the legal proceedings now.

But again, I I can't help myself but say this is Tom's River.

This is America.

You're innocent until you're proven guilty.

And when the charges have been dropped and you've been cleared, and people still disparage you, it's unfortunate and it's unwarranted.

And I'm not here to get into anything from a political perspective.

I'm a business person and we want to share with you insurance facts.

So I have some more questions.

But it does get into the sense that there's something political when people raise these names for those nefarious purposes.

So the GIF was actually established in 1987.

Yes, sir.

So I believe under your presentation that Tom Trevor has been in this GIF, Ocean County GIF, since its original.

Never shopped even once.

No, since the beginning.

Never shopped once.

Not even one time.

Imagine if you never shopped your car insurance.

Oh my gosh.

So the imagine that if you never shopped your car insurance.

So we're talking about a GIF.

The GIF is nothing more than another option as a shared service agreement where you get all these municipalities and government entities together to have people oversight so we get the best product for the cheapest cost for the taxpayer.

Right or wrong.

That is exactly what I'm saying.

Without shopping, how do you get the best price?

I want to make sure that we're perfectly clear.

This is nothing more than a shared service with all of our local municipalities around here.

That we're all pulled together as one big fish and a tank, and that we're all getting the best the best product, the best rates for our residents.

Plain and simple.

Plain and simple.

And I would say this, Councilman.

I don't I can tell you where I was in 1987.

But I certainly could not attest, and I would be stunned than anyone could that from 1987 to now this was never shopped once.

That's an awfully outrageous statement to be made.

The Ocean County Joint Insurance Fund is accountable to the member entities, which are you.

Open public meetings, subject to Oprah.

It is run by the member entities, not an insurance carrier.

It is a not-for-profit organization.

Let me explain what that means.

If the joint insurance fund collects more premium than it needs, it gives the money back to the entities.

You get a dividend.

So there is no possible way that there is a better form of insurance, right?

The perma fee doesn't come back, the million whatever it is, that doesn't come back.

Let me directly answer this.

As a essentially it's a purchasing group, the joint insurance fund collectively goes out and bids all the services and the excess insurance and everything collectively for its members.

So in fact, every year or every three years, depending upon the particular contract, all these contracts go out to bid.

Uh and um, you know, anybody uh can bid on these contracts, even perma's contract goes out to bid.

Uh and the final analysis, it is a purchasing group which is controlled by the representatives of its members.

So for example, if the and hopefully they won't do this, but if the the commissioners or the joint insurance fund decide they want somebody else as executive director, they can knock us out in 90 days.

That would never happen.

Okay, you don't have to be.

You guys have every single one of them.

How would that ever happen?

Come on, let me finish my point.

You have almost every GIF in every HIF in the entire state.

Don't pretend that it's competitive.

Just be honest and own it.

It's a monopoly.

You have it on both ends.

Everybody that College Stroll represents winds up in the same pools, and Perma winds up there too.

Listen, just be honest.

I have to own I have to say that actually the New Jersey would not let this for you to be in a GIF if it was going to be where it can be actually embezzled or taken over by other entities.

I can tell you that right now.

It's it's they're promoting it so that we get the cheapest price for the residents.

That's the bottom line.

Yeah, it's one of the reasons why we are as uh successful as we are as perma.

So if you take a look at our fees in a comparison of the total budget, and we are the low-cost operator in the state.

Our fees are the lowest of anybody who's in the business of being an executive director.

And this is something, and and the the fees for the ocean GIF are the lowest or among the two lowest in the state.

Now let me ask you this question.

Um, so when there is actually litigation, um I believe that the GIF actually helps with training employees, and also uh if there's a litigation lawsuit that they actually work with the townships as far as absolutely one of the reasons for the success of the program, and the actuaries have estimated the program has saved 4.2 billion dollars since inception.

One of the reasons for that is over half of that is because of the reduction of the accident rate because of all the emphasis on safety.

I started my career in Central as a safety engineer, and this is you know, and this is one of the things that I'm proud of.

When I took over the program in 1990, the accident rate was 5.73 lost-time accidents for 100 employees per year, which is that point was exactly the national and the uh state average for municipal government.

We're now running at a frequency of 1.8.

Wow, or almost a 70 percent reduction.

The reason the real reason for the success of the program, and the reason why it has become really the model for the state, is because of all of our emphasis on risk control.

The thing that we're proudest of is all of the literally thousands of employees that did not suffer disabling injuries that would have had disabling industries injuries under the old accident.

And you guys actually all take care of all the litigation and everything as far as that.

So it would be hard for me to sit here and quantify how much the actual savings would be because it would be lies.

We don't know what it would be if you didn't have it.

As I say, we asked our actuary to do a projection on that.

And the projection from the actuary is 4.2 billion dollars since inception.

Okay, I'd I'd like to ask, I apologize in advance to the audience, but I'd like to ask Roderick a question.

Perfect.

Did Fairview Insurance?

This is a company that he switched to have yeah, have any uh contributions to your campaigns, or did they get you your job up in wherever you got your job?

Let me uh Tom Fairview Insurance uh contributed to your campaign.

So I'm not right, but uh I um they didn't know.

I'm asking I think he's talking about a GIF, and we were going from one GIF who into another GIF.

They're a broker to your campaign.

Whoever you switch to, no, I just told no, I just told you they contribute to your campaign.

Oh, so they didn't contribute to yours.

I don't believe so, no.

Oh, you don't believe so?

No, but I know they gave you 100%.

I didn't have a campaign.

You did.

You did.

Okay.

But you took my name, put it on the side.

But I'm here, thank God.

I think I want to be very clear.

You're talking about a broker, and you're not talking about the GIF.

Neither GIF.

Let's go to the audience.

Let me just have one last question.

Okay.

So one thing that I've been reading, and and sorry, Dave.

No, that it seems contradicting, but we were in a GIF with Ocean County GIF since 1987.

Yes, sir.

I've been reading lately that Mo Hill hired you as the GIF.

That's not true.

We were in the GIF way before Mo Hill became on board because every time I turn around, Mo Hill is getting blamed for something.

It was well before he just maintained the status quo that was there, correct?

You are correct, so I just got to go back for Mo Hill.

They wouldn't be over.

So thank you for your consideration for the council.

Thank you.

I just have a statement to make.

Mary, you have any more questions?

Do I have any more questions?

No.

Um you have your people in the audience yelling out.

So I guess uh they're your people too.

No, no, they're definitely your people.

You bring them here every meeting.

All right, sorry.

You do Tom.

So everyone, so how we got here was now I have one question.

Can we bring in our broker at the next meeting?

Absolutely.

Yes.

Okay, perfect.

I'm gonna bring in our broker.

Of course.

You're gonna let him talk.

Yes.

Perfect.

Okay, excellent.

Are you are are you okay with that?

You guys over there?

You you're fine with that?

Yeah.

Okay.

So the reason lost for words.

I look forward to it.

I okay.

This meeting has been entertaining.

I can't wait to come back.

Listen, one thing you should say would have happened.

The proposal he just put to you right now, I wish we did that six months ago.

It would have been out in the public.

You wouldn't have been here six months ago.

You just got sworn in.

That's okay.

I still I still listen to the meetings.

All right, so how we got here was it was an urgency to switch the insurance, the insurance.

No, no, no.

Maybe Mr.

Debello can can you please let them know that our insurance was done.

We needed insurance by the first.

Is that not correct?

Is that undisputed?

Can I answer the question?

Yeah, yeah.

Certainly.

So the Ocean County Joint Insurance Fund operates in a way where it is often common that a public entity won't reorganize on January 1st and wouldn't have the ability to renew on January 1st.

A letter was actually sent to Thomas River Township meeting that you had an adequate amount of time to review.

This is very commonplace after the meeting.

The township's insurance was not going to be canceled.

It was not going to be terminated.

It was going to be renewed and rolled over automatically.

You did send that letter after my emergency meeting.

So let's be completely honest.

The letter came after our emergency meeting.

You did send that letter, and we did appreciate it.

And I'm glad that some of my letters were received.

All of your letters are received.

So just for the just can you reiterate that, please?

Our insurance would have.

When you guys, when we scheduled that meeting, the insurance was going to expire.

He then sent the letter to us a few days later.

Okay.

And then I never tried to schedule another meeting.

Your insurance was not going to expire.

It was not going to expire.

You sent us a letter after.

We had no information.

No comparisons.

I have here.

Dozens of text messages to you that go on answered.

Nothing.

Telling you to come in to talk about the insurance.

No, it's right here for the press.

Right here for the press when we say, hey, Dave, we gotta talk about insurance.

Can you come in?

You guys would not come in or answer a text message.

Those text messages even went to the people that were swearing in.

All right.

And emails?

So you do, all right.

So you agree.

Is there anyone in the public that would like to comment on the lady?

Okay.

Yeah.

Glad you know my name.

Glad I remember who I am.

All right.

Standards for Molan Messenger Street, Tom's River.

Do you have questions or a statement?

I want to ask uh how much what the percentage is that the mayor pays towards his health benefits while the township employees are paying nearly 30%.

He's paying 1.5.

He changed that ordinance.

That's on him.

He's stealing from the town.

Okay.

Thank you.

I I did notice that my two years ago that uh my health insurance payment did go down and by like $18.

And I was wondering where that came up from.

And I mentioned it a couple times two years ago.

Like I never I I didn't know how that happened or why.

And and it's and I still don't.

Okay.

Anyone else, please?

Come forward, uh, state your first name, spell your last if we have to.

On the renewal for the insurance that was due to expire at the end of the year.

Okay, when do those when does that pricing come in?

When is when is you all that information usually provided?

The joint insurance fund adopts its or introduces its budget in October and uh adopts the budget in November, and at that point, uh actually in advance of the uh of the meeting where it's adopted, the figures go out to all the towns.

It's it's a regular budgetary process, pretty late.

Which proceeds uh according to the uh public contracts law.

So there's generally communities have six to seven weeks in advance of the year where they receive their assessments.

So you get just a short window of time to shop.

Okay.

You do just be it's okay.

You know it's coming up in October.

You can start in the spring.

You get like it's a real short window to go.

But can I ask wait?

When did you send our data?

When did you send our data to the broker to assess when did you send our data to our broker to evaluate and shop?

What date did they receive that data?

I have no idea.

We have no idea because it was like super late.

It was after November.

So you don't get a whole lot of time to shop.

This is not very competitive, and we need more competition in the marketplace.

Are you a capitalist?

I know I am.

I love competition.

Okay, I love competition.

He has another question, please.

Yeah, we won't answer the we won't answer the tough ones.

I I would like to answer the the tough one.

So, as a matter of public record, the Ocean County Joint Insurance Fund has all of its meetings in public at the end at the introduction of the budget.

When did you send that data to the to our broker so that we could shop?

What date did you send our data to the broker?

It was well off in November.

You had no time.

We had levels, no time to shop to, and we still found a better price.

You held it up to the last possible second because you manipulate the entire marketplace.

It is a sin.

Mayor, we need competition in insurance in New Jersey.

Anyone who disagrees with me, well, oh, okay.

I don't think so.

I think most people recognize that insurance companies.

What are you trying to hide, Dave?

Stop knocking all bang that.

Yeah, okay.

Yeah, he's going to listen.

When did you give our data to the broker?

Oh, the data is made available to every single human being in the state of New Jersey on the date that the budget is adopted.

No one has to send anything to the broker because all of the information was paid for.

He asked for what I asked for.

You didn't give it to them.

So then you give it to them.

Next fall.

Yeah, that's quite next question.

Hurry up, bang that gavel.

Next question.

So my next question was actually for you, Mayor.

So on December 10th, we had a meeting.

Okay, council meeting.

Why wasn't this addressed on December 10th?

We didn't have the numbers yet.

But the numbers are made publicly available.

No, no.

We did not have an insurance number.

But so the question is.

We had an opportunity to save some money.

Wait, finally, I'm sorry.

I want to apologize to you because you've been very good lately.

So ask your question.

Yeah, you have.

You've been very respectful in the back and forth.

So go ahead, ask your question again.

December 10th, it was a council meeting.

Why wasn't this brought up at December 10th?

By the way, just a comment before you go.

I was gonna answer.

Before we go there, you had full majority on council.

Right.

Why wasn't it done on December 10th?

Because we didn't have quotes yet.

And do you know why we didn't have quotes yet?

Because it took that long to get the data.

And my CFO is sitting right here.

She's got a license.

She knows exactly what happened.

Everybody knows what happens.

Don't you believe in competition?

I thought you were a capitalist.

I I believe in competition.

So do you think it's fair?

Every year with all my insurance because I have a business.

Okay.

But I know when stop.

Just let's let him stop.

I apologize for that comment from now.

Okay, I appreciate it.

Go ahead.

But we and I know when the bids come out, and I go get them.

Okay, if I don't have them, because you have a certain number of periods to buy that insurance.

We know how to do it.

There you go.

So Mike, it goes back to the fact I think if you're concerned about what the costs were, I would say that the due diligence should have been done.

It wasn't your business.

We couldn't get the data.

I just told you that.

He won't give you the date.

He says it's available when the budget comes out.

Okay.

So I don't think you understand.

It's our claim, it's all of our claims data.

All of our claims data.

The question is on the health insurance.

Somebody has to underwrite the policy.

You know how you're going to say you need all the data.

This is a huge town, 136 million dollar budget, 1335.

Used to be 146.

A lot of assets.

Some we need that data to shop, and we didn't have it.

My other question was on the health insurance in 2024.

When were you?

Oh, my question was when were you notified that they were leaving the health insurance?

Sure.

That was the only question.

Please.

We were motive.

You notified that we may leave.

Go ahead.

The Central New Jersey Health Insurance Fund was notified in the spring that the township intended to leave later that year.

So that's when we were we were notion.

We intended to shop.

We intended to shop.

Central Jersey Health Insurance Fund received notice that the towns are Toms River Township was going to be leaving the Central Jersey joint insurance.

Oh, he was when was this again?

That was in the spring of 2024.

He's talking about you're talking about health.

I think the question was about the GIF.

No, it it was not.

No.

Oh, it was about health.

It was about health insurance.

It was about health.

Okay.

Thank you, sir.

All right.

Thank you.

Anyone else?

Oh.

Okay.

State your first and last name for the record, please.

This who were for anything.

No.

No, not just for the just for this.

Just for the GIF.

Just for the insurance.

Okay.

Okay.

I'll let you know when.

But I want to let you know the reason our lower.

Okay.

Our insurance and everything.

Okay.

We don't have enough service.

Okay.

We don't have the services we used to have.

Before the talk about it later.

Okay, thank you.

All right.

Is there anyone else in the audience?

Any councilmen?

No?

Okay.

So they're all here for the animal shelter.

Pardon?

The majority of these people are here for about the animal shelter.

Correct.

Raise your hand if you're here for the shelter.

All right.

So we're going to close this.

It's a large number of people here for the shelter.

Yes.

We're going to close this part of the meeting right now.

Okay.

Okay.

736.

Okay.

All right.

Council president for the sake of the meeting.

Can we close public comment since the public spoke?

Can we need a motion?

Motion and a second.

I'll motion.

A second?

I'll second it.

All in favor?

Aye.

Any opposed?

Hearing none.

Okay.

Item number seven is an ordinance of the township council of the Toms River Township of Toms River Ocean County, State of New Jersey, amending and supplementing chapter 50, Section 11, subsection E of the Township Code regarding police promotion lists.

This is a final reading.

So we need a public comment for this.

Okay.

Is there anyone in the audience that would like to come up and speak on this uh number seven on the agenda?

The ordinance.

Okay.

Seeing the lady that was just up here.

Yeah, that's yeah, it yeah.

You have questions on this regards to the police department.

She said no.

Oh, something else she said.

Something else.

She's got something else.

Not going according to plan.

Okay.

All right.

Saying no public comment and need a motion to close.

Public comment.

I'll make a motion to close.

A second.

Second.

Okay.

All in favor?

Aye.

Aye.

Any opposed?

Hearing none.

Okay.

Who would entertain uh make a statement before we vote on this?

Okay.

All right.

All right.

So regarding the police ordinance.

To clarify, this ordinance is to allow the council power via resolution, which is then brought up for a vote to extend the police promotion list up to one year.

This ordinance does not allow the list to be extended without council approval.

This ordinance is being proposed to prevent an issue like the one that has currently occurred where the list expired and we had available spots, slots to promote officers into.

These tests for promotion are a time consuming task that is necessary, but when we ask our officers to study and take these tests, we should be doing everything in our power to reward their time and efforts with the possibility of promotion if slots are available.

This police force is set up just like my army unit in regard to promotions.

You have a certain number of slots available to promote into and a list that states who will be potentially promoted, of which the list goes from top to bottom.

By asking these officers to study for an exam and then not even promote anyone is a real morale killer.

We dangle the carrot in front of them and then forcefully pull it away.

The TRPD is also facing a knowledge gap with senior and experienced officers either going to another department or retiring.

These junior officers will then be learning from someone who they themselves may not know their job that well.

The system that the TRPD had worked well, had worked well.

The chief was the mentor to the captains, the captains to the lieutenants, and so on down to the newest patrolmen.

Each level of leadership was taking the time to ensure that the people below them knew their job and how to excel at it.

This ensures that everyone is learning from the best and can one day take their mentors position and pass that knowledge on to the next generation of police officers.

We have the finest police force in the country, and I want I want to ensure it stays that way.

Thank you to the brave men and women of TRPD who go out every day and make a difference.

It is well appreciated and not forgotten.

Thank you.

I will entertain a motion, please.

We need a motion.

You had one already.

Oh the public.

The public closed.

Um we need a motion.

I did not hear a motion.

I said yes.

I would entertain a motion.

Okay.

We need a second.

Yeah.

All right, thank you.

I'm sorry, Ms.

Underspeaker.

Seconded by Councilman Coleman.

Yes.

Okay.

Motion was made by Council President Sarkozy.

Seconded by Councilman Coleman.

No, I did not make the motion.

I said I would entertain from the So I was waiting for a motion.

My apologies.

Okay.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Motion.

There is second.

Motion was made by Councilwoman O'Toole.

We need a second now.

I'll second it.

Seconded by Councilman Biancini.

Councilwoman O'Toole.

Yes.

She said yes.

Thank you.

Uh Councilman Biancini.

Number seven.

You know, excuse me.

Um on the rule.

Yeah, I think she I think I think you confused her on the I was going to say yes, but she just said that she's a good question.

He's on the wrong one.

Okay.

Well, it was a long meeting.

I don't think it's funny.

I it was a long pre-meeting, and I don't think that's very funny to say to her.

All right.

So you are.

It's a woman all told change.

What do you laugh at the vote to no?

No.

So let's everybody can make a mistake.

I looked at the ordinance on a different ordinary.

I'm sorry.

You were laughing, and it's not appropriate.

So you make comments like that and you curse it out there and you say all kinds of things like that.

Please order, order there you go.

You're gonna come and yell at me and curse at me or write nasty things online.

Please not.

Everyone messed up.

This is our town.

Please get Mr.

School Ms.

I withdraw my motion, please.

There was a mistake I didn't realize.

Yeah, we heard that.

And you're that's fine.

This was my motion, my withdrawal.

Okay.

That's fine.

Just want to make it up.

And you're voting no, correct?

Correct amount of okay.

Thank you.

Okay.

Okay.

Let's for the record.

Let's start over with a motion, a second on ordinance seven, please.

Who was this second?

I seconded it.

Okay.

And the motion was yes.

Yes, I motioned.

I seconded it, yes.

Well, we need if you motioned it.

We need a second.

I I'll second it.

Oh, okay.

Okay, thank you.

I'll see if we threw it up.

Motion was made by Councilman Biancini, seconded by Councilman Bradley.

Councilman Biancini.

Yes.

Councilman Bradley.

Yes.

Council Vice President Iverson.

Yes.

Councilman Sic uh, Council President Skozi.

Yes.

Councilman Coleman.

Well, the original promotion list has expired, as mentioned.

Apparently, that is the reason some council members want the old list extended for one more year.

On the old list, there were two officers who are at the bottom of the old list who would automatically be in line for their current promotions.

My guess is that they didn't do too well on the previous officers' tests, so they ended up at the bottom of the list.

Since the old list is expired, it only seems fair that all officers of whom there seems to be 15 sergeants and who meet the requirements needed for promotion should have the opportunity to take the new test, including the officers previously mentioned, to determine who should be granted the current promotions moving to lieutenant status.

I feel confident that the community would want the best candidates to receive the promotions.

Why the extension of the old list is being promoted by some members of the council makes no sense to me unless the officers at the bottom of the old list have some kind of political connection advocacy for them.

At one of our agenda meetings, the chief made it clear that he did not support extending the old list and asked that it not be on the agenda for the reasons outlined above.

I also understand some officers who are eligible for the promotion have spoken to the chief about being denied the opportunity to test for the promotion at this time.

And it seems that the passing of this resolution would be unfair.

Therefore, I support these officers seeking fairness, and therefore my vote is no.

Councilman Aber.

No.

Councilwoman O'Toole.

Just chasing you go to a boy.

You got it mixed up.

Okay.

I I just want to expand on this.

Um it's not all true what he said.

We're on our third police chief, okay, in two years.

God bless you, sir.

Okay.

I don't know how much more time you have, but I hope it's a long time.

Okay.

Um the purpose of not renewing this list is that it will take almost a year, eight, nine, ten months to get another test out.

Not true.

Yes, it is true.

Yes, it is true.

Not true.

Okay.

So the mayor wants to delay it and not appoint anybody for another year.

And you know, he just took out eight hundred thousand dollars.

What is he talking about?

Uh in December from the police uh department budget, and we moved it over on on that.

We're almost down 19, 20 police officers in town.

20 officers there um d their shifts.

Uh uh a lot of guys aren't getting the weekends off anymore.

Saturdays and Sundays, uh, we're shorthanded.

I think on the weekends, we only have maybe 10 officers covering the whole town.

Where do you get 44 square miles?

Where do you it's it's bad?

So it there's a reason why he doesn't want the list extended.

Thank you.

Yeah, I want to make sure the other officers have an opportunity to test.

Can I also follow up that uh in fairness?

You weren't.

Uh I believe oh, excuse me.

May I maybe go ahead.

Um I believe that we spoke to the chief.

If I'm out of line, Chief, please correct me.

When we and you said he spoke to you guys recently, and he said that the test does not have to be held off for a year, it can be given in a much shorter period of time.

Chief, if I'm wrong, just say I'm wrong.

That's okay.

Is that accurate?

Can the test be given?

Unfair to put the chief on the spot.

Can you please come forward and speak into the microphone?

Hello, everybody.

Uh, we're actually talking about two separate issues here.

One is extending the list, the other is making promotions, two separate issues.

If uh if we're making promotions, we could we can make promotions.

If we're extending a list, um it's a totally separate issue.

There is a mechanism in place when a list expires, or in this case, um no one is uh expired, or when it's exhausted, there's a mechanism in place where you would uh if today I was told to promote somebody, I could promote whoever was the highest person on that list.

Whoever is for lack of a better word, uh dying number one on the list, that person could be promoted into an acting position and be paid the uh salary exactly.

In this case, uh a sergeant uh if we're if we're talking about the lieutenant's list, uh the sergeant that scored or who is sitting number one on the list that expired at the end of December, uh, he could be promoted to the position of acting lieutenant and be paid as acting lieutenant until we run a new list.

And that particular acting lieutenant would have to take the next promotional process.

Uh Chief Do you support extending the list?

Or do you support a new list?

I do not support uh extending the uh the list.

Why is that for the exact reasons that we're already discussed is fairness?

Sorry.

There are people waiting to take the next promotional exam.

They should be afforded the opportunity to take that exam.

So and they should be given that opportunity.

All right, we have a question from counseling.

I have a couple of questions.

So why do we take so long for this test to be uh retaken?

If there's only two people, first I want to understand two things.

It's in the ordinance.

Mr.

Coleman, I I I have to say that with some disparaging remarks that you made that they if the chief republic is.

I think possible.

Thank you.

We have questions.

No, no, no.

Well, if you're gonna ask the question, but if you guys are gonna get into arguments here and drag the chief, it's something that's not appropriate for him.

questions uh so why do we take so long for this test to be uh retaken if there's only two people first I want to understand two things it's in the order mr coleman i i i have to say that with some disparaging what remarks that you made that they if the chief republic on the list is back and forth actually lower than everybody else can i just ask that you put the mic down and pass on this much thank you we have questions no no no well if you're gonna ask the question but if you guys are gonna get into arguments here and and drag the chief if it's something that's not appropriate for him listen can I ask you this question ask him a question a possibility that people take tests and some people don't score as well on tests but they're very phenomenal police officers and doesn't score as good as the next person some people may not even score that or score that well and and get promoted because they have a better test result because they just happen to take better tests in the uh in reference to our promotional process just uh keep in mind if we do have a list of officers whoever scored number one all the way down to number 10 12 whatever it may be there the separation uh could be hundredths of points um it's it's not necessarily a large disparity it's not saying that the number 10 guy is is bad or the number one guy is you know it's just the way that the numbers may have test though right they pass the test yes okay that's what I would make sure once you pass the test that you're eligible for it you take so many we shouldn't wait until the list expires or near this is only an option right now this is not written it's if it's a tool if needed so I don't know why the police chief wouldn't want to sit there and promote or use this list until we get the one put out the list tomorrow but I can tell you it takes it takes months to study this is not like you take the test and it comes out next week doesn't the police officer have to take time to study for these tests or is it just something that they just walk into the office and sit down and take the test I I actually I'm an expert when it comes to test taking I've taken uh every uh every test okay where I'm at there is there is so it is it does take uh you know many many months of studying many many hours away from your family it costs money it's not as well as we can just turn around tomorrow and say I just okay we're gonna put out this test and we're gonna have it ready for it's not happening I just um I just want to say just Council President Sarkozy people don't realize how much we can't get into a situation we can't get into a situation where we are asking a department head for their opinion and arguing with the department head particularly the chief of police okay I it's a chain of command issues all kinds of things going on he gave you your opinion if you have direct question and a question and an answer that's great but it's not appropriate the chief did not come here for politics okay you asked he you guys called him out of the corner you asked they came up point taking you were the one who asked him to come up thank you I said thank you it's not fair to to put chief on the spot yep well he gave you his opinion okay thank you and he is the chief and I would like to correct we didn't have two we haven't had three chiefs he's chief Mitch Little was chief there was an acting person in between not a chief the person was acting yeah he was acting exactly you referred to him as chief sundack he's acting he was acting he's acting chief he's acting and he and he and he went out he's not he's not he hasn't been with us be chief because he wasn't a captain for one year correct I can't tell you the reason he's on leave but it those are not reasons that you'd be on leave and he's still on leave so I would also just ask that you be cognizant of some of these things okay as a present so you okay you move on please on the agenda thank you moving on to item eight is the consent agenda all matters listed under the item consent agenda will be enacted by one motion in the form listed below there will be no separate discussion of these items if discussion is desired on any item that does that that item will be discussed considered separately I'd like further discussion on e please any other council members have uh a d on d I like to um have discussion on D.

Okay on D I'd like uh F I J and K.

Okay.

Okay.

I would like K, please okay put them on the list.

If every if everyone's ready I'm gonna read what's going to be pulled so uh D E F I J and K.

I didn't miss anything H.

H as well yeah the poll you guys also have to remember the public right so you have to remember the public too do they he knows that I didn't no you got people concerned who want to speak so he's he's I'm I'm just telling I'm just interjecting I'm glad you know that I'm just interjecting to make sure that people's rights are protected.

Oh yeah uh even if even even though your crew in the back laughs they have a right okay and there are other people here besides your friends who have questions so okay one more time D E F G H I J and K.

Not Mr Galante I did not ask for age no H.

No H.

All right.

Okay.

So now, Council President, we would need a no uh motion to approve the balance of the consent agenda.

No, we we have to have the public.

Okay.

Okay.

Um what would you like heard, sir?

F and Q.

F and Q.

F's already been there.

There is no Q, Mr.

Galante.

There is no Q.

I'm gonna say Q.

I like F and G's already been noted.

Yeah, F and G's already.

That's fine.

All right.

They've been noted.

Anyone else?

That's already been noted.

Okay, that's been noted also.

Thank you.

All right.

Okay.

Okay.

Comment on that.

Okay.

Does anyone uh want to come up and comment on any of these?

You gotta do one at a time if they're separate.

Yeah, yeah.

You gotta do one at a time if they're separate.

I'm just telling you how you gotta do a bunch of my correct clerk.

Yes, let's let's approve the balance of the consent agenda first.

Yeah.

Make a motion to approve the balance.

I'll second.

Okay.

So this is a motion to approve the consent, the balance of the consent agenda, minus items D, E, F, G, I, J, and K.

And I believe the motion was made by Councilman Coleman.

Yes.

And seconded by I'll second it.

Thank you.

Councilman Biancini.

Councilman Coleman?

Yes.

Councilman Biancini?

Yes.

Councilman Bradley?

Yes.

Uh Council Vice President Iveson?

Yes.

Council President Sarkozy?

Yes.

Councilman Aber?

Yes.

Councilwoman O'Toole?

Yes.

Okay.

So we'll start with item D.

Okay.

That wasn't me.

Only people for comment for D.

So if he's not coming up, he's not thinking you're not here for D.

Right?

So you go in order.

Thank you.

Yeah, no, I'm just trying to help out, Dave.

You're doing a great job, but you're new at it, right?

Thank you.

Do you?

D is uh Robert, Councilman Diancini.

So I was just I just had some concerns when they were talking about having um some payrolls in between the council meetings uh for different pay items.

Now I understand I'm not opposed.

I just like to have some clarity on there that that's gonna be paid for for like taxes or something.

It's not gonna be vendors or contractors.

If they miss, they can wait for the next two weeks, correct?

Well, there are times when vendors need to be paid, like if the utility bill comes in.

Yeah, if it's a utility company, yeah.

Right.

Yes, right.

I need to be able to disperse that.

That's fine.

I just didn't want it to be from some other vendor outside of emergency.

That's all.

I mean if it's not a common current it's for payroll.

Okay.

Um it's for memory pain.

We weren't able to give the weren't able to give the schools their money this this month, right?

They we had to give them their school their money late.

It was like eight million.

Could I ask another question of the 18 million we had to give to the school and we couldn't give it to the meeting?

Okay.

Dorothy, how did we do it when we only had one council meeting a month?

So what happens is this resolution gets passed every year.

And so we would do pay because I'm authorized to disperse the funds in between meetings, and then subsequently those bills are provided on the prepaid list so the council can approve them after they're paid.

That's how it's done.

Thank you.

That's fine.

Okay, thank you.

Yeah, can I can I also chime in?

Please go ahead.

Yeah, the I understand uh all of your desire for transparency.

It's a very noble effort in government, but this is something that has to be done, and every municipality or government entity would have to be able to have prepay, or you'd really expose uh the township to a lot of liability and lawsuits.

So it's it's not about hiding bills, it's about paying the bills that are due when they're due.

Can I ask the attorney a question as well?

Could you just clarify when and well the CFO can do this as well?

When a bill is lawfully whatever, right, from a contractor.

If don't we have Phil Stilton, don't we don't we have to pay when someone bills us and they have a contract with the town and they provide work?

If we didn't pay uh Dorothy, correct?

Don't we have to pay bills?

Yeah, I mean, I don't want to speak in absolutes, but you would yeah if you get sued, we get sued, right?

If someone provided a service to the town that we and the service was rendered and the bill invoice was sent and we refused it, we would really expose the township to all of this is basically bill vote voting on bills has always been uh and always will be somewhat of a formality because the people are due the money, and if you didn't pay them, they would go to court and get a judgment, and then you would have a problem.

And it's not just civil liability, there could be criminal liability as well.

Okay, so all of our contracts in some circumstances there could be criminal liability.

Our contracts and our vendors are all on a 30-day payment turnaround, not 60, 45.

Everybody's on a 30.

Because I do contracting work, and some of the people I work for, it's a 90-day so everybody we have across the board 30 day.

Otherwise, we're gonna get sued.

There's there's a law called the prompt payment law.

Dottie, do you want to speak into the microphone about the prompt payment law?

Well, I believe it's 60 days on the prompt law.

That's right.

I mean, we try to pay the bills as quickly as possible.

But some bills are due, like, not 30 days, it is 60 days from my understanding.

Thank you.

You're missing the point.

You have to give it's not just those kind of contracted bills.

The school system needs their tax revenue.

We owe them 18 million dollars.

They have to make payroll too, right?

They have to pay uh you know, a thousand teachers, a thousand support professionals, and you can't hold their money up for two weeks in between a meeting when you do taxes.

One meeting a month.

I'm sorry, uh I'm trying to explain it to you, Tom.

And if sometimes you just listen to me, you would understand.

Also, the business and you talk.

I know you want to argue with me.

You got your roll fired up.

Out of your mouth.

Yeah, I know.

Because uh, neither will anybody else in the entire town.

So when you got an email, you got an email from the superintendent.

Okay.

And or rather from the C the business administrator, right?

So you got it, and I sent it to you.

So I think I think you're a fan of his.

Okay.

I'm gonna do a roll call.

What do you want to do?

Roll calling.

Yeah, do a roll.

Do you okay?

Do you want to talk about that?

Can I speak on D s?

You gotta handle one item at a time.

You speak on it, you vote on it, you move on to the next item, you speak on it, you vote on it.

Are you speak for number D?

Am I allowed by D?

Yes, come forward then.

Um, I just have a suggestion.

Um perhaps it perhaps for things like a utility bill, I believe there is a 10-day turnaround.

So I can understand prompt payment would be needed for that.

Uh perhaps members of the council could sit down with the CFO and review the invoices from the past 24 months that were paid in between bill lists.

Look at the invoice, look at what date the in the date it was received and the date it was due to ascertain which expenses are legitimate and need payment prior to the next meeting, and develop a list, and those would be the expenses that would be approved.

I would also suggest though that you're still informed.

Everyone on the council, all seven members of the council be informed when the CFO is paying a bill prior to your approval.

Um I don't think that's a difficult thing for uh someone to send, send send an email to find saying saying this is due, saying this is due, and I'm paying it just so that you know it will appear on the next bill list.

Um another thing on on a similar but topic, but if you're if you're looking to have more transparency on the vendors who are being paid, and if you ever think that a vendor isn't appropriate and shouldn't be employed by the township, I'm fairly sure there's a process that you can go through to um to uh eliminate a vendor so that the township can no longer contract with them if they've delivered if they have failed to deliver a service, if they misrepresented a service that they delivered or it wasn't done to the standard of the quote that was that they delivered on.

I believe they can be eliminated so that they cannot be contracted with any more.

Um perhaps the CFO knows about that process and can tell you about it.

Yeah, very good idea.

We do well, we do vote on vendors, right?

So there are vendors and you vote on vendors, and then you would not vote on the vendor if you didn't want the vendor.

So when is the uh I think we're I think it's when is he hanging up what vendor are you talking about, Dave?

Yeah, well, he knows what what vendor news network, when can we vote on them?

Yeah, your your private hitman.

Private hitman, huh?

Yeah, this is so brilliant.

I I think that you guys really need to start taking advice of the attorney.

I think he's up there for you.

You meet in executive session, you meet in all kinds of settings with him.

Maybe you're gonna be able to do that.

He gives you really good advice.

You don't take it, and you're gonna get yourselves jammed up.

Yeah, we're gonna get it.

I really wish you would just listen to your attorney.

He's not my attorney.

He's the town attorney.

He gives you very good advice, and you often don't listen.

Thank you, Mayor.

All right.

Do roll call on D, please.

Do you have any questions on D?

No.

Okay.

Just want to make it so we're gonna do a roll call and item D.

We need a motion and a second, please.

A motion.

I'll second.

Motion was made by Councilman Biancini, I believe, seconded by Councilman Nivison.

Yes.

Council Vice President Iverson.

Councilman Biancini?

Yes.

Council Vice President Iverson?

Yes.

Councilman Bradley?

Yes.

Uh Councilman Sarkozy.

Yes.

Councilman Coleman?

Yes.

Councilman Aber.

Yes.

Councilwoman O'Toole?

Yes.

Okay.

That was D.

We're going to move on to item E.

I pulled E.

I was just I'd like the attorney, Mr.

Penny, to expand upon E if you could, please.

We talked about that briefly.

Yeah.

Basically, um the GIF contacted the administration, the township, saying that we had to put certain language in our policy and procedures manual.

Uh basically things that that show be were in line with New Jersey and ADA law on disability, sexual harassment, discrimination language.

And that uh we would have an agreement that employees would sign, and in doing so, the uh the GIF would lower our uh deductible okay.

Thank you limit.

Thank you.

Any questions?

So employees have to acknowledge that they understand what sexual harassment is, they understand what violating disability laws and uh discrimination laws discrimination.

And by them signing that they understand what that is, we would we would have a lower deductible.

Yeah, the gif would should there was an incident that we were sued for.

Right.

We would we would be we basically we get less coverage if we didn't put these things in our does that count the mayor attacking council people also when did I when did you get liable?

I'm teasing come on, you know that you do you do know that the uh the the limits for libel and slander on public officials is much much higher than it is on uh private.

Yes, I know that.

Okay, there's practical.

Yeah, so you guys can continue to say terrible things about me and get away with that.

I made you laugh.

You you did make the laugh.

All right, thank you.

All right, then um I'll motion to approve.

Okay, a second.

I'll second it.

Okay, roll call, please.

Motion to approve item E was made by Councilman Coleman, seconded by Councilman Biancini, Councilman Coleman?

Yes, Councilman Biancini, yes, councilman Bradley, yes.

Uh Council Vice President Iverson?

Yes, Councilman President Soccose, yes.

Uh Councilman Aber, yes, Councilwoman O'Toole?

Yes.

Okay, now we're on F.

Item F.

Who brought that up?

I I did.

Okay.

Um we already have a council attorney.

No need to spend more money, another one at this time, maybe in the future.

All council would want this if it made sense.

Unfortunately, not all counsel in favor of this resolution, therefore I vote no.

There was no motion in second.

No, there was no motion.

May I may I comment on this?

Sure.

Go ahead.

Okay.

So just so that everybody understands, and again, I've said it to you guys respectfully.

You need to sit down with your attorney.

You should have sat down with him about the rules.

In the Faulkner form of government, I put out RFPs.

They then you get to advise and consent.

You don't get to put out an RFP for yourself.

It doesn't work like that.

The township has a township attorney.

Okay.

We solicited for that in some cases, and then we also have an on-staff attorney.

So this is not.

And and the other thing I'd like to address is you say something about an attorney, um mayor's authorization of the township to sue the council.

What we spoke about is not a suit against the council.

And again, I I would just advise you.

We we have attorneys for you to talk to.

When we talk about your rules violating the constitution, and we talk about all these rules that are unlawful.

When we go and we ask for uh we basically ask for for what is it called?

Um tech action.

Declaratory judgment.

So we're not suing you.

We're just basically saying, hey, your honor, is the township attorney correct here?

Is this lawful?

It's not a lawsuit, so you don't need someone to defend yourself.

And and again, to be clear, the attorney sitting up there is your attorney.

He's our attorney.

Well, on the town to if I if I could also just speak to this real quick, uh, council president.

Um this resolution has a lot of issues.

Uh first of all, the law is clear on the Faulkner Act that council is not permitted to have a council attorney.

I am the township attorney along with Greg McDuckan, obviously.

Um you would be entitled to have that you would have but again you're not again you put the word lawsuit court but it's not a law we need somebody to defend.

But nothing's happened yet.

So my interpretation of the law is that you wouldn't need you wouldn't need this until it is.

I haven't drawn up any papers yet.

We could still discuss this.

Absolutely.

If you want to come into my office, I can I have table this then.

I have wait a second.

I you don't have to table it.

It's not that's the thing, Dave.

That's why I'm saying you gotta talk to your attorney.

This is a a resolution.

Uh I it does it's this is not the appropriate forum, but what I think you need to do is go read the letter that was sent to you FedEx overnight before you pass the rules.

Read what the attorney said about them.

That doesn't only open it opens the town up to liability.

A lot of the things you put in there.

Read what he wrote.

You guys can withdraw or change at the next meeting, and then we wouldn't need a deck action, which is why I didn't file.

I continue to reach out to you.

We did try to work together to make sure the town doesn't get sued for violating the constitution in your written rules.

I'm trying to work together with you on a lot of things.

You just gotta you gotta listen to your attorney.

He can't give you skewed advice.

He's gotta give you he's got a license he's gotta worry about.

He's not gonna lie to you, Dave.

So if he gives you something in writing that says this is unlawful, here's why.

You should probably just listen to him.

If you change the rules and modify them, work with him, you go work with Greg, whatever, modify them, and we won't need a deck action.

But otherwise, we're gonna need a judge because someone will sue us over that.

It's not just about me.

You're violating everybody's civil rights.

So you gotta you gotta listen to your tone.

Okay, that's it.

You can do it with an interpretation.

It's not an interpretation.

He's a lawyer for God's sake.

I would sign interpretation.

What do you say?

The law is not black and white, it's always gray.

All right.

It's not gray about arresting somebody for leaving a council meeting early.

It's not in this supreme court, they can't even decide what's a man and what's a woman today.

Okay.

Those are the kind of things again.

You just pass you know, look.

I I just think you gotta start listening to your attorney.

That's all.

That's all I'm gonna say.

You gotta you gotta listen to your attorney.

And your insurance broker, maybe even when it comes to some of that stuff.

Yes, yes, yes.

Unfortunately, the attorney is heavily influenced by you.

That's not true.

I I said I've sworn an oath to the court.

Yeah, but I have a license to worry about.

Yeah, but I took it.

I will have a you have a job to worry about.

Everybody is afraid.

I don't have a job to worry about.

Listen, so let's just vote on things.

Don't don't vote it.

Let's move along.

Make a motion.

So make a motion to table it for now.

Okay.

Is there a second?

I'll second.

Okay.

Motion to table item F was made by Councilman Nivison.

Second by Councilman Biancini.

Councilman, uh Council Vice President Iverson to table.

Yes.

Councilman Biancini.

Yes.

Councilman Bradley.

Yes.

Uh Council President Saccozi.

Yes.

Councilman Coleman.

No, based on what our lawyer just said, I'm gonna vote no.

This is to table, Councilman Coleman.

Yeah, I'm voting no.

Okay.

Uh so you want it to be voted on?

Okay.

He wants to vote against it.

That's what he's saying to you.

No.

Saying he's against tabling it because he'd like to vote against it.

Tell him what he's doing.

You're telling him how to vote?

No, I'm not telling him how to vote, but I talk to certain members of council, even though even yourself.

I spoke to you to Mayor, Mayor, excuse me, one minute, please.

Sorry about that.

Sorry.

I just spoke to the lawyer, and I'm going to change my vote.

I have folks.

I know you all know everything about everything, and I've never said I know everything about everything.

Okay.

So I'm just saying to you that I'm going to vote also to table it.

That's all.

Simple.

Okay.

Thank you.

Councilman Aber?

Yes.

Councilwoman O'Toole?

Yes.

That motion.

I mean, that item is tabled.

We're going to move on to that was F.

We're going to move on to the letter G.

Was that you again?

Yeah, G?

Okay.

All right.

Um.

All right.

So this one's on the animal shelter.

What do you want?

Do we have to take a vote first?

So okay.

So I'm going to ask Council President, do you want a discussion amongst yourselves or do you want roll call right now?

No, the discussion.

Okay.

And then the public.

Okay.

Yes.

So the um the only thing is I think before you discuss and before you speak to the public, do you think you might want to ask the attorney whether this resolution would have any impact on the animal shelter?

You might want to ask the attorney that.

If all right, real quick.

Because you never asked them.

You never asked him.

You never sat down and talked to him about it.

You just put it on.

Okay.

So maybe just ask the attorney whether this does anything for the shelter at all.

I'll be real brief.

Um I actually got a because I know that uh my allegiance is being questioned this evening on the day, which is fine.

But I actually got a call from uh assemblyman McGuckin today, and he informed me that he his belief was that this resolution had no teeth.

Okay.

Had no legal teeth.

And and who determines that?

A lawyer.

Assemblyman McGuckin, the director of law, esteemed attorney in Ocean County.

That's his opinion.

Yes.

Okay.

He writes the laws, Dave.

He writes the laws.

The state legislature.

Okay.

Yes, please.

All right.

I met with the county officials at the shelter this morning.

They said they never wanted it, don't want it.

They were forced into it.

And they're happy, very happy to give it back to Tom Gervor.

I have text messages from McCrion Rumph who runs the board of health.

That I just engaged with Brian Rumpf.

I'll share it with the press.

Just engaged with Brian Rumpf yesterday in text message and then follow-up phone conversation.

Mr.

Rump said they got bids in to bring the thing up to code between five and six million dollars.

That's what it's going to cost the county to bring in the dog runs, the ventilation system, the new cages, and make the adjustments to bring it up with state statute.

Brian Rump, I have it right here if anybody in the press wants it.

Five to six million dollars is what their bids came in at.

It's a public information for anybody who wants to do that.

I could elaborate.

Which engineer?

I'm not going to name any names.

Okay.

There was an engine.

Was it there was an engineer, two county representatives.

They explained what the five to six million was, and they also said these weren't necessary.

They were upgrading.

They were putting a double surgical center into it.

They were building huge additions to the back of it.

They were taking all the HVAC units off the top, which don't need to be replaced, replacing that.

They were putting a gigantic uh backup generating system in.

That's where the five to six million.

None of that needs to be done.

Right.

But there I have a listen, I I have I would rather speak about the animal shelter at the end of the public comment, but I will say the county uh Mr.

Brilliant, who's here today, he filed a lawsuit when we initially handed it over to the county, and in that lawsuit, there's all the documentation that shows that by law you have to have the dog runs by law how you have to have the ventilation.

It it's all in there, the state statutes, which is why the judge was invited for 20 years ago.

Which is why you're saying it was in violation for a very long time.

So perfect.

But again, I just want to point that out.

It has to be updated.

All the information is in the lawsuit that was filed against Phil Brian and the judge's decision and the information in the response.

So this is all part of state statute.

You have to have dog runs or large aggressive dogs.

No one can get into the cage with them to let them go out to the bathroom.

And then they sit there and they don't get let out.

You have to have dog runs so that large aggressive dogs can be let out several times a day.

Dogs were only being let out once a day.

And operational bad dog, well, dangerous dogs weren't being let out at all.

Some of them were there for three or four years.

These this is all documented.

This was in the newspaper before I ever got in.

The plan to go to the county was initiated, and the first discussions were done with the prior administration.

I didn't invent the idea of giving it to the county.

Mo wanted to go to the county.

I would have supported that.

Mo didn't want to deal with the outrage.

And I I and I I get it, but what after I saw it, you stop.

After I saw it, I took on the cover.

Uh I I did it.

And I stand by my decision right now.

The animal shelter uh will be redone, but the county has excess capacity.

We pass off our animals.

It costs $200 for a dog with animal control to pick the dog up.

It costs $70 to hand it over to the county.

County just expanded.

They took on Popcorn Park.

They are opening a new facility in Barnikett, and eventually they're going to update this facility to be beautiful, like he just said, with medical facilities and everything else.

It's a wonderful plan.

It'll be much better for the dogs.

The county does an excellent.

They don't want it.

They do not want it.

Okay.

Yes, I'm sorry, Lynn.

Go ahead.

Thank you.

When I first got elected, one of the first things that I did was go to the animal shelter.

And when I went there, and I and I'll give you a little bit of background for me.

I owned a pet shop.

I've raised animals, bred animals, I've had horses, dogs, you name it.

My family was very big into animals.

When I went to that shelter, I was appalled.

I could not believe the way the animals were kept.

You cannot build a shelter with glass triangles and a wall.

No outlet to the back.

You have pit bulls, you have different animals that are very hard to control.

There no human contact.

It was disgusting.

And the county did take it over.

I didn't hear anybody breaking their arm, twisting their leg, or tell or or begging them.

They stepped up.

That animal shelter when it was built eight or nine years ago, whatever it was, it wasn't built right to begin with.

And we spent a lot of money on that shelter when it was built in the beginning.

I saw it for what it was worth.

It was horrible.

And people there didn't give a rat's ass, excuse me, about the animals or anybody else that was there.

And the same to you, dude.

Okay.

All right.

Thank you.

Well, that's because you guys keep cursing at her and stay.

I know it's not you, sir.

I know it's not you.

But some of you are uh some of your friends.

Here we have another council person.

Go ahead.

So if we say that this resolution doesn't have teeth, then how did this one that gave it to the county?

Is it because Peter Pascarella is on the back of this?

I'd really like to know.

Because if you're gonna this was done by you guys, why can't we take it back?

It sounds like you just don't want to do the right thing.

I'm seriously tired of this going on around here, all right?

Where people are, you know, just doing the bidding of the mayor, right?

What is the date of that?

August 7, 2024.

How does this not have teeth?

How does this have teeth?

But that doesn't, because we want to take it back.

No, well, it's in the possession of Ocean County.

They would you would have to reimburse them for the amount of money.

No, they have a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of this.

And police and the administration would have the power to staff it, and they could elect not to staff it.

But but it was done by resolution, you're right.

But this was done by resolution.

So, no, the little there was a lease.

There was a lease by resolution, but you don't understand.

The mayor enters into leases.

This we went over this before with the attorney.

The mayor enters into contracting, the council advises and consents.

I'll pay for you guys to go take a class at the league and municipalities if you like.

You gotta learn how the government works.

You're new, and if you're not gonna research it on your own, you gotta sit down with one of the attorneys in the pool that you do feel trust in and let them explain to you.

But you come in, you got a lot of people here that are interested in the shelter, but you you didn't dot your eyes across your T's.

This is not something that this resolution would accomplish.

Uh I I would rather I I'm gonna stop speaking.

I'm gonna address some of this at the in my closing comments, but I I like I said the offer is there.

Meet with the attorneys, loan what you can do, what you can't do before you get people all excited about something.

Thank you.

Thanks.

Okay.

Anyone anyone else want to comment on G?

I do.

Okay, go ahead, please.

My position is if the county had not wanted to take control of the shelter, it would not have signed the contract, in my opinion.

Council Nivinson also stated to me that the county was pressured into signing the contract.

When I asked him what pressure could have been used to cause the county to sign, he said he didn't know, which I believe.

I personally cannot imagine what that pressure could have been when the town could pressure the county to do anything.

I can't imagine it.

I can't imagine what the pressure could be.

I can't believe it.

And by the way, probably I'm not interrupting you.

I'll let you know.

Okay.

What the pressure.

By the way, Julie, Mr.

Rump also said the county shelters are not full.

And one of and the county has also taken on the Popcorn Zoo in Lacey Township as one of their animal shelters, and that the county is currently constructing an additional shelter in Barnegat.

During the last agenda meeting, I asked Council President Chacosy to please not put this resolution on the agenda for today's meeting so it could be further discussed.

His response was, and I quote, I can't.

Well, that just doesn't make any sense to me.

I found it interesting since he is the council president and has the authority to decide what goes on the agenda.

Therefore, I can only surmise that someone is pulling his strings, and he could also be called a puppet, like Councilman Nivison called me when I was president.

They hand it right back.

So anyway, um, when this comes up for a vote, I would like to vote.

Okay.

I can answer your question now.

All right.

I could answer your question.

Okay.

That's fine.

The pressure that was put on the county was probably threats, and if they weren't spoken, someone in the county had employees, relatives who are probably going to get axed if they didn't do it.

Just like he's done to so many people.

You say the most ridiculous.

I'm gonna have to myself not a curse.

You say the most ridiculous.

You lie.

When your lips are going, you're lying.

Right, but you can't back up anything you say, but I lie.

I'm not gonna name names because I don't want it.

I don't want to get anybody in trouble.

Okay, Dave.

Okay.

Clinton's.

Who who here is a county?

Who you name an employee that I have control over or whatever else that is a county freeholders relative.

Let I want to hear which one this is.

Um you say the most bizarre things.

He does.

He does Dave, I'm sorry, you're right.

That point.

Go ahead, Dave.

Go ahead.

Go for it.

Thank you.

Appreciate it.

All right.

Everyone, I I just want to interrupt here a little bit.

We had our first agenda meeting um last Wednesday.

Okay.

It was difficult, but I have to thank uh the clerk, Steve, Angie, the lawyer, John.

Jonathan, my name's Jonathan.

Jonathan.

Okay, and the mayor by phone.

And um it was difficult, trust issues and everything, and for the most part, it was civil.

Okay.

So going forward, um, we're we're keeping a list of who attended these meetings, what was said, the date, how long the meetings were going forward.

And we invited um Councilman Coleman to come.

Okay.

I would have rather have uh Robert Biacini or Clint Bradley with me.

Tom was with me, but we want the other side there.

So um and we're trying, okay.

So uh this is a good one.

And you're doing a good job with the meeting too, Dave.

And I want to thank you too.

Now you're pushing.

No, I you are you're doing a good job of being fair, and I want to thank you.

You really are.

Okay.

All right.

You really are, and thank you.

This is our town.

Okay, Mr.

All right.

So, statement of purpose and justification, resolution to terminate the search shared services agreement with Ocean County and reopen the Toms River Animal Shelter under municipal operation.

Over the past nearly two years, members of this council have heard clearly and consistently from residents who want the animal shelter to remain under township control or township directed management.

Public comments and correspondence repeatedly emphasized accountability, transparency, responsible use of taxpayer dollars, and keeping the shelter aligned with local priorities.

Most importantly, ensuring that the animals of Tons River continue to have a shelter of their own as originally intended.

As part of our review, council carefully examined the operational and financial impacts of the options available to the township.

That review showed that moving forward under the previous discussed agreement with the county would have required taxpayers to spend more than three million on capital renovations to the existing facility.

These costs were not tied to safety issues, code violations, or deferred maintenance, but rather to configure the building to fit a different operation model.

While we respect and understand understand the county's operational standards, the full cost of these facility changes would come with much unnecessary spending from a practical and financial standpoint.

That level of investment did not offer a clear benefit to township residents or an improvement in service levels that would justify the expense.

Council carefully considered long-term governance, oversight, and cost control, with the county already providing animal sheltering services for 33 other municipalities.

Council determined that uh town of nearly 100,000 residents spanning 45 square miles warrants direct control over its animal welfare services.

Maintaining township control ensures alignment with local priorities, clear operational oversight, and better management of both costs and outcomes over time.

I want to be clear that the decision to put this resolution forward is not a reflection of any deficiency on the part of the county.

Rather, it reflects the township's obligation to evaluate whether a proposed operation model is appropriate for our facility, our budget, and our community expectations.

This council remains committed to a solution that balances humane care, operational efficiency, and fiscal responsibility, consistent with the expressed interests of our residents.

Thank you.

Anyone else?

Anyone in the public, please come forward if they have something to say?

State your name first and last for your Anis Galante, 1149, Cherokee Court, Tom's River.

Um I do I appreciate the mayor being able to speak, not as far as with the insurance, but with this and giving some particulars.

But on the other side, Mr.

McGuckin uh rendered his opinion, right?

Which is that's what that is.

So you can go forward with that.

So it is also my opinion as well.

Yeah.

But this is just not the correct mechanism for reinstating them.

Okay, but those are legal opinions, then the laws written for people to give their opinions, but they have a different opinion.

So now the county did go with you today.

Yep.

Why would they go with you if they didn't, you know, consider giving up their control or giving up their utilizing the animal uh Tom's River Animal shelter?

Why why would they show up?

I wasn't there today.

Uh I wasn't Tom can answer that question.

He was there with Robert and they were counseling.

In my opinion, thrilled that we showed up.

They don't want it.

And the only thing I could say is they were pressured in some way to take it.

Were they pressured to show up today?

No.

No.

Why would they show up if they showed up that that you couldn't use through this resolution and that the township can't be able to do that?

Oh, they're back.

Why they're thrilled.

They don't think they're thrilled to see this resolution.

Who um who was it that you met with?

I'm just curious.

The individual I'm not going to tell you because I'm not going to throw any of them under the bus.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, you just want to get vengeance, just like you exactly.

I have nothing to do with the county board of health.

You have you have nobody they say that you could confirm who you met with.

Okay.

Before you said you met with the county engineer.

County engineer has nothing to do with the board of health.

You know that, Mr.

Galante.

The county engineer has nothing to do with the board of health.

It wasn't a county engineer.

It was an engineer who was there when they put everything out to bid.

So he could tell us exactly what was that name.

I'm not going to give you his name.

I know the names of these engineers.

It doesn't matter.

Listen, I I appreciate that you can't.

And I have to believe that.

What Mrs.

O'Toole said because I toured the same facility.

And when a dog defecates, someone's not standing there with a doggy poop scooper.

Sometimes it sits there.

Those glass enclosures have been fine and will continue to be fine.

You said they were bad, and you and I were locked out in the morning at corporating hours.

No one would open a door to me.

And your wife, the U.

We were engineering.

Sorry.

For the HVAC may be off.

It was very hot.

That could be remedies.

Right.

Fresh air returns are needed.

There is some upgrades that are needed.

It's not six million.

It doesn't need more upgrades than it cost to build the place initially.

You may not be correct on that.

We have another question.

The proposals are, I think exception to Ms.

O'Toll when she said how filthy and dirty it was, because I also went to the shelter several times.

Now back two and three years ago, there was definitely a problem.

And that all got corrected.

Got corrected when I went to get rid of it.

It got my own three pet stores myself.

I placed over 20,000 dogs, been in the business for a lot a lot of years, and I saw that facility, and I saw how well it was run.

Other than I saw it.

May I ask you a question, Mr.

Mr.

Galante?

Can I ask you I I you know I always respect you, always value your opinion.

Can you tell me what is the difference?

You are a you are a fiscally conservative guy.

What is the difference between us running it and paying for it and the county running it and upgrading it for free?

Why does this bother you?

Is it is it somebody that was terminated?

Is that what it is?

Is it just I don't get it, right?

It's gonna open in fact it probably would have been open sooner, but there was a lawsuit that hung out there for like six months, and there was a petition and all this stuff, and it it set it back probably a year.

So I just don't understand as a fiscal conservative, because I believe you are, I know you are.

You used to always, you and I would always talk when they were doing crazy things before I ever got elected.

What is wrong?

We pay.

Well, we were one of only three municipalities in the state of New Jersey who had its own animal shelter, one of only three.

Okay.

Why would we pay for a service and invest all money into a building when it's the county's function?

Every other shelter in the state is is run by the county.

I'm just asking.

Run by the county.

I really want to hear what Mr.

Galante has because I really respect him.

I just want to know like why letting them do it, why why why having them run it and not cost us anything?

Why would you oppose that as opposed to why do you need why do I need why don't why does a Tom's River have to run it?

I'm just I'm really lost on the fundamental issue that we're all fighting about.

What do they call it?

Home rule?

Yeah.

We packed this this room 12 years ago, was it?

Because the public, the Toms River residents wanted it.

That's right.

And that's what it was.

And we wanted it under our control, the way we did it.

Okay, and that that's the reason why.

What the county can do, I don't know what the county can do, but they're a good job specific, and the county does what the county does.

But they do a good job, the county.

Mayor, they do public time.

They do a beautiful job.

I when my dog was lost, this was big public, right?

My dog was out there for like three, four weeks, and I could go there at all kinds of times.

I'm talking to Mr.

Galante.

I know, but he's getting more time than he hasn't spoken.

So for home rule, you feel home rule.

I want to know that you you said that there's plenty of room still in the county shelters.

There isn't.

I just got off the phone with him yesterday.

I want to know there was no sends.

The Tom Ziver shelter closed.

What is the increase in the euthanasia of animals and pets?

Look it up and bring it to me and show me.

Um do that.

I'm pursuing that.

Do that for me.

Because you know, you know it was very high here.

You know it was very, very high here.

There's a lot of people and come on, it was right on the state's website.

Well, there may be some of the things that we're gonna do.

Come on, it was higher here.

It was it was ridiculously high.

Mr.

Galante, thank you for indulging me.

And I go ahead.

Go ahead.

I'm sorry.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Yes, good evening.

State your name for the record, please.

Don Corbett Nivesen.

Okay.

Good evening, Council President, Vice President, and uh the rest of the council.

I just want to state a couple of things.

Um the runs, there are runs that are open to the outside.

They have them.

Dave Matthews is here, maybe he could speak to it.

Um the other thing, if there are renovations that need to be made, we still have the donation money left by Mrs.

Pine.

It's almost a million dollars.

That should cover quite a lot.

There's a petition signed by thousands of Toms River residents to reopen the shelter.

That was basically ignored.

The shelter has been closed for more than a year and a half now.

The county is not working on it, it remains empty.

In the meantime, we have nowhere for our animals to go, and less and less shelters are open.

There's more of them closing for renovations.

Popcorn park is closing their shelter for renovations.

They're actually rebuilding their whole building.

And I believe the county has a shelter that's closing for uh to be real rebuilt or or redone down in uh Manahawk in.

Okay, the other thing is a shelter is not a pet store, it's not a breeding facility.

It does not have to have to have long-term animals there, so it can be built differently than any of those places would have to be.

It has to be temporary.

It's supposed to be a harbor in the storm for homeless animals that have nowhere else to go.

Right now, we are short on space at every shelter.

We can't afford to wait any longer.

We have to find a way to reopen this.

And I commend the council for moving this forward in a positive direction.

Even if there are people that say they have no, there's no teeth in this.

This is moving it into the right direction.

And I thank you.

You're welcome.

Thank you.

Come forward, please.

State your name first and last and your address, please.

Linda Scott.

Okay.

Okay.

I'm also here though, representing say.

Sure, animal volunteer and you speak into the microphone, please.

Yes, ma'am.

Thank you.

Raise it up.

Or you could take it out also if you want.

Good.

Yeah, okay.

Just a brief.

We've been around over a quarter of a century.

We started because of the Tom Server shelter on Whitesville Road.

We are the ones that advocated and put the shelter on the map.

The community, the people are the ones that saw to it that it got built.

It got designed after a state-of-the-art facility before anything was even done or built to the shelter.

But I came here to make a very sad announcement.

It's bittersweet.

Save after over a quarter of a century, has closed their doors to the no-kill shelter that we ran.

Thousands.

Can you imagine in over 25 years?

We save hundreds a month.

Not the ones so-called running around in the street.

We're talking about the community.

We're talking about who died, who got a divorce, whose abuse, who's in a nursing home.

Those people can rest because we took the animals in.

But not just us.

You have rescues in this town and connecting towns.

They can't handle it.

They have done a tremendous job just like we have.

This is going to impact this town.

In over 25 years, the population has grown, as you said.

You handle 44 miles.

That's why Toms River needs their own shelter for Toms River animals.

With us out of the scene, it's gonna be even worse.

Every day, if y'all have the ring, you hear the police are answering animal control.

You didn't read that before.

Who's running at large?

And the police force is unbelievable because these people answer the calls.

The police officer came and they're on their way to Ocean County shelter.

So they are to be commended that they have a heart and that they actually are saving someone's pet.

But we have kitten season that's gonna be coming in again.

And what our avenue is going to be, the thrift shop's still gonna be on Fisher Boulevard.

We are not going away totally, we're going in a spay and neuter direction to help this township out, to help the public out as best we can.

We are still going to need donations.

We'll try to start doing grants and stuff because giving up the shelter and everything, but we're still here in this town, and all we're asking is that you you brought this up.

It it needs with all due respect to to the ones who don't think it that shelter is Tom's River shelter, and the townspeople should not be paying for shelter that is not specifically for their animals.

And as far as Ocean County goes, they didn't want the shelter at all.

And the only reason why they would take that shelter over is because why not?

They deal with so many animals.

Why wouldn't they take an empty building if we're not gonna use it?

Why wouldn't they take it?

That's just common sense.

As far as the yeah, I'm old.

When I started this 25 years ago, 12 years ago here up in here, now I'm older.

So things break.

And yes, there's some refurbishing that must be done.

I have no doubt.

Five million of it.

It was explained.

A lot of that is not necessary.

Although I do believe in outdoor runs.

I do believe in that.

So just please reopen our shelter.

Okay.

Thank you.

Good evening.

Okay.

Are you one in the clocks?

Five minutes, right?

Okay.

All right.

Just to be clear, Council President, you still want five minutes for each speaker here?

Yes.

Okay.

Irene Watson, Messenger Street, Tom's River.

Whether uh Tom's River takes over the shelter or Ocean County does.

Um I think these things should be considered.

There was talk about ventilation, air conditioning units, and so on.

But what Tom's River did have that didn't help the ventilation for diff for the dogs was that they had a plexiglass door on the front of the cage that did not allow good uh ventilation for the dogs that were in the cage.

Um I went to the uh Ocean County shelter in the South in Man in uh is it Manus?

Manhawken.

Thank you.

Uh they had a very simple device to let the bully dogs out.

They just pulled a chain, the dog door went up, the dogs are allowed to go out into their very personal outside space so they could then feed the dogs, clean the dog's cage, and so on.

Um the other thing they had in uh the ocean county south was very nice outside for the dogs.

They were 20 by 20 or so uh caged in area with toys, a place for somebody to sit, um, and the dogs had a nice outside place.

The other thing is well, Tom's River have an overflow.

Ocean County had an overflow in Barnegut, and if there was some big tragedy like Super Storm Sandy or whatever, there was a place for the animals to go.

Will Tom's River again take care of if it did the wild animals?

That's another additional amount of space that would have to be considered.

Will there be a vet on site on a regular basis?

Will a vet be available in emergencies?

Simple thing.

How about a sign for the animal shelter?

You go to uh Ocean County South or Ocean County North in Jackson, there's a sign that says it's the Ocean County Animal Shelter, and it has the times they're open, not by appointment.

They were open three hours a day, one to four, seven days a week, every day, except Christmas and a handful of other holidays.

Tom's River, more recently, was only open by appointment.

They also have Ocean County also had a 24-hour receiving service of a dog or cat or whatever was found in the in uh the middle of the night or whatever.

Uh regarding an animals being euthanized.

When this all came about, there were big signs that said ocean county kills animals, the mayor wants to kill animals, they are the big on euthanizing animals.

I attended the Ocean County Health Department meeting about this, and I asked specifically, will you, if you take over the Toms River shelter, will you carry on their way of not euthanizing animals?

And their reply was when Tom's River wants to euthanize an animal, they send them to us, right?

Now, remember, Tom's River is part of Ocean County.

We are being taxed by the Ocean County animal shelters, whether we go with them or we don't.

That tax will be there.

So Tom's River is going to duplicate what the Ocean County Animal Shelter would give us.

The difference being being we will now have to be taxed for it.

So, bottom line, and no crazy uh renovation.

Bottom line, how much will it cost Tom's River at annually to run the shelter?

And thereby what will our taxes be?

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Thank you.

Can I address it?

Yes.

Irene, thank you.

Uh count uh council president Skozi is gonna let me address a couple of things, and you made some really good points, Irene.

Um, because we did talk about this this morning with the engineers about the outdoor runs, and that that was the least expensive things on their list because it's basically chain link and concrete and the pens inside with the plexiglass, also can be retrofitted with chain link.

We wouldn't probably so those were the the least upgrades, the least expensive upgrades.

And boss be annually to run the shelter.

We didn't get into that one.

Well, we didn't we didn't get into that with them, but we also originally we had a new side, we had the barrier.

About one million dollars or roughly one point.

We had an 1%.

We had tax increase.

We had sign it would be I have that number for you.

I do you don't know the number, I have the number.

It was costing about a million dollars a year.

We we actually had a lot of people.

Which is which is a little over one percent of the levy, but that was about 90 million.

On the day is we we had on top of the county.

We had ideally another million bucks a year for the high school kids to design a brand new sign for Oak Street and another one for the pay of taxes.

That's and it wasn't gonna cost the town anything.

We had a whole sign, and we were gonna raise up the answer, uh the hours.

Okay, I I just want to know the the most important is what will it cost the town annually?

We okay.

We're gonna have testimony in a little bit.

Right now we to that we have figures in the 475,000 dollar range.

Okay.

I guess AI for what it's worth, and it did say from 500,000 to a million to run an animal shelter.

Yeah, so that's what our taxes will be.

Okay, so we wouldn't have to pay it if I haven't I haven't spoken to one person in the town that said they wouldn't mind paying a tax to have the shelter open.

Maybe just you so far you might be the only one concerned, but uh I have not spoken to one person who was concerned about their taxes going up if the shelter was opened.

So thank you.

Okay, good evening.

State your first and last name, please.

My name is Deborah Kirsey, and I live in Barth Street in Tom's River.

So I have a couple of things.

The first thing was it was very disappointing when we uh the residents of Tom's River signed a petition requesting uh to have uh the townspeople asked if they wanted to keep the Tom's River Animal Shelter under the control of Tom's River, and the mayor said no.

He refused to do that because it's his way or the highway.

So that was very disappointing.

We also had a million dollar um bequeathal bequest, whatever the word is, um, from a woman um that was to be used for the Toms River Animal Shelter.

I'm curious to know where that million dollars went.

I don't have a clue.

Yeah, um, I I'd really like to know where the million dollars went.

I think it was over a million.

I and I mean, with interest, I mean, if it was in an interest bearing account or mutual funds or something like that, I would think that it it would have grown.

In any event, um, you know, um, I am somewhat involved more on the fringes with um animal rescue, and we are having um we're really being inundated with animals.

People, you know, we live in a in um a very um a time when you know people are are suffering from um you know financial difficulties, and there's a lot of things.

There are people turning in their pets, there are people who um are not able to keep caring for their pets, people pass away, people move into situations where they're not allowed to have pets, and so um I know that since the mayor closed the Toms River Animal Shelter, there have been numerous times where the county has put out um requests for help because they were overrun with animals, and they were gonna have to start euthanizing healthy animals, and so um I commend you for bringing this back up again.

Um I really do hope that we're able to do something.

Also, I didn't attend these meetings because I was working at the time, but my understanding is that the Ocean County Health Department, when a number of people who I was involved with attended meetings, they said we don't want the shelter, but the mayor doesn't want it, and we can't leave Tom's River without an animal shelter.

And so my understanding was that they took it because he was dumping it.

And so I I don't know that they really want to operate another animal shelter.

Also, taxes, I think that the amount of money that it costs to run an animal shelter divided by the number of property owners in town is really not a very big amount.

It's it's negligible.

And so um anyway, thank you.

All right, thank you.

So, real quick, uh during the uh agenda meeting, like I said, we talked about many things, okay?

And we were apart like big distance, and the animal shelter came up.

So we're looking into privatizing the animal shelter.

So it'll cost the town very minimum money.

And we talked to the mayor, it was by phone, and and we agreed.

Uh Mr.

Councilman uh Coleman was there, that if it wasn't feasible for the town, then the county can keep the animal shelter.

But you know, we hear all these numbers over a million dollars.

I I don't see it.

I I never see it.

And then we have documentation that it was right around a half a million, four hundred and eighty thousand dollars a year.

So we so we have volunteers, the field of dreams with the children there, they want to take part in in the animal shelter.

So if if the town can make money or break even on this uh by privatizing it, we have uh several entities that are interested in in this building, and and they could modernize the computers, uh the uh websites, and and and they could do everything.

So um this is just the first step.

I didn't mean to interrupt.

Mr.

Brilliant.

You didn't interrupt yet.

Okay, so I didn't say anything.

Uh Phil Brilliant, 79 Holly Tree Lane.

Um, just one quick comment.

I I love the transparency, accountability, and all the public comment, but we may need to move the meetings back to four o'clock.

Um, this is getting a little late.

But anyway, um, no, it is good, and I think just a couple comments.

Did you say that already?

Um, but realistically though, um, you know, uh just to be clear.

I think first of all, I think last actually it's two years ago now, and it was said already there was an ordinance that was passed, there was a lot of passion, there was a lot of concern, there were a lot of residents they came out, there was a lot of TV time and articles and all those good things, and the majority of the council did not listen, and they passed an ordinance, and the people went through the petition drive within 20 days.

We had over 4,000 signatures, it was uh certified by the clerk, and it didn't go to a vote, which it should have.

Okay, and that was me suing the town because basically it didn't go, it wasn't the town suing me.

And the mayor's right, there's a lot in that lawsuit if you want to look at it.

What the numbers he's talking about is on his side, not my side.

There was not present provided was provided by me.

And you could also listen to or watch what the judge's outcome and decision was, because by the time I sued, okay, the town had already put the shared service agreement in place, and that was an end around.

So what you have here now, you have a shared service agreement that the council then approved again, the majority.

And last summer, I can't remember if it was June or July.

Are you sure it's not reverse?

Are you sure it's not reversed that we have a lease now?

Yeah, before we shared services, shared service agreement is second.

Yeah, it's a long time ago.

You wrote your lawsuit, so you probably have some orange details in first.

The shared service was second, and then the shared service agreement was amended last summer because basically the county came back and said, you know what, we might have a lot of money to spend.

We want to make sure that any money we put out, if you by some chance were to take this back and terminate the shared service agreement.

We want the money back that we put out.

What's your what's your reason?

What's the difference?

I would like to know from you.

Well, I'm gonna do it.

Can you tell me like what's the difference whether they run it or we run it?

Why is that important to you, Phil?

I'm gonna let you know in a second.

I promise I'll let you know before I finish my four minutes.

Um again, I'm not an attorney, not gonna weigh in it legal-wise, but you have a shared service agreement, you have an obligation to pay back the town with the money they put out.

That's in that agreement.

Okay.

I believe the county.

Right, yeah.

Okay.

I also believe they would get to keep they have we gave them the fund.

You gave them the fund.

The fund when you gave it to them, I don't have the number with the number of six hundred thousand dollars.

It's in the sixes.

Yeah, that's what it is in the six.

That was what was left in that in Miss U in the uh bequest that was left.

That is a correct number in that neighborhood.

And you know we could have used that for anything, but we didn't.

We gave it we gave it away to go back to interpretation.

It's it's behind us.

Let's not go backwards, let's move forward.

But we didn't, we gave it, we gave it to them.

You gave it to him.

Do you had an obligation to because that was I gave it to them willingly shared service agreement said you would give it to them.

That's what it said.

Anyway, um, but you know, uh okay.

So where are we today?

So one is so I commend you guys tonight for bringing this up early.

And if you really think about the process, and it's been talked about today, bids were already due back to the county for what the work was gonna be done.

I think it was like January 5th or something like that.

Six, okay.

If you wait until the summer, they have contractual obligations to who they bid out to, and people have time frames, they need to start moving forward.

So I think, and I'm not gonna put words in your mouth, you had to do something time of the essence because you couldn't wait, because if they start spending more money, you're gonna have to owe them more and more money.

Okay.

The question was asked: what is my concern and why would I want to care about this?

This is Tom's River.

We are a special town.

Okay, we have people in this town, and I say this all the time.

I am blown away by when I go to meetings.

The number of people who were born and raised in this town have been here 70, 80 years.

I graduated from high school, last thing I wanted to do was stay in that town.

This town, people stay, they love where they are, and when this animal shelter was built with township money, and I think it was 2011, it was around Hurricane Sandy, it was opened in that neighborhood.

It was a decision that was made, a plaque was put on the wall, which has been removed and should be put back up there.

And it's what the town wanted.

And I believe in the people.

So you ask me the question.

I have two rescue dogs, not from this shelter, but I do.

I love my dogs.

I they're my they're my sons, I only have three daughters.

So the bottom line that talk to you, right?

What's that?

Oh, they talk to me all the time.

Trust me.

You should tell I'll tell you the things they tell me.

Anyway, they like you.

Um, but the bottom line though is this is the town, and this is what they wanted, and I think the people should be heard.

And because of that, that's why I think you should vote on this resolution tonight and adopt it and deal with it going forward.

Thank you.

Thank you.

You didn't answer my question.

Yes, sir.

This is my first and last name and address.

Brian Becker for Greenley Tribe Man Alpin.

Um excuse me.

Brian Becker for Greenleaf Tribe Man Alpin.

Okay.

I can't believe you.

Can I have my comment first?

I can't believe you.

Can I have my comment first?

Council.

To come up here and have luck again.

She wants to talk.

You shouldn't even be here.

Okay.

And I am not going to listen to anything you have to say.

So all I can say is I would refer that to your attorney because public meetings are open to the general public.

It doesn't matter.

Well, I think she's concerned about your uh you're being charged.

Mr.

Mayor, I would recommend that you speak with your attorney because I would really recommend it.

I'd rather for that.

No, she said you were charged with a comments.

Attorney is recommended to speak with your client.

He got getting very close to the information to it.

Charged with the with uh with a crime.

It's all in the newspaper.

So I guess that's why she's not really interested in hearing with you from you.

Something about uh young underage girls, right?

Were you charging?

Were you charged with that, sir?

Mr.

I want to hear from you.

That's why she doesn't want to hear from you.

Based on comments that were made, I'm gonna speak to the pre through the council president.

NJSA 823 A1.1.

You could look it up.

Brian Becker, it's in the newspaper.

Okay, shh.

And I am not listening to the that's who Tom wants to run the shelter, by the way.

All right.

You did.

You you said that to me the other day.

I did you did.

No, I know.

Okay, we did it for a witnesses and proposal.

He's about to give us a report.

Let's hear his proposal how he wants to run the shelter.

Go ahead.

I'm not here to give anything.

All I'm saying is I use that accounts because you're joining.

Other municipalities that have municipal shelters, not three.

There's over 15 with a moral moral clarity.

Again, I would recommend to the chair to the council pre to the township's attorney to review 823 A13, which references animal shelters and the regulations of kennels.

Outside of that, that's all I was going to say, but I guess it's going to be we're to say get a lawsuit because there's going to be a lot of people.

You were charged with a crime.

You were uh charged with doing something inappropriate with underage girls.

You were charged in the newspaper.

You can look it up.

That's who you guys call up and bring in here every day to comment them on this animal shelter.

This is your friend charged with a crime.

We have no control who comes.

Of course, not one of us called all the time in the council.

Good evening.

Chamber out there.

Come on.

Again, councilman.

More lies.

More lies.

Look it up in the paper, everybody.

He said his name was uh Brian Beckner.

No.

Start to consult.

Name and address people.

I think that's the first one.

My name is Diane Mealy.

My address is 1403 Wallach Drive, Tom's River, 0875.

Um I am here as a Toms River resident for over 50 years.

Also for a representative for Save Rescue.

Okay.

Um the homeless animals, the injured animals, the abandoned animals in our community.

Are our communities' responsibility?

They didn't put them there themselves.

Okay.

It is our responsibility to be taking care of these animals.

The residents should not be paying for a shelter that is closed.

Now, since the time that it has been closed, nonprofits have been trying very hard to carry the burden of our community animals, and it's not working.

The majority of not the majority, all the rescues out there are nonprofit.

We go by donations, we go by adoptions, and we pay everything else.

Political appointees should not have been ever put in charge of that shelter.

Hopefully, when our shelter reopens, and our shelter should reopen because it is Tom's River's shelter.

We pay the taxes on it.

We need it reopened, we want it reopened, we deserve it to have reopened for our animals.

I don't want to hit the county.

People in charge, excuse me.

Sorry, the mic is all hard.

Oh, okay.

Um hopefully when our shelter does reopen, and I'm saying that with all due respect, it should be open as soon as possible.

Hopefully, our former ACOs should be reinstated if that's possible, because I know the majority of them being a shelter supervisor for the past six years with our rescue, and from the being also uh certified ACO.

So they are good, hardworking, caring individuals that are able to actually go out there and do a job that nobody else wants to do.

Hopefully, when the shelter is open, the people in charge, I would hope, and I hope, and I'm sure our residents hope as well, that the people in charge have some knowledge, have experience in running a municipal shelter, and also a commitment to the animals in our community.

And since the Toms River Shelter at that point was a state-in-the-art facility, uh, from what I understand that they do have a surgical suite that we should be on board with other townships in our area that have already started their TNR programs because the problem is so massive with community cats in our area.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Thank you.

Thank you for your work.

Thank you.

Good evening.

State your name and address, please.

Julie Adamek, 69 Cedar Grove Road in Toms River.