I'll call the Judiciary Committee meeting to order for uh August 27, 2025.

Um present are Commissioner Thatcher, Commissioner Mankins, Commissioner Callahan, Commissioner Healy, and Commissioner Shea.

Absent tonight is Commissioner Anderson.

Item number one, communication number 2025-310.

Matt Enruth, Butte Silverbow County Attorney requesting Council of Commissioners authorization for the county attorney's office to draft a new ordinance regulating the sale and distribution of medical and recreational marijuana in Butte Silverbow County.

Um it sounds like uh planning is still working through some details on this documentation.

Um County Attorney Enrus, do you have anything to add?

Chairman Shay, yes, that is correct.

Uh Planning is still working through their details.

I would ask uh for a motion to hold an abeyance for now, and that would also give uh Commissioner Healy some additional time for uh her topic tonight.

Okay.

I'll make a motion to hold communication number 2025-310 in abeyance.

There is a motion and a second to hold communication 2025-310 in abeyance.

Anything on the question?

All those in favor?

Aye.

Opposed.

Motion passes.

Um item number two, communication number 2025-353.

Lori Baker Patrick, Butte Silverbow Treasurer requesting council of commissioners direct the county attorney to prepare a council resolution to be read upon and passed August 20th, 2025, authorizing the approval of the tax deed public auction and the sale of certain parcels that have been tax deeded and owned by the city county of Butte Silverbow.

We had that um we passed that resolution, had that tax deed sale last week.

So Commissioner Thatcher.

Thank you, Chairwoman Shay.

At this time I'd like to make a motion to cross-reference communication number 2025-353 with resolution number 2025-35 and place on file.

Thank you.

There's a motion and a second to uh cross-reference communication 2025-353 with resolution 2025-35 and place this communication on file.

Anything on the question?

Commissioner Callahan.

Thank you, Chairwoman Shea.

Uh I was just curious, they said they had that sale last Wednesday prior to our meeting.

Did any property sell or were they all redeemed or um county attorney and ruth?

Uh Commissioner Fisher, yes, one property sold.

It was the property that was actually part of it was a piece of land that was associated with a house.

The house for some reason got sold without the land, and then I believe the individual that owned the home came in and bought the property.

I can't remember if that was a bank or a person, but that's the only one that got sold.

The rest of them are all redeemed.

Thank you.

Um all those in favor.

Aye.

Opposed.

Motion passes.

Um item number actually, I'm gonna move down to um the claims.

Um so there's three claims.

Boone Capital Corporation is a um uh redemption of tax assignment in the amount of nine thousand one hundred thirty-four dollars and forty-five cents.

Um item number two is David Goodwin, uh, cancel the special use application for a hundred dollars, and the third one is City Service Falcon for a bond refund for parking sidewalk Kirb and Gutter for 20,234 and 46 cents.

Does anybody have any questions on the claims?

Commissioner Thatcher.

Thank you, Chairman Shay.

I'd like to make a motion to approve the claims as presented.

There's a motion and a second to approve the claims as presented.

Anything on the question?

All those in favor?

Aye.

Opposed?

Motion passes.

Um item number, I'm gonna move to number six, resolution number 2025-31, a resolution of intent to alter the boundaries of the city county of Butte Silverbow, Montana's Solid Waste Special District to include the boundaries of Homestake Meadows 2 subdivision and providing for an effective date herein.

It sounds like the protest period is still active, so um I would entertain a motion to hold this again.

Thank you, Chairman Shay.

I'd like to make a motion to hold resolution number 2025-31 in abeyance.

Okay, there's a motion and a second to hold the resolution 2025-3-1 in abeyance.

Anything on the question?

All those in favor?

Aye.

Opposed?

Motion passes.

Okay, moving to communication number 2025-374, Trudy Healy, Commissioner District 8 requesting council of commissioners to look into concerns regarding urban camping on public streets and refer this matter to the Judiciary Committee and County Attorney Anne Ruth to develop an ordinance to address this matter.

I know we do have some members of the public who are here to provide some public comment.

Um and I will call on Commissioner Healy.

Thank you.

I just had a comment to make.

So at our last judiciary meeting, the question was raised about how and by whom it is decided whether a homeless individual is considered a criminal or not.

Commissioner Anderson addressed this very well last time, and I'd like to offer my response today.

We do not decide who is a criminal through their choices and conduct, not through our labeling, makes themselves they make themselves a criminal through their conduct.

Take the recent example at Father Sheehan Park.

After several citizens and I and I reported that a large encampment had been rebuilt, rebuilt, along with another large uh encampment on Pinion Street.

Director Frederickson acted immediately.

But each time this happens, Mute Silverbow pays the price in tax dollars and in staff time, and at the risk to employee safety, our crews must go in and clean up after people who disregard the rules and the laws.

That is a difference, not what we say, but what individuals choose to do.

And when those choices break the law, they define themselves as criminals.

It is unacceptable that citizens are placed in situations where they feel unsafe or compelled to alter their routes in order to use and enjoy our public parks and trails.

And I I did it myself, and I'll tell you what, I was scared to death.

I didn't go back that way.

I went into the encampment.

I think that people need to see how bad it is.

This is only one encampment.

And they even built a bridge of willow branches to cross the creek.

There was garbage in the creek.

And what does it say right here?

No camping.

And then we know littering and dumping trash is against the law.

I mean, this was horrendous.

And I was scared to death, and I would not go back that way.

Um and there was another one on Penyan Street.

Um hats off to Fredericson and his crew.

They did a fantastic job.

I uh cleaning that mess up fast.

So again, I know people don't want to separate it, but I don't think it's fair to place vulnerable families in situations or or compare them to what these people are choosing to do.

There are bathrooms.

I noted a bathroom um outhouse at Emma Park.

There is a bathroom in um Father Sheehan Park.

I don't know about the hours that they keep them open.

Um I don't know if they're utilized, but apparently some people have seen them use the creek.

And so um, no, this is not easy, but again, where there's gonna have to be a separation of different types of um events that are occurring that we have to figure out.

And I'm not saying this is gonna happen overnight.

This is a difficult situation because there they keep they the city cleans it up and then they come back in and rebuild them.

So um I did have somebody I invited to speak.

Are you Sarah?

Do you want to speak?

And Sid Debarthy?

Yeah, I'll call the trail.

Yeah, I'll call I'll call on Sid here in just a moment.

Um I would I'd like to ask County Attorney Anne Ruth just off the top of your head.

Um, based on what Commissioner Healy is saying, um, can you tell me how many laws are already on the books that regulate that sort of behavior?

We have multiple zero camping ordinances uh that are on our city county books uh ordinances like uh Commissioner Haley just stated that prohibit uh no public that prohibit public camping.

I mean that's why the sign was there.

So, yes, there's already a law on the book that prohibits what was being done in that uh photograph.

So realistically, what you're looking at is a resource and enforcement issue, not an ordinance issue.

Thank you.

Mr.

DeBarathy, if you'd like to come to the mic and press the the button on the base, there you go, and then just one more time.

There you go.

Oh, the lights on the top.

There you go.

Okay, so to state your name and thank you.

Uh my name is Sid Debarethy.

I live at 127 Wren's Drive in Butte, Montana.

And uh I've been working through Trudy on a couple of issues and primarily some of the garbage along Iron Street of my brother's place.

But I walk those trails five, six times a week, particularly Father She into George Street, you know, to where the Chamber of Commerce is.

And this last summer, it it got significantly worse with you know, homeless people or vagrants, what do you want to call it.

I they're not what I call, you know, families that are just dislodged from their hosing housing or unhomed.

These people are the encampment that Trudy has a lot of the pictures of.

That encampment had four individuals in it, three men and one woman from Louisiana.

And uh when I went in there, and Joe Lee also went in there and actually talked to him.

He's got a lot more guts than I do because he's he was a former policeman, so Joe's pretty tough guy.

But he he kind of researched where where they were from, and a couple of them wouldn't even respond, you know.

I I think they didn't want him to know where who they were or where they were from.

But the bigger issue that I've got is um I know we've got a lot of ordinances, and I I just think with the urban camping, it's something that's kind of been going on for you know, probably a couple of decades, but it's it's gotten pretty tough after COVID, you know, a lot of homeless people, a lot of people roam.

And I just think our county needs to really take a hard look at consolidating the ordinance or or reshuffling them in a way that we can put some enforcement of this kind of behavior and try to do something to move these people on.

Uh I constantly, every day I come across some people that won't go in that park anymore, that have little kids, moms, and they and they just won't go on that trail because of fear of being accosted.

My own daughter was here 4th of July, and we walked on that trail with the two granddaughters, and she was scared half to death with the one person a lot of people know with the tattoos on his face that was there and was kind of screaming at one of my uh granddaughters.

You know, people are afraid of it.

And uh one thing I will say, you know, on the very positive side of uh Sean Frederickson did a fantastic job getting that those homeless camps removed once he was notified.

But that had been there for over a month, and it'd been rebuilt and expanded a couple of times, three different ones.

And uh the other thing I saw yesterday is there was an animal control officer in a pickup driving the trail.

Never seen that before.

And I stopped and talked to her, and she says, I do this not for the dogs that I'm supposed to look at, the people don't have unleashes.

I do this to protect the women and their kids that are driving on the trail.

And and she's thanked by a lot of the the young women that run on the trail and all that.

It's the nicest trail in Butte because of the creek is right there and the ducks and the geese and all that, but it has gotten to the point where there's hardly any women with children that walk that trail.

So I'm just kind of urging you guys to, and I know it's complicated, but I I think there does need to be some enforcement of the ordinances.

The only final thing I'll say is, you know, because I've been involved in sports forever with the little league at mile high and uh for many years and still am involved in it.

You know, we are kicking people out of Father Sheehan Park to come there with their fifth-wheel self-contained trailer, you know, because their son's in a tournament, or their daughters in a tournament, or there are stodon because we have that ordinance, but yet selectively we let this go on.

And and I just think we need to kind of find some kind of a balance that we stay on this and we don't just uh selective enforce the ordinances on overnight camping on parents of players in softball tournaments or baseball tournaments, and then let these homeless camps sit right adjacent to where these people are, you know, these kids are playing baseball and softball.

So that's all I've got to say, and I I really encourage you guys to try to work through something to not cost the taxpayers a lot of money because I'm sure Mr.

Frederickson and his crew spent a lot of money cleaning those camps up.

So that's all I've got.

Thank you.

Okay, thank you.

Um is there anybody else that would like to um please come to the mic and um state your name and address for the record?

Thank you.

I am Bernie McCarthy.

I live at 3440 Hannibal here in Butte, and uh I'm a deacon with the Catholic Church who ordained for 13 years, and most of that time has been working with a population of homeless vulnerable people the last nine years here in Butte.

Um I'm assigned at St.

Patrick's in Immaculate Conception, and I was also the business manager at St.

Anne's, where we spent about 10% of our annual budget helping the needy, gas vouchers and motel vouchers and food, uh tire repair, car repair, all of those kinds of things.

I watched the last two meetings of this committee to see what the issue was, and the issue that keeps coming back up is the Emma Park issue.

Um, that's how all this started with urban camping.

Well, that urban Emma Park issue was a one-time issue where some people were staying there waiting to get housing.

Two of those people there got housing, and then the camp broke up and left.

It was a concern for everybody who works around Emma Parker goes up there, um, but there wasn't much that can be done.

I listened to last week's testimony by Mrs.

Vanderlinden and I listened to the comments by the commissioners and the repeated comments that we're not trying to make homelessness illegal.

Yet Commissioner Heagley says today, Commissioner Anderson said last week, Commissioner Callahan, or two weeks ago, Commissioner Callahan said two weeks ago, these people are who we need to get rid of.

We just heard testimony from another person.

These are the people we need to take care of.

We are trying to aim an ordinance at individuals who have situations that are out of their control.

They don't wish to be homeless.

I've been working with these people for nine years.

I have not yet run into somebody who says, I prefer to live on the streets.

I prefer to live, you know, in a dump.

I prefer to live someplace else.

I don't want to live in a in a hotel.

I haven't found a one that has wanted to do that.

They all want to be housed at some point.

Um we can't morally and ethically, I don't think we can divide people into these people and those people, because the minute that you do that, you're setting them up as the other, somebody who's outside of us, somebody who isn't like us, and then that gives us the authority to decide what's best for them and what isn't best for them.

I don't disagree that we need to deal with this issue.

I think there are ordinances on the books that can deal with it.

We just heard testimony that as soon as uh a homeless camp has been discovered and reported, it goes they go in and they get it cleaned up.

Homelessness has been around for centuries, not just decades.

It's been around for centuries.

The whole time of Butte's history, we've had homeless people.

The problem is not urban camping.

The problem is not urban camping and people staying here.

If that's an issue, then we can't let people stay in McGreff Park at Folk Festival anymore, because that's camping.

You can't do that.

You can't decide it's okay for one and it's not okay for another.

The issue in Butte today is homelessness and the lack of mental health care on the streets.

It's pure and simple.

We don't have enough inventory of housing for people to get housed.

Those who are on a list takes a year for them to get housed.

The the public housing authority that the Commissioner Callahan talked about last week, they're all full and they're taking limited limited number of people.

The the rescue mission is a limited resource solution.

It doesn't open up to everybody who needs help.

Their low barrier shelters not open all of the time.

They don't have access to everybody who's there.

It's just doesn't work.

We have no mental health care for people on the streets in Butte, Montana.

None.

We don't have anything.

So when you talk about people washing their laundry or doing their dishes in Blacktail Creek, who are mentally ill, whom I know personally and have worked with severely mentally ill.

No place at all.

Nothing we can do.

You can't send them to Warm Springs unless they're civilly committed.

And that and that takes a process that's complicated and limited, can't be done.

We have no mental health help on the streets in Butte.

If you want a solution, if you want a solution to this problem, then what you need to do is get together with landlords and the property management people and talk about the inventory in Butte and what can be done for that.

If you want help for these people in Butte, we need to get mental health help on the streets.

It just doesn't exist right now.

That's the solution.

I'll be happy to answer any questions.

I didn't want to go over three minutes.

Thank you, Mr.

McCarthy.

Commissioner Callahan.

Thank you, Chairman Shea.

Mr.

McCarthy, you talked about your history of Butte and what you you and the Catholic Church has done for these people, and we thank you.

But to say that we can't separate the people we're having the problems with and the people you're talking about.

How many of these camps have you and your group went in and paid for and spent the time to clean up?

I've not gone in to pay for any or clean up in any of them.

I've gone in there and worked with the people that are there.

So you're saying go ahead and leave them do the through the chair, please.

Commissioner Shea.

Thank you.

So you're saying we're just supposed to turn our head and let them continue to do these things in our parks that the citizens are scared to death to go into the parks and use them.

Didn't say that at all.

Didn't say anything like that.

Sorry.

That's okay.

Okay.

I didn't say anything like that, Commissioner Callahan.

I said I said it is an issue and it needs to be fixed.

And then there needs we need to do it, but the issue the issue is not urban camping.

The issue is homelessness and mental health on the streets in Butte.

We get that resolved, we'll resolve those other issues.

Thank you, Mr.

McCarthy.

Commissioner Callahan.

I would also like to comment on your comment on talk to the landlords.

I have talked to the landlords.

Most landlords have quit renting to people and gone to uh what are the short-term rentals?

Airbnbs because it cost them so much money to bring their properties back up to be able to be used because the Catholic Church, the housing authority, and them are paying rent for these people, and they go in and destroy the properties.

These people are fed up.

That is created part of this problem.

And to turn around and keep saying these people are mentally ill, what are we doing to fix that problem?

We've got to fix a problem.

And I am familiar with, I've talked to landlords.

Many of the landlords have turned them into uh Airbnbs because they've tried to help the housing authority and stuff out.

And it's just cost them too much money.

And then when they're in there and destroy the property, it takes months to get them back out.

Can you give me a solution to that problem?

Commissioner Callahan.

Mr.

McCarthy.

The solution that I know that works best is supportive housing.

And that's a situation where we get people who are difficult to house, and there are people out there who are difficult to house.

Some are impossible to house because landlords won't take them, and there's nothing I can say that I blame them for any of that.

But but I have experience, personal experience, where somebody who is difficult to house, who is one of our most frequent users, got him housed and stayed with him, worked with him daily.

We cut down on the number of times he showed up at the at the hospital, the number of times he showed up at in jail.

He was housed and supported during that housing, and it works.

That's how we do it.

Thank you, Mr.

McCarthy.

One more follow-up, and we're going to move on.

So you're talking one success story to how many failed stories.

I'm Commissioner Callahan, chairperson's.

I'm talking about a personal story that I'm aware of that I personally work with.

I I work with several others who are successful.

I have I can know of one that was unsuccessful, and he's been named here numerous times in this committee.

He's unsuccessful.

But he's mentally ill beyond any help that we can get him here in Butte.

And that's the issue.

It's not that he wants to be homeless.

It's not that he's addicted, though he's a drug user.

It's not that he's a drunk though he drinks.

And I stood with him in offices when the when the voices are talking to him and the voices are talking to me, and there's nothing we can do about that except get a mental health help.

So there are some people that are unhoused, on inability to be housed.

That doesn't mean we should just give up and make it illegal for them to be around here.

That's not right.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

McCarthy.

Um, in the interest of time, and we will likely have to reconvene after the committee of the whole.

Is there anyone else who would like to give a short comment?

Please come to the microphone, state your name and address for the record.

Hi, my name is Sarah Bordoon.

My address is 1127 Waukesha Street.

I've I've got so many different angles of contact to this subject.

I'm a landlord and I have housed people who have destroyed my property or driven off other tenants out of our fourplex.

I worked for community health center as a nurse with Bernie on a project to house the very most difficult people in our community.

And I also love public lands and I know that not only our urban public lands but our mountain lakes are being you know just littered beyond recognition right.

So I I think with the comments most recently about the landlord part I know that HUD and Action Inc.

are planning on breaking ground on a fourplex that's supportive housing.

And something we say in my family is because before so before we used to have case management for people in the Western Montana mental health program.

There were case managers who attended to people who were housed at that time go to their apartments, make sure they had their meds, made sure they had food, you know case management that was all cut during I forget whose administration which governor's administration doesn't matter they're gone.

We don't have that support in our community now.

We tried through some grant monies at CHC to do a little coalition of a nurse partnered with other outreach and Action Inc.

and the police ER and attend to some of the most frequent users of emergency services which tend to be some of the people you're talking about and I never once felt afraid of any of the people that I approached in part because there was purpose of mutual aid you know the city has a problem of some people using emergency services being hard on public lands urban camping that's expensive for the county and the person has a need for health care mental health care and housing basic services.

So I I just want to say it's going to take housing that is supportive with intensive case management if you want the people who have been citizens of Butte for quite a while who you're seeing frequently who appear to be mentally ill and unhoused I can't speak as much to people who are coming through and and camping and then maybe moving on when they realize Butte also has expensive housing and they can't get into it and there's nothing available so that's my comment that's where I'm I'm seeing this right now.

Thank you Ms Burdoon I appreciate your comments thank you.

There's three minutes left in this meeting right now is there anybody else that would like to speak up okay seeing none I'll ask the um commissioner healy I find it interesting that you think housing is gonna fix the mental health issue I just recently had to get a restraining order on my neighbor of 15 years.

I don't know what her mental um issue is her mother takes care of her she's around 50 so she has a house her neighbor is her mother who buys her booze and her cigarettes and pays for her to go play pool at the party palace and she's housed and she's fed and she's loved and she's still dangerous to me.

So that I had to get a restraining order after 15 years of living next door why she went off the rails I don't know but a house did not fix her mental illness I appreciate that um sentiment that it's not only unhoused people who break laws it's 729 I I would just ask that we um it take a break for a minute we'll re reconvene after the meeting so what that means is we didn't have enough time to finish all the content on this meeting and we will reconvene at the end of the committee of the whole meeting which I anticipate will be in