Okay, I'll call the meeting of August 25th study commission to order, please.

Can we have roll call?

Lori Casey?

Cindy Purdue Dolan is excused.

Ben D Ben Thielen.

Matt Steffen.

Um Raylan Brandle.

Present.

Dan Denehy.

Chad Selk.

Excused.

Cindy Shaw here.

And Mary McCormack.

Excuse me.

Thank you.

Can we have our Pledge of Allegiance and Prayer, please?

And to the Republic for which it stands.

Okay.

First up, public comment on any item on the agenda.

All right, Bon Rogue, 2601 Grand Avenue.

Reference, probably comments on items on the agenda.

The subject conversation at the Melrose listening session.

Item nine point eight.

Well, I witnessed this conversation between a resident of Melrose and the Council of Commissioner, Commissioner.

With this body.

First a bit of background.

As you are all aware, in the 1970s, when the underground mines were closing on the hill.

The city of Butte was in dire financial status.

Thus it was proposed to form a city and county collective government.

So the revenue from the Pip mine that was and is in the county would come to the city county government.

But what we have is the city government imposing its regulations on the county and not providing adequate services and community and services.

The res the resident basically asked the commissioner, what can we do about it?

The commissioner basically replied, get equal representation.

To which the resident replied, or separate from the city-county government.

To which the commissioner replied, we can't do this.

To which the resident replied, yes, we can.

And I will go to the state of Montana.

To which I will add an organize a plebiscite vote of only the voters in the contested territory.

So during your discussion on 9A1, I have a few questions for you.

So may I suggest that you determine.

Should there be six commissioner districts?

Three from the city divided by city population, and three from the county divided by county population.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

Banderob.

Any other public comment on any item on the agenda?

We didn't uh since there's no other uh live person or in person to provide public comment, we did receive uh written public comment from Mr.

Ken Neighbor.

He's uh offered us several pages regarding his recommendations uh for different things that he heard at the open house session at Butte Brewing this last week.

And so I would like to go ahead and have copies made for each commissioner and then um Ms.

Conn, if you could please note and place on file his comments.

Um I don't want to read them tonight because they are lengthy, but we will post them with our agenda and minutes on the website.

Um is there any questions or any difficulties with that strategy?

Okay, all right.

So I'll make sure that you get these and get copies to everyone, and then also please uh post on our website.

All right, public comment on anything not on the agenda but within the jurisdiction of the study commission.

Okay, excellent.

So moving on to our approval of minutes.

Um we have the meetings that were held on July 28th and August 4th to be approved, and then I would like to place on file that there were no minutes for the July 14th, and please also post that with our agendas, um, Ms.

Conn.

So if I could have an approval for July 28th and August 4th, Ms.

Casey.

Madam Chair, I would like to have a correction to the eight four minute minutes under 6A, where it said Casey felt there should not be any minutes for the July 14th meeting.

I would just like to add, because we did not have a meeting held.

Uh to me reading does mean that's it made it sound like I was trying to obstruct the minutes from being uh posted.

So I'd like to just have the reason why I suggested that added, please.

Did you get that?

Okay.

Any other um concerns, Ms.

Shaw?

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Uh there are several mistakes on here, just typos, and uh so I I think I'll just hand I I made uh highlighted those and I'm just gonna give a copy to Kim.

Which week both weeks.

I'm sorry, August 4th.

August 4th.

So it I would uh move to approve this with the consideration that these be corrected.

Okay.

And also with Ms.

Casey's change.

Yep correct.

Okay.

So our motion is to approve the minutes with Ms.

Casey's change and the grammatical errors that Ms.

Shaw has offered.

So moved.

Is there a second Mr.

Dunny he seconded Kim?

All in favor?

Aye.

Aye.

Any opposed thank you for that approval.

Okay our next um item is our presentation by Debbie Todd about the pros and cons of having a manager form of government.

Thank you Ms.

Todd for coming tonight we appreciate you taking some time.

Well thank you for inviting me.

When Bob asked me if I would be willing to come speak to you I got really excited because I love city government I'm from Oklahoma.

I've lived in Butte the last 17 years.

My husband's from a farm in central Montana we met in Oklahoma while he was working at a Phillips petroleum company and we married and when we had the opportunity to move here we we jumped on it.

Okay.

Bartlessville is a about the same size as Buttes just under 3800 I tried to find out at what point our city went to a council manager type of of government I couldn't find anything of course all the people who would know that were dead um the way the city government is in Bartlesville is set up and that's the only experience I have with council manager form of government we hired we on the council we had five members and each ward or e Bartlesville pardon meal was um the home of Phillips Petroleum Company it that's where the international headquarters for Phillips was before they merged the conical and moved to Houston it was a very wealthy city I mean there was serious money in that town and you saw more white shirts than you would ever see blue shirts um it was a responsibility of the city council to make sure that the work was getting done that had been uh approved and city manager is to oversee the uh accordance city manager or I'm sorry city ordinances and government policies he would um bring I really loved this every Friday night after five when the people got off they would bring us uh a large manila envelope and in it was the agenda the minutes from the previous meeting and then anything that the city manager thought that we needed to have you know factual information to have beforehand um city was divided into five wards each ward elected its own commissioner or council member um and then the five council members select the mayor and vice mayor among themselves it is not a separate office that the people uh at large voted on um we had a very similar uh whatever you want to call it up there and it was the five council members the city attorney the city manager and the secretary um it's easier to find good city managers these days than it used to be because most of them are coming out of college with an advanced degree in um oh what uh public administration can't follow my notes um the reason that we did not want a a mayor as a separate office is we didn't want one person who would have more power if you will than the other elected officials uh at one I don't I know at one time uh I I don't no I take it back I don't think the commission county commissioners and the city man commissioners were ever part of one group like you all are um we met every Monday night we got paid five dollars a meeting maximum twenty dollars a month that was done so that there would not be people um getting trying to get elected when they didn't have any experience or knowledge education about whatever was going on in the city um

Um we met every Monday night.

We got paid five dollars a meeting, maximum twenty dollars a month.

That was done so that there would not be people getting trying to get elected when they didn't have any experience or knowledge, education about whatever was going on in the city.

Um the mayor does not have any glorified duties except ribbon cuttings and speaking to clubs, especially if when we had a bond issue.

I got to where I didn't even take my speech with me anymore because I didn't need it.

I knew it all.

And um the mayor votes, has an equal vote, just like the city can the other council members do.

And it's it's the pleasure and joy of the mayor to get to break the tie.

That's not always easy, and it's certainly not pleasant, because you got two people that feel one way, and council members and two council members that feel this way, and you've got to go out on a limb and say, okay, I'm going this way.

I can't say that I ever felt like other council members were angry or held it against me that I didn't always vote with what they thought was best.

Uh the constituency, well, sometimes I'd be at Walmart or the grocery store, or people would come up and say, why didn't you do this or this or that?

Well, um, we looked at it seriously, and it just wasn't appropriate for our city.

As far as disadvantages are concerned, I quite honestly cannot.

I I I just don't think there are any.

With a smaller council, separated from the county, the five council members could really focus on the city and what's important and what needs to be done and how it needs to be done.

Um it's really incumbent that each council member knows and remembers that we who serve in the government are our servants, public servants.

That means it's our responsibility to take care of the people that we represent.

Uh when you have that form of government, the city manager focuses on the daily running of the city, making sure that the ordinances that are passed are being carried out, making sure that everything is all the committees are meeting, you know, when they met, please pay attention to open meeting act and open records act because there have been cities get into really big trouble by managing to have um meetings without a quorum, but uh and it's the responsibility of the council members to represent those people to educate himself himself or herself about what the issues are.

Um you can get a real varied group serving on the city council.

Um they don't want the mayor to be an elected elected by the city as a whole.

Um they did not want one person who would have the power to hire and fire and direct people.

Um we had budget meetings.

When we had budget meetings in June, we would go multiple nights, and we did not get paid for it.

And we went multiple nights because I told the city manager, and by the way, I was mayor, I was from 1987 to 91, I was on the council, and from 1989, 89 to 91, I was mayor.

And um I re I asked the city manager to have each department head present in our workshops so that we could better understand their budget, the reasoning that they had for asking for whatever money.

It was the first time that had ever been done.

And I can't tell you how many city or how many uh department heads came up to me whenever they would see me and say, thank you, thank you.

Um you will find sometimes in this forum issues about which, as I said, the citizens are divided.

I remember the first time that we had a somewhat controversial ordinance being proposed by one of the council members, and that was that he did not want to see any pornographic magazines sold in the in the city.

Well, first of all, we couldn't take, we could not mandate that they take them outside the city limits to sell them.

The state has a law that provides for these types of materials.

If they're in Quick Trip or 7 Eleven, whatever, that they have him either back on the on a shelf where people would say, Can I find Ba?

and they'd buy it.

But or if they sat out in front in like a uh display case, they had to have a plain cover so that no one saw the pictures on whatever was on the front.

Um I knew this one was going to be really important and um rough.

So got to City Hall, we got ready to start, and our city hall was a church that we bought.

And so the council chambers were in the in the sanctuary, and the room was full.

It held about 300 people, and it was full, and there were people standing in the back.

And I thought, how am I going to keep these people in control?

So what I did, I read them the Riot Act.

I said, anybody, anyone, all of you have the opportunity to speak if we're here until 6 o'clock tomorrow.

But anyone who's rude or belligerent or yells or calls people names, you will be escorted out by a plain clothes officer.

And I did have plain clothes officers present at that meeting.

Um that the council members can't go tell the department heads or the city employees.

Let's say I've got a pothole in front of my house.

I can't go up to one of those guys and say, I need my pothole fixed today, please.

You employees, city employees are hands off.

You listen to them, sometimes they'll bring their concerns to you, but you have to remember that you have no responsibility or right over those people.

That's the city manager's job.

Um EPA tells you to do something, please do it.

We were under um a mandate by EPA that we clean up our inflow infiltration system, make it operate better, and we needed to do some work on our city sewer lines.

They gave us a date.

You have to be done by this date.

I thought, wow, that's a lot.

And the gentleman who represented our area, he was actually out of an office in Atlanta, and he said, Debbie, make sure that you do this, because if you don't, EPA will find your city $10,000 per day per violation.

He said EPA has has bankrupted towns.

So make sure that make sure that I don't know if you ever have if you guys ever have to deal with EPA or not, but your council might have to.

And that requires a calm demeanor, affirming uh uh explanation about what's going on and how we are going to raise the money to do that, the fixtures on our systems that we needed.

Trying to think anything else.

You know, basically that's about it.

I would if you have any questions, I'd be more than happy to answer them.

Thank you for sharing your first hand experience with working with the city manager.

We appreciate that.

Yeah.

Um council members, do you have any questions for Ms.

Todd?

Mr.

Thielen.

Madam Chair, thank you.

Ms.

Dodd, thank you for being here.

So if I if I'm correct in hearing you, you're saying that a city manager is definitely better than a voted-in chief executive.

Is that correct?

Yes, I do.

I believe that.

Thank you.

Mr.

Mr.

Steppen.

Thank you, and thanks for uh coming and joining us today.

Can you tell me, is it Bartlesville?

Is that right?

Yes.

Can you tell me the what was the population of Barnesville?

It's just under 38,000.

So very similar to the very similar to Butte, yes.

Thank you.

Mr.

Denny, he I thought he had his hand up.

Hi, Ms.

Todd, how are you?

Fine, thank you.

How are you?

Thanks for coming.

Were you uh elected by districts or by or were you uh citywide?

No, we had wards.

There were five wards.

The constituents of each ward elected their representative.

And then the five got together and selected mayor and vice mayor.

Mr.

Dednehy?

Ms.

Todd, can you recall what was the contract for city manager back when you were on the city council?

Oh gosh.

Boy, that's a long ways off.

Um everyone that we interviewed, one month after I took office, not as mayor, but on the city council, the city manager came and said, Deb, I'm going to Peoria, Illinois.

So we were thrown right into looking for and finding a city manager.

And we went through a company.

Uh the guy's name was Paul Raume.

Paul looked around this the city the nation, looked for city managers that might fit well in Bartlesville, gave the list to the city council, and we selected which people we wanted to have interviewed.

We spent two days interviewing people.

Um this is gonna happen to there might be somebody unhappy about the fact that you hired that city manager because I didn't like the city manager we hired.

I did not think he had the best interest of people in mind.

I thought he was there to schmooze and hang out and go play golf with the big wigs and forget about the people on the west side of the tracks.

Um that that's not kosher, not with me.

I had a guy call me, and it wasn't even in my ward, and he told me about a problem that um his neighbor had.

House was empty.

I mean, this was in a nice established neighborhood.

The house was empty, wasn't for sale yet, but it was empty, but they had thrown trash and garbage and junk.

The the back door was kind of recessed a bit into the house.

So in front of that door, his all this junk, and it was and I don't know if you know what Johnson Grass is or not, but Johnson Grass was taller than the the edge of the roof in the whole yard.

And so um, you know, it was it, I mean, there were a lot of kids in that neighborhood, and there's always a risk of rats or mice or snakes, you know, burrowing in there and hurting someone potentially.

So I took the city manager.

Well, now, first of all, I took the four council members one by one.

We went out, I showed them the problem.

They said, ooh, that's this is not good.

No, it's not.

Then I took the city manager out, and he says, Oh, well, I don't understand why the city uh engineer didn't didn't instruct his staff to have that done, have it taken care of.

And I said, Well, uh, let me tell you what Mr.

Koontz, the city planner, said to Mr.

Green, who was the man that called me.

He said, Well, we're not gonna do anything.

If you don't like it, sue us.

Who cares?

So we had long conversations in the city council meeting with him at an executive session about how we expected our department heads to respond to the community.

You know, every town has its people who just really thrive on division, dividing people and working people up.

Ours was Anthony Andrews, and he hated Bartlesville City government.

He hated every Bartlesville city government.

And on my very last night, um, when I got to the point where we always had our public input blast.

And he got up and he started now in 86, the town was divided in half by a flood.

The soccer fields were under 20 feet of water.

It literally divided the people in half.

I know the city manager said he had to take this really long circuitous path to get to the city to you know to work.

Um so Anthony Andrews, we we had built a new bridge uh over the river on the south north side of town.

And he decided that that was what caused the flood of 86, was we built that bridge.

He discounted the fact that up north in Nebraska and Iowa there were severe rains that spring, and it was all headed towards us.

And it had nothing to do with the ridge, it had to do with the rain and the rain we were gonna get and what was coming down in the river.

And let me tell you it was a lot.

So he that was just one issue that he griped about.

And Cindy knows me.

She knows I'm not above being rather naughty.

So Anthony Andrews was Ms.

Char, you had a question.

Oh, I was I I didn't mean to interrupt you, Debbie.

I was gonna I was gonna ask a question.

Okay.

Um go ahead.

Oh, he was just droning on and on and on.

And there were only about six people in the c in the auditorium because it was a workshop night.

We Mondays and Wednesday Mondays, first and third Mondays were formal business meetings where we met in the sanctuary.

The second and fourth two Mondays of the month were workshops.

And we usually just met in the in one of the conference rooms.

But I had heard so much from Anthony Andrews, the four years I was there.

I stuck my tongue out at him.

He didn't see it, that's okay.

Um what's your question, Cindy?

Thank you, madam chair.

Hey Deb, good to see you.

We we've often she belongs to the exchange club, and we've often talked about being the first woman to do this or that in the in our county in our community or in our government.

Um you were the first mayor, I think, female mayor there, if I recall, you told me that.

So my question getting back to the form of government of the city manager.

Um the form of government at the description of it by the state of Montana would be in Montana, is that the council of commissioners would hire or and or fire, you know, the city manager.

And that had its pros and cons, but mainly, you know, it would be an accountability boost, I would hope, you know, knowing that you you just aren't there being elected.

But um, did you ever find that uh city manager would be using that just to it uh as a stepping stone to get to another level of something?

And that that's been a I've had people ask me about that, whether or not what that might be a motivation.

You want to make sure that you get a good guy, you want to keep him.

So yeah.

Um city managers are kind of like preachers, they move on, and you gotta find a new one.

Um the man that was city manager when I was elected to the council uh was very involved in the community.

He spent his lunch hour every day, packed a lunch, and he spent his lunch hour driving around town, stopping and talking to the workers, see how the work was progressing on whatever they were doing, uh, looking for other problems that needed to be addressed.

He was very, very good about that.

The one that we hired, the one I didn't want to hire, um, just wanted to be a big duck in the puddle.

And I I mean, I did not he he was of what I would call the old school.

He said uh dang, I thought I lost my thought.

Sorry about that.

So Ms.

Todd, would it be fair to say that there's a mix like you've had people that stayed in the position, but then you've had people that kind of use it as that stepping stone?

Yes.

Okay.

And after Mr.

Metzinger retired, um they had at least two city managers that I knew, and they were excellent city managers.

I considered Tom McAllucky an excellent city manager, although he could be abrasive, you know, you had to overlook his attitude sometimes or develop an attitude for him.

Um but yeah.

Yeah.

Yes.

Thanks, Deb.

So uh I'm thinking of wages, you know, and that it it could be uh tipping point for hiring a manager as opposed to a chief executive that's been elected.

Um did you find that uh people balked in any way in because usually the city manager wants a higher you know wage just because their experience and everything else that would go along with it.

But did you find any any kind of uh sense that people would balk over paying for what you get, so to speak?

I'm just I'm sorry, would you I paying for what you get?

I mean, did you find any any kind of a sense of people balking for mainly just based on the in the wages that would be required?

No, in fact, three of the people that we interviewed were city managers in towns smaller than Bartlesville.

So, yeah, city managers do move on, but you know, if you get a good one, they're not gonna just get the glory for what all they do and then move on to someplace else.

And the two men that was elected after Bob Metzinger stayed there until they retired.

So that worked out for us really well.

And they were appointed, not elected.

Your city managers.

Yes, we appointed the city manager.

The council had the right to hire and fire.

Okay, thanks.

Further follow-up questions.

Anybody else?

Well, thank you for coming up and sharing your experience with us.

That's helpful to hear firsthand.

So we appreciate your time with us today.

Well, as I was thinking about what I wanted to say, it was like, gosh, that's still so long ago, I forget stuff.

But I I loved the form of government.

It just gave us clarity about who was responsible for what.

And that also helped us when we were in the community.

And people were at, you know, asking why are you doing this or when are you doing that?

Um the fact that we were, you know, our responsibilities were very well defined, both for the council and for the city manager.

Um Bartlesville, even though it's about the size of Butte, as I said, it's a very wealthy city, so we usually pay the city manager pretty well.

Um none of them that I was familiar with ever asked for hire more money or anything.

They just did their job.

Uh-huh.

Thank you.

Okay.

So uh Ms.

Cone, moving on to item eight, correspondence under study commission update.

Uh yeah, no correspondence.

But uh just wanted to give you all a rundown of um what it how much money I've been spending the last couple of weeks.

It's just been a whole lot.

So a lot of my time was spent kind of reconciling everything with the auditor, and that's all done, and it's on the approval desk.

So we spent um so far uh for these open houses and listening sessions, 1,763 and probably a few cents in there.

I just wrote down the big number.

And that covered um like room rental at brewing, uh food and refreshments, pizza sodas, non-alcoholic uh drinks, plates napkins, the printing of the postcards, the brochures, survey, the the big posters and everything, and advertising in um the newspaper.

So I just wanted to give you all an accounting of that.

Thank you.

Much appreciated.

Questions from commissioners?

Okay.

All right, moving on to our unfinished business, the public outreach discussion.

So, with regard to overview of the open houses, I would just like to open the floor for uh reflections and thoughts and things that we heard about, things we want to uh make sure we bring to the top of the pile, if you will.

Um so if we can just go ahead and open up the discussion.

Ms.

Casey.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

On the comments and things that were at the ishauna compiling those?

Like we'll get a total list maybe at the end of our open houses, or is somebody somebody compiling those?

Correct.

So um Shauna or Shanna is uh compiling those for us, and she will um present them as one packet when we're finished with open houses.

Um she wasn't able to be here tonight due to her travel schedule.

She noted that for us um a couple weeks ago.

So at any rate, hopefully we'll have a document from her.

Maybe we can ask for something interim.

I I know she's been getting everything ready, though.

Yeah.

Other thoughts?

Mr.

Steppen.

Um the two listening sessions being in two very different parts of our uh constituency, uh, you know, uh at least in the conversations that I had.

I heard some varying degrees of um opinions or rather what each group felt was was important to this conversation out of Melrose, I heard from the residents there uh a lot of questions about what they're being taxed for and the services they receive and visibility of local government in their area.

Whereas uh at brewing, it was much less of that and more of the the topics that we've been seeing as the main topics from our local government and and elected officials, that being this uh relevant to this conversation, our executive branch form of government, our commissioners, and um and at both opinions on uh the fire issue is what was the feedback that I'd gotten.

Mr.

Dennis.

Um echoing what Matt has said, I have the same sort of opinions in Millrose.

It's it's about what uh what they're getting for their tax dollar and some uh uh services that in their minds are not there or have been neglected or have not been done correctly at uh in town in the Butte Brewery, exactly the same.

They talked about city man city county managers form of government, they talked about uh the executive and legislative branch quite a bit.

They talked about neighborhood uh meetings and uh councils and how that would work, uh what the process would be, which I I had to say we haven't really formally done that yet, uh the process, but they were very interested in those sorts of things.

Um having a neighborhood council.

Um so yeah, I I would agree uh similar to what Matt has said that the two different parts of the counties, and um uh there uh the people who were there in town at the brewery were very much aware of some of the things that we have been discussing during our deliberations and our learning about local government, and so that's what most of the comments were.

Other thoughts, Ms.

Casey?

Uh we received an email, I think, from uh Commissioner Dolan that after the Melrose meeting, uh folks felt like there should be a presentation kind of first.

Did you I wasn't able to attend the the Butte Brewery one?

Do you think that we need to change ours or did it work better?

We're maybe a little more prepared at the brewery.

How how did the folks that uh were at that think that way?

Uh so I received the same feedback at Melrose.

Like we need to introduce ourselves, break the ice, kind of give people an agenda of the things that they should be doing at the meeting that how it how it goes.

And so we did that when we went to Butte Brewing.

We gave a brief overview of what we were there for, um, pointed out the various posters that people could walk around and how to give comment, and then that we were all available.

And then the setting of the room lended itself nicely because we had round tables that we each kind of rotated through to go visit with folks.

Um and I felt like the second meeting went much better in terms of here's the call to action, folks.

Here's how to participate.

And um I would take any feedback from the other commissioners who were there in terms of how those two meetings felt Mr.

Thielen Madam Chair.

Uh we were talking about that before the meeting started.

I was unable to attend that meeting, but it would seem that we need to be able to figure out a way to get more of the constituents, more of the public involved in these meetings that we're having.

So I don't know how else to go about it.

I've looked at uh read the paper every day.

I've only seen those maybe three times in the paper about these public meetings.

So I don't know if we can uh email everybody in the county, do surveys or let somebody know some way how that was Lori's idea with all the emails, so I mean uh maybe party line more than once a month.

Uh you know, once a once every two weeks would be great.

We just got to get more more people involved, more people have to be able to see where we're doing this to be able to come and see us.

Ms.

Shaw.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

I echo everything that's been said so far.

I did go to both meetings.

I thought Melrose was very small and kind of intimate group, which was fine.

I think we and I first of all, we can't have too many of us study commissioners at these meetings.

I mean, we the one in the Butte Brewery was one on one, which is I liked a lot because we had the round tables.

We could just literally hand take someone by the hand and show them through all the all the uh um poster words we had that the steps to follow were very well done, I thought, very simple to follow.

But then to sit down and be able to chat with some people don't want other people to hear what they're saying, I'm sure, you know, it's uh I thought that worked out really well.

Um, but we had uh most of us there, and it was great having.

I don't think we had any too many of us there.

I like the introduction part, but to answer Ben, I was on commit council for 16 years, and you try to get people to come to meetings.

This is the biggest group I've ever seen.

Uh you know, with a study commission.

It it oh yeah.

It's it's a tough one.

And we're I think Shanna's using all the media that she can really muster up, and it just you know, I I don't know how to answer that.

And a lot of folks that they rather not speak their mind out in the open, which I understand that to a point, you know, the it's a small town and everything like that.

But yeah, I think just keep on keeping on, and you know, the next meeting is the EOC and hopefully we'll have an even bigger crowd.

Thanks.

I'll take first, please.

And then Mr.

Dunhey.

Um Madam Chair, thank you.

Uh and and I agree with that, but I also think you know these people don't want to speak publicly.

I like Laurie's idea about a mass email to all the county employees.

Let them answer it anonymously.

Not everybody is as boisterous as some of us, as it were.

Madam Chair, just to follow up, I was wondering if we could push the survey out that way.

I think so.

And even to maybe even other large private uh businesses that have a lot of employees.

I don't know if that would be available to us.

Uh we talked with Matt, maybe even Montana Tech, just to push even the survey out further to maybe get more responses that way.

Um I believe that's Shanna's strategy, and then she's started with a couple of email lists that were immediately available to her.

I think adding the county employees, and then certainly Mr.

Steppen and I can ask for it to go out on text, um, all employees, all staff.

Ms.

Conn.

Uh I know before she put it out to the public, um, I don't know if she sent it to you to as as to test it.

She sent it to me and said, would you test this, make sure the link works and everything?

And um, and then she said, yeah, share it with the library staff.

And I think all of all of my colleagues answered it and and said, Yeah, it worked great, everything.

So I I think that's what Shanna's also doing.

She's sending it out to the county, she's send it out to um the BLDC, email connections, things like that.

So um so I think she's she's trying lead a horse to water.

Ma'am chair, I uh just thank you for the Bew Brewery.

I think the introduction we had before the meeting started, putting out the poster boards around the room, uh having people read those before we sat down, have people go through them, putting their post-notes and asking questions or giving opinions on what they thought was a very good idea.

So and I too liked sitting down one-on-one with people because they're honest that way.

Some people aren't very good at public spee speaking and don't like to be talking, standing up and talking in front of folks.

I've had a lot of good feedback just sitting at the table and uh and having that discussion.

Why and it was a good place there because a couple people went out, got to grab a beer, come back and had a conversation.

So yeah, I like that sort of interaction.

So if we can continue to maybe do a little presentation, and I wouldn't say a presentation, an introduction at the beginning of the meeting, show the poster boards and have people come and and tell us what's on their minds.

It was good.

So again, thank you for that.

No worries.

I think that would be a great way of going about it.

And I think that was the nature of the feedback that Cindy likely received too.

I think probably the same party had given that feedback.

Um other thoughts regarding the the flow or the things that we're hearing.

Um Mr.

Banderob, he said that he had some questions for us, like um, so maybe we can talk through these a little bit about do we think that there is equal representation or adequate representation in from Melrose and our rural districts within our current structure.

And um, you know, I'll speak for myself and my opinion.

What we heard from our commissioners is that there is not.

We had a nice uh map that displayed that.

And so perhaps in our deliberations as we consider um if we were to change the structure and look of our council, um, how that rural representation could be strengthened and um perhaps more uniform or even across the commissioners, my personal thought there.

Entertain other other thinking at this point from based on what we heard from our Ms.

Shaw.

We we do have uh a commissioner out in the audience that is uh the commissioner for all of our outlying areas.

I don't know if he'd have any comments about how we might want to do the structure or else I wasn't here for your interview, Dan.

So maybe you mentioned that when we talked to you as a council member, if you don't mind indulging us.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you, Sydney.

I I just I would like to definitely like to uh respond to Mr.

Banneroff's comment.

Uh as you all know, everybody, I think everybody was there, but s no here.

Cindy was there.

Everybody here was at that meeting.

Y'all know the commissioner he was talking about, and that was me.

And I unfortunately maybe Mr.

Dan Van Roff didn't hear the whole conversation.

But the conversation was I didn't make the comment as my opinion.

The comment was made was I've had discussions with Mr.

Clark about if that could happen, because many of the people in the rural areas feel that way.

They'd like to go back to City County again.

And the conversation was that Dan Clark says he doesn't see how that could happen.

So I just want to clarify that because it's not like I made this comment that it couldn't happen, and I don't feel it couldn't happen.

I I agree with these people.

If they want to uh go back to city county, maybe that's an option we should look at, you know.

So that's something and if anybody else has any questions, I'll see if I can answer them.

Mr.

Thielen.

Madam Chair, Dan, thank you.

Um out in Melrose, I I took pictures of all the notes that everybody stuck on the board.

And it's kind of overwhelmingly in support of separating the city county again.

They they don't want no part of the city.

So I mean, that's something that could probably be looked at.

I don't know.

I know it's gonna be very costly to do that.

So I don't know.

It's something else that everybody else is gonna have to figure out besides us.

Right.

Yeah.

I think you know, as you people spoke with them people and stuff, they're they're so far down there that they never see anybody from uh you know, Silverboat County unless it's an emergency or something.

You know, we've got contracts for the road maintenance, and we what we do is in the rural areas where we can't get to very fast and it takes time to get there, we have contracts with the highway department, and we do some of their roads and they do some of our roads.

So it's an agreement between the city county and the highway department to cover those things.

And I was a under the impression that the highway department was doing their streets down there, but they're only doing according to these folks, they're only doing the main street, you know.

And I have had calls and I've gotten a hold of our public works and they went right down on real snowy days.

They have gone down, but you're talking four or five hours later or what have you, you know, when they can get there.

And so those people feel misrepresented, you know.

They they feel that uh they're paying the same tax as everybody else, but you know, we don't have like Mr.

Neri said when he did his road maintenance report.

He says, Commissioner Callahan can tell you.

We don't those people don't see us very much.

You know, the core support is right here in the you know the urban area, and then when they get time, they get out to the rural areas as they get caught up.

Well, these people don't feel that's fair representation.

You know, I I've talked to Sheriff Lester before about uh issues they have out in the rural area.

I says, you know, if you just have a cop car drive out there once in a while, just the the presence of a police officer, people see that and they go other places.

And he flat out told me, he says, we have a police officer on every shift that's supposed to just do the rural areas.

He says it's rare that we do that because we're so busy in the urban area.

Well, people don't want to hear that.

You know, they want their representation, and and unfortunately that isn't working out right now for the rural areas.

Mr.

Dennahy, did you still have a question?

More of a comment.

Um, I think the idea that we will separate the county government and the city government um is not there because it was elected to consolidate back in 1976 or 78, and it was a vote of the people uh for that.

Now we can have that understanding.

I think instead of taking a hatchet to this problem, I think there is some way where we can refined some of the representation to the rural areas that we should do a better job with the service and have representation of the rural areas.

But to say that we are going, at least I'm talking for myself, that I would vote in any way or shape or form to have us separate county from city is uh a no for me.

So I mean I don't know if we're even looking at that question, but I know that there's a problem perception, and I think a way to solve that problem and perception is do a better job.

And I think this commission could listen to what you have said, Dan, and and some of the rural areas, and we'll be out in the rural areas again um having a public hearing, and I'm sure we're gonna have similar sort of comments, but uh one of the things that I don't think is gonna be plausible is having a separation of the county and city again.

Um just because it's too expensive and but that doesn't uh prevent us from doing a better job.

And maybe the representation that Mr.

Banderab have talked about, three three rural three urban is uh is a maybe a good alternative.

Um or maybe we can look at that fairly um fairly closely, uh give it a give it a shot anyway.

But uh I if people are thinking that I'm gonna vote for a separation of city and county, that's not gonna happen from from this seat, just to let you know.

Thank you, Mr.

Denny.

I did hear um diverse comments from Melrose.

I want to state for the record it wasn't unanimous that everybody there thought that they should separate city and county.

There were other people that said we think that's a ridiculous idea.

And they also mentioned that they felt like they were heard because they could call Mr.

Neary and they had a stop sign that was repaired within two days of that call.

They've had um ability to work with um our county superintendent of schools in a much more in you know deeply um impressive way than they have in the past.

So they were feeling like those services were be were being provided.

Um there were also some solutions offered in terms of perhaps we could contract with a local person who could run the plow so that it doesn't have to be driven, you know, somebody doesn't have to drive out from butte, et cetera.

Um and then there was an idea of something where an officer, you know, who is uh previously had been living in divide, could maybe be somebody that one of the officers lives in the area or some some sort of solution making in terms of localized um actions that could be afforded.

Um so I want to make sure that we we kind of keep those things in mind too as we're we're making this discussion.

Um Mr.

Steppen.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Uh in in these conversations, I hear a lot of anecdotal information or or maybe information that with data that may that maybe could be supported with data.

Things like the population growth has happened in the rural areas and there's more people in rural now, or um I hear that the bulk of the tax revenue is coming from rural areas areas.

It'd be helpful to to see the data to support those things and might help us with these conversations, because I agree, I think there's a middle ground.

Um and we heard from uh from Mr.

Callahan when he gave his presentation that he feels on the commission it's tough for him to represent such a large area when he's a fraction of the commission, right?

And so it would sure be helpful for me to to have a better understanding of what percent of uh our population is in rural areas, and can we have a conversation about changing the representation to better reflect that data?

Excellent point.

Mr.

Callahan, did you have other people?

Yeah, I just like to respond to Dan.

I'm just repeating what Dan Clark said.

You know, he explained to me reality it couldn't happen.

And if you look at it to turn around and divide everything again, it it's he's just talking reality.

But I don't think them saying they'd like to doesn't mean that's what they want done, they just want something fixed, I believe.

You know, equal representation would probably work.

You know, my opinion of going and changing the whole government probably it's gonna be a huge thing as well.

You know, it's a big process, it's a several year process, and so those are things we all have to look at, you know.

Uh as long as you're gonna change it, look at every option there is and like I said, Mr.

Clark said he just doesn't see any way that they could possibly turn around and divide it again.

We were us and Anaconda Deerlarge are the only counties that have done it.

Right.

And to turn around and undo it just doesn't seem feasible as according to him.

Appreciate you, Dan.

Yeah, yeah.

So Ms.

Conn.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Um Matt, that sounds like some research that I could probably find.

So I'll I'll work on that.

Um I might be calling you.

So I'll work on finding some data on the county population, tax rates, um how the growth rates, et cetera.

So I'll see what I can find.

Ms.

Casey?

Madam Chair, unless I'm mistaken, I don't see in the charter like how the districts are divided.

I only see that there shall be 12 members.

So I I guess for my education, how who does the districts and how were they done?

Does any I know they were kind of based on a population, I believe, when they were, but I don't know how or who drew them.

Mr.

Anrith, do you understand that?

Um Chairwoman Randall, Commissioner Casey.

Can you say it one more time?

Within the charter, I only see that we shall have 12 members of for a council.

I don't see anything about like districts.

So I don't know how I know they were tried to keep the population, I believe, you know, similar in each one, but how the actual boundaries were drawn, who was responsible or how did that come about?

Do we have any that would be just my for my educational purposes?

Yes, I don't know the answer to the question either.

Uh I am far too young to have been around when that happened.

Uh so I will I can definitely look though.

Yeah.

Make my papel.

Gee, thanks, Laurie.

Madam Chair, just I think uh who did it 40 years ago was the clerk recorder.

And at that time was um Mr.

Driscoll, who was responsible for the by census, so population and by at that time the legislative districts uh were divided up by population, and he was responsible for those districts.

At that time, we were thinking about doing the same thing we're doing here to separate the councils into our legislative districts, having the same districts with I think at two members a piece from each of the districts.

So 10 member council, but it it didn't fly.

It it it lost to the ballot.

Or it I don't think the study commission uh finally approved that.

But I think it's the clerk and recorder, but uh we'll we better be uh clear on that.

But I think it is Ms.

Conn.

Thank you, Madam Chairman.

Um I think when Ms.

Sherman was here from the clerk and recorder's office, she alluded to something about um her office being in charge of the the boundaries based again on population, like Dan said.

But I I think she maybe touched briefly on that.

I can follow up with her if you'd like.

I guess it comes back to the point that if we do want something in the charter, we might be going to six or five or changing the number of commissioners, but do we add how the districts are?

I mean, we're talking urban versus rural.

Rural means different things to different people.

Uh you know what I mean.

So that's the that's why I was just wanting some education on it is because if we are considering that and you know, getting more of a diverse population in the districts, I guess, or realm, how do we go about that and would it be written in the charter, I guess.

So that's why I was asking.

Yeah, I have a similar question term in terms of does it drop to ordinance or does it um do we define how we want those districts to be divided?

I think there were some suggestions about you know, drawing it by pies or something.

I can't remember, like starting in the center in a pie chart.

I can't remember the exact recommendation.

But you know, Mr.

Enrith, do you have any guidance in that in terms of what we might or might not want to put into the charter?

Uh Chairman Brandle, uh, commissioners personally I think it should be in there if you're looking at uh shrinking the districts.

And then based off of what Commissioner Denneh said, I do think it would be important to go back and look at how they have historically uh district Silverboat County uh and then look at also how we district, you know, our legislative districts here in the state of Montana and essentially piecemeal together what we think would be the most appropriate for B Montana, because if we look at Uptown Butte, we have much more condensed areas, you know, than other sections such as beef trailer, things like that.

So I think we would really look at all of those uh you know uh on on a map layout to determine what districts uh or how you would want to draw those districts and those district lines.

And then also you can look at geographical locations and have you know major streets, you know, splitting things up and stuff like that, and take all that into consideration and put some real forethought into how that map should look Mr.

Seppen.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Not a lot to add to what's been said, but I think as important as looking back to how it got here, if we're having an honest conversation about things that may be recommended, we want to vet that now on who's going to be responsible for carrying that out, right?

If if that becomes a charge of this committee, or which county government would be tasked with drawing those lines, I think is just as important as how it's been done in the past.

And I wonder just thinking back to Dan Clark's suggestion of not being overly prescriptive in our charter, if that was intentional that it wasn't that prescriptive in our charter, and if we want to be that prescriptive to where it literally takes an a change to the act to the to the charter to make adjustments to how those are done, if that's something that was considered previously when it was just the number that they put a stamp on and then left it for communities and and the people to follow to determine how that gets carved out.

Thank you, Madam Chair, and that that's true.

Uh Matt, I was thinking, I believe back when we consolidated we had nine city aldermen and three county commissioners, and so they took that number and continued that that number.

I don't know if the if the footprint of each of those alderman's districts were what we have now.

But my feeling is it it probably was darn close, and then every ten years we have a uh another um you know, every ten years we have our census, thank you, Lori.

Thank you.

Um that's when we redistrict, and I will every ten every ten years I'd add add on a part of Broadway and I give up a part, you know, it just depended on the I think it came out to about 1,500 voters per district, something along that had to be voters.

That's but yeah, the the population was the big thing for the uh census.

But yeah, we start out with nine aldermen and then three county commissioners.

So I I believe I have that correct.

Where it went from there, God knows.

I don't know.

Mr.

Denny?

Madam Chair, uh, question for Matt.

Matt, if we decide hypothetically to do something like districting or separate or making the district commissioner district smaller, or the voters decide that they want a city county manager City County Manager versus an electorate chief executive.

Do we have to draft that into the chat charter now charter now?

Uh or do we have the people vote and then reconvene to change the charter language after the people vote?

I think that's what kind of like what Matt is getting at.

I mean, is there going to be two separate charters given what the people recommendations are going to be or vote on?

Um do you have any idea how that would work?

Uh Commissioner Denny, uh, to be honest with you, I have no idea how that would work, but that's a great question because it's going to depend on what this body determines, and then we'll have to see and then we'll have to figure out how redistricting actually works.

My gut feeling tells me it's all going to be in one shot that if you choose to go this way, this is how we believe the district should be mapped out, and this is why.

Um but I will make a note and send myself an email right now, Sean Peterson, I will sit down and get that question answered.

Mr.

Seppen.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

So maybe the the way that I would phrase that question are the people would they be voting on a recommended form of government, or would they be voting on a recommended change to the charter?

Right?

So do we draft the change to the charter that includes the the the form of government?

Or do we do we pose the question on form of government and then draft the charter based on the vote?

So uh I'm assuming that they're voting on a change to the charter.

Uh Commissioner Steppen, yes.

That's my understanding of how this works is they're voting on a change to the charter that you're presenting.

Okay.

Ms.

Shaw, you might have some recollection from the initiatives that you brought forward to the voters last time.

It was changes that you were making to the charter, correct?

And the language that you wanted the charter to be reflecting, correct?

Maybe Mr.

Wool Worley can help us as well.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Yeah, but so it's very I'm just looking at it right now on our charter.

It's very generic.

It just says 12, there will be 12 members.

I think for a reason, because you know, if you have it too specific.

But I believe that we the question posed, let's say we want animal control to be a standalone, it was a yes or no.

But then after that, it the council and the chief executive took it on after that and and they made the changes.

So we we can't possibly, as study commissioners, we can only recommend, we can review and recommend to the voters.

The voters say yes or no, and then the actual job that becomes of it after that, I believe was taken on.

So it's I believe that's is that Lori, go ahead.

Sorry, Madam Chair.

Um chair, I I think Cindy might be correct on some, but if we do change or recommend, and it is approved by the charter or by the voters, a change in the form of government, such as going to a city county manager.

I believe we have to stay on an additional 90 days and write a transition plan of how that happens, is my understanding from the coursework we went through.

And and maybe that would be the case if if it's the districts, like if it's the commissioner districts, maybe then you would write a transition plan, but I'm not sure.

But I do know that in the coursework under like specifically the form of government, like going to a city county manager, we have to stay on and write how that transition plan would how that would happen.

You're exactly correct.

I'm I'm thinking about the language that goes to the voters.

Um Mr.

Worley, do you have some insight into that?

The about the language that goes to the voters in terms of if we're making a charter change, such as uh cutting the number of commissioners and/or you know, creating different districting.

How does how does that form out?

Do we do we spend time later?

You can't recall.

Okay.

All right, no worries.

All right, just since you were sitting in the audience, I thought maybe I'd ask.

All right.

So uh Mr.

Um and Ruth, we look forward to you hearing your opinion on this and um helping us guide this discussion because I think um having our language dialed in and very um tight will be important, especially for understanding amongst the voters and then great discussion within ourselves and and thinking about that transition plan for sure.

Really?

Uh Ms.

Shaw.

Thank you.

And I I want to I I defer to Lori because I I missed that chapter.

I'm just saying, I'm just kidding.

We did talk about transition language, but but 20 years ago, good lord, you know, I don't think we even had a training manual from that outfit.

But uh I I know Eileen Joyce, she drafted the language and had to go to the the state's attorney and it had to be drafted in particular way to go into the charter.

So uh no pressure, Matt and Ruth.

But no, it it was part of that.

That we we didn't know how to draft the legal language, and that's what how it kind of went.

But yeah, absolutely there would have to be a transition plan.

Thank you.

Um Madam Chair, Cindy, was that legal language for the ballot that they drafted?

Yes.

It had to it had to be drafted and uh had to be uh vetted by the county attorney.

Right, Bob.

All right.

Any more discussion on overview of the open houses?

Other ideas, Ms.

Conn.

Um I don't know if this will be where you want to talk about um our plans for Thursday.

Sure.

Go right ahead.

Um I'm just wondering because Shanna had mentioned at least between Shanna and I doing a divide and conquer, and I will go up to tech for the um I was gonna say the open house.

What is it called?

Tailgate.

For the tailgate to hand out all of those extra postcards we had printed.

I don't know if any commissioners want to come up there or just me it it it doesn't matter.

Yeah.

So Shana had asked that we like Ms.

Kahn said that we do both things.

So we do the tailgate and also do the planned open house at the EOC.

I am not available Thursday, so I can't be in other place.

So just amongst ourselves, if we could quickly divide ourselves into where we're going for that open those open houses or opportunities.

Mr.

Thielen.

Madam Chair, who's gonna be in any kind of condition to go to EOS after they've been to the tailgate?

They're concurrent.

I I I I don't think it was a both.

I think it was an either or I volunteer I volunteered to do that because I'm much better at that type of interaction.

You know, asking people, hey, do you live in Beautiful Beau?

Will you take the survey?

We take this card.

I assume Mr.

Steppen, you'll be at the game.

I uh well uh we are prepared to provide a spot for the commission as well as we can put the QR code for the community survey at one or two times during the broadcast on the Jumbotron.

Um however, I will not be able to participate as a member of the study commission on that evening.

So excellent.

I think it's fine to divvy ourselves up via email or whatever.

Um I think just know that I am unavailable.

So others, I hope that you can take the lead.

Madam Chair, I'm also out of town on that.

And I know we have um Ms.

Dolan will be back, correct?

Or she I can't remember.

So we obviously will have Ms.

McCormick out of pocket.

Tell me again the date of that one.

Yes, the 11th or the Thursday.

Oh, this Thursday.

This coming Thursday at the EOC.

Okay.

Oh, gotcha.

I that's right.

I missed that, sorry.

I will be at the EOC, but I'm not sure about yellow gating.

Thank you.

Okay.

Okay, so you can do EOC first and then head to Tailgate.

Okay.

Well, in that case.

And I'm fine, just wandering around distributing these things.

I will walk, I will do whatever I I can to get as many postcards as we can in the hands.

We ordered an extra thousand postcards.

Um I will leave some, I'll drop some off with you before Thursday and brochures and everything.

But um, but we really really want to, you know, get get as much of that out there as possible.

Okay.

Well, thank you.

We're ready to go for Thursday, it sounds like.

Um so moving on, our party line is last Wednesday of every month.

Um we are scheduled for August 27th, and so is in two days, and I can't recall who said they were going.

Um Chad was yes.

I think it was Mary.

So maybe we can have somebody who can cover for Mary.

Mr.

Thielen.

Okay.

Excellent.

So we'll send Mr.

Silk and Mr.

Thielen on Wednesday.

I'm sure Ron will look forward to seeing you both.

And then um I am totally open for considering being on the show more often, but I want to make sure that we have things to talk about.

So maybe it's when we're moving into these meetings and getting people there.

He's been on the radio telling uh folks about us every time he opens the show, and then of course he's done a lot of ads.

So um it might just be that we have to just keep saturating.

Um the meeting, the next meeting will be September or the next party line will be September 24th.

And so let me know please if you can um do that.

Um and then moving on to our op-ed update.

Do we have any update?

Thank you, madam chair.

Uh no, not really, uh, other than the previous op-ed ran two weeks ago, and I a thought could be that the net next op-ed could maybe come after this next round of public meetings and just giving the you know, uh explaining to the public the feedback that we've been hearing at the public meetings is a suggestion, but I do not have anything in the queue right now.

I think that's an excellent idea.

And then we're trying to push to the uh formal public hearing as well, so that would probably be great timing in terms of information coming forward.

Any other thoughts on op-eds?

Thank you for spearheading this.

You've become the king of the op-ed, so we appreciate you.

Uh a pen name.

All right, moving on to new business, any new business.

Ms.

Conn?

I don't know if this is new business or not.

I forgot to say in my update that I have reached out to my counterpart um with Anakonader Lodge Study Commission about getting some of their representatives here at the meeting.

And um I was hoping to get them here September 8th.

I haven't heard back from him yet, so I'm going to reach out to the chief executive's office in uh in Anaconda and see if we can we can get some people here for our September 8th meeting.

So I've been working towards that.

Okay, any other new business?

So moving on, we don't have a public hearing tonight.

Uh no other scheduled matters.

We'll have two things going on at the same time.

And then um our next study commission meeting will be held on September eighth, Monday, September eighth.

Um so with that, if I could have a motion to adjourn, please.

So moved.

Okay, so I have a motion I have two motions.

Okay, so I have a motion from Shaw and a second by Thielin.

Anyone opposed to adjourning?

All right.

Thank you all.

Um we'll see you Thursday.

Or I guess I won't, but thank you for taking Thursday on the