We're gonna kick this off at 6.02 p.m.

So welcome uh everyone to the historic architecture review board meeting of May 4th, 2026.

Harb is an advisory body to city council.

City council renders the final decision of Hard recommendations.

Um, under the direction of the historic design guidelines, hard review covers the general design, arrangement, texture, material, and color of a building or structure.

Barb will also examine how these factors relate to similar features around your building.

Anyone in attendance wishing to comment on any of these listed items on tonight's agenda are required to sign in for record purposes.

I think you both signed in.

If you would like to address anything, feel free to sign up as well.

Um, sorry, we'll get to you in a second.

Uh staff will introduce and present the proposal through a prepared report, which was provided uh to the applicant and board members for review prior to this evening's meeting.

I think can then provide additional context to their proposal before discussion.

Presentations are limited to 30 minutes and comments from any interested party other than the applicant are limited to five minutes.

After the presentation, the board will discuss the merits of the project among themselves, but will ask the applicant and staff for relevant information to supplement the discussion.

After deliberation, HARB will recommend to approve as submitted, approve with conditions, deny with explanation, or table the project for further discussion.

If the applicant is not uh present at the meeting, or information provided is not sufficient, the board may table a project until the next meeting to provide the opportunity for the applicant to be present and or supply sufficient information for discussion.

A proposal will only be taken once.

If requirements are not satisfied at the following meeting, the board may automatically recommend denial and require the applicant to reapply for a new certificate of appropriateness.

Meanwhile, no work can proceed until a council resolution and a certificate of approvedness is received.

Once received, you will then be able to pull any additional permits associated with your project.

Let's move on to roll call for today's meeting.

Please respond with um here are present to reflect on the minutes.

AJ Me?

Here.

David Huber.

Yeah.

Alex and Celeste?

Here.

Here.

Philip.

Here.

All still here.

Okay.

Uh moving on to minutes of April 6th, 2026 meetings.

Everyone had a chance to review the minutes.

Any comments or corrections?

Someone like to move to approve the minutes.

Motion to approve.

All right, got a motion from Rob, second from Philip.

Yep.

All in favor approval.

Aye.

All right.

Any opposed.

Great.

Moving straight into new business.

So 535 North 6th Street, assuming that's here.

Do you mind stating your names and addresses for the record?

Pedro Perez, uh 530.

The properties, right?

535 North 6th Street.

Okay.

Mega to now.

I'm sorry.

Mega T now.

Yeah.

All right, we'll begin with a reading from staff.

535 North 6th Street is located in the old Fairgrounds Historic District.

It's a three-story brick row home, circa 1889, and it's a porch house.

The property sustained a fire in 2022.

This application is for the following items.

To legalize the installation of eight final windows along 6th Street on the second and third floor.

Legalize the porch picture window.

Replace the missing transom above the entry door with clear quarter-inch glass.

The basement opening covered with pie wood will be repaired to reflect its original appearance using wooden beaded board.

The light fixture on the porch to match the neighbors with similar design.

And to repair the front steps to match the original bull nose profile.

So for under legalization of the installation of three eight final windows along 6th Street on the second third floor.

The previous windows were vinyl windows, and the new replacement windows are also vinyl.

The new windows appear to be smaller or framed in compared to the previous windows.

It would be appropriate for new windows to match the original size of the window opening.

Legalize for legalizing the porch picture window glass replacement.

The application includes a photo of the previous condition of the window where the glass is shattered.

Existing wood frame and detailing appear to have been retained, which is appropriate.

For replacing the missing transom above the entry door with clear quarter-inch glass.

The transom above the front entry door maintains the original wood frame and has a plywood info panel.

The original glass was previously removed.

Maintaining the original frame and replacing glass with clear quarter-inch glass is appropriate.

The basement opening covered with pie wood to be repaired to reflect its original appearance using wooden beaded board.

The B board would provide an appearance consistent with the previous condition.

All wood elements should be painted.

The image of the neighbor's light fixture shows an appropriate light fixture style.

Final product selection should be submitted to staff for approval.

Repair of the front steps to match the original bulldoze.

Maintaining the original profile of the steps is appropriate.

The proposed material for repair of the steps was not submitted.

Products should be compatible with existing steps to ensure a sound repair.

Staff recommend approval with the following conditions.

That windows are sized to the original window opening dimensions.

All new wood elements are painted.

The final light fixture selection is submitted to staff for approval.

Product information for scale repair is submitted to staff for approval.

Right?

This is no house recruitment.

This is the whole application.

No, I mean that things should cover a whole bunch of what we were trying to present to the board.

So members of the board, do we have any comments?

So the number of things we'll go through them line by line.

Staff has four recommendations and recommends approval with those conditions.

So our goal is that you know, whatever work you do, um it follows the guidelines, so you can just do it once and then we can all walk away and it's compliant.

So the the intent of the the first um comment was um, and it's you know, it's kind of tricky that you know sometimes you have an existing building with sort of odd-sized windows, and then you go to the store and they have like four window sizes.

And so what it appears that you might have done or you might have tried to do was like to frame in the window opening in order to you know make it fit what you could find, and what what we have in the guidelines is really not to do that, but rather to have a window that that fills that existing opening.

Um, so sometimes that means you know, ordering a custom size or or something like that.

And you know, we we appreciate that you're here so that we could sort of explain that to you.

Right.

And that's what we see there in the picture, right?

Like trying to put fitting to make it fit.

Yeah, so the the framing in is is sort of what we had an issue with.

Um is this the is this the second floor that we're looking at?

It's sort of yeah, that's the second floor.

Second floor, okay.

Did you do the third floor as well, or was it just the second four where that kind of bump out is the third floor?

So second and third floor, you have that that bump out there.

I mean, the third floor we did replace, but it fit perfectly in.

Okay.

Yeah.

Yeah, we didn't have to do any fitting.

Okay, okay.

So I just want to be clear.

The windows that we're looking at were already replaced.

Correct.

So yeah, I'm not sure if we should have brought that up that we didn't even realize it was in the historical when we came in.

And so I just want to check with staff.

The recommendation, the condition here is that windows are sized to the original window open dimensions.

That's a recommendation from staff to approval of the windows being replaced again.

And we're also at this point where the the windows that you installed were these vinyl windows, which is not an acceptable material.

So in the historic district, um, they give you you know, certain materials that you're allowed to use, and vinyl windows is not on the menu.

So what we're saying is since you have to take out these vinyl replacement windows anyway, and you gotta put something else in.

We want you to put the right thing in.

So, you know, rather than having vinyl, and rather than like framing it in, um it would have to be um a um a material like we have in the guidelines, like a wood window, a clad window, and it'd have to be full to the rough opening.

Okay, then they say it's on me and we must kind of get it.

No, okay, la madera.

So I think there might be because he's the contractor kind of working on it as well.

Yeah, there might be a misconception with that being the fitting is actually that the wood that was there as the framing thing was burnt.

Yeah, okay, so there was a fire here.

Yeah, so it wasn't it wasn't that that was replaced to make it fit, it was that was existing there, was burned and like in the very bad shape.

Okay, yes, we when we play the wood, the we don't put no show wind.

We could the same sign window.

Yeah, I mean what I'm getting at is that the window that you put in, it's it's not allowed anyway, because it's a vinyl window.

So since you have to go back and get the correct window, you want to just try to get like what it says in the guidelines a wood window or an aluminum cloud wood window.

That says we have vinyl window before that's what we were trying to prove that in the pictures, and I don't know, Brendan, if you could bring it up.

We were hoping to bring some of the ones that were broken there, but that's what led us to make the interpretation that it was something that was allowed because it was like broken pieces of the vinyl one from before.

From when you had when you had the buyer.

Yeah, when we purchased the house.

Yeah, that's what I'm trying to understand.

Because yeah, I see the pictures in the application of the the burned out um vinyl windows, and the picture from 2021 shows the previous vinyl windows to the current vinyl windows.

I I personally don't see uh substantial change in dimension or configuration.

And while we would never approve these windows to replace any historic windows, I don't, it's not like these are even replacing historical windows that were down in a fire.

This appears to fall within in kind in my interpretation.

But again, the the board can have a different interpretation.

Um so I think you know, had this not been a violation correction, I still wouldn't have stated that because I think the original windows 21 to me appeared to be given the relatively same configuration.

And so that's why I got staff for the clarification because I believe the condition that staff includes would allow what is put there as long as they're properly framed in with painted material.

So the when I was comparing the previous condition before the fire, it appeared that there were vinyl windows, and it looks like the the second floor windows don't have the same clear blast width as the previous windows, so there appear to be a dimensional difference just for the second floor windows.

Gotcha, and it looks like those are framed in more.

Um but it is so that's 21, right?

So the the framing in seems like a a little bit um muddier of an issue.

Um as far as material goes, um, what was your thought process, AJ, that because at some point somebody replaced these windows with vinyl, that now that there's another replacement that that that they're about to continue with that non-conforming material.

Well, and that in kind is if it's the same replacement.

If you're replacing the same configuration, the same dimension, the same material with the same all of our check marks, um, then it's an in kind.

And and that, yes, I believe that would be allowed in my interpretation of the guidelines.

But if you were to replace a previous window that was not approved, you replace a previous vinyl window with a new vinyl window that is a different configuration or a different dimension, then that is a change, and that is not subject to the N Kind provision.

And so I'm looking at the 2021 to today and trying to determine if there is a change in dimension, muttons, mullions.

Is it is vinyl to vinyl, and they do appear to be the same configuration.

Um so where is the in-kind replacement?

What what provision is that?

Section 3.5.

All right.

Okay.

I'm in 3.5.

And we have 3.5.8, which says what is the preferred material for most replacement windows.

5.9.

Um replace windows with materials if in-kind replacement isn't fees of and they give you you could have aluminum clad wood, composite wood, fiberglass, and then at the very end it says vinyl windows are not appropriate.

Was it the solicitor's interpretation that provided the document interpretation of the in-kind definition?

I'm trying to go back to find that.

Yeah, and looking at the window organized uh the thread up front page seven design guidelines.

So if they're organize around governing principles and standards maintain or repair, restore, and reuse, or replace and kind, or replace with accepted alternate materials.

And what we're talking about is the replacing kind, not repair, restore, reuse, not replaced and accepted alternate materials.

In my opinion, but if these windows are a different dimension, then it would not follow that.

Yeah.

The reason I'm thinking differently in terms of you know that in kind would re apply to something like this, is because clearly the um pre-fire vinyl windows don't match the guidelines and are not um original to the home.

So clearly at some point somebody put them in without any sort of arbrup.

So an application like that would mean that almost any modification that was done, you know, just on the slide without our approval, you know, somebody puts in a vinyl door, somebody you know puts vinyl siding over something, any of that that um as long as it's not you know caught in enforcement that then that could continue to be replaced with that non-compliant material, whereas it maybe it's my reading is that you know that the guidelines are keep trying to, you know, if there's a non-compliant material, try to steer you back into a compliant material at the at the point where um yeah, and I mean I I thought that my thinking was in-kind replacement means there could be sort of oddball original things to the home that aren't really in the guidelines as far as materials, but you know, just this one house has some sort of um, you know, they they've got a copper windows or something unusual, you know, that you could you could replace it with that, but it'd be original to the home, you know.

Right, I agree with the interpretation.

It reads right in the in the in the guideline book here.

The replacement the in-kind is a replacement of an element with a new element of the same material color, texture, shape, and form as the original that restores not as not of something that was already replaced, but of the original.

Yeah, and I'm reading similar on page 18.

Page 18 has similar uh repair rather than this definition.

And I guess what I'm arguing falls more into their runway deteriorate architectural features, uh, repair and maintenance can stabilize with the same features, but you're right.

The replacement kind does reference the replacement trail needs to match the old both physically and visually replacement must match the original, the original in size appearance.

Alex, any folks?

Yeah, both the second floor.

It doesn't look so like the dimensionality is quite there.

It's like that's what I think also, and I don't know if you're gonna find a proper one that vinyl size either.

Um recommend going back to the original as well.

So uh I'm definitely hearing the majority not agreeing with the interpretation that these these replacement windows can be legalized in any way, so they definitely need to be removed and what the replacement is the conversation correct, and we don't have a replacement window right now, right?

We took a picture of every the whole window because no glass and the ending, any window, no glass because that when the the firemen over there they broke everything, yes, the the the frame we took picture before throw it out.

But we're not arguing that they didn't need to be replaced, it's obvious they did.

It's just the the windows that go in their place, the guidelines can't be vinyl.

Like that's the one thing that's very clear.

It's just not vinyl.

There's a lot of composite materials that could potentially be considered there's wood replacement of the original that can be considered.

Um, in situations like this, in which obviously, guys, this this house was in very, very bad shape, as you guys probably know.

I mean, this is kind of not a normal situation.

Is that something that ever gets taken into consideration?

Just there was really nothing to guide us on the proper way of doing it because obviously the stuff that was there is obviously in violation.

So does any of that it's taken into consideration.

There is a guide for the property.

But I'm just no, I yeah, I understand.

And I mean, shame on the purchaser, right?

For for not doing their homework.

We really did not really know the guidance, I mean, and the concern part of the concern was just this wide open, you know what I mean?

Yes, you could put plywood and stuff like that, but like the whole house is like wide open.

Whatever we have to guide us as to right the right way is obviously the wrong way.

So, you know, it's just kind of a shitty situation.

Sorry for the word.

Very shitty situation.

Trying to do the best you can put a lot of time and effort and money, and you find out it's gotta be switched.

Right, right, right.

Unfortunately, it's on the primary facade.

If it was the rear of the building, it would be much more easier, reasonable to accept the the vinyl.

And kind of for your argument, the the windows that you put in as a temporary structure to prevent the egress issues aren't something we're we're ruling because like you know, you can put a tarp over a roof as well.

That doesn't mean allow that tarp to remain there forever.

That's not a replacement.

Um I appreciate that there's a lot of elements here that are trying to restore the property.

So we definitely want to see this in time.

Absolutely.

I try to stop it.

No, no, no, I don't think it's gonna come knock the place down.

So no, I could tell guys.

I mean, uh Brenda has been very, very helpful.

It's just you know, very, very difficult situation, but it's not your fault.

You guys are just doing your job.

And I and I I believe I was just trying to consider this this all distance current scenario, but uh you know, we we we we have a responsibility to interpret what the neighborhood has asked us in this guidelines to do, and reading it clearly.

We yeah, it's not clearly not unanimous that the overwhelming majority is understanding that interpretation of the windows you insult.

One of the concerns of my part, so and I think I shared it multiple times, and I know it's not gonna lead me anywhere, right?

But just something to share is another guidance that we had apart from what we were able to see there, is the surrounding.

I mean, all of the houses around them are vinyl as well.

That's the next part of our agenda.

Yeah, we just the list of non-compliance.

These people are gonna be oh so we don't want you to end up on the next list that we'll be talking about.

That's why we're trying to get you literally on six tree, yeah, but just right there.

To look at the rest of the points, so we already kind of beat you up about the windows, but that the rest of these things I think are fairly queer.

You know, that the wood elements, you know, your proposal um looks to be within the guidelines.

He brought in the sample of how you're gonna do that or so it's something like that.

You know, I'm speaking for myself.

It seems like that that meets, and if anybody else has a thought, that basement door.

If we buy if we it's vinyl before, we you know that's why we we introduced the same.

We would never tell you to take your vinyl windows out and put wood in just because it was illegal, but I know something that you did.

I mean, once you re once you take out the origin the uh the violated material, you gotta put the right but we don't know it's historic area.

That's a that's why you know uh when we buy the house.

Well yeah, the more violations that occur on these homes, the less it looks like a historic district.

I agree.

That's also why we have a real three listings to uh show the historic property.

And we went around to every building last summer and reminded every owner.

I don't think this one came.

I don't think this one came as a listing.

I think it was compared with I don't even think it came up as a listing.

I mean the the shape that it was, I don't think it was.

Yeah, we just bought it again.

But it's okay.

I understand the frustration.

I think I totally do.

Um we are we have a staff recommendation to approve with four very small conditions.

I think we're close to getting you approval.

Um the only I mean we haven't discussed the other ones, but I I feel like we're gonna be okay with the other ones.

The windows are the only issue, and what we have right now is kind of uh an understanding that the current windows can't remain on the front facade.

Um I think the second and third floor.

We didn't discuss the first floor yet.

Um the alternate windows staff is recommending approval as long as they match the original, but often we need to see that material, and so I don't know if we need a table to see the material, or if we need to approve with the staff condition.

That's what I need to hear from the board.

Um I I tend to go with staff on this, but I'm curious to hear other people's thoughts too.

Dave.

What uh the rest of the conditions are you pretty you could be comfortable with with staff's recommending for the rest of these?

Oh yeah, on the rest of the items, yes, yeah.

Okay.

Oh, you guys get to see it already.

Yeah, we'll just kind of make it.

Oh, okay.

I have one question now.

Um we have pictures, close-up pictures here of yeah, the wood shingles.

Did were you intending to do any repairs for those?

I mean yeah, I mean, we didn't have anything in mind on unless something has to.

I mean, but no, you don't have to.

Like at some point something left.

Yeah, relatively soon, yeah.

Sooner than later.

There was a previous version of this application that had included some painting of that.

So the the photos are from that, but no.

Here's what not to do.

Don't just rip that out and put vinyl siding.

That would be a problem.

Okay, because it'll mess up with the still remote.

Right.

So before if you do have to change the wood shape.

Oh, I'm sorry.

I'll pause it.

Okay.

Um, yeah, so okay.

So my comment we we were talking about the wood shingles, wood shakes.

So when you are ready to replace them, don't just take them out and put vinyl siding there.

Yeah, guidelines and figure out what the appropriate shape is going to be shapes and vinyl's not going to be good at all.

But then you have to keep similar similar shapes.

So that that's down the road, but just make a phone call before you tear that out and buy new stuff.

Fortunately, that's not a part of this application.

Right.

All you have to do is chat with them first.

Yeah, yeah.

And also the woods should be painted.

But not at the end.

Any exterior wood.

Yeah, we're not doing that.

Yeah, I'm just giving them the information.

For we do have uh product information to stair repair submitted.

What is the yeah, the proposed repair existed?

The concrete one, the bull nose.

Yeah.

Just the same design bull nose as it is.

Yeah, just repairing the original.

It's not broken, just the repair in the bottom corner and don't coat it in black after you're doing it.

So okay.

Um I think repair the concrete, just like fix it.

So I don't see any issue here that but we keep the the recommendation, just send a message to staff of what what coding you might do, what the repair material is, and I think that should be okay.

So it sounds like we have everything.

Well, so let's talk about the main window, the first floor window.

Um staff says it's appropriate.

I have no issue with that.

Well, I do have a question about the transit actually.

Okay.

So that's just gonna come out and be one single pane.

Clear clear quarter inch.

It's the same as what was before just a little bit thicker glass, right?

Yeah, yeah.

Oh, up there.

Yeah, where the platewood is not the stained glass we're talking about.

No, we're the plywood.

Okay, got it.

The uh the window that's there right now, is that still using the original frame on the picture window?

Which one on the porch?

Yeah.

Yeah, just the the mouthful is just the glass.

Yeah, the glass.

Yeah, the glass.

Yeah, it was only the glass.

Okay.

But the frame is the original distortion.

Okay.

Uh you were briefing.

And that was before we knew it was historical.

Yeah.

So you were pretty fortunate that the transit window didn't get busted up.

Yeah.

Now I think the original one about the door was clear at one time, too.

Yeah.

Because I know on the inside it was like a kind of there were two windows on either side, too.

So one of those might be a similar size as well.

Rob, that's required to be tempered, right?

Above the door, correct?

No.

Really?

Okay.

So they were good on the first four windows, yes?

So really all we're discussing is the second third four windows, which need to be replaced.

If they're replaced, you have an alternate uh vendor for windows.

Do you know what material and where you get them?

Chevroletana.

No.

AJ, quick question he was asking.

I mean, potentially would, but is there some sort of extension that is given to this or not really?

Like some time frame to make the repair or a conditional move forward, and by this day it needs to be replaced type of stuff.

So the process can be slow by two months, but then once they get the COA, how quickly does it repair need?

So once you have your COA technically, you have to buy a year, you have a year to get um repair because they coincide with the other components.

Okay, so as long as we make the decision, hey, we're gonna change it to this.

We do get some time, but we need to make the change before it gets any approval, right?

Okay, does it work?

You'll get the CO, you get you the approval of what you're planning to replace it with.

Okay, and then you can you can begin to make all of those changes under the approved scope of work.

So you can start to fix all the other stuff, okay, and then you would have that time before the city reaches out and say, hey, you never did these windows, and then you could get another violation.

I don't know if there's an ordinance.

So what happens is after that year passes by, I'll give you a reminder because I'll get a reminder in my system.

Hey, what's going on with your sale and have you guys work during your COA and you guys completed your COA?

Okay.

If there's anything that we can do kind of work that's a certificate of appropriateness, right?

Yes, okay.

Yeah, but by but I need to give you a plan of hey, this is what we're doing type of stuff.

We haven't even get that.

And I believe what could happen is so you get you would you would come in with your proposed alternate window, and if you need you know nine months to replace it, that's fine.

We're not saying that you can't take that long, but um if you decide that the replacement that is approved under your certificate of programs would be better served by a different replacement, you can always come back and do this again for just the windows, and we'll say yeah, go for those instead and say, okay, just you know, don't buy your alternate replacements and then come in and replace them again.

Okay, so add that.

So what we would hopefully do tonight is say, hey, we're gonna approve your request with the condition that you're gonna find windows that meet the standards, and you're gonna call staff and they're gonna say go ahead.

In the meantime, with that approbe with that approval, you can start moving forward.

Okay, that way that way you don't have to come back to this meeting.

Okay, so I could tell you today would change them by wood or specification.

Oh, we still need the specification.

I will send that to you.

Right?

Is that the way to you?

And so that's a question for the book if we're comfortable having that be approved by staff.

Uh here, are you okay, Brandon?

If we kind of throw that back at you, you know.

Um, we the design guidelines in it.

I do see any sort of complications.

I'll reach out to the board.

Okay.

I don't have a problem with it, Dave Alex.

No, so I believe uh okay.

So I believe that would mean we're following all of the staff recommendations for oh my gosh, this is a long time spot.

Um, but uh adding to condition number one with zap approval.

Yeah, right.

Okay.

Any other questions can say I'm gonna explain to them real quick.

I know I listen a little bit.

I don't understand.

Okay, sure.

It leases in problem.

No, you're not seeing that because you know pass on the CO.

Now does this has he has a question about the COO.

Does this have correlation with the COO?

Like this has to be approved before COO gets approved.

Yes.

Will they issue a certificate of occupancy before the COA is closed?

No, they we usually um you know, because see it the historic um permit um is the certificate of appropriateness is before the jobs the work starts, you know.

So yeah, I mean sequence-wise, you know, you really can't occupy the building, it's still like a construction project, and and the hard is one of the first stops to make sure that hey, you know, here's the materials that you're putting in that it complies.

Um so yeah, you can't occupy the building until you get all this straightened out.

So in other words, we need to figure out the the window situation before we can get a COA.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Sorry, I'm confusing the two.

Don't forget that's the CD, the whole six three.

The whole six three, and why we had to do.

I was I was thinking of another.

Yeah, I was thinking of another example, just I'm a building inspector for the city of where we had like a fire in the historic district.

Um, I was out to one last year, it was 204 north ninth street, and that was one where it was the same thing, it was a three-story building in the middle of a row, and it had a fire on the second and third floor, and they had to replace all the windows, and uh, you know, they got insurance, and um, you know, they they they did a great job.

They got the the wood windows and it all looks real nice.

And the the the contractor told me that the insurance ended up you know covering it because it was required by the local ordinance.

So, you know, you you might be able to, you know, if you're working with the insurance, you know, let them know that you need extra for the additional material.

Oh, the challenge here is that I guess the fire happened under the previous owner.

So we bought the house burnt.

Oh, okay.

So it's kind of all fallen into our pockets in a way to figure it out.

Yeah, that's that that does kind of, and they didn't transfer it over to you.

So I mean it it's to answer your question.

Um we the board we do two separate things.

The one is you know, we give you permission to do things correctly, and then if we discover that people have done things incorrectly, we we go after them, which takes time, but eventually it it happens.

So we we appreciate that you're coming in and you want to do something right, and you know, it might not be tomorrow, but yeah, the other ones that are in violation, we're gonna we're we're slowly churning through them.

Um it's not a perfect system, but um uh eventually we'll we'll we'll be able to get through all these, and many of the ones that we're gonna talk about tonight that are on in violation, six streets, six streets, six streets, six, yeah, sorry.

Right.

We're we're we're developing a question though about you were saying earlier about the certificate appropriateness, you can give with with condition with conditions, you're still giving a COA.

So wouldn't that satisfy their need for a COA for the CO?

Oh well they can't what there you want to put tenants in though, right?

You want to occupy it?

Yeah, I mean you really can't until this is straightened out, you know.

So the work's done.

Is it like a tentative COA that would issue the approval?

Because and then before the COO is issued, someone would say, hey, it would brand it or check to see that all the conditions of the COA are marked off.

Is that how that works?

I mean it potentially could be, but I'm not sure that impacts our decision tonight.

I'm just talking about question.

Right, yeah, right.

If we give them a temporary COA, would that not hold the same weight?

That's my question too.

Okay.

Right.

So the question is tonight, if we make good approval with conditions, does that give them a COA?

So yes.

Okay, so he'll give them a COA with conditions.

Okay.

And then if they go to whomever and say, hey, can you get my CO?

Here's my COA.

Well that will that hold conditions.

That's all not our Okay, we don't know.

Okay.

Well, you may know that that may be a tree you can bark up, but I don't know.

I just I don't know, maybe they would say, Hey, did you meet all the conditions of your COA to go back and talk to you?

I don't know, but so that might be something that we would entertain with the inspectors of all do tonight is make right.

We're not responsible for the CO, but I would say once we do what we do here, I would certainly go find out about that because you may have certain ways to serve it.

With conditions.

I don't know.

Hopefully, I think if you the city if they want to put the stepped in the window and the whole six or three.

The city had to make a plan to help the people and it's and it's in the historic district, so not all of it.

Yeah, no, that is out of six.

So that's the whole it it is it thought it is vinyl.

Anything you can you can't house by house is vinyl.

You can't find any window or need that window send out.

I understand.

Yeah, I got a lot of people doing the wrong thing.

And also the most common conversation in every historic district in the country.

I mean, we show I think we show Brandon, because one of the stairs, the concrete stairs, uh the repair we had was like the corner and like that line.

And literally the one next door we were tripping over the concrete falling apart.

And and I think you mentioned that they got a violation, yeah.

Genuinely cannot wait until violent is or not the goats for alternative because that's like the one it's it's about the structural integrity of the network that's well, yeah.

They don't last for the full third.

So I believe we're close to passing something.

Anything else that needs to be discussed here?

I'm good.

You good?

I'm good.

Make this motion if you're good.

You're ready, AJ.

All right.

Um, so I'm gonna move to approve with conditions, the application for the on May 4th, 2026 for window replacement, window and step repair, and Porsche lighting for 535 North Sixth Street, with the following conditions agreed to by the applicant.

Um that windows are sized to the original window opening and dimensions with a material approved by the guidelines submitted to staff for approval prior to installation.

All new width elements are painted.

Final light fixture selection is submitted to staff for approval prior to installation.

Final product information for stair repair is submitted to staff approval prior to installation.

I find the compliance with the following sections for guidelines for historic districts, chapter three, section 3.2 wood siding and trim, and section 3.5 windows, and find that there are not circumstances need to the property.

That concludes my motion.

Is there a second?

Second.

Rob, all those in favor of approval with conditions.

Right.

Any opposed?

Okay, thank you.

So thanks for coming back.

There's three conditions in there that you submit prior to doing any construction.

You still gotta wait for your COA to get issued by council.

Okay.

Um so just make sure you submit the proposed alternate windows to staff.

Right.

The uh the light fixture before you install it, submitted to staff, and then uh your plan for step repair, like the the concrete, the concrete when you'll done it.

What the process is gonna be, what's the material the finishing code submitted to staff?

Okay.

Okay.

All right.

Okay, thank you.

I ain't gonna you'll think we'll librarito.

He was just asking about the windows, but I have that book that you gave me, and in there it has reference of the wooden ones and all that stuff.

Yeah, you'll think.

And there's also a standard version of the guidelines.

Of the guidelines, okay.

All right, okay, perfect.

Thank you, guys.

Thanks for coming in.

You guys are very nice.

Oh, thank you.

Good job.

Sorry that we were a little frustration there, but thank you for being understanding, guys.

Appreciate it.

Thank you, guys.

Appreciate it.

Thank you.

All right, that concludes new business.

Uh moving on to violations.

That's what they wanted to cover.

That's what they're gonna cover that basement opening with as an example.

Um so we have a number of violations discussed.

We also have um someone here discussed a violation that they believes on this list.

I'm not sure which direction we want to go.

Should we start with?

Start with.

All right.

So we're here to discuss uh violations, and I believe you represents 233 North Ninth Street.

Great.

Uh if you want to move up front here.

This is not an official um voting setting, so we'll move to there, but you are on the record, just for your awareness.

Um so could you mind stating your name and address for the record?

My home address or the address of the building.

Uh your home address.

Uh Michelle Evans, 3927 Maple Street, Allentown 18104.

All right, thank you, Ms.

Evans.

And so um this violation, let's start with what the violation is.

Okay, so uh along while driving along um 9th Street, it was observed that their main front door had been changed um without any permits or certificate of appropriateness or reviewation letter was sent out.

Um or is here to remote discussion violation.

So there is a formal process for violating corrections, but do you have questions on that process, or is there something that you want to discuss prior?

Um well, I guess I have questions about everything.

I mean, I didn't realize I needed a permit number one.

Um that was handled all the time.

So I was just trying to rectify uh a damn uh broken door and uh security issue um for my tenants.

So I I'm here to find out what I need to do to get the door approved.

Does the original door still exist?

No.

We want to thank you for coming in.

We know this is difficult.

Um, and you know, as you can see by the previous, you know, folks that came in that you know, sometimes you know, people make mistakes with for following the guidelines, but um ultimately just like you care about you know your tenants and making sure that that they're safe, you know, we really care about the historic district and so do I.

I don't know, we've owned the home for 20 years and we lived on 9th Street.

So I mean I I get that.

It's not that I don't care about it's a really nice house, we're really happy with it.

And um we we think that this can you know certainly be fixed and kind of get back into the guidelines.

So I think you heard from the previous um application that the the process here is we need to find the appropriate alternate, and that's what we would rule on.

And then there can be some time to repair that, but we've got to find the door that would go in its place.

And so I I believe when you come before the formal hearing, we're gonna discuss whether the door that you put in is in keeping with the guidelines.

I can't really see it in this picture, but if if staff is saying it's a violation, that's that we're we'll review that and it's probably going.

And then if you come in with an alternate door to replace it, either found through a salvage yard, a lot of people find them from you know other historic districts of the country.

There's a lot of salvage of these things because sometimes these historic buildings are removed for various reasons and those doors are saved or those windows are saved, or they're custom, and that that's an option.

Well, this this door was not reframed.

Everything the frame is still the original.

They were they couldn't be shut.

That's the original door.

Was that the door?

Was it the you have repaired the doors?

No.

And then this is the door that I put in.

What color what color is it?

Is it this dark color?

Matches the shutters.

That's the light.

Yeah, yeah.

That was before I had it painted.

Oh, you can't.

Okay, got it.

Yeah, he couldn't paint it when he installed it due to the weather.

Okay.

So it's paint.

That's a wooden door?

It's a fiberglass door.

Really heavy.

I don't know.

I mean, I could ask my contractor, but this is swing heavy when you're open or no, it's not so bad.

Okay.

So we we can't make a decision right now because it has to go before the formal such thing.

The violation um when it comes through staff, it could come before the and it could just be you know approved, you know, that we approve the door as submitted.

I'm not sure what the the staff is gonna say on this door.

Um part of door replacements you need to kind of show the original door is irreparable, and that's a that's a higher actually to show that it's irreparable.

And then the alternate door needs to be in keeping with the guidelines.

So I would recommend coming back to a future meeting for this violation with information on the door that you installed, as well as doing search for alternate doors that could go there.

Um for us to discuss to move beyond the violation.

I don't think I totally understood why I was uh uh I was told to come here for the violation.

So that we when we spoke on the phone, you said come to the meeting for the violation.

So we'll be able to talk to the board and discuss the violation.

Right, right.

Okay, so now you're telling me I have to come back to another meeting because I don't have the appropriate information.

So hopefully that helps the previous case so you can kind of see.

I saw the I was I was getting there.

So I'm just trying to understand what I need to do to get past this situation.

Yeah.

Okay, so tell me what I need to do.

There's a three point six is a section you gotta read through.

I guess can we explain really quickly why the violence can make for the agenda is a reason violation, so it'll be on the next agenda.

So yeah, next month it'll be formally on the agenda, and that's when we can move forward with the decision on approval denying.

I don't think we can agenda under violations.

I looked at the agenda this morning.

Right, that's on a business.

Um so it's not a new report business, it's it doesn't ma'am.

Do you have a copy of these guidelines?

I don't okay.

So what 3.6 is the section that you need to look through.

Okay.

And that's all the doors, right?

And at that point, there's pictures of all sorts of stuff.

So when you read through that, and you can certainly call and talk to Brand Talk to staff to help interpret this stuff, but whatever door can fits within these guidelines theoretically would then be approved to say fine that it's a worthy replacement, and then the process stops there once you save God.

So before you buy or do anything, I would say study through this.

I bought it already.

So that so that's the that's the issue.

So how do I get that door approved?

That door, if I mean, I don't think it, I don't know if it meets these guidelines, just looking at it offhand.

I'm kind of guessing that it doesn't, in which case you'd have to get a new door, but I can't so how if you if we get to that point is by bringing in all the information on the material of the door, how it's you know what it's made of, what the manufacturer spec of it, um that we can leave that or whatever, I'm gonna see kind of how far we can go tonight.

So it looks like prior to this replacement, there was like a double door configuration with um, you know, there's a handle on the one and then like a fixed pane on the other side.

And am I seeing it right that it was just replaced with sort of a wider but a single that's correct?

Okay.

So in the guidelines, it mentions that um replacement doors should duplicate the original in material.

So like if it was a wood door, then the one would be wood design, meaning, you know, since it was previously like a two-pane door, it'd be like that size, meaning not that you did that, but like you wouldn't want to frame it in to be real tall, real small if it was you know, a big double door like you had profile, meaning the configuration of how it used to be, where it was you know, solid at the bottom and it had the nice big windows above and operation, meaning just like before you could open the one side, you'd want to do the same thing where you can open the one side.

Why is that why does it have to be duplicated to the to the original?

Well, that's what the the guidelines offer and um the there are no alternatives.

Well, the the reason why that it mentions there is the composition of a door and its surrounding trim are significant architectural features.

So it's like one of the first things you see when you look at a house.

Okay.

Um so safety issues of crack addicts walking into the front door that it was what I was dealing with doesn't account for anything.

Well, obviously that's that prompted the replacement.

Right.

That's kind of the usually we don't really like to see doors replaced unless it's something like that where it there's no other choice, you know, it didn't work anymore.

You had to replace it.

So you did, but then it says, well, when you do replace it, that it has to follow the the things that I just read.

So um and so just like the previous conversation.

I mean, what you replaced you're you were trying to resolve a safety issue, and so what you put in was what you you know, like the temporary replacement.

And so what you put in was what you know, like the temporary replacement.

Um, and so from that perspective, the door you put in is is the temporary safety measure until you get to the permanent final order for replacement.

Um because you know, it's just like putting that tarp on that roof.

Yeah, that tarp on the roof is not gonna be approved for the final, but yeah, but you get we gotta maintain the original structure as much as possible.

Um I just have a quick question.

Is there is it a second set of doors on the inside?

Yeah.

And that was already a secure door.

Oh, okay.

So it wasn't the double doors on the inside as well.

It was already right.

That was already a secure door, but they can see we can swap figure it out.

Um I do appreciate you coming in tonight because often this process does take you know two meetings.

So I think you expended it by a month by being in here tonight.

We're hoping to give you a set of tools to be able to move past this violation quickly.

Um but there's there's kind of two steps there.

It's it's the original door to discuss what happened to that.

It it is you know, I guess against the law to destroy that piece of history, and that has already happened.

Um now we need to correct it um by following the guidelines of how to correct this process.

And then there's two options.

Uh looking at the door that was replaced, seeing if it meets all of the historic elements.

I doubt it.

But if you bring in all the material, we can review that to see if that's in.

Um, and then the other option is approving an alternate door replacement, and that's where I would get the measurements of the door and see if you can find any alternate materials anywhere else, any alternate manufacturers, alternate place to get the doors.

Um and we can bring that for an option to to correct this issue.

Um that's that's the process.

So we just wanted to make that clear.

You can communicate with staff through this process uh as we get to the violations.

So you will be on the next agenda.

We can able it if needed if there's more time for exploration, because we don't want you to come here and waste your time if if you don't have the alternate setup there.

But once it's a violation since there is a timeline there.

I do believe it's two months.

So um that's okay.

That's where we are.

And tell everyone here around, don't we those historic doors because that definitely is the easiest one?

Like, you know, sometimes they go to a facility nearby and you can just put those back on, it's okay.

Um, but if they're gone, then that's it.

Then we have to take these alternate paths.

Thank you.

So I will receive a notice that I'm on the agenda next week or next month or next month, rather.

Thank you for coming in that sorted.

So there's 12 other violations.

The 12, but when do we don't have to just be able to show you a record which's been um called out this past model?

Yeah, so you guys know.

I know in a few years ago, we always had a running list on violations.

So I'm trying to uh reintroduce that just in a different format.

If you is it possible to also add a column that says which historic zone it's in.

But that as well.

Okay, cool.

Um, also, would you like a before picture as well?

So what it would look like that way, if they do come in, we can have discussion.

I mean, if you have that available, that would be awesome.

I don't want that, I mean if it's gonna be a good idea.

I don't think it's three days to do that, but I mean, I don't get the impression that this is going to keep happening.

This sounds like a misunderstanding that some became um, but the person before the school, that is when they say, Oh, we're gonna come into the pre-review, and they can bring that information with to discuss.

So uh I guess I'm trying to argue, right?

So put the picture of the board for every single machine.

But I don't know if but if they're coming in and they say we're gonna chat, but yeah, yeah, yeah.

So that we can fold it up to everyone else's room and say, don't do this.

Um I will say that 4013.

If you see that on the violation maybe it's uh it's market violations, but that's just uh general maintenance.

I've been putting out general maintenance on letters to certain property owners as well.

Um property.

What is this this auto correct language?

Um yeah, no, thank you for keeping on top of this.

What's the wrong with uh storefront that also work?

All right, so I just just talked to solicitor the day about that.

Um they got reserved.

Um what is this one?

248 North Ninth Street.

On real southwest corner.

On Realty LC.

They were in here multiple times.

Yeah, they were there multiple times.

They got a COA approved for conditions, they haven't acted on any other series or conditions.

I've been reaching out to them since January, trying to get a hold of them, playing uh cat and mouse with them.

Um found out that that's not the original address, that's not their address.

So I found another address through the health department.

Um refile through the court system, and now they're going to serve with the new address for the constable.

If they don't serve them at that address, then we'll have somebody serve them at the store itself.

Have you had any reply contact from them?

I had one reply contact at the end of last year when I let them know that their COA had been was expired and that none of this conditions have been um followed, and they said we'll look into it and we'll get back to the and then you that goes through ever since.

Yeah, but that's been I've reached out multiple times to get the same act, it's the same email address that I was speaking with them with some yeah, I'm sure you have all the teased back because I have to have a rapid sheet.

Yeah, yeah.

Because when he comes with me, we're gonna have all our evidence to kind of support both claiming.

And we're doing corporate 12,000, which is the max.

Okay.

Yeah.

And I guess I'm just kind of hoping to follow this process to see how we can potentially streamline it.

Yeah.

Um it's a very it's a time to see.

There's a ton of stuff, yeah.

Your record keeping has to be detailed on that too.

Yeah, you like I said, you're fighting you're dealing with people that are actively trying to avoid you, right?

Trying to make your job harder.

So it's like uh it was 217 North Kave, another double door.

Just wonder.

I believe some of us.

Oh my god.

I mean, people have like no idea how much it thinks cost.

And they just casually take them out.

Very house too.

That's really frustrating.

Yeah, it was a double door, yeah.

All right.

Um, any other things you can be discussed on violations?

No.

Okay.

Um other business.

Um, I believe there's kind of two other business items.

One, I just kind of want to address the uh West Park situation, the the Ripple Church.

Um that came up a lot in email, so I want to put it up on the record that uh discussion on replacement of historic stain glass.

Um that's discussed quite a bit amongst our members on what process we went through in 2023.

Um I just want to state for the record.

I believe the determination has been that there's really no action we can take now.

It is it is asked that and ripple followed everything that we put on the record.

But I do get the impression that uh potentially some of the votes back in 2023 were maybe not made with uh you know full understanding of what we were approving.

And also, I believe that was a time when maybe some board members weren't comfortable taking a vote that was different than everybody else, because one thing I I want to I want this board to understand is that there's a reason we have a board, and it's because we're interpreting guidelines and not everyone's interpretation is the same, and it is okay for you to disagree and put a no vote on the record.

Um my job is to try and hear the majority and get get something passed.

But if if there's a vote that is coming through now or in the future that anyone of you are uncomfortable with, please put that no vote on there.

We can speak your mind because this does come back because what we do voting here has legs for years in the future.

So thank you again for all the efforts to try and resolve this.

Yeah, so I mean, I so I also want to put on record too, and just to your point, I think that over the past I don't know, six, eight, twelve months, there's been a lot of very profitable discussion amongst board.

I mean, Rob, you frequently look at things from a very different angle than I do, for example.

I really value that often often we come to the same conclusion, often come to different conclusions, but that that's a lot.

I think that you've had a lot of really valuable discussion from different viewpoints.

Um, I do want to referencing the ripple thing.

Um, yeah, I just is there any way to do we have that on record?

I would love the I was I might have was I virtual was I here, I don't remember because I know I did a lot of virtual.

Is there a way for me to I would just like to listen to the notes of it again?

I don't remember talking about such extensive stuff, so I would like to listen to it just to refresh what that conversation was.

Um you know, looking at the plans too.

It's just I it looks like the notes were for like four windows, not 14.

I need to I need to look at that a little bit more closely, but um for 100%, even if my even if the the proposal or the approval I submitted or proposed did count for all of them in no way, shape or form did I understand that and I thought it was a much more limited context, but anyway, so I will say I the firm that they got disrespectful.

So I don't think these windows are just disappearing into the night.

I would hope not.

I mean, but thing I'm curious about is okay or sire as well now.

Um what's the long-term plan for gonna be used now now ever again?

Yeah, I don't know.

Yeah, who controls the even though it's stored there at what expense and who has access and where can I mean that's a different issue, but yeah.

I mean, the letters and stuff from that firm seems like they've got a good process for it and seems like they understand the sensitivity, but and to your point uh on reviewing those notes, that's also why we review minutes every month.

So uh if there's a confusion, but those minutes didn't those minutes, even the way those minutes and notes were were written, seemed very ambiguous, not ambiguous purpose, but did not seem to even cover that scope.

It seemed the way the commas are written there, you know, comma system like the window system referencing like the small piece, that's how I read it.

There's notes to say minor change.

Yep.

Going from four to fourteen is not minor.

It would not have been written that way if it was included at content.

Right.

I looked at the plans too, and it calls out W7 and it points to four.

Yes, Windows, that's it.

Literally points to four.

They they applied to remove several windows and several, yeah, four.

That sounds right.

14, that doesn't sound like several.

It's like yeah, this seems like something we were hooding somehow or something happened.

This whole project, that whole project has been laden with baits and switches too.

On in other elements that don't involve harp.

That's why it's kind of like yeah, and I think that's why I'm I'm putting this on the record now.

How important it is to review those minutes to speak your mind, put it on the record.

And if there's a contentious topic, review those minutes the next month to make sure what you actually said last month is in there because that's our put it into the minutes.

It's you know, if if if staff writes it vaguely in the future, that's what courts look at.

What's in those minutes?

And to that same point too.

I fully understood.

I'm I'm with you on that.

I would also say that courts would look at plans and say, you guys submitted for four windows, that's what the approval was.

Now your plans say 14.

Don't try to switch it if it was approved for four.

Right.

I'm not saying that that's necessarily what happened.

And it didn't say four.

We're approving four in our minutes.

Right.

So I will, yeah, I would I lesson learned on my part for making those approvals, I'd be much more explicit, but I don't I want to listen, I just want to listen to those notes again so I can be full of demons in my own mind.

I mean, that like one thing stuff like that as a board, we would be like, yes, take those windows out.

I wouldn't have made that motion if I knew it was but in retrospect, just as like a thing, and this is probably something that goes with um COA.

It's like I guess they they're taking them out because they need transparent windows for residential, or yes, through so stay.

I don't think it's necessarily transparent, it's operable.

There's something, yeah.

Yeah, if I like I would have just been like and you need another plan, like you gotta work around the windows.

But well, new ones aren't operable too.

I mean well, they're gonna go with code, I'm sure, but those are yes, for for me, I understand I recall understanding that we're replacing those.

It seemed like you're confident, but in my recollection, because a long time ago, I feel like I remember thinking, man, I'm surprised that wasn't as big of a deal as it was.

And so I could be apologizing for not bringing that up and saying, hey, are we sure?

Yeah, um I just I mean, I also think Dave must not have been clear on it either, because I think by his voting record, there's no way you would have been like, go for it, take them out.

Absolutely.

My recollected was those four.

Well, and and and my understanding is like you can't really see them from the outside because they had the the covering over it, and that's why we quickly shifted to all of the up down lighting around it.

I remember the lighting thing right after the well, so right, there was a lot of conversation on these other very small issues, and that kind of there was also a lot on a break.

Anyway, was there because they were here multiple times in November 2023 was when that motion was made, right?

That was the one that actually mattered.

I think there's like a preliminary submission before that that we kind of kicked around, right?

Yeah, they came in and it was kind of like hey, this is not an official piece of business yet, but it will be you guys like what we're doing, kind of thing.

Yes, but I don't recall the windows being a part of that.

I don't see evidence of windows being a part of it.

Okay.

Well, I do we were there other members of the public here for the actual November 2023.

I don't recall, and I didn't see anybody listed on that.

I didn't I didn't see anybody listening there either.

Yep.

So thank you for the thank you.

Yeah, I appreciate everybody's input on that too.

Brandon, thanks for pulling up all the stuff too.

I know it's not and I believe this is a good segue to our next other business item roofs because we had another similar issue this last year where the language you put into our approval on roofs in West Park led to a confusing situation for branded to interpretate, interpret, interpreting interpret um what our intent was because of the order we put the language in.

So that language is important because that's what they right brain person is going to read in the future.

So um moving to roof discussion, I do think we should be in our revision of the guidelines putting in more clarity on the three districts and the different roof types.

Yeah, and whether color is more important or um, I think we can probably value some of these things as part of the guidance.

Not turn into like a numeric calculation, but um if it's a if it's a toss-up in a neighborhood, it's clear that the terracotta tiles and the color in Westmoreland are more significant than the other two districts.

So I would bring that into the the guidelines for roofs, and right now it's just our discussion on the general roofs guidelines.

I mean, do we need to go through section by section?

You want to do that right now?

Okay, you look the okay?

No, I'm sorry.

Prepare for this.

What um does anybody have any problems with how the roof section is written currently?

Like how it's broken up with you know the roofs and gutters and all that.

Yeah, or is there anything in here that you're looking at like this is garbage or this when you take this out or something?

That's clearly missing.

Um I think that um they could, you know, some things could be verified a little bit.

Okay, I think um like chimneys is one that I I feel that um the images make it clear that you know it's talking about chimneys that are character defining feature, like it's you know, going all the way up the side of the house.

Um versus um like how important is that to really maintain if it's not a defining feature.

Um and um you could almost change it by in the scoping at the beginning, you know.

Um chimneys are distinctive architectural features or maybe, you know, it or to say that in some buildings, chimneys are distinctive architectural features.

Um because I I think you know, in a building we might see, you know, four or five different things that that that's that's what makes that building cool, you know.

That's what makes it historic is you know, the roof, the windows, the door, the porch.

Um, but it it's really only on buildings like you see in the image that like okay, the chimney is is key because it's got some cool pattern or it's some neat shape, but I I really don't feel like on most buildings they're um a real significant like architectural feature.

I think it's just on some of these corner properties.

So you would almost want to say if a chimney has distinctive features on it, then that makes it distinctive or if it projects from the facade, you know what I mean?

Like in the images, it's showing that you know there's an exterior facade.

Sorry about that.

Um, and um and now it's projecting, you know, that that makes it distinctive.

Um, versus if it's just sticking up on the middle of the house halfway back to its back.

Yeah, like if you've got other issues in round.

Um question, actually, KJ.

So do you feel that there are any areas that we're specifically getting hung up this world comes with roofs during this past year?

I don't think so.

I mean, my my main concern is all the stuff people want to put on roofs and those whole sections, you know, mechanical equipment and solar vehicles.

So they're in there, and it's my only debate was should they be up in the guidelines, but I don't think they need to be.

The only thing that really stands out was that one um fire chimney that went back and forth on like two.

Was that the stuff covered?

Not the stucco covered one, no, it was like a uh like a steel steel painless steel type that went up uh street that was on chew between ninth and tenth.

Right, right.

Um so that's like a double wall, you know, chimney for like a natural gas appliance.

Sure, right.

And then we also got hung up quite a bit on turner between 11th and 12th right across the McKinney Elementary, that house kept coming back, but they wanted to put just like the caps, and they were all those plastic end caps for all of the exhaust for everything inside the house, which seems to be the standard off-the-shelf cap.

And I didn't really see anything addressed to what we should be doing, or a utility that gets punctured through a wall.

We don't have a historic cat to put on it.

Sure, okay.

So that's something we need to talk about.

Yeah, otherwise, I think I feel like the way we've worked through roofs over the past few years has been pretty efficient and pretty tight.

I think the conversation we had a few months ago saying like you know, we gotta stop finding exceptions and just start sticking to the rules as tight as possible.

I think that we all agreed on that.

I'm really for that.

I know I was uh saying this too.

I know I was very instrumental and kind of maneuvering things in order to get people approved, and I'm just I'm done doing I should not have done that, and that was kind of I was too lax on that.

Um, but I'm all for also saying, like, hey, West Park has, and I think it already is in here saying color becomes a bigger part of the conversation in West Park.

Is it more or less that I think is conceptual to the block, and I think I'm fine with that, but I I just yeah, I don't think I don't have anything fundamentally rewritten.

Yeah, okay, all right, yeah, I don't either.

I discovered one of those tile roofs is actually painted the green.

And it's like we'll do that.

Well, but at least we know it's red at the beginning, right?

One where that is.

One thing that stood out to me.

Uh I don't know with anyone.

Um page 40 for the examples for alternative material examples.

Um it's I've I've noticed this for a while, but it says architectural asphalt shingles, but that's an image of a GAS slate line, not an architectural shingle.

What page 40?

40.

So if somebody's looking in that football and there's I just noticed that.

Well, you yeah, yeah, that's not if we're saying architectural shingles, we're telling them no architectural shingles in our design guidelines that says alternative material.

Yeah, that's that picture.

You're absolutely right.

That's the GAF.

Yeah, yeah.

Yes, yeah.

I don't know that you can use a brand, but you might be able to just say, you know, slate lines.

Slate line, yeah.

Those have been white line technically uh an architectural shingle.

Yes, I mean, usually the I mean, maybe the language needs to be just laminated, because usually when people are proposing like architectural shingles are a shape shingle that's not just a free pad.

So oftentimes people are proposing architectural shake shingles, right?

They're supposed to be uh slate look asphalt shingles, right?

The shape, so it's still an asphalt shingle, but it's an architectural shingle, which is a category, right?

But it's it's usually it's the shake shingles, but then again, referred to as architectural shingles when it's really meant to be architectural shake shingles.

I would also know it's um page 10 just doesn't have any reference to colors and a bag room, and it just says it doesn't come that one open just reasonable page 10 on the table.

Um color it's like two thirds of the way down or a third of the way down.

Or is it painted color?

Because I mean if they're this integral color to products can be reviewed, but it's pink color, that's it.

And if you replace the roof with an alternate material, that would trigger the review.

So yeah, so maybe it's just another row.

So the is in that table on page 10 row four, you could change that to like paint, right?

Does not require approval.

Changing the color of a paint does not require, but okay.

Okay, so just to clarify the color of exterior features.

So instead of saying color, just say painting of you know X color paint color.

Paint color, yeah.

Yeah, exactly.

Nonsense.

Right, yeah.

Yeah, so paint color of exterior.

And I would even say paint color of exterior painted features, just so that I know that's using paint a lot, but just so it's it also eliminates the oh, I painted my brick, you know, because bricks are not supposed to be painted, you know.

Um, should our review process of roof materials go through like a you know, kind of three checks or something.

You were just talking about there's like the shape and then there's the color of material.

And we should be asked to be able to bring in their proposed group, and we're just kind of saying, oh yeah, that kind of matches whatever the shape, then we'd be looking at the thexile strength and integrity of a I think we're well, as long as we're saying I think the shape, color, and material are the three most important features, right?

I think we're usually pretty clear saying make sure those three do we need to note that specifically.

Well, when we get to like alternate materials too, what are we judging that ultra material on?

You know, when some new product comes out made of whatever whatever, um we should probably be looking at something related to that product.

Sure, okay, yes.

Does it have right?

Does it have like a durability?

And does it have a similar and then an integral color that won't just wear off but maybe if there's a footnote saying you know, understanding that new products and new technology become available, alternate materials would be judged primarily on material durability uh shape and conformity or formation and integral color.

But I I just don't want to put us in a position of having everyone come in and argue with us of like, oh, this is better for whatever reason.

Um so that durability test, it's like we would need to know okay, an original slate is 20 years, and that's above it.

So um I think we need to compare to the original material.

Yeah, right, right.

Compare, yeah, comparable, yeah, within like a 80 to 120 percent range or no, this isn't quite uh a static property, but when you start getting a tile roofing, it's also like that was kind of designed that way for like uh you basically changed the way the house is heaped after you take something like that out because a lot of it does keep life cooler than it otherwise would be the ventilates, but so it needs to be a demonstration.

There needs to be a demonstrat the demonstrable quality of its own serability compared to the original.

Do we need to make this section shorter?

Probably can't because there's so many different kinds of materials out there that we've gone over and over and over like you're saying all chapter three, yeah.

I'm not recommending them to make it shorter.

I'm just ignorant.

I think I mean I like how it's I do like how it's segmented, right?

There's plenty of the the it's nice to have more bullet points that you can reference in rulings as long as it's not so all over the place that there's conflicting bullet points.

And I don't think we run into too many conflicts on roofs, so uh I don't think there's an issue, but I just want to check.

Amy, how do you feel about that?

I like the way that it's broken out and laid out that you're not trying to accomplish 10 different things with each actual guideline, and you can point out you can see because the way that it's formatted, it's like, okay, if you have original, this is what should happen if you don't have original and replacing original, like it's it's formatted in a way that goes from the best recommendation to working down the lines of practices.

So as long and and I haven't across too much where it's contradicting itself or being duplicative because it's you know separated by like element.

So I think a lot of the length especially, I mean, even for ruse, it's like there's one page of guidelines, but then like five pages of additional context for materials, which I think is important to include like if there's any like revisions to it, maybe, but um, to talk through the importance of those original materials, because obviously people raise flags about like I don't want it islate anymore, or you know, being able to talk through all that different stuff is important to give information to property owners who don't necessarily have a background and understanding.

Um I always find your recommendations in here to be extremely informative and easy for me to read.

Do you you're saying you feel like this format you can navigate this well, you're not fighting it when you're researching it.

Okay.

As a reviewer, I think this works really well.

Okay.

Um it's nice to be able to point to like a specific guideline.

I'm not saying that you're not great.

I just you are, but this is also your this is working with you, not against you.

Right.

Okay, okay, good, good.

Do you what so you don't really you would be fine with leaving the formatting and the the segmenting pretty much as is?

Yeah, because in other municipalities, like they have a lot of very what I've seen is there's a lot of very paragraph focused things.

It's like narrative and okay.

You know, whether you're a reviewer or a property owner trying to figure out what to do.

Um I mean, it seems like you're usually able to reference these bullets rather than saying in here's a paragraph I have to interpret it, you're able just to draw those things out pretty simply, right?

Yeah.

Okay, okay, right.

That could even be an improvement in the the reviews that we provide.

Like we could give like guideline 3.1.10, and then you know, it's a property owner who's like, what's going on?

Where is this coming from?

They could more easily go reference back, or or even just paring down the section of the reference guidelines that are in the pre-reviews instead of just having the chapter that's there for reference.

It could be like here's the specific things that we were looked at when we were doing the review of this application.

Yeah.

You're pretty you you mentioned other municipalities.

You have pretty wide exposure to a bunch of these.

Yeah.

Okay.

And so you would rate this, or would you rate this on the scale there?

It is certainly like a longer document.

Um, but it is it does provide a lot of information.

Um I think so.

The formatting is really it's consistent with guidelines that we write in terms of breaking it down and providing you know, photos from that district and like diagrams that kind of help explain um, you know, similar to what happens here, like what are dormers and what are the different types of configurations or things that we tend to incorporate in guidelines as well.

Um the I mean the guidelines that we've written, I think about 90 pages.

So, like it is a lot, yeah.

Um, but there's it's worthwhile to have the information and it be a resource and not just like kind of vague or you know over prescription.

Right and over prescriptive or not comprehensive enough.

Yeah, do you off the top of your head, can you think of any other municipalities that have ones that you like that I could like download or that we could like or do you rate this as kind of towards the top and proceed as yeah, um there are some I think so Cleveland has these additional like pamphlets guides that extract the same information in their guidelines, but make it like a brochure of like, hey, I wonder if you want to replace their cut like your roof, this is why we're so important, these are the important things about materials and those important considerations, and it's a little bit more of like a user-friendly like handout.

Yeah, um and then hey, if you need more information, go to the telling the guidelines, and then that has a little bit more, but it has a bit more vernacular in it too, or maybe it's a little bit more approachable, but I can get those examples and and pass that all in the I I don't put any extra effort into it.

I don't put any extra effort into it.

I just didn't know if there was anything where you're like, I really wish we could like here's like two things from Cleveland that I really wish we could incorporate.

If you come across anything, I'd be very curious to we look at page 48 under a roof feature.

3.1.4 vinyl gutters.

I think we should have vinyl gutters are prohibited.

What do you think it sounds so like that there's a little just means you try your best, but we can't we can't get you.

Don't trip over that.

So we would just want to change it to vinyl gutters are prohibited due to poor durability and non-historics.

Yeah, vinyl gutters and leaders as well.

I mean, you don't want downspouse vinyl and I guess just search the final way, but I think that alternative, yeah.

Yeah.

And it seems to be throughout the whole book, actually, a lot of the use of the word feasible when feasible.

I think that like there's a lot of things, yeah.

That's a tough one.

When reparable, well, at what point something become non-reparable.

That is a helpful note.

That's been my pet view ever since it came out.

You know, it's and that's a tough stick point because it's like we want to be clean and clear and objective at the same time.

There also needs to be judgment and discernment rendered in these decisions.

And so if the language is absolutive, then we don't need a board, right?

Yeah.

And then on page 47 under roof features as well, Skylab.

Um, like avoid 3.1.31.

Just avoid skylights that read as roof windows of bubble skylights.

How about they're not permitted?

I mean, why if they're not visible, then you can maybe that we should uh introduce that condition, you know what I mean?

Well then you have to be if it's on the facade on the visible for the front.

Well, because it says avoid adding skylights to primary facade facade, yeah.

So it is okay, it's there already.

So like if you're gonna install uh a new skylight that's not there historically, which is the problem you're gonna do.

Dave, and you're 30 and like it just needs to not be visible.

Now that's what 3.1231 is.

Yeah, it says from public right away, and then 332 says um primary facade.

It's almost like you know, this is in code instead of should and shell.

You know, and and and we have more blurry should and shell in these guidelines.

Like we should make it more clear of no this is the firm rule versus debatable.

Yeah.

Do whatever you want.

And then page 45 roof features chimneys.

3.1.27.

Just avoid adding new stuff or cementation codings to historically exposed root basement.

I mean, that's just like flat out not permitted, right?

Right.

It's just stuck or somewhere just like the one above it, avoid shortening or removing chimneys.

Okay, so we should we just do like a replace all of your void and like well, I don't know.

There might be some that are okay.

I really don't want to know.

Definitely, I mean, in my opinion, those just change the word avoid to know.

What about avoid to not commit it?

Yes.26 and put two seven.

Yeah.

That's like a good task toward the end of this process to go through the whole book and just double send all of that's right.

Um sorry, you had other steps too.

You mentioned you had a bunch for this section where there are others that want to go.

Oh, I think I think that's one just mostly coming out.

Yeah.

The thing that I keep thinking about is that dormer that got installed in that blue and white house across from shoe across from the cemetery.

And that was just such a disaster, and I hate what's there.

I don't think that was uh but I'm thinking about what I'm thinking about is okay, they wanted to build a new dormer that didn't exist because they wanted to explain the property.

And I'm wondering if our new zoning code which allows additions here, you know, high capacity transit stations that for various reasons somehow usurps us maintaining respect.

Right.

So people are gonna start coming in asking for do we have to somehow allow guidance for what those new additions are in a new building, like in a new building.

Well the guidelines already covered our editions.

Yeah, like you wouldn't add it to the primary facade.

So I'll just unfortunately secondary facade.

But you have a part of zone that allows you to add like two stories if you're within wherever.

And uh and I just want to make sure that doesn't apply.

I wish I could do that.

Right.

That's what I'm because I definitely know this provision in there to expand density and square footage around high capacity transit.

And I know that there's high capacity transit is much internal as well as old fairgrounds.

And I just want to make sure that that inclusion and similar one don't somehow use herb these guys.

They do we need a very clear structure on how to work.

Yeah, those battles.

Kind of talks a little to that, I think.

And then the other thing I always think about is solar panels, but I think those are clearly covered, and I like sectional solar stuff.

We have not run into that nearly as often as we expected.

Remember through two years three years ago, we're like, we're about to get pummeled with these.

Yeah, thank god.

I tell everybody don't do it.

There's no resale in it.

Yeah, it takes you eight thousand years to get your all our.

Well, then we've we've actually run into this three times this year, just in our office where three cellars couldn't sell their house.

Because of it.

Because the solar panel that they were leasing from went bankrupt and they couldn't transfer the lease anywhere.

And they had to buy it out for like 18 grand.

Uh now how does this is way off topic, but once you put solar panels on there, how do you replace your roof?

You replace the roof, then put the solar panels back on.

Perfect.

I mean, I'm sure that's it's such a waste.

I'm sorry, putting off topic that I hate them.

Those solar panels would add a ton of durability to the sections that they're covering, but the sections that they're not become increasingly weak.

I mean, I just would be green the wolf, the the roof like the only time it's ever worked out is if you had a brand new roof put on at the same time as you were putting that solar panel and you were on a detached home and you own them outright.

It's the only time.

All right, okay.

Do you have anything else we need to address?

Are we good?

I wanted to uh add another small item to other business, which is that um I um just quit my job with the city, so I'm uh resigning from the hard board.

Um that's my last meeting with you guys, but um I'm glad that I got to be with you guys for this.

This was a really nice experience.

And uh also it's just nice to get to know you guys, and uh I'm amazed at how much um effort you all put into volunteering.

I can tell that you really care.

That's really nice.

And um if any of you would like to um join me for a beverage at a nearby establishment to provide closure for this relationship.

Um, I'm happy to do that this evening.

But um yeah, just hope for the best for the city.

I appreciate that.

And thank you for your contributions, the board.

Thank you.

Are you thinking are you so I got to talk about you before I do this?

And um what I'm doing is since my vote goes away, I'm gonna give my extra vote to one of you, so I'm selecting Patty.

So, heavy down.

All right, what's it worth?

Bring it a double vote for me.

That was not on me.

Um staying in the city or just leaving the city, but are you staying here?

Um, I don't live in Alentown.

Um, I live sort of nearby.

Um, and I'm not currently moving my house at all.

Okay.

See, you know, well, thank you.

Anything else for the good of the order?

No, I think there's not spring mailers.

Oh last this past Friday.

So all the version of the historic district.

So we do it every season.

So we're gonna do it in the spring, and we do it in the um fall winter time, just letting people know that they're in a historic district.

We give them masks and then we also included um the section or design guidelines um under benefits.

So it kind of gives you an idea of how maintaining your property can give you benefits.

Thank you.

Yeah, thank you, bro.

Um do we need to eventually prepare for another neighborhood wide door in the air that uh not have to start.

Okay, good.

Thank you.

Uh I appreciated that, but I don't want to do that every year.

I know you're talking about that trash pickup serving or whatever.

Oh, you're talking about the uh the uh volunteering for trash.

Yeah.

We'll get the hashtag now.

I have other comments on trash, but let's go off the record.

No.

Can I make the final motion to adjourn?

Sure.

I make a motion to return the hard meeting.

That's 742.

That's 742.

Thank you, everybody.