We're gonna start with roll call.

Patrick Brennan.

Sorry.

Patrick is here.

I'm sorry.

I see you.

See you.

Hello.

Kelsey Brinkley.

Hi here.

Jim Farron.

Present.

And Kimberly or do you like to go by Kim or Kimberly?

Kim is fine.

Great.

Are you here?

I'm here.

John Biggs.

And Rachel Oman.

I do not see.

So as far as the agenda, I'd like to make a motion or for one of you guys to make a motion to move the aura.

Off the consent agenda and for a discussion.

I'll make that I make the motion to before we approve the agenda to remove the aura blue hill development off the consent agenda to the regular agenda.

And I second that motion.

Great.

All right.

Can we uh vote on that?

Um all those that agree to um move Aura to the uh regular agenda.

Um just do your so for those that are new.

If you can raise your hand or put a hand up for these fast ones, that's how we're gonna do that so that we can move through quicker.

And then when it's uh further kind of discussion when we're making comments or have questions when we're in the agenda, then I'll go one by one.

Okay.

Um all those opposed.

I don't see any opposition.

So um if we can move on.

Let's go to uh the approval of the agenda.

Kind of a motion for approval.

I motion to approve the agenda for today's meeting.

I second the motion.

Okay, all the those that approve.

Throw a hand up.

And then any opposed.

No.

Okay.

Moving on.

Um we can go to uh announcements.

So over to you, Anna Scott.

Staff does not have any formal announcements.

Uh, we just want to welcome the new members.

Uh, we have three new members tonight who are present.

Um if you want to do anything.

Yeah, I'd like specific to introduce current or new members.

Um, up to you.

Um, I would love for the new members to just do a quick introduction of yourself, and then for those of us that are on the commission, um we'll do an just keep it really brief.

What I'd like to do is that um coming in January, I'll send out an email to everyone so that we can do an informal get together, and then that way we can meet each other face to face.

Okay, so John, I'm gonna start with you.

Hi, I'm John Biggs.

I'm an architect.

Um I saw the um I was interested to get involved in one of the boards, and this one was interesting to me because it's uh uh we we just moved back to Chapel Hill.

We lived here about five years ago and um sold our house and moved back here, just it's a good place.

It's a better place for my kids, put it that way.

And so um, I I just wanted to get involved in the community, and I thought this was a good way to do it because this gives me you know a good understanding of um the comprehensive plan and how things work with uh with aesthetics in Chapel Hill and just to get to know people and kind of get back to the community.

So that's a little bit about me.

Well, welcome, John.

Kim, would you like to go next?

Hey guys, um, so I'm Kim Andrews.

I'm actually a native of Chapel Hill.

I grew up here and graduated Chapel Hill High in um 87, so then giving you my age, but um just glad to be on the committee and hope I can give some insight.

I work for UNC Healthcare Um Foundation, um, so I have a little bit of unique perspective with working through the um things that are going on at UNC as well.

So hopefully I can bring some of that perspective to the to the committee.

So I'm just glad to be here.

Great.

Jim, can you do a quick intro of yourself to our new members?

Yeah, I'm relatively new to the committee.

I joined a couple months ago.

I had previously been on the board of adjustment.

And uh as John said, it's it's interesting and you get a different perspective and uh meet new people.

So I'm quite pleased.

Uh I'm in a retired state previously in my life.

I was a uh doctor of optometry in Illinois and also uh property and apartment owner.

So I have a real estate perspective also.

Great.

Kelsey.

Hi, uh Kelsey Brinkley.

I'm a customer experience designer.

Um went to Chapel Hill, lived in Raleigh, um, lived in a historic district in Raleigh, so personally experienced um some of that, and then um recently moved back to Chapel Hill, I guess almost a year and a half ago.

Um also studied uh city planning um as a minor at Chapel Hill when I was here.

So I'm excited to get back to the community and um yeah, get to have eyes on things and uh make a difference.

Wonderful.

And I see uh Annie woman.

Is that what you want to go by?

Or do you go by Rachel?

Uh Annie is my nickname.

Rachel is just on documents and such.

Okay, so you would like us to call you Annie referred to.

Okay.

Um we're just doing a quick little intro of each person.

Can you tell us just a little bit about yourself to introduce you to yourself to the other commission members?

Yes, and I apologize for being late.

Um hi everybody, my name is Annie Umman.

I am a transportation planner for a small consulting firm in Durham.

Uh I'm from the Raleigh area.

I went to Carolina for undergrad and I also got my Master of City and Regional Planning from UNC.

Um I've lived in this area for cumulatively seven years of my life.

Well, not tell you what proportion of that life that is, but um I have a lot of love for this area now that I'm no longer a student, so living here, I'm really looking forward to getting involved and thinking of Chapel Hill as a as a place that I I live, not just as my college town.

So really excited to give back and get to know all of you.

Welcome.

Um Patrick, I'm gonna go over to you.

Yeah, thank you, Heather.

I'm Patrick from the vice chair of the commission.

Um an old timer now with Heather.

Um I live, we live on the edge of the campus, uh sort of in the Westwood neighborhood uh in the historic district.

My background's in policy.

I worked on Capitol Hill for a member of Congress and a U.S.

senator is to think about this from the policy perspective.

Um so yeah, that's a bit about me.

Great.

And I'm Heather Washburn.

I'm the uh chair, and I'm also an architect and artist here in Chapel Hill.

I live in the ETJ, so right on the fringes of Chapel Hill.

Um, and my background is uh I um was a uh major in architecture and industrial design and own my own firm and I'm doing a development over in Carborough.

Um so I am very much integrated and uh keep wanting to learn more about each municipality and then how we can educate our community so that they understand what we do.

Um and I welcome you all.

Um why don't we keep on moving?

Um did everybody get is there any petitions?

No, we don't have any.

Okay.

Um and then uh did everybody get a chance to review the minutes.

Did anybody have any questions on the minutes?

No.

Can I have a motion to approve the minutes?

Or can we just can we just shortcut right to a vote of approval of the minutes?

I make a motion to vote on the approval of the minutes.

Wonderful.

I second that.

Okay, let's vote on approval.

Um if you approve, please raise your hand.

Uh approve.

Oh, yep.

All approved.

Um, and motion carries.

Okay.

So um Annie, what you missed is that uh we've moved the Aura Chapel Hill off of the consent agenda and into our um regular agenda.

And um I would like to hear a little bit more on this project because it uh did everybody have a chance to kind of review that project a little bit.

I I did, but um I didn't really see what you were talking about earlier about the over the second, you know, the extra half story.

I didn't really see that.

I thought where they were what it was about actually was a one-story building set in that area.

Set in the or I thought it was for a one-story building.

Well, so there were two changes, and um the picture from old to new did not match to the um slight change that they were referring to.

So I'd like to give them a chance to um just talk to us about what it is that they're changing, and then that'll give us a chance to ask questions and then comment on that, and then we can decide if we approve.

So uh Anna Scott, or who would like to talk to us about this project?

Ann, I see you've turned your camera on and you're off mute, so I'm gonna go ahead and assume you might have a presentation or you might say something, or is there someone else from the applicant?

No, I'm sorry, I I um I don't uh presume the protocol for the CDC meeting.

So I I figured there would be a staff uh statement about this, but I was just gonna be ready.

We do it is uh I don't have anything on staff's end.

Uh this was on the consent, so we don't have a presentation or anything prepared.

So I'm glad that you have something to share, please go ahead.

Or you can put the elevations up.

It's really up to you.

I'm glad that we're um having this conversation because I um what is in the packet, the agenda packet for tonight, which I've just opened because this came off consent, is different than what I thought we we were proposing.

And so um I I think maybe I wonder if that is where the confusion lies.

Um and I have with me tonight uh two great representatives of the client.

Okay.

So Elliot Howell is here and also Paul M.

Now Paul, I and for the record that's Paul I M.

And Paul is also under my name because we're we had one of us had to change.

So um Elliot and Paul, if you want to correct me on anything that I'm saying, because I think we're all in a little bit of confusion here.

Um, but what I see attached to the agenda are a number of changes in, and I don't know if Adam Nicholson is on the call tonight, but um a number of changes to floor number of floors and things for a couple of the buildings and the removal of a pedestrian bridge.

What I thought we were doing is just getting uh an approval for an exterior design change for one of the small buildings in the center.

Right.

So when I downloaded them off the town website, I think it's what you're referring to.

Okay, good.

That's the exterior.

I'm wondering if it was attached is okay.

Is that where you're getting it, Heather?

Well, so this is where I'm like, I feel like something got misaligned because what I saw when I downloaded was it was showing new and old, and then part of the new elevations are not there.

And then um the new and old, it's pointing out like if it was a simple um uh facade change of materials, like from the brick to the siding, that's totally a consent agenda thing.

But what I saw was that the facade looks pretty different in that there's something popping up high behind the um I'm I'm glad that somebody's putting this up because this is what I thought we were gonna talk about, and my client will correct me if I'm wrong about that.

But yes, that's correct.

Yeah, I think the wrong material just got attached to the agenda.

Um perhaps uh but this is I think this is what we submitted.

So, like see that second page, the whole left side is oh something got yeah, some part of your it must have gotten messed up when it was transmitted to you.

Um Kelsey, if you go up to that first page, um if I looked at new and previous, you see that right over the so the sign changed.

I'm not really worried about that, but then but uh above that on the left side, there's like a half story something popping up.

And then if you go down to the next one, still a half story something on the top, a lot more building on the top.

And then on down.

So there's a bigger discussion here.

It's not just a material change.

Unless Anna Scott, this got approved by somebody else.

Patrick, I see your hand up.

Yeah, I just wanted to inquire with the applicant.

Is this was it your intent to make these changes to the design?

Because I think I agree with Heather.

I think it's clearly different than what was originally submitted.

And so what was the what and what's your what's the applicant's intent?

Is it to add those additional pieces on and get approval for them?

Or is that a mistake?

Well, I'm not sure that the building shape was um was part of the CDC's review of the original design.

It was more the exterior design elements.

And so I don't think the shape of the building was part of it, and so we're just we're really showing what the new building looks like, but the the part that has to be approved between a uh between um can CDC decisions are the design elements.

So I don't in other words, I'm not sure that that like my understanding.

My understanding is that R Blue Hill in particular is completely under the jurisdiction of the CDC.

Uh what do you mean by that?

In terms of all design elements.

Yeah, that's what Adam told me too.

So Elliot, do you want to address just just I mean, you we can set aside that argument for a minute, but Elliot, um, do you want to, or Paul, do you want to address the reasons that the building shape is slightly different than it was in 2021?

I guess hold on, hold on.

Sure.

Let me let me take back the reins a bit here.

This is typically when um Anna Scott would jump in so that we have a better understanding of what we're looking at.

Um, and also to confirm that this is in Blue Hill, because if it's outside Blue Hill, I think that's this is not in Blue Hill.

That that's my thinking too.

So I I need clarification from planning of are we just looking at the siding, or are we looking at any other parts of this?

So I have what I believe I've pulled up is the most so this project had an original conditional zoning district that then got amended.

Um to um change the lighting.

Um I'm sure that came before the CDC, but I don't know for sure.

I have pulled up the CDC's um condition in that conditional zoning district, and it says the community design commission shall review the building elevations, including the location and screening of all HVAC slash air handling units for the site prior to issuance of zoning compliance permit within the town's historic districts, the historic district commission will act in place of the community design commission.

And is that I don't know if you for the applicant have something different.

Right.

So this is definitely this is not anywhere close to Blue Hill.

This is a normal conditional zoning, so your authority um as a uh advisory body is different here, um, both as a matter of state law and um local ordinance.

So uh yes, the the authority you have here is limited to what is in that condition.

Um that's review.

That's review.

That's a review of the elevations.

It's also reviewing the screening of your HVAC.

Right.

And that also typically we look at like the site plantings that are going around it and lighting.

And so um, if we can go back to looking at those elevations, then um let's let's hit the start button at explain to us the difference in the elevations where the HVAC unit is, because I do see things that are happening up at the top and how you're screening that.

Okay.

Um, and let's and let's go there.

Okay.

Sure, yeah, thank you.

So this that is a um briefly, and then my client can explain more specifically if you need it.

Um there's this is not intended to be a change in the building elevations.

What you're seeing in that top part is um the upper section of the elevator and it's vestibule.

Okay.

So it's not an addition to the building in terms of floor, you know, in terms of floors.

Um I suspect that from a ground level, it's probably not really visible.

I mean, what you're you know, elevations sometimes trick you, but yeah, the appropriate approval here, and I think as we discussed with Mr.

Nicholson in preparing, was really intended to make sure that you were okay with the exterior design elements, and we could talk about that, but I think that that really is just an elevator.

Yeah, that's an elevator elevator issue, and sometimes architectural changes are required like that between you know the project planning and execution.

So that's really what that is.

And if you need more uh information from the hall, that'd be great.

And uh Elliot here with Trinsic, I can just add a little bit to what Ann's saying there.

Um so part of the uh we did have to change a little bit of the elevator vestibule area.

That was uh comments from um fire department.

Um so on that upper level, and so sort of the um conditioned space on that quote unquote second level got a little bit larger as part of that.

Um, but as was mentioned here previously, um, yeah, this is uh really just a focus on an attempt to adjust the materials um along the elevations.

Uh part of it is the original concept, while it looks great, is very unique and very custom.

And this is not um this commercial component is not um you know uh built to suit for a specific tenant.

It's built on essentially on spec, I guess is the way to think about it.

And so part of our thinking here is to um try to bring the materials down to a little bit more of kind of a neutral base level, if you will.

Um and as we go out and we market the space to potential users, um, we'll see kind of what what their use is, what um what is important to them in terms of the the look and feel, and obviously we can bring that back um for approvals as necessary, but that's that's really what the the gist of our um uh of our of our approach here is.

Um one thing this relates to HVAC and screening as it stands today, the building is essentially in what we would call a cold dark shell condition, and so the HVAC units have not been set.

Uh, but understand and hear you loud and clear around you know, screening guidelines and making sure that we do that uh right as as this progresses forward.

Okay.

Ms.

Washburn, if I could say one more thing about this building, um, I don't want to stop your flow, but if you look on the little key guide to the right of the screen, and I know you can't see the whole thing, but it is um the buildings that you see there in I know all of you have driven past this, and if you've driven past it recently, you'll know the dramatic scale that I'm talking about.

But the buildings in uh the dark pink or salmon color and the purple and the sort of light teal buildings are all tall buildings, multi-story buildings that that are sort of visible from the two major roads that um this project is surrounded by the building that we are um here before you uh tonight is that little building that's of course has arrows pointing to it, and as you could see on the elevations, it's you know one and a half-ish stories.

So it is absolutely dwarfed by these other buildings, and in that respect, it's a very small design element of the overall in the overall scale, and it has very there's very little of it that can be seen from the road roads.

Okay.

Um do you guys have anything else that you want to tell us before I go through questions?

We're here to answer any questions that you have.

Thank you very much for your time on that.

All right.

Um let's uh Patrick, would you like to start with any questions?

Heather, come back to me if you would.

So trying to get my mind around.

John, I'm I'm new, so I don't want to I don't want to beat anybody's dead horse or anything like that.

But I did have a now that Heather brought it up, I have a question.

So on the the one, the the images on the left show the white tower with with the elevator.

Um is was there not an elevator before?

Or it just wasn't shown on the elevations.

John, no, there's uh there's always been an elevator contemplated here in this building.

The uh I think the the shape and the scale of the vestibule and the requirements there is what's tweaked probably from old imagery to new imagery.

Okay.

So my question is it looks like there maybe was like a living wall concept um on the majority of this building.

Is you know, replacing and so it would be replacing tan brick with this fiber, you know, James Hardy.

Would that prevent a living wall for the future?

Um or would that material also allow whoever does come in to you know replicate this design as it was originally presented?

Um no, not necessarily.

It wouldn't prevent it.

Um like I said, I think what we're trying to be um uh conscious of here is what that future tenant who they are and and what matters to them and and what works with their brand and their business um to give us some flexibility um in terms of what their look and design um might look like in the future.

Um nothing else from me.

Uh Jim.

No, only a general comment.

I think the earlier comment, it's a relatively small building and surrounded by a fortress.

So whatever changes are made are minimal to the overall project.

Uh Annie, do you have any questions?

I can't see Annie, so I don't know.

Oh, there you are.

Sorry, my audio went out for a second.

Um I don't have any questions at the moment.

Um what Kelsey said earlier kind of reflected my thoughts.

I guess with the living wall being not necessarily a component that's going to be built.

Has there been discussion about plantings around the base of the building?

Um, since that won't be there.

Um so currently it's um obviously hardscape with with a landscape component.

Um that that building, if you were to go back, uh sorry to make you move around, but on the uh initial page, the first page, um, yeah, they're in the bottom right corner.

Um probably uh we're a little further along than that photo there, but obviously it's still still under construction um at the time.

So um, but yes, there's there's uh landscape and artscape uh design that's all contemplated there.

So but sorry, it's not captured in in the photos here.

One of the things that you may also have noticed from the um materials is that the since this project was approved, which was I think 2021, the um the developer has committed to not committed to, but voluntarily um implemented a lot of public art in the form of sculptures and other sort of very durable materials that are much more permanent than a you know a painted wall or something like that.

So there have been a lot of voluntary additions of beautification and artistic elements to this project since the original CEC approval.

The um, yeah, that's right, and thanks for mentioning that.

There's um uh again, sorry to move you around again, but on the aerial um where you see the roundabout, um, that sculpture has been installed.

Um there's a uh second sculpture that area is getting prepped for installation for that second sculpture.

That's at the um call it the other side of the park or the greenway component uh that's interior to the project there.

There's quite a bit of green space.

Um that's part of the project there.

Yeah, you can see there, the pavilion.

Um so you see the roundabouts that sort of bracket the pavilion area.

Um so those uh center points have uh large sculptures uh that are part of that as a public art component.

Um Patrick, do you have questions?

Patrick, your hands up.

Do you have a comment?

Are you asking about me?

Do I would have a comment?

Okay, yeah, it is up.

And yeah, I'm I'm just I'm ready for my round of questioning when it comes to it.

Yeah, we're ready for you.

Okay, thank you.

Um Elliot, thanks for the presentation.

Um is are the materials, the new materials are they less expensive than the older old materials?

Um yeah, short answers yes.

Um and are those materials found anywhere else within the the site.

Yes.

On the town.

Yeah, sorry, I'm done.

Talking to my colleague, yes, uh, we we do.

Yeah, I mean I look this I one of the concerns I have about some of the use of the builder's grade materials is that it may look very dated in only a couple of years.

And I think to the extent that you can use materials that are already represented in other parts of the town, such as in the first rendering.

Very uh great for the town um to be able to anchor the this massive site into the the other of the parts of the town that are being developed.

Otherwise, it sort of looks a little bit choppy.

Um and so I think my my my what I would like to see is that these natural materials are used in a in in a way that are similar to other parts of the town, particularly the historic district.

Is that is that feasible?

And is that something y'all could do?

Um well, this is nowhere near the historic district, so I might be just be confused about your comment.

But this is my my point in saying that is there are other brick buildings along Franklin Street that in the you could take design elements from those buildings to incorporate them into this design.

Oh yeah, I'll let my client respond, but I think that if we if we incorporated the sort of Franklin Street or historic district look to this project, it might be a little incongruous with the rest of it because it is a fair is a fairly modern design overall.

Um but yeah, it and Elliot is did you have a I mean I'm not I'm not arguing the point.

I just think that might be the client's perspective, but Elliot would be able to tell you better.

Yeah, sure.

Um understood uh Patrick.

Um I guess what I would say is the materials that we're suggesting here, um, we refer to this as building seven, but we'll refer to it as the retail building since that's how it's called on the site plan.

Um you will find these materials throughout the project.

Um all of the surrounding um yeah, yeah, yeah.

So if you were to scroll up, um either one the site plan or the aerial, uh all the buildings that are surrounding it, encompassing what we refer to as building seven, the retail building there, um, have the same materials that we're suggesting um to change here.

Yeah, uh yeah, I I think I'm just advocating for more natural stone and and and brick.

Uh I wasn't around when the first iteration of this was approved.

If I were, I would have said the same thing then.

Patrick, I'm gonna I'm I'm gonna cut you off because we'll we can come back to comments, but I'd like to give Kim a chance to ask any questions.

The the only question that I had, and I'm just I'm new, so I just don't know how all this works.

Has the has the signage been changed on this building as well?

And if so, is that even any thing that we review in this committee, or is that something that's already been proposed to whoever needs to approve those changes within the town.

The signage is um is compliant with all of the town's requirements.

Um I don't think that the font of the signage is something that's within the CDC's design purview for this project because that is uh what you see there is just a um a suggestion of what it could look like because we don't know who the retailer will be in this building.

It's a spec building.

Uh, you know, there's I mean not to get too not to editorialize too much, but it's something of it's a minor miracle that this project has gone forward in these economic times.

Um, you know, that was approved right right as the pandemic was still hot, and uh you we all know what has happened since then, and so there has been you know a lot of discussion of how this building could be used.

Um it is going to have a tenant, but it has the more flexible the design can be, the more likely it is to succeed as a retail and in a retail environment.

I mean, as a retail environment.

Um and so that's just what you see there is just a guess as what it could look like because it may end up being, you know, J crew and then they have their own font, right?

So Kim, if I could just weigh in from the town staff perspective, um there are a couple of developments in the town's jurisdiction in which the CDC does have review and approval authority for signs.

This is not one of them.

Um, but thank you for asking the question.

I'm sure Adam talked to you about signs before, but um like and um the applicant said that this is not an actual sign proposal.

Um, and if it were um it would not be part of the review for the CDC.

And in previous projects, Kim, um, when the sign is in for our review, they'll do a similar thing of before and or previous and new and a lot of the time that ends up going through the consent agenda um because is isn't it appropriate sign?

Is it you know there's kind of minor tweaks most of the time.

Understood.

Just curious.

Thank you for the information.

Yeah.

Um, okay.

My questions uh one was already asked by Kelsey with the living wall that I see that that has disappeared, and I understand that it wouldn't be prevented.

Um, but uh it does seem like that was a part of the planting that has now potentially been eliminated, but you're countering with other plantings, is that correct?

Um no, um I wouldn't necessarily, I guess counter, I guess I would say um nothing else has changed in terms of the design, um, whether it's planning or hardscape in and around that building.

Um the only thing that we're here suggesting would just simply be the um sort of the green screen that's applied to the to the exterior there on the building itself.

Okay.

And then does this also mean that the uh mural that has been on the previous that's being eliminated to go straight to the um hardy panel siding?

Um I would think of it as um sort of uh eliminated in the interim.

Um it's it's again it's there's a potential that um we lease this building to a tenant who um loves the idea of a mural.

Um loves the idea potentially of maybe doing something like that, but um we don't know yet at this point, and in order and to go out and do it uh sort of in the blind without knowing who that might be.

Um puts us in a tough spot, frankly.

Got it.

Um I think that's it for my questions that have to do with this.

Uh John, you've got a comment or a question.

Yeah, I have a question.

So um other than the other than the the cost of the materials, um, just from the from the the applicant, um what are what would you say are some of the drivers for wanting to change the materials?

Well, I think primary driver would be flexibility, um, as we continue to you know discuss with potential tenants and try to work to find the right one.

Um one that fits um for the community and for the for the project itself.

Um so flexibility is a big one.

Um, and sure there's certainly a financial component uh to the extent that we're able to save some money um in the interim.

Um what in terms of flexibility?

Why is the why is the I'm just gonna say let's just say fiber cement siding.

What why is that more flexible in your opinion than the brick?

Um it's gonna well again, it's consistent with um, it's slightly less expensive than brick uh to use fiber cement siding, and then it is consistent with uh the the surrounding buildings.

Okay.

Does anybody else have any questions before I ask for public questions and comments?

All right.

Um Scott, does anybody um on the public side have questions or comments?

We do not have any attendees from the public, but I will continue to monitor and let you know if that changes.

Okay.

Um now we're gonna go to comments.

So each of the commissioners, you guys are gonna get a chance to comment on this, and then we will um go to uh uh design on approval.

Okay.

Uh we'll create a motion and then we'll vote on approval or dissent or whatever.

All right.

Um let's go see on my list of people.

Um, I'm gonna start with you.

I'm gonna start with all the newbies to be ready.

Because I'm new, can I get a reminder of how this goes?

It's just any comments that you have on this that you would like to give to the owner and the the representatives here.

So no comments today.

Um, I don't I don't have any comments.

I think that um I I could be wrong, but I I feel like when this was presented, and maybe when we talked with Adam, I thought that this was these changes were more being made as a supply chain issue of not being able to get the materials that were originally um proposed, but but maybe that is not the case.

Um so I just wanted to, I'm just putting that out there, but other than that, I don't have any other comments.

Okay.

Uh John.

Um can I ask one more question before I give a comment?

So uh just for the applicant again.

So um I think what I heard you say is that so on the on the new elevations, you're not showing a mural because that could theoretically be something that is brought in from a client, right?

That and the fact that if we select a particular murals are usually very specific in their imagery.

Um and if we select we select an image that isn't doesn't appeal to, I mean, it could limit the tenants who want to occupy this building.

Okay, and I think I also I think I also heard you say so the the green items on the right that that people have been talking about as a planting wall.

I think I heard you say that you didn't show that on the left because that would that could be done later.

Is that something is that what you said?

A planting wall can be done later.

It's if to uh if we had covered up the imagery on the right, we you wouldn't have been able to see the new materials that were proposed.

Um we'd covered it up with the mature planting.

Um there is I don't there is no architectural feature here that would prevent a some climbing vines from being a feature of this building in the future.

And my client will correct me if I'm wrong about that.

Okay, that's right.

Um I guess my my comments is just that I I think in terms of um kind of human scale and uh the the different nature of the building compared to the residential nature that's around it.

Um honestly I think the brick or the or the fiber cement siding, I think that's gonna differentiate the building enough from what's around it that it could be recognized as a commercial building.

Um but I do agree with Patrick that uh I think the brick actually is gonna be more durable material.

Um that that's that's gonna give you a kind of human scale kind of material that I think generally that's kind of where Chapel Hill is going.

Um it when you walk around the materials that you walk on and the materials that you're at, your your reach.

Um they tend to be a little more human-scale type materials, kind of like brick, as opposed to um as opposed to kind of a generic a more generic kind of commercial style, which is more the fiber cement.

But that's that's the only comment I have.

But I honestly I think you can go either way.

Um if the other board members are fine with fiber cement, I also don't have a problem with it, but I I think the brick is gonna give you is gonna be more last long lasting in the community.

Kelsey, would you like to go next?

Sure.

Um, yeah, I think my only comment is that um if a trellis is not going to be part of the final build prior to any tenant additional investment.

I'd like to see some sort of permanent planters with like um a drought tolerant something green.

Um, because it does feel like this is going to I see there's trees, um, and I know elsewhere in there, but I think it would be nice to have some sort of established planters with an expectation for some sort of live plant um in the the concept.

So something to consider Jim.

I do not have any further comment.

of permanent planters with like um a drought tolerant something green um because it does feel like this is going to I see there's trees um and I know elsewhere in there but I think it would be nice to have some sort of established planters with an expectation for some sort of live plant um in in the the concept so something to consider Jim I do not have any further comment Patrick yeah thank you Ann and Elliot for the presentation this evening and thanks for the work you do in Chapel Hill I think I've got two principal concerns with this these changes one the plants that were proposed to grow alongside the building we're gonna have a number of benefits environmental help to reduce energy cost potentially help to reduce the heat that would be emitted from the building and I think by removing those elements uh you just increase energy usage you increase the amount of heat that will be thrown off this building um in particular because of the materials that are being used and I think I think that's something we really gotta be concerned about given the um degradation we've seen in other parts of the town as a result of of of climate related matters um and so I'm very very concerned about those elements I think also I think this building the scale doesn't necessarily necessarily necessitate that starkness of materials I think the more the town can use tier materials that are cohesive um like the materials that were previously uh proposed um the less dated it will look um in 10 or 15 years um and I don't think the town wants to have dated dated buildings and so I guess I would just really advocate for the re-inclusion of a green wall uh I'm also the public art guy on the commission so uh disappointed to see the public art being taken away um I think university place did public art irrespective of the of the tenants um and then um and then yeah we just like to see the materials go back to to the brick and stone um I think they would uh absorb heat as opposed to um as opposed to to to give it off as well that's all for me Heather okay um so my comments um are kind of running along with everybody else I have um big concerns over the that you're removing the plants um I know that this is inside this fortress but you have people inside that fortress that are gonna be looking at this and what I do like is that um the colors were um uh simplified um to just down to the one so I like that um but then I come back to if anybody's gonna put plants along um on that wall it would be far easier for you to have a brick wall that you can mount to then the hardy the um cementus siding and that cementus siding does not like having plants rubbing up against it um so you're gonna have a lot more maintenance that's gonna come with that from the the um paint being brushed up against if you've got plants up against it so I am with the others in that um I think you're doing a disservice by removing the vegetation but it could totally be done a different way um in that if you had planters or like Kelsey was bringing up there's other ways to bring plants in the the other concern I have is along with Patrick in that you've removed this mural and you don't have to paint the mural now but if you had it earmarked that there was a mural going to be there is a wonderful place to have color and life and again the brick is actually a better base for that mural than the hardy um I'm not an expert on murals that's my take um but um I've seen plenty of murals that have lived very long lives when um uh implemented well um so uh while I like the simplified colors I don't mind it going down to two different materials um I don't know that the cementus material uh it's not oh the I feel like the brick gives you the ability and the flexibility to do some of these things that you're saying that could be implemented later and that might that uh flexibility seems like it would be removed by going to the cementus siding does anybody else have any other comments before we move on okay um Scott do we need to make a motion to uh move forward um that would be strongly recommended yes um I would I I'm not for this um if anybody would like to make an emotion for approval please do so um

Um Anna Scott, do we need to make a motion to uh move forward?

Um that would be strongly recommended.

Yes.

Um I would I I'm not for this.

Um if anybody would like to make a motion for approval, please do so.

Um but that those those are my feelings.

I would make a motion for approval.

Okay.

If I may, Ann and Elliot, would would there be interest on your part revising this proposal based on the feedback that we've given this evening and bringing it back to the CDC in light of some of the concerns you've heard expressed here.

Um I think this is taking us by surprise.

Uh so we um I'd have to talk to my client about it.

I I urge the committee, um, the commission excuse me to bear in mind the economic realities of this project.

Um this is we are not coming to the commission lightly on this.

This project has been is so much more expensive than anybody would have imagined when it was approved in 2021, and yet it's still come to Chapel Hill.

Um, and the applicant has not skimped on the appearance of this of this project um in really it's a very impressive uh outlay of effort to make a project that was way more expensive than they expected it to be, still as lovely as they said it would be.

And so I just urge you to bear that in mind when you're making your decision about this.

It is a very small design element, and we we think that what came before you tonight is very consistent with the overall look of the of the um of the community that was approved by this design commit commission uh a while back.

And so we thought these were pretty minor and changes to help us uh help to help the developer make this an economically feasible site for retail to support the community so we don't have empty storefront because that's way less attractive than an active building.

And so I would just so I I can ask my client about planters um and and whether that's something that would help um I think what we've I don't know about the brick.

I mean, I feel like that's something that's gonna be problematic, but uh I don't know how you want to proceed procedurally, because I mean I you know this was on consent, so I know this is taking up some time for you tonight.

So I you know, if we could have time to talk to my client, but I can't really do it right here.

I'd like to put it, but I also know that there was a motion, there was a motion on the table, so I don't mean to mess you up procedurally.

Well, one thing I would like to um kind of clarify of what I heard, and Jim will come back to the motion because maybe we can modify the motion.

But there's two big things.

One is the that it's not just simply uh material change, Ann.

The change is a material change of site from brick to siding.

It is also the removal of planters, but there's been nothing in your documentation saying that that would be implemented later.

And then the last thing is that the removal of the murals.

So the public art has been removed, and there was nothing in your documentation to say how that was going to be somewhere else or how you were going to um basically balance it out.

So with what we have seen, the change, those are the changes, siding plants, and public art removal.

Um the uh my client would be happy to commit some to some additional planters.

They're gonna be many, many throughout the community.

Um, and they can commit to having them on this site as well to the extent that they don't uh create ingress and egress problems because I know we have to meet fire code and you know the other building standards that uh you know are in the purview of other people.

So to the extent that we can comply with that, we can have planters at the entryways and um visible spots that would would beautify that green, make that greener if that's uh suitable to the commission.

Uh Kim, please.

I guess the question that I had was I was just curious to know.

Um, since this is a cost-saving um proposal, what what's the cost difference to the from the original proposal to this one?

I don't have that information, but my client might.

I'm not sh uh I would maybe not um Yeah, I don't I don't have to I wouldn't necessarily put it in evidence, but I do I we might I don't know.

I don't have an exact number um handy right now.

I I just just know that it would be uh better for the budget.

Okay.

Jim, you had uh motion on the table.

Would you like to modify it at all or keep it as it is?

I'd like to keep it as it is.

I've been very uh sensitive to Ms.

Anderson's comments and um I would feel like the cost and et cetera would be important to move this project forward.

Okay.

Do I have a second to it?

Jim, can you restate your motion?

I would make a motion to approve the project.

Is that correct way of stating it?

Uh yeah, motion to approve.

Yeah.

Um is there anyone that would like to second?

I can second that.

Okay.

Um sorry.

Would it be possible to motion to approve um the material change and then have further discussion on the removal of the wall and the green wall and the mural at a later meeting?

No, I think I think you gotta take it all as one.

Really?

Yes.

Okay, thank you.

Yeah.

Okay.

Um I'm gonna go one by one and um uh um you can say that you approve or no that you oppose.

Okay.

Um we'll go I'm gonna just go across the board as I see you.

Kim.

Uh no.

Annie.

No.

Kelsey.

Um uh I um I'm appreciate the willingness to add the planters.

I'm going to say no, and that we can hopefully see this again with you know, and a new proposal.

Um, you're talking to me.

Um I'll I'll say yes.

Jim.

Yes.

Patrick.

No.

And I am a no.

So Madam Chair, if I may I ask a question.

Yeah.

So this um project is nearing construction completion.

Um it's been very hard, hard fought.

Uh so time is really of the essence in getting some notion of what this building can look like.

Um there was a proposal by one of your members to approve portions of the suggested changes.

I we could Kelsey, would you like to put a new motion forward?

If if it's allowed, I um, you know, understanding business complexities, right?

So um I would motion to approve the material change.

Um, but not approve the removal of the green wall and mural and request that the developer come back with um, I guess either a financial solution that would accommodate the loss of public art and green, um, green element of the design of this building.

May I if I I realize the time for questions has passed, but since to evaluate the feasibility of that proposal, could I ask my client to weigh in on whether a green wall can still be implemented with this material change.

If that if that's a question that can be answered, Elliot, I'm not sure.

Yeah, I I I don't know um with 100% certain.

I I believe so.

Um I'll leave it then, I believe so.

And uh I I want to be sensitive to you all the time as well.

I I think that I think there's definitely an appetite on the commission's part to consider alternative options.

I also understand that you all need to confer and plan and be able to analyze what's feasible and possible from both from a cost standpoint and then from a from a design standpoint.

Um I I would propose that um we table this issue to give you all a chance to have that conversation and then and then um happy to have conversations um with other commission members.

Um so we're compliant with state law.

Um but hopefully the the objective of this conversation would be to try to get to the consent, the other this back on the consent agenda to get it approved as quick as possible.

I appreciate that.

Uh you only meet monthly, so no, that that's why I'm proposing that we meet outside of this meeting in in in compliance with state law.

Anna Scott, would you was is that I'd have to we have done it for other commissions.

It is not typical.

Um it takes some coordination to find a time to get quorum when the applicant can be there.

Um, but legally, yes, we we can have a meeting off cycle as long as we do public notice of the meeting.

Um in compliance with state law, like Patrick said.

Um but with the holidays coming up, I don't anticipate that happening until uh mid January at the earliest, and then uh the regularly scheduled meeting would be maybe a week or two later.

Yep, so it's a month anyway.

So um I'm a little at a little bit of a loss as to what to do here because I think that we do have it looks like there's a prospect of getting approval for some of what we're asking for, the materials change, and I would just put out there that I wonder what your appetite would be for if we for um allowing the materials change with a commitment to substantial planters and um supporting a tenant in their efforts to put up a mural um and any green implementation that they can put in place.

Um we could come up with some wording for that, but I feel like that is I think Kelsey kind of wrapped that up in her motion.

And Anna Scott, as long as that is within what we can do, then I would say let us vote on that motion.

Well, go ahead.

So I think what the applicant has proposed is fair game um for you to vote on.

What I have written as Kelsey's motion is to approve the material change, but not the green wall and bureau and ask the applicant to come back to accommodate green design and public art.

Um so we haven't had a second on that motion.

Um I think you can I do feel like that kind of primes us, Ann, for what you're asking for, but it it's basically addressing our concerns um and would allow you to finish your building.

Um, but you're what you're taking on is that you still need to have the flexibility to be able to do the mural or plantings.

Well, the um the planting and when we're talking about plantings, I assume we're talking about the green wall that will that would cover portion of the building.

Is that still I mean, I just want to make sure we're on the same page on that.

Is that right?

I think we would like to leave.

Oh, sorry, go ahead, Heather.

No, Kelsey, I think you're addressing it.

In my motion, I was I wanted to give you guys the flexibility to come back with a proposal that you felt was feasible economically, but would also accommodate, you know, aesthetically what a green wall might have.

So if it's really tall, I don't I'm not gonna propose what it is.

Um, but you know, I think we're open to either it being a green wall or an alternative that would accommodate some of the lack or that would accommodate the lack of um you know green plantings in this new design.

And can I just I'm sorry to interject, but Anna Scott, would you be so kind as to read the condition language?

I mean, so I'm sorry, the CDC review language from the CZ again, as you did at the beginning of this meeting.

Yes.

I don't know where I have I know we've had a lot of discussion about plantings, but I I wasn't aware that the CDC had um landscape purview in this project, and I feel like we may have gone too far down that road um when it's not appropriate to the project, but I just don't recall before Anna Scott comes in.

So the elevations that we were given is what we're looking at, and so the green wall is a part of your elevation.

Well, it it is, but the the that that is that's true.

That was from their their the rendering that was approved that was part of the approval before, but what was approved, I believe were the materials and and so what we're what we were proposing here is new different materials, and we don't show the green wall covering those because then you wouldn't be able to see them for this, and so that was for transparency.

I was just curious what the language of the conditions are.

Anna Scott, what you got?

Okay, so for the community design commission, the community design shall review, sorry, the community design commission shall review the building elevations, including the location and screening of all HVAC slash air handling units for the site prior to issuance of the zoning compliance permit.

So I think I I think what I the reason I've asked for that to be read is I believe that much of what we're talking about here is outside of the CDC's purview on in this matter, and um and so one of the reasons that we didn't address how we would replace plantings is because we it never occurred to us that that would be something that the CDC would be would base their denial on because I don't think it's within your authority on this project.

Let me let me ask Anna Scott a question disrespectfully.

Is I'm just because I think I appreciate you pointing this out, and Anna Scott, if if something's on a building that was previously shown on the building, does that not does that not include it in the design of the building?

I cannot answer that question.

Okay.

Okay.

Um as chair, I'm gonna call this discussion at this point because we're going round and round and round.

If um if we want to do it straight out as it is, we've already had the motion that has gone through and was um and it did not pass.

If we would like another if we would like to move forward on Kelsey's motion, we would need a second, and we can do that.

Otherwise, this is done.

And so I go so Kelsey had a motion on the floor.

Do I have a second?

Um, and Anna Scott, can you read Kelsey's motion one more time?

Kelsey moved to approve the material change, but not the green wall and the mural, and ask the applicant to come back to accommodate the green design and public art.

That's a summarization.

Kelsey, please speak up if I miss um.

I think you articulated that and summarized it.

Well, okay.

Do I have a second?

I can second the motion.

Thanks, John.

Okay.

I'm gonna go one by one through and you can give your vote.

Okay.

Um Kelsey, I'll start with you.

I support the motion.

Um John.

Yes, support.

Jim.

Yes.

Annie.

Yes, support.

Patrick.

No, only because I'm I've got concerns that you can't grow the green wall on the on the the materials that are being proposed to use.

Kim.

I'm a no.

And um I'm also a no.

Um so uh it carries you got four yeses, three no's.

So just so I can make sure I understand.

So what has been approved is the materials change and that the commission um in order to not do the green element that um well, I guess I'm again, I don't think we had the green element in our application, but but what you the commission would like to see is us come back and talk about the green elements.

But you're replacing the green wall with as the green element and what you're doing as far as the mural.

And the commission would like us to come back with information about that.

Yes.

Okay, so thank you for the for approving the materials change.

We appreciate that tonight.

Could I ask Anna a question?

Yeah.

Um, so my understanding from Adam is that the CDC reviews three things.

They review the elevations, they review site landscaping and or non-landscaping buffers, and they review site lighting.

Is that true?

I I do not um, yes, that is generally true.

I do not know the specific context uh and history of this project.

Um, since it was supposed to be on the consent agenda, I can touch base with Adam.

Um, and we can have a chat and we can talk to the officers about the green wall and what the applicant needs to come back with.

Um, but I do think the commission has made it clear that there are concerns about losing that element of the design and would like to see something, some more information on that, um, whether the applicant will be required to, I think is something we can um figure out and let the applicant know before materials need to be submitted for the next agenda to go out.

And you look like you have something to say.

Oh, I no, I I've thanks to the commission for approving the materials change.

It's my understanding that we are now authorized to change the materials um based on the plain language of what was approved.

So as to the rest of it, we'll be happy to come back to the commission with some more information.

And um, this developer is very much committed to you know making this an aesthetically pleasing project.

So happy to provide you more information about that.

But I don't I don't under I don't do not understand there to be any condition on um on us going ahead with the materials change.

So we we thanks thank you for that.

Okay.

With that, Quagmire.

All right, thanks, Ann.

Appreciate everybody's time for working through this.

And I know that this has been a longer haul than we had anticipated.

Um, but uh I adjourn this meeting.

Motion to adjourn.

Can I get a motion?

I get that.

Motion to adjourn.

Or second Patrick's motion.

Second.

And if uh all approvals, raise your hand, hit your hand thing.

Any opposed?

Yay, we can adjourn.

And we'll see you in January.

Um look for my email.

Thanks all for that.