Meeting for the China City Council March 17th, 2026.

Can I get a motion on our minutes from the third of March, please?

So move.

Second.

Okay.

We are going to let the minutes stand without objection.

Thanks, everybody.

Okay, we have a lot of council business to work on today.

So let's go ahead and start with Phil giving us some updates on special exceptions permits, what our options are here.

Looks like you've got some things to pack out.

I do.

Karen has been very nice about making copies for everyone here.

Thank you.

What types of things she thought would be something for us to discuss here regarding the strategic planning aspect of liquor stores.

And y'all last time around were saying that you might want to deal with some other items here that are not necessarily special exceptions, but things that you might want to consider that the planning agency would bring to you as opposed to just making a decision itself.

So we were trying to make sure at least there is a requirement in a uh just a setting that we had for locations in the city for liquor stores to have uh some type of action by the council.

But that's really the only reference that there was in the code.

This uh handout that I've given you is what was looked at in connection with uh the one I guess uh case that you had before you last week here, and these are the types of items that were included on that list.

And I guess the question becomes uh do you need to have uh any other uh items that you're gonna look for in an area regarding a liquor store and whether you think that that would be something that would be compliant with the I guess the uh public safety in an area here, what types of offenses would you like to look at in connection with those cases?

So we got um drug offenses, uh theft offenses here included last time around, and some of those are and some of them are not related to liquor store operations.

So that's that's the question about what would you like to have in the so council just a reminder as a council we have agreed that we do want to maintain the requirement of council approving certain types of uses through special exceptions permits.

So our goal with this conversation and what what Phil has been researching is how might we strengthen this so that it is less susceptible to being challenged successfully in a court of law.

We want this to be a stronger.

So, Phil, if I'm hearing you correctly, what you're saying is here's a whole list of different things that we might add to our requirements for the review.

Um, a lot of those that councilwoman Dotley had done research on for one that came in district seven.

So is this kind of a talk through that and maybe check the boxes and do a check the box on which ones you think are important, which ones not in the operation of the liquor store.

Uh the other things that we also discussed, we had a pretty lengthy discussion with the planning people and the police department folks yesterday here concerning this matter.

And uh, do you want to keep your spacing the way that you've got it?

Because we reduced the spacing requirements down to just 200 feet, and does that 200 feet uh work with what you're looking for on here?

We have other different types of establishments here in the city that have uh higher distance restrictions than that, but if you want to have that, the distance restrictions did not apply in the urban areas right downtown to begin with under the form-based code.

If it was under the form-based code, those uh uh 500-foot restrictions were not applicable.

But if if you want to consider other areas, then that's possible uh that it makes it easier to get your numbers, at least that you're looking at about what is the crime like in the area.

You have to be careful about going too large in size to the area as well, because if you do, you may be looking at other uh locations that may be completely away from uh the the area you're trying to protect.

Okay, so those are those are some of the things we're looking at.

And so as we um strengthen our requirements for these types of applications, we can then use that as a pattern for others that we consider related to vape shops and things like that, correct?

Yes.

Okay, all right, council councilman Elliott.

When you're talking about spacing, are you talking about in between two of the same two of the same of the same type of businesses or certain businesses that you think may need to have protection from that?

Uh the argument always comes out in the regard to schools, the churches, and uh playground type areas for kids on there.

So uh what do you have?

And um we uh need to be at least looking about what is your desire as a council in in uh protecting locations from uh areas here, and this is a little bit different than a bar or two.

You need to be aware of that because normally unless somebody is uh cracking open that a half pint of whiskey when they go out of the liquor store, they're gonna be taking that a little bit further away.

But the question becomes is that uh something in your community that might result in more crimes or more concerns for your your public councilman Henderson.

Um well, two questions.

One Phil, what's the distance between in I believe in our um the pawn shop?

Yes, what is I think it's 500?

I was thinking 500.

You say a thousand?

Is it a thousand?

Um alternative financial circus of two thousand I know that uh adult-oriented establishments is five hundred feet.

Okay, uh for some reason I was thinking that the pawn shops were a little bit further.

Which I thought if that if you know if we've got an ordinance that already states that amount it I don't understand the difference on here, you said changing back to 500 feet space and it's currently 200 feet, but then you've also got change distance requirement to between liquor stores at a thousand.

So it so this you're you're saying the options are returning back to 500 or it could be a thousand feet.

Could be depending on what y'all think would be appropriate.

And and I should have more and more distance requirement.

Yes.

We're right now we're at 200, we could go back to 500 or a thousand, depending on I I don't know why I thought the pawn shops were maybe a thousand, but seven hundred and seventy-seven.

We could do any number of any number that is let's pick some arbitrary number so that's maybe something arbitrary and capricious, we'll throw in capricious.

If if you make it where you can have one in the entire city, sometimes that may be a problem if they're legally allowed under state law.

Well, let's face it, I need to be able to go to Jackson my way home.

Not here in district two.

That's another district two seat.

I'm looking for alternative financial districts right now.

Yeah, so to clarify for that, alternative financial districts sounds like would include or services would include pawn shops checking to cash.

Yes.

Which well, and maybe that's what I'm referring to as uh predatory lending, just I said pawn shops, but I think it's more predatory lending uh checking the cash and which I think was smart move on.

And then are there any cities that do um a ratio?

You know, the they cap it per capita that we can current currently you can ratio you have here in the city based upon the most recent changes to uh liquor stores is um is it not every three thousand people here in the city?

So uh we were counting that up.

We were trying to make sure how many you would have your number capped at at this point, and based on the current population, we believe that is roughly 60 liquor stores within the city of Chattanooga.

And that number went up from I think before it was limited to like 54 or so, but you you actually have up to 60 liquor stores if it's one per every 3,000 people at where is that figure coming from?

That comes from your current uh provisions in the chapter 5 of the city code, and it's 5109.

And how many do we have?

Oh Catherine, what was your latest count?

All right, as of 2024, there were 42.

Okay, and and the the one per 3,000 would be a cap it right now at 60.

There's been additional ones since 2024.

Yeah.

Can we do can so can we do both?

Can we place a distance requirement and a per capita maximum?

Can we do both?

You could yes.

Sounds like we already have that, right?

You do you uh in the it's actually five one oh eight currently, it's a liquor store can be located within two hundred feet from the nearest property line of a place that is a uh recreational park, place of worship, school, uh learning center, or uh daycare center or other liquor stores.

Plus we have the per capita, but we already have the per capita as well, and your per capita limitation, where is it here?

Yeah, and it's limited to one per 3,000 people in this.

Okay.

So that's it.

Both of those are in chapter 5 of the city code.

Okay.

Okay.

So really the only thing we're talking about amending would be the distance requirement.

Do we have any councilman Dotley?

Yeah.

So you sent it to the chat.

Okay.

Okay.

So for uh for this whole legislation.

So when it goes through RPA, would they be adding it to the um when they give us the the plan for it or the whatever the application when they submit their uh recommendation to us no recommends to approve or deny?

Is that something that will be in there?

Like is the are these things are are they going to be in that um should be in their package in a package application.

Okay.

That's the reason that you'd need to have an amendment here to the section here under uh liquor stores here to actually say that uh whenever you're submitting your application, it'll include something like this.

Okay, and then that information also would DMB share it with the business owner as well to make them aware that hey just be aware that these things are going on.

Correct.

Okay.

So with this, I if I understand, Councilman, I think um legal is providing us and planning is providing us with this list.

Okay, this would be kind of all of the different things, and we could make some choices about do we want all of them, what is the what is the if then, you know, um so that we can be as specific as possible.

Like for example, when I see Plan Chattanooga, like it has to be in accordance with that, would be one of the yes.

Like if you're not then right, so it's a clear if you have code violations, then don't even come to us.

Get that together, right?

Then these numbers might be a little trickier, it's kind of what I see.

Like we could have some specifics, I would think.

So we need to put a di like a time frame on it, like so.

In the last, like I for the one I just did, it was in the last year.

Right.

Within a one mile radius, these are the this is what I was looking for half mile, yeah.

So this is the thing I was looking for.

So is that something that's how we you know that we'll be trying to do is that kind of thing?

I think that's what we're trying to do.

Okay, so that then we would be able to say, look, not with within a half mile radius if you exceed X threshold.

This is not a appropriate if you exceed the average crime rate in the city, this is not an appropriate location.

Okay, and the more we dial it in, right?

Right.

The tighter the tighter we get, the more specific, right, and less uh subjective, right?

Because subjective is better.

Right, because the idea is not we're not looking at your individual.

We are looking at your individual business, but we're looking at your individual business in perspective to the entire community, because our goal is community and to look at that.

So that's okay.

I just want to make sure I was kind of level saving what I was doing.

Karen's concern on on some things on there is if you have it too wide on there, you may be in involving other communities on here.

Do you want to get into a situation where it's it's an area that is completely different from the community you're trying to protect?

And I don't know.

Okay.

Uh alternative financial services, she just sent that to me on here.

It says no alternative financial service may be located within 1,320 feet of an existing alternative financial service from lot line to lot line.

And then it can't be within 500 feet of a residential loan uh zone measure from light line.

So we did that from residential areas and then from other uh existing alternate financial services.

If I remember, I think that the mayor's council for women did a lot of work on that, and we can also thank councilwoman Dr.

Firrell Burr for her strong work on that.

What was that 13 point 1320?

Quarter mile.

Oh, okay.

Oh, way to know how many feet are in a mile.

Right.

Okay, okay.

Um councilwoman burst.

Um so on this list, does it include should we include other businesses in the area with similar offenses?

Would it include that?

Well so, like a you know the business across the street has had has checked these boxes, so can we use that as well?

I mean, if it's going to be including them if it's within that distance, that depends on you know how large of a distance you include.

If you have a um a half mile or a quarter mile uh distance restriction on here, anything within that area would be on this list as uh the numbers of of things that were in violation.

Okay, okay, and then that would include like if it was if it was close to a residential community um residential properties that have had similar issues as well, like repeated burglaries or maybe it's a drug house, or maybe it's a yeah, and and the police department in in doing this, they can make it as compact as you want on there if you want to like a heat signal showing uh how many of those things that might occur, or if you just simply want to show the numbers in an area here and the locations, they can do that.

Okay, and then that would include like if it was if it was close to a residential community um residential properties that have had similar issues as well like repeated burglaries or maybe it's a drug house or maybe it's a yeah and and the police department in in doing this they can make it as compact as you want on there if you want to like a heat signal showing um how many of those things that might occur or if you just simply want to show the numbers in an area here and the locations they can do that okay and it'll it'll show them based upon those areas and currently the the the last page you have on there shows the liquor stores at least that are uh marked out here uh in the the uh our our GIS system that we had I don't know if that includes all 60 uh all 40 surely this doesn't it doesn't look like it does to me it's about 40 on here okay about 40 and report it a little bit but you're you're limited right now based upon the most recent uh uh provisions of the code to 60 total um so council in terms of next steps um might I suggest that um each council person send your feedback to Phil and Phil can get us a draft um of a new ordinance um perhaps in the in the next two weeks sure um so two weeks is okay to fair yeah 30 the 31st so please um send your feedback to Phil by the 31st um and then legal can work on um a draft of an ordinance for us to go ahead and put on the agenda just does everybody feel comfortable going ahead and getting it on uh future considerations okay um so Phil maybe by middle of April if we could be on future considerations please and those will be amendments to section 5108 here as to the requirements uh for liquor stores okay thank you very much and once we get that tightened up the world is our oyster yes councilman is this something we can also include the smoke shops vape shops or is this something we want to work on separately I think you need to do that separately get this one tightened up and then we move on to vape shops okay and some of the restrictions are under chapter 11 in the code here right now for business operations and I believe that's where we had the provisions for alternative financial so a different part of the code so different part of the code this is just simply the liquor uh part and beer part of the code okay but you know what I think it would make sense um if we we could work on them in tandem though so if you have feedback on vape and smoke shops let's go ahead and send that also by the 31st so that legal can draft that as well we just might decide we want to take a look at it sure um but if they both could end up on future consideration separately with by mid-April that would feel that would feel like they're making good progress I think okay okay all right okay and that will be reflected in the minutes everybody that um Nicole was taking so one more question okay chair um madam chair um so we will discuss this at the next strategic planning so the first one in April no my intent is that we would provide feedback to uh Phil by the 31st and then he would take all of that his department would take that and craft um an ordinance that we have the next step is the ordinance correct so both for liquor stores and then knowing that that would become the framework then also for vape shops.

Gotcha okay thank you okay let's see what's next on our agenda we have a lot and I'd really like us to be able to get to all of it if possible okay five vote requirement um that we were discussing in the um in the rules the city council rules Phil did you have any recommendations for us on that?

Well I'm I definitely think that and if it's leave it that's great recommendation.

Okay my my recommendation is going to be that it takes five votes for this body to uh do anything as a body so that would be my preference uh if if you're uh going to have a situation where you don't have a five member uh majority on a matter then that is the reason that we have uh language in there that says it would come up the following week and try to get that because it should be the action of the entire council not just an action of a minority of your group it should be the entire council that makes a decision because you are the body.

However, within our rules based on our charter, um you have to have five yes votes or five no votes to move anything up or down.

So in the event that you have a quorum, but you don't have five agreeable votes, effectively you can't do any business, nothing can be moved forward.

Um but it's a very rare occasion, and to Phil's point, better to have his suggestion as attorney is better to have a full majority and just come back to it.

And that that's currently in your rules that you just adopted here on February the 17th.

Right.

Uh it'll take five yes or five no votes to adopt or to feed any action.

So that that's what you got in your current procedures.

And if if for some reason there's not enough people, then you can uh come back the following week and try to see if you can get a majority at that point in time.

But that would normally be required, and that's the reason you got nine members on your council, so that there is a number that would require a majority.

And uh that's that's the reason most bodies usually have an odd number on there so that it's not just an even number of people on there where you're deadlocked at all times.

We've only had in my five years, we've only had it occur one time.

The councilman Ellie.

Um I'm gonna ask this question again, ask more tastefully this time, Councilman Burris.

I think you got on to me last time for I asked it.

What if we have a situation where we have several council members who for whatever reason illness or otherwise are unable to serve or come to council for an exterior period of time?

I think last time I may have thrown out a little bit more morbid scenario.

What are you talking about?

Yeah, it was I think the last time it was a little bit more, but I wasn't died.

I think it was a good one.

But in that where you know, for whatever reason they may intend on continuing to serve at some point, right?

They just may not be able to uh attend council member council meetings for an extended period of time.

Essentially, that could put all businesses at halt for until they are able to retire.

So, how do we get around that?

Don't all get on the same bus at the same time.

Well, the same employees.

What if all four of us female members were on maternity leave at the Jesus looking at it?

Yeah, by a lot of the value of pocket.

But I'm on the league.

But I hear perhaps it's a cross average when we come to it.

It's it's yeah.

It's cross a bridge when you come to it.

I I still think as a body of individuals, y'all need to make sure you're doing things where it is a majority of the body that goes forward on any point if you can.

If you can't do that and it gets voted down, it gets voted down.

That's the way that would occur.

But if someone is out because of of some type of uh long-term injury or long-term illness here in connection with that, uh their uh their voting electorate that put them in office, at least uh they've got some authority through recall if they need to, if they're gonna be out for a longer period of time on there.

If there's an issue where a person just can't attend the meeting, uh we could at least try to work out something potentially as some type of uh I guess uh uh appearance on on video since you're uh meetings are all streamed.

That's another option that you could look at at that point in time, something to make it easier for someone who is incapacitated for a period of time.

I still think you need to have a majority of your group to be able to make a decision on matters that are important for the whole city.

Okay, uh Vice Chairman and Councilman.

I was gonna say, you know, in this day and age with um all the electronics and videos that we have, um, the person might not be able to come physically but mentally, they're definitely there that they they can handle whatever it is.

It could be a broken leg or a hip, or I'm not throwing it out there for nobody to get it.

So I'm just saying you you could do it that way because right now, I mean, the way it runs now, the majority that's here makes the decision, right?

Yes, ma'am.

And that that's something you can think about at least in your rules.

Do you want to allow appearance um by remote individual if they're ill or something in that regard?

But you can cross that bridge when you get to it if you want to.

Okay, councilman Henderson.

So uh I I mean that's really sort of a I would classify it as a catastrophic event.

But now I think I think it would have to be to do a live spring, a live stream or to join by Zoom.

I think it's has to be permitted by the C state law because I think right now we have to be in person once the once the pandemic ended, then they ended that.

But just to say that they could certainly enact it again.

And like I said, really kind of your scenario is sort of a catastrophic, I would consider catastrophic event.

And so I'm sure at that point there could be some measures taken that would allow for some other measure.

Councilman Harvey.

If that's a real concern, could we put in an emergency powers clause of some sort emergency in case of what pandemic whatever, you know, uh some sort of emergency catastrophic last resort type thing to reference the the emergency power provision in the state law goes to the mayor usually on there?

So the mayor can do that and authorized to declare a state of emergency.

So we have so we have a within the law, we have it covered.

Yes, it doesn't necessarily need to be in our rules.

Well, I guess what a more saying is in in the case of okay, say all right, if mayor declares a state of emergency or whatever, council will meet via Zoom, council uh person will meet in Zoom if they can't make you know four meetings in a row due to medical, you know, something like that, basically to address your concern.

That makes sense.

Okay.

I don't, you know, I'm not gonna, I'm not living and dying off of this one.

I think it's just one of those things of how do we handle it if it does come up.

Right.

And you know, I think we have a safety net monetarily.

The mayor's office has emergency purchasing power if they need to purchase things in emergency for whatever reason we cannot meet um one thing that and and councilman Henderson's correct as a catastrophic event that you know just preparing for what's the worst to come.

But in that case, I know we all understand we can't just meet virtually, but if we get to a point where we need to change the rules, but we don't even have enough votes to change the rules, right?

We're stuck with the rules as they are.

And so that that's the only thing, you know.

Lord Lord forbid we ever have to encounter this.

Is just what type of loopholes or breathing room do we give ourselves just in case worse comes to worse.

Um I I'd like to add like Cody, you throughout the the uh four meetings, for example.

I've just about all four of us females being on maternity leave.

Um I don't think any of us are signing up for maternity leave.

Yeah, again, however, what I want to be mindful of is making making service possible and um you know a 12-week maternity leave is a very reasonable maternity leave for consideration, as is you know, for uh a hip replacement or some major um medical thing.

So I I want us to be sensitive to that and not like walk us into something that makes it more difficult to search people when you can do re-electives.

Absolutely.

Um so council, might I um I get a suggestion from the body on uh if we want to consider um any type of emergency type language, or if we want to sit on this a lot of that of a little guidance on common forward, councilman first.

I I suggest that we move forward with it.

I'm not sure if there's anything else to discuss, and I like the idea of referencing maybe um emergency procedures if there's already something in place, then going ahead and referencing that so we know where to look in the event that we're unable to vote in person, then we we will request of the mayor, maybe the whoever's authority it is to request of the mayor some emergency procedure to allow us to do a virtual or something along those lines.

So will you get us some draft planning on that, please?

Council, does that feel like a good consensus point?

Okay, we've got a lot of headshakes.

Thank you, everyone.

Um, next up, um HR committee.

Um that was an idea brought to us by councilman Clark.

Um Councilman Clark, would you like to say anything about that for our discussion?

Yeah, I think at the time that the recommendation came into place, we were discussing um I think we were discussing some HR related issues regarding some changes in someone please help me with the terminology, the reversion pay.

Uh like for instance, if you had civil service protection and you stepped down in a role.

Um I think is I think there's some current language that we're considering around that.

HR is working.

Right, and so I wanted to give some context to how that came into play because we used to have an HR committee.

As a matter of fact, my uh predecessor, um uh councillor Russell Gilbert chaired the HR committee, and it was used as a kind of a um a budsman's process for city workers when they come to us with HR issues that are not handled in in the framework of the executive branch.

I know Councilman Elliott had at one point discussed there was a what was the board that you talked about civil service board?

Civil service board.

So anyway, so I'm just wondering uh council if it's a we we often times get HR complaints about HR uh from different yeah it's a true um and I'm just wondering how do we create some type of opportunity or policy to where as we used to hear those cases.

I know at some point some people consider it a slippery slope to get involved in those HR matters, but I'm wondering if we should uh resurrect this process and maybe create some more guardrails or some more standard operating um procedures when city employees come to us with complaints that we have to then talk to the administration about.

I don't know, we don't have any processes in place that I'm aware of as a new council person, so maybe creating HR committee will help us create those frameworks.

I'd be curious to hear some thoughts about that, and then uh Mandy, I'd love to hear your thoughts on that if you don't mind.

Thank you.

Um Councilman Harvey.

Yeah, my first question is is more fulfilled.

What is the council's role when it comes to HR?

The executive branch is in charge of the employees here that work for the city on that end of it.

So that normally falls under the mayor in that regard.

So that that's the way it's set up and chart.

Okay.

And within the ag there are um checks and balances and procedures for that.

Yes.

And um those egg provisions come before you, and y'all adopt those provisions by resolution here, and that's in the quasi judicial authority that this body has to try to protect the employees here for ad from adverse action of the administration.

Okay, that's so other than the egg.

Uh are there uh are there is there a procedure where an employee who was disgruntled or didn't get you know felt like they were not heard.

Is there a procedure where they come to us at all?

Yes.

Well, I mean, they can talk to your their individual council member at any point because they're a resident of the city of Chattanooga.

But I guess his question is is there a pro is there a written procedure, like if they're going through the procedural steps in the employees, what's the I stand for the employee information?

Yes.

If they're going through those steps outlined in the EIG, is his question is Is there a procedure beyond that that involves counsel for us to intervene if that employee has a grievance or feel like that process has failed?

No, the grievance process is in the egg here to go through that body on there, and then there's an administrative appeal if there is some concern about the grievance isn't heard correctly, and that goes to an outside body that this body has chosen.

They uh kind of administrative hearing officer for the state.

So that's a thing, yeah.

Councilman Donnelly.

Uh I yield to councilman Iliad Dave.

Okay, councilman Dotley, then councilman.

To add layers to that, according to the EIG, if somebody, and I believe it's termination, if someone is terminated, they have 10 days to file an appeal with the city our clerk, Nicole.

Correct.

And that then triggers council to send this to administrative hearing officers.

No, administrative law judge.

Yeah, administrative law judge.

Okay.

Okay, ALJ.

Formerly council used to serve as that hearing body.

It did not usually go to ALJ.

Okay.

Council will hear all appeals, but now it goes to ALJ.

So we are part of the appeal process to answer your question.

Okay.

But 10 days after termination.

Yeah.

But only in a termination matters.

Correct.

Correct.

No.

Unless it's it's actually worked on demotions.

I know that because we've had appeals of the motions in the police department that go to an ALJ and ALJ resolves those.

Yeah, so I would say it's appropriate when you're like in, I'm gonna link back to like collective bargaining.

So if you're affecting someone's pay, their status or their job security, it could potentially move to an appeal.

Okay.

And so that goes and stops at the uh step three, I think it is on the grievance.

I don't know for me, uh, and that goes before the CHRO or their designee, and they have and it's a committee that hears the grievance review committee that hears the grievance to make a decision.

So we generally pick like what is somebody that's a police officer.

We pick people from fire because they understand the sworn concept, and so we have somebody from leadership from fire sitting on that committee to help make the decision.

Okay.

Thank you.

Um councilman.

Thank you so much, and thank you, Councilman Iliot, for uh a little bit more clarity.

I think they answered a little bit of what I was going to ask, but uh and and feel status, you know, that's really an executive function.

We got a legislative body.

So I like being a part of I mean it's okay to be a part of the appeal process, but even that in the way that previous councils have turned that into, you know, that just goes up to the you know administrative law judge because it's it's it's almost out of the scope of what we are supposed to be doing.

So I don't uh and we gonna we're gonna hear it anyway.

I mean somebody get mad, they can email us, talk to us, whatever.

Um and my course of action has always been to send it back to send it back to the people that manage it.

Uh so I think that I just I don't I don't think we should get it HR matters because we we don't do this every day.

We don't I don't I don't go and talk to I don't I'm not over in public works uh I'm not in departments every day, I'm out doing something else.

So I think that for me just HR committee is not something that I think the council should take a hold to.

And even in our previous um in the term before this, that was an HR committee that never really met.

We never met, we never nothing ever came up, you know, it was just kind of a sitting committee.

So I don't know, that's just my opinion on it.

They elected, they had a mayor, you got a staff, file means handle it, and if they want to appeal it and they go through the process through the appeals process, and this council has decided they didn't want to be the you know the judge or whatever hearing body decided to send it on to an administrative law judge, that's fine with me.

So that's just my thoughts on it.

I would agree with you, councilman.

I I think we have plenty of other work on our plates, and I personally like the idea of an administrative law judge who knows how to look at all of that, and I don't want to get involved in sunshine law, etc.

So I was just gonna give you a I was a history major in case you haven't learned that from this point, and the the history of all this and then in law goes together in that regard because in 1990 there was a change in the form of government, and before that change in form of government, there were departments that actually ran different um groups in the city.

So the public works department was a commissioner, the person who ran the public utilities departments for the city was a commissioner as well.

Uh the mayor ran the buildings here in City Hall and the employees that were going back and forth.

So that that was the way the form of government was set up initially, and that went away whenever we had a change in district representation here, and the legislative district was created to enable the people within the areas here in the city to be able to vote for for y'all.

And that that's how that came forward at that point in time.

And the quasi judicial functions that were available were those vestiges from the earlier time, and they found while they were doing that there was an issue if more than uh one council member wanted to fight another council member to get on the panel to be able to help an employee that that was a little bit of an issue there.

So that's why the administrative law judge process was developed here, and it's worked quite well for the state on here, and they have procedures where they hear this all over the state of Tennessee whenever they they deal with those issues.

So that's a little bit of the history that was involved in that process.

Thank you for more context.

Okay, do you have any other questions, Councilman Elliott?

I think the only thing I would add outside of discipline, I think we should consider the oversight we have just like every other department, you know, outside of discipline, they also are responsible for so many other things.

And fun facts, HR doesn't do discipline here.

I think that's for a lot of people are misunderstood.

I didn't hear what you said, HR doesn't let it discipline.

Yeah, yeah.

And so I think that's something that a lot of people are confused by.

They help walk our managers through the disciplinary and EIG process.

They themselves are not passed out discipline.

But you know, they're doing everything from benefits to leave to EIG policies.

So that could be a position where we provide some type of council oversight because many of those policies we would have to consider.

That says school for call for us to consider in the future.

Okay.

Thank you very much, Council.

Great conversation.

So may I suggest that we table the thought of adding an HR committee for now and we keep an eye on it and then as we as we grow together as a council and revisit it when the time is appropriate?

Yeah, I agree.

Okay.

Okay.

Public common procedure, Councilwoman Burris.

Could you talk us through the thought for this?

Yeah.

I guess it was about a month ago, and I at this point I really don't remember what uh what the group was there for, but we had a lot of students that were at our council meeting.

It was ice.

Was it ice?

Okay, was it ice?

Okay, yeah, that my we we've moved on, right?

We haven't moved on, but we have okay.

Tragedy, I and it just it brought to my attention um is there a necessity for some sort of procedure when large groups of especially when large groups of people are here to speak to the council on a topic that we collect information when they come in and ask them to sign in and say, you know, I this is what I plan to talk about, that I'm here for this particular topic.

Because what it what it did was, and then of course the criticism that we received, whether it was right or wrong, I'm not saying it was right, was that we didn't acknowledge those folks and we didn't give them the opportunity to speak, and and the following week, Chairwoman Hill did such a great job of then educating the public on what the procedure is.

We're not trying to ignore people why they're here.

Um this is what our process is, and we welcome your your comments, but here's there's a time and a place for it.

And I noticed that uh say, for instance, when you go to a beer board meeting, you have to sign in that you're here, you're there for a particular reason.

Is there any benefit to have people sign in when they come in to they don't have to say necessarily what they're there to speak about, but if we see that there's 15 people that are there to speak to the council, at least that gives the opportunity to the chair to say, uh, I see where there's uh 15 people here tonight to speak to the council on various topics.

We don't even need to know the topic.

I just want to remind you what the procedure is.

Um we have an agenda, here's our timeline, this is when you'll have opportunity to speak.

So people could could leave and come back, or at least we're we don't come across as ignoring them.

So it things have seemed to settle down now.

It may have just been kind of like at that moment, it might seem like a good uh a good opportunity to do something.

So I thought I'd uh bring it forward to see if there's any interest in establishing some sort of system.

And Phil, could you uh could you add if we have any um limitations on something like that?

Yeah, there um the General Assembly passed a new law uh 844112 in 2024 here, and that is in effect right now at this point, and it says that y'all can put reasonable restrictions on the uh period for public comment, which is what we do, the time manner in place of three minutes in that regard, such as the length of the period, the number of speakers, and the length of time that each speaker will be allowed to provide comment, and you can require a person to give notice in advance of the desire to offer comments at a meeting, and you can take all practical steps to ensure that opposing viewpoints are representative fairly.

So other governmental bodies do have that and require people to actually sign up on what they're going to talk about on there, and then allow uh those people to be able to be um presenting their their uh uh issue to the council if you want it want to do that in that regard.

Uh I know that the folks in Memphis actually have a sergeant of arms who enforces that.

So they have a person that actually requires them to do that outside to sign up.

Um Memphis is pretty bizarre.

They actually require them to include um a comment card that has to have their home address involved, and if they want to speak, they have to show that they do actually live there in Memphis to be able to talk, and uh they have to uh uh provide their name on the record uh to state their address whenever they do that, and if they're falsifying their address and just coming in from abroad to speak on that, uh they uh can be prohibited from speaking again.

So that that was interesting to see that.

Catherine was printing me off a copy of that today.

Uh they are limited over there to two minutes and can't speak on more than two agenda items, and no one can uh yield time to allow people to just keep on going.

So the the time manner and police type restrictions are things that are well recognized within the first amendment to the constitution, so that that's why we try to do that.

So I think what councilwoman bursts is was was bringing was trying to add a greater measure of dignity and um responsiveness to the public.

So it sounds as though we have we have many options that we could if this body was interested in tighten up, but that was not the intent of the conversation.

It's really more to give people an opportunity to communicate with us in advance of the of the meeting so that the chair would be able just to acknowledge we understand we have a lot of people here tonight that are concerned about X topic.

Please know we're here to listen to you kind of thing.

Yeah, and as if I could add another comment to that is you know, as I'm as I say it out loud, I don't even think we need to necessarily know what the topic is.

I think just knowing that I plan to my name is Jenny Burr's and I plan to speak during public comment, because then I don't I don't want people to be discouraged for coming and speaking out.

I mean, I just I don't you know, with the exception of one person, we you know, there's rarely been anything that's been inappropriate, even though we might not like the topic, or it may just be, you know, why are you telling us this?

But at the same time it gives people a forum.

So I don't want to, I don't want to um so I think if we just say, hey, if you plan to speak tonight, just please sign in, and it could be as simply as I see that we have about 15 people here tonight, and it could even be right before the recess because it gives people a chance to come in.

Somebody hands you a note that says we've had 15 people in case then this case it would be you until the next chair.

But I see where we have about 15 people here to speak.

I just want to make you aware of what our schedule's gonna be and when you can expect to, you know, can't tell exactly what time, but I want to make sure you understand we're not blowing you off in a nice you know, however you want to put it.

You need to have a time uh when they do that, and you need to have a cutoff time of when they can do that if you do it on their position.

And then how does that get to you?

It could be voluntary, right?

I mean, does it I think because this is a um a move toward being not like we don't want people to be discouraged, so I it feels to me like it's a little bit more casual at this point, it's not a requirement that you have to sign in.

But if you want to sign in so people know we all know you were here as a form of you can as a communication tool, not as much an order maintaining tool.

Like I wouldn't see that with this that the chair would be like, Well, we only have 15 people and you're number 16, so go.

I don't think that's the intent at all.

I think it's trying to be more welcoming.

Uh Councilwoman Dotley, followed by Councilman Henderson.

Um, and I guess and actually my question is directed toward councilman Henderson before I saw your hand up and I thought, oh, that's the person I want to have.

Yeah, put my hand down.

So when um before I got on council, I used to watch it online because y'all were virtual.

And so you used to call out the people's names, like it's such and such an online, because everybody was virtual.

So then so you all had a sign up, y'all had a sign in or sign up process because y'all could call names.

Sometimes people wouldn't be there, but y'all will call their name, and and for me just listening, it made me feel like oh, they know their name, or at least you know, it's just a way of kind of connecting or whatever, you know, connecting with those people.

So what was what was your process?

I know it was uh electronic, but what was y'all's process of getting people to sign up?

Do you remember or Nicole?

I remember that would be that would be a Kim Smith or answer.

That's right, because he was a sick person.

He was a tech person, but you could submit your name and and you would be in that queue.

Right.

Raise your hand.

Uh uh.

I wanted to call you council with left for the right.

Yeah, right.

You are correct, but that was strictly why we were during COVID.

Yes.

That was not integrated into a live meeting.

Right.

Oh, okay.

So it was your it was your way.

Because otherwise, I wouldn't know if you wanted to speak or not unless you had submitted because you so the nine councilment, well, nine and field was on the screen.

Yes, yeah.

And then everybody else just had to submit a request.

Yeah.

And it was just so that we could then push a button and bring them in.

Okay.

It wasn't for like, well, I guess it was permission to speak, but but that's the way the forum made us do it.

If does that make sense?

Otherwise, we wouldn't have known who wanted to speak or not.

Right, right.

And I think that's kind of in a sense.

I think it's good because then you call in a person's name, or if it's just a 15, you know, 15.

You can explain to people, or if it's a names, you know, piece where you say, hey, you know, so such a in order of how they got it on the list, you know, or something like that.

I don't know.

But I just think it's a I think it'd be it, I think it'd be good.

I just I always liked it because I felt like y'all were calling the person's name, yeah, and that just made you know it kind of pulls you into a place where you feel like you're part of the meeting and don't feel like you're just just outside of stepping out waiting to say something.

So it there was a little, I think it in fact I think it was called a waiting room that you were placed in.

Okay.

And so I would have to tell Councilman Smith, bring such a thing whoever out of the waiting room so that they could then comment.

So they would submit it prior to the meeting.

I think they could submit it during the meeting.

Okay.

Okay.

Even during the meeting.

Uh the c Nicole.

I think maybe it was prior to the meeting, correct?

You had to submit if you wanted to speak prior to the meeting, and then you created a list.

It it seems like somehow you were involved.

That makes sense.

Prior to prior to the meeting.

Okay.

That was that was five years ago.

But I think it was.

I think it was prior to the exact thing.

I think there was a link.

A lot of this is coming back now.

I think there was a link that you prior to the meeting had to submit a request to be added into the waiting room.

Okay.

And then when we got to the end of the meeting, we would call you out of the waiting room.

Okay.

That works.

Okay.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Thank you, Councilman.

I well, I I did.

I I guess.

And then we'll have Harvey after it.

You know what?

It it sounds like maybe um it was really a matter of communication.

They didn't understand that they would have to wait till the end.

Right.

To simplify things.

And a lot of times uh I when I chaired, I would always say, please make sure your cell phones on silent.

We could also include if you're here to speak.

Here's our process.

Here's our process.

Regardless of you know, we can pretty much look out there and tell if people are here to speak.

And to me, it I I just you know, I'm I'm simple.

I like to keep things as simple as I can.

If we just make an announcement before we really get started with the meeting, letting people know here's our process.

If you want to speak, we're gonna take a brief recess and then we'll come back.

That at least that sort of speaks to them without speaking to them personally or individually, and then without them having to sign a piece of paper because I don't want people to think that you got to sign a piece of paper in order to speak because I don't know how many times I have heard somebody get up there and say, I really wasn't planning on speaking tonight.

And look, and we want to encourage everybody to speak.

So maybe I mean just consider maybe maybe we have a little announcement at the very beginning, turn your cell phones off, and if you're here to speak, you can do it after we return from recess.

That's a sad idea out of trouble with cell phones except for one.

It seems like on the far right.

Well, I know I know one member has the trouble.

One member has trouble with the iPad.

It's always the iPad does not seem to want to work with me.

Can you see telling us my first question would be stomp on it and still talking?

I wouldn't want to deny someone who hadn't signed up to be able to speak.

Absolutely not.

Uh that was my first thing, and how would we enforce that?

But uh the second thing is um I like what councilwoman Dotley did during the budget uh hearings, and you said one hour.

You know, how many ever people get through that is that's that's what it is.

But you got an hour, and so I don't know, it should we consider, you know, if we do recognize that there's a larger crowd and we recognize that these there is a topic that the public wants to speak on.

Do we consider moving that up in the agenda instead of the last thing, do it the first thing, set it for 45 minutes, set it for an hour, and then the public feels like they've been heard, they can leave, and then we can continue the business at the council.

Yeah, I can remember the county commission setting up something like what Phil was describing is within the law to say we're gonna have this much time, there'll be 30 minutes for this view and 30 minutes for this view, and then kind of decide amongst yourselves who's gonna take that time.

Is that something Phil that we would be able to enact on an ad hoc basis?

You you can it it is allowed, it it's better if you have just a procedure in place if there's a special issue coming up.

I I would do that do it for that.

So it's clearly allowed in the statute.

I would remind people that we have had a 2 a.m.

meeting.

That's what I'm saying.

Set up set a time.

Because the council didn't want to set a time limit.

Yeah, and so that's and that's always the kind of side.

That was a long night.

Well, I think I think that speaks to the culture of this council being willing to stay happy.

Happy to stay until everyone is heard.

But that was one way to do that.

It does seem like it could make sense as we're looking at the other uh the other uh emergency elements on the council rules to consider adding in our public comment, just going ahead and identifying the fact that this is something that we may do as necessary for special topics of the need for the community.

Um Vice Chairwoman Noah followed by Councilman Elliott.

Okay, so in the past it has been if there is a large group, most of the time they do have one spokesperson.

Even though that um sometimes sometimes they might want to ask them to stand and let them know, but they do have one person that come up.

I know when we were doing um whatever it was, I can't remember the exact thing when you would chair uh councilwoman Dotley.

They that there was several times that there was very large groups, but they did have a spoke.

Senior Center folks that yeah, they just show up.

Okay.

Councilman Elliott.

So Councilman Harvest Point, you know, I would recommend that instead of us changing the rules, leaving that at the discretion of the chair.

Okay, or we always have the ability to motion to suspend the rules and move things around accordingly.

So if we oversee a large contingent, any of us can motion to suspend a rules to move public comment to the top, um, and then we just go with that way instead of having to change our rules, we can just keep that in the back of our mind and do it on a as need basis.

It's the 330 meeting.

You can do it anytime.

And if you have a longer comment period, just like what councilman Dolly did, the chair can put a time limit on there.

Uh, like technically the chair can put a time limit on anybody speaking.

Um, and so that's just something we can keep in the back of our mind for wherever's hearing.

So, point of point of feedback on that and why I think it would be useful to have some language in here related to just what we are able to do, and like the things where we reference the emergency powers, that that kind of thing.

I find that when when I write something down, it gives me permission to find it, so to speak.

Um, because you know, as one of the challenges I think of of a nine-member democratically elected body is that um uh it's it's one of our advantages that we continually have a change in leadership, but because of that, we don't always have procedures written down the way or or depth of knowledge because it changes, and so like if this is all there, then when the next chair comes in, all these questions are answered and they don't have to be an under another phone call.

I think it doesn't limit or extend power, it just writes it down, um, which um can be really useful just for answering questions.

Yeah, council.

I just want to real quick just because I know we need to wrap this up and move on.

I just I appreciate the conversation and I I love the idea of just better communication.

I think that that could solve the biggest issue, and if it's coming from the chair, then I think that's a great idea.

I don't I'm not necessarily in favor of changing a policy, but just being more responsive to the folks that come here and making sure that they feel included and part of the process and how and how it's structured for them to be included.

Yeah, and that they are heard.

That they are heard.

That's the main thing.

Yeah, I think that speaks to those values that we identified.

Um okay, so our final topic for today, or no, not our final topic.

We have two more topics.

Um, councilman Elliott has uh uh potentially brought some some thoughts on um the council policy position.

I'm gonna make this very brief.

Um I have heard from a lot of folks.

Shaw Mahill gave me her thoughts as well.

Um I do need to get shores.

Yeah, I've got them written down.

I'll just okay.

If you can send me those, and I would like to send a final uh draft of this, and I would like to go ahead and move forward with putting this to a vote in um the next couple weeks via resolution, and so I'll compile all of those changes and throw out my final proposal for all of us to consider.

And the reason I'm ready to move forward, we've been talking about this one for better part of a year.

And it's time to land a plane or park it permanently.

Okay, so when would you like everybody to get their uh feedback to you so that you can move forward?

You want it by the end of this week?

Really by tomorrow.

By tomorrow.

Fair enough.

Because I've asked folks for a couple weeks now.

All right, so if you have any feedback that you'd like him to consider for a resolution that is yours wholly, but you can do this uh after you see fit.

Um please get it to councilman Elliott on uh by the end of the day tomorrow.

And we will expect um to see if uh to get that on the agenda that approved the agenda.

Three weeks.

Yeah, we could do it on the do you want on the two week or you want on future considerations?

Two weeks.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you.

All right, um council rules code of ethics.

First, want to thank councilwoman Dotley for um raising her hand and saying, Hey, you want me to look into this?

And I said, I love working with Councilwoman Dotley.

It was wonderful for her to volunteer.

So take it away, ma'am, because this code the ethics complaints were something that came up.

Um go for it.

Yes, so it's something that um in the spirit of kind of tightening up our council rules, having things written down.

It was recommended by our wonderful city attorney that we uh add something something similar to our rules uh regarding complaints against council members, simply because council members do not fall under the employee information guide, we fall under a code of ethics, which is a higher standard.

So all I've done here is went to our charter because it's already in the charter because the people have already decided what they would like to see.

And so all this is is coming out of our directly out of our charter.

I kind of outlined the process a little different and complaints um against council members, because in our charter it has uh uh employees and officials, but then council members have a separate complaint process.

So all this is is outlining that process based on what's already in our charter.

So basically the process is um council member is outlined in the city charter, and I got you chapter two, article eight, section two, seven sixty-one B.

Is that right, B?

I'll be on this legalese.

Yes, ma'am.

And so um, so basically it outli outlines that uh it will be a presentation to the council, and that will come from our city attorney who is our chief ethics officer.

They have to come uh present the complaint at the next regular scheduled meeting of the city council, uh initial review and vote.

This is we come into play because again, we don't fall under the EIG.

So after hearing the nature of the complaint, we have to decide as a majority vote, and I get all now have to be here, uh, or you know, as a majority vote to determine one or three outcomes.

The complaint has merit, it doesn't have merit, or it needs further investigation.

So we have to determine that um amongst ourselves in a public meeting, uh, if we decide it needs further investigation, um, then uh the majority council has to vote on uh if one if it warrants for the investigation, the council will authorize an investigation to be conducted either by our chief ethics officer, which is our which is Phil, or by an outside entity because we do have contracts with other law firms now.

That's on our side of it, the requirements for filing a complaint from someone on the out, you know, from a uh employee, and that goes for anybody, whereas employee of the city, a uh constituent um to initiate their process, they have to uh submit it within 90 days of the alleged violation.

The complaint must be in a written sign written.

I'm just reading it because I just want to make sure I'm reading it out loud.

Uh format the complaint must be in writing signed by the complaint and notarized.

Uh require contents, it must include the complaint's legal name and current mail and address, the names of the officials involved, a summary of the facts, and an explanation of why the those facts constitute an ethics violation.

Um good faith complaints must be filed with a good faith basis.

Anyone filing a false complaint would be subject to penalties, penalties of perjury, and if they need help filling out the complaint form, they can contact our chief ethics officer or design is permitted to help them.

So that is what our charter outlines, and uh kind of in and and as madam chair said, you know, we just want to this is just a matter of adding it to our council rule so it is transparent, people can see it, and they can understand that we we too can be complained on.

We are we are Chattanoogans as well.

We uh we have a code of ethics and the manner of behavior that we should have, and so people also have a recourse to say, hey, I believe this council member has violated the code of ethics by whatever they feel, yes.

Um one question to you, Phil, and thank you again, councilwoman.

Um, is the way that I understand this is that every officially filed complaint would end up being presented in public to council.

Is is that the case or is there any space for initial um review by the chief ethics officer to determine if the uh if the complaint is uh a legitimate ethics violation?

Well, if if if I am reviewing it as the chief ethics officer here, I would normally review that there is an ethics committee that is involved as well, which is uh me and the chief finance officer, and I believe it's the Mr.

Sumble.

Yeah, it is or either the chair of city council or the something like that.

It's three people, they are the review committee.

And then if the review committee determines it is an actual violation, then it comes or then it comes in front of the chair.

So we'll add that part to the I I think um I'm probably not alone in the concern that especially like as election season rolls around, we wouldn't want this to be used as either um uh a weapon against um an elected leader.

I'm gonna roll too quick.

What's that?

I'll let it roll too quick.

We just got out of one.

Um but as a as a weapon against uh a council member for doing their job, right?

Um, or um something that becomes um uh overly uh onerous because we we don't want frivolous our CFO, our city attorney, and our uh our auditor spending significant amounts of time on um frivolous correct real a hundred percent uh and I know we don't want to we want to be as transparent as possible, not subjective.

Councilman Clark.

You had your hand raised up.

Oh no.

No, took it down.

Councilman Harvey, followed by councilman Elliott.

Wait, okay, so say we go through all this, and there's there is a series of complaint and the council finds it has merit.

What what's the penalty for a council member?

Penalty for a council member is it coming out in the public meeting in that regard there, and if there is some sort of I guess criminal violation, then there is potential potentially criminal prosecution.

If there's some sort of violation of your oath of office that you had, then that's subject to uh ouster proceedings.

Okay.

And then also a public center, but that's just kind of like uh uh bad a mere badge of onerously.

I'd rather not add that if you're right, right.

Okay, okay, councilman.

Uh councilman Harvey asked most of my questions.

Well, you answered most of my questions.

But ouster proceedings.

Yes.

Um we can oust another council person.

No, only the courts can oust person.

Oh, so we will say that's a chance to report.

An action in court would have to make a determination if they're able to if it's criminal.

Well, it can be a civil violation too, as well.

Okay.

Yeah.

Okay.

But this this is a very serious process that's truck with me.

So it doesn't take five of us to remove chip.

That one is not allowed.

That isn't right.

Only the people that put me in here can take my sense.

That's right.

No, you left out one.

Yes.

One major person.

Oh god.

So madam chair.

Yes, ma'am.

So for this, um, I can go back and add a couple of pieces to it included.

Yes.

Oh, okay.

Well, thank you, fam.

Do you got these?

You've carried the water.

Oh, right.

Well, it's all about okay.

So if it's enshrined in our charter, we're just is this just a something we've done that we're doing to put into our um our rules.

I guess for visibility purposes, someone was researching or well, so that's trying to figure out what we're doing.

Yeah, when you when any one of us as a council member is looking at our rule book, the more clarity it can have within it, the fewer questions.

But it's the same thing in our charter, right?

Correct, right?

Yeah, and the same thing with um special powers is something that's in state law.

Um the the public comment piece is something that's in state law, but just these are questions that have been asked.

Now we write it down, we've got it all in one place.

So the people don't have to go all over the place.

And so it'll just say pursuant to etc.

etc.

This is you know, and yep, y'all had to adopt these codes of ethics here because the state of Tennessee required you to do so.

Uh and that that's one of the requirements for public officials in the state that they comply with this code of ethics as well as city employees.

So, really, with all three of these topics related to to the rules, none of them really change any powers that exist.

They don't they don't add to or take away from anything, they just acknowledge here's a question we've had, let's write them down in this one document so we have fewer places to look.

So uh let's see, do thank you all so much for this great discussion and your your thoughtfulness.

Um Councilman Henderson, I believe you had one other item.

So in preparation for America's 250th birthday, there's a little celebration committee that is formed, and one of the things that they've done is they're making up some um quarter-inch liberty bills.

Cool.

We have one right now that is behind the sign shop down here onion bottom that uh can be brought up here if the council has no objections to us displaying it here on the council yard.

Sounds great.

Yeah.

I think it would be us participating in the celebration.

That's great.

We're good with that.

That's awesome.

Okay.

I'm not I don't know.

I'm not owned, but if it's a review, no, I have plenty to do, but I just thought if you were on a party planning, I have my own.

You don't want me planning a party.

All right, Councilman.

There would be no beer, no leaving.

I just want to commend Councilman Henderson on his proper use of his iPad.

All right.

Anybody else have any announcements?

No.

Okay, thanks everybody.

We'll see you at 3 30.