We're just waiting for Commissioner Anderson in case anybody's wondering.

He'll be out momentarily.

All right, welcome back, everybody.

This is uh the Judiciary Committee meeting for September 10th reconvening.

Um Commissioner Healy, you have the floor.

So what I was saying is that um there's concerns that um there's a minimizing experience of people who are having to live with crime around their neighborhoods with the homeless.

Uh included live in that name kind of a neighborhood on Iron Street.

So consider yourself blessed that you don't have it happening in front of your house and in your alleys and on your in your neighborhood.

I'm just uh was lucky enough where being single I didn't worry about kids, so I I fought the fight, including asking drug addicts to leave when they were obviously selling in the alleys.

Um I did have a question for Mr.

Fredericson, Director Frederickson.

Are the no camping rules um for all the parks in Butte?

Or is it just certain parks have 'em?

Signs that say no overnight camping.

Um thank you for the question, Commissioner Healy.

Uh no, I believe there's signs in every park that says no camping.

Okay.

Commissioner Healy, follow-up.

Um so yeah, my um then I'm wondering um, then why does it continue to happen?

You know, I mean, because of the dangers that it's causing to some neighborhoods.

Um I answer that.

Yeah, sure.

I would say because people are st still unhoused when they get rooted out of a park.

Same reason um people drive forty-five on Harrison Avenue with dozens of signs that say the speed limit is thirty-five.

I just I just don't think the answer is that black and white.

Um Commissioner Frederickson, if you wanted to add anything.

I mean, we really don't have any minus some of the parks, uh, you know, I've I've spoken with some of the um residents around Emma Park, and I I've said, you know, we'll work on better lighting, particularly in the the pavilion.

Um, but if you see them in their camp at 10 o'clock, they're breaking the law, so you should call law enforcement.

Um as far as Father Sheehan, I mean there was Father Sheehan's uh a really dense natural park.

Um so once they once they were staying in the willows, it was really hard to to see them, and then it just kept growing and growing.

And so um a part of the the plan that we have moving forward within the parks department is um thinning out those willows, um, which needs to happen anyway.

It's you can't even see the creek to enjoy the creek.

So um, but we'll need to to work with the state agencies to make sure that we're following all the proper procedures for removing willows and along the the watershed.

Um but that's something that we're we're gonna plan on doing uh this fall.

Thank you, Mr.

Fredericson.

Um Commissioner Thatcher.

Thank you, Chairwoman Shay.

I have a couple questions for Commissioner Healy.

Commissioner Healy, did you say that it was 85 calls in the Emma?

That is what uh that was reported to me from uh John who came and spoke several times from Emma from the Emma Park area.

I don't know, he he sent me the copy.

I don't know if I successfully copied all of them, but you can have a copy of it if you would like.

This is what he emailed to me.

Thank you.

I guess I you know, I eighty-five calls, I'm sure that's probably a lot um in a year.

Sheriff, the date the dates are on there.

It's the same copy.

Yes.

Could you answer that?

That is a significant amount of calls.

Uh 85 in a year's quite a few for that particular area.

But I guess my question to Commissioner Healy is you don't know if 85 of these were directly related to homelessness or mental illness, correct?

Actually, according to the citizens in that area, it is.

So I can't say in my area I can say it is, but um I can ask John to show up again and he can say for himself that these are indeed homeless people intruding on their um properties or committing some sort of crime.

All 85 of them, you believe that well.

Just to be clear.

You can read the list.

It says on the left-hand side what they're being called by the police.

Sure, yeah.

And I wouldn't assume I mean illegal shooting, you know, it just I don't know.

That was one question.

Yeah, my next question is my next question to you is your suggestions here.

Um I appreciate you coming with suggestions, but all of the ones that you have provided us with require funding.

And that is a major issue right now.

And so I guess, you know, like while I said, while I appreciate you providing these solutions, how do you implement those solutions if we don't have the funding to do so?

Thank you.

First, I'm gonna say um, where would you get the funding to to building more houses, affordable housing?

You know, we have a situation going now, and all you your solution is build more houses, build more houses.

The problem is now of homeless people.

So if there's money to build houses, there got has to be money to solve some of these problems.

Commissioner Thatcher.

Yeah, that's kind of my point, Commissioner Healy.

Um, you know, there are different governmental agencies that provide funding.

Um, HUD, if you're talking about affordable housing.

Um if you're talking about enforcement law enforcement, you would need more funding, I would assume to address some of these um solutions.

But I'm talking locally.

If you are if your goal is to provide solutions to this community, in my opinion, that is how you're going to have to approach it is through funding.

So again, I'm asking you, are you going to approach the taxpayers of Buttsover Bow and address it that way, or how do you plan to implement these solutions?

Thank you.

Right now, I'm still working on that, and I have to um, since as you all know, I'm a new commissioner, so I will be talking to County Attorney Enruth and other people with more knowledge than I am.

But this is a problem that you're minimizing what people are dealing with in their neighborhoods by throwing out all these uh other issues to take away from what they're experiencing.

You're lucky it's not in your neighborhood, it's not in front of your house.

Okay, then let's let them camp in front of your house.

Thank you, ladies.

Um I'm just gonna go out on a limb and say that 85 calls to Emma Park does show an effort to enforce.

Does show enforcement effort.

I'm really glad to see that there's lots of lots of welfare checks on here.

So that tells me that people care about other people.

Um suspicious person, disturbance, unwanted person, patrol request.

Um, these are these are the calls, I guess we don't know what happened, what the result of any of these calls were, whether there was criminal activity or citations issued or anything like that.

Um I appreciate the report, um, Commissioner Healy, thank you for that.

Um as with just about everything uh written into our ordinances, at least around community enrichment, um criminal activity and things like that, you know, aside from some outliers, most of this type of thing is complaint-based.

Is that correct?

Sheriff Lester?

Uh yes, thank you.

That it's complaint based generally.

Uh if we drive by and there's people in the street and we don't have a complaint or something, we may move them out of the street, but if we don't have a complaint, we generally don't ask them to take any action.

Uh I mean, those calls there reflect 85 responses from our department to an issue.

Now I hear a lot, I'm not minimizing what's going on at Emma Park or any other neighborhood because I always tell our guys.

If you go to a call and you're somebody's asking to see the police, it may be a small call to you, but it's a big call to them because most people don't call the police.

Most people, many people never call the police in their whole lifetime.

So obviously they've they've disturbed enough to call.

But another thing we hear is that these people have more rights than we do.

Well, that's not true, but they have every right that you do.

And that's the question we have is the constitution allows for people to exist, even though you may not like the way they're existing, we can't put them on a bus and take them somewhere else.

That's the thing we hear a lot.

Why don't you get a bus and take these people to Portland or Billings or wherever?

It's not legal, it's kidnapping to take people away from a place where they are to another place without their consent.

So I understand your frustration.

I'm not minimizing that at all, but we have to do things that are constitutionally correct, so we aren't violating people's rights.

Now, if there's a crime been committed, I would imagine that of those 85 calls, there were probably some arrests as well.

But they weren't 85 arrests, and a lot of times we leave and nobody's happy.

The people we talk to to change their action aren't happy, and the people who called us aren't happy, and and sometimes there's no way to do to make either party happy.

Thank you, Sheriff Lester.

Um being that you mentioned um rights and constitutionally correct, it just reminded me that Mr.

Seaton with the Montana ACLU.

Would you like to comment?

Come to the microphone and state your name for the record, please.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Uh, my name is Henry Seaton.

I work with the American Civil Liberties Union of Montana.

Um yeah, we wanted to express a few of our legal concerns here because there was the Supreme Court of the U.S.

decision in grants pass, right?

But our Montana Constitution has greater protections than the federal counterpart.

Two examples being that so for us in Montana, our cruel and unusual punishment statute is also read in tandem with the right to individual dignity, which provides far more protections and its federal counterpart, and then just like the sheriff said, our right to pursue life's basic necessities, which includes seeking shelter outside uh is enshrined in the Montana Constitution when it is not on the federal level.

So we feel that those could lead to costly litigation for Butte.

Thank you, Mr.

Seaton, um, for those for that short education.

I appreciate that.

Um anybody, Commissioner Cow.

Yeah, please thanks, Chairman.

Sure person.

She I got some questions for you.

Please.

You come up here and rattle off a lot of laws and this and that.

What's your answer to this problem?

Can you ask the question again, Madam Chair?

What is your answer to our problem on housing issues?

Are you are you a solution?

Can I hold hold on?

Let's let's take this through the chair.

Mr.

Seaton is here to say that people have rights.

It's ours.

So a minute.

He works for the American Civil Liberties Union.

Yeah, so he's here speaking on behalf of people's rights.

And what has happened in other states, correct?

Is that what you were referring to?

I was preparing uh Madam Chair.

Yeah, I just wanted to point out the ways that the Montana Constitution provides more protections that could make uh urban camping bans legally vulnerable for the city.

Okay, so you're saying they could be the city could be um open to um civil rights violations under Montemoral.

Okay, okay, thank you.

Um I will enter I will entertain um Commissioner Callahan and Commissioner Anderson.

I I assume that you've been all over the state um with issues like this or possibly involved.

So what have other communities done?

Yeah, madam chair.

Um so we've seen, of course, Missoula was probably the most um well publicized and that they had like different areas quadrant off, and we I firstly across the nation we know that these policies don't actually really help um in ending homelessness, right?

Uh when we put people in jails, they're less likely to gain employment and housing, which is part of the problem here, right?

Um and also they're more likely to re-enter jail later on, which would again cost those taxpayer dollars.

So we've seen Missoula try to do something like that.

Calis Bell has a few statutes, whether it's a panhandling, um, loitering, and actually criminalizing someone who's camping out, and we see that be pretty disproportionate and pretty harmful to those folks.

Um and then Bozeman also had camping on the right of way, which we opposed as well.

Okay.

Commissioner Healy, oh sorry, go ahead, Commissioner Callahan.

First of all, I want to complain about you cutting us off when we're trying to talk.

You've talked several times tonight, and you've hardly allowed any of us to speak.

You are the chair, and you do run this committee, but we're all equal on this committee.

Thank you.

I am the chair and I run this committee.

So as I said, just if I'm not looking at you, poke me in the back and let me know you want to speak.

I'm trying to watch everybody.

So do you have a something for Mr.

Seaton?

Yes, I do.

So you come up and I asked you what's your answer to the problem, you said it's a housing problem.

How can you tell us that it's a housing problem?

Madam Chair, um because we've seen these all over the nation, right?

Um we've seen these bans, these ordinances get disproportionately uh lodged at people who are experiencing houselessness.

Um oftentimes that is even more disproportionate for people of color as well.

Um so we see that how they impact communities and how they're being used, and that leads us to believe that they are being used, particularly against people experiencing homelessness and the solution to homelessness is it's housing.

Follow up, Commissioner Callahan.

Well, I just want to let you know, unless you know the individual situations, it's pretty hard to come to us and tell us what the problem is.

The problems we're having with these people here, these housing places have tried numerous times to get them into housing.

They've put them into housing.

I talked to one of the people after our meeting two weeks ago.

Some of these people aren't housable.

So for you to come here and tell us how our problem is, that was why I asked you what is your answer.

What is your answer for people that aren't housable?

That are Madam Chair, I'm not sure I know what unhousable means.

Commissioner Callahan?

They're not fit to live in a home.

They they put these people in homes, and when you're talking money, they've spent money.

They've destroyed these people's homes, they've dispro destroyed public housing, they get booted out because they can't continue to leave them live like that.

So you're telling us it's a housing problem.

This isn't a housing problem.

These people that have dealt with these people say they're not housable people.

These people aren't fit to be able to live in a home without supervision.

And that's where our problem is.

So when you come here and try to tell us what our problem is, and you have the answers, until you're dealing with the stuff we're dealing with.

I don't think you have the right to come and tell us this is this law, and this is that law.

Every individual situation is different.

Thank you, Commissioner Callahan.

Um I'll go back to Commissioner Healy.

Um and and again, you made the case, you made the case two weeks ago, Commissioner Callahan, for supportive services and the incredible need for those.

Would you mind reading your list again that you read at the beginning of the reconvening about the the solutions you had?

I I tried to write them all down, but you had like warming centers.

Oh, I just have a lot of different different things.

So those were great ideas.

Would you read those again?

Um expand shelter access, warming centers, transitional housing, safe camping zones outside of parks.

Service outreach teams deployed with enforcement.

And again, the case management, it sounds like that's some big money issue that we might not be able to utilize.

Thank you, Commissioner Healy.

Um I would love to see this committee work on just one of those pieces of supportive of supporting services for for people who are unhoused.

Um and finding finding ways to um sometimes it can be really hard to house someone who's um got a lot of barriers.

They've they've experienced a lot of not just childhood trauma but trauma throughout their entire adult lives, uh, living on the street.

Um so the answers aren't simple, even though I think we all wish they were.

Um and so as a local government, um we can only do what we can do.

It's um it's unfortunate that our budget just got passed, but um I would like to see us look for solutions to for to implement some of the things that you're that you're implementing.

I believe that we have plenty of ordinances on the books to address criminal behavior, whether um the person committing a crime is housed or unhoused, um, whether the person who commits a crime is um not under the influence or whether they have substance use disorder.

Um I think that adding I don't know what else could be added that would that would change the ability to already enforce what we have, other than throwing more resources at enforcement.

Um so I would be interested in what anybody else has to say.

I did have Commissioner Healy.

Thank you.

Sorry.

So I did write, no single approach will resolve the issue.

A balanced strategy combining consistent enforcement, swift cleanup, and preventative measures with expanded outreach and long-term housing solutions offers the best path forward.

Immediate enforcement and deterrence protect public safety and resources.

So there needs to be something done to protect the citizens that are currently in this situation now.

You know, housing is not, yes, housing is something that's needed, but it's not going to take care of the criminality with the homeless people who don't care to follow the rules and laws.

And Sheriff Lester, you know that there's criminality out there who don't care about following rules and and in laws, um, because they're antisocial, you know, and that's not the way they operate.

Not everybody operates how we operate.

Um I'm here to protect the citizens who have reached out to me and asked me to pursue this.

I serve the people of Butte.

There is a problem, and to sit there and keep sticking our head in the sand and say, oh, well, you know, let's kick it down the road another three or four years.

It's a problem now, and it's not getting better, it's getting worse.

Commissioner Thatcher.

Thank you.

Um Commissioner Shay.

Um quick point to that.

Again, it's not just homeless people that are committing crimes.

I'd like to touch on that again.

Don't know how many times we have to say that.

Second, um Deputy County Attorney Shay, since you are our legal representative tonight, um, did anything uh that Mr.

Seaton, I believe, from the ACLU touch on that you would agree or disagree with as our legal representative.

Thank you, Commissioner Thatcher, uh Chairperson Shea.

Um he is correct regarding the uh Montana has greater protections, not only um what was mentioned here tonight.

We have a greater protection of right to privacy.

That is the blessing of our constitution, I believe our state constitution.

So whatever we do, we've got to work within that parameter because we do have to be careful about how we're going to treat the unhoused and um you know, talking about fines and things like that.

You can't create a debtor's prison either.

And then we create more problems on the back end with the the jail overcrowding, but that is correct.

For all of those playing Commissioner Bingo, Commissioner Anderson is about to go on a rant, so please mark your bingo square accordingly.

This is a very complex problem, an incredibly complex problem.

There are numerous reasons for people to do whatever they do.

They don't like something, they don't like the color you're wearing.

If you wear a Chicago Bulls jersey, evidently you're an MS-13 person.

I didn't know that till recently with Greg O Garcia.

Evidently, if you like to go on college campuses and debate people, people are going to shoot you in the head and kill you because they disagree with your politics.

If you vote against this flag or that flag in this office, people are going to ostracize you and uh unfriend you on Facebook and send you mean vicious letters.

So it's a hard job that the 12 of us do up here.

So please give us a little bit of leeway.

I would especially say that to some of the people on this committee.

Ms.

Healy has done a good service to bring attention to something that myself and Michelle Shea, commit Chairman Shea has tried to do numerous times together to no avail because the can keeps on getting kicked down the road.

It's like, oh, this ordinance would be unenforceable, well, this would be unenforceable.

Well, we're breaking somebody's civil rights while they have a greater protection of this.

At some point in time in the near future, we're going to have to look in the mirror and say enough is enough, and we need to do something to solve these problems.

When we keep on kicking things down the road, and we kick on keep on saying, well, you know what?

I really feel sorry for this guy, and I don't understand why he can't get a job, meanwhile, he has fuck you tattooed across his forehead, or crystal meth tattooed across his forehead.

I've dealt with these people numerous.

Please stay germane to the to the subject.

The thing is that these don't know the thing is distracting.

No, the clicking was distracting.

So thank you for stopping.

And I apologize for it, but no, I know that the police have picked up both of these individuals numerous times, because I have seen them and dealt with them numerous times with past employment that that I had.

What society did a long time ago were to put these people in special housing or in group homes or locked them up, sent them to Deer Lodge more locally, and they could stay there and get the help that they needed.

The state decided that it was more important for this or that than to keep these programs going.

If you want to make a difference, the way it's going to have to happen is for people to get a hold of your senators or your House of Representatives or the governor and just spam their office constantly.

Demand that they fix these problems.

I do not give a damn who you want to sleep with.

I don't care what sex you want to be.

What I care about is finding help for the people in this community and the state of Montana that need it.

Instead of focusing on real issues, our legislative body in this county, and I'll hold myself and others at this table accountable for that.

I'll give you a pass because you've only been here for a few months.

But we need to do something and stop kicking the can down the road.

We need to hold our state legislative body accountable and stop kicking the can down the road.

We need to get a hold of our U.S.

representatives and senators and stop kicking the can down the road.

We need to stop permitting people to be getting high, doing drugs, being a menace in our society.

We need to shame these people.

We need to do whatever we can to get them out of our community.

If that's the police harassing them a little bit, hell, I'm all in favor of it.

I don't care what it takes.

We need to clean up the streets.

We need to stop making it a paradise for these idiots that want to destroy society.

And we need to give those of them who cannot help themselves the help that they need.

I see a lot of you in the audience today, so thank you for being here.

I know my words are a little bit harsh, but a harsh situation calls for harsh dialogue sometimes.

You need to think real and outside of the box sometimes.

So what we need to do is find money to fix these solutions.

When winter comes, I don't think there's going to be a lot of urban camping out there because the people will be frozen.

There's been numerous people who've died the last few years because of the elements out there.

As far as the high rate of housing, you know, let's enforce the border, let's enforce the migration laws.

The more people we have coming into the country, the higher the prices go throughout the United States.

Montana used to be one of the lowest places to live.

Now it's number three in the nation for highest housing cost.

In the last five years, it's went from the low side and to the top five.

So those are some of the problems we're looking at.

We need to focus on education, getting these people help they need from the time they're in kindergarten and preschool.

We need to get them help in high school when we see them falling through the cracks.

We need to be a lot better with education.

We need to get people in there who care about their students.

Far too many of the teachers and administrators do not do that.

We need to take care of people when they're in the system constantly, far too many of the times these people are falling through the cracks, and they're not getting the help that they need when they're in the system.

We need to start paying attention and holding people accountable for their bad action.

I don't care who's doing a bad job, hold them accountable.

And I believe that's the end of my rant for today.

Thank you for listening.

Thank you, Commissioner Anderson.

As always, I agree with some of what you say.

I won't elaborate too much.

Um, but I did agree with a lot of what you had to say.

Um a lot of it was related to supportive services and early interventions, um grade school, you know, children before five.

You know, that's such a such a formative time of their lives, and sometimes the barriers to them being what you're saying are like members of society are formed before they're five years old.

And and a child doesn't have control over that.

And when they become adults, they don't magically get control of that either.

And I would like to just for the record state that the housing costs in Montana are being driven by people with big money, not by blue-collar working people.

And uh I'd like to apologize for Commissioner Healy.

I just said I was just rude to her, so I'm sorry.

Um Commissioner Callahan, did you have something to say?

Did you have a comment on what Bill had to say?

Okay.

What's the pleasure of the committee?

What's the pleasure of Commissioner Healy?

I'd like to make a motion to hold this in abeyance pending my meetings with County Attorney and Ruth in discussions about legal um things that we can and cannot do.

Second There is a motion and a second to hold this communication in abeyance pending uh a meeting with Commissioner or sorry with County Attorney Anne Ruth on the question, Commissioner Thatcher.

Thank you, uh Chairwoman Shay.

Commissioner Healy, I know um Chairwoman Shea had asked you this, but are you planning on just having that dialogue happen at judiciary with County Attorney Enrith?

Are you meeting with him privately?

Commissioner Healy, go ahead.

First, I need to see what he wants to do.

So he said when he comes back from get vacation, you know, to email him and we'll make plans.

So it's not just me.

So I need to discuss with him what he would like to do.

But yes, if that's again, I'm new, I don't know all the rules, but if that's you know whatever needs to be done, I will do what the rules say.

I just don't know them.

Thank you, Commissioner Healy.

Commissioner Thatcher.

Thank you.

Will you just keep us apprised then of what your intentions and plans are on this?

Thank you.

Anything else on the question?

Motion and a second on the floor to hold this in abeyance pending um a conversation between Commissioner Healy and County Attorney Ann Ruth.

Um, all those in favor?

Aye.

Opposed?

Motion passes.

I'll make a motion to adjourn.

All those in