No, I have to fail.

Oh, yeah.

No, I can have a one single family.

How do we get to uh yeah it shows that's like no one seems to have to go to the files with our stuff.

So I'm not getting here.

Oh Jam that's entered it in.

Okay.

Um AJ, any ideas try to get to July 7th instead of July 2nd.

No, great.

Oh, though.

I'm not sure where I'm going.

So yeah, this is July 7th.

It says July 2nd.

Oh, I think it's gonna have the same action.

Oh, it does.

All right, we're all good.

I think it was just when Brandon File.

That was gonna be my question.

So the speech from the filition of corrections.

Okay.

Yeah, yeah.

Right.

That would be my minute.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Okay.

I entered that.

Yeah, what's the name?

Oh, okay.

Were you on the uh the corporate or the Christine?

Uh and 10.

So I think we're gonna go in Brandon gets back.

Alex, are you ready?

Yeah.

Okay.

Yeah, Sam.

Um could we break it on?

Uh Patty, are you good?

When you are going.

Yeah, yeah.

And then looking rested.

Feel good.

All right.

All right.

We're gonna call this meeting to order at six o'clock.

So welcome to the historical architecture review board meeting for July 7th, 2025.

Harb is an advisory body to city council.

City council renders the final decision of HARB recommendations.

Um guided by the design guidelines for Allen Tonford Historic Districts.

HARB review covers the general design arrangement, texture, material, and color of the building or structure, and the relation of such factors to similar features near your building structure or site in a historic district.

Anyone in attendance and wishing to comment on any of the listed items on tonight's agenda are required to sign in for records, the sign-in sheets right by the door.

Um staff will introduce and present a proposal through prepared report, which was provided to the applicant and board members for review prior to this evening's meeting.

The applicant can then provide additional context for the proposal before the HARB discusses and after being recognized by the HARP presiding officer myself.

Presentations are limited to 30 minutes and comments from any interested party other than the applicant are limited to five minutes after the presentation.

The board will discuss the merits of the project among themselves, but we'll ask the applicant and staff for relevant information to supplement the discussion.

If the applicant is not present at the meeting, or if the information provides not sufficient, the board may table a project until the next meeting to provide the opportunity for the applicant to be present and or supply sufficient information for discussion.

The proposal will only be tabled once.

The requirements are not satisfied at the following meetings.

Our recommendations will be forwarded to the next available city council meeting for final resolution.

Meanwhile, no work can proceed until council resolution and certificate of appropriateness is received.

Once received, you will then be able to pull any additional permits associated with your project.

That concludes our statement.

We'll go on to a roll call.

We will now respond with roll poll.

AJ Jordan.

Alexand Skelespie.

Philip Park.

Here.

Bob Hammond, here Huber.

Here.

We may proceed with the official business.

Good.

All right.

We'll move on to minutes from the June 2nd, 2025 meeting.

All board members had a chance to review any comments, revisions.

Also move.

Vote by Dave.

Second by Philip.

All is in favor of approval of June 2nd.

Any opposed?

Great.

Moving on to new business.

So representative for 1515 Linden Street.

Who's presenting 1515 Linden Street?

That's the bad shot.

We supposed to have a representative online.

So if we could come back to this item.

All right.

Move to the end of new business.

Okay.

Second from Patty.

Great.

All right.

All right.

229 North 9th Street.

Great.

Do you mind stating your name and address for the record?

Sure.

Joseph Cologne and physical street address for myself is 417 Francis Circle.

18052.

And are you a contractor owner of this property?

Right.

We'll begin with a staff reading.

229 North 9th Street is located in the old Allentown historic district.

It's a two and a half story brick and of row house, okay.

1880 in a composite style.

There's a commercial ground spround floor space as well as apartments above.

The project proposal is to replace the existing picture wood picture window with aluminum exterior storm with a vinyl frame and sash with one and one-quarter inch furniture grade wood veneer.

Existing window is in poor condition.

It is an inoperable, leaking, and beyond repair.

Staff observations and comments.

The existing wood picture window contains a mutton pattern that corresponds to the entry door transom.

The proposed vinyl window does not indicate a mutton pattern or divisions in the configuration.

For the guidelines, vinyl is not an appropriate replacement material for wood.

It'll be helpful to understand if the applicant explored replacing the current exterior storm window and if the replacement of the storm window would address water leakage.

If replacement of both the storm and the wood window is required due to extensive deterioration, a more appropriate window would be wood, aluminum clad wood, or fiberglass to match the original in size operation, profile and appearance, replicating the existing dimensions of glazing and configuration of muttons.

Staff recommend denying.

Spoke with four of them.

One was the contract that they brought to you, which was art from AWM, I believe it was.

Yes, Carpentry.

He said that he would be able to remove the window and rebuild the window.

I agreed with it.

And then they gave me an email stating that they would not continue with building that window that art was just too busy.

This was Tom Adams.

Tom Adams did say that they had a window that they could provide that was a wood window.

Once they sent their representative out, they did all their measurements, they reached out to me uh via email and said they could not, that it was three inches too large for them to replace.

The only one who did give me an estimate was Dykes Lumber.

Um she came out and gave me an estimate.

Um probably, I think it was maybe 3,000.

I agreed.

And then she came back via email and said that she could not.

Uh, and then re-sent another estimate saying that it would be around 7,000.

Uh so that was a bit out of my budget for that specific project.

So I just put her on hold.

I did speak with ABE Glass as well.

They said that I could potentially take the whole window out and drop it off to them.

They could not do that.

So my option for getting this building that I purchased in 2020 up and running, since there's no there's been no tenant down there since I purchased it, was to go with the quickest and the most available material or the most available window.

That's the window up there now that we went ahead and ordered.

Well, thank you for that due diligence.

So it was just the statements from them via email as well.

My other question or suggestion would be if the inappropriateness lies in the border around that would be revealed, which it's gonna be about an inch and a quarter of vinyl.

Could we have that encased in aluminum?

And then I would actually have muttons installed as well to match.

So this uh is a vinyl app would be mirror.

So I'm very curious to hear what the rest of the board has to think about this.

What's the current window made out of the sashes?

What they made of is that wood, correct?

Yes.

And do we have evidence that it needs to be replaced?

I'm sure I do with my phone.

Um also I'm pretty sure I have statements or emails from two contractors.

Well, what's wrong with it?

It needs to be replaced.

So the inside of the windows, they it doesn't open, uh, even though it's a double-hung window, it should.

It's also leaking water on the inside of the window.

Uh the window sills of about 10 inches inside, and it has water damage.

So it really sounds like a maintenance issue.

Um, something that can be repaired.

That's why I originally reached out to AMW Carpentry for the repair and also um ABE glass.

So no one would essentially come out and repair one window.

I was planning on at least trying it myself.

I watched YouTube or this old house, and supposedly it can be done.

Maybe taking what's broken on the inside from people trying to pry it open and epoxying it or puttying it.

Not necessarily the cost.

The rest of the unit is done.

It was supposed to be a 40,000 renovation for one unit without a kitchen, without a bathroom.

It's an 88,000 renovation.

It's already paid for complete, but I will not put a tenant in there with that issue.

I own other houses in the historic district.

I understand it.

I want to comply, but can't see a way around without delaying it further for myself.

But again, open to suggestions, Dave.

Uh, I you probably don't remember, but I met you before I do.

Okay.

Um but yeah, I spoke with uh Brandon a bunch of times, so definitely still open to suggestions.

If this window doesn't work, it doesn't matter.

I'll put it somewhere else.

But I want a suggestion that's not only gonna work in theory, but in practice as well.

Something that I could move forward for.

Five years is a little bit long for me.

Yeah, without seeing photo close-up photos in detail, it's hard to speculate.

Um I almost any window can be repaired, almost any one.

Absolutely.

Um it doesn't take a whole lot of skill.

If you have some basic skills, you you could probably do it yourself.

It's not rocket science.

Um not that hard to learn.

I mean, just basically, if it's any rotter, you just gotta hit it with the wood hardener and the epoxy.

It's it's not that difficult.

And if you can't get it open, maybe you just need some uh some paint remover or whatever, just uh and they they do make special tools to get in the crack to get the paint.

Yep, yep.

They I had uh the contractor out there, they uh first use a like a five and one and then a razor blade.

There's like a tool that looks like a five one, kind of, but it's got like teeth all around it, and it actually like I think they did more good with the pry bar.

Yeah, it sounds like they're gonna cause more damage in there.

But that's not how it has to be.

Correct, absolutely you could definitely say with like 95% certainty that you can definitely fix this.

I thought that as well.

That's why I'd save yourself a lot of money if you can do it yourself.

So well, I'm wondering it opens upwards, right?

It's supposed to, yes.

So is there like a pocket that circles in too?

Or is it not necessarily?

It will just open the size of that top set.

Oh, yeah.

Okay, so it only really opens about that much.

Correct.

And this being a commercial uh unit, uh, I also want it to look similar to the other commercial units that were there across the street.

We had Jack's glass.

I did reach out to Jack's glass as well.

Um, right down the street, they did another job.

They did my personal shower in my house to have it just a single glass.

So they didn't think it was a big issue, but that's why I ended up here.

Are you sure it was an operable window?

It wasn't a fixed panel on the bottom.

You can see the pulleys and all I mean and uh the road.

Yeah, and it's too they're two at two different uh like depths as well.

So and I believe it has a lock on it, or at one point.

I mean, if you were to repair it, at least you wouldn't have that much track to have to repair there.

Um, but is it leaping from the the glazing, or is it bleeping from the um where the wood meets the on the exterior?

If you look past the uh because there's a storm window on there currently.

Of course, I would like to get that removed just for aesthetic purposes to kind of bring it up.

Well, the facade's gonna get done as well, so don't worry about the rest of that.

But the storm windows are not actually up against the like the framing.

There's been aluminum uh framing there, and there's spaces and gaps in between there.

Well, I believe is happening is the rain sometimes, maybe driving rain or rain coming down, is just sitting in between there and kind of coming inside.

Because the rest looks like it was painted shut.

Well, at the bottom, there has to be we holes at the bottom, or else that water's gonna rot your window away.

It has to have a way to escape.

You can easily do that yourself as well.

And this is being leased as a as a commercial storefront moving forward or a residential unit.

No, it's commercial.

Yeah, for I think seven years now.

It's just not a hot window.

I'm I'm I'm struggling to understand it.

It's original to the structure.

It's just an odd placement.

I don't know.

I'm struggling to do the historic context for it.

Um at the neighboring structures on that street, nobody else has that.

Right.

That's where I'm stuck.

Usually they had the little stores on the corner property, though.

Most likely it was stores at some point.

I'd be curious what it would look like if you took that aluminum off and see where it's actually rotten out.

I might actually share quite a bit.

Must it be operable for code, or is there another reason you've not if it's commercial?

No, not necessarily.

Yeah, for commercial reasons, no.

That's why when I spoke with the contractor and a couple window contractors, they suggested just a picture window since it is commercial.

I would suggest just fixing it.

It's even easier if you don't have to get the sash out if you just leave it be and fix it up.

If you don't need it operable.

Can you do something like with the door where he puts in a frame piece, makes that bottom part of fixed window and then does a separate button?

Like a mutton button.

I think that was the offer we had.

That's something that I was open to as well.

Sort of a post-aplied button and a post-applied aluminum wrapping.

I'm I'm fine with that.

That obviously it wasn't presented tonight.

Would would we be able to you know vote on something like that, you know, offered by the applicant, AJ?

Uh we we could vote on that if there was agreement across the board.

I think there were two tests we have to establish is whether or not the drone window can be repaired, which I think we're working through, and then whether or not this alternate material would satisfy the guidelines.

But we can definitely add a uh contingent to add to match the mutton pattern.

Okay.

Um other questions from the board or reading through guidelines.

I just have a so you can't just replace the bottom like picture window part and treat that top sash as like a transom and leave that there.

And like what's all part of the same window?

I don't think it is.

I I think what I heard is they're two separate statues.

So you just let the top one in and then put a fixed one down below.

I don't know how they would deal with that from a framing perspective for the rail.

That might be the only difficulty.

Is there an issue with the frame?

The frame on the exterior or framing in a new window with that section.

Is there an issue with the existing window frame?

I haven't touched the exterior window frame to see if it was rotted through and it's painted over some of the paint is either bubbling or peeling, but I haven't touched it to see if it went through or see if there was an issue from the interior.

It didn't appear that there was an issue with the uh not the frame of the window itself, but what it was nailed or screwed to, because I took all the walls down.

I'm not sure if you can see any of the other things we did at the property, but there were no walls in there, no floor in there, no ceiling.

Um, everything would be new.

So we did brand new framing there.

And I believe if I recall correctly, that frame on the exterior of that specific window should have been okay.

But I could look back in photos and see I I was pretty meticulous with taking the photos from inside and see if there was any noticeable damage.

I'm not willing to approve any replacement.

We don't have evidence that it needs to be replaced.

If you can come back with evidence, that's a whole different story.

So we do have a staff recommendation for denial.

I'm hearing a similar temperature from you, but uh I'd love to hear from the rest of the board what the considerations are.

I agree.

We gotta see if it actually needs if it can be repaired.

I think that that's absolutely you can't tell from these photos.

But I think that if it if it can't be repaired, we've got to then we can consider other options, but we don't have evidence that it needs to be repaired.

I mean replaced.

Aside from myself.

Because I would think it's on you to prove that it needs to be replaced.

Absolutely.

Aside from myself with the statement, how could I go about getting the information to video, send them to Brandon?

Right?

But in the past, we've accepted statements from contractors.

I have it's gotta be a good detailed description of why it can't be like, yeah, this needs to be replaced.

That's not gonna fly.

Sure, sure.

I'm not sure how thorough the contractors are.

I know they're not as thorough as I am for contractors that I've dealt with.

Um but uh I can definitely ask them because I've had two contractors work in that property.

Uh actually three, because Earl Endy was also in that property.

Um but so my question, I I like to go one step at a time, Alter.

And I certainly appreciate the dude.

I mean, you're very well prepared, you know, you're talking about it.

And you've done everything.

I absolutely appreciate that.

Um yeah, I like working with people who are in in that position.

Um if we kick this into next month to allow you time to come back and show all that stuff, the place isn't gonna fall down in a month, right?

Uh no, I don't think so.

Then I then I I would I would be inclined to go with that.

Yeah, I'd be I'd be highly recommend that you approach it as the contractors with um the idea of repairing it rather than re fixing it because three contractors I had there would not everyone recommend to replace it.

Do you have that in any of the the documents?

There's more money in that document.

It's so obvious there's more the uh in emails I do.

I received estimates actually from three contractors.

Do you have the emails with you?

I mean, I'm trying to see what we can do tonight system.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so that's that's test one.

If we determine that the window is suitable for replacement, the proposed replacement of the wood clad vinyl.

Yeah, what I'm getting at is I think it's sort of kicking the can down the road.

I mean, clearly he's made a sincere effort to try to repair it.

No contractor has touched it.

If he can put together some paperwork, you know, which I think he has.

I think he just has to scrap it together for us.

I I think where we're going is it's a replacement.

So what are we gonna accept on the replacement side?

Right, right.

Yeah, I wouldn't want to go through the effort of uh tabling this to have us not approve the replacement window.

Right.

So um assuming the wood window needs to be replaced.

Is the proposed replacement a suitable alternative or deleting not vinyl we talked about altering that, right?

To put like a window or top of it.

Yeah, certainly not as we're clearly not comfortable with as proposed, but you you may be able to you know modify it to be line.

I was thinking again if I went ahead and capped it with aluminum fully, so there would be no exposed vinyl and added the buttons.

It's not just to be the vinyl being exposed, it's it's the base uh the whole like the structure is vinyl, and that doesn't hold up over time.

I mean, this window's probably been there, the SAS probably been there a hundred years or so, right?

150 years.

Vinyl's not gonna look what 15 years, 20 years, maybe that's what it would be as well.

That's why they recommended uh it would be wood.

This one's really small, but this is furniture grade wood veneer with a vinyl exterior.

Because once I told them the size of it and they came out and measured, they couldn't do just vinyl.

So wood so it's um vinyl clad wood is what you're saying to you.

Yeah, that's what they're telling me here.

Yeah.

Well, if they can do that, why can't they do aluminum clad wood?

That's uh permitted by the guidelines.

This company also does a wood window, and that's what it was originally in Dallas.

And they told me they were going to be able to get me one, and then they did not.

I would buy a wood window.

It's not the money anymore.

It's costing me more in delays.

Sure.

I just need someone can point me who or how or fix it, I wouldn't pay.

I haven't given my call here.

Okay.

I thought ABE was a lot bigger than the buttons.

I'm definitely interested.

Uh I'm only here for advice.

I'm learning every day.

I'm new.

I've only been doing this maybe eight years.

I own other property.

Actually, one of my properties uh at 428 North 8th Street.

You guys picture it all the time on the front of the uh harv.

And I I love it.

I used to walk to school living in Allentown.

I'm not even bored past all the beautiful houses.

I love that.

I don't want to change it.

This is why I buy houses in this area.

I can buy anywhere.

I buy in this particular area.

If anyone has a house for sale in the area, if they say the address, I've been in it, my friends lived in it.

35 years in that small pocket.

I love it.

I don't want to change it, but I'm not here.

If that window doesn't go through, I'll keep it in a basement somewhere.

I'm here for guidance and help and assistance.

So don't think that this is the only option for me.

I I'm open to whatever ideas you guys have.

When I came in and I read your name, I was excited because I know you're wealth of knowledge.

So at one time in my career, I would have, I would I would have done it for you, but uh I know I know.

There's not a lot of people that want to do that because well, it takes special skills, and also there's oh we're not in the market that you can make a lot of money.

No, like if it was Philly or somewhere else, you know.

There's contracting.

They have a historical base in Philadelphia where they restore old windows in Philadelphia.

Exactly.

I contemplated them too.

But I didn't know about taking this window out myself.

But I didn't know about taking this window out myself if I would have been more damage, transporting it, having plywood up there for three or four months, which now is seeming like a good idea, but uh at the time.

No, I definitely understand the frustration, appreciate the efforts here.

I think we all want to get this up and running.

Um we just have to match the guidelines and what's a proof.

So I'm I've been over here reading the alternate materials section of the guidelines, seeing you know what is possible here, and it does clearly state that the the vinyl is is just not recommended due to short lifespan, poor performance, and inability to match historic profiles.

So I think those first two reasons are something that I think we would need proof that this doesn't, you know, like has the lasting uh uh longevity of of an actual wood window.

Um we have we have approved alternate materials in the past, right?

But um special service, yeah.

I mean, is it possible to order instead of having a fixed or uh uh an operable window?

You just gotta fix wood window with that transom pattern, like treat it like a transom and had the whole window unit built that way.

Would that work?

I I don't want to speak for the rest of the board, but I believe that would yes, um, meet most of the guidelines.

There's a mutton debate here that we need to have, but um I mean the transom would have the muttons you could have it built that way, um, and it would just be one fixed window.

I think I did um that was from the Michelle at Dykes Lumber.

She gave me an original estimate, maybe I think it was like $3,500.

I agreed.

He went ahead and put the order in and then got back to me at 7,500 because it was a bit too big at that time, which was in June 5th of 2024.

But it's too big as one unit instead of two.

Uh they said um maximum width for single slash double hung wood or aluminum windows is 65 inches.

Uh you have a 68-inch frame.

I think what they're saying is because it's double hung, what I'm saying is don't make it a double-hung window, just make it a fixed window.

Yeah, a picture window, yeah.

A picture window correct with the mutton design.

Transom on top.

Yep.

Um then she came back to me with the 7,500.

So at the time, I guess I was kind of like disappointed that oh, this is more than double.

Come on, what happened?

And then I reached out to another company, and then I kind of tabled it from there.

My expectation at first was when I've had the three contractors.

Oh, we do this all the time, it'll be easy.

Uh and then speaking with Jax Glass, who was doing the one across the street, he said, Oh, yeah, I mean, this big one was 3500.

You're just about half the size, maybe half the price, but you'll have to call and find out.

So I had some kind of preconceived notion or expectation of my brain.

I wonder if you could pick the top there and turn that into a case of some kind too if you need to get airflow in there.

Something like that.

Yeah, yeah, I think we are we're moving toward a table.

Um, but I just want to be clear what the the specific asks are just to not waste waste this applicant's time.

Um just just bring some evidence of the the deterioration of the current window that is a kind of high bar that you have to get across that is not reparable.

Um, and then the alternate material is uh yeah, it's it's uh we there's a lot of options, it's just vinyl, is very clearly.

Yeah, that's not a problem.

Um the other option is just fix it before next month.

You won't have to come back.

Yeah, you don't have to see this again.

Um if I had somebody who would I wouldn't do it, but trust me, when I'm sure you guys know I have hire contractors all the time to do a lot of work.

I have my personal bathroom downstairs in my basement, four contractors, two replies saying I'll get back to you, nothing afterwards, not even an estimate.

It's unfortunate.

Yeah, I do before before we table this.

I do before before we table this, I do want to check with the rest of the board on whether the buttons are a requirement.

In another place, no.

Yeah.

Staff staff recommends yes because they reflect the transom above the door.

I don't see context for this, but I'd like to hear from the board.

It sounds like yes.

It's got to be the same configuration.

Same light configuration.

Okay.

And how would I go about getting an exception for that?

Having other properties in the old Allentown Historic District that have similar windows to mine with different style transform above their doors.

It's obvious that not every single one of them are illegal.

I would completely not believe that.

It stands out to me that this like configuration is unique to this property.

And so it's the context is limited in that unit only and not the neighborhood.

Right.

Um I get an exception to that.

I'm sorry, I can't.

No recommendation for getting around that.

It's it's part of history.

Um anything else that we should discuss.

It sounds like we need to table this.

Do you have any other questions?

Um the only uh my only question is we're looking for proof in order to have it replaced next time we come in for the meeting.

And that would be photos, video, and the contractor's information.

Especially good clear high def photos that we can zoom in on and really absolutely uh you could bring the window in and we can look at it and I think that explanation from a contractor why it cannot be written.

Hey, this can't be repair, but what the reasons are absolutely, absolutely.

Yeah.

And just to be clear a fixed window with the same light configuration would be acceptable.

I believe so.

I mean, yeah, okay.

So that may be something to look at, of course, the bikes or whatever.

Right.

Anything else?

Sounds like I need a motion to table.

Comment with the with the additional materials when when you have the photos or the letters and such, you can submit them to Brandon ahead of the meeting.

So that way staff can kind of just look through and review and if we have any suggestions for additional views and finish point before the meeting, then you're all set.

I'll I'll make a motion that we table this the next month for um information.

Right, so the needs to be replaced or he finds a solution and then replaced uh repairs it.

All right.

We have a motion to table one month.

Do we have a second?

We got two seconds.

Yeah, they're gonna keep me out in the holiday next month.

Any opposed to tabling on me in trouble every time.

All right.

Thank you.

Uh no, not a problem.

There, I appreciate all the work in it.

All right, moving on to maybe 1619 Turner Street.

That was exactly 30 minutes.

All right.

Uh, do we have a representative for 1619 Turner?

Great.

You mind stating your name and address for the record?

Uh Jay Robinson.

1619 Turner.

And are you uh owner or contractor?

Owner.

We'll begin with the staff reading.

Okay.

1619 Turner Street is located in the West Park Historic District.

It's a three-story brick row house, circa 1910, and it is a porch house.

The mansard roof has red clay tile, triple dormer with one over one stash windows, transom, stone lintel, parapet wall, and a single chimney.

The proposed work is to replace the tile on the mansard on the third floor due to leaking inside the home.

Many of the tiles are brittle and cracked.

Replace the tile with GAF timber line HDZ shingles in Patriot Red.

Realign the box gutters on both sides of the dormer, install cap shingles on left side where existing shingles are.

Install an aluminum divider to transition on the right side where the neighbor's tile roof will remain.

Ice and water shield in valleys and transitions using GAF felt buster deck protection.

JAF Pro Start strip shingles, GAF seal ridge cap shingles, oversized strip edging, cuss custom copper corner flashing, bridge saddle flashing, and kick out flashing.

Staff observations and comments.

The guidelines note that terracotta tile roofs are a character defining feature of the West Park Historic District.

Maintaining this quality is an important aspect of the district.

It'll be helpful to understand if repair of the mansard was attempted.

Such as the submitted GAF timber line HDZ are consistent in color to the original material, but do not match in material exposure, thickness, and overall dimension.

It would be helpful to understand if alternative material replacement materials were explored that would provide a closer match to the physical qualities of the existing clay tile.

Staff recommend denying.

And the other is uh just a standard shingled roof.

Yes.

Have you had any discussion with them as far as um incorporating your project with I did?

Okay.

And he said no.

He he didn't initially say no, he said maybe, and then he said no.

So the only way we they can uh set that is either put aluminum strip down or take the tile and cover or take the ass shingle and cover the tile.

And I said we don't want to do that.

Right.

Yeah.

Should we replace so they can't be repaired after that's my question?

Oh yeah, this is we'd have to do this.

How many tiles are broken?

Have anybody been out there?

Uh yeah, there's probably maybe 12 at the bottom, two rows, and then by the tree side where the branches are, there's probably five up top.

Because what I'm thinking is that the company actually made these tiles.

They're still in business.

You might be able to find a few tiles.

Yeah, but to find a contractor to do that.

Every I called four contractors.

Three of them said gave me estimates for this, and they all said they wouldn't repair it.

Because you have to take the roof off and then put it back on.

Besides my house, there's one other house in the block that has the red tile left.

That's why it's so much more important that it's stays.

Yeah.

But where were we when all the other roofs because a board when all the other roofs got replaced shingle?

As a matter of fact, I think you just replaced one at 16th or they just replaced tile at 16th and the two turner.

Really?

The corner apps.

Probably earlier this year, or maybe in November flash.

Oh, I think that's the one we're just discussing, taking the collection.

So yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you.

We're aware of that.

Um we have this is very similar to the last application.

We have uh a staff recommendation for Nile.

We don't have solid evidence of deterioration of the current tiles and proposed alternate is not in keeping with the guidelines, particularly because it's a shape configuration.

I think that's the that's this proposed tile.

Uh the timber line HDZ is not in keeping with the guidelines because of the shape configuration.

Um at the same position as the last application where we would just need further evidence uh that it cannot be recorded.

Any other thoughts for the board?

I think we have a whole different.

I know somebody's actually replacing themselves.

I know it's a lot of extra work, but yeah, I mean it's talking affordability too here.

You know.

I mean I've had the top transit or the top pieces.

Gentleman was doing work at West Internet right across from church of the media.

There's a slate roof uh house there, and he was doing work and I asked him to come over.

He said each one of those top pieces are 250.

There's got to be nine of them.

That's not installed, that's just purchase.

Yeah, but no, I understand that I mean it's the the plate roofs are uh a generational investment every time you have to replace them.

Um it was premium housing at the time.

That's how I did it.

Guidelines are clear on this.

Yeah, so a compelling reason to overturn the guidelines.

So I mean, I I think our options today are either deny as recommended by staff or to table if there's uh compelling alternate options.

Um I'm not sure if somebody would like to make a recommendation.

I'm not hearing a clear.

I'll make it, but I want to make sure we're on the same page.

Sorry.

Let me give a thought.

I have so many thoughts.

Yeah, I have a very long math.

Um I like I agree.

I think that you need to decide.

I mean, the same situation before, but how are you gonna find somebody who could do it?

Everyone's probably gonna say they can't do it.

So I don't, yeah, I don't know how you would go about finding somebody who could.

So I'm kind of a little out of my wheelhouse here.

I had the same problem when I did the when I was here two years ago, I believe, for the tin roof.

There was no one in the valley who would do the rolled tin roof.

Uh you use this house as a picture for the R.

I had uh, you know, little magazine so forth, but I uh couldn't find anybody to do the roll tin.

And you approve the rolled rubber.

It depends on the visibility of the roof.

Alex or Rob, any thoughts?

Yeah, and in May we had an application from 155 street, which had an existing um red tile roof and sort of the it ended up being a um denial for other reasons, but the the the thought process of the board was to um approve a shingled roof, provided that it was red rather than holding to the the tile material.

Um I'm I'm having trouble understanding why the tile I like the tile material in my heart.

I think I think that's what makes the house.

I think that's the most important feature of this house, just as it was of 1552, but uh the board seems to be you're more married to the material than to the uh whereas it was willing to let it go for a red shingled roof in May.

I think that I recall properly that was um with some special.

Oh yeah, there was a lot of circumstances.

That was in the circumstances that was non non-fustlement setting.

Um we all kind of I don't think anybody really liked that one though either, but I I understand your question, Robert.

I think that was specifically with the circumstances you need the property and this this entire row, yeah, kind of has the same thing, same color tile there.

The that other proposal though, it we definitely added a condition that it wasn't the shake tile.

It's that there's the material question, but also the the shake pattern.

That shake pattern I can't remember ever approving on any application.

Um I believe we very similar to the jersey tile we're talking about, where we ended up doing just the you know, the square tiles that kind of replicate the uh the terracotta tile.

But it was a it was a metal tile, right?

Because that's what I I was aiming for on that one was the like aluminum tile, um, because it it still kind of maintains that profile, but uh as I recall the the board was willing to accept just a shingle.

Um for 1552, that was the one that there was a violation previously, and there was one portion, so that was denied, but there was also 1548 to a couple doors down that already had a red asphalt roof on it.

So that was the one where the there was the conditions for the color being preserved uh material and shape, and that it would still be uh presented to staff purple.

So being certainly the junior board member, I'm I'm trying to understand that the position of the board as far as retaining this material.

I think this I think this is the character defining feature of the house.

But it you know, looking at the context of every other house in this row other than the end unit, um it's all gone.

So it has the board just accepted um shingles for all the neighbors or no, no, uh, there were a lot of violations that had to go through legal and takes many many years.

So it's definitely better to go through this process, uh, but we can't deteriorate this house because the other house are going through the legal process.

Um if you're concerned about that tile, we can change that tile.

It's just a better quality tile.

Yeah, so the the concern um historically has been with the shape pattern.

It's you know the enabled sides to I would certainly can change that.

Uh we have accepted other alternate materials that just aren't in that shake pattern to replace um terracotta tiles based on other circumstances, including deterioration of context, and I think that the other conditions that were is what we're missing here.

Uh why this cannot be repaired, what what makes it beyond repair, and what is the context that allows us to alternate material.

Um to Rop's point, there is you know, if we get past that hurdle, there are alternatives here.

Um I just I just know that I shake that that that this one won't cut it, but there are other alternatives that I would research definitely before we get to the next meeting.

Um we need to get past that hurdle of why this can't just be repaired.

Um, and uh then two of the contracts they said they were brittle and they were afraid that if they start peeling them off, they'd all crack.

I can get that information for you.

It'll be helpful.

Yeah, I can get might not make hard.

We might get him to write something for me and send it off to Brandon.

Yeah, and if there's multiple people collaborating that though or corroborating that, that would be helpful as well to know that this is extreme circumstances that requires to change materials.

Bottom line is I can't afford that you know replacing that tile.

Financial hardship would be a different pathway then too, right?

Yeah, which is also very very similar.

There is a right.

Um yeah, I'm just saying I can't afford to do that.

Is it currently leaking?

Yes, both sides of the um bottom window in a closet on the third floor.

Just past rainstorms.

I have buckets in the I'm I'm losing the wood, they have a wood column up top and it's draining right through the wood.

Box cutters leaking box cutters are leaking, water's getting in up inside the window and weeping down into the bedroom, uh both sides of the bedroom ceiling.

You had mentioned that you had spoken to somebody about potential replacement pieces for the top things like that.

Were they able to give you any pictures or I just I worry about if you just put a 12 new shingles repair it, it's going to look worse because they won't match or be obviously not you know comparable.

Yeah, I mean just adding well, there's no way I could get they were I understand that.

I get that.

I'm just yeah, no, I did not uh replace it because it breaks but like they replaced slates all the time, and they look different.

It's just uh okay.

I just wanted to make because it was looking pretty uniform to me.

That's just what it's yeah.

I mean the thing with terracotta is usually it is pretty robust.

I am curious what they would actually charge for these tiles directly from the manufacturer because the ones on the top at least should be available.

The thing is we have this position where you have the product out there, but unfortunately it doesn't seem to be a conservation um basically culture, so there's nobody to install it.

And unfortunately, it seems like we can't even get that for historic districts.

Like wouldn't even know who to contact other than flagging that guy down, coming over and telling me.

And this was three years ago when he was working on that slate roof over there.

Are there any other questions or comments before tabling?

So I'll need to table this for the next meeting in order to allow the applicant to present um substantiated evidence that there must be um evidence that would overturn the use of of the current materials to provide something that is that is more that we won't work this.

Right.

We have motion to table for one month with the loud enough for staff taking to provide the applicant the ability to show there's compelling evidence to choose a new material instead of repair what is what is currently there.

Do the second tape.

And then also like an alternative.

Then alternative relation for that.

What's the recommendation?

Well, alternatives from the shape shingle.

Right, and the guidelines will indicate that.

Uh yeah, okay.

It's written there.

Yeah, okay.

It's there's defined things.

So unfortunately, it's got like a red expert jacket with like a picture of your tile, and then a bunch of other options actually that are by the applicant the ability to present alternative materials that are suitable for the guidelines.

Yep.

Understood that this is time sensitive, but I I've had water issues also.

It's not fun.

All right, we have uh motion to table as our second.

Oh second.

Second from Dave, all those in favor of tabling one month.

Aye.

Any opposed.

And just like the previous applicant, if you find alternate materials, send them to staff in advance of next month.

We can you know get it moving as fast as possible before the repeat property.

Yeah, okay.

Thanks.

All right, moving on to 1420 Linden Streets.

Hi.

Uh, do you mind saying your both representing the property?

This is the contractor and I'm the owner.

All right, do you mind stating your uh for the record?

I'm uh Ramarian Elias.

And uh addresses uh my home address 775 North 38th Street.

And uh uh Samuel Mulet, uh design is what with Home Depot.

LA OK.

Great.

We'll begin with a staff reading on 1420 Linden Street.

1420 London Street's located in the West Park Historic District.

It's a three-story brick end of row house circa 1911, and it's a porch house with multiple dwelling units.

Um the project uh proposed work is to remove and replace 20 windows in the same size as the existing with no structural change.

All the same windows are vinyl and will be replaced with Simon Ton 6100 series vinyl windows.

The applicant application states that 20 windows are intended to be replaced, and the annotated photographs account for 15 windows.

More information would be helpful to understand the additional windows proposed for replacement.

While the application indicates that new vinyl windows are to replace existing vinyl windows, several existing windows appear to be wood windows with exterior storms per the guidelines.

Whenever possible, wood windows should be repaired rather rather than replaced evidence of the existing window condition should be submitted for review, including close-up photographs.

While there are no annotations indicating the front elevation windows are proposed for replacement, there are decorative leaded glass panes in the upper register of the second or bow window and wood windows with a mutton grin at the third floor.

These elements should be retained and maintained.

Stack recommend denying.

You can see like at the bottom there, those are those are all vinyl windows in the front um porch area when you walk in uh the bottom there on the first floor.

There are multiple vinyl windows throughout.

There are a couple wood windows that are in place.

Um again, you know, trying to give uniformity to the home as well.

Um kind of makes sense not to mention the energy efficiency that we're trying to work with as well in a home like this.

Yeah, uh so when what I've been doing with the building since I purchased it in May, I've been uh putting electric baseboard heat through the unit.

And the problem that I've been hearing after the fact, which after I pulled the permits and everything's you know going smoothly, everyone was telling me electric baseboard is very expensive on the tenants, and there's only one in reality way to help the tenants save money on the energy bill is to take the take out the windows that are leaking a lot of air or don't even open fully, just get rid of them, put new stuff in.

And when he was telling you how they put the windows in, they seal it up twice.

It's brand new, it's gonna hold the energy in.

So it'll keep the bills down for the tenants, which is pretty much my goal here.

My goal is just to keep everything looking pretty, not make anything you know ugly.

Some of the windows that don't shut or don't open right now, will not pass inspection for my CL anyway.

So I figured to have a professional company come seal up the house and you know, get some nice new windows in there.

Yeah, I'm struggling with uh matching matching the window numbers all over.

So I'm missing 11, 12, 13.

I yeah, they should have been sent though.

I'm not sure.

I have a right here if you want to see them.

Yeah, I think it's also which elevations they are front elevators.

So 11, 12, and 13 are the three right there that you're looking at uh above the side.

Yep, yeah.

They should have been sent.

I'm sorry if they were not.

And then it's you know, it's it's a little alley there.

So in order to get pictures, you can't get the height that you would love to get um up there.

Yeah, it's really truly nice.

If there's an additional picture with additional windows, yeah, I don't know why it wasn't sent.

I mean, I it should have been all together all together, right?

Yeah, yeah.

It's it's 11, 12, 13, 16, and 17.

So just sparkles and just leave.

Those missed ones.

Yeah, so that's those right there.

There's a second floor.

Just the second and second and third, right?

30 and 16 and 17 are at the top.

Okay.

Um it's the whole house.

Everything except that first floor front window.

I'm not touching that one.

That has vinyl.

Every vinyl is uh gonna be replaced.

Oh hopefully.

We have to do one.

Right.

So right off the bat, you know, we've discussed this a couple times tonight.

Vinyl just isn't thinking with the guidelines or its durability.

Um, one thing I'm thinking here with all of these windows is what is within our purview, right?

Those front windows, I believe, definitely 100% are.

Yeah, and I 100% don't think the vinyl proposal will fly in any reading of the guidelines, but I am curious about the back and side windows.

They're not visible from the street.

Yeah, I'm okay with sacrificing those for the front facade.

I'm not okay with putting those words on the record.

Yeah, but um in interpreting the guidelines that have to be visible from the public right of way.

Um, I'm curious, Steph, you went out and reviewed and determined the rear and side are right.

I don't think they're they're very visible, actually.

Yeah, yeah, the only one I'm debating is is okay when the main window on the side, but at that point, I could make an argument for consistency on that side, but that that is those are currently one allowable, are they?

I don't know.

Number eight, one number ten, yeah.

Eight, nine, ten.

So um it sounds like we're in the exact same position where we have a staff recommendation for denial, but there are some potential uh ways to move forward here.

So I kind of think we're leaning toward another table, unfortunately.

I know there's you know I just want to just say something real quick.

Just from doing this for like five and a half years working with Home Depot and having to deal with you know Harb and the City of Allentown.

Um even like a project like like Mr.

Cologne.

So there's no companies that come out for one window.

Home Depot will come out for one window, and we can fix that.

You want the 400 series windows in the facade, and you can we can use the five 100 series on the side or the back if it's not visible.

We completely understand that.

The issue that you deal with is when you go into homes like this that have vinyl windows, the cost that it would cost for somebody to put in like 20, like Anderson 400 series windows is astronomical.

No one can afford it.

The issue that you're dealing with too in Harb is you it's hard to get any contractors to to do any type of work like that whatsoever.

Small jobs like that's very difficult.

And then what happens is here in the city of Allentown is you have so many people that just go around you and just put in their vinyl windows and never say anything, and nothing ever happens, but they don't put them in right and then they leak, and then the properties actually get damaged, and then you have water issues and all that moving forward.

Whereas Home Depot who's coming in as a legitimate company who warranties installation windows, everything, we're doing the jobs right.

We're trying to make uniformity in these, you know, homes look nice because my background's in design.

I would rather have everything look the same as opposed to a couple windows here, a couple windows like that.

I don't feel like that really keeps the integrity of the downtown.

And you know what I mean?

Like I hate to say it, but like a lot of us are punished for doing things the correct way by going through the permit process, following procedures.

If we can put Anderson windows in facades where there's like a couple windows, that makes sense.

We but most people cannot afford it at all.

You're looking at astronomical prices, and some people are purchasing these properties and have no idea what's happening, and then you have transient selling and and buying of property, which is not helping the city of Allentown whatsoever.

I agree completely, and that's why we have this discussion pretty consistently on making sure that the other cases don't fall to the grass of the technically hurt.

Right.

Um I'll give you sort of an anecdotal um you know example of this.

So um my colleague Brandon and I were out today doing a final inspection on a project which obtained uh a historic permit, and just in the drive to and from that inspection, we um tag two properties that were under construction, which did not have stored permits, and were you know the work was being done in violation.

So even though it it may seem you know that we're we're not catching non-compliant ones.

Um we are if you do observe anybody who doesn't appear to be complying, um, please let us know, and we will start enforcement.

Um you can't hear an argument that hey, we're here presenting an application, please present please accept our application because we're here presenting it.

It has to be in keeping with the guidelines.

So that's why um, you know, what we're saying is we understand that the majority of the windows that you're actually putting on your application, we don't even need to have a conversation about, but there's what the five in the front.

But the here's the point that I would make to you guys too about windows in general.

If we put in the Anderson 400 series window, which complies, it's vinyl cladding.

It's a vinyl exterior window, which is gonna look exactly the same as a vinyl window that you put in.

There's no difference to it whatsoever.

I just want you guys, you know, whether or not you you move forward or not, you know.

I don't have any control over it, but I'm just saying to you guys you have to take a lot of this under consideration, you know, with with the the aesthetic look.

Well, unfortunately, we can't take a lot of what you're saying under consideration.

Our our job as a board is to interpret the guidelines.

Then there's council and other departments that can maybe take some of that under consideration, but we have a set of guidelines that we're agreeing to by the neighborhood, and and we're we're applying that.

We understand that there are complications with a lot of this, and windows are always the most frustrating part of any historic district.

Um, with city staff in the room, I I would echo the comments of uh finding a contractor is difficult.

And um, and I think we could as a as a city do a better job of providing a list of approved permitted contractors um to reward the contractors that are doing the correct thing.

Um, so that it's not always just a stab in the dark.

So thank you for for going down the correct path.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, I really appreciate that.

I want to make I want to note too that you know I live right around the corner from there, and there's like that there's I think four right in a row there, they're beautiful.

This helps is great.

I was happy to see a change hand.

I'm glad that you care to do that.

So I try.

Thank you.

So I'm very fairly new at this.

So no, I'm very happy to see you here that you want to do things right away.

We're not trying to hold this thing up, you know, we want to get it done properly, but thank you for the you know the the interest and the intent that you have to keep this thing.

It's it's not really to keep it's not as much to keep it nice as it is to keep it nice, but on top of it, I I like to take care of the people that are gonna live in it.

I don't want to I don't want them to be for lack of a better screw.

I don't want them to come in and then two months in they're gonna call me and say, hey Romario, I can't afford my bills.

I I'm doing my best to help other people as well.

I've been born and raised here.

So I I love the town.

So I do I do my best, I do what I can.

I was about to say, though, even though we're moving probably toward the tabling instead of a recommendation for denial, that this is this application is maybe a step ahead than the previous two because we have the contractor here, and there is potential for an alternate of this front window versus the objects on the sides, so that there could potentially be a compromise there.

Um I don't think in our application we have the 400 series that you presented for us to move forward with, but that could theoretically be a condition if we if we approved this series of uh vinyl clad aluminum windows that the board.

I I'm not convinced that the board uh would interpret the guidelines that that match in form scale massing divided light, stuff like that for these five local front.

The remaining uh 15 windows can be the proposed battle material, and the reason we would give for that is they are not within the public right-of-way and therefore outside our purview.

That is something that we could definitely move forward with, I believe.

Um for the front five windows, I think there's still a design.

The one at the bottom that was vinyl.

That's a it's it's a vinyl window that's down there, the bottom.

Yeah.

Um replace.

Yeah, and I think that's my point that we couldn't replace that one, but it would still be vinyl.

You have to change it.

And I'm not sure how how early we were before the meeting, but right before the record started, we were discussing with legal what the the in in in kind replacement uh legal definition is.

And one of the the clips we made was if you can prove that they installed vinyl in 1890, maybe we'll accept that.

But you know, but then you know, like using window as him taking the house over there, he had the final window there.

Right.

So he's he's not gonna change that.

I we can change out the rest of them, but that's still gonna be there.

Yeah, it's you know what I mean.

Like it's a violation, right?

Uh it's not it's not his violation because he purchased it like that, though.

You know what I mean?

But if that would be replaced, it needs to be replaced back to the original context.

Um question for you.

Yeah.

Um so what you're saying is those five, the three on the second floor and then the two on the top floor.

Those need to be the other kind, the special windows that cost a I'm not convinced that that's that's what those other 15 that I want to replace.

Would that be like let's say that's approved to do right now?

Could I do those?

Because those specific 15, my opinions they need to be changed like right now to get my.

Yeah, so I don't know how that would work if if we would that's because that would have to be a separate application.

So I don't know if we can have to this application options for that.

You need an application.

Do you want?

Yeah.

I was even curious if you could modify it.

We're on a record when I can't imagine all of us getting into a missionary.

So one at a time.

Sorry, can we listen to the owner for a second?

What was the question?

I was just curious if uh if it's approved under the fact that those five are those Anderson windows that are more expensive.

And those 15 can be those approved.

So there are, let's say, hypothetically already approved.

So the installation of those 15 happen while we're waiting for the other five to be approved, like when we send over the documents of what kind of material it's gonna be and things like that.

I so the the front windows, I don't believe we are able to just approve now because we need to know what material they are and discuss it as a board, and we don't have those in front of us.

So that's where the table would come in.

The remaining the remaining 15 windows would still need to go through a city approval process, but would need to come before Harb for reason of its outside Harb Purview because they're on the non-prominent side of the house.

And I I believe staff is hearing that the board is comfortable with that that aspect moving forward.

If you want to move forward on those 15 windows, I believe we could maybe uh set uh approve that today, excluding the front five windows to allow that to move forward, but then the front window would have to come through a separate application and come before the board again.

We could do that.

Absolutely.

So that's I believe where we're at.

Is there a question here?

Can we keep that all on one or should we just split it?

I think we have to split it because we can we can't.

I don't think we can create conditions that approve the front five without seeing them.

That's just my uh standard.

Would we approve with recommendations or would we deny and just do another application for the five?

So I mean we would be approving because it's outside of purview.

So I don't know.

That would be uh I don't think we send it back to City.

Because this application came for Harb because it's recommended, but if the application is amended to exclude the five that are outside that are within our purview, is that an approval or dialogue?

We already have to go and have to go for the park we would so what we said, what do we need, what action do we need to take to someone?

That the side windows are that the front windows are are excluded for reasons uh and the remaining 15 windows are allowable because they're outside our curtain.

Correct.

We would approve with that.

Okay, great.

I think that's where we're at.

Is that sounds like the comp the owner and contractor are interested in that?

We can get I'll I'll take what I can get.

Anybody else on the board have thoughts on that?

I'm curious if the burden of proof of the need to replace the windows applies on a secondary facade.

No, no, if we're determining the roadside of purview because they're secondary facade.

Yeah.

Anything else?

Appreciate your thoughts.

I will state it.

No, this is uh one second.

Yeah.

All right.

Um, I move to approve with conditions.

But the application presented on 7-7 2025 for window replacement at 1420 Linden Street with the following conditions agreed to by the applicant that windows one to 11, 12, 13, 16, and 17.

Correct.

Yep.

The five windows facing Linden Street be excluded from the application and the remaining 15 windows be approved as presented.

Um for reasons that they are outside the harb's purview being on secondary facades.

I find compliance with the following sections.

Uh with the following sections regardless for distortion chapters three section 4.5 windows and find that there are not circumstances you need to the property.

Circumstances you need the application.

Um that concludes my motion.

Second from Philip.

Uh all those in favor of approving the 15 non-primary windows.

I mean foods.

One from Dave.

Alex, I didn't hear you.

Oh, uh, so we have one deny.

All right, that moves forward.

So you touch the window street until you send another application.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

But I don't quite want to.

Thank you very much for your help.

Yeah, right.

Yeah, I don't know.

Okay, whatever this is.

Just uh for clarification.

We didn't hold this thing.

That's enough.

You offer approval or the exhaust on that that was the conversation we just had.

So if it needs to be talked back to staff to approve administratively before council, we're fine with that.

Who reaches out to us in the letters now?

Okay.

All right, thank you.

All right, thank you very much.

Thank you.

We're not they're not touching the front facide.

Oh yeah, it's been removed from that.

I don't think another one.

I don't think those series, those 400 series are gonna be approved though.

It clearly doesn't highlight that if it's if you want any cladding, it's gotta be aluminum cloud over the woods.

So we able to help you with that.

Yeah, okay.

It it does say the 400 series um works because there is no aluminum cladding windows.

I don't need to discuss that'll have to be the conversation.

Yeah, thank you.

Thank you.

Moving on to 428, 436, and we're six streets.

Do we have a representative reporting?

There are maybe maybe they don't carry that.

It's like you'd look at Home Depot's gonna yeah, 90 98% of business.

Yeah.

98% of business is all right.

Do you mind stating your uh name?

Sure.

Um, Samantha Ciati Falcon, the owner of SCF architecture.

I gave it on we uh I own a small architecture firm in a maest, and we are working with the Allentown Housing Authority on this design for an eight unit two bedroom set of uh apartments on 428 to 436 North Sixth Street.

Um we've gone through several iterations.

We sign up before we move forward.

We need to hear from staff.

Oh, sure.

No, no, I'm sorry.

Sorry.

Uh we go with the staff reading here.

Okay.

Uh 428 to 436 North Sixth Street is in the old Veragon's historic district.

The parcels and is is an existing lot.

The previous 11 unit three story twin house, which was a circa 1890 Victorian porch house, was previously demolished.

The proposed project is to construct a new two-story, eight unit apartment building.

Staff observation and comments.

New buildings are evaluated for compatibility within the historic district according to eight design factors.

Height, massing, size, and scale, setback proportion, materials, detailing, and penetration.

The proposed design draws inspiration from historic elements and styles without creating a false history and is of an appropriate height and massing relative to the surrounding context.

The proportions and facade rhythms are also consistent with neighboring buildings.

The submitted rendering indicates that the existing, perhaps original stone wall at the 6th Street sidewalk will remain, which would be appropriate.

The materiality of the exterior is in keeping with the guidelines and the facade composition follows the use from other historic structures.

Staff recommend approval.

All right.

Thank you to staff for that reading.

And yeah, sorry.

I don't like the just get going, you know.

Sorry about that.

Um, we we just wanted to mention a few things.

We appreciate the review of the historic board.

Um, you know, we did try to make sure we were aligning with the floor levels, knowing that most of the units on the street are three story walk-ups, you know, town home porch houses, as you mentioned.

We're only doing two stories here.

And I know you had seen previous designs that were kind of created by a drafting company that did some plans and there was a lot of extra stuff in the elevations that was not necessarily appropriate to any historic house, like multiple bays in one unit side by side made of brick, um, things that you wouldn't really see anywhere in the downtown.

So what we tried to do is follow the rhythm of the neighborhood and the rows of vertical windows.

We chose a taller, skinnier window so that it would be more appropriate and match the historic look of the houses on that street and still met the egress requirements for bedrooms and all kinds of things and tried to keep a consistent rhythm throughout the building.

We are altering the roof lines just slightly so that it does appear that there are multiple units vertically, even though the units are stacked to on top of each other in the front and the back of the building.

Um we also chose to maintain the porches on the front, even though they're a little different than the other houses along the street.

But we thought it was important for those porches to face 6th Street and to the rear, so that because as we know the porches are where all the fun stuff happens on 6th Street and where people hang out, and that's where people connect with their neighbors and things like that.

Um the housing authority thought that was important to maintain the porches in one way or another.

We're still debating whether the porches are gonna be completely enclosed to keep people out or keep people in.

Um we debated about doing them out of brick, like some of the walls are brick and some of the houses.

But from a from an affordability standpoint, we went with the open rails to keep the porches a little cleaner and less stuff accumulating on them over time.

Um, we wanted to make sure we were looking at the bay windows throughout the neighborhood so that they were consistent with other bay windows in the in the neighborhood.

We're not obviously going to be able to do copper, but we're looking to use a material that was durable and creates that kind of same historic panel look of the bay windows in other homes.

Um we are looking at materiality still, we're still working on budgets and things like that, but the intent is to keep the facade along six North Sixth Street all masonry, and we're looking to use a real brick, like a real cavity wall brick construction with real brick and soldier courses and road locks up above the windows and to create those kind of details in the facade.

Um we're looking at using a brick that's red because most of the bricks on that side of the street are red as opposed to using the painted bricks and the and the buff bricks and the brick coat that's on the opposite side of the street.

So we're looking to use a red brick with like a 20-colored accident brick.

We have some samples, these are not exactly the plans, but this is kind of our intention using like a red brick with like kind of a brownish color to bring a little bit of a modern color into the palette, and then using that to bring other colors into this design.

Um the rendering you're looking at has kind of a like a tan colored dormer and porch roof and railings.

And we're debating about doing that or doing a white.

We're kind of looking for the hard to kind of give us some feedback on your thoughts on that.

The house, as you can see, right to the left of this building has all white trim and white porch rails and things like that.

The one on the opposite side also has all white.

We're happy to go white if you think we need to.

We're actually looking at doing a darker colored window, but we're using a pella, like Pellow's wood windows are metal clad.

Um, so we know that that's something that would be acceptable to the board.

It has a wood interior that we can stain or paint or do whatever we want with.

The exterior is metal pad and they have different profiles that meet some of the historic requirements.

Um, I would say Marvin's another one.

They're more expensive, but Pell is a good good upper window or fixed window.

You can get a picture window through them too.

Um it's pretty standard.

It's not something special where you can you have special order the size, but they can do pretty much anything.

Um, we're planning to use and we're looking for advice on this, but we know um, like where the post are at the corners.

We're planning on making this whole structure out of wood.

So it's a wood-framed building.

We're sprinkling it because it has to be because of the number of units we have in there.

Um, the porches will be wood.

We're gonna clad the porches with a durable composite material, which is a wood plastic kind of composite, which will be more durable than a deck board.

Um, we brought samples of all kinds of things to show.

Um, and the issue with this house compared to the other ones you looked at today, is this building is more than 22 feet from the neighboring property.

So the side sides of the building will be visible.

So we know we have to comply all the way around this building.

The intent is to create a brick facade at the front, have in theory a brick, a brick wingscoat that wraps the whole height of the first floor down the sides of the building, and then the back of the building will either wrap that same wingscoat up along the first floor, or if budget becomes an issue, we'll drop that wainscoat of brick down underneath the windowsills on the first floor.

We we haven't gotten budget set.

It's a public bid project.

We don't know what exactly we're gonna get.

So if we run into bud budget issues, we're gonna have some alternates that we can kind of pull different levers and see what we can do.

Our intent though is to use the brick.

We're planning on using either a hardy board siding material, which is a cementitious siding board.

Um, there's different profiles and things like that.

We're planning on using something with a wood texture, just kind of have a you want the smooth one.

That's what we require.

Yeah.

You want the smooth one?

We can do either one, so that's good to know.

So thank you.

Um, you know, we're looking at a darker color like this as opposed to a light color.

I know you've seen two renderings of this, and we kind of didn't love the middle one.

So we gave you this one so you can see the context and see that we're looking for something a little bit on the darker side, like it like a taupe or brown, not a black, because that's not great from an energy standpoint.

Um, the cementish setting is very durable, it will hold up.

We can afford it, that's what we'd love to do.

We brought an alternate just to show it if you run into it, like you have some other setting on it.

Everything for the decking materials, we're looking at doing something in a composite so that the deck boards don't have to constantly be replaced by the housing authority.

Um, it has the woodload, it's got a stain, it's going to be compatible with the different materials that are in here, whether or not that's allowed or not.

We have a question about that.

We'll get to the rest of that.

No, no, I know.

I'll get it all out and then you can be the back.

Um, the railings we're planning on doing an aluminum railing that's got a historic profile to it.

So a vertical picket with a handrail that's got a profile to it, so it's not just a very modern handrail.

Um, but the aluminum will be more compatible for the housing authority's safety requirements.

It'll be a 42-inch high rail for safety, and it'll have vertical pickets, a base um trim and a top trim.

We're not looking to do something crazy like a cable rail or something very modern like that.

So that's the porch areas.

Um, the bays and the columns.

Uh this is where we get crazy here.

We're looking at using a composite um, sorry, not a composite, a cellular PVC trim board.

It's like AZEC or Versatex, if you've heard of that.

Um, it's a cellular PVC material.

They make column wraps that wrap around the pressure-treated wood and keep the wood from rotting and can be painted.

They they don't rot, they keep woodpeckers and insects out.

They're great from a durability sample.

I'll pass it around if you have never seen or touched this material.

It can be carved out like wood and routed like wood.

It also can comes in a panel form, which we would use at the dormers to create the flat panels under the dormers and around the dormers, and we use the trim to kind of create this kind of wood-looking profile that doesn't rot out like wood.

And I don't know how Dave feels about that, but I'm sure that's on me.

Um what else?

We're also using some corbals.

There's it's not showing up there, but um on the elevations, there's some corbels helping to hold up the roofs around the base to get some architectural detail at the roof line because a lot of the homes there have these beautiful corbels underneath the roof lines.

Um, but we didn't want to put too many in and have it look like it was artificially decorated.

Like the previous rendering you saw had a lot of gingerbread, is what I call it, like all the like the wood-filly stuff in the thing.

And that's not something that people do as much these days.

Like it's a Victorian era thing.

We're not in the Victorian era anymore.

We want this to look like a picture of what today's building materials are.

And that's kind of the direction we're taking.

You know, the corbels we're showing, you see them here under each of these roof cables, just to kind of give a little bit of architectural detail.

We're using a soldier course up along the underside of the roof line to kind of create a detail.

It'll be in the darker gray material, so it'll stand out from the red brick.

So we're trying to use the materials to be the detail instead of just adding a whole bunch of extra lipstick on the building.

I don't know how to explain it.

I could pass it around if you want to just see that.

Now, cementitious siding is also relatively expensive, like compared to like I'm gonna say the evil word of vinyl siding.

We're not planning on using vinyl siding, but vinyl siding is about like a like a third of the cost of this material.

So like $1.50 a square foot.

This is five dollars a square foot.

We have this vinyl, um, is another vinyl option if we have to from budget perspective at the rear of the building where it's not accessible.

You can't see it from the alleys.

Um, but this is a material that's about $3.50 a square foot compared to the $5 of this or $1.50 a vinyl.

It's also insulated.

It's got a little bit of insulation on it to help create a little bit more of an R-value.

It doesn't give you a ton, but it's something that creates a little bit of a continuous insulation on the exterior of the building.

And again, this is only going to come out if we have a budget crunch and we have to do something.

But we want to know if this is acceptable.

It comes in different profiles.

I have a brochure if anybody would like to see that.

I'm not a salesperson, but it's not getting no kickbacks.

It's just something we've been considering because it has a like a flatter profile.

Like vinyl siding tends to cut and gets very brittle in the winter, and when it's got nothing behind it, anything kicks up from the road, they'll crack it.

This is a little bit more durable, it's a little more expensive, and it's just an alternate alternative in case we can't afford the cementitious siding everywhere.

Um let me see if there's anything else I missed.

The main entrance faces 6th Street, but there's also a rear entrance at the back of the property that faces a parking lot that holds 12 cars.

Um, so there's an entrance on the front and the back.

The majority of the people that live here will enter from the back through the center corridor up a stair to the second floor or to the first floor, and all the apartments are accessed from inside the building in the center core of the building.

Um, they're all two bedroom units.

We utilize the base to put the kitchen table in, because that's what should be there from my perspective.

Um, so we have these next bays, they make sense.

The previous design had multiple bays.

There was a bay like there in the living room and also in the bedroom next door, and there was a lot of extra like detail that didn't make sense, and the windows didn't, they weren't consistent with the neighborhood rhythm.

Um we would love to avoid plastics, but we also don't want to use products that won't last.

Like we don't want the housing authority to have to pay for constant maintenance on the buildings over and over again.

It's why we have um a gabled roof on the building instead of a mansard roof.

Everybody's been telling us to turn change to a mansard roof or the rubber rubber look like a rubber flat roof.

This is a very deep building compared to a lot of the other buildings in this neighborhood.

Um, and the gable roof just tended to be the least expensive way to do a roof on a project of this depth, get enough slopes so that there's not um water and snow pooling up on top of roofs that the housing authority is going to need to maintain.

Um, all the utilities will be in the basement of this building, and we're gonna use a truss, a very simple truss roof to form the roof construction.

No access to the attic except for sprinklers and smoke detectors.

The the tenants won't be able to get up there.

It's why we didn't put windows back in these little uh dormers on the roof because there's no sense in putting a window into an attic that nobody's in to let energy out and nobody be able to see out of.

Um, but we want to keep the gables to keep that rhythm of what's going on in the neighboring houses, get it to work so that at least fit into the neighborhood.

We're still playing around with the detail in those those gables.

We want it to be something interesting and nice, but not just that's what I want to clarify because it'll look like we're not figuring out.

I mean, I'm gonna show you the dark, it's it's some version of a siding material.

And I hear you don't like shakes, we won't do shakes.

We'll do something that's either um again, like a cellular PVC that's got a pattern into it or something.

Um, we're trying to come up with something that's a little bit more interesting than just siding.

Sorry, I'll show right.

Oh, this is this is great.

All right, let me start off by saying um I do remember the last application, and I am excited about this.

Oh, good, I'm glad I this is definitely a huge improvement over what we saw a year ago.

So thank you for your hard work.

From my perspective, um, form scale and massing are very important in a neighborhood, and I believe we've met that goal and keeping in line with that verticality and being the rhythm of the street.

So I really appreciate that.

Um, this is an area where we might differ on the board in um additions or uh new structures in historic districts.

Um the guidelines do allow a little more leeway.

Uh they don't require faux historicism.

Um, and that's that's an area where there's more wiggle room for debate of materials and and what goes on there.

I personally believe that a historic context is is enlightened with modernity.

So taking a contemporary style, putting it next to a historic structure, I think is even more propound in some ways than trying to mimic the historic uh materiality and and and colors and context.

So that's my perspective.

The board might disagree and interpret the guidelines differently.

So on some of the questions you addressed up front.

I don't think you need to match the the houses next door on color.

Um I don't like shake, but the shake guidelines don't necessarily apply, in my opinion, to the structure.

Um so just some general thoughts before we hear from the rest of the board.

I do have a question though.

It sounds like this is not the final proposal.

So we're we're approving with a whole bunch of material options.

Exterior is fine.

Okay, the window locations are final.

Everything where it's at is final.

We we pick this brick if this brick works out, which I like because it's kind of got a little bit of a gnarly texture to it.

And it's not like a super clean modern like baked brick.

It's like a kind of a clinker brick, which is like what the neighbors have next door.

It's something that we can get still.

Um, and I like that it had a color in integrated into it.

Um we have a shingle roof proposed, which I didn't mention because I was afraid to for the last conversations we've had.

Um, we looked at different things like metal roofing, like like all different kinds of roofing materials.

Honestly, like the shingle roof will do really well in this gabled configuration, and it's an easily maintainable uh product for the housing authority.

Um, and I'm not sure what else I would recommend doing there, except a metal roof, except a metal roof has its own issues with hail and noise, and it's expensive.

So we're we're happy to talk with like we brought timber line GAF shingles, and I think someone else recommended here that we'll find a number one, another one that's not quite so angular.

We'll find something that's more of a straight shingle.

Um so as we go down the board, because I want to hear everyone's opinion.

We have a uh an application here that's to aff recommends approval.

Um, there is a list of materials on page three of this application, and there's a lot of options there.

So I think if we're going to add conditions, which we don't have to, we could approve as presented.

It's important that I hear from each of you of which which of those materials you think should be added or stricken from that recommendation of boot for approval.

That's what I'm gonna start with.

So I want to hear from the rest of the board now.

Oh, that one's stuff at the top.

Uh I agree with with Dave's thought if I understood it correctly about the the flat finish on the Hardy board.

Am I understanding?

Yeah, that's what we approve.

It's just certainly more like like a like a clapward siding from like a colonial home.

Would we have a flat?

Yeah, the profile itself isn't like the issue.

It's the the texture of the surface.

Okay.

So that would be the only modification I would make to the material with all the other 1520 odd materials.

Uh, I think are just fine.

Great.

Any other thoughts for the folding?

Yeah, on the on the railing.

Do you do you have uh an example of the style configuration?

She's got a collapsible railing in there right there.

This is similar to it.

You can see it's kind of thanks.

Again, like a text, like a like a like a hand grabbable top, just vertical pickets and a button.

They do have some that look like cast iron, like like if you want like a wrought iron look, we can get that kind of look too.

Yeah, which is the turn but the ball should we always require the talk.

Yeah, yeah, but they have to be fixed, and that's a commercial grade railing that meets the stage constraints and has the four-inch pickets, so that we don't have any babies falling through or anything like that.

I don't think she knows and yeah, I think it's probably everything you're saying, it's true for existing structures, but doesn't necessarily have to be true for infill structures, but fine with including that in conditions.

Yep.

I still think there's slate line.

Yeah.

I have a question that has nothing to do with the harb.

I'm just as a building inspector.

I'm curious if if cost was a concern for the project, why are we doing a basement rather than like carving out a like a utility room?

Sure.

So swab on grade.

This has to do with the geotechnical engineering that was done on the site.

Oh, they already have to fix some things.

There was a funeral parlor on the property before in the Victorian home that was there and it had a basement.

Okay.

So they took everything off the property and threw all the garbage in the hole.

Of course.

So when they did geotechnical engineering, there was a lot of unsuitable soils.

So they're getting it out anyway.

The cost of the what is like 16 truckloads that were past how many truckloads of soil replacing it, the cost was kind of like, well, we could either take it all out and replace it and do a slab on grade or put a basement in, which is where all the utilities are planning to go in this point in time.

Because it's just as expensive to put a basement in as it is to take out all that soil and why waste that?

We're down the hole anyway.

So let's put a basement in.

So thank you for answering that because you're so energetic that I'm caffeine and I'm yeah.

And I was just gonna stay awake all night thinking about that.

Answered my question, I can sweep peacefully.

That's good.

And can you show that I get really excited about boring things?

Yeah.

1 a.m.

Rob is not that exciting.

So I do do a question on the the dormers and the side of the roofs.

Um you have the boards for you or vertically and horizontally in different pictures.

Right.

Are they both under consideration?

Are we appropriate?

They're both under consideration.

Like the original design had the whole facade like flat and then a giant gable on one side.

We ended up squeezing some square footage out of the project for cost reasons and other things, and we pulled the porches in so that there's a second gable along the end where the two porches and the end of the building are.

So now there's a double gable at the end.

We even went so far as on the elevations that you have to create a little tiny little gable over where the porches are sticking out, so that we even made that giant big triangle of a gable look a little bit smaller and gave it a little bit more detail.

We aren't thinking about what direction to run the siding vertically or horizontally.

Um we haven't come to 100% conclusion of that.

And if you guys have an opinion one way or the other, we're happy to do it.

It was looking better kind of more horizontally, at least on the main parts of the building down at the first and second floor where we have siding.

Um, but to do something vertically, either just in the big gables or even in the little two triangles and even in the triangles at the front to do something different.

I'm agnostic on that, but I just want to be clear of what we're approving, whether we are approving a specific configuration because it's presented both ways in the application.

So just I don't know if anybody else on the board has thoughts on that.

Fine either way.

Comfortable approving both conditions.

I think it does remind me of um uh another building inspector showed me a picture of a job he went out to where a homeowner decided to redo his roof himself, and instead of running the shingles up the roof, he ran the shingles across the roof.

Oh my gosh.

I could not understand why it was leaking terrible.

We're glad that you haven't proposed running the shingles across the roof.

And we're not proposing anything like a board and batten or anything that wouldn't be historically like used in this neighborhood.

Like we're just planning either like a hard disability and/or vertical narrow siding or something like that.

So the fill and it just needs to be compatible with the surrounding properties.

It's complementary to know this is more of a general comment, but um it's unfortunate.

We're glad you actually have a creational standard now.

Uh you can grade it out.

Like the stuff you see that's infill, they don't even really look at that too much.

Yeah.

Yeah, and the eaves help ventilate the roof, so we kind of need them.

So that's kind of important.

To the question of roofing shingles.

Uh uh heard the conversation, yes, because it's in fill.

We can allow a like much broader spectrum for this.

We're proposing GF timber line.

I don't like shake, but I don't care on this structure.

I just wonder if it has an impact on the surrounding whether that should be with the rehab look nice.

It sounds like the the applicant, it would be comfortable.

Yeah, willing to do three tab or slate line, and then it's not making it.

I think the slate lines look really nice.

Yeah, I don't think there's a single property actually shake and uh part.

No, I agree.

I think General Harry Tricks would be happy to see this.

You know, he was involved in the the old um only other question I had is the window above the front entrance.

I'm wondering if you're horizontally configured, are there like mountains planned or so that window is like at the second story of the stair tower that goes up to the second floor?

There's no way to get to it.

Um we continue the the the double hung pattern, and we wanted to create something different at the entrance entryway.

Um so we could we gain them together as opposed to splitting them apart.

So you're playing that this rendering is where you're going because there's another elevation.

Yes, that's just a big blank.

That's not across that is not what we're going to do.

We want the consistent kind of look across the the facade.

Yeah, that looks terrible.

Yeah, I'm gonna add that as a condition that you're not like double hung to that stuff.

Yeah, yeah.

That's fine.

At the at the rear of the building, I know you don't care about the rear of the building as much as you care about the front and the sides.

Um at the rear of the building, there's no window in that location.

It's a it's just a it's not gonna be a sign or anything like that.

We're just gonna put some kind of decorative thing there because it needs something, but it's not a window because there's nothing on that floor level right there.

It'll probably end up being a storage area for the for the residents and or part of the utility space.

And that faces the parking lot.

So that illustrates the the half brick up to the first floor level and then siding above it.

Again, if if budget becomes an issue, we're gonna drop that that brick line down to below the windows, but there will be brick all the way around the base at least of this building for durability and just for looks.

Nice job on the design.

No, thank you.

Yeah, appreciate that.

I think it was probably some other projects where we want it to be seamlessly complementary, not pretending to be something old, but yeah.

So I think it's really much well.

Yeah.

We were looking at pressants like Nate and I looked, Nate's my intern at my office.

Um he he showed me a bunch of like very modern looking things, and it just didn't fit into the context of the neighborhood.

So especially in a historic district.

So there are places where that works, but this was not the place where that would be.

But this also has its own character, it's in a different decade for some country.

So thank you.

Um I have heard three conditions so far.

Uh, one that um the smooth hardy board be used if party board is chosen.

Uh one that uh shingles will not be a shake configuration, and one that all windows will be a double configuration perfectly oriented.

Anything else?

What's underneath the porches?

Is there anything underside?

Um we haven't discussed that 100% yet.

I mean, they're gonna be pressure-treated wood structures.

Um we know, like I always hate when you see the the wood from underneath, like whether we do a like a I don't know, it's not that I don't say that's but it could be a monasophic or some kind of soft material.

Um, we could also do like a a rain collection system so that you can be underneath and get wet.

There's a couple of different things that we haven't specified exactly what's going on with that.

The the deck boards that we're specifying have a space between them and rain can get through them, and we can either paint or stain the wood in a that's why I was concerned about what was going on.

Whether or not it's gonna need sprinklers or not underneath there.

The building's gonna be sprinklered, but because there's decks and they're undercover roof, there might need to be sprinklers and maybe on the building inspection end of things.

I think they're gonna need to be sprinklered.

So we don't want to keep them exposed 100% either.

Yeah, so um, you know, a lot of times with those, it's like you know, either a charged white dry system for the uh for the balcony.

So we're looking at that from the building code.

I think we have to get a building print, obviously, for this building, and we will be all simulated.

So is there gonna be any lighting on the outside of spilling?

There will be some lighting at the entryways just to kind of, but it'll be like downward lights either built into the the soppid.

We're working on the engineering end of things now.

Um, but we're not planning on lighting up the neighborhood or anything like that.

There are, I think there's street lights along six street on one side.

Yeah, so though there will be safety lighting from the entry door perspective and whatever the housing authority is gonna require us to do, but that's kind of it for now.

On the on the porch flooring, is there gonna be a trim board going around it?

Because I was just concerned about the spacing between the boards because normally we have tongue and roof and and they're all tight, but we don't want it to look like a deck.

No, it it will have a skirt board around the deck to cover the ends of the boards.

You want to that's what yeah, that's what that tends to be the detail I use because when you cut those composite boards, it don't look so great.

Right on different profiles.

Okay, good.

So yeah, we put a skirt board on them.

I mean, uh you know, porch board's an option, but yeah, it gets slippery and it's not always yeah, it'll be fine because it's extended out on the right on the outside of the building.

So it's closed up.

And I see that in the application on the second floor.

I don't see that on the first floor.

So you are the first floor slabs on great, they're patios.

Yeah, it's concrete slabs on great.

Um, so the condition of the railing maybe not concrete.

Is it is there a rail across the bottom?

Well, it it will have a railing, it'll have like it'll be attached to the post into the building.

There'll be a bottom rail and a top rail, and there'll be concrete pad underneath it.

Um the the property is pretty much flat.

We're we are maintaining the stone wall along sixth street.

I forgot to mention that.

It's kind of historic.

Um, but we're maintaining that wall as much as we possibly can.

It's in good condition.

There's a couple places it needs to be just basically some some stones have fallen out.

We'll put them back in and order them in place to look like the rest of the wall in some historic way.

Um there's a driveway along the one side of the property that's 20 feet wide.

There's barely enough room for a sidewalk to go through.

Um, there are handicapped accessible parking spaces at the rear of the building, one one spot um and 11 spaces in total.

Um, so someone who is uh has a disability can park on the property and enter the rear of the building at grade and not have to go up steps or anything.

The rear entrance will be at grade.

The front entrance we assume is gonna be close to grade.

That group we're working out the graining with the civil engineer right now, but it's close to grade at the front too, but the wall keeps you from getting there from sixth street, unless you use the driveway.

Um but we're we haven't proposed to do a ramp.

One of the previous designs had a handicapped accessible ramp as part of it.

Um we are providing handicapped accessible parking at the rear of the building and allowing people to come in that way.

Um, and that's what's required by the building code.

Um we had asked like Brandon and the city board to just let us know whether we have to provide handicap accessible access from sixth street or not.

Um so I know we've done a few buildings like on 77th Street and that are bodegas and things like that.

And that's different, it's a store.

Yeah, exactly.

So we we haven't provided a ramp yet.

And like I said, we have accessibility around.

You can get around all the way to the front from the back accessibly.

It's just there's no way to get up from the street level up to that level.

So I noticed the giant bike locker on the first floor, which is awesome.

So the assumption that got also come from a hard parkslash church behind, right?

You would be taking so I just want to make sure that there wasn't like a run I'll put up the sidewalk of the store.

Nope.

Well, great.

Great.

Beautiful.

I don't I don't think we need to add the condition there.

Um this reminds me of four and the block of North Street.

You do you girl?

Okay.

So I do have a question.

Is this like completely out or not?

We have a if we have an issue.

For the rear.

Well, for the rear or the sides.

I don't have an issue on the rear or the sides.

Is that is that included in your list of the terms?

It is that that's the picture right there.

Yeah, no.

It's as an alternate.

Like again, in my dream world, everything would be cementitious signing because it's amazing.

Um, but again, it doesn't fit everywhere.

And we have found projects where it doesn't work at all, like flat panel.

People have installed it so poorly.

Like it has to be installed right and done right.

Cool.

I also definitely more cost effective.

So like if budget becomes an issue, that's the only reason we would suggest that.

I don't believe we can write a condition on on color, but there was a a question on recommendation for the color of the dormers.

Bay windows integral materials we can.

I don't know if we need to argue whether this is an integral material on these bay windows.

Is there I don't I don't feel strongly that they should should, I don't think they should match the white on the adjacent houses, but I I prefer a completely different color in my opinion.

But I'm curious about the rest of the board.

Yeah, because there's white ones, there's copper colored ones at like all the houses across the street are tan, like like we like there was so many like all the color, like there's a bright blue house in the alley, like there's a million colors around, but we we we wanted to blend in, but we were worried that the white was too stark and it looked too like beachy.

Uh and I don't know how to explain it.

So we were kind of looking at maybe an off-white or something like that to tone it down a bit and to go with like the brown colors that we're looking to do, possibly the windows in and the trim work and things like that.

So yeah, I was fine with that thought process because um, you know, it's a new building.

So it it's okay to differ from the neighboring older buildings, you know.

Yeah.

As long as the housing authority has the ability to patch it, match it.

Good.

Yeah.

All right, we are way over on time on this application.

Any other last minute thoughts?

But this was the best one, don't you agree?

Which we still have two to go.

That's we do here.

It's uh darn it.

I was scared.

Somebody's they're having all this conversation about oh window.

I'm like, oh my god, we have a whole building to talk about.

So I'll do it, I'll do it.

You good?

All right.

Um move to approve the application present on 7725 for new construction at 428 north sixth street, uh, with the following conditions.

One that um we have the uh vertical windows on the front facade, the second being that we use the smooth finish on the hardy board material on the visible facades.

And I lost the third condition.

No shake on the shingles.

And I find uh combined fit file injections of the guidelines for historic districts, uh chapter five and five point one for new buildings and uh find that their circumstances unique to the property conclude your motion.

Includes my motion.

Thanks, Rob.

We have a second second second winner.

Wow, coming fast.

All those in favor of approving the conditions.

Any opposed?

Great.

Thank you so much.

Really excited.

We are too.

All right.

Moving back to 1515 Linden Street.

We heard Ruth.

Yes, I can hear you.

Apologize for any noise in the background.

My son is still up.

Yeah.

Oh no, we can hear you.

All right.

Um you mind just stating your name for the record quickly again.

Um I'm Brian Hafner Bear.

I am the City of Allentown Parks project coordinator.

Thank you.

We'll begin with the staff reading.

1515 Linden Street is located in the West Park Historic District.

The structure is the West Park Band Shell.

It's a two-story detached structure.

Um, the semi-spherical roof over the stage, the classic cornice, deco front with plasters, uh, pile glassers and arch pieces and wheel, wood starting on the remaining facades and five doors of various styles.

The structure dates from the late 19th, early 20th century and is a classical in style.

The proposal is to replace all single doors on the band shell with solid wood doors and the styles depicted on the front elevation of the rendering for the front and sides of the band shell.

The West Park Ban Shell is an important historic landmark in the West Park Historic District and in Allentown as a whole.

Following the 2024 denial of the previously proposed seal doors, the city of Allentown has submitted a proposal for door replacement in which solid wood doors that follow the panel configuration of the original front band shell doors will be used to replace all five exterior doors.

This replacement is proposed due to ongoing security and vandal vandalism issues at the band shell.

The two front doors of the band shell are original, and the single glass panes on either have on each have either been replaced with wood and or covered.

At least two of the three side doors have been previously replaced.

While the proposed door is a more appropriate replacement for the non-original doors than the previously, the previous proposal, original building drawings indicate that the original configuration of this door uh includes a six-pane light.

A replacement door with light as originally configured would be in keeping with the guidelines, given that the original configuration of the door is known.

However, if the HARP finds that there are circumstances unique to the property that would warrant solid doors without lights, this proposed configuration would be appropriate.

Repair and restoration is the most appropriate treatment for original doors, including extensive repair and/or reconstruction from previous damage.

Per the guidelines, a comprehensive repair of the original front doors of the band shell would be appropriate, would be more appropriate than replacement.

Comments from the Department of Parks and Recreation and the West Park Civic Association were included in the application review materials.

It is understood that there is an effort underway to conduct a full-scale restoration of the band shell.

It would be helpful to understand the goals of that project and its timeline and how that may align with the current security concerns of the park parks department is facing.

If, for example, that project intends on conducting a restoration of the original doors, an intermediate temporary solution may be more appropriate.

The proposed solid doors are an improvement to the previous proposal.

Further discussion would be helpful in reviewing this application.

Staff recommend denying.

Sorry, sorry.

Multitasking here.

So I appreciate allowing us to come back to the board for this.

We are underway.

We just about had the doors ordered when we were told we had to stop because they weren't the right doors when they were already previously staff approved because we didn't have this information prior.

Um we're trying to compromise with everybody here.

Um we do have a lot of vandalism at this location.

Um it is a very high traffic area.

Um a lot of the Heist William Allen High School kids hang out here all day long.

Um these doors have been kicked in numerous times.

Um, and the reason we're proposing no glass is due to that fact.

Um, as you can see, these doors have been boarded up, been you know, secured different ways numerous times.

There's wood on some of these, and on some of the other ones, there's also metal signs that we've also had to put up because they just continuously break through these doors.

Um, unfortunately, the structural integrity of these doors um are what is warranting the replacement versus the like refurbishing of them.

We would love to be able to just you know have them taken off and refurbished.

Um, unfortunately, there's like huge cracks in them.

Some of them have, you know, they were splintered.

Um, you know, it's probably just as costly to um, you know, refurbish them versus replacing them.

Um we were originally proposed steel doors just because of the vandalism, since this is a high, you know, high value park.

Um, but we you know talked with HARV and staff and decided that you know the best option was to go with solid wood doors.

Um, so that's kind of the path that we're currently on.

Um we're ready to we have a we have a proposal to do the doors.

Um we were just waiting on some additional funding to uh pay for the doors.

Um we have secured that, so we're just waiting on the approval of this.

Um we're trying to make a compromise here to have the front window, the the all the side doors, single doors match just the front to keep consistency versus having the six-pane light in the doors.

And as you can tell, we've replaced years ago.

I've been here 10 years.

I couldn't tell you if we've replaced these doors, but as you can see, all the doors don't really match other than the front two currently um because they were replaced from damaged vandalism before.

Um so that's kind of where we're at.

Um, we're trying to, you know, work with you guys and see what your recommendations are and see how we can come to a compromise to keep this project moving.

Um, we did just have all the windows replaced, which were approved by Harb.

So we're trying to make this stay historic and look good, but also you know, have a value again and not be this mismatched, you know, doors all over the place, different cut colors, different styles.

Um, so we're just trying to come here for recommendations on what we can do next and how we can move forward to keep this project moving and get this you know done and looking nice again.

Great, thank you.

Um I just want to uh clarify for the record that this is not a violation correction anyway in reference to comments that were made previously.

This is a new application specifically about the doors, not the windows that were discussed previously in those those move forward.

Um, so just in case there were questions up front for some about that.

So the gentleman that visited the board a couple months ago you're kind of referencing that discussion.

Correct.

Yes.

So this isn't in relation to that.

This is a new application specific about doors and has nothing to do with the windows.

That's it.

Didn't we didn't we do an approval for doors?

Uh so that we previously reviewed doors and denied them.

Right.

And one of the um the discussion topics that came out of that is whether we can ignore guidelines for safety and security reasons.

And the answer was no.

Uh, we do have to continue the guidelines.

This is also a very unique structure and important structure.

And so uh I unfortunately I think that makes this the standard a little higher, but it also does allow for discussion on suitable alternatives.

Um so I don't think there's a I I struggle with uh around where we rushed this.

I think it's important that we discuss things.

I mean, clearly it's it's interested.

Um I'm also going to open this up for additional comments from other members who are present.

Um, but love to hear some additional thoughts from the board before we go there.

Do we have statistics from the police about vandalism?

I'm not sure we can consider those, but uh let me the ask the ask is to change to make modifications to it's original because of vandalism.

So do we have supporting evidence for that besides the the answer I think we got a year ago was even if we had those statistics, we can't deviate from the guidelines.

Right.

So which also means that in the application, they can't site as the chat's replacement.

Correct.

Correct.

Yeah, okay.

Okay.

And am I missing, do we have any submission of what the what the proposed doors would be, the solid doors?

Is there a cut feed or anything that was submitted?

Maybe I just missed it.

Yeah, I was wondering that as well.

Door hardware or anything like that.

We do have like the original plants, right?

Yeah, right.

Yeah, and the original doesn't have the divided lights in the front, just on the sides.

Um, it does have the single light, but that believe these are the original doors.

That's my ton of things.

Um the sides are definitely not.

But yeah, do we have the proposed doors?

There was a description in the application that the new doors would be solidwood doors that match the configuration of the front doors that's seen on the right side of the screen.

Okay.

But we want it to match with the original plans.

I mean, this the intent, I think, is to have this registry on the national registry, right?

So it needs to be this either either one of two or one of one still existing structures in the US under this, you know, the the original architect.

So my my position there would be that anything put in would have to be exact replacement in kind of what the original plans were now with whatever's there.

Yeah, that would be what's there now.

Does that differ from the original?

I think I think this stuff has been I agree it looks bad because it's been kind of mismatched over the years.

Um I think things are just kind of going up.

I I don't think these match what the original plans are.

The front doors, you mean or the sled doors.

The sides are not the doors according to staff that we appear to be the original ones, but they have like boards covering the class, right?

But those are the original configurations on the front.

Definitely sub the side ones are absolutely incorrect.

Right.

So uh again, I don't think we can consider vandalism, but we can consider modifications in keeping with surrounding context as this is a unique structure.

I do think there is room to have custom doors on the front matching that pattern, but maybe being wood instead of glass on the front.

I'm not sure about the side.

I don't know whether there is some of them with those windows on the sides.

Um the fifth floor on the basement, that that the fifth door in the basement, that's I could argue be uh completely different context.

Um the justification can't be the vandalism, but there can be other justifications that I think could move something over to help the parks department keep this historic and secure.

Yeah, security can't be part of the reason.

Right.

And you also don't have a proposal there.

Well, like I don't have a door to review.

Yeah, that's what's killing.

I'm sorry, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on this.

Yeah, that's what uh what AJ said is we we don't really have a door that we're looking at, you know.

Um, so I I really don't know what we're approving.

If so, I guess another question would be for me is that the intent, this is a truly, I mean it's we all agree it's a very truly special and unique structure, right?

Which needs to be maintained.

So and if there's intent, I certainly wouldn't want to modify it in a way that would prevent it from being part of the national registry.

Agree.

Right.

So and I don't know if if modify if if modifying something in a way that is not exact to the original plans, if that prevents it from being submitted for national registry, I think that would automatically disqualify.

Well, I think uh it's a kind of taking a very different example, but there's many situations that modify a building.

Um, for example, accessibility, you know, you can have an older building, and you know, they need to provide an accessible ramp entry.

Well, we just masonic or even within the building, accessible toilet rooms or sprinkler systems or something, you know, which is modifying in an existing building for a legitimate reason.

And I certainly think that putting a solid door is a there's a legitimate reason for that.

I just like to see the door, whatever the heck we're doing here.

Yeah, we have a staff recommendation to deny.

I I think there's more reason to move forward than deny.

So I'm curious if if um the applicant is interested in in tabling just to present an actual door based on feedback and comments before we get there though, are there additional comments from the public?

It looks like so and I know I don't well I would I would ask the if the intent was to list this on the national register, which I don't know that the city supports that or not.

Um from an official standpoint, but I don't think modifying the door, like if you were moving the door opening somewhere, uh I could see that changing it.

But if you're not altering the door opening and you're putting an appropriate style door on it, I don't think that's gonna limit its ability to be listed on the national register.

Um you know, I think from an operations and maintenance standpoint, the solid door is a better option for the parks department um to maintain this structure.

So I I agree you guys should see the actual door that's being proposed there, but if it's a solid panel door, um that's appropriate to the West Park area.

I don't see why that would be an issue.

That's mine.

Thank you for those comments.

Thing then's I think I would add to the yeah, if we would agree, if if we do get the door that's different than what the original thing was, I would certainly want that process to be reversible in case it had to be, but I'd also want to make sure that West that there would be another meeting that we push this down the we'd open up for the comment from the other West Park specific association members.

Yeah.

But I definitely agree that whatever gets approved, none of the five doors should adjust the frames at all.

Right.

Is that is that understood and agreed to by the applicant?

Yes, yeah.

We're not looking to change the size of the doors.

The doors we understand they may be custom.

Um that we're not looking to change.

We're just simply trying to make work.

Um, we've heard that there was an intent from another group that's trying to register this on the national registry.

We have not stated yes or no as to our position on that.

So I do agree with Mark's point that we're not we don't have a definite yes or no if it's going to be on the registry, but we're not planning on changing or moving locations of the doors.

It is strictly to just make the building look uniform again, and to also, like you said, for maintenance and operation needs.

Um, you know, as the parks department, it's kind of hard because we don't really seem to follow in that residential area, and we're not really commercial, we're kind of that in between.

So we're trying to work both sides here for us and for the hardboard.

So we're willing to, you know, listen to any um, you know, options and opinions you guys have.

Reason why we're here.

So thank you.

And I would just say like the door, if they're not changing the opening size, that is totally a reversible alteration that like if that was the deciding factor on whether or not it gets listed.

I think would switch it out.

Like my other concern, like we had to we're providing some grant money to help them do the wood doors um instead of the steel doors.

Um I'd be worried that like if you start putting lights in it, that's going to become a more expensive custom door.

Um, and so there would probably be budget constraints on do we have evidence that they need to be replaced?

The front door destroyed by the teenagers, that's what they said seven.

So I don't see they look fine in the pictures.

It's from 2024, right?

Some of them aren't there anymore.

Yeah.

Well, yeah, but we don't know that.

I we're just taking your word for it.

See the hang on, I went to a concerning.

Yeah, uh, I can't make a decision like that without suiting conditions.

So yeah, and we need the bunch of smoke here.

Yeah, uh so I I do think we're moving toward a tabling.

So I want to make sure that we give the applicant um all of the information that they need to bring to the next meeting to discuss here in terms of replacing the doors, the security concerns can't be the concern, but there are a bunch of other, I would argue, legitimate reasons that uh the glass can be replaced with some sort of solid material as long as it doesn't alter the door frame, as long as it maintains the same um, I guess I don't know if you still call it like a like pattern on a solid door.

Um personally, I think I do not believe all five doors need to be the same.

They do not the two doors on the front need to be identical.

We need to see hardware, the two doors on the the second level halfway above ground floor, need to be the same on the sides, and we need to see that material.

The fifth floor submerged beneath the ground originally it had that light pattern.

I don't believe that's necessary.

I I could argue that that could be a completely different door based on context, based on a lot, but uh I just want to hear from the rest of the board.

Your interpretation of the guidelines as it relates to what I see as three different contexts for doors.

You're talking regrouping the the door at the bottom on the right.

Yes.

Which I believe the current application has a custom wood door for that location, and I'm sure that's uh I don't I I don't have strong opinion than what's needed down there.

I believe the current door is just a solid, what is it, a metal door down there?

What is that?

I'm pretty sure it's a solid steel door.

And you're proposing to replace that lower door with a custom wood door.

Um I'd have to double check that.

I don't remember exactly.

I do know it was the upper four doors, are definitely the solid wood.

I don't remember exactly.

The application said five doors.

So if it's not that all single doors.

I think it's all the single doors.

So I think it should be, yeah, I think it is a wood door.

Okay.

I just have a question of actually clarification of the guidance.

So I was reading it here with the section 3.6.8.

Or specifically state's the most appropriate material for residential doors, as we've already established.

This is not a residential property.

If that's the case, is there anywhere in the guidelines that say that we can change the pattern, the light, the design of it?

I mean, is that something that can be done because it's not a residential?

I'm asking my more experienced comrades here.

3.6.5 just says to repair and 6.8.

But 3.6.5 says to repair and restore historic doors were never possible.

What rather than replace and it doesn't specify the use of the building.

Okay.

Highlights just the fact that it's but we don't know what the doors were, correct?

Oh, I'm going to leave two here.

Yeah, we're the plan for submitted.

I saw those there.

Yeah, okay.

That's it.

That's of the original plan.

Okay.

Okay.

In regards to that fifth door, though, because it's an egress and water, we'll pull down their wood door, doesn't make much sense.

Okay.

I think there are conditions like unique conditions with the door.

Um so I would I would be comfortable allowing the current door to stay or some other door in that location.

But I'm curious what the rest of the board things.

We're not we're not ruling on this today.

We're providing context for the applicant to bring next time.

No, no additional thoughts.

Okay.

Just uh as far as the glass uh is it some kind of solution like the plexi or something that could be can we talk about so we put so the windows that was the concern, it was security, and we ruled we couldn't change the light pattern so Plexi was put on top of the historic windows for safety security.

I don't know if these front these front doors remain operable.

Are all five doors remaining operable?

Yes.

Yeah.

Um I don't think that's a solution.

Screw in some bolt now.

So any other thoughts?

Uh I think I'm hearing a table.

Yeah.

Does the applicant have all of the information, or do you have additional questions that that you need to bring by for the next meeting?

Um, I mean, I'm we'll get a report, so I think I should be fine for the most part, right?

We'll get a response to this, correct?

Or do you just get a table?

Uh I think we're looking to table the big missing piece here is what doors proposed, right?

So we can't really you know make a determination.

Um staff just recommends denying.

We could just deny, but I don't think that gets us anywhere closer to what we all want to see here.

Um so we're tabling to just ask for additional what doors proposed and or what three doors might be proposed for these different contexts, an additional justification of why uh why they should change, just with the understanding that the security concerns can't really be addressed, but there are probably other other reasons that uh you might replace glass for uh another material.

And do they actually need to be replaced the front?

Yes, but there's definitely gonna be questions on whether the doors need to be replaced.

Yeah, the first time it came through, there was pictures attached to the application.

The previous application, there was pictures attached showing the inside of the door.

So we can resend that over, but there is legitimate that's still either covered up with a police panel and whatever else is in the other one.

Like that sticker is just on a piece of literally a reversed metal sign from like the park or the street.

But yes, like we can send that.

That's not a problem.

For the record, but my dad works in security, and he would tell you a little sticker telling you you have a security system that's more valuable than an actual security system.

Um it sounds like we're moving toward tabling a month to get some answers for those.

We're looking forward to discussing this next month and hopefully moving something forward because we really love this structure.

Uh taken care of.

So thank you.

Any other thoughts or comments from anybody?

All right.

Um, so I'm just going to move to table this.

Uh I move to table the application presented on 77 2025 for one month for door replacement at 1515 Linden Street to uh allow the applicant to provide um specific uh specifications on proposed replacement door or doors and additional justification for um reasons for modifications from historic standards as well as uh any evidence for determination that the original existing doors on front facade cannot be replaced.

Um following sections of balance for its touric districts chapter three, section 3.6.

Um, and find that there are circumstances techniques for property and that it is not a residential property and is a prime structure in a historic district.

That concludes my motion.

Is there a second?

Oh that's the second front fill up.

I was a paper of tabling one month.

Any opposed?

Great.

Thank you so much for your patience.

We look forward to meeting this forward.

Thank you guys.

Have a great evening.

All right, on to HBDO review of 36th South Madison Street.

We have a representative for that.

Do we need a representative for that?

Um she's not we don't need one.

This is not a voting motion, it's a it's a demolition review, so we'll just begin with staff reading that.

Um this is uh 36 South Madison Street.

It's located in the historic building demolition control overlay district.

Um, this application had actually come through several months ago.

Um, and it was sent back for any additional comments.

Correct.

So um, apart from um two minor revisions and some of an staff comment, um, the review is generally the same, but I will read it.

So demolition is proposed for the original turret roof at 36 South Madison Street due to water infiltration and roof leaks.

The roof structure would be replaced with a flat roof.

The building is located in the historic building demolition overlay district first uh 660-52 HBDO Historic Building Demolition Overlay District D.6.

The City Historical Architectural Review Board shall be provided with an opportunity to provide comments to the zoning hearing board concerning the historical and architectural significance of the building proposed to be demolished, and on the effect of the proposed demolition on the historic character of the streetscape or surrounding neighborhood.

While the Harb's authority is limited to review and comment on the demolition and historical significance of the existing building, as part of its review, the application of the application, the HARP may also provide comment on the proposed new construction at the request of the zoning hearing board, planning commission, or applicant.

However, it should be noted that the HARP has no regulatory authority over new construction in any of the city's overlay districts, including the HBDO, the Hamilton Street Overlay District, or the traditional neighborhood development overlay district.

This application shall be reviewed for the following.

One, the historical and architectural significance of the existing building as stipulated in the zoning code, and two, the effect of the proposed demolition on the historic character of the streetscape as stipulated in the zoning code.

Architectural description.

36th South Madison Street is a three-story brick half double residential building with a central bay window with turret and a steeple roof.

The front facade of this Queen Anne's style structure features buff brick with expressive detailing, including corporal dentilation at the mansard roof, interlacing brick ends at the bay window and turret edges, and shallow soldier and row lock curved window lintels.

Original wood elements exist, including porch columns, cornice and trim elements, and the mansard and turret roofs feature slate shingles.

The slate roofs appear to be in disrepair with shingles broken, missing or out of alignment.

The mansard roof portion adjacent to 38 South Madison has been replaced with or covered by aluminum siding.

Historic context.

36 South Madison Street was built around 1900 and first appears on Allentown sandboard maps in 1911.

It is located in the middle of a residential block, which features similar architectural styles.

Staff evaluation and comments.

Historic and architectural significance.

36 South Madison Street remains retains much of its original integrity.

While there are a few examples of matching half-double homes on South Madison Street, many turret roofs have been removed.

36 and 38 South Madison is the only existing pair of houses retaining these roofs.

The retention of this turret has increased significance due to the removal of this feature in the surrounding area.

Effect of demolition on the historic character of the streetscape and surrounding neighborhood.

The turret and its roof are prominent character defining features on the primary facade, and the turret roof removal will have a negative impact on the historic character of the streetscape.

Its removal would also impact the height and overall proportion of the building.

Repair of the roof in its current structural form would be appropriate rather than the removal of the entire roof structure.

Demolition by neglect is not appropriate.

Severe deterioration can be considered a self-created condition and may not be an appropriate justification for demolition.

Evidence of exploring alternatives to removing the turret roof has has not been provided.

Repairing or replacing the roof material and framing in order to maintain the overall massing and form to retain the turret would be appropriate.

All right.

Thank you to staff for reminding us how little authority we have in this situation.

As a reminder to the board, we are not taking any voting action here.

And the only comments that are submitted to zoning hearing are those staff evaluation comments, not the historic context.

Exactly how I feel about it.

Yeah, yeah, 100%.

I agree.

Any additional comments?

I don't think we're allowed to be too graphic.

It's like it's just the turret that I mean, considering correct.

Because it it sounded like the whole building, it's just like if you're just for a little context, when this goes to the zoning hearing board, this is like testimony to the zoning hearing board.

So I would say, like, if you don't like this, be as graphic as you want.

Like the stronger you present your opposition, the more likely they may be to uphold it.

I appreciate that.

Um I do think staff address uh you know, demolish by neglect is not an appropriate reason.

Uh do we need to add any um they reference the surrounding flat roofs and turrets that have been removed, which I think is just a wrong reason to move forward with this.

And I wonder if we should add a statement to that effect.

But I think in overall, too, you're basically removing another layer off your roof.

So it's directly exposed.

So it's like, well, you had leaks before, you're probably gonna have more problems in the future over long term.

If you get rid of basically slanted roof like that, it seems like more of a roofing issue on top.

So to that could go into second effective unless you're a historic character removing uh a root layer um impact integrity of remaining historic elements of the building.

Uh going back to your point though, too.

If somebody does something wrong, that can't now become the context that matched everything else that matches.

It's like, hey, there's five violations in all the other properties, so now it's okay to treat that as this thing's functional.

Right.

The retention in the context of those being gone is increased significance due to removal.

But I would also add something effects of it's it's just not a justification.

This this chronological logic, yeah.

So those other ones could have been removed before the historic building demolition overlay district was put in place, which I don't think like I think that came in kind of late, like in the mid-2000s, maybe.

So uh to that point, a statement could be added of um that context.

This is that to the reason for the demolition of district and protecting this historic asset, right?

It's compounded given that context.

So it's just more anecdotal, but um, where I live in old paragraphs, the house next to it had the turret taken off, probably like 70s or 80s.

Um, and the housing authority, or at least the uh redevelopment authority actually reconstruct the turret.

Um personally, that's one of the reasons.

So I was kind of interested where I did, because I could see there was actually work being done to improve the roof.

Do you have any questions on what we added or I don't think so?

And it's not that there was like verbiage in the application that stated, oh, because everyone else had taken the turret roofs down, like that that it was just that there they wanted to remove that turret.

So I just was trying to make the case that you know, because everything else, like these pairs of houses, all of the turrets have been removed.

They didn't do that.

There's an image that oh did do that.

They wrote okay, and right that's right.

Coming back, you know.

Yeah, I thought I was the yeah, making the uh the case that this is the only pair.

Like these the this house and the adjacent house is the only pair that still have their turrets, which is why it's important to keep it because it's the last example of it.

Yeah, that's uh let's work on this.

Okay.

Right.

Anything else?

Right.

I don't think I have to make a motion to move on.

That concludes new business, finally.

Um there is no old business.

Uh uh moving on to violations.

Is there anything to discuss?

Right.

I would has anything transpired since um city councils upholding our decision on the file.

Nine forty-seven.

Oh no, nine for some time terms.

So yeah.

Yeah, they're still gonna they're still in the process of working with that.

Um that's true.

I was I was gonna say that.

So it's gonna ask for the church.

So I'm aware of that there's no property was transferred to that wasn't.

It was you get like training such one property.

Yes, right, okay.

It's almost like they said, hey, time out.

We're still on the record, we're discussing violations.

This is a violation discussion.

No, all right.

No other business.

Other business, yes.

Upcoming exciting things that are happening with the R and our notification system.

Yeah, so uh one of the things that was exciting, we uh applied back in uh May for a mini grant from the SHIPO office um to do uh translation services, and we eventually receive more today that we received the the grant um for translation services, um particularly for our um pretty much all the documents that we have.

Um are this is hopefully an effort to be able to reach a population, especially our uh Latino population.

There's no security now with a high Spanish speaking residents and being able to connect with those folks in any way possible.

Um we hope will help our historic districts by people being able to be better equipped with the knowledge um of what it means to look at the historic district.

Um so that will that process will begin soon, and they said it's a relatively quick turnaround time to be able to have the materials.

Um they don't do printing as a part of the grant, so we'll have to kind of do that internally and um you know fork over the time and effort that that takes, but at the very least we we were given the um ability to move forward with the the translation services from that grant.

So again, it'll just hopefully help um curb some of the uh the issues that we see with the lack of knowledge and some of that definitely is because everything that we have is in English.

Multiple languages or just right now to Spanish.

Um uh yeah it there's more opportunity down the line, you know, down the line, but I think one thing our staff is this mentioned.

I think um if there's any other language other than English.

That's right.

Spanish we need to do that.

Who knows?

Maybe maybe we'll get to that standard.

Like Arabic, which Lebanese.

Yeah, for Lanta, we don't know this Arabic is the third.

Arabic would obviously I think we're considering should be the third, and like I said, there's certainly opportunity for that, but right now I think uh we wanted to take a little step before we dig.

So the current guidelines are written in Spanish.

Are we retranslating those?

It's not that the guidelines, it's like um uh all the simple answers.

Yeah, it's that it's all the other materials, yeah.

All the guidelines tell what like notices that we send out to people and um all the information it'll be translated so that it's just an all-consuming.

Should be a big help.

Definitely that we we hope it has a big impact.

Piggyback off of that since I have everybody here in the board.

Um uh we have our summer camp in August.

And I'd like to know who's interested in joining and participating.

It's August 20th and 21st.

Um, I'll give you guys a rundown of what it contains on understanding and updating local preservation ordinances, tough cases and application of the secretary of the interior standards for rehabilitation, selecting your preservation priorities, what is essential and where it's gonna be more flexible, best practices for meeting procedures, certificates of appropriateness and staff approvals, conservation districts, easements, zoning and other tools for historic preservation and community outreach.

So I think that's something that we should all be interested in participating in.

This is the month, the national like virtual meeting.

Correct.

That takes all day, and we've got like yeah, correct Wednesday and Thursday to 20.

Five weeks away, so we can play around.

It's a long day, Red Bull, but tell me.

Okay, all right.

So AJ, I'm just gonna go down the line just so that I can see basically see all of you.

So we have AJ Dave, are you good?

Yeah, all right.

Philip.

Can you send me an email on this, please?

Yes.

Yeah, me too.

Just to confirm the date.

Yep.

I might be able to do 21st, but 20th, I think it's gonna be out.

Okay, Rob.

I'll uh get back with you.

And Ben?

I think I have the reverse problem.

I think I can do the 20th, but the 21st maybe out.

All right.

So what I will say is that 90 days after this virtual camp, it is on demand, a recording.

So anybody that's not able to make it, I can provide that recording as well.

For education credits, it's this counts as well.

Yes.

Is the the full two days count so correct?

Okay.

So correct.

Um and uh like I said, I'm I would just need to know um uh three weeks before the camp because we do have to make payment.

Each person, even if you are a member, it's $65, but it will be under the umbrella of the city of City Downtown.

So if I guess just let me know if you guys are available, that way I can have a head count, and then we can just proceed in purchasing the virtual camp.

Hey any other other thing.

Wonderful.

Next on the agenda's adjournment.

Anyone want to adjourn?

Dave makes a motion, they're second to adjourn.

Philip's second.

All right, let's get out of here.

Uh 30 actually, two back here.

So it's question 40.

Yeah, that case if they're able to repair it, you don't need to come back.

But that's probably just hiring up.

Because I got two of those.