Okay, ladies and gentlemen, we call to order the meeting of the zoning hearing board for the city of Allentown for July 13th, 2026.

The board this evening consists of Samantha McLean to my right, Scott Unger to my left.

My name is Robert Kenauer.

We have four matters on the agenda for this evening.

And uh in just a moment, our secretary will call that list.

She'll ask if the appellant or applicant is present, whether represented by counsel, she'll ask if there are objectors, and we ask if so, objectors raise their hand so we can get a count.

She'll ask if there are interested persons not necessarily objectors, so we ask if they raise your hand so we can get a count.

Tabby.

Case number one, appeal of Lucas Selwa at 552 North Tim Street.

Is the appellant present?

Uh good afternoon.

I'm present.

Lucasella on behalf of Cremo's properties.

The appellant is present.

Are there any objectors to case number one?

No.

Are there any interested parties not necessarily objectors to case number one?

No.

Case number two, special use application of exchange 32 LLC for Robert Roberto Clemente Charter School at 2268 South Twelfth Street.

Is the appellant present?

Yes, represented by Arab Schott.

The appellant is present.

Are there any objectors to case number two?

No.

Are there any interested parties not necessarily objectors to case number two?

Uh yes, the uh Allentown School District, represented by Michael Kristoffko.

Interested party or objector?

Um for now interested party until we'll have some more.

One case number three, appeal of Umran Global Investment LLC at 90 South Ninth Street.

Is the appellant present?

Yes, represented by Eric Shah.

The appellant is present.

Are there any objectors to case number three?

No.

Are there any interested parties not necessarily objectors to case number three?

No.

Case number four, special use application of Hen Liveth, Calderon, Calcano at 725, 731, South John Street.

Is the appellant present?

Yes.

The appellant is present.

Are there any objectors to case number four?

No.

Are there any interested parties not necessarily objectors to case number four?

No.

Okay, Mr.

Shaw.

Okay.

Which one do you want to take first?

Whatever you want.

Okay.

We'll go in order then.

I'll hand out.

Some exhibits.

Okay.

Hopefully we'll put that statement.

Oh, this is the uh charter school.

Two is first.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

So I did hand the counsel for the school district copy of the exhibits, but I I would like to reserve the right to object to standing at some point on the basis of I think to be to oppose the application.

You would need to show that you have a property that is affected by that application.

I'm not sure what they're going to, what their interest is, but at that point I would I would reserve the right to say I object to standing because I'm not sure if there's a property that's affected, as opposed to a general question that you might let an audience member ask at some point without conferring them on on them standing to oppose the application or have the right to appeal uh any decision.

Okay.

Yep.

Okay.

So I'll call my first witness.

Or do you want to swear both witnesses at the same time?

Or okay.

If you could just state this player for some lesson.

Okay.

Alyssa, I have a face and the concern.

How do you spell Mark?

Yeah, just sort of tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.

Yeah.

Okay.

Could you state your name for the record, please?

Sure, Alyssa Mace.

Okay.

And um what what is your profession?

Um I'm an educator, I'm a school administrator.

Okay.

Can you briefly discuss your background in the educational field?

Sure.

Um in the state of Pennsylvania, I'm a certified teacher, a certified principal.

I have a bachelor's degree, a master's degree, and educational specialist degree in a variety of educational fields.

Um I've worked as a teacher and as a principal.

And um the applicant, and this is Exchange 32 LLC that owns the property you're interested in, correct?

Correct.

And um Roberto Clemente is looking to purchase that property, is that correct?

Correct.

And what is your relationship to uh Roberto Clemente Charter School?

Sure, I'm the chief executive officer of Roberto Clemente.

Okay.

And um how long have you been in that position or with the school and in that particular position?

Sure, I've been with the school 17 years, and this will be my sixth year in the CEO position.

And I take it then you are very familiar with the school's educational programs, their applic uh operations, facility needs, etc.

I am okay.

So can you just give us some background about the school and and we'll go from there?

But just start with a little bit of a history and what you do, and and then we can get to why you're looking to to to move to this location.

Sure.

Um, Roberto Clemente Charter School was the first charter school to open in the city of Allentown.

It is the oldest charter school in the city.

We've been renewed five times by the Allentown School District.

We're the only charter school that can proudly say that.

We were founded to address the Latino dropout model, or excuse me, the Latino dropout rate in the city of Allentown.

Um we opened in the year 2000 originally as a middle school.

Um we added one grade every year until we became grades six through twelve, and we operated as a secondary school for the first 14 years.

Then we added the elementary grades in 2014, and since then we've operated um K through 12.

We um are very proud of our graduation rate.

It averages around 95 percent.

Um, our daily average attendance rate is around 94 percent.

Um over the last three years, over 80 percent of our graduating class has been accepted to an institution of higher education.

Um, and we are looking to provide the best educational model to the students and families that select our school, um, and that includes our facilities as well.

Okay.

Um so there came a point when uh the school made a decision to pursue the acquisition of this property, correct?

Sure.

Okay.

Can you tell us where is your other facility and and what is there right now?

What what goes on at that location?

Yeah, so this uh project is specifically focused on our elementary school.

Our current elementary school is located at 850 North Fish Street.

Um it's about 22,000 square feet, so it's on the smaller side.

Um, and we knew that we needed more space to successfully educate our students to provide a more modernized facility to upgrade important systems within the school, whether that be um HVAC or just general square footage, um, or to improve our transportation systems as well.

Okay, and how large is this the is this building?

Um, so the the lot itself is 2.2 acres, and the building itself, the existing building on the lot is around 44,000 square feet, so almost double.

I was gonna say, so you're talking increasing by twofold if you move to this location.

Yes.

Okay.

And um how many students and staff members do you have now in each I guess category?

Uh sure.

So we have 300 students at our elementary campus, and we have about 35 to 40 staff members.

Okay.

Um we also operate a secondary campus that's on South 4th Street that has about 325 students and about 45 staff members, um, but this project does not impact that campus.

Right.

So you have two campuses, but the one is unrelated to this request, because this would be an actual move of the elementary school from the existing building.

To the new place, the relocation, right?

So that would no longer be the elementary school for the charters.

Right.

We would vacate the North Fish Street property.

All right.

And as you mentioned, uh the property's a little bit uh over two acres.

And um in the course of this, did you uh in investigating whether you could put a school there?

Did you come to learn that the property is in the um GX hyphen C zoning district under Allentown's current zoning ordinance?

Yes.

Okay.

And did you, through your counsel, make an application for a school use of the property?

Yes, we did.

And the response from the zoning office was you're permitted by special exception, is that correct?

Correct.

And and you you're here tonight.

And you came to learn that that means you need to go to the zoning board, correct?

Right.

Okay.

And um if you look in your packet, exhibit A2 is uh an aerial.

Oh, did I not leave one up there?

My bad.

If you look in the packet, that I'm handy.

Yes, thank you.

And uh that's an aerial.

Yes.

Okay.

I it sounds as if you've familiarized yourself with the property, correct?

Very much so.

Okay.

Um can you tell us uh on the aerial where where is it where is the property?

Um so the property is located on South 12th Street at the cross section of Sesklee of West Sesque Street.

Okay.

So it it's it's just below and to the right of the red balloon, I would call it, correct?

Yes.

Okay.

Can you tell us um what's the area like?

What are the uses that are nearby and what's the general character of the vicinity?

Sure.

So it's mixed use right now.

Um to the east of the school is residential homes.

Um to the south of the school is a daycare facility.

Um to the west of the school, um, it is manufacturing, um, industrial facilities.

Um, and to the north of the school, um, there is a roofing and solar panel business.

Okay.

And um your plan is simply the new elementary school here, correct?

Correct, to renovate the existing building.

Okay.

And um we'll talk about it a little bit more detail, but um you are proposing to use the site virtually as is.

Is that correct?

That is correct.

Okay.

Now you mentioned the area of the property, and there are some requirement three requirements actually that you and the other witness will talk about in the ordinance that are specific requirements for a school to be allowed by special exception.

Sure.

The first one is the lot needs to be 20,000 square feet.

Right.

Uh 20,000 square feet is a little bit under a a half an acre, correct?

Yes.

So this property is more than four times the minimum size, is that correct?

That is correct.

Okay.

Um so from an ordinance perspective, it's certainly large enough.

Just to from your personal opinion, having been to the property, um, can this accommodate the school that you're proposing?

100%.

We are thrilled with the size that this property offers, our elementary program.

Okay.

And can you give us some detail a little bit more detail of why you think this building and the property are a really good fit for the potential relocation of the elementary school?

Sure.

I mean, the size in itself is is a huge point of improvement from our current facility.

Um I'm like I like to call it our current facility is residentially landlocked.

Um we are um we've made the best use of what we can with our current facility, but this will just allow us to improve so much of our programming by the space.

So um you'll see in the aerial view, there's a very significant parking lot.

Um so that allows for off-street parking, it allows for safe parent drop-off and pickup.

It allows for buses to queue off of city streets.

Um so that's a huge improvement from what we have right now.

Um additionally, just the building itself, it's gonna allow for larger classrooms, it's gonna allow for more specialized learning spaces, it's gonna allow for larger hallways, it's gonna allow for safer transitions.

Um, it's gonna give us spaces that we can use for a variety of uses that we don't have right now in our current facility.

Okay.

And with regard to to those interior features, if you move forward with uh the project, you'll be fitting out and and having plans to redo the inside for the for that use, correct?

Correct.

Um for now though, the only change, and we'll talk about that plan as will the other witness, is to redo the parking lot in a in a manner to to provide the parking that you need, in fact, more than the parking, and and to do have the circle circulation that you'd like, is that correct?

Correct.

Okay, so um nowing that you haven't completely laid it out, but do you have a good idea of um the number of students and the number of staff that would potentially be in this building?

Right.

So at as of right now, we are anticipating approximately 370 students would occupy this space and approximately 50 staff members.

And what are the proposed hours of operation?

I mean, what when when will the building be used?

Uh the primary oper hours of operation are 7 30 in the morning to about 4 p.m.

in the afternoon.

Okay.

And are you going to have any non-school affiliated activities on a regular basis?

Are you are you subleasing part of the space or is someone using it in the off hours, or will this be dedicated to just the school?

It is dedicated to the school.

Um, even currently, we do not uh rent out our facilities for outside use.

Okay.

And we would not with this new facility either.

Okay.

Um let's talk about the the uh student arrivals and things of that sort.

Um do you uh you you you have a do you have a foundation for what you're going to talk about based upon the current operations?

I do.

Okay.

Um can you just tell us a little bit about this existing facility and then we'll talk about the the changes that this property allows.

Sure.

So like I mentioned, our current elementary facility is residentially landlocked.

Um we're on North Fifth Street between Cedar Street and Greenleaf Street.

Um arrival and dismissal, if you've ever been in the area around 8 to 8 30 or between 3 and 3 30, it's busy.

Um but we've been able to make it work and we've been successful in having our students arrive safely and have them picked up safely as well.

Um, however, our current site is limited, so we don't have several options for off-street uh pickup and drop-off.

We use our parking lot very creatively, we designate different exits for different grade levels.

Our parents are really supportive about uh finding you know a common location to meet up with their children every day that's still safe and on our block, um, but it has created some challenges.

Um, this new site, on the other hand, allows us to have an arrival and a dismissal that is off city streets, that is in this really large parking lot that is to the north of the building, but also to the west of the building.

It will allow us to queue parent pickup and drop-off, it will allow us to queue school buses, um, and because it is so large, we're able to queue, we anticipate a significant number of vehicles so that we're not clogging up South 12th Street, we're not congesting the area.

Um, and we're able to, we will be able to, you know, organize, better organize and systemize our arrival and and dismissal procedures.

Okay, and did you retain an engineering firm to prepare a plan that shows what you've just discussed?

We did.

And um is that exhibit A3 in the packet, and uh uh a uh member of that engineering firm will testify, correct?

Correct.

So is the plan just as background is the plan in A3 what you worked on with that engineering firm to reach the goal you wanted, which is uh as ideal of a circulation pattern for arrival and departure of students and staff as possible.

Correct.

How do students arrive at the school?

Currently, currently, and how will they hear?

Oh uh currently students arrive via bus, they arrive via parent pick or parent drop-off, excuse me, and they arrive by foot, they walk.

Um, and we anticipate similar patterns at the new site.

Okay.

And can you tell us about for the charter school?

How is bus transportation work?

Sure.

So students, if they qualify according to Pennsylvania school code, um, are provided transportation by their school district of residence.

Okay.

And um, where do students for this school come from?

via bus they arrive via parent pick or parent drop off excuse me and they arrive by foot they walk um and we anticipate similar patterns at the new site okay and can you tell us about for the charter school how is bus transportation work sure so students if they qualify according to Pennsylvania school code um are provided transportation by their school district of residence okay and um where do students for this school come from uh is it in various uh school districts um it is the majority though of our students are from the Allentown school district that is who our chartering agreement is with um however we do have students from a number of neighboring school districts um that are provided uh either bus transportation many of them are provided school vans um so we do receive students from local school districts um outside of the city as well okay and um based on what you've done in a probably more complicated situation and what you would have here um can you tell us like like what measures are there to make sure that that runs in a safe and efficient manner I mean is staff involved in getting people in and out in the mornings and afternoons oh absolutely teachers and staff are assigned duties so those include inside the building outside the building staff are positioned in the parking lot they are positioned in walkways they have two-way radios they are communicating with other staff members um something that I really enjoy about our school is our parent connections um and the familiarity that we have with parents and faces and with students and and you know what time they arrive even though it's a rolling arrival you can anticipate that a certain student's always going to be there at 805 while another family is always going to come at 820 and when you have the same staff positioned in the same places every day it's predictable it's consistent it's routine it makes these operations run smoothly it makes them um safer um and it allows parents to drop off in a really efficient manner or pick up okay and um in terms of the amount of parking the plan that you submitted as prepared by your firm I think shows um proposed 173 parking spaces yes um based upon I'm presuming no students drive correct not um and how many staff would be the maximum that you'd have here about about 50.

Okay so do you think from a practical standpoint and and the engineer can talk about what the ordinance would require that 173 spaces is more than sufficient for your use absolutely okay and you are proposing as the engine will say to meet the zoning ordinance requirement for what you would need correct yes okay um so as we have discussed special exception means that the use is permitted by special exception can you tell us is there anything about your proposed school that is atypical or extraordinary from what would be expected of a regular elementary school no there's not even though we're a charter school and you know there are differences between charter schools and and school districts we still operate in a very typical fashion when it comes to daily operations.

Can you think of any way that the school would present a public health or safety hazard to the community or and in particular the surrounding properties no I cannot okay you you don't do any you don't have any class anything unusual about what you teach or how you operate that would create any concern in that regard from a curriculum and instruction standpoint no again we operate pretty typically our our goal is to prepare students for college and higher education and that often you know presents pretty traditionally is there anything you do that would generate noise that is different than what one one would expect from an elementary school which I presume is the noise of people coming and arriving coming and leaving and uh potentially if students are outside for uh a recess and or on a playground uh nothing atypical no it's just the normal activities formal school noise yep and um is the vast majority of the activity at the site during those daytime hours that you mentioned right the the vast majority is during those daytime hours of course there will be you know uh periodic evening events such as parent teacher conferences or back to school night um but the majority of the use of the site is during regular business hours and would you say having parent teacher night and things of that sort in the evening is no different than many or most elementary schools it's very typical.

It is not.

Okay and why is that we're an elementary school we're not having nighttime athletic okay so you don't probably not have any outside events that you don't have a you're not putting in a lighted stadium for sports or anything of that sort of no okay um why do you think the school is appropriate for this area I mean what attracted you to it that you thought made a good location for this sure I'll reiterate the the size of the lot is really attractive to the school and I think it just opens up endless possibilities to better serve our students in our school community by providing a larger school building larger classrooms um which I've already you know mentioned to the to the hearing board this evening but it also allows us to provide a safer experience for our students in our current location um it it's busy it's busy um it's congested um and this this site allows us to remove our students from that congestion um and it allows us to to program for them in a site that is large enough that we will be well within the boundaries um of of what this property allows okay and um one of the general special exception criteria talk about uh having a negative impact upon an established residential neighborhood now you said this was mixed or or there is there a residential neighborhood in the vicinity there is yeah across the street there's there's a neighborhood okay yeah can you think of any adverse impact that you would have I I can't and and the fact that there's already a daycare operating you know adjacent to the school shows us a it's not the same type of use but it's very similar use and students are outside playing in that in those outdoor spaces and there are is parent drop off and and pick up for a daycare as well so there's similar use already established in that community.

And in this particular since that's a general right requirement for all special exceptions in this particular instance is would you say it is not uncommon for schools to be in neighborhoods that have residences nearby or even surrounding them for example current location is in a residential area our current secondary uh location is across from an apartment complex so schools exist in residential areas successfully and and the city of Allentown has many schools that are smack dab in the middle of residential areas correct yes based on everything you said can you can you envision any adverse impact if the school were allowed to operate as you described it at this location I cannot know.

Okay.

It's all the questions I have for this witness ordering questions you mentioned your current students um are driven take the bus walk and you expect a similar mix with this new location um while there are residences nearby they're much fewer um but for um the walkers um I'm sure the engineer whoever's gonna talk to us about the the flow on site but just for the entry points at sesqui street west um and then the other driveway are you planning to have staff like located there for safe crossings or staff and crossing guards we contract with um a national crossing guard company um that would provide services to this location as well awesome things that's all I have no more questions okay thank you thank you uh I have some questions do you want to wait till the end I I I can I mean with the witness here I just thought it'd be uh more convenient for me to ask them while she was here but I can wait for questions I get I guess then what what I would say if they're gonna ask questions of the witnesses I'd like to know to what property there the because I don't know what questions are going to ask but but to me this is a zoning hearing correct I mean for example there's there shouldn't be questions relating to just the operations of the school district and the charter school it should be we have a facility or a property nearby that is impacted if you put the school here so at this point I'm okay but I think I want to constrain what the questions are in that regard.

So if we want to vet that now as to what these are going to be we might as well get it out of the way.

They're the ones that that grant the charter allowed to be in existence.

Most of the students that attend there reside within the city of Allentown and the school district has a transportation obligation for those students uh in addition to an obligation to monitor the uh the safe and effective operation of the uh of the school and their facilities.

Uh so as such, I I believe that we easily meet the standard for standing under the uh municipalities planning code for uh an interested party uh to uh um enter their appearance in a zoning matter and and ask questions and possibly object, depending upon what the answers are that we get.

And I and I would still disagree.

I mean, they do those in a different capacity.

As he indicated, there's a state law that obligates them to monitor the school and to provide the transportation.

That's to me that's separate and apart from zoning.

It's it's no I would liken this to an instance where a sheets comes in and wants to object to the royal forms on the basis of things that are not related to actually impacting their property.

Not an exact example, but that's where you see that thing moves where someone says, I have an interest, it really doesn't affect my property, but I have other interests like competition or in this case the the school district busing and monitoring of the charter school, which I think is regulated by a different authority.

It's my opinion.

I so understand the point.

The nature of your questions or what?

It doesn't affect any real estate of the city, a school district, does it?

The this particular site doesn't affect any real estate owned by the um Allentown School District, that's true, but the whether this special exception is granted or not will have a definite impact on the Allentown School District, and and I believe that that's more than sufficient to meet the standard.

So there's already an elementary school that the Allentown School District monitors, let's say, and what they're doing is moving it.

So isn't that about the extent of they're putting it in a different facility in a different location with a different layout and everything else?

And it doesn't affect any property of the school district.

It it would it would not affect the school district's physical facilities, that's correct.

Um the only impact it would have is on the uh the school district's uh obligations with respect to transportation, um and the school district certainly has an interest in whether this is an appropriate facility for uh school purposes.

Do your questions expect to establish that there will be a significant traffic safety hazard created by this?

Yeah, that's that's our primary concern here.

All right, let's go ahead.

Uh uh thank you.

Um let me go back.

Um sorry, you say name Miss Mays?

Mace.

Yeah, Mace.

Um you had indicated that there were a number of different school districts that send uh students to the uh to the charter school, correct?

Correct.

And you didn't indicate though how many buses uh are received at the charter school per day.

Um per day, it's a mix of traditional yellow buses, but also vans currently at our elementary school, and this is my from the best of my knowledge, if you will, we receive yellow uh three yellow school buses, um, two of which come from the Allentown School District, one of which comes from the Bethlehem Area School District, and then we also receive vans from the Catasauqua Area School District, the Whitehall Copley School District, Salisbury Township School District, East Penn School District, previously Parkland School District, Northampton School District, East End School District.

So the the uh chart that we looked at that showed the traffic uh layout around the school.

Yeah, there was uh one loop for parent drop-off and one loop for bus drop-off.

Right.

So where do the vans go?

The vans would go with the buses to the west of the building.

Um I will say that school district transportation, um they do not all arrive at the same time.

We have a 30-minute rolling arrival in the morning.

Um so, like I had uh explained with parents, school districts are very similar.

You know that ASD is always gonna drop off at 825, but uh we've had Socken Valley before, they're waiting for the doors to open at 8:30.

So it's a rolling arrival at dismissal time.

Um they do stack a little bit more around the same parameters, but that's where those staff that are outside come into play and they're radioing and they say Caddy's outside, Sauken Valley's outside, and we're getting those students out as quickly as possible.

So with this uh building being located in in a different physical location than the other building, will that impact which districts now have uh obligations to transport students?

Uh depending on a student's address, I'm sure it will.

Because you had indicated that there were only 300 students at the current school, and you're anticipating 370 for this school.

Right.

So, where do you anticipate they're going to be coming from and how are they going to get there?

Um, like I had mentioned previously as well, the majority of our students are Allentown City students, right?

They reside within the school district.

Um, so it will be dependent upon their address of record, and if they are 1.5 or more miles from this new address, that will determine if they qualify for a bus or not.

Those additional 70 students that I'm referencing is the intent is to bring our sixth grade class along to this new building and to have a K through six elementary campus.

So that's where those additional students are coming from.

So it would be the same number of K through five, but then the addition of another grade, which adds the extra 70 students.

Right, and those students would be removed from our secondary campus, it would not be a redundant sixth grade at both locations.

And and have you looked at whether adding that additional grade will also require uh additional or different van runs or bus runs uh coming up.

We haven't, we're not looking to occupy well, I'm sorry, just these technicians.

I'm sorry, so I didn't get the last one.

So I I said uh have you looked at whether adding those additional 70 students is going to add additional van runs or bus runs that are going to be necessary for the school.

Um we have not done any formal op uh former formal exercises related to the matter that you're addressing right now.

We're not looking to if we are granted this special exemption tonight, we are not looking to occupy this building until the 28-29 school year, two years from now.

Um, it requires significant renovation.

Um we you know need to ensure that we have all the proper permitting and everything that goes along with with renovating a very large space.

Um, also being located in the city is we do have a transient student population, so to run those exercises now, we could potentially come up with an idea of what transportation may or may not look like, but it's very likely it's going to change before we occupy that building.

Um to answer your questions about additional transportation, I don't anticipate there being more transportation because those students would go on the existing buses and vans that are already coming and servicing our school.

The have you looked at whether I guess what I was attempting to ask, and maybe I didn't do it artfully enough, is have you looked at whether this location is now going to put the school within 10 miles of a dip of an additional school district to thus trigger a new transportation obligation?

Yeah, because I think this illustrates my point from before, which is based on this line of questioning, then we should have seven or eight other school districts in here asking the same thing, whether they would have the bus when the end when, as was stated by council, there's an obligation to provide busing when you're a school district in which that student resides.

I I can respond to that.

I I'm just trying to nail down how thoroughly the the transportation plan has been worked out.

As I indicated before, the main concerns here relate to transportation and specifically the backup of uh buses and vans that are gonna occur that can't make it on the property based upon the flow that's been that's been presented here.

Okay.

And so that's why that I'm trying to get a handle of how how far the school has actually looked into what's gonna be coming to the school as far as students are concerned, given this location.

Have you done any have you done a similar investigation of their current location?

I wasn't involved in the current location as the school's just been there for quite a while, so I don't know whether any investigation was done when when that initial uh school are you generally aware of its current location?

I'm generally aware of where it's currently located.

Whoever driven past it during I've never driven past it during uh dismissal or pickup, but but I do know where it's located.

Uh but I don't know whether there was any um uh due diligence done with respect to traffic at the time it was put in that in that current location.

Uh I'm just here dealing with the current application that's presented before us.

Well, I understand that, but I'm asking you a question about the existing scroll because I mean I'm not a traffic engineer, I've worked for engineering companies in the past.

It's hard for me to contemplate how its current configuration.

Let me rephrase we'll hear from the engineer about this, but it's hard for me to contemplate how the new location, which is substantially larger, which will be doing all of the transportation and stacking off-city streets.

It's hard for me to contemplate how that wouldn't be a hundred percent less bad than what it is at the current location.

Um the statement you just made that it'll do 100% of stacking off-city streets.

I don't believe that that's accurate based on the plan that we've seen.

Right.

And then I can, you know, I think when the engineer gets up, I can ask some more questions about that.

But uh I'm just trying to first with this witness who has a knowledge of what the transportation needs are going to be to try to get a sense of as to how well that's been thought out.

I think she answered your question, didn't she?

Um she said she hadn't looked into it, doesn't it?

She answered your question.

And I'm asking a different question, which is even if it for some reason she's mistaken in 100% of it is not off public streets, it's a hundred percent on public streets now.

It's it's in a different location now.

It's a hundred percent on public streets now.

I I how how is it likely that that is a the proposed situation is more of a public safety hazard than the current location, which has never been a problem.

I don't believe that that's the test is is whether it's zoning it is well.

I I think the test is whether this situation presents a traffic hazard, not whether this situation's traffic hazards are less than traffic hazards that may exist elsewhere.

No, no, at the location that's gonna be replaced by this.

So you're suggesting that even if the traffic situation at the new location is not a hundred percent to your satisfaction, if that's the case, we should leave it in its less ideal location.

The two are related.

We're we're moving one to the other.

This is not a new school, it's moving a school within the city.

I'm I'm having a hard time understanding your concern.

I I I heard that the the testimony that that the intent was to move the old school to this location, however, this is a request to turn this location into a school.

It it's it's it's not conditioned on them closing the other facility.

That that that so that other facility could turn back into another school by somebody else.

So this request deals solely with this location, turning it into a school, and whether turning this location into a school creates any hazards.

Okay, you asked a question of her, she's answered it.

I think we're done with that, all right.

Now, um, with respect to the the uh three yellow buses that you that you uh stated, um with respect to dismissal, all students get dismissed at the same time, correct?

Uh we start with school district transportation and vans first.

Um those students are called in order of which those buses arrive.

Umce those buses and those vans have successfully vacated.

Well, this our current location, right?

Um it would be similar in the new site, however, we would be able to have simultaneous bus and parent pickup at the same time because of the size.

I mean, two acres in the city is fantastic.

Um make sure that the buses and the vans are vacated from the property prior to parent pickup.

Um, in the new site, we would start with those buses first.

You know, we know that school district transportation is based on routing systems, and it's important that they you know are on time as much as possible, and the school plays a big role in in supporting that.

So I I I guess um what I'm trying to say is you don't have any control over when the buses or vans show up from the school districts, correct?

We collaborate with the school districts and we give them a window in which they can arrive.

And we have had collaborative discussions with school districts in the past saying, hey, you're showing up five minutes early.

Can you please come a little bit later?

Um, or you're showing up 20 minutes after you're supposed to be here, um, and it's making us pause parent pickup because now we have to stage your bus.

Um, so can we control it fully?

But we can't control anything fully, it's a school.

Okay, I don't have any additional questions.

Thank you.

Any questions of this witness as a result of those questions?

No.

Okay.

I'll just I just have a quick follow-up based on that, which is um in line with one of the board members' questions.

And and you did mention this, but there is no off-street uh locations for the buses at the current location.

Is that correct?

That is correct.

Okay, so this is if you were able to get 75 percent of the buses on the lot here, that would be a massive increase and improvement over the current location, correct?

Absolutely.

And I think you mentioned it, you are moving this school, correct?

So as far as you your application, it is to take your school from the current location and move it to this location.

Correct.

So it is relevant that you are improving.

Yes.

Okay.

That's all the questions I have for this witness.

Okay, thank you.

Oh, it's Mark.

We're still on that case.

It's my witness for my next case.

Is anxious to get up there.

No.

I'm sorry.

I thought I remembered saying that I was like, all right, hey, have a fun at it.

I'll go home.

I got some grass to cut.

He may be familiar with the property.

I don't know that, but ready?

State your name and spell it for that.

It's uh Mark M-A-R-K.

Last name is Buckwalt, uh B as and boy, UCH via Zinvictor, ALT.

And you were sworn in before, correct?

Okay.

Um can you give us a a relevant background as to your professional qualifications in engineering and also your familiarity with uh the city of Allentown?

Sure.

Um, I've been a professional engineer since 2002.

Um I've worked on numerous school projects uh in eastern Pennsylvania.

We have a handful of architects where we do a lot of schools.

In fact, probably in the last like five years, that might have been the line share of the the work we did, you know, in addition to some other projects.

Um I've done multiple projects in the city of Allentown.

I actually used to live in this city for almost about uh 20 years and was the vice chair of the planning commission for about 15 years.

Okay.

And um you've testified as an expert before in in matters such as this.

I would ask that he be qualified as an expert in civil engineering.

So qualified.

Okay.

Um the property and the surrounding area at this location.

Yes.

Okay.

And are I guess for what we time is?

Are you familiar with in in your discussions and personal knowledge uh the existing arrangements for the school at its current location?

Uh generally I I focused a bit more on the new school.

Right.

Okay.

But you were aware that that it was going to be a layout for buses that didn't occur at that first school, correct?

Yes.

Um an engineering perspective, you you you you you had a limited task in in in this matter, correct?

Correct.

Um I think as was mentioned, all that's proposed is to fit out the building and to redo the parking lot, is that correct?

Yeah, some mill and overlay repaving were necessary.

And mill and overlay or repaving um as necessary, um, probably some sidewalk improvements around the building and uh a restriping.

Okay.

And um I mentioned the there were three specific criteria, and I think the first witness touched on two of them with regard to the um the the school and and also i in her testimony talked about that second one, but I want to talk about it with you from an engineering perspective.

Um the criteria is that in any zones in which special exception approval is required, in this case for a school, any generally applicable off-street parking requirements may be increased.

If in the judgment of the zoning hearing board, uh, based on consideration of unavailability of public transportation, distance for centers or populations, or a relatively high percentage of students driving cars, that is necessary.

So let's first talk about the parking requirement.

Does it the plan um that you prepare?

Is that exhibit A3?

Yes.

Okay.

Does that show the parking calculation that is required for this school?

It does.

It lists the number of uh employees with uh some additional parking required for visitors, and the the requirement is 27.

And the current parking lot can uh have 173 parking spaces.

Okay.

So um based upon the city's requirement, there's a lot of extra space out there, correct?

Um second part though, was as part of that, you were asked to lay out what the first witness talked about, a configuration for uh the student drop-off via the parents, the vans, the buses, et cetera.

Can you walk us through what your plan shows, and then we'll talk about why you did that and what you think of the layout?

Yeah, sure.

So one of the things that we always try to do with school projects, whether something small like this or even you know more substantial projects is to the extent you can to segregate the parent pickup and drop-off from the buses.

So we've we've utilized two different entry points and two different circulation patterns to sort of segregate the buses and the in the parents.

So that you have this bus loop that comes in.

Sorry, it's not labeled on my plan.

There's a call to sec there, and I don't know the name of that street.

Apologize.

Might be on this plan here.

Sesque street.

So using that call de sac to come in and a counterclockwise arrangement, obviously, so that you know, when they pull up to the front, the doors are facing the school and and come in and around and out uh to Sesque Street.

And then for the parent pickup and drop-off using the parking lot entrance, and again running in a um in a circulation where they would go north along in through the parking lot, and then I guess that would be west and then south.

Okay.

And that that loop is roughly about uh you know 600 feet.

Okay, and and um based upon your discussions with um the applicant on what they needed and what you were doing on this lot, are you comfortable that you've uh provided a um sound engineering layout for that drop-off?

Yeah, we've we've we've I think based on the the conditions that we have to work with with the site, um we've we've provided a responsible layout for both the bus and the parent pickup and drop off, which which also is as Alyssa noted, um it's not just a free for all for all, there are multiple staff out there, just like I remember when my kids are getting picked up and dropped off when I used to take them to elementary school, you know, um managing it as well.

Okay.

And do you believe, irrespective of whether this is a hundred percent on the lot, seventy-five percent of the that it's better than a current condition, which would have all of this occurring on on the streets surrounding a school?

That's correct.

Okay, where you know a large large majority will be able to be captured on site.

Okay.

Um and with regard to then just a a few of the general criteria that are in the ordinance, you're familiar with the the uh Allentown's comprehensive plan, presume, based upon your your your work for the different hats that I've worn and different hats that you've worn.

Are you aware of any conflict that putting a school at this location would have with that comp plan?

No, and especially based on the virtue, I mean if if it were a conflict, it would be it would be not permitted.

Limited by special exception with some very limited um additional criteria, which we adequately meet.

Okay, so typically when a zoning ordinance allows something, a use, um, there's been a decision that is consistent with what they want, correct?

And the city, you know, obviously encourages um you know educational uses and need to serve the residents.

Okay, and there's another general criteria about meeting the dimensional requirements in the ordinance.

None of the dimensional requirements are changing here other than what you're doing in the parking lot, is correct.

And you are meeting the only thing that is changing, which is providing more than adequate parking areas based upon the ordinance requirements.

Is that correct?

Okay.

Um another general criteria is that we'll that will not result in land use and will result in land use and development generally consistent with and not detrimental to the surrounding area.

Again, the building is there, correct?

Correct.

The lot is already developed.

That's correct.

Um you're not even making changes to the area that is developed, is that correct?

It's simply the layout of the school district of the school parking lot, correct?

Correct.

Can you conceive of that in any way being inconsistent with what's out there?

No, no.

I I mean again, um it's it's a mixed mixed-use district.

We're meeting the requirements for the special exception.

Um, and you know, the the fact that it used to be general office, I think a school, in my opinion, is isn't least intrusive to it to office.

Um and are you comfortable that based upon the land you had to work with and the information that the applicant provided that you have with your layout attempted to ensure that there's not traffic hazards and congestions off-site to the best possible by doing all the loading and unloading on site.

Yes, that's correct.

And oh go ahead.

In fact, there's you know, this this parking lot is very large.

We use the outer um circulation pattern.

Uh majority of the teachers can park in front of the school.

Uh majority of the teachers can park in front of the school, so even if they needed to sort of make another switch back in there to even you know enhance the length they have for queuing, there's there's opportunities there as well.

Okay, so for example, if you removed since you've got let's see, how many spaces did you say were required?

Uh there's 50 required for visitors and and uh teachers, so we have almost 41 just in front.

Okay, so even if we just blocked off a handful more stall just for the morning pickup and drop off, right?

You could even make this path longer if it presented an issue, but I believe what's there.

So you think it's sufficient, but you have room to enhance that stacking area if you found out you need a little more space, and you'd still have more than enough parking required as per the applicant, and more than enough than what the ordinance requires.

Is that correct?

Right.

Okay, it's all the questions I have for this witness.

Board have any questions?

No, none.

Okay.

Board has none.

Mr.

Kristabko, you have some, just a few, thank you.

Um, Mr.

Buckwalt, if you could take a look at uh the document that's A3, the second page.

Um, it it shows the path for for buses.

And as I understand the path, the the bus comes down, was it sesque street?

That I said it, sesque street, makes a right into the into the uh facility where the building is, stops in front of the door, lets off kids, circles around the parking lot, and then back out the same entrance that came in, correct?

Correct.

Okay.

Now given the size of a bus, and and looking at the scale on on your drawing, it appears that only two buses could fit in front of the building at any one time, correct?

Yes.

Okay.

So if there were a third bus, that would have to be waiting out on Sesque Street, correct?

Just for the just for the moment that both buses would be there and dropping off kids.

Okay.

But there's but you know, that would be for the for the drop-off, correct?

So as long as it takes to unload a uh a bus load of kids or to to load a bus load of kids, uh, would be and and the bus that's on Sesque Street would have to wait for that bus that was in front to finish, for example, if it was in dismissal to finish loading all the kids, drive the whole way around the parking lot and then go out because it it's using the exact same entrance that the buses use to get in, correct?

I'm sorry, could you repeat that question?

Sure.

So if there was a bus out on Seswee, the third bus out on Susque Street, it would have to wait for a bus to completely load, drive around and pull out before it pulled in.

No, because as that bus was making its way around, it could pause or wait for that other bus to get in.

Again, it's managed, right?

This isn't just uh showing up at you know the mall and everybody's has free for all there's there's there's you know staff managing it.

And so so that's the three buses, and there's also all the vans that were discussed that would also be queuing up in the same line, correct?

Yeah, but there's there's even the option for the school.

I mean, you could even allow buses to completely circulate around and get more as long as when those students were were left off the bus, they were shepherded into the school, right?

So you could almost use that full loop if needed.

So were were you told not to put a second uh a second cut into Sesque Street?

No, I wasn't.

Was that was that a decision that you made and thought would be best?

There's there's an existing entrance there.

Um, I I think it's it's adequate if there was a determination that that cut needed to be wider, it could be done.

I don't think that there's any reason it couldn't be, but again, um when we you know you have three three potential buses and it's managed, you know, just waiting just for a little bit for another vehicle to get in or out is not uncommon.

Now is that there's parking on Sesque Street, correct?

I don't know the answer to that question.

Okay.

Um the business of right across is a daycare, correct?

Yes, and and at the end of the cul-de-sac, there's a um uh a big building that uh has uh truck bays and doors.

Do you know if that's currently in in operation?

No, I don't.

Okay.

With respect to to the entrance and exit, if if a second cut were put in here, the buses wouldn't be in conflict with each other when they were coming in and going out, correct?

That would be correct.

I think it would be potential to just widen if needed, you could widen that cut.

Okay, okay.

I don't have any other questions.

Okay, Dr.

Have uh 30 seconds.

Okay.

Um I would rest and move for the admission of the exhibits.

Okay, they are admitted.

There's a one through a three with two page.

All right.

Okay, thank you.

Uh board ready for discussions.

Yeah, use it out.

All right, we have a special exception use application.

It is go ahead.

Yeah, so um as we know with the special exception, um, you know, we it's a permitted use by special exception, so unless we hear that one of the criteria listed isn't met, um, then we approve it.

And I didn't hear anything today that would lead me to believe that this use would uh result in significant traffic safety hazard, that the use would uh create a significant public health or safety hazard, that it would cause substantial negative impacts upon the established residential neighborhood, um, or that it doesn't comply with the applicable use specific standards.

Um so with that I would move to um approve the special exception before we move any forward or move any further forward.

Um is this was just so we understand this before we deliberate.

Is the school district still an interested party, or is the school district determined it's an objector.

The uh the school district isn't interposing an objection uh at this time.

We're still just an interested party based on the concerns that we raised about the the flow of traffic, and you know, hope that the board takes that under consideration.

All right, um, yeah, I would tend to agree that uh again we have a a use permitted by special exception.

Um three additional criteria, the lot size is is easily met.

Um this is a an age group where the students don't drive, so I think we don't have that complexity of determining or trying to guess how many students are gonna bring your own car, and there's no athletic facility proposed, so that the supplemental use regulations I think are easily met uh relative to the school district's concerns about um off-street parking and loading.

Um, for zoning, uh it does matter to us when there's a relocation of something that um from one location in the city to another, and no, we can't control necessarily what goes into the previous space, but from this particular use, um it's entirely off-street.

And if if by chance all three buses are there, you know, maybe there's one bus that's on street, but now all the buses are on the street.

And I think that's not entirely uncommon in urban schools of any time kind to have buses and vans and parents' cars in public rights away.

So even if that were the case, I don't know that that in and of itself creates a traffic safety hazard uh to the public, but in this case, the vast majority of it can be handled off-street, which I think is a typical um for urban schools in particular.

Um so I I'm not particularly compelled that I've heard any evidence to counter the the traffic engineers or the engineers' position that you know this is a safe and appropriate um drop-off scenario.

They they do a tremendous amount of school work.

Um so for all those reasons I would I would agree with uh your your position.

And I think Samantha made a motion, didn't you?

Yeah, motion for approval.

Correct.

Do you want to second that?

All in favor.

I all right, Mr.

Shock.

Thank you.

Which one's next, Aaron?

Uh Umran is next.

Uh which one?

Uh Umran.

Which number is that on the number three.

Number three, okay.

Perfect, thank you.

Okay.

All right.

Three.

Four.

Five.

Mine.

This time too.

Sorry.

They were informing it.

Yeah, they were they weren't.

Both of you will get sworn in right now.

Yeah.

So if you can state and sell your first and last name, please.

Michael Houston, M-I-C-H-A-E-L.

H-O-U-S-T-E-N.

Oh, okay.

I don't think oh no.

What?

Yeah.

Why was that file for that?

You are now up.

I'm going to swear to hold their own.

Oh, no, you didn't.

Well, no, because then you were talking, so people both read your right hand, first.

You swear to tell the truth and nothing about the shoes on how you got to I do.

Thank you.

Right?

Yes.

Okay.

Uh state your name, please.

Okay.

And um how are you affiliated with the applicant in this instance, Umran Global Investment LLC?

I'm the owner.

You're the owner.

Okay.

And um are you familiar with the property that's the subject of the application?

Yes, sir.

Okay.

And um exhibit A one should be a deed into the uh Umran entity.

Is that correct?

That's correct.

And that's dated December 6th of 2023.

That's correct.

Okay.

So um did your entity purchase the property and it now owns it, correct?

Yes.

Okay.

Um what was on the property when you purchased it?

Um nothing empty lot.

Empty lot, okay.

And your purchase was that in part based upon the status of an ongoing project that's proposed for the site.

Yes, that is correct.

That is one of the attraction part attracting part for us.

One of the attracting parts that we purchased the project attractive.

Yeah.

So um while it was a vacant lot, there had been a lot of work done to propose a building at that site.

Is that correct?

That's correct.

Okay.

Now you purchased it knowing that there was some work to be done to finish that approval, correct?

Yes, correct.

Um do you plan to use the property for the use that has been proposed and was in the process in the approval process when you bought it.

Oh, yes, mixed units.

Yeah, and and what is that?

What what what has been proposed there for quite some time?

Um when we decide to purchase um it was seventy percent office and 30 percent residential units.

Okay, uh we converted that to uh 70 percent residential and the rest for the uh office and the retail and you know uh commercial use.

Okay, so after you acquire it, you've continued with the process, and um the signific the the potentially significant change you made was the the mixture of uh non-residential and residential, is that correct?

Exactly.

Had there been significant work done on laying out the building that is proposed for the site.

That's correct.

Okay, and with regard to the building itself, you are you using what has been in the approval process for some time.

That's correct.

So so you you're changing the potential uses inside, but you want to build the building that has been before uh the city's planning commission for some time.

Is that correct?

Yes.

Okay.

Um this is a uh a down, we'll call it a downtown Allentown location, not too far from from where we are today.

Is that correct?

Yes.

Okay, what made this attractive to you?

What why did you want to do this project?

Uh it was well worked project, basically.

Worked.

I mean, uh is well projected.

Uh uh you know, that is been going on around for 10 years, maybe before purchase.

And the previous owner input some uh really good uh design and you know some some uh I would say like you know, um some work like um um getting the uh necessary development I mean he addressed the uh uh uh comments that came from the Planning Commission rightly and the and he really worked well on it.

And we just so that we keep when we purchase it, we can you know take it further and finish it, finished it uh uh uh past the finish line, and you know uh make a nice um building for the neighborhoods and uh that's all I can say.

Okay, so so in other words, um you you you you you looked into what had been done.

Um you liked what the prior ownerslash developer had been doing, correct?

Yes.

Um do you agree I uh do you think this will be uh you know a focal point in the city?

Uh this is a big project, correct?

I think so.

This is gonna be creating less of um um jobs and uh it's gonna be creating less of uh actually for Allen Town altogether.

The last for Allentown time.

Yeah, for intention around time.

And the deficiency is a site triangle.

Just the site triangle.

Let's talk about that.

All right, go ahead.

Um one last question, which is you've continued in the process and you and you you in one of the recent review letters it was determined there was a site triangle issue, correct?

That's correct.

Okay.

In working with our next witness, um you realize you'd have to change the footprint if you did not get this relief, correct?

Yes.

Is that significantly detrimental to the project?

Yes, because um we need to keep uh the current design that we made.

Uh it is um it is a it's essential for uh for uh safe dance structural requirements.

The the corner part is uh acting as the main one of the main pillar of the building uh and the and the you know holding the weight off the building actually, and the um also keeping it stable against the high winds.

So um the land is itself is not big.

So uh, you know, uh we doubt that it's not gonna be stable and uh feasible.

Okay, so we're gonna go into land feasible.

Uh yeah.

Okay, stayable.

Okay.

So uh in what uh that's why you've requested the relief, correct?

That's correct, yes.

Okay, that's all the questions I have for this witness.

Any questions, Sam?

No, okay.

No questions from the board you said down there.

Okay, can you state your name?

Michael Houston.

Okay.

I think I I I numbered out of order, but exhibit A3 is your curriculum vitae, is that correct?

It is.

Can you provide some background uh in uh your professional qualifications?

I have been a licensed land surveyor for well since 2008.

Um I've been a member of Arthur A.

Sualo Associates for 13 years.

I've been an owner in part since 2017, and I've been the sole owner since 2021.

Okay.

And um has your firm worked on this project for uh a significant time?

Yes, approximately 10 years.

Um art swallow, the predecessing owner started it with um Bruce Locke was the previous owner and developer.

I was involved in it partially, and then as art started to near retirement, our roles changed, and I took on more responsibility and ultimately contracted with Eric and Umron to follow it through to completion.

Okay.

And have you testified as an expert before in in uh land use matters such as this?

Yes, I have I have testified in Carbon County Court a couple times, and I've also been in front of zoning hearing boards uh half a dozen or eight times.

Okay.

I would ask the be qualified as an expert in land surveying.

Uh he's uh admitted as such.

Okay.

Um exhibit A2 is an aerial.

Can you just generally tell us who it was mentioned this is a vacant lot.

Where is it located and what's the key the area like the lot, the vacant lot is at the northwest corner of South Ninth Street and Walnut Street?

It is approximately, I think it's 55 by 80 or so.

Um it's just an open grassy lot at this time.

It's next to let me let me start over.

It is immediately east of a recent development and immediately east of an existing parking deck owned by pretty sure the city of Allentown.

Okay.

And can you tell the board um is A4 the plan uh for the building proposed at the property?

Yes.

This looks like a version of the current plan that we are working on to gain approval through the Allentown City Planning Commission.

Okay.

And that's that was prepared by your firm, correct?

Yes, this was prepared by me.

And you've been before the planning commission on several occasions?

Yes, two or three times currently under Umran, and I'm gonna guess two or three, maybe four times under the previous developer.

Okay.

And the latest comment letter, uh large part of the project has been has progressed to the point where it's um uh close to being uh in a state where it could be approved, correct?

Yes.

I mean, in my professional opinion, I would probably say we are 92 to 95 percent complete, barring uh this zoning approval and some architectural amenities that need to be ironed out with uh with the fact that we're in the TNDO uh zoning district.

Okay, so give a little bit more detail as to what is actually being proposed to be put on that lot.

What is your plan show?

So the plan shows uh a proposed 37 floor or story building.

Um I have to read off the notes because I don't know the exact numbers.

Um approximately 208 apartment units.

Uh we have reserved about eight years ago.

The previous developer reserved um 253 off-street parking spaces in the adjoining deck to the west of this structure.

Uh beyond that structure, we are proposing some small curb lay buys along South Ninth and also Walnut Street.

We are also proposing, I guess you could call it an expansion or a widening of the sidewalk specifically at the intersection of 9th and Walnut.

Uh one of the city comments was to basically slim down the traffic on South Ninth Street from a from a two lanes with a shoulder.

They asked us to essentially remove the shoulder, create wider sidewalks right at the corner, improve um improve sidewalk and ADA facilities, uh widen the intersection a little bit, remove move stop bars further away, all for public safety.

Uh that's you know, some landscaping, that's the general gist of the plan.

And um does the plan on page two show the area that's the site triangle in question?

Yes, it does.

Okay.

And is that marked and labeled site triangle and kind of cross-hatched, I guess.

Yes, there's a hatching across it.

It's a small triangle at the southeast corner of the structure.

Okay.

And um, does that location of the building, and we'll explain why, in your opinion, restrict site visibility in any way based upon the location of the property and the adjoining streets?

No, it it actually, I mean, with the improvements that we've been required to make to the curbing and the sidewalks, site distance and site lines at that intersection are vastly improved with at the suggestion of the planning commission.

Okay.

And um, so let's walk through the conditions kind of on the ground that in your opinion make it not necessary to leave that corner unobstructed.

So you indicated this is a corner property, correct?

Correct.

Okay.

Is there a signal at the intersection of 9th and walnut?

Yes.

The intersection of South Ninth Street and Walnut Street is a signalized intersection.

And South 9th is a one-way street heading south, and walnut is a one-way street heading east.

Okay.

Um why don't we take one copy of this exhibit?

And if you can, and I'll put this in that as a five.

This is A five.

Uh it's a four, but I'm gonna have it right on one.

And so then that's a five, quickly or more.

So where is this what is the signalized interstation there?

You want to just label that and now uh can you mark the one-way streets as you indicated they are and is the this project is under the the old not the new zoning ordinance, is that correct?

Correct.

Okay.

So um I'll hand you this is just the zoning ordinance section that we're here on some 660-37.

Um if I look at 660-37, there is a section that says on Hamilton Street between 6th and 10th, this site triangle doesn't apply, correct?

If if that's what the zoning ordinance says, so so there are instances where there are buildings on the corner like this in the city, and that's allowed under the old ordinance on the 6th to 10th.

Yes, to my knowledge, there are exceptions that are that are granted within the city within their own ordinance, depending on where it's located.

Can you explain to us then based upon the signalized intersection and the one-way streets why this does not present an impediment to any necessary site line?

So, as I mentioned earlier, I mean, considering the one-way motions of these two streets, the signal that will should safely stop traffic, the improvements that we've been asked to make, the widening of sidewalks, the um the slimming down of roads, the the setting of new handicap accessible walkways, new stop bars, all of those help add to the safety of this intersection.

Um, I think the signal is the key where you know traffic is stopped in one direction or the other when the other traffic is is making a motion through that through that intersection.

Okay.

Um so if I were coming down walnut stream, okay.

Correct.

Um traffic coming southbound on 9th Street is improved by some of the improvements you've mentioned, correct?

Correct.

Correct.

But nonetheless controlled by the signal, correct?

Absolutely.

So if I am proceeding eastbound on Walnut Street, the traffic coming from my left is stopped.

It's stopped because it should be there shouldn't be green lights both ways.

There should not.

Despite there being some losses, barring an error and people both say it's three.

Right.

We know that.

But but that's what that's what is the issue here, correct?

Right.

To me, that's the controlling factor in the request for the relief is it's a signalized intersection.

This is not a rural street.

These are 25 mile an hour zones.

It's calm traffic.

I mean, when we surveyed this, you know, there were no issues, there were no screeching tires, there was no coming, nobody coming to a screeching halt.

It's a calm city street, no different than 7th and Hamilton or you know, the intersection right here, it's just your average city street with a signal.

Reasonably safe.

And in any event, you're indicating there are there is improved distances to begin with based on some of the improvements.

Where are those on this plan?

Correct.

The why don't you mark on this so we'll put this to the right where where have you done things that would be separate and apart, but in addition to the one-way configuration and the light, actually create more space and visibility at that area.

Yeah, I will bubble them on this exhibit.

Widened sidewalks.

I think if I could add to it, I think the other thing that the widened sidewalks do is it eliminates, as you said, the shoulder, but that eliminates on street parking from the corner.

So it removes the the vehicles that were parked as a potential obstruction of that site line, correct?

I could not have said it better.

Yeah, that's this was all things that we worked with with the planning commission to, in an attempt to make this intersection even safer than it already is.

And the site triangle does not prohibit any of that.

And then one other thing, in addition to what the board member just indicated, also is there are no driveway entrances for passenger vehicles coming in and out, correct?

No, I think where's the parking?

So the parking for this facility is immediately west.

Um I think on the sixth floor, there is proposed to be a connection to the resident.

I think that's where the residential section starts in our building, and there is a immediate connection to the parking deck, which you can see in that photo up behind the tree.

Uh that's the deck that we're gonna be connecting to.

So there is a lease in place for that parking.

So there is no absolutely no on street parking for this facility on South Knight or Walnut for the residents.

And there's no driveways close to that intersection because we don't have parking on the site, correct?

The only driveway that I'm aware of is on Walnut Street, a couple hundred feet up, and it's for the parking deck that these residents are to use.

And that's before our site, as they're heading east.

It's not after our site, so we would not be causing any type of clogging or anything like that.

To my knowledge, there are no adjacent driveways on South Ninth north of us.

As the first witness indicated, this is a relatively small lot, correct?

It's a very small lot.

It's unique, but what you're proposing is permitted, correct?

It is.

So a building of this size is permitted on that property.

It is, yes.

Okay, so it would would you say as an infill project in a city of this sort, that small vacant lot, which happens to be next to a parking garage where it can have parking, it's it's a unique property in that regard, correct?

This was very unique and very um proper of the previous developer to acquire that parking.

That was key.

I mean, it took us a while to get that was key to get that from the Allentown Parking Authority so that we could accommodate a structure and infill development like this.

Okay.

And in working with the prior owner, the current owner, and the current owner's architect, do you agree it's uh it is a hardship if you are not able to use the footprint that has been worked on for the last 10 years?

Is that correct?

Yes.

I mean, I'm I'm not a structural engineer, but I can attest to the common sense of what Eric mentioned about the structural integrity of having that that footer, that framing point right at the corner.

You know, I I'm not a structural engineer, but I it's common sense.

Based on all the improvements you've discussed, the traffic signal, the one-way streets, the parking being on another lot, and there being no driveways into this site near the intersection.

Do you think there is any safety issue if a relief is granted to allow the building as shown, or the building as could be under that old ordinance put on Hamilton between 6th and 10th, for example?

No, there's no there's absolutely no safety concern.

We're if anything, we're we're improving safety as the previous application was mentioning with the schools and everything.

We're making this intersection better.

Okay.

And um, have you limited the kept the relief to a minimum by doing those additional features that the city has requested of you?

Yes, absolutely.

Okay.

That's all the questions I have for this witness.

Any questions, board?

Um, just two.

Uh only one of this witness.

Uh, have you have you watched maybe a couple more questions?

But do you have have you done in your work um any work for Pendot or involving Pendot rights of way?

I have, yes.

I've done a lot with Pendot, not specifically in the city, but yes, I've worked with Pendot for probably 15 years.

Is the old ordinance in the city the their methodology of calculating site triangles radically divergent from how Pendot would evaluate them?

So that's an interesting question.

Um I had a conversation with a traffic engineer today, um, if I can testify to that.

Um just trying to learn as much as possible.

Pendot does not regulate site triangles in a sense that municipalities do.

Pend not is more concerned about safe stopping distance.

So when you are traveling along Walnut or South Ninth, they're more concerned about the safe stopping distance versus the crossing site distance that you may have specifically at a signalized intersection.

But the stopping distance pend out relates to sight distance, though.

I think it does.

Yes.

You have to observe the obstruction or hazard before you can apply the brakes.

Correct.

At an at a non-signalized intersection, at a signalized intersection, I would tend to think that they're more concerned about, hey, can I see that signal in front of me safely?

Because the other traffic opposing that would be stopped.

Although I think in Pennsylvania, you can in certain circumstances turn left on red from a one-way street to another one-way street.

So the site distance, I think, is still important.

Um, but I believe that Pendot calculates site distance based upon different, completely different set of geometry than the uh the old ordinance did.

You could be right, Scott.

I I'm not a traffic engineer, I don't know.

Yeah, I have I have no further questions for this one.

I'm real quick.

Although I do have one for the zoning officer.

Um I suspect, and I knew this and I've forgotten, so I'm gonna put you on the spot.

I believe the new ordinance has a very different approach to clear site triangles than the old ordinance does.

Is that an accurate statement?

Yeah, I think it depends on obviously the district and obviously the building type as well, but it it does.

But I mean, as this has been going on for some time with the tower here, so they got it in retro under the old code.

But yeah, there is a little bit of a difference in the new.

So you if you know, and I wouldn't have expected you to review it against the new ordinance, but if you know, would what's proposed on exhibit A, what is this, four?

Um, would this require a variance under the new ordinance?

That I don't know off the top of my head.

No.

Fair enough.

Okay, thanks.

Okay.

Do you have another witness or you're done?

No, you said I would move for the admission of the exhibits.

Did you want to include this as another exhibition?

Yeah, yeah.

This is A five, so I moved for the emission of A1 if it would be five, not A four.

All right.

Okay.

Scott, did you say that question?

Two questions.

No, oh, you're good?

Okay.

All right.

Okay, the exhibits A one through five are admitted.

Um actually I do have a question.

When you say you slim down the lane, is that what you said?

I think those are my words, yes.

Those are that's because of the expansion of the sidewalk.

Correct.

Right now it's shoulder and available parking, which the city is removing to literally only have enough room for two travel lanes, no shoulder to park.

Okay, right.

So they're removing the parking again, all working towards safety.

They're removing the parking for the first uh I'm spitballing maybe 30 or 40 feet going north, basically where that gray car is from the intersection up to that gray car in that photo.

Yeah, that curving is gonna be coming towards the middle of the road to eliminate anybody parking right at the corner, which would then further obstruct the site distance.

Okay.

Okay.

Are we ready for discussions?

Yes.

Go ahead.

Okay.

Thanks, guys.

I think, and we've had with the old ordinance again, the uh the site triangle has been problematic for uh as long as I can remember.

And uh I I believe it was amended and corrected in the new ordinance, but I guess that's not entirely material.

But the the point being is we have previously granted relief.

Um, I think in some cases without the extensive sidewalk and curb realignment that we see here.

Um so I think this goes even further than in previous cases where we have granted relief um to to mitigate any perceived conflict.

And again, I believe that the the old ordinance was actually overly restrictive.

Um, then if we would have followed it like every building downtown would have a chamfered off corner.

Um we'd be the only town in the entire world that had every building chamfered off at the corner.

Um but uh the uh the the fact that they've made some substantial mitigations, particularly removing parking as you approach the intersection on both South or Walnut and 9th.

Um I think that considerably removes potential uh view blocks um to see the other lane of traffic again, even if you have one red light and one green light, you could have someone attempting to turn left onto um walnut from ninth, and therefore the the site distance I think is material.

Um we've had other circumstances where the clear sign site triangle was completely um insignificant because of the flow of traffic here, it's not entirely, but I I think for all those reasons that the the relief is is warranted and and doesn't pose a traffic safety, and for those reasons I'd make a motion to approve the relief as requested.

Do I have a second?

Yeah, I second it, and just want to add as a fun fact if I'm interpreting this correct that this parcel is located in the GXC zone in the new zoning code, and um parcels located in this district are accepted from the site triangle regulation.

So not that it I know we're conflating two things, but just a fun fact for the future.

Okay, absolutely I second it, yeah.

So I have a motion and a second.

All in favor.

Aye, aye.

Thanks for your time.

Thank you.

All right, what should we take?

Okay, well, let's take 10th Street, Mr.

Sella.

Thank you.

Good evening.

Um, my client had a family.

I need your name, please.

Sure, Lucas Elwa.

Yes, first name Lucas L U K A S Z, last name Selwa S E L W A.

And I represent Primo's property.

Um, just by way of background, my client had a family there.

You represent who Primos properties.

Okay, this is for 10th Street.

Yeah, 10th.

We didn't get we got a lot of old information, but I didn't get even that.

What's uh what's the owner's name?

Uh it's Primos P-R-I-M-O-S properties LLC.

Okay, and you have what relationship with them.

I represent them as counsel.

Okay, all right.

And tell me your name again.

Oh no, it's written it's here.

You're there instead of the owner in this notice.

Okay.

Your counsel.

You called an applicant on here.

Okay.

And Primos.

Okay, go ahead.

I'm not.

So I'm I'm here on behalf of Primos properties.

Uh my client had a family emergency today as far as uh testifying.

I did have an opportunity to present or per uh prepare exhibits.

Um, being that there's no objectors to um any of the testimony here today to the extent the board is willing uh in lieu of actual testimony from my client.

I'm I'm willing to present those uh pieces of evidence and essentially uh give some dialogue or testimony on behalf of my clients uh to the extent that is not acceptable.

I would respectfully request to get put on the next uh agenda.

Well, I think we should hear from your client.

Um thoughts I I would I would say we need to hear from the yeah, yeah.

Uh sorry about his emergency, but I think um it would be appropriate for you to uh request uh continuance.

Yes, sir.

Um I just to clarify I don't know that we necessarily need his client, but we need some witness, yeah.

Um, because we've had other cases this evening where there were witnesses who were not the actual client but were representatives of the client.

Um where it's just I think it's important that we have someone to provide testimony.

Yeah, it's a little difficult to ask myself questions and run over.

So I understand and I apologize, truly it's out of my control.

Those things happen.

Uh so you are requesting a continuance.

Yes, sir.

Do I have a motion?

I'll make a motion to the accept the applicant's request for continuance subject to the appropriate fees and waivers of time requirements.

Do we have do we have a uh 45-day waiver or 60-day waiver?

Yeah.

There won't be the next hearing that that one's already.

You say we do have them.

The waiver?

Yes.

Yes.

I don't think they've already signed them, or oh no, I was getting ready for advanced.

That's why I'm not going to do that.

Oh, okay.

Them signing it.

Okay.

Council can sign for it.

We'll we'll we'll take you on that.

Thanks.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

Great night.

Okay.

You too, thank you.

And Tavia will give those to you to sign.

Okay, St.

John Street.

Uh special exception.

Use application of Hendivith Calderon Calicano, is that right?

Yes.

How did I do?

Henli Betz?

With the pronunciation of your name, is that you?

Yes.

Okay.

Um let's have you sworn in.

Just stay right there and raise your hand.

Do you sort of tell the truth, the whole truth?

And nothing but the truth, so help you out.

Yes.

And you are here asking us to approve a child care center in a church building.

Yes.

Okay.

Thank you.

I need um the interpreter.

Do you speak a Spanish?

Um my sister is here.

I am translator for you, please.

I'm not sure I understood.

She's asking for a translator.

So before you go any further, um, the sister, can I just have your personal sure?

Daniela Young.

Spell person left.

Sure, Daniela D-A-N-I-E L L A Young, as in forever.

Y O U N G.

Okay.

Do you swear to honestly translate English to Spanish and Spanish to English accurately and truthfully?

Yes, I do.

Now it might be good for you to switch positions.

Yeah.

There you go.

And pull that microphone close to you.

Absolutely, thank you.

So according to the notice, we uh are being asked to approve a child care center.

Correct?

Yes.

And child care center, according to the definition of the zoning ordinance is for the uh supervision of seven or more children at any one time.

And yes.

How many children do you expect to have there to supervise at any one time?

Um dependent del enrollment i del staffetolo.

According to the plans that um are in front of all of you, I believe.

Can you hear me here?

Sorry, I apologize.

According to the plans, um they can hold up to 69 children.

However, you know, enrollment will really depend in the beginning as to how many children are there at the start of the daycare when it opens.

Okay.

Um do you presently operate a child care center?

In a moment, um siete años de experience, yeah.

And no, she is currently not um operating a child center.

She has seven years of experience and works at a child center.

Going in master experience, yeah.

Uh are you aware you need a um certificate from the city health bureau?

Yes, uh um as you mean as it does uh um yes, yes, she is aware.

She also um did previously say she's been a director for daycare, is a teacher, and has all of those qualifications as well.

And psychologist as well.

Okay, this is to be located in an existing church building.

What's the church, the name of that church?

Yeah, be the um Fuente de Vida Church.

It's called Fountain of Life Church.

What life?

Fountain of life.

In Spanish, it's Fuente Bebida.

And do you have a lease for this use with the church?

I think the end is only yes.

Do you have a copy with you?

Yes.

I don't know.

I'd take a look.

Maybe it is.

She also does have the church pastor and the architect here if there's any questions in regards to the plants.

We we will I see Mr.

Gog sitting there.

So we will ask him some questions.

I just wanted to see by what authority the application was made, and I see that this document indicates uh that the property owner authors authorizes uh the application.

Okay.

Board members questions of this witness.

I'll mark this A1, this document.

Okay.

And it's on the case.

Oh, was it on the Scott?

Is there a site plan in there as well?

Because I don't I didn't see the digital.

No, I didn't see it digital either.

Okay.

Well, I I don't have any questions.

We'll ask him up here, huh?

Okay.

I think we'd like to hear from Mr.

Gao.

Do you see?

Personal last name is fine, please.

Yes, it's Stewart, S-T-E-W-A-R-T, Gauk, G-O-U-C-K.

Do you swear to tell the truth the whole truth and if you've got the choice to help you back?

I do.

Thank you.

Don't forget that my sound soft spoken.

Oops.

Yeah, I mean okay, what's proposed?

Uh I prepared a plan for them.

Um we are proposing to use the lower level of the church in the rear, which is actually at grade at that uh because of the the smoking of the the lot.

Um we're proposing to basically use the space as is.

It's currently news, like it's kind of like a Sunday school type classroom situation with a um like a kind of community space in the basement and a kin existing kitchen.

So we're going to use the basically use the rooms as they're configured now.

The um kind of community base would be their their play area, the existing kitchen we use as the kitchen.

Um we are proposing to provide parking on a adjacent lot across the alley, Chester Street, which is owned by the church also.

There are 36 spaces there available, and by our calculation, they need to have uh six parking spots for just based on the the uh requirement of twelve one space per twelve kids and then one um uh drop-off space.

So those thirty-six will be using seven.

Uh we also propose to have a small play area in the corner of that um that parking area, which is currently kind of cordoned off by some garden garden uh rails.

I'm sorry, it's cornered off by what?

Uh some like metal uh guardrails?

Yeah.

So this in this plan that you have.

What is what are these here?

Uh those are just adjacent lots, those are like there's uh their adjacent residential properties, but they're not uh the so the church is all the corner.

Yes, that's the since project location is the 150 foot by 83.88 uh feet lot there, it's a separate lot.

So the hash marks are the building?

Correct of the building.

Yes.

And it's that ground floor that you proposed to use.

Yes, that would be actually on the north end of the lot.

I think the pictures here it's um it would be as far down the street as you can go on the in this picture.

I'm not sure if there's a I saw a number of pictures go by there.

I'm not sure if there's a picture that shows the the entrance entrance is actually kind of under the the tower.

So where's Chester Street?

On the other side of the building?

It's on the other side, yes.

And what street is down there that we see the corner of?

Uh that is Lehigh Street, which is on the north side of the parking lot.

That's where street kind of comes at an angle up from the uh the creek.

And what's this street on the left?

Um that Hall Street, South Hall Street.

And then St.

John's kind of where we're standing at the this picture here.

It is uh I think if you're staying at the corner, you just turn to the kind of the southwest to be looking at uh Jefferson school.

So the uh details of the interior shown here are existing.

Correct.

Yeah, there's I mean I'm I uh there we're not proposing any kind of interior alterations to the building we be using the spaces.

I think there's there's one classroom that maybe we could be temporarily divided into the two to two separate uh age group areas, but besides that, that would that would just be um done by with movable furniture.

So clarify for me the parking needs.

You're saying there seven spaces are needed for how many children?

Well the one space per twelve children.

Um six is seventy two.

So we be uh I think we uh actually on the plan here we have um uh I believe there's seventy-two kids on this on the on here on on our plan here.

So you have um any we have you know if they wouldn't could possibly have an increase of number of k kids in the future, we'd still have thirty-six parking spaces available for them on the parking lot.

It's a very it's a very large lot and that whole that whole um lot in the back.

We have we have seven of them pictured on the plan here, but there's there's many more available.

Yeah.

Questions of Mr.

Gal?

Uh sure.

What is the uh total parcel size?

Uh the parcel size of the building itself is uh in excess of twelve thousand square feet.

Okay.

And is there a proposed location or how is uh how is uh trash gonna be handled?

Um there's an existing dumpter dumpster on the the back of the rear lot.

And the daycare would use the same dumpster?

You don't know that answer.

I don't know, but I imagine so, yes.

And do you know if there's any residential dwellings in this church?

There's definitely not.

I have no other questions.

This question might be for the applicant, Miss Calderon.

Um I'm sorry, it's late, so this might have been said, but just to clarify, um, can you talk about the the drop off and you know pick up how that will operate with the the kids?

Yeah, so we're selling procedimiento that they handle those niños and la mañana y quantas recogiando el nino los niños.

So see the way that explicaciones.

Donde los padres van a ir a dejar los niños, butersa cargo para entrar a los niños, vamos a un programma comun application yamada proker.

And Basa, los padres van a poner su fingerprints.

Um entra lino, e de igual forma quando lino salga, el Papa Paponel de Nuevo Suella y Levamo entregan.

Solamente las personas autorizadas se le van a entregar los niños.

Okay.

So she's explaining that they are going to have a front desk and also a set a system, a software called ProCare, where parents essentially will have to use their fingerprint to check in and out and to be able to get their children in and out.

However, at that front desk, she will have staff there to ensure that the appropriate parent is coming to pick up their child, and also in case of an emergency.

Um whoears on the list will be authorized to pick up those children.

Sure.

And then in terms of the people that might be coming via car, will they park in the lot and walk over to the door, or do you envision them pausing right in front of the door on hall street and dropping the kids off?

So she expects them to essentially you know walk into the building and then bring their children into the building that way.

But the question is about parking.

Yeah, so just to clarify, they would park in the lot and walk across Chester Street and go into the side door.

That is correct.

She wanted to clarify that this is not the entrance, it would be the door on the other side, which is closer to the parking lot as well.

Thank you.

How about the hours of operation?

I'm sorry, yeah.

6 a.m.

So 6 p.m.

Monday through Friday.

6 a.m.

6 p.m.

Monday through Friday.

Correct.

She also prepared a statement that she wanted to share and was hoping she would be able to share with all of you.

Is that this?

Yes.

Uh no.

Yes.

She has it in Spanish.

I can read it in English if that's easier for all of you.

So let's say.

I think we can read it.

Okay.

Sorry, Santa.

Okay.

So exactly, but she did not.

She did not give this to you.

She did not allow it.

She did not give this document to you.

It was more of her just wanting to share about the daycare and her vision for it and why she wanted to do this.

So she was hoping she would be able to share that with all of you.

Okay.

Could she do that right now?

Okay, could get a slide to them.

Okay.

Do you want to interpret for us?

Yes.

She's saying via care.

It has been essentially created with the thought process that every child deserves to be cared for, um, disregarding or not regarding their abilities or what they look like or who they are.

She wants to ensure that there's a child care center that is welcoming to all of them.

One of the most important parts of this project is that she is focusing on children with disabilities.

The daycare will have all of the necessary different things such as cameras, checking and checking out software, whatever is necessary to ensure that the children are always safe and secure.

She believes that this daycare is needed because the city of Allentown needs to have more daycares where families feel they can bring their children under safe and they're part of a community and understood.

And respectfully I solicit your approval on this day, and thank you for your time and for all of your questions and for the opportunity to be here today.

Thank you.

Questions?

Sorry, I do that's okay.

If you could just state your first and last name and spell please.

E-S-C-A-M-I-L-L-A.

And your first name is Walt Please.

Alejandro.

A L A J A M D R O.

That should have been nothing but the shoes call helping it.

Yes.

Sorry.

Just a quick question.

We heard from the applicant that they intend to use the uh their operate their daycare from 6 a.m.

to 6 p.m.

Monday through Friday.

And what are the other activities of your congregation in terms of hours?

Uh is it primarily Sundays or evening meetings or what if any uh overlap do you anticipate with your congregation's activities and their operation?

Uh actually I don't want to spec any problems.

We have meetings uh Tuesdays and Thursdays at 7 p.m.

to 8 30.

So basically, yes, we have uh two services on Sunday.

So uh and and the and the day the building is pretty much empty.

Great, thank you.

Maybe sometimes just me.

Thank you.

Yes, sir.

Bob, did you want this on the record so I can't here?

No.

No, okay.

St.

John's area.

So yes, I St.

John.

So this would be the front of the chair.

And this would be the first.

This is Hall.

Yes, and then this is just here.

Between the church building and the parking lot.

It's like all streets.

Okay.

Um do I have a motion.

Um I would this once again, this is a special exception.

I would move to approve this application based on the fact that we heard no testimony that would lead us to believe that the use um is any of those negative.

Yes, and exactly, thank you.

It's late.

Um, and we also heard um, you know, through the testimony that it meets all the supplemental use regulations, um, lot area and all the narrative offloading, um, loading areas, parking, etc.

Certifications.

Um, so with that I move to approve the special exception use.

Okay.

I would agree and I'd second that.

Okay, all in favor.

I now let me let me mention we will write an opinion, and it'll have some conditions in it, like getting licensed and that sort of thing, and and uh and operating as you testified, it's intended to operate things like that.

So take a look at that.

It'll also be subject to getting whatever permits.

I don't know, you're gonna need very many permits for anything interior.

It's all the same.

It's all it's staying the same.

Yeah, they may not have to, they might not need a building permit necessarily.

Well, they might need a CO permit uh at minimum for building, but then yeah, every other permit, health, uh fire, you know, they're gonna need to go through the full gambit uh hereafter once they get the decision from you guys in print.

So we'll need a uh building permit because it's a change of use from the just a church and the daycare use.

Correct.

So apply for building building permit, even though we're not really building anything.

Okay, could I have that drawing that you fold up?

We don't get a mark that it's in the file.

Oh sorry.

Okay.

Do we know when our next meeting is?

August 13th.

August 13th.

Oh, that's a month.

Oh my goodness.

August 13th.

No taking a look.

Okay.

I'm gonna put it here, yeah.

Thank you.

Happy.

Oh good night.

Third.

August third.

August third.

Third.

August third, twenty-sixth.

Okay.

Yeah, that's other data center.

No, that's end of the month.

We wanted to make sure.

Um, so I'm not available on the 10th, so it won't be the 10th.

And then he had to gather and make sure that everybody else was going to be available on random dates for him to choose, and everybody said they were used.

Oh so then he's gonna choose, pick a day.

It won't be August the 10th, because I I'm not available that day.

Our next name case is August.

Yep.

Okay.

All right.

No other business for the board.

Meetings adjourned.

Oh, yeah.