Okay, we got everybody.

Right, we will reconvene um the judiciary committee.

Um County Attorney Enroof, do you have um any input, especially around um well, just around all of it, thank you.

Are you asking for my opinion?

Yes, a legal opinion.

Uh thank you, uh Chairwoman Shay.

So based off of everything I have heard and the discussions that are round is we have a lot of extremely concerned citizens, and and they are uh their concerns are valid with regards to urban camping uh and how we address the issue of homelessness, mental health, and the things that we have going on in Butte Montana.

So we currently have an ordinance uh on the book that books that prohibits urban camping.

It does have penalties with it.

It's got uh fines associated with it.

Um, one section it's got up to even six months in the county jail associated with it, depending on how many times an individual has violated.

Uh please don't quote me on that because this is coming off the top of my head, and you should never practice law off the top of your head.

But there is the possibility for jail time, and there is the possibility for finance and fees.

The the the problem that I see with all of this is it's it's an enforcement issue.

But I I know if Sheriff Lester was in here, he's gonna ask me, do I enforce that law, or do I continue to have my officers uh, you know, enforcing other laws such as uh, you know, if we're we're doing search warrants for drug busts or you know, uh recently we've had in the paper a lot of uh child predators that have been being caught.

The amount of work that goes into those cases is phenomenal.

It's absolutely insane.

So what you're looking at here, in my opinion, is trying to find a balance between all of this, and it sounds like Sean Fredericson did a fantastic job.

He went in and he cleaned up the camp.

The next question becomes is if the individuals don't leave, what do we do?

Do we find them, do we charge them, do we incarcerate them?

Uh again, that's a funds issue.

We currently have a jail that is still maxed out, it is better than it was.

Uh but you know, I mean, you can look at the cost of an individual being housed in our county jail on a daily basis is anywhere between 80 to 120 dollars a day, and I'm simply basing that off of what the state pays us.

I don't know if that's the actual true value.

Uh so again, it boils down to what we want to enforce, what what we have within our budgets, which we've been talking about here tonight, uh, where we want to allocate those funds and how we want to do it.

Um we had to allocate uh another sixty thousand dollars to a mental health contract that CCCS helps us with regards to crisis response uh this week.

Um that contract is specific to individuals that are being you know screened to possibly be committed to warm springs, and uh I have to be very honest.

Um Mr.

Thatcher and CCCS give us a break on that.

They I don't think they make any money on it, and they allow us to use those services, and without that, and so my opinion is it has multiple facets attached to it, which include enforcement, which include mental health counseling, which include funding, and we have to be able to balance that, and right now uh it's it's probably being balanced the best it can with the financial resources that we have.

I mean, you would need to allocate additional funds to more reinforcement if you want to put those individuals in jail.

These are not crimes that we would incarcerate people for for more than a day or two.

Uh you know, a a DUI, which is technically not a crime in the state of Montana, it's a traffic violation.

It has a mandatory minimum of 24 hours, you know, in jail on it, and we hardly ever go over that simply because we don't have the capability of doing so in our own jail.

Uh it is a very large problem that's gonna require a a bigger solution than just creating an ordinance to prohibit um public camping.

And uh that is my opinion on it so far.

Thank you, County Attorney Enroof, Commissioner Healy.

I just want to say some of the prevention and deterrence I was thinking or researching is like physical deterrence, lighting, landscaping, visibility, increased monitoring.

Can we um have like rangers or patrols or community watch to help the police out?

Um because I'd be willing to do it.

I'm sure there's people out there who'd be willing to do it.

Uh clear public communication and signage, swift response and cleanup after reports.

So none of those included jail.

I'm just trying to find solutions.

Thank you, Commissioner Healy.

I'm not sure that those things would require legislation to implement.

It sounds like they would require money, if I'm not mistaken.

Commissioner Healy, go ahead.

So part of what part of what I'm trying to do here is there are ordinances, so if we can figure out how to enforce the ordinances, then we can get down to what we do need to.

I think Sid commented on this.

We know enforcement's the issue if we figure out what we can enforce and then see what's left on the table.

There might not be that much left that needs to be figured out.

The problem is enforcement.

Big time.

And I wanted to ask, can I ask you a question?

So I I um need education, and I think the public does too.

So um, how do I get permission to have Silverbow employees who have volunteered to speak on this matter to the judiciary to educate to educate us and the public on what is available in our community to help those in need?

Like I I I had I I had um somebody from um the health department who works with the addiction handing out needles, who has uh quite a bit of information on how what it cost, and you know what's available, those kind of things out there.

Action Inc, what does it cost, what is available.

So we know what's available.

I need education, and I think the public needs education.

And I had a person who volunteered to speak, and then she said that she wasn't allowed to speak to the commissioners after a time went by.

She I had her signed up, and she said that she wasn't allowed to speak to the commissioners.

Um it was a volunteer thing, and I don't know what that's about.

So, Commissioner Healy, I'll just step in for just a second.

Um, you can request all of that information from our budget department.

Yep.

Thank you.

Yeah, you're welcome.

Um County Attorney Enris, did you have anything to add?

I may I might have misunderstood the question.

I think I understand the question.

Okay.

Chairwoman Shea, uh, Commissioner Healy.

I think your question is is how do we educate the public on the resources that we have?

We actually are already doing that.

We have a fabulous director of our um public health and human services here in town, Caramel Malachney, that that does that.

Her they they get all the they have meetings, they hold seminars, um, you can go down to Front Street and they're there all the time.

A lot of that stuff comes uh through them.

Um, and then I know that we you know the rest of our departments do that too.

We have outreach on Facebook, um, we have outreach you can go downstairs and look at the board that's posted in the courthouse.

So I think the county is in and of itself doing everything it can to let the people of uh uh But Silverbow County know that these these resources are available because there are people that are taking advantage of them, so it is getting out there.

Okay.

Thank you.

I hope that both of those parts helped answer your question.

Um Commissioner Thatcher.

Uh thank you, Chairwoman Shay.

I would like to ask Dr.

Mullachny maybe to come up here and speak.

I'm not sure what Commissioner Healy was referring to, but maybe you could touch light on that and then maybe just see the entire issue.

Thank you.

Uh thank you, Commissioner Shea.

Uh Commissioner Healy.

Um, I did talk to that employee.

Um, she did come to me and her supervisor, and the reason she didn't come is we don't have that data collected, and so I want to bring the most accurate data to you, and I wasn't sure what you were looking for or what exactly information you wanted.

Um we have um, you know, I I wasn't if it was related to urban camping, I wasn't sure what information you were looking for.

So go ahead.

So again, you know, um uh information that I don't know, but I thought in doing it in this type of place, since it's on the record, it's recorded, people watch this.

I wanted specifically what is available.

I don't think people just know what's available as far as you know um the information on what you do.

You know, it wasn't anything like uh nefarious.

No.

It was just please educate me and educate us on you know what is available out there, because it sounds like there's nothing available, but obviously we do have a lot of programs that do help people.

Sure.

I think Butte does great.

There's a lot of programs, and I think people need to be educated on what programs are out there and what an individual does to help people.

Director Malakney.

Uh Commissioner Shea, Commissioner Healy, that is something I would love to bring back to this committee and the whole council.

Um just and not just an annual report, but just a summary of what the health department does.

We're once removed from the courthouse in public works, so we're kind of just down there on front street doing our thing.

And usually when you don't hear from us means all of our prevention efforts are working.

And so um I would love to bring back something for you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um I believe that um Ms.

Vander Linden has some information regarding community resources.

Um so I do participate in meetings with um the health department frequently, and we talk a lot about the different resources there are available in Butte.

And you're right, we have a huge hearts and we want to do the best we can.

Um and there is a huge workforce shortage, not just in Montana, not just in Butte, but nationwide, worldwide.

Um, and so I work really hard with these partners in the room to try to bring more services to Butte because we don't we don't really have much of anything truly.

We lost Hayes Morris, which was our crisis home.

Um most people when they're in crisis, they either end up in jail or at the hospital.

And then there's nowhere to go from there most of the time.

Worm Springs has a wait list.

People end up in eastern Idaho at an inpatient treatment center.

Um Western Montana Mental Health is kind of they're trying their best and aware they're trying their best, but there's not enough people to work in the jobs.

I think if you looked online, you'd see there's lots of mental health jobs available.

Um I'm at the community health center.

We also do the best we can to serve the community, but we don't have enough building to employ enough people to be able to meet all the needs there are out there.

And then on top of it, the housing crisis that we know is nationwide, not just Butte, not just Bozeman, not just Montana.

Um so it's really um I think we all do our best.

There is the needle exchange, there's as many things as we can possibly provide.

We just don't have the the manpower to do it, or the systems in place to do it, or the funding to do it, or all the things.

There's so many gaps in the system that it would truly make you sick.

It makes me sick pretty regularly.

Thank you, Ms.

Vanderlinden.

Commissioner Callahan.

All right, now we're on.

Thank you, Chair Percianshay.

Uh I guess my question would be uh the Hayes Moore's House.

We lost the Hayes Moore's house.

Montana Mental Health, from what I understood, took that over and were gonna do their own.

They always owned Hayes Morris.

So it was a crisis home that was run by Western Montana Mental Health.

And actually what happens is I know that in Butte we feel that crisis a lot, but comparatively, what Medicaid pays out for a crisis to what it takes to run a house like Hayes Morris, there is no way they could sustain it.

It's not possible in Butte.

Even other communities, Missoula has trouble sustaining themselves.

They just closed a crisis home.

Um because it is so hard to sustain Medicaid does not pay well for mental health services.

That's why you don't see a lot of services.

Commissioner Callahan.

Um I guess the purpose of this house is mainly when people are in a crisis to keep them out of our jail or the hospital.

The purpose originally of Hayes Morris was if you were in a cr in a mental health crisis, like you were thinking of hurting yourself or someone else.

Um now it is a group home, and so there are people living there.

It is still being run by Western, um, but in a different in a different capacity.

Okay.

I see people there.

I just wasn't sure if they were still trying to use it as a crisis home or not.

No, we don't have a crisis home in Butte.

Thank you, Commissioner Callahan.

Follow-up.

So Hayes Morris House got out of the business, and Montana Mental Health got out of the crisis home business too.

Is that what you're saying?

Um in Butte, I think there's still I don't I'm not an expert on the other communities.

Um I know things, but um I don't know what other houses they have in the state, but I know there is no crisis home in Butte.

But Western Montana Mental Health does still run that home, but they run it as a group home.

Thank you very much.

Uh Commissioner Calvin.

Oh.

Go ahead.

Mr.

McCarthy, I got some questions for you.

We kind of got cut off shock.

You you quoted some things that were said in the last couple meetings that we've had, and one of them I felt like you were offended that we used one of the people's names.

Yeah.

The name we used was his street call name.

It certainly wasn't his birth given name.

Yeah, it is.

He only lives by one name.

It was his first name, and then a description of his physical physical description.

There was no doubt in anybody's mind who you were describing.

Right.

I mean, he's he's been in the system.

Well, he's he's not he's not a local person.

He got himself in trouble.

He went to prison, he's been in the pre-release, and he's been through the system.

He got out of the pre-release.

I've had plenty of reactions with the same person that you're speaking of.

And from what I've been told, and what I've seen, what I've experienced dealing with this person, the mental health problem isn't the problem.

When these people are under supervision, we don't have problems with them.

When he was in the pre-release, this gentleman was a gentleman.

But when they get out and they get on the drug and alcohol is where the problem comes in.

So to keep using the mental health as a crutch to say these people shouldn't, we shouldn't have to deal with these people because of mental health.

We still have to deal with them.

When they break the law, I mean he recently beat somebody up with the two by four.

He was in prison for felony assault.

These are the kind of people we have to deal with.

And it isn't because of mental health, it's because they're adding drug and alcohol to them.

There was another gap, there was another gentleman, just a wonderful kid that was in one of our group homes.

And when he was under supervision, you couldn't find a kinder person.

As soon as he got out with the rest of the group, now he's become a problem with them.

And that's not who he is.

When he was under supervision and taking his meds, but once he got on the drugs and alcohol, that's where the problem come in.

I didn't once hear you mention what we're gonna do.

I've tried to help this person.

I've gone to these group home and says, what can we do to get him off the street?

Winter's coming.

It isn't the mental health the problem.

They can get him counseling.

They have to go to detox.

They can't get them into detox.

That's where our problem is.

I didn't hear you once say detox is our problem.

The same person that you're talking about that was offended.

We just put the federal government put 30 million dollars into our house authority remodeling all those places.

He was in one of those apartments within a month he destroyed it.

So we're just supposed to let it go on and on.

This guy, when he was under supervision, was fine.

But once he got on the street and got into the drugs and alcohol, that changes these people.

Thank you, Commissioner Callahan.

I think you just made a very eloquent statement about how important supportive services are.

And um mental health is more than just counseling.

Um there are a lot of barriers to people receiving their medications that keep them kind of on that level and able to um participate fully in the society that we have.

Um so I I do appreciate that.

And what you said is is really important.

And I think that Mr.

McCarthy was also stating um the importance of supportive services, and we all know that that's going to take an incredible amount of funding and effort from multiple agencies to get done, both private and public.

Um I believe Commissioner Thatcher had comments.

Thank you, Chairwoman Shea.

Just a couple things.

Addiction is a disease too.

And so that's something that needs to be considered.

People can't often control their desire or their need for drugs and alcohol.

So that is something that we should be cognizant of too.

Just like mental illness, addiction is a disease as well.

First thing.

Second thing, I'd like to get back to the point of enforcement because that is really the gist of this.

I mean, we need to be able to enforce something.

Commissioner Healy, have you spoken with Sheriff Lester about any of this?

Could you enlighten us, or maybe could we ask Sheriff Lester to come speak come speak?

Commissioner Shea, would you mind reaching out to see if Sheriff Lester would come and speak at Judiciary?

Yes, I invited him last uh last meeting, and um they were debriefing in anaconda, so he wasn't able to make it, and I'm not sure why um where he's at right now.

I went out to find him and he's he's already gone apparently, but yes, I will make sure that he is um invited and at the table because I think that enforcement is is uh well commissioner healy said it, the enforcement is the problem.

I went out to find him and he's he's already gone apparently, but yes, I will make sure that he is um invited and at the table because I think that enforcement is is uh well commissioner healy said it the enforcement is the problem um adding additional regulation on top of regulations that we have that the regulations we have can be more enforced more stringently, however, um like Commissioner or like uh County Attorney Industry said it's finding that balance and properly and additionally funding our law enforcement and our health department in order to make those things happen.

Um I don't think anybody at the table or in the room um would disagree with the fact that an additional layer of regulation isn't going to change um fundamentally the issue that we have at hand.

Um it does sound like uh once the issue at Father Sheehan was reported, um, and I don't know if that got reported directly to law enforcement or if it went directly to Sean.

So um so if we expect law enforcement to enforce um those laws, we we need to probably use law enforcement um in their capacity, and I do appreciate Parks and Rec.

I'm on the parks and rec board as well, so I do appreciate their efforts in cleaning it up and making sure the park is usable and friendly for for everybody.

Um so I guess in for me in closing, uh I guess not really in closing, but enforcement is the issue.

Um and I I believe that's more around what you're actually asking for.

Um and and I I do think you are are fully in grasp of the need for supportive services and and the things because I do know that you also have a big heart.

Um Commissioner Fisher would like to say something.

Uh excuse me.

Thank you, Chairman Shay.

I appreciate everything that's being said around here, but uh the agenda item strictly speaks of urban camping, and we are way off the subject right now of urban camping.

We're into mental health issues, drug and alcohol issues.

This communication strictly talks about urban camping.

And I think we're way off the agenda right now.

Uh, you know, not being on this committee, I just like to weigh in that I think we've opened the count of worms here because beyond urban camping, and I think uh in all uh due process and protocol, it is not right to be talking about things we're talking about.

There should be another communication if we want to talk about mental health and things like that.

And as many of you know, my wife worked for Western Mental Health for 24 years, so we do know a little bit about that, but I think we're diversifying off of the subject.

If we want to talk about urban camping, we should talk about urban camping.

And if we want to talk about drug and alcohol abuse and uh vagrant people in town, we should talk about it another meeting.

Thank you.

Thank you, Commissioner Fisher.

Um you and I often agree to disagree.

I I don't think we can effectively address what Commissioner Healy was um is working on without talking about the underlying issues.

Um I think it's always good to to get it out in the open for the public to understand that this is a community problem and it's a community, there has to be a community solution.

And and I'll give credit to Commissioner O'Leary for a conversation we had prior to this meeting for for bringing that really around for me.

Um so Commissioner Healy, do you have a preference with this communication in the moment?

As far as oh, as far as what would you like to do with the communication?

Would you like to um hold it?

Okay.

Yeah, I'd like to hold it um this communication in abeyance, and I'd like to continue with education uh from like Sheriff Lester, um, like from um Action Inc.

We've had uh good information from Vanderlinden.

Thank you very much.

You've given us a lot of information.

So I think a lot of it, this is education.

You know, we first we gotta figure out what what's the problem, what's out there, so then we can start taking away from like I said, what can be enforced with what's already on the book and take a look at what's left, and maybe nothing will be left, but it's a problem, and I ran on helping this community to be safer, cleaner, and healthier.

I didn't have to run on transparency because I'm transparent.

But when people come to me and there's an issue, I serve the people of Butte, and the majority of the people abute, and if people are afraid to walk on the walking trails, that's a problem because of urban camping.

Um that garbage, like I said, I'm not a fearful person, but I was afraid myself.

Once I walked and saw how horrific that particular encampment was.

So I still need education.

And I think we all do, and I think the community does.

So that way we can start working on the solution.

And I don't believe it's jail.

I never said jail, I never said, you know, that's when I was talking about I'm not here to criminalize homelessness.

I'm here to find solutions.

And not once did I ever say jail was the solution.

But this is a community problem, and I have reached out to the community through Facebook, through one-on-one conversations at the gym, at Walgreens, I get stopped everywhere.

And I say if you have an impact statement, you have an idea.

This is a community problem.

We need to brainstorm.

This is a butte problem that we need to address.

And it's not going to be overnight.

And it's not one single problem, throw every homeless person in one basket.

Each issue has to be addressed as it's itch issue.

And that's that's my goal.

Thank you.

Commissioner Healy, I would entertain a motion.

Uh thank you, Chairman Shea.

I'd like to make a motion to hold communication number 2025-374 in abeyance.

There's a motion and a second on the floor to hold this communication in abeyance.

Anything on the question?

Commissioner Mainkins.

Uh thank you, uh, Chairwoman Shay.

Just on the question, I know that we said some things, but um, could you just clarify to the people who are listening and the people that are here on what kind of education and does this communication need to be revamped and started with a new communication?

Uh someone like uh Director Malakney would um like she was willing to do a presentation.

Um is that something that we should be looking more so uh as a whole with the um full council or I mean because this um communication seems to be on enforcement.

So again, uh I feel that we all could be educated in some different avenues, but I think that we have to be a little bit more specific on what is going to happen um in judiciary the next time or if it's just gonna go to the full council Thank you, Commissioner Mankins.

Um I think you bring up a great point because the the communication is specifically asking for an ordinance to be written, and if we um at this point don't intend to write an ordinance and we want to move more towards public outreach and education and information gathering, um I would uh I I think you made a great point.

So I don't know if somebody wants to um make a substitute motion.

Um at this point I would make a substitute motion to um place communication 2025-374 on file.

Note and place on file.

Okay, sorry, I was writing.

Would you please restate the motion for me?

Um I'd like to place communication number 2025-374 note and place on file.

Okay, so there's a substitute motion on the floor to note communication number 2025-374 in place on file on the question, Commissioner Thatcher.

Thank you, Chairwoman Shea.

Commissioner Healy, I guess that is a question to you is do you um plan to develop an ordinance or is this something that maybe you would submit a new communication as Commissioner Mankins was saying to address the outreach?

Commissioner Healy.

Thank you.

So, like I said, um this came to me through the public.

So it's a public concern specifically with people uh in their backyards on the sidewalk, in their or even parking campers, you know, wherever they want.

So there's other issues, and what I was saying was if we can maybe maybe I'll work with Mankin on specifically, but these are the people's concerns, you know, that came to me is the urban camping that's being allowed to happen all around Butte, because there's um so again it's I don't want to disappoint them either because they came to me for help.

And there's other people that I talk to in the community that see it as a problem.

So I don't maybe I I'll I'll address it with some and get some ideas, but I'm not opposed to readdressing it, but I'm not gonna just do it because right now, because this was brought to me by citizens, and it continues to be out there when I'm in the community that the urban camping is a problem.

Okay, thank you, Commissioner Healy.

Um I I think we all agreed that it was an enforcement of the existing laws that is the problem.

And so I think the root of the of Commissioner Mankins' question is does this committee intend to write an additional ordinance or ordinances in order to uh I guess layer over the top of the existing ordinances that already prevent the types of things that are those ordinances that are already on the books.

I think that I think that's the question.

Commissioner Callahan.

Thank you, Chairman Shea.

My fear is if we place this on file.

I didn't hear anything, any comments saying what direction we're going from here tonight.

We place it on file, it dies.

Commissioner Healy tries to get people together to try to get to where we want to go.

My suggestion would be that we hold it in abeyance until we get time to work on what we're trying to do, and then down the road when we decide if the ordinances we have are fine, we can move forward with that, or if we decide we have to change some ordinances.

We have a communication here that we have that ability to use.

Commissioner Thatcher.

Thank you, Chairwoman Shay.

I can understand that, but this is specifically asking to develop an ordinance.

It's not asking to amend any ordinances, address any ordinances.

This is asking specifically for this committee to draft and write an ordinance.

And so I I don't think that this matter has to just go away, Commissioner Healy.

I think that you're on uh the right track with asking Dr.

Murlochney for the services, reaching out to actioning, mr.

Mrs.

Vanderlinden.

Um, but for the very purpose of just business, council business and rules.

Are is the intention there?

Are you going to draft an ordinance?

Is the question so the problem still remains that there's nothing to keep people from parking at schools, at parks, camping, at schools, at parks, in front of people's houses, and that's where the problem lies with the community.

That there is nothing to protect them from having people park in front of their homes or at their schools that were concerned about their children, that's been brought up to me that their children can't even play outside.

Um so yes, I do want to do an ordinance where there is specifically places where people cannot camp on the streets.

Thank you.

So we have a motion and a second on the floor to um note communication number 2025-374 and place this on file.

Anything else on the question?

We already have a substitute motion on the floor.

Um those in favor of noting and placing on file.

Opposed?

Aye.

Nay.

Okay, okay.

That motion fails.

We'll move to the original motion to hold an abeyance.

And I just want to say as the chair, um I believe that giving this a little more exposure.

Um I would really like to see um Commissioner Healy come forward with um or ideas for an ordinance.

Um I think holding this for one more committee of the whole can be appropriate.

We can it can also be segregated next week out of the committee of the whole by the full council and and talked about.

Um I don't think it hurts anything to um give it a couple more weeks.

So thank you.

Um all those in favor of holding an abeyance.

Aye.

Aye.

Opposed motion passes.

That's the end of the agenda.

All those in favor?