Gotcha.

Perfect.

So scratch 8G from your agenda.

We do not need an executive session.

Uh there are no clerks' office licenses or permits under the consent agenda, and the manager has no contracts to execute either.

So mo motion to approve the agenda as amended would be in order.

So moved.

Second.

Moved and seconded.

Any discussion?

Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion is presented.

Please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

Aye.

And those opposed, thank you very much.

Under visitors and communications, anyone wishing to address the council regarding an item that is not on the agenda.

Hearing and seeing no one, we'll move along to the consent agenda.

Council will be approving the minutes of February 3rd, 2026.

As I said, there are no clerks' office licenses and permits to approve.

We'll be certifying the 2025 TIFF annual report.

That was in your packet.

And we will be approving the 2026 coin drop schedule.

That was also in your packet.

Uh and the manager has no contracts to execute this week.

So motion to approve would be in order.

Thank you.

Second.

Moved and seconded.

Is there any discussion, folks?

Yes.

I sent a correction or a revision to Cheryl for the minutes.

Um to add um under I'm sorry, eight.

Um you did this under D, the ICE preparedness statement.

Um there was nothing in there that indicated what the resolution was that we had agreed to post that statement on the website, so I just asked if we could amend that um that section to include that.

Um I don't know that it was a we didn't have a formal vote on it.

There was no resolution and vote.

I know that there was I didn't remember there being a vote, but we did agree to post the statement on the website.

Yes.

So I just wanted there's something that that's a sentence like that says council agreed to post the statement.

I sent the corrected version to all of you.

Well, on the web page, so you could say council posted the statement on the web page.

Yes.

Because it's done.

Yeah, that would be that would be fine if there's no objection from the council.

Any other discussion?

Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion is presented, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

And those opposed, thank you very much.

The motion carries.

Uh council, we're at 4A.

We'll be approving the city warrants for the week of 2116.

Motion would be in order.

So moved.

Thank you.

Second.

Moved and seconded discussion.

Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion is presented, please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

And those opposed.

Are you abstaining, Council Svalley?

No, not this week.

You don't have to.

All right.

Good deal.

Then we will move on to the city clerk's report.

Okay.

Uh I have a couple of things.

First of all, I want to bring to everyone's attention in the room and online that the clerk's office is closed Monday, uh, February 16th, and that is the actual due date of your uh third quarter property taxes.

So therefore the taxes date will now be Tuesday, the 17th by 4 30 p.m.

Um with the holiday, it just pushes it off to the next business day.

Uh secondly, to date, I have sent out 256 absentee ballots.

Um requests are still coming in.

I got five today, and we advise you to make your request sooner than later.

And it is a reminder, it has to be renewed every year.

Everyone who did call today, they they said, Oh, I guess I didn't remember that.

So I'm just gonna keep reminding people.

I am posting trying to post every other day on front porch forum in regards to both the taxes and the absentee ballots.

Um and thirdly, dog license renewals are still underway.

The due date is April 1st.

It's always a good practice to have the updated RAB certificate in hand when you are renewing the license.

However, we can always do a quick search to see if it is a valid certificate on hand.

Thank you.

Any questions, Council?

So the 300 and change that you said, how does that compare with previous?

The 256.

256, I'm sorry.

It's about a level with what for this time.

I mean, we still have a good four weeks to go before the election.

About where it is now.

Yes, especially for uh school budget.

They tend to be smaller.

Understood.

Any of it, yes, sir.

How many new voters have we registered?

I have not gathered that information.

It's okay.

But I can get that to you.

I'm just curious.

Yep.

Thank you.

If there's nothing else, Council, we'll move on to the liquor and cannabis control board.

I'll call that board to order.

I believe we have a number of licenses for consideration.

Would you read those into the record?

Certainly.

Forget me not flowers and gifts.

They are renewing their second class liquor license.

Walgreens is renewing their second class liquor license, their tobacco certification, and the tobacco substitute.

Granite City Market is renewing their second class liquor license.

They all have been vetted through the police chief and nitcopping the fire marshal for approval.

Motion would be in order.

So moved.

Thank you.

Second, please.

Moved and seconded.

Any discussion?

Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion is presented.

Please signify by saying aye.

Aye.

And those opposed.

Thank you very much.

Motion carries.

Liquor and cannabis control board is adjourned.

Mr.

Manager.

Thank you, Mayor.

Appreciate it.

Maybe a few weeks.

I'll miss it too.

It'll be won't.

Obligated to say that.

So we have a couple updates for the council and the public.

So we had staff.

Brian was there with the water treatment staff.

We had police there.

But luckily the event was canceled and there were no participants who showed up.

And so there was no incident, which is great.

And we're happy to report the fishing.

That's awesome.

There is another one scheduled in June, but that's hopefully our legislation will go into effect.

But luckily there were no confrontations.

We're very happy for that.

And there was no intrusion into the Dick.

So that was all all for all uh sort of worked out well for the city.

Um an update on the overnight shelter, which is closed now for the first time in what feels like a long time.

Um they have just a stat from you from from Tess.

Last year the the shelter was open a total of 10 nights in the season.

So far this year they've been open 24 nights.

Um and we're not even really halfway through the winter here.

So there's a lot of uh volunteers uh you know burning the midnight oil here to to keep people safe and out of the cold.

So uh you know it's it's been a lot of work.

Um fortunately the the temperatures have have gotten to a point where they don't need to be open tonight, and hopefully they get a little bit of a reprieve.

But so far, um 24 nights this year this season alone, which more than double what they were open all of last season.

Um they've been full most nights, there's 12 beds at the shelter, um, and so they've had a pretty good recurring community of people who are are there uh most evenings.

Uh and just as a reminder, they they monitor the weather.

Um they're really looking at um their threshold is really zero or below, is what they're looking at when when they activate.

Um the RFQ for the prospect height the prospect heights developers um is uh has been out and the uh proposals are starting to come in.

I know I received one today, those are due tomorrow.

Uh so we're uh as we talked about, that's a condition for the um CDB G DR grants, uh, and we're showing our good faith effort to to find developers for that project.

So working with BADC on that and very uh eager to see what comes in uh as that deadline is tomorrow.

Um I mentioned to the council, I sent a brief email to the council this morning that we learned that we were recipients of two CDS grants, congressionally directed spending grants, um, sponsored by um by our our delegation in Washington.

Um the two awards we were notified of was $3.3 million dollars for prospect heights and $591,000 for Gunners Brook.

Um both those projects were funded under CDBGDR, um, but there's there's still I'm I'm working with our our partners like BADC uh to to figure out our next steps or so I don't really have a lot of information for the council other than the good news that they were funded.

These applications were put in a year ago or more.

Um so they they've been they've been pending for some time.

Um and so we've we've obviously been lucky in the interim to get them funded, but we're there are still needs at prospect heights, for example, in in terms of um development of the um you know beyond what CDB GDR is funding, uh incentives for developers so so to to get housing up there.

So there still may be needs for that.

I I don't have that information for you now.

Um I the only information I have is what I shared with you that they were awarded and and we're I'm working with um people like Josh at BADC to to figure out our next steps on this.

Um and then finally, as the mayor alluded to, I will be uh out of the country for a couple of weeks going on a family vacation.

Um and I've notified the council uh that uh Chief Brad Vale will be acting city manager in my absence.

Um I've asked uh the chief to um when he's making this he'll he'll have decision making authority that I would normally have.

I've asked him to consult with the council uh and the mayor on uh to notify and consult on you know when there's obviously a big decisions and also um when there's matters of finance to make sure he finds consensus with Christina, our finance director, and when there's matters of HR to find consensus with uh Gene Gallian, our HR director, just because those are you know, I I really trust the department heads in my absence to run their departments, but those are obviously things that sort of trans money and people transcend sort of an individual's departments.

So um I know Chief Hill will do a good job of that.

Um and uh he will be uh he will be in charge in my absence.

So um he accepted the offer to do that, which is great.

No one else stood up.

Didn't get it key to the office, so did he?

No, no, he won't be moving into the office.

You do want to speak with him, you'll have to go down to the PD safety.

Yep.

It's all good.

Any questions for the manager?

So the the um shelter has done a great job.

I know some of you have volunteered, I believe Councillor Gustin, you have.

Councilor Hillgarten, you have, I believe Councillor Spaulding, you have donated, I didn't.

You've donated That's still volunteering.

Don't show yourself short.

No, but you know, so uh we've been talking a lot.

I'm committed to getting that um position funded on some level uh by the state.

So we've been I've been talking with our delegation and others and the administration about how we do that.

But you know, one of the points that I made is that if you look at the state hotel program uh and you just look at the 24 days that uh Nicholas or 24 nights that Nicholas just described, uh that would cost the state in excess of $30,000 if it was under the hotel motel program.

And as the manager pointed out, we're halfway through the winter, and that doesn't include the good work that Tess and others do, you know, during the more during the warmer months.

So, you know, I think we can demonstrate the value.

We still we're having those conversations every day.

Uh you know, I'm committed to getting that position funded and in you know easing a little bit of the stress that we're seeing on our budget.

So hopefully we can get that done.

Uh sorry folks, uh any questions for the manager?

I got one.

Yes.

Um there's a path between Foss and Berlin Street that uh we're having some trouble with residents trying to get um get access from Foster onto Berlin.

Um gets plowed.

Uh I guess it's a city walkway.

Judy Copping brought it to my attention that there are some families that are trying to get their students from Foss Street to their bus stop on Berlin.

Um, but it's being plowed in uh and then the salt bucket that's there as well uh is being plowed in.

Um so she was just wondering, and we're kind of wondering how we can take care of that um so that way the residents can access it.

Well, the right guys in the room talk to TJ and Yeah, we'll get the guys to look at it and okay.

Yeah, anything on uh the intersection at Hill and Washington.

Yeah, have you gone up there?

I mean the traffic light just isn't it's not functioning if you're if you're the contractor and we're waiting for them to come in.

We've got a series of other you know items for them to do when they get here, but it's just a matter of yeah.

I mean it's manageable.

So if you're if you're coming up Hill Street, uh so if you or I, Councilor Spawdy were going home and you come up Hill Street and you're approaching the intersection of Washington and Hill, 302 and Hill.

If you're coming up from that direction, the light for some reason the sensor isn't triggering if you're coming up the hill.

You'll have you literally have to wait, traffic stacks up, you know, six, seven, eight cars deep.

And if someone is coming down Hill Street on the other side of the intersection, they'll trigger it for you.

And then the light turns green, you can go.

So I've just gotten used to taking a right-hand turn under Washington, going up to Charles and banging left.

It's it's easier.

But a little public service announcement that intersection is um little challenge right now.

Uh anything else, folks.

Okay, thank you very much.

We will move on.

It is 618.

We have under 8A, we have a public hearing for the CDBGDR applications warrant for 615.

Mr.

Manager, it's all yours.

Thank you, Mayor.

Um so council, we're back um to this uh step required by the application for round two uh submission.

Uh as you recall when we did a round one submission, we uh had a hearing for um for the applic before the application was submitted, and then the council um voted on on two res on the resolutions to um to authorize basically us to to submit make those submissions.

Uh this time around um the round two is is constrained to housing projects only, so we have only uh two applications that we are preparing and and asking for your approval to submit.

Uh one is they're both related to the North End Gateway project.

Um we've split up the projects.

One is only the elevations and buyouts, and the other one is the acquisitions.

And um as you know, in terms of of information for those who are interested in the applications.

The reason we did that is because the feedback we got back from ACCD after the first round was that the acquisitions were a little bit more tenuous uh in terms of their um their ability to get funded.

And so not wanting to roll the dice, not wanting to gamble with what we heard were compelling and competitive applications for elevations and buyouts, we decided to split them up.

We know that ACCD has the ability to partially fund uh applications.

I think correctly the council thought it wasn't worth risking that, and so um we're gonna be submitting um submitting this as two separate distinct projects.

Um, and I think that gives them certainly gives the elevations and buyouts a better chance on their own, and it allows us to get um you know a uh an independent sort of view on the acquisitions um applications.

So in terms of um you know the the content within the applications, uh the narrative will be much the same.

The only thing that has really changed as uh you may recall from our first round when we submitted this, there were nine buyouts, nine elevations, and four acquisitions.

We are currently down, so we added um one elevation, uh which was Ms.

Macris, who you heard from.

So we were initially when we started working on round two, looking at nine buyouts, ten elevations, and four acquisitions.

We've since gotten information that I shared with you at the last meeting that um for people who participate in the elevations and get funded, um, and and if they choose to sell their property in the next 20 years, they would they would basically lose uh all the equity in their property or have risk losing most of the equity in their property.

So because of that, we've lost seven of the elevation applicants.

Three have said have uh committed to remaining.

Uh so right now what we are working on at the staff level is uh is a much narrower scope, so it's still nine buyouts, all the buyout people came back.

Um three elevations because seven out of the ten backed out, and then the four acquisition uh property owners are back as well.

So um, you know, for the acquisitions and the buyouts, this this resale provision doesn't really apply because they're getting bought out now, they won't own it anyway.

Um, but it was really on the elevations that we took um that hit in terms of the reduction.

So we are working very closely with those those property owners.

They've been receiving a bunch of information requests from me over the last week.

Um the deadline for this application is February 27th, which is when I will be gone.

But we are um Jim Levinsky is working with us again.

He was our grant writer the first time, he did a terrific job.

Um Janet is helping is gonna be sort of the point here in the city while I'm out.

Um Jim's really doing the bulk of the work and and he's already done most of the narrative for the first round.

Uh and then Pat Moulton has been very helpful in Josh Jerome as well.

So the core team is remaining.

Um by the time I leave, um, I I expect to have much of the data gathering and and documents that are required uh ready for the team and even uploaded.

They will be really working on fine-tuning the narrative and the application can be submitted in my absence, so there's no no worry about that.

So that's our process.

We're um, you know, we've we've checked the boxes in terms of the procedural steps.

This is really the last one we have before we press send on the application.

Um we are eager and hopeful that we are successful this round.

I uh as I've mentioned to many of these property owners who I've I've had the chance to speak to a lot in the last couple years that hoping to call them with good news one of these days.

I I'm hoping that this is the time they've they've um gone through a lot and um hope that this time we can we can when we get the notification we can give them some some positive news and uh many of them want out, which is you know very understandable, and it'll be uh I think really positive for the city if we if we get these projects funded.

They're they're very compelling.

Questions?

Yes.

So as far as the elevation, do I mean it's not fair?

Do we have any recourse to write up something how we would like to go about it, or are we taking a chance of losing everything?

I mean, you you get a bio-elevation, you sell 20 years, you do, and you don't get squat.

That's not right.

Well, well, yes.

Um I mean, we, Nicholas and I, mostly I are continuing to have conversations with the administration.

Um I've presented them with a number of alternatives.

Um one is a straight up um the property is worth 150,000.

Um ACCD is putting in 300,000, as far as I'm concerned, it should be you know, one-third, two-thirds.

And I think that that would be understandable to anyone.

Uh or we could try a method where we take that same formula, but then we appraise the property immediately after the property is completed.

And you know, and again, there could be an adjustment there.

So they haven't been unreceptive to the conversation, and I think they understand that you know, who in their right mind would risk, and especially if someone has a mortgage, you know, who in their right mind would would risk all of their equity to do that.

Wouldn't it be easier to just save yourself the heartache and walk away now?

And you know, and and so those conversations have been productive, they've been well received, um, they understand, and I remain hopeful that they'll make adjustments to the program because the one thing that I've stressed is as we submit uh the elevation grant, if all of a sudden we had 10 people who turned around and said, No, I do want to apply, I want to make sure that we have that capacity.

And while and I wouldn't blame them, they may say, okay, we'll give you that, but we're gonna give you that for 90 days.

So if you've got any applications where folks backed away because they didn't like our formula and now we've revised the formula and they want to sit back at the table, that's great, but they've got 90 days to do it.

And I think you know, that's fair.

We want to build housing.

Yes, Council.

Did we get any answers on whether this is a state restriction or a federal restriction?

It's a it's a federal restriction, but in terms of how they implement the restriction, there is a great deal of flexibility.

And I and I think they've taken you know, with all due respect, I appreciate our partners at ACCD.

I think they took a position that is the worst possible position for folks who are suffering.

And and you know, it's it I've done it myself.

I've made, you know, I I've come up with formulas myself and then looked back on it after a period of time and said, you know, what was I thinking?

Um so at least.

Well that was my bottom mill.

Are we doing something to try to change this prevention?

Because again, not to be the dead horse, but the north end has been suffering.

We really haven't gotten jacked, and now they want to give us an elevation, but you're not gonna get any money 20 years done or it's just uh but thank you.

As long as we're doing something.

We're continuing to have those conversations.

And the one thing that I wanted to be assured is that is that the submission of this grant was not necessarily bound by that.

In other words, they can revisit that, and the answer is they can.

That was just their initial read.

Yes.

Um no, I've lost it.

I'm sorry.

It'll come to me in a second.

I'll just say that um it is really important that we know what what rules they'll be applying to because the the thing is that CDBGDR is a grant through the city, right?

So if this were to come to fruition and somebody were to sell their house in twenty in within 20 years, and the current rules were applied.

CDBGDR, ACCD is not gonna go knock on the resident's home in the north end.

They're gonna come to our doorstep and say, you owe 300,000 dollars from this grant, right?

And that that's a we we couldn't write one of those checks today.

Certainly couldn't write seven of them.

Um and so it's really that's what it's critical.

It's not just advantageous, so they're educated on it.

And so it's not just a risk to the the homeowner rolling the dice and making a 20-year commitment, but it's also what kind of instrument, and I that's what I've talked to the city attorney about is what kind of instrument protects you know the city council and the city in the future from having to make um these payments, right?

Because they they will they will be coming to us for the money, not to the homeowners.

I remembered.

Oh and um and this may not be information that we have to hand, but I'm curious if there are any other circumstances across the other CDBG grants that were awarded in which a program income restriction like this has been applied.

I don't recall seeing any other grants or potential grants for elevation, but I know that there were other grants where they were certainly investing in things and improving buildings and housing.

So I'm just curious like uh how are the rules being applied to different projects?

I you know, honestly, I I haven't I've been so busy with the I haven't even asked for or looked at any of the other grants.

So, you know, other people in other communities might be having this same conversation saying, hey, you know, it doesn't work.

I've been you know more for focusing on the issue that the manager just described, and also running through a series of hypotheticals.

Um, you know, like I said before, if you have a mortgage, well, a bank is not going to subordinate to the state of Vermont.

They're just not.

You know, banks have duties to stockholders, period.

You know, banks don't have a heart, they don't have a conscience, they don't have the soul.

They answer to stockholders, and that's the way it should be.

That's their their business model.

So, you know, and I don't care, community national bank, Northfield Savings Bank, those are our tried and true community banks, and they do so much for Central Vermont, but they're not going to say to their board of directors, oh, we're gonna subordinate to a $300,000 grant.

They get fired.

So those are the kinds, you know, we we've been trying to apply those.

I've been trying to apply those real life scenarios and the conversations that I've been having.

And you know, I just I want to see something for the North End uh come out of this, even if it's you know, I believe in the elevations, I think that's a good uh that's a great start for people who are there for people who are struggling, and I believe in the buyouts.

You know, I believe in that green space.

I think if we can start to transform the way the North End looks, you know, with all due respect to the folks who live there, it's not very pretty right now.

And if we could start to make it look better, you would attract development.

But you're not going to attract development, in my opinion, in the state that the North End is in today.

You know, you're just not.

So uh does anyone else wish to uh comment or do you have a question regarding the public hearing on the C D B G DR grants as described?

If not, I will declare the hearing closed and I will move on to resolution 2026-01.

This is the North End Gateway Project, elevation and buyout, CDBGDR application approval.

Motion would be in order.

So moved.

Second.

It's moved and seconded.

Is there any discussion, council?

And I'm sorry, a copy of the resolution was in your packet.

Uh hearing none.

All those in favor of the motion is presented, please signify by saying aye.

Aye, aye.

Opposed, thank you very much.

Council will move to resolution 2026-02.

Again, this is the North End Gateway Project.

This is the acquisitions, CDBG DR application approval.

A motion would be in order.

So moved.

Moved and seconded, take your pick.

Is there any discussion, counselor, or questions or anyone?

Any discussion or questions?

Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion is presented, please signify by saying aye.

And those opposed.

Thank you very much.

We will move on.

Uh council will move on to uh volunteer appointments.

This is the justice equity diversity inclusion.

Do I see autumn?

I don't see Aurora.

Are we Aurora?

I'm sorry.

This really did contact her.

Okay.

Um so I and I emailed her at the beginning of the meeting, but I haven't heard back.

Um well, you know, things happen.

Yep.

Um let's um council, why don't we try to get this one on the agenda one more time at our next meeting if that's okay?

Is everyone all right with that?

No, because you know, things happen, and you know, people get busy.

Uh but Alex is here.

Alex, come on up, how are you?

Thank you for having me here.

Well, thank you for being here.

I know you, but if you'd like to introduce yourself to the council and everything, talk a little bit about your interest in the uh police advisory committee.

Sure.

Um so my name is Alexandra Pastor and um counselor Gustin actually approached me and wondered if I would be interested in um joining the PAC.

So I said yes wonderful I would like to fill out an application.

So I'm here tonight do you probably want to know why I'm interested among other things I'm a Barrie City resident um lived here since 86.

I own property in Barrie City I went to school here.

I also did my master's here in Vermont so I really feel like I have a lot of investment in my community.

I'm community focused in general so I've been working with my neighborhood as uh several counselors know um on some issues that we've had uh some criminal activity so uh the police piece is very near and dear to my heart and I see that there's opportunity for communication um between the police department and the community um in speaking to my neighbors I feel like a lot of us felt disempowered so I feel like there's rich uh there's there's a lot of space there for building relationship between the two and uh I didn't know a lot about the police department and the individuals who work there until um I started being in somewhat regular communication with them over the last six months and they're courteous and they're positive and they're supportive and not always the impression that one would have maybe of a police department and I think if more people knew that we could have a very united community.

So thank you.

Yep.

And um have you had the opportunity to attend I know they don't meet all that often but have you I think they're meeting every three months now you probably haven't had an opportunity to attend a meeting but have you spoken to any of the members and so I've spoken uh well briefly to to Amanda but um I have um spoken with Steven so we spoke a little bit about the committee and how they've done all the hard work of working through the policies um at the police department so now they're ready for a next phase so um I'm sort of coming in a transition uh period but um yeah he is was very enthusiastic and it was nice to get his take on it he learned a lot and that's what I'm hoping also is to continue to learn more about the needs of the community and how the police department works.

And I asked this question of everyone and I already know the answer you've considered the time you know the time requirement to serve on the committee and to do the job well and you're prepared to make that commitment.

Absolutely and and you were correct Alex in your um in your right up here you are you're you're a very thoughtful person.

You know we don't always see eye to eye on everything.

That's okay.

Sometimes you get a little worked up when it comes to streets sometimes you get a little worked up with me.

Yeah yeah you uh but no every conversation that I have with you you're correct you and I are fairly thoughtful you ask you ask fair questions sometimes you ask them in a different tone of voice but but they're always they're always gonna say but they're always fair and you're always thoughtful in every conversation and I've had a lot of them over the years uh you know every conversation I've ever had with you I come away from that conversation smiling and thinking that you are an asset to Barrie City and and I'm thrilled to have you have you live here so thank you for that.

So you have my unqualified endorsement council any questions for Alex?

Yes I'm gonna put you on the spot are you familiar with Officer McGowan situation?

Uh a little bit yeah so let's just say I gotta rule you out of order counselor.

I'm sorry got a rule you out of order I apologize.

I do but the uh the committee has absolutely zero jurisdiction over that is uh she has uh an opinion on it okay but I just want to make it clear the committee all I want to know is if all I want to know is if someone was guilty but then they went through a process and was returned it was overturned 18 to zero would you move on with this person like okay then or would you har you know still harbor that you thought it was wrong.

I I guess it depends on who I am in that position.

Honestly I don't have any facts of the case but I do know it was very felt in the community on Facebook I see support in both directions.

And listen I like I said I don't have the details but I think these are difficult decisions for a city to make totally and it's not as cut and dry as things can seem and I I you know I follow resident chat a lot 802 scoop a lot because I I love to see what people are saying in the community.

And I I you know, I follow resident chat a lot, 802 Scoop a lot, because I I love to see what people are saying in the community.

You can get a sense of like a pulse of where everything is.

So I can't express myself because I'm being sincere here.

I'm not trying to do that.

I respect that totally.

I think you're going to be able to do that.

That's okay because as a committee member, you would have zero jurisdiction or that.

Well, perfect.

But you would be asked your opinion because you're on a you're on a you know, you're on a committee for the police department.

So you would be at, you know, you would have to do that.

I would be in that position.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Uh well, I will look at the same thing.

And I do agree here.

And we can end here.

I just I appreciate your honesty.

No, you're well, I appreciate the question.

So we'll I'm sure we'll have this conversation again.

Maybe not about McGowan then.

Any other questions, Council?

Yes.

Just not a question, just a comment.

Thank you so much for saying yes.

And I wholeheartedly echo what the mayor had said that I found you to be deeply fair-minded and thoughtful and passionate and persistent.

So we need exactly that uh serving.

Awesome.

Some of them are really awesome.

Some people get so worked up, they forget to give me their name, where they live, or their callback number, and I'm just like, okay.

That might be me.

Um so uh just a side note, I I work at the state.

I work for Act 250.

Um Act 250 is sort of like one of those departments that people are often not happy with.

And I enjoy actually receiving phone calls from angry people.

I don't get them very often, but sometimes I work with people who are frustrated because I love to open the door for them and help solve um or help find a middle ground.

And I think that is extremely challenging.

And and uh in general, um, any time you read the news, whether it's local news, et cetera, it's very divided.

And I just would love to see people come.

Not trying to be Kumbaya, but I would just like to see people come together and just try to solution together.

So and honestly, whether it's you people as in local, state or federal government, you know, I like to close that gap too, because I'm a taxpayer too.

So I feel like I can put myself in their shoes.

So I'm okay if they're angry.

Motion would be in order.

So moved.

Thank you.

Second, it's moved and seconded.

Any questions or a discussion?

Hearing none, all those in favor of the motion is presented, please signify by saying aye.

And those opposed, I'd say welcome aboard, but you've been aboard for years.

So good.

Amen.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Alex.

Appreciate you having you.

Uh okay, council, we will move on.

So we'll, yeah, we'll just put uh we'll just put the other appointment off for a week.

Uh or for the next council meeting, like I said.

Council will move on to the fiscal year 27 budget, DPW and survey results.

Uh thank you, Mayor.

Um and welcome back to the Christina and uh Brian Baker here for the public works uh departmental review.

Um so tonight um covering public works, public works is a big department within that department.

We're really talking uh tonight about streets uh engineering, streetslights, traffic signals, maintenance.

Um we're not reviewing tonight water enterprise fund, which uh funds it's a separate uh fund.

It funds the water treatment plant and the distribution.

Um and we're not uh reviewing the wastewater enterprise fund, which is um the wastewater treatment plant and the collection system.

So uh the budget we're working on now is is general fund funded, which means as I mentioned, streets engineering, uh street lights, traffic signals, maintenance.

Um we do, you know, we we do talk about the other two funds later in the year when we set the rates, which is in in uh August.

Typically.

So just wanted I didn't want you to think if if we didn't cover it or if I answered in that way, I wanted you to know why that it's we're really talking when what we're putting before the voters in May covers those three that I mentioned.

Um this is the just the visual uh and org chart um of public works.

Um really the what we're looking at tonight is those mostly blue boxes with some of the cross-hatched blue boxes.

So um so for example, the water department may sometimes work on a you know, helping the streets department on a project if there's a something, you know, they may help with paving prep, for example.

Um so there is a little bit of overlap.

Um but as I as I mentioned, primarily what we're really talking about is is that streets side, the engineering side, uh, and then we we also have a mechanic um who's funded on the the general fund side.

Um this department does a lot.

Um they have uh 47 and a half miles of city streets to maintain and plow, uh which keeps them very, very busy.

Uh on top of that, 25 miles of sidewalk to maintain and plow um and approximately 1200 drainage structures uh in the city.

Um so those those things um we interact all of us every day with.

We all drove here.

Um, you know, if you're walking anywhere on Main Street, you're interacting with something they do, um, and the drainage structures obviously spread throughout the city.

So this is this this department touches everybody's daily life.

You know, there may be times there may be years you don't interact with the police department, not so with streets, right?

This is this is we're dealing with it one residents are dealing with it one way or the other um every day.

Um they were very busy in 2026, um just a ton of of paving.

Um I'm gonna forget some Berlin prospect Allen merchant's rail was I think was done under last year's right project, but it was done this year, but it was done in the calendar year.

Yeah, um, but they were they were very, very aggressive paving project this year, um which which I I know hit a lot of streets that most of us heard about.

I know prospect in particular.

My call volume's gone down significantly just for paving that one.

That one was a popular one to hear about.

Um and they're they're very busy with the usual construction season projects.

These um these crews work very hard.

Um they work hard year round, but but from spring and summer and fall, they're taking advantage of the short construction season here in Vermont to do a lot of outdoor work.

Um they're doing sidewalks, basins, guardrails, mowing, you name it, um, they're they're working on it.

Um these are the this is the the budget uh changes uh for this department um on the general fund side.

Again, I'm giving you the budget section.

So when you go to the line by line, you can see exactly um which sections we're discussing.

So on the street lighting side, we don't typically make a lot of changes on on this.

This is pretty standard and stays pretty consistent.

Same things with the traffic signals.

I will mention uh it came up earlier today.

The traffic signals I know is a source of frustration for people when and it is for us.

Um as Brian mentioned, there's one contractor who does this work in the region.

We are at their whim in terms of when they can get here.

We have an accumulation of projects for them to do when they get here.

Um, and so I I know that it's it's frustrating for people.

I I you know we we feel it too, because these things just pile up.

One example is um we were not allowed or we we weren't able to hire someone to put the street the security cameras on the street lights, um, the ones that were gonna go on right up here and on maple.

The Green Mountain Power Poles were not allowed to.

Oh no, I'm I thought the traffic signal, we couldn't put them on the traffic signals.

Oh the ones out here.

So we're we're just we're waiting for waiting for them, yeah, to get it on their schedule.

Exactly.

We we weren't able to contract out for it.

They have to do it because of the complexity of the the wiring and everything that goes into it.

So we we're waiting to get those up until they're just to give you a sense, right?

And that's been since this summer, right?

So this is a met in uh August, September time.

So um so anyway, this is this is a source of ongoing frustration.

We just we we're at the their mercy.

Um and then the engineering side um we have uh a seven approximately seven point two four percent increase, and then the streets department side um we we're going from about 1.8 million to just over 2 million, which is about an 11.25% increase.

Overall, the percent change in this department is a shade under 10 at 9.80.

Um most of this again um driven by personnel costs.

Um the next we we are also making, you know, there are all the significant cross-drivers here.

Also we're spending more on salt, um, and so that had to be reflected in this budget.

Um so that was an increase of uh 25,000.

Um we have put more money in this budget after last year.

We had a real difficult season um with the winter pothole repair.

Um we've added more funding this year um to be able to stay on top of that a little bit better.

We did find um some savings um to a to uh offset some of these increases um and that was about just under 12,000 that we took some uh relatively modest savings uh that we assume from moving into the new garage, primarily with fuel oil and maintenance buildings and ground maintenance.

Um so that's that's the the summary for that department.

Brian's here certainly to answer questions specifically.

I I do want to give you an update of where the overall picture stands after this departmental review.

Um so at the the total general fund budget is now at 15.8 million.

Um as you can see, just 3,700 from last week's.

We're just making some we were making some minor tweaks in the last week.

Um the um 26 approved was 14.7 million.

Um and so we are at a um 7.4% increase in year-to-year expenses.

Um and then we are actually we're at a 6.66 increase in the amount to be raised by taxes, which is actually down from last week, and I'll explain that.

Um our increases are are slightly up again.

That was I that was just a technical adjustment on the 3700.

So that uh uh we went we went up just a small tick there, but what we were we realized that the Washington County taxes were being double counted.

Um they were basically they were we we had a separate line for it on on the revenue side, and we also had a line on the expense side, but we were um essentially counting the expense as having to be raised twice.

And so we got rid of that double counting, and that's why even though the expenses went up slightly from uh the last budget sum uh briefing to this week, uh, when we accounted for the double counting of that amount, which is forty-three thousand dollars, it sent the tax rate down.

So that's those are the those are the things we love.

Those are double countings in that regard are good.

Um we like it when things move that way.

Um and so that's I just wanted to explain that because it it's counterintuitive that that it moved in that direction.

Um so again, uh and then that blue box at the bottom says this is still sort of an all-in budget, right?

This is this funds the council's priorities that we heard about um in terms of um recreation and the bees.

Um it funds um Tesla's position, which the mayor, you know, we talked about earlier, we're hoping to get funded by the state.

Um it funds the requests from the library BADC and the partnership.

Um so it it does the things that we've heard people want this budget to do.

Um we're also we're still not displaying, we weren't panicked last week, we're certainly not panicked this week.

Um we are still we still have ways to get to five percent.

Um one of the fastest ways to five percent is to get that state funding for um the housing and homelessness liaison position.

Um that would uh drop us down to 5.84.

Uh and then um as I've mentioned last week, our we're currently assuming about a hundred thousand dollars of a fund balance allocation to help reduce the tax rate.

Um we are planning to come back to you as soon as I'm back in March and we continue these discussions with some options for what the fund balance will look like and how much more we could tap into it.

But at this point, um we an additional hundred thousand dollars of fund balance would get us right to that five percent target.

These are very manageable things and and and we can do it, right?

So that's why we are not showing you any panic at this point.

We're we're in relatively good shape uh and we have time to get it um to get it right and get it where people want it to be.

Now there are policy questions that you know are embedded in this budget for the city council, and those are things that are assumed in our numbers as well.

And so um we don't necessarily need answers tonight, but it would be helpful, I think, in the four weeks that we have until our next budget meeting for us to brainstorm if we need to be looking at other options, right?

So one of the things we mentioned at our first uh review when we talked about revenue is that we are uh we are proposing um a re an increase of the rental registry from sixty dollars per unit to a hundred dollars per unit.

That generates eighty-two thousand dollars in revenue.

Right now that is assumed in these numbers, right?

So if that's a if that's uh direction the council is not comfortable going in, that either that that plays in, right?

We have to take that out it or or reduce it, and that means either more fund balance, more savings, right?

That's that's an eighty-two thousand dollar number that we would have to replace one way or the other.

Um the budget, I sent you the full line by line this week because we've we've now seen every department.

So I don't expect you to look, you know, you can look at it by line by line, but I do definitely want to point out um that the we are proposing uh a fairly significant reduction to Green Mountain Transit allocation by 20 almost 26,000 from about 38,000 to 12,500.

This represents of GMT's total revenues, it's a drop in the bucket, but it's also you know, five percent of their local operating assistance, right?

So I'm I'm I'm uh respectful of that both ways.

That overall, are they gonna feel 26,000, their 23 million dollar operation?

Maybe, maybe not.

From the local assistant side, you you definitely feel five percent, right?

So I I acknowledge that it's it's it's a it's a tough one.

Um we I have talked to GMT about this, they know that we're proposing this reduction.

They have asked to come talk to you uh in on March 17th at the next meeting.

So I don't think you need to again you should wait to hear from them before you you know you certainly formulate your your own thoughts, but they will they want to come talk to you about that as well.

Um I will say that um we did ask for the Washington County allocations, they're a little bit all over the board.

Um Montpelier's is 30 some thousand, Waterbury is two thousand.

So there's a I just want to say we are not doing something crazy here, right?

Like there's there's there's some rationale as well.

We're still contributing more than uh then Waterbury.

Um that said they want to come talk to you, so I don't think you need to make decisions tonight.

I I would I would hear them out.

Um they could if they could brief like if they could send us a written brief yes prior to the meeting that would be that would be really helpful.

I mean, I know that is that caught my eye.

Yeah, because I mean we've all read about the struggles, we've heard about the struggles, we've had uh representative from green representatives from Green Mountain Transit in a number of times to talk to us about you know reductions in the service and how they're struggling, and now to top everything else off in the northern part of the state, every single one of their electric buses is parked because their batteries are recalled, but um they can't get replacements.

So you know, they're struggling, they provide a valuable service, and what I'm not necessarily interested in is kicking somebody when they're down.

So I not faulting the manager, it's his job to to present a budget to the council that that hits the numbers.

But this one I'm I I'm I'm gonna wait, and even on uh the 82,000 revenue from the increase of the rental registry.

Um we'll have a lively meeting on the 17th.

No, they and when I say lively, there'll be a lot of respectful discussion and we'll have some decisions to make.

My concerns about you know, when when we have roughly 50 percent of our properties here in Barrie, where people live are rental properties.

So we have a we have a significant in terms of percentage, a significant number of renters.

And it's not lost on me that when property taxes go up, and I don't fault landlords for doing this one little bit, I would do the same thing, I do the same thing.

When property taxes go up, rent goes up.

Uh, when utilities goes up go up, rent goes up.

And when the rental registry fee goes up, rent goes up.

And and so my concern, and and I want to have a good conversation about okay, are we ultimately putting this $82,000 increase on the folks who can least afford it?

And and maybe I'm not saying no increase, I'm not saying no to an increase, but is there perhaps some common ground here?

And I haven't had a lot of discussion with folks about that, but I do you know the folks at Barrie Housing Authority, the folks at Down Street, folks Capstone, and just say, well, you know, what do you all think?

Yes.

I have briefly a response to that, which is the my quick math says that would be an additional three dollars per month per rental unit.

So that would seem not in good faith to pass along to a renter.

Um it would not be a good faith.

At just three dollars a month, I feel like that could be absorbed without year after year after year is how people go bankrupt.

Um and that is generally what happens.

The next uh is a brief question for the manager, which is I'm curious how you arrived at that number of reduction and sort of what made you sort of propose that.

Um we have very few lines that are non that are discretionary.

So that's that's one place we can go, right?

And and so that is um one reason we can we that's that's an area we can make adjustment.

Um we knew that that our allocation was that there was a difference in allocations from communities, and so that was one other rationale um in terms, you know.

I think our allocation was on par with what Montpelier is paying, but then again, the Waterbury number is quite different.

Uh and so that was another rationale of are we are we over, are we maybe overpaying or or is there are there other ways to get other communities to to sort of contribute more as well?

Um so there wasn't a specific um math to it.

We were we were trying to get it down to a more what we thought might be a more sustainable number, um, which is somewhere between two numbers that we were familiar with.

So um no specific rationale other than those two general thoughts.

Yep.

Waterbury is at $2,000.

Where'd they come up with that number?

And throw them a boat.

It could be, and I I'm that's why I think I I spoke with Christian Meyer, who's chair of the C VRPC and ours are Washington County representative about this.

Uh and I'm also very open to the fact that they may show up on the 17th and tell us there's a very good reason for that, or there's maybe there's another contribution that Waterbury makes that we're not aware of, and that would be I would be that's why I think it's important to have them here.

Um we can go only by the information that we can see.

And and you know, like someone looking at our budget might draw faulty conclusions.

Uh we could have drawn a faulty conclusion, and if that's the case, I'm very very open to hearing that and being corrected on it.

But um uh again, there there could be other rationale that we're not familiar with.

Um then the last other policy question um really doesn't have a money associated with it now, but last year we eliminated what was a generally speaking a very popular bulky waste event that actually Brian staff operates.

Um we we cut it um we're in we were when we had the budget Congress, and you know it's an event that we know residents really like.

Um Carol was actually the ID checker last year, so she could probably tell you the number of people that you know, a lot of people it was a constant stream.

I think Councilor Berger on remember you called me about that pile.

We had an extra pile of garbage because of how many people showed up.

So we know it's popular.

Um again, nothing necessarily to decide tonight.

We can create craft something and it even can be outside of the budget, but um if the council is interested in a cost neutral event, that's something that we we can try to put together.

The cost for the city is essentially overtime for public works and then hauling, you know, rental of of bins and and hauling away.

And so I know Barrie Town does an event, they charge people.

Um, and we would try to do something similar.

We could try to figure out a way to have differential payment for city residents versus non-city residents.

I still think we need to charge both ways because um, you know, unfortunately, what's intended to be sort of a spring cleaning event turns out to a landlord's cleaning out their property event and we got trailers full of stuff when really the idea is to get sort of the back of a pickup full of stuff.

And so um we don't want it to be abused in that way, but we do know that you know people love this event and they really enjoyed it.

And if we can find a way to do it um that's cost neutral, um, where there's a small fee for city residents and and anyone else is paying a little bit more.

Uh I think that's something on the staff level we're happy to provide because we know how much people enjoy it.

So um we would propose doing it cost neutral.

I think the you know it became a little bit too much of a headache and too much of a an easy thing to abuse to do it for free.

Council Ruthier, you had a question earlier.

Yes.

Um I have a couple of questions involving you and your hand up as well.

Um this year versus last year.

Um currently, right now we are have three openings in the street department.

So you're three less than last year?

Um, I think we've we've always had we've been down at least one in the street departments from at all times, but we're down to we have three openings right now.

Um drainage structures, 1200.

Are they during the summer they what percentage are are they clean?

I mean, isn't that one of the biggest reasons for the flooding, the drainage structures get clogged from underneath?

Um I don't think that's the the biggest the what happened on the on the down down here is our the culverts plug the underground river plugged and that's what flooded the downtown area.

So you get you do consistently looking at we we try to have someone out there cleaning as much as we can.

But it's you know, with uh limited staff, you can only do so much.

But we are planning on you know trying to have uh you know two-person crew out there um most of the summer if we can swing it.

My last question, which we ever gonna budget in West Patterson Street.

Spauld High School has a fire or something scary, just one way in, one way out right now.

How do we ever budget that in?

I you know, I I think when we got preliminary engineering on that, that was well above a six-figure project.

Um in the more I would say mid six figures minimum.

Yeah, we estimates somewhere between uh quarter million to a half million for that one section street.

And I think that um the the you know to to sink that kind of money into that short of a stretch of road, um where the you know they can go down Circle Street, I know they can get out down that way and down Ayer Street.

Um it doesn't seem to us on the staff level that if we had if if you gave us 250,000 to do something with that would be I don't think we'd get to that in the next 10 years.

Um right.

There's there's no a lot more people don't bring that up or do the no we even they did after the no, I I I do, but I'm sensitive to the argument that when you look at some of the side streets, some of the streets that people are traveling on, and you look at their condition, I get it.

And I really miss it.

And and I doubly miss it because the South Main Air Street, Hill Street intersection, that stoplight is responsible for global warming.

Said it before, and I'll say it again.

And that intersection just makes no sense.

And you know, it's all time now.

It used to run, there used to be sensors in the road.

Now the sensors they smartened up and they put the sensors actually on the traffic lights.

That particular light, the sensors are actually in the road and they they failed years ago.

So you just rely on the timing.

And you know, it is we've had that retimed and re you know, uh programmed, you know, do a traffic study to see what it should be.

And yeah, I don't think it pleases anybody.

Well, and sometimes it just doesn't go.

Yeah.

I mean, literally, you know, the all of our stuck in a loop and it just scheduled for replacement.

So that's if you look at that budget, that's where you know $20,000 a piece is for traffic lights.

And there I think we are up to eight of them now, so we're trying to spread those out over the next couple of years to get a new one.

But again, waiting on that one contractor to do it, they're scheduled to do one per year for us.

Right.

Unreal.

Yeah, and that's all they're doing.

But I I hear you, I miss it.

Like I I miss it a ton.

Yes.

Very brief.

I'm so sorry.

Like just the like light, the box with the three lights, that's $20,000.

It's it's the system.

Yeah, the control system.

You know, there's a pedestal that sits out there and the series of lights.

Okay, so like the entire intersections were thank you.

That makes me feel better.

Yeah.

I had a question about the Green Mountain Transit.

Um if we could get them to send us something, but also because I don't know enough about what how they service our city.

I do know that what I heard was that they were reducing routes, and that was a really big deal to people.

Um if we gave them the full amount, would they add those routes back in?

I'd be fine with that.

Um I mean, if we're gonna pay more money and they're gonna treat us like we're, you know, we are paying more money, that would be I I would consider that.

But I also think that um if there are other communities who are paying less and getting the same level of service, that's not equitable.

So that that's what I'm curious about.

Um but isn't that the same with the library, Berlin and Orange aren't paying what we're doing.

But they play, but they pay non-resident fees.

It might put it that way for 25 years.

Well, if they pay non-resident fees, they don't make let's get a lick to see how much money comes in from non-residents.

We could ask it.

Wait, wait, one second though.

I was gonna say to you, I every time I go out and and talk to people, they always ask me when is West Patterson opening every single time.

And I tell them not to hold their breath.

So same same on top of uh camp street.

That's a joke too.

Oh, yeah.

I mean, that's not that's that I know it's a major corridor.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay.

Uh so just back to the bulky waste event.

I think when we first tried that, didn't we set didn't we have a fee schedule?

Like the first time we did it, uh so much for a car, another price for a truck, and then uh price for a truck or a car pulling a trailer.

I think there was, but I wasn't involved with any of the collections.

Yeah.

Um and I think if we did that, they're still gonna come.

Yeah, probably we saw how much stuff was there last year.

Oh, yeah.

And I think it's gonna be it's still gonna be less than they'd be paying a hauler to come to their property and take it away.

So oh, absolutely.

I mean, you know, we were pretty reasonable.

I mean, we were doing a pickup truck for like twenty twenty bucks or something like that.

I think it was fifteen, twenty and then twenty six.

Yeah, I mean it was it it was reason, and we wanted it to be reasonable because so many people were clearing up flood debris.

You know, they had furnishings they so we wanted to make it that way.

Um, I I'm all over that.

I think if we if we could bring back the bulky waste event and and charge folks, um, you know, that could be great.

And and you know, we're a small community.

I mean, you do we have to charge everybody?

No, not necessarily.

You know, if someone shows up and they really can't afford it, Carol can waive the fees, can't you care?

You know, a few extra dollars in my pocket.

Yeah, I mean, no, but we try to, you know, we try to work with people, and you know, so at the same time we complain when there are tires and other things outside somebody's property, so this is a perfect opportunity for us to say, well, we're giving you an opportunity.

So e man, if we could do it, yeah, and I realize it's all overtime, but you know, if we could do a couple of them, do one maybe in the spring and one before the winter, um that would be awesome.

Council could run it.

Well, would that be a union violation?

Probably.

Not if Carol was I bet you would be.

Well, we could rent a dumpster ourselves and do our own non-city sponsored bulky waste event.

I'd be down for that.

Yes.

Um two things on the bulky waste event.

Councilor Burger and I held a um budget conversation with some of our Ward Two residents last week in that this.

Well, it was a good conversation.

So a very snowy day.

Um, but uh they were all in favor of we we actually posed this question.

And they were wholly in favor of uh cost neutral.

And briefly on the question of staff time and overtime, I would absolutely echo that I would want to be sensitive to the cost of the event and not make money on it.

But if the cost, as you set the fees, could also take some of that staff time and staff overtime cost into consideration.

Right.

Um, that would help us recoup some of that.

Yep, absolutely.

And you know, and honestly, in the spirit of helping, not you know, not trying to take work away from anyone, uh, you know, our folks at public works, you know, we we looked at like you talked earlier about structures.

So imagine you know, by the time you pull a truck up, you need a back truck.

By the time you pull a truck up, you gotta have a CDL driver, pull the cover off, vacuum the thing out.

It's probably what two hours, a structure to really do a good job.

There's 1,200 of them.

That's 2400 hours.

That's two people cleaning those, doing nothing but cleaning those free.

I mean, that's that's their challenge at public work.

So if there was any way that the union would allow, if you know, I mean, usually you do it on a Saturday.

Who wants to be standing by a dumpster on a Saturday?

City council, we might.

No, so maybe if they had a couple of DPW guys there and a few council members who wanted to volunteer or community members, maybe you could run that by them, and you know, they'd they'd be okay with that.

So if it's an event they'd rather really not do the DPW guys are there to run the loaders, the bulk of it.

So I'm not sure if any of you have loader experience, but uh own one.

But I can pick up heavy things.

And a vacuum I can always bury the garbage if you want, just point out the spot.

No, but if they, you know, I mean, we're just trying to figure out a way to bring more services to city residents and um you know, but also not tax the staff because I know how busy they are.

Um, any other questions on the budget council?

So thank you for sending us the complete budget.

Um Carol, do we have the somewhere do we have the or Christina?

Do we have the um current grant list?

Current grand list, and can I get that number from you?

And it's gonna be useless.

I know it's gonna be useless, but people are going to ask, and I want to be in a position to answer the question and say, okay, if your assessment stays the same as it was this year, and it won't, this is what would happen.

This is what your taxes would be.

Uh but you know people are gonna ask a question, and even though, like I said, with a ton of caution, I'll say, you know, this is kind of a useless exercise, but I'll give it to you anyway because you asked for it.

It's the reason that we really are focusing on the the percent difference of the amount to be raised by taxes, because that's the part of the formula that will be the same.

The grand list will change, right?

Which will ultimately change the uh tax rate, but the amount to be raised by taxes, that's the best uh way to see what the real difference is.

I agree.

I'll I can send you the number, it's gonna be useless.

But I did 90% of the stuff I do is useless.

One more question.

Yes do you burn your waste oil or do you use a waste oil furnace?

Or no?

No, we don't.

What do you do with your waste oil?

Um I believe they they safety clean.

Some of it goes to safety clean, but we have a couple uh um garages that come pick it up to do that.

I'll be down, I'll be down.

We're lowly sure.

I mean, we usually have more waste oil than what to do with but okay, thank you.

Uh any last parting thoughts, Nicholas?

Uh no, I will just move right to the the budget survey.

Okay.

Perfect.

You're good.

Everyone good with Christina and Brian.

Yeah, Brian, Christina, thank you.

Have a nice evening.

Um, so thank you, Council.

The other piece of the budget discussion for tonight is the results of the budget survey.

Um, and so I'll just start running through them.

They were in the packet.

I think the um they were the responses, and then you had um you had the written comments as well.

So just on the demographics for the first couple slides of who we're hearing from.

So we had again similar to last year, vast majority of the people who responded were residents, about 84%.

And then 5% uh live nearby and or used uh city services.

Of the city residents, um we had just about half of the respondents were from Ward 1, and uh next highest was ward three with 32 percent, and ward two, uh bring those numbers up 20%.

How does that uh work out with our population, Carol?

If anybody, if anybody knows the answer to that question, it's gonna be you.

The last time we looked at the numbers was the last reapportionment.

Yep.

So a couple of years ago, and it's surprising how close the three wards are with regards to numbers.

So it's kind of a third, a third, a third.

Sort of if you look around the city, so and this was very similar to last year.

Uh last year we had uh again ward one was about half and and similar splits.

So this stayed pretty consistent uh from year to year.

Um the this was a little bit different uh in terms of of the uh age of the respondents.

Um most of the respondents just but you know, very spice, very small margin.

Um 51% were under 50, 49 percent were 50 and over.

Um that was uh quite different from last year, where 57% of the respondents were 50 and over.

So um that was one noticeable change in terms of what we got back this year.

Um most everyone who responded many of the people who responded uh were um have lived here for more than 10 years.

So these are longtime residents who are primarily tuning in to do the survey, and this also was very similar to last year's results.

Um not totally surprising on this one.

Um we you know, 91% of the respondents um uh own a home here, and this is this is only counting the resident responses.

Um very few renters, uh it just eight percent and one person identified as uh being unhoused or housing uh uncertain.

Um and and just uh the the vast majority were either retired or employed uh individuals uh who responded.

So now getting into some of that was sort of who we're hearing from.

Um and and now here's what they said.

Um we uh got relatively high marks for from res from respondents for the quantity and quality of communications.

Um so you can see here um the first uh goes from excellent, good uh needs improvement.

Um and you can see that um I I did split these up.

The blue bars is the quantity of communication and the gold bar is the quality of communication.

So this was I I the one interesting thing I found here was that everyone who said the quantity of communication was a city resident.

So uh either you know a lot of things might explain that primarily that non-city residents don't need to hear much from us, but um I thought that was an interesting outcome of that that this particular question.

Where you were last year offhand.

Uh no, I would have to check those.

I don't think it was this high.

And I know you I know the staff, you and the staff who put a lot of effort into regroup and improving the quality and the quantity of the communication.

So I just I I'll look at last year.

I think I think you're right, Mayor.

I think it was it was it was okay, but it wasn't quite this high.

Yeah, so good for you.

Um and then um in terms of services, um, about 60 percent of respondents uh rated city services as excellent or good.

So you have excellent on the left there and good in the middle and needs improvement on the far right.

Um I did split this one up residents versus um all respondents, um, so you can see that there's not too much of a change one way or or the other um in terms of you know I I think it's sometimes helpful to see if we're getting different messages from the people who live here and vote here versus not, but I I think for the most part you can tell that there's not a lot of difference between um the people who live here and don't, which I think also positive.

Most governors should be happy with that approval rating.

Except for Vermont, who happens to be like way over 70, but um and then the views of the department services and funding.

So this is um this gives uh a lot of information.

Um this rates the the you know the this the service and departments are rate are down the middle, and then on the left side of this screen we have a heat map.

Oops, I am blocked.

There we go.

So on the left side of the slide, we have a heat map of whether a respondents rated the service or amenity as excellent, good or needs improvement.

Generally speaking, here the greenish hues tend to be better numbers, right?

So if you're um the good, you know, just about everyone uh is is right down the middle um saying that things are good.

Um couple outliers there that you can you can see there's you know, for example, and I don't think none of these, I don't think any of these are really surprising.

You know, if if we look at needs improvement uh for capital improvement projects, public works upgrades down towards the bottom, 104 people said that was the case.

Um I think we all know that, right?

Like we drive our streets, we we know that.

That's that's uh that's not a surprise.

Um and then the right side um we asked respondents to also tell us about the same amenities, whether the funding for these services or amenities should be increased, maintained, or decreased.

Uh and again, these are um the heat map here again is in that the the greenish hues tend to be more positive.

Um so you can see uh again, most people are right down the middle, um, which is pretty consistent with what they said about city services.

They're they're happy with them.

Could they they could be better, but they're they're also happy with them.

Um couple outliers.

Um there's a couple outliers you can see there.

Um, you know, for example, fewer number of people wanted to increase um things like the zoning permitting planning, clerk's office, right?

I don't think you know if my if city manager was on there, they'd probably be red too.

I don't think Cheryl and I take offense to that.

There's you know, we don't provide well, at least I don't provide really direct services, you do.

But um, but that's you know, not surprising that maybe people don't really want to increase, you know, maybe the permitting side of things, right?

Um then we also asked um respondents about um what we call these non-mandatory services.

Um we gave them a list of these things of you know that we have to fund or not.

I think next year, uh as I thought about this when I was preparing this, adding green mountain transit to this would be a good one as well, because that's that's obviously fits that category.

Unfortunately didn't do that this year, but I think um moving forward would be a good one to have on here.

Um again, I I think the the theme is is pretty consistent that um you know the the blue bars at the bottom indicate people who wanted to increase funding for that service or amenity.

Um the gold bars are people who wanted to continue to fund at the same levels, and then the grayish bars are uh at the very top, um, people who wanted to reduce that funding.

Um I I think for me what's you know really informative is if you if you combine the blue and the gold bars, um, you know, you don't see a lot of difference between all of these.

Um obviously there's a little change as I put these, I I I rank these sort of uh sorted them by um the total between gold and blue, so you can sort of see uh a pattern.

Um but generally speaking, even from the Aldrich Library to economic development BADC from a numerical perspective, it's not a it's not a huge percentage difference, right?

It's it's still people are what I'm taking away is is um we're kind of hitting a sweet spot.

I think we're getting things close to right um for most people.

There's not huge swings one way or the other.

Um we we try to find a couple of ways to ask people where we should spend more and and if we should spend more, and this was one of the questions we asked is should we spend more on um on these things, and I'll go through them.

Um and the the overwhelming response was infrastructure upgrades, which again not surprising, right?

That's the one that on the couple previous slides said needs the most improvement.

Um community recreation events and maintenance of city parks and facilities would kind of cluster together um towards the bottom of that.

Um full-time grant writer and public safety response sort of cluster together right in the middle, and then often its own stratosphere was um infrastructure upgrades, right?

Just not even close.

Surprise.

Yep.

I think you know, and generally speaking, I think it's it's nice to get relatively consistent feedback.

I think if we were getting sort of all over the place, it would be harder, but I think um generally speaking, the it was thematically consistent in terms of the responses.

Um this is another way again, you know, trying to ask people in different different ways, different manners about how to spend their money.

Um not surprising here, again, 85% of respondents rate street investments as very important, right?

And so the question said, you know, how how do you rate these services and amenities?

Blue bars are very important.

Um do you rate it uh is it very important?

Is it is it neutral?

That's the gold bar, and it's not important to me at all.

That's that little grayish bar at the top.

Um this one I ranked, I sorted a little bit different um because I thought the pattern was a little bit more more interesting and and clear um by ranking uh with the the highest respondents of very important um to lowest, right?

And so you see streets again um got the the highest votes from for very important um followed by flood resiliency projects, not surprising.

Um sidewalks, which I I would consider again part of our streets and and infrastructure um infrastructure, uh, and then so on down the road.

Um I think the other takeaway here is um you know, if you look at the you know combination of the blue and the gold bars, again, most people I think we're finding a sweet spot.

Very, very few people find the things that we fund um not important to do them, right?

There's no real real big outliers in terms of people saying not to fund a certain thing.

Um then this was just another way of asking people how about how we should spend their money.

Um and this question was uh what they were willing to pay higher taxes for.

Um and I also not surprising.

More paving and uh downtown foot patrols, which are are currently uh, you know, I more paving is really more of a capital improvement thing, but I know we've talked about the increased allocation uh in terms in terms of uh the the set the separate article in the ballot.

Um and then the foot patrols are funded in the budget um right now.

Uh none of the above, I think really important uh uh in in this answer that some people, you know, fair number of people said they weren't willing to pay higher taxes for any of these things.

Um and I can't quite remember, I think that's 15 percent of those were non-city residents.

So again, just just sort of a um because they may pay taxes as business owners or property owners in the city, but just I thought it was relevant to know who was responding about taxes they may or may not be paying.

So, what is that give or take on a percentage basis?

Uh I mean it's not a surprising answer.

Um you know, it it wouldn't surprise me to have 20 percent of the respondents say I don't want higher taxes at all.

So I think that 53 doesn't shock me.

I think that's about a 20 percent response.

And pretty close.

It's out of it's out of 191, so just about there.

Yeah.

So yeah, that you know, having it come in third doesn't shock me, but roughly half of our residents say, look, do more paving and I'll pay higher taxes.

I don't care.

Exactly.

And again, that doesn't surprise me.

Yep.

And and one thing, um, one reason I brought up the the neutral uh rev the cost neutral bulky waste events, because you can see that there wasn't a lot of interest in paying more taxes for that.

So that was one reason we are, like I said, we're we're really we like that service, we like that event.

I know residents really like it, but we saw this and we thought, you know, let's find another way to do it.

Um so that was that was it for the results.

Um and this just going back to our time uh timeline for the budget development process.

We've done quite a bit already.

We did our baseline, we've looked at all the budget uh departments individually.

Um we had the budget survey results, which I had to delay a week, but we we got that today.

Um we have a little bit of a gap here until I'm back.

Um, but we had those, you know, I think there's good policy questions up for discussion at the next meeting.

Um and again, we are you know, based on the numbers I shared earlier tonight, um, we're not panicked, don't think you should be panicked.

Um I think we're gonna um work really hard to get some state funding to help bring down the tax rate.

Um I also think you know, when I looked at the budget survey results, um I thought that the budget we're working with now is is pretty responsive to it.

Um, you know, and and so I think that that's um does it completely align?

Not necessarily, but I think overall um I think we're sort of hitting the right the right um the right issues and and and right priorities.

So um so that's that.

Yeah, we'll be back um in a couple weeks um with uh with some more information and and some some some uh tougher decisions to make as well.

Um but I think we have a good pathway to get to the target that that was set, and and I am confident we can get there.

You've done uh done a good job.

I mean, and and you know, to respond to your earlier comment, um, you know, well before we got the results of this survey, we were talking about doing a lot more with paving, about building that fund back up.

Uh we were talking about the quality of life issues, which you know is reflective of uh, you know Kess's uh work does um goes a long way towards addressing many of those.

And sometimes those go hand in hand with the requests that we've had for more foot patrols in the downtown, and a lot of the work that Tess is doing, uh I don't want to say it eliminates because it doesn't, but it alleviates the need for foot patrols in the downtown.

So it it's all going hand in hand.

So I think when any reasonable person looks at this um, you know, looks at the budget.

I think it it's almost like we read their minds.

Uh so I feel good about it.

And uh, but we got a little more work to do.

Absolutely.

Uh, you know, we gotta we gotta worry and and I'm you know toying with the idea of maybe going a little bigger on the paving allocation.

I that's so I'll be you know looking at that, unfortunately, there are no state grants for that.

We just have to continue to lobby uh Secretary Flynn for, you know, because when you look at what people complain about, there you know, uh I mean I look at social media as well and I see the comments about South Main Street, not you know, not our ranch, you know, uh North Main Street, not our ranch, the belt line, not our ranch.

And the areas that people are complaining about the most are not our responsibility or jurisdiction.

So, but unfortunately, um I mean I don't think we're looking at a major project in Barrie until currently 2029 and may even be 2030.

So yes, yeah, and I I would just say in terms of that South Main, we've been uh you know working with Brian and TJ on the coming up with a paving bid, and um we did reach out to the state um because we know South Main is is so bad.

We we we suggested, you know, if we pave from South Main to Ayer Street, will you pave Elm Street and Summer Street all the way to Maple?

It's just about the same distance in 2030, right?

And we thought this is a good way to and unfortunately they can get a federal state of grant, basically.

But they we we figured we would you know we would sort of front the cost now of doing South Main, which is terrible, and then when they come back in 2030, they would do a section of equal distance um that would also get our nice our core downtown like fully paved.

They unfortunately can't federalize those streets.

And so the the the way their funding streams work, they would be leaving money on the table.

Um but that was something we reached out to them about because we we hear it, we know we we don't like our city vehicles driving on it, we don't like paying claims for it.

Um and so um unfortunately, you know, something we explore to try to get some of that done.

We just we we can't afford to do what we did with the grinding here on Main Street, which we did pay on our dime.

We just we just can't afford to do it.

How much was that?

60?

Yeah.

Yeah, so that was 60,000.

And that's you know, so when we did Main Street, I I don't I didn't second guess Nicholas's decision to do it, but that 60,000 that didn't go into Elm Street, didn't go to Summer Street, didn't go to Potholes, is 60,000 we had to spend.

So we're not done yet.

We're we're creative in those meetings, and I'm thinking, what if we loan the state the money and they can pay us back in 2030?

So well listen, we'll we'll figure something out.

Um you know, North Maine and and South are South Main are just they're just not gonna wait another two years.

I mean, they just can't.

They're they're literally falling apart.

And I, you know, Secretary's wonderful to work with.

We've got some great partners, and you know, if I want to feel good about being the mayor of Barry, I just talked to the Secretary of Transportation because he's got it a lot tougher than we do right now.

So any other questions, comments for Nicholas.

Yes.

Just that um, first of all, the person who used their free comment period to suggest a rhetoric, let's be friends.

Um second, I'm gratified that a lot of people said flooders flood resiliency projects are high on their list.

I know that we're always seeking grant money for that, and I think the most important takeaway there is that people are still very, very focused in paying attention, and we're not letting that go.

That we are continuing to work hard on that.

So that feels good that it's still on people's minds and still on people's attention.

Yeah, yes.

Um as I was reading through the comments, there were a lot of comments about um the EMS and the fire department needing more help.

And that wasn't the impression that I got when we spoke to the chief last week.

Yeah, some disconnect.

There's there was uh there was a an effort, there was a campaign by the the union leadership to sort of encourage responses to that effect.

So yeah, so they were they went on um they went on a podcast to encourage people to do just that.

But I did ask the fire chief, yeah, he said they were fully staffed.

The police apartment, he didn't give them number, but he said they're three short.

So I but then the second line had five, but those five and the twelve, it's seventeen.

No, it's 12 still because they're to cross working.

Yeah, when I asked them that.

Yeah.

Yeah, and they you know, they it's um so you I think one I noticed that too.

Um, and I I also noticed that most of those are out of town because the highlighted ones are non-resident comments.

Um, so I think that that was indicative of of as well of some of them don't live in the city, or some of them have relatives or family outside.

So um I did notice that um as well, but I I know I also know that there was sort of an effort to encourage that.

Interesting you know, we're monitoring it.

So um sometimes any department, any company, uh any business, you can hit a rough spot, and we've all been there where you hit a rough spot, and sometimes you have to work your way through it and the circumstances improve.

Um, you know, this is and listen, I appreciate how hard work, how hard working the folks at you know our firefighters and EMTs are.

I feel I I do.

But this is a permanent decision.

If we were to make a staffing decision, it is permanent, it is embedded in the contract and it doesn't go away.

And it's not an inexpensive decision, it's a quarter of a million.

I mean, here we are struggling reducing busing from 38,000 to 125, and this is a quarter to add two people uh EMT firefighter is a quarter of a million dollar decision, and it is permanent.

Once it's embedded in the contract, you just don't get it out.

So believe me, if we if we get ourselves to the point, if we if we find that this is more than just a rough patch, and we're not seeing corrective statistics, the manager would be on it.

He just will.

So, but we're you know, and it and these are not when you're talking about public safety and you're talking about EMTs and firefighters, these are not easy decisions to consider because it's easy for someone to say, well, uh, you know, if we have overlapping calls and your mom has a heart attack, she might die.

Well, you know, it's easy to say that uh and to put that pressure on people, you know.

Believe me, we're we're monitoring the situation, and if if we need to hire one or two or three or four more EMTs to keep our community safe, that's what we'll do.

But we're gonna we're gonna consider it fully and not just we're just not gonna react quickly to it and make a quarter million dollar mistake.

So we're on it.

Nicholas is on it, and thank you to all the folks.

I haven't read through all of the comments.

I've got quite a few pages to read through, but this is you know, I'd almost like to send out surveys more.

I mean, I love reading these.

I mean, some of them are snarky, but but no, most of them are are good, and it's a really good way to communicate.

So even if we did it like a couple of times a year when we asked about city services and said, hey, you know, leave your comments.

I I love reading these things.

Yes.

Um I did read through them all.

Um and one of the comments that I thought was really um a good idea was that there might be some kind of official statement from the mayor or from the city manager about what you know what what the state of Barrie is at any you know monthly or quarterly or something like that.

And one of the other things that I picked up reading this was that a lot of the snarkiness was from people who maybe didn't know all the stuff that was going on.

And so we need to find a way to communicate um what is available and what is happening a little better because otherwise people you know can get into that snarky place where I you know I I pay all this money in taxes and my broad is a mess, you know.

That's all they know, and there's other stuff going on.

Um so it's a thought.

But we're well on our way, so nice job.

Yes, do you have a quote?

No, no.

Uh come on up, Carol.

I do probably because we're even waiting for this one.

Uh we're gonna discuss changes, counts.

We're moving on.

I'm sorry.

I had one more.

Yeah, go for it.

Um at our little meeting Saturday, Amanda and I, uh, one of the things that came up was the people that are asking for funding, separate funding.

And they'd like to see it back the way we used to have it, where they're listed individually.

Because they say they a lot of them say they don't fill it out at all because you know, they're so hell-bent on voting for one and and dead sent, they're not gonna pick the other.

Um and I I can't remember why we why'd we change it?

It's more cost effective.

It's incredibly expensive to print and program the ballots with literally 35 articles on them.

Um and so it was a decision of the council to move them into one article, have them all individually listed, but have them be one article.

How much would it cost, Carol?

Do you remember?

It's an additional fifteen hundred bucks a year approximately.

I mean, it seems you know, it seems like we could put that on the ballot.

We could just do it.

Or we could just change our policy and do it.

Um, that's something it's completely a council policy.

I I've heard that more than a few times from people who say, you know, so I either vote like some people have said there'll be an organization there for whatever reason, and they never tell me which ones that they really don't like.

So they vote no anyway.

And they're like, I'll sink the whole ship.

I don't care.

The policy has been that um uh those organizations that get grouped together are ones that did get voter approval in the past.

So they're part of that group.

Anything that is seeking an increase or is petitioning for new funding has its own article.

Right.

Yes.

Is there what's the history of the of that of those extra when they were individual, did they for the most part just pass?

Yep.

So then it was probably also particularly.

The only time that we've had you you could pretty much call the ones that weren't going to pass, they were new and they had the names of other towns in them.

Okay.

And yeah, friends of the Winooski River, I would always feel so bad.

I'd send them a donation, I'd feel so badly because they just failed all the time.

Yeah.

But you know, the Montpelier Senior Center, the blah blah, you know, it was you you they followed all the procedures, but once once the voters had an opportunity to, yeah.

But so you know, so that would be, I mean, if anyone's watching and they want to weigh in on that, I you know, for $1,500 if people really feel strongly about it, and I don't know that they do.

I I've heard from people like you have, but I don't know if they feel really strongly one way or another.

I mean, it would be interesting to have people comment or kind of weigh in on it.

Personally, I only feel really strongly about it when we're working on a budget and we're trying to figure out how to reach a certain number.

Yeah, I get it.

You know, yes.

I don't I don't know that I feel strong, terribly strongly about it.

Is is $1,500 all in, including the cost of printing additional pages and postage mailing.

You can't do additional pages.

You have to have you have to have just one ballot.

So everything has to fit on the ballot.

So is it possible?

We've been you we've been able to in the past fit everything on the maximum size ballot, which I think is maybe 18 inches.

Um and you know, because it's it one thing that's nice is that we no longer are printing the school articles on the ballot, because they have their own.

That made it in.

I I as I recall that was a really big driver because with these additional articles and the school article, it was getting virtually impossible.

And we couldn't do you know, there were years where we wanted to consider charter changes, and because you either have to print the all of the charter change language on the ballot, or you have to basically say, Will the voters approve all the charter changes?

Yes or no, and you may have six of them that you're trying to get approved, but because you can't print them on the ballot individually, you have to put them on one yes-no question.

And that becomes problematic.

So, but there probably is more room on the ballot now.

But it I would say the $1,500 is probably an all-in cost for printing and additional programming.

Thank you.

Could you look into that?

Thank you.

Well, because it'll probably come up at our next meeting.

I think I've heard it from enough people to where I think it warrants just a quick discussion, let people weigh in.

Okay.

Uh council, we are at eight F on the agenda.

This is uh conversation that we're gonna have, and we're gonna just discuss changes to the U.S.

postmark procedure.

Ma'am.

Sir.

How are you?

I'm good.

How about all of you?

Um this is meant to be the beginning of a conversation, an exploration.

Um, not expecting to um uh make any decisions because I think that there may be a need for to hear from the public some on what we're proposing.

Uh, I think it's interesting that this is something that I've been working on with the staff independently for the last maybe three weeks, and at the same time, independently, the town of Barrie's been working on it too.

Because they went before their select, their clerk went before their um select board last week with exactly this same proposal for exactly the same reasons.

Uh, you probably are well aware, because I know it's been brought before the council a couple times uh in the last few weeks about the change that the US Post Office um put in place uh recently.

It's not so much a change in practice as it is in letting people know how things are working with regards to postmarks.

Mail is no longer processed locally.

Uh anything, any piece of mail that's dropped off at the post office here, even if it's literally going into one of the post office boxes, goes out of town, gets sorted out of town, comes back, gets divvied up and delivered.

Um what the post office wanted to make sure that the public understood is that because no mail is processed locally, no mail is postmarked locally.

So when a piece of mail is dropped off, just dropped in a mailbox, there's one right out here on Prospect Street, it gets bundled up and sent off to a processing center, and it does not get date stamped until it goes through the machinery at the processing center.

And that can be a day, two days, multiple days after somebody has dropped that piece of mail in the post office in the box.

Because of that, we have for decades accepted pieces of mail that bore a US post office postmark as timely, as proof that somebody made a payment on by the date that it was due, either on or before the date it was due.

Unfortunately, because the post office has said publicly, that's not what the number means anymore.

That's not what the date stamp means anymore.

We can't depend on that date stamp as being proof that somebody has mailed a piece of mail on or before the due date.

You can still go to the window and ask them to hand cancel an envelope and stamp it with the date.

They will still do that.

That would in fact have the right date on it, but it's dependent upon the person going in, getting it hand canceled at the window.

Where it becomes challenging is a couple different things.

We are, because we do accept postmarks up to this point in time.

We're now dependent upon when mail arrives.

We've all experienced a slowdown in the receipt of mail.

We're now three days, four days a week out from a due date when mail is still trickling in with timely postmarks on it.

This doesn't give us an opportunity to timely close a collection, a quarter collection, and move things into the um delinquent billing for unpaid bills.

This then pushes our delinquencies because we're required to have 30 days between when a bill gets sent out and when it's due.

And now we're we're just playing catch-up all the way down the line as far as when we can close a quarter, when we can get the bills out.

The other thing is you'd be surprised how many envelopes come in with no postmark on them at all.

Somehow they've gone through the system with nothing.

Absolutely nothing.

I mean, totally blank envelopes.

The stamp is pristine.

Councilor Spaulding's over here going, I'm thinking she probably gets mail like that in the office.

Um and so that gives us nothing.

And so between the pieces that do have a US post office postmark, but it was applied to the envelope two, three days after the person put it in the mail, or something that has no postmark at all.

Now a payment has come in to us that we don't have any proof that it was made timely.

Therefore, it gets treated as a delinquency.

They get a bill, and they come in and then we end up with the fights in the offices where the person is.

I mailed it on the due date.

I mailed it the day before the due date.

And we are the only thing we have to go on is that envelope.

And when we show them the envelope and say this is what we have, their argument is, well, that's between you and the post office.

And our response is no, it's between you and the post office.

And unfortunately, there's nobody you can go to to the post office to talk about the situation and get things squared away.

So what we're proposing is to do away with accepting postmarks, to move to payments have to be received.

Many communities do this.

Um where this certainly wouldn't be unique for Barrie City or Barry Town.

We would, of course, put a tremendous amount of effort into educating the public and notification.

And I spoke with uh Tina Lunt, the the clerk up in Barrytown.

And the advantage if both communities did it at the same time, is we could really partner on uh educating our entire Barrie community because there are what a thousand Barrie Town residents who are Barrie City water customers and they get their bills from us, and so the rules would apply to them.

We would do inserts with water and sewer bills, we would do a postcard mailing to all property tax um uh property owners, letting them know this would be effective with their tax bill.

We would obviously do lots of social media, we would do joint uh articles and ads in the newspaper with hopefully with Barrytown.

Um we would put inserts uh we have information printed on the back of the stubs for tax bills.

We would obviously revise that language.

We would do inserts with the tax bills.

There obviously is a learning curve, and perhaps we would need to figure out a maybe a three or six month grace period kind of way to work, you know.

People aren't a lot of people aren't going to pay attention to it until they get bit by the change.

And so trying to figure out how to how to work that in through a grace period.

This is all this is all municipalities, right?

That's this is happening now.

It's it's but it has nothing to do with mis municipality.

What does it use postal say?

They don't have any, they don't come back with a response on this.

No.

Um, so this is what we're proposing, the staff is proposing, um, is moving in this direction.

We understand that it's a big lift, it's a big change, but we would do our damnedest to do outreach to the public to do education.

Um, and as I said, my our our hope is that um if Barry Town is is doing it at the same time that uh that we can partner in our education and and get more bang for the buck.

So um a question I have is um thinking about um people well people can still pay by mail, they just have to send it earlier to make sure it gets here in time, whatever that might be, two weeks maybe.

Um but I'm wondering if we could all tell like the ballot drop boxes, there was a way to drop off a payment.

We have a drop box on the and the information about the drop boxes in all the newspaper ads, it's printed on the tax bill.

It's at the is that at the front door?

Oh, okay.

I never thought of that.

But the amount of check washing going on, I would not use a drop box to save my life.

Check washing is when somebody lit literally takes a check and is able to erase everything but the signature and um rewrite it to whatever they want.

That's why most banks now, if you're have a thing called positive pay, where every morning, literally, if you're dealing in larger sums of money, every morning you actually have you get a list from the bank and you get to look at the check and see what it looks like, and you actually check each check.

And when you check them and you send it back to the bank, they will process and honor those checks.

Yeah.

Just so you feel assured Barry City participates in positive pay.

And we do it kind of in reverse.

We upload to the bank, this is the list of checks we're paying this week.

Right.

We're paying this check to this person, it's this check number to this person for this dollar amount.

And then as the checks come in to be cleared, they run them against our list.

And if there are any anomalies, I get an email notification, and I have the opportunity to go in, examine the check, and say, yes, that's legitimate, no, and so and they default to not paying it if there's a dip if there's some kind of a discrepancy.

So yeah.

So interesting, I I don't know, interesting conversation because you know, and I've said this, I I love our postal delivery guy.

Sean is just awesome.

And you know, it's sad because to me it seems like it's this um death spiral, you know, that you you get to the point where okay, I can't really rely on the postal service, and we always did everything by you know, paper check.

They come in, they get entered in QuickBooks, we print the checks, I sign them, they go out.

And now more and more we're having to go to electronic payments because I mean, you know, our property tax bill, I hand deliver it to sure.

It's convenient for me, it's right here at the city council meeting, but I literally hand deliver it because it's going to be a big fine if I if I'm you know a day late.

So it's really too bad that it's come to this because the more people who move away from the postal service, that only makes it harder for them to collect revenue and provide service, and like I said, it's this death spiral.

But we've got a city to run.

Um, you know, my first comment would be in terms of our technology, when we pay uh property tax bills in other municipalities, mostly southern part of the United States, I can literally go online and I can enter my routing number, my bank account number.

And it pays you can do that here, or or we have to give it to you and you enter it in.

No, as a matter of fact, we what's our link on the website uh for an for an e-check like that in ACH, it's a dollar seventy-five.

For each check.

For e-check.

For AE check.

For any check payment, it's a dollar seventy-five.

We also have a dollar seventy-five by the bank.

Excuse me.

I don't get charged a dime for electronic transfer.

It's it's through the third-party vendor who um who we have our online access with.

Okay.

They're the ones.

And we also for online access, you can pay with e-check.

You can also pay with a credit card or debit card.

If you do that, then there is a three percent service charge.

So if you're paying a thousand dollar tax bill, that's 30 bucks.

But if you're paying a thousand dollar tax bill, it's the stamp is 79 cents now.

Yeah, yeah.

It's really a dollar seventy-five.

So it's costing you a buck.

Right.

And maybe we should push that service.

We already we already do.

Again, it's in the ads that are in the newspaper.

It's um it there's a uh a color paper insert that goes out with every tax bill that talks about sign up for direct debit, and it gives people the opportunity direct right.

It gives the the information about online, but also direct debit, where we have an opportunity for people to sign up, and we will automatically debit your taxes from you on the due date for free.

That is not uh there's no fee for it.

We won't pull it orally, we pull it on the due date, and um and that's and there's no charge at all for that.

Absolutely.

No.

So our intention, of course, during this education period would be to really push the options that would hopefully help take the place of depending on a postmark.

So if someone signed up for the um the option where we pull your um, you know, we pull your payment on the, you know, you've given us your your checking account number and and and we pull it, we don't charge you to do that.

Is there any way that we could give someone a say three-day grace period?

Something goes wrong with your checkbook.

And I'm thinking about the number of people who um, you know, like some people say, well, just mail it early.

Um I mail my every property tax that we have gets mailed a month early.

I'm a lot more fortunate in my life than some people are, and some people literally have to wait until the 14th to make that payment, and I'm always trying to accommodate them.

So if folks would give us that information, how would you feel about saying, look, if something goes wrong, we'll we'll give you one three-day grace period.

If it takes you a few days to get straightened out, you tried.

We have we have all their contact information, because then when they sign up for direct debit, they do it through us.

We get the, you know, what's the property address, what's your name, what's your phone number, email address, um, what's your banking information?

And the most common mistake is for somebody who's signing up the first time is they transpose a number or they drop a number from their routing or something like that.

So the first time we go to do the direct debit, it doesn't go through, and we get notification from the bank.

And we reach out to them immediately and say, hey, this didn't go through, let's confirm the numbers, and if you can get down here in 24 hours with the money, you'll be fine.

We'll, you know, we that it won't be considered late.

We'll we're getting things squared away the way the system's supposed to be.

So we do already um do that kind of outreach in those in those moments.

Somebody does it four months at four payments in a row, we start to have a have a little more, you know, sterner conversations with them.

But we do we do make uh do that outreach right now.

So they get so in terms of so do they get a grace period like one time.

I'm not gonna do that.

Usually, yeah, like I said, it's usually can you get down here in 24 hours, 48 hours?

So, yes, there is a there is a a grace period.

So, you know, I mean I think if you could build something like that into it, um, because I know what I'm gonna do.

I'm gonna give you our routing number, checking account number, and I'll be done with it.

Um I've had it where we've had multiple accounts and they drew from the wrong account.

If you only give them one account number, I'm definitely gonna draw from one or other other this happens in other companies.

This is Yes.

Uh I use that direct deposit now with uh ACH, which is great.

Um It's also available for water and sewer bills.

It's also available for water bills.

Thank you for sharing that information with us this evening.

Um small request if it is legally possible.

I switched to direct deposit because I used to pay via e-check, and I was always doing it two minutes after 4 30, which would make them late because it closes at 4 30.

Is it possible to go till midnight if we're going to encourage even more people?

Because I think most people are used to electronic transactions not ending with the close of business.

The only challenge with something like that is you bend the rules for one class of people and not the other.

What about somebody who shows up at 445 and drops the check in the drop box?

But what about the piece of mail?

I I mean it's it's hard to come up with a one-size-fits-all set of rules.

Um you know, so I mean, it certainly could come up with something like that, but I I hate to create sort of different standards for different forms of payment.

But if you do the ACH transfer, I mean, that's probably the easiest way of all.

Oh, yeah.

And we pull it, we pull it first thing in the morning.

We do make sure people understand we're gonna pull it first thing in the morning, because I've had arguments with people who said, Well, I was gonna transfer money in at noon, but you pulled the money at eight.

Yes, we did.

You know, we don't even we don't even have to do that.

I mean, we could, you know, again, trying to accommodate people and trying to anticipate every excuse they may have.

We could have a policy that says, look, if you've given us your banking information and it goes through, we're gonna pull it on the 16th, not on the 15th.

So if you make a transfer at midnight, you know, we have it.

That's a choice that we're making.

Can't do it.

I I I just still think now we're creating different categories, different classes of payers.

Okay.

I I just uh I would find that a little a little tricky.

Uh I could imagine having a conversation with the bank and saying to them, can we, because we schedule the date, can we schedule the time?

Could we possibly, in addition to scheduling on the due date, schedule at four o'clock on the due date or 4 30?

They may not do something after their out their hours close, but I can imagine having that conversation.

But we pull the trigger, right?

I mean, it works like anybody.

We set it up days in advance.

Right.

But you're just setting the day.

Yes.

So they're going to do it soon as possible on that particular day.

Yeah.

So I already know the answer to your question is no.

Yeah, I mean, literally, if you initiated the transaction at 4 30 on the 15th, it would take it at 4 30 on the 15th.

No, it would do it the next day.

You know, I'm pretty sure.

I'm pretty sure most of the time.

Most of the bank stuff, you know, um, there's a, you know, any kind of uh uh of an electronic transaction, there's a cutoff sometime towards the end of their usual business hours.

So my guess is that it would go to the next day.

But I can have that conversation with them.

But back to the main problem.

When did this start happening when the postmark was two, three days later?

How long?

Well, it it's it's been going on for the last few years.

Two years ago, the post office, we started having real problems.

I was just gonna say how prevalent it is here.

We started we started having problems two, three years ago with um getting ballots here timely.

Um I know it's been mentioned a couple times here.

Cheryl's talked about how the fact in Vermont Um postmark ballots doesn't matter.

You have to receive a ballot before the close of polls on election day.

But a lot of people mail their ballots back.

And we were having ballots arrive, you know, on Wednesday, Thursday, Friday after a Tuesday election.

We went and talked to the to the post office, and they said, Oh, yeah, we don't sort mail on Tuesdays anymore.

And I'm like, elections always happen on Tuesdays, pretty much always happen on Tuesdays.

U.S.

postal code requires you to give um special treatment to any mark, any envelope marked official election material, and all of ours are.

And they're like, Yeah, well, we don't sort on Tuesdays.

And that became we we don't get any, there's no mail for the offices on Tuesdays.

We don't get a couple days a week.

So it became prevalent, so now that's where we're talking about.

It started really getting noticed a couple years ago.

But the the post office itself came out with this statement about three weeks ago, four weeks ago, that said a postmark is no longer an indication of when a piece of mail was mailed, it's now an indication of when it was processed.

So they're getting heat now, that's why.

Well, I mean, I think I mean I see the merit to moving forward with this.

It's change.

Uh it's literally uh a change that has been a policy in the city for centuries.

So I mean, at least 20 years that I'm aware of, and it probably goes back further than that.

So yeah.

Yes.

I do just to return to my previous question.

I understand your concern about creating sort of separate classes of when things are due.

I would, and I'm uh this change makes sense to me.

I I understand and appreciate all of the the work you're putting in and communicating out to folks.

I do think saying, and maybe it is that we check the box first thing in the morning the next day, and anything that has come in, we assume to have been come in by midnight.

Except what if they came in and dropped it off at 6 a.m.

on their way to work the next day?

You know, it's it becomes a big thing.

I understand.

I'm just trying to have their police departments empty the drop box at midnight.

So I mean it's I think what I'm what I'm asking for and encouraging is if there is a window that we can increase to give increased flexibility to residents during a time that's going to be a significant change, I would love to think about ways to do that and would love to sort of look at plans.

I totally understand that it gets a little messy.

Yeah, as I mentioned, I said it we I would probably want us to think about a three to six month grace period kind of and and and really codify exactly what that looks like.

You know, if if a piece came in by mail and was late, if it came in the drop box and was late, if it was paid online and was late, how how much grace period?

How does that look?

How many times can you do it?

How you know I would want us to actually develop something that that people could could count on.

So I'm sorry, Counselor Hill.

I was just gonna say two things.

I'd like the idea of having the police department emptied the drop bunker.

They won't be able to add so they won't.

Nope.

Um but they won't.

But anyway, um, and the other the other thing has escaped me.

Sorry.

It'll come back.

Um I I hear what you're saying about not creating different deadlines, but I also think if you did say we would wait, we would if you give us the ACH, we'll do it, we'll take it out on the 16th or midnight or whatever it might be.

It's an incentive to get more people to do that.

That might be the carrot that gets more people to say, I'm gonna let you have my bank account information because I know it's gonna come out at the last possible moment versus me having to send it in the mail.

That's all I'm saying.

I'm just saying it could be a it could be uh it could be like a little sweetener to get people to sign up.

I trust you to come up with something fair.

Yeah.

I I trust you to and Cheryl to to think about all the options and think about, you know, we've always some good reasons why, well, could we make it the next day?

And but you know, we already um I think it's a 1% penalty if you're late.

Uh it's a 1% interest, it's a 3% penalty.

Right.

But we had a what was the one where we ramped it up?

It used to be used to be 8% penalty and 1% interest starting at 431 on the due date.

Yeah, and then we changed that and we said, look, you know, just to give some consideration to folks who might miss it by one or two days, you know, that's a little different than somebody who misses it by a month.

So we actually reduce the penalty by 5%.

And we could I mean it's stinks for your office because you'd have more calculating to do.

But we could even say, look at your 40 if you're within 48 hours, it's 1% interest and a 1% penalty.

After 48 hours, it goes to 3%.

And then just that would require a charter change.

Yeah, I know.

But at least then, but we've got an election in November, so we could manage a special.

You know, I mean I trust you to come up with a program that we can all appreciate and all get you know get behind.

Because you've you know, you and and Cheryl, not as long, obviously for Cheryl, but you know, you've been working with people for for decades.

And the so you you you understand the people you you recognize the people who are sincere versus the people who are kind of gaming the system a little bit, you know.

But I gotta tell you, the post office makes it sometimes with the challenges they have, it even makes that challenging.

Yeah.

Um Karen was talking to me about her mom's property tax bill that arrived with a valid, and Karen, you know, went up and reissued a check and paid the late fee and all that stuff, and it arrived at Barrytown six weeks with a valid post, six weeks later with a valid postmark.

And and that happened in the middle of the year.

I mean, they appreciate it.

Exactly.

We immediately get an envelope with uh the right postmark six weeks after, we go right in and we remove or refund the the penalties and interest and you know, to that's that's what our policy is.

Yeah.

So yeah, what's most important to me, and I'm working with Cheryl and with Clint in the water and sewer billing department and with Sylvie down in the collections office, because we're the ones that are working with with the uh um with the envelopes and the postmarks.

Um, you know, what'll what's most important to all of us is that we come up with something that treats everybody the same.

Yep.

And you know, and that's the that's the most important thing.

And that we do as much education as is possible.

And I do think we would want to come up with some kind of three, kind of a you know, a soft opening kind of thing, some sort of a three-month or three or six-month period where there's a little flexibility, but we document what that flexibility looks like, so that we're not being accused of, well, you were nice to my neighbor, but you weren't nice to me.

Well, because we don't like it.

And you've been delinquent eight times out of the last 12.

So I get it.

No, I like I said, I I trust you and Cheryl to come up with something that'll that will work.

And you know, obviously the and even if someone makes an honest mistake or just makes a mistake, and you know, I've seen you work with people who get assessed a hundred dollar penalty, and you've told them look, you you can pay it over ten months because you do have, you know, that's where you do have flexibility.

So I trust you and Cheryl to be kind, and but also you've got a fiduciary responsibility to the city.

I think we all get that too.

So we'll we'll come back to you probably sometime in mid to late March um with uh with some ideas um and uh figure out where we're where we're going from there.

And bring all the information.

I mean, once you enter, so once someone gives you their bank account information and your crediting, it's not a tremendous amount of work.

It's actually easier for your office, isn't it?

It's it it is a little uh laborious to because you've got to do all this data entry into our tax collection system.

You have to pull the report from that, you have to literally confirm every entry because we want to make sure we're because of the fact that we've got you know, tax bills in this state fluctuate depending on whether somebody's done a late homestead declaration or done it, you know, it's not just a one and done number for taxes, but so there is a double check, but it's certainly easier on a per parcel basis to do direct debit than to process a check.

Gotcha that either comes in somebody at the counter or through the mail.

So yes.

Because you can do that in advance.

Exactly.

Which is why I've always tried to mail, I know how busy you are on the 15th.

So I try to mail the checks early so it gets there a few weeks before, and you're not as busy, you know.

Oh, any other questions, comments, counsel.

We trust both of you in luck.

Thank you.

And we'll blame you if something goes wrong, too.

Exactly.

You won't be the only ones.

You own it.

Okay.

Uh council.

I don't have anything under I've I've got a few notations for our March 17th meeting that you've made previously.

Other than that, I don't know if anyone has anything under upcoming business.

Can I ask a question about upcoming business?

We're not gonna meet for quite a while.

Right.

How this is my newbie status still, I guess.

How will we do the warrants and things like that?

I sign them.

You'll just sign them.

And then we'll approve.

I'm not gonna ratify.

Yeah, in our off weeks, I actually um they send me the warrants and I sign them, and then they're ratified.

They're on our consent agenda is ratification.

A whopping longest consent.

Yeah, but don't be surprised.

We may shock Nicholas and actually pull off a council meeting in the first week of March.

I mean, three weeks is a long time to have.

It is town meeting day.

People kind of have that on their minds.

So don't be surprised if I call a special meeting and we're going to work.

Okay, round table.

Counselor.

What a beautiful talent show.

Barry City School had this last week.

Um so uh just really wanted to start off with that and end with uh they're gonna the art show will be um on the 14th, I believe it is.

Uh I gave you all uh an invitation to that last week.

Um just lots of great opportunities to show uh to show up and support our community um with some of these kiddos that are working so hard in so many different ways.

So fantastic.

Councilor Hookartner.

Yes.

Um Sonia and I Councillor Spaulding and I are going to have a Ward 1 meeting at um the Aldrich Public Library on the 18th at 5.30.

And it's it will be we'll have a budget presentation and we'll talk to people about um their questions, answer their questions.

So um, those of you watching, everyone, you don't have to be in Ward One to come.

Just show up.

Um that's 5 30 on this on the 18th, that's a Wednesday.

Thank you.

Councilor Gustin.

Yes.

Counselor Burger.

Yes.

Council Spaulding.

Um yeah, just did a uh my other Ward on counselors then.

Council Ruthier.

Yes.

So yeah, I wish the uh Patriots had had a talent competition uh on Sunday.

No, uh you know, it was uh it was a defensive game.

Hey, uh listen, I'm I'm I'm a Patriot fan through and through, but uh Seattle came to play and they were the better team.

They just uh yeah.

I mean, their defense just held us tough and held us for the whole game, but we got to the big show, and I do appreciate the lights on uh on City Hall.

And uh so first week in March, would anyone have an objection to having a special council meeting in the first full week March is town meeting day?

Yes.

So would we be done?

No, I do it on like a Tuesday or a Thursday.

First weekend in March, that's the first week in March.

Yes, not on a Tuesday.

Not on the Tuesday.

Okay, no.

Thank you actually.

That's town meeting day.

So most people are off that day.

I am uh and yeah, and yeah, so most people aren't aren't working that day anyway.

Okay, we'll be in touch uh with that council.

Are you gonna do a zoom auction?

Oh well, a zoom auction, a virtual auction?

No.

We'll do something fun.

Okay.

I just have one more question for the city manager.

I've noticed that there are holiday lights still up around the um light poles in on the street and stuff.

Does that step all the way?

No, they they come down.

Um we met with Tracy.

Um we have a quarterly meeting with Tracy, and I know she's working with some volunteers to bring those down.

And then the other question was there's this lovely heart in the gazebo, but half of it is they're working on that.

I know there's some, I think there's some wiring issues with it's it belongs to the partnership.

I'll talk to you.

It's biggest issue is the weather.

Yeah, it's been awesome.

It's just been so good.

You know, because you actually it it's hard to take those down or put them up without with gloves on.

Oh, yeah.

And it's been so got awful cold.

I mean, I think this is I I saw that I think this is the first week we've actually strung together.

We will string together five days above 20 degrees.

In a very, very long time.

And it's been hard on obviously hard on, you know, be nice to your fuel delivery people.

They are running ragged.

It is it that is a tough business to be in right now, and be even kinder to the organizations that raise funds to help fuel our neighbors because they're they're not going to make it through the winter, not even close.

It it's just not even degree days are up over 20 percent, which we do a lot of consulting in the propane industry.

Uh 20 percent swing year on year is virtually unheard of.

It it just doesn't happen.

So it's been a tough one.

And with that, counsel, we will uh I'll entertain a motion to adjourn.

So thank you very much.

All those never say aye.

That's all over that.

Uh we are adjourned.

Yeah, no, we don't need to.

Okay, sorry.

Oh my bad.

Mandy, you just