I call this meeting to order.

Uh today March 5th, 2026 at 6 33 p.m.

Uh, let's have some roll call.

Alderman uh Brooke Shandemeyer.

Okay, Alderman Frank Thorpe present.

Awesome.

Is there uh before we make a motion actually to um approve of the agenda?

Um I will entertain a motion to add ID 5426, which is employee relations discussion to the agenda.

Um we have with us Claudia Barber today, and she uh was supposed to be on our agenda.

So is there a motion to add this to our agenda?

So moved.

Second, thank you.

All in favor okay.

Um I also have um on our agenda um one twenty-six, which is the property tax child care centers.

Uh we are going to look into that.

Okay, we're gonna look into uh that in a bit.

So um let's move forward.

Uh is there a motion to approve of the minutes from our last meeting on uh February 5th, 2026?

So moved.

Okay, second.

Second.

Awesome.

Uh all in favor of that, thank you.

All right.

Okay.

My first uh piece of legislation for the afternoon, the evening uh is 0126 property tax child care centers, family child care homes, and large family child care homes.

Um now I'd ask, I know we just received some information on this earlier today.

Uh we were thinking that uh we would have another meeting uh if we can to invite uh the persons to speak in front of us if you don't mind.

Yeah, I'm I'm sorry.

I was na not successful at uh doing that today, and I'm sorry.

Oh no, no, come on, you do a lot.

We appreciate you.

Thank you very much.

Um as long as it's okay and there's no super rush on this, no deadlines that we have to meet.

Um would love to see if we could postpone this.

Um to to give some more time.

I have to do that.

To do so.

Okay.

Do you mind sharing with us?

Look, we're not gonna get new information.

Um it's on the agenda for final vote after getting out of finance committee on Monday.

Um I think what they're going to say is the same things that I have been saying that this was passed by the state.

It's a good legislation, it's going to come forward.

I've put forward an amendment um to address some of the issues with the fiscal note after digging uh deep dive into what the actual property taxes that these folks will be paying is and um I just don't see a point in delaying it.

Okay.

Well, before I speak, um is there would you like to say anything, Alderman Thorpe at all before I say what I would say?

Okay.

Well, uh, we did say that we would have someone come forth before us before we made any found decisions, and saying that those people did not come uh due to scheduling.

I don't think it's right uh to just move forward on this if there's no pressing uh need for it at this very moment.

And it also gives us more due diligence to be able to uh get the research that we received earlier this afternoon to really dive into that.

Um it's not that that this isn't a good piece of legislation or the amendment isn't a positive one.

I just uh would say that we should hold off on moving forward before we do uh what we said we would.

Um that's that's why I'm sharing that.

Do you think it would be uh um a harm to wait?

Uh or is this just a preference?

It's a preference, and if we're gonna keep waiting on if we can coordinate schedules with a bunch of volunteers from the county to pass legislation, uh it's we're not gonna get anything done.

Um we have had the policy analyst look into this.

Um again, this is something that has been pushed forward by the Anne Rumble County delegation for the city of Annapolis and Anne Rondo County.

Um I just think kicking it down the can another month is just a waste of time.

Okay.

I do not think that it's a waste of time.

Um is there uh yes, Alderman Thorpe?

I I think I I see both sides of this in a the sense of urgency, I think, is what we got to figure out.

Um I think there's a the issue here to me is who is responsible for child care policy for the city of Annapolis, for the staff and for the uh um uh city council, what committee in other words, I think what this legislation properly brings to light is is that the shortage of child care, as Alderman Chandelmeyer has said, is a problem in the city of Annapolis and should be addressed uh in a bigger picture.

Um and I think what we agreed to last month was uh that this is an area where we could in fact work with the county um as as numerous people have said, you know, where can we leverage the the benefits of the county uh or the expertise of the county and not have to have the own expertise here?

So I don't think I don't you know, especially with with the reduction of from 10,000 to 4,000.

Um this the city manager put out an email about that there is uh probably gonna be I think it was uh the acting city manager put it out that it's we think the take rate of this is even going to be lower than we expected and the goodness of it as Alderman Chandelmeyer has pointed out.

Uh I don't know that anybody thinks it has a worry about this, but the fact that we're not looking at child care in the bigger picture, um what is our child care, what is our policy from a city standpoint to improve uh the child care uh situation in the city of Annapolis, especially when we talk a lot about what we need to do to encourage young femilies to move to Annapolis and stay in Annapolis.

So if there's not a sense of urgency, there's a benefit to keeping this legislation as the driving force to get that.

Um and then you know the next question is is it the rules committee, Mr.

Chairman, that is going to take this on is a bigger picture, um, which might make sense with Alderman Chandelmeyer's input and all that.

Uh I guess the mayor would have an input as to that as to what committee would would look into that, but it does seem to me to make sense that we've got to look at child care not just as one bit of constructive legislation, but as a policy.

Waiting to delay what I am again going to state a piece of legislation that was a priority from the Anorondo County delegation until we have a whole comprehensive policy that fixes every single element of the city's child care policy is a nonsensical waste of time.

This is a good bill.

This passed out of the finance committee in five minutes as it was originally written.

And I am frankly a little flabbergasted at the delay on this.

Um if we are to wait until every single issue is solved perfectly and beautifully and 100% in completion, we would not do anything.

We would be paralyzed with analysis every single time.

You solve problems by taking small steps forward, making life a little bit easier for families.

And that is how you fix things.

It's how do you eat an elephant one bite at a time.

I've been working on child care issues for the past three years, legalizing more zoning code opportunities for them, chipping away at outdated regulations that we had that kept staff numbers down.

If I had waited until we had every single one, we would still be following outdated policies where you couldn't open a daycare in the majority of our commercial districts.

We can't wait to coordinate every single policy that we know will move the needle forward if until the county does something.

We can't wait until we have the perfect witness for every single program.

That's just how you get nothing done.

All right.

Um so what it sounds as if is um what was the point then of us saying in our last meeting that we should invite people to come here if now that they weren't able to come due to scheduling a conflicts, we can't still extend invite for someone to come at our next meeting.

Uh we're talking about a month.

Um I don't think that it's a waste of time to have more time to research this and and make sure that the impacts are what you're claiming that they are.

Um 4,000, I do support the amendment, I think, to lower the tax credit amount.

I think that makes sense, uh, especially if we're talking about budgeting properly, but I don't think it necessarily makes sense for us to move forward on this if we haven't given uh the information to our committee.

We haven't had the time to have those people come forth and give us some information.

So what was the point of us requesting it at the last meeting?

What information do you want?

So I think we laid out an entire list of information, including uh which uh which businesses were going to be impacted, the diversity of those businesses.

Um we did speak of that.

Uh do we have that information?

We have a list of these licensed child care facilities in the city of Annapolis.

Yeah, I not demographic characteristics of those businesses.

Do we talk about the capacity of the businesses where they were currently?

Uh do we talk about what this how this legislation would improve of the capacity?

Did we talk about the biases that go behind um child care companies or businesses where they bring in certain families and do and you know do not include others?

I mean, did we talk about any of that?

We didn't, and I think that having a larger conversation with members from the county level who did do that research um would just be beneficial.

I don't think we are we are losing out by doing that.

We're not saying we're not going to support it in the long run.

We're just saying, hey, let's have a longer conversation.

Those questions that you ask, I guarantee you they're not gonna have specific answers for because they don't dive that deep into it.

They don't know the race and breakdown of the child care facilities in the city of Annapolis.

We have a list of where they are, where their location is.

I don't know if we have an idea of their exact capacity limit at this time.

I don't know if the county has an exact limit of that capacity because that's just information not a lot of people take.

The state probably has a list of certain things, but again, others they're just data we don't collect.

But the beauty of the tax credit is it's not limited, it applies to anyone who wishes to apply for it.

And that's how you can cut down on these wait times.

And I guess part of my frustration is some of these questions, while important, are not relevant to the legislation.

It's a tax bill.

Um, do you recall at all those questions that we asked about the financing of this about the timeline of when they would I know we talked about the tax credit?

Do you remember those questions at all?

Um that we had asked.

I remember what you were asking from the last meeting.

I'm not sure again that I understand where you're coming from from asking that information, but I don't know realistically if we would be able to get all of that information.

Um that's that's that's a bigger state level issue about licensing that the city's not doesn't really have any authority over.

We're offering a tax credit, which we do have authority to to do something about, but we don't have any legal authority relating to licensing of child care facilities.

That's a state decision.

So a lot of your questions and concerns would have to be handled at a state level, not at a local city level.

Okay.

Well, what are we feeling on this?

Uh because I I just I don't see the I don't see the issue with waiting.

Um I don't, I don't I don't even get why why it's such a place to do it right in this very moment when we could have additional information.

Um I do believe that families deserve relief support, and we should make sure anything that is regarding families and children get the thorough review, period.

Because will a month change or uh current the current state that we're in right now where families still don't have access to child care?

Will in one month, if we did this in one month, will we be able to add additional 15, 25 children into any type of of child care uh in one month from today?

Us passing this issue in our meeting.

Delay is this delays us creating this tax credit program, and that delays us being able to offer this benefit to our child care facilities, and that delays us being able to bring wait times down and delays us being able to potentially bring costs down.

The analysis of this stuff was done when the state passed the enabling legislation.

Do we have any child care facilities who've reached out to us or share their input, maybe positive review or thoughts on how they would be impacted by this legislation?

I think that that's something that we could also do.

Uh, maybe we send an invite to all the 40 plus childcares that we have in the city, and we ask them, hey, what's your testimony on this?

How have you been impacted by this?

What would you need from us to make it better for you?

Uh, how do you think it would impact the families and the children that you are serving?

Um that we don't even have that information.

We're just throwing money out there thinking and expecting.

We're saying that many people won't even be interested or know about this.

So if that's the case, why we should be doing the work in the forefront by promoting it, getting out to them, telling them about what we're doing, so that when the time comes and this does pass, they will be fully aware.

Is that have we done that at all?

So normally that is part of what the council looks for in the public testimony associated with any ordinance, is it's an invitation to the public at large, which would include businesses and and stuff like that, to um you know, let the council know their their thoughts, how that affects them and the rest of that.

Um, so that's sort of built into the normal legislative process.

Okay, there hasn't been any intentional direct to the businesses themselves, more so a general to all people.

Yeah, that's what it would be.

It wouldn't be directly to them because this legislation is impacting them directly.

So I was just asking if we've if you've if maybe even uh you Alderman, uh, if you've reached out to any of them and encouraged them to share any testimony prior to, or um, you know, if they've given you any urge to do this, if you've had any meetings with them one-on-one, if they like where is it coming from them asking, or is this we saw it, we believe it would be beneficial, let's do it.

This was came from when the state gave us the enabling legislation as part of the meetings with the women's caucus in Anne Rondo County as one way to help address the child care crisis and shortage to bring wait times and costs down when this enabling legislation was passed.

I tried to take advantage of it.

How long do we have?

Uh is there an expiration to this.

You mean the our our legislation or like yeah, legislation can only tax credit?

The tax credit, uh no, it was approved.

It's part of state law now, so it's it's not going anywhere.

Um so no, there's not an expiration per se from in the state law from when we have to enact it, they've enabled it to for us to enact it when we see fit.

Um, but I I would echo Alderman Shandemiler's remarks is that a lot of this was already done at the state level.

A lot of the the questions you're asking, the research, the the input was already done at the state level.

Before we actually ask before the state comments from the state.

We asked someone to come in from the state to see how it would impact Annapolis.

I we can ask, we cannot demand someone.

Oh, yeah, we should.

That's what we're at.

That's what we asked at the last meeting.

Correct.

But a lot of their stuff is already up in reports that are on their websites.

And I would also say that a lot of the reports that we receive are already up and on the websites.

So it's not about that.

I think it's about the process of getting input uh from those who have done the research so that we can see them face to face and ask any questions that may just arise in the moment.

Does that I mean we we can ask, but we we can't legally demand that they come.

Sure.

So there might be a stalemate.

If if you're saying you're not willing to do it unless someone comes, we can't require them to come.

All we can do is ask.

Okay, Alderman, uh Yeah, I think I think we're we're finding ourselves in a tough spot.

And and I don't think we should take this personal.

Uh any of us should um we're in a unique spot here where we're being a proposal in front of us to spend the residents' money, and we don't have anybody to tell us where my vantage point is that whether you know if it's 4,000 times 80, 320,000, half that 160,000, whatever it's still 160,000 is four dollars per resident.

We don't have anybody telling us that this is a better use of money for child care than some other place, and so it's I find myself in a tough spot on day 95 of the term that I'm not looking at somebody who's saying I've looked at child care in Annapolis or Anne Rondo County, and I'm I'm familiar with the reports that are on the web, which I don't I don't have time to read them.

Um and I I trust you know Shannomyers put a lot of work into that.

Uh I'm looking for that preferably Anne Rondo County child care person to say these are the five things that I think the city of Annapolis should do, or whatever, three things, five things for child to to increase child care and list them, and I'd like to hear them say, and I would rank this tax credit number one done.

I would rank this child care this tax credit number five.

It's a great initiative.

Maryland did all the research, the state uh the legislature approved it, the governor signed it.

Nobody's questioning that it's not a good program, but we don't have unlimited amount of money to put to child care.

And and so if I was to vote yes today, and in the city council, it would be based on my trust of Alderman Shandemaier saying it's a good program, not that this is a priority for child care to use.

Um for us to, you know, that we're gonna put a half a million dollars into child care um in 2027, and this is a good place to put 160,000 of it or whatever.

So that that's my shortcoming with this is that we're I'm being asked to make a decision to to spend money, i.e.

really tax credit, not earn revenue, but I don't have anything to compete it with when it comes to child care.

That's that's my my challenge.

Well, is there a motion then if if we can, and I know we have a lot going on in our lives.

Are you able to just request C if they are available uh the state uh to come because I think that was the best representative was from the state.

I know we mentioned the county if county is available ashore, but I don't know who said the state, and and trust and believe we are with you, uh totally with you.

Please it's not about that, it's more so about us doing uh what we can to get as much as we as much information as possible so that we're confident that this is the best thing to do uh for our families and children.

Not to say it isn't, uh, but this is a priority uh for our family and children.

Um and uh the money should be in their hands um as well.

Uh and so uh is there a motion if we can uh to put to postpone this uh until uh we can get those representatives in front of us um or at least an email.

Maybe they can email us a whole bunch of information, but I'd prefer them in front.

I think we would prefer them in front of us because there's a lot to read there.

Um is there a motion uh to postpone this uh until then at least, and if not, uh maybe an alternative motion that you all can put forth it's the legislative session, and we're trying to get state representatives.

I think the county is what we're looking for, right?

Yeah, state or county, whomever is available to come.

Isn't it isn't this an example?

Well, we talked about last month was this was an example where we could invite the county to share their expertise with us.

Um I I don't know enough about what child care uh program management the state has compared to the county has.

My first uh my first inclination would be to go to the county, which is what we talked about last month.

Um you know, to I think it was uh whoever uh Shannemar made it might have made the point about the county.

If they don't have if they say no, we we don't have it, well that changes the uh calculus, right?

I mean, but it to me it makes sense if there's somebody in the county who manages child care programs that they would be willing to testify to us about how best to enhance child care in Annapolis.

And what if they can't come again?

And are we able to do we have a way of inviting the child care businesses to just any of them and just saying we're having a meeting and rules of the city government would love to hear from you your input to see how this would impact you?

I think that's I think that's definitely something we can do.

Obviously, can't um I don't have control over who responds to sure.

Yeah, but we'd love to invite them here to our next meeting so that can be the final, hopefully, uh so as so that we can make some decisions on moving this forward.

Uh but uh I don't I do not believe tonight's tonight, because if that was the case, we should have just voted on the last meeting uh was when we didn't have any of this information.

Um and that wasn't done for this very reason.

So uh but we do have to move forward on it.

So there's either a motion that we're gonna postpone it, or there's gonna be a motion that we move forward.

Uh so I I'd ask.

I move that we postpone it.

Okay, is there a second?

I will second that.

Um, all in favor of it.

Um thank you.

Um we're gonna move forward uh with our agenda.

We really appreciate those coming uh to speak with us on uh the future elections uh here in our uh city.

Uh the city that we love so very much.

Um Capital State.

So I'd welcome if it is it.

I know I don't have our we have David with us today.

Um, David, and we um yeah, please come on up if you don't mind.

Um yeah, and we have Jared, okay.

Yes, hey Jared.

Um maybe we start uh with with uh and if you don't maybe introducing yourselves, uh sharing with us who you are, um, and then we'll start at the top on down, if you will, at this top level if we can, or if you have a preference, we can start with okay.

Jared Mariners.

Oh, yeah, let's turn on that mic if you don't mind.

Sorry, I've you said otherwise there.

So Jared DeMariness, state administrator of elections.

Um David Garris, the director of the Ana Rondo County Board of Elections.

Richard C.

Jack, the deputy director of the Annerondo County Board of Elections.

Thank you.

All right.

I think we'll start with uh David and his comments there.

And sure, absolutely, let's do it.

Any level, we love it all.

Thanks.

Go for it.

Sure.

Uh well, thank you.

Excuse me, if you don't mind.

Do we have anybody remote to um logged in?

So I believe that we for the virtual um we do, yeah, we don't have her.

Yeah, she's thinking thanks for clarifying that.

We are gonna have her come forth at our next meeting.

Um, yeah, please, if you don't mind, David.

Oh, yeah.

Uh, thank you for inviting us this evening.

Um, for the record, uh, Trudy McFall, the board president, uh, sends her uh regrets that she can't attend, but she looks forward to talking to you in the future.

Yeah, next meeting.

Um so uh earlier today I emailed a report to um to Kaelin to share with everybody.

Uh it is a history of the administrative history of the uh relationship between the Ana Rondo County Board of Elections and the City of Annapolis uh with regards to your election.

So my report um outlines the revolving administrative and fiscal relationship between the city uh of Annapolis and the Annerondal County Board of Elections since 2009.

Uh what you see in our history is a transition from kind of an informal cooperative service model to more of a complex high-risk operational contract.

Um so under Maryland election law, uh the relationship between the city and the county is kind of a blend of two components.

The first is our statutory obligation.

What we're legally mandated to provide in the election law is the certified list of the registered voters for the city.

And we do that at no cost.

Then the optional contract, the optional part is um that the city of Annapolis Board of Supervisors of Elections, they're the ones legally responsible for conducting the election.

Um any support beyond the voter list, such as providing equipment, poll workers, canvassing, and help certifying, is optional and it's formalized through a memorandum of understanding between the county and the city.

Um the way to think of in this case, the way to think of the county board of elections is a vendor.

We're sort of a vendor in this, uh, in this.

And your election does have a pretty significant scope.

Uh your election uh is uh serving an electorate of 25,473 people.

Uh and that is a size comparable to or larger than six of the Maryland counties.

Um our history will show that uh it's been a changing dynamic between us.

In 2009, we worked with an informal agreement.

Uh and unfortunately there were disagreements over cost reimbursements that led the Annerondal County Board of Elections, my bosses, uh, to decide against future participation.

And in 2013, the city administered their election independently.

And they concluded that the model involved much larger scope and higher costs and greater liabilities than they anticipated.

In 2017, we we created a uh uh MOU between the city and the county.

Uh and then 2021, uh in it adjusted to the uh COVID process, the city and county were both sued and named as defendants.

Uh and this to my board uh definites that there's a higher liability uh in conducting elections.

Um society is just become more litigious than it was in 2009.

And then in 2025, uh we've seen a changing landscape.

Uh there was emergency legislation uh uh proposed and passed by the Maryland legislature, which mandates that uh the city establish an MOU for the voting system uh with the state board of elections, and then establish a second MOU with the Maryland with the Anarondo County Board of Elections for services and support.

And uh this arrangement has been more expensive.

Uh for the equipment, it was about 76,000 for using the equipment for the two elections, and then about 150,000 for Anarondal County staff hours and services.

Um there have been some pressure points.

Uh then there's some future risks between the Board of Elections and the City.

Um, one of them is limitations that are coming from uh SBE and the legislature.

Um Annapolis is one of four exceptions, um the state board of elections is withdrawing or uh limiting the amount of service and support they're giving to municipalities.

Um and while we were happy and in place to uh provide services for the 2025 election, for 2029, the landscape may be different.

Uh and also our administrative bandwidth uh within modern election laws, and particularly some of the services that voters expect and that we're happy to provide uh with mail and voting, ballot curing, um, the expectance of enhanced ballot tracking, um, which is communication between our office when we receive your ballot, when we count your ballot, uh, it strains the county board of elections staff.

Our core priority is to maintain and administer the county, state, and federal election cycles.

And another aspect that is going to um that can risk future uh participation by the county is administrative customization on the part of the city.

And this would include things like ranked choice voting and open primaries, which would exceed our bandwidth both in a technical and legal capacity, and that might force the board to revert to its statutory minimum.

So in conclusion, the municipal election cycle is transitioned from an informal process kind of covered by an agreement, like a handshake agreement between the county and the and the city, into a more complex and uh involved process.

Um and it has necessitated as I've mentioned it's necessitated a higher level of uh support and services and uh increased involvement by the Board of Elections to uh successfully conduct the election.

So for the 2025, we think we had a very successful election.

Um it does come with it does come with uh with costs.

So uh with that, I'll turn it over to Jared.

Sure.

I just want to make a point about what David mentioned about uh the state getting more involved uh in the as in the past.

The state owns the the voting equipment.

And so every time it was being leased out, we had to, you know, that's where the law changed because it wasn't the county's legal right to take our equipment that the state owns and lease it out.

So the General Assembly had changed the law, so it's saying that a municipality has to come to the State Board of Elections in order to, I guess, lease or you know, rent the equipment at any particular time.

You know, we have to make determinations as to elections.

Your election is off-cycle, so we would always be able to allow for it.

You know, as our expenses go with the equipment for replacement if it gets damaged and everything else, is that's where the costs come into play.

Um we've been using old systems right now for poll books, uh, but we're now modernizing that system there.

Uh so you know, costs are going up because our equipment costs went up across the board.

I mean, that's just things are just going up.

The other thing too is uh, you know, yes, you know, we can support certain portions of it because we can offer technical expertise, but again, that there's costs associated with it.

And as you if the the city wants to engage in other activities, such as like ranked choice voting or anything outside of the normal scope of our of our processes, then we can't accommodate those requests.

So for example, like our voting equipment has the ability to do a ranked choice ballot, but then we wouldn't be able to tabulate for you.

You would have to go out and procure that system on your own because our system would not know how to, you know, give you a results.

And so yeah.

If you don't mind also giving a little bit about what would that process be of curing those votes, are you saying each person counting bit by bit uh to see what the results are?

So basically the system right now is ranked choice capable, right?

So you can you can create a ballot, it can be ranked choice, right?

It would be landscape and everything else, we would be able to be scanned, right?

But then it would just print out exactly what the results are, like first choice, second choice, and the you know, the tabulation part of it where it's like, well, this person, you know, this candidates uh no longer meets the threshold, so therefore all their votes then get reassociated with the second choice, third choice, and so forth, that is outside of the voting system, and that would be something that the city would have to procure and run.

At one point here, you uh what was said is correct.

You know, we're basically vendors in this situation here, and it is your election, you you know, you kind of run it, you you you know, you make sure it.

If you want to, there is another option.

If you want to come on to the state ballot, that is always an option, uh, and that would decrease costs.

We because we then would just put the city's election on our ballot, uh, it would just increase it for this area here, just the length of the ballot.

But our sh actually we would have all the election judges hired, the polling places, and all the equipment would all be already incorporated in our system because we are going to put that on regardless.

And but the one thing is you would have to you know abide by when we have you know early voting, when we have election day on both counts.

Uh and you would not be able to do any ranked choice voting or outside the scope of our normal processes because we would just tabulate it at the county level, the county would then just produce the results at that point there.

Uh but yes, anything outside of that is more like you know we would be help facilitate, but at the end, it is your election and you bear ultimate responsibility for it.

Yes, please.

Thank you.

Um so I can understand how a system like rank choice voting might uh throw what we currently operate with out of whack being a little more unique than any other election style in Maryland.

How would open primaries be detrimental to that?

That feels like a smoother change.

So uh that change may be coming a lot sooner uh for us uh for 28.

Uh it seems that uh the General Assembly is looking at and is passing this idea of allowing unaffiliated voters to uh affiliate on election day or during early voting.

So it's not an open primary in a sense that you know, kind of like everyone votes for everyone.

Uh the only thing that we would be able to say is if you want to go into a complete open primary, we would treat it almost like the unf nonpartisan school board elections.

So right, like so in other counties, because this one I still think we run by district here, right?

Yeah, so district.

So but basically when you have a primary election for school board, if there's more candidates than office saw, and you have to double it, so it's uh like if it's vote for one, it would have to have three candidates to whittle it down for the primary.

But basically at that point there, everyone has that ballot.

Uh, unaffiliated can come up and vote on that particular election there.

That's something that would have to be worked out.

I don't want to commit to saying that it can be done.

There would be processes to probably work through mental, you know, uh technologically on that front there.

Uh but there is kind of a an open system already that that occurs.

And would something like universal mail-in voting have similar impacts, or is that something that since we already have experience with it could be accommodated with the if you wanted to go to an all-mail ballot?

Yeah, but say hypothetically nothing changes with the overall structures or partisan style, it's just everyone gets a ballot, and then we're also open on election day for if you want to do it in person.

So if you're if you want to come onto our ballot, you can't do an all-mail because you know you would have to abide by our rules, which would be you know, we would have a permanent mail and ballot list, people can go on that list, but they would if they're you know wanting to vote in person, we would still have all the early voting sites and as well as the uh election day sites.

If you wanted to do it as an all-mail ballot election for the city of Annapolis staying off cycle, then that is something that we would be able to hope talk to to our vendor that does our mail ballot program for you.

You can I I think that there are procurement laws where you can piggyback off of our contract at the same rate.

But again, we would probably we would give you the list of all your voters, right?

As provided, uh and then you would talk to the vendor itself, uh, and then the vendor would be communicating with you for the the bill and then the the mailing out the ballots.

Uh we would then be able to even provide possibly some drop boxes as well for you, but I think you have your own drop boxes here, you know, because I saw them are around in the last election.

But yes, like we we've done that with uh the city of Rockville, where we give them we give them a list of like here's all your registered voters, they then talk to their vendor and the vendor and the city uh then work out the time when the ballots are to be mailed and the schedule.

And one final question Is there any way that we can sync up with the state's universal mail, not universal, I'm sorry, uh permanent mail-in list, because that did cause a lot of confusion during this most recent election.

People had signed up for uh permanent mail-in registration for the federal and the state elections, but during this most recent city election, they uh didn't get their mail in because they didn't realize that we had to request it separately.

Is there any way that we can get that synced?

Uh because I do feel like that is at least a very easy yeah, that's probably probably the easiest of fixes.

Uh I would have to say uh it's an interesting question in a sense, right?

Because at one point here, what you're trying to say is we want to get onto your list and you're in theory telling me what to do, which is a city telling a state agency, which is kind of a stranger, like legally speaking, like right, like uh, but I think overall I think that maybe we even just have like some enabling legislation that says if a city wants to sync up their voters that are like something I think we just might we might need enabling legislation at the while they're in session to kind of just say if a city wants if you know wants to have its voters who are on the permanent mail and ballot list to receive mail and ballots, you know, immediately like they would notify the state board before giving the list or something like that.

We can work out the the the legislation portion of that, but I I think it would probably require legislation, but I've I I'll be happy to kind of like technically doable but would require legislation.

Right, right, exactly.

I mean, like basically we have your voters, like we have the the 25,000 in the the the voter list here, and we have who's signed up.

Basically, it's just creating another checkbox that says for the or when we give you the list, here's everyone that was on the permanent list.

Right.

You know, you need to contact you know our vendor to then have them mail out your the mail and the the mail and ballots to them or something to that effect, you know, like or or if it's something where yeah, we can kind of or like the city passes it and then as we give you the list, we would break it down and saying here's your 25,000 plus, and then a separate category is here's everyone who has already required or asked for a mail and ballot.

So it's there, we have to just kind of figure out how to how to get it done for you.

Sounds like we need a trip to the state delegation, eh?

Thank you.

So for the immediate, then because that sounds like that may take some time with the restraints of session almost kind of ending.

Um for that very question of syncing voter roles.

Um, how often do we sink our voter roles and what's the accuracy uh surrounding it when we say that we have about 25,000 uh voters?

And I asked this question for many reasons.

One of them is a concern of sending mail and ballots uh automatically to people's homes uh was that uh some homes were receiving five ballots and only two residents lived there at the time, and they're concerned that uh for security purposes, um as as we've heard a lot with uh the voter suppression um or questioning tactics that were being uh thrown out there uh that we can't trust the process because they're sitting in ballots on behalf of other people.

So can you maybe just address that a little bit uh for our voter roll syncing?

Sure.

Um so uh one uh voter roles we follow, and you know, David could probably also explain this one as well.

We follow state and federal laws on how to remove a person or cancel a voter.

And this is a very detailed process.

So you know, as people, you know, this is not something where once we get notice or someone walks in our door here and says, hey, this you know, this person doesn't live here or something like that, like that doesn't automatically cancel a voter because at the end here, this is a constitutional right.

You know, the right to vote is a very sacred right.

So we have to be this is something that it's we have to be absolutely certain about.

And there's strict procedures about it.

So one of the things is that we send out vote notification cards to these houses.

If they come back to us, right, then they become, you know, on a process to become an inactive voter, they then will have to wait two federal elections uh to be then rem basically removed off the list.

This is in federal law.

We have other uh avenues too, which we're a part of Eric, which is the electronic registration information center that helps us find out if individuals have moved out of state, uh, you know, or deceased.

Uh so they use national change of uh address.

Uh so this is a multi-state conglomeration to help us make sure our roles are up to date.

So if people get mail in at their home and we you know specimen ballots or anything like that, and they're not there, we it is incumbent on them to send it back to us because at that point there, then we can start our processes on this process here.

Uh if not, you know, we think that that is still a valid address.

You know, we work with MVA uh to make sure that we get the most up-to-date roles.

Uh we work with the Department of Health as well to see if everyone who has died that is over the age of 16.

So yes, the process is there, the you know, the roles are you know, making sure that the accuracy and David and his team there, we get the list, we give it to them, and they put it into the system and making sure it's there with mail and ballots going to homes.

Now, you know, and I'm um I'm just speaking now for the state on this one here, not you know, but we have the ability to track that mail that entire time.

So when it leaves my vendor and their shop, we can see it throughout the system when because there's you know scans that it's okay, it's now at this processing center, this processing center, we've actually seen it go to the person's, you know, we know when the per when it gets delivered to your mailbox.

We go, yep, you got it on this date, or you can call us.

And we you can actually track your ballot on our website throughout the the process.

Addition, if you put it back into the mail system, we can see that it got picked up at this post office, was now processed at this center here, and is now getting delivered over to David.

Uh so again, you can track your ballot.

With that, not only do you have the ability to track it, you know, on the with the website, we tell you, you know, we send out texts, we go, you know, to your phone, the bail the ballot's coming, so now you're on the lookout for it.

And if you haven't requested it at that point, they're like, hey, wait a second, here, I just got a text from dot gov here.

I might call the state board of elections.

Second, once you've received your ballot, right?

You vote it.

Once David gets it, and it gets scanned into the system immediately there, we send out another text saying, we have now received your ballot to that individual.

So now that person now has confidence that they have now gotten it.

And then finally, we actually scan it when it gets canvas because at one point here we go like this, it has been counted.

So now you know that you don't have to go in front or go in person to vote because though the entire process is there.

So it's been open and transparent, and there's security measures throughout the entire process to make sure that that you know it's getting delivered to the right address and it's coming back to to the state board or with to the local board at this point here.

So if you do go to an all-mail election here, uh we can help with that and making sure how you track it and the systems that we use.

Uh, but that would be you know something that we would help facilitate and be more technical advisors for you on that than you know, you actually doing it because like again, we have our contract, you have to have your contract with them and everything.

Okay.

Um, yes, do you do you have a question?

Oh, yeah, please.

Yeah, we have many questions.

Sure, yeah.

David wanted to add to any of that, yes.

Yes, D.

Just to just a note, in 2025, we replicated as much of that process as we could at the local level, but um that's not something that we can do at the local level for your elections when they're a standalone election.

So that's a that's you know, it's like early voting and this enhanced communication that I mentioned, those are features that you get with the statewide election that comes with the package.

So please, assistant attorney.

I was just gonna ask uh Ashley Runner, assistant city attorney, if there's any way to make the city election less complex.

You've talked about how it's gotten more complex over the years.

Is there anything we could make it less less complex?

I mean, and you might not have an answer to that.

I was just curious if you had any thoughts.

You can go first.

You go first on that one there.

Uh I mean, well, I guess uh I mean uh elections are getting more and more complex.

I mean, that's just the nature of elections here.

You know, people it's it's not as easy as just saying, oh, okay, like I I put my you know a paper ballot and I you know stick it in there and go forward with it.

I I think the problem with it is you know I've seen municipalities, you know throughout the state.

Some are just literally like in this room with a glass box where people like it's because it's like 50 people in the town, you know, like you know they dump it, it's still the same way, right?

Like you're a 25,000, you know, population here.

This is you know a community that's you know bigger than a couple of counties on that front there.

So, you know, it is not something that you have you know, campaigns that are you know highly financed.

There's TV at like money is being spent, so as it's going to be a part of your processes.

So it's not gonna be cheap.

No, I was just thinking more like if we synced up with the state cycle versus being off-cycle, would that help at all?

If you sync up with us, that would probably well, it would relieve headaches for I know for the the local board of elections there, because then they wouldn't have to do stuff on the on the off-cycle there.

Uh I mean, it would you wouldn't have to buy ballots, you wouldn't have to buy you know additional equipment, you you know, you wouldn't have to worry about all that stuff.

It would just be a part of the process.

Uh but at the same time, you're also now uh abide biding by state laws.

So you I have to say this, you lose some of your independence on that front there.

So I just want to say, like, you know, that's that's the balance here, right?

Like you come on board, it's cheaper, but you lose all your independence on how you want to do we I know we talked a little bit how much money we do spend.

Is that 700 we spend about it's a lot, it's gonna consistently in the um Yeah.

I would sound it from when we started in our in 2009 in 2017, I think it was a five thousand dollar fee that the charge that the county was charging to the to the city, but as it came to uh as it came to came to be we weren't legally allowed to do that.

Um so now it's about 220,000 for the two elections that we just had in 2025.

Total total 220,000 for the 2025 elections, correct.

Between the uh primary and the general for the state, both for your cost to the state and then your cost to the county.

the to the city but as it came to uh as it came to came to be we weren't legally allowed to do that um so now it's about 220 000 for the two elections that we just had in 2025 total total 220 000 for the 2025 elections correct between the uh primary and the general for the state both for your cost to the state and then your cost to the county just want to say our new voting system just to give you a concept here uh is uh over a hundred million dollars that's what that's how much it cost me to to buy a new voting system for the state of Maryland the poll say that again oh look the poll all the the equipment that you're gonna use not in this election but in 28 is over a hundred million dollars okay all the equipment yeah that's how much and and the poll books that's uh another 50 million dollar contract that's just I just want to start like like the this is the scope that uh like right you know that we're dealing with here that like that's how much this equipment and the the software and all the certifications that the that these companies go through to give us this equipment that has been you know EAC certified which is the election assistance commission certified sorry you know and moving it forward like all that stuff to make sure that it was all safe and secure and everything like that's the I just want to be like that's how much it costs us to start buying and procuring all this system.

And you're you're referring to not our city elections.

No no no I'm just like yeah right just like the other like 100 million dollars yeah yeah we're not buying that stuff did did you want to say anything madam clear yeah um I was just gonna say um basically if anybody asked me since I've been doing this longer than anybody on the city side I just think it's a very simple fix and it would make the the majority of the taxpayers happy if we would jump onto one of the elections it would there would be no cost to the city voters or a minimal one and we change our code section and strike the whole thing and just put refer to the Maryland state article on elections one line save the taxpayers 2200 we might get more votes might get more people to come out and vote.

You don't know but I'm just saying it saves money and so if the goal is to save money then we might need to look at moving in that direction because if they are saying that we're gonna need a vendor to do that we're gonna need to have have to have an MOU with the state with the county and also possibly hire an additional vendor our election for the election for 2029 is going to be more than 2200 too to see how much would it be with us going to the state or um the presidential um election as well as it would be uh for us to just keep it on our own with the additional cost that may come um because it's also we're gonna pay those taxes out of the way um at the state uh or um the city uh taxpayers would have you i mean the money's coming out either way it's just a matter of how much and um the other personalized it is can can I also say that um our election office is actually three people yeah three and we don't stop doing our regular jobs when we have an election in the city or four people basically I'm sorry actually but we don't stop our regular our regular work all of the election things are in addition to so we would need some more staff right to accommodate the changes because something's gonna fall the cracks if we don't have states I know all of them uh the best questions we don't want to hold you all night if you are kind of here um and we could of course ask Judy when she comes some more questions but this isn't very important um so we appreciate you all please thank you Mr.

Chairman um so I'd like to take a step back um can you explain to me again your exact roles sure I'm the state administrator of elections so that means uh I I am the person that is in charge of overseeing and administering state elections uh for Maryland so all the policy initiatives from the state come from my office and then we I oversee the 24 boards of election including Anarondo County okay thank you um I'm the director of the Anrotal County Board of Elections so I'm in charge of actually executing the project plan and making sure all of our I's are dotted and T's are crossed and that we're following all the rules regulations and laws that Jared is putting out through the state board of elections okay um the deputy director which means if he's bat me and I'm robbing okay that's probably the easiest way to say that.

That's probably the easiest way to say that.

So at the risk of embarrassing myself, you two are volunteers.

No.

No, no, they're all everyone's paid.

Are you your county employees?

No.

We're state employees.

So the Anarondo County Board of Elections is a state agency that's fully funded by the county.

Yeah.

So we're sort of in that middle ground, that gray area between being in the state or being in the county.

But for the purposes of your election, we're almost like a vendor.

So we're all we're selling you the Maryland State Board of Elections certified and approved method of conducting an election.

Okay.

Right.

So I promise I won't take you back to the beginning of 1776.

But what happened?

Was it 2000 and uh 13 elections in Annapolis?

That didn't go well.

Oh nine.

In 2000, I can't speak to the specifics of it.

Um that was almost 20 years ago.

But in 2009, I know they were there was a disagreement between who reimbursing this county for their expenses and the board at that time, uh, which is different from the board that we have right now, but the board at that time elected that they weren't going to participate in any future elections.

So in 2013, uh we just gave the uh gave the voter registration list, and then I believe Regina can probably answer specifics about this election.

Or I can.

Or that's if you don't mind.

We were at the unheated rec center that is now those fancy condos for four or five days in a row until about 4 a.m.

in the morning.

Back to the case.

And then we came back at 8 a.m.

in the morning.

And it was run by minimal staff as volunteers.

And we literally were there like all day.

We didn't, we sat in chairs that we pulled out of like surplus, and it was horrible.

And we had to it it took forever.

And it we got through it, but it was probably the most miserable election I have worked.

So what change in 13 we had to do it by ourselves.

So it's the city of Annapolis staff ran the election without correct the county or the state.

Without any whistles or bells.

We're talking it was mostly I think paper.

Yes, we have lots of paper.

All right.

So going forward, what is the city's options for the 29 elections?

Well, actually, let me say what what are our options?

Yeah, let me say 29.

What are the options for the 29 elections if we stuck with the course for every four years?

Is it is it to do the same and something else?

I just have to say that there 29 is like too far out because um the legislature passed a bill that states that if the city doesn't coordinate with the state within 18 months prior to our election, they don't have to help us at all.

Isn't that kind of what that happened?

We received something the state stated there's an 18-month period that we had to notify.

Yes, something within 18 months.

We have it on our new calendar um that was passed about two years ago, and they said if we didn't notify the state administrator by a certain time that they had no obligation to assist us in future elections regarding the machines.

So there's one law that says basically if you want to come onto our ballot, I think you have to notify us nine months before the primary election.

And then right, if you want to procure if you want to get on this the calendar, I don't know about I I have to double check about the 18 months.

Uh about that, but basically for 29, these are your options in a sense.

If you want to do a vote by mail, that's you you have the right to do a vote by mail, and that's 100%.

We will give you the list.

So at the end of the day, we you will always give you the list of all your voters.

Okay.

Now how you want to do your election is now incumbent on you, right?

So you have all your options there.

But if you want to use our equipment, right, which is a scanner or the ballot marking device, let's just say, because that's for disabled voters, so everyone can use that.

Uh that's where you would engage with an MOU with us, right?

And then we would lease it out to you at a certain cost.

Uh David would then have an MOU with you as well, which would be for a certain amount of technical support for that equipment.

Or whatever you want to engage with the Board of Elections then to do to help uh you know, at one point canvas your results as well.

But you have that those options there for 29.

Uh, because you can run it as you know, an in-person election with mail, an all-mail election.

Uh if you want to then join the state ballot, you'd have two options then.

One of them, and this is we've done this in the past with Baltimore City, because Baltimore City was in an off election year as well at one point there.

It was in between the presidential and the gubernatorial election years.

They had to pass a resolution which basically said one term was extended for five years, and another term was expensive was shortened to three to get them back on the right schedule of four years from that point forward.

So if you would if you were thinking about joining, say the state ballot, it would be for 30, and you would have to extend this term to an extra year, and then the next term would be shortened by a year, so that you would then be on that four-year cycle.

But that's something that you you that's an that's another option that you would have, but that's something else.

But again, then you're on my schedule and then the election.

Uh you you don't get to select where you would want to pull, you know.

Right now, you get to select your polling locations.

You wouldn't.

Like the the local board would.

And then it would be go to the state board for that approval.

Like I said, at that point there, you're then just like you're not you're just an office on my on the ballot, not you know, uh having any sway as to locations or anything like that.

Well, you could, but you just have to go in front of the local board of elections when they make their election plans as to where you would want placement of polling places or uh early voting centers.

But uh yeah, for 29, I would say that's about it, right?

I mean, vote by mail or just a regular election.

And when do we need to make that decision about the 29 election?

When do you need to a no by?

And then I'm gonna ask you when do you need to know by?

So for 29, I would say, I mean, it's your election, so we would just be a vendor on that.

You know, we that's an off-election year for us.

The equipment would be available.

Like I wouldn't we wouldn't have an issue with that.

If you wanted to do a vote by mail system, I would say that you would want to make sure there's ample opportunity for the the printing and then the mailing and then allowing people to get it into the ballots.

So we allow 45 days, 43 days, you know, for our first batch to start going in there, but that's all on you then how you want to run a uh say a vote by mail system.

Uh, but if you want to run a regular election, I would say you know, just enough opportunity to kind of start telling us your dates, and you know, we would be able to make the equipment available that you would need and the amount of equipment that you would want for it.

Can you can you explain to me what you mean by if you're gonna run your election?

Because you ran the 25 election.

Do we have a choice?

Right?

Well, at the at the end here, and I think this is where like this is where the the push and pull come into effect here.

The city of Annapolis, in a sense, you you know you run the election, right?

Like it is your election.

I have no legal responsibility on it.

There is nothing that I would say that like it's not like I come in there and say your campaign finance, we had all those early on.

You make the determination the local board, you know, you're renting our equipment, but at the end, you know, if there's a dispute, if there's problems, it's with the city of Annapolis, it's not with the Anarundal County making the election.

And I think that's kind of the where it is.

Like you it that's why David kept on saying, like, we're a vendor in a sense.

Like you hired us, this is what we gave you.

And then if you know, if there's issues or anything like that, it's you know, it's it's the city's election.

Like yeah, like so it would just be like hiring any sort of vendor if you had a problem.

So Gina, I I don't I don't want to take up a lot of their time while we're talking to you, but the timeline we can talk about later.

I guess I guess where I'm zeroing in now is risk.

So what I hear you saying is you are a vendor and Annapolis runs the elections, and what I hear our ace saying is that she has a full-time job, and the team has a full-time job.

So would you be willing to take on the question of should we be augmenting the city of Annapolis staff with election expertise?

Or do we have that in-house from a capacity and expertise standpoint?

And I'll open it up to anybody that wants to take that question on.

And can we take it a little further if you don't mind?

Uh, would it make sense for us?

Uh, because I'll just be straight up about it.

We are looking to expanding our board of supervisive elections that possibly five members.

I'm gonna push for nine members, and I think that's to put to provide some more support for our staff.

Um, and so uh with that being said, what are you um what would you say to us maybe having some more support from the state, but maybe uh directly to help during the elections, would that be possible if we had another staff or person or two uh that was housed with us uh during election season?

Can can I just say what do you mean when you say support for us?

So there's more stuff.

I was gonna say personally, love the board of supervisors of elections, but they're not support.

They're not, they don't they're not doing the day-to-day research, they're not doing the day-to-day coordination.

The board does help as like an authority figure to run the election, but they don't provide support.

No, they don't provide like if we're looking that like we need to stack up for elections, a bigger board is just gonna in my personal opinion create more issues.

Yeah.

I don't I five would be helpful for quorum reasons, but trying to to have still only have three staff people in-house trying to now coordinate nine people on a board would make things harder, not easier.

So just uh just the note, uh don't believe your supervisor your board of supervisors of elections is paid, they're all volunteers it's yeah, I mean we're running an election that that's why I asked you why you were if you were a volunteer.

So I want to say this here.

So like we have a staff, and David has a staff, I have a staff, and during an election year, we ramp up, we have a staffing contract that goes out there and hires additional people.

Not this is not even just election judges that go out there, right?

Like we actually go out, and this is where they become temporary county employees and additional people to help us administer the election between voter outreach, you know, programs, but just also making sure the equipment gets out.

So at one point here, you know, yes, three people might be sufficient in an off year because I don't know how much like reporting you have or anything like that, like for campaign finance, but as you get into an election, the calls, the volume of it all could be is overwhelming.

I mean, to that thing there, where a staffing contract, you know, would be needed to help supplement uh the staff.

And we do it on the the state level here.

I mean, just you know, we have a call center so we can help relieve just uh so that we're not constantly getting inundated with certain calls here.

Uh are there is their ability to use new technology?

Yes.

Oh, I've I've kind of started to go down that road, especially with chatbots, but let me just say this elections are usually complicated, and you want to make sure that the information is correct, and you know, every if if even if the chatbot gives out you know 90% of the correct information, you never want to have that 10% get wrong information because it's it's a voting, you know, it it's it's a different concept.

Like we have to be 100%, like this is you know, uh if you're at 90%, that's great for almost nine for every other business, not elections, right?

Right?

Because then you guys are gonna be like, by the way, 10% of my population didn't get the right information and it cost me the election, or like did it this way, and that's that's not how we have to operate.

So to that point, is your level of confidence in in the Annapolis elections higher or lower if we are off years or or if we're on an even year.

I don't want to comment.

I I think that your staff has done a fantastic job.

Uh, you know, I mean, every election has got its difficulties.

I know that the last election had some difficulties as well, but you know, you know, they've they've managed it through it.

You know, it it at one point here, I just think that what I'm hearing is universal in a sense, they need more staff to help with it, and you know, the board itself is not the staff it's the bodies to help with like getting it around coordinating with it, uh, because as an election gets closer and closer to election day, that is you know, all encompassing.

And if they have other jobs and other duties, that something's gonna break and something will fall through the cracks, and elections are a zero-sum game.

So at the end of it, either you have a winner or a loser, and you know, the losers are usually get upset, especially if they something fell through the cracks and they felt like that would cost them the election.

Right.

Okay, then we think the assistance that it would say I just to the staffing question.

Um, I just wanted to add that this is uh part of an explicit conversation we have during budget development time.

Um as we uh get closer to an election, you know, obviously the the elections budget in off-ears is different than it is when we're gearing up for and and having an election.

And so, you know, from the from the budget standpoint, part of um you know, part of our task is to is to listen with open ears about um what the needs are and to try to be a um to work in those needs um during the election years so that so that the um the staffing is there.

Obviously, during this last election, um those costs did change because of the the um legislation at the state that changed what the relationship looked like with respect to the machines themselves.

Um that is part of that is part of our budgeting task is to we do we do do some ramp up um as elections come up.

Well, I I'm trying to differentiate though between our staff and what you provide.

Yeah.

Well, uh for us, we we spent about 150,000 on staff to make this election happen.

Uh what we provide is we provide all the infrastructure for the election essentially.

So you hired you we hired something like 120 election judges.

Uh so our team contacted them all and scheduled them for their training classes, and then we have people that train election judges that we work for us full-time.

So uh we conducted the training classes.

We had four staff to um train all the election judges, make sure they were ramped up.

Uh then on election day we had uh you had uh eight polling places, one for each ward.

So we had uh about eight EFS in the morning to make sure everybody was supported, and then during the day we ramp down to four EFS, and then to close, we ramp back up to eight.

Uh so we had eight folks that were uh monitoring your polling places at various points throughout the day to make sure everything went smoothly.

Uh then during the uh canvassing process, um I think you had uh we had something like 10 canvassing teams, so that's 20 bipartisan teams.

So we locate the canvassers, we schedule them, uh contact them.

We have because we hire canvassers every election year, we have a roster of more than 300 people that are uh willing to do it, and we we only hire people that live in Annapolis, so all of your election judges and all your canvassers were Annapolis folks.

Um and then we teach the canvassers how to canvas what they're doing.

Um, and then we also support Annapolis's board as they work through the quiet work through questions that come up and just all the incidental um you know, the tasks that come up and all the things that you don't anticipate, like there's construction on West Street, so now we have to make sure there's signage to guide everybody to City Hall through a different route, something like that.

You know, there's all kinds of things that just come up.

Got it.

So we get that from you for 150,000.

Correct.

If we were to join an even-year election, would we still pay you 150,000?

No.

No, because it's part of you're already doing it.

Yeah, we're already doing it.

So there's nothing like Jared said, the Annapolis race is just become a contest in the ballot on the ballot.

So there's, you know, it all gets folded into what's already happening.

Which is the earlier conversation that we would save that that's what Gina was pointing out, is we would save that money.

But and I think Joe, what you were saying was when we when we do that with your election, we gotta follow your rules.

We gotta do your elections.

Right.

So when it comes to mail in uh universal mailing or whatever, if we join you, we got your rules.

If we stay odd years, we can create our own rules.

Yes.

Which would include ranked choice voting.

Right.

So if we were opted to go to ranked choice voting on odd years, maybe would you all provide that expertise to advise how to do ranked choice voting, or would that be on the city staff responsibility?

It would be on the city staff.

Yeah, the city staff.

Yeah.

So we'd be on our own.

Because we don't have that expertise.

There's no, you know, we can I think I'm not even sure if there's one jurisdiction that does ranked choice voting.

Maybe Tacoma Park does Tacoma Cart does it.

You can call to Tacoma Park.

Uh, you know, I mean, basically, so Montgomery County and for that election, uh I think uh I've talked to the counterpart for that you know David's uh counterpart out there at the end there, the support that he gives to Tacoma Park is literally I think like a letter a letter opener because they didn't have uh you know how they did their ballots or something like that.

But outside of that, it is all their own election.

Would you advise us?

Would you advise the city of Annapolis to go that route as from a risk standpoint?

Listen, I I think that you know I uh uh advise is a tough word here because I don't want to like say like I'm trying to like dictate like how I want you to like, or like to lose your independence and everything else.

I think overall, if you join a the state ballot, the amount of voter education, the voter outreach is far superior than what you would be able to do, you know, with turnout.

I mean, like you can see the numbers, right?

People know on election day for state office when state, you know, June 23rd or in November, or if you join on the presidential year, right?

You probably a presidential year, because then you don't have to compete with the state offices.

Uh the turnout is way higher than in an off-year election.

I mean, that's just that's just it.

Uh and you would have the state office, the state campaigns, everything else that would be supplementing whatever the city wants to do about its own elections as well to for voter outreach in the community.

Uh as a person, you know, I don't live in Annapolis, live right outside of it, but I mean like you can see like that would be something that would be a beneficial to everyone here.

The cost would be way less because you know, the state is already doing the election and you you come on it.

But like, right, like you're not gonna come and tell like me and say we want to do an a vote by mail or we want to do ranked choice voting, and I'd be like, Nope.

Like that's that's off the table.

You know, unless the state starts doing it and mandates it, uh, you know, you're not going to, you know, be on uh like off to the side.

But you know, so that's where I kind of want to say, like uh how I advise you is like the fiscal part of the situation is your fiscal costs go way down to zero, but your independence also joins that.

And and that's a decision that I I leave to the to the governing body here because uh you know uh I don't want to come in here and say, no, you have to join.

That's you know, so that's why I'm I'm in hesitant about like saying that.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Absolutely.

And will there ever be a time or do you foresee it being a time where we would be um kind of quote unquote forced or um encourage that this is really our only option to sync ourselves with the state?

You can talk to the delegation because they're the only ones that would be able to force you to to come on uh onto my ballot.

If not, you're an independent agency, you know, right?

You're your own governing body at that point there.

Uh but uh, you know, listen, uh I always like elections, I always want to support elections and move forward with it, you know uh as things progress, you know, we we're always kind of there to help with the equipment, but at the same time here, like you know, David and I both have a different job and we have a different mission and mandates, so we have to make sure that those are always taken care of first.

And the city election is something that we would help support as a vendor to make sure that it goes smoothly, but it's you know, that's not our mission.

You know, your that's the mission of the city.

Did you um I know you had mentioned something about that 18 months of notice that we may have received?

Um so there's nothing coming soon where we will have to be in sync with the state.

I'm just gonna make sure that that is true.

Okay, so we can remain for the next years until something does come through uh to have our own independent elections.

Okay.

Um just making sure that's the people know.

Um there's so many questions, but but we're at eight o'clock, and I don't want to hold y'all uh much longer.

Um so maybe we can provide some to Trudy, but uh there's so the USPS they changed um a little bit of their so that that's a concern of uh if we do the mail and ballot process with their stamping and confirming when uh ballots had been received.

Um how do you all see that maybe changing uh the mail and ballot process for us in our state, and even if you know of any how it would impact us as a city if we do the more mail in or just our regular mail in because we saw an issue in this last election with how the mail and ballots were.

Uh we might have discovered that issue.

We might have been the ones that brought the cat out of the bag.

Um it is a concern because without knowing it, we did we did have a period where then the post office wasn't delivering mail to an atlas at all.

Um yeah, that was uh that was a pretty uh and that's something we have to watch, and it's something that now we know we have to watch, and something that we have to emphasize for voter education, uh particularly if you're gonna vote by mail to try and use our drop boxes uh as much as possible because that eliminates that risk that exists with USPS.

And on that note, David, I just have to say thank you very much for assisting us with um getting the ballots through the post office to your office.

We appreciate that because we ran to several post offices trying to figure out how to get that done, and you guys made a call, so we appreciate it.

Thank you.

So I think that that also goes back to the idea of tracking and making sure you're the envelopes are tracked.

And yeah, I mean, the postmark rule is something that we're we're actively mitigating and making sure that people know that you know vote, you know, as soon as you get the ballot.

But if you want to wait closer to election day to use the drop box because those are you know making you you know that they're getting picked up by an election official and it will be counted.

So if you wait on election day to put it in the mailbox, you're you might lose the postmark role.

Okay.

And so the infrastructure's not in place for ranked choice voting.

I heard you say that the county wouldn't be able to support with something like that.

Um so then what would we do if we want to do ranked choice voting?

What what are our options?

Um if do you have have some that you're we we we'd essentially be on our own?

The we would still be able, my understanding is we would still be able to essentially rent the machines, but um the data that came out of those machines, we would have to contract with someone else to be able to digest that data that came out of the machines, and and we'd be on our own for the all the estimates.

Basically right, like we would spit out the totals, we would give them to you, we'd give you the extract, and then go, okay, and then you you would perform your canvas and start eliminating it and moving forward with it.

So based on your experience, when you and you said earlier that 100% is the only option of success.

90, 90 percent, 95% doesn't get us success.

What is the level of risk for us to do that?

Well, I mean, ranked choice voting is a is a is a tried and true method.

I'm not saying like there's other states that have it.

There's other there's programs that are out there.

You know, if you're looking for me to be the current expert on ranked choice voting, that's not like no no no, but I guess the thing is, right?

Like it it would require education, right?

It would require training, and it would require like understanding of the principles behind it and making sure you you you have the right vendor in order to do the software.

Uh right now there is no certification of the software on a federal level, but you can talk, but there are vendors out there that do this.

So, like Maine has a ranked choice voting program uh you know that uses like the very similar equipment that we have.

So they would be able to, you know, at least tell you how they do it, you know, and move forward with it.

Uh you know, there's other, I would say um avenues uh and organizations that would supply possible vendors and you know uh software programs outside of that as well.

New York City just had ranked choice voting, so like the there's examples of it existing and moving forward with it.

Uh it it but if you do go to ranked choice voting, the first thing is you have to also think about this is that your electorate doesn't necessarily know ranked choice voting.

And though if studies have proven if you do not vote all your ballot choices, you sort of start to lose your the influence or how people get elected.

So it was something where they've like in New York they were seeing drop-offs of like between the second and third and fourth choices because people weren't going all the way down the line there.

And as that occurred, uh like it had a disparage impact on the the results of the election.

Uh so that's something where if you do enter in this, there's a software cost for buying it, and then there's also an educational cost because you have to go around and tell what it means, how this gets done, and like why the second and third choices are important to fill out, because if you don't, then you're really basically not you know having a say in the election.

Yeah.

Okay.

Thank you.

All right.

So the last little bit here before we go, so when we talk about like non-citizen voting or um lowering the voter age, or um the balance automatically being sent to people's homes, um syncing the voter rolls um and things of that nature, uh, nonpartisan voting, uh, these are things that we can do independently, but if they're to be uh a future uh partnership, uh MOU or what have you, um how would that work?

I mean, do you would you I can answer the non-citizen part because uh so like other cities have done uh non-citizen voting, uh and the city the the those cities that have done that have to maintain their own voter registration lists.

You're not going to put a non-citizen on the statewide voter registration list.

You we will never and you will not move your voter registration list onto the statewide database.

We would give you an export of ours to co-mingle with your list at that point there, and then you would control your entire voter registration database.

Again, this is something that you would then be running your own election, who's eligible to vote, that that program and that database would be a hundred percent city-owned and city operated.

Uh if you want to do 16-year-olds, we have 16-year-olds that are able to register to vote.

We can give you that extract for it, but we're not gonna we're not gonna make them active voters.

We would give you the extract and say, here's all the 16 and 17-year-olds, you then would have to then have a separate database to make them active.

Because our database is mandated and will follow state and federal laws.

And you know, and it and it's that's that.

Do you have anything?

All right, um, please, if there are any final rules for free to share, but we will see you again sometime.

Y'all be best get home safely.

Thank you as well.

Thank you so much.

We have a lot of work to do.

It's the use Lord.

Um let's see here.

All right.

Um, if we can have uh this last part on our agenda, uh please, if you don't mind coming on up, uh Madam Claudia, Barbara to speak, ID5426, employee relations discussion.

If you can just introduce yourself, just share a little bit of why you're here or you know anything we can do.

Thank you.

Good evening, Mr.

Chair and members of the Standing Rules Committee.

My name is Claudia Barber, and I serve as the employee relations administrator in the City of Annapolis Human Resources Division, a position I have held for more than seven years.

My role as the employee relations administrator is to investigate employee complaints, mediate workplace disputes, and review personnel actions to ensure they comply with the city code and personnel policy.

That largely actually comes from my actual job description.

I appreciate the opportunity to appear before you today to discuss concerns regarding the integrity of the city's employee relations and workplace investigation proces.

These concerns affect employees across the city workforce, and not just black employees, not just marginalized employees, all employees of all races who often experience disparities or disputes in the workplace involving disdispline and complaint resolution.

Over the past two years, I have observed a troubling pattern involving employee complaints that include failures to follow the city code and hiring and promotion decisions, hostile work environments, retaliation against employees who raise concerns, and threats directed at employees, including an incident where an appointing authority allegedly threatened an Hispanic employee with immigration enforcement.

These allegations require independent and impartial investigation.

However, I have observed investigations being delayed, stalled, cases referred to outside law firms whose primary practice is employer defense and communications to employees suggesting that decisions have already been made before the investigations are concluded.

So when workplace disciplinary systems rely heavily on managerial discretion without clear policy standards, they can unintentionally create conditions that produce disparate outcomes across employee groups.

Public sector employment studies consistently show that black employees are more likely to experience heightened disciplinary scrutiny, extended investigations, and corrective actions, such as performance plans, even when performance indicators are comparable to those of their peers.

This is rarely the result of explicit bias.

More often it occurs when policies lack objective standards, clear oversight, and consistent enforcement mechanisms.

When systems rely on informal procedures, such as undefined performance improvement plans, inconsistent investigative practices, or unreviewed managerial decisions, the result can be a workplace enforcement environment, rather, where employees experience different outcomes under similar circumstances.

Transparnel policies and independent oversight mechanisms, therefore protect employees from arbitrary treatment, provide clarity for managers, and protect the city itself from unnecessary legal exposure.

Performance improvement plans are increasingly used without clear authorization in the city code or formal personnel regulations.

Many PIPs lack defined start or end dates, measurable performance benchmarks, or objective completion criteria.

This leaves employees under open-ended disciplinary scrutiny and places excessive discretion in the hands of individual managers.

All existing PIPs should be reviewed for compliance with city policy, and those implemented without authorization should be removed from personnel files.

Clear policies governing performance management and disciplinary procedures must be adopted.

As the employee relations administrator, my responsibility is to review personnel actions and investigate complaints to determine whether those actions are justified and consistent with the city code.

However, because I have raised concerns about discriminatory practices and improper personnel procedures, my ability to perform these responsibilities has been restricted.

My objective is compliance, fairness, and accountability.

Such a role could provide legal oversight of employee investigations, review disciplinary actions for compliance with the city code, ensure consistency in personnel practices, and identify legal risks before they escalate into litigation.

I'm a licensed attorney with more than 30 plus years of legal experience and seven years working directly within the city's employee relations system.

This combination of legal and operational experience uniquely positions me to help restore transparency and accountability to the city's personnel processes.

The City of Annapolis cannot maintain employee trust or public confidence if workplace systems lack transparency, consistency, and accountability.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Well, thank you for that.

I'll open up the floor if there are any questions first or thoughts.

Maybe let it simmer a little bit.

That was a lot.

Is this something that you can provide to us at all?

Is that a letter that you wrote up?

Is that something you can say?

We can provide uh statistic uh statistics that may give you an overview of the uh complaints and the ones that have not been resolved within the past six months or 12 months.

We can provide you with demographics on their race, we can provide you with uh demographics on you know uh their uh not just their their race, their sex, their age, uh, et cetera.

Uh so if you um uh wish to have that type of statistical uh data that is that is accessible and and should and can be made available.

Okay, yes, please.

So what's our formal process for when one of these complaints comes through?

Does it um go to your so it first goes to your office, correct, Ms.

Barlow?

It does.

It comes to our office, so I'm on the receiving end of a lot of complaints.

Now, many times I often get union grievances, which I defer to the union leaders to process through the union process.

Uh but the non-union persons, they they that are employees with the city, they would in fact come to the human resources office and discuss the matter with the employee relations administrator.

I would then sit down and give them a conversation about and caution them specifically about uh the dynamics of the of the situation, and that uh even though it's confidential in our office, uh, if we start in interviewing witnesses, we can't guarantee the confidentiality of the case.

So uh that process also starts with a complaint form, and I give them an opportunity to take the complaint form with them or fill it out right in my office.

Once they make the decision to file the paper complaint, reduce it to writing, we file stamp it, and that starts uh ordinarily the investigation process.

At that point, it should start.

What's okay?

So after the formal written paper complaint is put in, it's the investigation process.

What does the investigation process consist of?

Well, um, over the seven years that I've uh done investigations, um, I first get clearance from uh um the the HR director to uh say how do you wish to proceed.

So um uh and and again, we don't have an unlimited budget.

So we try to uh gather evidence uh by number one, if the complainant has witnesses, they have to identify them.

And once they are identify the witnesses, we start there with um uh interviewing uh persons uh that uh uh are relevant to uh the complaint.

And uh we have a lot of uh helpful tools and resources.

Um some people may not think at this through, but there are cameras in the finance office.

There are cameras in the city.

There are cameras at many areas with where we can actually pinpoint the actual date and time of the of the uh the incident and get great feedback.

Sometimes I get great feedback when I interview a witness and they said they were texting messages, and so I get text message information from those uh witnesses, and sometimes that turns the case.

Uh so um uh so that process uh involves me sometimes going on location, taking photographs of uh uh a fire engine or or whatever wherever uh I am, uh maybe department of public work taking photographs of a of a particular location of the uh public works uh uh place where uh the incident occurred.

Uh and I you know I take photographs as necessary and include that in my reports.

So that's the type of deep dive uh work that I do.

Uh and then I prepare the report of investigation.

The report of investigation uh usually starts with uh background information, then it moves on to findings of fact and uh conclusions, and then uh uh if uh necessary uh a recommendation.

So who does that report get passed off to?

Well, uh it usually at that point uh goes to the uh the uh the um uh the department head, if that department head uh uh has it it if it has if that department has touched, for example, if if the department of public works um uh had or had a complaint or something to that effect.

Uh so it would get to it often sometimes uh is addressed with the direct report, uh the the direct supervisor.

Okay.

And is there any formal process after it is handed off to the department head?

Do we have anything in code or written process where they must make an action, they must make a comment, they must take a meeting, or is it left to the discretion of the department head?

At this point, it it uh has been left to the uh discretion of uh the the department head and and in conjunction with conversations with human resources as recommended actions.

So it's usually a joint decision with the department head and the human resources director?

Yes.

Okay.

It has been in the past, yes.

Are and this is a question for the uh for Ms.

Buckland, um are we aware of other jurisdictions that have formal process written down um where there's required action that has to be taken, whether it's meetings for required commentary has to be has to be given or are we pretty in line with what other municipalities do in this situation?

I'm not sure I'm the best person to to answer that.

Um and just like in general, I'm I'm not gonna comment on personnel matters.

Okay.

So I will say we are in kind of a uh as legislators, we are in a unusual position because we do want to make sure that the city of Annapolis has a positive quality work environment for all of our cities, but we are uh by city law and I believe state law also influences this not able to directly intervene in personnel issues.

So what I'm trying to figure out is what can we do to the overall process of this?

Uh which is why I'm very glad you walked me through it to help standardize it, because having worked in businesses with an informal process and businesses with a formal process, I have seen how uh well there are opportunities to update the personnel rules and regulations.

That's yeah, absolutely.

And uh there are also uh opportunities to evaluate closely biased investigations, and that's where rules and regulations can uh come into play in in that area.

Well, I have a question.

Would we have the ability, excuse me, if you uh on the chairman, if you would we have then the ability, because it's it's right in line with what he's sharing, uh, to um investigate these cases from the past six to twelve months?

I mean, because can we do that?

Is that something we can do?

How would we go about that?

Legally, that's an executive function, not a legislative function.

So I would caution that city council members should not be actively involved in investigating open complaints.

Okay, so how do we, according to the code, when you know we do oversee employment management relations, all HR it's within our title.

How do we how do we get that information?

How do we make these changes without the information?

It it's not it's not a legislative role to uh to address open complaints.

You can, and it's an executive function.

If we need to update policies and procedures by all means, but that's again an executive process that the HR department should be doing in conjunction with the administration.

It personnel is not a legis open personnel issues are not a legislative function, and they shouldn't be discussed in open meetings.

So that goes into where I wanted to uh go into when it comes to the process.

So updates to the formal process of uh how to record document and proceed forward with complaints around discrimination or harassment uh or any other type of employee employer relationship, that would be handled all entirely through the executive.

Um the legislature would not be able to put into code or any type along those lines how that process is handled.

So there's a difference between the construction of the personnel regs versus how those regs play out in individual cases.

So within the city code, um there is a review provision for council.

Umce the personnel regs are um are constructed, they're conveyed to council.

There's a 45-day review period um where council has the ability to um introduce a resolution to make um to make changes to that.

Um and and if that does not happen, then at the end of 45 days, those regs become active.

So there's a is there's a review process that's outlined in the code at the personnel regs level.

But again, how those play out in individual cases is not something that is a legislative function.

I agree with that um assessment, not wanting to get involved in the individual complaints.

I see us as being able to help build comment and design on the overall structure to create a positive environment.

Umfortunately, when we start getting involved in individual cases, that opens up a lot of litigation problems.

Um I think what we are seeing is that the current process has created issues to put it mildly.

Um finding a way to formalize this process a little better, I think would be advantageous for the executive branch to move forward with.

And finding a way to formalize this process a little better, I think would be advantageous for the executive branch to move forward with.

That's what I was going to ask.

Absolutely even something as simple as requiring the department director to put a formal or HR to put a formal comment on it, whether that formal comment is we've investigated this issue and we determined that there is nothing here or if that formal in comment is after this investigation of the issue we determined that we need to discipline the harasser or anywhere in between.

I think that that is something that could hypothetically be done I don't want to dive even deeper because I'm not a HR expert by any means but I think what we've had people come forward with has shown that there does need to be some changes into the internal regulations of those process to formalize and structure it a lot better.

And I am trying to be very cognizant of our role as legislators versus the executive roles and how we can keep that wall separate because again opening things up to litigation is something we do want to avoid but we are seeing issues with how the current process is played out and shortcomings in it.

And to that extent um where in the code or is there any law where where can we find that law that says that we're not able to get data on cases within because it's just data.

I'm not you know we're not looking at so I think she laid out some point the city is not that big of an employer.

When you start pulling data with specifics it can become very easy to figure out who that person is.

For instance my office only has 10 people in it.

If you start providing things like race, age and gender you can pretty quickly narrow down who would be in my office.

So that's where when you're pulling data you have to be very careful because if it's a small enough office or small enough group and this is this is also comes under the public information act if you're able by the data to figure out who it is then you shouldn't be disclosing it.

So that's that's the problem honestly with the city now some of the deb bigger departments in the city might not have that issue but we have enough small departments that if you start pulling specific type of data you're going to figure out who that person is and then that complaint is has now been openly shared.

Okay yes if you don't mind so many employees come to me regularly asking why is misconduct allowed by supervisors and management and who is protecting the employees so the for example when a manager mishandles internal promotions how is the standing rules committee given oversight to make changes to that process that's a concern that many uh people can that somebody came to my office within the last week with an internal promotion issue the case has gone nowhere.

Just two years ago another person sat in my office with an internal promotion issue the case that went uh uh was not investigated at all so that's a concern and the you know you can make updates to the personnel policies and rules and and regulations to kind of rein in that type of uh of uh conduct now would you and there's two parts to this the first is would you in encourage or do you have any thoughts on us uh if this was done through a task force of some sorts those that have experienced or do know about employee re employment relations whether it's union members or what have you that could look at our rules and regulations and do I know this is really putting upon the HR department uh to do so but we can of course work around that but is that something you would encourage or do you bel because really it's under their purview.

This isn't done by any outside persons uh which I I would say creates bias in it uh so what would you recommend to that regard?

To make it as unbiased as prop possible yes the task force would be helpful uh serve it would serve a useful purpose okay and on the other uh note there can a motion be made to um investigate uh encourage our our executive um lead here whomever that may be in the mayor's office to investigate um the matters over these past six to twelve months that we're referring to is is that something that can be done I I I cannot and will not talk about internal personnel matters and and what you're you're asking is is to step into internal personnel matters and I if if we want to have conversations about what about updates to this to the to the personnel regs that's one thing but the the stepping into individual cases is not that's where that that's where that line is I I it if

our our executive um lead here whomever that may be in the mayor's office to investigate um the matters over these past six to twelve months that we're referring to is is that something that can be done i i i cannot and will not talk about internal personnel matters and and what you're you're asking is is to step into internal personnel matters and i if if we want to have conversations about what about updates to the to the to the personnel regs that's one thing but the the stepping into individual cases is not that's where that's where that line is i i if if the city council would like to be helpful I think what the focus should be is is is on the regulations my understanding is they are fairly old and outdated so I think a good first step would honestly be to be look to look at what we have now which I think is from like 2000 oh yeah 19 from the 1990s okay to look at those and start bringing those up to date I think that would be a good legislative first step to take something that is like 30 plus years old and and make updates.

Absolutely um because I think you you can only do as much as at to uh Miss Barbara's point like if the regulations aren't great then that's what you're working with.

So I would say first step is to take something that's from the 1990s um have it reviewed by we have new personnel in HR we're potentially going to get a new director um and have them start looking at overhauling those and then bringing those through the city code process where you guys get a chance to review them I think that would be the best first step.

Would a task force work at all for that or how would you I it depends who's on the task force um again you need to be careful if the task force is to look at the regulations as they stand alone and maybe suggest provide recommendations recommendations and you can find people who are knowledgeable about that perhaps but the task force role couldn't roll over to actually looking at open personnel issues.

Absolutely yes just the rules and regulations but I mean and that might be something like I said we've had a lot of um staff changeover in HR recently in human resources and that the director position is not filled so it might be something we want to wait for on that to some extent but again that's your discretion.

Do you have anything I appreciate the assessment from Ms.

Leonard I think when we get a new HR director we can stress as a committee um the importance of updating these regulations formally we can ask our new HR director when we hire them to come before the committee explain without getting into the specific personnel issues problems that we are seeing at this current time with the current rules and regulations and we can ask please update them please get us an update by a specific timeline but we do really need to be careful with towing the line on specific personnel issues even if that is um personally hard or painful for us um it's part of the machinery of government it's frustrating but it be that way um but if we can aggressively get these regulations updated we can prevent future harm so I don't know our timeline on HR direct on hiring a new HR director I'm assuming that is one of our priorities on bringing one on board uh our city manager is nodding so I'm optimistic that we can get one in soon and bring them forward and stress that we want to collaborate with them on getting these up regulations updated and making sure that we don't see these types of complaints in the future.

Yes indeed um do you mind us would we ask Cynthia to just begin to look into what a task force legislation could look like uh for us on uh the rules and regulations for when we get that HR director and it's not so that we can at least begin a foundation um on a team of experts or at least some people who are quite interested in in the know of what it looks like um to be in an appointment government um do you have anything else that you want to I was gonna say I do know I think the two recent hires have already started looking to some extent um this so I I think it is a known issue I mean you're you're welcome to make a recommendation as well but um I think the two new recent hires were made aware I mean it's been a it's been a law office issue that we've that the these regulations are old so I think they are already taking steps to make some corrections um and you can of course add your encouragement to that if you would like yeah I think this is crucial that this is done through a lens outside of just the city because when you allow for those who are enforcing or giving consequences to write the rules you know what happens uh that's quite clear so um having some people who uh can provide support outside of uh just us would be um I think beneficial for us yes please what I would personally recommend over a task force due to uh it being expedient is consultants uh I'm seeing a grimace at the fridge

Yeah, I think this is crucial that this is done through a lens outside of just the city because when you allow for those who are enforcing or giving consequences to write the rules, you know what happens.

Uh that's quite clear.

So um having some people who uh can provide support outside of uh just us would be um I think beneficial for us.

Yes, please.

What I would personally recommend over a task force due to uh it being expedient is consultants.

Uh I'm seeing a grimace at the phrase consultant.

I mean consultants are used in that manner and have been used in that manner um in the HR department.

Um but I don't have enough expertise to know.

I think we still get the benefit of outside neutral eyes, people with expertise in this issue who have seen what has worked in other cities and what has not worked.

And I think that that will be a lot faster than task forces, uh task forces are wonderful at giving us ideas for certain types of legislation.

Um, but things like these um moving quickly with the eye of an expert, I believe is more advantageous.

And maybe it an uh a person with consultant background in this could serve on the task force.

Uh that way the people's voice is still a part of it, and we can find people who uh have a background, maybe union experience or what have you.

Uh, because I think you just shared how we've used consultants in many of ways.

Uh and one of the consultants we used uh were tied to employment um what is it, managerial support.

What was that that you mentioned?

You said that one of the consultants that we use as a city is actually what was the bias there?

They may have been tied to the uh uh the HR uh uh staff in some way.

Well so yeah, this this should not be rushed, I think.

Um this is something that I know 1992 is a long ways of back in the day, I wasn't even born yet.

But I but I but um but I will say that if we can do um as much as we possibly can on this and it and bring in as many people because we just had people come here and present to us uh this issue uh at a city council meeting.

And so it's obviously already out there in the public, and we do uh truly appreciate uh y'all two for protecting us over there so we don't say too much and don't get us too caught up.

Um and we appreciate you coming today.

I think um Alderman Thorpe, you may have to be able to do that.

Thank you for the invitation.

Thank you for the invitation.

Yes, yes, um I'm very sensitive to uh so first of all, thank you very much for what you do.

And I'm very sensitive also to the city manager's points about not revealing any uh HR information that's inappropriate.

So I'm gonna ask you some data questions, and if it comes down to one or two, then I'm expecting the city manager to tap the desk and say, hey Frank, don't go there.

Um but if you could explain to me the the way you explain the process is when you have a case, you take it to the director and HR and the director work the case.

Is that right?

Well, I as the employee relations administrator in my uh beginning role, uh I did uh oversee the entire investigation process.

That's part of my job description.

Uh so uh that uh however it's things happen like um uh arbitrary controls over the over the um uh the investigation uh that um uh that that can be uh uh distinguished if, for example, that person doing the reports of investigation with working through a different entity like the mayor and city council versus the HR director.

I'm not saying that it's it would be totally unbiased, but the whole root of the issue is unbiased investigations.

We we don't want influence from people who have have relationships with other employees that want the want the the investigation to go in a certain direction, managers only.

That's the whole point by my raising the concerns about using outside law firms with employer defense specialties.

They they have been largely uh done in a very biased way where they they don't even do the full investigation and employees are angry about that.

They come back to me and they express their anger.

And what does your rules ask you to do when that happens?

Well, that's the point.

That's though those are the rules we need.

Those rules are missing.

Those rules are not there to put to put limitations on that situation if there are biases and the management uh acts on those biases and does something deplorable, like uh uh suspend somebody without pay, and it's not justified.

There are no there you need rules to bring that in.

So forgive me for asking, I did 28 years in the military, so we have a chain of command.

And so my question would be when when something like that happens in your area of responsibility, do you have the authority to take that issue to the director of HR?

And it does and and the next question would be is the director of HR, as your boss, right?

Right.

And then the director of HR take that to the city manager.

Well, uh, if I remember when I first investigated my some of my cases early on, um it had to go through the city manager because the first person I think I remember was a department director at issue that was accused of something.

So that case after I completed the report of investigation did go to the city manager.

So I but I I'm guessing I'm confused as to what the shortcoming is here.

So if you if in your role and your responsibilities, you don't believe that there's something that the if you believe something's amiss.

Right.

Do you have the authority to go to the director of HR as your boss and say this is a miss?

Whether the investigation I don't believe the investigation was accurate was was adequately conducted or it was adequately conducted, this is what we found.

I can I can do that, and oftentimes I do go to the HR director and say, wait a minute, uh this happened here, and so the the allegations that were made in the complaint can't be credible or I can weigh the credibility of the allegations.

Uh so um uh but in terms of of further direction, that's where we need the the parameters, the rules and regulations to protect the employee and also protect the employer.

So uh we need you know clarity in those rules so that uh people also are protected from retaliation, and that's one of the another big complaint that comes into our office, and it and it hasn't been investigated within the last six to twelve months.

Yeah, so and and I'm not trying to interrogate you, I'm trying to understand here.

So in the last six or twelve months, when you get an allegation of retaliation, in your rules, do you report that to the director of HR who reports that to the city manager?

And according to my job description, I am to resolve employee relations issues, including conducting investigations.

That's my rule, that's my role, mediating conflicts and facilitating resolutions and compliance with company policies and legal requirements.

That's in my job description.

So uh yes, but I own I can only go so far.

I don't have authority to fire anybody.

I don't have authority to implement discipline.

But you have the authority to report it to after you investigate.

To the director of HR?

Yes.

Yes.

And how many times have you done that in the last 12 months?

This is my question of stop me if if the answer is one and I'm zeroing in on a case.

I have not done it within the last six to twelve months, and that's been a restriction that was placed in a biased way by a manager.

What?

By a manager or your manager?

My manager.

And your manager was the director of HR?

Yes.

And the director of HR is no longer employed?

Correct.

Are you doing so you're saying that your duties are no longer what they're listed that you just shared with me?

And us?

The duties that you have are they don't align with that currently?

Correct.

Correct.

Correct.

I am not doing investigations, conducting investigations, mediating conflicts, and facilitating uh resolutions and compliance with company policies and legal requirements.

In this situation, they have been all outsourced or sent to outside law firms, and from what we can tell, the outside law firms are employer defense firms.

How much money have we spent on that?

Can we ask that question?

How much we've spent on these outside law forms and why we've used outside law firms when we have an employee here who does who does the work?

I cannot in this forum.

Does that mean closed session?

It means I would have to have a further conversations in my office, but I can't I can't answer that question here, given the well, can we please look into that?

Because that's that's costs now on the taxpayer that we're paying outside people.

Excuse me, let me take a breath.

Those are costs that taxpayers are playing paying when you are right here telling us that that is your responsibility.

Yes.

Now we can't get into the wheezes why that was taken off your plate or you know, uh in the bias way that you mentioned, but that is a major concern.

That needs to be uh we need answers to that.

So please um shift course.

Do you have you've been here seven years?

Yes.

Going on eight years.

Thank you for your service.

Thank you.

Um have you had any interaction um with the uh the city's Human Relations Commission?

Yes, I'm the staff liaison to the Annapolis Human Relations Commission.

Do any of do they provide you any advice or engagement in these types of investigations or anything like that?

Not city employees.

They normally handle complaints that come from the external world.

Uh it can be housing complaints, it can be employment discrimination, it can be I was mistreated in a restaurant, or somebody didn't wait on me properly, or you know, uh uh uh a housing discrimination issue.

So that would be consistent, I think, with the Office of Laws point of view that the Human Relations Commission deals, doesn't deal inside the city.

And and I would I would say we may want to look at the wording of the code.

Um because I could read it where it says act as a mediator to resolve disagreements in matters of human relations.

And what about the Civil Service Board?

Can we also touch a little bit on that too?

Well, the Civil Service Board is as I uh recall, I'm I'm I'm doing this from memory from from the code, and the Civil Service Board, I'm not convinced is fully staffed.

I think it may consist of uh more than three members, but right now it it only has three members.

And um uh I think that uh uh uh that they are required to uh schedule to to rule informally or formally on cases that come before them.

Uh so uh they could be disciplinary cases, they could be suspension cases, they could be um you know, similar matters if I recall correctly in the code.

Thank you very much.

Um wow, this is okay.

Are there any final asks that you have of us before we wrap this up uh for today at least, or anything that you want to leave on on the stocket for us?

Um, um I did mention in my statements troubling patterns.

I mentioned serious concerns uh regarding the integrity of the city employees' relations.

So putting that back on track is is helpful.

Uh but it but also what's important is addressing uh the updates to the rules and regulations and being mindful of the uh the employees that have gone through the complaint system within the last six to twelve months and has not received seen uh a fair and and equitable resolution of their cases.

Okay.

So the thing is is if outside contractors were used for these past six to twelve months, and we can't get any debt.

It's just it seems as if we're literally left out of an entire process, and it's not transparent.

Can you just give reassurance to us that what we know?

Yeah, again, personnel is not a legislative purview.

There's a reason you're left out of the process.

It's not part of your authority.

Um it doesn't mean perhaps other conversations come, but we can't have conversations like that in a public forum meeting.

We just legally cannot.

I there's legal restrictions on what I could say on what the city manager can say.

We can't have conversations of this nature in this sort of format.

And again, I would stress that yes, I know you the council or perhaps you in particular feel left out of it, but personnel issues is an ex purely executive function.

It's not a legislative function when you're dealing with individual cases and individual complaints.

When I see left out, I think I'm speaking for you actually.

We're left out as a city because we're representing you.

I mean, you are one of our employees uh as a whole.

I mean, you if I've got to well, it could be addressed with the with the executive function by going to the executive function and having them whole hopefully um uh uh make uh suggested resolutions to the uh the uh the six to twelve month troubling patterns.

Two things and we'll end here.

Um the civil service board, which you mentioned has three current members, or five total.

Three members are making decisions about someone's employment um from these past months that we haven't had a full uh civil service board.

So when we talk about all these boards that need to be filled, or all these you know commissions that need to be paw, all this work that needs to be done.

This is one that we should definitely be looking at as a city uh to uh help protect our uh employees.

Yes.

The second piece um is this something that we ask um Ashley, if you don't mind, uh uh city attorney, assistant city attorney.

Do you mind sharing with us?

Um do we know if an investigation from the executive office has been done on these matters already through that consult?

I mean, is that I really can't talk about it.

Okay, we can't even ask that question.

Legally, I cannot discuss personnel mat like individual personnel matters in this form.

I can't well thank you.

We're gonna end it there.

Um maybe we'll ask in a in a close or something, we request that.

Um, but uh bud, we appreciate you.

Thank you, Cynthia, for that.

Um, thank you, Ashley.

Thank you.

Um is there any final words that you all would like to ask or say?

Because it's about time.

Okay, uh, thank you, Claudia.

You have a business.

Thank you.

Be safe.

Thank you for inviting me.

Um yes, uh, there's nothing else on the agenda for tonight, um, unless there are final words.

Um, and so I just move or ask for a motion that we adjourn this meeting tonight.

So moved.

Okay, okay, all in favor of that.

All in favor of that?

We all good?

Okay, blessings.