To the 2 30 Wednesday, April 1st Public Works meeting.

I'm Councillor Dr.

Wright calling me into order.

Item number two is Lacey Richards appointment to the Route 66 Commission replacing Amber Lit Whack.

Term expires July 1st, 2028.

Ms.

Richards is from District 2.

Right next to it.

Chair Gilbert, if you want me to pass it right here.

Welcome.

Tell us a little bit about yourself and why you would like to serve in this capacity on the Route 66 Commission.

Yeah, for sure.

I'm a native Colson.

Also Mary and a Broken Hair Boy.

And we have uh lived here our whole lives on and operated a business or a couple businesses here in Tulsa.

Um I have a background uh a master's degree from Northeastern State University.

Um, but I think my real heart is in um advocacy for small business owners and other small businesses like me.

Um we've grown our business from just a uh little Texaco at Sixton Rockford um and revitalize that little guy um into from about 1200 square feet to almost 10,000 square feet of production tap room.

Um so we do a lot of marketing, we take care of a lot of customers in Tulsa, really transforms what people consider um just beer into a place that serves many people as a third space, what people are calling third space these days, um, and having a place for the community, and we do a lot of um oh community events, a lot of social outreach programs that come and visit us and use our venue as a home to operate and have meetings out of.

And um as far as myself goes, um I have a background in counseling and therapy and um do a lot of marketing as well, and so I think I have a different kind of approach for other businesses and other people um who are also utilizing a community uh focused thing like Route 66.

Okay, great.

Um any specific ties to the route?

None other than being in Tulsa, no.

My grandparents are also from here, they're from Drumwright.

Uh my dad's side is also from Tulsa.

Um gosh, it's something not really, just me.

Uh Counselor Gilbert and then Counselor Archie.

Did you have to do that?

Yeah, so Lacey, thank you for everything that you and your husband have done to uh bring up your your small business.

You guys have done a phenomenal job, and I think that you would bring a lot of your expertise in that to the table of the commission and helping um other small businesses along Route 66 to um not just follow what you have done, but also I mean you're great with working with other uh businesses and uh just giving uh tips and everything uh to others and um uh I can't thank you enough for wanting to to serve on this and taking the time to do it.

So I'm sure Amber did a wonderful job.

I know Amber Litwack, she's wonderful, and so what a loss.

But I would love to fill those big shoes.

Yeah.

Um and yeah, I I do have a heart for people who there's a lot of great people who go into business and small business, but they don't know how to market themselves, or maybe they don't know how to advocate for themselves or how to reach customers in different um groups.

So yeah, so that that's what we're trying to do along the route is to build up those small businesses or even uh get more interest of small business owners to set up shop along the route.

So um I'm super excited that you're willing to do this.

So thank you.

I appreciate that.

Counselor Archie.

Thank you.

Lacey, good to see good to see you.

We've probably known each other for it'll be 20 years coming up.

I'll say that.

But um you all look very good.

Um you are smart.

There's so much that you're gonna contribute to um to the commission, and so um I'm very grateful that you chose to to say yes to serving and um love it.

So anything else, counselors?

Well, Miss Richards, um, we will actually take up a vote on the 15th at 5 o'clock.

You are welcome to be there if you'd like.

You're not required to, and we look forward to confirming you that I love that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Item number three is Obumakabum, reappointment to the Tulsa Arts Commission.

Term expires December 1st, 2028.

Attended nine of 11 meetings in district four, and I'm gonna recuse off this one.

So, Counselor Bush, could you take this one?

Yes, thank you.

Hi, welcome.

Thank you.

Go ahead and tell us a little bit about yourself and why you want to serve.

Well, my name is Abumukabam.

I'm currently on the commission.

Um looking to reappoint and as well as I'm the new chair of the commission if everything goes through.

Um, I've little friends.

I work I'm a social work at the school, so I'm running for an emergency that's happening, so I'm still half thinking about it.

But decompress.

It helps me to think those that's those are the people who I'm served and why I do this.

Um the youth is who is where my heart is.

Um artists as well.

So I love the arts, and I'll make I want to make sure we continue to serve the arts well and also it's also as a thriving arts city.

And so, what does that look like instead of just calling us ourselves that how do we continue to be the example?

How do we continue to bring everyone in our community um with us?

So I would love to open up more access to artists and we have a we have a lot going with us with visual art, but we gotta we gotta also help carry performing arts as well and music carry into the future as far as like how do we document how do we how do we keep things you know, how do we uh we call it just even archive things, right?

It's pretty it's pretty hard to archive performing arts.

So we're looking into that, we're continuing to work with that, which makes sure all the artists are served in the time where arts funding is being cut around the country.

Um, we want to make sure Tulsa is continue to receive access as well as our artists have opportunities.

So I look forward to continuing the work we've been doing on the commission and also bringing new energy, new ideas to the commission as well as um access to more artists and more of a listening gear for them.

Awesome.

Real quick, what kind of art do you do?

So I um I write X direct, so I do a lot of the theater here in Tulsa.

I've also opened a company called Black Broadway Tulsa.

Um we make sure we we have more access for students to and community members to not only be in shows but to get paid, train and get jobs for that, right?

Because we know you can work guest services in a theater, and then you can go to Target or Walmart and work guest services as well.

So we have a lot of our young teenagers doing that and training for light sound engineer.

Um so we want to make sure that they're learning more than just I don't send my kids to just fast food jobs, right?

I want to make sure they can have jobs all over the of the city.

So we use the theater and the performing arts shows and our venues here in town.

Um we training kids to work at the performing arts center and have real jobs there, right?

Or work at Keynes and work in you know engineering.

So we want to make sure we I guess one of my biggest thing passions here is making sure that we train everybody up here in this town and continue to make this uh thriving art city.

Love it.

Thanks.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I just want to tell you thank you so much.

Um, I know that you've shared some ideas with me, and I am grateful that you are a part of a community that really does care, not only in the artistic realm, but also with our youth.

And so we I'm I'm excited that you're back up, and I'm just so excited to have you as an asset for the communities.

Thank you.

Anybody else?

Thank you.

Thank you.

So we'll be voting on this.

We'll be voting on this on tax day.

Okay.

So if you're five to 15.

I'll play your taxes.

Yeah.

Welcome to be there, but it's not necessary, but you're always welcome at the five o'clock.

Well, I appreciate you guys.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you so much.

You're welcome.

Um, item number four.

Oh, without objection, we'd like to take five before four so we can release the presenters that are joining us to add this today.

You say presenter or presenters.

Yes, yes, presenters.

I will articulate my words.

So we'll take number five uh first discussion with the hotel guests discussion regarding the hotel guest tax proposal, including a summary of feedback received at the town hall this past Monday and a discussion of next steps.

Other than discussion, no action will be taken.

I'm tossing it to Ms.

Davis.

So I'll just be really brief on this because you all were all able to attend the town hall on Monday.

Um, so just for the public, we had a town hall and that covered what tourism means for a local economy, um, goes over where we are so far in our hotel um process, guest tax process, and also our facility needs that are supported by these funds.

Um, the major questions that we got were just more information about what the facility needs are, um, potential uses of the funds and various ways that they could support um kind of the long-term plan and even relation to the TID and also any potential exceptions that might be included.

Um uses and exceptions are something that you don't necessarily have to decide in order to um call the vote, um, but you certainly can also decide those things as well.

Um so just a recommended next step.

You do have a couple of um studies that might influence your decision making in this that are out.

I think in the next probably three or four weeks, you'll have more information back.

And so I would suggest maybe waiting a couple weeks and then putting this back on the agenda to discuss those outcomes and then spend that time to just finalize your proposal.

And so currently we're on a path to call a November election on this.

So you do have to do that.

Deadlines in June for that.

It's probably a little bit later, but I think our like internal deadline was to kind of wrap this process up by June.

So thank you.

And I'm glad that everyone could be there.

And thank you, Chair Gilbert, for running an efficient meeting.

So I don't know if anyone here wants to speak to that.

Councilor Dellis.

I'd be happy to, which I know, like uh, like I know we got the slides have been in advance, but not far in advance, so I can understand seeing that and going, hey, we've been talking like more, it seemed about August.

Um there's downstream effects from the change at the federal level with um Senator Mullen's seat now that he's head of DHS, which has put a lot more stuff onto the August election than we'd initially projected.

Usually when we look at August, we're like this is a municipal election.

We're gonna be educating voters about municipal election topics, and it's been brought to um several of our attention, and of course, want to make sure that this is a brought to the whole council's attention that when we look at what's happening in August between gubernatorial runoffs, um, that Senate seat, um, there's now a lot of state ballot questions that are up.

There's going to be a flurry of dollars being spent on campaigns, and then also all sorts of things people will be seeking to educate voters on that will make it really muddy the waters or make it hard for us to communicate clearly about the city things, or also be able to maximize our own voter education efforts, and so August has just become a very crowded and not as hyper locally focused ballot as it usually is.

Um, and so given all of that, it makes a lot of sense to look towards November instead, which it's weird to say that when we're like, oh, it'll be more locally focused, but there's just as of right now, a lot less stuff that muddies the waters at that time as we're trying to be really clear about voter education and being able to really reach voters with information and our economic development team is that's a good stuff.

Yep, yeah, and our economic development teams okay with the adjusted timeline for your pro the project.

Yeah, I know there's projects that have there.

Um, for instance, with that fill paid project they had mentioned is like that this they had always said they could stretch to November, but it would be a stretch for their feasibility.

I know there's also concerns for conventions that are hotel things.

My understanding is of um there may be like assurances that are needed just to like you know, whether it's what date we might have to consider, what date do we call this election, or do we need to do some type of resolution?

Like I'm not really sure what all those options are, but if we can create some type of real more stringent, this is the timeline we are committed to, or some indicator that'll help them with all of their different you know, like I guess lenders, or I don't know, I'm not an economist, so I'll stop there.

But they it seems like that would work for them.

So there's some more research ongoing.

Yeah, I don't think so.

For those couple of studies, I don't believe those studies will be finished.

What are the topics of this?

Um, one is the TPFA convention feasibility study.

Okay.

Um, and I don't believe that one's back yet.

And then the other one was that longer term financial modeling that we talked about, probably it's been a couple weeks, probably at the end of February or in a March meeting.

Um, modeling out what's the best and highest use of these dollars, considering your bonding consideration for the facilities, the TIN, and how that factors into these things, and so um that's one that uh a consultant was just identified last week, and it'll take them a few weeks to do that financial modeling.

Is there someone following what's going on at the state revenue discussions and how that could impact bonding and things like that to help inform our decision?

It sounds like we're on a parallel track for maybe sign a dye, so that would be a good thing to look across and see what what's coming.

Yeah, just a pin in that.

Yeah, Shane doing that.

Okay.

Well, he does for the city, and then obviously um the chamber probably um watches the state things as really as it relates to tourism.

Yeah, I'd be really interested in the uses.

I know we've had some conversations about maximizing outcomes on those dollars, and um I've just gotten some feedback through these conversations that if we're gonna make a once in 40 year decision to really be aspirational and visionary and not I mean, obviously do what's needed, but not constrain ourselves to a point where five years from now we're wishing we would have aimed a little higher or thought a little more broadly about uses.

Of course, things can change after the fact, but once it's gone out on a ballot like that, you know, then we're really getting into some sticky um conversations about ground ordinances or whatever.

I don't know, even though that would apply in these case.

The ordinance on the person use that can change um after elections, and it has changed it.

That ordinance has changed in the last 40 years.

Yeah, um, based on the needs.

So the ballot language is is broader more towards the economic development tourism stuff.

Okay.

Well, thank you to you and the staff and everyone that organized and our partners who basically were the expert panel.

We just got to be in the room watching along.

Um for people who felt like they missed it, they can watch our discussion that we had a couple weeks ago, which was largely similar with some date changes.

Yeah, there's all of the discussions that kind of inform our town hall are linked on our website on Tulsa Council.org/slash hotel.

And so they can go do a deep dive on those and we'll get the materials up that were presented at the town hall there.

They're currently attached to the meeting though, the special meeting.

Um with the research that's being done, is there also going to be a is this then to kind of I think there will be some scenario modeling.

Okay, great.

Well, any other items on number five.

Thank you, Counselor Bellis, for the summary of how we got to the path we're on.

Uh now we'll circle back to uh number four city council discussion regarding possible selection of charter amendments.

I imagine all that counselor Bellis just shared about August will probably influence a bit of this discussion as well.

So that was a good reorganization.

Yes, Count Uh, Chair Gilbert.

Um Madam Chair, I would also like to bring to the table uh a new uh charter change that counselor Bellis and I have been working on.

Um, and we've been talking to Jack and Sarah about it as well.

Um so this has to do with um shopping carts.

Everyone's gonna have to pay 250 dollars to no no no no no no this is a mere safety issue.

We're doing uh a study on health and and feasibility about shopping carts leaving uh stores.

So customers will not be able to take the carts.

This is I mean, we're still working on it.

Um take carts outside of the store.

They will have to either bring their car up to load their groceries or carry their groceries to their car.

Yeah, um, and I would just want to add on, of course, there's data in the back of the case.

Well, bad boys.

I think uh counselor Archie and I, as the uh lead counselors for the retail corridor, we'll definitely hold up well.

No, but let me explain.

So we have discussed yeah, they shouldn't be permitted in public rights of way parking lots.

Um we are the number one state in the nation for shopping cart fatalities, and so great.

Sorry, so that's like grading papers.

I knew right kudos to Jack and Sarah for saying staying straight face.

No, this is the first time.

We have a professional consultant with the case.

We're not gonna mention the lobbyists that sponsored this request for a charter change.

This is all just tells us we're of the world, I know.

That's too bad because Councillor Archie and I were ready to activate our community of retailers to really show up showing.

Where's Kevin when he was just breaking news?

Did you get them?

Yes, great.

All right, government.

So we do have five charter amendments that we have talked about.

Um, and I guess today, what are we supposed to do?

Decide if we're doing August or talk about not doing August.

I think you have a timeline discussion, and then probably discussing any of these that you feel like need to discuss more.

I don't know.

Did you want to tell them what was in front of them?

And we'll draw hold on.

Is Jack sharing?

Yes, so I'll take Jack and then I'll take a compilation of everything that's been discussed at this point, including a few revisions from the last committee discussions, for example, and the longevity discussion.

And uh third division and department has uh added the fire chief provision.

Um but this is kind of the status as of today on everything that's been discussed.

Okay, so should we just take them in order that they're in our packet?

Does anyone have any questions?

Uh changes or statements about the longevity pay for public safety since the last time it was at our four ball.

Let's go to the next page.

How about for SPIs?

This would be a new section in the same article.

What if what are we doing right now?

We're just going in the order of the packet.

Well, I know, but what's the outcome of going in the order of the state?

Anyone has questions, concerns, feedback from the last time we discussed it.

Yes, so I'm kind of piggybacking off this question.

What's our intent in going through the packet?

Well, so at some point we're going to take it up for a vote to actually have the city attorney solidify these.

He's worked ahead because he's that awesome.

But this would be the last, unless we're not gonna vote on charter amendments.

I apologize.

So what I'm kind of thinking of is based upon what councilor fell has just said earlier about item number five.

Right.

I don't think all of these are ready for potential consideration to put to a ballot.

And so that's not what we decide though on April 15th, currently can change.

We are scheduled as a body to vote on what we send to the attorney's office to draft for a ballot, right?

We don't mandatory, yeah.

It doesn't have to be in August.

And I guess what you're saying is that the thing we're voting on is asking asking it to be officially drafted, correct?

That's what's on your schedule for the 15th.

You also can have a discussion about whether you want that to be your schedule.

And that's what I'm trying to do.

Okay, so you don't even want to look at these, you just want to say, are we doing charter amendments on the schedule?

That's what I'm kind of implying.

What's my question?

So let's go with the timeline question and not the charter amendment.

Yes, exactly.

Yes.

So that's why I'm asking the question.

So if you're not gonna work towards a charter amendment, August ballot, what is the deadline?

I mean, or does it let me back up?

Sounds like there's consensus that August is not a good time.

So does this body want to work towards a November timeline, or are there people at this table who are like, let's kick those charter amendments into 2027, Councilor Bagel?

What you said last.

And that's no disrespect to anybody that's worked on any of these.

I just don't feel like this year whether it's August or November, I just don't feel like it's a good timeline for us if we're really focused on this specifically, especially since we also have the um I think we still have the ONG franchise thing that we're working on without the hotel motel tax.

What ballot is that going on?

O and G franchise November, so you're third.

That's aimed for August.

Oh, that was August.

So they're franchising it to the right.

I just want to state the obvious, but I I want to state it for the people following at home.

If we move the charter amendments, the state questions.

I don't think we've got to do that.

If we move so hold on, sorry, guess what again control?

Yeah, I'm sorry, I'm waiting.

If we move the charter amendments to potentially 27 or beyond, not necessarily these nine counselors that would be working on.

I just want to state that for the table.

So if there's charter amendments here that you personally have worked on that you personally want to get across the finish line in this term, if we're pushing it to 2027, could happen with you or could be to somebody else.

So I just when did we push it to 20?

Having that conversation right now.

Okay.

So we're just a proposal to move it to 2027.

That's what I'm hearing.

Well, but my question is are you thinking that for all of them?

Because I also know that's what the discussion is right now.

Yeah, we're just deciding what we want to do.

Because of all the things that we're going to have to consider, not only in August, right?

Um I I don't want to throw you under the bus here, Counselor Bush, but you you you and I had this discussion about potentially some municipal ballots that people weren't paying attention to or hadn't filled out.

Correct.

And it just kind of discarded.

Which municipal ballots there was last election.

Last election.

But you got handed both.

You got handed both.

If you look at the numbers, oh yeah, for those of us that went to November.

So maybe you didn't, so you didn't pay attention to this.

Several of the municipal ballots.

When you've got a big partisan ballot, and then a little bit and then the little nonpartisan one, they don't fill out the nonpartisan one.

Well, that maybe some people just choosing not to fill it out.

But the issue that comes up in my district is that they're not given it.

Right.

So that's a different conversation.

It's a different conversation, but I'm just saying, if we're passionate about this, I think we just ought to be careful when you've got big ballots.

Right?

The RD, which doesn't affect our ballot, and it doesn't affect judges.

It doesn't affect the state questions, but they won't fill them out.

Ballots are left blank.

So if we are passionate about this, the discussion is should we do it when we've got like it's the only thing we can focus on?

That's why we're looking at is it November?

Is it 2027?

What does it look like?

That's all.

We're not I just think we ought to be super careful.

And that goes for the hotel motel tax, too.

So I'm concerned in that being new on the council, relatively new, and this is something that I think as my colleagues and I would share that it's really important.

I don't want to see a go to 2027.

Here's the possibility that we can change council, and then bringing up new council members up to speed.

That'll be another reason.

That's cool.

Right.

And so I'm opposed to the idea of 2027, and I would prefer.

I know November ballot is probably the best.

But to your point as well that people don't fill out state questions information or whatever.

Um I don't know the statistics on that, and I don't know the data on that.

I would just say that I don't think that they're going to be those people that aren't going to fill those questions out or vote for them, are gonna be the same people that aren't going to pay attention to this as well in 2027.

So I'm I'm thinking, yeah, I'd like to see it in November.

Um can we not right now, but can we get a list or uh feedback of what it would cost to host a separate election because there are costs involved when it's not on a regular cycle because I think that should inform the decision as well.

You're talking about special like a special election and 27.

I feel like when we had this conversation a couple years ago, it was around 130,000.

I think not more.

Yeah, I think it's somewhere between 750 and 200,000.

150 to 200.

It depends unless taxpayer money on the back on the ballot.

We do usually budget for sensorial election.

Um those things on it.

I think your counselor bells.

Okay, counselor.

I I would just say on the 2027 deal, um, we still we still do have the possibility to all call the election in 2026 before we get maybe unseated and still have it take place in 2027.

So I'm I'm not advocating for either one November or 2027, but just from a timing standpoint, you can technically call an election through early December as a counselor, even though you wouldn't be a counselor if you were unelected.

Also for our newer colleagues, the charter amendments not only have to pass our body to get on a ballot and pass voters to get approved, the governor will have to sign them.

So we are we're gonna look at a leadership change here, so that's another consideration.

I think it might be helpful for us to see the schedule, Sarah, of like deadline, right to get on this ballot.

This is the deadline.

I mean, I can high level your your schedule that you currently have for August is is the one you have right now.

Sure.

Um, and then usually for November you're looking at more August deadlines.

Um so just kind of it's 75 days, but the charter has some publication requirements too.

That factor, right?

So about like a four-month lead.

Yeah, I would just think through, you know, you were on a May vote for an August, so you're about three months out, four months out on each one of those.

I'm amenable to moving it, but I would like to have um a repeat of public hearings if we're going to put a lot of space in it because I don't think it's fair to for us to delay and then like tell the public well, you already had a chance to weigh on this nine months ago.

So I think we need to keep um the public engaged much to the all the reason you all are sharing that a lot of people don't know that we have a charter, don't know that we can amend it, don't know what it means for them, why they should show them vote.

Um I think we need more time.

Sorry, I'm interrupting now we're in discipline.

Some of these are kind of complicated, and we're still vetting them, and I just don't think we're ready for prime time.

Let's let's assume there wasn't a crowded August ballot.

I think we're still educating ourselves on what it is and how it is gonna cost.

This allows us more time to vet that too, especially as we're getting to go into the budget season, which we already told the colleague and the mayor that we were gonna be hyper focused on budget.

So I'd like to continue to be that hyper focused.

Oh, yeah, I'm not listening.

I know.

Um Councillor Archie, you're new to this process.

Uh is this public?

Okay, we're all okay.

The camera is a public meeting.

It's always public.

So this is politics folks.

Um what I'm hearing is there's a desire for whatever we put forward to pass.

There may be some folks here that there's some things in there that they don't they don't want to go forward.

Um I am um there's some things here that I like.

There's some things in here that I still have questions about.

Um I don't know.

You know, I've I uh I feel like I agree with Council Bush in that there's some of these things I want more answers to.

Um I also feel like there are folks at the table who've worked very hard and diligently on um amendments that they think are very meaningful, and uh I don't want to participate in just in putting them off.

And so I'm I'm not I'm not decided uh you know which way I would you know would go, but I'd I agree that August would be tough because of the the dynamics, but any election would be any election day would be tough if it's if it's uh well yes, I mean there are degrees of toughness if you have 2027, you have to spend the money and then you know have to drive out drive turnout.

Um I don't know, I just still consider it.

Sounds like we have the spring to figure out if we want to hone in on a 2026 timeline or kick it into 27 and 28 or beyond.

We are only required by charter to review the charter.

We are not required to amend the charter, it just it works on this interval, and I've often wondered if we would switch intervals off of our election season if we might get more done more quickly.

Councillor Bellis.

Yeah, two or three fold thoughts.

I think we're gonna do that.

Let's do staggered charters.

I mean, what is career point?

This is a pretty in some ways frequent cadence to be revisiting our city's charter when you really think about I mean I think on the plus side we can all always hypothetically propose a charter amendment and call an election at any point.

I think it's nice if there's ultimate review time, but it is a pretty frequent thing.

That said, obviously there are the concrete intentional proposals here.

My curiosity is if there are things or just to be mindful of, since we have kind of an array of options, shopping carts maybe included.

Um that maybe there's some things that are more like you know, for instance, this first one where we had like no questions about it, and it feels a little bit more like I'm just wondering if there's sort of things that we would still want to put on for November or August, or I'm just trying to check in with everyone about if we want to take a one-size-fits-all approach for all of these, or are there specific ones that we're saying need more time or ones that we think are ready to go?

Which maybe it's just best to keep everything together.

I just checking if that's if there's any thought there.

I'm unclear.

So August, we're doing PSO, uh PSO, ONG, plus all of us, whoever draws an opponent.

And then November, I'm just thinking municipally is whoever of users in a runoff, which is usually me.

Um, and what else is going to November right now?

The possibly the lodging hotel guest, lodging for sure.

If there's no runoffs to November, would we still be on that timeline?

Yes.

I think there's still we state.

We are we're at a point that you're gonna get too close to call your hotel tax in August.

So you would be in a November.

It really needs to be November.

No, I'm just asking the question when we talk about turnout and who's staying off the paper.

Typically, from my inex my own experience of being here eight years, there's like two or three counselors that are in runoffs.

District 7 always gets the privilege of winning in November.

Um so when you think about turnout across the city, are they just gonna all show up on this lodging tax?

Are you just thinking they're all there for the big midterms and they're gonna go ahead and pick up that second ballot of election?

You acknowledge they fall off of.

I'm just asking the question.

And statistically there will be more people in November, period.

Yeah, yeah, but it's like on the second you also have um yeah, you have house and senate seats up.

It's gonna be a these are both gonna be.

Oh, I know all of that.

It's a big midterm.

I'm talking about the for the idea of like the second piece of paper, just gets right, and I and chance your question.

Can't sources it's we can't control that is because of the art.

I know.

Are you saying whether it's all the same?

No, I'm just we're in discussion, and and we heard arguments warned against why August is not good, why November would be better, and then we had a discussion about are we wholesale to picking up five charter amendments, possibly a six month on shopping cards.

If you guys can get all the research and budget implications in front of us timely, um would there be a strategy to pick up some of these that were more unanimously supported at this point and put them on the November ballot so that you have like longevity pay with the hotel motel?

Yeah, that was kind of my curiosity where this one's been you know I don't I mean it's just I don't want to decide today, but because now we have a longer runway, but if there's out of this packet of five one or two that we would move over with the lodging tax to strengthen a municipal case for a ballot, six aside from runoff six, sorry.

There's only four here, yeah.

Then the ones that need further study, just see how far along you get, we get what'd you say, counselor?

All of them for November.

Well, we don't have to decide today.

It sounds like we have like late June, early July.

Um so now back on the packet of five, possibly we're not really doing a shopping cart one, so we'll just hail cools, although in these strange times maybe we've written it out.

Well, I'd like to know it's still budget in life.

So of these five, does is anyone brave enough to say in this packet of five what you still need more information on, more data, more okay.

I'll take counselor archie than counselor.

Well, I'll say on our last uh well, we're still in just a long form discussion.

I think yes, some of these would pass in a November ballot.

I think the just me saying out loud, like the longevity pay, I think the would pass.

Um I think that um as far as questions, the of course, you know, on the support of our of our uh firefighters.

Um I need I've been seeing numbers similar to the discussion you would come to look at about just the four percent, four percent.

How do we sort of reconcile that?

Of course, I want to I want to give our folks raise raises how to make it work economically, and if I can see that in front of me in some way, I'd be a lot more comfortable with it.

Um maybe a little question on the on the council salary.

Um if I couldn't know the number because it's AMI.

Well, and I think it's like we're family four or something like that, just exactly you know, so we're all have different number of families, but if maybe we hold them on one number, that's a small question, but yeah, I think some of these the best in November okay, is that all?

Counselor Denton.

Yeah, so I actually would like to have uh more conversations and probably more reviews over the office of the independent review.

Um I know that we just got a media media knowledge of um what uh commissioner Roberts proposed that was the only way we found out was through the media, and so I would like oh wait, that's about an ordinance, right?

Yeah, that yeah, that's an ordinance, yeah.

I I I brought it to I talked about it last week, but it also has to do with oversight from my understanding, but I don't think it does.

Okay, I think that's part of the conclusion.

Oh, okay.

I'm taking that.

You mentioned it, but we don't we haven't done it.

Okay, right.

I think that's where we're still working on.

Okay, yeah, still.

Okay, so she means that within the context of this other charter.

Right.

Yeah, we're still working on similar looking, but definitely not the same impact.

Right, right.

So I just like more information on that.

And then the appointment qualifications of director and staff.

I'm not sure what that would look like down the road.

What's with the new administration voting on the department heads?

Yeah.

Can you give more information?

I'm not following.

So your question about it is how if we were to become involved in the appointments of directors, commissioners, whatever, how that would look during different administrations.

Or you mean that actually the process would be the same.

There's confirmation.

Yeah, confirmation.

Well, you know.

I mean, I've had curiosities kind of being off of that just about how it could either depending on implementation, like it could increase politicization of kind of a hiring or appointment process.

So that is like a concern I've thought about definitely what the makeup of counselors are.

I have been a bit worried about that.

Or that it could also open us up to just like you know, if it's increased HR involvement.

So I have one like this is just like me being very like you know, speculative about what could happen, but you know, sometimes and maybe no one here, but you know, sometimes wild things get said, and what if somebody says something you shouldn't say in a hiring process?

Like you know, we're that is never happened.

That's the yeah, no one's ever yeah, or if someone asks, you know, X question, like for instance, you know, we're kind of or just counselors, not us, but just like these seats, you know, it can be rogue agents relative to any other city municipal policy.

I would be curious.

My thought was actually like curious for like our um HR directors, like perspective, or like you know what this looks like within the hiring process.

I've just wondered about some of like best either best practice there or what safeguards could happen to prevent politicization of hiring and those roles because it is a and or and my other thought would be like what's the actual workload look like relatively for the council and agendas, like if how many, you know, how many times you know, is it during some years, especially if there's a new administration, you could be looking at or if someone's doing any restructuring, that could be a lot of humans, like for instance, I'm thinking about with department city experience coming and going and this administration came in.

How many people got moved around, so how many people would have come through our agendas.

There's just been a few things like a theme on the logistics of you and I visited about it's not we have a precedent for it.

We did it, we do it for city attorney, we do it for personnel director, we do it for municipal judges.

So I think some of those HR flags we've managed before without litigation and without politicization, not to say that your concerns aren't valid, but I just want to for those of us who've been here a while.

You probably didn't hear about the judge appointments because it was totally SOP and by the book and in a process.

I don't think the city attorney thing was super controversial.

I don't know, Jack went through it and came through the other side.

Um, and we didn't have lawsuits or anything, so I think it's important to understand that it would be more responsibility.

I'll just go back and level said that the reason Counselor Bush and I worked on that and continue to, and we can amend the amendments or whatever, or take them away completely, is when there are forward-facing department leaders, oftentimes constituents expect that we would have a say.

We have a say over like the sales tax overview committee, animal services, like the commissions, but not the actual like people who manage the staff and the budgets, and there's big budget impacts when you talk about division heads and department heads.

So that's really what's driving this.

It's um obviously there's can always be a nasty bad actor.

We survived that the last term and came out the other side.

Um and the only lawsuits were filed were by that person.

So I would just say I don't have big big concerns about that.

I do think there would be a process, not unlike the ones that we've undergone where we do get advisement, like HR law says you don't ask about these things, and we get like a little briefing ahead of time.

We've also kind of had designated committees where the people on the committees in their day jobs have more of an HR lens, so they're the the council designees that then bring the full recommendation, and they often have happened in a four o'clock meeting, so it's not this you know, kind of sensationalized process.

Um anyway, I think since we're giving ourselves at least till July or August to continue to talk about these things, we can certainly dig into them a bit more.

Um I have Counselor Bush and then did you have your hand up, Counselor Bingel?

Okay.

Oh Mark and do you have an announcement on April 1st about your name?

No one's sure.

Is it officially been changed?

That's what they chose for me.

I would like a fiscal impact on all of these.

I I still kind of question putting doing a charter change on things that have future implications on future budgets.

So I think we really need to fully understand every penny that it's going to cost to do every one of these things for me.

Okay.

From from just a staffing standpoint, how do we go about getting that information?

Um, well, part of it, like on some of them that are more programmatic.

We would need an understanding of the positions that would be required, and then we have budget projections for different levels of positions.

That would obviously be an estimate.

Um, or that would be if other communities have that programmatic look.

Um for things like longevity and the SPI, we would probably need to rely on city finance and maybe even have some information from departments based on where people are in their careers, actual air projections.

Um the counselor salary, we would just we would just need to know what the number is, and then I don't know that there is besides uh the logistics and operational considerations on the department heads.

I don't know if that one has a financial analysis.

So the sponsors of the charter amendments should work with staff to come up with some sort of fiscal impact.

I don't know if we have a format, we've it's not required, so we don't have like an actual format that we submit with our charter amendments in a very formal way, like you can see at the same time.

Okay.

Thank you for that, Counselor Bush.

Counselor Bingle.

Yeah, I I always try and be transparent to all y'all as much as I can.

So I only have an issue with two of these, and I just want to be very transparent.

The SPI one I do have a want to make sure about the economic impact and the compounding potentially that we could be creating ourselves for ourselves and putting ourselves in a financial because you guys had a very robust back and forth about that, and that's challenging to me when two people who've been really involved in the budget don't agree, and when you have that disagreement, that's a challenge for me.

So I want to make sure we're very clear about that so that we're not creating a financial burden on ourselves that we didn't intend in language, and then the other one, and I you guys know my background.

Um, I've always been open publicly in oversight.

Uh to me, the mayor, the public safety commissioner and the chief of police are the oversight.

Um if I can't trust the mayor, can't trust the public safety commissioner, and I can't trust the police chief.

We need to get rid of them, right?

Uh the mayor has the ability to hire and fire the police chief as his discretion.

Same thing with the public safety commissioner.

They're responsible for the culture and the policies and the day-to-day operations.

Um I would kind of like to see what your proposal looks like as an ABC where it has a public agenda, it has a different um control and oversight and what that looks like, and that everybody in the city collectively is responsible in uh creating some sort of advice advisory on policy or whatever they may see.

Um as I said, this isn't about anybody's per anybody personally, so I hope you don't take this personal.

This is just something that you know, I've served in this capacity, and I know what these people do every day.

And so from my experience, we have people who are responsible for this, and we can't trust them, then they shouldn't be sitting with ourselves.

So, like I said, I want to be transparent to all.

Thank you.

Counselor Lakin.

Um, I I was just listening to Councilor Bellis talk about the confirmation process, and just I think her points are right on, you know, what are the politics, yeah.

Political elements, how do we say that words?

Yeah, because it's closed.

Well, that I can't say okay.

We're thinking it.

I started it and then I was like, I don't think I can spell my brain right now.

Um but I've been involved in some things where uh I've I've been asked, and some of us others have been asked um to sit on a panel and help make the selection.

Um there's that becomes political in and of itself.

This will be a little bit different because the mayor will go through that process and then send down a person for us to consider.

Um I don't know what the best practice is, like if there was one ideal solution that was out there, and I I think I want to give the mayor the ability to pick his or her team to the greatest extent possible, but a check and balance is fine.

That's what we would be inserting a check and balance, but is there a two-thirds majority that's necessary in order to keep that person from moving along?

Or like a certain majority for a denial or something, that's interesting.

Is there is there just a different level of standard where it's less likely to be political on our side?

That's interesting.

Um I don't know what's out there.

So maybe we can have somebody on council staff work around and get us.

Well, they may not they may have looked at it from that perspective.

I don't know.

I'm just entering this conversation, just having listened to Kelsi Bellis' uh questions about that, and it made me start thinking about is there a better way to do it and still be involved in the process.

Yeah, so just throwing that up.

Yeah, I think um when you talk about legislative and executive balance of power, it's very natural for our constituents to see what happens or should be happening at the state and federal levels, and I think they automatically expect that we have that.

So to your point earlier, there is change over with administrations, but it's not like full clearing, right?

So many of these are civil service positions that go beyond a lot of terms.

But that's also why when there's changes, it's especially when you're in charge of a really big budget and a lot of staffing, you know, yeah, there can be um a trickle-down effect.

I think one level of value that we add, especially for people who have been here for a little while.

You don't have to be here for 14 years, you have to be here for two years.

But we do work with department heads because that is our conduit to the rest of that person's team and staff.

That's the way it's supposed to be anyway.

Um so the insight that we can provide during that process may be really helpful because you know, there is every once in a while a person who who may need our input.

For sure, especially if a new administrator is coming in and saying, Oh, well, that person's next in line.

Right.

Well, that that doesn't make that person.

Well, and a lot of the best person.

Yeah, the department head positions are very forward-facing with constituents, right?

Right.

Sure, yeah.

So but we're but we're their voice, and you know, to the constituents, we us and the mayor are the voice, and so we've talked about this before.

Most people are not gonna call mayor unless they already know how to, you know, get to the front of the line.

They're gonna reach out to us, and we've seen it happen over the last few years with with changes that have come up.

Counselor Holler Harper.

Uh yeah, I just wanted to make a comment or a couple of correction on one of the statements you made.

Um Chief Larson is civil service protector, and you say that they work at the pleasure of the mayor.

As far as I know, that the mayor has the mayor not have the ability to was changed, it was at one point, but that that's a civil service protected position.

But he doesn't have to be chief, does he?

I mean, he's still he still still could be in the police department.

Right.

No, the position, the civil service protector, most of the department had positions are civil service, but DPD has not always been at one time.

You said at the pleasure of the mayor.

It was that was the case for a lot a lot of years, but that was more recently changed.

Is that the case?

Can the can the mayor not discretionarily decide because it is a civil service position for cause.

For cause.

Okay, but yeah, yeah.

So you know, but I wouldn't go my whole life, yeah.

That'd be very difficult.

I would assume that the mayor would have cause in order to replace that.

Yeah, that cheap.

I think it's also important.

Is the question?

Yeah.

Right.

I think it's important to really look at this proposal.

With the community, you know, those things that are important.

Yeah.

No, it has to be a legal cause.

And if that doesn't exist, then they can so they don't work.

You mentioned at the pleasure of the pleasure.

If I misspoke.

And so I do work in government.

That's one of the things that's one of the just the aspects of government.

It is very difficult to be dismissed.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And I just do stuck.

So there's a red small problem.

Since we're taking more time to really consider these, I really would like to encourage those of you who are having heartburn over the proposal to read it.

It is not what was proposed before.

It is not just for police.

It is for all public safety and a broader definition to even include animal services, the municipal court, you know, we had conversations today about prosecute prosecutorial discretion.

This would be more broadly based.

And also, while I appreciate that this administration had the foresight to establish a commissioner of public safety that is at the pleasure of the mayor, it's not codified as civil service.

So it doesn't necessarily have to continue on.

Nor do I think if you read the concept of what the director of an office of independent review would do, it's not the same job.

So it doesn't mean it couldn't become the same job, but right now, as it exists, it's not the same job, and the very minimal that I understand about the reorganization of the citizen advisory board is also not oversight.

So I think once we get that ordinance, we'll be able to see that.

Um this is an ongoing conversation, and I and since we're all being transparent with each other, it's not gonna go away.

The demand for oversight is not going away.

When we keep activating millions of dollars in settlements, the citizens are not going to say oh that's okay, especially as the conversation around ad valorum is heated up and I have questions about how we would even afford these things.

Um the way no deal.

Right.

You're not spending intelligently and fiscally responsible now.

So why should we even consider increases in tax?

But right now, I mean this issue.

But even the individuals that you would appoint to these positions could be politicalized as well.

I think in a government process, you'll never not have some sort of whatever influence.

I'm trying to be as agnostic about what I can, but I I also know how people are I think the takeaway that I would leave you with is if you look at the sales tax overview committee, it's one of our most powerful committees in terms of influence of oversight of how they dig into the data.

They have subcommittees, those of you who have served on it know how intense it is, and they come before us every month with a report and flag things for us.

They also sometimes, right or wrong, make criticism of certain department heads for maybe encouraging us to go look because they didn't feel like they got the all the information.

And if you just look at sales tax overview committee, it does not it's not loaded with controversy the way oversight is being proposed over public safety.

Public safety is our number one investment, it's our number one charge when we swear our oath.

And so if we can do it for sales tax, which is also a huge commitment on our part and responsibility.

Um I understand all the reasons why people are worried about it.

We would not certainly be the first city in Oklahoma to undertake this, nor the nation.

So it sounds like a lot more education needs to happen around it of what it is and what it is not.

Um but uh that's why I said I like it's a lot there.

True.

And I will also just raise a parallel that right now in um emergency response, they have oversight with the medical director.

So these models of like independent oversight exist in the in the ecosystem we're already in.

It's just for whatever reason, and we don't need to retread the water.

Um there's a lot of fear or misunderstanding or just outright disinformation around what this would and what not do.

But um having been a new counselor when GT Biden proposed it, I thought it was a good idea then.

Some of us at this table worked on it, couldn't establish it by ordinance, pivoted to a charter amendment approach the last few go rounds at any time the mayor can do it by executive order.

We could go back to an ordinance approach, not unlike um, you know, we're seeing here from some colleagues.

Uh the citizens can organize a petition initiative.

We know the the strengths and weaknesses that come with that approach as well.

So I do think we need to stay in dialogue.

I think there's a lot of research around it.

I would encourage you all to look at the work that we did on the transparency and accountability um working group out of the the quality indicator work for justice.

And um, you know, at this point, when it was first proposed, I don't think any municipalities in Oklahoma had anything like it.

Now we know for sure Sand Springs does and Oklahoma City.

So again, we can look and see what they've put in and how they've negotiated to get to something that their community feels good about.

Um but I'll just say whether I'm on this at this table or just Lori Citizen, it will be an ongoing conversation until we address it and stop um voting to activate millions of dollars in you know, civil rights violations.

And I'm not pointing that at our TPD.

The more recent ones have been, but our fire department has issues too that lead to big lawsuits that we don't need.

And I do think um I think Counselor Bush says, you know, we're kind of the 311 agents out in the grocery stores and the banks and the parks.

Um so really the things that come through, whether it's I feel like an ACO was a little too aggressive, I feel like a code enforcement official was not being respectful.

I mean, we hear these things when they get to a level where one of our constituents feels comfortable reaching out.

But that always begs the question.

We've had this conversation in some of the other work we're doing.

What about all the ones that that haven't reached out that just let it go or just feel disenfranchised or there isn't a way?

I know it wasn't treated right, but I don't have a a mechanism.

So it's a broader conversation as it's proposed in this, and we can continue to refine it and bring more people in.

I don't think we'll ever get to 100%, but I feel like if Sand Springs and Oklahoma City can get there, and s cities across the country already have.

Um it's a risk mitigation approach and it's a citizen focused approach.

Um which I think we all at the end of the day want to respect our neighbors and you know give them the pathways to make the government work better for them in in every way that we can imagine.

So I mean we are accountable to the citizens.

We are sure our boss.

Yeah.

So you know, we really have to.

Yeah.

So counselor Archie's gone.

Are there any more questions on item number four that we need to tackle today?

Counselor Holly Harper, did you get everything said you needed to?

Yeah.

Okay.

You you've we reiterated it already, but it has to be and I do think since we're giving ourselves more runway, um, you know, it is a good idea to revisit some of those equality indicator benchmarks and see where we're at and how we're measuring out with investment versus outcomes, because certain recommendations definitely got a lot more investment than others.

Um and I would just for anyone watching at home advocates.

I know it's tiring to continue to come before us, but it's necessary.

Um, and it shouldn't always be reactionary, right?

One more question.

Do we know what the cost to stand that up?

Stand with employees would be so in 2019.

Um, if you go back to the mayor council budget retreat.

Oh, you know you can't use 2019 that's not my only point of reference right now.

Um then Mayor Bynum asked for a two hundred five hundred thousand dollar office, but a 250,000 seed, right?

Because it takes a long time to stand something up.

Right.

So that's it was about a $500,000 ask in 2019 to your point.

Nothing initial.

Yeah, to stand it up.

I think we could look at the mayor's office of children, family, and youth from a staffing standpoint.

We have a director and maybe like some administrative support, of course, that comes with a much bigger price tag for all this programmatic stuff, but I'm just talking about staffing.

Um, but we can certainly look and I mean Oklahoma City just stood something up.

We can look and see what they budgeted for it.

I do think it's important to go back and look at the amount of money that has been spent on litigation and settlements when we're factoring in these costs.

But you could still be in that in that laundry even with this.

Yeah, there will be a budgetary impact, but again, same thing with longevity pay, same thing with these other things we're talking about.

It's an investment at an outcomes costing yourself twice.

That's my no, you should not have as many lower cost to do that.

You can't control you can't control individual situations, they're very fluid.

And so that's the issue for me is.

I think we should also then bring to the table we're a litigious society.

Yes, but we can look at the data for cities that have oversight and how there's been a shift in all manner of things.

Yeah, attraction, retention, workforce on that side of it, right?

Because there's a reputation issue we've talked about it.

Absolutely.

We will be hard to literally not be the first, second, nor third city to do it at this point.

Um, so uh blazing blinds.

Yeah, and just to this civilians, I'll say who this is an important issue for them, which is why we keep bringing it up.

Um, you know, keep making your case, and there's always an option to organize a citizens' petition initiative, which we know has led to big changes in our charter over the years.

The mayor could do an executive order to do that.

A lot of options.

Lots of options to the destination.

Yeah.

That's the problem.

Right.

But I guess I just want to say I don't see the cop the conversation around independent oversight somehow magically going away.

If anyone was hoping for that.

Um anything else on the agenda for today, then is he seeing that we'll adjourn and we'll get right back at four o'clock.

Thank you.