My name's Ben Weber.

Uh, I'm the District Six City Councilor and the Chair of the Boston City Council on Ways and Means.

Today is July fifteenth, two thousand twenty-six, and the exact time is two.

Oh three PM in accordance with chapter two of the Acts of Two thousand twenty-five, modifying certain requirements of the open meeting law and relieving public bodies of certain requirements, including the requirement that public bodies conduct uh their meetings in a public place that's open and physically accessible to the public.

The city council will be conducting this hearing virtually via Zoom.

This hearing is being recorded.

It's also being live streamed at Boston.gov slash city dash council dash TV and broadcast on Xfinity Channel Eight, RCN Channel 82, and uh five channel nine sixty-four.

Written comments may be sent to the committee email at ccc.wm at Boston.gov and will be made part of the record and available to all counselors.

Public testimony will be taken uh at the end of the uh first round of questions from my colleagues, um, individuals will be called on in the order in which they've signed up and will have two minutes to testify.

If you wish to sign up for public testimony, have not done so, please email our Central Staff liaison, Korean chan at K R I S H M A.C.

O U H A N at Boston.gov for the Zoom link, and your name will be added to the list.

Today's hearing is on two dockets that would fund the planning and design phase of major improvement projects for six Boston public schools, one being our vocational tech school, Madison Park.

Uh the MSBA board of directors voted to invite Madison Park into the MSBA's eligibility period on December 12, 2025.

On October 29th, 2025, the board also voted to invite the other five schools to participate in their accelerated repair program.

The goal is to modernize our aging school facilities and improve the safety, accessibility, and energy efficiency of our educational spaces.

I'll now read both dockets into the record.

Docket number one three one one is a message in order authorizing the city of Boston to appropriate the amount of five million dollars for the purpose of paying the cost of a feasibility study and schematic design associated with the project for the Madison Park Technical Vocational High School located at 75 Malcolm X Boulevard, uh Roxbury, Massachusetts, 02120.

Uh this includes the payment of all costs incidental or related thereto, and for which the city of Boston may be eligible for a grant from the Massachusetts School Building Authority, otherwise known as the MSBA, uh set amount to be expended under the direction of the public facilities department on behalf of the Boston Public Schools.

And docket number one three one two, a message and order authorizing the city of Boston to appropriate the amount of eight hundred and fifty thousand dollars for the purpose of paying costs of a feasibility study and schematic design work associated with window door and roof projects of the following schools: Boston Adult Academy, Joseph J.

Hurley School, Ellis Mendel Elementary School, Joyce Kilmer K through eight school, and uh the uh Lyon uh upper nine through twelve school.

Um, this uh includes the payment of all costs incidental or related thereto, and for which the city of Boston may be eligible for a grant from the Massachusetts School Building Authority, set amount to be expended on the under the direction of the public facilities department on behalf of the Boston Public Schools.

These matters were sponsored by Mayor Michelle Wu and were referred to the committee on July 8th, 2026.

Today I'm joined by my colleagues in order of arrival, Councillor Flynn, Councillor Fitzgerald, Councillor Murphy, and Councillor Louie Jen.

Uh I'm joined, or we are joined by a wonderful panel today.

We've got Brian McLaughlin, senior project manager for the public facilities department, Carlton Jones, Director of Public Facilities, uh Dell Stanislaus, uh the chief of uh capital planning for Boston Public Schools, and Brett Dickens, the assistant superintendent for secondary schools and college career and life readiness um uh for the Boston Public Schools.

Um with that said, uh I think if the panel and get back to the screen here, the panel has uh uh presentation or anything you want to say.

The the floor is yours, and then we'll go for a first round of questions from my colleagues and then uh to public testimony and come back for a second round of questions.

Great.

Thank you, Chairman uh Weber and uh counselors again, Carlton Jones from the public facilities department.

I just want to um introduce myself and my colleague uh Brian McLaughlin, who's gonna run through our slide, senior project manager Brian McLaughlin, and then we're gonna turn it over to our colleagues from Boston Public Schools, uh Dell and Brett.

So without further ado, and I know we have a lot to go through, so I'm just gonna turn it over to Brian.

You have the floor.

Carl, thank you.

Uh thank you, Chair Weber, Council members.

Uh Chair Weber introduced moments ago uh before you today are two loan owners associated with the Mass School Building Authority School Construction Program.

The first uh we'll go through today is the 2025 accelerator repair program projects, and the second is for the Mass and Park Technical Vocational High School feasibility study um funds.

The MSBA um we're gonna be sharing a presentation too.

Is that oh, there we go.

Sorry, can we go to the second slide?

Thank you.

Uh the MSBA is a state authority that oversees the funding of public school construction projects in the state of Massachusetts.

It's a reimbursement agency that works with local school districts to great affordable, sustainable, energy efficient schools across the Commonwealth, and it's funded through one penny of the sales tax.

MSPA has two programs, the core program, which is for larger renovation or new school construction projects like the Boston Arts Academy, Josiah Quincy Upper School, and the Carter School, and the accelerated repair program, which focuses on the repair and replacement of roof windows, boiler, heat pub systems, and otherwise structurally sound buildings.

Uh, next slide, please.

Over the past several years, Boston has made an effort to increase their participation in the Mass School Building Authority program.

As of today, there are 57 projects in various stages of the MSBA process.

The slide provides an overview of the status of these 57 projects.

Of the core projects, which there are seven, the Dearborn, Boston Arts Academy, Josiah Quincy Upper School, and the Carter School are complete.

One school, the Shah Taylor, has recently started the feasibility study.

The Ruth Batson Academy is currently procuring the OPM in Madison Park, started the eligibility period two weeks ago.

Under the accelerated repair program, 34 projects have completed construction.

One is in construction.

Seven are in design slated for 2027 construction.

And eight projects will be starting design later this summer and into the fall.

These collaborative efforts with the MSBA reflect $696 million in construction costs with upwards of $263 million of estimated reimbursement coming back to the city.

Next slide, please.

The first loan order is for the 2025 ARP projects.

For the Boston Adult Technical Academy, Mendel Elementary School, Kilmer, Cater 8 School, and the Mary Lyon School.

This appropriation will allow the MSBA to sign an OPM and architect to begin the design of the projects in the coming months.

The vote will appropriate funds so the city can begin to procure an OPM and architect, then begin the early phases of design as part of the MSBA feasibility study.

We'll be going through each of these separately, and these next three slides are specific to the 2025 ARP projects.

The applications were officially submitted to the MSBA on March 21st.

MSBA reviewed these submissions through summer, early fall of 2025, and visited these schools with their consultant team in August of 2025.

The MSBA board then voted to invite the schools into the 2025 accelerated repair program at their October 30th 2025 board meeting.

Boston eight projects were broken into two groups.

Muniz, Mildred Ab, and Orchard Gardens were approved to start the MSBA process in March 1st, 2026.

Boston Adult Technical Academy, Hurley, Mendel, Kilmer, and Lion Upper were approved to begin on July 1st.

Please note the Muniz Mildred Ab Orchard Gardens had a hearing before you on April 1st, and the council voted to approve the funds to start the design of the projects this past April 15th.

And today we're here to request design funds for the remaining five schools as part of the 2025 ARP program.

Next slide, please.

And please note there's an error on this slide.

That $900,000 should reflect $850,000 as read in by the uh council chairman.

Next step for this project is to request City Council appropriate $850,000 for the design costs at the Bada Hurley Mendel Kilmer Line Upper.

Approval of City Council will allow the MSBA to assign an OPM and architect, most likely in early September.

Design will start in the fall, and we anticipate construction in the summer of 2028.

With that, the next floor slides will be specific to Madison Park.

And I'm going to turn it over to Dell Stanislaw.

Thank you, Brian.

Good afternoon, uh, Council members.

As um my colleague shared, I'm Del Stanislaus, Chief of Capital Planning for Boston Public Schools.

The Massachusetts School Building Authority or the MSBA process for Madison Park began with the submission of the statement of interest application on April 11th, 2025.

This application was supported by a vote by this body on April 2nd, 2025.

As part of its review process, the MSBA conducted due diligence on applications submitted from across the Commonwealth on September 17th, 2025.

MSBA representatives toured Madison Park with district staff and consultants to observe firsthand the facilities condition identified in the application and to understand how those conditions impacted the school's ability to deliver its desired educational program.

Following its review, the MSBA Board of Directors voted at its final meeting of 2025 on December 12th to invite the Madison Park project into the eligibility period, marking the next step in the MSBA school building process.

Next slide.

Madison Park Technical Vocational High School serves approximately 1,000 students and is the only comprehensive technical vocational high school in the city of Boston.

The school offers 20 career and technical education programs, providing students with pathways into high demand careers and post-secondary educations.

Programs span for major career sectors, building trades, communication and technology, human services, and health care.

A key component of the Madison Park experience is the cooperative education or co-op as it's called program, which allows juniors and seniors to earn academic credit toward graduation, gain real world hands on work experience, earn a paycheck while learning in their chosen field.

By combining rigorous academics with career focused technical training and work-based learning opportunities, Madison Park prepares students for college careers, apprenticeship, and direct entry into the workforce and more.

Next slide.

Madison Park students have incredible talent, ambition, and potential, but the current facility does not provide the learning environment they need and deserve.

What we know today is that Madison Park facilities are outdated and can no longer fully support the high quality student experience our student staff and families expect and deserve.

The building limits opportunities for learning, teaching, and career preparation in ways that directly impact student success.

The project represents a once-in-a-generation opportunity to transform Madison Park into a state of the art technical vocational high school and Boston's premier workforce development center.

We are excited to partner with the MSBA to create the modern learning environments that students, educators, families, alumni, and industry partners have long advocated for.

By investing in Madison Park, we are investing in Boston's future workforce.

This is about equity, opportunity, and excellence.

Every Madison Park student deserves a school building that matches the quality of the education, talent and aspiration found within.

Next slide.

Now we're going to walk through the eligibility period.

The eligibility period is the start of the MSBA core program.

Madison Park eligibility period started two weeks ago on July 1st.

The eligibility period allows the MSBA to gauge financial and community readiness of districts, but by allowing them nine months to complete certain preliminary requirements of the MSBA construction program.

Eligibility period action items include completing the initial compliance certification, forming school building committee, completing district enrollment questionnaire, providing districts maintenance plans, submitting schools' educational profile questionnaire, appropriating funds for a feasibility study.

To date, the project team has completed the following.

The team has completed initial compliance certification form, formed a school building committee, submitted the maintenance plan, submitted the enrollment questionnaires, and submitted the school educational profile.

Today we are here before you requesting five million dollars to bring on an OPM and architect to conduct a feasibility study through schematic design.

Next slide.

Next steps for the project is to finalize the remainder of the eligibility task, which should be completed in August.

MSBA board will invite the Madison Park into the Capitol pipeline, likely at the October meeting.

Feasibility study and pre-design work will commence this time next year.

I'll now turn it over to my colleague Brian McLaughlin.

So in closing, uh PFD and BPS are here to request $850,000 to start the design of the five ARP projects at the line at the Boston Adult Technical Academy, the Mendel Elementary School, Kilmercata 8 School, and the Mary Lyon School.

We're also here to request $5 million for Mass and Park Technical Vocational High School to start the procurement of the OPM in Architect, which will allow us to start the feasibility study upon a successful board vote from an upcoming MSBA board meeting.

With that, we'd like to turn it over to the council for any questions.

Okay, thank you very much.

Um I'm gonna turn it over to my colleagues in order of arrival.

Uh just uh for everyone's sake.

I've got okay, I've got uh first up counselor Flynn, then Councillor Fitzgerald, then Councillor Murphy, then Councillor Louie Jen, then Councillor Culpepper.

Uh so counselor Flynn, uh we'll go six minutes.

Um and then we'll we'll you know we'll have time for a second round.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

I strongly support the Madison Park proposal.

I also went to a vocational technical high school that's now closed on Roscoe High School, but I do know how important um vocational training and education is.

Um so again, I'm I'm I'm I I will support, I will support Madison Park, but I I do want to go back to the Boston Public Schools uh plan before they wanted to apply to the mass school building authority under the state program.

We were doing a lot of work on Madison Park as it relates to feasibility study, um hiring contractors, designing at least three contractors that I'm aware of from my notes, um, were doing work on Madison Park before the city wanted to get into an application process with the state, including um Perkins and Will left field, um, another another another contractor.

Is that accurate to say we we have spent money on various contractors already to support Madison Park?

And if so, is that information able to be used as part of this study?

Oh, that's a great question, Counselor Flynn.

I'm gonna have to answer it with a yes and a no, and and this is what I mean by that.

Yes, so there was a lot of good work that was done uh as you had pointed out.

Uh, we have we have gotten uh significant information, we've made um changes relative to the program of the school, and all that information is going to be is extremely valuable as we move forward with the MSBA process.

Now, the now part is that the MSBA does require that we go through their process and that we have to go through their selection as it relates to an OPM and to a designer.

Um, but I do know that um at least I strongly believe that uh the teams that we worked with before are going to be uh most interested in applying and will have a great advantage because they've already done work with the city on Madison Park as they are going through the selection process of the MSBA.

Um that Ferkins and Will Left Field and another group called Anum Architects.

Um the city spent money to them for the um for their professional services, but how much did we how much did we give them?

I don't have that number offhand, Counselor Flynn, but we can certainly get that for you because we do track as you can imagine all of our expenditures.

I just don't have that in front of me.

Does anyone have it?

Does anyone there have it?

Uh I don't have it either, but just one clarifying point.

Um on the the contractors piece.

So the team of uh left field and Perkins and Well and Day, they were not contractors, they were consultant, they were consultant teams that was um hired to conduct studies.

So just wanted to clarify that.

Okay.

Yeah.

Um, but what besides those three, were there any others that we we um we hired?

And you mentioned Anum architecture.

Yeah.

So it's just those three, no, no other one, no other groups.

That's correct, counselor.

Yeah, okay.

Well, through the chair, if I could get a um, if I could get how much we paid um each each company, I I would like to see that um if possible.

Um so is that public that's public information, I would assume, isn't it?

It's public information.

We just have to get it out of our system e-builder.

Okay, okay.

Um is there any other any other documents that that are helpful to me to review um prior to Boston going into discussions with the um state for the mass school building authority that I could I could review just to ensure that we're we're spending uh money appropriate appropriately, and um I just want to do my due diligence to ensure that uh taxpayer money is spent appropriately.

Is that is that fair to say?

Uh we'll have to look and see which documents we actually prepared, uh, because a lot of it was preliminary, a lot of it was you know, um work product.

Um so I'll have to go back and see what actually we put together and and um you know was was public, if you will.

Because there's there are a lot of notes, there are a lot of uh you know, studies, calculations, I presume.

We'd have to go back and see what we have actually that we can produce that's that's would be meaningful for your review.

Okay.

So for the chair, am I are you able to help me with that information, Mr.

Chair?

Yeah, I mean, we will we'll submit the request and see what the response is and uh you know in terms of getting you the numbers of dollars spent.

I don't I don't know about the you know memos prepared or whatever, but we'll see what they have to say.

Okay.

So what what is the cost, what is the estimate cost of of met of a new Madison park?

What is the um what is the total figure that we're looking at?

Well, the interesting thing with the MSPA process is they are the ones who will come up with that number.

Um there have been a variety of estimates that have been kicked around, but it really depends on what the final uh the final design and final scheme so for and and Brian can tell you more about this since with his experience with the MSBA, but we are required to, for instance, look at various options.

One of the options is the no-build option, right?

They want to say what can you do in your existing footprint.

Another one might be what would you do in other locations, and there's also a renovation option.

Um so my my point is that to give you a number at the moment is presupposing part of their process, which we don't want to get ahead of the MSP.

All right, well, then what was the estimate that Boston had for Madison Park not using mass school building authority applications?

Is it just just to so your six minutes is up is perfectly fine to answer this question and then uh we're gonna get to it?

I'm gonna say it was in the in the order of magnitude between 400 and 600 million, but it was a moving target because it really depended on what that final design option was going to be, but it was in that neighborhood.

So in that order of magnitude for sure.

Are we talking now potentially a billion dollar to build a new Madison Park?

My personal opinion, counselor, is a billion dollars is high.

Um, but you know, again, it really depends on where we put it.

Do we tear down any existing properties, the existing uh Madison Park or other locations?

There's so many variables that would go into that equation.

I would think even even at our I I never even heard of uh a number that was even close to a billion dollars, even when people were kind of speculating or trying to do like square foot takeoffs or other types of uh ways of approaching it.

Uh the high water mark I ever heard was like 800 million, and that was again highly speculative, depending on what you did, you know.

How many of the different you know, there's seven buildings at Madison on the complex.

How many of the buildings are we talking about?

Right?

Yeah, well, the the only reason I say that 800 million is because um, you know, knowing if if Madison Park is, you know, it's gonna take a couple of years um to build uh inflation, tariffs, taxes, cost of uh material, you know, if if the estimate was 800 million a couple of years ago, it could be it could be close to a billion dollars two or three years from now, though.

Right, but I just want to for the record, I just want to say that 800 million dollar estimate was like doing every single thing you can possibly do, putting everything into the complex, taking down multiple buildings, swing space.

There were a lot of factors that went into that 800 million, and again, that was a it was better than back of the envelope, but it was kind of close to a back of the envelope estimate.

So and and more recently, we were talking in, like I said, in the 400, 600 million dollar range, and again, that was without having all the variables looked.

Yeah, okay.

Counselor Flynn, I'd just like to uh give our our colleagues uh I know I know these are important questions now, Council Webb.

Yes, no, I agree, and to the extent I don't want to uh step on anyone's toes here, but for Carl, at what point would we have a better sense at the end of this feasibility study?

Uh you know, yeah, yeah, Carl, if if you don't mind jumping me jumping in.

Um so after we procure the OPM and architect, we'll conduct the feasibility study, feasibility study leads to the schematic design submission of the MSBA.

The schematic design submission to the MSBA will include a estimate, a schedule.

Um, and we'll at that time we'll know what the anticipated cost and reimbursement coming back to the city will be for uh for the project.

Of the preferred option likely won't happen until about probably on the rough timeline we're working on right now, probably fall of 2028.

Okay, and Ryan, to be clear, Brian, to be clear, that's a preferred option, right?

The PSP?

That it would be the schematic design would be the preferred option that would be submitting to the MSPA that they would have to re-approve.

Obviously, the MSBA plays a role in this because they're reimbursing on this, so they want to make sure the agreed upon solution is the most fiscally responsible and educationally appropriate solution to the district's needs.

Okay, thanks.

Uh so uh Councillor Flynn, thank you very much.

Uh yeah, you can ask questions in a second round if you need to.

Counselor Fitzgerald, uh set the timer for six minutes.

Thank you, Chair.

Uh, and thank you to the panel uh for being on here today on this important topic.

Um so ultimately I could say that I I am I am uh behind this uh authorization of the five million to look into right this feasibility study.

Um I think it's uh you know Madison Park does need new life.

We do need to reinvest in our schools, building new schools is exactly what the city needs.

So I don't want to not take that at least doing the study on the feasibility, and we are supportive of that.

Um so I think it's worth this this chunk of change up front to allow for that feasibility.

However, my question remains on the back end, um, and it's it's a little bit to what Councillor Flynn was just talking to, but um wondering about the you know, looking at the comparables of other schools that have been built recently, whether in Boston or in surrounding you know Greater Boston, um, and some of the huge price tags that can come with that.

Um even with a uh you know, I don't know what we get from MSBA reimbursed, it's called you know, uh 30%, 25, 30, 35 percent, whatever it may be.

Um, I would still assume looking at some comps from other schools that we're gonna be in that like you know, 400, 500 million dollar range.

I know we've got a couple of the things already in the queue with MSBA with Ruth Batson, which I'm excited about in my district, um, and I think it's the uh the Taylor Shar, if I'm not mistaken, is also somewhere ahead of this one, ahead of Madison Park.

Um, but knowing some of those big numbers are coming down the line, I just want to be transparent with with the with the community as well, as what that might do in soaking up the capital costs of of some other projects, right?

I I do believe these are good projects, but I also want to know what uh folks to know what the this body should know is then what does that mean we might be giving up on the back end, right?

I mean, does this mean that there are some other capital projects that uh that are in the five-year capital plan currently that um if things do get if we get into things like big numbers, cost overruns, interest rates, uh labor, etc.

that continue to escalate and we're looking at bigger numbers.

Does that soak up?

Do we have to pull that from other potential projects to make sure that can go forward?

And if so, do we know what projects that might be?

Like, do we start to dip into streets and sidewalks or other things, or is that all can we keep it all separate on a capital level?

Um so I again want to say I am supportive of this and think it is worthwhile to do the feasibility study.

However, I I want to be honest with everyone about what potentially those long-term impacts are to the capital budget.

That's a good idea.

I don't think anyone can speak to that.

I'm that might not be the right panel, but that is that's ultimately my my biggest concern uh going forward.

Like I can start answering the question, Councilor Flynn, but you're right.

That really is a question for the budget office and for the for that uh cabinet.

Um I however, I do know with conversations from them that they are very mindful of the effect that this project will have on the entire capital plan, right?

Uh and so um they have already begun, as I understand, they've already begun to forecast and look at what they would do and how we would manage and what effect that would have on the capital plan.

Uh, my understanding also is that it's not a matter of taking money from an existing project or existing uh allocations, but more about not really accepting more or much, much more to add on top of all of that, right?

So I what they're doing is they they've started like a couple of years ago talking about how are we going to manage this, how do we sequence, how do we ensure that we can still move forward with necessary work or state of good repair projects as you often hear them speak of?

Uh, how do we continue to move forward without getting ourselves overly committed?

And so I think I I'm gonna stop there and say that's you know that the specific how are they gonna do it, what the plan is, what the thinking is that really should come from them.

But I could just tell you from conversations I've had with them that this is their thinking that you know they want to be able to move forward um smartly uh with what we already have in the pipeline, um, and we're making adjustments to make sure that we are continuing to move forward with this major capital uh expenditure in mind.

Okay, yeah, obviously with just uh other recent issues and recent big projects seeing things and and just knowing development and construction in my past anyway, like overruns are pretty typical, and um, you know, when you have something this size, the overruns can be a sizable and and it affects things a little bit greater than just the you know a couple of bucks here and there.

And um, I just wonder what else might be impacted, and if so, you know, where is that pulled from, etc.

But um, yeah, that might be something I follow up with OBM, but but thank you, Cal.

I really do appreciate that.

Um as for the uh accelerated repair, what what did the and uh Mr.

McLaughlin?

This might be more for you, I'm not sure, but what is the estimated reimbursement on that?

When you do the accelerated repair versus the core program, is that higher or lower?

I actually don't know over uh which between the different the two programs.

Sure.

So the the district receives a base reimbursement rate that would be for both core and accelerated repair program projects.

We realize uh a larger reimbursement on accelerator repair program projects.

Um because when we're doing a core pro core program project, we're not only working towards the reimbursement rate, but the MSBA also has caps their cost per square foot, which the city of Boston construction is usually higher than that cap.

So that impacts our actual realized reimbursement on larger projects, which we usually see a lower percentage rate than what our actual reimbursement rate is.

So our reimbursement rates are around 60%, which we usually see um, which we usually realize or or close to it on accelerator repair program projects, core program projects are actual reimbursement rate, um which is impacted by the uh square foot costs is is usually is lower than that.

Gotcha.

No, and so it's if so, but either way it's the same for ARP and core the same way for the cost of square foot because it's higher regardless of what program you're going through, the cost per square foot is higher.

Yeah, for the core program projects cost per square foot is higher in MSB recalculates that every calendar year.

Okay.

Um thank you.

I I see chair back on, but um uh the main question was answered, and uh I do appreciate the time, guys, and thank you so much.

Okay, thank you.

Uh Counselor Murphy.

Unmute, I think we care.

Yeah, uh so my one question, Brian, or someone if you could just talk through with the feasibility study.

I know we've talked about many of them in the past and why they're necessary, but if you could refresh my memory, does that come back to us?

Like, because I know my former colleagues and probably colleagues after will kind of ask these same types of questions.

What if we find out it's too much or other things are happening in the city that are gonna need to be addressed, or have we already locked in?

It's just kind of giving us an idea of how much we're gonna spend, but we've already committed to this.

Yeah, so the great thing about the MSBA, this is a great question, counselor.

Uh the great thing about the MSBA process is that during the life of the project, uh you appropriate funds twice.

The first is why we're here today, and that's to get money to bring on an OPM and an architect, which will go through a feasibility study.

Uh, and they'll design a project to a place that will give you the the schedule, the budget, and the reimbursement.

Once we're at that point, that's the schematic design submissions to the MSBA.

We submit that to the MSBA, they approve it, and then we have to come back to the city council with what that large uh dollar or the larger dollar figure will be to complete the design through construction completion.

So probably about I'd say 18 to 24 months from now, after the schematic design is complete, we'll have to come back to city council and present to you what the scope and the cost will be for a future mass and park project.

Awesome.

Thank you for that.

And just looking forward to supporting this when it comes forward to us.

So thank you, everyone, for being on.

Thank you, Chair.

Okay, thank you.

Uh, we've been joined by Councillor Orell.

Uh Counselor Culpepper is just ahead of you.

Um, so counselor Culpepper, uh, set the timer for six minutes.

Uh you're on mute.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Yeah.

Uh I have can you hear me now?

Great.

I I had some questions that had to do with the timeline.

I know the nine months was mostly for planning and design.

But what's the overall timeline for if all the money falls in place?

Completing this project.

Right.

Yeah.

Do you want me?

I I think the the goal will be to start um construction in 2030 with that.

I mean, it's gonna be a two-plus year construction uh process due to the large nature of the building.

So we'd probably anticipate about three years of construction.

So maybe um again, we're very early on in the process.

Um the goal would be to get into the ground 2030 with the estimated completion date of 2033.

And can you take me to the seven years that that would take what that looks like?

We know the nine months of planning and design.

What is the so you're thinking 2033, right?

So that's about seven years.

What's the four years from 2026 to 2030 look like?

Hello?

Sorry, just finding my mute button.

Okay, okay, okay.

Apologies.

That's okay.

So we we still have some time to go through the MSBA process, right?

We have to complete the eligibility period.

Right.

And we are anticipating.

That's how long.

Yep, that's anticipating a board vote of October of 2026.

We have consultant selection, which will likely be from the fall of 2026 through the summer of 2027.

The selection of the OPM and the architect, which will likely would which will likely be complete sometime late summer, early fall of 2027.

Okay.

Then we have the feasibility study for the MSBA, which is usually broken up into two parts, preliminary design program, and then the preferred schematic report.

That will take us from the fall of 2027 through the fall of 2028.

Okay.

That will then lead to a schematic design submission in the fall of 2028, which will be the time when we come back to this body with a better understanding of what the project scope and budget will be for a future Madison Park.

After schematic design, we'll go into design development construction documents and bidding.

That's 2029.

2029.

And that's again, that's a very high-level overview of what a process may look like if we're able to move forward with the uh appropriation today and get approved from the MSBA in October.

And at what point in this stage will number one, the costs be determined.

And the money locked in to actually pay for the building.

Um at the schematic design submission, um, which we yeah, um, probably late summer fall of 2028.

So we won't know how much this is gonna cost until 2028.

Yeah, probably second half of 2028.

And at what point will the money be uh approved or appropriated after the schematic design?

So we submit the schematic design to the MSBA, the MSBA board approves the schematic design, and that triggers a 90-day period where the district has to appropriate funds to support the remainder of the project.

So after the schematic design is approved by the MSBA board, we'll come back to the city council, present the total uh project budget to you guys, and then you'll you'll have a vote as to whether or not to move forward.

And so it could be 2030 that we actually vote on approving it.

No, it would be 2028, sometime in 2028.

No, no, you said this you said that schematic design for fall of 2028.

Yep.

Right.

Then you would submit this schematic design at some point in 2029.

No, 2028, the second half of 2028.

We're looking at late summer, early fall for the schematic design submission to the MSBA.

They will then bring it to their board at one of their board meetings around the same time, probably fall of 2028.

Once they vote, slow down.

We have to go back to the city council.

So you you said the schematic design will be completed in the fall of 2028.

That's what I wrote here.

The schematic design will be completed in the fall of 2028.

It will then be submitted to the board.

MSBA board, the MSPA board.

But the amount, the funding, will we know the funding at the end of the schematic design process?

When we submit the information to the MSBA board, they will at that point we'll know what the total project budget will be for the project.

In 2029.

Late no fall 2028.

Okay, so but I'm just trying to get this clear.

Yes.

Yep.

We won't know how much it will cost at that point.

We will.

We will.

Yes.

So at the end of the schematic design period, we'll know the costs.

Correct.

And the reimbursement in a uh schedule.

And a schedule.

And at that point, fall of 2028.

It will then be submitted to the board.

What the amount of how much it will cost to actually build the new school.

Counselor, if I may.

At that point, it's still an estimate, though.

But I just want to make sure that we're clear.

Yeah.

That at the point of schematic design, you get a bid estimate.

Or design estimate rather.

But you won't truly know how much is gonna cost until it's actually bid.

Okay, so okay.

So we'll get a guess to make in fall of 2028.

Right.

The guesstimate will then go to the board.

And the fall.

Yeah, it it's a pretty thorough estimate.

It it we have architects and OPMs who use professional estimators uh based upon a design of a building that will give us a a very a good estimate.

So it's just it's beyond just a guess, it's beyond just a guess.

It's a little, it's very much not a guesstimate at that point.

Councillor Cole.

Sorry, I just uh you've got a few minutes over to give Councilor Morrell a chance.

But I just wind can I wind this up now?

Yes, great.

Thanks.

Um you didn't count the amount of time they're speaking, is just talking counting my time.

So how so in 2028 in fall we'll have a cost associated with the development, it will then go to the board, right?

Correct.

And how long will it be before the board approves it?

They said Brian.

The MS the MSBA board will will submit the schematic design and the MSBA board will vote on it probably six weeks later.

This is this is um okay, okay.

We're working very closely with the MSBA during this time, so there's a process in place.

So we're so we're at close to 2029 there, right?

Okay, so leading up to the fall of 2028 at the schematic design.

The fall is September, right?

Yes, like summer, early September.

Right.

It goes the so the November board vote, right?

Okay.

So with the November board vote, they'll approve it.

It will then go out to bid.

No, then it'll go into design.

It'll be further design after the schematic design submission.

Okay, how long will that take?

That will be through the end of easily at the end.

2028 into the 2029.

Right, right.

In 2029, it will then go out to bid.

Ideally, ideally, yes.

Yeah, maybe by the spring or summer of 2029.

I think that's reasonable.

Um early bid packages, not the full full construction.

Right.

Then it will come back if the if with uh more credible number or more solid number, maybe at the end of the summer 2029.

Are you speaking of after it's bid?

Right, right.

So the bid right, right.

So we're at fall of 2029 when it comes back, or the bid goes out, and then went to 2030.

We will have a final number, we'll have a final number.

We yes, we'll have a final number because we're then going into construction.

Right, in 2030.

That's correct.

Okay, but we won't be back before the city council unless it's the last time we go to city council for funding will be at the schematic design submission back in the fall of 2028.

Okay.

And so the shovel in the ground, we're talking about maybe fall of 2030.

I would say winter 2030.

I'd say, yeah.

Okay.

And so, and that's three years.

Okay.

So it's about seven years from now.

For it to complete.

Right.

Yes.

That's what we've been seeing on MSPA projects.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

Thank you.

Okay, thanks.

I do have a few more questions, but if there's a second round, I'll I'll raise them and the second.

Thank you, Mike.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Sure.

Uh Council Morrell, doing uh six minutes.

Um okay, Councilor Warrell.

Uh well, save your place in line.

I think uh I I know my colleagues have some other questions.

I don't know.

Do we I wanted to just make room for public testimony?

Karishma, is there anyone?

Sorry, Mr.

Chair.

There are two people for public testimony.

Oh, okay.

Before public testimony, Council Warrell.

Sorry about that.

And um, thank you, Chair, and thank you to the panel that's here.

A lot of questions um that I had have been asked, but the one thing that I don't think I've caught is the location.

Are we submitting this with any one location?

Or can we submit?

Are we submitting multiple locations?

You talked to me about how location is determined in this process.

Ryan, will you take that one?

But the answer is no, we don't submit for a location.

No, during the uh the feasibility study um as part of the MSBA process, we have to look at multiple options for a solution to a pro to a future project for any of the schools we're working with in the MSPA.

As part of that, we have to look at a no-build option, addition renovation of the existing structure option and news new school construction.

Um during the feasibility study, we will um explore various sites that uh potential project could be located on.

Um, but that will be something that will be um discussed and reviewed as we get further along in the MSBA process.

Awesome.

And I know um, Mr.

Jones, you've talked about in the past cost or building a new school being I think it was two, three or four times as high.

Are we seeing that steady steady out now, or is it still increasing?

Interestingly enough, counseling.

Good afternoon, Councillor Rurell.

Interestingly enough, we're seeing things plateau.

I don't want to say they're coming down, but they're not continuing to increase.

So our bids are coming back more favorably than we were expecting in in several cases.

Again, you know, the market changes all the time, but uh it's not like skyrocketing skyrocketing like it had been.

It seems like it's sort of plateauing at the moment, which I'm we're grateful for.

Expensive as it is, it's good to hear that it's plateauing.

That's right.

Um, no, no further questions uh from me, but definitely a process that I'll be staying engaged with.

Thank you.

Okay, thanks.

Uh, I guess just a couple questions from the chair.

Um, in terms of the feasibility study, is there like a community process around that?

I mean, how how do we in terms of like what what we're trying to do, whether we're renovating the existing building, knocking it down.

I mean, what what um what sort of community involvement is there?

I think that's one of the best parts of the MSPA uh MSPA projects is the amount of community process that is required to be part of the feasibility study um in the overall project.

Uh once the OPM and architect are on board, uh a significant amount of the work is gathering information from school community uh in the the water community around Madison Park and all those that play a role in uh Madison Park will have their voices heard when working through the feasibility study into the SMAC design.

Okay, and then can you just break down a little bit more the five million dollars?

Like how how do you expect that to be spent?

So I once we put the OPM procurement out, we'll get the OPM, we'll negotiate a fee with them.

Um be done for the architect.

I think five million dollars is probably a little more than we'll initially need, but I want to make sure there's enough to bring on the right team to move this forward.

It's usually around 70-30 uh split during the feasibility study in terms of the OPM getting 30% of the appropriation in the architect in their um additional services related to it, could be hazmat um consultants or um different consultants they may need to bring on for part of the explorer work associated with the feasibility study.

So it's usually like I said, it's usually a 30-70 split when it when you break down the the overall appropriation in the once the fees are negotiated with the team.

Okay.

Uh I guess just in terms of the timeline that we were working on, like when will we see Madison Park like in the in the full cost as part of the capital budget?

Um because now there's money for Madison Park in the Capitol budget, but it's not, you know, I don't think it's anywhere near the what we expect it to cost.

I'm not quite sure I understand your question, uh Mr.

Chair.

Are you saying that how the money that's already in the Capitol plan relate to the money that we will request in the future?

I guess so.

We have 90 days once it's approved by the MSBA to appropriate the funds, and then we get reimbursed or our portion of it, I guess.

You know, when like when will we have that amount in the you know available, I guess.

So the reimbursement happens on a much different path and stream.

Um, and Brian, again, I'm gonna ask you to speak to that because it it in my mind it has changed over time, so I don't want to misspeak.

But in terms of the money that um would be part of the appropriation, it's additive, right?

So OBM will say however much money we have now, how much more money we need will be the total request, and they'll just ask for the difference, minus what has already been spent based on this appropriation.

Would that be in the capital budget for the next year?

That's correct.

It's all part of the capital budget.

Okay, uh, Brian, you agree.

I think.

Yes.

Yeah.

Okay.

Um thank you.

Uh first that's it for the first round.

I think if we have two people uh for public testimony, let's hear from them, and then we'll go to my colleagues if they have any other follow-up questions.

They're becoming panelists now.

Hello.

Um, sorry.

My name is Gregory Maynard, and I am the co-founder and executive director of the Boston Policy Institute.

In Boston's most recent capital budget, which is supposed to show capital spending from FY27 to FY31.

It calls for spending a total of just 100 million dollars on Madison Park.

That number seems unrealistically low, given that the most recent estimate for Madison Park was 700 million dollars.

That gap is concerning because as we heard in today's hearing, the city plans to start construction in 2030, meaning FY30 or FY31, firmly within the time frame for the most recent capital budget.

The gap between Madison Park is currently budgeted at and what it will actually cost is important because it highlights an issue that has gotten a lot of attention in the most recent round of hearings at Boston's Capital Budget.

That issue is how inaccurate the capital budget seems.

Many projects are included year after year, with the money supposed supposedly pledged to them never actually spent, while other projects spend far more than was estimated in the budgets presented to the council.

Just how much of a gap there will be between the hundred million dollars that is in the most recent capital budget depends on how much Madison Park ends up costing.

The 700 million dollar estimate is now quite old.

It was created back in 2023.

Looking at the other urban public high schools across Massachusetts, the cost could be even higher.

Somerville High School was completed in 2021, and it cost 256 million dollars.

Revere high school broke ground last year, and it is estimated to cost 493 million dollars.

Brockton High School, which is still in the planning stages, is estimated to cost 800 million dollars.

What does this all mean?

There are two options.

Either Boston's five-year 4.4 billion dollar capital budget will in fact be far higher to account for the hundreds of millions of dollars that Boston needs to spend building Madison Park, or the capital budget will stick with the top line numbers for those later years, and a lot of other spending currently called for in that future FY28 to FY31 period will not happen.

There is a problem with Boston's capital budget.

Counselors have talked about it and not gotten good answers, and this is an excellent opportunity to clear up that particular concern.

Thank you so much.

Okay, thank you.

Uh next up.

Uh good afternoon.

My name is Ayush Bachpey.

I'm the political organizer of the Boston Teachers Union, and on behalf of over our over 10,000 members, we are in firm support of the Madison Park Technical Vocational High School project and other schematic reviews and payments towards the MSBA program, highlighted in dockets 1311 and 1312.

Madison Park is the only vocational school in the city and is a cornerstone of the neighborhood.

It provides clear pipelines to employment opportunities and economic stability for countless Boston students.

A new campus for the school will provide students, teachers, and faculty with a sorely needed new campus that is overdue to our community.

We are greatly encouraged by the city's increased use of the MSBA process and would like to see the city pursue even more of these projects.

Boston has some of the oldest facilities in the state that are in dire need of repair.

Furthermore, all projects do not need to be to the scale of Madison Park.

The city can and should pursue other projects similar to the renovation of the PJ Kennedy or Sarah Roberts in 2025.

We look forward to working with all the partners of Boston Public Schools community to ensure that every Boston child can be guaranteed a school building that can be safe, comfortable, and successful in.

Thank you so much once again to the council for the time.

And once again, the BTU is greatly encouraged by the city's pursuit of the MSB program to transform our school district.

We are strongly in support of both MSBA applications and dockets 1311 and 1312.

Okay, thank you very much.

Krishna, I think that's it for public testimony.

That's it.

Okay, uh, so we're gonna go for any follow-up questions.

Actually, I mean I I think Councillor Flynn, you got some questions at Culpepper you've mentioned.

If anyone else has followed questions, just raise your hand uh of the counselors and I'll and I'll call on you.

So Councillor Flynn, uh give you three minutes.

Thank you.

With with Madison Madison Park and the John O'Brien School basically sharing a campus.

What impact does planning have on Madison Park on O'Brien?

Um, especially.

What is the status of O'Brien?

The the short-term plan, the long-term plan.

What impact will it have with potentially a new a new school?

Um but I thought there was I thought there was going to be a decision by BPS.

They promised a decision on O'Brien, what the plan was for O'Brien.

Um, but I don't think that was ever announced.

Um do you have any updates for me?

Uh thank you for that question, counselor.

Right now, there's no um uh at the district level, we don't have any current like major renovation or new build plan for the O'Brien.

Our current plan as a district is to continue ongoing maintenance and improvement to the building um to support student learning where feasible.

But I uh well thank you, but but I I do remember when uh Superintendent Skippett did promise us that there would be a new um there would be a plan for O'Brien that would be released publicly, but that was that was a couple years ago.

Um why why isn't there a plan for O'Brien?

Um the currently, as we're looking at um just like all of the projects in the MSBA pipelines and all of the commitments, there's the superintendent and the mayor is still committed to the O'Brien school community.

Um we need to move forward the current uh the current um projects in the pipeline.

Right now we have more projects in the pipeline that we've ever had.

We have the Ruth Batson, we have the Shaw Taylor that's going through the pipeline and also um Madison Park now, and quite a number of ARP projects and some smaller capital renovations across the district as those projects are moving out as projects are moving out of the pipeline.

Um as a district and city, we are committed to the O'Brien school community and um will um continue to work with our MD MSBA and other partners to move more projects through the pipeline.

But the the plan for O'Brien was scheduled to be announced at the end of 2024.

And you know, this that that was two years ago.

I'm I'm just trying to I'm just trying to get into the details of why hasn't that plan been released and what is the plan for O'Brien?

Because the Madison Park has an impact one way or the other on O'Brien, and I support both schools.

Uh, but I I want to know what the plan is for um the O'Brien.

And we we were promised by by BPS senior leadership that it would be released, and that was two years ago.

So, as I said, looking at the current like capital, like looking at our current capital budget, right?

Um, we do not have any major renovation or um new build plan for the O'Brien.

However, our like our current plan um for the O'Brien is to continue ongoing working with the school leader and the O'Brien staff and team on ongoing maintenance and improvement to um the O'Brien campus.

Uh um just like where um as a district we see feasible.

So our facilities team is in close collaboration with the school leader.

Um, so is our uh deputy superintendent of operations and collaboration, collaborating with the O'Brien team on ongoing maintenance and improvement of their current space.

What is that, Mr.

Chairman?

But uh the three three sorry, can you hear me the three minutes are uh over up anything to wrap up?

No, I know though I don't I I it's not enough time for me to get into the details, Mr.

Chair.

I'm asking important questions.

I I need to be prepared.

And you're not giving me enough time to ask questions.

I I come here with a list of questions to ask because they're important.

I need to do my due diligence, but I'm I'm not getting a fair opportunity to ask.

I just wanted to give Councillor Culpepper uh a chance and then we can come back uh uh to you, Councillor Flynn.

Okay, yeah.

Uh and then again, Councillor Fitchell, you're on, but you know, if you're not required to ask uh more questions if you want to raise your hand, Councillor Culpepper, uh three minutes.

Yeah, I just wanted to pick up where Council Flynn left off with regard to the collaboration.

And so if we know that Madison Park may not be completed for seven years, how is the collaboration taking place with uh the John D.

O'Brien and has that collaboration started already?

Um thank you for that question, um, counselor.

The MSBA project for Madison Park is um completely separate than anything that that's going to happen at the O'Brien, like when submitting an application to the MSBA, it needs to be, it has to be for one specific um school and education program.

Um as things are happening or as we were moving the application forward, our team was very in close um communication um with the O'Brien team, and as I shared in terms of like ongoing work um with the O'Brien, our team um is committed, like the district is committed um to continue ongoing maintenance and improvement um to the O'Brien uh to support student learning, like where it's feasible.

I mean, but so Madison Park is going to be completed in 2033, right?

What's gonna happen with the John D.

O'Brien?

And you said they're collaborating.

How does the collaboration move along with the development of what's happening with Madison Park?

Um, so separate from the uh Madison Park project, um, as part of I I know that the mayor and the superintendent has shared commitment um to the um O'Brien uh school community.

Um we do the MSBA process year over year.

Currently, we have three um schools in the pipeline, and we're waiting to hear from the MSBA on a fourth core program.

So year over year, as we're working with our city partners on looking at the capital budget like expenditure.

Um the O'Brien is one of the schools that is a priority for the mayor and the superintendent, and we will be looking for opportunities with the MSB and other partners in the longer term with O'Brien.

I know, but you said you're collaborating with the O'Brien as you're planning Madison Park.

What is the collaboration consists of?

So what's the timetable and what's the plan for Madison for John D.

O'Brien?

So, in terms of um, when I say collaboration in the process, what I mean by that is uh Madison Park and O'Brien share for certain facilities um and uh outdoor space on the campus.

So um the collaboration just means making sure that our team is keeping the O'Brien community updated on all of the work and things that are happening, yeah.

But what about the John D.

O'Brien?

We know that.

Yep, so our team um is uh our team is uh closely updating the um O'Brien community.

I'm sorry.

Um so our team is closely um working and updating the O'Brien on all of the work that we're doing um with the Madison Park community.

I know, but what about the O'Brien?

Tell me something about the O'Brien in terms of planning and possibility.

What what's what's gonna happen with the O'Brien?

Do you see what I'm saying?

So Madison Park is moving right along, right?

2033, they're gonna have a new Madison Park.

What's the plan for the O'Brien?

So at the moment, at the moment, as a district, we have no renovation or new build plan in the pipeline for the O'Brien.

So, what's the collaboration consisting of then?

So when I say collaboration with the O'Brien school community, is bringing the O'Brien school community along because they share facilities with Madison.

Right, making sure that we are bringing them along in the MSBA process.

Um, that Madison Park is currently going through so that they're updated, they're aware of the work that's happening.

I know that's for Madison Park.

So there's nothing, nothing being planned for John O'Brien right now.

Be outside of outside of continuing um working with the school uh leader on continued maintenance and improvement to the current space, there's nothing else happening.

Oh, Councillor Calebra.

We lost you.

Um, Councillor Flynn, did you have uh follow-up questions?

I I did.

Uh I I was focused on the O'Brien in Madison Park.

It doesn't seem to me that the O'Brien is a priority if we don't if we don't have a plan.

Um, yes, we're collaborating and we're we're working together, but there is no plan for the O'Brien.

I want to see a plan that was promised to us several years ago by BPS senior leadership that there would be a plan presented to the city council on the O'Brien School.

But that hasn't happened.

But was there a plan on the O'Brien school and what would happen to it?

Uh Councilor Azure, where the um the mayor and the superintendent put a proposal out um a couple of years ago uh on the O'Brien um at the old um the former West Roxbury um high school complex.

Um the that's something that the community um the O'Brien community was not aligned on, um and that plan was um pulled off the table.

I know that the mayor and the superintendent is um still um is committed to the O'Brien community.

Um and as I shared with the current um constraints in the capital budget, year over year we are uh moving schools in and out of the pipeline with the MSBA um as we're collaborating with the MSBA um and the O'Brien's is one of the schools that the mayor and the superintendent is still committed to, and as we're going through the MSBA process and looking at our capital budget, um the O'Brien will be a part of our future conversations.

I do think it's important to have the O'Brien, the School of Math and Math and Science.

I do believe it's important to have that school in uh predominantly a community of color um neighborhood in Boston.

Um I know that wasn't the plan when the proposal was to move it to to West Roxbury because it was very difficult to get to West Roxbury by by public transportation.

Um but is there a commitment that the the O'Brien is going to stay in a neighborhood um predominantly um a neighborhood of color?

That's that's that I think that's important for us to know that because an exam school such as the O'Brien, they do an exceptional job.

I believe it should stay in it in a neighborhood of color.

Is that is that still the commitment?

Um any and all um recommendation we make make around like location of um the O'Brien in the future will be made um in collaboration with the school community.

And I don't I don't think that happened with the proposal to move the O'Brien to West Roxbury.

I don't I don't know if the school community was involved in that decision.

Maybe they were.

Um I just don't think they were.

But my my point still remains.

Uh are we able to make a commitment that the O'Brien stays um and flourishes in a neighborhood of color in Boston that that needs a an excellent program like the O'Brien?

Are we committed to doing that?

Any future conversations around location, etc.

Um, will be made in collaboration with the school community.

Obviously, there's a lot of learning from the past recommendations.

There was engagement.

However, there's um learnings from like um more engagement and/or how we engage the community, and we'll ensure that that happens um with any future conversations around the O'Brien.

Is do we all agree that there should be a brand new state of the art O'Brien school as well?

Do we uh do we agree on that?

Um I think we can all agree on that and and agree on um I think over 65 um or 60 or 65 schools that was built prior to 1940 across um the district.

I think a number of our schools need um significant um renovations and or new bills across the district.

All of our students across BPS deserve it.

Now now why wouldn't the O'Brien School be part of the application process for the mass school building authority?

Is that something we are considering?

Um that is something that we will consider in the future.

As I shared, we'll do that in collaboration with the city's um budget team, etc.

As we're looking at the future of the capital budget and expenditure with the current projects in this pipeline.

All right, then my final question, Mr.

Chair.

I I don't want to take too much time.

So when when will the when will we have a plan from the city of Boston or the public school system about the long-term plan for the city O'Brien?

When will that be?

Will that be by the end of of this year?

Um, or January of 20 uh or January of next year.

Uh counselor, that's not something that um I I um feel comfortable committing to right now.

That needs to be done in collaboration with a number of our city partners as we're reviewing the current like capital budget expenditure um and the number of projects that we have we currently have in the pipeline.

As I shared earlier, we have way more projects that we than ever had um in the pipeline um for schools across uh the city of Boston.

So we want to make sure that we are doing our due diligence um in collaboration with our city partners.

Okay, but when counselor Flynn.

No, I know I know I would I just want to wrap, I just want to wrap this up here, uh Mr.

Chair.

But when but when there will be a decision on the O'Brien, but prior to that, will there be an engaged engagement with the community, with the school community, with the impacted neighborhoods on the future of the O'Brien?

Will the community be part of that before a decision is formally announced by the mayor or or the school system?

Our our commitment um on is any work that we're future work that we're doing across not just the O'Brien but any school community, we will engage the school community um on all of the steps moving forward.

Thank you.

Okay, yeah.

Thanks, Councillor Flynn.

Uh Counselor Culpepper, uh, if you have uh a follow-up question, again, you know, we've been talking about the O'Brien now for nearly 30 minutes.

Uh this there's it's not the subject of this hearing.

It it obviously tangentially touches on it.

The future of the O'Brien, that could be a separate hearing.

Um if you have any questions about the five million dollars being asked to be appropriate for the feasibility study or either of the two dockets.

That's no, I'm not I'm not you know, I was satisfied in terms of the uh five million dollars.

I'm not that concerned about that.

I've heard quite a bit about that.

I I you know I am concerned about the thinking around the John D.

O'Brien that's now that we've started talking about it, and you know, maybe we should do a separate hearing on it because I think we need to begin thinking about what's gonna happen with the John D.

O'Brien, especially now that Madison Park is in the process, and the process is taking off, and so you don't want to leave John D.

O'Brien there.

Madison Park is gone.

And so I think it might be worth uh scheduling something separate to talk about the future of the John D.

O'Brien if you prefer we not ask any further questions about the O'Brien.

Yeah, I mean, I think I think I think the panelists have answered basically there is not a plan.

Right, right, right.

And so uh they can continue to say that to the extent like we want we want a plan and we we want to preserve the O'Brien, you know, in its current location or you know, whatever.

I I think that is a good subject for another hearing.

I agree.

I agree.

I agree.

And I look forward to it.

Uh with that, I don't have any more questions, Mr.

Chair.

Okay.

Thank you very much.

Uh I just want to thank all the panelists uh for being here.

I do, you know, plan on bringing this up for a vote at the next our next council meeting next week.

Uh um, and if there are any follow-up questions, you know, please ask them through the chair.

I know Councillor Flynn, you had a question about money we've spent on the prior uh sort of consultations around Madison Park.

We'll try to get that as soon as possible.

Um, so um with that said, uh this hearing on Docket Numbers 1311 to 1312 is now adjourned.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Okay, thank you everybody.

Thank you, Ms.

Chair.

Thank you, Councillors.