I'll bring the Butte Silver Bow Council of Commissioners Committee of the whole meeting to order for Tuesday, December 10th, 2025.

Can we please have a roll call?

One presiding, nine present, one absent.

Okay, please let the record reflect that Commissioner Anderson and Commissioner Boyle are excused.

Two absent.

Can you can you restate that just for the record?

There's one presiding, nine present, two absent.

Okay.

Commissioner Anderson and Commissioner Boyle are excused.

Commissioner Walker, would you please lead us in the prayer and the pledge?

So that we're on our seasons.

Amen.

Next item on tonight's agenda is any public comment on any items that's on tonight's agenda.

If you are here to speak on the public hearing for communication 2025-576, I would ask that you just hold off until the actual public hearing so that we can make it an official part of the record.

So this public comment on any items on the agenda would really pertain to Section 2 communications one through one through five.

So if there's any member of the public that would like to speak on any of those items, now would be your opportunity to come to the podium.

Mr.

Barrett, please state your name and address for the record after pressing the button on the bottom.

There you go.

Welcome.

Mr.

Chair Evan Barrett, 807 West Silver.

Frankly, I would I wondered if you were going to be uh taking uh any uh input or allowing any discussion, brief brief discussion when item three comes up on the agenda.

If you I'd rather speak at that time than this time.

Now's your opportunity, Mr.

Barrett, as a as a member of the public to speak on anything on tonight's agenda.

I'm asking, is three going to come up for at the you know later in the meeting.

Yes, it will, but you're not you didn't that's not your communication.

Uh I was uh asked to be here to make some comment on that.

Well, okay.

Thank you.

The uh comment I want to make on the whole concept of the data center as I continue to uh research.

I'm finding there's still a lot of unanswered questions.

Uh there's a lot of assertions and hypotheticals.

Well, maybe this, maybe that.

Uh somebody could do this and might do this.

Uh, but it's uh very hard to see what the commitments are other than the commitment that Butte made to sell to sell land, which I think was a premature decision in the first place.

And we've uh discussed that at least uh twice before.

Uh that we weren't ready for that movement of selling 600 acres.

Uh and now we're gonna wait till February.

And uh I personally hope that uh they can't they have reasons not to meet the February thing, so Butte could again uh see that it has its input now.

Uh what I do want to recommend is uh increased public process.

Uh there the land was purchased with with virtually no public process.

Uh and uh as we move forward, uh we should make sure we should have uh public hearings probably by uh the TED board out at uh Montana Connections so they can get adequate input so they can make a proper recommendation to you, and some hearing process here that allows the public to be the proper processes.

And as we move forward, we should make sure we should have public hearings probably by the TED board out at uh Montana Connections so they can get adequate input so they can make a proper recommendation to you and some hearing process here that allows the public to be the proper processes, you know, notice of the meetings, plenty of publicity and notice of the meetings, a specific agenda for the meeting, and then of course ultimately uh minutes and and and and full discussion at the meetings.

Uh I think saying that the council makes the final decision, so any comment before the council uh represents adequate uh public input, uh does not do justice to the provisions of the Montana Constitution that say that the citizenry has the right to participate in uh the uh in the public process prior to the decisions being made.

And then you wait till the last second to take public input, you go 98% down the road and expect some uh the everybody to turn around and go back to the beginning of the road.

We need to have adequate public process as we go down the road to make sure we don't make mistakes.

I remain intrigued with the concept of uh of a data center and the benefits it might bring to butte.

I still remain have many, many questions about whether the potential negatives of it have been adequately explored to the satisfaction of the citizenry, and I must say the reaction I get on the streets of Butte will say keep that up.

We need to do no more, and we need to do more as citizens.

I think your your uh your uh citizens of do not feel that that they've had adequate uh process to this point, and we should work to achieve that.

Uh and we have two local two places to do it.

Here is the last place, the TED board is the first place, and it should be proper public process, not just offhand comments and and that type of thing.

Uh so I urge the council to adopt that approach to uh uh uh the the proposed uh uh data center uh and ancillary act uh activities.

So thank you.

Thank you, Mr.

Barrett.

Is there any other member of the public that would like to speak on any item that is on tonight's agenda?

No.

It's her communication.

Okay.

Seeing none uh for the report of the chair, I'll just keep moving on to the next section and get right into the public hearings.

Section one, bid openings, public hearings and/or presentation.

Uh we do have a public hearing tonight.

It's communication number 2025-576.

James Olette, Safety and Health Coordinator, ADA coordinator, requesting council commissioners' authorization to schedule a public hearing for December 10th, 2025 for the purpose of considering adopting of the city-county abuseilbow ADA self-evaluation and transition plan.

Uh Mr.

Olet.

Um County Attorney Anne Ruth, is there proof of publication?

Uh Chairman Morgan, there's proof of publication.

Okay.

Staff report, Mr.

Owlett.

Good evening, Commission.

Thank you, Commissioner Morgan.

All right.

So we're here.

Uh a little bit about this ADA transition plan that we're going to present to you in a self-evaluation and transition plan.

When I got hired here in June of 2023, so two years ago.

Oh, it can't be just two years ago.

Two years ago, wow.

Um, I started uh uh we I met with the chief executive and we started going over the requirements for uh the ADA under Title II.

Uh something that we discovered early on that was missing was a self-evaluation and transition plan, which was um designated in 1990 on the passing of the original ADA.

Uh it was uh obviously difficult uh realizing that we did not have that, but it was also very um exciting because we got to start fresh and um the chief executive and I met frequently and we met with our ADA advisory group, and uh we decided to do it now, right?

Better late than never.

So we uh put out an uh RFP to decide to do it with a consulting group.

Why we chose to use a consulting group, that was also a discussion we had.

I am safety and health and ADA coordinator, so the ADA is part of my job.

Uh I would have to take probably three to five years of just working on this plan, and as um our consultants will tell you, it probably still wouldn't be good enough.

That is why we needed professionals to come in here, because it is an extensive audit that is looking for the compliance with the Department of Justice and with the standards in the Americans with Disabilities Act.

That's program, services, and activities.

And what you have tonight is that uh on July 1st, 2024, we entered into that agreement with the WT group.

Uh they'll be presenting their findings to you here shortly.

And uh they have uh went through all of our buildings, our facilities, sidewalks, programs, interviewed staff, uh, talked to the community.

Uh we shared lots of laughs with them and even some tears.

We had some very moving stories from this community.

And I'll let them speak more on um their experience within this community.

But uh it has been uh one of the most rewarding and amazing professional experiences of my life.

And to bring this uh towards you guys tonight is a great honor.

And so I really hope you do consider it as for next steps after we you do watch this presentation and hear the public um hearing comments from the public hearing.

I will be presenting a resolution for you guys.

I'll give you some more time to follow up meet with me, um, ask me any questions, and then I'll come down to a vote once it goes through the resolution process.

I'm also here to answer any questions tonight.

Please feel free to ask me or our speakers from Chicago any questions as well.

Finally, I um I would like to thank uh all of you all of the commissioners, uh, our chief executive, our county attorney's office, our uh ADA advisory group, all department heads within Butte Silverbow, um, the community members who have engaged, uh, the people with uh disabilities who have shared their stories, um, who have shaped this plan.

It is really shaped by people with disabilities in our community.

Uh we are very grateful for that.

Um I think this is such a great example of what Butte Silver Bow does well.

And this reflects what I know to be true about Butte is that when we all come together and we have that shared purpose of serving the community, of creating a more accessible community where everyone belongs, we can all come together and do something really, really special and something really magical for our community and create a plan so that no one will ever have to feel like they don't belong here, right?

Because Butte's such a wonderful place.

We want everyone to enjoy what we get to enjoy every day.

So I'll hand it over now to the professionals.

Um so please I'll let them introduce themselves and they're gonna talk to you and bring you through the presentation.

But I am here for questions, so feel free to ask your questions at any time.

Thank you so much, Commissioners.

Thank you, Mr.

Olet.

Uh WT Group, welcome to the council meeting.

Thank you very much.

And my name is John McGovern.

I lead the accessibility practice at the WT group, and with me is Shelley Zuniga.

I was the project manager for our work with Butte Silverpo.

We have controls here somewhere, which is that it you get to run.

Uh but before I start the presentation, I want to say that James sold himself short.

Uh it's been a pleasure to work with you, James, wherever you went.

There you are.

Uh if he didn't have the answer to our questions, he got them right away for us.

So his passion and commitment to this project were really evident to our staff.

So we have a brief presentation, but feel free to stop us if you have a question about something you see, and of course, you can ask questions afterwards.

But thanks for time on the meeting tonight.

John, just for our our listeners out there, can you just speak directly into that mic or as close as you can?

We'll do that.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Uh content, we'll just talk about ourselves a little bit.

Talk about the ADA requirements and how they apply to existing sites and new construction.

There is a difference there, and it's an important difference uh to grasp.

We'll talk about the transition plan.

Shelley was the project manager here.

She'll talk about the process that we use for that.

We'll talk a little bit about the deliverables, we'll spend some time talking about the fiscal impact of the transition plan, and then we'll talk about some strategies in conclusion.

And again, we invite your questions as we're going through this.

So who are we?

Uh my name is John McGovern.

I mentioned that earlier.

I worked in local government.

I started my career in Albuquerque, uh, always responsible for programs and services for people with disabilities.

Uh I moved to Illinois, was always interested in the civil rights of people with disabilities.

I think we all know that as elected officials and a staff, we have a moral obligation to serve people who have a disability.

Do we have a legal obligation though?

So I went to law school at night.

So I'm basically a parks and rec guy with a law degree.

And I graduated right about the time the ADA became law.

So kind of right place at the right time for me.

Shelly.

Shelley Zuniga.

I uh similar path, I'm not a lawyer, but my uh spent years uh working in public service for children and adults with disabilities through a cooperative agreement in Illinois, so worked with several different agencies.

Left there and joined John in 2008 to do this work and have traveled all over the country and uh have truly truly enjoyed being here in Butte.

As James said, and I can second that, the community here has been phenomenal.

It started, we started our first trip with a picnic.

I'm gonna say it was an honor of us, it was an honor of the ADA, but it was pretty awesome to come the first week and be greeted by this wonderful picnic in one of your parks.

So uh the community support and involvement is is phenomenal here.

So kudos to all of you.

So our background for both of us is in municipal parks and recreation, but uh in 2008 we realized a restroom in a village hall or city hall or county building is the same as a restroom in a community center.

And so since then we've served about 700 communities from Connecticut to Washington State and Minnesota to Florida.

So most of our work is out of state, and we were thrilled to be able to come back to Montana.

Again, we had several years ago, actually about 10 years ago, done a series of projects for the city of Helena.

So it was nice to be back here.

So let me talk a little bit about the ADA requirements for existing sites.

Uh there was some discussion in Congress when the ADA was being debated about all existing sites have to be made accessible.

That was pretty much a no-go from the beginning.

That would have been impractical to do and far too expensive.

So the compromise was every existing site has to be evaluated, and you have to know what the deficits at each site are.

And then if work is occurring there at some point in the future, you already have the list and you know what to do.

So that is really the basis for the access audit or self-evaluation requirement.

Uh the city county also has to create a transition plan.

So a transition plan after you've evaluated facilities is basically a phased schedule of retrofits.

There's no right or wrong way to do it.

We'll talk a little bit more about the community engagement effort than the staff discussions that we had here, but we try to make the transition plan meet the uniqueness of each community.

I mentioned community engagement, so the goal there, the Department of Justice says that each municipality, each county must engage the community in the process of developing the transition plan.

So that's a really clear mandate, and in fact they say it twice.

But it's not prescriptive, they don't tell you how to do it.

So our goal in community engagement is to listen to your residents and see if they have a preferred order of retrofit.

Our restrooms first, our parks first, our courts first.

And again, here there's no right or wrong answer, and we had great feedback from the community and will talk about how that influenced our decisions as well.

James mentioned Title II, so the ADA includes four key titles.

Title II is the one that's important here.

It applies to the 89,04 units of state and local government across the country.

Uh just so you know you're kind of in a leak company, probably not more than 25,000 units of state and local government have taken this step.

So you are definitely on the cutting edge of uh communities, not just in Montana, but across the country.

Uh Title II is meant to be broad.

It's a civil rights law, so it governs everything that Butte Silverbow does.

It governs policies, it governs programs that you offer.

It governs facilities that you develop, it develop, it governs parks that you have as well.

So it's intended to purposely encompass everything that you do.

This meeting is a program that's addressed by Title II.

So the opportunity for public comment is an opportunity for the public to come, and so that too is something that has to be accessible.

One of the areas that the Department of Justice was very clear about was new sites.

So if there is a new site, then the design and construction must fully comply with either the federal 2010 standards or Montana requirements or your own local requirements if those are more stringent.

In our mind, when we look at a site, we always think access is a function of three things.

Did the designer get it right?

And if the designer got it right, did the contractor do it right?

And if the contractor did it right and the designer got it right, then it's all on you.

Is Butte Silverbow staff are you maintaining it right?

So it's a combination of all three of those things.

When we're at a site, we don't try to determine whether or not it was the architect or the contractor or a maintenance issue.

Some of them are obvious and some of them are not.

You do have an obligation to go back and retrofit, but again, here from the Department of Justice perspective, you do the heavy lifting.

You with our help can set priorities about which sites and which types of sites should be retrofit and in what order they should be retrofit.

We already talked about the federal standards and Montana requirements, but we also use smart practices.

So a good example of a smart practice is a power door opener.

A power door opener at a building is not required.

But it is much more efficient for not just people who have a disability, but for a staff member who's carrying in a bunch of supplies or for a parent pushing uh child or two in a carriage.

So power door openers, although they're not required, are a good universal design option that provides a benefit to the entire community, not just people who have a disability.

New construction, uh this kind of a repeat of what I said, but anything new is defined as anything after March 15th of 2012.

So we still see I'm not going to give you the example that I would normally give you, but we still see new construction at every single client that we have that is wrong.

Either the grab bars in the restroom are wrong, uh there's not a route to the brand new playground.

Um the ramp is too steep.

So some of those, like a playground not having a route to it, I think I'm gonna say that's a design issue.

Uh playground surface not being the right height, I'm gonna say that's probably a maintenance issue.

Um a ramp being too steep, I'm gonna say that's probably a construction issue.

So we do see a variety of types of errors when we see new sites.

I would encourage you through this conversation thus though, so to not think that new sites are always going to be compliant.

Like I said, the architect might have gotten it right, the contractor might have done it right, maintenance might be right, but if there's a failure somewhere in there, then you do have an issue to address down the road.

Existing sites for program access.

So I started to talk a little bit about this earlier when I called this meeting a program.

So there are numerous court decisions that define what a program is, and it of course includes things that I sign up for, pay a fee, it meets on what is it, it's Wednesday night at 7.30, and it lasts for six weeks.

Um that is indeed a program.

But sidewalks are a program, playgrounds are a program.

The opportunity to make public comment here is a program.

So think broadly when you see the Department of Justice and the ADA talking about programs, it really means anything that you have felt is important enough to make available to the entire community, therefore it must also be accessible to the community.

Uh the third bullet point is perhaps counterintuitive.

DOJ is really clear that not necessarily every existing site must be made accessible.

So just a real simple example one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight, nine, ten.

If you have ten playgrounds, do you think it's fair to make just one playground accessible?

What's your vote?

I see a no or two.

Do you have to make all ten accessible?

Should, but do you have to?

Probably not.

So DOJ doesn't give you a ratio or a percentage.

Uh we're not the Department of Justice, but we're comfortable telling you that aiming for a minimum of one of every three of recurring assets is a fair start, knowing that in 2029 you'll replace something else, and now you'll have four of ten playgrounds accessible.

New sites or unique sites like this building would have a higher priority in general because you don't have another building quite like this.

Uh the next slide dips a little bit into the process that Shelly and our team used.

So some of the faces out there are familiar, you may have seen me out and about.

So I participated in all of the trips out here to conduct the evaluations of all the parks and facilities and sites of uh BSB.

So what we do is literally look at every inch of the site, every door, every closet, every entry, the route into the building, the parking associated with the building, if it's a park, the route through the park to all of the amenities, the amenities themselves.

So it's a very, very detailed process.

We use a an app that was developed specifically for accessibility evaluations called Blue Dag.

So on the phone, we have checklists.

I've been doing this 16 years, and I can do it blindfolded, but I still use a checklist because I didn't want to want to get complacent and think doop just whip through it, because that's when you miss things.

So I use checklists and we look at everything.

And so we'll note if it's compliant or not compliant.

So the reports that you got in the deliverables will show images where we saw deficits.

So you'll see some verbiage as well as a couple of images so that you can go back to that site into that location and then recreate where that deficit is if that's one that we're recommending you need to correct.

We use simple tools.

We use a digital level, a tape measure, a door gauge in our phone.

So we can travel fairly light for the public right-a-way audits.

There's another, I love technology, another app off of a phone where we actually walked all of the miles of sidewalks using an iPhone that has LIDAR software and it collects thousands of data points and then gets analyzed to determine where the deficits are within the public right-away system.

So once those audits are complete, as John likes to say, it all goes in the cloud, wherever that is, and through the portals we analyze the data, create the reports, and then those final reports, the data in those get transferred into that final transition plan.

And that's the meat and potatoes of what you want.

That's your working document moving forward that shows you where your deficits are, what you need to correct, and then it's up to the staff to determine how do we marry that with our existing projects and get some of this work done over time.

So other jurisdictions have used some other factors to set their order of retrofit.

I'm going to go through these pretty quickly, and some of these are pretty obvious.

So that's a key part of this.

You want to disperse access retrofits.

You don't want accessible sites to only be located in a certain part of Silverbow or Butte.

You do want to address both unique sites and recurring sites.

There is some guidance from the Department of Justice on how to do that, and we incorporate that into our recommendations.

Stretched out over how many years?

That's a huge question for every jurisdiction.

We always encourage you to meet the mandate, but do so at a pace that is consistent with your own resources.

So physical obstacles obviously is what we focused on for the transition plan.

Our transition plan report also includes the retrofit or the method to remove the barrier there.

We do give you a schedule.

Not required, but you included it in your RFP wisely so because you can't do a plan like this without having an idea of the cost.

So we did provide cost references for buildings and parks as well.

Deliverables I did mention the site reports.

So there will be individual site reports for each of the areas that we looked at.

Some will be a few pages, some will be a hundred pages.

This building, I believe, is probably several hundred pages.

Into that is the detail of what we saw, what the citation we referenced, what the recommendation is and the images.

Then the recommendation language only goes into the Excel transition plan.

And then we also did a program and policy review, so we spent time interviewing all of the different departments in view to find out how what kinds of requests for modification they've received and how they've addressed those.

So there's a program and policy review report.

We did conduct community engagement.

We had two public meetings as well as we disseminated a survey out to the community.

So for those who can't make it to a public meeting, they had an opportunity to give feedback.

So there's a report on that information.

Another one was staff training.

So we were out here and conducted a number of staff trainings, I think in two or three days time.

We talked ourselves out.

And then the final report is kind of the synopsis of all of it.

What what did we what uh standards were we using this against, some general recommendations and some strategies for moving forward with all of the data that we gave you.

And then it's this, it's the final report.

Um a little bit about the costing.

So I'm gonna draw you to the bottom right number, the the very large number.

And we pointed this out in the final report, and I think it's important to highlight it here.

You're you're not a flat community, and trails are a key part of what you provide.

Out of that 34 million, 29 plus was trails.

So an interesting thing about trails is that there's not a final and enforceable standard there.

Uh but trails are, let's go back to the definition of a program, trails are a program.

So you do have to have some trails that are accessible.

Uh and you do have some trail segments that are accessible.

You have some others that could be made accessible.

So there are a variety of ways that you can approach this.

If you're a skier, think about a green hill, a blue hill, and a double black diamond hill.

It's the same kind of a concept.

If you think trails are important, which I think you do, then at some point you're gonna have to increase the number of green hills or green trails that you have.

Uh but for phases one, two, and three, your overall total came in at a shade under 10 million dollars, which for a community year size with the sites that we saw is comparable to what we would see in a flatland city-county combination.

We do have an option uh category too that's pushing 16 million, and then smart practices at 9 million.

So the option category are things that we saw that are not compliant, but we don't think you have to do them because of the program access test or because they may be technically infeasible.

Uh smart practices are go back to the power door opener example, things that aren't not part of the code, but that could make a site more accessible.

Oh, sorry.

Just okay.

You have some old buildings, so that's another factor as well.

I'm getting a giggle from the guy at the camera.

Um this again is typical, whether we're in New Jersey or Connecticut or Arizona or here, older buildings tend to chew up a larger percentage of your retrofit costs.

Ironically, an older building may be more difficult to make accessible, and so making changes there may be technically infeasible.

We talked about a couple of options that you already have in place that utilize technology to give a guided tour of a site that is old and can't be made physically accessible.

Uh and same for sidewalks.

Sidewalks are only recently final and enforceable in late 2024.

But sidewalks have many, many, many exceptions in them.

So think San Francisco or think your some of your own sidewalks.

You do not have to make a sidewalk be flatter than the street slope that it serves.

So some of your sidewalks are going to be difficult to make accessible.

Some strategies, you've done this already.

We urge you to continue this, build and maintain strong relationships with the disability advocacy groups.

Uh that's been really important in every community that we've served, and we've seen that come to play here.

Uh second bullet point is equally important.

Every year, make sure you do fund and implement some transition plan recommendations.

Don't take a holiday and not do transition plan work.

Uh that brings you a visit from somebody who wants to talk about enforcement.

Third bullet point, I think is really important.

My parents told me you shouldn't brag about what you're doing, but this is a time to brag about what you're doing.

You have a lot of, I think, pretty significant accessibility and engagement accomplishments with the communities of people with disabilities here.

And I think it's important to make everybody aware that you that's part of your culture, and you want to continue that.

And last but not least, exceed the minimum requirements.

The demographic wave is here.

By 2030, there will be more people over 65 than under 18 for the first time in history in every one of the states, including Montana.

And that's important because if we pulled all of us here, our incidence of disability would be 13 to 14 percent.

For people over 65, it's a whopping 45%.

So as you age, you're going to have more requests from people who have a mobility impairment or other disabilities to use city-county facilities.

So start planning for that now.

Don't just get by with the one accessible parking stall on a parking lot.

Put a second one in there, even if you don't have to.

It'll pay off and when you start getting requests in 2029 and 2030.

Picture time.

So just a quick ex few examples of the things that we saw and the type of things we're looking at.

So the way the standards are laid out, there's scoping requirements, which is telling you how many of a thing you need to have.

And then the second part of it is what does it look like if you have it?

So the example here are uh accessible parking stalls.

There's a requirement that the slope in the stalls and access aisle not be in excess of 2.08, which is considered level in the ADA world, zero isn't level, you do need drainage.

So this is just showing an image of some slopes that are are slightly higher.

The signage has a requirement to be mounted at 60 inches to the bottom of the sign.

So this is the example of what you're gonna see in the reports.

You'll see a close-up image of the measuring tool and then uh a step back image so you can recreate that.

I believe that's at the animal control.

Oh, geez.

Whoa, whoa.

Sorry.

Um accessible routes.

Um accessible route is defined as a 36-inch wide path with a running slope not greater than 5%, and a cross slope not greater than 2.08, with changes in level not greater than a quarter of an inch, and gaps not greater than a half an inch.

So as we walk through the sites, we're looking for all of those things all at once.

So here, and and again, because of the climate here, same with Chicago, the freeze and the thaw and the everything we have, your surfaces are always going to need constant maintenance.

So we look for those cracks and gaps that might be an i uh impediment to or a barrier to travel.

We're looking for where maybe your panels are sinking and your cross or running slopes are exceeding what they should be.

Oh, wrong way.

Doug on it.

I don't know what I'm doing.

Oh, there we go.

Okay.

Quick.

Whoop, there we go.

Um parks, we're looking for accessible routes to the amenities.

So the gravel or P gravel surface would not be considered an accessible surface.

Amenities in the parks, a certain percentage of them should be on an accessible route and have some adjacent space.

The bench itself doesn't necessarily have to be accessible, but I should be able to get to it if I use a mobility device and sit next to my friend who I'm having a picnic with.

Playgrounds have a lot of different requirements.

One is is there a route to it?

John used that example earlier.

There should be an accessible route to the edge of the playground.

The surface should be an accessible surface.

So either that port in place solid surfacing or engineered wood fiber, as long as it's a certified surface and maintained.

That's the hard part.

The loose fill surfaces need to be maintained level, and then the structures themselves need to have a certain number of elements accessible as well as the ground level comp components.

So that one on the left obviously has the P gravel, which isn't accessible.

The one on the right, the two surfaces are accessible, but the loose fill needs to be maintained up level with the other surface so that there's not a drop to the to the uh loose fill.

I'm nervous now.

Okay.

Um restrooms.

We're looking at uh is there an accessible stall?

What is the accessible stall look like?

The grab bars have a very specific placement and height, the toilet paper dispenser, the doors where the toilet is placed.

Um it can't be too far from the wall.

If I don't have trunk strength and I slip and fall, that dimension there is specific so that I don't fall and get trapped.

Um again, the toilet paper dispenser location.

If I'm leaning too far forward, again the risk of falling.

Operable parts need to be in reach range, they need to be usable without a tight pinch of grasp.

So lots of different aspects that we look at in a restroom.

The public right-of-way data is all GIS based and LIDAR, so you'll get these types of reports.

There'll be verbiage as well, but this is the kind of image you'll see, and it's color coded based on the severity of the barriers.

So that's the kind of data that I collected as I was walking through town with my phone up in front of me.

What's next, John?

Yeah, we hope the commission will adopt the report following your usual procedures to review and adopt such a thing.

I'll repeat the point about being sure to annually budget for and implement the work.

That's just really, really critical.

And I'm going to say that this way on purpose, you know, to urge staff to continue implementation.

Like I said, you have a lot of access and engagement successes within your operations.

So we're not trying to tell you to get going and get busy on it.

We're trying to tell you to continue what you're doing and use our plan as a guideline.

Can we answer your questions?

Thank you very much for that very informative report.

I think it's going to be a great opportunity for this community to just keep investing in itself as as we go forward.

Is there any questions that the commissioners have for the WT group?

Uh Commissioner Callahan.

Thank you.

Thank you folks for coming.

I certainly appreciate that what you're doing for these folks out here.

They all do too, because we're way behind the no matter if we're at the beginning of the list or not, we're still all the way behind.

I just got a couple of clarification questions.

Uh I was in the delivery business for over three decades.

I've delivered 150 year old buildings to recently built buildings.

And I was just curious, because like you said, even some of our newer buildings aren't being made or aren't being built in compliance.

And I was just curious on how this is happening and what kind of authority do you have to have them go back and do it?

Or it's is it on the honor system, or why does this happen?

I'll start at the back if that's all right, Commissioner.

I think you have a lot of authority.

If I'm a vendor or a contractor here in Butte Silverbow, and you call me even after the project is over, and you say, hey, we've had an audit at the site, and we've found a couple things that are not compliant.

I want your business for the next five years, ten years.

I'm gonna come back and help you figure out how to solve the problem that exists at the site.

I do think that there's a logical explanation for it, though.

The 2010 standards were built on the earlier 1991 standards that did not address park and recreation assets at all.

So we often see errors at pools, playgrounds, sports fields.

In fact, I think your single most expensive uh access deficit is at sports fields.

And I think that's because it's new.

It was not unusual if this table was a park to put things in the table, whether it was a playground or sports fields, and then just assume that we were all going to go across the grass to get to that asset.

But we know now that dirt and grass and crushed stone are never really an accessible surface.

So I I think it's taken some time for the design community to catch up with that.

Uh, and perhaps even for the construction community, but they're they're pretty close to there.

We we do see, like I said, at every one of our clients, a new construction project that's wrong.

But I'd say that we see fewer today than we did 10 years ago.

Follow Commissioner Callahan.

Oh, if I could just follow up on that real quick.

Um, and definitely there have been some of our circumstances where the architects were reading the wrong standard.

They're looking at the wrong year, the wrong standard, the wrong code, or they didn't look into the code deep enough to see where the measure is to.

So we had a big job where every single one of the grab bars in the restrooms, and there are about 25 of them were wrong.

Very clearly in the standards, the measure is to the top of the grab bar, but they mounted them all on center at the highest measure.

So they were all a half an inch off.

So it's sometimes it's a misunderstanding the standard or looking at the wrong standard, and that's truly the unfortunate part when that they're getting it wrong from the get-go because they're not referencing the correct standard.

Follow up, Commissioner Callahan.

Thank you.

So this happens, and like you said, you would be our best customer.

But is it up to us to be able to catch this?

Is it is it our responsibility before this building is open to the public to figure these things out, or who who whose responsibility is it for have these people be in compliance?

I wouldn't say it the way you said it, Commissioner, but certainly in your own plan review process and your own monitoring of how the development of a new site is going, your staff are going to be integral to the process of catching it.

I do think there's a piece of this that belongs in the bidding process too.

I think in interviews for architects and engineers and landscape architects and contractors, have them explain in some detail what the accessibility features at this site are and how they comply with the standards.

So it's a little bit of both.

I wouldn't say the obligation rests solely on you, because certainly if I'm a contractor, I'm obliged to do it the right way the first time.

Follow up, Commissioner.

One more.

So in the example you talked about the half inch, I've heard of places this has happened.

So when they have to go back and adjust that, does the architect have to fork the cost, or they just do a change order and the taxpayer or somebody else turns around and gets stuck with the bill?

Commissioner Callahan, you're gonna guess my answer, but I'm gonna say it depends.

You know, if it if you still have the retainage, then you're in a stronger position.

If it's a vendor that has done work with you for 10 years and wants to do it for another 10 years, you're in a stronger position.

If it's somebody from out of state that came in, uh gave you the low bid and left town, uh, then that's not as strong a position.

So uh it it really depends on the project and and how how difficult the retrofit or the correction would be.

Thank you.

Okay.

Any other questions?

Commissioner Healy, and then Commissioner Shea.

Thank you, Chair Morgan.

Um I have a question just from an observation.

There's um an alley that's not paved, and there's a woman with her disabled, very disabled son, and I watch her trying to push the wheelchair down.

They did put gravel on it, but it still sinks because when the ground's wet, it sinks.

And where she has to meet the bust, the school bus.

How do you approach that?

I don't even know where to start.

John A lot of jurisdictions have a you request the modification, and we will attempt to make it in particular with regard to right-of-way assets.

So I would include an alley there.

We know from our own experience, and I'm sure Montana DOT uses the same scale, that there are certain size stones in crushed gravel that can be made to be an accessible surface, but many are not.

Uh we generally recommend to a jurisdiction that if you're going to use crushed stone, that every single stone has to be smaller than one-fourth of an inch.

And it has to be compacted.

Uh, if they're larger than that, they're they're not gonna be a good surface from an accessibility perspective.

Uh Commissioner Healy.

So thank you.

Um so would I start with James and have him come look at it?

Um that's what I'm saying.

I don't know where to start.

I think this is out of our bailiwick will chief executive gallery.

We'll pass it on to the chief executive.

Thank you, Chairman Morgan, Commissioners.

Uh Commissioner Healy, that would be a report to us, and and so we would do an assessment of of that.

So I mean uh we just like our sidewalks, everything like that, it would be a report to us what and we would try to you know address what we could there.

Um but what what we're addressing here is is public facilities that was assessed here, and so um but when it's uh uh a specific issue, you'd want to come to us during that time.

Thank you.

Okay.

John, I would just have a question kind of in regards to that with reasonable accommodation would would have to come in on a lot of these projects, I would think that you know, if if there was if there was a way to make it more accessible that was still feasibly acceptable, that would come in.

If it was something that wasn't able to be accessible because of the true cost, what's the leeway on that?

We talked about cost.

We had a meeting with leadership staff today.

So there is a concept of undue burden.

So if I come to you and ask for a reasonable modification, you do not have to do it if it's an undue burden.

So undue burden is undue economic burden, uh undue administrative burden, which basically means you can't find the expertise to do what we've asked you to do, and then fundamental alteration in the nature of the program or service.

Um let me start with that one and then I'll get to economics.

If you have a sand volleyball court and I'm a mobility device user and I want to play, and I come in and I ask to have the sand volleyball court paved, could you do it?

Is it a simple enough task?

It is.

But that fundamentally changes sand volleyball to asphalt volleyball.

So I would say that that's a fundamental alteration.

The economic one is a little more tricky in part candidly because of your size.

Your operating budget is north of 150 million.

So let's just assume that at any given time you have eight positions open and you have five thousand dollars in salary savings for each position, eight times five is 40,000.

That's 40,000 that you could redirect towards the making of a reasonable modification.

So the Department of Justice cautions jurisdictions to don't look at the program that the request is being made about.

Don't look at the department that that program is in, but instead look at the entire operating budget for the jurisdiction.

So it's a that's a tough one to win that argument.

Okay, thank you.

Commissioner Shea.

Thank you.

Um Chairman Morgan.

I was going to call on James.

I want to thank you guys for all of your hard work.

And um also James as well.

You really opened my eyes to things that I didn't see.

I didn't notice.

And it's it's pretty shocking um when you realize how how kind of ignorant you are to the needs of others.

And so I want to thank you for bringing that to the forefront.

I want to thank James for bringing that to the forefront.

It's been really wonderful to watch the process.

I'm really excited about the transition plan and the implementation plan.

Um so I want to kind of wanted James to talk a little bit about the implementation plan if he could, and um just to clarify that this transition plan is for Butte Suburb properties.

It's not for us to make private businesses to conform to the transition plan that we have.

And then maybe just tell us a little bit about your vision for the implementation plan and if you have maybe any ideas so far about what your top three maybe priorities would be.

James.

Thank you, Commissioner Chair, and thank you, um Commissioner Morgan, and thank you, Commissioner uh Shea.

Uh yeah, so for for that answer, if you guys have any questions, you can always reach out to me.

Uh and if you uh so again, I have to stay within Title II, because I'm a Title II ADA coordinator, so like Commissioner Shea said, but a lot of times we do get grievances.

Uh there's an online reporting system in Title II, it outlines how that works.

They all come through me.

Uh and what happens is when I view it, I can then forward them on to say Ability Montana, who then can handle a private matter.

Um, and I could I can direct them that way, and for an advocacy group to take over um things that are out of my scope.

So always feel free to contact me, and if I can't give you the answer, I can find someone that can get you the answer anytime.

Um as for implementation, so uh we have um uh a few steps.

Once it's gonna be passed, we are going to break these down into departments.

We're gonna talk with the department directors, and we're gonna see uh a lot of those low-hanging fruits.

And once you look at the ADA transition plan, you'll see a lot of zero dollar costs.

For example, I just mentioned something called the grievance procedure.

Uh one of their recommendations is actually changing that name.

They the ADA uses the word grievance, so we just use we adopted the word grievance.

Um, but they say, you know, make something that is that seems like it's a solution-based, that it's less adversarial.

Now that's not going to take any dollars uh amount of money, but there's many things like that.

Uh looking at our policies, our ordinances, our um programs from an administrative spot, whether that's doing staff trainings, uh, that could help that.

So there's a lot of those zero dollar ones.

Uh then working with the chief executive and uh the directors, uh again, I I can just make recommendations and provide the information, but uh this is an active and a live plan.

Cassie Wick I have to report to them um on our updates I have to provide updates where we are what projects we're working on and then from those committees I have to write a report and deliver it to the chief executive so the chief executive will be getting reports as well as the ADA advisory committee also asking me for updates.

So this is going to be very much alive and well if you read the report the WT group so thankfully put my name on every single page with my phone number so I'm very thankful for that.

Oh my North Dakota address but yes that's a little bit about the implementation and so our goals is to to kind of work at this you can't get to wonderful without passing through all right and so those are some things that we got to work on step by step and I'm I'm I'm I'm committed to to putting in that work and I know Butte Silverbow employees and our chief executive and the council of commissioners also share that as well.

Commissioner Shea any follow-up no chief executive gallagher thank you Chairman Morgan and Commissioner Shea I just want to answer to kind of the priorities we will have to establish a budget that is addressing um some of those although low-hanging fruit but we also are going to have some high priority um uh initiatives that are going to cost and so we're going to have to to put budget authority into those and and work on an implementation plan um you know talking with the WT group it's kind of a you know I I hate to say it's gonna take 20 years but at the you know how many um deficiencies and in and improvements that we need to make it's gonna take that time but we're going to we'll sit down and we'll establish resources that we need to do and what are the highest priorities of what those are going to be so that's going to take some time as we go through our budget process and establish those working with our with our different directors I know our our uh of course public works will be part of it but as you've heard a lot of it is through parks and recreation and so we'll be working a lot um I think uh um director Fredericson said this is the parks plan um or um transition plan but well I think that this is the first step and it's it shows a commitment to do this now the next is the implementation so we'll have to go through those pro that but we're gonna have to establish budget to put towards that question Commissioner Thatcher.

Uh thank you Chairman Morgan just on that uh James you can answer it I I guess anybody could answer this and it it might seem silly but um just within that dollar amount is that something that like the phase one through three was nine point six million bucks uh the overall total being 34.9 is that something that includes like all of the labor in is that all in cumbersome or is that just specifically what we see as updates or does that include you know the RFP processes the contractors all all of that it's typically John can you just cover the mistake thank you it's typically the cost of the materials and supplies so it doesn't include labor costs there was mention about the low-hanging fruit in the transition plan you'll see that it just says staff time uh but typically the uh other types of projects don't include that follow up commissioner thatcher thank you chairman morgan thank you and thank you james um I know there are many of us in in the community as Commissioner Shea alluded to that are quite ignorant to the things that we cannot see and so I just very much appreciate you bringing this to light I know that many people will benefit from this and you know this could be any single one of us that will need something like this tomorrow.

So I just hope we all consider that moving forward so thank you.

Mr.

So when we go through that, there are already things that we can be checking off.

Uh there are things that uh Zane and I or uh and um Karen Burns' department have already been addressing with uh as we're moving along.

So we didn't just put everything on on hold.

So uh right now I can't really speak towards that budget, and I can give that back to the chief executive.

But uh in all of our projects, especially the the new ones moving forward, uh they're going to be uh compliant within the ADA.

And as well, um, and I just want to mention this also really quick as a funding source.

Uh I work with with the community development department uh very close with Karen Burns and DOT.

They have some really great grants out there, and we are putting in a lot of time to get those grant applications together and submitting them.

Um so there are opportunities uh outside of just the operations budget, but I can give that back to the chief executive.

Okay.

Uh Chief Executive Gallagher.

Um thank you, Chairman Morgan.

Just a quick we we can address some of these within our capital improvement plan as well.

So some of these things can be built into the things that need to be done that have ADA in the translation plan affect it within them.

Okay.

Any other follow-up from the commissioners?

Oh Commissioner O'Leary.

Thank you, Chairman Morgan.

I I think this question is for uh for John and Shelly.

Appreciate you both coming up here and and uh make it this presentation.

Uh I'll read it reiterate the same uh appreciation the rest of the commissioners have said.

You uh I have a couple questions that are I think related to each other.

You brought up uh you said the word technical in ph infeasibility, and I'm assuming that that has a legal definition of some sort.

And I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about that uh and in the context of our community.

It does.

It's well defined in the Title II regulation and then amplified in the design standards themselves.

So technical feasibility applies in two types of environments.

One is a building.

So I'll just use this building as an example to make the point.

So none of this is feasible in itself.

But if you were going to turn this into office space and you wanted to put a bathroom in that corner, and you had to enlarge it, and that is a load-bearing wall, then you would not have to make it meet the technical dimensions for an accessible restroom.

If you have to alter a load-bearing wall or structure, then it's technically infeasible.

Outdoors, if you have naturally occurring steep terrain or boggy terrain, then you do not have to meet the technical requirements either.

So it's a limiting factor.

We would usually recommend that if you're doing work in 2028, that either your architect or a structural engineer talk to you about the building at half of this, and a landscape architect or a civil engineer talk to you about the exterior assets.

Follow up, Commissioner O'Leary.

Thank you, Chairman Morgan.

Appreciate that.

And you know, we you also brought up uh the historic nature of our community, and of course, many of our buildings are historic in in uh in nature, it's very hard to modify them without you know messing with uh the way that they look and uh wondering of you to speak to how we should think about that, what what our approach should be.

Yes, historic sites are not exempt, so historic sites do have to be evaluated, but you are under no obligation to remove the barriers if the state historic preservation officer says doing so would threaten or destroy the historic significance of the site.

So I'll use a Chicago example to show you that this is not a mandate, it's a it's more permissive.

Uh the Chicago Bears and the Chicago Park District wanted more luxury boxes at Soldier Field.

So they changed it.

It was on the historic register, and they put what looks like a flying saucer on top of it, and they got more revenue out of that.

Um so there are ways that you can do this.

They did keep the columns in the in the front of Soldier Field, so those still remain on the historic register.

So this is really an issue to bring up with the state historic preservation officer.

Okay.

All right.

Any other questions?

All right.

Well, seeing seeing none from the commission at this time, I would just open for uh the public hearing for any proponents.

If there's any member of the public that would like to speak as a proponent for this, now would be your opportunity.

Um please state your name and address for the record.

Cassie Wick, 820 West Mercury Street, District 10.

Um and I'm an advocate at Ability Montana.

I want to thank everyone who made this plan happen.

It's been really special to be part of this and to hear these voices.

So I'm here today in strong support of the ADA transition plan and respectfully urge you to approve it.

The Americans with Disabilities Act was passed in 1990, 35 years ago.

It was a landmark civil rights law intended to ensure that people with disabilities can participate fully in our communities.

But while the ADA established the rights, it did not automatically build the infrastructure.

Communities across the country, including ours have spent decades trying to catch up.

Many of the barriers people face today, broken sidewalks and accessible buildings, unsafe crossings, should have been resolved long ago.

And that's why this ADA transition plan is so important.

This plan offers a clear actionable roadmap for identifying barriers, prioritizing improvements, and holding ourselves accountable for progress.

It gives Butte Silver Bow the opportunity to move from simply reacting to accessibility issues to strategically planning for safety, independence, and inclusion.

For many people with disabilities, simply leaving the house requires extensive planning.

They must consider whether sidewalks are passable, whether curb ramps exist, whether they can safely cross a street, whether there's a usable restroom, or whether they can open a door to enter the building.

That level of daily stress just to participate in community life is something many people don't have to think about.

When we build a community where that stress is reduced or removed, everyone benefits.

This is how community is built.

Approving this plan is a meaningful step toward fulfilling the promise of the 88A and ensuring Butte Silver Bow is a place where people of all ages and all abilities can move freely and safely.

Thank you, Ms.

Wick.

Any other proponents?

You got it.

Welcome.

Please state your name and address for the record.

Take your time.

Hi, my name is Lucy Galaris.

My address is 15 Sawmill Gulch Butte, Montana.

I urge you to do this transition plan because it's the right thing to do, and I would like to participate in my community just like everybody else, without mom and dad having to follow me around all the time, because that's what currently is happening.

Because the sidewalks suck, and we need to fix that, please.

As someone who can't drive.

And those things don't involve your parents following you around to do them.

So the transition plan would allow me to uh participate fully.

Um feel safe in my community to get around independently in this lovely wheelchair that I have.

And right now that's not possible or safe.

Um so having this transition plan will allow that to be possible and safe.

Um, as well as for everybody else who aren't college students, um, be able to fully participate in their communities as they want to and need to.

Um those of us who might not have a family who's willing to drive us at 7 30 at night and pick us up at 9 p.m.

Um to such things as this.

Um it's um very important that um we get some of these things done so that I can get around Butte whenever I want and can participate in all activities and programs, the all-important word.

Um please do that, please.

Thank you very much.

Lots of traffic tonight.

Welcome to the meeting.

This is for proponents.

Please state your name and address for the record.

Hello, my name is Alice De Shea at 1900 McKinley Avenue.

I'm in District 6.

I'm here to ask for your support of the ADA transition plan and ask you to adopt the plan.

It will do nothing but make Butte a more inclusive place for everyone.

Accessibility is an invitation for all voices to be heard and included in our community.

Butte is a lovely melting pot of all nations.

Please consider those with disabilities as part of that great melting pot that is Butte, Montana.

Thank you.

Thank you for the comments.

Welcome.

Please state your name and address for the record.

My name is Suzanne Nashby at 121 Police Drive in my district is number one.

I am here today to express my very strong support for Beauty Silver Bowl AD Transition Plan.

This plan is vital to is a vital step towards making this community accessible to all residents and visitors, including people with disabilities, older adults, and families.

I hope you approve this plan.

It'd be great for beauty community.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Thank you for your comments.

Thank you.

Welcome.

Please state your name and address for the record.

My name is Michelle Lewis.

My address is 3400 Heel Avenue number 101.

Good evening, Mr.

Chair and members of the Commission.

I reside in District 6.

Mr.

Fisher, you are my commissioner.

I'm here tonight to express my strong support and ask you to adopt the ADA transition plan.

I have come before this commission in the past asking for greater access to my community.

Thank you for hearing my plea on those occasions.

Once again, I am asking for greater access.

You have before you a comprehensive blueprint to this endeavor.

I'm so excited that Silver Bow County has this opportunity to bring forward the tenants of the Americans with Disabilities Act enacted over 30 years ago.

Adopting this plan puts Butte Silver Bow on the map as a leader of counties in creating inclusive communities where all citizens have greater access to food, amenities, and community events.

A place where all are welcome.

We will be more accessible to tourists and visitors, helping our businesses thrive and increase the access, safety, and overall well-being of the citizens throughout the county.

Accessible communities are thriving communities.

With this plan, the future is accessible.

So please say yes and adopt this transition plan.

Thank you.

Thank you for your comments.

Welcome.

Please state your name and address for the record.

My name is Heather Raymond.

Eric Miguel Mike Karen's commissioner.

I think it is good for the butte to have a plan to the best community for everyone.

Please proper.

Thank you for your time.

Thank you for the comments.

I would ask for a second call for any proponents.

Welcome.

Please state your name and address for the record.

Dave Hutchins, 529 South Colorado.

I'm here in support of the transition plan.

I really appreciate that this inventory's been done.

I think it's really important that we share everything we have, the shared infrastructure, our amenities with the entire community.

Also improves life for children, for those on bicycles, for people with uh shopping carts or uh kids in uh strollers.

So I think every example you look at with these um improvements, they're gonna benefit all of us.

And I just want to make one quick point that I think maybe is outside of the scope of this um inventory and transition plan, but I think the biggest barrier that I see day to day is snow removal on our sidewalks.

Um I think that's a low-hanging fruit that um this body could help um encourage enforcement and um the programs that are helping neighbors help neighbors with snow removal.

So thank you.

Thank you for your comments.

Welcome.

Please state your name and address for the record.

Good at uh good evening, Chair Morgan, members of the Council for the Record, Clayton Elliott, E L L I O T T.

I reside at 2802 State Street.

I have the distinct pleasure to be represented by Commissioner Shea in this body.

Uh one of Rise's a proponent today for the transition plan.

My professional career has the opportunity gift to take me around the state and uh really have given me an understanding of the importance that a welcoming, safe and accessible community provides for the economic growth and opportunity.

I'm excited that Butte Silverboat can be a leader in that effort in the state of Montana.

Certainly better is always possible, and that's what the spirit of this uh transition plan is.

I've had the opportunity, as many of you know, to experience this process from a firsthand perspective.

Uh, but also had the opportunity when I moved to Butte to see my community through an entirely different lens.

Uh my roommate and friend who I moved to town with, uh, and this speaks to Commissioner Thatcher's uh perspective or comment earlier about each and every one of us, our lives can change in one day.

Uh and Abigail St.

Lawrence was my roommate, and I actually have a letter here to read on behalf of her.

Uh she had a stroke.

I was in the in the uh kitchen with her when she had that stroke, and it was a tremendous experience to see this community through the lens of a person with disabilities.

Uh I'm gonna be brief.

Uh I do this professionally, and I know that reading a long letter isn't something that you uh need to do on a on an evening like this.

So I'll submit that in uh in writing to you.

Uh but Ms.

St.

Lawrence says during my time in Butte, I was able to work in my therapy and both at home in St.

James.

The therapists at St.

James were excellent to work with, but Uptown Butte has steep stairs everywhere, and I do mean everywhere.

My Queen House on Excelsior was exquisite, but after my stroke, I had a whole new appreciation for going up and down stairs, even within the house itself.

I'm confident Butte's on its way to becoming an ADA, a great ADA compliant community in Montana, and I look forward to seeing Butte Silverbow.

What Butte Silverbo does when I go back to Butte for things like the fabled St.

Patrick's Day and Folk Festival.

Now I do live in Great Falls, but I still have so many friends in Butte.

I look forward to seeing what you do with the ADA transition plan.

Thanks so much for letting my share letting me share my experience with you as commissioners.

So uh with that, uh appreciate the work that's gone into this, appreciate the transition uh plan and ask for you to support it.

Uh thank you for the opportunity to speak to me.

Thank you both for your comments.

Welcome.

Please state your name and address for the record.

Thank you.

My name is Melanie Ray Went.

I am of one uh 1415 Utah Avenue, Bontana, and I am speaking to passionately ask you to pursue this transit plan or transformation plan.

Um I am not coming to you as a politician or as a professional in this regard in any aspect.

I am coming to you as an artist and as a very, very proud fifth generation butte girl.

Um I myself was very ignorant to the struggles until I had the pleasure of working with James, and we have worked at the Covelite Theater on quite a few productions together.

And as many of you know, that is a beautiful example of Butte history, of butte culture, of butte architecture, and it's not very compliant whatsoever.

We have the distinct pleasure of having free movies every Wednesday night, and I was able to run those for a while, and after speaking with James and just hearing about some of the easy things we can implement to make our city a lot more accessible for people.

I threw on subtitles, not the movies.

And the amount of people that came up to me after the fact and said I didn't know how helpful that could be.

Thank you for your comments.

Welcome.

Please state your name and address for the record.

Good evening.

Good evening, Chairman, Council Bradenheir, 1100 Steel Street.

I come before you uh with two perspectives.

One as a business owner.

Uh my wife and I run Black Dog Creamery, and I believe no one should have limited access to ice cream.

And secondly, I come before you as a father uh of two wonderful daughters that are still very small, riding bikes, uh, and and another that we push around in a stroller.

And one of the stark things I I realized um moving to Butte, Montana is that it was unsafe to walk around just our neighborhood, not alone uptown.

Um, unfortunately, with the sidewalks.

Uh and we on a few occasions have had to go out into the road with our stroller in order to go around to more accessible um right of way.

And I think it's unfortunate, but I think it's correctable, and I appreciate uh the audience here today to be able to take in this transition plan, and I would encourage it's a adoption for the safety of my children for future children for the aging population, those with disabilities, and I agree greatly appreciate your time.

Thank you.

Thank you for your comments.

Welcome.

Please state your name and address for the record.

Mr.

Chairman, members of the council, Evan Barrett, 807 West Silver.

You may have noticed me kind of gimp up here a little bit.

I'm having uh we're I just a reminder, you you know, and by the way, I want to compliment each of you on your commitment to public service.

This is emblematic of what your public service really is all about, and it is about serving all of Butte.

And this reminder you've heard from several people, which is uh this isn't this this is now people about everybody who have people that have access challenges now.

It's about us all.

I just had the experience of about three months of having to find handicap parking and having to find uh ways where there are no stairs.

How do I get places because of knee surgery that I had?

So we're all close to that.

Every citizen, every voter of Butte is in need of a good plan, such as Butte will have by following this, and I urge you uh to move it forward.

Thank you.

Thank you for the comments.

Third and final call for proponents.

Welcome, please state your name and address for the record.

Good evening.

My name is Jack Roscoe.

I am actually a visitor from over in Whitehall, so I live on the Whitetail Road.

But I want to emphasize how important it is to also include the visitors, even though I live in a different town.

I come over to White or I mean Butte quite often.

I work with Ability Montana, and I want to thank all of you tonight for taking the time to listen to us and the proponent commenters.

And uh thank you guys.

Thank you, Shelley, thank you, John, thank you, James.

Thank you for your comments.

Any other proponents?

Okay, seeing none at this time, I would move to any opponents.

First call for opponents on this communication for the public hearing.

Second call for opponents.

Third and final call for opponents.

Seeing none, I will close the public hearing for communication 2025-576.

Thank you all for your time tonight.

Moving on to section two communications, communication 2025-249.

Patty and Chris Salmanson requesting council commissioners' approval to purchase a portion of land owned by Butte Silver Bow, which is adjacent to their property located at 17 Tullamore Street.

We'll continue to hold this in abeyance, pending a report back from the land sales committee.

Number two, communication 2025-520.

William F.

McGuinness, 807 North Montana Street, Butte, Montana, requesting Council Commissioners' authorization to purchase property on parcel number 000 1905650.

We did take action on this communication last week, Commissioner Thatcher.

Thank you, Chairman Morgan.

At this time, I'd like to make a motion to place on file communication number 2025-520 and cross-reference with communication number 2025-582.

Okay, there's been a motion made and seconded to place communication 2025-520 on file and cross-reference with 2025-582.

Is there anything on the question?

Would the council please vote?

Commissioner O'Leary.

Maybe okay.

Would anyone like to change their vote?

Would the clerk please record the vote?

10 yay, 0 nay.

Thank you.

Motion passes.

Number three, communication 2025-546.

Sarah Bordoon, Butte Montana requesting Council of Commissioners to answer some questions from October 16th, 2025 public forum beyond the boom on November 12th, 2025 regarding the impacts of the data center that may be coming to Butte Montana.

Before I turn this back over to Miss Bordoon for her as it is her communication to make comments on.

So staff response to the November 25th, 2025 committee of the whole meeting.

How is Atlas Power taxed and how will they be taxed with their planned expansion?

Staff response, a the class 17 property classification, which applies to data centers is taxed at 0.9 of the market value.

Market value is assessed each year by the Montana Department of Revenue C, and then there is a web link attached, and these responses will be at or um attached to tonight's minutes as well.

B Atlas Powers located in the South Bute targeted economic development district TED.

The TED allows Butte Silver Bow to collect a portion of their point nine percent taxes.

This is not a separate tax.

The taxes are then used for improvements in the district at the discretion of the district, which means it needs to be approved from the district's board of directors and the council of commissioners.

The usage must be in accordance with the programs of the district.

For example, taxes collected from Atlas Power and other users in the district were recently used to rebuild the North Park Mount Avenue, rebuilding the street, curb, gutters, sidewalks, etc.

C.

Atlas Powers equipment will never depreciate to zero because their assets, their servers are constantly being replaced as they are being used.

If they depreciated to zero, this would mean that they are likely out of business.

Question number two, Miss Bordoon.

Can you explain how taxation of the SABI data center would work inside and and outside the Montana Connections targeted economic development district?

The answer, um Montana Connections targeted economic development district is a district that allows a portion of the 0.9% tax rate to be collected by the district.

This is not a separate tax.

The taxes are then used for improvements in the district at the discretion of the district, which means it can which means it needs to be approved from the district's board of directors and the council of commissioners.

The usage must also be in accordance with the programs of the district.

For example, taxes collected from businesses in the MC TED can be used to improve infrastructure on any property within the district.

The district can agree to a remittance agreement to return a portion of the increment collected to all taxing jurisdictions.

If SABI data centers were to re relocate outside of the MTED, these taxes could not be collected by the district.

Number three, Miss Bordoon, can the MC TED board put a water contract in place with SABI?

Answer yes.

All users of the Silver Lake Water System must enter into an agreement with Butte Silver Bow for usage of the water.

Number four, Miss Bordoon, where does Atlas Power get its water from?

Atlas Powers Building Design uses an air-cooled system.

Water usage from Atlas Power is for facility use drinking water bathrooms only.

Number five, Commissioner O'Leary.

Um, what kind of tax revenues can expect for Sabrie Sabi in the MC TED?

Umperty tax collections will be based on the Montana or the market value established by the Montana Department of Revenue and will reflect the development in place each year on January 1st.

The assessed values are certified each year in August, assuming an assessed value of 10 million dollars in year one.

As of January 1st, the property tax is a simple calculation below.

I'll try to go through this as much as I can.

Real property, buildings, and land.

We have a market value of $50 million, a tax rate of 0.9, a taxable value of $450,000.

Mills assessed for the MC TED is $562.42.

The property tax assessed is $253,008.

Personal property perenni equipment, market value of $50 million, tax rate of 0.9, class 17 property $450,000.

Mills assessed $562.42.

Property tax assessed $253,089.

The total would be $506,178.

Commissioner O'Leary, what will the tariff on the data centers will be from the PSC?

Answered by representatives of Northwestern Energy.

Answer Northwestern Energy is in the process of developing two documents, one which relates to large load customers, i.e.

those with a load of greater than five megawatts, and one which is a contractual agreement that outlines responsibilities, financial requirements.

It is our intention to present both documents to the Montana Public Service Commission for approval.

Once approved, the tariff will apply to all new uh large load customers, and the initial contract will serve as a template for the other large loads requests.

Oh, just to re-clarify, that was answered by representatives of Northwestern Energy.

Number seven, uh, Miss Bordeaux, Northwestern Energy imports 25% of energy from other states.

Even with coal strip addition, the supply of power is less than what data centers have been promised.

How can rate payers be assured that rates will not increase?

Again, answered by representatives of Northwestern Energy.

Again, another calculation.

Real property, buildings and land.

Is that part of it?

Excuse me, Commissioner Morgan, members of council.

I didn't mean to interrupt you, but it seems that your pages are out of order, stapled out of order.

Um that what you're going into now is the first example on the taxes.

I gave two examples on taxes.

One's with the 10 million or 10 million dollar first year value and a 50 million dollar on the second year, knowing that a construction project of this size would take many years to actually come on board.

So I was trying to reflect how that would grow over time.

So I think you were just out of order, but the answer to that question is in green there, so you can go ahead and move ahead.

On mine, they're all in black.

Oh, I apologize.

I made them in different colors so you could tell.

Um, yes, uh, the last page that looks like this with the bold at the top is the answer to that question.

Okay.

I apologize.

Excuse me.

That's okay.

Uh so regarding the importation of 25% of energy, there are a lot of variables depending on resource availability.

In general, we are usually long from an energy perspective and continue to export, but there are days when the generation sources, wind, solar, thermal, etc.

are unavailable or reduced, and we do not import.

As we have added the Yellowstone plant, the Dave Gates facility and other resources, we are more likely to be in an exporting mode.

I know that this is a loose explanation, but that is reality.

Sometimes we import, usually we export.

The graph referenced electric generation on the Northwestern Energy's website one depicts one month of activity at a time.

The acquisition of the Avista portion of Coal Strip provides energy that is necessary to serve our existing customers.

As mentioned many times, that block of energy is being obtained free of charge on one one of 2026.

Northwestern Energy understands how important it is to protect our Montana customers from unnecessary costs.

Generation from the Puget Sound Energy share of Coal Strip Plant is not needed right now to meet our Montana customers' energy demand.

That's why we ensure that the cost to operate and maintain the share will not be included in the customer rates until it is needed to serve our customers.

Our Montana utility is owned and operated by Northwestern Corporation doing business as Northwestern Energy.

In 2023, the Montana Public Service Commission approved a corporate restructuring that created strong protection for our Montana customers under the Commission's rising ring fencing requirements.

See MPSC docket 2022.06.064, the final order of 7854B.

The Puget Sound Energy Share of the Coal Strip Plant is being acquired by a subsidiary of our parent company, Northwestern Energy Group Incorporated, and will remain outside the utilities ring fencing.

This means our Montana customers will not pay any costs associated to the share until it is needed to serve them.

In short, there is no way for subsidy subsidization to occur under this structure.

This resource will be will excuse me, this resource will enable the company to serve a large or serve new large loads initially as other requests are received, whether from new large load customers or from existing large load customers requesting additional energy, we will apply the provisions in the large load tariff and associated contracts.

This may mean that future large load customers may have to either provide their own generation or purchase energy from the market.

That concludes the responses that I have written.

I apologize for the misorder, but again, these will be posted onto the minutes so everybody will have access to all of them as well.

The other thing that I would mention is there is also a uh a Montana TED board meeting this Friday as well, and that agenda will be published on the website if there's anybody that wants to attend it.

Um I believe it's at noon, but that is another public opportunity for people to attend those meetings if they so choose to.

I don't know if there's anything on this particular topic on that agenda, but I wanted the public to know that there is a meeting this Friday.

Um Ms.

Bordoon, the communication is yours, so I would just give you the floor if you have anything to add.

Um chair and county commissioners, Chief Executive Gallagher and Matt Enruth, County Attorney.

I really appreciate getting those answers back.

I think it provides a great foundation for people to know where they're operating from when we're talking about locating businesses in the tax increment districts.

Um I brought up, I'm gonna address the energy part first, because I know that's what the county has the least amount of control about.

But until those contracts are understood in ratepayers, possible liability in the future with those large load contracts are understood.

I really um hope that we would be very cautious about um starting huge data centers.

Um we haven't yet known if our ratepayers are protected until there's some either legal outcomes that uh provide ratepayers protection.

Um or there's a very transparent process through the PSC regulation that protects residential ratepayers and other business owners, quite honestly.

Um that's my first point on that.

And that was one reason why I wanted to bring up that gap in generation by Northwestern Energy as is posted on their website, and the demand that you know, currently in the month of December, um there's a large generation gap between what Northwestern Energy is generating and what our demands are.

And so I the gap is where they go to market and to buy energy, and those market prices aren't things that we can control.

Northwestern energy doesn't control those prices either.

So when if we get lumped into the other large load demands, there would be greater market prices, supposedly.

The other thing I will point out that there was an article, and I plan to do a very nice letter to everyone, including some of the resources that I've been reading.

One was a meeting, a presentation that Mike Cashel gave, and there was a slide in that presentation that I think was great, and all council members should see that slide.

Not because it's I I got you, but it's just more information from Northwestern Energy, straight from Northwestern Energy about what they are presenting about the Atlas and the yet unnamed data center coming to butte.

And one of the things that it says right at the bottom of that slide is that Northwestern Energy's purchase of the coal strip shares from Avista and maybe Puget Sound as well, I'm not sure from that last presentation.

But those coal strip shares, um, those are going to data centers with the plan of just supplying the energy for data centers from that source.

Um we also have seen that Northwestern Energy is wanting to go around the public service commission and use federal guidance rather than our state guidance.

Um so I would just point that out that we've got a few moving parts in this deal.

And but we're still the people living in this town and county.

So we just want to make sure that the contracts that we made, uh, the promises that we make are for the good of the people here.

Um I have heard that data centers are good for um businesses, you know, and I would like to know more about how they are good for businesses.

Um I've been trying to understand that.

Um comment I received was that local businesses may be interested in having a data center close to be able to rack their cloud and do business.

Um I would encourage business people who are interested in this to come forward and say how it would help them or not.

From what I could read online, um, which is you know, questionable sources, um, but some people who say they use cloud um business uh contracts, rental contracts from data centers, but they do not need to be located close to the data center at all.

Um maybe that's only specific businesses.

Maybe we have businesses that need to be close to a data center, actually physically close, but a lot of businesses that use data centers don't even need to be in the same state.

So I just question that logic.

Um, and I would be I would welcome further understanding of what businesses are attracted to be located near data centers.

Um that's energy, and then on the taxes, um, I think our tax increment districts, which I will continue to misname.

I'm sorry, I know it's the Montana Connections TED district.

I I think they are amazing for our community.

I have learned more about them recently.

They brought us out of great dire situations in the 90s.

Uh we can be very thankful that we have have this these districts because they are an incredible attractant to businesses.

Um I don't know if data centers really need the tax breaks.

That's another point.

I don't know.

I I I don't know because I'm not in that business, but I would suspect there are other industries that are interested in our community that bring different jobs, more jobs, and the data centers might want to locate here anyway because you know, but why do they need tax breaks?

I guess is my question, if they are a viable business and they have government backing and by God Google backing.

Um they have government backing and by God, Google backing.

I just don't understand why would we be giving them tax breaks just as a philosophical question.

Um and then on Atlas and Water.

Um so Alice's original build was for cryptocurrency generation, you know, for cryptocurrency, which is a lower security type build.

I'm curious to know if the build out for Atlas would be the more secure type building that SABI data centers is proposing, because on that slide, Mike Cashel's slide, it did indicate that Atlas might be more interested in getting into machine uh generated learning and um AI learning rather than crypto as much.

And so that might cause different construction.

Again, don't know because I'm not a data center guru, but um it's just a good question to ask as they move their plans forward.

Thank you.

That's all I have if you have any questions of me.

Thank you, Ms.

Bordoon.

Is Karen Burns still Karen?

I I just if if I can, if I can just ask you a question.

Well when we use the term tax breaks, um, can you explain is there tax breaks going to SABI at this point, or is that I guess is that the correct term that you would use for a TIFF district?

Um thank you, Commissioner Morgan, uh members of council.

Um no, I would not say tax break.

Um so a tax break usually refers to an abatement or something that's allowed through the Montana Code.

Um so the Montana Code sets the tax rates.

Um the tax rates for data centers was sent set by the Montana legislature at 0.9% and implemented in code and is enforced through the Department of Revenue.

So that's not something that we have any control over necessarily is what rate they're taxed at and the classification of their property.

So if you look into the Montana Code, and I think there's we'd have an active link in our responses, it brings you to the class 17 property.

Um and so that is where that that rate is established.

Um location within a tax increment um financing um area, uh a district, an economic development district that was created that implemented tax increment financing is not a tax break either.

It allows us, as you've seen our presentations many times over the years now, to um once we establish that district, implement tax increment financing, we get to collect a portion of the taxes that would be paid anyway.

So the tax rate applied to a data center in the district or outside the district is exactly the same.

The only difference is is that if they're in the district, we get to collect a portion of that, and then we get to use it for the purposes and plans that we had for that district, or as we said in our answers, if if if it is the the will of the body and the um connections board, and we don't have projects to do a remittance agreement to send that tax revenue back to all the taxing jurisdictions, um that is something that we could do.

Um just throwing it out there.

Hope I answered the question.

Yeah.

Thank you very much.

Commissioner O'Leary on the question.

Thank you, Chairman Morgan.

I I guess I had a couple questions.

I think these are for uh director Burns.

Uh the at this point, SAIB has not asked for any abatements, correct?

And they have not indicated that they intend to.

Ms.

Burns.

Uh thank you, uh Chairman Morgan, uh, members of council, Commissioner Larry.

No, there'sn't been no abatements asked for.

Okay.

And then I I don't know if um this is a question for you or for Ms.

Hassler when she's here at a different point.

But could you sort of describe how a remittance remittance agreement would look like are we talking basically you're you're just take the MC TED out of the picture and it all the money goes back to who they would have gone to if it was outside the TED or how exactly would that work?

Ms.

Burns.

Thank you, Commissioner Morgan, members of council, Commissioner Larry.

Um remittance agreements can work in a number of ways.

Um they can be a one-time agreement that comes before the TED board and this body that says we want to remit a certain amount like a million dollars, let's just say.

Um the the TED board agrees, this body votes on it, and we remit back a million dollars from our revenues that we've collected to all the taxing jurisdictions based on that mill card on how our our our mills are assessed and everything goes back to where it would have gone had we not existed.

Um that's one way it can function.

Another way it can function is it could be a long-standing agreement that goes into place over at the beginning of a project that says we're going to remit this much every year as a certain percentage of the increment collected or a certain amount of the increment collected.

So it can be written in different ways, but the one single thing that's true of every remittance agreement is that all of the revenue has to go back to those taxing jurisdictions as it would have had we not existed.

So there's no way to say, well, we want this much to go to this jurisdiction and this much to go to schools and the you know, you don't get to do that.

It goes directly how it would have gone had you not existed with that provision.

Follow up Commissioner O'Leary.

So if I'm understanding this correctly, then the the portion that would have normally gone to the st or that we the the state's portion that normally would have been retained in the district would go back to the state, so we would lose access to that uh for the investment in inside the TED.

Yes, thank you, Chairman Morgan, members of Council Commissioner Larry, that is correct.

Okay.

Follow-up, Commissioner O'Leary.

In your in your response uh responses here, you had a couple of uh the charts with um estimations, you know, fifty million dollars and and uh ten million dollars in year one and two.

I is that actually reflective of what we would kind of expect in year one and two, or is that just kind of a a ballpark uh estimation?

I mean obviously you don't know exact exactly what they're planning to do, but uh just wanted to clarify that.

Ms.

Burns.

Uh thank you, Chairman Morgan, members of council, Commissioner Larry.

Um that is correct.

It was a just a estimate that I just picked.

I had no indication that this would be reflective of what we could expect in year one or year two.

Um I was just trying to be um demonstrative of how it could work.

Thank you.

Okay, any other follow-up questions.

Uh Commissioner Callahan.

Thank you, Chairman Morgan.

Mr.

Ms.

Burdoon, uh, I just got a suggestion for you.

I don't know if you had an opportunity to see the uh the uh legislature had a subcommittee for the energy and uh technical and it was about all this.

I don't know if you had an opportunity to watch that.

It was I think back in mid-November.

And they I would suggest that you take some time and watch it, it's on PBS station.

Uh they brought up some really interesting things that I wasn't aware of.

You you know, you had mentioned Vista and uh Puget Sound.

Apparently Northwestern Energy is gonna take those powers over next month or something, and they're gonna dedicate them just to large corporations.

But one of the things they had mentioned that there was a gentleman there that from Utah that did an energy study, the Northwestern hired them for an energy study, and his study showed that Montana is a energy island.

And he one of the things he used as an example of back five years ago, six years ago, whatever it was when we went into that polar freeze, and we they maxed out on power.

I mean, they were at the point that they were almost gonna have to shut down corporations because they couldn't produce enough power for the demand.

And we were buying power from out of state, but because we're an energy island, we only have limited resources to bring power in and out.

And because we didn't have the resources to buy power from multiple places, one of the things we got stuck with during the polar plunge was we paid 10 times the price that other people around us because they had the sources to get the power from other options.

They said, and I don't remember the unit might have been megawatts or whatever.

Other places were paying $100, Montana was paying a thousand dollars per unit.

So I suggest you watch that and it was really, really interesting.

And he said the reason we're an energy island is because we don't have the resources to bring power in or out.

And I know three and four coal strip is Puget Sound and Vista, and all that power is supposed to go to big corporations, but we don't they don't use it here.

Now we need it.

Are we gonna be back in the same situation where we're buying it from limited resources?

And so I would suggest you watch that and see what you get out of it.

But there was some very interesting stuff on that that I saw.

Thank you, Commissioner Callahan.

I'll I'll check it out.

So it was PBS on the energy conditions.

Yes, the the subcommittee was I think it was energy and technol technology, and they talked about these.

In fact, the company that was gonna go out here at Silver Bowl, one of their executive vice presidents spoke.

Okay and then they spoke about the one that's gonna go in Browning.

They mentioned things of water.

Um closed circuit, so once they're full, they don't need no more water.

Or the one out here isn't a closed circuit, so they'll need so many gallons a day.

And I was very interested in the differences between the types of uh these companies are and how they were operated.

And the power thing was very interested.

You know, I thought we had lots of power that we exported.

And apparently that that that wasn't Northwestern Energy's power, that was Vistas and Puget Sounds power.

And when we needed the power, it cost the ratepayers big bucks because he says we're limited on where Montana's limited on where we can bring power in or bring it out.

Yeah.

Export.

And at that time, we needed more power, and we had very few places we could buy power from, so we paid a top dollar for our power.

So I think if you watch that, I think you'd be get some real good information out of it.

Thank you very much.

Yeah, I I think um there the director of the DEQ just made some comments about large load commitments in the state of Montana, specifically by Northwestern Energy, and I wonder if she is reflecting some of the same concerns she was saying that currently our grid is not prepared to make these large load commitments.

And I imagine it alludes to uh some of the dangers of being at capacity all the time and not having it the ability to flux on that, I imagine.

Um I can send uh a link to that article as well.

All right.

Thank you very much.

You're welcome.

Okay.

Thank you, Ms.

Bordoon and the commissioners on those on those questions and comments.

Um what's the pleasure of the council on this communication?

I believe the questions have been asked and answered.

Uh what would be the pleasure of the body?

Commissioner O'Neill.

Oh, Commissioner Thatcher.

Um Thank you, Chairman Morgan.

In I I think as you stated, we have answered the questions that Ms.

Bordoon had originally asked and have answered some follow-up questions.

Um it would be my opinion that at this time we could place this on file, but I'd be anxious to see maybe what other commissioners say, because I'm good either way.

Okay, there's been a motion.

Was that in the form of a motion, Commissioner Thatcher?

Uh yes.

Okay, there's been a motion made and seconded by Commissioner O'Neill to place communication 2025-546 on file.

Is there anything on the question?

Commissioner Shea.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

I would like to make a substitute motion to hold it in abeyance.

Um, and my reasoning is um to keep it on the public um on the agenda, so members of the public can come and comment if they so choose.

So I'm also pleasure of the council, but that would be my reasoning if there's a second.

Okay, there's been a second motion made to hold communication 2025-546 in abeyance.

Um on the question, Commissioner Thatcher.

Uh thank you, Chairman Morgan.

I guess my only question to that would be this is specifically regarding questions from beyond the boom.

This isn't specifically talking about anything related to the data center.

So I guess how does that work?

Good comment, Commissioner Thatcher.

Yes, I mean that's the challenge that you're gonna run into is that you know, as far as a communication goes, this came to us to ask specific questions.

Those specific questions were answered, and so I don't know.

You know, the the opportunity for a member of the public to come up and speak on this would be on items, you know, addressed on the agenda, so there's no banter back and forth, you know, from this body, you know, as things, if things come back to this body would be the time that you could have more public input based on those particular topics, I I would think.

But that would just be my opinion that I don't know how you're what this mechanism would do to keep it held in abeyance.

Commissioner O'Neill.

Thank you, Chairman Morgan.

And as I appreciate the um I've learned a lot from Ms.

Bordoon's um stuff that she's brought and all the questions and everything, but I feel like that maybe there should we should there should be another communication to follow, kind of being repetitive what you said.

Um they said and no disrespect to that, but again, big shout out to Ms.

Bordoon for um bringing a lot of light to this thick head, so thank you.

Commissioner Healy.

I guess the only comment I'm gonna make on that is that Sarah did come back with more questions.

So what if she has more questions on the same line?

Uh Commissioner Healy, she could very simply put in another communication to the council if she felt that it was needed and or there's public input opportunities with public hearings that would be you know brought forward as well.

And so just I mean no different than what it was before.

Uh Chief Executive Gallagher.

Commissioner Morgan, and I I think to the point of what we're talking about here in what um was regular as um Mr.

Everett came forward and he couldn't come to to speak towards this.

He was limited to do it during public comment.

So you know, when saying leaving it open for the public, it really requires Ms.

Bordoon to come and be that person asking all the questions of that through this communication.

So I just it really doesn't open it up to the public to do a lot more.

That's just my perspective on this.

Um I think it was shown just at the beginning of the meeting because Mr.

Everett wasn't it wasn't his communication, so he couldn't really come forward to speak on that.

Yeah.

Uh Commissioner Fisher.

Thank you, Chairman Morgan.

Um I see no I see no reason to kill it right now.

I mean, holding it in abeyance ain't gonna hurt nothing.

You know, we're taking a lot of this information.

Questions around it by Northwestern Energy Public Service Commission talking about the atlas out there, you know, Atlas has their own substation.

There's a lot of moving parts in this to just uh say we answered the questions and kill it.

I think that's kind of not doing a favor to anybody.

I think this has got to stay open.

This is a subject everybody's talking about.

I think keeping it on the agenda is gonna keep it active, and uh I support the uh substitute motion.

Thank you.

The only comment that I would have on that is it's nice being a commissioner to answer questions that are before us, and like at this particular time, there's no proposal that's before us on this particular thing, so they're hard to answer if you don't know really what the details are that are before us, and and if they choose to come back to this body, you would you would have that opportunity to do it.

I mean, if that's the case, a general communication could be attached to every single agenda on anything that's imbute just to keep it open, which there's still opportunity for members of the public to speak on anything that's not on the agenda, even if they want to perk the ears of the commissioners to keep their ear to the ground on and just you know be aware of it.

So I mean to say there's no spot for the public to comment on this is it's in my opinion incorrect because there's there's quite a few spots they still could.

Commissioner Callahan.

You're absolutely correct there, but we can't respond back to them.

All right.

My personal thought is I'd much rather be able to respond back to them than just have them come talk to us and then we can ask questions.

Commissioner Thatcher, then Commissioner O'Neill.

Thank you, Chairman Morgan.

That's a very good point.

Um, Commissioner Cowan, that we can't respond, but again, we can only respond to Ms.

Bordoon right now.

So even if any other member of the public wanted to come up, we can't respond to them either.

Commissioner O'Neill.

Thank you, Chairman Morgan.

I feel like that we're our job when we get the communications is to fulfill what the communication is.

Um what more are we gonna get if we keep it on there?

I mean truthfully, uh we keep keep it on for the rest of the year is fine, but also want to challenge the community too if they want to get more information.

I hope hope they do, and they could also fill out another communication and keep the ball rolling.

That'd be nice.

But um, whatever you guys want to do, it's sounds good to me.

Thank you.

So there is a motion on the floor uh to hold communication 2025-546 in abeyance on the question, Commissioner Shea.

No, I was gonna make a motion to call for the vote.

So there is a motion on the floor.

If motion stands, we would take a vote on this motion to hold communication 2025-546 in abeyance.

Is there anything on the question?

Is everybody understand the motion that's before them?

We're we're we're we're voting on the substitute motion to hold in abeyance.

Communication 2025, 546.

Okay, would everyone please vote?

Okay, would anyone like to change their vote?

Would the clerk please record the vote?

Five yay.

Five nay.

Motion fails.

So we'll go to the next motion, which is to uh place communication 2025-546 on file.

Is there anything on the question?

Would everyone please vote?

Would anyone like to change their vote?

Would the clerk please record the vote?

Five yay, five nay.

Motion fails.

So we either make a substitute motion, or we no idea.

What would be the pleasure of the council on it?

I guess you know, just to continue the debate on it, is is really, you know, the communication that's been before us is no different than any other communication that's been brought up in that there was a question, they were answered, there were some follow-up questions, and they were answered.

And and again, you know, there's still gonna be opportunity for people to comment or submit another communication for these, you know, in some of these questions could have been you know directly addressed by staff or at or a board, and or some could have been directly addressed with Northwestern Energy as well.

So there's there's avenues for people to go through to get these answers without making them part of the council agenda.

The the other option too is that we are all elected to represent the people of our districts, and you know, if they want to talk to their commissioner, that is also another pathway for people to reach out to as well.

So um I guess I would just say that.

Commissioner Fisher.

Thank you, Chairman Morgan.

You know, I think we're putting a lot of faith in Northwest Energy.

They answered some of the questions, you know.

They're they're planning on making profit on this.

We're worried about our ratepayers, you know.

Whether we keep this or uh kill it, either way, there could be another communication.

That's why I'm saying what's the big hurry to just kick it off of the agenda and not do anything.

I mean, we're here right now for a long time, and tie vote, you know.

This is just something I think we're putting a lot of faith in the people who answer the questions.

I wasn't I didn't answer any questions.

I don't know if any of these other commissioners answered any questions.

We're putting a lot of faith in somebody that answered the questions that um I ain't sure I agree with all the answers.

That's why I'm voting holding.

And I guess the only comment that I would make on that is we have no power over Northwestern Energy and how they respond to it.

I mean, a simple way that we could have responded to these was that's outside the scope, and that's a Northwestern Energy response, and then just not provided any response on our on our response.

So I I mean I don't know if having this on there holds Northwestern's feet to the fire any more than it would anyway, Commissioner Callahan.

Thank you, Chairman Morgan.

I guess my suggestion would be what would your recommendation be for say we put this to bed tonight and have Ms.

Perdeau come up with a new communication where the public is allowed to speak as well.

Does that work?

I guess Commissioner Callahan, just on the logistics of that, I don't know what you would do.

Do you want John Q public to just enter a communication that would address any item that they'd want to?

I mean procedurally, there's things on the agenda that allow people the opportunity to come and speak on any item on the agenda or anything that's off the agenda, submit a communication through their commissioners, submit a communication on their own behalf.

So I mean there's opportunities for people to get help on.

I I don't know.

Commissioner Callahan.

Well, I guess my question is then like Chief Executive Gallagher said.

Mr.

Barrett was asked to come up here and talk tonight, and if he was allowed to talk like Ms.

Burdone, we could ask him questions or answer some of his questions as well, but because he spoke at the beginning of the meeting, we cannot have conversation with them.

So that's why I asked if there's a suggestion we can figure something out that I I guess just in response to that, Mr.

Barrett, I know knows procedures, and if he wants to submit a communication as well, I mean just like Miss Bordoon did, he could very simply do that.

I mean, by me not letting him speak at the beginning was the procedures and the and the procedures that we've always followed as a body to not let people speak unless it's their communication.

And so I wasn't that wasn't a new rule tonight that I enforced that is just going off of normal procedures.

And so I mean, if that was the case, every communication on this agenda becomes a public hearing.

And that's not our intent, right?

So I mean that's that's just clarifying my stance on letting Mr.

Barrett speak um, you know, at the beginning of the meeting.

Uh Chief Executive Gallagher.

Chairman Morgan, Commissioners, I I think of it as um the will of this body, we could submit a communication that gives updates on the data center, which would bring this into so we could as a as um But Silver Bow staff bring a communication to bring updates to this, and we could submit a communication to do that, which would allow this to continue.

And then doesn't put on, you know, I'm not uh to say Ms.

Bordoon to put it on her shoulders every time to be coming up with the questions to be submitting to keep this open.

I think it would be an opportunity that we could open it up and he could come public comment and then there could be discussion in here, and we'd be given updates along the way as it's gone there.

If it would be the will of this body, we could do that if any other uh Commissioner Healy.

I just noticed Mr.

Everett had his hand up, and I didn't know if he would be able to talk.

That's all.

Uh Commissioner Healy, are you are you calling on Mr.

Barrett to to speak?

I don't know how it correlates to this communication, but he had his hand up, to be fair.

Commissioner Healy, are you calling Mr.

Barrett to the podium?

I'm calling Mr.

Barrett to the podium.

Mr.

Barrett Thank you, Commissioner Healy, and thank you, Mr.

Chair, members of the Commission.

Uh I appreciate your comment, and you you did make the right call at the beginning, and I apologize for the awkwardness I uh created.

And uh you did uh uh just say that I understood procedure, so I would like to speak to your procedure right now, if you don't mind.

I'm not a parliamentarian, but I've been in enough of these meetings.

Uh you have the communication on the agenda with the recommendation uh that has been passed by this body and not been and not been overturned by any subsequent action.

You put it up here twice.

It failed in both cases.

It would seem to me that the previous uh past position, which is to hold it in abeyance, holds until it's overturned.

Uh so I would at least present that as a possibility as an amateur parliamentarian.

Thank you, Mr.

Barrett.

What is the pleasure of the council?

That is who determines what the next stop step of this is.

Commissioner O'Leary.

Thank you, Chairman Morgan.

I was gonna ask the the uh county attorney for his opinion about this, but maybe you know the answer to this.

We have now voted on both holding advance and uh uh note in place on file at this point.

Can we take action on on this outside of those two motions?

I guess I'm asking more of a question uh of you or the county attorney if he returns.

Commissioner Larry, I mean you took action on it, but both motions failed, so no action was taken, correct?

I mean, that's how I would interpret that rule.

So you're not there's nothing been determined.

I mean, to me, a sub another motion, all the motions on the floor parliamentary-wise have been denied.

So now it goes for another motion to vote.

If somebody would want to make another motion to particularly hold an abeyance, you could see if somebody flops and see where it goes.

Uh Commissioner Shea.

I believe somebody could technically make a motion to reconsider.

They'd have to be on the prevailing side, and there was no prevailing side.

It's a hung jury.

We'll just talk about it next week.

I would say, you know, moving forward, just so we're not sitting here looking at each other for the rest of the night.

Um I would I would say hold it in abeyance.

It it doesn't have any precedence, you know, going forward.

It it would be on the committee of the whole report next week is hold in abeyance.

Any commissioner that has had a change in heart or wants to do something else with it next week could very simply segregate it out of the regular meeting and take action on that.

So we'll continue.

I mean, just as it's been on the agenda the last several weeks, continue to hold this communication in abeyance and leave it on the agenda.

Any unless you guys want to look at each other a little bit longer.

Commissioner O'Neill.

Let me uh county attorney and ruth.

The question was asked if we can take action on the same motion, being that the motion was to place on file.

Um to hold in abeyance, and and I said really no action was done on it, but can a second motion of the same sort be made?

County attorney Ann Ruth.

Uh Chairman Morgan, Commissioner's correct.

You can make the motion again because there wasn't a losing side that you know needs to, or excuse me, a winning side that needs to remake the motion because there's a tie, no action was taken.

You can remake the motion.

Would someone like to make a motion?

Commissioner O'Neill.

I'd like to make a motion that we um keep communication 2025-46 on the agenda till um sometime in January pick a date.

So I changed my motion a little bit to miss mess with it.

So we just keep it on there.

I want to put I want to date it to January.

Just to be difficult to January 7th.

How's that sound?

Let's go.

No, sir.

Well, it's not.

Motion dies a lack of second.

Would anyone like to make a motion?

Commissioner Shea.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

This is a great learning experience for all of us.

Um County Attorney Ann Ruth.

Question about a motion to table the item.

Is that is that a an effective solution here?

That would in essentially just suspend it where it's at.

Uh County Attorney Ann Ruth.

Commissioner Morgan, uh excuse me, Chairman Morgan, Commissioner Shea.

Are you asking if you if the commission moves to table the motion that it suspends it where it is?

Commissioner Shea?

Kind of.

I I I'm asking, I think, because that would be a different motion if we didn't want to make the same motion.

If we made a motion to table it, that means we stop consideration of it, correct?

Chairman Morgan, Commissioner Shea, correct.

But from the sounds of what everybody is talking about here, I suggest making the original motion to continue holding it in the committee of the whole uh until someone wants to either pull it off at the next regular meeting or make a different motion on an at that time, because then that would allow for continued public comment on Ms.

Burdane's uh communication uh and then also uh support the commissioners that were ready to place it on file today uh to allow them to make that motion again at that time.

But for tonight's purposes, I suggest making the motion to uh continue holding it in the committee of the whole commissioner Healy.

I'll make the motion to hold um communication number 2025-546 in the committee of the whole.

Okay, there's been a motion made and seconded to hold communication 2025-546 in the committee of the whole.

Is there anything on the question?

Would everyone please vote?

Would anyone like to change their vote?

Would the clerk please record the vote?

Five yay, five nay.

Motion fails.

Commissioner Thatcher.

Thank you, Chairman Shay.

You know, I guess I'm a I'm struggling a little bit with this because we get chastised if we don't follow procedure, and sometimes commissioners chastise this own body if we don't follow procedure.

The specific communication is talking about the questions that Ms.

Bordoon have presented from the beyond the boom.

I I would hope that Ms.

Bordoon feels it that staff, Northwestern Energy, and everybody has answered those to the best of our abilities sufficiently enough that maybe if she has more questions, she could come back and like we've all discussed, impose another communication.

Same with Mr.

Barrett.

I I struggle because we're going back and forth, and in for some reason we don't want to follow the procedure that is the procedure.

That is how it works.

We are not allowed to talk about things that aren't specifically on the agenda.

Like uh that's just how it works.

And so I'm I'm really struggling with that part.

Additionally, I understand that this is a very contentious topic in our community as it should be, and I think that we need to continue very much so having the conversation around this.

And I I am very grateful to Miss Bordoon and the information that she has brought light to.

So now, then I would like to make a motion to again place on file communication number 2025-546.

Second.

Okay, there's been a motion made and seconded to place communication 2025-546 on file.

Is there anything on the question?

On the question, the only thing that I would present to this body to get past this part would be maybe a suggestion to hold this or add this communication to the suspense file until the first week of January or the first committee of the whole.

That could allow a few few things.

It gets it off the agenda for a few few weeks to let people start to digest what it's been digesting, and then it will come back and appear on the first committee of the whole meeting in January.

That might be a cat or a an olive branch to get us out of here before midnight tonight.

That's the only thing I would say.

On the question, Commissioner Fisher.

Thank you, Chairman Morgan.

At this time, I'd make a motion to put communication 2025 in the suspense file until Wednesday, January 14, 2026.

There's been a motion made and seconded.

That was a substitute motion, Commissioner Fisher.

There's a substitute motion to place communication 2025-546 in the suspense file until the January 14th committee of the whole meeting that's been moved and seconded.

Is there anything on the question?

Would everyone please vote?

Would anyone like to change their vote?

Would the clerk please record the vote?

Seven yay, three nay.

Thank you.

Motion passes.

Moving on to communication 2025-576.

James Olet, Safety and Health Coordinator, ADA coordinator, requesting council of commissioners' authorization to schedule a public hearing for December 10th, 2025 for the purpose of considering adopting the City, County, or But Silver Bow ADA self-evaluation and transition plan.

We did have this public hearing tonight.

Um Commissioner Thatcher.

Thank you, Chairman Morgan.

At this time, I'd like to make a motion to place on file communication number 2025-576.

Thank you.

There's been a motion made and seconded to place communication 2025-576 on file.

Is there anything on the question?

Would everyone please vote?

Would anyone like to change their vote?

Or the clerk please record the vote.

10 yay, 0 nay.

Thank you.

Motion passes.

Number 5, communication 2025-581.

Will O'Connor Land Records Coordinator requesting Council of Commissioners to approve council communication 2025-249, a request from Patty and Chris Salmanson to purchase land owned by Beauty Silver Bow located adjacent to their property located at 17 Tullamore Street.

We'll continue to hold this uh communication in abeyance pending the report back from the land sales committee.

Next item on the tonight's agenda is any public comment on any public matter not on the agenda.

Welcome to the council meeting.

Please state your name and address for the record.

There you go.

Mr.

Chair, uh members of the council, Evan Barrett, 807 West Silver.

My apologize.

This is not on the agenda, and I'll be very brief about it.

For I think it's very important to starting to think about the constituents out there who one of whose primary uh concern these days is about their power rates, their affordability generally, and their power rates as as it applies to uh affordability.

And the question of what's going to happen with all these major things in power is is a serious, serious question.

And I urge you all to pay close attention to what's going on between Northwestern Energy and the Public Service Commission, the Federal Energy Commission as well, FERC that's going on.

It uh Northwestern Energy appears to be coming more and more opaque.

They're not transparent about what's going on.

They give answers, but they put for example, they succeeded in getting the public service commission to allow them to not have information released to the public that their rates are going to be dependent upon.

Okay.

Well, it's trade secrets.

Well, we all have trade secrets, but it's really questionable.

Maybe that's going to end up in court over that, but they're they're opaque in that sense.

They're an out-of-state corporation that's trying to make money in Montana.

That's legit, but they don't want us to know how it's going to work.

So they're they PSC went along with them there.

Also, they just took 370 megawatts from uh the coal strip sale, and they placed it with a subsidiary of theirs that is not to be regulated by the Public Service Commission.

Okay.

And that's in front of FERC.

So they're saying, no, you can't regulate us on this.

And so we got the PSC now is fighting and telling FERC to ignore that because they think they ought to be involved.

There's a lot of bad stuff going on, it seems to me, on rate uh making in Montana that can negatively impact every citizen of Butte and every citizen of Montana, at least those that are customers, electric customers of Northwestern Energy.

So this will be making more stories and more headlines.

Don't always believe what you see, but let's all pay some close attention to that.

I I am a member of a group called Butte Watchdogs for Social and Environmental Justice.

We are a participant in a lawsuit asking the Public Service Commission to create a tariff on this whole idea of the energy that is as it's going to relate to uh to uh data centers.

Uh I would urge the county attorney, chief executive, and all of you to give consideration to joining as a party to that lawsuit on behalf of the citizens of Butte to make sure that a tariff is set up specifically to protect the citizens from this vagueness and opaqueness that's going on and make sure it doesn't ever get transferred.

Any mistakes made on rates, any mistakes ever made by one of these companies don't end up affecting the rates of the citizens.

So I would urge you to consider give consideration that and maybe we'll provide a communication to the council to that effect as well.

But uh keep your eye on the ball on this stuff.

It's real it's it doesn't smell right to me.

Thank you.

Any other member of the public like to speak on any item not on tonight's agenda?

Okay.

Seeing none, I'd ask for a motion to adjourn.