Do you know who you playing yet?

Yeah, bad.

Get started.

Oh, geez.

I'll call the order to the city commission of November 17, 2025 to order.

Can we have a roll call?

Oh I can do it.

I don't know their names, but it's good.

Cindy Perdu Dolan.

Laurie.

Here.

Benjamin.

Matthew.

Chad here.

You say Cynthia, your big one.

Cynthia Shah.

Here and Mary, please.

Thank you.

May we have a Pledge of Allegiant and the Prayer, please.

One nation under God.

Amen.

Is there any public comment on any items on the agenda?

Tonight.

Mr.

Bandrob, are you speaking specifically for neighborhood councils or do you have another topic?

Community councils.

Okay, would you like to wait until that agenda item comes up?

I think I might want to give part of it now and then give the rest of it so we could discuss it if that would be okay.

Thank you.

For and on behalf of the Greeley Neighborhood Community Development Corporation and a triad of concerned citizens.

Reference public comment on any item on the agenda.

Item nine, new business, neighborhood councils.

And the modifications of 3.03E clause currently in the Butte Silver Bow Charter.

Again, as I stated to this commission before, the people of Butte Silver Bow do not, I will repeat, do not want a hundred thousand dollar top-down mandated community council program to what is in other Montana cities and counties.

No, not build the house and mandate that they live in it if they want to or not.

For a community council to work in Butte Silver Bow to be self-sustaining and to move people away from the entitlement mentality.

It must number one have a key instigator, coordinator, facilitator.

I'd like to make further comments later on that be built from the ground up.

Everyone must feel a sense of ownership, be a public government partnership, be recognized by the Butte Silver Bow government, and the most important is give the people some authority.

Relative to community councils, neighborhood commit, number of commissioners, form of government, and their original proposed Butte Silver Bowl Council Bill Ordinance 14-8.

The rest of this I would like to read later on so we could discuss it.

Thank you.

Excuse me, Mr.

Bandrubb, before you do that, while you're ready and have and comment on neighborhood councils.

Can you can just continue on your comments?

So we don't we're going to go to the neighborhood councils on this commission.

We're not making any final decision, but we're going to do some housekeeping on what we're going to do.

So I would suggest if you have some comments on what you want to talk about, you do it now.

Do it now?

Yes.

Okay.

Just a minute, Larry, I'll be a minute.

Again, I would like to call your attention to our consensual recommendation.

We hereby submit the following suggested amendments to the Butte Silver Bow City County Charter.

That there shall be added and deleted to the clause 3.03E to authorize community councils to advise the Council of Commissioners to read.

There authorized a greater Butte Silver Bow Community Council to advise the Council of Commissioners.

The Greater Butte Silver Bowl Community Council to consist of one delegate from each commissioner district.

There shall be an annual district neighborhood community improvement council's assembly of the participants in the various neighborhood community improvement councils within a commissioner's district to select a district delegate to the Greater Butte Silver Bow Community Council.

This was one of our 214 stickers.

How to do it.

This comes out of the Great Falls.

The Greater Butte Silver Bow Community Council shall be responsible.

Oops, excuse me.

There shall be various neighborhood community council improvement councils within each commissioner district.

I call them improvement councils.

They are not homeowner associations.

They are not to have any governance authority, nor law enforcement, nor code enforcement authority.

The formation and function of neighborhood community improvement councils shall be in accordance with the original proposed youth silver bowl council bill ordinance 14, which is available online.

The formulation, approval, funding, and implementation of neighborhood improvement projects through their district commissioner, and on up through the council chair and the manager.

Neighborhood improvement projects to include but not limited to public finance, public infrastructure, public safety, public enrichment, public enhancement of the vegetative environment, public development of economic and land use, health and sanitation, and other services.

Respectfully submitted for your consideration and action.

I would like to add a PS.

I would like to offer to be on as an exofficial participant in the local government study commission subcommittee, as I was in the 2014 Council Commissioners Rules Committee when we didn't drafted the council bill ordinance 14 8.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

Banderab.

Does anybody have any questions for Mr.

Banderob?

Thank you, C I believe this is commentary.

Oh, I'm sorry.

No, no dialogue.

I'm sorry.

Thank you.

Thank you, Sydney.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Oops.

I have a follow-up to have your name and your address, please.

Yes, my name is Larry Winstall.

I own property around town.

And in the Greeley neighborhood, too.

So follow up on what Ed's saying about neighborhood councils.

There really is no way I can communicate with this government right now.

I mean, the commissioner's phone numbers are gone now.

You can't pick up a phone and call them.

I've emailed them.

I've emailed the planning department.

You know, I gotta, oh, we'll meet with you someday.

So it's just you hit a dead end, especially anything goes on in this room.

It's on all these boards or appointees by Mr.

Gallagher, so it is kind of pointless for people to come up here.

It is an aggravation.

But with that said, I still need your cooperation.

We have we have things in our neighborhood, problems.

We have projects that we want, we have hopes, we have things we want to do, and I I can't communicate that with you in this room.

So what I'm proposing is part of your study.

I want to go on a little walking tour in our neighborhood, and I'd like you to visit the racetrack fire department and uh where the Greeley School was, Silverbow Park, and see some of the in infrastructure on my street, my within a few blocks of of my uh house.

And I'd like to do it, you know, early afternoon, couple hours.

I'm just looking for volunteers.

Can I get a few of you to do this with me?

Mr.

Weitzel, I don't think that's in our preview to be um public works officials to look at your neighborhood.

That's not the form of what we do.

We're looking at the changing of the form of government, not infrastructure.

So if uh I disagree.

Well, I know you do, but uh that's what the Cut Study Commission is.

All your uh not no, excuse me.

Not excuse me.

Can I talk?

Yes.

Thank you, um, Mr.

Chair.

Um unfortunately with the public comment, there's no dialogue between, but if you want to talk, maybe during the neighborhood council's new business section, if you want to stay that long, then maybe we can have a discussion.

Thank you.

I want to get the conversation out of this room and down in my neighborhood.

I cannot get hold of your public works director.

He doesn't answer the phone, he doesn't return my calls.

There's nobody I can call.

I get along real good with the uh Metro Sewer and the water department.

They're fixing stuff on my street every week.

And the point is not that I expect you to fix these things or make decisions about them.

The point I want to make is the value of neighborhood councils.

We know what's going on in our neighborhood, and we'd like to have a say in the government.

Is it asking too much for you to meet me a couple hours in the afternoon?

A few of you, and we'll just look at some things.

This is this is where we need to start because right now you do not know how to communicate with the people that live here.

You you hire a consultant to do that for you.

I'm I'm trying to reach a gap here.

Can I get any anybody?

Any cooperation at all?

Again, we're we're not allowed to have we're not getting anywhere in this room.

Again, it's just hopeless.

Okay.

Thank you.

It's like every meeting that happens in this room.

It's hopeless.

Thank you for your comment.

Yeah, right on.

Okay.

Same to you.

We got you.

Moving forward, any other questions so far?

Uh any public comment on anything not on the agenda within the jurisdiction of the study committee.

Mr.

Van Drab.

Excuse me for having to use the case.

All right, batter of 2601 Grand Avenue, But Montana.

For and on behalf of the Greeley Neighborhood Community Development Corporation Inc.

and a triad of concerned citizens.

Public comment on any item not on the agenda.

Subject further to public participation in the decision making process of our Butte Silver Bowl local government.

Whether this commission is going to implement the intent of the ruling of the Montana Supreme Court, or is going to continue to abide by butte municipal precedent on the issue of public participation in the decision making process of the Butte Silver Bowl local government is going to be the most important, I repeat, the most important decision this body is going to make.

As I say it is time for the screen to hit the fan.

Here we are again.

Cases include Great Falls Tribune versus Day, 1998, and in 2023-2025 through 25.

Shodo, whatever that's pronounced, uh versus government office, MEIC versus government's office and earthworks.

County of Missoula versus citizens for open community.

There must be a motion and a second to allow him or her to speak no vote necessary.

You ask why don't more people more why don't more of the public show up for your meetings?

Well this week I have been told that I am an irritant and seem to be an annoyance to this public body I am sure your YouTube viewers have noted this also and have thrown up their hands and say what's the use if you remember who elected you to do this job and consider the intent of the butte of the Montana Supreme Court ruling then to me I believe and I believe most of the 500 residents of Butte Silva that I talked to in 2014 a more encouraging and more appropriate procedure to allow for public participation in the discussion making process would probably be as follows for the commission council I had the same problems in the Council of Commissioners so this is widespread decision gentlemen and ladies at the beginning of the meeting to ask is there anyone from the public who would like to make a comment on any item on the agenda if so would you state your name and the item on which you would like to comment this would limit comment on two important issues and eliminate the need for the chair to have to call for public comment on each and every item as you go through the agenda when the item when the item a member of the public asked to comment on was reached during the meeting for the chair to call on the person and ask him or who her to make their comment before deliberation then have commissioners discuss discussion on the item and deliberation then just before the final vote the chair asking is there any further comments from the public if there is the member of the public could ask to be recognized the chair asks is there a motion to allow if there is a motion and a second to allow no vote necessary but would be an indication that there are at least two people on the commission that would like to hear from the individual commissioner council members that want to additional comment after that final comment the chair should call for the final vote then you would be sending a clear message that the public is not only welcome to come make a comment they are welcome to come and participate I think you all received the email today with Mr.

Clark's reply to the same question.

Thank you I'm Mitzu Rasillian 815 West granted and I want to make a brief comment about fiscal notes for those of you who aren't familiar familiar with fiscal notes in the state government and I've watched a lot of public access government TV lately and so I hear about this stuff all the time any piece of legislation that has the possibility of affecting what is um legislation that will affect how much money the state government is either saving or it is spending with the passage of that piece of legislation requires a fiscal note.

In this particular case regarding our local government, I think I recommend that it would be very useful to have a fiscal note for the major topics that you are covering and that you expect to put on the ballot.

So those would be, for example, the city county manager working group is coming up with one, the mayor election appointments slash number of commissioners working group, maybe the same.

Um, but each of those would essentially um meet with budget and finance and ask for a fiscal note that would include the cost of a contractor, the um for in terms of um number of commissioners, it would talk about what the commissioners we an estimated cost would be, um, what it would cost for any support for them, including health insurance, which we typically pay right now.

Um, and of course, it would be compared to, for example, our chief executive and um uh Jim Campbell's position, which I'm not the official name of what they are being paid and what support they get in terms of holidays and other uh vacation, which we would not be paying a city manager, so that we would be essentially talking about the exact cost comparison between what we have now and what we would have going forward.

Um it's not something that only I think would be appreciated, but I think the public will be asking, maybe not in a public setting, but they would want to know as they deliberate whether or not they want to um move any of your suggestions onto the um amended charter.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Any further discussion on any edge items, any agenda items within the jurisdiction of the study commission, but not on the agenda tonight.

Seeing none.

I will move to the for the approval of the amendment to the meeting held November 10th, 2025.

Mr.

Thieland.

Chairman Denhy, I make a motion to approve the minutes.

We have a motion.

Is there a second?

I would move to second.

Thank you.

There's a second.

Uh all in favor say aye.

Aye.

Cindy Shaw is a second.

All opposed.

Ayes have it.

Thank you.

Any correspondence, any study commission updates?

I have not received any of any other study commission members uh received any correspondence from the public.

Um Matt, have you did you want to do discuss this here on some of the questions that you answered for our chair?

I Commissioner, I can or we can wait until we get to the unfinished business section.

I think there's the topics are in there.

Very good.

Thank you.

Okay, let's go to unfinished business.

Uh the city county manager working group.

Um do we have any update on that from our from our group, Mary?

Um our little working group did not meet today, um, but we we've gotten some work accomplished.

We have what we've done is we took a copy of the charter and we um edited and made recommended changes for um chief executive to city county manager, may adding a mayor, and um reducing the number of commissioners.

Um we have some things that I would like us to discuss and finalize among ourselves before we present that recommendation to you all for your consideration and deliberation and changes.

Um what I I'm hoping that we're gonna do.

We we like I said, we made edits and track changes to the charter on those sections, and we will be providing that to you.

I think you know before that Lori did just this incredible job of looking at the um evaluation criteria that the local government center provided us, and she went through all the public comments and other things that we have and and summarized all that, and it's it's just so helpful to look at to kind of um give us good reminders of what the public and other people have told us and how we can to guide our decisions, and so we'll have that ready for you.

And then um, I did a little thing I went through some cities and counties, comparable, well not comparable, and looked at how many commissioners they have or how their government is formed, especially their legislative branch, and um their pay rates, and hopefully we'll provide that to you.

So maybe maybe later this week we'll get all that stuff out to everybody and so that we can start having our deliberations on.

She has some kind of is two different groups.

We have it, we've just been working on it one, but it is actually it will be two different ballot initiatives that we are proposing.

So I think we've made really great headway, and I think we're ready, we just got a few little tweaks to do, and we'll be ready to give it up.

Laurie.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

I I would also add, I think we're about ready to either meet with the county attorney or send that information.

I think we've got it pulled together in it in a clean enough version now that we are probably ready uh for uh county attorney's review also.

Thank you very much.

Yes, I think that's appropriate.

And by the way, the city county manager working group is the same as the mayor election and appointment and the number of commissioners working group.

So we're moving we're working on all through all three of those issues, so we will ask Bath to come join us and review some of the information that we have.

And again, Mary, thank you very much for the research you did in terms of uh elected commissioners and salaries of of those commissioners.

So that's uh we're on uh a good uh strong way to go.

So thank you.

Is there any uh any other questions regarding the city manager or mayor elected appointments, number of commissioners in the working group?

Okay, let's move on to fire department working group update.

Mr.

Thielen Uh Chairman Danahe, we have at this point not uh had a meeting yet.

Uh Mr.

Steppen has reached out to Anakin chief executive who was out of town and he should be back fairly soon, right?

Yeah, about another week.

Last week last week's yeah.

So sometime before Thanksgiving, we hope to talk with him and we'll have more information at that time.

Thank you, Ben.

Any other um Cindy, please.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Just a couple items, um, just FYI to everybody.

Um in talking with uh we're let me back up.

Let me get my thought together.

So uh the career firefighters union has reached out um for us to meet with them.

Um they meet once a month with the firefighters um who are paid firefighters, so we're gonna work that out to meet with them and discuss things on the career side and just FYI, the volunteers um last week uh decided to create a subcommittee of the five of five chiefs to offer their help in any way um to our working group if needed as well.

And um, like Ben said, we're just getting organized to start collecting information and and figure out what what's uh needed.

Very good.

Cindy.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Uh I was added in as a fourth person to be on the subcommittee.

I I don't really I don't have a laptop, but I'm I'm a face-to-face person, and I did meet with a couple of uh directors of departments that uh to get some information about what may or may not happen if we do try to carve out the volunteers out of the charter.

So I I didn't disseminate that information to our group, and uh I'm looking forward to having a meeting together.

But just so you know I'm I'm on board.

Thank you, Cindy.

Any question regarding the fire department working group updates?

Seeing none.

Uh update on oh, go ahead, Matt.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I'm like, this is the spot where I said for me to answer your questions.

Uh I received the email last week with regards to several questions that involved the volunteer fire department and what the study commission was looking, you know, possibly doing.

So question number one was map of the fire service districts meets and bounds.

Uh Lori provided that.

The question is uh the number of fire districts we can have, given that we're a consolidated city county area, what are the consequences for chopping up the consolidated city county district if we were to cut out the volunteer charter?

Uh I cannot find a law that specifically limits us on the number of fire districts we have.

Um what the law specifically states is that we're allowed to, as we expand, annex new fire districts into the big the you know the central fire district itself, as be at Silverville County expands or any other county for that matter.

Uh currently one of those that we're looking at doing in this county is uh bringing in in the individuals out in Buxton into the fire district.

And that's where you you know the taxation and all that occurs.

The second part of that question, uh, what happens if the this this council chose to remove the volunteer fire department from the charter?

That's actually kind of like a three-piece question that goes into uh some other questions that were asked, so I will answer that down here lower.

The second question was um there was a review of the study recommendations provided by Chief Osborne.

This it came to you guys uh you know early in the process.

The uh it was attached.

Specifically, I was asked if there's anything in that master plan document that could slash should be incorporated into the charter changes under a council recommendations.

I cannot answer that.

That is a question for this council to decide if you want to use or put any of that into the charter.

I am just the guy that can tell you whether it is legal or not or how we need to do it.

So the third question was if there was to be a structural change to the charter with the relationship between the volunteer fire department and the Butte Silver Bow Fire Department, what happens to the equipment?

Is the equipment co-owned?

Is it disputed as to who owns that?

So currently, right now there are several disputes about who owns what with regards to the buildings, some of the apparatuses that are currently uh put into use, and that is because uh a lot of it is titled in Butte Silverbow County's name.

A lot of it is titled in the volunteer fire department's name.

I don't have that specific list in front of me.

Um Zach Osborne, uh the director of fire services has that list.

But I do know, for instance, that some of the volunteer departments have you know received grants and funds, and they specifically own certain apparatuses, and by apparatuses I mean vehicles.

Uh however, there are a lot of vehicles that are owned by Butte Silverbow County that they use.

A lot of the equipment that they use has been purchased by Butte Silverbow County through grants or through tax money.

Also, a lot of that equipment that they use has been purchased through money that they've raised.

So, yes, there is most likely a dispute about that.

But then the question goes into what happens if the volunteer fire department is removed from this charter and they're placed out on their own.

The Montana Supreme Court decided that in 2021.

Uh it was the city of Ekalaca versus the Ekalaka Volunteer Fire Department.

They had a very similar uh issue that we have right now, where the two fire departments became very commingled with each other, where there were you know, the the volunteer fire department was saying, no, we are independent.

The city is saying uh no, you're not, you mean you're municipally owned because we provided you with tax funds, we've bought these things, we own the buildings.

Um the local district court and the Montana Supreme Court affirmed that based on those set of facts, which I believe are similar to the set of facts we're dealing with here in Butte, that the city of Ekalaca owned those fire departments and owned the apparatuses and the gear that was in them.

Um something to be noted on that specific case is the attorney that was on that case that presented that argument that is presented that similar argument to this council is the attorney for the volunteer fire departments right now.

So she went in front of the Supreme Court and she lost a similar argument that's being made in conjunction with what's happening in Butte Silverbow County.

So that goes into part of that first question and this last question with regards to the fire department on the special taxing districts and what happens if the Butte Silverbow County, if if this body you know presents to the uh voters to remove the volunteer fire department from the charter.

So right now, the volunteer fire departments are currently funded through uh an array of things, one of them being tax dollars collected through the fire district tax that is in place by B.

Silverville County.

They're also funded through donations and grant funds and some of the uh uh fundraising stuff that they do themselves.

The volunteer fire departments have also requested that they have, you know, if they are to be removed, um, they want to have you know their special taxing uh abilities restored.

Well, they've never been taken away.

In fact, the Montana Attorney General opinion from 1996 specifically states that they still have their taxing authority.

So the question now becomes is if the volunteer fire department is removed from the Butte Silverbow County charter, if Butte Silverbow County taxing these specific areas, and then the volunteer districts, then again taxing those areas is that double taxation.

In 1997, uh the Montana Attorney General was presented with a similar question regarding uh a public library in the city of Livingston.

Uh the county there and the city uh decided that they were both gonna essentially go in on the public library, uh a mutual resource.

And the citizens there were upset because they were being taxed by the county and they were being taxed by the city at the same time.

So it's a double taxation issue for a similar shared resource.

Throughout the Montana Attorney General's opinion, and at the very end of it, it specifically states in the Montana Attorney General at that time and myself.

I have not been able to find, you know, in the Montana Constitution where it prohibits taxation by two different taxing jurisdictions.

In the Attorney General's opinion, it's the city and the county.

Here we have volunteer fire departments whose trustees have taxing authority, and the county who has their own taxing authority to be able to tax for the same service.

Neither can I find it in statute that says you cannot do it.

Basically, the point of the double taxation is if the county is double taxing you.

If the volunteers were removed, they would be responsible for taxing their own districts.

They would be responsible for developing those districts, presenting them through their, you know, through that process, and then trying to levy special mills for their purposes.

But Silverbow County would not have to do anything.

They would continue to tax those districts, they would continue to provide fire services for those districts.

And when you look at the types of fire services that are provided by both parties, while the baseline is fire service, the overall files fire services themselves are different.

And you can go down the line to see what they can and can't do.

So they are technically two different services that provide fire, you know, fire protection services.

So if the volunteer fire departments, in my opinion, were removed from the charter, they would be responsible for uh leveling levying their own special mills.

They would not get the tax funds that are currently being uh taxed by this county.

Um they would have to go out, they would have to go in their neighborhoods, they would have to find those specific districts.

I would, you know, probably I would not suggest, but I would believe that they would look off of their old district maps, and those would be the places that they would be trying to cover and level levy special mills in.

Um there are consequences to that.

Uh, in my opinion, the consequences are if the volunteers are removed from the charter and they are responsible for now getting their own money to uh through special uh mill levies to protect the individuals that are in their communities.

Uh I don't know a citizen in Butte Silverbow County that you know they're gonna get a knock on their door and they're gonna say, Do you want, you know, you're gonna get taxed again for the volunteer service.

And so by totally removing them from the charter, I think you then create not only this issue of uh who owns what, who bought what, who gets to continue to use what buildings in conjunction with all of the things that Butte Silverbow County currently pays for the volunteer fire departments, which is you know, their uh electricity, their technically don't get taxed on the buildings because a lot of the buildings are BSB County owned.

Um, I believe this isn't the information that you're gonna get from Director Hassler, that uh all of the things that the volunteers are currently getting would then have to come from an additional tax on the citizens, and that's the issue that it creates.

So it doesn't, there isn't double taxation.

The county would still be able to continue to tax because we have that fire district established.

The volunteers could tax if the citizens voted on it and wanted it, um, and that's with all of the volunteer departments.

And then uh yes, there would probably be a fight over who owns what and where that's going, and that would most likely end up in a courtroom to determine you know where things go.

And then again, if the volunteers are completely removed from uh the charter and we're no longer responsible for them, we would then have to go back and look at, you know, uh there's another section in the statute that provides for levying special mills to pay for their work home insurance, and that uh the firefighters retirement fund that they get.

Now, I don't specifically know if the mills that they would be levering covers that as well.

Um, and that would, you know, that's a question for in the future.

But no, it is not double taxation.

Uh, yes, there is shared equipment, separately owned equipment, separately owned apparatuses that could create a problem, and uh completely removing them from the charter, you know, opens up all those possibilities of things happening that way.

There were a couple other questions, one of them being uh the conflicting state law with the charter.

We previously discussed that, so there really wasn't a question that was asked on it.

I think that was all that was asked of me of that.

Are there any questions on what I have found?

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

I've got several questions, but I'll start with one.

Um so it's kind of interesting how this conversation has gone to removing just the volunteer fire department from the charter, because I know that has been expressed by several folks in public comment.

However, we're still waiting, as we said earlier, for Anaconda to weigh in and help us in our study commission.

And that question is removing the entire fire language, all of the fire department, not just the volunteers, but the entire fire department out of the charter and let it become autonomous like it is in Anaconda.

I'd like to learn that.

I'd like to learn about that and what that looks like as an entire entity taken out of the charter and and having full autonomy to decide what to do.

Um so I think we need to go down that lane if we could.

Um respond to that, Matt.

I don't know.

I cannot respond to that right now.

But what I will do is exactly what we did here.

Is I will I will look because I gotta tell you, I I still think Anaconda's fire departments within their charter and then uh others are outside of it.

Um because when I left Anacana, we were specifically looking at expanding the fire district there, and their requirements were actually in their charter for their local fire department.

So I will look and see if I'm missing something and then get uh a good written answer back to you.

Thank you.

Uh follow-up.

Okay, so two quick follow-ups.

Could we get the um list from Chief Osborne with that list of equipment?

You said he has it.

Could we get a copy of that so we know what that looks like and how many apparatus and and who owns what?

If he's got that list, we'd like that.

I'd like that.

I don't know about the rest of the commission, but I think that would be helpful.

Could we m we have to have it?

Can we have that?

You'd have to ask him.

I I can't answer it.

Yeah.

Yeah, I I wouldn't see any problem with that.

But I'm just not gonna speak on behalf of a director.

Okay, thank you.

That's right.

You you should.

Sorry.

Cindy, uh, I maybe Chad could help us with that issue.

Can you provide us with the apparatus equipment from the fire department?

Yes, I can to the uh subcommittee.

Awesome.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And one more follow-up, if I may, Mr.

Chair.

Um so I I this is a bigger question as well.

Um to make any determinations with regard to all of the monetary considerations, special mills, etc.

etc., there still needs to be some fundamental answer with regard to the maps.

What maps are is Butte Silverbow using, what maps are antiquated?

Is there gonna be it's it sounds like there's gonna be a creation of a new map, but what are we using currently?

I think there's just a lot of confusion, so that needs to be cleared up as well.

Thank you.

Anything with regards to the maps?

I can specifically state that there is a current fire district map that it is up to date and shows the fire district in which Bete Silver Bo is taxing the individuals in it.

If we're specifically talking about the old volunteer are the volunteers' districts themselves and what maps those are based off of, yes, I don't disagree.

There is a uh slew of different opinions of which ones apply, but there is a specific fire district map that is in place with regards to how many people in Butt Silverbow are being taxed in the fire district.

That's there.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Um the fire district.

It appears that that fire district boundary that meets and bounds is the same that is was utilized as the urban boundary that's done after the census every 10 years, and it's called the urban boundary limit.

I think it's done by the Department of Transportation.

It's looked at in conjunction with the planning department, and basically it looks like at where growth has occurred or where you have subdivisions that are coming online.

That changes every 10 years.

So if the fire stays in the charter, could we use more of a general term like the urban boundary?

Because it does go through adoption at the council level before it goes on.

So I believe it's produced by the Department of Transportation.

It's reviewed by the planning department, then it goes if everything looks good, it's goes to council for official adoption and then sent back to the Department of Transportation.

So I'm just wondering because basically that it appears that it's that boundary, and if it hasn't been updated since 1996, the newest uh urban boundary would have been 2020.

And if it hasn't been updated since 1996, the newest uh urban boundary would have been 2020.

And so I'm just wondering in the charter if that language is to stay, if we could refer to the urban boundary or something, so that it does get updated.

Because it does what it is is it does take into where we've had growth over the course of those years.

And I'm like, I can't answer the question.

I can't make a comment on how those boundaries expand.

Uh currently, right now, there was a previous resolution put in before uh the council of commissioners to ex like I said to expand that district out into uh the Buxton area.

So there is already in place pursuant to state statute, the ability for uh localities and municipalities to expand uh when they need to um rather than waiting 10 years or rather than waiting on the state to do something, uh the localities can go in.

Um it is a very intensive process.

It's 40% of the landowners, and then there's always argument about is it 40 percent of individual landowners or 40 percent of landowners by you know land volume.

Um because you know, a lot of these places, particularly the one in Anaconda that we that they were looking at doing over there, the the major landowner in that area was Anacona Deer Lodge County.

They accounted for over 40 percent of the land there, but they were not 40 percent of the landowners.

So there's that question there.

But yes, that is already there's already state laws in place that allow for the expansion of fire districts um for uh localities and municipalities to then tax those individuals to provide those services.

But I will get an answer on that question as well.

Yeah, thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Uh first of all, uh a comment.

There's no one piece of this that's more important than the other.

I mean, Anaconda, I'd love to hear from them, but I I also believe that we've had a lot of comments about what would happen if we carved out the volunteers out of the charter.

And so I think that's also very important.

We we have a duty to study those things and come up with some good answers.

So when I I did talk to Karen Hassler and Lori Patrick on Friday, Lori about the taxing part, and Karen on the budgetary part.

And Matt very very well uh described a lot of those things that we need to consider.

But on the list of equipment, like Matt said, many of our uh uh just about everything, the buildings, the land, and all the equipment is insured by Butte Serbo, number one.

How do you extract that out of the equation when you're talking about separating things?

And uh the only thing that they I believe that um Karen told me that we pay for for the is workmen's comp and in in life insurance.

But these are all things that need to be extracted, and yet how do you you if they either are on their own or they're with Butte Servos, I don't think there could be a kind of a combination of the two to make it work.

But I would like to know, and I know Matt's agreeing here, some of this uh land and building uh goes back to the 30s when they were owned by the volunteers.

And some of them still say that on the deed, and then others are you know, probably more recent ones that were built up.

So these are just things that we need to get information first so that we can make a you know some kind of informed decision.

But I I would like to make sure we are careful not to say one thing is more important than the other.

It's all important, and we're gonna have our job to get things organized.

But thank you, Matt, for your help on that.

And if I could make just a quick comment on it, uh yes, uh, she's correct.

Um a lot of these uh properties, the way they're the deeds are written is interesting.

Some of them say um Boulevard Fire Department, but the address is 155 West granite.

Um the same with the one down, uh I think racetrack is similar.

The the address listed for the actual owner is 155 West granite.

So again, that goes back to that uh city of Ikalaca versus the Icalecca Fire Department case that was decided in 2021 of how commingled the two entities had become that there was simply no doubt in the Supreme Court's eyes that the City of Ekalaca owned the they they owned the volunteer fire department in the sense of it was under their jurisdiction.

Um that's you know that those are all those things that have to be worked out, which is why I think having that list uh as Commissioner Dolan said would be appropriate.

I don't want to be questioned, thank you, Mr.

Chair.

I don't have any questions for MAP, but I just have a comment on eliminating the entire fire department from the charter.

I would again, I know we got and we were discussing that as the last meeting because that was that is what was brought to us here.

But I know that the subcommittee is also going to look into different ways to help resolve an issue or to make it better for the community.

Going back to the survey, there was lots of options on there that we need to look at, and I feel that this body's kind of getting hung up on eliminating things from the charter.

But there are other resolutions that we can come to, and I hope that we deliberate amongst those because there are some easier ways to have a better fire service here.

Um there's a lot of complications that can happen.

I know for sure that there are a lot of volunteers who don't want to go out and try to raise taxes for their community.

Um I hope that we don't get to that point that the citizens have to pay more money potentially for the same service.

But again, that's up to them and that this body is here to put forward something that could be better for the entire community and public safety.

Uh that is somewhere in the middle ground instead of such extreme measures of deleting things from the charter.

Um with that being said, the fire district meets and bounds uh was eliminated from the Charter 96, so the Butte Silver Bow legislative body could change as needed, which is a great concept because the charter is supposed to be vague enough to allow the city to go ahead and change with the times.

And if you notice that in all the charters that we read through that were supplied to us from MSU local government, um that they weren't they weren't so specific in their charter with the fire department for good reason because they were run through ordinance, right?

So that that allows the community and is pretty good governance in my opinion.

Um so I would just ask that the subcommittee again, as Ms.

Shaw said, just looks at a bunch of different options, takes the public input from the survey that we got that which I still think is very very valuable, and um continues to just talk with other people and truly figure out what other members with even the volunteers truly want.

We heard from you know one, maybe a couple members, um, but even within those departments, I know that's not the consensus.

And I do believe that there could be a better way to truly make this work.

So thank you.

We look forward to the uh working group's uh deliberations and recommendations.

Cindy, you have a question.

Uh thank you, Mr.

Chair.

No, just a comment um that I wanted to put on the record.

Um, and I understand there's we've got a heavy lift ahead of us with trying to figure out what goes in the charter, what may come out, what gets changed.

But I think we all need to remember and continue to remember why we're doing this in the first place.

We're trying to set a framework for the next 10 years at least, because it took us 20 years to get to this point today.

Um, and really talking about how do we make and and maybe I'll say it again, lean mean fighting machine of beatsilver bow.

How do we get to be more efficient?

How do we have more transparency?

How do we come up with the money if we have, and that's not our jurisdiction.

We don't have fiduciary responsibility, although I I appreciated uh Missy's comments with regard to a fiscal note.

However, I think that we need to still in our conversations talk about how to audit Butte Silver Bow efficiently effectively so we can find money if money needs to be increased, um, decreased, whatever, with regard to some of our decision making.

It's imperative that we keep those things at the forefront and always with the acknowledgement that we're the conduit.

We are hopeful that we can bring something to the community that they can vote on that's clear and concise and what folks want moving forward.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Any more comment, Matthew?

Uh just a brief comment.

Thank you, Chair.

I also think it's important that we look at the feedback we we have gotten from the community.

There's a lot of talk about removing and separating the the largest response group to this question specific to the fire departments was to integrate.

The lowest response group that we got was to uh for the volunteers to have their own budget authority.

And so that's we we do these surveys for a reason, and it's important that we we look at the at the public's feedback when we're making these deliberations.

Thank you, Matt.

Any further comment on the fire department working group?

Seeing none, we will move forward.

Uh next bulleted item is party line will be held on the last Wednesday of every month.

And I think the next party line is scheduled for November 26th.

Who who's going to be that?

Ben.

So three of you.

Okay, great.

Thank you.

Dan?

Yes.

I'm sorry.

I gotta wear my glasses.

It's DA, actually, Doc.

Um I just want to remind everyone that uh Dan and I will be going to the Koanis uh tomorrow at lunchtime, and it wasn't on the agenda, but maybe we will let you know how it went next week.

Okay, thank you, Cindy.

Any further comments?

Okay, seeing none, let's move on to new business and the topic today is neighborhood councils.

Uh how would you like to proceed?

Shall we talk about how we are going to set up a working group for neighborhood councils?

Yes, Cindy.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Um this is a tough one because uh neighborhood councils is a great idea.

I personally, I think having bottom up and um engagement with local community and local neighborhoods is a great thing.

Um I think we could have Mr.

Banderob come up and answer some questions because what he has given us tonight with regard to community councils is way more layered with various councils and responsibility, and I just have some real reservations as to whether or not any community, let alone Butte Silver Bow has the bandwidth of volunteers to do this work.

So I think we've got a lot of questions ahead with regard to neighborhood councils because this has grown into something that's a lot more than when it started 15 years ago.

So with that, that's just my comment, and hopefully we can get through that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Cindy.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Uh oh, is it turned on?

Am I can you hear me now?

No.

Stop.

Uh okay.

Um anyway, uh, I don't disagree with Cindy, but I do believe we need to start with a framework and like the idea that we I believe we are going to have a subcommittee.

I don't think we should just have a jam session right now, which we could, but right now I I would like to you know see if we can't organize something.

And I don't disagree at all with uh Ms.

Purdue Dolan about uh there's a lot of questions and there's a lot of layers, but I'd just like to go to the foundation of getting together something that we can work with.

Thanks.

Mary, please.

I would like to reiterate what Cindy said.

I mean, we we need to it's we need to form a committee.

We've all sat here, we've all listened, we've all gathered information, we've heard Mr.

Banderop, we've looked at other um communities and their neighborhood councils, and it's time for a small group of us to start working to put something together for the bigger group to look at, and then we can debate it then.

But I don't want to start, I don't think we should be starting this debate right now.

Thank you, I agree.

So with that, I am oh go ahead, please, Matt.

Prior to you guys deciding what you're gonna do for the uh subcommittee.

I do have some some legal comments on what Mr.

Vanderrop has presented and what I've heard so far, and then also so this council has an understanding of what the current framework with regards to neighborhood councils is.

Thank you, Matt.

Please go forward.

Uh Commissioners.

Yes.

Currently, Butt Silverbowl County's charter uh 100% specifically states that uh neighborhood councils can be formed, that the council has the authority to form those, and that they can be there.

You know, uh Commissioner Dolan's uh comment is 100% correct.

The request to mandate community councils, which I have heard is essentially an unfunded mandate.

How can you force people in their communities to join these councils?

If they don't join the councils or the communities don't join the councils, are they then penalized for that?

Um this, in my opinion, is in the charter and it's in a charter in a specific manner.

As uh Mr.

Winstall got up here and stated that he he doesn't have the capability of communicating with this government.

I'm sorry, that's just incorrect.

Uh to communicate with the council of commissioners, all a citizen has to do is submit a communication.

One of the best examples of this actually happened last week with regards to the SAB data centers.

There were concerned citizens that had questions.

They submitted those questions in the form of a communication to the council.

All of those questions were answered last week.

It's online, you can get at it, you can look at it.

In addition to that, the way they set it up last week allowed community members to come up and speak on the topic like normal where they give their public comment, but the individual that submitted the communication was also able to present and ask additional questions because it was uh an open hearing style format.

So to state that that our current form of government doesn't have the ability to communicate with its citizens or that citizens cannot communicate with the council, I believe is incorrect.

The uh request to have the greater, you know, the greater silver bow, or excuse me, where's it at?

It's a to give the people some authority, community councils.

The people have authority, they get to vote, they vote in the current council of commissioners.

That is the council that they vote in to try and build into a charter another sub-council that's essentially subverting what the overall voters put into place, I think is going to cause a lot of issues, but that's why they put in there now, in my opinion, that you can have community councils.

Any community in this neighborhood can come forth and state, hello, I represent X amount of district.

These are all the signatures that we've gathered.

We are requesting through a communication that the council of commissioners authorize a local community council for us to bring to you and present to you the issues that are in our community.

The citizens of Silverville County have that.

It's simply a matter of exercising the authority that is already there that they have.

They have lots of it.

And like I said, last week was an absolute prime example of this.

The the Sabi Dennis Center stuff, they asked, God, it was like 20 questions, and every one of them was individually answered with thought, and uh um by the uh individuals in the courthouse that you know had to answer each individual question, um, and that was presented back to and read into the record, and then uh the public hearing, you know, was uh uh then held, and they were able to have those questions back and forth.

So that is my comment, or excuse me, my my legal analysis on the the neighborhood community councils.

They are already, there's already a mechanism in place that allows for them.

The the issue, in my opinion, is not that can we have them?

Um, you know, uh, do we need to mandate them?

The issue is citizens simply don't want to exercise their own right to have them.

And now maybe that's uh letting the citizens know.

I mean, maybe you know, maybe that's a uh uh a media campaign that says, hey, we can do this, we're looking for citizens in the neighborhood, and maybe that could be a suggestion made by this council you know to the current council of commissioners uh on what they should do to show that.

But effectively creating all these individual little councils in the neighborhood that are not effectively elected at large, that then for some reason or some form of the charter now have authority over the council of commissioners that were elected at large.

I'm sorry, that that's just it's it's not appropriate, it's in my opinion not legal.

Um so that's why I wanted to bring up, you know, where I've looked at these and what I think is already there is appropriate.

Now, do I think that there should be a uh you know, smaller committee on it?

Yes, maybe we can buff up the language in it that says that the council of commissioners can authorize uh community councils through you know a request by the citizens, you know, add the additional language so people can know.

Um, but that's what I wanted to say with regards to the neighborhood councils is they are there.

They have the authority to do them, and our citizens have a lot more power than what they have been exercising, and I think it's more of a letting them know what that power is rather than trying to build it into a charter.

Thank you, ma'am.

I'd let him.

Yes.

Go ahead, Mr.

Bandrov.

I agree that it needs to go to a committee.

But I also feel that we need to discuss a bit more what has been the optional proposal.

I also need to rebate some of what our good attorney said.

The people went to the council in 2014.

They asked the council with a communication to recognize the Greeley Neighborhood Community Development Corporation as was included in a $50,000 study made by the city council county abutte.

There was no procedure for recognizing the community council.

And therefore we went to the Rules Committee of the Council of Commissioners.

And the Council of Commissioners Rules Committee put together a procedure as requested, as the attorney suggested.

When I say we, it was a group.

We had the seven households.

Like nominate the manager.

We're asking for the authority to nominate him and to make recommendations as to whether or not an elected official needs to be recalled.

That authority is in some other Montana charters.

Yes, I agree, but here again, I guess you didn't hear.

So I don't agree with the point that we're not going to get volunteers.

Now, if you look at what I am proposing, or what the concerned citizen group is opposed proposing, it doesn't cost a damn penny.

We didn't spend a penny of tax mayor money.

We got together and we reached a consensus and we moved a project forward.

Now our concern was that we the city come down and they worked with us for a year or so and they did something in our community because we squeaked as a community or as a neighborhood, not individually running up to the council of commissioners and jumping up and down, but we came together, and that was the first thing that the consultants on the study said.

You have to get together and get a consensual recommendation.

Well, we need curbs.

So that water will go into the storm drains.

The project didn't include curbs.

So we got a fancy storm drain upgrade.

But we got no curbs, so the water doesn't go into the end to.

So that's why we need a multi-layer function.

Oh, set of councils.

I don't I don't like the word council.

We call them coalitions.

To be able to move what is needed in a specific neighborhood forward.

We're not asking for authority to enforce codes to enforce laws.

That's what we got a city-county government for.

But we are asking for the authority to recommend them and to be recognized when we recommend them.

We went through exactly what they did last week.

But we didn't have any authority.

We didn't have any recognition.

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

Banderob.

Do we have any comments on Mr.

Banderob's comment?

Seeing none, I would like to uh go back to the idea of setting up a working group.

Uh we have a foundation of a number of emails from concerned citizens.

Um Mr.

Banderob has sent us a number of information.

We have a number of information on other cities who have had the process of setting, as Mary said, setting up uh neighborhood councils.

The question really comes to how specific and how complicated they can be.

And I think the working group will have to make a decision as we talk about it tonight about what would look okay for us.

Would it be complicated as Great Falls is, or will it be something less complicated but workable like Helena's was or Missoula's?

But that should be a recommendation coming back to the entire committee by the working group, and whether those recommendations are we don't like any of those, and we would like to have it language in the charter that says you're authorized to do it, but that would be a council of commissioners' decision and not the local government, not the local government study commission.

So those are a number of ideas that are being put forth, a number of ideas that will have to be studied and decided on, and I would ask if we would have any volunteers to work on that neighborhood council subcommittee working group, excuse me, working group.

Chad.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Um I would nominate myself to go ahead and be on that more just as uh what the working groups are is to identify you know what other communities are doing, how we can make better improvements with the community without getting so specific.

I I'm not a fan of being very specific in the charter, which allows us to be run through ordinance and change with the times, as I said before, you know, with the reduction potentially of the council of commissioners.

Maybe those commissioners would want some help within their community groups and neighborhood councils.

Maybe they wouldn't.

I don't know that yet.

How many commissioners they have, who's on their legislative branch, and to just fact-find a little bit more and also um talk with Mr.

Banderob to see if this would work.

My understanding when I when I would read Mr.

Banderob's comments was that it was a level of bureaucracy that a lot of us didn't want, but after hearing him talk, it's not that.

It's just having recommendations to go ahead and give advice to council members.

Now the charter, as everyone knows, and Mr.

County Attorney Androoth has mentioned it allows for that to happen.

And this could be something that might be in the second bucket that we were keep referring to to talk with the council commissioners about.

So with all that being said, I would like to go ahead and be a part of that.

Um I know that everyone else is a part of a committee already.

Um so just sharing time.

My vision of this would just be to fact find what other communities are doing and um streamline that process between Mr.

Bander and anyone else in the community to this body.

Thank you, Chad.

Any other volunteer?

I would volunteer with you, Chad.

And so there'd be two of us so far.

We need one more.

So we will have a working group of uh neighborhood councils uh consisting of myself, Chad, and Mary.

Um so thank you very much for volunteering, and we will uh provide you with information, both what Chad has said and what has and has Mary has done in the past with our other subgroup.

So I think we're that far ahead.

Any other questions?

Seeing none there's no public hearing scheduled.

Any other scheduled matters for the good of the order?

Seeing none the announcement there's no meeting next Monday for the uh leading up to Thanksgiving, I would believe.

And also the next study commission would be December one, where we will look at some of the information from coroner's office and the superfund coordinator position.

Any other comments regarding our meeting tonight?

See none, I would ask for adjournment.

Make a motion to adjourn.

It's been moved and second that we adjourned.

All in favor?

The ayes have it.

We'll see you in two weeks.

Thank you.