Okay, hi everyone, thank you so much for your patience.

It's 6 43, and we had uh uh special meetings that ran late, so apologies for that.

I'm calling to order the Berkeley City Council meeting today is Tuesday, November 18th, 2025.

Clerk, could you please take the roll?

Okay, Councilmember Kesserwani.

Here, present present.

Trago, present.

O'Keefe here.

Wackaby here.

Unapara here.

Humbert, present, and Mayor Ishii.

Here.

Okay, quorum is present.

All right.

Um we have no ceremonial items this evening.

Um, so I will move over to city manager comments.

Also no city manager comments this evening.

Thank you.

Very good.

I think our city auditor is here and has some comments.

So I will call her up.

All right, good evening.

Um I wanted to share tonight um a few items on the council agenda.

The 2025 audit recommendation follow-up report that my office released in October and the results of an independent third-party audit we initiated of our payroll audit division.

Before I do that, I just wanted to make um quick comments on item eight, the annual appropriations ordinance.

As you know, the city has a very large 28 million dollar deficit.

And during the budget process in June, my office offered 200,000 in salary savings to help with that.

And while the BMC exempts the auditor from the same salary savings as other departments, I do want to share tonight that thanks to information from our budget office.

Um, we do have about another $30,000 in savings, and so we'll be able to contribute some of that, actually, most of that into the general fund.

So, just happy that we can contribute in that way.

So, next I wanted to share highlights from our 2025 uh follow-up report.

Our annual report provides a comprehensive overview where the city stands in implementing audit recommendations and what risks still exist.

From November 2024 to September 2025, city departments implemented 23 open audit recommendations.

As of this update, the departments have implemented 48% or 45 of the 94 total audit recommendations released since 2020.

And I just wanted to say that compared to the last follow-up period, the implementation rate has gone up 11 percentage points.

That's a really great accomplishment.

Um, I'd like to thank the city manager, department heads, staff for their efforts in closing these recommendations.

But there's still more work to be done.

So there's 48 audit recommendations remain, and you can learn more about these open audit recommendations on our public dashboard.

Next, I wanted to share the results of an independent third-party audit we initiated of our payroll audit division.

The City of Berkeley's payroll audit division organizationally sits within our office.

While the payroll audit division is one of the smaller divisions in terms of staff, it is one of the large has one of the largest jobs reviewing and processing biweekly payroll for approximately 1800 city employees in fiscal year 2025.

The division processed approximately 47,000 checks and direct deposits.

It's important to ensure that all those payments are processed correctly because personnel costs represent about 65% of the city's general fund in fiscal year 2025.

I want to first recognize all the payroll clerks in each department.

These are the workers that make sure that all of that information gets entered, as well as the payroll auditors on my team who are ensure that these paychecks go out accurately every two weeks.

It's no small feat, and during COVID, my team they divided themselves into two teams without contact.

So if someone got COVID, there would always be a healthy team, up and up and willing and being able to process the payroll so that all employees would get their paychecks.

So what we do is um within this unit, we periodically will initiate an independent third-party audit to look at the division's internal controls, ensure there's sufficient safeguards against fraud, waste, and abuse, and ensure that payroll is accurate and complies with policies and regulations.

To safeguard our office's independence, we had to contract this out, and GPP Analytics was the one that conducted this audit.

The external audit found that payroll audits procedures ensured and city employees received accurate pay and benefits in the sample they tested.

So let me just say that this is really amazing.

For them to say that there were no payroll um corrections that needed to be done within the sample that they tested.

It means that the system is set up to catch incorrect pay um before pay goes out.

The external auditors also found that the staff in this unit demonstrated detailed command of critical payroll elements within their within a very complex operating environment.

Including working with city management to update the payroll policy and procedure manual, as well as prioritizing the implementation of an electronic timekeeping system.

My office is committed to working with city staff to implement these recommendations.

Obviously, based on uh staffing and resources.

So, in conclusion, I just wanted to thank um city council for your commitment to accountability, providing this forum to share the results of these two important reports.

And I want to thank um my team of staff auditors for supporting this work.

Um, they're really the ones that power this work, and I'm really grateful to them for their dedication to the city.

Thank you very much.

Thank you very much, um Madam Auditor, and um I just want to say I really appreciate your proactiveness in um finding funds that you can give over to the general funds.

We are really in um a scary budget time, and I really appreciate you taking the time to you know to do that to figure out what funds could go over.

So thank you very much.

And also just to your team.

Um, I know they're working really hard, so thank you.

Um, okay, so um, we will now move on to public comment on non-agenda matters.

Okay, we have five speakers, and you can come up in any order.

You know, each have one minute apiece.

First is Steven Alpert, then Chris Boy Suri, uh Edskander, Alex Marenkoff, and Carol Morosevic.

In any order, yep.

Come on up, folks.

If your name is called, please come up.

Thank you.

There's an echo.

Is someone have a Carol, please please come up.

We gotta go.

Okay.

So I returned to the uh Rock Ridge uh business owner on College Avenue, who has been in the same location for 27 years.

Um, and after the upzoning there, she was only offered a three-year lease, as were the other businesses there.

Um I asked her if I got everything right that I had said, and she said yes, and she told me that not only did the property owner only provide short laces to all the businesses there, but he doubled the rent and told the businesses he wanted to keep his options open.

How secure would you feel if your spouse or partner said to you, keep doing what you're doing, but I'm gonna raise the bar, double my expectations, because I want to keep my options open.

And if we really need to take care of our small businesses, they're the heart of our community.

They provide character and they provide revenue.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Chris Boysberg is gonna be yielding his time to me.

Does he need to come up here and say he's doing that?

Or we're gonna okay.

Sorry.

So you were saying that he's gonna give, yeah, I'm Alex, and then he's yielding his okay.

Who's yielding?

Chris is yielding to Alex.

Chris is yielding to Alex.

So you have two minutes.

Okay.

Okay, go ahead.

Ready?

Okay.

Um my name is Alex Marenkov.

I'm a disabled low-income below market rate tenant at K Street Flats.

And after I reported health and safety issues in my unit to the city's environmental health department this summer, management retaliated.

They canceled my confirmed renovation, refused to schedule me for months, ignored doctor my doctor's disability accommodation request, and kept scheduling other tenants ahead of me, even people who never asked for renovation whatsoever.

The renovation wasn't just delayed, it was with health in a way that left me feeling singled out and pushed out of my home.

My BMR unit has lacked parity, stability, and I was cut off from all communication from the landlord regarding my housing needs.

I've now filed a complaint with California Civil Rights Department, and I'm not the only tenant to do so in this building.

This is happening inside a city monitored BMR program where disabled and low-income tenants should be protected, not excluded.

I'm asking council and health housing and community services to strengthen oversight of Cal CHA and FPI management and to ensure disabled BMR tenants receive equal treatment, timely repairs, and real accountability in our city.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay, folks, if your name got called, please come up.

Yeah, go ahead.

Hi guys.

Um just really briefly, I was on my way home and thought I'd stop by.

Um I write the Substack Marin County Confidential at Marin County Confidential.com, and I've been covering a lot of um the Israel lobby's activities um in the Bay Area, Northern California, including Berkeley.

Did just want to let you know I have some video coming up.

Um I went to the uh presentation at UC Berkeley uh law building today.

It was uh uh John Torture Memo U speaking on how Israel won.

And it was I I wanted to make sure that I went, it's a it's definitely a historic moment, um, a terrifying moment.

John U did uh absolutely lived up to his reputation as a war criminal, and I will be releasing that video, my brief interview with him after the event.

Just want to let people know because Berkeley used to care about war and peace, and uh hopefully some people still do.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Very nice.

My name is Ed.

So nice to hear someone talking about uh pressing issues so many tens of thousands of miles away, but I would like to attend to something which was much more uh localized, if you will.

Uh, you know, I don't want to sound like a broken record here.

Um, but this is the first, it's only the second time in my life uh that I've felt absolutely compelled before uh come before the Brooklyn City Council, although I've either lived or studied here for decades.

I'm a little disappointed that our friend here, Igor Tragoob has not been responding to me as well as the mayor's office.

Sorry, so you're not supposed to call out specific people, you have to make your comments to the council whole.

Yeah, go ahead.

You know, something this matter is not gonna go away.

Something very serious had uh transpired um uh a few a few months ago, three months ago, almost to the day in uh right on the corner of Kittridge and Shattock, which falls into district number four, and I have been trying to make contact with um both the mayor's office as well as the council members' office to no avail.

This matter is not going to go away.

Uh I made a special point to come here.

I drove many, many miles to come down here to talk to you to address you in person.

Thank you for your comment.

Is Steven Alpert here?

Pardon?

I'm sorry.

Who's whose name?

This is for non-agenda public comment.

This is the end.

You only have the only person.

Are you waiting till the end of the night?

Can we electron this week?

You have one minute to share.

Okay.

Okay.

It's up to you.

Alright, then.

Um, are there um there may be.

Well, there's public comment.

Is there public comment online?

Yes.

So there.

This is for non-agenda public comment.

Um, we'll take the first five hands raised on Zoom, and there are five hands raised.

First is a phone number ending in zero zero zero.

Press star six to unmute.

Well, maybe we can come back to them.

Next is uh Ken Bukowski.

Can you hear me?

Yes.

Hello.

Uh I just wanted to come with the speaker who described the upsoning of the commercial property and how it threatens the small businesses.

I think we should reconsider the up zoning procedures because we're just handling to the hands of the developers.

Thank you.

Okay.

Thank you.

Next is uh David Schear.

Hi.

Um it's it's really disturbing to hear these stories about um tenants being mistreated in 100% affordable buildings.

We spend millions and millions of dollars and on these on these buildings and these projects, and they're they're there to help people.

Um so you know, I am hoping that this is something that we will be able to do this kind of oversight more closely.

Um, and if anybody has like has this experience, um, it would be they should uh email or reach out to or speak to the housing advisory commission because I know that members of uh that commission definitely want to definitely want to know about this stuff.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Okay.

Next is Della Luna.

Yes, thank you.

I wanted to um second what I'm hearing a request for increased oversight for the affordable housing projects um that the city of Berkeley is financing.

Um a lot.

What I see is a lot of the projects, like the organizations they do things in order to check the box, but they don't actually engage in the full work that um is their mission.

And then secondly, I wanted to bring up something I mentioned before, but I would like to see some sort of education for bikers about how cars drive on the road, and vice versa, for drivers about how bikers navigate the road.

I feel like Berkeley puts in infrastructure for these uh bicycles in the vehicles lanes, but there's no education about how those two bodies work together, and then with the tourism and the turnover with the student body, we need ongoing education because the spaces are quite dangerous.

Thank you.

Okay, we have a speaker with a phone number ending in 211.

You should be able to unmute.

Hi, good evening.

So this is a citizen again.

And also, you know, celebration of one of the best city council.

It hasn't quit because of us.

The way is horrible.

Next mayor are genius.

That is worse.

I don't know about my employee.

She had no tired months ago.

Damage it costs our business, not just our business, our family, employees.

Hundreds of thousands of Bay Area consumers.

I can have nowhere else to get high quality product and product and also low prices.

Jam, shame.

And he just came and he followed you.

I left your message, Mayor, we could go to call me.

He never did.

No, let's solve this thing in this way.

And uh, we need to help our customers.

We're doing that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And um last is a speaker with a phone number ending in zero zero zero.

Not there.

Okay.

Um, we can pick one more card.

There's been nine speakers, so we can pick one more card.

Oh, Eva spoke.

Celeste Marks.

Two of us as well.

Well, your card was still chosen, Mr.

Alpert, so it's up to you.

Good evening.

My wife and I have previously expressed our concerns regarding middle housing ordinance and the proposed upzoning of college, North Shattock, and Solano Avenues.

Council members most likely assume we are opposed to all new housing, also new residents.

That is not true.

We object to the we do not object to reasonable size house structures which are not overwhelmed adjacent buildings or dramatically alter the existing neighborhood character.

Regarding middle housing, if by law a three-story apartments to be built next to our 1912 craftsman, I and others on my street with century old homes should have some input into the design of that structure to ensure it is compatible with the neighborhood.

Middle housing allows for a glass-sided or concrete bonus structure within five feet of our property.

Thank you.

Regarding three up zoning corridors, this city's workshop presentations depicting eight to twelve story structures, were utterly disingenuous.

The majority of these units will be market rate, but few will be affordable.

We reside just 500 feet from the cooperative appointments at 1685 Solano Avenue.

We are delighted to see this 13-unit building was renovated by Bay Area Community Land Trust with seven units designated for those earning at or below 80% of area median income and three units for earning less than 50%.

Unlike the eight-story, 50% dead city bonus structures displayed on Solano Avenue corridor workshop, and the clear omission of 11 story structures permitted with a hundred percent dead city bonus.

This five-story building is set back for the SADWARD, provides one ground level parking for each unit and does not overwhelm the neighborhood.

New construction on a similar scale is most welcome.

Thank you.

Okay, that finishes public comment on non-agenda matters.

Just a couple of comments really quickly.

Someone mentioned biking and lessons for biking and bikers and drivers, and bikey spay actually does do some of that, so please look into it.

And then in terms of the person who spoke earlier about their below market rate unit, um, definitely interested in following up.

I think that they've left already, but um hopefully they'll reach out and let us know what's going on so we can provide some support.

Um, okay, so moving on to our consent calendar.

Do council members have comments.

Councilmember Blackby.

Thanks, madam mayor.

Just a few comments.

Um first um on item three.

I asked that the clerk mark me as a no on item three on consent.

Uh again, I support the policy on the transfer tax rebate for wildfire hardening, but don't support the hard cliff that we uh amended it to.

Um now we've got a seismic program and a home hardening program that are out of sync, so I look forward to bringing some amendments next year that hopefully would be something I could support and the rest of the council could support.

But I'm a no on it for now.

Um I want to thank the city manager on item four for providing some uh amendments to the coordinated pricing algorithm item that we passed earlier this year, and I'm hopeful that will help uh kind of help us move forward in uh in an effective way with that policy.

Um on item eight, which is the uh annual appropriations ordinance.

Um, the budget committee spent a couple of meetings um reviewing this proposal.

I just want to thank the city manager and his team, the budget manager, Marty Carr, my colleagues on the budget committee for a pretty thorough um review of what's been proposed here, and also look forward to future budget processes where some of the carryover and some of the big items that end up here in this AAO will be considered as part of the regular budget process.

Um, and I think will just help streamline it and give us all visibility into the next year in a more comprehensive way.

So, look, I really appreciate that um the budget team is already thinking about that, and I look forward to working with them on that process.

Um, on item 18 to um Scott Gilman and the parks team.

Uh, I know this is a license agreement for the temporary parking piece for the regional sports complex, but this is also a great sign that we're about to embark on the new construction um at Tom Bates, which will be an additional restroom, additional soccer field, six pickleball courts, a meeting facility, but really enhancing what we have there and making it more usable for the community.

So it's a great step, and I'm looking forward to what comes next.

Um, I want to thank my council colleague Terry Taplin for item 26.

Again, it's kind of a budgetary item, but it's helping us.

Um, we already, you know, do a good job at thinking about our bond capacity, but continuing to plan ahead and being strategic about um what kind of bond um program do we need to embark upon.

How are we making progress towards um our overall infrastructure needs?

You know, just again looking to the long term and being thoughtful as we do that planning, and so I just want to thank Councilmember Taplin for putting this out there and helping us embark on that process.

And last and you'll see, by the way, in that item there was a fair amount of work also with the budget committee to tweak it, refine it, and make sure that that the finance team, the city manager's office, and our committee were all uh aligned with councilmember taplin, and you'll see all those edits um listed in the packet.

Uh then the last item, item 27.

Um, I was proud to be a co-sponsor of uh this item that Councilmember Lunapara authored, so thank you for letting me join that item.

Um, this item updates uh protections for our residents' personal data and ensures that city contractors aren't assisting federal immigration enforcement, really updates our existing policy with the new sanctuary city ordinance, uh, and we shorten the cure period uh to make sure that if we find um a partner that is out of compliance that we address it uh much sooner, working with the city manager and team to make sure that we can implement that in a way that that makes sense.

Um, so I think that's it.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilmember.

Councilmember Lunopara.

Thank you.

Um, I am very proud of the community work and um my council colleagues' support of the sanctuary city contracting ordinance.

This item updates the contracting ordinance to align with our newly passed sanctuary city Ordinance.

Um, also very grateful for the work that the city attorney's office and city manager's office have done to ensure that this ordinance is feasible for staff to implement.

And I also really wanted to thank City Auditor Jenny Wong for and her team for producing a really outstanding audit of our payroll services.

This is some of the most important work that our city takes on.

We need to be able to implement legislation properly and receive updates about its effectiveness.

So thank you very much for taking that on.

And congratulations on those items.

Thank you.

Councilmember Lunapar, just a clarifying question.

Do we um we're just adopting the version that's in sub two?

Also includes the amendments that were in sub-the changes and subscribe sub two.

Yeah, it's a cumulative.

Okay.

Great.

Thanks.

Thank you.

Councilmember Traegup.

Thank you.

Um continuing on with the round of thanks.

Thank you to Madam City Attorney for her continued impressive work, and thank you to everyone on your team.

We're so fortunate in the city to have such a wonderful team of auditors.

Um really appreciate your efforts.

Um item four uh amendments to the ordinance prohibiting the use of the sale or use of coordinated pricing algorithms.

Um, I am very grateful to um many, uh, but in particular, City Attorney Brown and her team for helping us uh land this.

I believe that even with all the changes, um, it still is one of the strongest ordinances in the nation of this kind.

Um, item seven, I'm one to uh appreciate uh our city manager and the uh Kerry Arredondo and uh everyone on the team uh for this important step forward um to launch a transitional housing and wraparound services program by January 1st, 2026, that will provide trauma-informed culturally responsive case management, treatment connections, supportive services, and so much more.

Uh and then last but not least, I would like to thank Councilmember Taplan for his item 26 to help us um when we think about budgeting in the future um and uh looking at our investments to do it in a more predictable fashion.

Um, and on item 27, um I um very grateful to council member Lenopfara um for authoring this item and to the co-sponsors, and I am uh elated to be able to vote yes on updates to the Sanctuary City contracting ordinance.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Other comments from my council colleagues.

Uh yes, Councilmember Humbert.

Yes, excuse me.

Thank you, madam mayor.

Uh I just want to appreciate being added as a co-sponsor to the important item number 27, Sanctuary City Contracting Ordinance updates, which will bring our contracting ordinance into um, you know, into uh a lot, you know, I missing the word.

It will mirror, it will allow it to mirror key definitions with the language in our new Sanctuary City ordinance.

Uh, important, a very important item.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Anyone else?

Okay, um, I want to just add, I'm very happy to be approving the contract for options recovery to administer the care bridge program and look forward to getting this program off the ground.

Big thank you again, Carrie.

Um, I'd like to thank the city manager's manager's office, the budget manager, and all the depart departments for scouring their budgets and looking for uh what are necessary expenditures and carryover for the AA01.

Um we had a thorough discussion in budget and finance, and I'm glad that we're able to move this move forward this recommendation.

So thank you all so much for your work.

I know that was a lot.

Um, and for 27, I want to thank Councilmember Benapara for working with staff to update and improve the sanctuary contracting ordinance that we can better provide safeguards to our immigrant community.

I'm really happy to co-sponsor this important item and really want to thank staff because I think this is a good example of us working together to figure out you know how to get to yes.

Um, so thank you all very much for that.

Um, next, is there any comment on consent calendar or information items only?

Yes, coming up.

And folks online, just to get yourselves ready.

We are taking consent, uh comments on consent and information items only.

Okay, um let's see.

Uh first, thanks so much.

I'm really looking forward to uh on number seven.

Uh has the Care Bridge program uh moves forward.

Options is absolutely the provider that is experienced and will do an excellent job and is collaborative on every level in making things happen.

Uh and this is a clear need.

It'll uh be interesting to see uh how the Golden Bear homes partnership transfer evolves.

That's not really clear.

I uh do want to say that uh the uh I'm pleased to see that council and the city manager's office continues to develop the various nuances uh that are is that are constantly evolving with the Sanctuary City contracting.

Uh this is not only undocumented immigrants, actually, permanent residents are uh in jeopardy too.

There are permanent residents that are being deported uh for such quote offenses such as marijuana and other, and having uh uh had drug offenses against them.

Um, there was a recent case where someone who has been here since he's eight years old and is now 35, uh, even though the judge upheld him being able to stay here because they said he had not sufficiently showed um rehabilitation for his his drug offenses, was deported back to the Bahamas, and he's a permanent resident since he was eight years old.

Same thing with a woman uh who's Canadian who is five year old um been here since she's five, uh a permanent resident, so it's not only touching the undocumented immigrants, and of course, we know what's happening in North Carolina now, and as we see that list of these dangerous offenders, it starts out with gang violence and kidnapping and then goes to shopping care.

Thanks to me.

Yes, go ahead.

Hi, I'm uh Mike Thomas, uh, the senior director of programs from options recovery services, and I'd like to thank the city council, the mayor, the city managers, um, the Patel family, uh Carrie, uh Arodondo, and uh the whole city for giving us the opportunity to um do the new uh CareBridge uh program.

I'm really excited.

I've I've uh oversaw many programs uh partnered with the city, and I'm very, very excited about this one because I think we're addressing a uh a huge need uh in in a very innovative way, and um I'm really excited to uh see you all again to report the great outcomes that I anticipate.

And again, um thank you very much for the opportunity and um thank you.

Thank you.

Good evening to you all.

Really grateful to be here.

Thank you all for this opportunity.

You know, when I was a boy, my grandmother used to tell us it takes a village.

I didn't understand that until things like this take place.

So uh as well, I echo what he says.

What uh Mike says, my name is George Smith.

I'm a director of reentry and father's prevention for options recovery services, and I have the privilege of being able to help build out this program, and I really look forward to being able to house these folks, get them what they need, get that safety, um, and also really align folks with the resources that they need.

You talk about the trauma informed care, the life skills, and things of that nature.

We know that safety uh housing is so important to folks.

You know, it's one of the foundations of Maslow's heart hierarchy.

So again, thanks to Dr.

Carey, thank you, Madam Mayor.

Uh, thank you to the Patel family.

Thank you for options recovery services.

Twenty-six years ago, Dr.

Davita Cody founded this company with the hope that anybody, anywhere without funds, without resources, can have the treatment that they need.

And to see this thing come to fruition today in 2025 and 2026.

My heart is just blessed to experience it.

So thank you all again, and I'll give you back your time.

Enjoy the rest of your evening.

Thank you so much.

This is the family that owns the hotel.

Is that right?

Okay, well, thank you also.

I was curious which item you're here for.

Thank you very much.

I appreciate it.

Um, it's it's not often that we get to see people come who are really impacted in this way, and so I just really want to thank you all so much for being here too.

It's um for me, it's it's very special.

It helps to bring some of these things to life that we're we're working on.

So thank you all so much.

Um, okay.

Any other comments online for consent calendar information items only?

Uh, one speaker with a phone number ending.

Oh, two speakers.

Uh phone number ending in zero zero zero.

Public comment on consent.

Oh, okay.

Um next speaker's Theo Gordon.

Hello, council members.

Uh, my name is Theo Gordon.

Uh, I'm asking you to pull item 19 from uh the consent calendar and take it up independently.

Uh this is a tax giveaway to one property owner in the city, uh, because the Baja and LPC have decided this property is more special than the rest of all of the other 1915 properties in the city.

Uh, as a homeowner in Berkeley who owns a very old uh property that is on Berkeley walking tours, I don't get any special tax treatment from the city to maintain my own property, and I don't think that we in this budgetary environment we should be handing out tax breaks uh willy-nilly.

Uh, this should be taken up by the full council.

Thank you.

Thank you, Theo.

Okay, that's it.

No other speakers.

Okay, very good.

Um, is there um a motion to approve the consent calendar?

So moved.

Okay, second from council member Trakeb.

And um, is there any opposition besides the noted no from council member Blackaby?

No, okay, then our consent calendar has been approved.

Thank you all so much.

Thank you all for coming.

Um, okay.

So we are moving down to our action calendar.

Excuse me.

Okay, moving on to item 28.

Adoption of Berkeley building codes, including local amendments to California Building Standards Code.

And I'll give you all a minute to get all set up.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mayor.

Good evening, council members.

Jordan Klein, director of planning and development.

I'm joined at the staff table by the Berkeley Building Official David Lopez and the assistant building official Jeff Jensen.

So every uh three years, the California building standards codes are updated to uh reflect the latest advances in technology, energy efficiency, safety, sustainability.

And then local municipalities um adopt those codes by reference, including any local amendments to reflect local conditions.

And so that's the action for you tonight.

Second reading, which is required to be a public hearing.

We are carrying forward all of the previous local amendments.

The action doesn't include any new local amendments.

There is work underway to consider new local amendments, but that's not part of this action at this time.

We're hoping to bring to you some consideration of uh new local reach codes at some point in 2026.

So that concludes the staff presentation.

We're available to answer any questions.

Thank you for that long complex presentation.

Are there any questions for anyone?

Okay.

Oh, you do have a question.

Thank you, Director Klein.

That was helpful to know.

So you're not proposing anything new here.

So, because I because I I looked at the bullets at the beginning, and I see some what what so my perspective on this, and I I think I I don't know if you're watching, you know, with the fire code updates, you know.

What I what I want to make sure we're sensitive to is increasing the cost of housing and and considering the trade-offs.

Um, you know, oftentimes, you know, I appreciate what the code is trying to do.

Obviously, we need safe buildings that are sustainable.

Um, so I did just want to pause for a moment.

Can you help me understand?

Um the bullet on the top of page two, it talks about retaining Berkeley's more stringent requirements for technical structural standards, climatic and geographic design criteria, and readopting these appendices.

Uh are you able to explain that a little bit more?

What those are about?

Well, the technical structural standards.

Yeah, the technical structural standards and the climatic and geographic design criteria.

Okay, so the structural standards.

Well, being in a seismic zone that we are the standards that we have are we don't allow certain uh shear walls, like drywall.

We don't allow drywall to be a sheer wall.

Okay, Berkeley, um, we also don't allow just plain concrete in certain instances.

I believe we only allow plain concrete in one instance now where the code allows it in a lot of different places.

Um the other standard that we have is for existing buildings, so for soft story or URM renovations, which are mandatory programs in our city, those are structural standards that we have that are more stringent than the model codes.

Okay, thank you for that.

And then the other one, I just want to note so we have more stringent electrical vehicle charging requirements in all building types, and you know, anecdotal, anecdotally, I am seeing you know, folks who have uh purchased an electric vehicle, they don't have a parking on off-street parking space and they're doing the wires, you know, on the sidewalk.

Can you just briefly describe that requirement?

Well, the state actually now requires all dwelling new dwelling units to have a capable AV charging infrastructure.

So the state's actually Oh, so it's not more stringent as well.

That's not really more stringent.

So that's for new dwellings.

New dwellings, right?

We don't have anything for existing.

The reason the amendments are written the way they are is that our previous adopted uh ordinance, those amendments were written under the mid-cycle code text, and so we had to rewrite them to the new code text, and they change the state changed it around, and that's why you see such a breakdown as uh single family dwellings, multi-story with assigned parking, multi- I mean multi-dwelling with assigned parking, multi-dwelling with unassigned parking, um, there's new requirements for office and retail, and also for not, you know, for non-residential other than office and retail, and also amendments were done by the state for existing parking uh facilities.

Okay, and so adding the the electric vehicle charging requirements in these for these various types of uh uses.

So I don't want to go off on a tangent on this, but um so with a single family home, does our can you remind me?

Does our code say we were you're required to have an off-street parking spot?

It does not.

That's not that's a zoning, yeah.

Yeah, that's a zoning thing, but but the reason why I'm asking is so if somebody wants to remodel their home and they come with a permit seeking a remodel.

Are you looking at that to see that they're adding this requirement for the electric vehicle charging or is that only going to be for new for new units?

For new single family dwellings?

Okay, and it is if somebody has an accessory dwelling unit, they're not required to have parking in the city, but if they choose to have off-street parking, this is saying you do have to have electric vehicle charging for that ADU parking spot, correct?

If it's a brand new one, yes.

It's a brand new.

Okay, so um, all right, I'll just leave it at that.

Thank you very much.

Thank you for your question.

Are there um any is there any public comment on item 28?

This is the adoption of Berkeley building codes, including local amendments to California building standards code.

Any public comment online?

No.

Okay.

Any comments from my council colleagues?

Okay.

Is there a motion?

To close the public hearing.

To close the public hearing.

I so move.

Second.

Is there any objection to closing the public hearing?

Okay.

The public hearing is closed.

Um I will entertain other motions.

So moved.

Second.

Okay.

And um any objection to the motion, which is the adoption of the building codes, Berkeley building codes.

Nope.

Okay.

Motion is passed.

Thank you very much.

Um moving on to item 29, which is the zoning ordinance amendments.

Thank you all so much for coming, by the way.

Apologies.

Um, zoning ordinance amendments to Title 23 of the Berkeley Municipal Code for Consistency with State Law and Technical Edits.

SLTE 2025.

Good evening.

Hello.

Robert Rivera is here to present for staff.

Take it away, Robert.

All right, good evening, Commissioner.

Um, sorry, Council.

Staff is bringing forward uh state law technical edits, which are routine non set of the non-cepted technical uh amendments to the zoning ordinance to correct errors, update references, and clarify existing practice in order to maintain consistency and integrity as directed by council in 2021.

Uh staff recommends the city council approve the proposed ordinance amendments and we're available for any questions.

Okay, any questions?

Thank you, Madam Mayor.

Oh, thank you, Madam Mayor.

Um, it is this the process that was started under um as part of the um committee process, known as ZORP, my second least favorite acronym of all time.

Correct.

It it was the process started to um update the zoning ordinance and correct those those typos and errors.

So the zoning ordinance wait that that was my only question.

Thank you.

Okay, thank you very much.

Um is there, are there any other questions?

Okay, is there any public comment on item 29, the zoning ordinance amendments to title 23 of the Berkeley Municipal Code for consistency with state law and technical edits?

Okay, very good.

Um, is there a motion to close the public hearing?

So moved.

Second.

Okay.

Um, is there any opposition to closing the public hearing?

All right, the public hearing is closed, and uh I will entertain other motions.

Um, so moved to end just with appreciation to staff to continuing this process.

I used to serve on this committee along with council member.

Oh, you were not on this.

Okay.

All right, very good.

Is there a second?

I second, I also wasn't on the on the social media.

Okay.

All right then.

Um is there any opposition to approving the motion?

Okay, then motion is passed.

Thank you all very much for being here.

All right, moving on to item number 30, pausing city of Berkeley authorization for mills act agreements from um, well, from all of our names.

Council member Humbert, author Mayor Ishi, co-sponsor, councilmember Kesserwani, co-sponsor, council member Lunopara, co-sponsor.

I'm just reading.

Um, did you want to make a presentation or just sure, madam Mayor?

I'd be happy to make a short presentation.

Uh, but before I do, I want to read into the record um uh inserting into the item under the environmental sustainability and climate impacts section that quote, the city finds that this resolution does not constitute a quote project end quote within the meaning of the California Environmental Quality Act perennial CEQA in quote in perenne pursuant to CEQA guidelines section one five three seven eight.

Thanks.

Um I want to thank all members of the landmarks preservation commission for their prior work reviewing these applications and district eight LPC Commissioner Denise Hall Montgomery for her work and for discussing the Mills Act considerations with me in helping inform this item.

I want to emphasize that this item is not about devaluing landmark preservation in general or whether any particular landmark is worthy of preservation.

This is about our budget, which is constrained at this point.

Our priorities and whether this program is achieving preservation and equity goals.

Given our current budget crisis, the lack of strong evidence that relinquished tax dollars are cost effectively helping preserve landmarks and the equity implications of this program.

I think that pausing is the only responsible course.

The Mills Act was passed at a time when California homes and commercial properties, especially those which were historic but distressed, were much more affordable.

In that context, it made sense to create a program that would provide relief to cash-strapped families and small businesses that wanted to purchase these properties and fix them up.

But this is no longer the case.

Even our most distressed properties now go for prices that tend to lock out all but the most affluent, and that's certainly true here in Berkeley.

And those folks, by and large, do not need these tax breaks.

As it currently operates, the Mills Act program tends to remove funding from the city budget overall and from the schools and from the county.

Um but the city budget would provide services for everyone to create a tax break for those toward the upper end of the income spectrum.

And this is a regressive policy.

There may be ways in the future to adjust this program so that we are ensuring the benefits are more equitably distributed in terms of geography and income.

But again, given our budget crunch, I just can't justify calling for the funding and staff time this would require at this point.

And until we have the resources to undertake this, I think that a pro a pause is appropriate.

So again, I want to thank everyone, my co-sponsors, uh, the planning staff and our landmarks preservation commission for their previous work to review and administer these contracts, and I look forward to taking this small but fiscally responsible step.

Thank you.

Councilmember, is there anything you want to add in terms of any changes in language or you might want to address?

It was just that one item that I read into the record, and and we did file a supplemental, so that uh I would bring attention to the supplemental, which changes some dates.

Do you want to speak more to that at all?

No, would you like to?

Well, I just was thinking that maybe it might be good too before um our public comment.

Sure.

Well, I can tell you that um let me let me call up the supplemental.

What the supplemental does, there are three pending applications at this point.

One I think we just passed on the actually just passed on the consent calendar.

Um this allows the two pending applications, one of which was approved by the landmarks commission to go forward, but inserts a cutoff date of I think the end of this month.

Tomorrow, tomorrow 19th.

Thanks.

Thank you.

I appreciate that.

Yeah, okay.

Um, great.

Any questions for public comment on this item?

Come on up if you want public if you have public comment.

So this is public on uh public comment on number 30, pausing City of Berkeley authorization for Mills Act agreements.

Um my name is Julie Noctway, and I've lived in Berkeley since 1980.

And Mark is um, I understand you both have studied the Mills Act and the financial involvement with the budget, but I think that there's a lot of points that have been made by Baja, and they presented a document to you which outlined a lot more factual data about why these 360 buildings that have been landmarked are contributing to the architectural heritage of our state in our city, and that they are they generate income by the permits that are required, and by the contractors and architects who work on them to maintain them, and by the house tours and visitors who come to Berkeley to see the architectural heritage, which is unique.

So I think you should consider taking a little bit more time before you decide to pause the program and look at what Leila Montcharse had outlined in her program and her details of facts about the Mills Act because it is the single most uh incentive program for architectural heritage and restoration in the state of California.

That's all.

Thank you, Julie.

Uh hello, um, my name's Jeff Baker, and first I want to thank you for bringing this very common sense reform forward with uh alacrity that um suits the kind of budget and fiscal situation of the city.

Uh there is only one thing that I would like to add that I think that the language of the recommendation could be um slightly improved, and that would be in terms of these contracts are not self-canceling, and that they will not not be renewed in the absence of action to cancel them.

Uh so uh to me, having studied the matter that didn't jump out in the recommendation.

Uh, if you direct the city to not renew them, that's not really an event that happens by itself.

So I might suggest if you wish to amend it that you would direct the city to affirmatively cancel the contracts at their first opportunity.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Is there um any other public comment here in person?

No, okay, or anyone online.

Yes, there are five hands raised online.

Um first uh speaker is John Bernstein.

Hello everyone, I hope you've been okay.

Yes.

Great.

Thanks so much.

Um, I'm a Berkeley neighbor.

My background is in land use and GIS mapping and mathematics.

Um, I got interested in the evidence that is presented to justify um stopping pausing the mills act.

I looked at the um spreadsheet that formed the primary evidence for council member Humbert's um proposal.

And I want to thank Councilmember Humbert Humbert um sincerely because um in fact he accepted the fact that there were some major flaws.

The major flaw is that the cost of the program is not six hundred thousand dollars a year.

The cost is actually much lower because of math errors, um, which were created in the performance of the spreadsheet.

In fact, in fact, the program costs about 186,000 a year, which is a tiny percentage of the city budget.

Having said that, I realize that there is a budget deficit, but this thing is just about 0.002% of the city budget.

It's a tiny amount.

But the spreadsheet also looks out leaves out a bunch of other important facts.

First of all, the city charges major features of the program, and those now total about $500,000.

Second of all, from the permits that were granted for this, which are online, it's possible to estimate that the value of the work on all those Mills Act project properties is over five million dollars.

So I would say the city council is acting based on very faulty and erroneous information.

I suggest that a referral to council agencies to verify um some of our assertions and some of the proponents' assertions would be a very good idea.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Okay.

Next speaker is Mike.

Mike, you should be able to unmute.

Hi.

I am uh thank you for your time.

I'm one of the two applicants that I believe is kind of in the uh the gray area right now for the mills act uh for Berkeley.

Um I don't know where kind of all the things are gonna net out.

We uh are one of the kind of folks who actually of our own accord raise our hand and try to get our um house looked at by a third party and rendered as a historical resource.

Um in order to try to do the maintenance work um on the exterior.

Um it does not cover the cost of the maintenance work, um, it just helps to be able to defray some of the costs, so it's kind of a in a sense of public-private partnership on trying to kind of maintain the historical nature of the home.

Um I don't know where the council is going to kind of net out on this.

Um there's a lot more kind of information around the notion of why preservation pays back pretty quickly.

Um the one thing I will say is that similar to cities like Los Angeles, um, there needs to be an off-ramp for people that self-select if you're going to kind of take away the the Mills Act.

In other words, you shouldn't be kind of saying, yes, you know, here's the process by which it can potentially be available for um this um this act, and then kind of in a sense pull the rug, and then have people have to maintain the cost of trying to do all the things that come with owning and trying to upkeep a historical uh property without being to avail themselves of the statewide um considerations.

Okay, thank you.

Thank you.

And um just to clarify, because I think this is important that in the earlier presentation by council member Humbert, he mentioned that those those um applications will still be considered, just none the pause happens essentially for any applications that are submitted past the November 19th date.

Is that correct?

That's that's correct.

Okay, just because I think that person was unclear, so I just wanted to make sure we we clarified that.

Okay, next is Kelly Hammergren.

Okay, can you hear me now?

Yes, okay.

Um, so I have been hearing that there are some uh problems with the cost of this program.

Um I would hope that you take a long hard look at that.

Um it's disappointing that the recommendations from the landmarks preservation commission have not made it to City Council because the landmarks preservation commission put together recommendations for uh better management of the mills act and limiting the number of applications per year to three, and to uh end the automatic renewal of Mills Act um applications.

So that uh they just don't continue forever if there's an end, and also reporting at the five-year mark on the mills act and all of these recommendations from the landmarks preservation commission, which I read from their minutes, um, sound to me to be far more reasonable than to just say we're gonna pause this for some indefinite period.

Uh I do think that as we are um remaking the city with new buildings, it also serves us to preserve our historical buildings, and so uh this is not um my evidence to be the great expense that has been purported to be, and it looks like there are many benefits that come that would come from continuing it in a limited fashion.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Kelly.

Okay, next is Theo Gordon.

Hello, Council members.

I actually want to echo the pre one of the previous callers, I think John Bernstein, who was questioning the math and whether the math is clear or not.

And I think that he might be right there.

And that's exactly why we need to stop the program.

The idea that LPC and their friends at Baja are willy-nilly have willy-nilly handing out tax breaks and no one knows how many are out there, what they cost, and when whether any work is being done, just shows that this program has been grossly mismanaged.

And the people defending the program today had plenty of opportunity to fix it.

Maybe LPC wants to weigh in on how to fix it.

They could have done that over the last 30 years, but they haven't until we started calling attention to it because it was benefiting them and their friends.

I can tell you that there are several of these buildings in my neighborhood where no work has been done.

There's one in particular on Ashby is a derelict hazard and an eyesore.

And I want to know why I am subsidizing through my property tax dollars, uh, this building that has had zero work done on it and looks like it's about to fall apart.

Thank you.

Thank you, Theo.

Uh next is David Scheer.

Hi.

Um I support this pause tonight.

I feel the same way about the Mills Act that I felt about the recent landmarks reserve um uh referral.

I appreciate that some people really care about architecture and really like the way that neighborhoods look today.

We should not be spending tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars to finance what is truly an incredibly niche hobby that some people have, which is fine.

Um, as far as cost is concerned, I don't know if the numbers that we're talking about include staff time for managing the Mills Act, uh following up on all these contracts, um, staffing the landmarks preservation commission.

So, you know, it's it's there's I would say uncertainties on both sides.

If this kind of preservation and landmarking and these Mills Act subsidies are important, we need to do it in a systematic way.

The landmarks preservation ordinance was passed what 40 years ago, 50 years ago.

I don't understand how we're still discovering new landmarks.

Um that there's something that's a landmark and historical today that was not so 10 years ago or 20 years ago.

Um it seems like there's a real problem in this process if it's been 40 or 50 years and we have there are not that many buildings in Berkeley.

Um, so uh yeah, I think that we need to hit the pause on all of this.

We need to, I think take like a first principles approach.

What is the point of these policies?

What is it that we want to accomplish?

How much money are we willing to spend?

What is the criteria for success or for failure?

And what is the definition of done because it seems like there is no, it seems like that we don't have answers to any of these questions.

Um, and it seems like kind of the basics of uh policy when we're talking about the kinds of dollars that we're talking about.

So thank you.

Have a great night.

Thank you.

Okay.

Uh two more speakers.

We have uh first Sarah Bell.

Hi, um, thank you so much, Council, for recognizing me.

Um I'll be brief.

I'm here to speak in favor of passing the Mills Act reform tonight and pausing um any future applications.

Um, I think the data speaks for itself.

Um many properties um that are receiving this benefit aren't even um having work done on them, aren't even um being actively preserved, and indeed many are um derelict.

Um, even however, if this system weren't so clearly being abused, uh I think there are still more many more important ways to spend our cities right now very constrained.

We could be spending that money on schools, affordable housing, street safety.

Um anyway, um, yeah, please um please pass this item, and thank you so much for doing the work to uh reform our MILS Act implementation.

Thank you.

Okay, uh thank you.

Thank you.

Last hand raise is uh Jeremy Butler Pinkham.

Yes, can everybody hear me?

Uh it's a little bit faint if you could speak up.

Sure.

Um I just wanted to um kind of echo what some of the other colleagues mentioned about the the data being presented, um, really lacking um in sort of in the whole picture.

Um I mean, I think I think somebody pointed out 6000, sort of gross overestimation of what this is is costing the city.

Obviously, there is stop time associated with these Mills Act contracts that that needs to be factored in.

Um, but I think until we really have all the information and all the proposals of what this program really does cost the city, how can we be making an educated vote on something that um is at this point really just sort of speculated by one uh one member of the public?

Um let's see, I had another point.

Um I think that uh you know we're taking away the sort of the the one um the one incentive for homeowners to really preserve properties and to self-certify their properties as as historic um through a pretty onerous process with the LPC and City Council that has to ultimately approve those applications.

Um I also want to point out that the city of Berkeley, unlike many other jurisdictions, didn't do their own historic assessment and survey of our properties, and so at this point um it's the onus is now on the individual homeowners to sort of um you know to step forward and um and um apply for these landmarks, and there isn't a sort of uh uh uh ubiquitous survey that's been done on the certain properties.

So it just seems like um we sort of missed that vote.

Uh, just go open other.

Thank you.

Thanks for your comment.

Your time is up.

Uh that's all.

That's all the public comments.

Okay, very good.

Thank you very much.

Um are there comments from my council colleagues um starting with Council Member Lunopara?

Thank you.

Um I want to think first, I want to thank Councilmember Humbert for leading the effort on this.

Um our city is facing a structural deficit, um, and we are inevitably going to have to cut programming, and none of that is without sacrifice.

Um ultimately I don't think that the city is able to retain these programs.

Uh programs such as this one while we face our structural deficit, um, and weighing this program with so many of the other um programs that are that and staff that our city has to maintain.

I don't think it's worth to continue prioritizing this.

So um I want to thank Councilmember Humbert for allowing me to co-sponsor this as well.

Um I also want to thank my LPC commissioner for being such a strong thought partner in this process and for advocating in uh advocating for the critical importance of equitable and thoughtful landmark preservation.

And I'm grateful to the commission broadly.

Um I want to kind of defend them a little bit and their work as well.

Even if this wasn't true before, the modern day LPC is made up of a diverse group of residents with differing perspectives on landmarks and how to approach historic preservation and development.

And I want to caution against painting the commission in negative light when they have been looking into how to amend the Mills Act in good faith.

Um we did kind of leapfrog um leapfrog them a little bit, but um I still appreciate their efforts, and I I think that they're they're working towards the same issue that we are.

Thanks.

Thank you, Councilmember.

Oh, thank you.

Council member Trakeup.

Thank you.

I have some questions and then brief comments.

Um, my questions are um I actually uh well I I don't know if in my lifetime I will ever own a MILS Act eligible property.

So I just don't know what I don't know.

So how does the sport in practice?

Um what is the length of a contract?

Um and uh um what would be the administrative procedure um around uh uh tracking or monitoring if uh uh whether it's through a local jurisdiction or through a different agency.

Uh planning director Klein can answer some of those uh one who asked questions.

I mean, the length of the contract is 10 years, and staff in the planning department are the ones that administer the program.

Um so if you have more specific questions, I think Director Klein can probably answer those more easily.

Okay, so after 10 years, what happens?

So the initial term of the contract is 10 years.

Each year starting the first anniversary of that 10 year period, the term is extended by one year unless the city sends a notice of non-renewal.

So there's always a 10-year period term remaining.

So, and as soon as the city sends a non-renewal notice, then the 10 year term does not grow from that point on, and at that point the value of the Mills Act benefit gradually decreases so that it's not turned off immediately.

That's how this is and by the way, this is all governed by state law, yeah, and it including both the government code and the revenue and taxation code dictate how this program works.

So once we send the notice of non-renewal to the contract holders, they will still enjoy in that first year after non-renewal about 90% of the benefit, and then the second year about 80% of the benefit, and then after 10 years, they will pay what they would have paid under uh a normal assessment without a uh if as if they were not a Mills Act contract owner.

I really appreciate that explanation, Jordan.

Um, and I have one more question, and I think it might be for Paul, and it's just it um, notwithstanding whatever action we may or may not take tonight, um what if anything would preclude the LPC from forwarding a recommendation to the council.

They would be free to forward a recommendation to the council if they so chose.

Okay, thank you.

Uh so um I I will just say um I appreciate council member Humbert's um change in supplemental two because um the three pending applications that did give me pause um and that is uh no longer in the item, and I think that is um the appropriate way to um deal with this matter.

Um given the uh budget um situation that we are in, um, I will be supporting this item as amended, um, and I would just like to associate myself with council member Lena Parros' comments um and appreciate the good work that the landmarks preservation commission does.

Um, these are individuals with expertise in historic preservation.

Um, and and we do rely upon their expertise um uh quite often.

Uh and so to the commission um if there are other um aspects of this that you feel the council should look at, um I certainly um would be very interested in hearing um what the commission has to recommend um uh but yeah I wanted to just thank um the author for um you know um this item did not start in a way that um I probably could support, but um uh so I I also appreciate uh the work of building consensus uh on on this item.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilmember Humbert.

Yeah, um I appreciate folks have raised issues about how the individual contracts that have been approved expire, and we have a one of our whereas clauses, um, or rather one of our be it further resolved clauses, uh reads as follows.

Be it further resolved that any existing Mills Act contracts and any Mills Act contracts approved for properties applying before the cutoff of November 19th, 2025, shall be allowed to expire at the end of their contract terms and shall not be considered for renewal unless and until the city council takes further action to reauthorize the use of the agreements for historic property preservation as specified in California government section code sections 502 80 at sec for qualified historic properties.

And I'm concerned that maybe we need to add um an additional clause in there or um some additional text that would um instruct uh the city manager to send out um termination notices so that um that 10-year period expires for each contract.

I would say, council member, that that would make it abundantly clear.

Our reading of this as it is, what we would do if you pass it as is, is that any any contract that had reached that 10 10 year mark that Director Klein described would be getting a letter of non-renewal from us, and we would just start that, we'd stop their tenure clock and they'd start that process.

So that is how we're interpreting that.

Okay, however, if you want to add that clarification, that makes it completely clear.

So, but but I think it's pretty clear as it is.

Okay, I think I would like to add that clarification.

Um, somebody have some suggested language, what would what would we include?

Um maybe what I suggested that that with respect to each one of the contracts, the city manager um shall send out um termination notices.

She'll send out a letter of non-renewal or letter of non-renewal, yeah.

Okay, thank you very much.

I appreciate you clarifying that.

Um Councilmember, yeah, Council Member Castarwani.

Thank you very much, Madam Mayor.

Uh, thank you, Councilmember Humbert, for authoring this item.

Um, I just wanted to clarify.

So the the letter of non-renewal goes to everybody who is currently um receiving this benefit.

It would go to everybody who has a mills act contract that is hit the 10-year mark.

So they well, I mean, I guess.

It seems like it needs to go to everybody.

Actually, you're right, it could go to everyone, and then that would stop their clock.

I so I wanted to clarify that.

Everybody needs to be notified and then because if you've it been experiencing this benefit for one year, um you need you need to start being ramped down over a 10-year period.

So, okay, so Director Klein, I is that correct?

Yeah, that's right.

That is right.

Okay, okay, so I uh council member Humbert, can you just say that again what your proposed amendment is then?

Um perhaps our recommendation.

Uh could you what if the city council would uh direct the uh city manager to initiate non-renewal proceedings of all Mills Act contracts at the earliest opportunity.

Yeah, and I think that's what my language okay, yeah.

As long as it says all, I I think that was the clarification that I wanted.

Okay, thank you very much.

So did I'm sorry, did you get that, Mr.

City Clerk?

I just want to make sure.

Thank you.

Okay, very good.

Okay, you got it.

All right, thank you.

Thanks, everyone.

Councilmember Backaby.

Thanks, Madam Mayor.

I just want to thank uh Councilmember Humbert and colleagues for authoring this item and also just want to make a distinction that again I think we're most of us are saying the same thing that um the MILS Act piece itself is separate, very separate, distinct from the fact that we value preserving historical landmarks and sites of historic value.

Um, and we want to continue to support that.

It's important to the historical fabric of the city, and as a matter of fact, I think a number of sorts, you know, we're having some conversations about whether or not we want to launch a historic resource survey effort to proactively start that process.

Um that's important to me.

And so my support of the Mills Act item is separate, you know, completely separate from the point that I do think that landmarking is important where where appropriate, and that we should be preserving those resources where appropriate.

It's just the it's an economic question and a budget question in terms of how we finance it.

So I just wanted to thank um Councilmember Humbert for authoring this.

Thank you.

Okay.

Um, I just want to add a couple of things.

Just uh important just to say that this action is important for the health of our budget.

Um, we had some really challenging conversations in some of our previous meetings, um, where I basically said we have to cut everything that isn't absolutely necessary, and that um I'm really concerned about what our budget situation is going to look like in the next year, and one of the things I was really proud about in our last budget was that we were able, we did freeze positions, but we didn't have to have massive layoffs, and I am really concerned about that.

So um I do just want to say that that's why I'm supporting this item, but I also want to appreciate the change in sub two that allowed for the two applicants in in the two applications to progress and um and close the door for new applications.

I think that that was valuable clarification, and I know we had some of the applicants come and speak with us after our last uh um agenda and rules committee meeting, so I appreciate it hearing from you all, and thank you for being here this evening.

Um I think with that, is there a motion?

I have so move.

Okay.

Um, let's take the roll.

Okay, yeah, on the motion to adopt the resolution for the mills uh pausing the Mills Act agreements with the um amendment added regarding the non-renewal proceedings, um, and uh with the changes in supplemental uh communications packet number two uh on the motion, Councilmember Kessarwani.

Yes, Taplin.

Yes, Bartlett, yes, Trega, aye.

O'Keefe.

Yes, Blackaby, yes.

Unapara.

Yes.

Umbert, yes.

And Mayor Ishii.

Yes.

Okay, motion carries.

Very good.

Thank you all very much.

And now I think we need to take a 10 minute break, and we'll be back for the final item.

Thank you all.

Recording in progress.

Hi.

Okay, we're back.

All right.

Thank you all so much.

Appreciate your patience.

We're moving on to item 31, unmanned aerial systems and drones as first responders.

And um I think that we're actually going to pass it over to Councilmember Taplin to introduce the item.

Uh yes, thank you very much, Counter Mayor.

And we have Chief Lewis here and Captain Oakies and Chief Mayors online.

Um I would like to thank my co-sponsors, Vice Mayor Humber, Council Members Customer Wani and Blackabee, the public safety policy committee, uh, the chiefs and Captain Oakies.

Um a number of public agencies are utilizing drones to support disaster and safety operations, including barricade subjects, search and rescue, and vehicle pursuits.

The deployment of such tools amplifies the advocacy of the first response while minimizing risk and exposure to hazards.

This item recommends that the city council refer to the city manager the initiation of the process outlined in the City of Berkeley's freelance technology ordinance to inquire and use UAF systems and drones as first responders, consistent with all auditing and reporting requirements and all transparency, data and privacy protections required for every use every policy in acquisition report under use police policy and acquisition report under the SCO.

By developing these policies and utilizing drones for responders, the city will mitigate the service impacts of our police staffing shortage, supplement our recruitment and retention efforts, and bolster our disaster and safety response by giving responders or tools to survey the locations of critical incidents before deploying personnel.

And in closing, I'll say that it's important to consider what we heard earlier this evening about the need to triage calls for service that don't require certain kinds of response.

Modern tools are valuable for their ability to gather intel on site to ensure that we deploy appropriate response levels before mobilizing personal resources.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

Yeah, I was going to, but it sounds like Council Member Taplin covered it pretty thoroughly.

Um so good good evening.

Uh I I I joke, but uh uh really that we want to go through and share a lot of the information that we've um identified during our initial research uh and talk talk some about some of that.

Obviously, we're here today to to uh look for council's direction on whether or not to enter the STO process, which is a whole process in and of itself to uh write use policies and bring forth acquisition reports to cover um the use of technologies and what technologies we would bring.

Uh tonight we will provide a foundation to explain what these programs are, how they work and how they could benefit Berkeley.

And as uh we've shared privacy with this council, the City Gate assessment report.

Let us know that the staffing shortages that we were experiencing were affecting some of our service levels.

Um they did recommend an additional 15 patrol officers to meet our current service level demands.

Uh along with the rest of the country, um our department is facing severe staffing shortages.

Uh we are currently operating at a 20% vacancy rate for our sworn personnel.

Regardless of these uh constraints on our resources, that hasn't changed the community's expectation and um level of service that they deserve to be both timely, transparent, and accountable across a broad range of calls that we respond to.

We do know that drone technologies offer a way to improve both efficiency and safety without relying solely on having to have additional police personnel.

Across the country, we have seen that both police, fire, and emergency service agencies are using these tools to improve response times, to improve outcomes, reduce risks to both the community and officers, and support more effective and equitable service delivery.

So I'm joined tonight by Captain Oakies, who's going to speak more about the two kinds of drone programs that are identified in Council Barbara Taplin's item, and give you some more background on how those things are used.

Thank you, Chief.

So overview of the drone program.

There are two distinct components under consideration: drones as first responders or DFR, and a traditional unmanned aerial systems or UAS.

Drones as first responders are programs where departments position drones in fixed sites, usually on rooftops, where they can launch autonomously in response to a call for service or a 9-1-1 call when those calls come in.

They typically arrive within two to three minutes of a call for service, often before patrol officers arrive on scene.

Then they live stream video to officers and dispatch, responding officers and dispatch.

This early information helps to determine the safest and most appropriate course of action for officers to take as they're responding, including whether or not an in-person response is needed at all.

Unmanned aerial systems are drones that are operated directly from trained officers in the field.

They are used for a wide range of incidents, including search and rescue, special response team calls, crime scene documentation, traffic collision investigations, and support disasters and hazard responses.

UAS platforms can access areas confined confined areas or dangerous spaces, detect heat signatures, identify chemical hazards, use onboard speakers to communicate with subjects, and deliver small items like cell phones and medical supplies.

There are a number of benefits that drone programs can bring to our community.

First, a faster and more informed response.

Drones can reach locations within minutes as I referenced earlier, provide real-time video to help officers evaluate their situation before arrival.

This is critical in that the more information officers have before they get to a scene, the better they are able to make correct decisions by the time they arrive there.

This improves resource allocation as well and enhances our ability to respond to things like ALPR hits with timely and updated information.

Another benefit is enhanced de-escalation and safety for our community.

Early visual information helps reduce the risk by giving officers a clearer understanding of what it is that they're walking into, whether somebody is armed, whether somebody is in a mental health crisis, and whether a situation can be resolved without any enforcement action.

Another key components is we've talked about before with de-escalation is distance, which allows officers time and the ability to slow a situation down.

This technology gives us that distance to allow us to slow situations down, and uh frequently results in better outcomes.

Another benefit is better use of our limited resources.

DFRs or drones first responders can clear calls without requiring an in-person response at all, uh preserving patrol capacity for innocents that truly need them.

Some agencies have reported in the area of 20% of calls for service being cleared by a drone with first uh as a first responder without requiring a police response.

Finally, another benefit is uh support for emergencies and investigations.

Uh drones have equipment such as thermal imaging that provide search and the support search and rescue efforts.

Aerial perspectives can assist with traffic collisions and crime scene uh assessments.

Uh it can reduce the amount of time that roads are closed and allowing for more precise documentation.

Some specific use scenarios of this technology include area searches for missing persons, tactical situations, including high risk search warrants, hostage and barricaded subject responses, and active shooter response, vehicle pursuits when the um uh drones have the case are within the capability of pursuing and evaluating a vehicle uh and determining where it's going and directing uh other units to respond to it.

And finally, uh counter um counter-drome drone operations as well.

We've seen as recently as last week uh at the turning point event on the UC campus, uh individual actors actually bringing drones into our community and using them without uh you know should oversee events.

Uh so having that counter uh drone capability is an important thing to add as well.

Um I've talked about some general use um uses, but I think it's it's valuable to actually bring that into a specific case study.

So helpful comparison for us is the city of San Mateo.

San Mateo, it's roughly the same size as the city of Berkeley, slightly larger at 12 square miles.

Uh they launched uh a DFR program uh recently and within the first three months.

Their drone is first responder responded to roughly 600 calls for service.

More than 70 of those calls were resolved without requiring a single officer responding to that location.

Response times drop from six to ten minutes down to two to three minutes, and their system is now flying 15 to 20 missions per day.

San Mateo is a good example also because they face similar staffing and growth growth challenges and pressures that Berkeley's currently facing, making their experience particularly relevant to us.

We're seeing this also, this technology being used uh rapidly becoming the standard in the Bay Area and in national policing, locally agencies, including the Alamania County Sheriff's Office, Richmond Police Department, San Francisco Police Department, Fremont, Hayward, Oakland, and San Leandro already operate either DFRs or uh deployed drones uh from their vehicles.

Several other agencies are actively exploring this technology as well.

Nationally, cities including Santa Monica, Portland, Oregon, New York City, and Los Angeles are also leveraging this technology.

Many of these agencies report improved response times, reduce risks to officers, better outcomes for critical incidents, and a strong community support when programs are implemented with transparency and clear policy oversight.

I've talked through some of the benefits that this program brings to the police side of public safety, and I'm now going to hand this off to Deputy Chief May, who will discuss some of the benefits this technology provides to the Berkeley fire can provide to the Berkeley Fire Department.

Chief.

Hi, good evening, council.

Uh I'll start with some of the more maybe the more exciting, more well-known uh uses of drones that are being used across the California and also the United States.

Uh, the first one is the FLUR, which is forward looking infrared camera um ability, which is the ability to detect heat sources.

So this is very useful for fire departments across uh the United States uh when we're looking uh at a burning structure and trying to locate where trapped victims might be, um, or down firefighters, uh, and even hot spots where we cannot see from the ground or um from our position at the unified command post.

Uh, we use this technology through a uh mutual aid partner in November of 2020 with the fire alarm fire that we had on university.

Uh the agency was able to come in, deploy several drones, and because we couldn't enter that multi-um story structure because of it was still in construction.

The drones were able to pick up where those heat senses were where the spot fires were occurring, and help us direct streams into uh that structure to help put out the fire.

Uh, another useful tool that we see uh a possibility is situational awareness.

Um drones can get to a scene a lot faster than our apparatus because they do uh obviously uh line of sight.

Uh this is especially useful for the wildland urban interface areas along the eastern uh uh limits of the city.

Um also once they the drone is able to get to a scene or an incident, it's useful because of the live intel that we can either increase a response, add more units, add more apparatus to an incident, or downgrade a response uh and limit our liability.

Uh, based that that's based on the live intel that we see through the the video feed.

Also during large-scale evacuations, we can quickly confirm what intersections are heavily congested.

Uh, and when resources are available, we can send personnel out to direct traffic and help uh the flow of traffic through those intersections.

And then there's the search and rescue operations, especially because we're right close to the bay.

Um again, the drones can pick up that heat signature of victims that are in the water somewhere.

Uh normally we would have to send out either our uh a boat or jet skies and do grid searching.

The drone is able to do a grid search, but on a much wider pattern and able to pick up heat signatures uh and direct our personnel directly to where that person might be.

Um earthquakes.

Uh obviously, you know Berkeley.

Uh these drones can help support our uh post-earthquake um responses.

Uh right now, typically what would happen during a large uh earthquake is our apparatus would go out and do what we call window surveys, and that's where they have to drive every street, look at every structure, uh talking to citizens and just listening to where the problems are and then reporting that back to the command posts.

Obviously, a drone can do that a lot quicker.

Uh with live footage, and therefore, unified command posts or emergency operations center can send resources directly to where it's needed the most.

Uh, and probably the one of my favorite, which is probably the last on the list, is cost recovery for declared disasters.

Um after a declared disaster, we're able to, with the drone capability, I should say before a declared disaster, map a city's topography to find out where um and how the city looks before a disaster hits, whether that's a wildfire tsunami or even a mudslide, then after a disaster, that drone can get back up and map the city again and provide proof to our government agencies that are going to provide the aid and recovery and um uh verify that the city has had damage.

So cost recovery becomes a lot quicker and uh more efficient.

So those are some of the things that I think the fire department would would be enhanced by having a go on operation or the UAS.

And with that, I'll turn it back over to Chief Lewis.

Thanks, Chief.

Um, you know, it always strikes me when we start to really talk about the different ways we can use these technologies that there'd be so many opportunities for both police fire and some of our intercity departments to use this technology to increase efficiencies and really recognize um the value in these tools.

And so uh as we work to uh answer questions that the council has that the community has on costs and use and and how it impacts us, you know, we'll be looking to um build use report use policies that allow us the space to explore technology and grow into it so we can make best use of of the technology once we if we acquire it.

Um I can share though that very important pieces of a use policy will always include transparency and accountability, and we'll it will be instrumental to us to ensure that those pieces exist in our use policies and are very clearly articulated.

Uh for example, all DFR flights can be recorded and consistent with the way that our department speaks about the transparency about our work, be produced on our dashboard or on um, you know, the uh a product's dashboard to show exactly where we're flying and give real-time information about why we flew and what the outcomes were of that event.

Um also as part of the STO process, uh, we will develop those clearing robust use policies, and those policies will go to the police accountability board, um, will be written in alignment with privacy and fairness issues with uh our city and state laws and requirements and the data security protections that we demand for vendors that come into our city to provide us services.

Um, so with council's direction tonight, um, not only will we continue to do the research that we're engaged in, we would prepare official formal surveillance acquisition reports, but also look to comply, ensure we're complying with the community safety ordinance and AB 481 that uh relate to military equipment ordinance, um, all those three different um ordinances or policies or laws um guide us on the information that has to exist within use policies before we implement this kind of technology.

So there'll be a lot of process discussion um and uh things that are laid out in those policies to really define how we would use these technologies.

Um with the idea that not only that, but um when we come back to council, um with if council directs us to move forward on this, uh my intent is to bring information about the different vendors that are out there providing these technologies and how they would interact and work in tandem with both our LPR technologies and our fixed camera technologies, so that council can guide us um in an informed way, make decisions around how we want these uh technologies to all work in concert with each other.

So uh that's the end of what we um are presented on today.

I know it's a lot of information, and there's still a lot for us to dive into and um and share back with council, but happy to answer any questions that we can at this point.

Thank you, Chief, Captain, Chief.

Um starting off with Council Member Traga, we're gonna start with questions, please.

Uh thank you, Madam Mayor.

Uh thank you, Councilmember Kaplan, for bringing forward this item, and thank you to Chief Captain and Chief, respectively, for um being on.

Um I um I will resort my comments for later, obviously.

Um I um just want to say off the bat, I I appreciate the value proposition for this.

Um and so to me um I have categories of uh buckets of uh items I wanted to um you to speak through.

Um I believe there are five.

Um so first one is security.

How do we ensure um that whatever uh vendors we do business with that the technology is secure, it can't be hijacked by uh someone with nefarious uh purposes, um what is the interplay between national standards like NDAA compliance and uh what Berkeley might um need to uh expect for any vendor around security protocol?

Uh second is privacy.

Um I think I I imagine I will I will um the be the first council member but not the last to ask about this.

Um I wanted to um better understand what kind of privacy protocols other jurisdictions like uh that are using um Toronto technology right now or are authorized for use, such as Richmond, what um they uh employ, and uh what some best practices around this might be.

Um coordination between agencies.

Um I understand that um a city of Berkeley's population size and uh relative geographic compactness.

Um maybe the um optimal use case um could be a single drone, if that is the case.

Um how would um the agencies like BPD and FIRE coordinate um among themselves for usage of the same equipment also?

Um what are the specific use cases?

For example, um I probably would appreciate the use of floor technology when it comes to um rescuing someone from a burning building, but maybe I would not appreciate the same technology if it's just a drone flying overhead, um, such that um folks that are just going about their regular lives in the building that is not burning, um, that they are um not being surveilled or um get a heap signature from the drone.

Um, and then uh transparency and community engagement.

I wanted um, you know, uh obviously that's a priority for me.

How um how will um if we move forward uh tonight with a um this referral uh what will be the process to uh engage the community um and let them know that this is uh I a technology that the city of Berkeley is contemplating uh and lastly um I know we have uh a variety of um policies that I would put in the ethical procurement category um I want to make sure that any equipment we purchase um we don't use vendors and we don't use equipment um that uh may also be sold to rogue actors whether they be um nation states or entities that are up to um nefarious things um so how do we ensure do we need to can we do that within our are the existing policies we have around procurement sufficient or do we need to um actually create a new set of policies and how will it interplay with um the military procurement policy and um the others um that we have so uh those were my five uh general buckets uh and uh thank you so much again and before you answer I just want to say that uh keeping in mind folks that um we're not talking about a specific company yet so when the chief's responding it's really on you know what could potentially happen um just to make sure for the public that it that you all are clear too.

Yeah and and maybe another thing to share too is that um the um questions we get both from the community the questions we get from this council about things that are important help are gonna help us guide us as we go through the STO process.

Like that's what we know like and so my intent is to be able to come back with a probably a long chart right that kind of compares the different vendors and the different ways they hold protections and the different ways they interplay with the other technologies so that we really can put it on the table and and have an informed conversation about which which is best.

Because there are certain vendors that we know only service public safety but the different vendor might have a better data protection um elements right and so as we as we look through all those pieces we can kind of understand um you know what fits best for Berkeley and Berkeley's values.

I can share uh a couple things um the uh the it technology is for the most part the vendors the uh technology exists on the drone and is then um either a a thumb card or downloadable when it when it lands it downloads into our evidence system or it's held locally and preserved if it's evidence um in that manner.

So the controls are tighter like some of them uh maybe uh cloud-based but a lot of them work in that manner so it's much more secure right we have control of that uh one of the vendors that that's out there is actually the same vendor that does our evidence system you know evidence.com system so um you know those are some of the considerations about the ways that it's holding we we absolutely know that both how data is collected where it's held um who has access and who has keys to it are of utmost concern to this council um I've been paying attention to to the questions and we know that those things will be important to bring back when we have our acquisition report um as far as um the number of of uh DFRs you might need versus a city in the size of Berkeley and things like that and how many we would need um again uh there's best practices uh and there's way different ways that cities have rolled this out uh a lot of cities have just started with one and then expanded out once they started to see how uses were some of the uh vendors have products where uh they are can be interchanged uh a lot of them can only run for 45 minutes at a time and so having some redundancy built into your system whether it's to go to a fire call or to a police call or to stay on a protracted police call for a long period of time having more than one of the system can be important.

And so uh the same way that we dispatch uh personnel uh for public safety needs, both our fire department and our police department, we set priorities based on the type of call uh life safety is always our our primary concern.

So if we were mapping the city for uh potential future cost recovery that's lower down than hey, we've got a fire in the hill that we want to get a journal up to right now to um see how large that fire is, right?

And so um that's uh it's all dispatched from our calls for service, and our calls for service are already built with those priority codes in them.

Is it in progress?

Uh you know, is there life safety issues, you know, things like that.

What would help guide how we would use it?

Um my goal would be that uh um whenever we had a tool that worked well for other departments or um for the fire department versus police department, we would be sharing that technology in a way that makes sense for our city on behalf of our city.

Um community engagement.

Obviously, it's important for us to hear via the council what the community is saying.

We also have um been contacted by members of the community.

Um and um we've we've already started talking about how can we do like an information like similar to this where we provide the community information about what the different technologies are when we say DFR, what does that really mean?

Here's some videos of what it looks like.

Um, thinking about ways to do like some kind of community forum to share that and hear back from the community about their specific interests.

Um and then uh the last piece about making sure the equipment we use and the vendors that we use don't do business with with people that we don't want them to do business with.

Uh, that's absolutely again something that we would um want to raise forth as we look at the acquisition report and kind of tell you what we've discovered around vendors.

And I I think you maybe spoke around this, but can you speak to um between BPD, BFD, um, if hypothetically there was another agency that presented a use case for a drone, how would that be worked out at the interagency level?

I I can just say that you know, we have our primary mission is to make sure people are safe.

And uh I, you know, that's the balance that we're gonna be doing.

And if the fire department has a competing need for safety, we're gonna we're gonna respect that.

And that's you know, the way we dispatch is uh police and fire from our comm center, so that could be done in in in one venue.

Thank you, Councilmember Taplin.

Uh, thank you very much, and thank you, Chief Lewis and Captain O'Keefe and Chief May, um, for your close partnership with my office, the other offices, and also for making ourselves so available to counsel for our questions.

Um, I have two I have 2.5 questions uh in an anal transparency.

Um on the PD side, um, when you're piloting a drone, when would you start collecting uh visual information?

Would you be collecting from the moment the flight begins or when the drone arrives on scene?

So there's a couple different ways these um technology works.

Some the cameras are oriented skyward on their flight, some they're they're oriented, you know, in a regular manner, but are completely off.

Um but filming and collection of data doesn't happen on the way to a call, it doesn't activate until you get to the scene.

As a follow-up, if a drone is deployed to respond to something happening in one building, is there any utility in collecting data from an adjacent building?

No, it would be limited we would be looking at the event, the incident.

You know, obviously, if we were there was concerns that was there, it was an active shooter call and you thought there we might be a suspect in another building, you might do a pan um around there.

But the idea is that it's it's for it's it's it's providing us intelligence about the incident where the incident is occurring, and that's what our focus is gonna be on.

Thank you so much.

And on the fire side, um uh you mentioned that these can be used to carry and transport objects.

I'm wondering, uh Chief May, and you mentioned um you gave an example of responding to uh uh a call for service involving a building under construction, but I'm wondering if whether um a mid rise or a high rise building, if there were a fire that broke out in one of the units, could a drone be used to dispatch um uh flame combating material, like through a window, perhaps.

Yeah, I think uh some of the demonstrations that we have uh seen so far.

There is a weight limit for what the drones can carry.

I do not I have not yet witnessed uh flame retardant.

Uh more so on the medical side, such as Narcan or an AED of lightweight.

Um, but I have not yet seen one that has a demonstration for any type of fire retardant.

I I will say that um the technologies that they do have allow them to break windows, and you know, I don't want to speak for the fire department.

That's, you know, uh Chief May's area of expertise, but sometimes communication with someone who is in a building that's on fire and letting them know stay where you are, or you know, do some other you know, that that line of communication, and that's one of the things that the drone provides is the ability to speak to um that resident and so uh while they may not be able to put fire retardant in that area they may be able to give specific instructions like you know come out and go to go to the right or go to the left or you know wait to come out a few more minutes where we're gonna make the area safe things like that could make a a real difference in a response.

And uh and follow-up to that could could could one be used to I think you spoke to this in the in the in the example regarding the building under construction but I'm wondering if if we have a a Nazi fire in a building could a drone be used to guide um responders in a route while they're inside the building.

Yes to answer the question we didn't use it on the one on university that was more for um uh water streams but should a drone be deployed and be able to tell exactly where a victim is yes that information could be relayed to the uh search and rescue crew that's inside looking for victims.

Thank you very much.

Those are my questions.

Thank you Councilmember Backaby.

Thanks Madam Mayor and thank you uh Councilmember Taplin for authoring this item and uh inviting me to co-sponsor it um and thank you to Chief Lewis and Kapanokis and Chief May for being here.

I just had a few questions um you know we've talked a little bit about some of the the privacy concerns and again I also realize all these questions are premature because this is all stuff that you're gonna work out in the policy but just some initial thinking as we go.

Do you have any early thoughts on maybe a few of those sort of privacy limitations and safeguards you might put in place.

I know Councilmember Taplin just asked a few questions about whether you're viewing neighboring buildings but are there some other kind of no-brainers already could just that you've already thought about that would likely be part of this from a privacy perspective.

Yeah I think it'll be interesting to explore you know um if we uh DFR goes to a scene and it's a non police call you know do we want to retain you know retain or not retain for as long that you know the the the video is collected uh you know things like that questions that we'll get into um very strict guidelines on you know um uh uh where where the operator looks you know directing them specific language like the council member brought up about like to the incident you know maybe may only be used to observe related to the incident um the other thing that um I do know is that this has uh application across a lot of different types of calls and so um I want to define use policies that are really clear about what we expect around how they use it but I I'm also cautious to not um over limit us unintentionally so that we don't can't use maximum you know ability of this of this technology like you might say well they only use this for the most serious cases well but the way you use it as to to address staffing shortages is you send it to things like vehicle in a roadway and is that vehicle even still there anymore can you not send an officer and things like that.

So there's there's um you know uh we're uh we think about it in two ways one is do you define the ways things something can be used or are you just very clear about the ways it will not be used right and so then you don't create some limits that that um you know unintentionally stop you from making good use of a tool without going through a whole process to be able to add that back in and then build it a frequent like look back because it's like hey let's look after X months and see how we're doing and then we can make adjustments okay thank you.

You've talked a little bit about the DFR versus UAS you talk is that that's a different technology for each can you just talk a little bit about how maybe Capanoke's like what are the different technologies for each sure generally the technologies are very similar.

It's uh the main differences are the size.

So a DFR tends to be uh respond uh and be out for longer periods of time that requires a a bigger platform because batteries are are what carry most of the weight and also the DFRs are usually set up on rooftops and automated versus the UAS, which is a much smaller drone, usually in the trunk of a car, back of a vehicle that's deployed out there in the field by an officer that just takes it, sets it up, takes a few minutes to set it up, and then deploys it straight to the location that they're that they're dealing with.

So very, very similar um slightly different use cases and and really it's about scale.

Okay.

Um, again, the the part both departments would sort of jointly use the technology, you'd kind of work all that out.

Do you have any kind of rough um uh estimates on given a city of our geographic size and population size, like how many how many units are appropriate?

Like maybe where would we start, and maybe what could you envision how many of these units would we have at any kind of point in time?

Yeah, so um a couple different vendors that we've talked to says you could get it done with one GFR to start.

Um again, there's the limitations around how long it can fly for.

Um, some of the vendors the product um can be uh landed and a battery swapped out, right?

So you can have one unit and multiple, you know, you just buy more batteries, and so then you don't have that same issue.

Um the scale up is easier than right than spending a bunch of money and having to scale down.

Uh, once you get once you kind of understand the use of the technology, I think if we want to get to the point where we're maximizing how many calls we can clear, um, knowing that uh a city like San Mateo is using 15 to 20 times in a day, that tells me that they're probably at the capacity of one, yeah, you know, and are very close to probably needing two.

Um so uh we probably wonder why look at the pricing and and what you know, whether there's a deal for a longer limit longer contract or buying multiple at one time.

Um, and then I will say that for the UAS, these the smaller handheld devices typically you want to see a handful of those, right?

Because they they can be used, um, they can be out of the city for um a special response team operation at the same time.

You've got you know smaller calls that they're responding to, so you'd want to have more of those um to have in that those are much more affordable for affordable product.

There is a licensing and and training component for people to be able to fly them uh so that there's those costs that we'd have to build in as we're as we're looking at all these pieces.

Another component to that is the technology.

Uh there's some companies out there that their model is to have multiple uh drones as first responders set up, and so when one runs out of battery, the other one goes out.

Another technology has a larger battery and a different model.

So some of it's gonna really depend on what what the technology is that we're looking at and what makes the most sense for the city.

If we're ever in the position where we're at one and a half or two and a half capacities, the kind of thing where would we be able to partner with a neighboring jurisdiction, like hey, Albany kick in for I mean, is that appropriate, or would you rather this just be deployed vertically specific?

That's interesting question.

Um, and you know, the military equipment ordinance actually says that that jurisdiction has to have um uh use policy in place before that technology could be used in their city.

Um so we would have to make sure that we weren't loaning it out to someone who wasn't um authorized at the time to use it.

Again, you know, our our priorities are gonna always be life safety first.

For you know, the perfect example is the um uh uh homicide event that we had at uh Toyota Albany, right?

We it we we aren't so worried about a jurisdictional border when someone's life isn't is in danger and fire, we know there's implications of um cloud coming over the hills, and the last thing we'd want to do is like start say, well, our drones can only fly in this in this area, and these drones have the capability of flying well beyond our borders if needed.

Yeah, great.

Um Capno's you uh I love the data about the percentage of cases, it sound like upwards of 20% or 30% in some jurisdictions, or maybe San Mateo 10%, where um calls for service can be responded to with just the drone clear them without an officer responding.

Um I'm also wondering if uh so that's appealing.

Is there also a case where maybe you'd have calls for service or maybe you'd have two officers that would normally respond, you could do it with one.

So it's or things like that.

So it's not just driving it to zero, but even things where you'd have multiple units could be reduced.

Yeah, absolutely.

So there was uh one of the examples that one of the companies uses is a uh response to a call of a man with a gun, and uh the drone goes over there and determines it's a cigarette lighter, somebody that's in a little bit of distress, but no big deal, they reduce their response significantly, and the officers knew what they were getting into.

Obviously, they're gonna respond very differently to a call of a man with a gun than somebody who's you know acting erratically and has a cigarette lighter, so lower response and a more appropriate response.

And if I could just add a small thing to that, too.

Uh, one of the uh best uses that we've heard about has to do with vehicle pursuits.

And if you and not so that's not only a uh personnel power thing, but it's also a safety thing.

And so we're typically if you had a vehicle pursuit, you might have three units in the pursuit plus follow-on supervisors involved in that right pursuit.

Instead, you can use DFR technology to safely follow a car, wait until it parks somewhere, and then and then um deal with the suspects in that manner.

It's much safer for everyone and significantly reduces the number of personnel you need.

So you don't even have to just deploy it to a physical location.

You could say literally follow that car kind of a situation.

Okay.

Um couple other quick things that'll be done.

Um Chief May, on the fire side, um, you know, I've definitely got some kind of residents in D6 who've been are interested in the idea of drones for wildfire safety prevention detection.

Um is there a scenario where on those like extreme weather days, you might just have a drone or multiple drones up uh kind of around the clock for some period of time.

Is that something you didn't envision doing?

Is that a possibility to detect and scan?

Yeah, I think I'd have to look at uh what detection equipment is available for drone.

Uh, I know our units right now go out and do weather samplings, we do spot forecasting with NOAA or the weather to the weather center.

Uh it's very possible to look and see what type of detection they can do with um and I I see Chief Sprague is on or was on here uh some of the work that uh Moraga Rinder was doing with some of their uh sensors, but that's something that's a very good idea and something we can look into.

Chief, were you gonna jump in?

Yeah, council member.

The other thing I'd chime in on is um so far we understand the significant barriers to that specific use are that oftentimes on those high weather days, there are winds that may uh prohibit the um use of drones.

And additionally, we have issues with um uh airspace and the East Bay Regional Parks helicopter.

Um, so we'd also have to explore that conflict, but it's definitely a potential.

Okay, cool.

Um and I thought given the evacuation study, I think Chief May you already mentioned this too, but just the ability to like we know that in a fire, getting people out of the hills and relieving those choke points is gonna be extremely important.

So the opportunity to like fly a drone and say, hey, avoid the circle, go this way or go that way would be enormously valuable in moving people around.

So I think that that's also a really interesting use case.

Uh last question for the team is um so if we do proceed forward tonight, what what would you anticipate is the rough timeline?

How long would this process potentially take to go from here to policy and potentially acquisition deployment?

Well, I think um uh we know there's some primary players in the field as far as vendors, um, and we've done some of the initial research to identify who those vendors are.

Um we're starting to build out our list of all the questions we're gonna ask and information that we want to bring back.

Uh anticipate um with that, plus um knowing that whatever use policies we develop, we're gonna want to include having had a conversation or at least giving some input from our community, and it goes to PAB for at least a 30-day review of um our our use policies and acquisition reports and knowing that council is about to enter into recess.

I think reasonably in the early part of February, we could be bringing something back for council to consider.

Good.

So, okay, great.

Thank you.

Thanks very much.

Thank you.

Uh Councilmember O'Keefe.

Thank you.

I have seven point zero questions.

Okay, get ready.

Um, first question is uh these drones can be equipped with microphones.

Is that correct?

Um, can you let us uh walk us through some of the scenarios where you would imagine using the microphone?

Yeah, of course.

Um so uh there's uh a ton of medical reasons why, um, including um uh delivery of Narcan and instructions how to do it, delivery of an AED, um, you know, the example I gave about uh telling somebody don't evacuate yet, the fire departments clearing the fire, stay where you are.

Um being able to fly in a specific area where a missing person was last seen and putting out announcements, uh being able to do evacuation notices.

A lot of times now we have to use either the LRAD or PAs and are doing are and go to areas and evacuate.

Great example would be the tsunami when we were trying to evacuate.

We had a very short period of time to evacuate a lot of people and get uh personnel coordinated.

We could have sent the drone to the farthest end of the marina and just started working way back there and been there within, you know, uh probably 45 seconds from the station, uh, direct line of f of a flight and started doing that.

Um there's things as simple as uh, hey, we see the gun in your hand, please put it down and come out and you know, very clear instructions on how to uh de-escalate in that um or to even start negotiations.

Some drones are capable of carrying a cell phone, dropping cell phone so we can start communications that way.

And so it's like, hey, we've just dropped a phone, pick it up and please talk to us and things like that.

Yeah.

Thanks.

By the way, is my how does it work?

Does my time go only when I'm talking or when the questions are happening?

Okay, it didn't stop.

Okay.

I just want to make sure.

Usually I don't have so many questions, but I want to make sure I get to ask them all.

So thank you.

Um, my next question is um, I think Council Member Trago already um referenced this, but if you answered it, I didn't quite catch it.

I'm I'm concerned about um being able to like this this heat signature thing seems cool.

It'd be great in search and rescue, but can they also just see where a person is in their home, like if they're sitting on the toilet or if they're in bed?

Like, can is that something that they're also able to see?

I would think so, but I want uh give you a chance to clarify.

Yeah, it's typically what you see.

I mean, you could see them in a seated position.

I don't I don't think you could tell exactly what they were seated on.

Um, but yeah, okay, thank you.

Um, next question.

Um, you know, you mentioned the San Mateo example a few times, and I'm wondering, you know, it seems compelling, but also fairly anecdotal.

And I'm wondering if you there is actually any data that shows that outcomes are better with drones.

Yeah, I know um I've I've seen uh a number of different presentations that I've attended where they're reporting uh the vendors are reporting, which of course has to be verified, but are reporting that their customers are experiencing.

I've seen as high as 25 and 30% of their calls are being cleared by DFR.

Um, so one of the metrics you're looking at is how fast they can get there, so that's how good is your response time, whether or not you sent sent officers or not, uh whether there's safer outcomes or not, that's a little harder to judge, right?

Or to to attribute one way or the other to whether or not the dr with the drone observed for the drones, so you primarily see the data around that, like how fast they can get there and how they resolve calls.

Thanks.

Yeah, I think it's hard to study, but it sounds like it hasn't actually been studied yet.

So I hope I hope somebody does that study.

It would be interesting.

Um next question.

Um, also regarding the San Mateo example, um, was any data collected there about how people felt about having like a drone come and maybe probably not know why, because the cop never came?

How did people feel?

So uh don't have specific data for for that.

Uh I do know that um in the presentation that that I saw, the um city manager was the biggest proponent of that program based on both the efficiencies that it created and the quality of service that they were getting uh to the community, and so I I don't have specifics to how people felt.

Um I do think that on those cases where we, you know, in where you're going to send a drone out and they determine, hey, no police response is needed.

Sometimes you know, we get calls frequently of like a a 9-1-1, what we call a 9-1-1 ascertain, where somebody calls and we try calling them back on their cell phone, they don't answer.

We send an officer to go look and try to find someone, nobody's there.

Uh something like that would be uh a really good use case for for a drone.

Similarly, uh we get a call of a of a um alarm system that's going off, uh, going and evaluating us, hey, are there any signs of a break in something like that might be another use case where you don't have that human contact, but there wasn't really an expectation of one.

Uh, okay, but I'm sure sometimes there was a person who experienced the drone, and sounds like the answer is no, and that's fine.

I just wanted to find out about that.

Do you have something to add?

No.

Okay, thank you.

Next question.

Um, next question's for Chief May or or Chief Sprague.

Um, this idea that the drones can carry something.

I there's actually a cool um idea that I heard.

I'm wondering if you could comment on.

Can they carry a flotation device to somebody who's like in the bay drowning?

Is that possible?

Uh that is possible, yes.

Uh, because the flotation device that we saw in the presentation was light enough.

And the flotation device could activate when hitting the water.

So yes, it could.

That's cool.

Um, okay, last question.

Look at me getting through.

One use case I don't think was mentioned or hasn't been discussed at least, is if a drone could be useful for um surveilling uh like a large public event.

Like, would that be a would there be a safety benefit if there was, let's say, the Solano Stroll if there was a police drone kind of just just going up and down checking things out?

Is that a use you you would have?

Yeah, so Albany has used the drones before for the Salama Stroll specifically to do, let's say, a flyover.

Um a lot of use policies require for an event like that there to be a crime that occurs first before the drone will go up and start flying.

Uh I think it's an interesting balance, right?

Like, do we do we want an event where a visible drone is flying overhead while people are enjoying an event, um, versus we want to be able to address issues and get ahead of something before it becomes an issue.

And again, that that's the balance that we have to strike about a use policy.

Um I think I lean more towards that.

I'd like people to be able to enjoy this space and not feel like there's somebody over them all the time.

Um, and so how do we make sure we're in the right place?

We're close enough to be available and useful if needed, but but um we're not we're not living in a community where there's somebody always, you know, right above you watching you.

Okay, actually that was my seven, but I have a follow-up.

Um I guess what I'm what I'm getting at, and I think I'll ask a little more um specifically.

I'm wondering if that's something that the Berkeley police would be interested in.

And I'm asking because if so, I will in my comments I'd like to put um suggest some guidelines.

But if it's not something you're interested in, if you think it probably wouldn't want to do it, then maybe it's not worth it.

Are you too much on the spot?

You can say, you know, I'm just no, I think what I would say is I think what I would say is um if it's a use you would like us to explore, um, then provide us what would be in good information to gather or understand about it.

Like we can research what other jurisdictions are doing, um, what you know, is anybody doing this?

How are they doing this?

What are the best practices and come back to this council with a kit with a consideration for it in our use policy?

If after we go and see that, I still think it's a good law enforcement use, um, then I could put it in there.

Um, so I like I said, it's so early in the process.

I don't want to start uh crossing things off without you know, I've my our values are good privacy, good accountability, good transparency, public safety.

That's where we're gonna try to land all our prohibited uses, you know, to prevent.

Um, but I I don't wanna be I'm wary of uh defining too many things without having done all the research.

Fair enough.

Um and I just realized I missed one of my questions and I have time.

So um, you know, uh drones, my understanding is drones are already allowed under our current use policy.

We just borrow them from other jurisdictions.

Is that right?

That's correct, the UAS.

Yeah, okay, right.

Um, can you um we have used them a few times?

Can you talk about that's how how those have been used in in the past?

Yeah, so um uh we talk in depth in our surveillance uh technology report that we turned in.

Um so if people want to really dive into what those use cases are, uh most often they're used for um our search warrant operations, so our special response team doing a search warrant, um, is able to clear a residence uh and uh safely do that um without having to send people in to do that first, which deconflicts potential violence.

Uh we've also used it um for calls uh like uh someone's asleep at a wheel and somebody thought they saw a weapon in the passenger seat or on the whatever.

You we've we've sent a drone up to look in there and observe, and like uh in one case it was yeah, there is there's this or that, it changed our response.

In another case, it was like no that you know that the person that's not what you thought you saw in there.

So so there's those kinds of uses to date that we've used.

Um a lot of agencies are moving towards starting to charge when you borrow that technology.

Um, and we also know that um uh um we're still exploring the technology, so we haven't really even experienced all the ways that we could use it as a as an agency if we had that technology in our city.

Approximately how many times have you used it in the last I guess since it's been allowed?

Five years or so.

Uh don't know that I have the five-year data.

I think last year was six or seven uses.

That's good.

I just wanted to get a sense, yeah.

Thank you.

Those are all my questions.

I appreciate it.

Thank you.

And I I just want to say if you have thoughts of, you know, for feedback, Councilmember O'Keefe, you should just give them during your comments.

I think that's fine.

Like regardless of how they're.

Yeah.

Um, okay, so uh council member Bartlett.

Thank you, Madam Mayor.

And uh and thank you, team, for coming out and um presenting this.

And you know, I know Councilman Kesserwani had volunteered to answer all my questions, but I'm just, you know, thank you for filling in.

Uh so one question, uh this this is on my mind.

Uh, you rem the the auto m the the auto dealer that we had the incident in Albany last year, right?

Um in your opinion in your experience can these drones uh enter and navigate confined spaces.

Yeah, what are the primary uses of our special response team when they do use these uh this equipment from other agencies is to go into confined spaces and vision use the cameras on the drone to clear them out and to ensure that nobody is in there before officers go in there to check it.

So that reduces the likelihood of a potential conflict uh and likelihood of violence uh so it's it's actually a better outcome for everyone involved a safer outcome and uh one of the primary uses uh that that we uh we currently use this technology for okay that was very risky moment um thank you for doing it um the and so and what what have you seen in sort of the chain of command like who's in charge of issuing the call for the drone and calling it back so for the uh DFR technology um you set parameters on what kinds of calls it gets deployed to so you would get an alert saying this is a possible DFR call and your drone operator that would be monitoring that would say yes or no that it's gonna go to that call.

It can then be redeployed on the way to a different call for service based on like if a if uh if it's on its way to something that's a priority two or priority three call and a priority one call comes up or a fire priority one call comes up you can divert it to that call by that drone operator um and then um you know in the same manner that uh if they're the deployment in the field so the op it's not just anybody gets to drive a drone that that because we have drones you you go through a specific training program and certification program to be able to use it um and so you're gonna get deployed to a certain call where it's um indicated that it's needed uh our scene supervisors so our sergeants and our watch commanders would be the ones kind of calling the play if they're like you know what go to this call instead or do something like that that's typically how we manage uh specific resources in that manner.

Um and uh have you seen um any evidence of their redaction protocols like blurring of faces that kind of thing so for instance in a in an instance where the the you know the the camera's being used you scan a bunch of people you get the one you want uh are the non you know the non-assailant people or the people who don't need to be soaked up are they are their faces blurred later private parts things like that.

Yeah so you well so we probably I've not seen any technology that can blur in live time right so as you're recording and I would I'd be hesitant to do that because you if you're still trying to develop what's happening on a scene you wouldn't want to miss evidence because you've blurred but absolutely before we release um as long as we're not running up against implications with PRA rules when we release footage and things like that we're at we're always looking to redact data privacy or you know things that might embarrass somebody from from a from a video.

And then uh have we considered the use of um other city departments besides for uh law enforcement and emergency response like for instance I could imagine uh those people that have to go look at the tops of trees would appreciate this.

Question for the city manager.

We have we have discussed potentially things like that like uh assessing trees assessing building and safety um code violations those kinds of things okay thank you prevent injury you know um and I and I are we are you seeing the use of uh any um artificial intelligence analytics or autonomous response at all so the DFR technology allows it it used to be that you had to have line of sight and there was an operator that actually flew this so the new technology that's in the DFRs allows it to fly autonomously to the call uh based on the coordinates of the of the uh location it's going to okay and then I guess uh my last question is uh regarding um the interactivity have you have you have you noted any interactivity with private drone operators um because believe it or not I heard about the then emergent um, you know, neighborhood watch drones, even.

Yeah, as uh Cap Milky shared earlier, we were aware of at least two drones that were flying during the event uh on campus last week.

Uh there are uh companies that are coming out with technologies to um interrupt um those drones that are in the air and we understand that um someone in the same way we're trying to use this tool to make things safer and more efficient.

There may be individuals that use these tools to to do damage or spy on people or do things that that are against our values.

Okay, so would that would that be something we would consider for our deployment?

This sort of defensive um defensive uh tooling.

Yeah, it's absolutely something we can look into.

Okay, all right, thank you.

Thank you, Councilmember Bartlett.

I'm moving on to Council Member Lunopara.

Thank you.

I have a couple questions.

Um I'm curious if you're looking at Flock as a potential vendor.

So Flock doesn't produce a DFR or UAS drone, they do partner with um, I'm gonna get this wrong.

There is one of the drone companies, erodone, um, that they partner with that that's that um uh connects well with their system, uh, but they're not a drone manufacturer.

Um, okay, so are are you I guess looking at the Flock adjacent system as a Yeah, so there's only a couple um DFR companies in the market.

So that is one of the ones that we would would probably look at and see how they compare to the other ones and and obviously bring that forward um along with uh some of the other larger vendors that are in the market for that.

Okay, thank you.

Um I'm also curious.

I know that that there's still a lot of analysis to be done about this, but I'm curious just generally if you know how much one of these drones costs.

Um I understand that we don't have the specific numbers, but just a range.

Yeah, so the um UAS uh can be in the area of uh five to nine to fourteen thousand and or upwards, depending on uh how big the model is and what the capabilities are, their flight time, how quiet they are, how long the batteries are, things like that.

Um the uh DFR systems, um there's the station where it docks and lands and charges um and uh then there's also the drone itself and the spare batteries and things like that and the platforms.

Um we've seen uh um prices range from 60 to 90,000 to uh 125, 150.

I mean, it really depends on how long of a contract you get into, um, how many stations you're gonna have and things like that, and whether you buy in um multiple of one, um there's some some vendors that uh you can buy a replacement plan so as part of your yearly cost, um you pay a little bit more, but at year X, Y, or Z, you get a brand new upgraded model.

Um, you know, there's all this there's a lot of different ways that uh vendors do this work.

Um there's also a lot of vendors that will um step into a one-year free trial period with you for these technologies and things like that.

Um, and so um the work on us is to kind of try to co-like um bring all that information together into one place and and try to hit the like how the data is held, what the costs are, you know, how long the contract periods would be, um, you know, uh is it a lease or a purchase program?

What is the replacement plan, you know, and really try to bring all of that forward so you can see everything together and make an informed decision about whether you want us to move forward and with what?

Thank you.

Um, and then my last question is um kind of following up on some of Councilmember O'Keefe's questions around San Mateo and some of the other case studies that you're looking into, and if you have any information about the what those jurisdictions have done to balance effectiveness with community concerns around surveillance and safety and privacy.

Yeah, I can just say that the better job the community the agency does with checking with the community first, with building use policies that are clear that are public, with having a transparency portal that provides the information that the community needs and doing a good job once we start using a technology, talking about it through our platforms and providing data and information about it, the better it seems to have landed in jurisdictions.

Um I have not heard of a specific jurisdiction that launched DFR, and that there was then an outcry about the use of DFR.

That doesn't mean that that's not the case.

This that like my initial research has not uncovered that.

Um most places where it's in place, there's been a market improvement in actually the delivery of service, and people like that.

Thank you.

Those are my questions.

Thank you.

Do any of the other council members have questions?

Okay, I just have a couple left because I we already asked you a million questions.

So I I know you mentioned that some cities are starting to charge for use of the drones.

Um I'm curious.

Well, have we had to pay so far?

No, we've been fortunate so far that the we haven't had to utilize.

So if you if you imagine if that other jurisdiction that has a UAS program is busy with theirs, then we would and we called for it, it'd be a no.

We've been fortunate that we've been able to call another jurisdiction or call the jurisdictions that aren't currently charging, so that we you know we've avoided that today.

But if I had to choose between the risking an officer's safety or paying for a drone, I'm I'm gonna, you know, I'm gonna be asking to pay for the drone.

So we're trying to get we're trying to get ahead of it as everybody's facing these budget constraints and the staffing constraints, they're like gonna be less available to come to us and help us.

Uh-huh.

That thank you, that's helpful.

And then um the other piece of using other jurisdictions, drones.

Uh I'm curious if we've ever had an access issue where we we weren't able to get access to a drone when we needed access.

So generally uh uh agencies are are trying, you know, willing to help when they can.

We have had a couple of incidents where we've had significant delays uh in cases where in one case where we uh were serving a high risk warrant in other city and uh suspect we believe to be armed fled into a house and we had a significant delay, and that time increases risk uh in that the longer we had to wait, it was about an hour and a half, two hour wait uh for the drone to arrive.

Um, then created additional risk for the community for officers on scene uh and for the safe resolution of that incident.

Thank you, that's very helpful.

I appreciate it.

Um, and then just for the city manager, I know you mentioned just a couple of instances that other departments might use the drones, um, but could you elaborate?

Are there any other instances what that um drone usage was discussed, and if you can also share under what conditions?

Yeah, I have actually have it uh mayor discuss with the other departments what use cases there might be, but you know, I could the ones that I mentioned and the ones that I think council member Bartlett was alluding to are certain circumstances where there might be uh worker safety or worker ease of access um considerations to think through and whether a drone could go up there and put a visual um you know have a visibility into issues that we would somebody would have to like climb the outside of a building or climb up a tree or you know, do things that would be challenging for staff to do.

Thank you.

That's helpful.

Okay, uh back to Councilmember Rockabee or one very last thing.

Um on the deployment of the drone.

Were you thinking um would this be sworn personnel, non-sworn, sworn personnel, dispatcher?

How would that work on that piece?

Thank you.

So far from the general conversations I've had, it seems like most agencies are using sworn personnel because they have to assess what they're observing.

Um I have heard of community service officers, um, analysts in real-time crime centers.

Uh, you know, I think Dave Sprague and I were talking a little bit about like he was you know trying to assess whether he would want to have someone that had some fire training to be able to look and see what they're observing.

Um so that's one of the things we'd we would be working out at as we as we step into this process.

You know, another interesting way we could use some of this technology is if we have a UAS deployed for a fire call, and um there could be a fire personnel standing next to our drone operator, right, to look at the screen because they're just reading the screen and what the screen's telling them that might be able to help us bridge that gap right until we figured out exactly what we needed.

Thank you.

Council Member Tracob, did you have an additional question?

Yeah, actually, that prompted uh question I had around certification.

Um, could you speak to what uh like um I understand that FAA certification may be required for certain types of drones?

Can you speak to would it be on a per use basis?

Uh like or annually.

What's the resertification period?

Uh, what's the cost of that?

Um, also if there are any operator uh specific certifications that may be needed to operate certain categories of 12.

Yeah, there are some specific operator um requirements that you have to do.

A lot of the vendors for the DFRs build in the costs for all the certification processes in the price tag they give you.

Um and they are you know have uh worked through those processes and commit to you know not letting go of the process and absorbing a lot of the training requirements that are part of the uh that uh we are aware and have started to kind of capture the different um licensing requirements that individual operators would have to uh be under and what kind of schedule that would be on so that we're clear what our ongoing training costs would be, you know, to support this program.

Okay, thank you.

Any other questions?

Okay, is there public comment on this item?

Are there folks online too?

Just we've got someone making their way up, but I'm curious to know.

If you're participating remotely and you'd like to give public comment on item 31 regarding unmanned aerial systems and drones, uh please raise your hand on the Zoom application.

Okay.

So uh it seems like we spent years debating cameras when people were are on camera all the time, like dozens of times during a day.

And so, as has been said, drones are now common and are becoming more common than they were at the turning point.

So uh drones like camera, uh cameras have their purposes, such as it has been stated in the disaster situations, de-escalation, crisis and hostage situations, uh, and uh understanding scorpion out of sea.

So one question I'm thinking is the depersonalization.

I understand about sending a drone into a crisis situation or hostage situation.

I'm wondering if these drones have cameras on it so that you can see the person that you're communicating with because there's something eerie about the fact that you're negotiating with a robot instead of a human being.

Um, of course, I'm concerned about the tracking, but it was stated that would start only at the site so other unintended people wouldn't be picked up.

I'm concerned that we protect people who are not related to the situation, and so if you're looking using a drone to uh find a suspect that's fleeing, how do you not get other people involved?

How are other people not surveilled?

And who can access this information?

I mean, the last remaining privacy that we have is in our homes, maybe, and so can you stand on your patios and your porches or your uh can you keep your windows open, or are you in danger of being surveilled as this drone is looking for somebody?

Uh so these are the concerns I have, and also who is going to be able to access the footage.

Thanks, Carol.

Let's go to the folks online.

Okay, the first commenter for item 31 is uh phone number ending in 211.

Hi, good evening.

I think a great idea, great idea.

Our good company East TV called two mergers, one in Telegraph and one in Durant Avenue.

And actually, both people prosecuted.

It also kept hundreds of people in the area safe.

Because we've got 24-hour cameras at telegraph, uh, and and durant and one in telegraph and bleak.

And criminals don't want to uh to be seen.

So we never had robbery in our whole 50 years worth of uh business.

That's a good idea.

Meanwhile, I'm sorry about harsh comment early, but we need to go forward.

We need to get easy back in a physical location.

We're doing business, we'll never go out of business.

But I appreciate your help and have very good evening.

Take care, have a good night.

Thank you.

Okay.

Next speaker is Cheryl Davila, former council member.

Yeah, so I don't think that this is a great idea for one.

If you're gonna use Flock, Flock is notorious for um and in the news currently, because they cooperate with ICE.

And you won't own the data.

Um so that's a problem.

And why do we need if you only have six uses in 365 days of the year?

Why do you even need it?

Um, that's not really worth the money, it seems.

Um, so I don't think that's a great idea.

And um free Palestine and don't this is like just what um, I don't want to say that man's name, whoan uh backwards, but or mixed up, which he is, or it's not real, does they surveil people and they use drones to kill people, and um it yeah, like why are you taking on the same tactics?

Not a good idea.

We're we're Berkeley citizens, residents, we're not enemy combatants.

You don't need drones, free Palestine and free yourselves from the police industrial complex.

Thank you.

That's it.

Okay.

Uh comments from our council members.

Uh starting with Councilmember Taplin.

Uh yes, thank you very much, and thanks all my colleagues.

Um I am very committed to the advocacy and efficiency of the city services and programs.

So I would definitely want to see how our policies and the technologies um both inform one another and evolve over time so that we can ensure that we're using all of our tools in an optimal way to the best of our abilities to increase our delivery of services and improve all of our operations.

Um I I know that I know we're so in the beginning of the process, but um just for my part, I'm I'm way more interested in the kind of targeted scenarios where these would be very helpful, um, more so than you know, using these two surveil large crowd events, unless there was some sort of you know critical incident that need to be addressed.

Um, I just don't know if that's a very uh effective use of the resource.

So just fly them around during you know, the song stroll.

Um I'm uh I really appreciate the discussion tonight and I want to thank uh both departments for being here to walk us through some of the potential uses and also share what they've learned um through the through their interaction with other agencies.

Um with that I move adoption of the item second.

Second.

Okay, um council member Bakabe.

Thanks, Madam Mayor, and again thank you to Council Member Taplin for authoring this.

Thank you for our public safety team for being here and for um their support and their work on this, and um as we embark on the process, because this is just the kind of beginning of of if we pass this item, the beginning of what's gonna unfold here.

I'll note that under um BMC 2.99.

If we refer this to the city manager, um, under that uh under that legislation, uh we're called upon to establish a thoughtful process regarding the procurement and use of surveillance technology that carefully balances the city's interests in protecting public safety with its interests in protecting the privacy and civil rights of its community members.

So again, this process is designed to try and strike that balance and to begin a public process where we all can talk and explore some of these limitations.

Like Councilmember Taplin um just identified council member O'Keefe.

It also highlighted it.

Things, you know, there might be things that are very community-specific where we have concerns and we need to figure all that out, and I look forward to kicking this process off to do it.

Um it is a proactive process.

Um, again, in the item from Council Member Taplin, we want to establish a thoughtful community-informed framework so that we ensure that any future deployment of drones, whether by the police department, fire department, or other city divisions, aligns with Berkeley's values of racial justice, civil liberties, environmental responsibility.

So I think again, I'm I'm encouraged um by what we heard tonight.

Um I know the chief and her team and the fire department take that responsibility seriously and take that balance seriously.

Um, and that's gonna be important as we move forward.

So thank you again, um, Councilmember Taplin for bringing this, and I look forward to supporting the item tonight.

Councilmember O'Keefe is next to the line.

Thanks.

Um, just a procedural question first.

Um, so I'm happy to support the item.

Um my understanding is you know, this is a for all to the city manager, so I have things I would like to be addressed in whatever comes back, and I if I just kind of say them, and then hopefully they'll everyone will hear them.

Is that is that that appropriate?

Okay, great.

I'll support the item as long as I these things are taken seriously.

Um, so I'm gonna start with uh the positive things I love about this, and I really hope we can um make a good solid use policy that uh allows this.

Uh search and rescue, it's great, great use.

Um, I really like the saving or drowning person scenario.

I that's why I specifically asked about it.

My husband is actually a kite surfer, I worry a lot.

He's a great swimmer, but you never know.

And so I think having that um that's a really powerful thing, and I actually think we should consider this is too detailed for right now, but I think we should consider having a a drone dedicated drone just at the marina for that for that.

I think that would be worth you know the cost of a second one because then you know it wouldn't take two minutes to get there, which could make a difference.

So I love that.

Um vehicle pursuits makes a lot of sense.

That's a clear safety win.

Um, large events, I brought that up earlier.

I'm not necessarily in favor of that, but I think it would be good to um explore that.

And the reason I'm I want to talk about it is it seems like it could be useful um to improve security at a big event, but I think we have to be really careful about uh the line between like the salon stroll and a protest.

And I don't think that line is always super clear, and I really um I don't think we should allow drones at a protest.

I think they would have um potentially have a like a chilling effect on people's ability to exercise their freedom of speech, and that that was a that was for the lawyers on the on the council.

Um then I that's a real concern.

So if we did use them for like crowd control or crowd safety, we want to be really careful to um make sure we're not including protests.

I think we should not not allow them for any kind of free speech activity, um, unless there was a really big safety risk.

Anyway, I want that in there addressed.

Um, and then uh the anti-drone action makes a lot of sense.

I think that's the only that's the only tool we have, and that's a new kind of threat.

Great.

Um, then that makes a lot of sense.

So that should be used for that.

So those are my yes to yes to drums comments.

Um, I have concerns.

Um, first one is uh the microphone, which I brought up.

I I think we really need to be really thoughtful about this.

Um some of the use cases that were described made a lot of sense.

Hostage negotiation, you gotta communicate.

That's that's clearly a win.

Um a medical call in order to communicate back and forth with somebody while help is on the way.

Um other uses, um, mentioned like aiding and evacuation and all that seemed fine, although I think that's more of the speaker.

So speakers fine.

I don't have a problem with the speaker as long as it's not annoying.

But those those cases all seemed fine, but exactly.

Yeah, don't yeah, be careful.

Um, so yeah, I I can't think of that many other uses where the microphone would be um I think justified.

Um we're we don't live in a world right now where there's a lot of law enforcement audio surveillance, or there's none as far as I know, except maybe I guess the body cameras pick up audio, but um uh I mean like Alexa and Siri are audio surveillance, but that law enforcement is a totally different thing.

So I think we need to be very careful.

Video surveillance is normalized, but audio surveillance is not, and I want to be really, really thoughtful about how and when we allow that.

Um similarly, I'm concerned about the um the the heat signature thing.

I think you know, I don't really want a drone to be able to see me in my house unless my house is on fire, in which case it's fine.

So I think we need to be really careful about when that particular um technology is allowed.

Just only when it's clearly um in the best interest of of the person it's looking looking for um and then you know speaking of being normalized I just want to say in general I I don't believe we should be using these for routine police calls.

I do understand the argument that it saves police time and has a potential to deescalate a situation by getting information before the officer arrives.

That makes a lot of sense and I think that has value.

But the other side of that is it it creates a new and extremely unsettling experience for people who um have the police called on them for you know for no good reason.

And nobody likes this but I know that this is um a great source of pain and anxiety especially for people of color and you know nobody likes it but the question I have and this is actually a question because I have not personally experienced this but the the question I have is is it is it actually better to have a drone come check you out and here's my thinking oh shit really you you can have can I have one more minute I'll I'll say it quick thanks counselor I never I never go ahead okay thank you thank you thank you I'll be quick though um I just I I'm concerned that we're trading one bad experience for another um I think the you know our police are very well trained and they don't come with their guns out for no reason as far as I know and so typically I'm imagining if the police get a bogus call and the person's obviously not doing anything it's the interaction is going to be very human.

And so it sucks but at least it's a human and a human and replacing that with a um Carol used the word um what is she uh depersonalization which I thought that was a really good word and I I think to depersonalize that interaction actually makes it worse and I hate the idea of a person just minding their own business and then this police drone is just staring at them and they they don't get to like have a conversation about it because the microphone's off and um I just I'm concerned about that and I think these are really great for some specific cases but I personally don't want them to be used for routine calls even though I get that it would it would be have a lot of benefits.

Those are my comments thank you for let me going over.

Thank you Councilmember Traika.

I'm I'm glad I gave council member one of my minutes because she said a lot of the things I well I just wanted to echo um in general want to associate myself with those comments uh those um her concerns are some of my concerns and vice versa the the use cases that um she supports um I I support as well um wanted to just start out again the the five um buckets I listed that that is my North Star for um once something comes back how I'm going to be evaluating this again that security privacy coordination between the various departments um transparency and community engagement and then making sure that we do not procure technology that um uh is being built by a vendor that may um be also selling that technology or allows the technology to end up in the wrong hands um and uh with the drones themselves that is easier to track than parts so I I am uh I I know this is easier said than done but I feel very strongly about um this piece um look the technology is here we have a variety of uh neighboring jurisdictions where they're currently in use um and I understand that maybe this is an item that um some did not expect to come to us um this quickly, but I I feel like we do need to um um uh look into it um head on.

Um we don't I I would hate for us to be the last jurisdiction to adopt it when ever when the the chapter has already been written um uh because I think we can really shape um whatever policy we adopt to be uh the guiding um North Star.

Um and I would uh suggest um I like my feeling is um in terms of the range of options that come back to us, I would support making them as broad as possible, not necessarily because I would feel comfortable supporting the full range of options, but just so that we have a better understanding of the trade-offs up front.

Um, and uh that includes if the forestry department uh wants to use it for tree trimming um and whatever else, let's put it in there because I think it will be important the more uh departments want these, the more um effort it will probably take to resolve potential conflicts uh and just work out an inter-jurisdictional interdepartmental policy, and I'd rather have that up front than um you know have to make changes later.

Um I think I think those are all my comments, and I will be supporting the um the referral tonight and again my gratitude to Councilmember Taplin and everyone who has um shaped this to what it is right now.

Thank you, Councilmember Bartlett.

Thank you, and um, I guess just to run through a couple of just thoughts I had.

Um I definitely um think there's a good use case here for environmental market environmental monitoring around around fire.

Um the uh you know uh a safer form of pursuit.

Uh we've had those incidents, incidents where you know people get hurt uh from these high-speed chases.

Uh so this is a really interesting way to maybe alleviate that risk uh while achieving the outcome as well.

Um let's see, the um uh the response times, of course, being great, uh greatly reduced in time.

Uh the the issues we want to keep in mind, and I think a lot of this is probably covered by our existing policies that we uh painstakingly went through um those years ago uh with Council Mr.

Chaplin around the privacy and all those elements.

Um the uh so the data management is gonna is gonna be important to get right.

Um, you know how to who retains it, who controls it, um, the chain of custody, uh so we can actually you know make sure that we are able to achieve our our goals uh prosecutorially wise, um and uh an acute deployment as opposed to sort of continuous passive surveillance.

I don't think anyone here wants a just a roving eye overhead.

Um, and uh equity of coverage came up in my research uh as a criticism, make sure that we're getting deployed uh fairly everywhere.

Um, and of course, um, you know, a good indemnification policy uh for city attorney probably get in there uh work out because things hit power lines and they can cause some damage.

So we want to make sure that we're not on the hook uh for this stuff.

Um those are all my points, really honestly.

I think um I think we've done a lot of thinking around similar technologies, so we're kind of braced for this.

Um but uh but to keep the the policy open to the evolutions of the technology because this is really just we're just one step um up from the radio shack quad copters, right?

And step by step, we see if you watch the activity in Ukraine, you see the evolution of drones happening every month, and so um we have to be ready to just you know the brace ourselves and handle whatever comes our way.

Um thank you.

Thank you, Councilmember Kessarani.

Uh thank you very much, Madam Mayor.

I want to begin by thanking Councilmember Taplin for bringing this item forward.

And I'm uh very pleased to be a co-sponsor.

Uh thank you, Chief Lewis and Captain Oakies for the presentation.

And uh I just want to note that um some members of the council had an opportunity to receive a presentation and see a demonstration of one of these drones that we may be acquiring, you know, assuming this item passes tonight.

And I think that as Captain Oakies, as you as you noted, there's tremendous potential here, given our staffing shortage that we face to be able to leverage the drone and keep our officers safe, you know, in instances where we don't fully know the circumstances around a call.

I didn't think of this question until now.

I know this is technically not the question time, but um chief, when you said that we had used a drone six times last year.

If we were to acquire a drone, um I'm expecting that that number would increase, correct?

And in terms of use cases, and I want to thank my colleagues because there has been um so much thoughtful questioning about um, you know, securing uh the privacy of members of the public and how we would use the drones and and uh so I I just want to clarify you know, once we develop, do would you expect with this use policy that we would have some framework around um instances in which we would be using the drone?

Because I it seems like there's some concern that this would, you know, maybe just drastically replace the human response.

And so I wanted to get your sense of how you think the use policy might cover that.

Yeah, I think um the way that it's has one piece of value is you never have to send uh a uniform response.

You can send a mental health crisis worker or something else instead, like that's one use where you'd send a different individual rather than a police officer.

Um, and then there's other instances where it's just providing you information so that you can come in as in a safer way or uh reduce risk until you can be there and resolve.

So you are engaged in a connected way.

Um there are probably plenty of circumstances where the DFR is going to provide us information, and the person on the ground that we then interact with, it never even knows that that's there, and that was part of the the process, right?

Um, we're just able to respond in a safer way because we have information by being able to observe as we approach, okay.

Okay, great.

And and I think um, and no one has suggested this, but I I just want to say, you know, this is not a customer service chat bot.

You know, this is a very sophisticated technology, uh, that um that is going to provide, you know, actionable intelligence that can help us deploy our costly and um hard to hire and hard to retain officers as um smartly as possible in in dangerous circumstances.

So, you know, I'm really excited about the potential for this.

And Captain Oakies, you talked about you use the stat 20 percent.

Um can you just clarify I I think you were talking about a 20% reduction in instances when you would need to send an officer out.

Is that correct?

Uh it is, and again, those are the use cases where uh we get a call for service that just either proves not so, calls for service that don't require a police officer to respond.

Uh so it's not that the drone serves as a replacement for a human being, it's more along the lines of it's separating out a call for service that requires a police response from one that doesn't.

Okay, because we get a lot of I'm I'm you know, I expect that we get a lot of calls for you know suspicious activity, right?

Where it's not really clear um if this is actually a danger, and and so being able to um send this uh technology in lieu of of the individual or of the of the human response, um that that's what we're talking about potentially.

And and and i really i i wanted to underscore, I think something that uh I I found very interesting in the demonstration that I was able to attend and what you said tonight is this this ability to use the thermal imaging for search and rescue efforts.

I mean, this is just like the the ability here, it it the a human being just cannot do what what what the technology is able to do um in terms of being able to detect oh that that that a certain individual was on this block within a certain period of time because of that thermal imaging so I wanted to note that as well um so having sort of talked about a lot of these benefits to uh preserving staff resources when they are truly needed uh to giving us tools to I think fight crime more efficiently and effectively I I do want to acknowledge what I heard from my colleagues around some of the um data and operational concerns uh that I expect we will resolve when we work on the use policy so it and I just want to note some of the the points that were made something about you know consideration of when the microphone is used um consideration of who is operating the the drone and and you know another sort of question or thought I have is it seems like our dispatch the people who answer the calls are also going to probably require some kind of training because I imagine this is gonna flow through our entire emergency response system.

I don't know if you have thoughts on that.

Like you know we'll will dispatch need to make those determinations of oh is a drone more appropriate than you know an officer or that's not the traditional model the traditional model is you have somebody who is trained or has the experience to be actually operating it whether dispatchers are gathering information andor dispatching uh actual police units someone else is someone else is navigating as a drone operator is is watching um and seeing observing and saying hey you can clear that call you don't need an officer or uh routes uh units responding you know uh come in in this direction there's like a lot of navig uh pieces that you would require some level of expertise to be able to do that outside the traditional realm of our dispatch responsibilities okay and we know that we are uh busy supporting and building up our dispatch center so we're not trying to add an incredible burden like that into their work.

Got it so that would so that responsibility silver reside with the police department or the fire department okay that's helpful to know and then I also just wanted to note the the sort of issue of the of a protest or a crowd control situation that also seems like something that can be addressed through a use through our use policy.

Yeah that that's correct there there's obviously considerations um you know uh absolutely it's invaluable and important to make sure that what we're doing with a drone is not chilling people's ability to have free speech it's also really important to me that make to make sure that the venue in which someone is exercising their right to free speech is safe.

And so a perfect example is last week you know if we had a drone team up we could have potentially identified somebody that was causing harm come and remove them from that area so that the event can go on peacefully right so there are there are spaces and times and ways.

That's why what I shared about this Little Stroll is like a lot of the the use policies say um the drone doesn't go up and start flying unless uh a felony occurs or there's some crime of you know there's some crime of violence or something and then they'll go up with a distinct purpose to go and address that right and be focused on that not uh flying over the whole browser surveying everybody that's there right and and catching everybody that's coming in.

Okay so great.

So I I just want to underscore that like our our intention here is not to just have general surveillance when there's a large group of people but um to use it strategically when we know that there could be a threat to public safety.

Okay well that's all I have and I I look forward to uh voting on the motion uh which is a referral.

Thank you very much.

Thank you Councilmember Humbert.

Yes thank you madam mayor and uh thank you council member taplin for bringing this forward and the work that you and your office have done on it.

And thank you to Chief Lewis and May and Captain Oakies for your presentation uh here tonight and all the questions that you've answered um the good answers that you've given to very good questions.

I I and I'm privileged to be a co-sponsor and thank uh council member Taplin for asking me to to be a co-sponsor.

What I I was got to attend the one of the demonstrations.

And what I found really compelling was um the you know the story that um I think Captain Oakies mentioned, where uh somebody reported a man with a gun.

Um the department dispatched a drone and saw that this idiot was lighting his cigarette with a gun lighter.

Um so the police did show up, and we saw the docudrama version of it, and then we saw the real kind of raw footage.

Um, the police did show up, but they didn't show up with guns drawn because they knew that he wasn't truly in possession of a gun.

And I think they went and talked to him and said that that was a really dumb thing for him to do.

That was the sense I got from watching the the the raw video.

Um so I found that really compelling.

I also, at this demonstration at this demo, um, heard from the presenter there that you know the drones can get to uh a crime scene so quickly, and in one instance, the drone got there so quickly, it could take a thermal image of the shell casings that were still hot after being ejected from a gun used in the crime.

And I think that's amazing the speed at which these um devices can get to uh to a critical situation.

Um they don't have to stop for stop signs, they don't have to turn corners, they go straight from, you know, they go as the crow flies, and and that is a real advantage.

Um I understand that people have concerns about privacy and civil liberties, especially in this this current political climate.

Um, and I'm honestly very hard pressed to see how BPD having access though to these particular tools represents uh an appreciable threat in that respect.

If for any reason these tools are being abused, it's gonna be as this is a panzerism, as plain as a drone in the sky, and the police accountability board and the city council will be able to review such instances.

And on the positive side, the technology has extraordinary implications for our ability to safely respond to dangerous situations, monitor natural disasters, safely monitor fleeing vehicles.

I find that really, really important, and even perform search and rescue operations and detect people where the naked eye, you know, wouldn't be able to do so.

Somebody who's lost in the woods who might be under a you know a bush or something, somebody couldn't see him, but the drone could detect a thermal image.

I think that's really important.

Um private citizens, I think it bears noting that private citizens already operate drones within Berkeley for any number of reasons.

I don't think it makes sense that we would prohibit them for this application, which is very useful and not frivolous, where we actually have a great degree of oversight.

We don't have that for private use.

So thank you.

I'm gonna be supporting this.

Thank you so much for your presentations.

Um I really appreciate you all taking the time to go over it and and share all the information with us.

I also went to one of the drone presentations, so I've got a good chance to ask my questions and to understand, you know, how how this could potentially be used.

Um I think that we're in an interesting time where I expect that this will be a pretty standard piece of police equipment.

Um, like right now, I know it's not necessarily there, but I expect that this will be the norm.

Um, and so what is really important to me is that we're really clear about how we want to use it, and I really appreciate Chief what you were talking about when it comes to um, you know, making sure it aligns with Berkeley's values.

And um, I also want to acknowledge that there are many folks, especially in this city who feel really uncomfortable, although we haven't seen much public comment tonight, which was a little surprising to me, um, that there are many people who are uncomfortable with surveillance and have expressed that to us uh a number of times in different ways in different meetings.

Um so I do just want to comment on that, even though those voices aren't really in the room tonight.

Um it's really important to me that we're engaging the community while we're developing this policy.

I really like your idea, Chief, about having uh some kind of public presentation.

Um I think that we've had some really challenging meetings recently, partially because I think we could have done more public outreach.

And so, you know, I really want to make sure that we're really being doing very robust outreach there.

And and of course, I'm sure my council member colleagues and I would be really happy to help get the word out about any events that you are interested in having on this.

Um, yeah, and so, and of course, I know that part of this uh surveillance technology ordinance includes community engagement, and so just generally when this when the plan is complete for that, um, we'd really love to to give input, and we want to make sure that there's community input, especially from communities of color and unrepresented communities, communities who who have typically not had good experiences with the police department, of course, including the LGBTQ community.

Um, I this hasn't come up at all, and I know this is not something you were talking about necessarily, but I want to make sure it's really clear that I'm strongly opposed to weapons being on drones used here in the city of Berkeley.

No one's brought that up yet, surprisingly, but I think when most folks think about drones, they're thinking about weapons of war, and so I know there are police departments that that are having um weapons on their drones, so I want to make sure it's clear that I'm opposed to that.

Um I also want to encourage the you know, as you are doing research, Chief City Attorney, City Manager, that we're looking at how we ensure privacy rights, first and fourth amendment, um, you know, looking at first and fourth amendment issues, and um want to comment on training being very important in this.

Um I I hear you, Chief, what you're saying about this likely being a sworn officer.

Um I feel like that sort of like undercuts our our opinions on like how this might save us money or staff time.

So I just want to look into that a little bit more because um I think training is really important, and I also like the idea if it's possible not to be a sworn officer, um let's see, and then when you're doing your research of drones and policies with other jurisdictions, I'd really like you to look at other departments um to see if they've received any citizen complaints to council member O'Keefe's uh concern around people feeling uncomfortable with that or having issues with the drones.

Um and yes, if yes, if there have been citizen complaints, how many, what types of complaints, um, any trend in demographics um of these complaints, and then um also would like to know if there are any lawsuits in other cities that have deployed drones, of course, lawsuits about drones, and um how they were resolved.

So that's kind of just like a handful of things, but just hopefully really practical, tangible things for you all to look at as you're as you're moving forward in your research.

Um, and yeah, again, just want to thank everyone for your questions and for your your thoughtful remarks, and thank you all so much for your work and and also um to Chief May.

Thank you for being online.

Um I know you're getting left out of some of this conversation, but I appreciate you being here and going over how you think the fire department would use it as well.

So that's it for me.

And I know we have a motion on the floor, so I would like to take the roll, please.

Thank you.

Okay, the motion to approve the recommendation uh item 31.

Councilmember Kisserwani.

Yes, Taplin.

Yes, Bartlett, yes, I.

O'Keefe.

Yes, Blackaby.

Yes, Lunapara, Humbert, yes, and Mary Ishii.

Yes.

Okay, motion carries.

All right, thank you all very much.

Um, just my laptop, but we have also um the um for oh, yes, yes, for any other public comment for items not listed on the agenda.

Anyone online?

Uh well, there's one hand raised online phone number ending in zero zero zero.

In the memory, the great police chief Josh Buckler.

It was great.

It shifted me.

Shift my life actually, and my family live.

Because we had embedded in some store management and really good prayer for him.

It was a great man.

Have a good night.

And great.

Let's do the best we can to mix city.

They're good to be twelve in the past.

Have a good night.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks for your comment.

Um, okay, any other public comments?

Nope.

That's it.

Nope, that's it.

Okay, very good.

I will entertain a motion to adjourn.

So moved.

Second.

Okay, is there any opposition to adjournment?

Oh, oh, I'm sorry.

Uh well, we're actually adjourning our meeting right now.

So our meeting is adjourned.

Thank you all.

I'm sorry.

Is this the what?

Oh, he missed the opportunity for public comment.

Yes, I'm so sorry.

Um, yeah, you you missed the opportunity.