All right, I'll call this uh special meeting of the governing body to order for March 16th, 2026.

Madam Clerk, would you take the role, please?

Mr.

Lyborn.

Here.

Mr.

Moody.

Here.

Dr.

Rennie.

Mr.

Seagrape.

Present.

Mr.

White.

Present.

Mr.

Wolf.

Dr.

Aldrich.

Present.

Mayor Collins.

Present.

Dr.

Emmons.

Present.

Mr.

Eskabel.

Here.

Two members are absent.

We do have a quorum.

Thank you.

Would you join me in the Pledge of Allegiance?

Collective Labor Bargaining with Cheyenne Professional Firefighters, International Association of Firefighters, Local Number 279.

Well, welcome back.

Thank you for having us, Mayor Collins.

I think the last time we were here, you guys wanted to uh step aside for just a little bit and then come back and uh so maybe we should start there.

Absolutely.

Um to go with it, I do have uh a statement I'd like to give if that's all right.

Good evening, Mayor Collins, City Council members, Chief Dyke Shorn and all other city staff here.

First off, on behalf of IFF local two seven nine, I want to thank the city for bringing forward proposals at last week's meeting.

We appreciate the work that went into preparing those and continue this process.

I also want to reiterate something our local has already made clear to the governing body in prior remarks.

A fair market correction to wages remain the top priority for our membership in these negotiations.

When we talk about peer departments, we're not simply referring to departments of similar size.

True peer comparisons incl include departments that share similar staffing models, similar call similar call volume and service demands, similar operational capabilities, and importantly, similar geographical labor markets.

Cheyenne sits directly adjacent to the front range corridor of Colorado, and firefighters deciding where to work often compare departments within their regional labor market.

Because of that, front range front range departments are relevant comparisons when discussing firefighter compensation.

Because this involves some technical details, I'd like to turn that portion over to Vice President Jason Lindsay, who explained those calculations further.

Thank you, President Thomas.

Thank you, Mr.

Mayor.

Come through.

First off, I want to commend you for reaching out and identifying our peer department's last meeting.

That shows that you recognize the direction of the citizen, the direction the citizens of Cheyenne.

Good.

Yeah, talk away.

Right on it.

Okay.

That shows that you recognize the direction the citizens of Cheyenne are expecting us to move in.

Taking these comparisons seriously helps us position our department to become one of the strongest along the front range, not only in skill and service, but also the labor market.

When we simplify the comparison between peer departments, our Colorado peers ultimately ranks highest overall.

Their high, higher career wages and uh more than offset Wyoming's stronger pension formulation.

Wyoming does have the strongest pension structure of the three, but at all salary levels provided, it does not produce the highest combined compensation package.

So with that, I have a little something we can walk you through.

The top portion, and I don't refute any of your math.

You had it spot on.

However, uh, when we equate our wages out at $90,000 at the ultimate uh retirement, which you figured on the highest three for a firefighter, their pension, the equivalent level in Colorado and Billings is a disparity of seven to 17%.

So over that time, you are correct.

Cheyenne does ultimately have a higher pension valuation.

But within a 25 year career, um, Montana ultimately does make 157,000 more along with Colorado's 382,500 more.

So with that, over matter of time, um, I once again I want to applaud you on your math and everything that you did.

Total compensation packages that you find was um needing to be addressed, didn't quite get there for us.

So if you have any questions, we can walk you through this.

Thank you, Jason.

I'll give you a second to review that before I continue on.

Jason, if you could walk me through um like Loveland, you're talking about um 105,000 salary.

I'm not sure exactly where that came from, but let's let's say that that's the case.

Correct.

When we when we go through if I can if I could finish my question.

Um we have a Wyoming firefighter making 90, a Montano firefighter making 96,000 in a Colorado.

Did you do any sort of um uh factor for the higher cost of living in those communities?

Um, as far as um, as we we talked about earlier, um, property taxes, um, sales taxes, um, income taxes.

We went directly off of services provided by rank, time, and service within the $90,000 realm based off of our salary that you started with.

So that shows the variability between us and them.

So if I was to walk on down to Levin or up to Billings, that's the equivalent of what they would be working with.

Okay, thank you.

Words matter, and I don't I don't know what it means when you say it's even equivalent.

Is that you know if I'm making $25 an hour here and I'm making $30 an hour there?

Is that the equivalent you're talking about?

Correct.

But you're not making any distinction for the um the cost of living, like I said, in Colorado, excuse me, Montana.

Um, what is it at 5.65% income tax?

Uh, the differences in property taxes, those things, Colorado 4.4%, um, those types of things.

Did you guys get a chance to factor some of those things in?

And is that what that number reflects, or is that just the gross salary?

That's that's the entire gross salary.

Okay, thank you.

Go ahead, Ms.

President.

Thank you again.

Again, Jason, thank you, Mayor Collins.

Regarding specialty pays, this is another important topic that we feel we need to address.

Speciality pays are not bonuses.

They compensate firefighters for advanced training certifications and specialized expertise that expand the capabilities of the department.

These areas include such things as ALS paramedic services, hazardous materials response, technical rescue operations, tactical EMS support for our law enforcement partners, wild land firefighting, and community EMS programs.

Each of these specialties require numerous hours of training, education, and ongoing preparation to maintain proficiency.

For over 25 years, the city and the union have both recognized that this level of expertise warrants additional compensation.

That agreement has been part of maintaining a professional and capable fire department.

It is also important to note that not all of our peer departments provide these services internally and may rely on outside agencies or regional teams to provide them.

It is also important to note that not all of our peer departments.

I'm sorry.

Currently, Cheyenne is experiencing major economic growth.

A recent Cowboy State Daily article describes how data centers, business parks, and hotels are fueling a major building boom in the city, bringing large scale development in the area.

Projects of that scale bring opportunity, but they also raise expectations for the capabilities of the city's emergency services.

Maintaining that level of capability requires highly trained professionals and competitive compensation to retain them.

Regarding the cost of living, we did do find some cost of living comparisons for parts of Wyoming as well as Colorado with some of the neighboring departments that we cited in our wage comparisons.

Cost of living comparisons show that Cheyenne is not dramatically cheaper than the surrounding communities.

For example, Cheyenne is 5.1% more expensive than Casper to live in, 6.5 more expensive than Rock Springs, 4.2% more expensive than Rapid City.

And when compared to the front range, Cheyenne is 14.7% cheaper than Fort Collins, 11.5% cheaper than Loveland, and 4.5% cheaper than Greeley.

Even when accounting for these cost differences, the current wage gap places Cheyenne firefighters 22.6 to 42.3% behind some of these nearby departments, which demonstrates that this wage disparity cannot be explained by cost of living alone.

In closing, Cheyenne is entering a period of tremendous growth.

Industries are investing billions of dollars in the future of this city, bringing new development, new infrastructure, and new economic opportunity.

That growth is already bringing increased demands on public safety services, which will certainly continue as growth progresses.

Ensuring that Cheyenne Fire Rescue can continue attracting and retrain retaining the skilled professionals necessary to protect this growing community is a critical part of that future.

Because at the end of the day, this discussion really comes down to one simple truth.

Industries are investing billions of dollars into Cheyenne's future.

Making sure the firefighters protecting that future are paid competitively is one of the smartest investments the city can make.

A counter proposal.

I only have the one copy, unfortunately.

Let's try in the future to maybe bring enough so that thank you.

Well, this looks like your first offer, adding some language for inclement weather, and lowering your ask from six to percent to five percent.

Is that what I read?

That is correct.

To add to it, I have spoken with Chief Dyke Shorn.

We do want to work on the vacation in EOD language, but we do have some stuff that we have to figure out together because I had to get with him to find out what the intent of the language that was passed across was so that we can do so correctly.

Walk me through the cost of living numbers again for said Casper was 5.1, Rock Springs was 6.5 Rapid City.

And can you tell me where you got those numbers?

Absolutely.

Um the website that I could find that actually would cite the individual cities was best places.

It is a site just for comparing cost of living adjustments based on where what you make in your current city if you're planning on moving somewhere, what you need to make to maintain the same lifestyle of living.

What would you like to know specifically about which city?

There was a number rapid city.

You were going pretty fast, and I'm not that quick of a writer.

Sure, sure.

No problem.

4.2% for Rapid City.

Okay.

I got that.

Got that.

And then Fort Collins of Loveland and Greeley was 4.3.

Is that what you told me?

No, sir.

Fort Collins is 14.7.

Greeley.

Greeley is 4.5% more expensive than Cheyenne.

So I keep hearing you guys talk a lot about attracting and retaining professionals is one of the big challenges that you see we're facing.

Can you articulate to me why you feel that way?

Sure.

Give me one second.

So I'm getting you the specific numbers now, but um when pulling some of the front range departments, typically Cheyenne Fire right now, this test and uh the previous tests are averaging about 50 approximate applicants, uh, which is down significantly from from years past.

Really, Fort Collins and Loveland are significantly ahead of us.

They're they're well into the hundreds.

I believe Fort Collins was approximately 500 applicants for their exam.

They're pulling up the data I had earlier.

I believe Greeley is approximately 200 applicants and standby on Loveland.

I want to say it's approximately 300, but it's your opinion that because they have more applicants than we do, um that that puts us at some sort of a competitive disadvantage when it comes to being able to man or staff our department.

I would try to I'm trying to understand the the relationship between having um you know a larger city having more people apply for a job compared to a smaller city.

Um I'm just trying to understand the rationale there.

I I wouldn't say Fort Collins is 10 times the size of Cheyenne.

Um but yet they're getting approximately 10 times the applicants we are, so they're getting a much deeper pool to be a lot more selective and pull from most people in their early 20s starting off are gonna look at starting wages and use that very heavily to decide where they're gonna apply and where they're gonna go.

And then you also you know talk about recruitment, but then also uh keeping firefighters.

Um you've made that point every time we've met that that's the that that's a standard that you're really concerned about, and and I want to make sure I understand that.

That is correct.

Uh we do have a handwritten list.

Uh we did brainstorm and went through firefighters that we have seen leave to go to other departments in our careers here.

And we have 17.

That's 17 people that we trained and took that training to move on to other departments.

In what period of time?

That's hard.

Yeah.

I would say that's within the past 17 years.

I've heard your your comments about that.

And so um, as we were looking at uh where our our recruits come from, we have a current list right now.

And um let me just ask a quick question.

How many do you have today, Don?

So today we have 108 people on the list that um that that have applied to become a member uh for the test that we're doing.

And when I checked this list, it wasn't quite that high, but um I find it interesting that we have um 11 states have applied.

Um, Colorado, Wyoming, Washington, California, Illinois, Oregon, Nevada, Utah, Florida, Texas, Nebraska, all looking to come to our department.

Um, and we've not really done any sort of um uh effort when it comes to uh out advertising.

We literally for the last years have just put a list out, so that we're we're we're doing that.

Chief Rogers, that's one of his um one of his areas that we're going to start.

They were down in Greeley, you know, here recently.

Right.

Um, so I know for uh you know that these other departments that you refer to have really aggressive um recruitment programs.

We've not done anything and we've been able to uh to fill our our our thing.

But now that we're starting to uh to work on that, we're at 108, it's not done yet.

Um we still have more time to go.

And so we're we're doing a good job.

And it's interesting to me.

Um, I asked uh the chief to go through and and tell me over the last 10 years uh how many people have left the department.

And actually, that number's 23.

Um firefighters have left.

And what I found was interesting though was um I was curious as to how many of those people would want to leave because of salaries.

And for me, as I look through that list, I see maybe four that left for money.

Um we had six that were terminated, um either during um the uh the class or for other things through their their careers.

Um we had six of them that uh that left to um uh go be with wife or you know, families.

Uh the wife got a doctor's job in Wichita, Kansas.

Um guessing her husband's gonna go with her.

Um, you know, so we had quite a few of those, and then we had quite a few actually that left to become fire chiefs, or you know, they hit their 50-year mark, like um uh uh KIP did and just and went to Texas.

Um, you know, Byron Matthews became our fire marshal, Tom and Nick became fire chiefs, you know, those kinds of things.

I don't think they left for money.

I think they left for opportunity because they were at that point in their career where they could leave and they had an opportunity to uh go be a fire chief or uh a fire marshal or something like that.

So in the past 10 years, I really only see about four.

We lost one to Sheridan, we lost a couple to South Metro.

Um we lost one right out of the academy.

That was pretty disappointing.

Um, but when I look at the rest of those, um one guy wanted to go be a farmer.

He had a family farm and left to go be a farmer.

Um, I don't see those as being a challenge for us from uh the perspective of the quality of the job or the the way that we do them.

So I mean, literally we have 108 people on the list now, it's still growing.

It's still growing.

I look at the history.

I don't see people leaving as a result of the compensation packages they get.

So I'm struggling to uh to follow your argument.

Uh when I look at just the gross numbers, they're just it doesn't, I don't see it.

And you know, if if we were losing, you know, five firefighters a year or something like that.

I think it's natural you're gonna have some attrition in any organization.

Um, and if you're gonna lose, you know, one firefighter every year or every couple of years.

Um, because their wife got a job someplace else.

I don't know that you could pay anybody any amount of money that would stop him from going to Wichita.

He's gonna go visit with his wife.

Um I would also uh point out that NTN is a um a mass application system where you can take one test and choose how many different departments it goes out to.

One question I would ask if uh Chief Rogers and Chief Dyke Shorn have available, how many people have declined offers that we've passed along to them.

And you may need to research that and come back.

I'm not sure you would have that off the top of your head.

But Chief, do you know?

Say since we went to NTN.

Sure.

So and then from our 17, we're looking back, 12 of them left for wages.

We did not include any retirees or people that were terminated in those 17.

They left for other departments or other career opportunities.

How many you say?

12.

I have the list here.

I don't I don't see it.

At least not in the last 10 years.

I see two going to South Metro, one going to Sheridan.

Um, we did lose another one to Sheridan, but his wife got a teaching job up there and he followed her.

Um, I'm not sure that I would consider out to be a salary situation.

We did lose a firefighter to Windsor right out of the academy.

I'm not sure if that was a salary thing or if that was uh um where his family lived.

I don't know the answer to that.

Um I'm just looking at it, I don't see it.

Scotty understandable.

And and I'm saying this with all respect as well, mayor.

Uh we did lose one to Castle Rock, one to is that Littleton.

Yeah.

Little Ton ultimately turned into South Metro.

This is different from the other two people that left for South Metro.

One went to Mountain View, one went to Evans.

Really?

And actually, there is a third South Metro individual.

And one went to Kansas.

His wife became a doctor.

Yep.

I wouldn't consider that to be a wage situation.

Having known him, I I know it was a wage situation.

His wife got a job as a cardiologist.

Um I'm guessing it was a wage thing for her to get a job as a doctor, but um, I'm guessing the firefighter went where she could get a job.

Anyways, I'm I look at here um over the last 10 years, and we had 23, but uh we can go through the list.

I mean, you're right, Sheridan, South Metro, South Metro.

Um we had a person went to work for the IAF.

Um, that was uh there, a termination.

Um, we had one that went to Castle Rock.

Um, but the reason for it wasn't so much money, but it was they had family down there and wanted to be closer to family.

Uh we had one hired by the Scots Bluff Nebraska.

I think he's still the chief down there.

Uh we had one that resigned for family reasons, uh, one that went to the state fire marshal's office, um, one that became the fire chief of Evans uh fire district.

Um we had one that his wife became a teacher, um, one that uh the family was farmers and he went to be a farmer.

I mean, as you go through this list, I don't see um, I don't see a crisis that tells me that we're not a competitive fire department, honestly.

And you know, again, I would I would just share with you.

Um, I think that uh if we're gonna compare our our peer groups, um, I think what we need to do is compare uh the salaries based on the way that that our communities are funded and the way that uh Greeley and Loveland and some of those other places have the resources that they have to pay for firefighters is different than what we have in Wyoming.

And um we can't we can't compete with that in a lot of different ways, and then not having a cost of living um adjustment to that, I think points out that that is not a fair comparison.

And then not having the cost of living adjustment to that, I think points out that that is not a fair comparison.

So I would like to, I would like to at least if we could today try to agree on what our our peer group is.

I think if we could do that, I think we could find a way to move forward.

I I'm at this point, I have to disagree with you on how a department is funded is is a factor we are adequately funded.

The city of Cheyenne is adequately funded.

Each each city, each municipality, each state does their funding in different manners, but we have funding in Cheyenne.

The MF, the financial municipality financial analysis showed that we are sacking away money and we are in excess of what our our revenues are higher than anticipated and our expenditures are lower than anticipated.

We're in a position, a strong fiscal position to do this market adjustment or the step toward it.

And so that's your position.

Yes, sir.

This peer group is is what you're gonna stick your hat on.

Yes.

Respectfully, sir, I can't do that.

Okay.

I mean, we're in a position where again, I appreciate what you're saying about revenues.

A lot of those revenues are building permits and and one-time funds that uh are not reoccurring.

And I think when we talk about um spending money on wages, when we talk about reoccurring expenses, we have got to find reoccurring revenues in order to do that.

Um we have some some folks on the front range right now that have made some very large um pay raises, hoping the recurring revenues would come and they're not.

And now those communities are doing reductions in force.

And I just I just don't think that that's a healthy place for Cheyenne to be.

Um, you know, we've offered uh a 3% starting January 1.

We've offered another 3% um in this um in this contract, um, you know, which would be a six percent increase this year, which is higher than what inflation would be.

And um, you know, I think that's a fair offer.

So uh reviewing uh estimated annual revenue impact just from the meta data center alone.

Excuse me.

Electricity franchise fee is four to six point five million.

Property tax share is six hundred thousand to nine hundred thousand.

Sales and use taxes are two hundred thousand to six hundred thousand.

Other fees include one hundred thousand to four hundred thousand, which brings an increased total city annual revenue estimated to be between five and eight point four million.

Where did you get the franchise fee of what would you say that was four million dollars?

Um the electricity.

The electrical franchise fee?

Four million dollars.

That's referring to the electricity tax.

Yeah.

Numbers aren't even close to being accurate.

As they're coming online, not even close to being accurate.

Do you have those numbers?

No, but I can get them.

I mean, we've looked at those numbers or we've estimated those numbers, and it's not even close to that.

Okay.

Um, I think the the thing with data centers are things like Meta and Microsoft.

We have 12 data centers right now that are they're all operating.

And um, you know, I think if we were to take the uh uh the franchise fee for all of those combined, um, maybe it's four million dollars.

So I think maybe somebody needs to do a little bit sure, check their math just a little bit.

Um, and the other thing is is those aren't online.

We don't know if they're gonna be uh fully up in this fiscal year or not yet.

Um I know they're they're planning on bringing those first two buildings on, but there's a really long ramp up that goes with those.

Uh we just met with, I can't remember who that was, and you know, they'll they'll energize uh sometime in this upcoming fiscal year, but it'll take them a very long time before they're actually operating at 100%.

And uh, you know, once those revenues are are actually here, um, we'll see that.

And, you know, as as we've talked about before, you know, we're hoping that we'll be able to do something for all of our employees, uh, but we're not quite there yet.

Um, you know, I think the expenses and the uh the challenges come first and the money comes comes after that.

Um they've not even started putting the equipment in the buildings yet.

Um so we're we're getting there, but we're not there yet.

I guess my question is what are the plans for the addition the massive reserves that the city currently holds.

Do we have a plan for them?

Is there a tipping point when they're gonna be utilized?

Yeah, I think uh to be honest with you, I think we have quite a few plans of of one-time projects that we hope to spend those dollars on over the next years.

Um, I don't think our job is is just to hoard money and to put it in place.

But I think that I think the thing that would absolutely be the wrong thing to do would be to say we have money in the bank, so we're gonna buy a car, and we have enough money to make the first eight months worth of uh of payments, and we're gonna hope that our revenues will catch up after that.

Um, I think we have to have reoccurring revenues that we know are here that will allow us the ability to uh to be able to ensure that we can make those payments ongoing.

Because when we give you um a pay raise or we've changed your compensation, it's not just for this fiscal year, it's every year going on.

At least I'm assuming that's what you expect.

And um, so in the past when we've had situations where we've had extra money and we've been able to do that in one-time bonus, which I've talked to you guys about in the past.

Um, but to make an ongoing reoccurring revenue expense, there has to be um we have to have revenue in order to do that.

And I can understand where you're sitting on that side and you're saying the city has you know this many days of reserves, but those reserves are not reoccurring.

They like I say, most of those things come from one-time things like building permits, uh things like that.

That's where those dollars come from.

And I don't know that we'll have another one next year or the year after that.

So um we we've talked about this for the last six years.

You know, one of the the cornerstones for us is recurring expenses will be paid for with reoccurring revenues.

And when we can identify those, then we're willing to put those into play.

Okay.

Yeah.

Um I went to your best places.net website, and I used their comparison.

Um, and so I plugged in the ninety thousand dollars for Cheyenne.

Um, and then you gotta talk into that microphone.

I mean, right into it.

Okay.

So I went to the best places.

And I plugged in the ninety thousand dollars that you have um here on your sheet.

Um, and it says here the cost of living for Loveland is 13.1% more expensive.

You would need a salary of 101747 in Loveland.

So then you have a salary of 105300.

So then if I take the 105300 and I subtract the 101747, which is the comparable wage, that gives me 3,553.

If I look at the 3% raise that we offered you, that's $2,700 on the 90,000.

Um, so there's almost no difference between those two.

Well, we'll have to take a look at that and get back with you on that one.

Did you do the others?

No, I just make some copies.

Council like to get together and talk for a minute.

I would move to um adjourn for a few minutes to discuss seconds.

Mr.

Seagrape to go into executive session, seconded by Mr.

I'm being told the uh they're having a little trouble hearing us up on on top of the dice there, so we got to really talk into this microphone.

I'm guessing people in the audience probably or the online are probably having the same struggle.

Chris, I we did the little math while you while you were gone, and the ninety thousand dollars salary.

One of the things that uh maybe we could agree on is every one of our firefighters um gets EMP pay, and it's not considered a specialty.

Would you agree with that?

So really ninety thousand is ninety-one thousand one hundred and fifty-eight dollars.

Where are you getting that firefighters making ninety thousand dollars?

Your example um here, your salary, the ninety thousand dollars salary, really, every one of our firefighters gets that it's not a special pay, it's part of their salary.

Would you agree to that?

The majority of them do, there are some daytime personnel that do not.

So if we if we take that ninety thousand dollars, add in the EMT specially pay and a three percent raise, that means that you'd have to have a hundred and six thousand one oh thirty-one in Loveland to equal that, which is a thousand dollars more than uh what a Loveland firefighter's getting now.

So if we do that, the website that you you guys used as your example, which was called Best Places website.

We did that math while we were gone.

Um, and I added ninety thousand, added the MT space because all of our platoon people get that.

And um, and then we added a three percent pay raise to that.

That would mean that uh a firefighter in Loveland, Colorado would have to make one hundred and six thousand thirty-one dollars in order to equal the same pay that we get here.

And um, you know, I'm thinking a ninety thousand dollar salary is one of our uh lieutenants, most likely, right?

It is.

And then when we went through and we did an analysis of all of our lieutenants, and I can't remember there's seventeen or eighteen of them, and um, and we did the average.

The average salary of lieutenant was a hundred and nine thousand seven hundred dollars or something.

I can look it up exactly.

I give you to the penny.

Uh, we're making 109,000 today uh on a base salary of just over 90,000.

And that's our average for our lieutenants.

Um so again, I I would tell you, I don't think our firefighters, um, even when we compare them to your example of Loveland, are underpaid.

So is that including overtime as well?

Because I don't know how you're getting from 90,000 to uh was it 109,000, I'm I believe.

Uh sir.

We just looked at every every every firefighter in each rank.

How much did they make?

How much do they make?

And so that's that's everything.

Their specialty pays, that's everything that they get, their total compensation, not including health care and all that stuff, but just the things that go into their paycheck.

Uh the average lieutenant makes 109,000.

So that's above the I can tell you to the penny.

1097.

Yeah.

Yeah.

And so if we could if we just use base salaries, um, we're there.

Um, but we know that our firefighters make more money.

So base salary, I would say is at 29, 20 hours worked per year.

Not not including overtime.

That's not, I don't factor that in as a base salary.

And uh let's say we agree with you in that $90,000 plus your EMT pay plus a three percent raise, you're paid, uh, you're gonna be paid about $900 more than a Loveland firefighters based on your example.

That's today, and our our firefighters.

Um so again, I appreciate your arguments.

Um, but I think as we do with we do this math, I think our firefighters are are compensated fairly.

And I'm willing, and I think our city council is willing to agree to add that 3% to this and to go through the list of the other things that you're asking for, and we can we can talk through those things, but um if I may, please.

So you said that is a company officer's base wage was 90,000.

We can factor in specialty pays and all of that.

A Loveland company officer starts at $124,524.

$124.

$524.

So if you put in $109,000, but you were there.

I hate to think we're gonna be at an impasse just because we can't agree on who our comparables are, but I feel like we're there.

I would say a company officer's job is the same here as it is in Loveland.

So base wage compensation for us is starting at about $91,000, I believe, for company officer.

I'll have to look up the exact number.

But Loveland is at $124,524 for that same base wage.

You don't happen to have their union contract, do you?

I can pull it up.

I do have their that wage from there, the wage comparison study, though.

I think there's so much more to the compensation for a firefighter.

Um, I would love to be able to see that, but I'm not even willing to agree that they're a peer of ours, right?

I mean, I just think Loveland, the the the way that they can fund their communities is so much different.

It's difficult for us to do.

You know, it's interesting why why we were gone.

We looked and you know, the turnover attrition rate in the front range of Colorado is 7.5% in a fire department.

Uh nationally, um, you know, or a normal attrition would be considered to be maybe around four and a half percent.

Um, according to your numbers in the last 17 years, we've lost one firefighter a year.

Um, I mean, we are so far below the uh the attrition rate.

Um, I think this argument over um, I mean, I appreciate why you're making the argument, but I don't think it holds water.

Um, I mean front range of Colorado, they're losing 7.5% of their firefighters every year.

We're just not.

So it just makes it just make it shows me that money's not the problem here.

So I rough math shows about a $33,000 difference for a company officer starting wage and leveling versus here for the same duties, generally speaking.

I do consider them our peers because their approximation and size is the same as ours.

Each department in each municipality are going to be different where their tax base comes from.

Loveland is a regional fire department.

Um, right.

I believe they are, yes.

Yep, they're a regional fire department.

So they're they're funded by the county, the cities that are all around that area.

Um within the city, their career, generally in the county, their their combination or volunteer there.

Not exactly what I read, but okay.

Um, the tax base in Colorado is just different.

The attrition rate is different.

Um, we just don't have those problems.

And so I think we're looking over a solution looking for a problem that just doesn't exist.

Okay.

I I would disagree that compensation for the same job is is similar, even when you do a factor in uh the cost of living differences between you're in Loveland.

You know, I'd be willing to look at that for Cheyenne and Casper and Laramie and Sheridan and Rock Springs and Campbell County.

I mean, I think those are areas that we have more in common.

But um, but when it comes to uh places in Colorado, I just can't get there.

And the Loveland is is the example you brought up at the last meeting, correct?

What I said was in that you guys are asking for those to be your peers, and I just asked, you know, there's a lot more to um the cost of living and the way the communities are funded than there, and that I think we can we can look at Wyoming as our peer group because we understand and we can compare because we under we are under the same basic other than Gillette, we're under the same funding mechanisms.

We're municipalities, we're funded by the state in the same way.

Uh we get the same sales tax percentages as everybody else does.

I mean, it's we get the uh 30% of the first four pennies, and in the future we'll get 38%, even though the state put in there we can't use it for salaries, the the additional wanting, but we can figure that out.

Um I think we're we're we're we're similar, and I think that's that's what we should be we should be focused on on those issues.

Okay.

Um regarding to Wyoming departments, and not conceding that the front range are not our peers in this discussion.

Uh our cost of living is higher, but yet we are below wages for compared to the majority of our peers in Wyoming.

Okay, and what makes you say that?

So I'm hearing you say we're we'll agree that our our peers are the Wamming departments?

No, I did not uh concede to that.

I we still have a geographic closeness to northern Colorado from the same labor pool as they do.

So Casper firefighter currently tops out at 80,679 a year.

We're 76,000 for 2494 cents after our three percent COA.

So we're still behind Casper.

For an engineer.

Can I ask off you for a second?

Is that a total compensation, or is that just the um just the base salary?

That's base wages for for both departments.

Fair enough.

Casper engineer tops out at 88,072 after our 3% Cola, or 83,862.

A lieutenant at Cheyenne Fire Rescue tops out at 93,730.

And a company officer there tops out at 100,054.

Actually, it's 100,329, but that's okay.

Battalion chief for Shine Fire Rescue.

Tops out at 106,717.

Casper tops out at 109,192.

So I do want to point out an advantage to having a probably a more diversified funding mechanism here than they have in Casper.

We have a higher cost of living.

We are the largest department in the state.

We have a higher call volume, and that call volume continues to increase.

We provide more services than those departments.

We should be leading the way as far as our peers in Wyoming, then at that point.

Let's use Casper as an example.

Added pays in Casper, when you look at their um their contract, they have one.

And that is if you want to act in a if you want to be an actor.

And if you work a 12-hour shift, you can get 5% added to your hourly rate of an engineer, a captain, or a BC.

Those are the only pays that they have.

I would oh, go ahead.

Sorry.

Go ahead.

What were you going to say?

Which is our largest specialty pay by far and is a much superior EMS service.

But we're comparing those positions in Cheyenne and in those other communities.

And so you're right about the numbers that you just said.

Like let's say a base firefighter, you know, tops out in Casper at $80,900, and it's $76,634 here.

Now I've included the money for the EMT.

I mean, that's part of our part of our salary.

But I think the thing that's really interesting to me is when we compare those salaries, and then we add in all the specialty pays that a firefighter would get.

The highest being, excuse me.

The highest being a paramedic, which is obviously a very challenging certification to acquire and requires a lot of continuing education to provide that level of service.

Like I spoke of earlier, are extra things that our firefighters have to work on and certify for each one of those, which is why we created specialty pays over 25 years ago, because we felt that that should be adequately compensated for that additional, those additional duties.

So I looked at a firefighter and all of our firefighters combined.

Our firefighter at firefighter rank is $84,345.

That's the average food that our firefighters make today compared to the $80,000 that was uh shown in in Casper.

Um but at the five-year rank, it doesn't matter.

Engineers, um, you talked about engineering in Casper making how much was that again, please?

I'm sorry, what was the number you were asking for?

Uh I got it right here.

Casper engineers top out at $88,000.

Correct.

Our engineers average $99,040.

And I'm asking once again, is that including overtime?

It includes everything that they make.

Okay.

And those are extra hours work too.

That I agree.

Um, but it includes all their specialty pays, everything.

Um we look at uh lieutenants, that number is 109,000.

Battalion chiefs is 126,000.

So I mean, we can we can take out the overtime.

I still think you're gonna find that our firefighters um are making at least as much as the Casper people uh departments do.

So Casper doesn't have anything else other than if you want to act as in a in in an acting role.

We have lots of other ways that we compensate people.

They just expect that we compensate people to do that.

So we're not comparing apples and apples.

And when we compare apples and apples and we look at all the different things that go into uh the way that we fund and pay for our firefighters, um, they're there.

I would say overtime skews those numbers drastically.

Even if that number were say eight or ten percent, we're still right where we need to be uh in comparison to the numbers that you see in in these other communities.

I mean, Casper's 80,000, and we're we're at what um that's at the very highest level that they can get.

And I did that same analysis for all of the departments, and and what really surprised me was uh with the exception of uh Sheridan, almost nobody has other other things.

So when we're comparing just what you see in the contract, but not adding in all those other specialty pays, I think it really skews the numbers.

And you know, when when I look at at the way we pay our firefighters and what our firefighters earn, um I feel like we're very well compensated.

Are you also accounting for the cost of living differences between Cheyenne and those cities?

You know, I had not done that.

Um it's not a very large difference, but it's probably something I need to do.

I agree.

It does not.

Chris.

Yes, sir.

Umber just told me the numbers I gave you when I talked about the average firefighter, it does not include any overtime.

Those are just their wages and their specialty pays uh across the board.

So these numbers are calculated based on base pay, longevity pay, EMT pay, shift trainers, education pay, acting pay, uniform allowance, physicals, holiday pay.

Um which brings us to the total hourly uh compensation.

And then we run at based on total hours worked.

Only six members have uh shift trainer specialty pay.

And they provide a lot of extra work for that that pay too.

They do $3,880 a year.

So to answer your question, it did not include overtime.

And then regarding Casper's numbers, is that including any of their holiday pay or any of those that included with our with the calculations for our wages?

It did not, but the numbers I that I used, well, I guess it did use uh a couple of things in there.

It did.

Yeah.

Still $84,345 versus $80,000.

Um much is holiday for an average.

Lieutenant engineer.

Amber, would you be willing to provide us with the the sources and the numbers that you have for that so we can review it?

So if we took out the holiday pay and everything, we would be at 106,000 for a lieutenant in the Cheyenne Fire and Rescue versus 100,329 for a captain, which I think is a similar rank in uh in Casper's fire department.

Yeah, it's it would be an equivalent company officer on an apparatus, but uh is that taking out the overtime that's overtime in ours.

Uh the number we gave you earlier did not include overtime.

Oh, okay.

It was just I misspoke, it was just specialty pays.

I mean I'd like to get copies of those numbers so we can review them.

Please.

And just doing a quick math in my head, even if we were to agree that the cost of living is 5.1% difference, we're still right there.

That's why I want to review those numbers though and make sure they're they're correct.

Do you have any other examples you want to share?

Right now I'm I'm good where we're at.

I once again I want to take a look at the numbers you guys have.

I'm sure one of the factors that's skewing that is paramedic specialty pay, which is significant in those wages, and many of our company officers are paramedics, which is a as I spoke before, higher level of EMS care.

But it doesn't change the fact what they're getting paid, does it?

We paid for their education.

Um, we pay for their continuing education, their training, all that stuff, and we pay them handsomely for that job.

Um doesn't that seem disingenuous to say because they're paramedics, we can't count them, even though we are paying them for those services and we're providing a higher level of service, we're compensating them for that.

And 40% of our firefighters are paramedics.

We can't ignore that fact, right?

We're giving our firefighters an opportunity, most departments don't do, and we should be being congratulated for that, not held back because of that.

I'm not wishing to hold us back.

I'm wishing to compare apples to apples.

We're providing a higher level of service.

Um you guys remember how many hours it is for paramedic school?

You remember now that you're in it?

You can tell.

So to become a paramedic, you have you remember how many didactic hours?

What's that?

Approximately 500 didactic classroom hours, 250 clinical hours, and 500 vehicular hours.

That's additional time that isn't necessarily compensated for.

Are you telling me they're not getting paid while they do this?

No.

They're they're getting their regular salary if their schedule happens to overlap with those classes while they're on duty.

Yes, they get that time off, but they don't get overtime for any additional hours for training.

They have a large personal quit commitment to doing this.

But wouldn't you agree that we're also making a large commitment to uh not only the safety of the community, but also to those firefighters, we're paying them their salary, we're paying for the education, and then we're paying them $7,700, two dollars and sixty-six cents an hour for the rest of their careers.

Um, to do that.

And that also goes into what they get paid in retirement because their highest three are going to be recognizing that um that effort.

Um, I would think that that would be looked at as something that would be a positive and uh not a negative.

And when we're doing the comparison, um you can't you can't change the fact that those firefighters in those ranks are getting paid that much more money.

They are for additional training expertise and services they're providing.

I applaud the city for going ALS shortly after I joined this department.

I think it's a great thing.

It shows that we're forward thinking for our community.

But those higher services do uh deserve higher compensation, which is why it is its own specialty pay.

Okay.

Something more to add.

City council is willing to basically do a six percent increase this year, three percent.

We've already done three percent more, and we're willing to work with you on some of the other things that are on your list.

Um we're hoping that you might be willing to uh to move forward on that.

You can submit that proposal to us.

We'd be more than happy to look at it and move forward for that.

We've already done that.

Okay.

Yeah.

So you're not changing your proposal at this time?

No, sir.

Okay.

Um we're gonna have to discuss it further.

We're probably gonna move to adjourn at this point.

We're running out of time, so we probably do need to schedule our next meeting.

Uh, because I think our is it the 25th is our last day?

Correct.

So why don't we find a time?

My schedule is wide open except for the 25th.

I do, I will be out of town for that.

And that was something I had scheduled some time ago.

We have a city council meeting on next Monday evening.

Next Tuesday evening.

Would that work for the governing body?

What is it?

Next Tuesday evening, the 24th.

If you want to wait that long, yeah.

That's it.

That would be the final night.

Yeah.

We could meet tomorrow night, but then I'm gone on a Thursday, Friday, Saturday, and Sunday.

So are you guys available tomorrow evening?

We have a quorum.

Tomorrow evening.

Jeff, are you available?

I believe so.

One, two, three, four, five, nice half six.

Mr.

Moody?

We could meet tomorrow evening, at least on our side.

Yeah, we can make that.

Okay.

We'll need to uh notice that right away then.

Um, because um that will be a challenge for us on uh a notice thing, but we I think we do need to get together.

So okay.

I'm sorry.

I'm assuming six o'clock.

Yeah.

Thank you.

Mr.

Zeger, could I have a motion to adjourn?

Mr.

Mirror, I would move to adjourn.

Second by Dr.

Aldridge.

All those in favor?

Aye.

Those opposed.

All right, we're adjourned till tomorrow evening at six o'clock.