I will call the Judiciary Committee meeting for August 13th, 2025 to order.

Roll call.

It looks like Commissioner Shays, Commissioners Shay, Thatcher, Callahan, Healy, and Anderson are present.

Commissioner Mainkins is absent.

First item on tonight's agenda, communication number 2025-310.

Matt Enruth, Butte Silverbow County Attorney requesting Council of Commissioners authorization for the County Attorney's Office to draft a new ordinance regulating the sale and distribution of medical and recreational marijuana in Butte Silverbow County.

County Attorney Enroce.

Do any commissioners have any questions?

No.

I would entertain a motion.

I'll make a excuse me.

I'll make a motion to hold communication number 2025-310 in abeyance.

There's a motion and a second to hold communication number 2025-310 in abeyance.

Is there anything on the question?

All those in favor?

Aye.

Aye.

Opposed?

Motion passes.

Item number two, communication number 2025-353.

Lori Baker Patrick, Butte Suburbo Treasurer requesting council of commissioners direct the county attorney to prepare a council resolution to be read upon and passed August 20th, 2025, authorizing the approval of the tax deed public auction and the sale of certain parcels that have been tax deeded and owned by the city county of Butte Silverbow.

County Attorney Ann Ruth.

It will be on the agenda for next week.

Okay, that does make sense.

Okay, so the resolution is to authorize the sale, not to authorize to authorize the purchase, not to authorize the sale.

Correct.

Okay.

It's to finalize everything.

Okay.

Yes.

That makes that makes sense.

And it will be on uh this Friday will be on the agenda for next week.

Okay.

That's actually submitted.

So do so you recommend we hold.

Hold this in advance.

Okay, I would entertain a motion.

I'll make a motion to hold communication number 2025-353 in advance.

There is a motion in a second to hold communication number 2025-353 in abeyance.

Anything on the question.

Aye.

Opposed?

Motion passes.

Item number three, communication number 2025-374.

Trudy Healy, Commissioner District 8 requesting Council of Commissioners to look into concerns regarding urban camping on public streets and refer this matter to the Judiciary Committee and County Attorney Ann Ruth to develop an ordinance to address this matter.

Commissioner Healy.

I just wanted to make sure the primary goal is to create a safer and cleaner environment for all residents, allowing them to utilize parks and public spaces without fear or discomfort.

While this ordinance aims to regulate camping, it is not intended to criminalize homelessness.

The goal is to address specific issues like safety and hazards, sanitation concerns, and the impact on public spaces caused by uncontrolled camping.

And I just wanted to be clear on that.

Thank you very much.

Okay.

My name is Jamie Vanderlynd and I live at 2715 Moulton Street.

And I am here because I'm very thankful for all of you for serving the public.

Thank you very much for doing that.

And also I'm very proud to be from Butte, where we lead with kindness and being a social worker.

And I just wanted to point out also the housing crisis that we're in and how scary it is.

So I'm glad we're here addressing that today because people become unhoused for so many various reasons from intimate partner violence, child abuse, loss of a job, just so many things.

Aging out of foster care, and what tends to happen is when you live on the street in a camper, what have you, you're living in fight or flight constantly.

So it's hard to even say what comes first, mental health or homelessness, because we we don't know when you are living unhoused, you are living in a state where you're in danger constantly.

So I do agree it's a problem, and I do believe it needs to be addressed, and I am excited to have that conversation.

My concern would be that if we if we create um a situation where people have to be all together in one location in an unsafe condition, law enforcement is going to be so busy trying to police that situation, and that's going to be very expensive.

Um, on top of dangerous for people, for families that are living unhoused, and I talk to people that are unhoused all day in my job, and I there's a lot of families that are unhoused, not a lot of very vulnerable people.

So I do agree it's a problem, but I also would ask how do we survive?

Because we create a situation where you have to be you have to be creative in figuring out how to find food.

And I don't know about you guys, but getting a job if I had nowhere to live, nowhere to shower, nowhere to put my things, that's near impossible.

No way to get to my job interview, no way to print my job resume.

Um, and I think we can all agree housing is out of control right now.

The price of milk is out of control right now.

So if I was already in a situation where I was vulnerable, where I was struggling with my mental health where I had nowhere to be, I can't imagine what it would then feel like to feel shunned by my community by the people that I expect care about me and love me.

Um so I really would love to see us do something in our community around prevention because I don't think anyone is really thinking through that yet.

And I know it's expensive.

I do, I know it's expensive, but I also think we can dream big and we can do something to help people that are in crisis, to help people with their mental health and their housing so that they are not in those situations in the first place.

Um I think there's a bigger issue here that's way beyond our control here in Butte because systems are broken and we know it.

They're they're broken all over the place.

But I just want to think through what can we control and what can we do to help people and to do a good thing for our for our community, for all of our community.

Um I think we have the potential to make this bad situation worse.

Um I would encourage you all to talk to law enforcement about that, to talk to Sheriff Lester because I I expect he would agree with that that this could be really dangerous for people, but we also have potential to do something really great in Butte and be proud of something really great that we do that the rest of the state's not doing.

Thank you, Ms.

Vander Linden.

I appreciate it.

Do any of you have any questions or comments for Ms.

Vanderlinen?

I do, Mr.

Callahan.

Go ahead.

I just wanted to thank you for coming tonight.

But you know as well as I do, being in the field you're in.

Butte has an incredible heart.

We spent a lot of money on a homeless shelter.

We spent a ton of money on housing for these people.

And the people that are in need generally end up finding something or have a place to go.

The issue we're having aren't those kind of people.

The issue we're having are people that have serious problems, and they don't want to get fixed.

And they don't want to get fixed.

And we can't turn a blind eye to that either, you know.

And I I totally agree with what you're saying.

But we have to fix that problem, and that's the problem, the reason why we're here tonight.

It isn't the people that don't have a place to go because butte nobody's got a bigger handout than Butte for people like that.

Yeah.

So uh between our homeless shelter, I mean, there's a lot of money donated to that homeless shelter every year.

And our housing authority in those places housed probably a higher percentage of people than any major city in the state.

So we do work very hard at helping those people.

And I hate for you, and I don't think you're doing it intentionally, but I hate when we turn around and say, please don't do something to these people because it's usually drugs, alcohol, both and mental health.

That they're all adds to the other.

And that's the reason why we're here trying to find an ordinance a way to deal with these kind of people.

You know, I just seen on the news the other night, um Bozeman played that.

They said, Well, let's give them 30 days and then they got to move.

They got 240 trailers in compound right now in Bozeman because they got overwhelmed by it.

And it got to be a problem that it was out of control.

And they took that easy path, and the people took advantage of it.

So we got to be careful of that also.

Yeah, I I would say, yes, there's definitely both and right, because um historically, we have continued to allow these things to happen to people, and so then we have a young person who hits hard times and ends up unhoused, and pretty soon we have an elderly person with schizophrenia and an alcohol use disorder who is now living on the streets and creating havoc because we didn't help up front.

So I agree we need to do both and with compassion too.

And I think that's what we're both saying.

It's just we're saying it in different words.

So, yeah, I absolutely agree.

We need to do something to prevent this problem from happening in the first place.

But my concern is like the person that has schizophrenia and an alcohol use disorder and has been on house for 30 plus years.

That that person was once the 18-year-old person, and if we dehumanize that person more, they're gonna continue that behavior because they feel like they're not human anymore, and that we have put them in that position.

And I've talked to a lot of people that when I talk to them on their level and see them as people, um, they express that.

Like they they want to be seen as a human.

And so I think it's a fine balance of like I think you're talking kind of enabling, right?

Like we don't want to enable people.

And also our rescue mission is overrun.

So thank you for continuing to help fund them because they need it.

So does Action Inc.

And so do all of these places trying to reach out and help.

Yeah, Commissioner Healy.

So I am reaching out in the community for people to speak on both sides because I believe there has to be balance.

So be rest assured, I'm gonna be.

So I am going to be bringing and then people who think where can we help with the if it's a serious like bender where we have to try to cut somebody off in order for to get them help.

So no, that this is not going to be a fast process.

That I and I'm not like I said, uh, this is not about criminalizing homelessness.

This is about protecting the community.

This is about making it safe and healthy.

Right now, the walking trail along um there's a lot of complaints.

Black tail creek.

People are using that to do their dishes as their toilet.

Um there's complaints of smelling feces while they're walking on the trail.

There's encampments with garbage everywhere.

That's what we're aiming to clean up.

We are not trying to criminalize homelessness and dehumanize anybody.

The goal here is to find a balance between a citizen who's trying to enjoy their home and can't even go out in the front yard.

And you talked about the police, and I will have these men come and speak from Emma Park.

After the last meeting, he sent me a photograph of two transients fighting in the park, and it took five police cars.

So that's not saving money either.

Where five police have to go deal with transient fighting in the park at 7 30 in the morning.

So I'm we're speaking on safety and health.

Yeah.

Yeah, I agree.

I I want those things addressed.

Absolutely.

So thank you for thank you for saying that.

I ride my bike down the walking path every Sunday.

I love it.

And I think it would be amazing if, like, as a county, we did something like had bathrooms and sinks and laundry where people could come in and do that because yeah, they probably don't want to wash their clothes and their dishes in the creek either.

I wouldn't.

Thank you.

Um I think that well, Commissioner Thatcher speak.

Thank you, Chairwoman Shea.

I just I struggle with this conversation a little bit because I feel like Commissioner Healy, in one breath, you're saying that you're not criminalizing homelessness, but in the next breath, it's criminals and these people that are I guess that have prompted you to start this discussion, which I understand.

Um but firstly, I just think that every single one of us sitting around this table should be very grateful that we aren't in a position that we understand what these people are going through, and that instead of turning it in a negative direction like other communities around us have done, maybe as she has stated, we present different opportunities as a counts as a county, a more positive spin on it.

Put more bathrooms somewhere, do something else instead of instead of having them so but but I guess my point is is like I I'm not sure which direction an ordinance would go.

I mean, there's things on the books already that hey, you call the police if this happens, or hey, if somebody is using the restroom in the cricket, there are things that's against the law.

There are things that you know that that already applies to.

So I guess I'm not sure what direction an ordinance uh or which direction you're thinking that you want to go on this.

Thank you, Commissioner Thatcher.

That's um kind of where I was I wanted to go with this.

Um I listen I went back and I listened to the last judiciary meeting, and what I took away from it was we're not talking about these homeless people.

We're talking about these homeless people.

And I think any time we in our positions separate people into categories and classifications, we forget that we all enjoy the same rights, and so I would love to find a balance there too.

I like what other cities are doing in that positive realm where they are putting up, you know, maybe they have a bus that has washing machines, showers, um, places that people can get to, and not only that, but helping people break down the barriers that prevent them from even accessing those kind of resources.

And so I do sympathize with people who who are affected by um someone who is committing a crime, but let's let's be clear that the large majority of crimes are committed by people who have houses or are housed and may have access to resources.

Um mental health doesn't equate with violent crime all the time.

Yes, there are people who have mental health issues that commit crimes.

Um we I believe ground level is where we need to start focusing some energy.

Um that's not going to solve the problem for probably a generation.

I understand that.

Um but I think we treat people who commit crimes like using the laws that we have and allowing people to have their due process because they are entitled to that under the Constitution.

And so I really want us to remember our humanity and remember that there but for the grace of God go we.

And I don't know very many people who aren't one paycheck away from being homeless right now.

And um being in such a position that you are fighting for survival and what that does to your nervous system and what kinds of things that makes you do.

We have to find a way to be humane, and we have to find a way to enforce not only what we have existing, but we need to think about what does enforcement look like toward a vulnerable group of people.

Commissioner Callahan.

Thank you, Chairman Shea.

I just like to respond to that because I remember about four years ago, five years ago, we had many people in your neighborhood and in your district that was having drug houses, and I heard that same speech.

Here we are four, five years later.

We're still having the same kind of issues.

So I totally agree, we gotta do it the proper way.

But turn around and keep making excuses why we gotta do a better thing and then not following through with it isn't gonna solve the problem either.

Like I said, I I remember back when you and I were in Mr.

Gallagher's office together, and you flat out told the people we already have laws, and it went nowhere from there.

We can't do that again tonight.

These people want answers.

Our community needs answers, and that's what our job is here.

Thank you, Commissioner Callahan.

Um I will um I'm happy to let you know that they did follow the laws in that instance, and that problem was taken care of, Commissioner Healy.

Um, first of all, to address um Commissioner Thatcher, this isn't wasn't my ordinance per se.

Um the citizens from the Emma Park came to me and asked me for their help, and as a commissioner, that is my job.

So it is not my ordinance, and that's what I want to take away from that.

They needed help because their lives are getting threatened.

Their lives are being affected, and not by a homeless person who who utilizes what has to offer, but the people who choose to live that way.

And there's people and the mental health people that I'm gonna have speak will tell you that.

You can give a willy the tattooed face guys an apartment, he destroyed it.

They fix it, he destroyed it again.

He he prefers to live on the street.

You cannot save people who do not want to be saved.

So this is about this is about the citizens of wanting to live a safe and healthy life.

Why do they not get the choice to live a safe and healthy life?

Thank you, Commissioner Healy.

Thank you, Madam Cheshire.

Um, Commissioner Healy, I was only referring to because it was your communication you introduced it.

That's all I was saying.

Um I don't disagree.

Uh I I am fully understand where everybody's coming from, but again, Commissioner Healy, you did just again separate certain homeless people from certain homeless people, and like Commissioner Shea said, that isn't something that we should be doing.

I mean, we need to address the overall issue for every homeless person, not just the ones you don't like.

And so, or the ones that the community doesn't like, you know.

I don't I think that that's wrong.

I think that we're taking a terrible stance on that.

And like I'm with Commissioner Callahan, like there is there are things that we that we can be doing for sure, but grossly identifying people and speaking them, speaking about them in certain ways, I think is wildly inappropriate.

And you know, I just you know that's that's where I'm gonna leave that one for tonight.

Thank you.

Thank you, Commissioner Thatcher Thatcher, Commissioner Anderson.

Actually, I believe that Commissioner Healy is separating him, and I think that we should separate them.

There are some people who deliberately, deliberately do not want to be a part of society.

They dislike society for whatever reason they want to disrupt it.

They want to cause pain and suffering.

They're bad individuals.

Because you're homeless doesn't mean you're a bad individual.

Because you're a bad individual doesn't mean you're homeless.

There are some homeless people who are very kind and very much want help to get out of that situation and don't know where to go, and it's great that there's programs for these people.

There are other people who make the choice, a deliberate choice, to get up in the morning to get drunk, to put a needle in their arm, to just cause trouble, to mess with people, to throw things, to push elderly people walking down the street for whatever reason.

I don't know why they do what they do.

Is it because they have mental health problems?

I'm sure that's part of it.

Is it because they're abusing many substances?

I'm sure that's part of it.

But we cannot look at everybody and treat them equal.

We need to look at them and what they're doing and find a way to separate them and help who we can and do something with those who do not want the help and force them into a situation where they cannot be a detriment to society.

Everybody has rights and privileges afforded to them.

The people who own the houses in the neighborhood have rights and privileges.

The people who are staying in a camp or in the neighborhood, yes, they have rights and privileges too.

But there's certain areas where society has defined where your rights stop.

And once you are causing a problem for the majority of the community, your rights stop at that point.

You cease to have them.

And when people are making those determinations for no other reasons than they want to cause trouble and to be a pain to society, then we need to stop them.

And does that mean we're separating certain people?

Yes, it does.

And we should not be afraid of doing that.

That is our job to make the hard decisions.

We need to look at what's best for the majority of the people of Silverbow County.

That's what we're here for.

And that says that if you do X, Y, or Z, we're gonna put you away.

We're gonna put you in jail, we're gonna put you in prison.

You know, if I decide to take a shotgun and go blow some people up in a bar, there's gonna be hundreds of people looking for me for a week until I'm apprehended.

Is it okay that he did it because he's mentally ill or something?

No, we we persecute him anyway.

We find him the help he needs if that's what we need to do.

But we need to hold people accountable for their action.

Not because of their circumstances, but because of their action.

And when certain people make certain actions, we need to hold them accountable regardless.

And if this does that, then I'm all for it, and it's about time this body does it.

Amen.

Thank you, Commissioner Anderson.

Um I just have a question, and I'll pose it to either you or to Commissioner Healy.

How do you envision enforcing determining intent of somebody?

How do you decide if somebody is if somebody is complaining about someone at Emma Park?

Who goes in and makes the decision that that person is causing trouble deliberately, or if they're causing trouble, trouble, whatever that may be, because they are victims of whatever their circumstances are.

What I'm hearing is, and and you made some great points, and there's a lot of that I agree with, and some of it that I don't agree with.

Um how do you do that?

How do you say, well, you have all of these problems, so you must be doing it on purpose.

And for that, we are going to consider you a criminal.

I'll be happy to take that.

Okay, so I worked at the hospital doing security for about five years before my health precluded me from doing that any longer without using names or anything.

We had some individuals who were frequently there.

We found them places to stay.

They found an apartment for these people.

They put them in the apartment, they've destroyed the apartment.

That put them in another apartment, they destroy the apartment.

They'd be back on the street for six months.

Then they'd find another place for them to stay.

They would destroy it.

That'd send them up in the hospital for a few months.

They would attack the nurses, they would spit on them, they would hit them, they would verbally threaten them, they would throw things at them.

They constantly anti-social behavior.

At some point, we need to say that, hey, you know what?

I'm sorry, you no longer belong in society.

I don't know how you make that determination, but it's something that we have to do.

We do it for numerous reasons.

We do it once people sexually assault children.

We do it when people sexually assault adults.

We do it when people rob people, we do it when people commit any other crimes.

So there's plenty of guidelines on how we do it.

I think that what we do is we give them all the help they need.

If they keep on refusing help, they cannot live in society as a functioning member.

It's not humanizing, let them live on the street.

It's not humanizing somebody to say, you know what, here's a blanket.

I know it's 40 degrees below zero for the next couple weeks, but here's an extra blanket and a warm cup of soup.

That's not humanizing somebody.

That's intentionally making them suffer when we should be doing something different to help them, whether it's institutionalizing them or whatever else is something that we need to look at.

Okay, we're up against time, so we'll have to reconvene after the meeting.

Um so judiciary, stick around.

We'll meet after.