I thought it's all fun.

Are you ready for us?

Okay.

Good evening, everyone.

Welcome to Chapel Hill Town Council May 13th.

Right?

Oh, work session.

The town manager presented his recommended budget for 2026-2027 last week.

And we'll be discussing that this evening.

And immediately following our budget discussion, council will go into a closed session.

Before we begin, there's a really special announcement today.

It's somebody's birthday.

Oh, I would love that.

Oh, are you having a seat under the both?

Okay.

Ready?

Happy birthday to you.

Happy birthday to you.

Happy birthday, dear Ted.

Happy birthday.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

That was lovely.

I thought you would say no.

There is also I believe that Mary Jane has provided a birthday cake along with a shark knife in the back of the room.

So anybody who would like, hey, please help yourself.

And Ted can send you off if you'd like to go first.

So a very happy birthday, and thanks for being here with us.

I think there's no better place to be as a public servant than the budget here in the microphone.

Absolutely.

That's the right answer.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

So I want to remind our audience that the format of a work session is different than those of our business meetings.

Work sessions are an opportunity for the council to dive more deeply into specific topics.

And the topics will come back to a formal business meeting, and I believe that our public hearing on the budget is May 20th.

So we do value public input.

So there will be opportunities to speak at upcoming business meetings.

And as part of the agenda that evening on the 20th, we'll be holding a public hearing on the budget, and we encourage everyone to come speak or share your comments in advance by email.gov.

Okay.

That brings us to the budget discussion.

Before we get started, I just wanted to give council a quick heads up.

Ted and I thought it might be helpful to close the discussion with four brief questions.

It's really just a way to check in, make sure we heard each other clearly and identify anything we still need moving forward.

So we're hoping that would be the last 10 or 12 minutes at the end for that conversation.

You'll find the questions at your seat and staff will also have them up on the screen when we get there.

So does that approach work for folks?

Yes.

Alright.

Got it.

So item number one is 2026-27 budget, and our presenters are Ted Voorhees and Amy.

Thank you, Mount Mayor.

We were going to try to say that you could you had to finish by seven in order to get K.

But that might be too inefficient.

No.

Hey, no, we're heading somewhere.

It doesn't have to try to buy something.

In all seriousness, we we want to spend as much time with you as you need to get comfortable.

Your biggest decision annually is this decision, your budget decision.

And so we appreciate the focused attention from all the members as we shared information over the last several days.

We also have something at your seats that's new tonight that you don't have to make any decisions on today, but we wanted to provide you a fully branded version of your council strategic priorities.

Provide a set of reporting metrics that we might use to help guide the decision as to how responsive we are to meeting those strategic objectives.

So comment from council on either of these documents is welcome, but this hopefully will give you an idea of how we're looking to help you with the question.

You know, are we moving forward on these strategic goals?

And hopefully, some of the metrics in there help help answer that question.

We'd be reporting on them.

Behind those metrics, we'll have departmental work plans that will dig more deeply into that, and we can provide that information when it's available.

That's that's kind of a framework of how we're looking to do this to answer the question: are we meeting your priorities?

So we just share that out for review and comment as you see fit.

With that, um, I would I would uh echo that the uh engagement with the community to get new feedback.

Uh the engaged Chapel Hill site is live.

The mayor's message that went out last week contains those links.

We will also put that in town talk coming up this week.

Uh so uh hopefully we're blanketing the community, at least through socials, to try to show them where they can provide comment input to you all.

And with that, uh I'd like to walk us through this PowerPoint because what is a birthday budget work session without a good PowerPoint?

Nothing.

Uh but this is just designed to get us to the place where you can have your questions answered, asked, and have more discussions.

I think you'll see this is fairly familiar to you from your previous work.

So a reminder on the big topics this work session is meant to give you a clear picture of our financial outlook key investment scenario where we're advancing your strategic priorities.

The budget as recommended is a 3.4% increase over the current fiscal year for a total of 169.7 million, of which just about 100 million is in the general fund and the remainder is in our enterprise funds.

The big takeaway, we are not recommending a tax increase for fiscal 27, which leaves our property tax rate of 50 cents per 100 of assessed valuation.

And we took your goals, put them front and center here in our plan to work.

We're operationalizing complete communities through adopted plans and funded projects.

That gets back to that handout.

You can sort of see the metrics in my track there to see how we're meeting that uh set of goals.

Um, we're continuing to leverage innovative approaches to fund your housing goals, and so in there you know, we continue to move uh forward with leveraging our local bond resources.

Uh, our state and federal grants remain in there despite some uncertainties that remains moving forward.

Um we also uh have a very important uh public housing repositioning plan effort plan for this upcoming year again, really important piece of how we work work on our housing goals.

We're continuing to seek ways to advance your environmental goals, and so as you know, we're gonna be uh coming back to you shortly with our engagement plan for the climate action update.

We'll also reach then out to the public and come back to you with proposed updates there.

Uh we also fit into that uh framework, some of the work we're going to be doing on stormwater with respect to our flood mapping and uh intent to build a live flood model, which will also help with early warning and that sort of thing.

And then our work is guided by our five-year funding outlook that is helping us move towards your goal of physical and organizational sustainability.

And you all saw how we put specific investments into each of several categories to try to get us through a baseline fund.

So that's a lot in one slide that we want to show you how we're linking to the goals.

This is the high level revenue picture.

Property taxes are our number one source of revenue.

Sales taxes number two, and then all the rest fall in there in their respective levels.

So the extent that we do appropriate, it should be for one time needs, capital needs, and not to support ongoing operations.

And this is that five-year path to fiscal sustainability chart that shows the categories of investment.

Facilities, streets, fleet, and fire capital are the four big buckets for additional funding in to try to get to that sustainable allocation.

You see on the far left column.

Then comes the current allocation, then the shaded column is where we're adding in the proposed budget to get to higher levels, and then in the out years, you can see that we achieve that sustainable allocation number in some of these categories.

So by FY30, we should be good on facilities by FY31 with our fleet fire capital.

We're in a better place already because we've done some other investments on our particularly in our apparatus area.

On streets, we'll probably never get there, but we're gonna keep keep trying to move it up.

There may come a time when we get to a number there that's good.

But we are making progress.

That will all take place in September.

We had a second uh I guess a supplemental pay study for fire because that uh market moved so rapidly that uh our fire pay proposal was out of date by the time we were implementing for everyone else, so we've got funding to move that forward.

Uh we've got some skills-based pay adjustment for our inspectors.

Uh, that's another area where we continually face challenges of recruiting and retaining the baseline pay increase, market pay increase for all employees is 4% of the market or the range midpoint for each employee, and then we have three new positions, which we've discussed a bit previously.

I'll just highlight that one is a library experience uh assistant, uh, one is a fleet technician, and one is in economic development, uh, our person focused on the destination attraction for events and destination coordinate.

We mentioned this already, these are where we're continuing to invest because affordable housing, climate action.

Everywhere to everywhere greenway study continues.

I've talked a little bit more about how I want to jump start that work, and we'll hit that in a minute, and then we continue to fund outside agencies as we have in the past, but with no real increases there.

We also talked about some of the ways we've tried to be efficient and innovative.

Examples in my viral video about the budget developing an in-house capacity to complete additional greenway segments, is something I I think we we're excited to do.

We've already done some field work and kind of tweaking those alignments to so the folks who are going to build the projects can say, hey, if we can move it a little bit over here, we have a better slope, we can move it over here.

We might avoid having to do a stream crossing, that sort of thing.

So they're out there doing field examinations.

Uh they've already started uh innovative uh approaches to complete community, uh, and that certainly falls in that bucket.

Um but the key thing for for that is to make sure that we're tracking the metrics that we've put forward, um, and then we're constantly trying to leverage external grants, uh work with our congressional delegation for congressional directed funding.

Um I think some of you went to a recent event uh maybe last night about trail funding were one of the early um communities to get that sort of funding, so we keep trying to work down that path any way we can to leverage resources.

Uh when we talked about the um the overall budget on the general fund, uh we sort of covered that, but on the enterprise funds, this highlights the changes there.

So two of the funds are going up, transit and parking are going down, one percent decrease on transit, mostly due to the Route 420 going back to go triangle.

Um we do have increases in our partner contributions that are they're all aware of those.

Our parking fund one percent decrease in overall the budget.

We we only balance that fund with a general fund transfer, and we're trying to move out so that we don't have to do that.

So the more we can do to get that in line, and the more parking we can sell, the sooner we can get that to balance.

Uh the parking study work is uh beginning shortly, and the selection process is underway.

On the housing side, uh, we do see a four percent increase in the overall budget.

Um stormwater side, that's the largest increase in our enterprise funds by percent uh due to the two ERU increase, uh which is mostly focused at repleting permit required work.

And that brings us to the library contribution topic, which I think is a separate topic under itself, so why don't I pause here and allow folks to discuss and ask questions?

Um wait, I know it's a separate topic, but we're proposing the additional hire for the library.

It looks like we're running for financial strikes for the library.

How do those two things impact each other?

Oh yeah.

Yeah, I do.

Um library, but we're also looking at you know, potentially big cuts of the library.

How do those two things work out?

Yeah, excellent question.

Um, you know, there's no way we can separate them, you're right.

It's they're they're intertwined.

And so if we went down the path of some service reductions as part of the balancing effort, and they're on the table, uh the first thing you typically do there is try to reduce your part-time hours, which affects part-time employees.

You might you might not want to hire this position because they're sort of last one in, maybe the first one out on a full-time staff.

But I would um want uh Atlas to really talk about that because in some scenarios you you you might have you might have to have fewer part-time staff, and that might actually equate to enough money to have a full-time person uh to cover some of the shifts differently.

So I think we have to you know think about that a little bit more before giving a definitive answer, but you're you're right, it could mean that we should not hire that position.

Yeah, is there a way is there a way for us to like hold off on that?

Maybe the I don't know, like not immediately higher the position to figure out how it's oh yeah, we would we we would we would take that posture.

We would need everything to settle out.

Okay.

Uh Melissa.

I'm not sure if this is the time to talk about this, but I was overjoyed to see the energy efficiency payoffs.

And I am wondering about the aim in reality of the practicality of using the reserve that we'd like to do.

So taking those funds, reinvesting them into more energy efficiency that will then create more savings so that it could snowball that possible.

Well, it it is uh many um communities take that approach where sort of under sort of the guaranteed energy saving savings contract form.

Uh you use the projected savings to finance the capital expenses on the front end.

Um so you you can either do that through an actual legal financing instrument, but you can also do that synthetically and similarly, I think it's a it's a choice to decide to reinvest those savings, uh, and and we can certainly uh look into that and see how that lines up.

Louis um on the bottom of your budget slide there, so we're kind of allocating we have these priorities that we have a back bill on.

Are some of those priorities more fallacious sensitive than others, or maybe you've already considered that?

Because like a 250,000 next year is not the same as 250,000 for this year.

So is it like something that we should be trying to invest in more now while our money actually goes further, or is that probably considering that in a way to make a difference?

That's a that's a tough question because the the basket of goods in each category is is a bit different.

Uh I I think that what some folks who are trying to leverage that concept would you know might say is construction and capital now is cheaper.

So if you if you have a multi-year project, if you can get you know under contract sooner, you can avoid potentially downstream uh inflationary drivers on supplies, materials, labor, and all that stuff.

Um said that, a number of the items that are sort of operating is you know, sort of just in time purchasing, and so um I'm not sure how much we can um load up on sort of annual operating costs to to try to mitigate future issues.

Um I think it's there's you know a lot of a lot of different things in those buckets.

Um while we look at the five-year budget thing back up, so um this is really important to me.

I think I don't need things occurring for maintenance, some of the things we're but there is this concern of like an uncertainty future, and as much as um we can show what we can predict with within some reason is good.

I have a question about reading this right.

I thought fire capital issue we would go up to a million.

Is that that's right?

So the FY2027 number there is 500,000.

Sure.

Yeah, so the current allocation as a fiscal year 26 is 500,000.

That's in that current allocation column, and the fiscal year 27 is 500,000.

So the cumulative allocation will be a million.

Okay, I'm not sure if I can gather that right away from looking at the graph.

Um looks to me like we're doing 500,000 again in 2027.

Um probably put a label on on the column that's just a maybe additional way folks understand the actual numbers or the fleet number.

Yeah, um, the actual allocations.

I think it's something we we shouldn't doubt of that we're doing this work, and I want to make sure that it's captured in a way that we can understand.

I have a question on this chart, and then it's okay on to you just since we're on it.

Um, I am pretty sure that it's not going to be super articulate, so if you'll bear with me.

Um I guess um to be there, some of these where it makes sense to me by so by 2030, we are kind of caught up on a lot of this stuff, right?

And then it just takes kind of some regular care and feeding and not getting behind again in order to not be trying to put fill gaps, correct?

And then sorry, I look like you were gonna say something.

No, I I think I think that's a that's the noncept, yeah.

Okay.

And then the two, I think, pretty understandably, like staffing is harder to say, I guess, right, that will be that we'll be at a sustainable level by 2030, or I mean, I think there, but I guess what I'm trying to understand is there is this piece where we have been behind, and we've done these major investments in getting our employees back to a reasonable compensation level compared to our neighbors.

So where are we in that getting caught up?

So I think I would answer it this way.

When you when you implement a pay and classification study, um the presumption is that it is telling you what the market pay ought to be, and so then the question is are you implement are you fully implemented?

And I've seen places who aspire to implement it, but they couldn't afford it, so then they had to phase it in, or they put some caps in there, so some employees got full implementation and some got capped because for whatever you know, financial or policy reasons that was the approach taken.

So my understanding is for the most part, we fully implemented the pay plan.

We had some people who got capped.

Um those tend to be folks higher wage earners at the further up the scale and with bigger percentage.

So I I think I would say understanding that concept, because I want you to know that we did not 100% implement everything in the paying classification, but we did do a pretty good job of implementing the plan.

Uh so um what that suggests to me is that at the current level, you are caught up because it was implemented.

Okay, then comes the how do we sustain it, and so those question marks need to be um read as annually, we need to be sure we're looking across our market and and making the appropriate investment in the in the employee wage piece on our own.

So we don't get behind so we don't get behind again, and and that that means money to employees, but it also means the plan itself has to structurally move so that when you look at it in any given year, it it retains its value in the marketplace.

It's not the 2025 pay plan that we implemented in 26 and then we didn't do anything to it, and then you you go and look at it in 2030, and it's it's outdated.

You've got you've got to move that structure along.

Okay, and so it sounds to me like we've turned the corner on pay, like we're not behind anymore.

I think we can argue that we are in in a good space, we're in the market, yes.

And it may be that there are departments that need little or you know, individuals who need mods, but I'm just saying, like overall, we're not we're we're gonna still be hearing like oh, you're so out of whack, you need to like dump a bunch of money in here.

I think that your management team would assert okay, and so then we're just looking at well, what are Durham and Raleigh and other people doing, and then you know, right?

Okay, so then in terms of operations, it's just five hundred thousand a year for EFER.

Like, I I guess I just don't understand how that works.

Yeah, I'm gonna I'm gonna let Amy take a stab at that one.

Uh because this is additive.

So this is every year we're adding $500,000 to our operations budget.

Yeah, and let me say this is really a placeholder.

I mean, it's really gonna depend on what happens with the right new picture each year.

We are so desperately behind in our department operating budget for years and years, departments have had to absorb cost increases on a continuing basis.

And so this is a recognition that we need an annual influx to try and help catch them up, and also to recognize based on what's happening that year, and maybe a nod to not only is there the inflationary operational impact, but departments want to do new things to try and align with council goals and some of the things we've spelled out, and so there is a need for some new monies too, because right now 90% of the additional operational dollars are really just cost increases, technology, day-to-day operations.

There's nothing new in there, and so it's and not at trying to catch up with just providing a little bit of stability to department operating budgets and a recognition that it would be nice to have a little bit of money in there to do some new things that align with goals.

And so does that like because that feels like there's a philosophy behind it or kind of an implicit policy decision, or that and again, I want I certainly want to address if there are if we are under resourcing or we need to catch up, then we should do that.

But I also I guess feel like if people aren't aligned with council's goals, then I would want to see can you align within your current budget instead of just always adding, and I understand there are just going to be some times where uh you know there is big new shiny being or whatever, but I guess I'm wondering how we're looking at realigning you know, not getting rid of people, but like having people do slightly different things or address things differently instead of always just additive additive additive.

So yeah, that that's that's a you know fair question.

I I think what we're as Amy put it sort of plugging that in there to remind ourselves that we tend to have a one and a half percent uh cost of doing business uh you know force on us every year as contracts we have have inflationary riders in them, the actual going to the store and buying things that happen.

So we need to be cognizant of that.

But that I wouldn't say to you we're gonna ask you to fund $500,000 each year to consider ourselves on track with this plan.

I think on the layers below that represents a pretty good timeline and goal, and then you know, when the staffing area we didn't put a number we we took we talked just a second ago about how we need to look at the market.

I I think that the the operations line is sort of somewhere in between.

We you know, annually we'll go to departments and ask them you know, how how do you expect to operate next year the programs that we're operating, and they'll respond and they'll say, look, we need a little more for this and this and this, and if you really want us to do this other thing, we either need to stop doing this thing or ship, or we need to add a person to do that thing, and those are the more detailed conversations that we we would have with you as a body when we have choices to make.

Didn't have a lot of choices to make this year because it's kind of really a whole-line budget.

We have three new positions, those were choices, but not all not not a lot beyond that.

Uh, and then we made a choice to try to move forward on our sustainability plan.

But but if we you know decided that there was a big new thing we wanted to do, I I'll say next year when we're same time next year, you're gonna have the uh information about what we learn from our pilot in doing some of this trail construction.

You're gonna have the E2E consultants report, and so you'll probably have some big questions about how fast how much do you want to invest in that work, and that would drive some question into that operations line.

How much might be in the capital program, how much might that move the public works operations budget up to do that work?

Sort of depends on how we slice and dice.

So I I hope that sort of gets to the fact that we're not necessarily saying it's going to be $500,000 every year, but there is a just like anybody's sort of business, you know, having an understanding that we're gonna get pressure to uh to meet that budget goal by at least a percent, sometimes more every year.

So I guess where is the place where we look at, you know, if we're gonna be doing a lot of trail construction, and I'm making this up.

This is not my interest.

I promise I'm not policy suggestion.

But if we said, you know, well, we're we want to do less in kind of traditional parks because those are linear parks, and that's just you know, we want to we want to reallocate or we want to shift focus.

So instead of just saying what else do you need, where's the place where we also say maybe we're just changing what we do or we're shifting our focus, and I'm just wondering where in the process that happens.

Yeah, I mean, I think that that does come with your strategic input uh check in.

So I know my hope would be for next budget year, we'll begin a little bit earlier.

We will try to do some community uh outreach earlier, uh and I would like to see a first the first step in the budget process for council if we back it up perhaps till December instead of January.

From that, I would like to see a budget development guidelines come out of that work that will help construct what we do, and so you might have that kind of conversation at that point.

So we will see more of this and less of that, and then we can be responsible.

That's helpful.

I have other questions, but I'm gonna check in with council members first.

Um, Emile and Harris and Elizabeth, and I will get over there.

I will I promise.

Okay.

Do you help me understand the capital?

Not what's on this slide, but the capital needs that we have how do we factor those in so facilities.

The police and IT emergency services are there for 15 years, correct?

And so, how are we planning for when that expires we need to renew?

And then the next the next one that I'm thinking of is the parks and recreation admin team.

How do we plan for them?

Their facilities that the admins sits in we'll just date it.

And we'll just develop.

I'm gonna ask my team to help me respond to your question.

I would I would say on the on the police facility, uh we we don't have an answer for what happens after 15 years, but we know that we need one, and so that could look some different ways.

It could look like well, we make a deal and buy the place or extend the lease.

It could look like we find a different place to go and fund that project and then move, but that's not we we haven't decided that yet, so we're still at so there's there could be a placeholder of the CIP, and this is where I need staff help that says what CIP is the I'm sorry, the capital improvement program, which is where we do our all our big capital planning, so you could see like a project in there that says police headquarters, and then it says out years, 15 years out, and it's got a placeholder number or a big question mark because we we haven't done enough work to know what that's gonna be because we just got into the new one on the parks piece again, asking my team to kind of weigh in that there might already be a project in there, uh but I but I don't think it's fully funded, so you know that's where we're looking for money in.

I'm not necessarily asking for the details on those.

What I'm asking is when do we and how do we consider those because as we're looking at these things, there's pressure on us to address those as well, and I don't want us to be caught with oh we should say for this, or we should have been playing, and you may have been, but I would like to have some sense of what you're thinking.

So uh we do a uh capital movement uh project, so CIP uh project um evaluation every fall, um and that is where we ask departments to submit their projects that they um think they need uh based on Baritera on buildings, things like that, so large-scale capital projects that are typically over a million dollars, usually have a useful life of more than like five years.

Um that is built in part to the budget when we talk about the debt fund uh tax allocation, uh, but it's really also taken into account what our debt capacity is, and so we talked to council a lot about debts uh a couple years ago when we were building the 2024 referendum, um, and so that's really where our large-scale capital projects happen.

I mean, it is very difficult to pay for capital out of like our operating budget, there just isn't a lot of money, so we have our smaller scale, more maintenance-y type projects that are funded in the um operating budget, right?

And our longer term larger dollar projects are funded out of the debt funds typically by finance financing of some sort, general obligation bonds are cheapest way to borrow, so that's the typical route that we go.

Um, and we currently, when we built the 2024 referendum, we kind of talked about what our capacity was at that time.

It was about 44 million, and so we've kind of taken that capacity to plan out the projects like the fire stations, the affordable housing, some of the streets projects, that um we have uh federal funding, and so we're matching with our local dollars.

Um there was trail um and some parks projects, so that's kind of in our queue, and we do that evaluation every like five years.

We have a five-year kind of debt like outlook, and so that kind of built that five years.

So we look at it every year, but it's really in terms of talking about what capacity there is.

That doesn't happen every year because like right now we're kind of at our capacity, and yet we could always have a different conversation if some other priority came along that we couldn't anticipate.

It does.

I would appreciate I don't want to be burdensome to us, but I think it is beneficial for us to consider where we are with the capital projects so that when that fifth year rolls around, we have a greater sense of what the pressures have been because I feel for I know that we can only have a a certain amount that we can allocate, but I feel for those projects that keep getting pushed, you know, and they have to wait the next five years to be considered, and so I would love for us to to think about it.

I mean, could we be as creative with that as we are trying to be creative with staffing, you know, and just not wait just every five years for this body to look at it.

Yeah, we can come to council with an update on where we are with the debt funds and with our CIP projects uh to talk about kind of where uh those projects that are on horizon, where those stand, uh, where we are with the projects um that are kind of ongoing right now and provide an update on that and talk about what right now is unfunded based on this last CIP evaluation that we've put together.

I think that's really I agree.

I think that's really I don't think that my opinion is that's not burdensome.

I think that's our job.

Okay, uh evening.

I have a couple of questions here, and I'm looking at page number page seven in the original packet.

Um that was sent to us, and it is a matter of general fund, the budget summary, and I'm just looking at revenues, and I know that um our revenue estimates were um off last year.

We were not certain about how the about the e-bound evaluation would come through where uh the sales tax, you know, those revenues would come in at, and so I really like to get an understanding of what steps we take when making those estimates, particularly for sales tax for this year.

Like how do we go about validating our revenue estimates, particularly for the sales tax?

Do you we like compare estimates with like much county or other municipalities?

Because I know we had like a lot of extra three sense on the tax rate that we were a bit off with last year.

Sure.

Amy's going to answer this question, but I will tell you I've had to do this work myself, depending on where I work, and we've got sort of two things going on that the revenue piece is driven by whatever county you're you're in because they do the assessing, and they're the ones who transmit the tax scroll over, and then we got to build on that, and then sometimes they'll give estimates for collection rate.

Usually you're looking that's a rearward-looking number, you know, how good have we been on collecting 100% of the revenue.

The answer is we never collect 100%, or if we do, it's it's after several years of catching up for people who are on payment plans or a property gets sold, and then we get revenue back from that.

But so there's that piece, and then there's this issue of uh appeals.

You know, when you do a reval, how much is going to be an appeal?

That I think was one of the big areas where the county made an estimate of what they thought that would do, and it turned out we had fewer appeals or at least fewer dollars pulled out of the base valuation because of the appeals process.

There are other things going on there.

We we we sometimes make our own assumptions because we just have a different spidey sense about what what's going on, and that's where uh Amy excels because she's been here a long time on the sales tax piece, completely different set of dynamics.

Um even when it was possible to track that better through trend analysis, it was still weird because it's a delayed revenue and it runs through the state, and then it also gets highly skewed by our large population of counties.

So if the economy in Charlotte and Raleigh and Winston-Salem and Durham uh can kind of throw it be different than the rural parts, and when those revenues come in and track is it's really hard to track anymore, plus online sales have now put us in a completely different environment than the way we used to be.

Um that's how I see it.

So I don't uh um purport to be uh an expert on how it comes down.

Uh Amy is the one who estimate the calls, but I'm just here to tell you that I'm a second opinion that it is hard to do.

No, I last year was crazy.

So I understand the reasoning in July behind the what why we were off.

Um just I guess moving forward, like I guess you kind of answered that.

Like I just wanted to get a better understanding of all that we need to like really what you all have to deal with in terms of those estimates, considering how off we were or whatever, and um just how we kind of like check in like where are y'all calling?

What are your estimates?

What are you thinking?

Um, and also just looking at like so we have like the 2024-25 actuals looking at the estimates for 2026 and 27, and also 25-26.

No, that's probably the 2526.

How much of those estimates, how many months is that that we were in for sale?

Well, for from the majority of those revenues, this is um projected like through the end of April.

End of April.

Okay, yeah, so those are like good numbers as of end of April, and then we've estimated the the caveat with that is due to there's uh sales taxes collected three months and arrears, so like when we're projecting, or several months behind.

So, really sales tax is the hardest.

I will say we are very beholden to the county when it comes to making projections about our um assessed valuation and how much we how much growth.

Um, so you know, we're really reliant on good data from them, and um especially at a revalut coming off the reval, it is very hard to know what the impact is.

Um, so you know, we're really reliant on good data from them, and um especially at a rebout coming off the reval, it is very hard to know what the impact is, and last year, specifically because there were such um dramatic increases in the valuation, it was even harder to estimate.

So I think that was kind of a little bit of a unique situation.

We don't usually see those kind of variances.

I wouldn't anticipate we would see something like this again with the dollar amount that's like you know, the millions of dollars.

We just we have I've not seen that in my time here.

Um last year was a little bit unique.

We were about 1.4 million dollars short.

I have also not seen that um in post during the pandemic.

We thought we were gonna fall significantly short, and we didn't even wind up that short.

We were like minutely short.

Um, so last year was really an oddity, um, and it's been very difficult to track the why.

It I think it's a multitude of factors, and a lot we talked about just the volatility and markets.

Yeah, um, you know, uh, we do a lot of work behind the scenes.

Matt does a ton of work behind the scenes related to tracking trends with our collections, a lot of estimation and looking at you know, uh 10 plus years back, trying to figure out how we can best um estimate what we're gonna see based on what's happened in the last many years, and we also have um the league, and they do a pretty good job looking at state trends and trying to figure out are there kind of things they can pull out and trends that they're seeing that could help inform our estimates.

So we use the data that we have, but it the last year or two has been very challenging, um, more so than we've ever seen because we used to do a pretty good job in both of those areas, and it's been a lot harder to do that.

No, that was really helpful.

Thank you so much.

I think my other question is I know that we're looking at um some stormwater fee increases, and we'd love to have like a dollar amount on the impacts that will have on like average householders.

Um that would be really great.

I think they put it in that.

It's eight dollars and seventy, is it eight dollars and seventy-nine uh eight dollars and seventy nine cents if the increase uh per ERU?

Thank you per area, but that's two.

And we said the average household is about two ERUs, and so the current fee is 41 something, so it's gonna be just under $50 per ERU.

So we're looking at somewhere from an $80-ish dollar bill a year to just under $100.

Okay.

And an ERU is a thousand square feet, correct?

Um PRUCORE.

Equivalent residential unit.

What is it?

Yeah, equivalent residential usual.

Yes.

That means nothing to me.

Right unit.

Oh, okay.

Uh so basically what you're it's trying to do is equalize between apples and oranges.

So some people have a house of a certain size, some people have a house twice as big or three times as big.

So you kind of take that smaller size house as you're got a one ERU house, and then you're in a bigger house, you'll pay two ERUs, and if you're in the biggest, you'll pay three.

It's sort of so that way everybody's paying the impervious surface that they have.

That's the same.

So it's not your actual water usage.

No, no, this is for stormwater.

So this is the impervious surface that you're oh I see.

So it's not actually the stormwater that you are.

Yeah, there's no way to measure that.

I see.

Uh I mean, there's not no way, but I guess we can't there's no practical way to measure the stormwater coming off your property.

So we try to make it fair across the community volume of looking at it from impervious surface.

So the size of your room and your driveway kind of gets you there, and then you know how big how big a property you have.

And I think lastly, um, I would just like to also um co-sign with council member the area stating about capital projects.

Um I know we had you know some reports when we track in that is definitely um something that's been taken the night there's the challenges with that.

So yeah.

That's all I have.

Thank you so much, Elizabeth.

Thank you.

I'll go over there in a second.

Um back to the five-year budget slide.

I don't just that would be unusual.

Um I remembering correctly that this chart used to have a line of the bottom that told us how much you thought we would have to raise property taxes to meet these goals.

It did used to have that, and what we recognized was that was maybe not conveying the most accurate message in that the idea behind this is that in order to fund this year's let's say we look at 28 based on how it stands, we need 1.5 million dollars of revenue.

It's not necessarily that it has to be property tax revenue, it could be sales tax growth, it could be any other revenue source.

Um so we just thought that maybe it can be that a decision had been made without any kind of actual decision being made.

So we've just eliminated that from the table to really focus in on here's what we're saying it will take to reach these sustainable funding levels and not focus on the tax rate.

I think it might be helpful because it's healthy sales tax is so unpredictable, and property tax is relatively predictable in non-revaluation years, and it might be helpful, you know, feeling some broad assumptions about sales tax to know when for these dollar amounts we would have to raise property taxes again.

Um cut services.

Right, no, so that's the next thing.

Um is then also you know, um, I totally understand we've heard it many times that the departments have been um really underwater on their operating budgets and that they've had really a solar you know, shortfalls, etc.

Um I don't think that we have a good sense of what that looks like on the ground and whether or not there are um choices that could be made about the things that we are doing that would be an alternative to just continually raising the budget over and over again.

And I think one of the things that I would really like us to understand as a community better is whether or not our residents would prefer that we could just keep raising their taxes over and over and over again, or if they would rather say, I mean, because last year was punishing for everybody, like truly awful.

And um I think that people would really like to, I mean, people were telling us just to cut stuff.

They didn't even, and you know, it's hard for them to have a good understanding of what would make a dent or what's available to cut, or and particularly we know if we are asking our departments to do too much with too little, we can't ask them to do less, but we don't have a good understanding of what they're of what those options are, like what could we get rid of and not have to raise the budget or continuing to do that?

I understand that they should make a bit, and that's just normal, but I don't I don't feel like just raising the budget should be our only option, particularly if it comes as a relief uh an extreme pain point to our community because people's ability to stay here is not cool enough and the same way just um you know I think I was very much in support of doing the budget that we did last year because I felt like we really wanted to do it to be sustainable, but I also feel like at some point we we have to um come back instead, and I would really like us to engage the residents around that process if that becomes a choice that we want to make.

Thank you, council member, and I think that my my hope is that engaging the community a bit on the early side and then engaging the council a bit on the direction side gives us some different touch points to have that kind of work done.

We also have our survey going out, our resident satisfaction survey, and we'll we'll get that information into the discussion.

Uh but uh I I agree with you, and one of the things I said to our employee forum today uh you know about the the staffing piece is I I I'd rather pay the employees we have uh appropriately than add staff and then create that additional continuous burden and have a bigger staff competing for fewer dollars for raises and professional development.

So that's the tension that we we always have to have.

So we really need to think hard about whether we want to expand things and whether we can track something else before before we make that decision.

Oh my goodness, if I got a little thought on the anthemologies, would be that I think from the resident standpoint, they don't know that our departments are doing too much with too little, right?

Like they're looking for just getting picked up and leads aren't.

Um but they but they um so to them the idea that we have to raise the budget to keep the status quo doesn't feel so I mean, just as another you know, part of the communications process to be like, look, this is this is how we are getting this done, and it's really not appropriate that we're getting this much done at this level, and so you know, but these are the trade-offs that might have to be made because for them it's like everything is hump dory, but we just keep raising our taxes and risking our taxes.

And so um, I think making a larger picture apparent to everybody that we're doing too much with too little is pretty important particularly that we want to try to raise taxes ever again.

Well, and on that issue of leaf collection and solid waste collection, that that that was a meaningful uh policy and service change that was designed to have benefits to employees but also to the budget by being more efficient.

Uh it takes fewer people to operate a mechanized route, and so folks will use the carts, put it in the cart so you can tip those carts and get get on down the road.

I'm all I'm all in on the no reason.

That's not an issue, but we definitely hear a lot about it, and I think again, it's just one of those sort of things like internal from the perspective of the people who are funding all of this.

It's just like wait, everything was fine, and you're gonna charge a bunch more money and take something away because they don't know that the departments they don't see like we can't afford to make enough copies or whatever it is that's happening.

They don't know because to them they're getting their leads picked up and their garbage picked up and their libraries open, and great.

Um so yeah, I think and I think it would be everybody's help for us as a council to really understand like what that um what those pressure points are in the departments that and whether or not like I mean there should just do less do less, yeah.

Can I just ask a quick add on to that?

Which is is there a way to because this is kind of I think then one of my other questions is like how are we balancing growing the budget for versus um through property taxes, but we also do have economic development things?

We we do have um property taxes that are like are there ways to understand from a sustainability standpoint, like over time, are we able to cover what we're doing with how much we're gonna make, you know, because there are times where we'll have a big project come out of the ground like South Creek, and we're like that's gonna be a pretty good addition to our um to our you know baseline amount of money we bring in each year, but like how then there's also like at some points there are more services that are needed, and you know, I know it's complex, but I'm just wondering how we're balancing to show we're not just always growing without having something to fill it in besides property tax.

Like, how do we how is there are there ways?

I mean, I know it wouldn't be a hundred percent accurate, but are there ways to even be able to think about that in a five-year budget cycle?

I mean, we we we'd be happy to have some conversations internally about what other people are doing if we're learning from I know some folks have you know financial models, uh it's basically a stacked spreadsheet of all their different sort of revenue sources, and they may feed it with anticipated property growth, but again, that's an estimate and the timing is always challenging.

Did it actually get built?

Did was the is the actual valuation consistent with the you know building permit, which is where they might get the number to put in their model.

Sometimes that doesn't sure it would not be so we can look at that um and and provide some feedback as to whether we think something a tool like that is something we can do, how you know what it would take uh you know to put something like that together.

Um have you gone yet?

I know if it's okay, I'll just have our own.

Thank you.

Um yeah, uh Elizabeth, thank you for that because I think it's just important that we we keep remembering that last year was really was a big shock from what I heard that you know things have gone much better for us and was happy.

Um but then there's a little bit of that's like, well, you know, we raised a little bit too much, and what are we what's the what's really the right thing to do with this money?

And um did a little bit of wrestling with myself on that one, and I have to say that I appreciate the ways you have decided to spend that money.

Um that was that was extra.

I think it's going to the core services and trying to beef up and get to a sustainable level for a while.

So um so I can I can be on board with this with this plan, the way you're deciding to handle that issue.

Um so but I think that it is getting hard for people to stay here, and we need to we need to figure out a way we can have those discussions and say, look, here are all the things we want to do, here are things we've done for a long time, that are they still important to us, are they less important, yeah, balance from something else, kind of take the front seat and something else take the back seat.

I think figuring out a way to facilitate us to have those discussions will be super helpful.

Um I was happy to hear you talk about the engagement and I get why we're doing the plan that we're doing this year.

I know I'd like to Raleigh and Durham do some of the long lines of what you're talking about.

They go very early in the process, they go out to the community and bring a report back to the council to talk about what kind of um what they're looking for.

So I don't know if that's what you intended, but I thought that was interesting to see that they not only engage people once the managers recommended budget is that, but they actually go out earlier and say, okay, here are some here's some things we're thinking about, what what's up in my mind?

Um let's see, so in terms of the goals for a complete community, you know, for me that's the reason why I sit here is to try to make sure that we're implementing that.

And I appreciate that right now at this point, we're talking about doing some the projects and talking about doing the plans that we already have.

But I think one of the important things about complete community is it kind of has an entrepreneurial spirit to it.

I think some of it is um and it's being proactive.

So it's the idea that if we can be smart about our infrastructure investment, we can really achieve some of those important community goals that people are trying to do.

Um, if we can reach out to people who want to do the kind of development that we want, uh instead of waiting for stuff to come here.

I know I've seen a lot of good things from our economic development team reaching out and bringing good things in.

I think that's the kind of sphere if we can bring that to the whole complete community endeavor.

Um I think that would be great.

So I think maybe next year when we're looking kind of earlier and bigger picture, if we can talk about that, that would be super helpful.

Um, and just to talk about the new positions that Louie brought up, um, I think it makes sense to for the library to hold until we really know what the funding issue looks like.

I feel the same way about the destination coordinator, the current um visitors bureau head is retiring, she's leaving in November.

I don't know if they're reorganizing, I don't know what they're doing in that.

So before we commit to an FTE, I think I'd like to just give us some time and see what the county's actually do.

Um, and then you know, then if we decide that needs to then I talk to somebody in our tourism industry, and he was very supportive of bringing that into as a town function.

He feels like we're we're different from the county, and we can do a better job of that.

So um I I'm fine with the concept.

I just want to make sure that as kind of a complicated situation settling out, maybe we just give them the whole time.

Thank you.

Um here is yeah, I just want to go on the Elizabeth and yes.

I think everybody can we know um I think I was kind of cute by our organizational physical sustainability goals because I think it's definitely for town government, but I'd also see it as like making sure that we run government in such a way that's a vision for the citizens to see that's the vision.

So I think everyone was kind of typing to develop across town, and like they don't have the narrative that we're gonna make sense of like why are we spending more money?

And like fair or unfair, that's what I'm hearing from a lot of people right now when they talk about the budget.

There's an increase in the budget.

You raised my taxes last year, you took away services, and now you're increasing the budget.

And we sit here, we understand that's what's going on, but I would just like for us to get ahead of that.

Because like if we do have to raise taxes again, or the state limits how much taxes we can raise, we really got to slash services.

People are going to be really surprised because they don't know what's going on right now.

So I just I think it's worth doing communication about our budget, about our partners operate, even outside the budget side 100%.

Well, I just had two questions, comments to wrap up my portion of this.

Um I echo all my colleagues and everything they've said about our real focus on helping people understand and doing our best to communicate and engage and really need to look ahead to make sure that we're on this path.

And I think we I would love in the future to see a look back to five years before FY 2022 and see how far you all and we all have done to get us to the place where we're at on these different things.

I think that helps tell the story.

Um the destination services thing, I would also um like to pause on that because we don't know if the county is going to do, we have questions about that relationship, as much as I do in the library, but also I think from from our seed, from my seed, it's kind of like why are we doing destination services and what are the where does it fit and our priorities?

If it's economic development, what kind of outcomes we look to see from destination services and economic development, how does it partner with community artists of culture with the events staff they have?

Uh we talk about product for economic development in general.

I'm curious about the overall strategy, like uh what products do we have for conferences and festivals that are outside of UNC property, and then you know, does our destination services outcomes really depend on our relationship with UNC?

So if we're it seems to me like hiring a person is an action or activity for achieving a goal that may not be completely uh fleshed out yet, or if it is, I don't know what it is.

So it seems like hiring a person would be the cart, and the horse would be this whole strategy of what we want to get out of destination services, and a whole like squat analysis on uh what are our strengths and weaknesses and things like that.

But I do think our economic development team is great, and uh if it works out that hiring that person is a good part of this strategy, that's great.

I would love to see the strategy first.

Um the only thing here left for me to um, and again, I'll echo, I think you said it.

I'm very on board with the budget of what you put together here.

What's missing, the only thing that's missing is um, or not missing, but a question is uh Chantal recovery, we spent a lot of time talking about that.

This idea of technical assistance, so individual homeowners that we see carbon around different folks investing in.

I believe I've heard you say that we do this already.

Um but it is the question that if we have extra money, why isn't it going into additional uh disaster preparedness or relief in that way?

So perhaps if I could just ask if uh you could reiterate how the town staff and our current resources are providing these services to people, um, and kind of if if I said Chantal recovery, I I did a control F for the entire budget document.

I didn't see the workshop all, which is fine, but I do um think that I was looking at the carbo budget, and they've spent a lot of time talking about Chantal last year and investments in the budget coming forward.

So if I saw any uh poll here on how do you spend extra money, one of them might be this uh stormwater technical assistance piece to help homeowners, and I just would like to hear is that something that we are currently doing that we can do in existing staff, or is it one of these items that we're choosing not to fund in this particular budget cycle?

Thanks for that question.

Um I'll just mention on the Chantal side because we weren't hit in the same way that Carborough was, they're gonna have definitely some stronger pieces of their budget because their whole fleet was wiped out, their police you know, police was gone, they they lost their garage.

We didn't have any of the we had some public housing that you require that are getting uh redeal with, but it's funded out of a different pot, so it just feels different, I think the way the budget's talking about it.

Uh, and that's different than general sort of stormwater technical assistance, but sometimes the two kind of get blended because it's related to stormwater, right?

So you know a flood.

So um we have not come back to you yet uh as we intend to do uh from the workshop we had the work session we had on stormwater.

We will be coming back and um we have already uh as a as a staff team uh come to the position that we need to more clearly communicate the levels of support that we can provide to our community and so it it as we're conceptualizing it, it looks like sort of technical assistance which we need to then advertise so people know they can call us and get that, and then we have uh sort of uh programs that we can maybe share in the cost, some cost sharing programs potentially, and then and then maybe some grant programs.

So we're sort of looking at what are those buckets look like and how do we label them and organize them and market them so people can know how they fit in into that sort of um spectrum of offerings.

And so the technical assistance might be purely personal private benefit.

Uh we can't really spend town money on there, but we can help you with some information like the best way to solve this runoff problem on your property is you know, have your driveway sloped a different way, or have those gutters from your roof piped away from your foundation, or what you know, that's that technical assistance piece or a dispute between two property owners, what's the best way to solve this?

Another level might be a a grant program where we match and if you're willing to invest something, we'll invest something because it has some benefits to the to the community on quality or quantity.

And we haven't like I said designed that, but but that might be uh a a piece where we might have some kind of matching thing.

And then there might be some other level of program, the sort of neighborhood level thing that we need to get involved with.

Um so so we're working on that.

We're gonna come back to you when we have ideas of how we'd like to start that with you to see if that meets your interest.

We also um are working to get that scope of work with NC State for our program review.

We'll bring that back to you so you can weigh in on it before we do that do that work.

Um meanwhile we continue with our installation of um uh monitoring equipment so we can s continue to build towards that uh flood elevation modeling and warning system, and you'll you'll get an update on kind of all this work when we come back to you with our stormwater response.

And so is there any in this fiscal year's budget to do any of the things you're talking about?

Yeah.

Yeah, yes, that I mean the theory.

I know there's an increase in the fee, but that's mostly for the Jordan Lake.

But that that fund has sufficient resources to answer these questions.

If if we need additional resources to fund parts of those programs, you know, that we'll we'll have conversation about that.

But to my understanding, we have sufficient resources to kind of run you know, some of that out.

What we what we probably don't have is big capital dollars for for some of the big sort of constructed type work that we might want to do.

Um but that's we're not we don't have any teed up at this point.

So my questionnaire kind of this name names dealed in um around Chantal.

Um can you just remind us where we are in terms of receiving funding um both from the federal um and specifically this date?

Uh yeah, I think I better uh try to get you a written response uh after this because it has been a little while since we submitted.

Um we had, as you may recall, a we hired a third-party consultant who was an expert in filing this paperwork and try to help us right-size our requests and and get the information on that, and it's been a little while since I've heard from that, so I think definitely want to hear from the experts in emergency management that we have started to get some reimbursement money coming in, but it is slow in terms of pacing.

Then my next question is just listening to the conversation.

How should we be how should we think about and understanding growth as it pertains to be paying for inflationary costs?

How should we be thinking about that?

Yeah, I I mean again, great question.

Uh some of that sort of modeling and kind of what is our uh capacity to carry our services and how does that relate to our our property valuation?

I mean, those are some sort of macro level questions that we we would I think potentially benefit from doing some analysis on uh you know how much developable land do we have, um what's the ISMS use.

So I think we've been focused a lot on the housing LUMO issues and less on those questions, but it's appropriate that we kind of maybe move into that uh work uh to to really help guide our thinking.

Um I I'm as I come to this community and I see that we're hemmed in on all sides in terms of our footprint.

You have to ask those kind of questions like well, what what are what are the options?

I think the council's uh movement into more dense choices has been the right move with you know what you what you got, and it it's housing focused.

Um I I think we're seeing the private sector supporting that decision by bringing creative projects to us, um, but there are probably other questions uh that we we may need to ask.

And finally, I just like to say that, or just signal like the support for the addition of the the three positions, um some of the explanation, especially with our fleet technician um being able to bring um that expertise on in-house and having that um make sense to me.

Um I guess maybe just hearing from my colleagues, just you know, some understanding on the benefits with you know bringing something on the development, um, how that's fitting in anything, uh maybe they did that can give us an update on that, um, and also under just a better clarification and understanding on what that potential position for the library go to would be very helpful as well.

So thank you so much.

Um Elizabeth, then Camille, then we'll just perhaps think you're um looking at the three staff positions.

Um the destination report here made sense to me because it's a revenue generating like the right generating position.

And so, you know, since we're talking about all these different ways of like trying to diversify our organization and et cetera, that just makes sense to me to add that position.

But I really do like what I'm hearing my fellow council members saying about like what's the strategy and what can we expect to what's the return on investment in that, um, like knowing some things about like how much did the town make off of the soccer games in the summer and the savannah bananas, and like really I've also heard some weird things from um residents, like I don't know enough about how those deals were structured, about how much money the university made off of some of those things versus how much the town benefited, and I would um I think I would really like to have a better understanding of you know, we keep having these great lessons really excited to have a business for our businesses, but then the university is their what they're making out of it just what I'm hearing here that we hear say far outweighs our benefit, and so kind of knowing how we could strategize that destination coordinated position around town benefit, um you know university outside facilities.

Um but uh yeah, that's just I think I would just like a better understanding of how both how we have and how we plan to benefit and you know how we are being as strategy at that set.

I'm supportive of it, but yeah, I don't know they could feel it.

We're not just kind of throwing in the walls with stakes.

Oh, and um uh sorry just going to my sort of fix.

Just to know that I think it just came out the economic development report that the maybe the Vision Bureau does or the university, I don't know that we have data on I think some of your question, but I think you're right.

I and I when I asked um some folks in the chancellor's office, they said, oh no, the Sabana Bananas keep most of the revenue, we don't make a lot, you know.

And then so that it's all I don't know what that means.

And also I think the bigger question is like NIL has just shifted everything, and so now the university being it's maybe like maybe gambling, right?

You know, like it's just so crazy now that I do feel like it would be good to understand who's making a lot of money and how to be also then support but not be like paying for the position like that.

Like, are we thinking oh that person will bring in two large events a year and we can expect to make this much benefit this much in tax revenue from those events each year?

Like that's why it makes sense all the while.

I completely get it.

It sounds a great idea, but yeah, I don't think we have a lot of data around why it's really a good idea.

Well, you're yours spot on so I I've been in a couple places where there was this interest in sports tourism, and well, we need to have these uh baseball or soccer or softball type facilities or lacrosse facilities that bring in these tournaments, and all these families are gonna come and then they're gonna spend all this money, and that's gonna be great.

And that is a true uh economic strategy that's valuable to some communities.

Myrtle beach is a good example, a lot of excellent facilities, but what do they also have?

They have a lot of hotel rooms and a lot of restaurants, and those hotel rooms and restaurants uh sometimes aren't as full in the off season, so their strategy was to build in a bigger on season with sports tourism, uh, and that works for them.

Um but if you're a community that doesn't have hotels and doesn't have restaurants, then what revenue are you getting?

I'm just saying if you if you didn't then people are coming in.

At least like two or three.

People are coming in and they're they're they're paying a tournament fee, and that goes to you know rake the fields or cut the grass, and then they leave town.

Yeah, and so did you did you really get anything?

Well, maybe maybe if they bought snacks or pay, you know, got a tank of gas, maybe, but maybe they just came in and left.

So your community design and what your kind of revenue streams are is very important to what your strategy is.

Yes, we do have restaurants, and we do have hotels, so that's why we think this notion of destination coordinator has a good role to play, but as to your specific exactly kind of what would our revenue target be, how many events should we try to see when and all that sort of the we we can try to wrap some more details around that and uh and engage with you on that to see what the specific examples are.

I I've mentioned that I think the Friday Center is an asset that's underutilized.

Um there's a particular hotel and nearby hotels that could benefit there that used to, and you wonder why you know they they didn't used to have a hotel there.

Well, the Friday Center was driving a lot of uh out-of-town events, so then they created a market.

Well, then they changed their their event schedule and left that property kind of hanging.

And so I'd like to see us maybe help turn that around.

Uh, but it wouldn't just benefit that one hotel.

There's other restaurants in the area and other hotels down the street.

So um that's that's anecdotal though.

I I think what you're trying to get us to do is bring back to council a little more data, a little more specific specificity and what we think we could generate, and and I think that's fair.

Thank you.

Good evening, everyone's at 11:30, the library recording in 30 minutes again, it is at 1030, and we are early in 30 minutes.

Thank you.

Okay, um, I appreciate everyone going because of my list kept getting longer.

Thank you.

Uh city positions.

You're talking about that, and one thing that I think would be helpful is for us to understand the trade-offs.

If we don't fill them, what does that mean for us?

And so I would love to hear more about we are under pressure with funding, possibly probably changing for the library.

But have we been under pressure?

What does that mean for that position that I've heard has been on deck?

I'm saying on deck because I love baseball, and also because you said that they have not had a new position in quite some time.

So I'm assuming it's been on deck.

So helping us to understand what that trade-off is, we don't fill these positions, right?

What's the additive?

What is what is the cost of not?

So I think I can speak on a couple of the your library directors here in the room, and I would want to speak for her on that one because I think she can speak to the relationship between the potential of cuts or downsizing.

If we don't get the funding, and then what benefit we get from funding the position.

So I'll set that aside for companies to come address.

But on the mechanic piece, uh we just see the volume of work has steadily increased.

The number of vehicles has increased the age of the fleet, while we're starting to turn that to a better place, as you can imagine, the older vehicles take for maintenance.

And so what happens is we end up with turnaround time issues where it's a challenge to get the vehicles in and out, and so they're on the deadline for days or weeks, and we have had some instances of public safety vehicles not being able to being deadlined for several days or even uh a couple of weeks while we wait for cars or can't get them done, time deadlined.

Meaning they're not uh able to be driven.

Okay.

Uh so um adding another staff person will hopefully help with turnaround and on the repairs and more time to make this.

I had a question about that one that you make me think of is as our staff is going through development, because they have to keep up with the new the new ways of doing this.

Would that new position also enable more opportunities for coverage?

You know, more opportunities for others.

Oh, I think that's right.

If you've got to send people to training, that's always a challenge with departments that are kind of you know on the edge of having enough staff for for day to day, and then you send somebody away to to get their uh certification or training trained on electric vehicle maintenance or uh new safety systems uh then they're not there, so you're right.

It is a challenge.

So having a little bit of capacity there is helpful.

Um so that's speaking to the fleet position on the uh I mean we talked a fair amount about the Dustin Nation coordinator already, but I I will say that uh if we don't require that position conceptually, that the idea is we we're just not going to get into trying to recruit um uh you know conferences and events in the same way.

We we really don't have the capacity to be focused on on that.

We're we're trying to develop product, meaning you know, buildings and placing businesses into existing buildings in town, uh, looking for that capital investment, and also uh companies that can help create jobs.

That's a different piece of work than trying to get conferences to come and and and locate in Chapel Hill in either the smallest ones in the hotels or the more moderate sized ones in a facility like Friday Center or some other uh potential venue.

So, what I'm getting at with this question is we need this type of information so that we can consider what the trade-offs are.

You're offering us no tax increase at this point, but we are thinking is that the best use of our resources or our limited resources and helping us to understand if we were to add these three, this is what you get.

If we don't add these three, this is what we run the risk of not having.

So that's why I'm asking those questions.

I am curious about that class one.

I know we've talked about it a lot, but I'm curious, how can we encourage people to spend time in dollars in Chapel Hill?

Those one-day events, I know we didn't we didn't do them, but those one-day events I have heard from restaurants downtown who say they bypass us because the people come in and they park on, they park in the where we want them to, right?

At the Friday Center at the Rosemary Deck and Southern Village, then they get on the buses, which is what we want them to do, and they're taken to the venue, and then they're hand-delivered, bus delivered, to the vendors inside of that facility on the UNC's campus, spend money there, then they come back, get on the buses, and go back to those fringe centers.

So I did see, I will say, in all fairness, um we the person I was with, we walked that tunnel and went to um BRICS, which is across the street, across 54, and there were some, not a lot, you know, and I don't know how the other restaurant did over there, but regardless of if we take that position on, I would like for us to for the town to think about how do we either make it happen or how to park it so that when those events are happening, we are thinking about our businesses here.

How can we make them thrive and not suffer?

Great, great points, and I think that's exactly the type of thinking that we would expect our staff person to be engaged with.

Uh the the bananas is uh was um maybe our first in a while foray into kind of can we influence that and so I think our team did a pretty good job of engaging with business owners uh uh in the community and and trying to say what you know what thing can you do that might attract uh uh that fan base, and then we'll put it together in some sort of communication vehicle, which we we had a brochure and an electronic kind of version, and then we mailed it uh sent it, I guess, to the group called the K Club, which is sort of a special, so like can we do more targeted connections like that so people will think, well, you know, I can I can I should stay for uh a little while, let the traffic die down and come you know eat lunch, or let the track die down and stay for dinner, or whatever it is.

Um it's kind of fine-tuning all that.

Okay.

Um growth and services, we've talked about that, you know, how those two go hand in hand.

Um I would be curious, so this isn't an answer.

I this is not a question for you to give me an answer tonight, but I would be curious about how we're approaching that Carolina North, and I'd like to hear more of as they reveal what they're planning to do there, and that's going to be regardless of what it is, there's going to be more density and the services that we provide, how will that be provided, and how would that be we provide, and how will they, because they don't have to pay us for services, right?

So I am I'm just curious about how we approach that.

You sometimes give us a payment.

Or that is previously money.

Right, is that but that was under the previous thing.

Well, I'm just saying it's been done or asked for in the past, but no, they're not required.

Right.

So that's a that's a thought that I I've had thanks to the conversations that have occurred tonight, is that is going to be a density area, and how do we how do we consider that?

Then so that's that's something I want to think about.

And then temporary housing, and I know we've talked about this, so please indulge me here.

Where's the funding coming for those who have been displaced by Chantal, those residents, those public house and residents?

It's coming from the public housing fund right now, and um we are we we have received some reimbursement from our insurance carrier related to the the building itself, um, and we are hopefully going to get some level of reimbursement from uh FEMA through the state.

Um there is a big question about how much of the actual tenants uh displacement they will actually pay for.

So ultimately the difference of whatever monies we get between insurance and um FEMA will be paid for by housing.

Thank you.

I have that question asked of me, and I could not answer it, so I appreciate that.

So I appreciate that.

And the last thing is communications and engagement.

I hear this repeatedly from us, and I want to add on to that.

Helping us to understand is huge because then we can explain our rationale for supporting it or for challenging the recommended budget, right?

And so let's take the example of last year's increase in the tax rate, which I voted for because I'm firmly believed that we needed to pay staff, and then there were some things that were out of date.

We needed to replace, we needed to update.

What I didn't have a screen handle on was that I didn't realize it was the leaf collection.

You have shared some more things tonight that I didn't hear before.

The savings, it wasn't said in a way that I could repeat it.

The savings that we have with the three, the three trucks, I have heard that at a previous meeting, but three vehicles that were much beyond their retirement date.

And that cost so being able for for us to articulate these factors would be so helpful rather than just the video that is produced saying leave the leaves, and this is what you can do, right?

Because that's Larry, I think you said this on a previous meeting.

That's an option, right?

For people to leave the leaves.

For some people have, and we've heard from some, they may have allergies to the leaves and what grows if they're about to stay.

But helping people to understand the rationale that went into making those decisions, and first starting with us, helping us to understand is really important in the engagement.

If we can get in front of this is what we're this is what we want to do, and we want to tell the public this is work, this is what we propose to do.

So my point here is communicate clearly.

Please don't use jargon, please don't use acronyms.

People don't get them.

I've been on council, this is my fifth year.

I'm sure I've heard repeatedly, and I don't get it.

Please use working from here.

Yeah.

And there's a reason why it's it's that please use plain language.

Um, it's gatekeeping otherwise.

And please help us to engage with the public.

We that's what we ran though, was to engage with the public, but we need the staff to engage with the public too.

Thank you.

Not for discussion tonight, but I'm interested in whether or not we've heard anything about the FEMA buy-out money while you're talking to FEMA.

Because I heard that that the FEMA buyout money had been flooded loose.

But we didn't get the designation, so like we're not even eligible.

Oh we we'll correct me if I'm wrong, but Governor Cooper Governor Stein, sorry, um did give us the state designation, which is why we wouldn't be getting some money from the state, but the federal did not give us the disaster declaration or whatever it's called, and so we don't you're not even eligible to then apply into that grant program, which you don't necessarily get.

So there's no way okay.

Um, the other the other thing I was wondering, and um, it's just to sort of follow on to how do we explain the value of being able to take in that position of the destinations, and I will admit that I was not a good economic student student, um, but I'm but I'm interested in as you do that evaluation and report back to us.

I'm interested in the kind of value we get from the outside money coming into the local economy and bouncing around a few times that we get sales tax every time it changes hands, and the the businesses and computer is something that um that I wonder about, and I don't know how we I don't know whether it's too intangible for us to talk about in terms of value added, but uh the value of helping keep our not just money that the town gets in revenue, but the value of those events for increasing the vibrancy and the and the long-term sustainability of businesses in town, which is a value to the town, even though we're not getting necessarily direct money on it, and whether and whether we've got a devaluation from what kind of benefits we did get from the bananas.

And whether and whether we've got a devaluation from what kind of benefits we did get from the bananas.

So don't need an answer now, but as you report back, so those are some of my thoughts.

Thank you.

I think we got the economic development analysis, right?

I think we learn David's got the report, but I think 17 million dollars was the sort of net um community benefit.

But you know, how is that slice of the dice we can get you more details of that?

Um I do have I think I would just echo, well, I'd echo a lot of things, but Amy's point about complete community and trying to be entrepreneurial and thinking about what it I guess to me I'm not maybe maybe you can just maybe I'll ask as a question.

When you have complete community implementation up there as one of our as our primary goal, what what is behind that, or what does that mean, or what are the things, what are the activities or what's in this budget that does that?

I mean, the greenways I think is super exciting.

I'm we I'm thrilled about that.

I guess it that wasn't the only thing that it seemed like it was talking about, and the rest of it I'm not sure I'm understanding.

I mean that's fair.

I I think that the uh concept is is a broad concept, but I think it informs our work in several different ways.

So the greenways is a piece of it, and I think that leads for pretty pretty hard the connectivity.

But it also speaks to the notion of the regulatory environment and the blue mode process.

That's also underway.

We're continuing that, and uh I I don't need to add new funding to that.

We just need to keep going to get that done.

But then it also speaks into the mix of development, uh where things are uh how those developments meet multiple community needs, like public spaces, um uh you know parking for uh alternative modes of transportation like bicycles, um walkability and connection to adjacent parcels, um you know, kind of the the way the street is activated, and so those kinds of things are in uh David's team's mind as we look at how do we redevelop the property we own, how do we encourage our private sector uh folks to uh meet those needs through their projects?

So that's ongoing again, not always something we have to budget for as much as a mindset that's in our economic development team, and then sometimes we come to you for money that might be needed for incentives or to hire a consultant to help us there's a project out there that we're getting close to on wanting to do that, um and then uh having that same mindset in our housing program, uh which again is funded a little differently, you know, for what through our our housing fund and our um federal uh sources and our bond sources you know, we could point those in several different directions, but the mindset is to do it in a way that speaks to the complete community's goal, which is why we're proposing some of the projects that we have, like the fire station repurposing that feels like it fits into that complete communities concept because it's on a transit corridor, you know, as opposed to going to some green field place and saying, well, look, that's the plan we have, we're gonna put a house there.

So it it's as much a mindset and uh how do all the departments work together on this as it is any discrete piece of funding.

And so to that end, we want to give you some metrics to help us think about are we meeting that vision by measuring some pieces of that?

And that's again why we should put that on the table and would invite any additional thoughts about how we might measure that.

And I well, I guess a couple things come to mind.

One is that it's data library, it's quite a car, yeah.

And so I guess that to me feels like a concrete theme, like a planning exercise that needs to be done that I think we asked this like a while ago in the LUMO work, and maybe it's not, you know, I'm never gonna be completely right about what's LUMO and what's not.

But um, I guess the point is like there's that, there's also um neighborhood commercial and understanding where the kind of best opportunities are, so that David can like work his magic and go and find you know the people who do you know the things that we want, which obviously is going really well, which you know.

So I'm just wondering how we are kind of creating more of a strategic framework around knowing what we're targeting and being proactive as opposed to waiting for people to come to us and then try to negotiate them into doing something they may not do, or um, missing out on opportunities, like the neighborhood commercial to me feels like if we're not really intentional about it, it doesn't it happens in a long time because you know developers will just wait until it's so dense that it's like you know, oh yeah, we could support a little bit, and so I don't want it to be not viable, but I also want to know where we're trying to do it.

So, like there's these things that I just feel like would actually help us be more targeted, but I'm wondering like how where did those things happen or how do we do those things?

Well, I can just speak to two things.

One is when the future land use, I mean, sorry, when the luminous done, I think the next sort of major exercise for planning would be to take a look at our future land land use map again and kind of think about how do we need to adjust it to match up to the LUMO.

And we've talked a little bit about doing some proactive rezoning.

Um we haven't gone down that path too much, but that's a potential way to be proactive is you that that that's a huge incentive for folks to have by right ability to come in.

Um if you're comfortable that the LUMO guides them to a good outcome by policy and standards, then you might be more willing to do that kind of proactive rezoning and not have to take people through the longer and more exacting uh additional zoning process.

So, but I think that that has to come after the LUMO.

The standards are that's a that's a piece, and then another piece that we are doing is um uh there's a an effort to uh partner with the US CDA on this is something that did come out of Sean Tell eligibility is to do a targeted uh economic development plan to be more proactive in the corridor from Franklin Street up to South Esky.

So that that'll that hopefully focuses on your sort of midtown area where there's some interest in being more proactive and having a real kind of um uh action plan to to you know that's proactive in that corridor and might inform some uh rezoning type work for council to incent and work in there.

And what about neighborhood commercial around the rest of town?

I mean, I know it can't be supported anywhere, right?

And maybe David, maybe you could just like look at a map and be like, yeah, it's possible.

Like, here's the five places I would say it's like reasonable, or I don't know, you know, the I don't pretend to be in the brain, but I'm just wondering like how do we get at that.

You know, I think that's more of the future land use map exercise where some of those types of questions can be researched and put forward for policy discussion.

Um okay, and then in terms of this um this document, are you asking for feedback on that this evening, or is this for a future work session?

Uh you know, if you have some, we'll certainly take it.

Um but we wanted you to know that it's not just lip service, we actually have something on the table for feedback, and that we intend to use this kind of framework as a way to um inform your thinking and uh provide feedback.

Well, I guess might be picture feedback is first of all, I'm really excited that we're um like that we're getting somewhere on this, and I think some of the things that we're talking about as metrics or descriptions of things just don't feel like metrics to me, or they feel like things like spending money to me is like as a as an official member of the bureaucracy, that is my number one metric I love.

I bet, I bet.

I'm hard to selling that together.

Do we have the weed back?

No, I I mean, so the measurement type, you know, uh effectiveness, efficiency, uh that that goes, I think we we want to weave those in as a preference to just levels of spending or uh you know or some of them are like activity counts.

Right, or like yeah, so I get that, and those are things we'll try to work in, and often you want multi-faceted measurement like can you can you measure effectiveness and efficiency plus your level of effort and then track that over time, and then you say, Well, does our level going up or down have anything to do with efficiency or reflection?

Of course.

Um, this is our first attempt, and so those things are just did we do things because um producing work plans, for example, uh doesn't speak to measuring efficiency for effectiveness, but it does speak to intent.

And it says, hey, we want you to develop a work plan that does this thing and frames it in this way.

Um so it you know it has some value, it's just it's not uh the same measure as well.

No, and some of them you can't do, you know, progress towards 900 units.

Like to me, that's a really clear metric where it's like we have a goal and it's been informed by other things, but that to me is easy to understand, or that would be easy to do a data visualization of like our goal is 900, we're at 700.

Like, but some of them are like you know, semi-annual updates to project project schedule to me is like an activity, but it doesn't tell me whether we're achieving a goal or not that we care about.

Yeah, so I'm glad it's happening, but to me that's not a concern practice.

So some of that might be more appropriately labeled as information sharing with council or alignment activities as opposed to performance metrics.

Right.

And and hopefully the metrics will come out of those activities because we don't want the metrics to be unreasonable.

But that would be my big picture feedback and then I'll guide it on.

Well, I was saying big picture, and then we'll hand it over.

We will take comments until 8 p.m.

tonight.

It's I think the library's already um but do we need to do the four questions?

Well, I think let's just make sure.

Um is that what is that library?

Yes, I think um do you want to do the uh the questions first or the library first?

Up to y'all.

Well, I mean, will the library help us answer these questions?

Or you could do the questions.

Yeah, I think I think you're right.

Okay, it's a it's a it's a big big topic.

And I know there were some questions about the position that we didn't get into Atlas's here.

Great.

Um I don't know whether I want to put her sitting right here, but I have the mic that you pass it back.

This is a perfect chance for me to step to the restroom while you that's perfect.

What do you think if you I just can't it's hard from well, actually I can see you might have to look at this anything.

Do you want me to stand?

Well, I don't think you can stand you could come just to the table, it would be easier to spot.

Yeah, and I like to appear I like to read libs and hear your words, so um, so I just wanted to start since there were some questions about the library position.

Um, and there's a couple things I wanted to say.

Um the first is that the letter association the leverage position would be allocated to community history, which is a division that has been a division of one for many years.

Uh Molly Louis was a fantastic job within the community, um, working with our elders in relationship building, looking up stories, histories, marginalized voices.

And the demand for her services has done nothing but increase, and her programs are blockbusters.

And in order to do what she's doing, we have to borrow staff from other divisions to assist her, which creates short staffing on our front and staff.

And so really that's that's what we were looking for for this position as someone who could permanently help her.

Um to get not only the work that she's doing and to meet that increased demand, but also to complete some new initiatives that we've been wanting to accomplish.

Um and I will say that our budget ads for this position were put out there before Orange County gave any indication that they were thinking of reusing or eliminating our findings, so I understand where the office come from around that.

Um but I do also want to point out that Orange County does not contribute to any of our full-time staffing positions or the associated benefits of retirement incomes with it.

So this is really a separate issue than the things that they're talking about removing funding from us.

Um I wanted to say about that position.

And hopefully that helps clarify a little bit.

Can you tell us the name of the department once again?

That Molly is community history, it's division within the library department.

Okay, she's done, like I said, incredible job on our own for many years, and for many years is something we've been wanting to provide for her.

And I just want to add like congratulations to Molly Moody on being a team from the state polymari um award.

Yes, I wasn't sure if I was allowed to say that or not.

She's given that award on Sunday the 17th.

Yes, but she's the adult winner for Hollywood.

He's coming.

We're just gonna see back.

No, no.

No.

I mean, I could go through this if you would like.

Um do we um do we like coordinate with like USC Soto World History Project?

Yeah, that is actually one of the projects that Molly would like to work on, isn't a joint archive with U and C.

Um, she just doesn't have the capacity right now, which is why we want to have some help.

So are you gonna do this why?

Or sat in my spot.

So um just keep going.

Library funding facts.

So the total budget for the library department is uh 4,297,000 and 174,000.

Um I would like to point out that this that this is a different number than Orange County is putting out there.

They are putting out a budget that's almost five million.

Um, and that includes community arch and culture, which is technically part of our department, but is is there they're different budgets that we can keep separate.

Um, and I missed that sometimes you can soft.

Yeah, I've got that one right sometimes.

Yeah, let's go new age.

Okay, I'll try.

Okay, so culture is a separate department.

So, oh okay, arts and culture is separate.

Yeah, so this number we're showing as our total budget removes community arts and culture from the equation, but they are not part of this.

Umrange County funding, currently they've been providing us just over 620K, which is 14.4 or 5% of that total budget.

Um, again, I would like to point out that they do not cover any of our full-time personnel costs or any of the associated benefits or anything like that.

And so when you get down to it, our our true operating budget number is in the 800k range.

It's 864,641 dollars.

Sorry.

Yeah.

Where's the difference there between the operating true off for you just tell us where that was?

Yeah, so our personnel budget, including all staff and insurance, is three million 432,533.

Okay, so you're just saying that.

Exactly.

The remainder is our operating costs, and that includes things like our collections, our programs, supplies, true operating costs.

Okay.

Okay.

And Orange County only contributes to operating.

Correct.

That's the agreement.

Is that your own?

Correct.

Okay.

So that's where that 72% budget number that you've seen coming around, that's where that comes from.

Chapel Hill does provide services to 64,000 Orange County residents who live in the town limits.

That's about 40% of Orange County total residents.

We are the most densely populated municipality.

Out of our active cardholders, we we separated them out.

And we have 14,813 who have active library cards with the town of Chapel Hill library, meaning they've used them within the last three years, and they don't live within the town limits.

So those are the ones who, if Orange County were to decide to eliminate or reduce our funding, unfortunately, we would probably need to charge them for access.

It's not so as a librarian that hurts my heart to say.

But that would probably be one of our first lines of defense and kind of making up those operational funds that we've lost.

Just one more?

Okay.

Okay.

So we do have a number of options that we've kind of worked out for making up the funding gap.

Of course, the first one I just mentioned is charging library card fees to out-of-town county residents.

So anybody who does not live within the town's jurisdiction would pay that out-of-area fee.

It's currently $65 a year.

That's what we charge non-residents.

So the potential is there if they all were to pay to make up that gap.

And I left those notes right there, Ted.

I'm sorry.

Thank you.

So the potential is there to make $962,845.

That would comfortably cover the gap.

However, a lot of people are not going to pay that fee.

I'm good.

You're good?

Okay.

Alright.

Okay.

So the next thing that we might look at.

I should say that we we're guessing maybe a third would pay.

Um, and that would get us to about half of that funding gap, and then we would have to figure out what to do with that extra $300,000.

Ideally, you know, we would hope that the town could make this whole.

I don't know where that money would come from, but it would buy us time just to gather information on how many people would be willing and able to pay the fee before we start doing more drastic things that would hurt poor people.

Um so if we do continue on down, we would be talking about out-of-area fees and adding service fees to other things that traditionally we don't.

Um would be charging for the meeting rooms, um, which we currently don't.

They're they're hugely popular, um, but that's one thing that we could do.

Would that be for everybody or just out of town?

It would probably there's room for for thinking this there a little bit.

This is just initial pass.

Um, we might be able to offer it for free to nonprofits to town, but to like pay the organizations that they would need to change.

But that's something we would need to think through, and again, we've come down to how much more revenue gap do we have.

And then we do charge for printing just a nominal fee so that people aren't printing out forest worth of things.

We would have to increase those fees as well.

And those those amounts don't get us a huge amount of money, but it reduces the gap to some, and we'd be looking at like 268K in gap.

The next thing we could do, again, it gets more painful, is start cutting collection budgets.

And this is a particularly difficult one because people often cite Chapel Hill.

The reason that they come here is because of our collections and how much we have.

But we talked about maybe doing a percentage of both the adult and the use materials, maybe 20 cent 20% of adults materials yielding about 20K savings, and then 10% of children's materials, which would be closer to 14 Canadian savings.

I will say we've done less in children's because children's circulation really drives our circulation out of children's books get checked out by huge staffs versus an adult might check out a novel or two.

But that impacts at this point, we're getting we're getting past just the most vulnerable populations being affected with service fees in Greece, and now we're getting to something that impacts everyone because they'll have less books and higher wait times for holds.

Yes, um, it is it is not we we get a pretty good main for a buck and we work through our vendors to get deals, but we also rely on our friends in the library to contribute some funds to the lessons.

It's a very, very, very high.

Yeah, we someone I saw wrote um in a letter that we punch above our weight, and I really feel that that's an accurate statement.

Um so that would get us lower.

We're we're looking at 234K at that point.

And then we get to to something that's particularly painful.

Um, and that is I mean, we talked about Orange County doesn't contribute to full-time staff and benefits and things like that, but we do have a little bit of discretion on our temporary salaries, which we call our part-time program support.

Um, and if we were to lay off part-time program support, either by a percentage or completely, um, we we might get pretty close to making up that gap, but that would have huge ramifications, not only for those individuals who lose their jobs, um, but it would also necessitate the closure in hours, most likely on Sunday, uh, possibly on Monday, because our part-time program support or the ones who really help us cover hours on weekends and even things.

Um, and once once we start cutting staff, you have to cut hours, and then we have reduced capacity for programming, and you really start to lose what makes Chapel Hill special and what makes people proud of Chapel Hill.

So those are kind of our funding options that we've come down to, and I've kind of walked you through, like I said, they get progressively dismal.

Um, the other option, and I know there's not an appetite to raise taxes, but um to cover that half funding that the the commissioners are talking about maybe providing in 27, it would take a 0.2 cent raise to cover that, which means in the year following when they completely eliminate funds, it would be a 0.4 cent raise in taxes that would cover it.

But then, of course, you get to tax equity issues, and that Chapel Hill residents are already paying for libraries in Chapel Hill and in Orange County, and then that would be an additional tax rate on top of that questions Elizabeth and Louie.

Um I think my question just gets back to kind of try and understand my email response, which is just like each one of these we still have gap, which means either we like find money out of couch cushions, or we reduce services.

So I think part of part of what I think can be the upside down.

Part of what I want to understand is what the reduction in services would look like at each of these levels because since we still have that gap, like do we close like three days a week or something if all we do is charge a library car feed out of county residents?

Or do you all have some creative ideas of your speech about how other ways that we make up that funding gap?

What are they?

Because to me, it just seems like major reduction of services, slider reductions, slider slider, slider still to reduction of services or raise taxes.

So I feel like we don't quite have the full picture of what each of these scenarios looks like in terms of library operations, um, unless you all have some clever ideas about having a gap that or on this slide.

I I will say I don't have any more creative ideas, and these options were worked on by library administration.

We consult with DMT who you know with Susan who is in comms and has a very detailed background in this, and these are the options that we felt made the most sense.

So if you guys have creative options, let me know.

I'm happy to hear them.

But I guess you I didn't necessarily mean you in the library staff, and then we're just like actually that more AD.

Um but um and these may completely be completely inappropriate, but things that um would it be possible to appropriate fund balance one year to cover the gap and then see the town's appetite to raise taxes to support the library operations?

Could we reappropriate some of the revenue surplus that we just voted to appropriate to other projects to the library for one year and then buy this?

I mean, like those are the couch cushions that I can think of that we could look at or other cases like that.

You are correct, and those are AP title questions.

Yeah, you can I'm happy to let your library seed back if you want to.

Um so I think Addis has done a great job of showing kind of the levers we can move.

And sure we can uh like go to the five-year plan where we showed where we want to do less fund balance appropriation, and we could just undo that, but that's that's sort of letting the county off the hook.

Well, yeah, well, that's my other question is like, is like how do we not let them off the hook?

Like what how do we I mean I think we need to put them on the hook, and I mean this is it's a bad decision.

Uh it makes no sense, it harms uh customers, and um you know they've kind of put us on the spot.

Uh I think we we look at these as dynamic choices, and we I don't think we commit to exactly what mix of this happens as we watch what happens with the with the out-of-town fee piece, and we see how that goes, and then we'll start to think about uh well do we could do some of these other little fees, the room fees, and see where we are, and then we we if we don't have the ability to flex in other ways, that's when we start going into having to do schedule adjustments.

But that you know before everything before that uh allows us to stay open and deliver mostly the same service set before we get to property tax.

So I think that's you know, these are the areas we work on.

We see how we we go if we if we have to start changing service, we can come back to council and say, you know, is that where you want to go?

Or we can't do that.

Of course, of course not, but that that we might have the ability to try to postpone until the next budget year, you know.

Um but we're gonna have to make some real choices along the way.

Um otherwise the county just sort of gets away with cutting us in a in a in a really dumb way, and and and then we just say, well, we're just gonna eat it, and our people are gonna pay for two library systems, yeah.

One good one and one that's um marginal.

Uh Louie Melissa, you need um I have two things.

Um you suggest that the new hire may help with the lay-off part-time spot hours or something, and we can creative things that can happen there.

Well, any time you have a full-time person, you you they have a you know 40 hours plus kind of window of service they can provide.

Um I'll I'll defer to Atlas's, you know.

Does that make up for two part-time or three part-time?

You know, but but she's got to make decisions about how how to how to do deliver that and it might be more comfortable to defer hiring somebody before you go and and lay off other people.

I mean, that doesn't feel very much.

Yeah, I mean hiring the full-time position would be helpful in that we can the staff assistance we've been providing to Molly from other divisions could be really facted in their divisions.

Um, but when I talk about reductions to part-time staff, we're not talking about one or two or three or four part-time people.

We're talking 20.

We're talking during the summer when we are the busiest and we need more 10 employees up to 26 if we were to if we were to eliminate all of them.

It's is a significant number, and that's where that reduction in hours and capacity for service in the program to really necessitate.

I guess that goes to my second point.

This seems like an opportunity for us to really engage the public.

Like right now, it feels like we're sitting in this room talking about this, and there's all types of disinformation building that gap.

It seems like there's time right, and I imagine we can get the engagement.

It seems like there's time to do that now these next two or three weeks to really engage the public.

I think it could also lead to pressure on the county if they feel like it's an interview turnout and talk like the.

I will say that our friends in the library have been advocating relentlessly on our so lucky to have our friends and our current president Karen Curtain.

Um they launched an advocacy campaign, and you can view the Orange County Commissioners in Box Live, and they have been flooded since their information went live on their website, and there were quite a few number of individuals at their budget public hearing last night speaking in support of the library.

So the the community is is aware and engaged.

I mean, just the step for we may have to make some trade-offs if the county stays with that budget.

So I'm thinking about engaging the community, not just the county, we don't want this, but the county may still go through with it.

Yeah.

And we may still have to go through some of these trade-offs, and that's when we talked about engagement community around each trade-offs.

Because like we're assuming the county's gonna step back, but they don't.

I'm not assuming they're gonna step back.

So if they're not gonna step back, we need to start thinking about these trade-offs.

And I would like to try to engage the broader community around these actual trade-offs.

And I think it should probably go past the friends of the library.

Like those are the most engaged people, and there's other people that need to be engaged in this process.

Well, I think just to know, and I don't disagree, but they've activated more than just the frontal library.

Like it's been out on neighborhood listservs, and you know, it's it's out in the limited media coverage that ever exists.

It's you know, it's out there, but I agree.

I think it's important.

Um Melissa, Amy, Elizabeth, and Wes.

I was just wondering whether we're going to know the county's final decision because if they have to meet it at June 30 and we're meeting at June 30, this makes it very difficult for us to plan unless they cave soon.

In the meeting last night that I watched, they said their role was to have it finalized by I believe June 16th.

Thank you.

Amy.

Um, so as painful as this will all be, um, I think it's really important for us to consider not adding uh extra staff position and using that money if we need to still getting it to the library, but using it to really help so you don't have to cut the core services in that.

Um if you know later on they come back to their senses, we can convert it to an FTE.

But I just think you know, if we're looking at cutting hours, if we're looking at cutting all these things, I'd really like that money to go to help only kids or that core service.

Um Elizabeth said it wasn't.

Yeah, to the full-time position.

It seems like probably the part-time staff because the Sunday hours being most likely reduced.

And I'm curious to know about patronage, like what piece you said, like use part-time staff that makes sense to me, you know, like summer employees are a part-time not salary position, etc.

Um, and it does seem like that probably win that how it coincides with P library usage as well, like the part-time hours library hours.

Yes, um, our weekend hours are some of our busiest days of the week.

Um, we would not want to, even though part-time program support help us most meetings, something because we would not want to remove all of our weekend hours that would just not be fair to working parents and families and individuals.

Um, and and if you were to look for some of our I hate to say least business days because we're always busy, um, but there is there is an argument for Monday, which is why if we had to close two days, we would look at maybe Sunday and a one day, and still keep our Saturday hours and our our other evening hours.

I think it's that also in terms of whether or not I'm a full-time employee or part-time, you know, like if you have to spare one or the other, it makes sense to me maybe to hang on to the part-time employees who cover the high-peak hours for the moment at least.

It's much so.

Like I said, the the town takes care of our full-time employees and their benefits, so when it comes to within our budget line, so we have the discretion to really do is with the temporary salaries, and then Amy or Ted did correct me if I if I misunderstanding on that.

But that comes out meaning like that would be out of the same so the parts of the employees are not out of the personnel part of the budget, they're out of the operating as possible budget.

Do you want to crack at that?

I mean I'm not I can't speak to the agreement with Orange County.

I mean, it is all one large budget in the grant scheme of things, and it gets really difficult to say what is directly associated.

I mean, I think the discretion when it comes to program support is that they don't have set hours, they're not benefited, so it's a whole different thing when we look at our full-time employees and the commitment we've made to that employee versus a program support employee who you know wants, especially the ones I know the library has some who've been very dedicated to the town and have worked with us for years, so we don't want to act like they are not important, but it's a little bit easier to address those employees and monitor the number of hours we work with those employees.

The only other thing I would say to to touch back to your first point is related to creative solutions in terms of fund balance and all that.

I mean, my recommendation would be obviously all of this.

It would have been wonderful to know this as we were developing the budgets, and different decisions could have been made as we were crafting the entirety of the budget.

Okay, we're not there at this point, so we can't do anything about that.

But I would say that the the easy easiest thing to do would be to keep the funding allocation as a stance in the budget, and know that we are going to offset that loss by some amount of out-of-county fee if if council agrees to move forward with that fee, um, and it would give us time to know how much revenue will actually be made up by the fee, and then we could pivot.

We could hold we could keep the um library uh associate in the budget, not fill it, so the monies would be savings, um, but we would keep it in the budget, and it would give us the time to know what the actual gap is because again, what we're facing in this current year's budget is half of the total because the county is doing this over two years, and so it's about 320,000, so it gives us a little bit of time to figure things out, and then uh we would have to plan for the other half as we think about next year's budgets.

That's helpful.

Um, then meal.

Okay.

Um question, comment, and then potentially request.

Question is these options they pertain to our current budget that we're talking about, or is this something so if the county makes a decision we'll have to figure something out by June 30?

Yes.

Yes.

Okay.

Um I would like to see this on a work session later.

Um I really want to stand beside all of the people out there advocating and not even talk about what we're gonna do to cover up the fact that the county's not funding this library.

Um you said it's a it will it's what makes Shop Hill special, it's what makes us proud, it's what makes the county special, what makes the county proud.

What makes the county proud?

We need to be talking that way in the fact that I don't know why they're not clamoring to make this library part of their county system.

I don't know why.

This library should be a star for anybody's county system in the state or in the country.

I mean, the library is more than books, it's a place where people come and be safe.

The programs we hear are top notch.

Uh we're we're helping people find a place and get resources during the day.

It's really really tough for me to see how this library can be seen as just a resource for people in Chapel Hill.

Um I don't want to talk about the Drake Firm, but I do want to say that it's a complex, it's municipal services center, of which a library is a very small part.

We are a library.

Comparing the library to municipal services center is not fair, accurate, or helpful.

Um my request to us is to say, we're not going to talk about all this stuff.

We're going to continue to advocate with the county to make sure that this place gets funded fully.

We'll come back to this in later May or early June.

Because I don't want to let them know that they're off the food at all.

And I don't want to talk about any of this because it signals that we're even considering it.

I'm worked up, but I'm here in this building, and I really care about this, and I think we should stand strong until the county makes their decision, and let's hope that they make the right decision and continue funding this library.

We talk about these ideas once the advocacy is exhausted.

So thank you.

What we've worked up with Atlas here, this is that staff side not advocating really that sort of technical information.

I think that we can get you all some more advocacy messages should you like because there are some other ways to spin this, but I think as we worked on this, this was very much staff can't be seen as advocating, so we've um activated the friends, but I think we could get you some of uh some of those other messages.

And frankly, I was hopeful that we might get some feedback from last night's county budget meeting that showed that that was maybe something that the commissioners would be thinking about and might not make it through to the final, but it doesn't seem like that they uh are or any of that correctly.

Okay, can I add one more thing, look like one of the things I hear is this historical arrangement, this historical picture.

Look, we didn't know we'd have a federal government the way we have it now, let alone twice.

We didn't know we have a state government we have now.

I'm not particularly compelled by this idea of we're working through arrangements in the past, that the world is different now, the world, the future is uncertain.

So that argument to me is also a little bit um uh uh short-sighted.

So I think that's one of the things I keep hearing, and it's one of those where I say, let's look at the world now, look to the world in the future, and look at look at what's best for Orange County.

And this library is the best for which can I add one thing?

Uh just amend something with that was noted about uh when a decision needs to be made.

So, yes, a decision needs to be made by June 30, but I would just caution as we don't know when this county issue might be resolved, and that might not be until June 17th, whatever date they adopted a budget.

F 16th, thank you.

Um I would just say we could proceed with our budget as is and know that there are internal things we could do to make up all of these adjustments except for the last one, which is the property tax increase.

So that's the only thing we couldn't amend after the fact.

But we could make any of these adjustments, we could look at a fee, we could we could talk about any of these things after the budget is adopted, hold the position, all these things and still move forward with the budget as is, and I just cautioned just based on the timeline that we're looking at that we just want to make sure that's June 30.

Jump right on there say we are not in any way advocating that we wait for adopting the whole budget until the county decides what to do on the library.

These are our contingencies, and we ought to proceed to adopt a budget on the schedule that we've set, but what we do want to know is is the council comfortable should the county choose to do what they're proposing and us going ahead right away and saying, fine, then July 1st will implement uh non-town resident fees, and we'll probably have to tweak some of these other fees, we'll see what that yields, and then we'll start to look at how can we um you know uh delay certain things like how to make a position and then possibly have to look at service adjustments down the road after we see what the other choices we may uh do and whether we see if there's any doctracking uh Camille?

Thank you.

Let me understand something.

So the staff cannot advocate to the county.

You couldn't go to and talk about the impact or what would happen.

I mean, if the if the town council uh directs me to go uh speak to the county, I'll I'll do it.

I'm following up on something that Susan said, right?

You just said the staff can't advocate and so I'm gonna understand that.

So my uh meaning there is is that generally speaking, the staff's role isn't to go out and advocate an issue, it's to explain the issue.

But council, once council has given direction that there is a council, you know, like direction, then the staff can message on behalf of the council.

Excellent.

Okay.

So here's some messaging that I I want to say.

I'm really appreciative of everyone here at this table because I know we all care about this library and not just the physical building structure, but the library is the third place, and everyone knows how I feel about third places.

You can come across anybody here, and let's talk about coming across anybody here.

This place is a place of respite.

When people cannot find shelter during the day, they come here.

Atlas, you and your team came before us the last budget cycle and said, don't forget about your other frontline people.

We are frontline, um, and this library is an equalizer.

How many of us come and use, and I'm not talking about just in this room, use these services to help us and our children learn full stop, and to use the word robust for a space that I go into weekly because I'm a radio show in the comp in the complex.

That the portion that holds books is so sparse, and so to use the word robust just is mind-boggling, and how our colleagues can consider cutting this resource to the county and to this community at large off is completely mind-boggling.

So I would like for us to empower our staff, especially our manager, to advocate of what yeah, we can talk about this, but we can also talk about the cost that they are going to levy by implementing what the manager, the county manager has proposed.

Harris?

Yeah, I want to um continue the passion list that you have shown.

Camille, thank you for the comments that you made, and I want to really speak to the people who run this library.

Librarians are the I see your cake girl for when it no, seriously, they well, we talk about um what the county provides in terms of social services, we know what you all do every single day for our community, and in terms of their spaces, our libraries really are places and spaces for people from the cradle to the grave.

All of our community comes through this through these doors.

Um programming, and I can't tell you in any given week I can be in the library.

Um talk about robust programming that our community members bring that the level of the education that I've gotten.

I recall when my son was born, like story time, and I really need that, you know, from birth, you know, to you know, our elders in this space.

And when I look at this, and when we look at this, poor working class people are going to be impacted first and foremost, period.

And so I'm really disappointed that the county is not looking at what Chapel Hill is bringing, not only to residents who live within our city proper, but to all of the county and all of the state of North Carolina.

Um, so um, I hope our community will continue to email them, get their three minutes before them, and let them know that this move is unacceptable.

We are all to them with budget constraints, um, we are seeing a failure at the federal level and the state level.

I understand the challenges that all of us are facing in terms of like dealing with the budget, um, but we also have to understand what these impacts really have on our community and how we stand together for the future, like you were talking about with that we're not shooting ourselves in the foot.

So while we have to, as they say, you know, tie your family.

Um that's why we brought these options before us, um, but we're not done with that basically yet.

Louis, yeah, I appreciate my colleagues' passion, but I think you're responsible for not to talk about trade-offs of public because the county is gonna do.

So if they don't include this year, I don't see the economy forecasting a bit of next year.

This is eventually gonna happen.

So if it's gonna happen, I think we should include the public in that discussion.

So I'm not gonna go through the advocacy, but this is like a big enough thing where we can engage the public.

Okay, I think we should do it, and like we can do both things, but just assuming where we did the county is changing your mind, I don't think we are asked.

Well, I think there's also the idea of like timing and also engaging people in all sorts of ways so they're aware of this potential change, right?

And then I think there's also ways to engage the public, should we have to make these choices, and this can also be part of these are what you're losing out on if this happens, but I I think I think there has to be some like nuance to that engagement, which is not just that oh well you choose these because this is happening, because I think that's not where we are yet, right?

So I think I think that both that both things can be true at the same time.

Um I was on the task force um for equitable library funding when um when the county decided to to build um the their southern branch library, and um we've been operating an amazing library for all of the residents of the county, but also there was no southern branch library, it didn't exist, so this was the only library for this entire most populated part of the county, and so I feel that we've been doing a service to the county in operating this library and only charging them $600,000, which has not gone up at all with inflation, which has not increased despite the incredible increases in the cost to operate this library, and it was never ever talked about in that task force that there would ever be such a such a concept as cutting the funding, it was actually the request was to increase the funding so that the libraries were treated equitably instead of this one serving the most people and being in the most populated part of the county because we are county residents.

I I don't know why that continues to be so hard, but this was us, I think, going beyond as usual our obligations in providing services, and this is something that matters to people here, but it was never once discussed.

So there have been a lot of um I think misperceptions and misunderstandings about what has ever been discussed or where this is coming from, um but we generate the most taxes for the county, they get the biggest proportion of all taxes that are brought in through all the economic development and other things we do, and um, and then we're providing a library in a place where there was none, a new library was proposed next door to this amazing library, and I had my concerns at the time, but as long as there was an agreement that they were gonna figure out how they were gonna fund that and not cut here, I said, well, go ahead.

And I had my concerns at the time, but as long as there was an agreement that they were going to figure out how they were going to fund that and not cut here, I said, well, go ahead.

I don't understand why you're doing it.

And I don't understand why that is the priority among so many other competing priorities at the county level, but that's your choice.

And I am not elected to be on that board, so I'm not going to mess with you all in your decisions.

But if at that time of building the Carborough Library, Carberro residents had known that it would mean that this library would be cut.

I've heard from Harborough residents as well that they would have never wanted that to be their library.

That they would have never wanted to lose free access to this library.

So I think the public and our board and our staff would have engaged much differently at the time that these enormous decisions were being made had that been transparent and on the table.

So I have not only a problem with this decision because of what it means to this community at a time no less when there is of all the crazy things.

I mean, there's damn book banning going on, and our superintendent of schools is being dragged down to Raleigh to complain about books, and we're gonna limit access to people of this county who use this library so regularly.

Not to mention that I have been at how many story times and my kids love to come here and all those things, but also it's just the context is crazy.

The number of kids that walk here from school because school doesn't go until when parents get home, and so the number of kids who use this place as after school as free after school is stunning, and they all walk by my house, and it's an amazing place for them.

It's just providing beyond what one could even you know convey in one meeting.

So I have a lot of heartburn about this.

I have tried to talk to a few commissioners, and I'm not very hopeful at the moment that we're making progress on changing minds, and that people have some very unusual ideas of why and how this came about, but this is also putting that amount of cost on people who still want to use this library when it would cost about four dollars per county resident to keep this funding makes no sense to me as a way to balance a $15 million deficit, of which I would point to decisions made about capital that doesn't make sense in the first place, but that should not be taken out on Chapel Hill, given all that we also I think contribute to the county.

So that is mybe not very um articulate way of saying that.

I do think that it's very important for all of us to be advocating.

I also I really feel like now is not the time that we should be doing this to our partners.

Um we do need to have a united front given this environment, and I don't think that doing this to Chapel Hill in this way is what I expect of good partners right now.

Um I don't want to make these decisions because I don't want us to be pre-deciding that we're just gonna do anything.

I mean, you know, I but I do feel like there I personally would want to understand more about all of our agreements, not just this one, and really be level setting about how we partner with the county and being clear also on how much Chapel Hill contributes to the wealth of this county and how much we get back because I'm okay with it not being that look we are a progressive community, the urban area should support the rural areas, but we should also get basic gains like marginal support for a library that we've been operating ourselves with very little support for a long time when there was no other library.

So I asked the question.

I mean, you made some very good points there.

Um at what point and where is it documented?

Where is it written?

Where?

Because it was said like we knew, no, we didn't know that when drapes were gonna be built that this was coming, and so I want to see that in writing.

I want to see where that was communicated, and if it's not, then that has to stop being said.

And all the points that you made were very um poignant and very articulate.

Thank you.

I don't, I don't believe, I know that it was never communicated publicly.

I have heard lore that there were commissioners back in 2011, you know, way back in the day who had an idea that we shouldn't be funding the chapel of the library, but those people are not in office anymore, and that was never a board decision.

That was one person having an idea, and we all know that that's not how we govern.

And so if that was actually the intention, then that would have been communicated to Susan Brown, our library director at the time.

It would have been communicated to the elected officials, it would have been communicated to the town manager.

There was nothing.

And so, yes, unless someone can show me where we were notified of any such thing, I agree with you.

There is no case to be made that this was always decided, or that just because if we fit it off this year, it'll come back next year.

I don't think that should ever be the case.

And I think that operating an amazing facility like this when the county has a library system and we're doing it for them for a great price, a bargain basement price.

I don't think that this should continue to have to be a conversation each year or ever again.

And I frankly cannot believe that we didn't raise the amount in past.

That was the whole purpose was that it was so marginal that we were advocating for it to be increased.

That was only ever in the conversation that ever happened, and I was in the room, so I know that that is the case.

I may have a really crappy memory, but that I remember.

Yeah.

Go for it.

I was just gonna say if I can interject uh the 2023 library task force final report was included in your packet, and it does show the increase and funding that was agreed upon.

Um, by the entire task force, including representatives from Hillsborough, Carborough, Orange County.

I mean, it was everybody.

So we just can't claim that this was ever telegraphed in any way because it was always underfunded.

And trying to pull back and do some sort of austerity budget because of things that are happening at other levels of government is not going to make our community better.

And quite frankly, I think investing in more economic development, so there's more sustainability over time, like investing in more things is how people get out of recessions.

They don't cut things like this.

It makes no sense.

So I would like to for us to move to the what's next for this.

And I really would like for us to recommend or to ask our manager to go speak before it.

I know, but I just want to.

No, no, you want to like get the what is it?

I mean, we all are we all are fired up, right?

We all care about this, and I just want us to be like, yeah, yes, we want this to happen.

Could you all give us a recommendation of options that you think would be effective in terms of what staff could do at this point that you have not felt directed to do as of yet?

Well, we can play the advocacy role to the extent that it exists up until budget adoption, so um that's communicating on whatever levels we have, appearing at whatever uh forums exist.

Um they just had their budget public hearing, so that's sort of off the table, but um, do you have another one on May 20th in the chapel?

We can show up in that list.

All right, at least you have better telling me free from proposed.

So is there anything else that you can think of that could or should happen?

And and maybe it's also telling us things that that we can do or that you think would be most effective.

Because I did plan to talk with our colleagues who are on that governing body, and I would love some good information that I know that you sent us some, but some really succinct talking points.

We can build the build the case along the lines of what's been said here, they were getting a deal, nobody ever thought they were gonna cut as a replacement for the Drakeford funding, whatever, reference to report.

Message all those points, and then we can you know spend some time in the media, uh spent some time in letters and broadcasts out to our folks and all action.

And what do you need from us?

I mean, we'll do anyway, obviously.

But I think as it so we'll work that, but as it relates to the decision making of the budget, um we think that what we've laid out for you is proceed with the budget as shown, assume the county revenue continues, knowing if it doesn't that we have a range of things that we will deploy in a phased way, and then we'll keep you informed if we need to do something to make up a gap.

Uh we won't do it precipitously, it will be through engagement with you, but we're really just trying to sort of see what the revenue options do first, because as that was said, if everybody paid their fee, then it then we've got to do that.

Then you're more than you started with.

Yeah, so um, so that we need to kind of know what that's gonna look like.

It would it be appropriate to for the town to do some broad messaging to the public to kind of inform them that this is happening, because I'm pretty sure most of them don't know and just in advance of that.

I mean, that's certainly something we can all do too.

Are there also is there like a way that we I mean I don't need it to be a mayor's message, but if it makes more sense for it to be a mayor's message, because that's sometimes where we can do a little bit more than staff can do, but if y'all can help with that, then yeah, and it's gotten quite a bit of media coverage.

I mean, this is in the Indy and NO Chapel Borough everywhere, so um, I think we've got that covered, but okay.

But filling in those stacks, like the mayor's message and some of these talking points that I think we can do.

I'm just saying that if anything that feels like it it's beyond what the staff can do, then we can you can like and I think the messaging too, they can include some of what Louis try to get at as well, like you know, yeah.

Um if this happens, these are the things we would have to do.

Yeah, this is what we would have to do, and these are the options put forward.

Um I think that would be really helpful.

So this is a campaign, right?

This is a campaign, and we need to the way that we campaign for our office, we need to campaign, we need to communicate.

I'm talking about each of us needs to be able to communicate, so once we get that information.

And also just keep in mind that like care, you know, the friends are doing they started it, so I think we can help, but I wouldn't unnecessarily just rep, like I wouldn't start over, is all I'm saying.

No, what I'm saying is that we should mobilize and talk with our community members and sit down with them, have a conversation.

We all know where I am daily, right?

And I go to other places too.

But your new bar isn't open again, so it is.

Yeah.

I would for the software.

But anyway, uh I'm I'm being serious.

I think that we need to because while the media, the social media is activated, not everybody is on there, and not everybody sees it.

So I'm just appealing to each of us to have to do that.

Yep.

One one uh the reason I'm I want as a topic is the fact that the forest county is responsible for that services and how much social services done here.

Yes, it makes completely an absolute bargain.

It is.

And so and Chapel Hill is you know, does it more than their closed session?

I'll just say you remember.

Well, can I just get too well?

I wanna um I don't think we need to beat it to death, but if we can just do our wrap-up questions just to make sure we're not missing something because we'll then come back.

So I want to make sure that we're giving very clear guidance to um to the staff.

So um number one, does anyone have further questions about how the recommended budget advances our strategic bills and priorities?

I guess I don't have any questions.

I just have a statement that I think that this is a fiscal sustainability budget quite.

And um, I don't have a problem with that, but I think that it addresses our priorities money, and yet I don't have a problem with that.

I think it's something that we've needed to do, but just to recognize that's what we're doing this year.

Maybe next year there'll be room to hit some of the priorities for okay.

Um are there any gaps, concerns, or unmet needs that you'd like staff to further evaluate.

I think for me, um, just looking at our um our budgeting as pertains to just oil housing and just public housing.

I want to get a sense of like what we are probably in there.

I just need to explain this to me, like um like the two euro um federal hub.

Like I just want to get a real sense of like what tax levy money are going into both our order housing but also um our public housing at this time.

So was talking yesterday and corporation for this meeting, so bear with me because I have to the STs I have not been there.

Deputy Town Manager.

Yeah, set the SDC.

Not been uh I will this week uh go, but I am curious in how I would like more information about how we are where we are with that with our folks who are there, how long do we anticipate them being there?

No, I'm not talking about the displaced, I'm talking about that being a housing place.

It's in a floodplain.

And um that has contributed to the potholes reopening.

Has it been I will go see if it's been it's been fixed, but I'm curious about those streets, if it's been patched, or if it's been repaved, and then beyond that what are long-term plans for that public housing.

I know we're talking about this year, but we've been talking about the space on whatever the tour that we took.

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

And that was several years ago.

So I I would like more information on what are we planning to do with some studies?

Public housing.

Yeah, I think that falls right in squarely into our repositioning plan.

Um you're gonna have to make some uh choices about what what do we keep, what do we sell, what do we redevelopment redevelopment, what all that and how uh we could do it, we can do it with partners, we could uh have private sector do it, and we gotta kind of go through all the program options and develop point.

Okay, please.

Okay, uh number three.

Uh Paris, I heard you would like additional information on uh local money going towards housing.

Is that okay, yeah, public housing and just board of housing?

Uh-huh.

Any other um information or analysis before next meeting, knowing it's not a lot of time to do heavy analysis, but yeah, yeah.

Um I'd like to hear a little bit more about the economic development position.

We come back with that.

I don't like general feeling is everybody's fine with the transit um the vehicle maintenance person.

I don't think there's any issue about that.

I would like to look a little bit more about the economic development position.

Okay.

Um anything else?

Okay.

Uh we don't know.

Yes, just uh along with that, a little bit of the ROI decisions.

What we what we like that what's our thank you.

Okay, um and then the energy of uh efficiency we invest with I'm sorry, I didn't get the first part of your statement return of the oh return on investment of of the new options, economic development.

Okay, I think that fits within the full sort of bucket of what what would their insurance goals be, what do we hope to achieve, how do we hope to do it and accommodate the other ROI was on our uh our um uh climate action work on the possibility of reinplastic savings and how we do that um so we currently have two dates set aside on the calendar for additional budget work sessions um May 27th and June 3rd based on today's conversation.

What's your sense about using one or both of those dates for further discussion?

Well I say schedule both, and then if we can release it, we release it.

Well, we're already scheduled.

I mean they're already scheduled.

I don't think we need to release one.

Well, I think that is fine if that's the group's desire.

I think the opinion.

I think we need 27.

Are we just gonna be talking to each other again?

Yeah, we talked about the are we good?

Are we gonna try to get more people to know public to be part of the code?

Yeah, I'm wondering.

I don't mean that's a work session.

Public hearing is at the next meeting.

So we get feedback at the next meeting next week from the public, and then we have a week where we can discuss what we get from these guys the additional information and um the feedback that we got from the public.

Was how I see it.

And I do believe she just left, but Paris had a conflict on the 27th, right?

That's correct.

She might prefer the third.

So she might prefer the third, and that's that doesn't mean that I'm just asking if people have a third.

I don't have to do that.

You have a comment on the I think it was already scheduled.

Um they're both already scheduled, so it shouldn't be not on your calendar.

Is there a preference?

I'd prefer the 27th.

But that's not um I think that here's how maybe we can think about it is if we have a ton that we need to still work through, then we probably need to keep both work sessions.

If you feel like we're kind of honing in on it, then I think we can probably release at least one.

I don't think we should release one.

I think I think we're pretty much there's a few small issues, but I think on the big picture.

I wasn't hearing anybody say I'm not comfortable with this direction.

Yeah.

We okay.

I gotta say that do this.

Um in the work sessions.

We had a work session once before where you were like we're not at that point yet, but how about we not do that portion of the meeting?

I'd like for us to give every full go.

We keep them on the calendar as they are already scheduled, and then if we don't need it, then we don't need it.

But I don't want to release it in advance, and then we may need it, folks.

Look how long we talked to them.

Well that's but there are a lot I don't think there are a lot of question marks left.

Yeah, so it also well I I will tell you that it then staff wanted to know, so that's why I'm asking you.

Um I'm not trying to manipulate you, but I did not say that, but thank you.

You're welcome.

Um but I think generally it is nice for us and the public and our staff if we just think we're not gonna need it.

Now, if you all want to keep both, that's fine.

I'm sure you know we can do that.

It's just if we're gonna fill two more work sessions with conversation, we're not.

And some of this is not going, I mean, there are plenty we can ask questions about, but if it's not gonna really inform our decisions on the budget, then you know that is what happens.

Okay, so here's what I would like to propose.

Because one of the things that I've heard tonight is we want community engagement.

I would like to propose that we do not diminish the time of individuals to comment on the budget.

This will be the only time that they will be able to comment since the manager's release.

Right?

Maybe maybe just a second.

But I don't want to reduce it.

They don't comment at work session session.

No, I'm not talking about a work session.

I'm talking about I want a robust robust engagement at our meeting, at our next meeting.

I do not want if we've got 14, 15 people, I don't want them to go down to two minutes.

If we are serious about getting engaged with the public, I don't want their time at the microphone to be reduced to two minutes or less.

So we have a policy around public.

I think we can pass that.

That is not the question at the moment.

I know, I'm arguing right now.

I would like your opinion on whether you the work session.

Do we do you think we need both to additional budget?

Oh, so the 27th is a religious holiday for me.

I already mentioned.

So um that's a no for me.

But we could release that with it and be on just I think the majority of us are okay with that one.

That's what I'm here.

So council, are you okay with releasing the 27th and keeping the third just in case?

Yes.

Okay.

Um about the other proposal that I just made, which is not to reduce people's time at the microphone in response to the budget.

I don't think people speak it at the microphone as community engagement.

I think I I think I just have a different perception of how the meeting engagement works.

I see that.

Yeah, I don't see people coming out and make the statement or I'll be as a meeting engagement.

I think you're going out to their meetings, talking about the budget and a media meeting where we are.

I see that as engagement.

I feel like nothing without well, I'm not agnostic about it.

So here's I do want us to engage with the public, but I also want the public.

I don't think that's you will without a lot of feedback already.

Nobody can comment on the budget.

And I know the nobody's might be a solution in terms of the problem.

I would be with council.

I'll agree.

Yeah.

That we should what?

Let everybody know.

Why is nobody's gonna come?

Thank you.

Well, okay, but then every single time we're gonna reversate the budget.

We are every single time we're going to relitigate whether we should change should change the time.

And that is about protecting our staff's time, also the rest of the public's time, and the fact that we um we used to go till two in the morning sometimes, and that's not healthy for anybody, and it didn't help us make better decisions.

Yeah, so that's why we decided to have very plenty of time, but at some point, and also so we can hear from more people, but I know people don't like it.

There's also uh a reasonableness of how much we can learn by hearing from the same the same thing.

That's that's what it's trying to figure out, and we still need to rewrite our procedures manual, so I'm happy to discuss it then, but I don't want I prefer not to make a one-off choice about changing how we do that, because then in the next time people will say, Well, why did you do that last meeting and then not this meeting?

So I think remaining consistent is the way to be.

I understand um you know whatever.

Um but as you say, we we do have multiple ways for our community to uh you know give us back.

But I hope each and every one of us does engage with the public.

Each and every one of us.

Okay.

So I'm hearing um that we will leave the third as an option.

Um the last question, and I'm just wondering if you all have ideas that if you have directions you're thinking about the three staff positions, is it helpful um for y'all to know to get a temperature read on people on the staff positions?

Yes?

You're nodding, but I don't know if you're actually agreeing with me.

Yeah, I mean if there's if there's significant opposition to the positions such that you might want to vote to strike them out, we would prefer to know that now.

Yeah, here's the team.

And I don't have a sense of that.

Here's what I think you I heard was fund the fleet position for sure.

Yes, uh, fund both the economic development and the library position, but do not hire them until we see one on the economic development position, uh, a sort of business case for what they're gonna do, how they're gonna do it, what the goals are, and we wait and see how the uh research bureau shakes out, and then if we're convinced that maybe they can do that work better or differently, then maybe we wouldn't hire the position, but uh you know, let's give it some time and see, and then we might hire that position sort of mid-year if you're happy with the the missions and the the metrics, and we don't think that we're getting any traction with the visitors bureau.

That's kind of what I heard.

I have a slightly different perspective, but I but I don't speak for the council on this.

Um I think we should do a strategic plan or a strategy before hiring the position only because and I think it's a good idea to hire the position.

I I think it's a good idea for there to be another position and for us to generally do this work.

However, I don't without the economic development, and um I think without a strategic plan, I don't know that we're exactly listing the position with all the competencies or capabilities that we are sure that the council wants.

I guess that's my perspective, but I I can't imagine that it would be like not used, or that it would be a bad position I if I wasn't um entirely clear.

I don't think I'm that far aligned with trying to say what you were saying.

I think maybe that it's just the degree of like is it a full strategic plan, or is it coming back to council and saying here's kind of the metrics, the mission, the the goals.

You know, I've slightly different versions of the same.

But are you talking about in position, like what the position will do?

I don't think we were hiring a position until we came back with you and told you what the goals of the position would be, how they're gonna do what they're gonna do.

Right, and I think I'm saying something slightly different, which is without a strict strategy for the department, I feel like for the department, I don't know that this is the exact then what you would describe would be exactly the thing that that the council would want, but I don't think it would be not useful, or that it would be a bad hire.

I just don't like I don't without council and giving direction on the strategy, the long-range strategy of the department, all we have is what we had from the pandemic.

That's our that's our strategic plan before that it was way outdated.

From my understanding, I asked the state um it was clear to me and communicated to me and understanding that what they were presenting to us was a strategic plans, and so in terms of these three hires, um but it wasn't I'm I'm saying what I heard and what I felt was communicated to me that that was the truth strategic plan.

And so um I'm not interested in like the hire being contingent upon a strategic plan.

I'm I just want to I'm fine with the hire, period.

I want to communicate that I'm fine with all three.

I just want information on um, you know, what was what was the thought possible behind you know whatever they're gonna do and the added in a fit and all of that stuff.

I just want to know that clarity for myself, and that was satisfied, but I'm fine with the the three hires.

I decided so I think that when we had the update from David, it was to me it represented a policy change that was presented to us as a fact, not as a we think these are the reasons we think that you should do it, that is council good with this direction, or do we need to talk about what our economic development policy should be?

So for me, the whole shifting to the destination approach again for a long time that was all done at the county level, that was all district bureau stuff.

Um I'm not saying it's not the right decision or the wrong decision, it's just the decision that I a policy decision I think it's involved in.

So I think it's I think maybe maybe we're making it coming from and if council has a discussion and says, you know what, we think that the that for some way that our economic development should be more focused on recruiting business and doing that kind of thing and recruiting developers would want to really be working on implementing this whole big system we have and not so much strictly on destination work, then that hire doesn't make sense.

I don't think it's being positioned as an higher work.

I think they're um complimentary, like both recruiting businesses and destination.

It doesn't seem to be talked about this in the last presentation.

I feel very strongly that those two are two parts of a whole necessary to each other.

Yeah, and I think it belongs in economic development.

And given the time, I don't we don't need to talk about the policy about it right now.

I would love the opportunity to have that discussion.

I think if it goes anywhere it belongs in economic development.

I'm not just talking, but you're still thinking about but given the lateness of the hour, I think we can continue thinking, but coming back with more information, I think would be very helpful just on how you see that position, and then Jess, I'd take your I'm so sorry, I had to step away quickly and then my brain took a pause as well.

Um I don't think that we need a I don't think we need a um strategic plan for that department before we decide whether or not we want to make this hire.

I think that a professional would be able to pivot and compliment in that.

I think that's a lot of work to do before we make that higher, and if we have that need, if we decide that we have that need, then we go ahead and invest in that need.

Um then that's a really small group that that department, and if we need to reinforce and they say we see a way forward uh that can be complimentary, I think that would go with it.

So we just need more information, I think, at the next meeting about that, about the benefits, the additives, and um and then what the trade-offs would be if we did not have those.

I really appreciate the roles.

Um everything that you've presented to us tonight.

We clearly are fired up and very much appreciate that you are presenting us so many.

I've heard from another elected official in a nearby municipality who said impressive what's your team.

All the ways that all the things that they're trying to do and not raise taxes.

Um it's not going uninteresting.

We really appreciate it.

Thank you.

I mean where I sit right now very much with the mayor on this idea of a strategic plan for account development.

I don't think it's it's what that is or what it will do is captured correctly or communicated correctly right now.

So I think I I'm going to table that and go with your understanding that uh next meeting we could hear more about um some of the higher level strategic ideas with this position, and then um I will do my best in the upcoming year or months to really better shape this case for what I mean by strategic plan with economic development and have that conversation the other day.

So I'm sliding with your analysis of what where we're at on the air.

Thank you.

I think I guess we're going around.

I I'm probably I'm in support of the position, and I support the other two positions.

So I am hearing support for all three.

Yes, because the library is the last question.

Okay.

So I think there's council support for all three positions as of now, and and there's a request for additional information on the strategic priorities or positioning of the like economic development position.

Um I think we've already answered how would you like to proceed with the library funding unless you need more on that one.

Um I think generally I did hear council support for engaging counsel on a on a CIP, but that's not before the budget.

Um that um we're looking for alternatives to just raising taxes for upcoming that we'd like to evaluate our programs and services.

Um we'd like to engage with the public early, um, have comms on what's going on in our departments outside of the budget cycle, and that um macro level analysis on sustainability, some way to um do some sort of analysis on recirculating funding.

I think it was more about first longer term, you know, what are we doing?

Oh, we're gonna go with a financial yeah, thank you.

No, no, it's me.

Um does that sound right to council?

Is that reasonable?

Yeah.

Okay.

Um so do we have a motion?

Okay, can I get clarification?

Did we agree on the date of the next work session?

Was it June 33rd?

And so our next meeting is our public hearing next week, Wednesday on the 20th.

Won't be meeting on the 27th.

Correct.

We'll be meeting on June 3rd.

We'll try to bring as much information as we can from what we learned.

You're oh okay.

I think we were thinking June 3rd was if we needed it, but are you saying that you're bringing back information?

That's what I'm trying to understand for sure.

I mean, we should I think we we will debrief on everything that's been discussed today and attempt to bring as much back as we can for the public hearing uh so that you have whatever information you need to determine if we need the work session on the third that's a point staff okay.

Okay, so we're going to have a meeting on a date that one of our one of our colleagues cannot meet, and we are okay with we the 27th we are or we are not.

Okay, I just need a clear thing.

Okay, thank you.

All right.

So I move, thank you for helping me.

I move that we go into closed session under North Carolina General Statute GS 14-138.1185.

Moved by Pro Temberry technique I Melissa.

All those in favor, please say aye.

Any opposed, please say nay.

Motion is unanimous.

We will recess the public hearing in the first time.

Or we can kick everybody out.