Commissioner Manor is participating remotely for personal travel.

He's joining us from Mexico City.

Before we begin, I have a few announcements about participating in tonight's meeting.

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Jacobs who has her hand raised.

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Thank you for honoring those principles.

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Please speak directly into the microphone to ensure all can hear you clearly.

And with that, do we have any changes to tonight's docket?

Yes, Madam Chair.

We um have a change for uh docket item number four has been uh there's a deferral request by the applicant.

Okay.

All right, I'll take a motion for deferral.

Move to defer uh docket item number four.

I'll second.

I have a motion by Vice Chair Kenig and a second by Commissioner Ramirez to defer docket item number four.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Opposed.

Motion carries six zero.

Yep.

All right.

No other changes to the docket.

Uh except the consent calendar.

Yep.

No other changes.

Okay.

That brings us to the consent calendar.

Are there any commissioners wishing to pull an item from consent tonight, or are there any public members of the public pulling an item from consent?

Yes, we have a member of the public who wants to pull docket item number two, which is the subdivision at 114 East Raymond Avenue.

Okay.

And any other changes by commissioners.

Hearing none, um, I'll take a motion to approve consent calendar item three.

Move to approve consent calendar item number three.

Second.

All right, I have a motion by Vice Chair Canigan, a second by Commissioner Ramirez to approve consent calendar item three.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Did I hear Jody on that one?

Oh, you're muted, but I see your mouth moving.

Um, all right, that's uh six six zero uh approving docket item three.

That brings us to docket item two on the consent calendar.

Docket item number two, zone uh subdivision 2026 0005 East Raymond Avenue, public hearing and consideration of a request for a subdivision to resubdivide an existing lot into two lots.

The property is zone R25 residential single family.

The applicant is Timothy Maureen.

Good evening, Commissioners.

Katie McDonald with planning and zoning.

Um as Ms.

Jacobs said, this is a subdivision request for 114 East Raymond Avenue.

Oops.

There we go.

Um requesting to rub resubdivide uh single lot into two new lots.

Um both of the lots comply with the zone regulations for two unit semi-detached dwellings, and the new lots are consistent with other lots on this uh on this block and in the uh area of comparison.

This is in the R25 residential zone.

Uh it's currently occupied a single by a single unit dwelling.

Um the immediate surrounding uses are residential, um, but there is a uh commercial right down the street as well.

The original law is a little over 5,000 square feet, um, as you can see here, and what they are proposing is to divide it in half in order to redevelop it with a semi-detached two-unit dwelling.

Staff is recommending approval as it fits with the uh surrounding block face.

Um there's six other uh lots on this block of East Raymond that are uh developed with semi-detached units and so have very similar care lot characteristics, um, and there I believe are 10 total in the original subdivision, so it's very in character with the surrounding lots.

And I can take any questions.

Thank you.

Are there any questions for staff from commissioners?

All right.

Let's go to our public hearing.

Okay.

Our first uh and only speaker is Barbara Fox.

I see I see a timer here, right?

Okay.

So uh my name is Barbara Fox, and I want to first thank you all for listening to my concerns tonight.

I wanted to share with you why I think a duplex at 114 is not appropriate for the neighborhood.

I have two basic reasons.

One is that the home shouldn't be demolished in the first place, and the second is that the uh a duplex in this location would adversely impact neighbors on the block.

I am the next door neighbor.

Um as we know, uh Bluestone builders brought bought this property.

What I know about Bluestone is that they have done work in the neighborhood, specifically helping with foundations and digging out basements and things like that.

I understand that my neighbors who have worked with them in the past have been very happy with their work.

I also understand that Bluestone intends to raise the house and build a duplex on this single lot.

I oppose this for two reasons.

The first is that this is a classic Delray home, a Dutch colonial, and should not be torn down at all.

The house is a very well-built 1920s home.

Homes built in this era are solid.

They're made from strong construction materials like old growth lumber.

They have thick plaster walls and are cool in the summer and warm in the winter.

They also provide natural surround uh soundproofing, which is particularly important since the airport is right out our back door.

It would be an enormous waste to simply trash those great qualities.

Uh further, this house has loads of potential if it were simply updated and expanded.

There are two other identical Dutch colonials across the street that have been preserved and have had beautiful spacious additions to accommodate what we now consider to be what we want to buy.

Uh keeping the front facade and renovating the interior would keep that great character.

Uh and the curb appeal that uh Delray is known for.

Uh I might add that a renovated single-family home may garner the same price as two units combined, as is evidenced by a single family home just a couple doors down.

The second reason that I oppose building a duplex is because it would adversely impact neighbors on the block as follows.

Uh, two new homes in place of one would greatly impact parking on Raymond Avenue.

Two additional curb cuts means too fewer parking spots uh for existing residents.

Already the parking on Raymond is abysmal.

Most homes on East Raymond have multiple cars, but not all homes have driveways.

With a very successful restaurant a block away, there's no chance of getting a parking spot if you return anytime after 4 30.

Also, our neighborhood is built on a high water table, and Delray is notorious for having basements flood.

To add more pavement paving to 114, which is what I expect will be new drivers uh driveways, may cause further water problems, and I would be concerned that it would impact our property.

I'm also concerned about the aesthetics of a modern duplex fitting into the Delray style.

While I don't have insight to Bluestone's plans, many of the teardowns being replaced with duplexes in the neighborhood don't have that Delray curb appeal.

People move to Delray for a reason for its uniqueness and early 2020th century century charm.

That it's all right.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

That's the end of other speakers.

Okay.

I'll take a motion to close the public hearing.

Move to close the public hearing.

I'll second that.

I have a motion by Vice Chair Kennig and a second by Commissioner Ramirez.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Opposed.

Motion carries six zero.

And that brings us to commissioner discussion.

Who'd like to kick off?

Madam Chairman, if I might direct a query to the staff in terms of what response they might be able to share with us, uh, especially in terms of this first concern about that the existing home shouldn't be demolished.

If I might direct a query to the staff in terms of what response they might be able to share with us, especially in terms of this first concern about that the existing home shouldn't be demolished.

Is there any existing mechanism by which the community can affect a kind of a preservation requirement on this?

Currently there's no locally regulated historic district in this area.

I know it's been talked about for a long time.

Because there's no there's nothing in our ordinance that protects it.

In terms of what the community could do, they have to, it has to be community-led if they do want to create a historic district.

I don't know the complete process, but I do know it has to be come from the community itself to put that historic district in place and get it voted upon by council.

Correct.

We're just looking at the actual lot dimensions and if it fits with the character of the other lots in the area.

Just because we have different zone requirements for single unit versus semi-detached in this zone.

There are different law requirements.

I'm sorry, it becomes clear that the practical effect of the subdivision is to lay out a path where redevelopment can only occur by virtue of demolishing the existing house.

So whether from staff's perspective and in terms of planning and zoning interactions with Board of Architectural Review, and I with all due respect for the fact that it's it needs to be a citizen-led process to change the rules in any way, the sort of underlying planning and observation of the evolution of the neighborhood.

There's something happening here that's not an intended consequence.

And the observations that are made by our citizen testifying tonight are a clear indication of the fact that that's not an insignificant impact on the neighborhood and whether there's some way that that gets evaluated or wound into long-term thinking about how Delray should evolve.

Thank you.

Any other commissioner comments?

Holly, I see your mic on, but I don't know if that's you asking to talk.

Okay.

All right.

Um thank you, Vice Chair Canig.

Um yeah, I I'm in support of the application on its strict merits as a subdivision application.

And I think it's just important.

Um there's there are multiple kinds of decision that we see that sometimes are conflated with other things that are ramifications of the decision.

And um, and we don't have a means to evaluate neighborhood fit in that way in a subdivision approval.

Um but I really appreciate your observations that there are potentially things that neighborhoods can do together as um uh in concert with one another to change the rule book, so to speak, about what what happens as things uh as the community ages, frankly, and um things like this become more possible as each of the buildings age and new new owners um come into the neighborhood and maybe have different a different set of priorities or values.

Um yeah, so I I don't have any um any objections on the merits of the subdivision itself.

together as um uh in in concert with one another to change the rule book so to speak about what what happens as things uh as the community ages frankly and um things like this become more possible as each of the buildings age and new new owners um come into the neighborhood and maybe have different a different set of priorities or values um and yeah so i i don't have any um any objections on the merits of the subdivision itself madam chairman i'd be willing to move approval of subdivision twenty twenty six zero zero zero zero five for one fourteen east Raymond Avenue All right I have a motion to approve sub the subdivision do I have a second second all right I have a second by Commissioner Ramirez all those in favor please say aye.

Aye opposed motion carries six zero and that brings us to docket item five docket item number five special use permit twenty twenty six zero zero zero one nine 1010 and 1020 Princess Street and 331 North Henry Street public hearing and consideration of a request for a special use permit for the conversion of a noncompliant structure for um commercial to residential use with yard and open space modifications property is zoned CL commercial low the apple applicant is old Creek homes LLC represented by Duncan Blair attorney good evening uh Sam Shelby here planning and zoning um as Kendra said this is uh property uh 1020 Princess Street it's actually a assemblage of assemblages assemblage of parcels with different addresses um and it's a request basically to convert uh an existing office building to a residential building and um it needs reductions from the yard and open space requirements because of where the building is built and because when the building was built as a commercial building it wasn't subject and uh to these requirements so converting it requires relief from these these specific requirements um we are in support of this application because it reactivates a an underutilized office building um and that the yard and open space reductions requested would not create off site impacts so this is uh in the Braddock Road metro uh neighborhood um it's zoned commercial low and it's surrounded by a number uh a variety of uses residential and office and retail and there's a place of worship on on Route 1 nearby too.

Um the building was built in the late uh or the 1980s and it's uh a primarily vacant office building today and again the the request is a a special use permit request to convert an existing building um the applicant proposes a four unit multi-unit dwelling um previously the applicant had proposed an 11 unit dwelling and that has been reduced to four um they would be sort of arranged like townhouses um and divided vertically into four units um as I mentioned the applicant has requested reductions from the yard and open space requirements because the building is basically built to the lot lines there was no requirement for it to provide setbacks when it was built and the zoning ordinance doesn't have requirements like that for commercial buildings today so only residential buildings really are subject to setbacks um and only residential uses are subject to open space requirements so again to convert the building um and to keep it the way it is it needs these reductions from those requirements the applicant proposes um rooftop open space uh each unit would have access to a terrace that's about 230 square feet each other than that there aren't a bunch of changes to the exterior of the building um just main mainly some facade refinements and changes to the roof to accommodate this rooftop open space so generally there's no change to the building height or footprint um and I will mention this is in the Parker Gray Historic District and because of the extent of the changes um proposed this would require BAR approval and so you're seeing a little bit less or maybe a slightly l more drafty version of the of the elevations you or than you ordinarily would that because this is going through another city board for final review and approval um the the application materials include kind of an idea what it's going to look like but final design and decisions are up to the the BAR here.

The applicant would provide or the the site does provide currently four off street parking spaces that are accessed by the alley that's perpendicular to Princess Street and those would be uh maintained for the use of residents of future residents.

We found that this is consistent with the small area plan um which uh has goals that essentially prescribe a kind of an active but lower density mixed use neighborhood in this immediate area um there would be no impact kind of the neighborhood feel because the building is basically staying kind of as is it would look very similar to the way it does now the side yard and open space reductions are both necessary because otherwise essentially to meet these requirements the building would have to be demolished in order to meet the setback requirement on the south side the building would have to be demolished to to meet that requirement um and w uh with the proposal of providing rooftop open space we are uh and then given the number of units provided we we're we feel that the open space uh is is reasonably met the applicant has made a is it's infeasible to meet the requirement oops I don't it's infeasible to meet the requirement um and the the space that's provided on the rooftop is sufficient outdoor open space for each of the residents that would future residents that would live there

Um with the proposal of providing rooftop open space, we are uh and then given the number of units provided, we we're we feel that the open space uh is is reasonably met.

The applicant has made a is it's infeasible to meet the requirement.

Oops, I don't it's infeasible to meet the requirement um and the space that's provided on the rooftop is sufficient outdoor open space for each of the residents that would future residents that would live there.

Um because of these things there would be minimal off-site impacts um to infrastructure or parked or other public facilities given the low number of units that are proposed.

Um because this is a special use permit enabled conversion per the Office of Residential Conversion Policy, um the applicant will make a 12,000 dollar contribution, voluntary contribution to the housing trust fund.

And as with many of our conversion special use permits, these buildings were designed for office users 40 years ago, which have different expectations and needs than residents in 2026.

And so their conditions concluded by our Office of Environmental Quality to ensure that a noise study is conducted to make sure that you know especially because this building is right on Route 1, which is a busy and trucks are prohibited from being on the GW parkway, that future residents are are protected from unnecessary vibration or noise, and so changes to the building like windows or um insulation or that kind of thing may be needed to to make sure that that all uh that the residents are not unduly impacted.

Uh we are recommending approval um and I'm here to answer any questions anybody has.

Thank you.

Um I have a question.

So you noted in your description that the applicant started with a design that had 11 units and then changed it to four.

Can you describe why?

So we we met with the applicant and discussed um the originally the 11 units were proposed.

The building the zone has no restriction on the total number of units there.

Um so it's gonna be a partial answer from I can give the city's perspective on why that changed, but um the applicant probably could fill in a little bit there too.

But we were identifying uh a threshold sort of concern with the number of units and the uh the amount of open space that was available, that if there were this many units and only um this amount of rooftop open space available for the for the site kind of generally, then it might make more sense to have fewer fewer units here.

Um is there a an open space requirement expectation associated with our office to residential conversions beyond just try your best?

I mean, because we're clearly giving an open space reduction approval here if we recommend that.

Um it's it the way the policy is written is that the the entirety of the special use permit considerations can apply.

So it's it's basically weighing out off-site impacts.

But the primary way to get even through the door is that the applicant has to demonstrate that it's infeasible to meet the baseline requirement.

So we didn't exempt conversion applications from open space requirements, but they do have to demonstrate that it's not possible.

Right.

And in this case, it's virtually impossible with 11 units, but some open space is providable with four, and staff are more comfortable with that package.

Um is it your sense that um I I I don't know how to ask this.

Um did how did staff weigh the value of having more units that were smaller units in this area to the value of each unit having open space in the design that ended up coming forward?

I'm not sure I can say with confidence that that was like a specific, you know, consideration.

It was just there's not enough open space, maybe for I don't know if there was like a a formula or a specific thought process of 11 units with no open space versus four, you know, just if you can bring a if you can bring the proposal closer to complying, it's usually better that having some open space is better than zero.

Um it's not a very satisfying answer.

Well, it's an it's it's not, but it's interesting because it points at how influential our expectations are, even when we set parameters for waiv them, and we have um maybe conflicting policies across the city that are telling us to do different things in your charged with somehow figuring out the right balance.

Yeah.

Um thank you for that.

Um other questions for staff.

All right.

Um do we have public speakers?

We do.

Excuse me.

I had my hand raised.

Oh, sorry.

Sorry, Jody.

It's okay.

No problem.

No problem.

Sam is the four parking spaces.

Is that kind of normal with four units of this type in this area?

The zoning ordinance doesn't require any off-street parking for uh multi-units with four or fewer units.

Um but it does you know end up if there were a parking requirement, this would meet the the parking.

Well, it wouldn't technically meet the parking requirement because the spaces are compact.

So it it's a little bit of a mixed bag here.

The the parking is not required.

If it were required, it wouldn't comply, but the number of units, the number of spaces compared to the number of units works out.

Okay.

And hard to believe an office building was constructed with only four parking spaces.

So thanks very much.

Yep.

Okay.

Uh our single speaker is Dino Drudy, and that will be followed by the applicant's representative.

All right.

He will be followed by Duncan Blair.

Dina?

Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I'm the president of the West Old Town Citizens Association.

This particular application has required an extensive amount of due diligence on the Citizens Association's part.

We met with staff Thursday, and after the meeting, out came that memo revising and correcting the number of units.

This has greatly impacted our ability to for the West Old Town Board to decide how to put this in front of whether we can decide it on our own or does it have to go to the membership, you know, blast it out through social media, et cetera.

Um certainly four rather than eleven has made us the Citizens Association much more predisposed toward this project.

And the applicant's attorney has been very open and uh very open with us and very accommodating.

Regrettably staff's decision earlier this year to no longer give special briefings to the Federation of Civic Associations, which gives us more leave, which would have given us considerably amount more lead time, has forced us to rush these due diligence questions so close and has complicated the deliberations.

I want to make clear that the due diligence, although it is extensive, does not imply that the Citizens Association in any way opposes this project.

The board is still looking at it.

But I wanted to reassure the planning commission that the extensive due diligence that this has required is not a ref uh a negative reflection on the project itself or the four units which are which simplify the due diligence and make the Citizens Association more amenable to this particular project.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Good evening, Duncan Blair, representing Old Creek Homes on this application.

I appreciate Mr.

Drudy's uh complimenting me on reaching out to him and talking to him on numerous occasions, provided as much information as I could.

This project is a good project.

Uh sorry to see this business focused at a solution uh realizing it did not need the space.

They were our tech firm.

Um they are surviving, they are moving.

So this is a good adaptive reuse to put four townhouses into a residential neighborhood.

Uh four townhouses as opposed to a dozen units.

And as you be as the builder Old Creek home began to define and look at very closely.

You know, eleven units more is not always better.

Um there was so much infrastructure that needed to go in.

The units just got smaller.

And so then it was went back and re-looked at what was potentially an original premise was four townhouses.

And while we haven't found the site plan, this was originally built to be four townhouse offices.

So it's really going back to the townhouse form.

Uh the BAR will look at all the exterior architectural features.

And as part of the urban environment, we think that the providing open space, which was also a driver of this change, uh creates an urban living environment that will be enjoyed by the residents and hopefully be good neighbors to the community.

Glad to answer any questions.

Thank you very much.

Are there any questions for the applicant?

Thank you.

It doesn't look like there are any questions.

All right.

Do I have a motion to close the public hearing?

Move to close the public hearing.

I have a motion by um Vice Chair Canning and a second by Commissioner Dubay to close the public hearing.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Opposed?

Motion carries 6-0, and that brings us to Commissioner discussion.

Yeah, Commissioner Dubay.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I just have a question for staff.

Can you comment on what Dino was talking about with the briefings that you no longer do?

Is that a different format for that or is that?

So we used to brief the Alexandria Federation of Civic Associations, and we pivoted to a more encompassing and more a wider audience regular standing meeting where we go over all the cases that are coming up before a public hearing.

That's that's my understanding.

I don't know if Director Uh Soddard wants to kind of add to that a little bit.

Yeah, that's correct.

I'm I'm I'm happy to build on Sam's point.

So uh one of the things we learned uh more recently in some of our smaller planning efforts uh is that broader based uh engagement approaches uh got us to a wider variety of uh viewpoints uh and allowed more people to engage in the conversation.

So uh as we've uh done in the director's report, we've highlighted our ongoing uh planning and zoning uh bi-monthly meeting series.

Uh of course we always advertise the the most recent meeting as well as the next upcoming meeting date in our planning director's report.

Uh and all of the past recordings are available uh on the planning and zoning website.

And so uh with that now being uh a practice that we have now going for about a year, uh we made the decision earlier this year to stand down those recurring briefings specifically to the Civic Federation and put more of our effort into those broader based approaches with the the bi-monthly community meeting series.

Uh absent anyone else's commentary, I'll just offer that I'm in support of the application.

Um I think it is just fine as a project like this in this location.

Um my questions around the number of units was not uh I just want to be clear, it's not a direct critique in the sense that I have any confidence that an 11 unit project would be better here, and I can appreciate that fitting eleven units with all of the things that they have to duplicate and the nature of um that that existing structure could be a lot more challenging.

It's more this question of the priorities, um, like what our evaluation criteria are, how staff have to look at the project and the things you're trying to fit into a project.

And having recently um adopted our 2040 housing master plan and thinking about what targets we might anticipate coming forward through a public process so we can see as a community where we're headed in terms of housing production and affordable housing production in particular, it it all it strikes me as an interesting question how we handle office to residential conversions generally and when we are asked to weigh um certain the provision of certain things on a site over others, more units or more open space, potentially in this case open space and parking that that better matches the unit number, but wouldn't have matched as well if it had come forward as an 11 unit project.

Um but an 11 unit project provides smaller, potentially more affordable units for a different price point and a different um type of resident.

Um it it poses an interesting question, not one that causes me any concern in approving this um reuse.

And it's always fun to see how we can be creative about our existing structures, make the most of them, um, and bring new life into the corners of our neighborhoods.

Yes.

Commissioner Ramirez, just wanted to express as well my support for the project.

I I think honestly, looking at it and thinking about the contrast between 11 units versus four units.

Part of me thinks about the conversions that we have for office to residential.

And where I probably get my biggest heart palpitations are thinking about the existing structure that was originally proposed for an office use, so commercial use versus what I know as kind of Swiss cheese that comes with those structure that's needed for supporting all the infrastructure to for residential use.

We see these row houses all throughout Old Town, all through the Parker Gray District.

It feels like it it's gonna is gonna fall right in there, you know, and it's just moving a couple of door locations where you know a little bit of the um window rhythm, um, but otherwise the uh the typology um doesn't stray very far.

So excited to see another conversion going on in Old Town.

Yes, Vice Chair Kenny.

I am also in support of the project, and I move to recommend that council approve special use permit 2026 00019 for 1010 and 1020 Princess Street and 331 North Henry Street.

A second.

All right, I have a motion by Vice Chair Kennedy and a second by Commissioner Ramirez to recommend approval of this special use permit.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Opposed?

Motion carries six zero.

Thank you.

Thank you.

All right, that brings us to Docket Item 6, special use permit 2026.

Docket item number six, special use permit 2026, 00018, 5601 and 5603 Courtney Avenue and 720, 730, and 750 South Van Dorn Street.

Public hearing and consideration of a request for a special use permit for a five-year extension to continue operations of an asphalt plant.

Amending SUP 2017 97.

Property is zone I industrial.

The applicant is Virginia Paving Company, represented by Ken Wire, attorney.

Hello.

Uh good evening.

My name is Rachel Dresher, Department of Planning and Zoning.

So this is a request to extend a sunset date for an asphalt plant, SUP from January 1st, 2027 to January 1st, 2032.

The property is located at 5601 Courtney Avenue and zoned I industrial.

It's surrounded by a mix of residential, commercial, and industrial uses, and is located in the floodplain.

Some brief background on the SUP.

So an asphalt plant has been operating at this location since 1960 with an SUP.

In the early 2000s, the SUP was brought back to City Council in response to a request to operate have trucks operating at night.

And this was a result of complaints that the city had received.

At this point, City Council did approve the SUP, but they added extensive conditions related to noise, odor, air quality, stormwater, and landscaping.

An additional condition was also added to bring the SUP back for review once the Eisenhower West small area plan was adopted.

In 2015, this plan was adopted.

And in 2019, City Council re-reviewed the SUP, found that it that the use was incompatible with the small Eisenhara West small area plan, and they set a sunset date for closure on January 1st, 2027.

So in evaluating this request, staff looked at four different considerations.

Staff reviewed the small area plan redevelopment in the area, compliance history since the prior approval, and the public benefit.

In terms of the Eisenhower West small area plan, a heavy industrial asphalt plan continues to be inconsistent with the long-term vision of the plan.

The plan envisions this area to be mixed use district with residential and commercial uses.

The site is located in the floodplain, and any redevelopment would require considerable environmental remediation.

The property is currently zoned industrial, so closing the business does open the site up to other industrial uses.

In terms of area redevelopment, our current market trends, construction costs, and raising interest rates have slowed development activity overall.

So while currently the surrounding uses do remain relatively unchanged since the 2019 approval, there are expected to be some land use chips, most notably the LENAR mixed use development within the next few years, and there still are residential uses in the area.

As the ongoing projects are developed, the character of the area will change the context of the site.

Staff also looked at the compliance history since the 2019 approval.

The city does conduct an annual inspection every year, and they have there have been no violations of the SUP in the last seven years.

And finally, with public benefit, uh, this is an employer in the city, and the business does support local and regional PAVE needs.

So if the extension is approved, staff is recommending the following revised conditions.

So condition number one is a reduction in the asphalt production caps from 980,000 tons annually to 600,000 tons annually, and this is based on their past production and expected future production.

Condition number nine, it's uh no asphalt production where air quality is code red or worse.

Uh condition 60 is related to the South Van Dorn Street Bridge, which this property is abutting.

Uh it's planned to be expanded, and we are uh recommending a condition for them to maintain the landscape up for between the street and the operations along with removing invasive trees.

Uh condition 67 is the sunset date condition.

Uh and staff is recommending to add language requiring a closure plan two years prior to the sunset date.

Condition 70, uh Courtney Avenue improvements for general public.

Uh, this is also related to the LENAR site, uh, as we are expecting uh more pedestrian use, conduct connecting that site with Courtney Avenue and adding sidewalks and landscape buffering, and then condition 71 uh installing doors on the asphalt loading facility.

Um this was something that the applicant offered to do.

So uh staff is recommending approval of the five-year extension with the recommended conditions.

Uh we find the applicant does have a proven compliance history since 2019, and the requested extension does not alter the long-term land use designation.

It allows for a continued interim use of the property under our highly regulated SUP while market conditions improve and the adjacent site is redeveloped, and we find that five years balances the current reality of the area with the future context of the surrounding development.

I'm happy to answer any questions at this point.

Thank you very much.

Are there questions for staff?

Yes, um a question relative to the uh condition one proposal about production um caps.

Just to make sure I'm understanding um the information that we discussed a little bit in the briefing.

The this annual cap, how does it compare this newly proposed annual cap of 600,000 tons?

How does that compare to the way production has actually been running over the last few years?

So they've been from from our annual reports, they've been uh operating around the 300 mark, and that can go up to 450.

Depending on size of a project, they've uh the applicant has explained to staff that this could be higher depending on feed off projects and other city-related projects.

Okay, so would I be correct in understanding that the intent of the modification to the CAP is to sort of acknowledge the reality of lower levels of production of recent years and still allow for the possibility that there would be a bit of a peak above that recent average, but to establish an overall cap that's lower than the 900 and some odd thousand before.

That is correct.

So it's about it's not about attempting to generate any actual reduction of production, it's just about right sizing the cap.

Right.

Okay.

Thank you.

Are there other questions for staff?

Yes, Commissioner Dubay.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The the five-year was that proposed, was that something you guys negotiated or was it they came to you with five, and that was you didn't say about one or two or so this this was the applicant's request.

Um I think staff is comfortable, and this was kind of the max that staff was comfortable with with the uh improvements that are happening along the Van Dorn Street Bridge and the Lenar site.

Okay, thank you.

Actually, Madam Chairman, I think.

Yes, yep.

Um a process question.

So if this extension were not to be approved, what happens on January 1, 2027?

Uh they would be required to not no longer operate.

So uh between now and January 1st, uh they most likely would we would need to see that they're shutting down.

Uh there's some I think state permits that they will need to show that they are closing operation.

Um but yep, they've no longer operating by January 1st.

Okay, so the site effectively becomes dormant.

Is the property owner at that point have options for reanimating the property in some way that doesn't require an SUP?

Uh so the site would be opened up to any of the industrial uses that are allowed by right.

Um so that would include uh go down use, but any sort of storage, uh manufacturing, um some commercial uses are are allowed in the industrial zone.

Yeah.

So um and in that sense it would be like any other use that if someone came in with uh proposal to modify their business license to accommodate a buy right use as long as they were in then actually going to operate completely within the constraints of the by right limits and not cross into any threshold that requires another SUP, they can proceed on that basis.

Right, yeah, no land use report.

Um could they actually come back with the proposed alternative use that is different but still requires an SUP?

Yes, yes.

So they could come back with any again, any of the industrial SUPs that are listed in the I zone.

Okay.

Um and one last variation on that.

Um if uh this owner and other came back to uh to propose another use.

What are the requirements and what is the expectation for the condition of the abandoned no longer operational plant that it's on the property?

Um just to make sure I'm understanding just what happens to the SUP conditions.

No, I'm sorry, what do we do we have a sense of assuming that what actually happens on January 1, 2027 is that work just doesn't commence that day.

What from that point on, what's the physical reality of the plant and the architecture and the physical equipment that's on the site?

Uh so it could just remain there.

Um yeah, becomes a vacant site, vacant equipment, yeah.

Okay.

And somebody coming in to make a new operational use that is by rate, they presumably would have some requirements to make sure that the site is safe, appropriate, and legal for its uses, which may or may not involve adjusting or modifying the equipment that's already there.

Uh yes.

So most likely a building permit would be required.

Any sort of um changes to the site might require a site plan uh which would trigger some stormwater requirements and other city requirements.

Okay.

Thank you.

I have a question for council.

Um we got a one of the comment letters on this item was a community member expressing concern about the way that Planning Commission interacts with applicants.

I'm not sure if it goes beyond that, but but it seemed to be a sort of procedural question on communications that we have on docket items.

Um are you familiar with that?

And can you clear it?

The language used was ex parte communication between an applicant and members of the planning commission.

There is no there are no legal limits and there's no legal restriction on the ability of planning commission members to speak to applicants, to speak to staff or to speak to any members of the public about a pending application.

Okay.

Okay.

Um thank you for for clarifying that.

And and I I got the feeling sometimes it's what you feel in the writing.

I got the feeling that that the main concern was the transparency around it.

Um although using terms ex parte sounds legal, which is why I'm asking you about it, and I'm not um uh I I can't wax eloquent on the legal stuff.

Um, but I can appreciate a concern for transparency, and we try very hard to make ourselves accessible to applicants and community members on all the items that come before us.

So um staff are actually the way you reach us.

And um I just want to make that clear that on any item that we see before us, community members that were related to that item can reach us through staff to um attempt to have us come out to see the site with them and have conversations and that kind of thing.

Um great.

Let's move to uh Commissioner Manner's hand raised.

Great, thank you.

Commissioner Manner.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Um Rachel, you were very kind to uh answer some questions I had this afternoon.

I just want to clarify that the applicant has received no viable offers to purchase the property.

Is that correct?

Uh that that is what the applicant has informed staff, yes.

Okay, all right, thank you.

All right.

We can open the public comment period.

I have one final question.

Our first speaker.

Yeah, yeah, before it last minute question.

Um again to speak about the future of the site.

Um if um a buyer came and wanted to make it residential, there would be a rezoning process then.

Uh yes.

Yeah, there'd be a rezoning process.

Um yeah, depending on what they wanted to do with the site, it might require other SUPs.

Um I just wanted to note as part of the zoning for housing, housing for all, housing is permitted in industrial zones.

However, it is in the floodplain, which um put some other challenges for residential uses.

So all of those things would need to be taken into account.

And that would also be true if um an industrial use was moving in there.

All right, okay.

Yep.

Our first speaker is Richard Greenberg, followed by Martin Minnes, followed by Hernando Garzon.

Richard Greenberg.

Okay.

I'm gonna go ahead and Mom Richard, can you speak?

Oh sorry.

Yes, can you hear me?

Yes, we've got you now.

Okay.

Uh thank you all very much for your time this evening.

Um my name is Rich Greenberg, and I'm a principal with Green Hill Capital based out of Bethesda, Maryland.

Uh we are the owner of 23 acres, roughly 23 acres adjacent to this site.

Um if you may or may not recall back in 2018-2019, I sat in front of this commission and worked with staff towards the approval of two separate CDDs, totaling 3.1 million square feet of mixed-use redevelopment.

Uh I can tell you that ince that time, any and all interested parties, whether they were users, investors, partners, etc., have all raised concern with the current status of the plant, uh, not just for its eyesore, but obviously um air quality and and and other issues.

So therefore, um our site will not be moving forward or cannot uh move forward while that uh the plant is in its current condition.

Um and I would also just like to respond to uh the comment or the question and comment that was just made about no interest in the property.

While I am aware of some current interest in the property, I can tell you that we Green Hill made at least one, if and I believe two separate written offers of interest to purchase the property through our council from Eurovia, neither of which were ever responded to.

Um but therefore we are in opposition of um you know stretching this out for another five years.

Uh and um we would like to see it uh clean shut down and cleaned up, you know, as soon as possible.

Thank you.

So again, thank you for your time.

Appreciate it.

Thank you.

Our next speaker is Martin Minnes, followed by Hernando Garzon, followed by Joyce Sullivan.

Martin Minnesota.

Good evening, Commissioners, and uh thank you for coming out on this stormy night uh to do the uh the work of the business.

Uh I, however, am disappointed to be here tonight.

And uh I tell you why.

Um I think that the that the uh well think about seven and seven.

Seven years ago, this SUP was renewed.

Uh and over 90 percent of the time into this now, that is to say, seven months left on that seven years.

Here we are at the 11th hour talking about this.

Um it's sweet.

Um it's we we and by the way, I I I just wanted uh to say also, even though I'm part of the uh Cameron Station Civic Association and had a hand in the correspondence as you've already seen, I'm speaking tonight as a as a homeowner of Cameron Station as an individual.

Just wanted to make that clear.

Um I and some of the other homeowners feel like we've sort of had the rug pulled out from under us, and that there's a reluctance on the part of the cities, and namely the staff, and and uh you've seen the presentation to abide by an agreement already made.

In other words, we're letting Virginia uh paving uh off the hook.

There's a commitment on the part of the city via this SUP from 2019 uh to the residents for all the reasons that you've already seen in the correspondence.

Uh and I don't need to go into the incompatibility with the various uh documents and work that others have done in the uh the Eisenhower's uh West Small and West Area Plan, Eisenhower, West Small Area Plan, the uh landmark Van Dorn Corridor plan, and of course the Eisenhower West Landmark Van Dorn implementation advisory group.

All of those had uh content that would is incompatible looking in the future with the status quo.

So uh not only do in our view uh does uh the city not need exclusively uh Virginia pavings asphalt, there are there are other suppliers available.

Uh but also as uh as Mr.

Uh uh Greenberg has just mentioned, there are other outfits that want to use this property.

It's not like it's not wanted or we're gonna would lie fallow.

So we think this is a lack of advocacy uh on the part of the city for the citizenry versus the economic gain of Virginia paving.

And you know, I just did some back of the envelope uh tax calculations of the eighteen hundred or so r residences in Cameron Station, uh although they're they uh everyone is not as fortunate to have a townhouse like mine, you know, we're talking about fifteen million dollars worth of taxes.

Uh that that we we in Cameron Station contribute to to the city.

And finally, I'll just say that uh uh if the city still goes ahead with this, we would recommend that it not be five years, but rather a one-year maximum extension.

Thank you very much.

And they need to get get going.

Our next speaker is Hernando Garzon, followed by Joyce Sullivan, followed by Mindy Lyle.

Hernando Garzon.

He could unmute Fernando.

Uh you'll need to unmute your mic.

Are you able to unmute him, Ted?

Okay, we'll come back.

We'll circle back.

Um our next speaker.

Let me see.

Now it's better.

Oh, yes, there you go.

Okay, thank you.

Uh okay.

Um a few points here.

Um I'm a little bit surprised with the analysis that has been done as of now to uh sort of extend the SU the SUP that has been extended so many times on the I'm an economist, and I look at this from an economic point of view.

I don't think there is not any city in the world where you talk to the drivers and say, well, we're we are going to sign an agreement that you don't cross uh yellow red lights.

No, that's not done.

If you cross the yellow line, a red line, it only costs you X.

And that means enforcement of the terms of an agreement.

Because I I have no idea exactly what does it cost to have an SUP.

I have no idea how much does it cost to violate a UP on SUP.

So basically, it seems to me that the system of incentives or disincentives are totally failing.

Uh there are not incentives for them to move out or that area.

And there are the incentive for them is to stay there because of course the price of land is increasing uh constantly, not because of their efforts, but because of the population growth and the development of uh housing since the 1960s.

In the 1960s, this plant was in in the middle of nowhere.

Why?

Because that probably was the perfect location for a plan like this type.

But then what happens?

There was urban growth, there was population growth, there are house and development, commercial development, many other things.

And this then this plan ended up in the middle of residential and commercial areas in a place that is totally inadequate for this type of activity.

So that's not the I'm not blaming the plant.

I don't I mean this happens.

Uh urban growth happens.

Nobody's at fault on that.

But we would be at fault if we don't enforce adequate urban plan.

Um so we have to look at the system of incentives and disincentives, otherwise we're standing for one year or five years, and then the same story is going to repeat it's is going to repeat because uh why?

Because there is there's no penalties.

Then there are no I mean you could correct me on that, but I would like to know what are the penalties.

Um negative externalities in the neighborhood, and in the neighborhood is the way it is.

It's partly because many activities, economic activities don't know don't want to uh locate near this plant.

So maybe mechanics in their garages probably once they were using we are the neighborhood of this area.

Um they are willing to put to put up with that.

And now, when I hear about that the that the owner is going to leave the plan, and that this is gonna be abandoned and it's gonna be an obstacle.

Uh that in immediately lacks some kind of economic analysis.

There is an opportunity cost for a Mr.

Garzon, yes, your your time is up tonight.

Okay.

Thank you.

Well, thank you for listening.

Thank you so much.

Our next our next speaker is Joyce Sullivan, followed by Mendy Lyle, followed by followed by Dell Pepper.

Good evening, everyone.

I own a condo at 400 Cameron Station uh Boulevard, and um we bought the condo with the understanding that um Virginia Paving was going to be closing.

I'm not able to open my windows um in the morning um because of um the smell, the noxious smell of asphalt.

And although I would love I have a little balcony and I would love to have coffee out there, um, but I'm not able to do that uh because I would have to be smelling asphalt, which is very unpleasant.

And um it really does impact the quiet enjoyment of my property, and I'm just really perplexed why five years uh more would make any difference.

I had I had to actually contacted the mayor because I noticed that nothing seemed to be happening with their transitioning um and closing um their operation.

And um uh but but I just I just don't have any faith that another five years will help them to get ready because I'm not sure that their intention is to ever leave.

Um and you know, we're about I uh uh uh my uh building is right next to Tucker, which is about a football field away from the asphalt plant, and it it is just so difficult to um you know have to smell that smell when I'm trying to go for a walk or um you know just have the quiet enjoyment of my house.

Something that we haven't mentioned is the traffic from the very slow moving trucks is also very hard on Van Dorn, especially going up that street um to 495, and there are a lot of trucks that come and go.

So um I think um that giving Virginia Paving more time, I just have no faith that it's going to result in um any kind of uh movement forward with the closure.

So thank you.

Thank you very much.

Our next speaker is Mindy Lyle, followed by Dell Pepper.

Hi, I'm Mendy Lyle.

I'm a resident of Cameron Station.

My involvement in the Eisenhower West began with the 2009 industrial use study.

It continued because I was chair of the Eisenhower West small area plan advisory group.

We made a huge mistake with the small area plant.

That was the first plan that we did not rezone properties in the area.

All other plans up to that point, we did a rezoning with approval of the small area plant.

Had we done that, we would probably not have been here in 2019 or tonight.

Right now we're seeing significant progress in the Eisenhower West area.

There are multiple sites on Eisenhower West under control, under construction and development.

We have Vulcan that will probably begin construction within 10 months.

Right now it's in the compaction stage.

I know you saw the email from the owners.

And even in the broader West End, we're seeing a lot of progress, even though everyone says this is a difficult economic time.

It's a place where people want to go to not to say that Virginia Paving has been a community partner.

They've been a good community partner since we did the SUP and got rid of most of the violations early on.

But in less than a year, when construction starts on this Vulcan site, we're gonna have more construction traffic combined with, as someone just said, truck traffic from Virginia paving that's constant and has been a constant during paving season.

One of the issues is we've said it's been said by staff that they're in total compliance with their SUP, but actually they're not because the SUP called for closing plans to begin two years ago.

No closing plans have been submitted to date.

It also required that they um notify the city of any letters of interest on the property.

That never was done.

So they're actually in violation of a couple of minor conditions.

But here's my suggestion.

I don't believe that they can close by January 1st.

I think they've pushed this to the limit and it isn't gonna happen.

I think a one-year extension is fair, which keeps them in compliance with their SUP.

It allows them to close.

Can I have one more second?

Um, but I'd also ask that you do a rezoning at another condition and rezone the property immediately upon closing to a mixed-use zone of some sort so that we don't end up with a by-right industrial use on that site.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Our final speaker before the applicants representation is Dell Pepper.

This is fantastic.

Okay.

Now I'll be as fast as I can.

Because I know you want to move on.

I don't know how much time I have, so I'll be quick.

Let me begin by saying that the docket uh item uh that the uh planning uh commission put together was really excellent.

I felt that it was uh well and that it was a real effort to be as fair as you possibly could.

Anyway, I appreciated it.

I'm not sure everybody else did, but I did.

Anyway, let me begin.

I was part of that city council that voted to give Virginia paving a five-year extension.

We never meant for them to come back and ask for another extension.

That was it.

Five years, final no more.

Amen.

And I have to say I do understand what the planning department is saying, that they're thinking that the economy is going to be so bad, and therefore, if we we need to have something in place uh so we have some kind of an income, and so uh we might as well keep the Virginia paving.

Well, as long as they are occupying this present location, they make it less attractive for developers to make bids.

They don't know what they can count on if they keep getting, they don't know the the developers don't know what they can count on if we're constantly giving these extensions.

If this extension is granted, we will be in the same situation as we are in right now, only we will have lost five years.

But I think the economy is going to improve within the next few years.

Even so, look at all the development that's happening right now.

Look across the street from Virginia paving.

And you've got Balkham, which is just blossoming.

It's truly taking off with a good bit of development.

And look at the development other parts around the hospital and on the present hospital grounds.

Look at the plans for the roadways and the bridges, all those improvements.

Well, I have lived in Alexandria for 58 years.

Can anyone talk that?

This is not.

This is a revolution.

I smell it.

Anyway, I want to thank, I didn't know how much time I'd have, so I wanted to thank Virginia Paving for trying to be a good neighbor.

But an industrial industrial use is not in this city's best interest.

And neither is the five-year extension that they have asked for tonight.

Enough is enough.

Thank you very much.

He said right to the point.

Right on time.

So dear.

That concludes our public speakers, uh, Ken Wire.

All right.

So good evening.

Good evening, Madam Chair, members of the planning commission.

I'm Ken Wire with the law firm WireGill representing Virginia Paving.

Um I first have to appreciate Ms.

Pepper and Miss Lyle showing up.

I first met them in 2009, and they're nothing but staunch advocates for the West End.

I sat on those planning commissions with them, and there's no doubt that this area is planned for something different.

There's no debate here.

Virginia Paving doesn't debate it.

We understand the community wants to see something different.

In fact, in all the entitlements I've done on the corridor, the number one question is when is something else coming?

In fact, I can't think of a case when something was proposed where people oppose development.

Um the question is, is this the right time and for what?

Um could staff go back to the arrow, if you don't mind on page three.

I just want to give a a very, very brief summary.

I do want to appreciate staff's analysis.

Um in 1960, this use first came to town, and obviously the use today, just to summarize what's happening on the site, it's important to remind everybody.

Aggregate comes to the site on train cars.

So we're bringing train cars to the site, we deliver the gravel.

We actually made a ring around the property to help shield the sound from um camera station.

It's not a hundred percent working, but if you go back there, it's actually uh relatively quiet compared to the other side of the pile where the heavy industrial um work and the asphalt loading and mixing begins.

We've spent time in the past extensions working on the green buffer that rings the site.

Um and in the past years, um we've employed up to 70 residents, I mean 70 total employees, depending upon the season, and as of March, 16 of those were Alexandrians.

As staff noted in 2017, 2019, there was a discussion about the correct extension.

In 2015, I sat on the committee.

We all had the plans that showed this as an office building and three different pads rung by res uh residential and retail.

The small area plan is no stranger to this inflection point of the changeover.

On page 13, it talks about the small area plan shall be responsive to changing economic conditions, and there was an expectation in 2015 that the industrial uses will relocate to cheaper locations.

And there's also a statement about trying to coexist as long as you could uh with the surrounding residential and the future development that was planned, which is anything but industrial.

Obviously, no one here needs a lecture from me about the 2019 approval and the seven-year set date.

But SUPs, you can come ask for an extension.

No one's barred from asking extension.

I can't bar someone for speaking, they can't ask me for not having an extension.

I would argue it's not a flaw in our system, it's the very point.

In 2019, you're out in 20 years unless something changes.

Staff had a staff report that was very clear talking about it was set on an expectation of a changing environment.

On the right-hand side up there, staff can correct me if I'm wrong, I don't know every site.

That picture is not one property different from when it was in 2019.

It's the same environment.

As a business owner, we hope it changes.

We hope there's high rises around us, Virginia Paving did not object to the master plan.

We knew we were being phased out.

But as Miss Lyle always does, she's very to the point.

She acknowledged we did not do a uh um a rezoning at that time.

That wasn't a mistake, that was the understanding.

We had operating industrial uses there.

We were not trying to run them out of town.

As your analysis goes forward tonight, there's a distinctive difference between the non-conforming use, which by definition is supposed to end as soon as possible, is different than a SUP under existing zoning.

Those are fundamental different parameters.

When you review your decision tonight, Section 11504B of the zoning ordinance lays out your parameters.

And unfortunately, it's just time is not one of those parameters.

It's compatibility.

Virginia Paving is not naive.

We knew coming up here asking for an indefinite approval or five-year or 20-year approval would be met with more score than we're getting tonight.

We proposed the five year, because we knew we were coming back and asking for extension.

In round numbers, there's a roughly two million dollars set of improvements we're doing.

Staff is no stranger to what's happening in the community.

We're setting back further from Van Dorn Street as that expands to allow for the Van Dorn widening.

The Courtney Avenue that loops around the 720, 730, and 750.

We're doing improvements there to turn that into a real road.

When you drive over there today, it looks like it's part of the plan.

It's actually public right-of-way.

So Virginia paving, the one thing they do do, they build roads.

So our discussion with staff is to make that loop around that um portion of the aggregate pile there, a city standard street with improvements and gating, and frankly, whatever the city wants to see in that right-of-way.

There's also um improvements to how the doors operate when a truck loads in and asphalt comes down.

Right now there's a negative pressure system, but the doors are open.

So it's effective, but it's not as effective as it could be if these rubber doors come down very quickly.

It won't get rid of the smell, but it will drastically reduce it.

And more modern plants are doing that.

The biggest improvement we're proposing is to rebuild the bag filter and repaint the plant to make it look better.

So the five years was a balance we have between two million dollars worth of improvements to try to mitigate the very concerns the community raised.

Is it one to one?

We'll all have different agreements, but that's the basis of it.

So you all should know why we proposed it and the underlying thought behind that.

It's also important to note that the multi-bodal bridge was gone.

That was this twenty twenty nineteen.

We weren't sure where that was going to go.

I sat in the Eisenhower West plans and there were five different alignments zigzagging all over the Virginia paving site.

Staff can correct me if I'm wrong, but now that's been removed.

It was a very expensive thing, and Van Dorn widening is the plan to try to address traffic along Van Dorn.

See here.

Floodplains are no trifle things.

There's a current ordinance right now underway to review it to raise it from one foot above the floodplain to two feet above.

That is a very complicated, expensive thing to work out.

This is a big flat site.

The issue is if you've been out there, back look run is channelized.

When Cameron station was built, it's channelized with concrete walls.

So if you filled those nine acres of floodplain, you'd have to prove, and Mr.

Mainson, correct me if I'm wrong, that you don't impact the floodplain by more than one-tenth of a foot upstream or downstream.

You can do that on the Potomac River.

That's very difficult to do that here.

I haven't done it.

We've talked to some civil engineers.

We haven't planned it, but it's a complicated thing to do.

Let me see.

So a couple of the other um uh questions about our are our uh uh the reason we came down from 900 and 980 tons down to 600 tons.

It is certainly above our current um current production of around 300 to 400 um tons.

The city and the BDOT are our biggest customer.

Most of us got here driving on a road, paved at Virginia paving.

There's no doubt there's an additional vision for this area to trans um form it into something else.

But we hope when you look at seven um section 11501, you understand that we're not against the repositioning of this neighborhood.

It should be repositioned.

We we're supportive of the Eisenhower West plan.

The question is what is fundamentally different now than in 2019?

And is the set of SUP conditions we proposed offsetting enough to allow us to have another five-year look?

We hope buildings are around us.

We hope Marriott's built, we hope Mr.

Greenberg has DSUPs coming forward, but they're not there today.

So I'll stop.

I know there's a lot we can talk about, but I want to give you the background.

Uh, Virginia paving um should also be noted no violations in the past seven years.

We did have a stormwater drain that got a little clogged after a flood, but we but we fixed that.

And no complaints in the past couple years.

We take seriously our community involvement.

We know the community would like us to leave town, but right now the environment is still the same, and we hope these SUP conditions, when you consider them, help mitigate our extension request.

So with there, Madam Chair, I'll pause and happy to answer any questions from you or fellow commissioners.

Thank you very much.

Are there questions for the applicant?

Yes, Commissioner DuVay.

Thank you, Mr.

Weyer, for that.

Um seven months before the expiration of this SUP and why did you wait till now to start this process or is that so I've done a little bit of work in the city in the past 20 years, and if I came in three years ahead, you would be you know, get get out the back door.

Could it have been three months before?

Sure.

Um my advice to clients generally is you want to come up within a year.

You don't want to come up in December.

You want to give enough time that should you defer us tonight for more conversation.

We have some time.

So uh we filed earlier this year my colleague, Mary, former colleague, Mary Catherine Gibbs filed, I think a couple months ago.

After working through staff, uh that's what worked out to be.

So it could always be sooner, but um I I found that coming in ridiculously early sort of makes you look a little foolish.

So we waited to start this discussion for the first quarter of 2026.

Any other questions for the applicant?

Well, thank you again for your time.

We're happy to answer any technical questions you may have and look forward to the discussion this evening.

Thank you very much.

I'll take a motion to close the public hearing.

Move to close the public hearing.

I have a motion by Vice Chair Canig and a second by Commissioner Ramirez to close the public hearing.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Opposed.

Motion carries six zero.

And that brings us to Commissioner discussion.

Um just checking out the thing.

All right, let's go.

Commissioner Dubai.

Uh I just have a couple things.

Uh one comment from Miss Lyles.

Can you comment on the um what she was talking about?

Was there a closure plan that was required two years ago?

And if so, or if not, where is it?

So uh in the past conditions, there was a condition that annually they needed to report on their reallocation and um any sort of interest in the property, um, specifically a closure plan.

I do not see that in any of the conditions.

It's a new, it's a new amendment to the current okay.

That was that was it for now.

Go ahead.

Vice Chair Kennedy.

Madam Chairman, just to follow up with another question to staff.

Um also referencing something that Ms.

Lyle said.

Uh she fluted a very uh intriguing proposition that I'd like to get your perspective on, which is the this property could potentially be rezoned through the mechanism of a modified condition to this SUP.

Is that actually something that's possible?

Uh so I believe like city council or planning commission has to initiate rezonings or the applicant has to reinitiate.

I can answer that question if you'd like.

Um so there is the the air Rachel is correct.

There is the ability for um a rezoning to be initiated by city council or by the planning commission.

Um that is a separate process and a separate approval, so that would require its own separate public hearing.

So if for instance you all wanted to initiate something like that, it would have to come back for public hearing after notice and and those sorts of things.

Right.

So the mechanism to initiate that is is not functionally doable with a modified condition in an SUP.

It would have to be a separate action.

It wouldn't be part it wouldn't necessarily be part of the SUP, it's a separate um step.

It's a separate uh approval, if you will.

But there's nothing that would prevent the planning commission from determining it wanted to do that tonight if it chose to.

That's correct.

Okay, so in terms of initi the for planning commission to initiate a rezoning, it doesn't take any preparatory steps in advance of us moving and voting to initiate that's correct, but it would be something that would subsequently have to come back for a public hearing.

At that moment it becomes a separate entity than the whatever the fate of this SUP is is different from whatever the fate of that.

They are separate, they are separate approvals, yes.

Well, thank you, because I fully confess that I wasn't aware that that was even a theoretical, let alone an operational possibility for us to do too.

Typically that's it's conventionality factor is low.

Correct.

Okay.

Thank you.

All right.

Um I have some thoughts.

So I'm I'm not persuaded by staff's um assessment that a five-year extension is appropriate in this case for this use.

Um we heard a lot of different reasons from community members tonight.

And I agree I agree with them.

I think that the commitment in the small area plan, the commitment in the SUP sunset date that was discussed prior.

And in my my recollection from I don't remember this stuff because it's all in my head.

I remember it from reading things, um, that when planning commission saw this, it was we supported staff's recommendation at the time for something like a three or four-year um SUP.

And then when it went to council, that was when they attacked on those additional years.

So even then, staff and planning commission's recommendation was not as long as they've gotten um to have sort of in this period of time.

And when you have that use permit discussed in the context of the small area plan and the intended redevelopment of the community, I really think it's the business operators' obligation to take that seriously as a process that they have to make adjustments for.

Um so similar to what I'm hearing from others tonight, it's disappointing to I know it's seven months, and I know there's different um I I also entirely agree with Mr.

Wire that it's not unusual to get extensions for things.

We see extensions a lot for approved development that's exactly what we want in the community.

They just can't make it pencil yet.

So we approve or recommend approval of an extension because we want to see it happen.

This is the opposite of that.

This is an extension request for a thing we don't want to see, and we would have preferred to have closed years ago in terms of its alignment with the small area plan.

So everyone is allowed to come for an extension.

Everyone is totally welcome to bring their business case to planning commission and council to argue why it's too soon and why they need more time.

But the commitment that there is a chicken and egg thing happening here.

And I I believe that the presence and operation of this paving industrial use is negatively impacting the possibilities for redevelopment and the changes that the that the immediate neighboring parcels are supposed to be seeing.

Just we see it actually, we see one of the greenhill parcels right um north of the the site on this on this um aerial.

These commitments and all the things that all the pieces that we're putting together rely on this commitment that happened in the past that we are going to see the end of operations of a paving service, and yes, these services are important and necessary.

We do have to maintain our roads, but Alexandria has made the decision that we do not have to maintain a paving plant here in the in this neighborhood.

Um so we have to source our our pavement from somewhere else.

And this is a practicality that even the city, not not to mention all the other um customers of this paving operation, um, but the city is gonna have to grapple with.

Um I expect the city has not made all of its plans yet.

So I also in terms of thinking about what the appropriate course of action is.

Um I think it's important to acknowledge that five years is too long and that there isn't an extension of the sunset date is is entirely inconsistent with the planning principles that we reviewed in the past.

Um, and that the community is relying on change here to support change over time.

Um I think that we need to discuss, I'd like to discuss um what we think is reasonable, given that the months between now and the expiration of this SUP may not be enough time for even, and again, because operations don't seem to have changed, it's not clear that existing clients of this operation have any idea that it's going to close and that they might need to be sourcing in a different location, and if if the transportation costs or time is going to change.

So there's folks who need to know what what is going to happen here and need to make their plans as well.

Um, so I'd like to, I I'm interested in hearing my colleagues' opinions and hopefully a discussion of what is a reasonable extension that is as short as it can possibly be, while acknowledging that that a closing plan is necessary, operational responsibility for the site, and for the things that will keep this site from being an environmental contaminant, and whatever you have to do to close down responsibly a facility like this.

Um, that all there's time for all of that while also acknowledging that the sooner we get it to stop operating, the sooner other things can happen in this neighborhood.

Um is there some way for me to know who clicked first?

Commissioner Ramirez, yes, go for it.

Just wanted to express that I am I am in agreement with the points that you just raised, um, madam chair.

Um one one of the things that I I took a quick look at was um back in 2019 with the approval for this extension and observing and understanding as well that it it has been seven years.

So if you can't get your plan together as to exactly what you're going to be doing with the property in the course of seven years, I'm I'm not sure exactly what another five-year extension is really going to do.

Um that's that's one point.

In 2019, um the presentation of this first extension request was met with a city staff recommendation of sunsetting it shorter than the six than the uh seven years into uh November of 2022, three years.

So let's keep that that metric right there in mind for just a second, because at that point, city staff said, no, we want to we want you to pull it back.

We want you to to end your operations much earlier.

Okay, so that in contrast with what we're looking to do now, I think is is a 180.

Um I I look at that and I worry a little bit about, for example, our our recent um adoption of the updated green building policy.

Um, the um focus that we have on on things like indoor air quality, um, focus on um electrifying versus using natural gas.

Um we're looking at all of these kinds of improvements that we're trusting of all of these developers, and yet we're going to take a look at this property that's 11 acres, allowing a particular matter size of 2.5, measurable to things like say smoke, um, incense, like any of those kind of little particulate matters that can hang out in the air for a long time and allow it to allow that exposure to happen over 11.3 acres of land in Alexandria, it it it baffles me.

So yeah, but think thinking about the the prior the prior approval and the the original perspective that we had to shorten that timeline versus what we're doing right now to push that timeline forward, um the adoption and and progression of our perspective to a greener um more environmentally friendly approach in the city in contrast to what this business's work does.

Um these two major points to me tell me that, you know, and and not just that, but the seven years that this business had has had to think about this one site, and it has six sites, it has six sites through Northern Virginia.

Six sites total.

This would reduce it to five, but it has six sites.

This is not its only site.

Our our if we were to oppose this extension, if we were to oppose this application, it doesn't mean that this business by itself dies altogether.

It has other sites.

Um thinking about all these these parts put together.

Um I'm not convinced of this application.

Okay, com uh Vice Chair Canning, and then I see um Commissioner Manor online has his hand up.

So you'll be next.

Thank you, Chair.

So uh I'm still convinced by the logic of the Planning Commission's 2019 support, sorry, 2019 vote in support of the staff's recommended 2023 deadline, which council at that point actually stretched to 2027.

Um council affirmed then that a defined end date was appropriate to ensure alignment with the small area plan and to provide a clear expectation that the site would transition to planned uses over time.

And over time, in that case meant over the next eight years, at least in terms of terminating this specific use.

A clear expectation was formally established then, and I think the past eight years has afforded the property owner a reasonable time frame within which to prepare to conclude operations.

To me, the rate at which redevelopment is evolving, especially the Green Hill and Vulcan sites, argues against an extension rather than for it.

So I do not support the staff's recommendation for an extension to 2032.

To your point, Chair, about what what we might want to consider as a commission in terms of things on the spectrum between simply recommending denial of the extension and considering an extension that may have a shorter time frame than full five years.

I'm very open to that discussion as well.

Um a couple of observations I made just I would make just about what we've heard tonight in in response to the questions about what happens if this is not extended.

It sounded to me like simply um one day the plan is operational and the next day it is not.

People simply don't show up to work.

I didn't hear about decommissioning um buildings, I didn't hear about demolition, I didn't hear about remediation.

Um and it sounded like it would just sit there as it is until someone comes in and decides to do some other buy right use that may potentially be allowable without touching any of that now, derelict and um or at least deeply dormant equipment.

Um so I have a big question about whether that's actually what the physical practical reality is going forward.

Um for instance, if a one-year extension meant that instead of just locking the gate and not showing up the next day, there was actually something like a planned conclusion of operations that left a site that was not simply the remnant of a plant that's no longer functional.

Um I would be very open to a one-year extension if we had some sense that it something useful was actually going to happen right now.

I'm not persuaded that an extension of any sort is necessary if literally the only thing that's going to happen is that one day the plan is operational and the next day it's not.

Doesn't seem to me there's any required extension required uh necessary or appropriate for that.

So if there's something meaningful that can happen in that year, um and there is actually going to be a coordinated organized shutdown plan that requires the applicant some reasonable amount of time to prepare that, and we could potentially consider something like on January 20, January 1, 2027, instead of locking the door, they present an actual plan for decommissioning over that year of extension that would follow, with perhaps a six-year point of actually updating the fact that they're on target to meet that, then there's just one scenario I'm open to many others, but it seems to me something along those lines would be something that I would be willing to um support if that's the sense of the commission.

Um Commissioner Manor.

Thank you.

Uh I I like um Ms.

Lyle's proposal for a one-year extension with the idea of rezoning at the end.

That just helps move things along, and I think that just is a logical way to bring this to a close and know what's going to happen next.

So just we're gonna have that there for discussion.

Commissioner Lenhan, yeah, I have a question about um what requirements we can place on the owner if we are allowed to say they are required to decommission.

Um, because that that could essentially require them to um great expenditure um which they may not be required to do under the current SUP.

So I'm just when we start asking questions about what those conditions could be, um, I don't exactly understand what uh the extent to which that we can demand certain things.

So uh the application before you is a special use permit, and so any conditions would be attached to uh uh mitigating the impacts of that in this case, the the use of the paving facility.

Um and then uh the conditions have to be uh uh sort of have a have a rational nexus and a uh sort of a balance of values about the the uh the impact uh against uh the the cost of remediating.

Uh I think we probably do need to do a little bit more analysis on on what that expected cost would be uh and whether that's uh in a sort of uh relation to the the impact being generated.

So I think the short answer is we would need some some more staff analysis, but I think if the direction from the from the planning commission were for um the staff to further explore that uh and what options might be available before it gets to council.

Okay.

I'm curious, um Mr.

Wire, if you could ask your client um if anything we've said is something that they would um we're now sort of bargaining here in a way.

You can we can either say no extension, you close on January first, or we say there's a there's a potential for a year, and what does that year look like.

Um, Commissioner, we uh request your vote and whatever means it comes.

So we're not gonna negotiate on the fly here what it means.

So you all made your position clear.

I don't think there's any point in further discussion of my end.

Thank you.

Yeah, that there's a lot of uncertainty.

I think like one of my questions, which relates to staff staff's whole report is based on um improvements that the SUP applicant has proposed to make, given that they would they would recoup a sort of investment value over the five-year period.

And it might be that none of those are worthwhile making if we um only gave them one year, even though the way that the timing is in the condition, it would be like within nine months you have to do XYZ kind of thing.

Understood.

That's why I keep probing this sort of uncertainty about when we start talking about uh altering the conditions right from the bench, it gets complicated.

Right.

And so it it sounds like um we we could send something send staff with the recommendation that everything stays as a package and it has a different date at the end, or a denial, a recommendation of denial is that we don't agree with anything in the package and we think that the SUP needs to um conclude.

My I don't know that it's I don't know that it's an appropriate consideration for an extension like this, but one of the um one of the things that's in my mind is the financial impact to which which might occur to any customers of this um of this facility if their services are relocated to one of those other facilities, and if they haven't been made aware of that now.

It's the expenses over the next fiscal year are already budgeted.

Um so whether that's the city or whether that's any other agency that might be sourcing material here.

Um it doesn't seem like any information has been shared that it's going to close as a facility.

And then that those prices might change.

But but if there's a contract to buy the the asphalt, you would expect that that ex additional cost might be borne by the company given that they've already agreed to provide it.

So if it had to come from a different place, it might be.

But again, these are a lot of unknowns that we're not really in a position to talk about.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Yep.

Um Commissioner Dubai and then Commissioner uh Vice Chair Candy.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I I um read over this quite a bit.

There's a lot here, and you start back with the economic conditions and and when the small area plan was adopted, obviously that's changed.

The the floodplain is obviously increased with the new maps.

So all of that's changed, but yet you just have to look around the city, whether it's landmark or Lenar or Green Hill, maybe the economics aren't changing as much as we think because there's a lot of things going up.

Um where I'm at on this, I I think that um I really like the idea of us initiating a rezoning.

Um how we do that from the dias.

Is uh we'll go with what our uh council tells us how to do.

I would certainly be in favor of that.

Um I think five years is just kicking the can five more years and this pepper squad five years or seven years ago now.

So don't come back to us in five years asking again, and here we are.

Um I would be in favor of a one-year extension with uh closure plan within six months.

And the conditions are the problem though.

Well, you know, what do we do about the proposed conditions?

If we do a one-year, does that mean the conditions go away altogether?

Um regardless, I think the end result is we need to close the plan and just move on.

Thank you.

Vice Chair Kennedy.

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

So this is um this is certainly no less complicated than we had anticipated.

Um I just like to try to make sure I'm understanding a couple of points that just were raised.

I think your point or or the whole issue about if we turn a propos if if we turn a extension request that was designed to be a five-year extension request and has, as we've identified in the staff has presented, a series of representations that the applicants are making that they're going to make an investment, then very clearly um that it's only reasonable to assume that the five-year P the five-year term of that is integral to the negotiation of what those conditions are.

So that concerns me a lot.

I don't want to be in a position where where we're sending forward a one-year extension, but I also don't think we're it's unless we're here going into a much greater level of detail, which I'm not sure would be productive.

Going to want to go through all those conditions and try to determine exactly which ones are no longer reasonable to impose or no longer willing to be um offered by the applicant.

So I'm um concerned about that.

I'm concerned about the flip side of it.

Um also being very difficult to do, which is this question of how if if we were to extend it for a year, and it was explicitly to provide a year to help make an orderly transition.

And it was also explicitly to make that transition more functional than simply leaving rusting equipment sitting on the landscape for the next two or ten years with the owner no longer taking any responsibility for operating it or maintaining it.

But we also don't seem to be able to negotiate conditions for how to do better than that on the fly here either.

So that's a lot of blather that hasn't magically gotten me to a solution, other than to think that potentially the two options are some sort of a deferral that well, I guess there are three options.

One is following the suggestion maybe that the director made this that we do what we normally do, which is we explicitly change a couple of conditions and then we give some direction for some additional condition refinement that will magically happen between our recommendation and council's consideration.

Again, I'm very worried about making that what at this point it seems to me that would be asking staff and the applicant to go back into the conditions that have been proposed and pull out the ones that don't work if it's one year and magically put in all the ones that give us a better result at the end than just locking the gate and asking that to happen between tonight and council's hearing.

So it seems to me that offers then another couple of options opportunities.

One is to defer and ask that kind of reconsideration of things to be brought into play before it would come back and we would vote on it.

I'm not really a it doesn't appeal to me very much.

Um the other option is literally to do something extremely clean and say that this application extension is essentially something that we are not supporting, and just cleanly say that we do not recommend approving this application for extension.

Uh and then let council act on as it may, either to direct it back to us or defer it or re-examine it or take our recommendation at that point.

But I think at this point the balance, I'm not interested in trying to understand which small items they might do that would parse out and pencil out for them over the next five years.

That's of no interest to me.

Um I'm sure it's clearly of no interest to Mr.

Wire, and I think justifiably so to try to figure out what other conditions might work tonight.

So I guess I would leave it at the point that if it was the sense of the commission, I'd be happy to move a clean recommendation of denial on the special use permit extension request as it stands, but only to continue the discussion if anybody thinks there's another way forward, I'm happy to think more about what that could be.

I have a question for council.

Um just looping back because we heard some interest in the initiation of a zoning change here.

Um is that something where we could just direct to staff that we in a future upcoming month that we would like to initiate?

Like normally we receive these as a proposed thoughtful staff are actually looking at the zones, you're looking at what we need to do here, and and there's a staff report that comes along with an initiation.

Um, and I feel like that's missing from something that we would do that people have have proposed potentially doing more on the fly.

Um can you just explain to me like is there anything other than the informal suggestion at the end of what we do on this SUP item that we would do with regard to an expressing interest in a rezoning discussion that's separate from the SUP?

So um there the official action that you could take to signal that that you want this to come back for you for public hearing, is to take the vote on the initiation.

Um staff it would still it would be a staff application because it's unlikely at this point that there would be an applicant-driven um application.

And so um you could ask staff to bring it back with the the direction to bring it back if you express an intention to reason to initiate a rezoning at a later point, but you want to have that information in front of you at the time you consider doing it or not, but you could take the action to initiate.

Now, that being said, once you initiate it, it would be scheduled for public hearing.

So if you um you are setting a course of action at that point, right.

And we we would have to have selected a zone to initiate a specific specific zone, right?

Not just like we want to make a zoning change.

So that's the other piece that we if we wanted whenever whatever time is that we would like something to be initiated, there has to be a specific selection that's made.

You could also direct staff to investigate appropriate zoning for this property that you all could consider at a future point, and if you decided to initiate at that point once you saw the staff analysis, that could be another step you could take.

Yeah.

I'm inclined to acknowledge that um that it would be nice to proactively look at the zoning for this location at this point in time to open it up and then hopefully come to a place where we can do a formal initiation and a public hearing and perhaps a rezoning even before other things have um have transpired on the site in order to continue to push this along.

But I don't think we have the tools to do that tonight, other than to respectfully ask staff to just a comment that I think you're right on that last point you made is right on, but it's also something that the staff could bring at the uh retreat and we can have an in-depth discussion of the whole process because that's that's new to most of us, I think, and and then initiate it for September.

Yeah.

Yes, Director Scott.

The uh just one thing to throw out, I think it would be important to be in step with with council on whether that's a step that they wanted to take as well.

Um it would be a uh fairly significant investment of staff resources to follow through on that request.

So one thing that you may do um uh in addition to making your request on the specific application that's in front of you, you could suggest as part of that motion saying we would we would suggest that council direct staff to to take on that work.

Uh that would allow us that would give us the direction uh uh to understand if that's something that council wanted us to take on, maybe push something off the work plan to make room for it.

Uh and then also the timing by which they would like to see a response or reaction to that.

Thank you for that recommendation.

Other thoughts from Commissioners uh Commissioner Lanahan.

I'm just gonna say I think in my um sausage making way of asking questions, I was pointing to the complexity of setting forth some conditions of a year if that's what we thought we wanted to do, and it did not seem that we could we could sort out how to do that given I don't a lot of lack of understanding and a lot of um uh uh inability to judge whether or not what we were conditions actually made sense.

So um I appreciate the directness of uh Commissioner Koenig's notion of making the motion.

Yeah.

Great.

Any last comments before Commissioner Vice Chair Kenig makes a proposed motion on the table.

Not hearing anything, go for it.

Actually, uh before that guy makes a motion, I wanted to just uh try to make sure that we do indeed have consensus here, and then I'm understanding the logic.

Um the the discussion about the rezoning, I think if if we can treat that as a further discussion item after we draw a conclusion here for this applicant for their uh for their request that we figure out how to do that, but that we do not we're not taking any formal action on that tonight, but it has been revealed as a very interesting issue, and I think we should find a way to follow it up separate from this.

And then back to our action here.

I mean, I came in here tonight fully fully prepared to support the idea of a single year um extension because I thought that we would find that there were the levels of complexity on the applicant's point of view that would be unreasonable to compress, leaving aside the fact that we're this close to the finish line, and that the fact that they may have a lot left to do is partially a function of them waiting to this point to make their request for an extension, leaving that aside for a moment.

If the reality was that they would actually be forced into things that would be um extremely difficult or physically not possible, then that would uh grant an extension.

But I think now the reality that a simple extension like that is not just adjusting the number.

So, for instance, when council added four years before, it didn't change really anything that we had sent forward as a recommendation.

For us to turn five years into one changes everything from the applicant's point of view, and we can and I don't think we can fix that.

And I think adding the extra year seems to me to be something that we're potentially offering, and that it comes with some concern on our part, and we can't satisfy our own concern about what would actually be happening during that year.

So that doesn't really look plausible, um, which is just another long way of saying either the two other options seem to be worse than simply sending forward an explicit recommendation to council that the planning commission does not support this extension period.

And if you're ready to entertain that, I would do that.

I am ready so I move to recommend to council that they disapprove special use permit 20 26 000-5601 and 5603 Courtney Avenue and 720, 730, and 750 South Van Dorn Street, based upon the public testimony this evening, including the applicant's testimony and the commission's discussion at the hearing.

I have a motion on the table by Vice Chair Canning to disapprove um the SUP based on the discussion.

Do I have a second?

A second.

All right, I have a second by Commissioner Ramirez.

Any final discussion or clarifications from commissioners about the motion on the table.

Hearing none, all those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Opposed?

Motion carries 6-0.

So Madam Chair, do we want to hold hold our consideration of what we wanted to do next until we get to Commissioners' comments and reports, or should we now that we've concluded that specifically business?

We're there on the agenda.

We are at commissioners' reports, comments.

Oh look at that.

We are there you go ironically enough.

That was all part of my plan, I guess.

Yep.

So we did not choose to do what Director Stotter offered that we could have done, which is putting it as a formal suggestion for council.

However, they're welcome to consider the record of our discussion, and they might well be considering it themselves.

It's part of the record at this point that there's this idea that a rezoning might accelerate what needs to happen on this site.

So the question would be: do we want to do I guess I would posit that we probably don't need to do anything definitive with staff on this until council hears it and weighs in, and if they make a direction one way or the other on that particular item, then that's helpful to us.

And if they don't even touch upon it, then we can ask that staff, and maybe it is for in something Commissioner Dubai, like an item that we discuss in our in our retreat about what is the what is the labor of love that goes into a city initiated effort to rezone when normally we sit back and we wait for applicants to want to do it because then they're ready and the market's ready and so on and so forth.

But we I appreciate Director Stoddard's points about reallocating precious staff resources to something that we think is urgent based on this application that was before us today, but may not be as urgent as other things that staff are also working on.

So I agree with that completely, and I just reinforced two things.

One is I think it's really important, obviously now that council undertake this issue, um, address our recommendation, make their own decision, and then we have a new reality, whatever it is.

And I agree there's absolutely nothing else for us to do other than the work we've done tonight.

Yeah.

Um but I do want to just weigh in out of sequence for uh a query that I'm sure the director is going to send us sometime soon after we pick a date for our retreat going, hey, what kind of things would you like to talk about at the retreat?

And so I would like to reinforce the idea that something that doesn't take uh getting on the work plan uh a level of consideration of how this might be approached that's appropriate for preparation of an item for the um retreat would would be something I'd be willing to put on that list.

One thing that I did think was fascinating, because I said, wait a minute, this is industrial uh you know housing comes along and you say housing is allowable under the industrial use, but that seems strange to me actually.

Like it, I mean, I'm not a zoning, obviously, I'm uh a zoning or planner, but but it does feel as though if the if the small area plan expected mixed use to leave it industrial.

I mean, maybe you all think that that makes perfect sense, but it seems like a strange thing to not have had that somehow modified along the way, or or at least suggested by the small area plan that ultimately the zoning would be something different to under you know the sort of the the underlying um structure of the plan.

There are certainly multiple approaches to it, right?

Uh uh when there are operating uses leaving the existing zoning in place uh can leave a level field so as not to um uh maybe burden existing users.

Um sort of uh sort of a proactive zoning approach can also have its benefits.

I think uh uh just looking at the plan that uh the proposed entities, uh the specifics of the street layout that those may need to happen under a CDD, a coordinated development district, uh anyway.

Uh and so it's not uh, you know, we could do some further analysis, but just a straight rezoning to one of the city's existing zoning districts may not by itself be enough to actually get into the vision of the plan.

I'm learning.

Yeah, and and it's um usually our plans get all the way through detailed land use designations on the on parcels and on um properties owned by one entity.

So the plan certainly has all of that.

It's just the zoning part doesn't get changed often until um property owners are ready to do something, and then they pick they pick the zone, like there might be there might be information about it in the plan, but it is not necessarily done by the plan.

That's what happened across the street.

Yep.

We see them in our DSUP packages frequently, the rezoning with in that laundry list at the top, it's like four DSUPs and a rezoning and a subdivision and a SUP for something something, and they're all in there together.

I just I guess I hadn't seen what the I hadn't really processed it, what the underlying zoning was versus what it was becoming.

Yeah.

So I'm sure that was true at Potomac Yard.

There would have been an underlying zoning that was very different.

Anyway, for clarification, um, when the public storage site on the north side of uh Backlick Run came forward, that was a coordinated development district, and it is the same coordinated development district that the Vulcan site is, and that is because there are road connections, and in this instance there's a pedestrian bridge, because coordinated development districts often look at coordination for transportation and access.

And because that Vulcan site is pretty isolated, um, the pedestrian bridge connecting to the uh public storage site, the seven acres of open space that's being dedicated to the city on the Vulcan site with the pedestrian bridge connects to the three acres that were dedicated to the city with the public storage site.

Um and so this coordinated development district allowed that to tie together, and because of the nature of the sites in Eisenhower West, um coordinated development districts were the recommendation at that point.

Yeah.

So Madam Chair, if I could just one more, because I I think this is a rather unexpected additional dimension to that consideration, but still a fascinating piece, and I appreciate Ms.

Lyle putting that um in play.

So it seems to me that there's every chance that we've gotten two-thirds of the way here to the answer tonight, which is us picking a zone off the wheel of zones and initiating a change to it, probably doesn't have much merit to it because it may want to be a CDD or it may want to turn out to be the zone next to the on the one that we pick on the wheel.

Um and I think part of it, if I that the original suggestion was at least partly as a as a defense mechanism about having a follow-on use activated on that site that's still an industrial use, just happens to be one that's by right and can squeak in and start up again.

And maybe it's not quite as noxious as the paving, but it's still an active business.

We have the same thing.

I got employees, I'm paying taxes.

I've been here for three years now doing this by right.

I invested a hundred thousand dollars to make my warehouse to hold my stuff and store my trucks.

Um but that being said, it seems to me that rezoning isn't isn't a particularly surgical tool to prevent that.

So it leads me back to my other suggestion or uh corollary to my suggestion for a retreat item is I think it takes us out of planning and zoning, but it takes us into the world of uh presume for a moment the council agrees with what we did.

And on January 1st, 2027, they just don't come to work the next day, and they also don't demo and remediate their site in the next six months.

And also um things do move, but it's one or two or five or eight years before somebody actually buys that site, although now they could actually do it because it doesn't have an active paving company on it.

What are they looking at then?

Is the is the typical scenario that that stuff just sits in rusts and then the buyer of the property takes on the amelioration and the deconstruction.

Isn't that what a small version of PRGS?

That's exactly what I think.

Should we just cut to the chase and say that's the reality that we're confronted with?

Or is there a way to at least examine again outside of planning and zoning perhaps, whether there are ways to hold property owners responsible for the can the environmental condition of their of their abandoned?

I mean, isn't there some sort of abandoned structure?

I mean, you can't you can't move it out of your house and fail to sell it and simply let it dissolve in the rain over 20 years, right?

There's some sort of rules and regulations preventing you from doing that.

Shouldn't don't we have something even moderately similar to that for these kinds of properties?

Or if we don't, how worried about it, you know, should we be?

And or is there some way we can start to do something other than let them sit and rust for the decade until somebody else buys it?

I mean, honestly, I I feel like you're you're bringing up a really good point, right?

And this was something that I started thinking about that, you know, we we we do talk about we're we talk about land use relative to the codes in Alexandria and and the small area plans and master plan, but there is also land use lower case, right?

And the consideration of the kind of businesses that situate themselves.

Like who would have thought who would have thunk the um power plant when it first started in 19 uh 1949?

We we we do talk about we we talk about land use relative to the codes in Alexandria and the small area plans and master plan but there is also land use lowercase right and the consideration of the kind of businesses that situate themselves like who would have thought who would have thunk the um power plant when it first started in 1949 um that it was providing a service right it was providing a service to Alexandria residents but the impact of its operations is seep so deeply into the soils that it becomes another generation future generations problems so how do we take a look and understand land use then with the city like I'm I'm thinking about just this site for example that the person who comes after them has got miles of work ahead of them before they can really say that that land is is good to use unless like they they end up doing something and having a similar business but then it just keeps seeping into the soil so how do we then hold um you know in in a way how do we hold businesses responsible for how they use our land and and land use lowercase when it does affect then future land use uppercase some sort of stewardship responsibility along the way perhaps I mean we talk about like the green building policy and that's that's you know something that's in place but how do we know then that um the uh you know and and understanding the um requirements for electrification um what that longer term um impact might be hybrid cars let's let's talk something different right hybrid cars hybrid cars came out people were excited about it driving hybrid cars fantastic my issue is those batteries what's gonna happen with all those batteries coming to term and having half-lifes that are indescribable insurmountable but it has a direct land impact so what happens at that point and how do we then take that kind of idea and look at our little city of Alexandria microcosm and nurture our land so that it can be used by future residents generations down the road um so my impression is that there are um staff's work to evolve SUP conditions take some of this into account like we've seen stormwater remediation conditions and and the kinds of requirements that we have for building permits they they they change over time with best practice it does not I don't think anything properly addresses major Lulus like this so these land uses that are so big so toxic but but also necessary like power plants I mean we still use power so we have to figure out what what kind of power we're gonna generate and what kind of plants we're gonna build but we have we've got all these things that we have to that that we require to be a society and I don't think our typical practice is gonna it's not like a way to prepare for for handling stuff like that.

But then again I also feel like we're in the process of of removing those from the community not building new ones so what what actually came to mind for me in this discussion was um that this is not the last we we've seen several SUPs for extensions for like automobile um businesses yeah and mechanic shops and things like that in these locations where they're coming for an extension of their SUP and we're doing an assessment is it okay for them to keep operating and most of the time we're actually saying it's okay.

These are little maybe they're not as as prolonged I don't remember what a typical term of these extensions is but um they're much much smaller and less impactful parcels um but we this this request will not be the end of what we see when it comes to that because all of those land uses that are that are speckled throughout this small area plan are continued to continue to be speckled throughout and they're gonna come back and they're gonna ask for extensions unless we get lucky and they just sell their property to a development you know a real estate development firm that's like comfortable with redeveloping a gas station or redeveloping an automobile shop and and they assemble parcels and stuff so we could get lucky and it gets done for us through this proactive market process or we could end up with a continued sprinkling of docket items where we're asked to weigh whether we think it's still okay for them to be operating that business there.

So that's my my bigger concern is that we don't have a good answer for this a lot of the time I I'm I felt very good about what we did tonight with Virginia paving because of the magnitude of its impact on the neighborhood and its potential impact on really the market environment and the community environment there.

But I don't know that I have a good answer for how to make it that decision on a gas station by gas station basis or uh auto shop by auto shop basis.

Um I think we will see more of it.

Yeah, actually, I mean, I think that's a really good point.

That was a that was a central point of contention here.

The the staff made their analysis and they came forward and they explicitly came down on one side of this.

I mean, they they did their analysis, it was thorough and comprehensive as ever, and their judgment was that the overall rate of development is such that the balance leans toward extending this use because it's not actually inhibiting anything.

Um I guess the I I didn't in the end agree with that, and I think that but it's it's an indication of how complex it is, right?

So uh to me the fact that that Vulcan is where it is, and that the owner of Green Hill is willing to come forward and say, Look, we just we were in front of you guys two or five years ago, and we entitled our three million square feet, and one of our properties is directly adjacent to this.

I know by the way, we've made offers for this property without getting our calls returned, and it's affecting our decision when we talk to potential investors about whether and when we're gonna be able to move on our CD, CDD.

So I think in one sense it's all a judgment call, right?

It's all the Vulcan people and the Greenhouse people could all just be going, actually, this wouldn't stop us from going forward, but we don't like it, so we want it to go away.

Just like the applicants and say, this we're not really bothering anybody, just let us keep going, and you have to make a judgment call.

And I think in this case, it's because that was big enough that it's either doing the one thing or not, and if it's doing what we were worried about, it means something, and it means five years of slowdown for momentum that we're actually kind of getting to.

Back to your point about the smaller pieces, though, I think a lot of those, if we look at, for instance, Green Hill's parcel over there, I think there's some light industrial use, so there's mechanic shops or something over there.

They can come forward and we can keep approving them because the decision is going to be bigger about when they do or don't decide to move.

It's not going to be about, oh, you know, we got 90% of this is ready to go, but we can't get a loan because that guy's still doing single oil changes a day with this one lived garage.

So I think there's a threshold where we don't have to worry about it too much.

And this one is clearly over that threshold where a big part of the of the judgment that we were called on to make is whether it is or is not affecting the rate of evolution out there.

Yes, Director Stodder.

Madam Chair, if I may.

The uh I think it's a good point.

I think uh to your point about sort of new uses versus existing uses.

I think that's a good uh sort of pointer or maybe a sort of a lens to look at this.

Obviously, when a new use comes in, we obviously use the conditions to mitigate the anticipated impacts that would come with it.

Um this one is an interesting one in the sense that uh uh there was an existing use uh and uh its continued operation uh can uh have impacts on the neighborhood.

Um but even its historical use has some sort of impacts.

Uh and I think uh maybe not to this one specifically, the the the vote's been cast, but um uh you know it could be the case that for other industrial uses, you know, part of that that that SUP extension could consideration could be can somehow the continuing use of that site um pay into or somehow support the eventual redevelopment or the or the remediation of it.

I think you know, to some extent it's it is mitigating an impact of the use.

Um and so long as it's uh uh maybe a small set aside on an annual basis, and so it escalates over time, and so at some point the one of the challenges we have with um industrial sites uh is often the the land cost can be negative.

Uh that um uh the revenue that comes from the site when you take away the construction costs, that uh you'd have to get a negative value on the land in order to make it worthwhile.

So if somehow continuing operations are are are supporting the eventual redevelopment in some way, uh and obviously we have to connect it to the to the application in front of us to be valid, but if somehow you were starting to tip the scales um and over time, right, you're you're putting uh sort of value into a bucket, and at some point that bucket tips the scales.

So Paul, I think that's a great point.

Could I just make a hypothetical then that if you just use this exact case?

Because I think when I looked back, I had forgotten that that planning commit that staff recommended four years, planning commission sent that recommendation forward, and and council, I get the impression from councilwoman pepper tonight, basically just said, I'm gonna add four more years, and then I never want to see you again.

So wouldn't that have been the strategic point at which you could they could have had a package that said, okay, we're gonna we're gonna make our building better and we're gonna paint it and we'll put better doors on and plant some trees, and that is worth doing for four more years.

And if you say, well, what if you get another four years?

Can you put together a million dollar remediation fund that you leave in the bank when you walk away?

And then instead of us chasing you around trying to get you to demount your building, which you'll never do, we can immediately engage somebody to take those buildings down and maybe not remediate the whole site, but get it so it's one step closer to being available, and the threshold is that much lower for the person who's coming and trying to find, you know, and not looking at the kind of headwind on PRGS or on this site, that I've got to factor into my acquisition cost here that the moment I buy this land I've got to spend 10 million bucks to fix it.

But it seems to me that's the perfect scenario where we're council's literally willing to say we just did this plan, and we think 10 or 15 years before we're going to be looking at things like Vulcan happening.

Um so let's make a deal and let's and let's go ahead and actually get uh a level of value out of there beyond what I think the city usually gets.

I mean, it seems to me that that kind of uh operational that those eight years were probably perfectly functional and and amenable for Virginia paving.

I think that's evident by the fact that their production went down every year, and they're still perfectly happy to be there.

So they weren't like incurring costs or anything.

They had some level of surplus they could have been paying into some fund in all probability.

Yeah, and I go back to the point that it seems to me that does exactly what you're saying is the nexus is right there.

You're paying in now with the money you're making to be able to fix the mess that you're gonna walk away from when you walk away.

We're not asking to put it in a fund and fix that dirty creek out on another another person's property.

And the nexus is all is 90% of the place where things always get gnarled up, right?

You we're pushing too far and we're asking for money that just isn't directly coordinated in somebody.

This would be a way to put it right in the um critical mass.

Yeah, and I don't know if there's um again, votes been taken, right?

So you see um right, and so that the advice up to the council at this point is uh uh a very sort of stark sort of no, we don't recommend approval of the the five year extension.

Um I don't know if there would be an interest in reconsidering and sort of tempering that a little bit and saying, no, we don't think a straight five year makes sense um uh unless there's something attached to it uh that that sort of uh walks us closer to the vision somehow.

Now exactly what that is, we haven't had time to figure it out.

Um but I don't know if there's interest in in tempering that a little bit or maybe sort of opening a door.

I'm I'm comfortable with the vote that we took tonight.

I I'm hearing Stephen saying that five years ago, no, seven years ago, there was an opportunity that wasn't taken.

But we're further along in the life cycle of this small area plan and uh the community expectations and other things.

So it's more of when the community and the community was pretty much on board with that extension when it happened.

So that's when the package should have been a little more forward-looking on the resources that would be needed and maybe the hurdles that would be encountered to get to that point at the end of that period of time.

And maybe it was just naive to think that that would be a long enough extension.

I mean, again, at the time staff's recommendation was shorter, and then council tacked on years, so maybe nobody really um anticipated how long it would take to really get this site ready to be something new.

Um but it's clear that that things are changing, and so yeah, my my long way around is just to say I'm I'm quite comfortable with the the vote that I took tonight.

And it's not so much that there's an opportunity on this site today, as there is it it is an example of a kind of thing that we might see again in the future somewhere else in town.

And depending on that runway that we're looking at, if we're looking at a longer-term SUP for something that has a longer runway, we might want to be thinking about what conditions we can tie to it that can reflect the commitment the community wants to see to transition actually happening in the future.

Commissioner Lanahan.

So I think some of the questions I asked this evening were um uh they point somewhat to this, the the potential or the um jurisdictional power to make conditions and and how they get resolved.

So I would like that, I would appreciate that being um a topic for our retreat.

Um so we've just listed new ways to sort of put conditions that have a financial impact.

And you do this sausage making all the time.

Um, and so you probably have a better understanding of of what the um the applicant would say, I can't do that, or that's possible, but there must be some understanding of how far what you can request in terms of um sort of financial um burden to each um SUP condition, right?

Yeah, I think that's probably a good topic for a retreat.

But sort of rehashing an item that was on the docket tonight versus maybe abstracting it to another conversation.

And I think certainly for a retreat topic, that's a good one.

I know it was a couple months ago now, but uh that there is the planning commissioner training that's run through uh I think it's VCU, uh, and they run a uh planning commissioner training.

I uh I think it's probably twice a year.

Uh and uh they would cover those kinds of topics as well.

And I'm I'm happy to recirculate that, and of course, um uh the city would cover the cost for for planning commission training.

Long story short, Colleen needs more training.

Oh no, I uh I uh whenever I've worked with commissioners in the past, uh, even if they come need more training uh from the industry, they've always expressed uh uh value in having attended as well as being able to make connections with commissioners in other jurisdictions.

Uh just that opportunity to network can always be helpful to see how other folks um tackle the same issues.

Paul, did I hear you say that that training is run by VCU now?

I think so.

I think it transitioned uh the Virginia Tech Extension Service anymore.

No.

So it it's just an ancient guy.

Well, I would throw in the fact that I enjoyed planning commissioner training a lot and thought it was really very worthwhile and would go again if I wasn't leaving so soon.

But I certainly um uh I thought it was uh a very effective thing for the same for the reasons that you mentioned, but I do think that this is specific enough to the things we have going on that um building upon the the example that we've got here.

And if it's not actually if it's not too far out of line, I'd like to ask another question of staff because I notice that Maya and Rachel are still uh sitting here suffering through, although the docket item, as far as I can tell, is officially over.

So I'm gonna uh indulge that and just go of this discussion that we've had tonight.

Are there things on your mind or things, observations that you would make for us to keep in mind as we go forward from this?

Um I mean the conversation was really helpful to listen to and kind of seeing where you all were at, um, especially in regards to the Eisenhower West plan and wanting that to continue to charge forward.

Um yeah, I think just first staff that was good to listen to.

Um I'll add, you know, there are other sites uh around this site to the point of their industrial sites um that you might be seeing in the future.

Um yeah, so that might ask for extensions that might ask for extensions.

Right.

So the the list we're not done with making these decisions.

Right.

Or at least making the recommendations on these decisions.

Thank you.

Um any other commissioner reports, comments, or questions before we move into the director's report tonight.

Yes, Commissioner Dubai.

Um briefly, the RHAWR group, they did meet last week.

Unfortunately, had a transportation emergency that did not allow me to get there in time.

Um but I do have I will get out a written report actually, since this is our last meeting on you'll have to wait till September.

Um but just so you know there is another interim director there.

The previous interim director resigned.

Um so they're on their third in the last year.

They are advertising for a permanent director.

And that's about it for that.

Um I did have the chance to attend the Alexandria Police Department's public safety summit on the 18th.

Um I don't know.

Was none of you guys were there?

Because I was told that a member of every or the chair of every board and commission was invited.

I was invited as part of the LEPC that I'm on.

But I didn't see I don't remember getting invited to that.

But that's what that's what I was told.

But anyway, there was a missed the EP.

There was a couple of hundred people there.

Was this the one on Holland Lane?

No, it was at the uh seminary.

Oh, right.

That the special invitation.

I did get the the news that it was there was a special invited guest list.

Yeah, but my understanding that the chairs of each board and commission were invited.

Okay.

I had nothing to do with it other than I got one.

Um but it was very interesting discussion.

It was most of the day, and um a lot of different people there, and we broke into small groups and talked about public safety issues that we were worried about in the city.

So it was good.

Great.

Does it have one request?

Excellent.

Hey, Commissioner Manor, go for it.

Um Waterfront Commission, which continues to fight for its life.

Um there's a lot going on, and I'll be brief because it's getting late, and I'll send a written report out, but just some highlights.

Um we had an excellent presentation by uh Vice Chair Robbins about um access to the waterfront by non-motorized watercraft.

And you all may be surprised to know that we you know advertise ourselves as a port city, and yet there is almost no place to tie up as a transient voter.

There are the spaces around VARCA, but that's it.

I mean, it's it's absurd.

And so I'll I'll send the presentation out uh that uh Mr.

Robbins made because it was excellent.

Um there's the waterfront commission walk coming up.

I believe it's this Saturday.

I'm waiting for details to come back about that, which I will also send out uh if there's interest in that.

And it's just kind of interesting to tour along there, given all the changes.

Um we had a report from Jack Browen from RPCA about the um the wreck of the piers there in Orinoco Bay near the uh boat house.

They're going to be removed before the end of June, and the pilings that are in the seabed will remain, so we don't have to get into any environmental aspect of that.

Um we sent a letter to the Sissy manager asking for additional public restrooms.

Um I also had a one-on-one with the mayor and said that there aren't sufficient restrooms, but there are many facilities along the waterfront that are essentially hidden and not marked, like the ones in the torpedo factory, like the ones behind Blackwall Hitch, like the ones on the land side of Barca.

And people don't know they're there.

And if we could have just improved the signage, that would be an inexpensive way to uh let our important visitors uh know that there are facilities available to them.

And lastly, and this is something I will get some more um detail out on.

We had a presentation from uh Matt Landis, who was uh uh chief of uh project implementation about the latest uh go round of flood mitigation, and that's of course very detailed, so I'll send that out specifically.

And lastly, we got something we're seriously considering the um the uh Point Lumley parking lot.

Uh and you might recall that the original waterfront plan pan um called for that to go away, and the commission still believes that is the right way to do, but the city has now come back and said it's going to be a staging area for whatever happens with the flood mitigation, and I know for a fact that restaurants along the waterfront are fighting very hard to keep that parking lot because particularly because the market square parking lot is closed for the next three years, and there's a big concern that that will be very disruptive to business down there.

And that's really it.

Uh as I said, I'll send out more detailed information that people can digest over the summer.

Great.

Thank you very much.

Of course.

Any other commissioner updates?

If not, um Director Stodd, you want to give your director's report?

I'm happy to.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

The uh so included uh it's a relatively short planning director's report uh this evening.

Uh the uh there we go.

Sorry about that.

The um uh so as uh was actually discussed uh earlier today.

I of course want to give an update on our next installment of the bi-monthly community meeting series.

Uh of course, uh this is how we get information out broadly to the general community uh about applications that are coming up uh or expected to come up in upcoming hearings.

Uh all of the past recordings, presentations, uh QA are are posted and available for the um uh for view on the city's website.

Our last meeting was held on uh May 19th, and there's I apologize for this.

There's a typo in my report.

Uh instead of Friday, July uh 17th, which is a terrible day of the week for a public meeting.

Uh it's actually going to be on Tuesday the 21st, uh, with the expectation that we'll get better numbers in attendance on that night.

Uh then also included uh again in the Department of Make No Surprises uh is uh the docket look ahead, uh, which takes us uh to the other side of the summer recess uh with the expected uh cases uh for the September hearing.

Uh but that concludes my report, and I'm happy to take any questions.

Can you remind me what time of night the um virtual community updates are?

I sure can.

If you give me a minute to search for the time, I think it's uh six o'clock comes to mind, but I'm gonna double check it.

Okay.

Yep, uh six to seven.

Uh and so we answer questions live at the end of the presentation.

Uh and then anything we've always been able to answer uh every question I asked asked in the the time frame, uh, but of course, anything that runs over, we want to be considerate of folks' time, and of course, we'll post the answer in the the QA.

Great.

Oh, our our look ahead is very sparse.

It is limited.

Uh so it is too far ahead.

Uh no, it's uh we are seeing sort of limited interest uh or or uh somewhat diminishing interest in in some of the applications that um we're seeing some folks still come in and express interest in maybe some longer term plans.

Uh otherwise we're generally seeing people step down in density.

Uh I think we continue to put out and and um we have an upcoming uh bus tour with AEDP and NAOP to talk about catalyst sites that are available throughout the community, and of course, we're stepping up our efforts to be more proactive in reaching out to property owners and potential developers so that when they do come in with applications, they're coming in with things that already look like the small area plans.

Uh and and that's common when applications are a little bit slower.

We put a little more uh effort into getting out the word about uh what the community wants to see.

Yeah, all right.

Well, thank you very much for this write up.

These are always nice to have.

Do you have us a sense of the flow?

Um last item is our minutes.

Does anyone have questions, comments, edits, or a motion to approve the minutes from June 2?

I'll make a motion to approve the minutes from June 2.

I'll second.

All right, I have a motion by Commissioner Lanahan and the second by Commissioner Ramirez to approve the minutes from June 2.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Opposed.

Was that an aye, Jody?

Aye.

Okay.

Awesome.

Uh motion carries six zero.

Motion to adjourn.

Motion to adjourn.

Second.

All right.

A motion to adjourn by Commissioner Lenahan, seconded by Commissioner Ramirez.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Opposed.

Motion carries six zero.

Thank you, everybody.

It's 9 33.