I will call to order the public safety committee meeting.

I'm Rachel Leon, chairwoman of the public safety committee.

The committee members are Brian Callahan and Grace Crampsy Smith.

The clerk will call the roll.

Ms.

Leon present.

Mr.

Callahan and Ms.

Brampsy Smith.

Present.

We have no other council members present tonight this afternoon.

YouTube stream reminder if you start the stream after 2 p.m., please make sure to scroll ahead.

All the way ahead.

So the YouTube stream is current rather than a recording of an earlier portion of the meeting.

There is one agenda item tonight involving the fire department.

Fire department staffing study.

David.

That's you, sir.

Yep, you're first.

Hello, my name's Dave Roof, uh, 1625 Maple Street.

I'm a retired firefighter.

Uh I retired in 2011.

Yeah.

I was hired in 1976.

So I'm I would like to give you a historical overlay of the Bethle Fire Department within the city of Bethlehem, if that's all right.

Uh when I got on the job, we had 116 firefighters, 26 per shift.

I believe the police department was at 127, and there was no paramedic service.

Uh Bob Tinsman and uh was very instrumental on getting an EMS service, uh, put in the city of Bethlehem, and uh later was supported by uh then councilman Paul Caleb, Otto Ursham, and I believe uh Donald Chase.

As now you know, you probably wouldn't even consider not having a paramedic service in the city of Bethlehem.

When I got on, there was none.

Uh so shortly thereafter, I would say not quite eight years after police department went up to I think it was 132 patrolmen, and then down the road they went up to 154.

Uh again, the EMS service went from what we used to call snatch and grab to EMT service to paramedic service, all within I would say 15 years.

Uh that's 1976.

50 years.

50 years down the road, you know.

Uh EMS service and police department have gained personnel.

The fire department is still actually they're below what they were in 1976.

The city of Bethlehem has grown in leaps and bounds.

Uh we didn't have to respond less than extreme emergency to what was then the Bethlehem Steel Complex, which was I don't know how many acres that is, but it's a bunch.

Uh now it's you have all kinds of entities operating out of what was the Bethlehem Steel property.

You have hotels, you have businesses.

Uh we never had any of that back in 1976.

Um, expanded, the hospitals have expanded.

We've had uh countless number of uh apartment complexes, all adding to uh the population of the city of Bethlehem.

I believe when I got win in 1976, I think there was 72,000.

They counted in in the city.

Uh that did not count all the Lehigh or Moravian students or occupants that were in the hospitals at that time.

So to give you just a little perspective on it.

Uh uh 1977, we had the West Cape Mall fire.

Uh, I could still remember the headlines in one of the uh major fire journals.

Largest mall fire in the city of the city of Bethlehem fought with the least number of firefighters, and that's always been the case.

I don't understand why.

50 years later, I'm up here again.

I guess I should say I was I was uh I went through the ranks all the way up to deputy commissioner and then back to assist in chief.

I was a union president for two terms.

I've been on his podium at least four times in my career asking for manpower.

So I guess we have to ask ourselves why fire department has a hundred and you no longer have 116 guys.

You have less than what you had 50 years ago, and the city's grown by leaps and bounds.

I do not understand it.

And if people were made aware of the actual numbers, I don't know if they would be as uh complacent as they are.

My job as assistant chief was to send firefighters in the in the building, knowing fair full well that we didn't meet NFPA standards.

We didn't two man in, two-man backup.

Uh we didn't we didn't do that.

I can remember uh I was on engine six by myself.

I put a whole whole structure fire out by myself.

You know, it's just crazy.

I see my time's up, so I'll have to say thank you and hopefully to shed some light on where we're at uh then and now.

Thank you.

Thank you, David.

Uh the next person I have signed up is Kyle Dalton.

Good afternoon, everybody.

Uh my name is Kyle Dalton.

I'm an Allentown resident, but I'm a Bethlehem firefighter and the treasurer of the uh Bethlehem Firefighters Association.

It's my first time at the podium and speaking to you guys, so I just wanted to introduce myself and uh share a brief story that would hopefully shine some light on the mentality that I and the people behind me share.

Um, the decisions that we make from the the moment we walk into the firehouse in the morning, all the way up to the decisions we make here on the plaza, uh, make the difference between life and death for the people in this community.

Um life and death can be measured in seconds in a fire, right?

So the the thing that kills people in fires is the products of combustion.

So smoke, toxic gas, things of that nature.

Um, and a mentor I had in another agency shared a story with me that he called six seconds.

And I'll spare you the story, but basically, you can boil the difference between life and death down for people in this community in one breath.

Takes about six seconds.

So from the time we walk into the firehouse in the morning to the way we tie our shoes, the way we put our gear on the truck, to uh you know, the minutes that you'll see here um in our response times, they all make a difference.

The decisions that we make in the firehouse and on the plaza make the difference between life and death for people.

Um, so when I'm in the firehouse, I always ask myself, does the decision I'm making put seconds back on their clock or take them away?

And I hope that you can ask yourselves the same question here as you go through this data.

Um, and anybody at home that's watching, I think everybody here um that's ever ridden a fire truck in the past, present, or future would push a wheelbarrow to your home to save you if it made the difference.

But uh, you know, we're here because we want to do the right thing, we're passionate about our mission, and uh hopefully moving forward, we can use this as a guide to build this fire department over the next few decades.

That's all I got.

Thank you.

Thank you, Kyle.

So that's all I have signed up, but I'm gonna open up the floor.

Does anyone in the general center wish to speak?

Anyone to the right?

Okay.

All right, for this meeting, we only have one item, and it is going to be the fire department staffing study.

Um, I will say this is a little bit atypical of a meeting.

Um, so for context, it is the middle of the afternoon.

Um, but as we had spoken about, President Jimenez, um, this is information that you would like to present to council.

Um, we're heading into budget season.

I don't want to wait a whole year and see this in in January.

So um, thank you to Councilwoman Crancy Smith for your flexibility.

Um, so we're very excited to hear uh what you have to say.

Um, given the time crunch that I put, there is no one from the administration here to speak, but they have sent some memos um that will be read into the record uh at this time, and then we will open up the floor to your presentation and some QA from council members.

So, Tad, if you can read the memos.

An October 29th, 2025 memorandum from Eric Evans Business Administrator, Chief Griffin, Deputy Bear and I are unable to attend the meeting called for today at 2 p.m.

We are not sure when the meeting was planned between the IAFF and the public safety committee, but we only found out about it yesterday.

Mayor's budget address is tomorrow morning, so I am preparing for that presentation.

Fire Chief Griffin and Deputy Chief Bear are unable to attend as they are interviewing applicants for the next fire academy class to begin in January, as we have mentioned previously at council.

Also previously mentioned at Council, City of Bethlehem is conducting an objective comprehensive fire and EMS apparatus protection and efficiency study.

Study has been planned and discussed with fire administration and the IAFF since early 2025.

The RFP was drafted in the summer and issued seven weeks ago on September 9th.

Responses are due this Friday at 12 p.m.

From the point we will review the submissions with the plan to bring the decision and funding memo to council in December and initiate the study in early 2026.

This will be the first study on the topic since 1995.

With regards to the 2026 budget, consistent with what we have said publicly at council meetings.

We have worked hard to find the necessary new revenue to propose sending 15 additional cadets to the fire academy in 2026 at a cost of 300,000.

We sent 15 in 2024 and 12 in 2025.

Fire department's 15 million dollar 2026 proposed budget includes a 3% salary increase, not including overtime as part of the collective bargained agreement.

We also are proposing purchase of two new fire apparatuses in our 2026 capital budget at a cost of 3.8 million dollars.

When these two new apparatuses are purchased, we will have replaced seven of our eight apparatuses since 2020 since 2020 at a cost of 8.6 million dollars.

For reference, we have attached a chart of our 2019 front line as compared to our 2026 purchased front line.

Additional details on the fire department budget, including four ambulances, a new fire command vehicle, new fire inspector vehicle, and new SCBA filling station will be shared with the release of the proposed budget tomorrow.

As always, please feel free to reach out with any questions that you may have.

It is an informative meeting only, which is why we were able to schedule it uh so quickly.

Um, and the administration has expressed their uh their irritation at me for not giving enough time.

And um, that is that is my fault.

I should have given enough time, but again, I wanted to hear this information and the committee can make it happen.

So we're we're moving on.

Um but now I'll recognize you, uh, President Jimenez.

Um, if you can go ahead and go through your your slide and then uh councilman Cassie Smith and I will have some some questions from there.

Thank you.

Uh like everybody said I'm uh President Lou Jimenez, uh local 735 president, also a lieutenant in the fire department, and I'm a district service rep for the Pennsylvania Professional Firefighters Association.

I want to thank everybody for being here today.

Everybody on YouTube Live for checking in.

Um, but today is is an important day.

Um, I'd like to thank the fire administration and the mayor's office for helping us get the data for this study.

And I'd like to thank them for the relationships that we've built over the last two years.

With that being said, I'd like to address something that was stated in the memo.

As we go about talking about the future in the fire department, we we tend to want to always highlight the apparatus or things that are already in our bargaining agreement.

Now, this fire department is built on people, on our brothers and sisters.

So the most important part in the fire department is the firefighter.

We can have all the equipment we want, but without the right amount of firefighters, it does us no good.

With that, I'm ready to do my presentation.

Okay, this is the staffing and response study of the Bethlehem Fire Department.

This was done with in coordination with the IAF GIS department, local 735, and with the data provided by the city of Bethlehem.

The purpose of the study is objective and it's data-driven.

Um it gives the assessment of deployment, staffing and response.

And then there's benchmarks against the NFPA 17 standards, the benchmarks for them will be talked about later, and is also to align resources with the community risks and the incident demand.

The outputs are coverage, arrival, performance, and staffing requirements.

The current staffing snapshot.

Typically, we have two firefighters and one officer on our fire engines.

Currently, we have two firefighters on our ladder trucks, and we have two fire engines that only run with two firefighters, which is below the NFPA 1710 minimum.

We have four stations.

And they cover our ever growing city.

It's full of new residents.

The problem that we're having is a high overlap between our first two districts during peak demand.

And I'll simplify that for you.

Whereas the engine company in their particular district is responding to a call, they'll get another call in the district, which will bring another engine from across the city into that district, leaving the other fire district uncovered.

So that's something that we need to talk about as well.

Here are the benchmarks.

Minimum cruise size for NFPA 17 standard is four on the engine and ladder companies.

The first arriving unit, once a 911 call is made, four minutes at 90% reliability.

That means the first engine that gets on scene needs to get there in four minutes or less, 90% of the time.

That isn't being met either.

We do not hit any of these benchmarks, and that's alarming.

Our call volume trends.

Our units responded steadily.

Uh it steadily increased.

We have 9,000 plus unit response, unit responses.

The unit responses are the individual apparatus that respond.

In 2024, we had over 4,700 calls for service.

EMS calls and overlap in incidents drive our workload.

And uh sustained upward trend widens the demand capacity gap, which basically means we need more people.

Travel time performance.

Like I said, some engines are out of district and they have to respond from across the city.

And seconds matter for life, just like Treasurer Dalton said, six seconds, it's a breath.

They matter for fire growth, cardiac arrests, and other different types of rescues.

Risk assessment.

We have a lot of seniors, disabled people in poverty.

Those are all factors that factor into this particular type of situation.

If you look in the most northern part of the city, or we have our most elderly people and uh disabled people, the industrial corridors and dense neighborhoods elevate hazards.

If you look on the in uh on our city's south side, down pass how town row, we have a lot of major industry there and warehouses, which are huge in excess of million square feet.

Yet we do not have an engine that could get there in four minutes.

Incident distribution by company.

Engines carry the majority of the responses, and ladder and utility units remain active.

Engine six and nine are among the busiest companies citywide for fire engines, but actually, engine six is the busiest, ladder two is the second busiest apparatus, and utility one is the third busiest apparatus in the city.

Utility one is drove by one company officer and covers two districts in the city.

The Northwest, which is engine nine, and engine six, which covers center city.

That's a big district and a lot of responsibility to be driving yourself and covering two districts.

The overlap in the backfill indicates system strain during peak periods.

We get busy, we're all over the place.

We don't we're not in our respective districts most of the time.

We need to improve this.

No matter where the fire station is located, when the alarm sounds, firefighters rush to answer the call.

They know that every second counts for keeping the fire from spreading, minimizing property loss, and most of all, saving lives.

But while the dedication of firefighters across the country may be the same, the size of the crews they dispatch to a fire may vary significantly from station to station.

Some with just two firefighters per engine, others with as many as five.

So, how effective are different sized crews at combating residential fires?

To address that critical question and others, a landmark study was conducted by a consortium of fire researchers led by the National Institute of Standards and Technology.

This is the first time in a national study that we've been able to isolate the effects of crew size, in this case, two persons, three persons, four persons, and five persons on an engine.

Also look at the effects of engine arrival time, the spacing between the uh subsequent engines, and the different fire growth rates.

Using a two-story test house built near the NIST campus in Maryland, the researchers studied different sized crews of firefighters in action against residential fires.

Crews of two, three, four, and five firefighters were timed performing each of 22 standard tasks for responding to a fire.

The results, four and five-person crews completed all of the firefighting and rescue tasks, on average 25 to 30% faster than two and three-person crews, respectively.

This finding could help communities better determine the number of fire stations and firefighters they should have at the ready.

Currently, the way uh deployment decisions are made is that the uh fire chiefs and the um personnel uh the city county managers or the mayor, uh the people who have the resources um at the local level, um, get together and look at matching the resources that they have to the risks that they have.

There is no technical basis for understanding if you make a change to your deployment, you add or subtract people, um, you open or close additional stations.

There's no uh validated data to support um understanding what the effects of those decisions are.

Thanks to the efforts of the NIST-led firefighter consortium.

The data are now in hand and ready to make a difference.

Okay, reduced cruise sizes, uh, delays fire attack, search and rescue operations, and like like was said, four and five-person crews can perform it 30 percent faster and more efficient.

Fewer hands increase the risk to firefighters and to the public.

Adequate staffing improves task concurrency and scene safety.

The more people we have on hand, the better we are to combat the emergency.

All right, we're gonna talk about two in two out coverage.

This is the two into out rule that was brought up earlier in public comment.

An interior attack uh requires four or more personnel on scene before entry.

The current safe entry coverage is 26 percent of the city in four minutes.

That is the top, that is the top picture there, highlighted in green.

So basically, our south or southwest and our or northwest center city area is only covered.

That's a quarter of the city that has two into out coverage.

I'll give you an example.

Out at our Northwest Fire Station Engine 9, you have two personnel.

If they get a fire in a far northwest corner, they're gonna be by themselves for minutes, and they're gonna have to make a decision.

That decision is to go in and save a life or mitigate a hazard, or to wait till other people get there.

It takes seconds for fire to grow, and they're left to make that decision for themselves.

And at the end of the day, whatever decision they make is wrong, because you need to wait for two other people, but you can't wait to save somebody's life.

These are the things that we deal with every day, and uh we need to really get a hold on it and move forward and progress forward with NFPA minimum staffing that goes up to 54 percent.

That's over half the city, and with a new fire station, it goes up to 63 percent.

Low hazard assignments.

Our low hazard assignments go into a structure fire at a at your average home.

Currently is at six percent.

And would improve to 39% with NFPA staffing and 52% with a new station.

That is something that is very that is a very alarming rate there.

Medium hazard assignments.

These are garden style apartments, strip malls, uh large apartment buildings, anything larger than 2,000 square feet.

We don't hit the media, we we don't hit the we don't hit the standard zero percent of the time.

With NF with falling within NFPA standards, we could hit that 29% of the time.

Our high hazard assignments or anything over 75 feet, those big warehouses you see popping up all over the city, and and huge apartment buildings.

We do not have the necessary personnel to meet the high hazard requirements on any portion and any portion of our city.

Our mapping analysis, the GIS coverage maps, they highlight gaps and response time sentences.

Now that that came from the data.

That came from the area that needs responses quicker.

Recommended actions.

Staff all suppression apparatus to four personnel, three firefighters and an officer.

Add one station burder GIS model to improve the four-minute coverage, and allocate resources towards the highest risk, highest demand areas.

That there is a picture of a fire station at Linden and East GEP.

I was kind of being having some wistful thinking there, but I had to fill it in.

Company one and Schwader on Fourth Street.

We have engine one, engine three, ladder one, and utility two.

Currently, we run with two firefighters and an officer on engine one, and two firefighters respectfully on engine three and ladder one with utility two, our shift boss driving himself.

Now think about that for a minute.

If you're in charge of a huge operation and you're driving across the city, you're not able to read your notes.

You're not able to mentally prepare.

Staffing that is recommended would be three firefighters and an officer on both engines in the ladder, and an office and the command officer on utility two with a firefighter as his aim.

That way he can better prepare for the incident.

Currently run with two firefighters and an officer.

Recommended staffing is three in an officer again.

We used to have a fire station at Dewbury, and that was closed in 2011.

Since then, they've had to uh take up for that, and they are doing their best with what they have.

Company six, our memorial fire station, which is our busiest firehouse, which has the three busiest pieces of apparatus, call volume.

The engine and ladder are staffed with two firefighters, and the utility one is staffed to one company officer who also covers the Northwest District.

A company officer should be in charge of the companies in his station.

And then they have a proposed station.

They call the company 10.

I'd like to call it company seven.

Would be at Linden and East Gep Street, and that would bring us another three firefighters and an officer.

All this has been proven with data.

This isn't something that we took into our office and said, hey, we're gonna come here and we're just gonna give you some numbers to get what we want.

We operate way below national standards, despite the jobs that our guys do each and every day, the sacrifices they make, the times where they have to work overtime when they don't want to, but have to, because we do not have enough people to staff our fire trucks.

We need to invest in our stations and our staffing.

It's essential.

The data shows a need to have a safer, faster, and more reliable response.

And also, we trust the NFPA.

The city trusts NFPA standards for a lot of things, including our gear, other types of equipment.

It's time that we do the same with our staffing.

Our most important piece of this department, which is our people.

Without the firefighters, all the equipment in the world will do nothing.

Strategic benefits to increase staffing.

We will get uh faster fire attack and improve performance on all emergency calls.

Our injuries and property loss will be reduced, and we could progress through towards 1710 compliance.

The safety of our community depends on being proactive, not reactive.

This has been something that's been on my mind for a few years now, as we always seem to be running behind the eight ball when it comes to staffing our firefighters.

It's that our budget is more important than the safety of the citizens of this city, and to our firefighters.

We go to work each and every day, not knowing if we're gonna go home.

You've seen plenty of uh incidents that have happened.

There was one in Fall River, Massachusetts, nursing home.

It was pretty bad.

Their fire department was not staffed properly.

Guess what?

A lot of lives were lost.

You had firefighters coming from home and and working without gear because they didn't have enough stuff.

That was fixed, but it took that emergency to get fixed.

We do not need an emergency like that in this city.

I don't want to see any of us hurt or die because we don't have enough people.

Where we sit here and realize the sacrifices that we make.

And can put themselves in our shoes and see what we experience every day.

To take our word for what's going on.

We are the subject matter experts.

Okay.

Our jobs should not just be run by a budget.

To take into consideration the safety of our residents because they're our number one priority.

Collaboration and funding.

As president, I am grateful for the collaboration we've had with the mayor's office and with fire administration.

But we need to make that better.

We need to advance it and help the plan and pursue the safer grant, which we've asked for the city to apply for for years, and have always been told we cannot apply.

We also need to look forward more into uh state grants, and we're headed in that direction with state grants, but the safer grant is pertinent to getting more people on the street.

Let's talk about a relief factor and a vacancy factor.

When we hear in budget meetings, we talk about we talk about relief factors, vacancy factors, and the fact of the matter is it's just a budgetary term.

Right now, our firefighters are working excessive overtime in order to keep the staffing where it's at.

That is not something that can continue.

Our members are going to get tired, our members are going to get hurt.

Our members may not come back to work.

We've had a lot of retirements.

A lot of retirements due to many things, and one of those factors is they're tired.

You know, um the vacancy factor has been used to justify budgeting overtime rather than hiring the additional personnel.

You know, I understand we have to be fiscally responsible in the city.

I do.

I do realize that we cannot have 35 people per shift in two weeks.

It's not going to happen, but we need to move in the right direction.

And the collaboration just doesn't have to be between the fire administration and the union or the fire administration and the mayor.

It needs to be among everybody.

Human resources, business manager, city council.

We need to collaborate.

This isn't on us versus them.

This is a safety issue.

We need to we all took an oath to protect our citizens.

So let's live up to that oath and let's collaborate and figure this out.

With that, I want to thank everybody who helped with this.

Our city administration, um, retired chief Mike Reich, Deputy Chief Bear, Chief Griffin, Mayor, the IFFGIS division, and my executive board, as I wouldn't be standing up here today without the hard work of them.

We all share one goal, and that's to be safer as firefighters, having a safe community, and having a stronger fire service all together.

That concludes my presentation.

I do have I do have the actual study with interactive maps.

If anybody has any questions regarding that as well, and then it's all the presentation.

All right.

Um do you have any do you have any questions?

And you know, if I ask questions and you think of something, you know, we'll okay.

Sounds good for um well, thank you.

Thank you, everyone, for for coming and for this valuable info.

Um, I was wondering, Lou, were you did you email the actual study?

Or could you email the actual study?

You said you have the actual study with the data.

I did send I sent you all a link.

Okay, it's actually on online.

Okay.

Click the link and you can go through the study.

Great.

Okay, I can get in my email.

Great.

I just had a couple questions to clarify.

Can you clarify again the overlap issue?

Like explain in detail, you know, an example of what what happens with that overlap issue when uh one, you know, one station is out, and then there's another call.

I'll give you an example.

So we have uh you would have an emergency in the northwest where you would have engine nine go out, and since engine nine does not have an officer, utility one would respond from company six.

Memorial gets an emergency, engine ladder goes, they don't have an officer.

A whole other engine company has to get pulled to the other side of the city in order to have that coverage to have that incident commander, which leaves that district unprotected.

So it's a matter of that there's not an officer available in within one district, and they have to pull an officer from another district, but you're also sending the firefighters from the other district correct.

The firefighters go with the officer, the officer on on the other engines, yes.

Okay, it could also be with with fire engines too.

Fire engines go out of district that leaves the district unprotected.

Okay, all right, thank you.

That helps.

Um the call volume.

Okay, can you just give a little more info on the call volume, like the increase in the call volume?

It says here from 21 to 24, 9,000 plus, well, no, 9,000 plus calls in 2024.

So have you are you saying there's definitely been an increase in call volumes between 2020 and 2024?

Let me clarify that.

That that number of 9,000 is actual responses by individual apparatus.

The call volume for 2024 was around 4,700.

Okay, and then it has increased by almost 20 29 percent.

If between like last year or between the last three years, the whole period for those three years, yes, okay.

So it's increased 29%.

Okay, and what about the number of fires or I mean you have the calls, but actual fires.

Has there been an increase in the number of fires in that three-year period, you know?

It seems it, but just looking at it, I would I would assume yes, but I would have to look at the CAD data to to verify that.

I can't give you a definitive answer.

That would be that would be something more for for our chief and deputy chief.

All right, I mean, it seems like there's been more fires lately, but again, it would be nice to have the exact data.

Um the other one.

And I was gonna ask you about a new station, how vital that is, but apparently it is really vital based on the data from the study.

Correct.

Originally, we were thinking before the study started that the station was going to be uh recommended on the south side, like somewhere near Fourth and Lynn, right?

However, due to the to due to the CAD data and the calls for service, the most strategic place to put it would be near Lyndon and East Gep.

Okay.

I I would think I would I would think that's because of the loss of Dewberry.

Right.

Okay.

But it's still essential to have a station on the south side near Lynn Avenue to respond.

That area is growing back there.

Old Forge, you know, you got the industrial area back there, everything's popping up.

We have a lot of multi-occupancy uh apartment buildings coming up, and our population hasn't increased our official number of population hasn't increased.

I find that surprising.

But all these buildings come up, and we're still where we're at from 50 years ago, since I've learned today.

Okay.

And I don't know if you'll know this, but you talked about the difference in the medium and the high hazard, the buildings.

Um is there data on has there been an increase in medium and high hazard, you know, buildings?

I'm assuming because it's just been so much development in those three years, if we've had a significant increase in those type of buildings, because those are the ones that are really significant with the um the time and the efficiency.

I couldn't give you a definitive answer on that.

And we would have to look at the at the data for that more closely.

Okay.

All right.

I'm I'm assuming so just because of the number of warehouses and apartments that have been coming up.

But then for slide 17, um, because it's pretty like how many what do you what are you saying that we need firefighter-wise per shift?

Total the total number would be compared with what we have now and what we need to meet these.

I believe you're calling for guidelines, regs, whatever.

Uh 31 personnel.

31 per shift.

Yeah.

And how many do we have now per shift?

We work 20.

We we work with 18.

It's 18 now.

Yes.

31 and we're at 18.

Okay.

Let me add that number up for you so I know it's it's correct for it.

Okay.

And I know this is a tough one because I know we brought it up at the last council meeting, and I I felt like the administration felt like we're sending more to the academy next year.

So we're really going to be more on target.

But the one thing that is really significant is the number of retirees.

And um, do you have any idea what we're looking at in the in the next year?

And like how soon do you know if an uh firefighter is going to retire, like within a month, six months?

A firefighter with with his time eligible to retire, could could walk in today and retire tomorrow.

It's it's just a note.

Right.

So do you have any that we have that are eligible to retire that you anticipate, you know.

Do you have any idea guesstimate for next year what we're looking at for retirement?

Those that are in the drop program, that should be, I believe we're looking at about four or five.

But others are unknown.

They they can they can walk in any time and retire.

Do you know how many are eligible will be eligible next year to retire, or can you find that out?

To be around 30 between 30 and 35.

So they would be eligible, they'll have the time in to do it.

Okay.

Okay.

Um, and you I did ask about the overtime too at the last meeting.

Um, so you're saying it's excessive.

Like, can you expand on the overtime as far as you know how how excessive is it at this point?

Well, at this time we're we're utilizing overtime to fulfill the 18.

And a lot of firefighters are are working.

And now we're coming into we're coming into a season where firefighters are being mandated to work overtime.

Um, basically against their will.

Um, and that is something that could be solved with extra personnel.

The extra personnel that we need, the less overtime that we'll work.

You know, it's it's an investment, you know.

Sometimes I believe it's looked at as a detriment to add personnel, but it's actual investment in our community.

It's an investment in our own people.

The well-being of our firefighters, it depends on it.

You know, we don't we don't want a department full of people that are overworked.

Right.

Yeah.

And then I I know I say this for especially the emergency responder departments, like I can I'm concerned about the um the risk of getting injured and being tired and burnout, you know, with overtime.

It's it's a real concern.

It's definitely a real concern, and it's a concern off the bat with working with less people.

Uh, for instance, a firefighter in Bethlehem does could do four or five different tasks at a fire scene, whereas a firefighter in Philadelphia only does one and never does one because they have enough people.

Okay.

And so if we and um if we're looking at sending 15 cadets next year, and we have the 12.

Do the 12 that we sent this year, are they included in the in the um 18 that we have per shift?

Or how many total firefighters do we have?

Let's put it that way.

Right now we have if we're talking budgetary, it would be 101.

Okay.

And does that include the 12 that went to the academy this year?

That includes eight of those that we city.

Okay.

Um, because there were some that didn't.

There's four currently in the fire academy.

Okay.

That's four.

And then there's supposed to be 15 next year going, right?

Correct.

All right.

So we'll be up to 120.

And and how many should we have?

I think I have that.

We should have 104.

100 and 104.

Okay.

Okay.

All right.

Well, thank you.

I um I think that answers that my questions.

I'll look at the data, but um, you know, I probably shouldn't say this, but I will.

I it it reminds me, uh, I think I totally agree with you about the apparatus and you know, the equipment because it we I'm hearing a lot of people complaining, and um, I saw it myself with an appointment this morning where healthcare is building buildings and doing all these other things, and they don't have the people, and it's a real issue.

And I think it's sort of you know, similar in this case that you know the apparatus is important, but we don't have the people to operate it.

And if I'm not mistaken, there are two different budgets.

We're talking capital budget and operational budget.

So we're talking about things that are on the capital budget and trying to mask what's on the operational budget.

We need to we need people that comes from the operational budget.

Maybe that needs to be considered in order to move in the right direction.

Right.

And I think we were fortunate because of the COVID money that we were able to use not some of that money for apparatus.

So, you know, we were lucky that we're able to do that, but um, we definitely need the people to operate the apparatus.

So thanks so much.

This was really um really good information, and I'll look at it further.

Okay.

So I'm done with my questions.

Okay, right.

Uh, I'm gonna ask questions a little bit all over the place because I'm just gonna ask them as they come.

Um, you did talk about the difference between capital and operational.

Um you've asked for capital and operational, i.e.

firefighters, but also a potential additional firehouse.

Um, do you know what kind of budgetary ask you're asking for when it comes to capital?

That I that I could not answer.

Uh I'm basically giving you the data that was presented to us.

Okay.

Um, is that the same for uh our uh operational budget as well?

Do you know the figure of how much this would increase the budget by I could not give you that answer?

No ways.

Um just just curious because I I agree with you.

Like our budget isn't a restriction, but we don't operate a volunteer uh fire department, and we need to be able to correct pay the fire department.

It's um and I think I think working together, yeah.

I think the local does realize that this cannot happen overnight.

Yeah, and that it would take a gradual gradual over time to get to where we need to be.

And I think if we meet in the middle of the road, we could we could solve that.

Yeah, which is why I think that this was the appropriate time to have the meeting because we are heading into a budget season.

Obviously, the 30th is is not a time to come with a comprehensive, like we want 37 firefighters.

Um looking forward to tomorrow, but we will be looking at our budget, and we don't look at the budget in a year.

Um we look at the budget like what's coming up.

So this is the appropriate time to look at this information.

Um there were other questions I had because we've we've brought up warehouses and structural fires.

I'm not gonna ask you how to fight a fire, you know, you guys obviously are subject matter experts in this.

Um, but how does the NFPA define a high rise?

Like what is what's considered a high rise to be over five stories.

Is there a foot like 75 feet the lowest access point?

All right, I know we don't have a lot of that within our denser like downtown districts because of height restrictions, other than places like um the Rooney building, which predates things, um Wind Creek.

Uh I don't I don't know the height of like the dream, the boy that's outside of our I guess I'm thinking when we when we're talking about an increase in high rises, are we talking about what hasn't been built yet?

Because I think we only have about like five or six high rises.

Is there a concern about the multi-occupancy apartment buildings?

Okay.

Um one thing you need to take into consideration.

Uh let's throw Marvine Village.

They're gonna redo Marvine.

Yeah.

Right now, they're they're they're brick homes.

Yeah, they're they're gonna build these homes, they're gonna go up quick and they're gonna burn faster than any home could ever do in Marvin Village.

Okay.

The the construction is cheaper, they don't build them like they used to.

Their construction type is different, and that's gonna that's gonna increase call volume as well.

Okay, all right.

And I always quantify this because this is a conversation, it's just me trying to find information.

I want to make sure that we're making good decisions, and uh so when it comes to these newer builds, don't they offer some kind of different type of like internal fire fighting, like sprinkler systems or something that would make it a little bit easier?

In and in some buildings, there are they are uh standpiped where we can access water from from the stairwell.

Uh they are sprinklered, but sprinklers contain fires.

Sprinklers do not put out fires.

Okay.

So is that the same with warehousing?

Like how actively do you fight warehouse fires?

Or is it just you let the baby burn and well that would all depend on the situation, you know.

Um, but they they are sprinkler too, but like I said, it's they contain fires, they do not they do not put out fires.

Okay.

All right.

And again, these are kind of points of curiosity, not necessarily related to the study, just things that I'm thinking about while we're while we're going through these things.

Um there was something else I wanted to ask regarding.

Um I think the thing we we constantly dance around is like this idea of minimum manning.

Um, and minimum manning is something that you know, just from previous conversations we've had and curiosity on my part.

That's something that kind of went away in 2011.

Um was that like considered a loss in arbitration because like it there was minimum manning at one point and then it went away, and you've been able to operate.

So I just can you kind of talk me through your thoughts on that?

Our minimum manning that we lost is is a loss to the local and to the community.

Uh we had we had had a 22 minimum manning um prior to 2012, and uh we were awarded in arbitration that we would work with 18, sometimes dropping to 17.

That that is a quote that was in the award.

Um, so we're operating with less people, and taking in consideration, I'm gonna go back a few years.

We didn't hire for about four years, five years, and we had a fire chief that sat here and said he didn't need more people, which is felonious if you ask me.

But um, yeah, so are we operating with the like okay?

We already asked that.

We answered that question.

All right.

So the the minimum manning was a loss.

I'm I'm contextualizing the time.

2011 was another financial hit for the city.

Um things were that financial crisis of 2008.

And I'm thinking about like how uh what's happening economically affects, you know.

So as the city does better, then we should be like restaffing to these to these things.

Our city should prosper, you know.

As our city prospers, our department should grow.

Not only our department, a police department.

I know they're having staffing issues too, but the more the more occupancies, the more the more buildings we put up, the more people that come in to visit and go to shows, the more they need protection.

And we're here, we're telling you, this data doesn't lie.

This is something that we didn't come up with.

We we need to work together to solve this.

Oh, can you talk to me about how you gathered the data a little bit?

Uh I know you talked about it briefly, but can you walk me through like in May of 2024?

Um myself and a couple executive board members were talking about our staffing and how we need to how we need to improve it.

And you know, just coming in the city hall and and coming into council meetings, you know, walking in without any data or knowledge and just saying we need more people and getting asked why we needed to get facts.

So the IFF offers this GIS study, and it's a long process.

So uh talked to our district vice president who who uh authorized the GIS study.

I didn't talk to this is going a couple months.

Um I did talk to then retired chief Reich and Deputy Chief Bear and put the cards out there and said, Hey, want to do this study?

We're willing to share it with the city in order for us to move forward.

Uh, we just need data over the last few years.

They're more than willing to help me out.

Took a few months between them and and it to figure it out to get the right data.

We got the data and submitted it to the IFF, which over the course of around 11 months got the got the staffing study done.

The total turnaround was about 18 months.

So did the city itself pay for this, or did the the union pay for the paid for by our union.

Okay.

Um what what I would say to this too is we have a we have a RFP for an efficiency study.

Yes, we do.

Which uh a lot of the items in the in the efficiency study don't meet the things that we need to determine what type of manning we need.

It seems to be more of a study to kind of maintain the status quo.

And if the study was done, like our study is done, that study would see similar numbers as we have.

Data doesn't lie.

No, data does tend to lie.

Um, there was a good book about that, but that's actually called Minewood Statistics, so probably not relevant to this conversation.

Um I'm thinking so when it comes to this this upcoming study that you're talking about, granted, I'm not gonna turn down any type of data.

I'm obviously gonna listen to to the study that is being done.

Um I have looked, it's not often that we have a public safety meeting or even a uh count like a council meeting where we have external data presented that isn't a city funded kind of thing um to try and maintain uh no one being biased.

But I think it could be said either way.

If the the union funds that you can say it's biased one way, the city funds that you can say it's biased another way.

But I think that if we hear all of the data, we can kind of see some kind of interesting things rise to the top and really pinpoint what we what we might be looking at.

Uh I took to the point, like we do invest heavily in apparatus, um, and we have invested heavily in apparatus.

It's it's been really good to see over the past couple of years that kind of turnaround when we first got on when I first got on council four years ago.

It was a very aged fleet, you know, as a result of these financial ups and downs within like the the country when things bottom out, you can't buy anything.

So we've maintained like we've done good with the apparatus, and you're saying that we're not doing good with personnel.

Um when it does come to the personnel that we do have, how is the mental health of our guys?

Well, um, as you know, a few years back we did a we did a survey, yeah, and uh a lot of our personnel were struggling.

How are they doing now?

Because I remember that study that was a very point of we've we've lost a lot of personnel.

Um we've got a lot of new personnel, we've got about 32 new personnel, so that's fresh.

They're new in the fire service, they're eager, they're willing.

Um but I would say that our that our general mental health is kind of stagnant, kind of staying where it's at.

Um, when it comes to uh multiple emergencies at one time, how often is how often is it that you will see like multiple emergencies, not just multiple call-outs, like multiple like structural fires at the same time?

Structural fires at the same time.

Yeah.

Well, when we're talking about fires, it doesn't happen a whole lot.

Yeah, but different types of emergencies, it happens all the time.

Okay, so you have a lot of correct.

Can you talk me through five, 10 flats?

Because five ten flats happen.

You don't have to give me the the play by play, but to me, it was like the fire department's knocked it out of the park.

Um, but that doesn't feel like it's indicative of what you're asking.

My interpretation of the five term five ten flats wouldn't be wouldn't be as accurate as talking to the incident commander about it um and dealing with the stresses that he dealt with, you know, trying to get apparatus and and and personnel to the scene.

Um, but my interpretation of it is we got there and we started doing what we needed to do.

But had that been two in the morning, yeah, it would have been a total whole total out different outcome.

You know, why would that be the case?

Is it just why would that be the case?

Justin, you know, people noticing the fire and and things like that, because I from what I've understood, it was called in.

Yeah, it was seen.

Yeah, you know, also had a lot of external support.

Is that external support harder to come by at night?

Or like that external support is hard to come by in general to begin with.

Correct.

You you gotta look at the numbers and while very vital our volunteer uh fire service is struggling nationwide.

I mean we've we've gone to very limited number of volunteers, and they also have their own areas that they need to cover too.

We're grateful that they came in to assist us, but it it's not going to happen all the time.

Okay.

come by at night or like that external support is hard to come by in general to begin with correct you you gotta look at the numbers and while very vital our volunteer uh fire services struggling nationwide i mean we've we've gone to very limited number of volunteers and they also have their own areas that they need to cover too we're grateful that they came in to assist us but it it's not going to happen all the time all right before I wrap up did you have any additional questions or anything before I wrap up did you have any additional questions or anything um well no just uh piggybacking off that um do you often have other um I know there's a word for other fire companies come in to assist or or need to you know volunteer other mutual aid that's it mutual aid we have we have uh downtown fire department eastern fire department Bethlehem Township um actually Nancy Run yeah comes in for their air truck for specialized equipment and then in bigger bigger events like five ten flats right so for that yeah you you had all the mutual aid for that fire obviously correct okay and you I don't know I mean I can I'll address this but the I guess I'm trying to get a feel for also the study that is going to be done by the city it sounds like they're looking more at like apparatus efficiency but you're saying you you don't think it's really gonna include I don't know if you know anything about it staffing and I can ask that question out of those that are doing it I'm just wondering a lot of the points that why it's being done a lot of the points that we would ask uh of the study like um part of the study we we would like to have members of of each rank interviewed and talked to about about the the atmosphere of the fire department things of that nature stuff like that's not being hit um seem to want to be focusing more on like you know who's off and who's not and and the classic sick time argument that we've had here for decades and um I I would like to say it publicly there is no sick leave abuse um but yeah okay but so this do you so this study it says that the it's been discussed with administration and the union I guess I'm trying to get a feel for what's the difference going to be in this study that the city's doing and the study that the that you did I couldn't tell you that I mean yeah that the parameters you feel that if this study is necessary I I mean I don't want to put you on any study any study to possibly improve the fire department is net is necessary and needed um I just don't I just don't know how how how uh good that study's going to be I mean the turnaround they want the turnaround to be around six months it took 18 months for us to get our data right it's been like 30 years since they did it.

I guess I just don't want to see us doing repetitive studies you know and and spending money on unnecessary correct that study is also that's gonna go into apparatus and things of that nature we did not cover apparatus in our study all we're concerned about is a is our staffing.

Okay it said it was the last time it was done is 1995 yeah on this this the one that the city's doing is going to be on apparatus protection efficiency study and it's gonna be fire and EMS I can see the the parameters of that study was the current funding levels way to say in other words there was when they looked at the at the city they did look at additional funding they looked at fire requirement and how they can maintain uh what they had and if I said David that study we lost who regulated yeah that was right around the closure of the steel too so it was a bottoming out of the we that we lost firefighter yeah it's 95 is right around the bottoming out of the steel too so there was it was an economic hit to the city so it it seems like there's an economic hits of the city at different numbers and economic hits of the city at different numbers that wasn't around the the steel coast yeah yeah that they look at that property now it's very different yeah it is right and we're responsible for it right all right yeah I I hear you okay thank you I don't think I have any more I'll I'll reach out after I look at the data more okay like I said if you if you use the link it all the maps are interactive okay everything's broken down by years great we could walk you through it okay all right well I I would like to say that I think that this is a very proactive step because like just looking historically at data 2011 was a time where we lost some things 2011 um the city's population was 7500 um 2020 the city's population was roughly 75 000 as well i don't believe you can say that about them now um and the the state of the financial state of the city is is relatively strong um you don't stay strong without being responsible and that that's what this is we're trying to be responsible here um one of my favorite websites is strong towns if if you're ever bored and want to look up in this municipal government strong towns is an amazing website and there's this graph that they have I love it it's like these three circles and one is high quality city services one is low taxes and one is high density like and it's it's this kind of joke with strong towns that you can't make all three of those meet there's sacrifices that are being made um I don't believe that the sacrifices should be made

We're trying to be responsible here.

Um of my favorite websites is Strong Towns.

If if you're ever bored and want to look up municipal government, Strong Towns is an amazing website.

And there's this graph that they have.

I love it.

It's like these three circles, and one is high quality city services, one is low taxes, and one is high density.

Like, and it's it's this kind of joke with Strong Towns that you can't make all three of those meet.

There's sacrifices that are being made.

Um, I don't believe that the sacrifices should be made out of public safety, obviously.

Um, so I think that when we're looking at our budget holistically, and we're looking at our city services, we're looking at um our the density of the city, and we're looking at how do we keep our taxes manageable.

I think the flex has to be somewhere, and I again I don't think it's city services where the flex should be.

So that leaves us taxes and leaves us density.

Um, and if we choose density, obviously that makes public safety even more important because that's more people within a small city.

Um, so I would like thank you for coming out.

Thanks for having this conversation with us.

Um, I will once again apologize for the last minute nature of it.

Uh, the administration absolutely wanted to be here.

Uh it's just the budget meeting is tomorrow.

Um, so uh I again I apologize for that, but I felt like this was um necessary and it was a conversation that we should have um especially right around the budget season so we could start thinking about what it looks like if we are to grow, what it looks like to grow in a responsible um manner, keeping the fact that we're talking about personnel, not equipment.

Um so is there anything else you guys need to talk to us about?

No, I just um numerous times while Lou was answering your questions.

There's a lot of things that I wanted to say, but I I'll sort it up and say that like there's a lot of things that were missing this presentation.

Um we didn't have the time that we would have liked to prepare.

There's a lot of data um in the study link, particularly about uh company seven and the losses around that time period of 2011, um, and either reopening company seven or building a station on the south side.

There's there's so much that we didn't get an opportunity to cover here.

Um, and I don't know what our availability is like, but we'd be happy to meet with you and go over the nitty-gritty of all the information the IAF have provided us.

Yeah, and like I I feel like um I hope this is understood.

I definitely have an open door policy.

I feel like other people on council also have an open door um policy, and I I hope you understand how much we are here uh to listen.

This is very much an atypical um meeting, not something that we tend to uh do, uh, but it's still to me it felt like, especially given 510 flats, given the concerns that we've had, there's been a lot of conversation around our fire department over the past four years.

Um, I'm happy to know that relationships continue to improve and to continue to progress.

It's all I've heard any time I've contacted the administration is that they are in constant communication with you all, and it is a good relationship, and that is that's you know, it's heartening to hear considering um things have felt strained lately.

So it's it's not to confine the whole entire conversation to this one room right now.

It is, although I've tried to keep this a little bit informal, there's still a gavel up here, it's relatively formal.

Um, and I'm more than happy to hear anything, as I'm sure the other members of the public safety committee are happy to hear anything, um, as well as council members.

So please do not think that this is an end of a conversation.

It was just the start of a of a conversation and for your ability to present the data to us.

This the uh the survey is is very interactive, and there is a lot of data that was not covered.

We could be here for hours.

Um, but you can't, you have to work.

I know.

Uh, but uh you know, I you I did provide you the link a few weeks ago.

Please take the time to to go through it.

If you have any questions, we're here.

And and one other thing, I just want to let you know that this study was done.

And this is this is a testament to how we've progressed forward in our relationships with the administration and the mayor.

Um, this type of study would not have come forward into a public safety committee meeting five years ago.

You know, so we've made a lot of strides, and in order to progress, we have to have those good relationships.

So I just want to let you know, and I thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you all for coming.

Thank you for coming.

Um and please express to everyone uh our our deepest gratitude for keeping um the city safe.

Really, our first responders within the city of Bethlehem.

Um if I wish budgets weren't a thing you would have all the firehouses, the police would have a precinct, it would be wonderful.

Um I think with with time and concerted like investment within our city, we can get to a place where we have very robust um city services and a fire department and a police department that feels genuinely appreciated.

Um so for legal purposes again, all matters discussed here were informative only.

This was an informational meeting.

Um, and this meeting is adjourned.

Thank you all.

Thank you, Grace.

I really appreciate it.