Everyone, welcome to the March twenty-fifth meeting of the Chapel Hill Town Council.

We are glad to have you join us.

Um, this evening we have two items on our agenda for discussion or action.

Um, first, we'll be discussing appropriation of three million dollars in excess fund balance from the twenty twenty-five, twenty twenty-six fiscal year.

Second, we have the town's public housing program, annual plan, admissions, and continued occupancy policy.

Um, for the clerk, council member Ryan will not be joining us this evening.

And as a reminder to council members, we will go into closed session immediately following this meeting.

Um, before we get underway, we did want to take a moment to share that we are deeply saddened by the passing of Miss Mae McClendon, um, a remarkable leader, whose dedication and service helped shape the Chapel Hill community for the better.

Her legacy of compassion, advocacy, and leadership will continue to inspire all who had the privilege of knowing her and benefiting from her work.

On behalf of the town of Chapel Hill, uh, we extend our heartfelt condolences to her daughter, um, Anissa or Nisi, and all and all who loved her, um, as well as her sister, Helen.

Uh, Miss May's contributions to our community will not be forgotten, and her impact will be felt for many generations to come.

We will honor her life and legacy more formally at a town council meeting in April when her family will hopefully be able to join us.

And with that her spirit in mind, we will move on to tonight's proclamations.

So, first up, we have an announcement for National Library Week.

Um, in the audience, we have Assistant Library Director Laura Brown, who will receive the proclamation.

Uh, Miss Brown and other library staff who are here.

Would you please join Councilmember Knollert up front for this announcement?

All right.

Good evening, everybody.

National Library Week.

Libraries spark creativity.

They fuel imagination and they inspire lifelong learning, offering welcoming spaces where community members of all ages can find joy through exploration and discovery.

They serve as vibrant community hubs, connecting people with knowledge, technology, and resources while fostering civic engagement and cultural enrichment.

They support job seekers and lifelong learners, and they nurture young minds through programs that spark curiosity and a love of learning.

As we celebrate National Library Week, we encourage all residents to visit the Chapel Hill Public Library, explore its resources and find your joy.

And that week is April nineteenth to twenty-fifth, twenty twenty-six.

So thank you very much to our librarians and to everybody who visits the library.

Thanks to the amazing staff who are always coming up with new ways to engage our curiosity and keep us reading and learning.

So please let your entire team know how much we appreciate them.

For our second proclamation, I'd like to invite Miss Dolores Bailey and the entire Empowerment Inc.

team and all of the the super fans to join.

Please join Councilmember Millie Miller Fushi up front, who is also on brand in her red and black and white.

Pardon me, ma'am.

Yes.

Come on, all right.

It's only been 30 years.

This is really exciting.

Is everybody in place?

No, Mary's coming.

Okay.

Oh, yes.

Come on.

Minister Campbell, please.

Come on, don't make me call you out.

Come on.

Yes.

Before I begin with the proclamation, I just want to say how excited we all are that on April 1st we will be able to welcome new tenants into the peach apartment.

So evening everyone.

On behalf of the mayor and town, council of Chapel Hill, we are proud to recognize an organization that has been a cornerstone of community strength and opportunity for three decades.

Since its founding in April 19th, 1996, Empowerment Inc.

has been guided by a powerful mission to empower individuals and communities through affordable housing, grassroots economic development and advocacy.

Born from the vision of two master of social work students at University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, and shaped by the voices of Northside, Pine Knowles, Tin Top, and Carver Street neighbors.

Empowerment has remained deeply rooted in community.

Through its work, empowerment has helped families achieve homeownership, expanded access to affordable housing, and supported small businesses, particularly those led by women and entrepreneurs of color.

Today, the organization manages dozens of affordable housing units across Orange County, provides HUD certific certified housing counseling with one hundred percent foreclosure prevention rate, and supports local entrepreneurs through innovative programs like Bright Pat Bright Path Solutions.

Strengthening neighborhoods through community watch programs, youth career development, and partnerships that foster connection safety and opportunity.

Now, therefore, with deep gratitude, the Chapel Hill Mayor and Town Council do hereby proclaim Wednesday, March twenty-fifth, twenty twenty-six as empowerment day in Chapel Hill.

And encourage all residents to celebrate its lasting contributions to building stronger, more equitable communities.

Congratulations.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Good to see you.

Thank you all for being here tonight and for everything you do to strengthen the community here and in Chapel Hill.

Thank you.

And before we move on, I would ask for a one more round of applause for empowerment on 30 years of dedicated and impactful service to our community.

Thank you.

That brings us to announcements.

I have a couple short ones.

As we usher in spring, there are a lot of great activities and upcoming events for people of all ages, including the fifth annual Creek Week celebration aimed at helping everyone learn more about our local waterways.

Also, over the next couple of weeks, we invite members of the community to join us in celebrating some town successes.

This Friday, March 27th at 1030 a.m.

will be the groundbreaking for the 2200 Homestead Affordable Housing Community.

And on Monday, April 6th at 5 30, we will have the grand opening for the homestead skate park.

Last but not least, council meets again on Wednesday, April 8th at the library for a work session.

We'll begin at 6 p.m.

and the public is encouraged to attend.

Additional information on these and other meetings and events can be found on our website and featured in our town, our weekly e-newsletter.

Council members, is anyone have anything else to share?

Yes.

Mayor Pro Tembe.

Thank you.

I want to say congratulations to our heels.

It is March Madness.

I don't have to tell people in this room that I am saddened to hear of the departure of Coach Davis.

And I am excited to continue to cheer our women Tar Hills, who will be playing University of Connecticut Yukon Huskies on Friday at 5 o'clock.

As a season ticket holder, I'm excited to see them show up in the suite 16.

Thank you.

Go heels.

Anything else?

Okay.

Next up, we invite members of the public to comment on items not on the printed agenda.

Please sign up with the town clerk at the table on the left side of the chamber toward the front of the room.

If you're here to speak on a specific agenda item, there'll be a presentation on the item, followed by council clarifying questions and then public comment.

To help keep things running smoothly, Mayor Pro Temberry will call two names at a time.

If you're in the middle or uh row near the back of the chamber, please come on up and be ready.

Um, public input is really important to us.

So I want to remind our audience that we want everyone to be heard and feel comfortable and also allow the council to hear the speaker.

So please refrain from commenting or clapping.

So with that, Mayor Pro Tem Berry.

All right, we have three for public comment, starting with Jim Bolbrook, followed by Jim Kitchen.

Thank you.

Good evening, members of the council.

In 2014, the town council made a decision to allow commercial golf courses to use leaf blowers with no sound limitations.

That decision was granted based on promises that the Chapel Hill Country Club made regarding use of clean energy blowers with low noise output.

The conditions under which that exemption was granted have been systematically ignored by the Chapel Hill Country Club for over a decade.

The general manager of the club made the following promises.

First, he claimed the club's equipment was specially designed to be quieter than residential blowers.

Second, he committed the club to maintaining top technology to lower noise and vibration.

Third, he explicitly pointed towards a future of green technology and electric battery equipment.

Based on these assurances of being a good neighbor, the council gave the club an exemption on the noise limitations that everyone else has to follow.

Instead of transitioning to the electric technology as they promised, the club recently leased a fleet of 30 industrial grade gas blowers that are far louder and more disruptive than what they used in 2014.

The true sound power level of these machines is 100 to 112 decibels as loud as a rock concert.

I want to emphasize that I've tried to resolve this privately.

Myself and several neighbors met with the current general manager, CW Cook.

We offered a solution.

We offered to personally pay for the quieter modern equipment for the club to use near our property lines.

The club was not receptive to our request.

Unfortunately, the club has a history of operating outside of the rules and regulations that govern Chapel Hill.

On January 2nd, 2024, the country club was issued a stop work order on a multi-million dollar irrigation project that they did not obtain a permit for.

This was not the first time the club had been issued a citation for conducting work without a permit.

Furthermore, in February of 2023, the club conducted land clearing and added impervious surface on club property without a permit.

I conducted a permit search online and was unable to find any permit issued for this work.

As you can see, not only has the club not honored what it presented before you in 2014, it has repeatedly and habitually operated outside of the town rules.

Representing over 34 owners living on or around the golf course.

I am humbly asking the council to revoke the special noise exemption for the Chapel Hill Country Club so that they will be held to the same good neighbor noise standards that all citizens of our town are held to.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Jim Kitchen, followed by Selena Smith.

My name is Jim Kitchen.

I'm gonna read this just so I can be ready at three minutes.

Um I've been in Chapel Hill since 1982.

I wanted to address you uh regarding a noise issue in and around the Chapel Country Club.

This is an issue of health and safety.

When I purchased my home in 2001, the club raked sand traps and raked up leaves.

In 2014, the club was exempted from the Chapel Hill Noise Ordinance.

Not only start early, hey, that makes sense.

They have a business to run.

I'm an entrepreneurship professor.

Completely understand they need to get the course ready for people that are going to tee off at 8 o'clock.

Don't have a problem with that.

But they were also exempted from all noise restrictions because they promised to use emerging electronic uh electric technology.

But not only did this happen, but the equipment that they use has gotten much louder.

I want to give you an example.

You have it in front of you.

One piece of equipment that they recently just uh bought.

It's called a buffalo.

It's a double blower that goes up and down.

If I live on the first fairway, you see it, they have maybe six or seven leaves, and they blow it.

They blow those six or seven leaves, and then they come down all the way down the fairway 400 yards and 400 yards, and then they blow those seven leaves another 10 yards.

They go up and down seven or eight times each fairway to blow leaves and pine cones.

Hey, I understand during the fall, but it makes no sense right now, and they do it all year long.

The manufacturer of this equipment, I confirmed with them that this generates 128 decibels.

It literally blows me out of bed in the morning.

I got this number directly from them.

The noise level is the equivalent of a Motley Crew concert at the crack of dawn when it's dark.

It just makes no sense.

Um, residents don't have air protection on.

Okay, my house is really close to the golf course.

This is not the way that I bought when I bought my house.

It's so bad I have changed where I live in my home, where I sleep in my home.

The noise machine is creates a combination of two different types of noise, the engine noise, which produces a low frequency rumble that can be felt as much as it can be heard, and the high velocity air blast coming from the turbine creates a jet engine-like noise.

A plane taking off at RDU Airport creates a hundred and twenty decibels.

That is the sound of this machine.

It's extraordinarily unhealthy.

If you Google it, if you chat GBT at 128 decibels, um, it is the equivalent.

Y'all listen to me on this.

If you took a 65 decibel leaf blower, is the equivalent as it builds to two million leaf blowers simultaneously operating.

That's how loud 128 decibels, two million leaf blowers at 65 decibels.

I've been a club member for 25 years.

Our new club manager, CW, he's a gentleman.

I like him.

However, the club is uh does not is they're not restricted by any noise ordinance.

They've not agreed to do anything, they have no incentive to do anything.

Uh I just want them to abide by the same rules that the rest of Chapel Hill has to.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Selena Smith.

Hello, everybody.

Are you able to hear me?

Thank you.

Good evening, members of the council.

My name is Salima Smith.

I'm a resident of Elliott Woods apartments.

I'm here because while you all are voting this evening on this deal with VITIS, the residents are being left in the dark.

I've never sought to ask you to vote no.

I don't think any resident is opposed to someone coming in and fixing things.

What we're asking for is that you mandate guarantees in writing and full transparency before this moves forward.

We have neither.

When the developer was here at your meeting, I believe it was on the 4th.

Uh, they stated that the internal renovations would take approximately 22 days, or at max people would be in hotels for 22 days.

That's a terrifying estimate, given the fact that the unit I live in, which the roof of it houses nine units in total, the entire roof needs to be replaced.

What is the remediation plan for the mold in the moisture that's affecting everyone's homes?

We need technical answers, not pictures of new light fixtures.

There's a massive gap in the relocation plan.

If residents are moved to a hotel for 22 days and the work inevitably inevitably runs over, who's responsible for the extended bill?

Where's the hotel located?

If it's miles away from my support system, that is displacement, not a renovation.

Vitus did admit uh when he was here last that they've not contacted any local community organizations that could assist during this transition.

This just showed me a profound lack of concern for those of us living in these units.

If the developers won't do it, I'm asking the council today.

Who are these organizations?

I'd like to know so that I can reach out and figure out what my plan is.

Chapel Hill prides itself on protecting its citizens.

Right now, I don't feel protected.

I don't feel informed.

I need the town to ensure that any deal includes legally binding protections for residents regarding stay extensions, mold remediation, rate stability, transparency is just not a slide deck.

It's a sign guarantee.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um, thank you to everyone who came forward with a request tonight.

Um while the town no longer has a formal petition process sharing your idea, your concerns and ideas with your local government is a valued First Amendment right.

Um, and something we continue to welcome and support.

Um, council does not take immediate action on these requests, um, but they are carefully reviewed by the town manager and staff who will review the matter and respond to us and to you as well.

All right.

Um up next is our consent agenda.

Council members.

Um, we have added one item, which is appointment of a voting delegate for the upcoming league of municipalities board election.

Umks to Mayor Pro Temvery for volunteering and to others who were willing to serve as well.

Um, do I have a motion to approve the consent agenda as amended?

So moved.

Second.

Moved by council member McCullough, seconded by council member Barry.

If we didn't move consent, I would be really sad.

Oh, sorry, Miller Fushi.

Um, all those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, please say nay.

Motion is unanimous.

Um, and we're eight tonight, so I have to remember that too.

Um before we move on, I do want to highlight item four for our audience, which uses a new funding tool to preserve two existing affordable housing apartment communities here in Chapel Hill.

Um, preserving affordable housing and keeping people in their homes are important goals for the town.

And this one does both, and we are very thankful for that coming forward.

And also we appreciate you coming to speak, and I'm hopeful we'll be getting you additional information.

Um, up next um is item number six, uh, fiscal year 2025 excess fund balance appropriations proposal.

And our business management director, Amy Olin, is here to walk us through.

Maybe okay.

Good evening, Mayor and Council.

My name is Amy Olin.

I'm the director of business management.

I'm here tonight to present on the fiscal year 2025 excess fund balance appropriation.

We began this conversation with council in February when we presented our year-end financial results.

We're returning this evening with additional information related to the recommended plan for council to consider tonight.

So our recommendation for this evening is that council consider enacting budget ordinance 0-1 to approve the appropriation of $3 million in fiscal year 25 general fund excess fund balance.

To start, we'll provide some background and context for best practices related to how we found ourselves with excess fund balance from fiscal year 25.

Ending the year with excess fund balance reflects strong financial management.

This outcome directly supports council's goal of organizational and fiscal sustainability and reinforces our commitment to responsible budgeting and long-term fiscal resilience.

Both the local government commission and the bond rating agencies encourage jurisdictions to build and maintain healthy fund balance levels, but not to rely on them to balance the budget.

Best practice for excess fund balance is to use this type of one-time funding for one-time needs.

Fiscal year 25 ended in a much stronger financial position than we had originally anticipated.

Mid year we were preparing for a very different outcome.

Sales tax revenues were dropping sharply, and we anticipated minimal lapse salary savings.

In response, we asked departments to pause on major expenditures to delay non-critical hiring and hold off on discretionary projects.

These decisions were intentional and designed to protect our year-end financial position.

After the budget was adopted, the picture improved.

Sales tax revenues and inspection permanent revenues came in stronger than we projected, and lapse salary savings were higher than anticipated.

Those shifts helped us close the year in a much better place.

It's important to note that these results represent about $3 million in one-time funds, not new ongoing revenue.

These funds don't change the fundamentals of our operating budget, which must continue to rely on sustainable and recurring revenues.

Next, we'll provide details supporting staff's recommendation.

At this year's council retreat, we heard from you that you wanted staff to explain the why behind the information we bring you.

So here's some of the information related to why and how we came up with our recommendation.

This is one-time funding that must be used for one-time needs.

These projects address discrete standalone costs that don't create future budget obligations.

Each of the projects identified are unfunded, with no alternate funding source existing, and have a current need for funding.

The town's needs exceed the available resources we have.

Selecting targeted projects ensures we stay disciplined and avoid overcommitting our limited funds and focusing on the highest impact opportunities.

The proposed recommendation of these funds reflects a careful alignment of organizational needs and council priorities, focusing funding on where we can make the greatest impact now.

We've determined that the following allocation would meet the current funding needs and that our one-time uses of funds.

Lastly, we'll share some project details about each of our recommended funding areas.

This item sets aside 100,000 to cover work that has been completed as part of the ongoing green track master planning process.

That work includes the market and financial feasibility analysis completed by the Development Finance Initiative, the geotechnical study, and site planning efforts needed to support the next phase of planning.

Orange County has managed the contracts and paid vendors for this work.

Under the 2021 interlocal agreement, the town is responsible for reimbursing 43%, which is our share of the total cost.

That same interlocal agreement commits Orange County, Carborough, and Chapel Hill to jointly plan for the future use and redevelopment of the green tract.

This agreement did not route under our normal procurement processes, and so funding was not included in the current budget.

And we do not currently have an identified alternate funding source.

This appropriation ensures that we can fulfill the town's contractual and intergovernmental obligation.

As part of ongoing recovery work from Tropical Storm Chantal, the town is required to manage a complex FEMA public assistance grant to ensure that we meet all FEMA requirements and protect our eligibility for reimbursement.

The town is contracted with IEM International, which is a firm with deep expertise in FEMA and North Carolina emergency management.

The contract is for $140,000, which represents 2% of the town's estimated $7 million in storm related damage.

Under FEMA's public assistance program, these administrative costs are fully reimbursable, meaning the town should recover these expenses once FEMA processes the town's claims.

IEM brings specialized technical expertise that ensures we stay on track with FEMA deadlines, documentation requirements, and evolving operational processes.

Their team advocates for us throughout the review process and helps our departments organize and prepare the detailed records that FEMA requires.

While FEMA will reimburse us for these costs, that reimbursements process will come later.

At this time, we don't have an identified funding source to cover these expenses up front, so this item fills that gap until reimbursement is received.

Over the past year, we've made updates to the loose leaf collection program to encourage residents to handle leaves in more sustainable ways with the town's in alignment with the town's climate action plan.

Even with those changes, we still see a natural buildup of loose leaves along curbs every fall.

To address this in a timely and efficient manner, we're proposing the purchase of a leaf vacuum truck.

This truck is designed specifically to remove accumulated leaves quickly and effectively.

It'll supplement our existing street sweepers and cleaning curb lines, which are not as efficient when the leaves are piled or wet and will help prevent future stormwater concerns.

Leaf vacuum equipment is the standard used across other municipalities facing similar seasonal needs, and it represents a best practice approach to maintaining clean street edges.

Our public works staff was able to get a notable price reduction.

Our original estimate was $400,000 for a 25 model.

This has freed up some funding that we've directed to the shortfall in the parking fund, which we'll touch on shortly.

For downtown, these funds are intended to directly support downtown safety, attraction, and overall experience.

This aligns closely with several of council's stated priorities for strengthening the vitality and accessibility of downtown Chapel Hill.

One of the first goals is to improve wayfinding, making it easier for residents and visitors to find key destinations, most notably the new public restrooms at the 125 East Rosemary Deck.

Better signage helps reinforce downtown as a welcoming and easy to navigate place.

These funds will also be used to help support costs associated with the new downtown public police station, which uh strengthens our public safety presence and responsiveness in the downtown area.

We plan to invest in lights and decorations that enhance the look and feel of downtown and contribute to a more vibrant and engaging environment.

Beyond these specific uses, the funds will support other needs that improve the experience for businesses, residents, and visitors based on ongoing conversations that have been had with our downtown partners and stakeholders.

These dollars replace the previous excess allocation that went to the visitors bureau.

The town is the only jurisdiction in Orange County that has historically provided additional funding to the visitors bureau by managing the funds internally.

The town can ensure that they're deployed in ways that best meet the needs of our community and respond quickly to emerging priorities.

Related to the fire station number four, on February 13th, the town received updated cost estimates from a third party for the demolition work at Fire Station 4.

The total projected cost is 416,640, and the work will be split into two phases.

The first phase will cover the demolition of the two training towers and site elements, and the second phase involves demolishing the Fire Station 4 building itself.

We're asking council to allocate $500,000 to ensure we have adequate contingency funding in place.

This gives us the flexibility to address any unforeseen site issues that may begin or may surface once demolition begins.

Construction is estimated to cost between 9.9 and 10.5 million, and that figure does not include demolition costs.

The town has 10 million dollars and general obligation bonds for the construction of the fire station 4.

We've already issued 1.23 million dollars for design work, leaving $8.77 million for construction.

Directing 500,000 from excess fund balance will help cover some of the gap remaining between the bond funds and the anticipated construction cost.

This ensures we can move forward without delays and positions us to keep the project aligned with the fire department's operational needs.

Overall, this allocation provides the financial certainty we need to address and complete the demolition and additional site needs responsibly and advanced construction of a modern facility that supports the health, safety, and effectiveness of our firefighters.

For fiscal year 26, the parking fund will fall short of revenue projections to prevent the debt fund from needing to transfer even more to cover the gap, which would delay other planned debt finance projects.

We're recommending this allocation from excess fund balance.

This is a bridge that allows us to stabilize the parking fund while we move forward with structural improvements to the parking fund.

We're seeing a shortfall in the parking fund due to several overlapping factors.

First, construction of the new deck took longer than anticipated.

Second, the Wallace DAC has remained open longer than originally planned.

We're still carrying several legacy leases that were negotiated under previous market conditions.

And in some cases, cost more than they actually generate.

Like many communities, parking demand shifted after the pandemic, especially with hybrid work patterns and changes in downtown activity.

To address these structural issues, the town is planning a comprehensive parking study.

This will help us hopefully right size the system for current demand and ensure long-term financial sustainability.

As part of that work, staff are evaluating several strategies to improve performance, adjusting parking rates where appropriate, passing credit card processing fees on to the user, rebalancing leased versus hourly spaces, phasing out lease agreements that aren't financially sustainable, focusing on the management of town owned lots, decks, and on street parking where we have control over pricing and utilization.

This gap must be filled.

We can either appropriate excess fund balance to cover the gap, or we'll have to cover the gap with a debt fund because the debt must be paid.

The direct impact of that decision would be that projects were planned that were planned for issuance, such as fire stations three and four and some affordable housing projects, such as Legion Road and the related affordable housing on the fire station four property, would be delayed.

In closing, we carefully evaluated a range of options in developing this recommendation.

The items included in the recommendation do not have alternate funding sources available, yet they represent high priority needs for the organization.

They also exclude enterprise fund needs and priorities as those are best supported through revenues generated within their respective functional areas.

Following the discussion at the February 11th audit results presentation, we prepare detailed responses to address, hopefully address some of the interests and concerns raised by council that evening.

Tonight, staff recommends that council consider enacting budget ordinance 0 1 to approve the appropriation of $3 million in general fund excess fund balance.

That concludes my presentation for this evening.

I'm happy to take your questions.

Thank you.

Council questions?

Councilmember McCullough, followed by Councilmember Nollart.

Yeah, I was I was worried about how much the fire stations are going to cost.

I was thinking that when we when we decided to uh do the bond a couple of years ago, and we were thinking that we would be able to build two fire stations for $15 million, and now it looks like we might get one for $12.

Uh well, we are working with our design firm to figure out plans for the Fire Station 4 fire station, and so some of the costs are still in progress in determining what the actual cost will look like.

Um the design firm presented several options.

We've picked the one that hopefully will meet the needs of the fire department and also balances the total cost of the project.

Um, that being said, there is still, depending on where we fall in the price range for construction, uh, somewhere around 1.5 million, hopefully 1.3 million.

That was the lower end of the shortfall.

Um, that hopefully some of this will be able to address, but that does still leave a gap that we will need to identify based on the timeline of the projects.

Um we can tap into some of the monies for fire station three if needed, and then we'll have to look for alternate funding, whether that be we have a potential for two thirds bonds next year.

Um, so we could look at that filling the gap.

Um, we can see if uh we are likely to have excess fund balance at the end of this year based on information I shared with you all related to the unanticipated property tax revenues.

Um so we are likely to see some additional fund balance.

I don't know that amount right now.

We obviously still have three months left to finish the year, but um, so there's a possibility of using fund balance if that comes to be available and we'll know in October.

Um so uh we will do our best to try and identify funding to meet those gaps because that is a priority project.

Yeah, thank you.

Yeah, my other question was about the when do we get to borrow again?

So thank you for that one.

Councilmember Nollard.

Yeah, thank you, Mayor.

Um, how much contingency was built into the fire department construction process projection?

Uh I'd have to get back with exact numbers on that project.

What I can share at this time is that uh construction costs came in much higher than we anticipated.

Okay.

Um I know on the transit committee they they typically build very large contingencies in, so I'd be curious to compare what we did on this project and how large the overrun was.

I think that would be really helpful because it's certainly a very unpleasant surprise.

Um other questions I'll run through.

Can I run through a few questions in Royal Mayor?

Um I saw in the responses to council questions, uh, if I read them correctly, an allusion to the fact that our normal procurement policy was not followed for the MOU for the green tract.

That was very concerning to me.

Could you explain what that means?

Yes.

Um, so we have an MOU in place or had one that expired June 30, uh, 2025.

We had an MOU in place with the county that directed the cost share between the partners for the green tract and spelled out the interests of like what kind of next steps were gonna be.

But Orange County is the one who procured for the work that we uh talked about, uh, the development finance initiative and the other related work.

Um and we were not made aware that that was moving ahead, and so we were not able to document that through our normal procurement, which is when we identify make sure funds are identified, and and so that part of the process did not happen.

Um, I know that the manager has had conversation with the county and said that we cannot have that happen again.

We need to be made aware before you move forward with any work so that we are a partner in this.

Um, but that is how we find ourselves after the fact trying to identify funding because that is not our normal process and not a position we like to find ourselves in.

Thank you.

That's that's reassuring.

Um, last question.

Um the the parking revenue is has been a bugbear for me, as you know, and I'm just curious.

Uh it it has seemed intuitive to me for a while that we could without conducting a multi-month study, you know, match the street parking hours to the deck parking hours, change revenue rates.

That does not appear to be part of this recommendation.

Um, could you explain why it's more complicated than I think it is.

Oh, parking.

Um parking has been um a challenge on and on many fronts, um, and we're trying to make the right choices, recognizing that conditions that we thought would be in place when we built the deck have changed significantly.

Um our parking team is working hard to evaluate what the best options are for helping to ensure that we have a sustainable plan in place for the parking fund and long-term revenue generation and debt repayment.

Um, there are things we can do now.

I think the interest was to have a firm come in and look at the overarching um parking structure and help make recommendations that we could point to as we make some changes.

I will say that many changes have already been made related to releasing some of the lease commitments that we have that had expired that were not generating monies for the parking fund.

So things have been done to try and help the parking fund, but there's a lot of work that still needs to happen.

So I think um PD and parking are working on implementing some of the recommendations tied to looking at the structure.

They just want to have the study to help solidify what the market will allow us to do, if that makes sense.

Thank you.

Councilmember Miller Fushi, did I see your hand?

Um followed by Councilmember Sharp?

Did I see you?

Thank you, Mayor.

Wanted to drill down a little bit more on Theo's question in regards to the green track.

Um can you remind us whether or not we are running lead on the green track?

I thought we were that was kind of like our wheelhouse has have things changed.

Um if not, like how is that work being done?

I don't know that that uh is beyond my expertise.

I'm looking, is anybody else in the um so when I got here, my understanding of this was we were partners, but that the county was the lead agency on some of the technical work.

So that's why I understood the the the DFI consulting contract was paid by them, and then we were sent a bill.

So we we um certainly lean into this project because it's right on our on our border, and uh you know, are part of our community, uh, but uh as I understand it, the county is still is the lead entity on uh the consulting contract work as it stands.

I I remember in the uh and I don't know, you'll have to correct me if I'm wrong, but I remember in the last MMC meeting or whatever it was called where we um where we kind of disbanded the the group of mayors and chairs who were discussing this work.

My understanding was that the town was kind of lead on planning um and being the kind of experts around the the planning work and that the county was more like the fiscal agent or the one that was dealing with contracts with other agencies.

Does that sound correct?

That was a while ago, so I don't promise.

I think Lauren said, Yeah, not inconsistent with what how I feel like we've been operating our so the internal work, our planners are definitely working on it, but we're not getting bills from them.

Uh we just give them paychecks.

Uh but but so they're working actively, but the outside consulting piece the county was doing.

That's so that's what it's like.

I I would just like to have a very, very clear understanding of what that is and have it in writing just so we can reference back to it and all of these things so that the kind of procurement um that took place, we can council member.

You're you're right.

I mean, we need that, and the uh as I understand the MOU is expired.

We want to honor the spirit of it, and we I think we need to renew it and just put in some conditions of advanced coordinated approval of future expenses.

That would be great.

Thank you so much to the county.

My next question is regarding the downtown um allocation priorities.

Could you remind me?

I have a fill-in, like I think $30,000 was put forward to thrones for the bathrooms for downtown.

Do you any of you all recall that?

I think it was there was money put, but they couldn't get the other municipalities around us to um no to go in on the on the general concept, and they needed others because they have a staff member who has to like be assigned to an area.

And so it doesn't make sense for the company to do it if there aren't enough municipalities involved, and that didn't happen.

So it was it was that it was we had made it available should that work worked out, but it did not work out.

Okay.

Having said that, we we do have the the new parking deck bathrooms are publicly available.

We'll try to do some more signage uh and that sort of thing, and we're actively thinking about what similar type arrangement might be available on the west side of of Franklin Street.

Yeah, because I'm really interested in like some of those monies to be allocated.

Um I just don't know what the in addition, because there was some vague language as to the needs of downtown and just elevating that was one of the identified needs for the bathrooms for the downtown.

And so just wanted to keep that um up front.

Yes.

Um I think my next question is for the next item.

Thank you so much.

Okay, thank you.

Um council member sharp followed by Mayor Pro Temberry.

Um, so I think potentially you covered my green tract um question in your answer to Councilmember Miller Fushi.

But did was the did the lapsed MOU not include um did it not include requirements for the county to get you know a sign off from the different paying entities for work that was going to be done?

Or and or did that procedure not happen because the MOU had lapsed?

And or were they in breach of the MOU because it hadn't lapsed and it did include that language?

I I think the MOU was vague in terms of setting out the responsibilities for notification and agreement.

So I think that's something that we now are aware of, very clearly aware of, and we'll make sure that that is very discreetly represented in a revised version.

Okay, so we are currently in the process of revising and re-establishing an MOU with all of the various parties that would give us prior sign off on expenditures.

I have made that request to the county manager.

Okay.

Can you please keep us posted?

Yeah.

Absolutely.

And the council would necessarily have to approve if it were in the form of an interlocal agreement.

So my next question is about the sort of both about parking and the fire stations.

Um these two feel a little bit tied to me in that we seem to have a trend of underestimating construction costs.

And I know that when the parking garage we kept having to approve a higher and higher budget allocations to get that parking garage finished, one of the things that the council had requested a number of times was an independent audit of that process.

Um and because we now seem to be in a similar position with this fire station project.

I'm keenly interested to know if that audit is happening.

Um we clearly need to learn some lessons about or maybe not, you know, that's I don't mean to be flip about it, but um you know they could just be each distinct projects that have different factors contributing to that.

But given that this is something we are continuing to see over and over again.

I think that we need to take a look at how we are budgeting for construction costs, and I am again very interested to know if we are examining what went down with the parking garage so we can avoid it in future.

Uh my understanding is that we did have a consultant look at the parking deck and maybe the SD's drive project.

I I'm not 100% sure we can get back to you and confirm that information to look at the project and the expenditures, and um there was nothing that came back that said that anything was done improperly.

I think there were a variety of factors that went into play, many of which that were outside of our control, uh the pilings with the deck uh because of that.

We had some significant construction cost escalation, uh, the delay in opening, the pandemic and the change in the parking environment, the fact that we still own the wallace deck when that was not supposed to be the case.

So um it's that one is I think a little bit unique and unfortunate.

Um but uh we do have a construction manager who does review um cost estimates.

I think we have just exceed uh in the last couple of years some real significant escalation that we need to figure out how to address because yes, it is a concern and a problem.

Yeah, I think that would be my interest, just not necessarily like laying blame for past projects, but just make sure that in the future we don't we don't continue to have to do this.

Like I don't know what I don't know what the difference is between what we're doing or maybe what you know councilmember Nollert was saying other places just budget for much bigger overruns, and maybe that's what we need to start doing.

But yeah, this is it's hard to get having these.

I understand that.

I'll just add an additional comment that I've been having conversations with our leadership team about our construction management capacity.

Um we do have a single staff member who was brought on to the organization in the not too distant past to help us with capital project management.

Um other than that person, we've often relied on department directors or uh other leadership in departments to serve in a project management role, and while that um can give them good experience, and some who've been around a while uh then carry that experience forward.

Um we don't do often a lot of projects in some departments.

Public works does projects, but you know, fire stations don't happen every day.

Uh and so my observation would be that uh we really need to think about building our capacity for construction project management beginning to end and partner that capacity with the department that is receiving that asset because the we we don't want to have to learn the same lesson about constructibility, about level of contingency, about soils, about all you know, over and over again.

And so we've you typically find that you can save money on a project if you do um more due diligence on the front end.

Um and so I'm not uh you know, sort of trying to lay blame or anything, I'm just talking generally about we're a smaller jurisdiction, so having a um a deep bench of uh construction management experts is not as typical as it would be in a larger jurisdiction that always has bigger capital projects ongoing.

Uh when I was next door, we had a an unsuccessful capital projects office when I got there and had to spend a considerable amount of time and effort to staff that to a different level for an upcoming level of expenditures.

And I think it paid off.

But um, you know, we're gonna be looking at that as we look at our future projects.

We're gonna be looking at that so we can try to deliver on the expectation that our our uh our our planning aligns well with council's goals, that our estimating is tighter and and that we make good decisions.

So I I'm I'm aware of the interest, I have the same interest, and we'll keep working on that.

Great, thank you.

Um Mayor Pro Tem Ferry.

Thank you so much.

Okay, um, really appreciate Councilmember.

I'll get a close up because I was talking about you.

Really appreciate council member uh Miller for she lifting up our interest in bathrooms, and so I am curious about the bathrooms.

Are they currently 24 hours at the East Rosemary deck?

I'm not sure.

So no.

David knows he's he works right there.

They are open to the public a lot of the but I guess they get locked at night.

Right.

And so that was that was a concern that we had.

That was a desire that we had, and so I would like to know how we are moving towards that because we're not there yet.

And so there are those of us who are not fortunate enough to have shelter.

And um, and we have many people who complain that these people are relieving themselves when they cannot they have no place to go.

Um so thank you very much for that.

The second thing that I want to address is the street maintenance.

I appreciate that we need to get a vehicle, which is we had to take offline.

Is it six?

Yes.

Because the so can you rather than say that it's best, you know, we see that other municipalities are using it.

Help us and the public understand how we went from six.

I know it, but I think it helps if we're to go on public record to we are now bringing one back.

And how would that be determined?

Where we're going to use that one, how is it complementing what's been happening since we took all six offline because they were hobbling?

And it was so if you could.

I'm gonna defer to the manager because I know he has been talking to our public works staff about this today.

Thank you.

Uh so uh council member uh Mayor Pratem correct the six were way past the end of their useful life and taken out of service.

Um the uh hope was that uh the residual leaves in the streets would be removed by our street sweeping equipment.

Uh unfortunately it's not uh efficient when the leaves get wet or you know beyond a certain level.

Uh so the appropriate remedy is to uh coordinate the use of a leaf vacuum truck with the street sweeper and proceed before the street sweeper to get up the big stuff, and that will help the sweeper be efficient.

So it's basically a working in tandem.

Um that's the plan, and we we are committed to keeping the streets clean and keeping uh leaves out of the storm sewers.

Um that's the approach that staff's recommending and that uh some other jurisdictions use.

We did have a fuller discussion about the whole program, the changes, what happened, and we're planning to bring that back to you.

I think you may have gotten some idea of it in some of the supplemental materials.

We'll give you a fuller report anecdotally a significant amount of our uh residents uh did make the change pretty successfully because the volume was way down without doing any of the vacuum work.

Uh we only had a slight increase in what was collected curb side.

So essentially everybody figured out, or a big majority of people figured out what to do with with the many options they could have had, either leave the leaves, which is our recommendation, or you know, mulch them in your in your yard, hire a contractor to to do it, or put them at the curb.

And so we want to uh optimize those options uh and we have some information about you know how that review went, and we'll share that out with you.

That's great.

Thank you so much.

I do want to make sure that we hear at that time uh how it will be determined where we go with that one vehicle.

I think that will be important for us and the public to know so that we manage our expectations, right?

So that we don't think it's coming to my neighborhood and it may not be.

So that's my request for that.

And then the third thing, the fire station.

I'm looking at our economic development director, David Putnam, and he said something that has stuck with me back in January at our retreat, and he talked about functional design, right?

So as we look at those dozen or so options of what uh of the designs, I want to make sure that we are not compromising too much for to meet that budget.

If we need to, if you need to come back to us and say we cannot do two, um, we need to do one because we need to do it well.

I would like to hear that.

I would like for you to be as straightforward with us as possible.

I went to visit all five stations, right?

When I first joined, and I saw our newest station, station two, and I also saw one that was I think um just a little bit older than it, station five.

Yes.

And both of those had different designs when the councils approved them than what was built.

And there were some things that would have been great if they had been kept in there.

So functional design will be extremely important for me to see so that we're not just trying to meet budget, we are trying to meet the need for today and 30 years from today.

Yes, okay.

Thank you very much.

Thank you.

Oh, I'm so sorry, that was a comment.

I apologize.

Okay.

Councilmember McMahon.

Thank you.

Um for all the work and answering all of our questions in writing.

Um, I'd like to ask a few questions that are kind of hypothetical or getting at really the the weighing of the choices we're making, and I think I might know the answer to some of these, but just to just to hear it for me, but also for anyone listening, um, thinking about the things that we're not choosing to fund with this money and and talking about why not.

Or uh I'll start with I've got I've got like five of them, I think.

Um I'll start with um I think at the the first time we heard this, it might have been Councilmember Miller for Shea who talked about public housing maintenance.

We still have some issues with that.

Um, what is the thinking on not using a portion of this for uh public housing?

Uh best practice is for an enterprise funds expense revenues to cover an enterprise funds expenditures.

That does not mean we cannot use alternate funding because as long as it is legally something that we're able to do, we can use the general fund to fund any of that.

But we always try to look at the enterprise funds revenue generation first, specifically for public housing outside of the operating grant that we receive.

So that is the next place that we would look.

Um and so we do have some funds related to that allocation.

So and public housing is also sitting on a pretty comfortable fund balance, about three million-ish.

So I think those are the sources we would look at first.

And if those were not available resources, then we could consider that allocation for a future need.

The summers coming up, people are worried about um storms.

Uh what is the reasoning behind not selecting uh appropriate scale stormwater project with this money?

Similar response, another one of our enterprise funds, a little bit different than the um revenue generation that our public housing has, which is tenant revenue and um HUD grant uh revenue is the stormwater fee, and that is what pays for the operations and capital related expenditures for the stormwater fund.

Um so we would look at the fee first if additional needs were um something of council's interest.

Uh stormwater as well has a pretty sizable fund balance, somewhere around two to three million dollars.

So we would look for that if we're talking about one-time things that of course any time we look at fund balance that's not recurring, that's for one-time needs.

Um and then again, uh the general fund can always cover those areas, but it is uh in our minds a last source of funding just because of the significant other needs that the general fund has to cover.

Okay.

My last one, I think.

Um greenway and sidewalk improvements is something that we often fall short on.

Um, like I was down there near the cookout doing uh cleanup for Creek Week and the fence there, the sidewalk is still cut off.

Um we are falling behind on just constructing greenway connectors, small portions that might be applicable with this amount of money.

Why um why not a portion of the money going to PED or uh bike infrastructure?

Um I mean we have an annual greenway allocation um to help support greenway needs.

It is not equivalent to the backlog of needs that we have.

I mean, I think ideally our interest was to be able to do small project type things with that annual funding or to meet um our grant match for grant awards that we receive.

Um so that's like our first preferred means of funding those types of projects.

Specifically related to why it was not included here is because we felt that these were more um urgent timely needs to fill some gaps and some and so this is what we've recommended for this year, but that is something we could consider um if we find ourselves with excess fund balance for next year.

Great.

Um can I just add to that briefly that um I I just got a recommended list of sort of quick hits small projects for greenways and sidewalks filling the gaps.

I just got that, and I'm looking forward to bringing some action on that um, you know, in the not too distant future.

I'm just trying to figure out where where does that land?

Does it land in a another excess fund balance equation or does it land in the budget or whatever?

But Jules, you'll you'll be seeing that sometime pretty you know, pretty soon.

We we we recognize the need and urgency, and we'd love to send some signals out to the public that we're we're we're really beginning uh not beginning, but we're we're gonna attack some of these smaller projects in the in the in the in the future that we can see.

So finally, the you know, stormwater and public housing, there these are enterprise funds too.

Parking is also an enterprise fund, right?

So we are choosing to put general fund money into that one particular enterprise fund and not the others.

Could you explain why we're doing that?

Uh it is ultimately tied to the debt service.

Um it is not because we are covering operating costs under the parking fund.

We have debt obligation that we committed to meet um and impacts uh our triple A credit rating and our debt service ratios, and until we can prove that the parking fund is self-sustainable, which one day we will get there, hopefully.

Um that is our goal.

Um, you know, we we have to meet that um we have to meet those payments.

So it this is really about the debt service.

That is what we're covering, uh, which we can do with the debt fund.

Um it's just that we had built out a five-year plan for projects that are also critical.

All the needs are critical.

Um, so it is really a matter of which funding source do we want to look at.

Thank you.

One last quick question.

The all that is packaged together in the parking thing, the study and the debt service.

Can you I'm assuming it's a small amount of money, but could you unpack how much is for the study?

Yeah, the study is 40,000.

50,000.

All right.

So the remaining amount goes towards this debt service, which we're obligated to pay.

Yes.

And just so I hear you correctly, in the other areas, we feel like we have enough money to meet short-term.

There's some cushion, but in the parking thing, we're just obligated because of the debt service.

Yes, and I will clarify that the 40,000 is built into next year's parking fund budget.

They are looking to see if they can get some of that started early.

So this amount right here is 100% would go to the debt service.

Okay.

Thank you.

Yes.

Councilmember Rivers, followed by Councilmember Nollert.

Um, thanks.

Uh when it first came in, I thought we had all this free money to play with, but clearly we don't.

Um do we know when we will get the FEMA money back?

And then or is that just a black hole?

Um, we are we have received a few small reimbursements.

So I think they are working very hard to turn this around.

And I will say having um IEM help with this has been a real game changer um in terms of helping make sure because I mean HUD has very specific rules.

FEMA is even more than HUD.

Um, so uh there's just a lot.

So we've received a few small payments for a few smaller projects that we have done, but it's gonna take a while because the larger projects are just kind of starting to come underway.

So as that money comes in, we can bring that back before council to look at appropriating for the projects where we're directly reimbursing, we will take care of those.

But as any additional monies come in, we can talk about how we would allocate for other purposes if there's an interest to move that forward ahead of end of year.

Okay.

Councilmember Nollart?

So I was just reviewing a couple files.

I know in 2018 we ran the Walker study and they recommended matching street and deck parking and charging until 10 p.m.

If our new study also recommends that, will we do it this time?

That does not fall under my purview.

Um fair enough.

I'm not the subject matter expert on that, although it is everything is ultimately finance or budget related.

I am sorry, Ted, gonna come back to you that's help.

I I mean could you reframe that for me and just re-restate.

I I want I think you know, all the way the parking fund works, it's a system.

And I want to make sure we make good systemic choices.

So that's why I want to do the study.

And I think we would have full uh flexibility to implement some none or all of it.

Um understood.

I'm I'm channeling the spirit of our our um dearly departed from this council, but not this Earth colleague, Mr.

Searing, who who uh often is thinking about consulting costs, and in this case, part of what I'm thinking about is that we have received a recommendation previously that that would have impacted the revenue we were getting from the study.

It's not clear why it was never implemented given that it it is in line with some fairly intuitive practices, and so um I will withdraw the question in the interest of moving along with the business of the evening.

Councilmember Miller Fushi.

Thank you.

Umber McMahon, um the you elevated some questions that I had for the our next item, but I feel like maybe this is the appropriate place to ask them since I have you before me.

Um I'm really really like concerned, like about the uncertainty of federal housing funding and the fact that um with this um financial instability.

Right now, if I'm not mistaken, our current funding sources for public housing doesn't include any general funding?

It does not.

And that's a real concern for me.

And so I guess my question is looking back at old materials.

What are the revenue sources?

Like I know rental is one of them.

The HUD allocation itself.

And then there's some miscellaneous other things, but other than that, we're really, really relying on HUD.

And so if the rug is pulled from underneath us, um where does that leave us?

And so what does that look like in terms of like like our and annual capital allocations, enterprise funds, the way that we're treating other projects?

Um I really am interested in how we are thinking about our public owned housing and being able to make sure that it's um sustained.

Yes.

Uh I think we sort of have two areas there.

One is the operations of the public housing fund, and that is really what is um currently funded with um our HUD allocation 1.2 ish million a year, and with the rental income, which is very similar.

Um, I can get exact numbers and return that information.

You had like 1.37 and rentals is like 1.23, something around that.

Yes.

So some yes, that sounds about right.

I mean, the total budget is around um three million ish.

Um so, and then the very small amounts of money, a little bit of interest, uh, some miscellaneous type things.

Um so that's the one allocation, then the other is related to capital needs.

We have the capital grant, which is also varies per year.

It's close to 1.1.2 million dollars.

Um and I think as we considered some of the uh affordable housing bonds, we did talk about would some of those funds be used to help with some potential public housing capital related needs over and above the capital allocation.

If we were to lose our operating grants, then it would fall upon another funding source to pick that up, which would likely be the general fund, and we would have to figure that out in our annual operating budget.

Uh we do have some fund balance that's for one time needs to help bridge the gap for a year if we need, but that is not a recurring revenue source.

Um, and of course, I know in last year's budget when we knew that there was the possibility of um HUD funding going away, we talked about it and said that we were ready to uh change course if needed to address that, and we would continue to take that stance that if that were to happen, we would immediately begin discussing how would we cover those gaps.

Okay, thank you.

Did I see somebody else again?

Okay.

Um I think beyond just the bathrooms, could you share the other downtown priority needs that we're talking about?

Yes, and I think there is some flexibility with those dollars.

Uh again, we are trying to be responsive to monies that had previously been um distributed to the visitors bureau and trying to recognize that those dollars could be better utilized if they were managed by town staff.

Um some interests that have already been um discussed is uh a nod to and a recognition of something related to the bathrooms.

So we have that, and we'll come back to council when we have some additional information.

Um the police uh substation downtown, the lease for that space, um, some lighting downtown, um, but a big focus is going to be on marketing and wayfinding to try and help address um some needs we have with parking and um other interests that have been um brought up by the downtown businesses.

Um we can come back to council with a discrete list of what that looks like um so that council has a good understanding of where those funds are going to be directed.

And did we not already allocate money for wayfinding and signage at some point?

I I mean I think that parking has certainly done that related to the new deck.

Um I think some level of signage was done.

Um but I think that it's been identified that there is a need for more.

Okay.

Um sorry, go ahead.

I mean, I think sort of my understanding is we we have a we have a plan, but we haven't been able to fully execute the the plan.

So pieces of the plan may have been put up in coordination with that plan, like the P for parking fit within the plan, and some of those are put up.

It's got the same you know, design elements.

Uh the we've got some intersection uh signals that we're working on, those design elements are are being considered as as that goes, that's being funded separately.

So this would be to kind of keep moving the streetscape wayfinding program forward that wasn't ever fully funded.

That's that's my walking around knowledge of it.

If that and I'm getting some nods.

Okay, thank you.

Um in terms of parking management, I guess I'm if you could help me understand the I thought back when we were hiring some uh individual to manage parking, and please don't take this as criticism of that person or anybody.

I'm I'm just trying to understand what we are doing or not doing and and maybe where a shift came.

But my understanding was we were hiring somebody to manage parking to understand the inventory to do that analysis of what um what recommendations should be taken that have already been studied and how we should um how we should change policies potentially in order to make parking sustainable.

Um then all I know is that person was moved out of economic development and and now we're being asked to fund a parking study, which is not a lot of I mean, 40,000 is not a lot of money.

Um, but I guess I'm just confused on I thought we were going in a direction of managing parking actively and not just kind of passively hoping that it all worked out, but now it seems like something has shifted, and I'm just wondering what that shift has been, or if I'm not remembering correctly where we were going or what we were doing.

Sorry.

That that's too much history for me to answer frankly.

So I mean, we'll just have to either get back to you unless.

Yeah, I mean, uh I would certainly uh Chief Leah who you know that's one of her functional areas.

I wouldn't want to speak for her without some consultation.

Okay.

Um I think that is my questions for the moment.

Um are there members of the public?

One more question from uh Mayor Pro Temberry.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Mayor.

Um you just shared about the lease for the substation that it's coming out of this.

How are we paying for outfitting the space?

Uh my understanding is that that is coming from the police department's operating budget.

I have not heard of a request for additional funding.

So I'm guessing do they know that they can request more?

Or are we telling them and I want to be forthright here because I um want to make sure that we're not putting we're not stretching our departments to take on a new endeavor, but we're not gonna fund them, and that they're gonna have to take it from something else, right?

So I understand that the locks, some were taken from the old station over there, but it doesn't it doesn't strike me as good business to provide the lease, but not the furnishings or the other things that are necessary there, and that they're supposed to pull it from.

So help me understand how we're doing this.

Yeah, again, I I think unless Amy has more direct information.

I think your chief um works hard to try to work within her budget allocations, and we haven't had any conversations with her that sound like hey, you can only do this if you you know rob Peter to pay Paul type approach.

It's it's it's a fairly um minimalist environment there, it's not a big footprint.

Uh whether she's gotten the um uh property owner to handle some of the upfit and the fairly minimal lease or not, I I don't have an answer to that, or she just thinks, hey, I've got some uh surplus furniture from you know from my inventory because I just moved and that's good enough and let's just get rolling.

Right.

It wouldn't surprise me, but I would want her to answer that.

Right.

So, manager, I will say that I hope they were not bringing furniture from that building into there, right?

I hope that whatever was there is left behind, which is why we went with new furniture in the new space.

Um can we wait for comments?

Yep, I sure can.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um are there members of the public wishing to speak?

That's a question for you, ma'am.

Yes, there are none the last time I met two minutes ago.

Okay.

Um council uh comments, madam.

I really appreciate everybody's grace tonight.

Thank you.

Um the substation, I want to make sure, and I would love to hear from the from the chief, but it's I want to make sure that when we ask mid-year for something to happen.

So this wasn't in this department's budget, that we think about all of the factors that are going in.

Um I don't know about the chief, not everybody's as comfortable with asking as I am.

I don't mind asking, but not everybody is there, right?

So I want to make sure that we are signaling to our department heads that if we put an extra, if we right, or if you put an extra ask on them that they understand that they can be um supported, the resources are there.

So that's for the substation.

I will go back um to the just to put it in this area, the fire station, um, functional design.

I would like to see what we are proposing, and is that um I want to know what what trade-offs we're making for that cost for the for that, and I will say that right now we all are experiencing volatility with costs.

If you've been to the to the pump, you've seen it.

I was down close to Chatham and uh or I was in Chatham going to Briar Chapel a couple of days ago, and they were linking nine dollars and something.

I think it was wrong, but um just huge.

And so the that translation into other costs for construction, I can appreciate that that we couldn't have forecasted that.

So I can appreciate that.

Um I would like to see that list of downtown priorities because some of those were a surprise to me.

What are we what are we giving the green light on?

And then the street maintenance.

If you could help um the community and us understand what we can expect with that one truck that it will not replace all six, and where will it?

Um, and also I'm looking forward to the report um that the manager mentioned about the what has happened, the outcomes with the leave the leaves.

Thank you.

Councilmember McCullough.

I just want to say that I really hope I think I saw it somewhere, but then I'm not sure anymore that I saw it somewhere that the downtown work is going to include the lot two activation because I believe that that will help with our parking, um, the enthusiasm for parking.

If we can if we can have programming that will link lot two events and the front porch events, I think that can help us to generate more income there.

Councilmember Sharp.

Um so I know that like we've had some surprised reactions about some of these allocation requests.

Um I'd like to say that I I don't doubt at all that you all have weighed the options and found the places that you've feel the most urgently need and most effectively can make the most effective use of this money.

But I I do think that the process of bringing those to us has um brought to light some places that we are sort of in the dark about, or maybe everybody was in the dark about the way things were happening, or you know, could be done better.

Um and potentially learn from the past and moving forward, et cetera.

And I appreciate so so in tandem with that comment, I would also say that I appreciate um the ways that this is also bringing to light our responsiveness to things we've learned from the past and to um resident response to things like changing the leaf collection.

Like I really see you all putting money towards like we're gonna try this and hope to help it keep property tax down in this one way, and we got various responses back, and you all are right.

All right, let's spend some money to make this a little less onerous in the ways that we have heard that it's not working.

So I really appreciate um the responsiveness, and I hope that everyone can see that as responsiveness rather than I think sometimes we get nervous about like, oh, but you said you were doing this one thing and now you're doing this other thing, and why aren't you doing what you said you were doing, and why don't you believe that anymore?

And isn't that the right thing?

Or is like, well, we're learning as we go, which I think is natural, and the willingness to do that, I think is um I I very much appreciate seeing it that revealed in this process.

And I hope that um the willingness to do that will extend towards the places that this has illuminated where we probably need to do better.

Councilmember Miller Fishi, followed by Councilmember Rivers.

I want to thank staff for um bringing these recommendations before us.

Um one thing that sticks out to me um through these conversations from showday last year.

Thank you.

Council member McCullough.

I will know that there is the wrong person.

I think the wrong um you know, we have interests of doing doing stuff, but um we we're really in some real difficult times financially.

I mean, I don't think the state has yet to pass the budget.

No.

Um we're dealing with a lot at the federal level.

And um the fact that we're able to um move forward with the allocations and lean into some of our priorities, um, and you all continuing to be able to identify those.

Um, I hope our community is able to see that.

So thank you.

That's my comment.

Councilmember Rivers.

Yeah, I just want to follow up on council council person sharp's comments specifically about the leaf.

I think we should do a lot about that.

Like when the report comes out, that should be a bit communication push.

Um with the decision we're making tonight, or if we whatever the suggestions we should do, like a bit communication push because I think people could just kind of felt surprised.

They heard they felt like they only heard about the leaf policy when the leaves were falling off the trees.

So, like if we can try to like get ahead of it.

And you know, people may still ignore, but we can show that like we did try to let you know about this in advance.

So I think I I almost think that should be like from the web page or something.

That should be like major news for Chapel Hill, what we're doing around leaves.

Other comments?

Councilmember McMahon, you look poised.

I will comment.

I think the leaf thing, again, I like your comments.

I think one of the things that's come through the through the conversation in the public is and I think we can do a better job of it, is really parsing out how we're assisting or not assisting residents with their leaves, but also like how are we managing the leaves that we have in the street as our responsibility to keep the streets clean.

Um so I think seeing an investment in street cleaning as a part of our function.

Um this good FEMA, getting the FEMA money in there, of course, is excellent.

Um, my comment would be uh this felt very work session-y to me.

Like I feel like this is a conversation we really could have had in a work session.

We got a lot of information last minute, a couple hours ago, even um a lot of it comes down to me of this process of making choices.

And um, I know you have a lot of work to do to put these things together and a lot of work to do to answer our questions.

At the same time, you're you're going through a process of making choices on what gets presented to us.

I think it's my role or our role to be involved in that making choices process, and I think the community wants us to be involved in that making choices.

So I'm just thinking forward to our budget conversation on how are we seeing the stuff we're not doing, like the the items I mentioned, just even creating a picture of what those investments could be and reasons why they're not the right choice to make at this time really help me feel comfortable with the decision I'm making, and I think the community um sees value in knowing that the reasons we're making the choices we're making um come from a place of options and these trade-offs that we talk about.

So I I just hope um as we go forward we can have more opportunity to to see the choices up front.

Like I said, uh a work session is a place we we had this up in a work session.

This is a conversation I would have loved to have had in that environment before a vote tonight.

And the parking as a new council member, the parking lot thing is a horrible thing to inherit.

Um this idea of construction costs that we talk about.

Um again, building on the budget conversation in your presentation from last time in this process is really thinking transformative because like what um council member Paris Miller for she said about our federal and state level, our school systems going through this right now.

Um we're in good shape because of a lot of the work you do.

Um, but uh that confidence on how long is our good shape gonna last.

And I feel like it's an opportunity to not just plug holes and do what we're doing, but to be transformative.

And a key part of that is this whole thing that I hear us coming back to and engage us in the decision making, engage us in why we're making these choices, and it can only improve the process um from where I'm sitting.

So a thank you and then just a request to front load all of this back and forth as much as possible early in the process so we can hit it at a work session and have time to really have these conversations in that environment and really pull us into creating that picture of what we're not doing and m letting us know why.

This idea of the parking fund being uh obligated and that we would have to pull money from other debt funds.

I didn't really grasp that in the beginning, and that would have been helpful.

Um there's a few other examples there, but I'll I'll just be quiet and just say uh the partnership here really is about this process of making choices, and I think tonight and through our council questions, we've tried to open that up, and the more we can open it up, the better outcome we're gonna have.

Thank you.

Um not seeing other comments.

Um I will try to be brief with mine.

Um I don't for me as a voting member, I don't feel like I have the information or I feel like I got it last minute, and that is just too challenging for me to manage in a decision making process.

Um I also don't doubt that you have done excellent behind the scenes work and that there's reasons, but um when I can't see those and weigh those, um I have no idea how the council will vote tonight, but as as one, I because I don't know what downtown is about, because I haven't been able to look at the materials in advance and really understand the choices that we should be able to make.

Um I I prefer not to vote tonight and to actually get the full information.

Council has also asked for information in the past.

Um and Amy, I know this is not this is not directed to you.

This is just about I think the way we um the way we flow information and make decisions.

And I as a policy professional, I have ideas that I will share.

Um I've done that many times in the past, but I'm hoping we can just get to a um, and this is not particularly fascinating to the public to hear about our internal policy, you know, policy making structures, but I just find this very challenging and I feel like I don't get the information and I don't hear the information being front-loaded that council asks for.

So I'm gonna continue to advocate for the board as a whole and for myself as someone who who I take my job seriously.

I try to be um fair and deliberative and also make sure the public understands what we're doing and why, and I just don't feel like I'm being given that opportunity right now.

So um so with that, um can I can I make another comment?

Can I can I make another comment?

Of course.

Um I'm I'm having a I'm having a little bit of a uh of a query in my own head here as we go on with this discussion because I feel like we're finding ourselves in a place where we often find ourselves, which is we want more detail, but we also are do not want to and are not supposed to micromanage.

And I'm not sure where that line is.

Um the the one thing I worry about if we decide to not vote on this tonight is what are the implications for things like the money going to the green tract and um I forget what the other one was that was kind of um oh the debt the debt service for the parking.

Um we won't it it won't come back to us for a vote for another what two or three weeks.

What is the implication of that delay if we do not vote on this tonight?

Yeah, just direct response.

The timeline is not um that it's not one week, two week critical.

All these things can be dealt with, you know, pretty if we knew it was just deferring to it to the next meeting or something like that.

That that could all work if it just drags on, then we start to run into year-end issues and when the debt services pay, and then we'll have to repay things back to different funds and all that sort of stuff.

Amy, do you have another level of detail you'd like to share?

I mean, I think that's right.

I I think our cutoff or our need for a decision is June 30, because we need to have these things resolved before the end of the fiscal year.

Um, and I will only add that um, you know, as we continue in budget discussions, it gets just a little bit more um complex as topics start to interrelate.

We're already so late in the season because our audit was so late, and so you know, we'd usually be having this conversation October, November, and so it's just a little bit of a late year.

Thank you for that.

And just to be very clear, I share your interest in not micromanaging a hundred percent.

That's why I want information that's clear and at a policy level so that we don't get into the weeds.

I think the times that I see us get in the weeds is when we don't have information and we start worrying about the little things as opposed to being able to move through policy.

So that is my interest, not to my I am very clear on what our role is, and it is not day-to-day operations or um or about managing staff in any way.

I I want to be able to make good decisions, and I want them to be at a policy level, and I think I'm pretty qualified to do that.

Um, but uh council, uh do I have a motion?

I move to enact 01.

Move by council member sharp, seconded by council member Miller Fushi.

All those in favor, please say aye.

We couldn't hear it very well now.

Um Act 01.

Moving to enact the budget ordinance as presented to us.

Uh there's a motion all the on the floor.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Aye.

Any opposed, please say nay.

Nay.

Nay.

Uh motion passes uh six to two.

Six to two.

Okay.

Um thank you.

Thank you.

Um next step um the is item number seven, the town's public housing program, annual plan, admissions, and continued occupancy policy.

Um, Lauren Clark, our deputy town manager and interim housing director, and Andy Ant is here to walk us through.

Thank you, Mayor.

Get to the microphone.

Uh, good evening, Mayor and Council.

I am Lauren Clark, and I'm the deputy town manager and also the uh interim housing director.

And tonight I'm joined by my teammate, uh housing officer Andrew Mevin, who is here to um answer questions that may come up about the annual plan or the uh admissions and continued occupancy plan.

And uh just to explain why we're here before you tonight is that we're here because um public housing is um one of the council's responsibilities as uh the lead of our um housing authority, and um we wanted to um get for you because we wanted to present these plans to the these have plans have to be submitted to HUD by April 17th.

And in previous years, we've brought items like this to you on your consent agenda, but since we haven't talked about public housing in a while, and there are some new council members here also tonight, um, we're bringing this to you for discussion.

So our recommendation tonight is that the council approved the resolution to adopt the public housing annual plan and the continued occupancy plan.

And for some background and context, again, as a reminder, the town is one of three communities in North Carolina that operates a public housing authority.

The other two are Shelby and Concord.

And the council serves as the board of directors and the town staff implement the public housing program.

In 2024, public housing became a division of what's now the housing and community development department.

And along with affordable housing, the affordable housing division, all of the town's housing functions are now aligned within one team.

And this allows us to do a better job of achieving the council's goals of providing housing services for ranging from homelessness to market rate housing.

And as a housing authority, the town is responsible for managing a public housing portfolio.

And for us that includes 296 units and 11 in 11 neighborhoods in Chapel Hill and one in Carborough.

There are 13 full-time employees, including administration and maintenance staff.

And our public administration, our public housing administration staff is located on Caldwell Street, and our maintenance staff is located on at the town operations center on Mill House Road.

And the public housing program operates as an enterprise fund, as you heard Amy talking about earlier, and we receive approximately two and a half million dollars in operating and capital funds per year, and we also rely on about 1.3 million dollars in rent rep rent revenue that's collected from our tenants.

And currently the town's housing authority is in troubled status, and the status is determined by a combination of our management practices like vacancy rates and submitting reports on time, our financial management practices, the physical condition of our properties, and the timely expenditure of our capital fund grants.

Our biggest area for improvement in uh is the physical condition of our properties.

And we were happy that in the fall we had a successful evaluation of our properties by HUD, and we are waiting for them to update their system so that we hopefully will be in standard performing status.

Also want to add that on April 15th, we're going to return to you all with a consent item for use of our capital fund grants.

Um this addresses maybe some of the questions you had earlier this evening, Councilmember Mila Fershi and others, um, to explain how we plan to spend those funds on specific specific capital and program activities for our residents and for our units.

And one way that the council helps us to improve our rating is by completing the online lead the way training.

Many of you have done that already, and the new council members have been shared that we share that information with you all as well.

And we thank you for doing that, and that just helps us to demonstrate that as a housing authority, the council is uh has been trained on the online training system.

So talk a little bit about the annual plan.

And the plan is a is the purpose of the plan is to outline the goals of a housing authority's programs, operations, and services.

In fiscal year 27, we'll continue to make progress on meeting the following goals of our five-year plan.

We'll use capital grant and operating funds to achieve these goals.

Examples of improvements we plan to make include new flooring, cabinet replacement, plumbing improvements, and HVA system replacements.

We also remain committed to develop programs to enhance resident independence utilizing community partnerships.

We'll focus on key indicators of a successful public housing program, such as timely rent collection, annual recertification of resident eligibility, and vacancy reduction.

As mentioned, we'll come back to you in April with a plan on your um on your agenda to talk about more specifically how we plan to use these funds.

The admissions and continued occupancy plan, or the ACOP, outlines policies such as eligibility, tenant selection, admissions, preference admissions preferences, wait list procedures, rent determination, utilities, occupancy guidance, and pet ownership.

We're proposing changes to the ACOP with an effective date of July 1st to best align with best practices for property management and public housing management.

And our staff held two public meetings from uh from residents to hear their feedback about these changes to the proposed to the ACOP plan.

There's a chart on page 53 and 54 in your packet that refers to the proposed changes that we we plan we'd like to make.

And in summary, the changes would prioritize Orange County has Orange County residents, working households, unhoused community members, and would also make changes to increase income verification documentation needed, the guest policy, the pet policy, and changes to exclusionary periods for criminal activity.

So again, our staff recommendation is to that the council adopt resolution three.

And if you approve this plan tonight, we'll next submit both plans to HUD by this by the April 5th 17th deadline.

And thank you.

And Drea and I are here to answer any questions you may have.

I do just want to respond also to a question that you brought up earlier about using other funding for uh capital expenses for public housing.

And later this spring we'll be bringing items to you both on our community development block grant program as well as some other uh local funding to be able to use to support some of our public housing needs.

Whoops, council member Miller Fishi.

Thank you, Mayor.

Thank you for this report.

Um in regards to your proposed changes.

Could you please um help me understand um y'all's uh thought process around the pay stubs required for verification?

It went from two to four and three months of checking checking account and two months of savings um statements.

Um I guess my concern is just you know, any barriers that they that that could potentially propose for folks.

Um, but I really just like to understand, yeah.

Yes, I will defer that question to Drea, who's worked very closely on the uh plan together.

Good evening.

Evening.

Um, so um in preparation for our admissions and continued occupancy um policy, I was able to work with uh Nan McKay uh consultants uh and so their recommendations um were some of these were some of their recommendations that gives us a bigger um picture of their income versus just two pay stubs.

Sometimes it doesn't give us all of the information.

Um also with our annual plan, I'm was able to work with Trinity Court getting some of our applicants um housed approximately 45 families.

So seeing their process of requiring four um bank statements, I mean four pay stubs, three bank statements, savings account.

Um there's a lot of unreported income that we see on the bank statements, so we're able to capture that information.

Um again, a lot of these were um even based uh our criminal activity exclusionary periods for applicants were very stringent based on what other agencies were using.

So we reduced a lot of those.

Um we cannot do anything about the HUD required of the sex offender registry and um lifetime ban for um the production of you know um methamphetamines um so then we um reduced those to three years of criminal activity um based around drug activity, those type of things, um, and then three months ban on folks that are currently active receiving treatment.

So that following the recommendations, that's how we were able to come up with some of these changes.

I guess my question is just um maybe you don't have um I guess what I heard was you were able to with that for um pay stubs capture in the uh checking account capture unaccounted or unreported, thank you for the work, unreported um income.

So that and that factors into people's eligibility to for the housing and stuff.

Correct.

Um sorry yep, no, that's great.

Um I was very happy to see the um criminal exclusionary period.

I was very happy to see that, as well as the guest policy, those shifts.

Um but I would would also like to know like what was y'all's process in making like y'all's thoughts about those changes as well.

Um again, our ACOP had not been um revised with changing leadership and you know, retirement of leadership.

Um it was just time that we um brought in a consultant, a professional that would help us navigate based on our current maybe some of the problematic things with residents or and or applicants.

So we were able to implement those, and again, when she looked at our current ACOP, which was minimal, um those met the federal, I guess, guidelines way back when of all of those, like um all of the uh exclusionary periods.

I mean, it was down to 12 different things from ranging from lifetime to one year.

Um so now that you know families maybe um some type of criminal activity in the beginning of life, they read revamped their life, and now this uh it's a second opportunity.

Folks should not be penalized forever, um, and everybody should have the right to housing.

So we took their recommendations seriously collectively as a team with our current public housing manager at that time, and then we were able to come up with uh these with their guidance.

So it's your opinion that these recommendations are moving us closer to our goals around equity and yes, ma'am.

Yes, ma'am.

Um my next question um is in regards to our standing now with HUD.

Um I know Trinity Court and those being offline have factored in.

Is that still the case?

That is that definitely helped us for sure.

And um, what we are waiting for is for HUD to update in their computer system, um their online system, which has been challenging to update that our score there so that we will be able to find out if we're actually out of that troubled status.

So Trinity did help us.

We were able to move those units offline.

I think it was maybe last year even, and um, so that was definitely a big help because those were 40 units that were unoccupied for several years.

So that did hurt our score.

Awesome.

Thank you.

Councilmember Rivers.

Followed by Councilmember Sharp.

Um what do we have to report about our tenants to HUD?

Like what information, like I'm thinking demographic information, and like is that extensive?

I tried to look it up online and I couldn't find it.

So that's why I was asking y'all about it.

I'm not sure the context.

Um not is I'm concerned about HUD sharing that information with other agencies in the federal government.

So I'm just wondering like is this something we need to be concerned about, or is this something I shouldn't be concerned about?

Just sharing tenants demographic information.

Is that what you're asking?

Yeah, with HUD, because I'm concerned they would share it with other agencies and they may act on it.

Oh, um so I do um recall that we did receive an email basically that it is our responsibility to be reporting.

Um again, we don't have um our other housing officer, she is more senior and works uh with the residents more closely.

I am more with the applicant, so I do apologize, but um we don't feel that that is a concern right now for our um for our our current residents um because we do follow the guidelines as far as um making sure that the family is eligible for public housing assistance.

Um we have one definition now for how we can determine eligibility based on um different factors, and as that changes, we can be sure to update the council on that.

But for right now, we haven't made any changes to our eligibility requirements now.

What HUD does with that information, I I'm not sure.

And what and what we send to HUD is just like these residents eligible.

We don't we don't have to send them the whole how we got there, or do we?

No, we do have um databases saved that we go in to enter in the pertinent information just to um confirm their status, and again, if their family um is eligible based on one member, the family is eligible to receive that that federal assistance.

Unless that guidance change will continue to do that.

Okay, are there members of the public wishing to speak?

Oh, sorry, sorry, council member sharp.

Um the th the uh exclusionary period, the criminal exclusionary period being reduced from 10 years to three years.

Is that three years based?

Does that have any relation to other types of housing that are available to people transitioning out of the penal system?

Is there I'm not sure if there's a connection to that, but that's something we could look into and find out.

I would just be interested to know um where are you supposed to live for the first three years that you're out of prison, and if I know that there are other organizations that work with that population, and I'm just wondering, I I just wondered if that three years was based on like oh, you have three years of eligibility in this kind of program, or you know, etc.

We can look into that, see if there's a connection.

Okay.

Thanks.

Don't know the answer to that offhand.

I'm sorry.

I said didn't know the answer to that right now, but we can look into that and get some more information.

Sorry.

I don't believe there are members of the public wishing to speak.

Thank you, ma'am.

Um final council comments.

Do I have a motion?

connection okay I was thanks don't know the answer to that offhand closer I'm sorry I said didn't know the answer to that right now but we can look into that and get some more information sorry I don't believe there are members of the public wishing to speak thank you ma'am um any final council comments do I have a motion that we approve the public housing annual plan second R3 second motion by mayor pro temberry um seconded by council member mcullah thank you uh all those in favor please say aye aye any opposed please say nay uh motion is unanimous eight zero thank you so much i i know that this is very detailed work i do not envy you but i am very grateful thank you oh um council that um concludes the regular portion of our yes council member rivers i'm gonna be difficult um can i change my vote on our previous vote which previous vote what on the i'm forgetting the fund balance the fun balance i i've never been asked that question before uh attorney and manager the way the numbers well i know numerically it doesn't matter but he's asking on the record can his vote be changed yeah i i just don't feel great about how that went down if it's not a big deal if i can't is there a parliamentary procedure for changing a vote that's already been taken would we have to move to rehear that item yeah that'd be uh oh okay no it's not worth that it's fine thank you for taking that okay yeah we're done um thank you yeah so that concludes the regular portion of our meeting um but we do have a closed session so uh mayor pro temberi i move that we go into closed session pursuant to GS 143 318 point one one a four to discuss project periodic uh second motion by mayor pro temberry seconded by council member rivers all those in favor please say aye aye any opposed please say nay motion is unanimous and our regular meeting is adjourned