Get to that level and needing that water for cooling at that same piece.

But we are looking at it.

I don't see foresee any sites necessarily in the city of Winston-Salem that would uh fit for that.

The power need is so high that there's very few opportunities for that.

And it is a tough conversation because they bring significant capital investment most of the time with a B in the capital investment for opportunities for tax growth, but you have to weigh how much of the water usage it would require.

We don't have a project at this very moment to bring forth for consideration, but they are looking around and they have looked throughout for Scythe County, but not I don't believe we've had a specific large data center use in the our inquiry in the city of Winston-Salem, yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

Wins.

Keep keep up good work, keep bringing us projects, and we're ready to do.

Great.

Thank you so much for your time.

Thank you for leading in this space.

I know we get to do that that front facing, but it wouldn't wouldn't be possible without your investments into this.

And you do have great staff members across the departments that we we meet weekly and monthly together with that are fantastic.

So Mr.

Mayor, thank you so much.

Thank you, Mr.

Owens.

All right.

I I did forget to recognize our Sergeant at Arms, Corporal Curtis Dawkins.

Corporal, thank you for being with us today as well.

Um we'll go to the consent agenda, which is comprised of items uh of all four uh committees.

Items that are pulled from the consent agenda today will be presented during that section of our discussion today.

There'll be no discussion of the these items unless the council members say request.

Uh I know Councilmember Taylor wishes to pull item C2.

Are they any other items?

Vote for approval of the consent agenda.

Second.

Thank you.

Motion by Mayor Pro Team, second by Council Merhal.

All those in favor of the consent agenda, please say aye.

Aye.

Anyone opposed, no, and that is unanimous.

All right, now we will uh go to the uh individual um items.

I will go to the general committee first, and uh soon we'll take that uh consent item that we just pulled off.

So uh go ahead to first items.

Item C2 request for a public hearing on an ordinance ordering the demolition and removal of a structure at 1135 Argonne Boulevard, located in the Southeast Ward.

Councilmember Taylor.

Thank you, Mayor.

May I approach members of the council.

We have an opportunity here to uh for purchase and a rehab.

It'd be my motion today just to delay this item for 30 days uh to allow this process to take place and then we'll revisit at that time.

Very good.

I move for approval.

Second.

Before you vote on that, if I could ask Councilman Taylor if he would just do that to April 13th, which is the next general government committee.

No, but I would definitely include that in ask that it be included in the okay.

The motion is to continue this to April 13th.

Uh to the next general government committee.

Next general government committee uh and uh second council member Scipio second to that.

Seconded it.

All those in favor of that motion to continue this item, please.

Um we voting uh electronically, electronically, uh yes, anyone opposed, no.

And that is unanimous.

Thank you, Councilmember Taylor.

All right, I'll turn the meeting now over to our general government committee chair, uh, Mayor Pro Tim Adams.

Thank you, Mayor.

Uh, we have three items on the general government committee uh agenda.

And will the clerk please call for the first item?

Update on Winston Lake Golf Course renovation and improvements.

Good afternoon, Mayor, Mayor Pro Tim Adams, members of uh city council.

Uh in 2023, uh would you give your name and title, please?

Yes, uh William Royston Recreation and Parks Director for the City of Winston-Salem.

Uh in 2023, the uh Recreational Parks Department contracted with Richard Mandel golf course golf architecture to reform a bit to perform a uh a business plan, put together a business plan um and approach to making improvements at Winston Lake Golf Course.

Uh this item is for uh Richard Mendele to present those items to you.

It will accept any questions um at the conclusion.

Thank you.

Good afternoon.

My name is Richard Mandel.

I'm a president of Richard Mandel Golf Architecture.

Um and I present to you not necessarily the full uh report the results of our report that we did a few years ago, but the uh most pressing needs that we've all witnessed on the golf course.

Um we've done course walkthroughs with golfers, non-golfers, city staff, uh Mississippi, and I rode the car together a while back.

It was a little colder then than it was today, so that's nice that it's not as cold today.

Want to get right into the greens.

The greens at Winston Lake Golf Course are the number one problem at Winston Lake Golf Course, and they have been for many, many years.

And my my cover sheet, my cover picture there just shows you the quality of those greens.

A little history about the greens, about the golf course.

The first nine holes at Winston Lake were built in 1956, and the second nine were built in 1964.

The greens themselves are built of what we call push-up construction, which is literally existing soil literally pushed up and formed into putting services.

That existing soil is red clay, as I'm sure you guys are all aware in Winston Salem.

These greens have survived for 60 plus years, despite being composed of heavy soils that are just not conducive to quality putting green services.

So from day one, Winston Lake was behind the eight ball just because of the soils, no other reason.

The four primary things that greens need for survival or for to thrive, air circulation, sunlight, water, and drainage.

Now, what's out at Winston Lake?

Air circulation.

It was built on a completely wooded piece of property, lack of air on day one.

Sunlight, built on a completely wooded piece of property, lack of sunlight as well.

So when the woods are there, the air can't flow, and obviously no sun.

Water.

Red clay retains water.

Now, greens need water for survival, but too much water will drown grassroots.

And so that red clay retains too much water for successful grass to grow, uh, creating poor growing conditions from the start.

And then finally, drainage.

Uh it they need water, but they also need to drain.

And that same red clay that retains the water obviously isn't draining either.

So four strikes against the greens at Winston Lake, primarily because of the site that it sits on.

Now, about 15 to 20 years ago now, the Allied Associations of Golf, the uh golf course builders association, the golf course superintendents association, United States Golf Association, et cetera, all did a study to determine how long golf course features can last.

And it's a very uh very objective number that we could put on things.

And what we have here are the age of the golf course features at Winston Lake Golf Course.

Uh the middle column is how old these features are, and the right side column in parentheses are the years that the study showed how long these features last.

In this case, red is not good.

So you can see a lot of those features have far outlasted their life cycles.

Um tea boxes, sand bunkers, uh, and putting greens anywhere from 60 to 70 years for the putting greens that should only last about 15 to 30 years.

So they're almost twice as long as their life uh expectancies.

Now, I mentioned to you earlier that the greens are push-up greens.

What we recommend for the greens at Winston Lake Golf course is what we call a modified USGA green.

And that's uh a quick uh sort of a uh a detail of what that is.

And so what that is is in the subsurface we put drain tile in, and we put gravel on top of that, and then 12 inches of greens mix for optimal growing conditions and even distribution of irrigation and drainage.

Uh it's much different than the um clay soils that they sit on right now.

So the reason we like to use modified USJ greens is two things.

Um even watering and even drainage.

So there aren't hot spots or wet spots on the greens.

Okay.

And so how you determine that is percolation rate.

And the percolation rate, and this is as technical as I'm gonna get, I promise.

Percolation rate is the rate at which water moves through the green from top to bottom, passing through the greens mix, which is the sandy soil, the gravel, and the drainage down to the ground.

Now, properly built greens require a percolation rate of between 10 to 20 inches per hour in order to keep water from getting stuck in the green profile and resulting in grassroots not sitting in wet conditions.

When grassroots are forced to live in constantly wet conditions, they sort of rely on them and they can't really thrive on their own.

And so the moment uh drought happens, those green are those green grasses and roots aren't capable of survival.

So we want 10 to 20 inches of percolation rate.

The greens at Winston Lake are at five inches of percolation rate.

So that's a big challenge.

And that all and that really describes to you why the greens at Winston Lake have suffered from its inception, really.

No matter how much how talented your golf course superintendent and his staff are, and they are good, they can overcome certain natural things.

So when I was first hired, we did a uh uh what William mentioned a renovation business plan.

And the first thing I said to everyone was it it's a waste of everybody's time and money to do anything on the golf course before we improve the tree situation, and everybody bought into that, and we cleared about 50 acres of trees, and you can see up here on this slide the before and afters of a couple holes and how much more open the golf course is.

And I I really applaud the city and everyone involved in that decision because that's the right thing to do before you spend any other money on it.

So how did that do?

That gave us two greens, now we only have two reds.

Air circulation, much better because it's wide open.

Sunlight, much better because it's not wooded anymore, but we still have the red clay and the and the water and drainage issues still exist.

So we recommend that you rebuild all of your greens construct greens, and we have uh updated a cost estimate.

Our original renovation business plan report was done back in late 2024.

And we've in the last few weeks updated our cost estimates and to rebuild all 19 greens, you have 18 plus a practice green, it will cost roughly 3.8 million dollars.

So that's the number one reason why we're here just to update you on what my opinion of the next best step for Winston Lake golf course is for those that you're interested, total construction cost for the whole golf course is 11.5 million dollars.

Um this is not the most recent um presentation that we that we have.

Do you have the uh yeah?

So there's more to my presentation that's not showing up here.

Um but so let me just catch up here and say we've got a $3.8 million project for all the greens, we have an $11.5 million cost for the whole golf course.

So, what does the that get you?

You you you get the greens, you also get new T complexes, new card path, new irrigation system, new grasses throughout the whole golf course.

And so um it's up to how the city wants to move forward with things.

Um let me uh let me just back up and I had a film that presentation was a little old, so I apologize for that.

Um just a second to catch up and make sure I haven't missed anything.

Okay.

So I showed you the greens on back up and just go to the the greens at 3.8 million.

So as you think about the golf course and Winston Lake golf course and what to do next, um I want to the question should be asked what are the goals of the city for Winston Lake golf course.

And the team we we talked about that and discussed that over and over the last few years through our renovation business plan process and in recent meetings.

And here are the five goals that I see would be great for the city as it relates to Winston Lake Golf Course.

Number one, preserve the heritage and legacy of Winston Lake Golf Course.

It's an integral part of your city.

Improve the playability of the golf course.

Stop repetitive maintenance repairs and start golf course management.

The greens have been banded for years, and you have spent money bandating those greens for years, knowing that they're not gonna solve everything.

And so your maintenance staff is stuck playing survival mode more so than actually managing your golf course.

Um then another goal should be updated infrastructure that lasts for decades.

If I show you that slide that had all those golf course features and how the age of those golf course features, there was a lot of red.

And in this case, red is bad.

I say that because I'm a Georgia Bulldog, so red is always good.

That's another story.

But red is bad, right?

Um lot of your features are far past the life expectancy.

So that's goal number four.

Goal number five is the ability to compete with golf courses on a level playing field.

Um here we are.

Let me here we are, right up here.

Um the city's been challenged with trying to provide a great amenity for all its citizens at Winston Lake, but without putting any of the investment into it that it requires.

So it's always at a it's always at a deficit and fighting with other golf courses that have more money already put into them.

So I showed you the the 3.8 million dollars for the greens, and now I'm gonna say that's the question.

The next question is um are rebuilding the greens enough.

What does the city get with an entire new golf course?

Number one, number one is that fifth goal, the ability to thrive on an even playing field.

You get new putting greens, new grasses that are more disease resistant, pest resistant, and heat tolerant.

Improved drainage throughout the golf course, not just with the greens.

New wall-to-wall car paths, new irrigation system, and tea shot distance equity with bigger T's to spread out wear and tear.

Relocating T's on each hole will allow all golfers of all talent levels to experience golf the same way.

So um, so that's why when I bring up uh uh and show you this number here of 11 and a half million dollars, you get uh obviously it's a lot more than a 3.8 for the greens, but you also get a lot more for your golf course, and you put yourself in a position to compete, not just on the local level or even a regional level, but a national level as well, and make Winston Lake golf course a destination for golfers.

Uh we uh my firm I I have worked on projects just like Winston Lake and golf courses that were in equal shape to Winston Lake for the cities of Sarasota, Florida, Savannah, Georgia, um uh Dinah, Minnesota, Denver, Colorado, a long list of golf courses where we've been in the same situation and we've completely redesigned it, improved the inst infrastructure, rebuilt the golf courses, and they've made their making money and paying off whatever costs they had to incur for those golf courses.

I know you can do that at this do that here as well.

So that's uh my brief quick um introduction to what we see at Winston Lake right now.

Thank you, Mr.

Mandel.

Again, this is for information.

Uh if you have not taken the time to read uh all of the attachments, which I did more than two or three times.

I was even sending emails to staff over the weekend.

Um it's a lot.

Uh I tell people I don't just play at golf, I play golf.

Uh I love Winston Lake.

I've been working on Winston Lake or advocating for it uh since 1995.

And when I got on the city council, it became one of my passions.

Uh when you talk about the tree removal, you have no idea how much grief I got for wanting to remove the trees.

Uh that's because I understood airflow and its importance because I'm a gardener also, uh, to growing.

Uh the the price tag, I already figured that would be like what it is.

Uh golf courses are expensive, especially when you're trying to preserve a course as old as Winston Lake.

Um I don't know.

I'm gonna take a few comments from this uh committee and the council, but again, this is information, and I would hope that you would pass on whatever your requests or whatever the staff, because we only got two hours, and we already in a half hour, even though the mayor and you guys got my time on the intro of the committee of the home.

But uh questions and comments.

I'm gonna take the mayor.

This question is from Mr.

King, actually.

Um King wants to know what kind of grass you'll put back on the greens Bermuda.

Well, for Mr.

King's knowledge, we'll just leave it at green grass.

It'll be a uh uh Bermuda hybrid um either champion Bermuda or Tiff Eagle.

Thank you.

Make great progress is good to have another bulldog in a room too.

All right, good dogs.

Speak for yourself, council member Scipio and then Councilman Jorner.

Thank you uh for this report.

Um Mr.

Mandel.

I was the one that needed to be convinced because I don't play golf, but the golf course had been part of my existence since I was a child, and the golfers had told me about the trees, they loved them, and I did not uh I I resisted taking the trees down until our ride, until you showed me what that golf course looked like in 1956 with the aerial view, and it really showed me how negligent our city had been with that golf course over the many years it's been there, and now the trees are gone, and what a spectacular golf course it looks like.

And now the trees are gone, and what a spectacular golf course it looks like.

Um it is so beautiful now that we see the green, the fairways coming back, and it looks like a golf course and not a beautiful park, uh, which it was getting to look like with all the trees.

Um I just want to commend um Mr.

Royston and his vision and its leadership in getting through the tree removal, but more importantly, having someone who's managing that park with such enthusiasm.

Um that's Mr.

Fletcher.

Um he's done a remarkable job with the staff and keeping it going with just the changes with the uh trees as well as some of the other things he's brought to it.

Um and I want us to recognize that when you neglect things for over 50 years, you get what you get.

And uh somehow we really need to make a commitment to Winston Lake Golf Course to bring it up to the caliber course that it needs to be and should be and should have been.

Um there are many people who still love it dearly, and I know it has great potential to be an asset to our community as well as a revenue generator.

Thank you, Kim.

Councilman Jorner.

Thank you, Mayor Pur Tim.

The golf course looks amazing from where it came from, um, just from pictures and that kind of thing.

And I know that there were lots of different components to the plan to get us to where we are now.

One of them being the driving range.

Where are we on that part?

So um I'm not actually that project is not part of my purview.

But they call and talk to me about it.

So I can't really specifically say where we are, but I'll let William give you an update on that.

Good afternoon, Councilman Jordan.

I can provide an update on the driving range, uh, which is a great, this is a great time to do so.

Um, we currently have funding uh to replace the there's one pole on the driving range net that needs to be replaced.

Um we have the funding to replace that pole as well as the driving range net.

Um we also have a ball dispenser that we'll be uh rolling out sometime in April once we get Caitlin back and we find an adequate place for it.

Um but there were some issues with uh sprigging the driving range last summer.

Um the contractor wasn't performing the work for our standards.

I work with my assistant director, uh, Ms.

Owens, uh, as well as myself.

Uh she put together a plan to get the project to complete the work using our staff, uh, which we did, and so we're hopeful that and believe that the golf course will open um as soon as we're able to get the get the net um installed, so it should be this year.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

Mandel.

Looking forward to more updates from parks and recs.

Uh I can say that Mr.

Royston, and I'm doing it publicly, I need to be kept updated because this is showing up on the agenda.

We needed it.

I kept asking.

You cannot have a project like this, and the committee that it comes to only gets it again, Mr.

Uh Pate, when it's time to come.

I need to be meeting with you regularly on anything, like I tell people, council members don't like to be blindsided.

And uh I've again, I'd want to thank Mr.

King who had to take this project under his wing a few years ago just to get it moving, because we were not making any money, Mr.

Manny.

We weren't making anything, we were losing money.

Right.

And the the condition of the golf course needed somebody to own it.

And I I believe that if you don't own whatever your real estate or your business or your process, then what are you doing?

Because now you don't you're not managing it, and it's just kind of hanging on.

And that's what was happening at Worcester Lake.

So, Mr.

King, uh, I want to thank you and your staff uh for bringing it.

Uh everything kind of to fruition, whether it was when we were meeting about the trees, or when we were meeting about the golf course and security, meeting about the staff, meeting about the cars.

Uh there were meetings going on all along, and I asked Mr.

King, I need a PGA professional.

You know, one that's trained under the compliance of the USGA.

We also needed some other things to happen, but I do feel like management is at the top of the the chart.

You cannot have a successful anything if the project is not managed.

So I thank Kaylin for coming.

Uh I thank all the new employees that's out there who are giving their all in all.

But again, there is much still to be done with this.

Uh I always ventured it as seeing it like uh Augusta, you know, with the dogwoods and all of the different trees and things we had.

And Mr.

Mandel, I know you know this course was a jewel back in the day, but it was built for African Americans during a time when segregation was king.

And therefore, a lot of it that it didn't get that Reynolds Park got.

So it's gonna be an uphill battle because right now, municipalities across the country, we are not being funded at most levels for anything like this, because this is not considered a necessity, but we also know, as you said, and I've said destination locations are the key now to tourism and people coming to your city.

So to have a jewel like this, I see it as we're building to the future to create a golf course along with Reynolds Park that are municipally owned, that we can market and bring people here to our city along with all the other variables that we have.

Again, thank you.

I look forward to to talking with you in the future and Mr.

Royce, and thank you so much.

Thank you.

And you all contact me anytime you want with any questions, and uh I appreciate your time.

And just in closing, you do have a fantastic piece of property, and the city we're you're either gonna be in the golf business at Winston Lake or not, and now's the time to move forward with something.

So thank you very much.

Thank you.

Uh with the clerk call the next.

Item two, information regarding proposed issuance of requests for proposals for the disposition of four city-owned multifamily properties.

Mr.

Blair.

Good afternoon, Mayor Joins, uh, Mayor Pretem Adams.

Um council members.

Uh this is just a informational item for some city-owned rental properties that we would like to put out for a request for qualifications.

It's not really a request for proposals.

But um those properties are Plaza Apartments, uh 800 North Spring, 1200 Willie Davis Drive, 1635 Cleveland Avenue.

And just to give you an idea, 1200 uh Willie Davis Drive and 800 North Spring Street are currently part of the current RFP process that that was due uh yes last Friday at 5 p.m.

So these may not end up on the RFQ that we put out.

But I I think from what I've seen, I think it will include these these four properties.

You're totally in about 95 units.

Um they would all be subject to your Affordable Housing Act 2-9, the ordinance.

Um, but I think that because of the um uh populations that they serve and currently serve, there would be a process that would go through to make sure that no one is displaced and somebody else taking ownership of the properties over a period of time.

So um if anybody has any questions about that or why we're doing this, um I'd be happy to try to address that.

I believe there are a lot of questions.

Fantastic.

But again, this was brought uh as to let everybody know what's going on.

Uh I'm gonna take a few questions, but this is information of uh what we need to be looking at.

Uh the city, as much as people would like to think that we have these bottomless pits of money buckets everywhere.

We don't.

And uh we got into this business even back in the 90s, early 80s, maybe, uh, to help foster some things that weren't happening again in the African American community.

I'm gonna go ahead and and uh Councilmember Burke uh has a question.

Councilmember Bowen, next.

Thank you, Mayor Pro Tim.

Uh this question is for the city manager, and I've already asked it privately, and I've already made phone calls.

I uh heard that the city had put out an RFP to sell 1200 Willie Davis Drive.

When I got that call, I told the person, no, that can't be.

We're not selling that property.

And when I called, I found out that we had put out an RFP.

And so how did that happen without council having that conversation and uh voting that we wanted to put an RFP out to sell Willie Davis.

That's that's the first question I I'll I'll take this for for Michael on on this one.

Uh all the project all the properties that the city has that's a set that's set aside for affordable housing is a part of the program that y'all have established to put those out to other uh entities to try to preserve those as affordable housing sites.

So this uh presentation was supposed to take place before uh anybody was out there, and so we we did get cart before the horse a little bit on that one, but uh it is coming back to council now to look at these parcels.

Um we've had individual conversations on a variety of these uh parcels in the past and have talked about having the the necessity to find someone that can take on management and hopefully ownership of these properties to maintain them in a way that council wants them to be maintained.

So the uh and and again we talked a lot more about plaza apartments and Spring Street as ones that we were putting out there.

Uh Willie Davis Drive and Cleveland Avenue are the two other projects that the city owns.

So the the intent is to put out all of those.

We'll get back potentially request from individuals of their qualifications.

We'll review those.

They will come back to council.

This is a preliminary.

Nothing that the city owns can be sold without council approval of those.

So again, we're following a process going through as we've established for our affordable housing program that allows individuals to express interest and to put a proposal together back to council on these properties like they would any of the other properties that we currently own, and you've designated as affordable housing.

Uh thank you for that response.

Again, just like Mayor Pro Temp said earlier, uh council members don't like to be blindsided.

And I was blindsided when I was approached uh with that uh information.

Um I just want to be clear on a statement that you made uh when you uh initially started.

You said we have not put a RFP out on these properties.

This is a request for qualifications.

There there was an RFP put out on Willie Davis.

Oh no.

What what I was referring to is properties going forward.

Umperty that would be sold would be, especially if it's an affordable property, would be a request for qualifications.

It would not be a request for proposals.

I mean, we want to have entities that know how to manage affordable housing, and that's a specialty.

That's not your typical property management.

I'm sure you're probably aware of the different groups that can do that sort of work, but also that can know how to refinance and to uh rehabilitate, bring up and keep to a good standard for the third-year period.

So again, it it's uh for for the existing properties, it's more of a request for qualifications.

And actually, what we put out was a notice of funding um uh opportunity and an RFQ uh for city properties at the time, which was done at the beginning of the month.

The last thing I want to say is I've made a lot of phone calls, had a lot of conversations, especially with the manager, and I've expressed my concerns.

My number one concern goes back to what we all as council members said uh was a priority for us, our unhoused.

And I don't want us to make a decision or to vote to do something with the properties that we own that might cause the tenants, the current tenants, to become part of the unhoused.

Thank you.

Councilman Scott Bowen.

Thank you, ma'am, uh Mayor Pratem.

Um so you you kind of hinted at it a few times um about the reasons why I've had conversations with city staff of the reasons why, but I think the public needs to know the uh have an understanding of the reason why.

Could you just share why we're looking at these properties and uh moving forward for what we're looking to do?

Well, I don't want to speak for the manager, but I think the general idea is that that the city is not really uh well equipped to be a property owner like that.

Um the property management groups that we have working on these properties um aren't necessarily interested in taking over these properties.

So um one of the things I was certainly looking at is making it a portfolio to try to encourage again large affordable housing groups that know how to manage these types of properties to bring them in for some sort of uh transition or of that property.

And uh and l let me add just a little bit to that.

Uh as we've talked about from count to I've talked to you individually about the plaza apartments are currently managed by Aspire, our housing authority that's being managed at a loss, and they have told me since I've been here that they cannot continue to do that.

So the housing authority is a separate entity from the city, but this one was is wrapped in and them doing the we are we still have ownership, but they're managing it.

So we we have to come up with a solution to deal with uh those that property.

The Spring Street property was always supposed to be sold to a third party.

We were only supposed to be the intermediaries that were helping out the initial owners that were trying to get out of that property to for cash flow purposes, and then it was going to be turned over.

So that did not happen, and but that's always been there's been continuous efforts to do that uh on those properties.

Again, Willie Davis and Cleveland Avenue are properties that we have owned for a long time.

I think there was some issues in terms of transition with uh some of our staff and and housing and other places, and so but those are also properties that are owned by the city and now have been completely renovated by the city by council approval of funds to do so.

So now is the best opportunity to look at having them put in a place with a professional management company that can take care of the uh leasees in those facilities.

Calce, Mississippi.

Um city manager, and maybe uh Ms.

Contos legally, um it just dawned on me when we as a council approved to sell all of our city properties for affordable housing.

I know I was thinking of just single single lots.

But does that mean these four multi-family units fall into that policy that we agreed to sell city-owned properties for affordable housing?

I would think that would that the ultimate decision would be would be council's decision.

Um in terms of each property it's is a disposition is voted on or is determined individually, so whether or not you would like to place them into a particular pot.

Um the manager.

And I'll help the uh the city attorney out a little bit on this one as well.

For disposition of property, you actually you have two there's one basic option.

The city, the state charter talks about how to dispose of property as council.

And so you can sell any property that we have, including what we're sitting in today.

That's the right of city council as a part of your responsibilities.

So but if you do those on a typical basis, you they're subject to upset bids, you have to get the best price so that it's not there's not a collusion of somebody coming in and underbidding and buying that.

So there's a typical process that goes out for selling properties, and we can follow that process with any property that the city has, and have done that in many occasions.

The county is doing that on a variety of properties right at the moment.

Uh you also saw state legislation with the affordable housing act to give you a second option in terms of selling property, which basically is a non-negotiated, or it's a go negotiated but not subject to upset bid.

So if you designate properties to be a part of our affordable housing program, then that gives you the opportunity to get a request back and then to look at that request and determine whether you think that's in the best interest of the community.

And if you deem it's in the best interest of the community, then you can negotiate or we or have staff to negotiate with the that particular uh developer, owner, property manager, and sell that property without going through an upset bid process.

So that was to lessen the burdens of those folks doing that and the time frame to actually, in this case, to get property that was not being used by the city back into the hands of a private individual that could build affordable housing on it so that people in our community would could have those units to live in.

That help?

It does, but I'm asking when we had that policy uh granted to us from our legislature.

Did these four multifamily units automatically fall under that umbrella?

And therefore, we have already agreed to treat them as such.

No, my understanding is that uh all of the properties that were designated as affordable housing have typically been designated by council for that.

There was a whole process that you went through, and Aaron might be able to describe that better than I can of going through that and identifying which properties would be available and that you felt would make the most sense to do that.

So again, we didn't put parkland on the list.

We own a lot of parkland, but the assumption was we wanted to keep that as parks.

Aaron, anything else you want to know?

Yeah, I'll I'll try to offer a little bit of context on that.

Council Recipi, I think the issue was when we brought that initial map book to council the first time, those were vacant parcels, and the whole purpose of that was essentially those were vacant parcels, and the idea was to create a some capacity to build new affordable housing on since they were vacant and it freed up some barriers to get those back into productive use for affordable housing.

The very first map book packets had some city-owned houses like Graham, um, some of the ones that we've actually sold recently.

So it included some existing structures, not many, but it included some existing structures.

I'll be frank with you, these were not included at that time.

They were on the radar because essentially they already were affordable housing to some degree that was owned by the city.

So it was really two different purposes there, if that makes any sense.

Yes.

So moving forward.

Is it necessary it is necessary for the city council to give direction that these multifamily units would be sold under affordable housing or or not?

Is that something we need to do?

That's correct, Councilman Scipio.

The issue is you've got two options there.

Yeah.

Um and quite honestly, when you did the original one, the Spring Streets weren't even owned by the city at that point in time.

Laza apartments was being managed by a Spire with the assumption that they were going to take ownership of those properties, which they have told us now that they are not going to do.

So in this case, it is we can put those out just as typical as Michael said as an RFQ for qualifications, and people can submit things to us, we can bring you back the best offer, then you can put that out for the community to say, here's the best offer.

Does somebody want to come in and provide a better what they think is a better offer or you define what a better offer is?

If you want to go the route of affordable housing and then put these out and then negotiate with who you think is the best party to take over this, then you would I would suggest that you add those to your affordable housing list and that we do that as a part of that affordable housing process.

Thank you.

I think that again, uh because this is information, this gives staff an opportunity uh Miss Angel Wright Lanier to bring us back what it would look like if we edited or amended the previous affordable housing plan that we voted on to add something like this, because when we did it, we weren't thinking about this scenario.

It was not on our radar.

But one thing again, I I want the public to know.

Uh I know there is no right way to do this, uh, what we're trying to do.

Uh we're trying to do like any other business of trying to ensure whatever assets or properties or people's lives that we impact that we think this through because we would want the properties that we owned to be able to go to people or businesses or organizations that the community also would approve of in retrospect.

Because again, when we got in the business of this, I was on the housing authority commission as the chair uh in the 90s, very early 90s, and we did this because we thought Hood at the time wanted us to do this.

They wanted us to be landlords, they wanted us to get an accumulate reality you know, properties and bring it under the umbrella of HUD of the housing authorities.

And therefore the commission I was on, uh I helped lead the charge on the plaza apartments.

Uh I led the charge on a lot of these properties because this is what the mission was at the time that Hood saw the housing authority becoming.

Then it shifted.

And we all know when that happened.

Hood decided it did not want any more properties.

It did not want to continue the mission as it was 50, 60, 70 years ago.

They wanted out.

They were not any longer wanting to fund municipalities, housing authorities to do this sort of housing.

That's where Crystal Towers, Sunrise, University, all of that started to change.

Cleveland, Piedmont, all of it.

What's the Salem was in the top 25 housing authorities in the country by how many properties we had, Mr.

Clark?

And now we can't afford it.

So what do we do?

We don't have the resources to support and preserve what was a good idea.

So I think the council, well, the staff, not the council.

I think it would be great again if staff brought us some options and choices of how to do this.

I think I've mentioned this.

What are other cities doing?

Because we weren't the only ones buying up properties.

There were other cities doing it as well here in North Carolina and all over.

Uh, so the community can have a chance to be educated as well as the council.

Again, I need the council to keep in mind.

We don't have the resources to preserve to sustain it, to keep it up.

We don't have it.

And I would rather, for me, rather us attempt to do something to make sure that it's of the quality that we envision for the people that live there, our citizens, the residents, versus letting it fall into disarray and nothing happening.

We have some great organizations here in town that are willing to step up just like they did for the school board.

And I think with the community, again, the community and the people that live in these these homes need to be a part of the discussion.

And if that is that, Mr.

City Manager, Mr.

Blair, we thank you for the information, but we look forward to more information and again keeping this council updated on where we are.

And again, not hopefully seeing it come to the agenda, and nobody knows it's coming until it shows up on this, and we get the email from the clerk that is now on our agenda on our iPads.

Thank you so much.

Would the clerk call the next item, please?

Can I make a call?

Item three.

Mr.

Clark, I'm sorry.

Just a couple of disjointed comments.

First off, I do think these are different than the blank property, obviously, because the blank pro the empty property that have houses on it.

And as we know, we have hundreds of pieces of little pieces of land.

Most of them are not buildable, but a lot of them are.

And I I will say so far I've been uh impressed with who was stepped forward.

Um I just got an invitation in the mail the other day for some uh they don't call it groundbreaking.

I think they're calling it a nailing party over at Happy Hills to start putting some boards up, but but that land has been empty since I have been on the council, and we're making progress there.

These are very different, these are actually properties that have houses on our apartments on them.

Uh and how we I know how we acquired the Spring Street because I was here when that took place.

The others, I think we've kind of accumulated over time.

I would simply caution and say, let's just wait and see what happens.

I don't think there's a long list of folks that that are specialist in low-income apartment management, but we'll see.

Uh as we know, the the largest manager of low-income housing, I think, is probably the housing authority, and they don't want plaza because it's it's not their what they do anymore.

Uh, but we'll see what happens there.

But I would I let's not get the cart for the horse.

Let's just see what see who calls you back on this, and then we'll go forward from there.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

City clerk, please call the next item.

Item three, resolution amending Article 2 of the City of Winston-Salem personnel resolution for certified fire personnel based on results of the market study.

And after oh, sorry.

Oh, I'm sorry, I was gonna say who was speaking, but go ahead.

You can do that.

Sorry about that.

So good afternoon, Chair and Void Assistant City Manager.

When Kina is on her way up, um, and Scott, this is gonna be a tag team joint presentation.

Just a little background and context.

Uh we brought the updated fire plan information to you all back in December at committee.

Um, the couple of outstanding items at that time.

We had a recommended pay plan, but we were waiting for our consultant that consult conducted the uh compensation study, uh, Piedmont Triad Regional Council PTRC.

They were gonna be compiling the results of a benefits study, and then we were waiting on implementation recommendations from them.

We just received those last month.

So the majority of what uh Kina will go through in the presentation, a lot of it is recap.

We haven't um we're recommending the same pay plan pay grades that we presented back in December, with just now more updated information on summary of the benefits study and recommended implementation.

So Kina will talk about this as we said in December kind of updating pay grades and updating employee pay are two different things.

So now we've got both pieces of that puzzle.

Um, you'll see we are recognized staff is recommending that we implement this in the current fiscal year prior to July 1, but are looking for some discussion and direction from you all on exactly when that implementation is effective.

So wanted you to have that kind of background before Kena went into the results of the study.

Dr.

Colefield Jones, if you will introduce, which we know, but your title as well.

Thank you.

Dr.

Keena Cofield Jones, Human Resources Director for the City of Winston Salem.

So this afternoon, I'll be going through the presentation.

You've heard the opening comments from ACM Voida, so that kinds of um just brings us to this point.

All right, so this presentation, I'll cover the overview components of the analysis, findings, and observations.

Scott, uh, in conjunction with me with me, we'll go through the budget analysis and then the recommendations.

Piedmont Triad Regional Council PTRC was um conduct had conducted the study, and as ACM Voida shared, have come back with their recommendations, etc.

So we have gone through that and the results of the benefits survey.

The labor market included 19 cities, counties across North Carolina.

Well, in the Raleigh, Greensboro, um, Winston Salem area.

So you'll see that, and those are listed there.

The components of the analysis are the salary range analysis, the actual salary analysis, and then the results of the benefits survey.

The findings and observations.

So before you is the current pay plan for the City of Winston Salem fire pay plan.

PTRC's findings, how we break this pay plan out with military and education.

You see there are three tiers, if you will, that that is unique across the entities that were surveyed and across the state, where we break this out like this.

Um the range to the minimum and the maximum of the salaries, each pay grade was more constrained, meaning it took longer for Winston Salem employees in these particular positions to reach uh the max of those pay plan of the of the pay range, and then there was larger discrepancies in the salary ranges versus the actual salaries themselves.

Findings in our hiring practice and our hiring practices was that Winston-Salem's practice of recognizing education and military was unique from others that were surveyed in the three-tier plan that we have.

Also, our education incentive for associate and bachelor's degree was at least two times higher than what the market than the majority of our market peers.

They ranged um half of those numbers.

And then most employers administer educational attainment at the hiring process, and some of them had a one-time pay for military, where ours is added to their base.

The market analysis, you'll see on this chart.

The firefighter one engineer, captain, battalion chief, the minimum max of the range, and then the percent spread of the range with the market.

Well, Winston Salem's in blue are current, and then the market and then the recommendation.

And the column to the far right are the results compared to market of the minimum and the maximum of the range.

So the average of firefighter one, the actual salaries were four percent below the actual market average.

The average salaries for the engineer, two percent below the market average, captains one percent below the market average.

Those were for actual salaries, and then the BC's battalion chiefs are five percent above actual market average.

In the last column on that chart, you'll see that the ranges were well, I don't necessarily think I need to walk through all of them, but the firefighter one, the range minimum of what is being recommended, one percent above the market, and then on the minimum and six percent above the market on the max, and you'll see that the current range is seven percent below the market.

So each of those um spells out how we compare to the market with our current range and then the recommended ranges.

The summary, which I've just alluded to the current minimum, you'll see those percentages of where we are as of the market, and then the proposed range minimum.

So for instance, fire captain was 94% compared to the market, and with um the recommendation, the minimum would be 102%, which is 2% above the market minimum.

So that's basically how you read that chart.

The average actual salaries for fire are 2.2 percent below average salaries for market comparables, and with the largest variance at the entry level firefighter rank.

The results of the benefit survey out of the 19, we had a quite lengthy benefit survey.

So it took a little while to get the responses, and out of the responses, five of 19 uh responded.

So you'll see those five localities listed at that top row.

On the next one are our non competitive benefits compared to these five respondents.

They have a standalone bereavement policy, the city does not.

Uh, we have we were the only respondent with a 60 mile residency requirement, and then no contributions to the 401k and 457 plans for non-law enforcement employees.

Where we are competitive is the employee employer monthly contributions to our uh medical insurance, the city provides two percent, um 401A for the employer contribution, our group life up to three three times their salaries, the 529 college savings plan, a retention bonus, and then also our tuition reimbursement was about 42 percent above the market average.

We give 4,000 uh a year for our tuition reimbursement.

So those were where we were very competitive or outpaced the market.

And now for the budget analysis, I'm gonna have Scott present this slide.

Thank you, Dr.

Keener.

Good afternoon, Mayor, Mayor Putin, and members of the city council.

So we do have one slide here, we'll walk you through.

Obviously, as you're making changes to the pay plan, and then subsequently also uh to the individuals who are in those, there will be a cost associated with that.

The total annualized cost is just under $2 million, 1.96 million dollars.

I will tell you that is using an estimated benefits rate for next year, so that you are aware of what next year's annualized cost is.

A little bit of budget baseball up front.

We are having some increases potentially in benefits costs.

So wanted to show you what that would look like for next year.

That represents about a four and a half percent increase to the total general fund budget for fire personnel as currently shown in the adopted 26 budget document.

And you will see individual salary increases for uh firefighter level all the way up through battalion chief increasing uh between 4.32 and 9.53 percent to keep them at the range of midpoint that they are.

The table that you see there simply shows how many employees are in each classification, the total adjustments, and then off to the side the average adjustment.

UDC uh see there, the addition of benefits, so about 1.18 million dollars worth of salary, another $534,000 worth of benefits, and then buried with an asterisk into that bottom is also a little bit of an increase to the overtime budget as a result of increasing salaries over time will thereby increase if you use the same number of hours.

Um depending on when you were to uh implement this in the current year would be how much of a budget amendment you would need for the current year.

There was nothing uh adopted in the 26 budget for implementation of this.

So depending on when you wanted to implement it and how many months we would need to bring you forward a budget amendment for the fire department for that.

Um originally tied to this.

If we were looking at uh an April 1st type uh implementation with the first full pay period in April, that number was roughly a half a million dollars.

That would make sense if we're looking at um uh two million dollars annually, a quarter of a year would be about five hundred thousand dollars.

So happy to take any questions you have on the budget side there.

Uh this is the slide I have for you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

All right, so the proposed fire pay plan is the same that you saw in December.

Um so the only change here.

Well, let me just read through these assumptions.

Five percent increase between the pay grades, the range maximums are 55% higher than the range minimum, so that's the spread for the range, and then with the exception of the battalion chiefs, all positions remain in their current grade.

The battalion chiefs have been recommended to they are at a grade 112.

Uh we're recommended that they go to grade 113.

You see a about three, I believe, placeholder four placeholders in the um pay plan, and that is to keep the integrity of the pay plan to move those battalion chiefs up a grade and to keep everyone where they are.

So that is the purpose of that.

The current pay plan, this is an example of the earning potential.

In the current pay plan, you see those three columns.

A captain, and this was just a simple example, hopefully, um, for everyone to understand.

The captain with high school degree with or without military experience, you see in that first tier, the max salary potential earning potential is 104,112.

In the proposed plan, without that kind of tiered scheduling, the maximum earnings for the same condition, a captain with high school, no ex no um with or without military, the max earning potential would be 116,793.

And so our recommendations are to implement the proposed pay plan where the employees will receive a salary increase to raise their salary to the minimum of the new pay plan or maintain their ratio to the midpoint.

Uh remove that subclass system, that tiered system for education and military from the uh from the current pay plan and implement the proposed.

Also to adjust the education incentive to align with the majority of the our market peers.

Um with this, well, let me just go through the example.

We're recommending that it be adjusted to currently we have five percent for associates degree max and ten percent for bachelors with the market, we're more than two times or at least two times above the market averages.

So our recommendation is to change or adjust those for the associate's degree to two and a half percent and the bachelor's to five percent.

While this adjustment, while we're recommending this adjustment, it is still a little bit above the market average within and above the market average.

And current employees would continue to receive the increases or the incentives that we have now, the five and ten percent, until for a degrees awarded um prior to June 30th, 2032.

So that gives any current employee six years to obtain the associates or bachelor's degree, and we're recommending uh, I believe in the resolution that that be the change for anyone hired July 6th and beyond would receive the two and a half and the five percent maxes for associates and the bachelor's degree.

We're also recommending to adjust the military incentive from five percent to three and a half percent, and then to revisit the residency requirement at a future date.

Excuse me.

Yes, ma'am.

Why give a why for the residency possible change because we did something a few years ago uh because we weren't we weren't at the again, everybody needed employees, and Winston we saw had the most restrictive uh when it comes to residency requirements.

So we removed them so we could attract uh more candidates.

So what are what are we asking to do here?

For the residency requirement, we're not making a recommendation to make a change right now.

So for that would remain the same.

We would look at that as a whole because as you know, we will be doing the third studies.

Police also has a res residency requirement, so we'll be looking at that as a whole.

Um, so that's the reason why we have to revisit that at a future date, but we're not recommending any changes, it would stay as it is.

them so we could attract uh more candidates so what are what are we asking to do here for the residency requirement we're not making a recommendation to make a change right now so for that would remain the same we would look at that as a whole because as you know we will be doing the third studies police also has a res residency requirement so we'll be looking at that as a whole um so that's the reason why we have to revisit that at a future date but we're not recommending any changes it would stay as it is thank you let me I I think based on your question mayor the the the resident requirement we only have a residency requirement for p for public safety officers to live within a certain distance of their reporting location for other general employees we don't have that and in this case what they found in the study is that most of our competitive agencies are not doing that so that's the the the issue to look at would be actually in removing potentially that residency requirement from our public safety folks okay thank you thank you uh the cost implications as you heard from Scott Tesh uh 1.9 million for salary and benefits that's going forward and depending on what the recommended implementation date would um then require the budget amendment for that amount and also just for future consideration what is uh approved here also sets a precedent for our future classification studies which will be starting fairly soon thank you that concludes my presentation thank you any questions comments again this is a resolution just in case you all had notice councilmember hall thank you uh mayor pro Tim uh I do have a few questions um I jotted down the um the future uh one third study that you talked about do you know about when I mean obviously appreciate this and we were looking for this with fire but do you know about when you all would be looking to do that one third study and maybe who's up next for that um do you all have a timeline for that yet we have our kickoff meeting with the contract um with the consulting um vendor later this month and that that time we will be finalizing the first third you know we are doing a third over the next three years so we have preliminarily identified about 45 maybe 50 positions in that first third um we will finalize that list and we will also publish that when it is finalized and then the second third and the third third so the second third will be starting sometime after July and then the third third next year.

Okay.

Does that answer your question?

It does.

Okay thank you um and then uh the respondents and this is uh for you or either to you manager pay so when we were looking at the summary of benefits survey slide I saw that only five out of nineteen um respondents um so was that that it was sent to 19 and only five responded or this you're just showing us okay um I could have interpreted that a little differently we talked about this I think manager pay when we were talking about different ways that we could get um feedback analysis information of what other municipalities were doing regarding pay and um I think one of the things you had talked about was that the school of government often would maybe um encourage other municipalities to speak with other municipalities take part in surveys I wanted to but you didn't always get the best response this appears to be the example of this although Moore's fields close to Charlotte you got Wake Forest close to Raleigh the Apex close to Raleigh and then we got high point which is great the high point I shout out to these five right so we appreciate that but is this the the essentially what you were speaking of yes ma'am curious to see why we didn't um get more but do appreciate the um 19 that did respond I mean the five of the 19 that did respond um council member hall may I add one thing sure in the third study we also have a um benefit survey component to look at it more broadly across the our organization so we will be looking at that again with this particular vendor so hopefully we'll get more responses at that particular time.

Okay.

And one of the other things I think that I mentioned before on the mic was when we do go out so it's always good to have these sorts of comparisons versus trying to see when we are paying firms to do studies for us then comparing that with what the average the average payout is to staff if like if we're paying a firm you know hundreds of thousands of dollars right to do a study versus the actual payout that does go to staff in any sort of um pay analysis that we're trying to do but I do appreciate when you are able to speak with and get information from other municipalities which hopefully are not charging us in the same way um that another firm would do so thank you for that welcome thank you councilmember Andre Bowen thank you maybe um so we we've heard a lot about when we would like to start this and I'm gonna put forth my my thoughts on when I would like to see it so um we voted on this in August of 2025 and in that proposal um

Um but I do appreciate when you are able to speak with and get information from other municipalities, which hopefully are not charging us in the same way that another firm would do.

So thank you for that.

Welcome.

Thank you.

Councilmember Andre Bowen.

Thank you, Member Tim.

Um so we we've heard a lot about when we would like to start this, and I'm gonna put forth my my thoughts on when I would like to see it.

So we voted on this in August of 2025, and in that proposal, um there was wording that the the this would go into work, this would be done before the um the uh the time off um would would be done being um the worth was what we're looking for the um man the benefits the benefits, the benefit cuts before the benefit cuts to came into a place that that took place in January, is that correct?

The accrual accrual rate checks that took place in January, correct?

So I uh um for me personally, I would like to see um this go uh be retroactive back to January of 2026 when that accrual rate took place.

Mayor Pro Tim Yes, Councilmember Hall.

Um I was gonna I was gonna interject the question based off of that.

I don't want it to go too far if that's okay.

If if that was the case, are there any budget implications to that?

Because I I I want the only thing that we heard was um 1.96 million from Mr.

Tesh.

And so I I don't want us to go too far from that of talking about that or anything until we hear from Mr.

Tesh if that's okay.

And that's why I brought it up to hear what he has.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you for the question.

In terms of rounded numbers and implementation, call it the first full pay period in January, and not knowing everything that would happen with those calculations would be roughly a million dollars in the current year that is not budgeted.

You would be looking potentially to use general fund balance to do that.

So we would be going to essentially the savings account for that.

We do not have revenues that are trending uh above what we have projected them, where we have additional revenues, operating revenues to cover that.

So I would have recommended to the city manager that if you're looking to do that, it would be a fund balance appropriation, and a half a year would be roughly a million dollars.

We could get you more accurate calculations with the exact pay periods.

Thank you.

Yes, ma'am.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Councilmember Clark.

Two comments.

First off, I would offer a comment to be cautious about comparisons on benefits.

And I'll take simply health benefits as an example.

Well, one CDA may charge an employee fifty dollars a month, the other one charges fifty, where they're the same.

No, they're not.

What's their maximum out of pocket?

What's their deductible?

What's their drug card?

What's the emergency room charge?

There are literally dozens and dozens of variables just in health insurance.

Dental, do they pay for one or two teeth cleanings a year?

I mean, benefits are very complex and they're very difficult to do comparisons because there are so so many variables.

Uh and I think that's why out of 19 people, only five of them filled the form out because it is very, very difficult than salaries.

Ms.

Chairman of the Finance, it's my job to take away the punch bowl just before the party starts.

We have to be careful.

We've already had a presentation on 11 million dollars for Winston Lake.

This is a $2 million year increase in salaries for roughly 20 percent of our employees.

Uh Mr.

Tesh, I'll ask you to come back of a number.

Did you do you know, did you make any adjustment when we changed the benefits?

Was there a salary savings there?

And I don't think we budgeted any salary savings from changing the benefits.

No.

Uh so the point is we have to pay for all this, and it's my job to remind everybody of that.

And every time we turn around, it's just chunk chunk chunk.

We got to come up with the money uh and understand we had a nine percent tax increase last fall that the average homeowner saw was about a 35 percent increase because of some other numbers in play.

And that has prompted both the State House and the State Senate to form ad hoc committees to look at putting restrictions on cities' abilities to raise property taxes.

We need to be sensitive to what we spend money on and how we do it.

So I just caution everybody to think through all this.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

Clark.

Um again, we got uh fast trains coming down the track on municipalities of things that we may not have any control.

But the one thing that I think most of you that know me have heard me say, you have to pay people.

You have to pay people.

If you want to appreciate, engage, whatever, you have to pay people.

They have to have benefits.

And in doing this, if we as a city, just like with the golf course, which is really not apples to apples, if we had managed our project better, if we had taken more responsibility to know that if we were raising our taxes according to other cities when they were raising theirs, while they were able to keep employees, attract the better employees.

We wouldn't, and uh and Mr.

King, you've shaken your head.

You know I'm telling the truth.

This is what has happened to us.

We're now at a point where we can't even turn back.

We got to keep going ahead.

We gotta figure out how to pay our employees.

Now, if citizens decide that, and and Mr.

Clark, no, I've said it.

Taxes are going up.

They're gonna always go up, and they're gonna go up more than what we've ever seen them.

But the citizens need to understand.

If you don't want to pay employees of the city, then you need to tell us what you want to cut.

Do you want to cut public safety?

Do you want to cut sanitation?

Do you want to cut utilities?

Do you want to cut reduce all the parks and recs that we got?

We got more parks and recs and call the guy live appeal.

Do we really all of this requires money as our finance chair tells us?

I need people, uh City Manager Pay and staff to start getting our minds right for what this budget is going to look like, Mr.

Tesh, in simple language that everybody can understand.

Because people know their taxes went up last year.

Oh, they're not going to raise the taxes this year.

Yes, we are.

Yes, we are.

I would be saying, I mean, I'm just saying that the others may vote they don't want to raise, but I'm gonna let Mr.

Clark, our finance chair, deal with that fallout, that we won't raise the taxes, which means we won't be able to do a lot of other stuff.

I'm putting it on you, Mr.

Clark.

Tell them the truth about that one handle or faucet you you talked about in the president.

We got that one knob we got to turn.

That's right.

If we still have that knob.

If the state decides, and then you, Mr.

Mayor, if the state decides that they are going to continue to investigate the path that they are going, that they promise during the election cycle that people are mad about their property taxes.

Candidates are promising them that I'm gonna fix it.

So we're going to create these committees to stop people from having to pay property taxes, higher properties.

Let's say you get locked in where you are now.

What are we going to do?

What are we going to do, Mr.

Bay?

We can only do what the state allows us to do.

And in this case, the only thing we other option we have is to look at additional user fees.

Mr.

Mayor.

Thank you.

And uh certainly support uh council member uh Already Bowen when we met with the firefighters here, we talked about the uh change to the accrual policies.

I said I would support a pay increase if the numbers justified it, and they clearly justify it.

So I'm very much in support of the resolution here.

I do believe the April time frame is a fair one.

Uh notstanding what you're saying, Councilmember, retroactive uh pay increases be very difficult to do, just uh within the systems, if you will.

So I think I think an April one time frame is a very very fair starting point.

Thank you, Madam Uh Mayor Mayor Partem.

I have one thing.

Uh we had our strategic plan meeting in January, and we were showed the um the public satisfaction survey, and we were shown a graph and the number one priority of the as that's top far as you can go for the biggest priority and the biggest satisfaction was our firefighters.

So um that is why I'd like to make that that that move forward.

Mayor.

I have a motion that I have a second.

I have a I was second so we can talk.

Uh huh.

I'll second it.

I'll second it.

Oh, I think she's thinking.

I'm not making a motion.

I know that I will, sure.

Can we can we get a motion on the floor?

I make a I can make a motion that we uh pass what is before us and have it the start date be in January of 2026.

Can I make one clarification when we talk about implementation dates?

If we could say the first full pay period, like first full pay period in fill in the blank month.

Then I that would help us on the when I make a motion, which I imagine is gonna lose.

I make a motion that we begin this this we approve this, what is before us for the first pay period of 2026.

Full pay period.

There we go.

I would second that.

Madam Chair.

Um I it if it uh pleases council, I I would I would ask you to give us direction.

If if you're gonna change what the resolution is in front of you, I would ask that y'all uh vote to give us directions so that we can bring you back specifics on that.

I uh I can tell you it's gonna be roughly a million dollars to do to do it longer to do it for six months out of the year uh to the question that was asked earlier.

Two million dollars is roughly a half cent on the tax rate.

So what you're if you approve this going forward, you're at you're approving another half cent to the tax rate.

Um but the but when we implement it, there's a lot of problems in going back and trying to do retroactive pay.

So if y'all decide what it is that you want to do, let me bring you back options on how we implement that.

The really the first if you move forward and uh uh as we've got it laid out, really the first pay period that we could really put this in place is in uh in the first full pay period in April.

And so if we're gonna do anything uh beyond that for employees, we'd like to bring you back an alternative as opposed to doing retro pay.

I have a motion on the floor, it's been moved and probably seconded.

Uh we need to vote.

Discussion on this is to retroact back to January the first versus April.

That's what Mr.

Bowen's motion is.

And we had discussion on that.

With with a and I like the idea of having being paid out in April, yes.

Excuse me.

No, no, no.

Never mind.

Can you repeat the current motion?

Madam Chair, may I ask a question?

Yes, go ahead.

Mr.

Bowler, Tesh, come up, please.

Go ahead.

Council Member Joan.

Uh Councilmember uh Andrews Bowen, are you asking to remove the motion that you previously put forth?

No, I I was I am I am not.

I'm just I'm reiterating that I want to back in April or what is what did I say?

January.

For the first poll pay period.

We wanted it to be effective.

Effective the first full period, so paying that out when it is available.

So my question then would be if we held this to the next meeting, then we'd push back April to May, possibly.

Is that correct?

So it if we're not going to do a uh retro.

I think the real the real issue for us is depending on when council makes a decision, we can tell you what pay period we can actually pay out that amount.

But if we hold this trying to get to a retro, it makes it more difficult to get a current pay period done.

That that is correct.

Thank you.

Can I make a comment?

Madam Chairman, make a comment.

Council Clark, then Council Member Hall.

First off, this is a committee meeting.

We're not we're simply recommending this to the next full meeting when we'll make the decision.

What's I think the city manager is alluding to, as opposed to going back for 400 employees and hand calculating the pay, he might be to come up with a lump sum number that you make it effective uh or with the first pay period, and he'll say, and we might be able to come up.

I did some quick math on it.

I know what the average firefighter was paid last year.

A month is one twelfth of that.

We're talking about three months.

You could the mass not the math that gets you 90 percent of the way there pretty quick, but he's got to hand calculate this for every employee, every fireman for every pay period.

And I think what he's suggesting is give him an opportunity to come back with a something that'll get us there without uh bankruptcy, the the personnel department in and and coming up with enough labor.

Right.

The payroll the division is very busy as it is, and if we have to give them all this to do, they may not be able to get payroll out.

Thank you, Mayor Pro Tim.

Just a couple of things that uh I want to talk about and get clarity after which uh may want to do a substitute motion.

Um you mentioned calculated um calculations, uh council member Clark, um manager pay.

I think you mentioned some calculations and the hardship that this could place on payroll.

So I'm hearing a couple of different things.

One, I'm looking at a HR director, looking at our budget director.

You've mentioned payroll that's out of finance that I can't remember whether I see or not in here, and I don't even know if IT comes in.

Is Kelly here?

Yes, sir.

Okay, hi.

So we got a few different departments that I think probably will have their hand in any decision that this body may make.

I'm curious as to and and once people start doing hand calculations, that's manual stuff, and sometimes mistakes happen, and God forbid we mess up somebody's pay, even if we were trying to do the right thing.

Um so if you got manual processes, you got digital processes going on at the same time.

Um that can be a little scary if we start operating it out of haste.

So if we could meet in the middle of an April, first period pay period in April, that'd be great.

I want to make sure that staff is confident between HR and payroll that that even seems um uh doable and that keeps us, Mr.

Budget Director, within the same calculations that we just saw, and it does not of the 1.96 million, correct?

Because we would not be going into January.

Would April keep us in the same period or would it take us over?

The 1.96 million dollar number is an annualized number.

So as the city manager was saying, one point if you approve those changes, it's 1.96 million dollars in next year's budget in the middle.

July one.

July one, and you would be prorating that essentially backwards for however many months you were doing.

All right, thank you for that.

Um I want to wait and then possibly substitute motion so we can get April back, unless you have to do a vote on the current motion.

Okay.

Once I get her response, then I will, yes.

Councilmember Hall, we have talked to Wayne, our payroll supervisor, uh, about implementing whatever is approved by council, and we both departments are in agreement that April would be the best.

The first paycheck pay period.

First full pay period in April, it would be effective, so then it would be seen on the second check in April.

I'd like to introduce uh substitute motion, which is to um approve a resolution amending Article 2 of the City of Winston Salem personnel resolution for certified fire personnel based on results of market study payable the first full pay period in April of 2026.

Effective, effective the first full pay period in 2026.

Can I get a second?

I'll second that, but I would like to can offer a friendly amendment to that.

Potentially, and that we direct staff to city manager to come back with a recommendation for the pay periods January, February, and March, some type of lump sum payment that would approximate what a retroactive pay would be.

And I I think that's very different from promotion.

I think the motion on the table now or the substitute motion is for April.

I'm not changing that.

Well, if you should I think the motion is to start in April, which is basically a half million dollars of additional funds that would have to bring.

If we do retroactive, then you're asking me to find a million dollars out of fund balance.

Yes.

Will you accept that as a friendly motion?

No, I will not.

Okay.

Is there a second to that motion?

You did.

I didn't.

Oh, you didn't find your I haven't seconded the motion.

Okay.

I need a second for council member hall substitute motion.

I I thought you seconded and then did uh and then said I'll second it with the I remove my second.

So I need a second to the substitute motion by council member hall.

Oh that's okay.

Need to call for the vote.

All those in favor of the substitute motion by Councilmember Hall.

And can you rephrase that again?

Or can City Clerk?

Sure.

I see the attorney over there grabbing the mic.

Go ahead.

I believe the motion is to uh approve the resolution with an effective date of the first full pay period in April.

All those in favor, let it be known by voting yes.

All those opposed vote no.

Is it just the committee?

Mine didn't pop up.

But I'm in favor.

And the motion passes.

I wanted to.

Thank you very much.

So when we bring this back to the full committee, the full council for adoption in April will also have the budget adjustment ordinance along with that.

That was not presented tonight.

Yes, because at that time, Mr.

Tesh and Mr.

Pate, we would be rolling.

We would be in budget, basically going in.

And the council needs to be aware of any and all implications of what we need to know in order to keep moving forward on the budget session.

Okay.

Yes.

All right, thank you.

Thank you, Mayor Pro Tim.

A lot of hard work in that committee.

Now turn to the public works committee.

And Mr.

Mayor Smith.

I was uh requested to see if you wanted to take a five-minute break.

Yeah.

Five minute break.

I'm exhausted.

60% of the time.

75% of the time.

Chatting in the house.

Okay, I call us back into order and if we're missing uh well, we've got a quorum.

Mr.

Mayor, I'll look in the office.

There they are.

All right.

Well, yeah, I gotta turn it over to Councilmember Burke for the uh public works committee.

Good afternoon.

Afternoon.

We have two items on our agenda.

And uh can't hear me.

We have two items on our agenda today.

City Clerk, would you please read the first item?

Item four resolution approving Winston-Salem Transit Authority route network changes identified in the route study.

Thank you.

Good afternoon, Miss Scarvin.

Good afternoon, Jeremy Burke.

Good afternoon, Mayor.

Mayor Puritan.

My name is Kelly Garvin, Assistant Director of Transportation for the City of Winston-Salem with authority with uh oversight of the transit authority today.

Thank you for the opportunity to go through really briefly uh some service changes that we are recommending for uh the system.

I'll try to go through this uh uh really quickly because most of this change, most of these changes is things that we have discussed at our at your council retreat in January.

So just really quickly and an overview of the changes that we're talking about, um increasing some frequency on eight of our current routes, making some routes more direct, introducing a microtransit zone, and as well as uh to support those changes, discontinuing some uh less uh uh popular routes, as well as in introducing some uh two new cross downs uh to the network.

Um the the goal again uh I stated before was to increase connectivity, um uh help um individuals get to uh destinations a little bit faster, and um just uh but by using those things then improving equitable mobility.

And so I'll uh I'll briefly remind you of this slide that you saw in January, which was uh the service standards that city council adopted that allows staff to be able to really evaluate the routes and make decisions on or may recommendations on uh based on which routes are uh high performing and and low performing, looking specifically at passenger per revenue hour.

So how many passengers do we get on a route per hour?

Um again, I I showed just this slide um in January.

This uh specific slide has to do with some of the uh implement the changes that we did in March on three routes where we saw already some increase in ridership.

So if you take some time and look at that slide, you'll see that the green chart uh indicates just an increase in ridership on the three routes where we um increased frequency, which is the routes went from 60 minutes to to 30 minutes, giving us then the confirmation that this is sort of the the the right direction for us to be to be.

So in more details, the service changes, this is a uh map of what the the WISTA network will would look like should these changes be approved.

Um the increased frequency really increases the uh overall performance of a system.

Currently, we are a system where 72% of network is uh about 60 minutes, so every hour frequency.

With the with these changes, should these changes be approved, the network would go to over 70% of them being 30-minute frequency, which is increases the attractiveness of the system for people that use it, um, which is sort of the goal also.

So I talked about some um cross down.

We've we've called them, we've labeled them the WISTA X, the premier job line, because that is the overall goal of the the study was to connect individuals directly to uh job centers in the community.

Um, and so the the services that we're proposing would be 30-minute frequency.

We're proposing two uh cross towns.

The first one is the WISTA X South, connecting Southeast Winston at Salem Garden to Haines Mall, which is a job cluster in the city of Winston-Salem.

The um important thing to note here is that this route, these uh cross downs, these job lines do not go to downtown.

They connect outside of downtown with other routes that give opportunity for individuals that are trying to make their way downtown to do so.

But they take take you directly from uh in this particular case, the residential area to a job cluster in the city.

The next uh cross town, the next job line here is WISTA X North, connecting Haynes Mill Road at the Walmart to the Atrium Health area.

Again, the same idea, 30-minute frequency route, uh connecting individuals here in this case to actually two uh job clusters in the city of Winston Salem, giving them opportunities to get there more directly than having to go to downtown and then back out.

Um so, in order for us to be able to implement some of these changes, we have to propose some service elimination in order for us to maintain remain within the existing budget and uh uh you utilize the current assets that we have.

And so we'll we'll talk through some of the changes changes sort of in areas because it's easier for us to group them by areas.

Um the northeast area, we're not really making more a lot of changes to that area.

It's already a high performing area in our system.

The only change that we're proposing that's that may be a little significant is the adjustment of a of Route 93, as you can see.

The dashed line in any of these areas that I'm going to show are where services are proposed to be eliminated in in general.

So when you see a dashed line, you can assume that it's a proposal for service elimination.

Uh in the southeast area, there are some uh additional uh proposals there.

The elimination of routes 101 and 108 uh are proposed.

You will see that some of those routes are already also being covered.

You can see the WISTA X south in that brown line.

I'm sorry, that brown line that's sort of Salem Garden.

If I could point, you probably can't see my my cursor, but Salem Garden and makes its way all the way to Haynes Mall Boulevard.

And so some of those routes are being replaced by uh a new service, and some will lose service and um again increased frequency in that area as well.

Uh Southwest area, same uh same uh kind of situation here.

Some service elimination is proposed for Route 82 and Route 102, um, and then increased frequency for Route 81.

And again, that's that cross down we've been mentioning that that's the WISTA X South, the job line connecting Haynes Mall Boulevard to Salem Garden in this particular case.

In the Northwest area, the changes are also a little bit more comprehensive.

There are some service elimination proposed, Route 88, 97 and 109.

But again, similar to the southeast, you can see that some of those routes are also being replaced by either are covered by either existing routes or by new routes that we're proposing uh to put in their in their places.

Um we're also increasing frequency, and we're at we're adding in this area the microtransit zone.

That shape that yellow-sheded area that you see is the microtransit zone that we had discussed uh prior uh during your uh January meeting.

So a little bit about how that microtransit zone would interact with our uh current fixed route system.

The way it would work is for example, if you were a resident that lived um on Luther Green Road, you might uh call microtransit service by you know dialing on an app or calling WISTA itself, and the vehicle would come and pick you up at your address, and then you would be able to the the vehicle would take you directly to uh the next uh corresponding fixed route bus.

Um not shown on this slide is if you lived if the destination you're trying to get to within the zone is the is within is where you live as well, you could just use microtransit to maneuver within that zone as well.

Uh just a summary again of the changes, uh a significant increase in uh the productivity of the system, more 30-minute frequency routes.

Uh we hope to yield more attractive service here.

And so I want to spend some time next year, talk about about our community engagement.

We are proposing a really really comprehensive suite of changes, and it was important for us to get out into the community and talk to them about what those changes are, engage them, help them understand sort of what what we're trying to accomplish, and also see where there might be gaps in what we are proposing.

And so, in order to do that, we spent some time hosting several meetings.

We held a virtual meeting, um, and then we had uh a couple of in-person meetings in various locations.

We tried to uh have one in the center so that at the library downtown, and we had two other ones that were in the north of town and in southeast Winston to reach communities that we thought might need additional support in sort of uh walking them through these changes.

We made sure that people were aware of the the meetings.

We we handed out flyers on the bus.

We also had an an uh a pop-up table all day at the transit center where we interacted directly with riders and spent some time sort of walking them through the changes and then helping them understand where they might be able to catch a ride if their the current route their current stop is proposed for elimination.

There's a survey going on right now, survey is still live.

Um, individuals can fill that survey up until March 24th.

So this is just again some footage of of what we we did, and we had a lot of commu a lot of uh engagement from folks, especially at the TC and at that first meeting at the library, we did see a lot of people come to those meetings.

And so, what was the response?

I'll highlight that in as part of your packet, there is a more comprehensive summary of what uh the responses have been.

But I'll give you sort of the high notes of what we we can tell from the information that we've gathered so far, keeping in mind that the survey is still ongoing.

Um the survey data, and because there's two kinds of responses that we got from the surveys, and they were dependent on a few factors.

If the route that the survey respondent was was uh if the route that the surveyor was taken, if their route was proposed for elimination, they responded negatively to those changes because they were losing access to the service, which is a normal response, what we what we anticipated.

And the other metric that was kind of interesting is if the individual taking the survey on paper on paper, you know, their response was different than those that were taking the survey online.

And the reason we we think for that is because in the people that took surveys on paper had an opportunity to interact directly with us and for us to walk them through those changes because we are we're we're we're putting out a lot, and so it's kind of overwhelming.

And so some of the the key key things that we we gathered is that as of March 3rd, we've we had received 87 total surveys.

Um the paper surveys generated significantly more positive responses than the online surveys, and in general, just across the board, those individuals who retained service were in favor of the changes as expected.

Those who lost access were up to the network were opposed to the changes.

And of all the eliminations that were proposed, of course, one or eight generated the most concern from from all the the the eliminations that were proposed.

So in conclusion, we do uh understand that uh from the survey from the survey data and just communication with uh the community that the majority of the existing WISTA riders will see a positive impact from the recommendations that we're we're placing before you today.

Um, the proposed service changes have a potential to attract new rider.

We're making a service that is more attractive to the community, and then the additional uh the there will there will be a need, should this be approved, there will be a need for additional education.

We will need to really boots on the ground, continue to reach the communities between the time that if the city council approves this, between that time and the time we actually launched to help give folks an opportunity to understand how this this is going to sort of impact their life because it's a huge change, and they will need some of our existing riders have done the same thing for a very long time.

So they will need some handholding.

We do have another public hearing scheduled for March 23rd to uh in order to gather additional feedback, and we welcome those and then city council consideration on April 6th.

With that, um I'll take any questions that you have.

Any questions for Miss Garvin, a mayor?

Thank you.

Uh very impressive, and I'm so excited about particularly well, a lot of it, but particularly the two cross city uh routes there.

Relative to one of those, the uh WISTA X North, uh, what's the head time on that uh from and how many stops along the way approximately uh we don't exactly have a number of stops yet that's still in development.

However, the frequency of the bus would be every 30 minutes.

But for some of those routes, because they were long routes.

So if you're on the bus, you'd be on the bus probably for an hour without you know having to go downtown because it's just from one side of town to the other, but the bus would be coming every 30 minutes.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um Councilmember Scipio.

Thank you.

Um looking forward to these changes.

Uh, but I have a concern about 108.

Uh my memory might be a little foggy, but I thought we were thinking about doing a microtransit down in that area, but then I see it's in the northern area.

That was up for consideration.

I don't think we actually ever got a formal uh recommendation from City Council to move forward, but that is certainly within your purview to make that recommendation.

That's right, Councilor Sipio.

I think what we were working with with the existing budget, basically after after last year's conversation around the budget, we took that number, and that's what we're working with.

I think if you were we did talk about in January, you know, if you wanted to consider um an additional microtransit zone, it would cost you more money, and we can bring back a number for that if you wanted to consider that for the southeast area.

But but basically the existing budget covers the microtransit zone in the north part of the city.

Anything in addition to that would be an additional budget for WISTA.

So I'm just assuming there was more interest in the microtransit in the northern part than in the southeast part.

No, not well, I'm not gonna say there was more interest because riders.

There was more riders, and then I would also say that if you see the way that the microtransit is shaded, it supports a number of routes in that area.

And so if you remove that microtransit, you're you're kind of leaving those routes hanging without really connections.

So that's what that microtransit zone is supposed to do.

Whereas in the south part of the southeast part of town, you're not really connecting to as many routes as you are up there.

Thank you.

Councilmember Andrew Bowen.

Thank you very much.

Um, so I know that when we first discussed this, there was um no added costs to the budget.

Is that still in the case?

Uh councilmember uh Andrew Ballon, if I may.

Um so the overall WIST of budget for FY27 will increase, but that's largely to the appropriation of federal allocation correctly.

But to answer your question specifically, what we refer to is that uh outside of just some inflationary adjustments, the the property tax subsidy will remain consistent as it is in this current fiscal year with these recommended changes.

Thank you.

Um so this is something that I've been advocating for.

I'm very excited by the potential of having this.

Um the work that I do outside of city council is looking at food and security, and there are parts of our our community where food is not going into the food food retail is not going into.

So the the best way we can get people to other places faster, I'm all for it.

Thank you.

Okay.

Thank you.

Councilmember Joyner.

Thank you, Chair.

Um I uh thank you for this presentation today and for the work that you and staff did over the last several weeks to try and educate and get outreach to um the citizens about this.

I had the privilege to uh attend two of the uh uh sessions, information sessions, and listening to citizens ask the question and the way that staff was able to really dig in and explain it however many questions they asked to until they got that that citizen was clear on what it was.

And for the most who I I got a takeaway from is the takeaway from citizens.

Well, okay, I'm gonna lose that, but I'm gonna be okay.

The the greater majority of folks that attended, um, and they were the everyday people who use it every single day.

We talked to one uh mother and son, an older couple, who um their route was going away, but and they used it every day, and the son was like, okay, mom, we're gonna be okay because we can do this, that because he got that information from you all.

So thank you to all the staff that are here as well as those that are at the uh transportation station.

Um I support this wholeheartedly.

Councilmember Taylor.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Ms.

Garvin, thank you for the presentation.

Um, I'm looking forward to seeing some of the changes, um, particularly in the southeastern portion of the city.

Um, speaking of that, I think I agree with Councilmember Scipio.

Um, I'm not saying that this is something that we should implement, but we have had discussions around microtransit in that particular area.

So, Mr.

King, I just ask um just for our information, if you could just do some research, get us some numbers and some costs.

I know we've got lots to consider this budget cycle, but it's certainly something we're willing to consider.

So thanks again, Ms.

Garvin.

And if you get those numbers for me, I'd appreciate it.

Yes, sir.

Councilmember Hall.

Thank you, Councilmember Burke.

Thank you for the presentation.

Um, uh I appreciate the animation on the slides.

I thought it was really cool, and we can really use it right now.

Um, thanks for that.

Um, the other part to that, and I really appreciate you honing in about um the community engagement, and then I guess one other session that you all may implement.

Can you please give me the date again?

That's March 23rd.

March 23rd, there will be a public hearing here at the public hearing, okay.

All right.

Um, but uh one thing, and I can talk to you all offline.

I want to talk about um March 5th at Haynes Hoserry in particular, so I can talk offline.

We don't have to use that on the mic, but thank you all again, and thank you for your work that you do.

Any other questions?

Uh Ms.

Garvin, I just wanted to ask for the microtransit pickup.

What is the wait time when uh calls are made for pickup?

So for most of those systems, and when it's at peak time, it might be up to 30 minutes.

That's that's that's as high as we want to go.

And so we will be working with our partners at RATP dev to kind of figure out when our peak times are.

And right now we have an idea of how many vehicles we might assign to that zone, but as the we launch and we see sort of how it evolves, we would have to adjust to make sure we remain within that threshold.

And one other question um for the northeast area, uh, the Route 93 will be eliminated.

Am I reading it wrong?

Oh uh, I don't think it is being eliminated, just a portion of it that um if you see the 10th Street, 12th Street, yes, yeah.

Just that dotted part is going to be eliminated, and that will increase some of the the frequency there from 60 to 30 minutes.

So, what will how are we addressing the individuals who normally pick up and drop off at at those locations?

So the the solution to that, the actual walk to be able to reach either of those right, whether it's 96 or 93, it's a quarter mile walk.

And so most individuals will have to walk that quarter mile distance.

And if somebody's eligible for trans aid and they're unable to walk, then they can schedule trans aid.

Okay, thank you, Ms.

Scarvin.

And just like uh council member Hall, I appreciate the animation.

Uh we need to take a vote.

Um, can I get a motion to approve uh this uh item and second ready to vote?

Okay, that item passes.

Uh City Clerk, can you read the uh second item, please?

Item five resolution amending the Winston-Salem Transit Authority fare policy to establish a microtransit rate.

Okay, Mr.

Fansler, you're up.

Uh thank you, Madam Chair, Mayor Joins, members of the committee and council.

I appreciate your time this afternoon.

I just knew this would come up in our last discussion, but I just wanted to highlight uh how appreciative I am of staff uh bringing these items for you for these comprehensive changes.

But to do that, you heard a lot about microtransit.

Well, we have to establish a fair for microtransit.

So the item before you very plainly is a resolution to uh uh adopt a revision and amendment to our West of Fair policy to add microtransit fare.

And that's what's before you.

So, well, in strong good government fashion, we had to go figure out what we do with Pier Cities and also what how this fits into our current fair policy.

So I'm glad you asked that.

Here's our current fair policy.

Uh, for those that uh want to uh take a look at that.

Uh as you as you know, we're a dollar for fixed route and trans aid is the same.

We have, of course, 10 rod and 30, 30 day or 30 rod passes uh the same.

We do offer half fare, so obviously, as the name indicates, it is half fair priced.

But then notice we are recommending a two-dollar general fare for our proposed microtransit zone.

And so, well, why why two why two dollars?

Why not five dollars?

Why not one dollar?

Well, another great question.

I'm glad you asked.

So we benchmarked peer cities as well, peer agencies in this space to figure out what they charge.

And so the bottom line really is uh this is gonna be a subsidized service, right?

All of our public transit is.

And so we wanted to see it where we are in the market, and so we are recommending really uh especially for our pilot.

Where we need to be, we're gonna be analyzing this as we launch pretty comprehensively.

But we're recommending two dollars, and you can see how it lines up with other microtransit services in the area.

Greensboro has not announced theirs completely yet.

Of course, their go Go Borough program recommends it heartily, and they are going to be considering that in subsequent budget years.

I would expect to see that very soon, and we'll be monitoring that as they roll their service out as well.

But bottom line, and item before you is a consideration to establish a two-dollar fare for microtransit for uh the proposed changes that you just heard Ms.

Garvin talk about.

And I'm happy to take any questions.

Councilmember Scipio.

Are we going to ever propose a higher rate for the rest of our um ridership?

Because we haven't increased that one dollar in a long time.

And my my initial reaction is if you start microtransit at $2, it's gonna disincentivize people from riding it.

Well, so I just wondered, because they're so used to one dollar.

Great question.

And and certainly we can have a conversation and council could consider that, right?

And we can figure out we're gonna subsidize it even further.

Let me make this comment because on a fixed route bus, you're carrying typically a lot more people.

And so we look at this from a cost per passenger perspective.

The microtransit is very it costs a lot more per passenger.

So the reason we're trying to say let's distinguish that prioritize that above the fixed route fee is because the cost per ride, unique to a rider and their scheduled trip, is significantly higher than a fixed route bus.

And so that's a policy decision we could have at length, but we're trying to show the distinction between that cost per hour discrepancy because we're gonna be heavily subsidizing that per hour ride.

I mean per trip, right?

Excuse me.

I understand that.

So let's give you give me a uh here's a scenario.

I need to go to catch your express route.

Do I pay two dollars for the microtransit and then pay the express route, or do I do a transfer?

Good question.

So in the item, we are rec rec recommending that for your consideration that that first transfer is free.

So to get from the microtransit zone to the fixed route, it's free transfer and the same on the return.

So if you take that bus back, you would want to go from a fixed route to a microtransit.

You would have to pay that one dollar discrepancy because it's only one dollar to get on the the fixed route, but it's a two-dollar ride.

So you're gonna pay that one dollar gap to get to that two dollar.

So essentially, fixed route and uh uh man microtransit for one trip scheduled trip would be two dollar summary.

Yep.

But if I want to come back, I have to pay it a dollar for the remember, it's a dollar for the fixed route and then a dollar for the two microtransit, so a total of two dollars for that trip.

I just think that just disincentive.

Disincentivizes people.

Um just the way it just sounds to me, knowing bus riders and you know, I'm just used to a dollar.

I'm used to that.

Can you use your 30-day pass on the microtransit?

Uh go ahead, Kelly.

No, and the the reason we came up with those numbers is we looked at largely how all the peer cities that Jeff mentioned, how they're handling during microtransit, and it's the same, it's they're handled the same way.

So you have a fee for your fixed route, and you have a separate fee for your microtransit.

And most of them, if not all, um, when you transfer from fixed route to micro, you pay that difference to to catch up to what the micro fee microtransit fee is.

So it was consistent to what with what our peer agencies were doing.

I think we ought to track that learning curve and see how how people adopt to that because that's such a big difference in how they use our bus service now.

You just get really used to the dollar, you get used to the 30-day pay as so I just and it's all cashless, right?

Or not?

It will be.

It will be.

The microtransit fee certainly will be cash.

Uh-huh.

Now, however, remember when we used when we launch YUMO, individuals will have the opportunity to load up their card.

Yes, they can pay cash at the transit center and eventually at Walmart and CVS and other places, um, but you will have to use your UMO card to pay if you do not want to use the app.

And that card's good for both fixed route and for microtransmit.

Councilmember Andrew Bowen.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Speaking of U Bo, we will when does that going to become online?

I'm so glad you asked.

Actually, please download the UMO app.

Please download the Yumil app.

The trip planning uh portion of the app is already live.

You should be able to plan your trip currently.

We're working through some finer details that has to do with payment processing in order for us to launch the payment part of the app.

But you can start trip planning and let me know if you see if you see clonks in the app.

I'm we're in the soft soft launch.

Don't tell anybody.

So test it for us, but it's already live.

We're marketing that um pretty hardcore right now.

Councilmember Taylor.

Mr.

Fansler, um, I am perfectly okay with the uh $2 microtransit fee.

Um I know the answer to this, but would we apply the same fee to any future microtransit zones?

I know we just had a brief discussion about some possibilities.

Is this a one-time flat fee for all and current and future zones?

Let us know.

Councilmember Taylor, it will be a microtransit zone for the city of Winston Salem, not specific to a certain pilot.

Thank you.

Councilmember Hall.

Thank you, Councilmember Burke.

Uh Director Fansler, thank you.

Um I had a question which might require a tag team.

I'm sorry you have to keep getting up.

But to Councilmember Scipio's question about whether or not you could use the 30-day pass, the answer I believe was no.

Is that because with microtransit?

Is that because when you purchase the 30-day pass, it is essentially equated to one dollar per trip.

And so you can't use two trips for one microtransit ride, I guess.

Exactly.

So the 30-day pass.

So we have different kinds of products that we sell.

The 30-day pass is essentially, I have this pass for 30 days, but I can use it as often as I want to during those 30 days.

It's not really a 30 trip pass, it's a 30-day pass.

And so that's applicable only to your fixed route system.

You it's not really good practice to merge that over to your microtransit system.

And and one other question, did do you all foresee or have you seen other jurisdictions to do two different types of the 30-day pass that have a microtransit systems?

Um when I was looking into our PR agency, I didn't really see a 30-day pass program for other communities that that had a microtransit, not yet anyway.

And remember a lot of these communities that are launching microtransit are fairly new.

High point just came out with theirs.

I think CATS also is fairly recent within the last year, so we're still sort of in the testing out phase of those of us that are commingling microtransit and fixed route, unlike Wilson, who only has microtransit.

Thank you.

Councilmember Andrew Bowen.

Thank you.

I have one more question.

So I remember we approved recently that there would be a $2 a day cap on all fixed routes.

Is this going to is using the microtransit is that going to apply here as well?

No, the the cap is only applicable to your fixed route because it worked kind of like a 30-day pass.

Okay, thank you.

Any other questions?

Councilmember Scipio?

It's this not a question.

It's just something to consider.

In uh the Bay Area, they have a transit pass, and you put out as much money on it as you want, and you can use it on anything the buses, the ferries, the trains.

Um at some point, I think we ought to think about trying to make riding the bus easier for our residents by having them have something, just one something to be able to use.

That option will be available actually when we launch you more the the payment processing part.

You can load as much money on the card as you want to, and you can use it.

We call it cash value.

You can use it just the cash value, and you don't have any trips, you just use the cash that you have on it.

Thank you, Ms.

Scarvin.

Thank you, Mr.

Fansler.

Uh is there a motion to approve this item?

So move.

Second.

Okay.

We're ready to vote.

Okay.

It passes.

Uh that concludes our public works agenda.

Mr.

Mayor, I turn it back over to you.

Thank you, Councilmember.

Well, we save the best for last.

Mr.

Clark is gonna deal with about 128 million dollars worth of money.

Good job there.

We have two items on finance.

I would like to talk about them both together.

We will vote on them separately, but they both have to do with refinancing some bonds.

Ms.

Latham, can you come up with the I'm assuming you're presenting?

Can you present then?

Item six, consideration of actions regarding the issuance of 10.4 million two-thirds general obligation bonds, series 2026 A and B, as well as the issuance of general obligation refunding bonds and the amount of 37.8 million.

Good afternoon, Chair Clark.

Mayor Joins, Mayor Pro Tim Adams and members of council.

This item allows staff to start the process of issuing $10.4 million of two-thirds bonds.

These are general obligation bonds that are non-voted that we are statutorily allowed to issue in the amount of two-thirds of the amount of the principal on our geo debt that we paid off in the prior fiscal year.

This is a practice that we have routinely issued around every two years.

However, we really just monitor the projects to see how quickly they're moving to determine the right time to issue the debt.

And so at this time we do have $10.4 million of projects that are moving forward.

And some of the projects have already started spending.

Some of the projects are recently completed.

So the it's the right time at this point to issue those two-thirds bonds.

And these are the projects that are listed in the handout.

Yes, on your exhibit.

For example, uh sidewalk bonds, and then there's some park bonds, public safety bonds, et cetera, et cetera.

Thank you.

Continue.

So the other item that comes with this is that there is an opportunity to refinance the uh 2016 geobonds.

They've reached their 10 year call date where we are allowed to refinance them if the rates are favorable.

Um the 2012 A and the 2014 GO bonds may also be favorable for refinancing.

So approval for this item would give staff the ability to refinance these bonds if the market conditions are favorable on the day of the bond sale.

The local government commission would handle the bond sale for both of the issues.

Um based on the current numbers, we would be looking to save 1.6 million dollars net present value on the refinancing of the geo bonds, which is around a 4% savings or policy allows to refinance if we can get at least 3% savings.

You know what not the net present but the actual dollar savings is?

Um 1.7 million is the gross amount of the savings.

Okay.

And if you could, while you're up there, talk about the number seven, if you'll read that one, the uh revenue bond.

Item seven consideration of actions regarding the issuance of 80 million in water and sewer refunding bonds series 2026.

Um so at this point in time, the 2016 bonds have again they've reached their 10-year call period where we are allowed to refinance these.

Um the market conditions right now are very favorable for that, and our net savings would be around six million dollars.

Um, the gross savings there would be around seven million dollars over the next 14 years.

Um, and that would be a 7.2 percent savings versus our policy of 3 percent.

So uh the rates have moved um in a positive direction for refinancing recently.

This is um 1 million dollars higher than it was a couple of months ago.

Okay, thank you.

Um any questions from anyone?

By the way, for the new folks, we do this periodically.

I won't say regular because we don't sell bonds every year, but periodically, if the stars are aligned, we will refinance the bonds and save money.

And I do want to be pointing out that's roughly a nine million dollar savings at the finance committee try to cover some of the spend thrift from some of the other committees, Mr.

Mayor.

But uh with that, um six.

Oh, excuse me.

I do have a question.

Go right ahead.

Um just for clarification, and um the two-thirds projects are projects that I know we have either started or have approved.

Yes, okay.

Um question is when we get our facility assessment study done, and we have these huge millions of dollars for buildings.

Um will the two-thirds bonds or any other bonds be available for us to tackle any of that, or have will we have exhausted our ability to do bonds?

Because we are using it here.

Uh no, we can issue two-thirds bonds basically every 13 months.

Um as we pay down the debt, we we then can reissue two-thirds of what we paid off.

Um, and we also have currently have capacity as well to um to issue other types of debt as far as which projects might be financed by which type of debt.

Um part of that's driven by the timing of the spending of the projects as well as um the city manager um in terms of I know we're sort of changing our philosophy as far as which projects we may fund in the future by cash versus which we might borrow money for, but we have options including both debt and cash.

And and I do have a question.

I see there's a million dollars for salem gardens.

Was that the million dollars that we spent for renovating Salem Gardens two years ago?

And that okay, that was from bonds that uh that was approved in 2018, I think.

Those projects that's what that is.

That's correct.

So when we're putting together a package, we look at all the projects the council has approved to be funded by debt, and which ones are are moving forward to put together a full package.

Okay, thank you.

Uh with that, if I can get a motion for approval.

Second.

I'll do six uh number six first.

We have a motion, a second.

Second.

I mean, I did the motion.

Excuse me, Councilmember Clark.

Yes, ma'am.

We're gonna do this, but I we don't have to read the uh reading the bond order.

That can take place at the March 23rd meeting.

Good enough, because I don't use and then there'll also be a public hearing on the geodebt on April 6.

Okay, we have a motion and a second.

By the way, there is a fixed cost to issuing bonds, and that's why we don't issue them every month.

We wait until we have enough because the fixed cost is kind of the same whether you're not you're selling one or a hundred bonds.

You still got to uh do certain paperwork and file certain things, go up with the local government commission thinks of that sort.

Okay, well now do number seven, I can get a motion to approve number seven.

So move for motion and a second, if we'll please vote.

Goodbye, please vote.

Thank you very much.

That concludes finance.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

We do have a one other item.

Mr.

Tash is going to briefly uh hit on the community agency's funding process.

Oh wow.

I didn't know that.

Good afternoon, Mayor and Mayor puts in members of the city council.

I know we have been here for a few minutes.

I will make this as quick as I possibly can.

It's part of the community agencies process.

We are asking for your input.

So I spoke a couple of weeks ago about the process under which we would get that from you.

Jamie has shared on the screen a little bit later today.

You will receive an email from me that looks very much like this.

It is going to have three links in it.

The first two are right there under application materials.

And if Jamie has one of those already up, when you click on it, it will lead you directly to a consolidated PDF of all of the community agencies' applications.

If you go over to the table of contents on the left, the navigation pane, they are in alphabetical order.

You can simply click on one.

If you are in the table of contents, you can actually click on it from there.

It will take you directly to the application so that you can review the application if you would like.

There are two links in the email.

One is, as we've indicated before, only the applications.

That PDF is roughly 800 pages long.

The second link is with the supporting materials.

That one is nearly 7,000 pages long.

How many?

7,000.

That's three zeros.

Yes, ma'am.

It's about 6,649.

Um there are a lot of things that community agencies submit, some required and some not required.

Many of them put letters of interest and uh things of that nature.

So you may see what they have submitted to us.

Many of those documents also don't get reviewed until if they are accepted as part of a contracting phase.

We review those to make sure that they are uh eligible for funding through the city attorney's office.

So you may use either one of those documents.

It links directly to the city's website.

They are posted publicly.

If Jamie will go back to the um well, you can go there, that's fine.

The email, the second or the third link right there is a scoring sheet, and it will populate something that looks like this.

I am going to tell you this is done in a Microsoft product, and it does not like Apple iPads.

So I strongly recommend you use a desktop or laptop computer to fill this out.

There are two tabs you see at the bottom.

One says general fund and one says occupancy tax fund.

We are asking you to do two things only.

In the column on the left, simply put a one through five for your high five highest priority agencies.

As Jamie is doing there.

One enter, two enter, three enter, whichever your top five, tell us what your top five are.

The next column is the org name, so that is the organization itself.

We have the case name, which tells you basically what the project or program is.

The next column shows you the average staff score.

I will tell you a lot of these scored very closely together, somewhere between the 10 and 14 range.

And so if you see something that's a 12 and something that's an 11, there's not really a substantive difference from that.

Staff is looking at is it a complete application?

Have they filled out what is supposed to be there?

Is there strategic plan alignment?

The things I've shown you before.

But I would tell you the standard deviation rounded up is two, so plus or minus two is four points.

There's not a lot of difference.

70% of them are going to fall in that four-point range.

The E column is to show you what they have requested via the application process.

Column F tells you what they are currently funded at in 26.

All of those are locked so that you don't have to touch them.

And that final column is yours to tell us how much you would recommend for funding for that organization.

Well, the top five.

Do the top five on the right, on the left.

On the right, Jamie's going to scroll down just a hair.

There is a number down there at the bottom that tells you the exact number we are trying to come to.

If you do it in this online format, the number highlighted in green will actually change as you enter data to show you how much money is left.

I do have paper copies if someone would prefer to do it via paper.

That requires you to use a calculator, but it's easy to see all on one page that way.

This one requires some scrolling.

I will tell you when I send you the link.

The link is unique to you.

Please do not share it with anyone else.

If you do, they would be able to manipulate data just as you would be able to, potentially.

We have tried to keep it so that that won't happen, but keep the link to yourself.

Once for general fund, and then she'll click the occupancy tax fund piece.

There are significantly fewer of those.

Sorry, it's got to go to the left.

Same thing.

Tell me which are your top five, although there's only eight of them.

And then over to the right, you have 425,000 to allocate.

Those are the increased amounts based on the inflation that we talked about in January and last month.

But we're essentially, we want to know how you would allocate the money, which is the right column.

The left side, the one through five, just tells us which ones you provide the most importance or prominence to, so that we can see where there's coherence.

If you have any questions at all, contact me directly or Dana.

We will get you squared away on how to use this.

Hopefully, this is pretty simple and easy, but if you have any questions, let me know.

Again, I have paper copies of both of these if you'd prefer that method.

And that's all I've got for you.

When you need it back.

Two weeks.

Two weeks.

Two weeks, good.

Mayor, we normally have the newer council members.

We're gonna ask for next Friday, so two business weeks.

Any other questions for Mr.

Tesh?

Thank you, Mr.

Tish.

I think.

You're welcome, I think.

We asked for it, I know.

All right, Council members.

Uh is there a motion to adjourn?

So moved.

Second.

Motion second adjourn.

All in favor of joining, please say aye.

Aye.

We are adjourned.