Afternoon State University for the programming of the BCSP students.

Nine thirty AM right now.

Um, Director.

Yes.

Here, here, right?

I need a pen necessity about the draft for board.

Okay.

Authorizing the director to enter into Mike is off.

I'm going to do it again.

I'll say it over again.

Ordinance number eleven sixty-seven, twenty twenty-five by Council Member Cornwell and Griffin by Department of Request.

It's an emergency ordinance authorizing the Director of Public Health to accept a grant from the Ohio Environmental Protection Agency for Financial Assistant for the Origin of the Division of Air Quality.

Authorizing contracts with various agencies or entities and for professional services, determining the method of constructing, rehabilitating, renovating, replacing, or otherwise improving air air monitoring sites, and other similar structure on city-owned and city lease properties, and authorizing the director to enter to one or more contracts for improvements.

Finance director, as well as the law director.

Health director, sorry.

Thank you.

So this is our working legislation where the Ohio EPA funds our division of air quality, it funds uh three programs within our division of air quality and about 30 personnel.

The programs are enforcement section for Ohio EPA violations, our engineering section for those permits for the polluters uh through Ohio EPA, and our air quality monitoring section.

Uh with me to my right is Brian Sokolowski, our chief of air quality monitoring to answer any questions.

So this grant and the money, when you say a grant, you should put a dollar amount.

Yes.

The dollar amount is 2,725,620 per year.

And it's uh three-year grant.

Two year, I'm sorry.

This is for two years.

Two years.

2025, October 1st, 2025, through September 30th, 2027.

I see it.

I see it in the in a in the legislation.

And we've had this uh going back twenty something years.

Uh since since EPA seventy came about in the 70s.

Since we became a uh local EPA office.

Hundreds of years.

Right.

And you with this equipment and services in here, um, you do you air monitor it, and can you explain the process?

Uh of particularly for air monitoring or kind of as a whole.

As a whole.

Uh yeah, so you know, uh director mentioned we have three three sections, um, and it's very very uh circular on what we do.

One section benefits another, and we we all use the information to to coexist.

So the permitting section or engineering section, they write the permits for facilities.

So any facility that that mints uh into the uh ambient atmosphere, you know, from anything from a gas station to the big steel yard to uh dry cleaning facility, they all require Ohio EPA air permits, permits to you know to operate.

Uh so we write those permits, they're issued by Ohio EPA, but we actually have engineering staff that write the permits, and then they can authorized an issued by the director of Ohio EPA.

Um, then uh we have enforcements which enforces those permits, so they go out and do inspections.

So we have a required number of inspections for our grant.

So you know we're receiving these these dollars, we have to do things.

So we have a required number of inspections we have to perform.

Uh we do complaint investigations as well from like open burning to asbestos complaints.

Uh if you have an odor or dust in your neighborhood, we investigate those complaints for all of Coyote County.

Um, and then if there's violations in the enforcement section would um you know issue notices of violation to get these companies into compliance or individuals.

And then the monitoring section, we monitor the air uh to see if we are meeting the uh the ambient air quality standards that are set out by USCPA for the criteria pollutants.

If we're if we're not, then that tells permitting that they need to make stricter rules to um for us to come into compliance to meet those standards.

You have systems in place, and you have so many people to monitor it, yeah, yes, you have the equipment to monitor it.

Yeah, yeah.

So we have 12 people.

I'm on a I've managed 12 people in the monitoring section.

We have operators, we have technicians, uh, and uh we are heavily heavily audited.

Um so we we are audited by the state EPA, they come auditor comes around multiple times a year and make sure our equipment is meeting all the specifications.

We have US EPA comes in, does audits uh through the probe and side-by-side audits, and then we then every um three years, uh USCP has a special team, they do a something called a technical systems audit.

This is uh all out, it's a week long, they bring multiple people in and they go through everything.

They go through all your certifications, all your paperwork, you know.

And now in order for us to operate um one piece of monitoring equipment, we have to have almost a dozen uh NIST certified pieces of equipment to calibrate and make sure, and these these instruments have to pass rigorous testing every week or every month, depending on what's required by USCPA.

So that the jet the data we generate is good valid data.

And so when you get the d data, say for example, in neighborhoods like uh Huff, Glenville, Fairfax, you know, how is the air quality and and um in those communities?

And do you have um sensors in those areas to monitor the air quality?

Yeah, so the we have a we have a couple different networks going on.

We have the Ohio EPA ambient air monitoring network, which is a stationary sites.

Um a lot of those are around the industrial valley, and we have a couple out.

We have one in uh uh uh Collinwood area, we have another one uh in at Near Road down in Warren'sville.

Um, but that's something we saw is we don't have anything because we place these these sites, these monitoring sites where is modeled based on facilities, roadways, you know, a number of industry where we're gonna get the highest readings.

We don't want to monitor an area where there's no facilities, that's gonna give us not good data, it's not gonna give us relative data to what's actually out there.

So a lot of our monitoring sites are around the industrial valley, which we have a lot of our highways and we have a lot of our um uh industry.

Um now we had a want from the community to to get neighborhood level uh data.

So we actually put out the grants uh through the IRA uh and we were awarded half a million dollars.

We say IRA equity that's the inflation reduction act.

That was the federal uh inflation reduction act that they put out opportunity for um local offices to to enhance air monitoring and environment environmental justice areas.

So we went went for it and we got it.

We were awarded half a million dollars.

So yes, uh so we have rolled out about 26 of the 30 sensors.

Um you can access these in real time on our dashboard.

We've worked with uh the city, and it's on the city's dashboard.

Um I can send out a link.

Uh but this is this is neighborhood level data.

Um we this is throughout the city of Cleveland.

These sensors are uh located.

We'll have about tw a total of 30.

Um we're trying to fill in the gaps right now.

We have a pretty good spread, um, but we're looking at the map as a whole and saying, okay, where do we have some missing areas?

And we're kind of using those last four or five sensors strategically to fill those gaps.

Yeah.

Sir to the chair.

Uh in two weeks we'll have our operational oversight meeting.

So that map and that data is included in that operational oversight meeting.

And yeah, and that and uh this is something we we push out um to uh to and we have meetings um quarterly with the public.

We've sent out invites, we go to libraries, we put out our flyers, we want people to go to our because it's called clean and CLE is what we call this program, and uh you know we try to push it out that this is this is a uh resource that um residents have to see hyperlocal data for their for their area.

No, and all these are in the city of Cleveland, all the sensors.

Great, great.

You know, I asked my um assistant to reach out to your department, you know.

I want you to come.

I was talking about the environment at my last community meeting.

You know, we don't have a lot of trees in in my community, and uh we need more trees to deal with the air quality.

I mean, you know, in meetings, people ask me to um get trees cut down.

You know, and uh and I know why.

Because the roots that tear the sewer line up, and you have to spend a lot of money, 1500 to 2,000 dollars, whatever.

Council man, it's that tree that the city put out there.

So we wouldn't have that tree cut down, but it's tearing it up.

Then I go, but Miss Jones, I hear you.

Here's my issue.

We need more trees because of the environment, we need more trees so we can deal with a lot of health issues.

You need trees, but um we don't have that many trees.

Uh it's really about planting the right type of tree.

I think you know, it's you know, I don't know, sustainability has a tree expert, I think.

Yeah, no, yeah.

Oh, yeah.

Oh, uh well, urban forestry.

Urban forestry.

You know, so it's it's you know, don't put the the massive oak on a small plot right next to sewer line.

It's you know, but it's about planting the right size type of tree, size tree, right?

You know, it's got proper growth and that fits this our natural area.

So yeah, you know what?

Let me ask you this question, you know.

You know, I like to walk, well, you know, we walk for a long time in my neighborhood.

And um we gotta figure out a way to have vegetation, trees, uh, and vegetation in the urban areas more and these side lots, open space lots, that we have merigos, and you know what I'm saying, snap dragons, and that you have urban farms more that that way um air quality is better.

Yes, yeah, our you know, this funding uh specifically doesn't you know allow us to do that.

But I I agree, yeah, absolutely.

That's that's a very important.

Yeah, I look at I look at those things, and like, man, we need that stuff.

That's that's very, very important.

And I always tell my residents, you know, when I talk with them about the environment, they mainly talk about when I call you about um groundhogs and raccoons and skunks and those things.

But I told them as a council member, I need to be uh talking about the environment as well, and and tell you guys about other things that you're not thinking about that we need to work on also like the environment.

The environment means a whole lot to uh my community, the city, the state, the country, as well as the planet.

Yeah, and you mentioned you know, I know our outreach section will be happy to come out to one of your meetings to speak.

They do it, they do it frequently, uh public safety meetings at other, you know, different wherever they're asked.

Yeah, so just let us know.

Probably um director visits some of the schools also, the elementary school children.

Yeah, we probably could cultivate them about the environment when they grow older is part of their um DNA.

Yeah, you know, if we had that in the uh in the school system, and they could learn maybe coloring bugs or whatever the case may be to talk about the environment as as well.

Absolutely.

Any any questions on ordinance number 1167 2025?

I I have a very vague general question.

It's got nothing to do with the ordinance though, so through the chair.

What I mean as an as an expert on air quality monitoring air, is it the case that in Cleveland the winds mostly travel from west to east?

Yes.

That's all, thank you, Chair.

I just wanted verification.

I've been saying this.

You have put it on record.

So with that, so in the summer, it's we're we received more southwest.

Right.

And then in the winter, more out of the the northwest.

Yes.

Uh so um, so that's what you know, we get that lake effect snow as it comes from the northwest, the the summer southwest winds, and that's those southwest winds actually how we get those high hose on days.

Uh because the the lake has an opposing force and it builds a ozone builds up along the lake.

Okay.

Where's training come from?

What your training come from.

You studied where?

Um, so I studied in Cleveland State.

I got a bachelor's degree in biology.

Um I focused on environmental, and then um started off um entry-level position and enforcement section, and I spent 10 years there before I migrated over to the monitoring section and the chief position being available.

So that's good.

Groom within.

Yes.

A lot of a lot of a lot of training.

I'm gonna ask you about that.

So you guys constantly train.

Oh, yeah.

Training is ongoing.

Yeah, we have um a state state state required training programs, you know, the city has their own trainings, but um Ohio EPA in order for us to keep our contract, we have well-trained individuals.

So it's not you know, about when we have people come on board, they have certain trainings they have to perform, and then there's uh kind of a uh a progression, you know, they get more difficult trainings as they go through their life as as an air quality person.

I know you had to get training, and it was ongoing, and uh so that's good.

That's very very good.

And a lot of the trainings are offered from the USCPA.

Uh the US CPA will develop the trainings, and they have a whole portal that we can access and attracts all of your training experiences.

You guys go um to training sessions, or do they come here or what we do?

All the above.

All right, there's virtual, in person, um we'll do a combo hybrid ones.

People come to us because we work with specific vendors for our equipment.

So they'll come and talk to us about the equipment and how you know how some of the idiosyncrasies are not operated.

So director, all this idling out here with vehicles.

You know what I'm saying?

Yeah.

So what we put in a budget request for this year to give us some funds for those signs that you've legislated, uh, and we're putting together a strategic plan to address that.

You know, we talk about businesses and companies, but what are we doing to lead the way?

We have to show the way that we deal with idling um with police cars, with um because we have we own so many vehicles that that we have to show the way we're not idling.

Right.

And then we can try to change people behavior because it'll point straight to us.

Right.

Okay.

Yes, council lady.

I just want to say, uh, could I have your card?

I was uh with a young man yesterday um out of the neighborhood, and he um has interest in air quality, climate change, and he asked those specific questions.

What is the city doing uh regarding that?

And he just turned 18 and he has an interest in following that path in his career, and by this coming up, um I told him that will um see where um who's in that position so he can have some direct answers to uh his questions per se.

Okay because he wanted to know what the city was um providing or uh what type of programs um they have.

So I'd like to have your car after the meeting.

Okay, thank you.

I like absolutely come on up, Patrice.

What threats or risk do you see dealing with um air quality in the city of Cleveland, state of Ohio?

Where do you what do you think is headed in our direction that we could try to do prevention?

Um there's you know, outside of the overall, you know, the budget, you know, the looming budget, you know, reductions and stuff.

Outside of that, um, you know, we've uh USCPA, you know, based on um uh scientific studies, they they looked at the 2-5 standard.

That's the fine particulate standard, and they determined that the the standard was uh two it wasn't strict enough, it wasn't uh uh low enough.

So they reduced the standard from 12 micrograms down to nine micrograms.

Uh as uh as a result, and then there's a many year phase in uh of this pro of how this works.

They just don't say it's it's it's starting now.

There's a long phase in of this, but uh us to we're gonna more than likely be in non-attainment for that standard.

Currently we're in attainment for that fine particulate standard, um, and then we'll have to find some some uh interesting ways to to get into compliance with that.

Uh you know, uh so these are all things that you know we need to um work with the state, work with the feds to come up with plans on how we're gonna uh achieve attainments.

How do you think you can have the citizens to step in to help?

Uh so it's um well, I'm sure we'll have some activities, you know.

Uh open burning is a big source of fine particulate.

Uh so reducing that's um it's but the main reason why we're not attaining is not because people are open burning.

It it's you know it's a lot of people don't think of it, but it's a lot of the farming that happens when they to when they turn over the soil in Indiana, Illinois is in that, and you know, and even Ohio, those that fine particular travels you can travel for thousands of miles.

Uh just this year we had Sahara, Saharan Desert Sand uh being picked up on our monitors from Africa.

That's it.

That's how far it travels.

It's that fine.

It's uh it's 2.5 microns or smaller, and um so uh the width of a human hair is 70 microns.

So that's how fine we're talking of articulates.

Um so it gets up in the upper atmosphere, and I can get it can travel very, very long distances.

So and it can get deep into your lungs and into your bloodstream, and there's a lot of adverse health effects.

So it was part of us all.

Yes.

Wow.

So I'm there with with that, and um we'll discuss it when we come back for the operations.

You know, we're gonna do an operations, you know, vice chair, we'll meet with them over the day.

Yeah, yeah, we meet with you guys this week.

I have to huddle with the vice chair and uh meet with you beforehand.

Or maybe even after this, we could go out of 15, 20 minutes, and then we'll move forward.

All right, thank you.

You guys, thank you, young lady.

Introduce younger.

My mind is still messed up.

I'm trying to act like uh I'm not messed up, man, but I'm trying to you know you guys got you.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

With me to uh my left is Patrice Minor, who is the director of community health initiatives at the Cleveland Department of Public Health, and she has been leading our strategy implementation for tobacco retail licenses, which you all know thanks to legislation that you passed in April, will go live at the end of this month, six months after the legislation was passed.

And so uh we are very excited to uh present what we've been up to and uh pass it over to Catrice.

Thank you, Director, thank you, Chair, and thank you, committee, for having me here this morning.

Director of Community Health Initiatives.

Yeah.

So I did prepare a few slides.

I'm not gonna spend a lot of time on the first few slides because this is just rehashing things that we've already done.

In particular, the legislation that was passed, the comprehensive tobacco legislation.

There were four pieces.

The piece that I'm going to talk about today is the fourth piece, which is the tobacco retail licensing program that was passed along with the others in April, and there was a six month time period in which the implementation was to take place.

So that legislation goes into effect October 13, 2025.

So a week from today.

Okay.

I also won't delve too far into why we passed this legislation, but I will say that this provides us an enforcement tool on the local level to go into retailers and make sure they are compliant with the licensing requirements, and it also helps protect youth because part of what we'll do during these inspections is have underage decoy buys that will see if retailers are complying with tobacco 21.

And part of the reason why we want to do this, and this was part of the legislation in the whereas, is that most people who begin smoking start before the age of 21.

So the who there is not a comprehensive list of all of the retailers in the city of Cleveland, but we've done a lot of work combining and cleaning different lists that list different retailers.

So our estimate is that there are about 800 retailers in the city of Cleveland.

And a tobacco retailer by definition basically is anyone that sells tobacco products within the city of around 800.

We were at 500.

Well, we didn't have a count, we were guessing, and so as people have been coming in applying for their certificates of occupancy, and I mean you've seen them in our neighborhood, so that's anywhere from 500 to 800, and and they fluctuate.

They're opening, they're closing, but as soon as the new ones open up, we've been able to stop them because they don't have an occupancy permit.

Oh, okay.

So we're we're getting the word out.

53 per ward.

53 per per ward.

That's awful.

Yeah.

Oh man, that's terrible.

Yeah.

And the state, you know, the state's gonna crack down.

Any retailer.

Yeah.

Right.

So that's grocery stores, that's gas stations, that's pharmacies.

There's a number of individual bars, lounges.

That's right.

And we're talking all tobacco products, cigarettes, cigars, vaping.

Okay, so this is a great opportunity to educate retailers and the public as well.

So again, thank you for having me here.

But I do want to go over some of the other activities we've been up to to try to get phase one done, which is educating the public and retailers.

Um, so the first thing that we did, which we actually started in June of this year, is I created this palm card, and I created a website, a registry for our retailers to pre register for the tobacco license so that we can start getting an idea of who is a tobacco retailer.

So this palm card we worked with case, they had some summer interns, they were doing store audits, and they would go into the retailers and do this direct contact with retailers telling them about the tobacco retail license and then also giving them an opportunity to scan the QR code to register and become a part of our registry.

So I brought a couple or more than a couple copies.

Yep.

On the back of the office, some of the council members.

Yes.

On the back of these cards, there's also you can have all of these, and we can get more printed.

And I have more in the office.

On the back of the card, there are frequently asked questions.

So what we found to be asked by most retailers is how is this different than the cigarette license that they have that's from ODH?

And that was the learning curve that we have to get around for a lot of individuals.

They think they already have a license, and we needed to explain to them that this is a new license and it's different than what they've had previously, and in addition to what they have.

So that was part of the direct contact that we've had with retailers, and then the registry is ongoing.

So these palm cards that you have here will also go out with some of our staff.

A lot of the retailers that sell tobacco are not new to us.

They are either licensed food vendors or they're contact, we're contact in contact with them for some other reason.

So we're going to continue to try to get retailers on the registry so that we have a better idea of who to contact once the application opens.

We did this previously when the state did new signs for no smoking, they changed them to no smoking, no vaping.

So people were clear that that included vaping.

We would go to retailers, we would give them copies of the new signs and talk about vaping and smoking and how they can be compliant.

So what we'll do in the next coming weeks is have the sign that they have to have when we do inspections, which is saying that tobacco is not we cannot sell tobacco to anyone under the age of 21.

We'll give them copies of that sign and talk about the legislation too and the requirements.

So we've also done some billboards to the left is the first run of billboards that we did, also on the bottom right, those are two examples of billboards.

We have them throughout the city.

We're trying to reach every corner of Cleveland to make sure that everyone is aware of the requirements.

And then we also are going to do some radio ads.

We have done some social media spots, we have our website where we have information about the tobacco retail license, and we also have been in contact with some industry and some chain retailers, like your marks or your family dollars, those retailers.

They account for about 10% of the tobacco retailers in the city, according to the list that we've pulled together so far.

Um it's yard sign season.

You see a lot of yard signs.

We put yard signs out for folks very similar to these palm cards where they can scan and register.

Yep.

And we'll put more out for folks to see and scan.

On the registry, too, what I think is helpful is that if anyone has a question, they can put the question there, and then I respond to those questions directly.

Umce the application opens, we'll have videos with how-tos to show them how to complete the application.

Um, we'll do some webinars, workshops, and I'll even do office hours for retailers if they have questions and need assistance.

Um, we'll do a webinar somewhere in November or so once the application opens virtual, a virtual webinar.

Because what we would also ask is the public to help.

They can call 311 if they have a tobacco retailer that they frequent if they notice after December 31st when they have to have their license that they don't have one, they can let us know so that we can send our team out there to make sure that they know that they need to be compliant with the TRL.

And that's the end of the presentation.

So you know, um we could uh as you walk my neighborhood with me, director.

Yes, we could um go out and talk to the residents in the Glenville community, um talk with some of the key stakeholders, you know, um March and Epour Center, Jay Glenn Hill Center, um, uh Glen Village over there.

Um we'll put together a plan by me being the chair and we'll um show the way um the first of the year, you know, and uh it doesn't that way we could see and and we'll be able to look at lessons learned.

I'll um invite you with to some now.

You know what would be really cool.

Um I'm thinking right now, I'm just thinking about it.

When we do coffee with the cop or jazz and coffee with the cop, we bring in a lot of people for that.

They come in, and um we could put something on the side and discuss cigarettes.

We could do that.

Uh we could hit the rec recreation centers, Glenville Recreation Center, uh, you know, the guys are there because you got you have the audience there, the um barbershops, beauty shops, there's there, you have a captive audience there at those places and um and talk with people.

You have um the department of aging with Mary McEnare.

Um she's always putting on programs like walking sensations, which is healthy, and then we could throw those in to discuss that with our residents, even senior day, have um something there, uh um a booth.

So um I don't mind sitting out talking with you about you know, we could write up some things because it's gathering places and a lot of different um centers, you know.

And then they have also um a collaborative, different um CDCs and um not-for-profits, they have collaboratives.

You know about that, right?

Yeah, and we could talk with them and step right in.

Just offering some help when I'm listening to you how things can how we could benefit with this.

So I'm there.

Um I'm wide open to um to help.

I'll just ask you that we have our internal staff that go into different retailers.

We are going to work with building and housing who also go into different retailers to get these palm cards in their hands too to be able to give it to retailers directly.

But you know what?

Here's the thing with building the housing.

When they go into retailers, um the retail people are afraid of them, and so they're looking while you talk, you're talking with them, they're watching that um that inspector.

But if you go in with an outreach person or um like Famingos, they have community outreach people, or you go in with the council member, you you you're you're walking in, you know, used to what I'm saying, different and in a different way.

That building housing, they're looking at enforcement, and then that might push things away.

I mean, that's just where I'm at.

Because we really want to emphasize education first before we get into the enforcement piece.

No, PTAs is nice too.

You'll you visit the PTAs in the schools, make them partners, write down all key stakeholders and partners.

You can talk with PTAs because they have the children there, and um when you you have um parents, and you know, because you got to push it everywhere, all key key stakeholders, and it can tell you where some other things are that I might not even be thinking about.

So I'll walk you into the businesses, I'll I'll do that.

That's it's no problem.

But I with me, I'm kind of pushing back on not to say they're bad guys building housing, just you walk in with your council member.

I think that would be more that's easier with the businesses.

I'm open to going to additional board meetings, community meetings, wherever I'm meeted, I'll go and I'll talk to folks.

My colleagues?

Council member.

Okay.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

I do have a couple of questions, and I think I've got them down to seven.

So we're just piloting number three and three.

So I'll do three.

Who's an actual three?

I'll do two groups of three and we'll have an addendum.

Um through the chair.

Uh the uh list of applications already on file.

Is that available online, or can you just send us an Excel sheet that tells us which applications have already been received so we know which uh vendors in our wards are already on paper?

The chair, soon.

So the application is not open yet, it's going to be an online open application that will open at the end of the month.

Oh, I through the chair, I thought October 13th was when the uh retail license had to be on file.

The legislation went into effect October 13th, but because the license expires December 31st, they it basically a little grace period for this first initial licensing period.

So through the chair, what is the deadline for the license?

December 31st.

December 31st.

Yes.

Oh, so you open on October 13 and they've got till December 31st.

Yes.

Um May to December 11th.

Okay.

Probably perfect.

No.

Seven.

Just laughing.

That was over my head, sorry.

Um, so through the chair, so okay, so you'll have a growing list of retailers that are applying for their license and then being confirmed to their license, and we'll be that you'll let us know periodically what that batch looks like so that I can know if the stores in my ward are licensed up.

Through the chair, absolutely.

So because we have somewhat of an idea where the retailers are, we should be able to, once the applications come in, figure out where we have low compliance and then be able to be targeted in our outreach to those areas.

Okay.

And through the chair, uh, I think this was legislation number 167 for 2025.

So we do a lot of legislation of pardon me if A one, but yeah.

Oh, okay.

Well, we're it's it's a high number.

You still good.

Please forgive my memory.

Um, but uh what was there going to be a uh uh is I'm sorry, was there any interaction with the marijuana sales that we're seeing in the neighborhood that are popping up as well?

Tobacco doesn't include hemp products or does it through the chair?

Does it include hemp products or any other smokable it uh I don't know what you call things you smoke, smokable things?

Go ahead.

Well, so the tobacco retailers is encompass uh of those, so all those places that are selling like those marijuana derivative products are tobacco retailers because they're also selling nicotine products, right?

So we'll be in there.

Well, maybe you'll remove nicotine and traditional tobacco and continue to sell the other items, or they still have to register through the chair.

You know, the the state law has passed a bill through their their house uh unanimously and and hopefully we'll be passed through the Senate shortly.

That doesn't allow Delta 8 and all those marijuana derivatives.

Yeah, exactly.

7% THC and hemp products.

Where all of our state folks are saying we're very very close on that one.

So that will help a lot because that would be pretty tricky.

Yeah, so the so it it it gets the waters get muddy pretty quick, so through the chair, madam chair.

Um the follow-up then to that is what is the enforcement on this?

If if a retailer is not licensed up, how do we like how do we shut them down?

How do how do we enforce this and actually put an end to that uh business if they're not going to follow our laws?

So within the legislation, there's first escalating fines if a retailer is not compliant when any part of the legislation.

I believe the first fine is 500, the second fine is 750, up to a thousand up to the point of revocation of their license.

If their license gets revocated, then they go through the court system to have their buildings shut down, essentially.

So ultimately the city would board up a business if they're refusing to be compliance and have had exhausted all of their opportunities to become compliant.

Through the chair, yes.

Okay.

Um through the chair, uh, I heard you say that you were gonna have young people going in underage to it.

Do you need volunteers for that?

I think yes.

I have an ambitious 13-year-old who would probably love to enlist.

I don't know, I don't know.

It doesn't look 13, it's so crazy.

Oh, 19.

We sadly there are retailers who are selling to kids who are much younger, but the the legislation requires for 18 to 20 year olds.

So those are the age groups that we have to go in to do the underage five.

So we recognize it all under the federal laws, but not that's the okay, okay, okay, okay.

Sorry, through the chair, to you your point too, just so folks know too, we do hire we're hiring a staff person who is going to help manage that process too, because that can be a very um, I know that the police will send people in to uh uh to bars to purchase without being ID'd to verify that they're selling, you know, potentially the miners, and but we will need the same type of, but this wouldn't be a police activity, this would be your department.

Right.

Okay, uh next question.

I just silly question that crossed my mind through the chair.

Are are are cigarette machines still a thing?

Do they exist in bars?

Is this still just so happens I was at a uh Cleveland facility and I saw a vape um vending machine, yes.

So not only are there cigarettes in vending machines, but there are also vapes in vending machines, and those establishments too would have to have a tobacco retail license.

And those are very hard to monitor the age of the person using the machine.

Well, part of the legislation requires that if they have those items in their um facilities, that it has to be a facility where you have to be 21 and up to enter.

Okay, okay, interesting.

And it also has to be in a conspicuous place where you can see the actual machine, a staff person has to be able to see the machine.

I'm sorry, the machine has to be inaccessible to the public, or I'm sorry, that no, it has to be within view of the retailer or as an employee of the retailer.

It can't be in the back hallway with the city.

Can't be in a back hallway, you can't right.

Got it.

Okay.

My uh last question, uh, and I appreciate uh all your time this morning.

Um so you said that I think 10% of expected retailers are chains, the uh the the family dollars and and um that speedways or whatever.

Uh meaning that you know 90% are probably smaller, locally owned.

Um, and I think that I'm sorry, locally locally owned.

Yeah, right.

And and I think that for all of us, you know, corner stores are a blessing and a curse because uh there's always people in our neighborhoods that need places they can walk to pick up things like milk and bread, but we also know that the corner stores primarily make their profits on uh alcohol and tobacco.

This is probably their largest profit margin, and that's where they're sort of making their money, and the the milk and bread might be a side offering that might not even, you know.

Um so I'm wondering uh when I walk into a corner store, it is just wall-to-wall advertising for alcohol and tobacco.

That's like all you see, like there's there's a cookie over here, but there's like 15 ads for vape or whatever.

Um is it your opinion uh as an expert in the subject that uh there would be any benefit to reducing the annual um uh licensing fee in exchange for reduction in advertising?

Like if you kept your tobacco behind the counter with no advertisements for tobacco, and it was like it's over there, it's in a brown paper bag, and then if you if you really need it, we've got it, but we don't advertise it in exchange for a lesser uh licensing fee.

Do you think there's any way to like try to use this to reduce the amount of messaging that is put forth in a store to because I take my kids into a store and I hate to do it, right?

Because they see nothing but tobacco and alcohol ads when they walk in that store.

And I'm just thinking if there's like a way to leverage through the chair.

I think data will help with that.

I think after the tobacco retail license is in full swing and we have an idea of how compliant retailers are, I think that gives us an opportunity to be more creative and think of other things that we can do.

I know that flavors have been on the table.

That's something to consider.

Also, there are disposable dates that we might want to consider regulating just because it makes it a lot easier for you to engage in tobacco use.

Um we do have the legislation about signage, the outdoor signage can't be more than 25% of the window covering.

So I think right.

So I think once all four pieces of legislation are in place.

I think after we get some data to see what's happening, I think we can come back to the table and think of what else we can do to help uh teen use our youth use of tobacco products.

Okay, uh and then Mr.

Yep.

That was great.

Did you just mention one more thing?

To the director's observation.

Do you think that the state legislators, because when they did, you know, you think the state legislators would kick in and and knock down some um some of the items even that you just mentioned instead of us being able to bargain some kind of state.

We get blamed for what the state for what they do.

Isn't that true?

Yeah.

Yeah, they they go downstate, talk with the state reps or state senators, and they turn around and they tell us we can't do it.

And that was a great idea that you what you said.

But the risk, the state reps or state senators stepping in.

What you think?

What's your assumption?

Reps right now, we're trying to do something good and outlawing the sale of the marijuana derivatives outside of the cannabis just the registered cannabis dispensaries.

So we're hoping they get that done right when they get back in a session.

All signs point to hopeful.

Um, but they also, yes, three years ago they uh created a law that would ban local tobacco regulations like ours, uh, but we've won in court twice twice.

Um and that's been appealed to the Supreme Court, and we're you know hoping for the best.

We can afford that use.

Well, Supreme Court through the chair, so it's not, I mean, I don't know.

What I don't know.

Yeah, yeah.

All right, Mr.

Wrap up one more thing, and I know I'll duck it off my soapbox.

Um, but uh I I I asked about the advertising because I know that advertising has powerful impacts on on children.

Um, and and and even though we might not know that they're susceptible to it, I remember when I was a kid, I had a poster of Joe Campbell in my bedroom, right?

This was a cartoon.

You tell me by the lawn, right?

And the whole point of this cartoon was that kids like cartoons, and I had a picture of uh I had a poster of a cigarette ad in my bedroom for years, right?

And and I remember Congress outlawing that.

I think in the 80s, they said, okay, no more advertising to children, but you saw a a shift in in I think they even took it off TV, right?

Tobacco can't be advertised on television.

Um so like reducing advertising and messaging to children has an impact that we feel down the road, and if there's a way for us to get involved in that sphere, I advertising is just about the worst thing that was ever created.

Um, public education, wonderful advertising bad.

Um but uh I just wouldn't want to put that out there, and that's all, Mr.

Chair.

Thank you.

That's all good.

That was great.

So we're joined by Councilmember's life and councilwoman um House Jones.

Yes, Councillor.

Thank you.

Vice Chair.

I also realized these I don't think these microphones are actually working.

I think it's for us.

Oh god, if you don't mind just in the room, too.

Yeah.

Um I'm very grateful to see everything moving towards implementation.

And the biggest question or misunderstanding that I still have in my office is about the difference between some of the DZA and city planning requirements and then tobacco retail license enforcement, because we're having some of the previously existing smoke shops, the ones that were there prior to this kind of like uptick in recent years, that then it seems to me like they're getting they're being pulled into BZA, and I'm not quite understanding the grandfather what was grandfathered and what wasn't.

Are you touching the city planning work, or could you give us a primer for both the public and the business owners about the city planning aspects versus the tobacco retail license aspects?

That was long.

I'll start and then I'll have maybe director jump in to add more.

Um the conversation that I'm trying to have with the public is trying to referee to separate the two.

So I need folks to understand that the tobacco retail license is for anyone who has a who sells tobacco products.

So that's the big fish for me.

And for folks to understand that if that is the case, then you need to make sure that you are getting your license and that you're staying compliant with the law for that.

The smaller fish are those retailers that have more than 20% of their inventory or sales dedicated to tobacco products, so the smoke shops.

So that is more of planning and building in housing, and to tobacco retailers as a whole is more public health.

So while we are getting involved on some level during our inspections, checking to see if they have an um certificate of occupancy that says they are allowed operate as a smoke shop, most of that then goes back to building a housing and planning so that if they're not operating with that proper CO that they go through the proper appeal process through BCN.

Got it.

So I I just want to make sure I as we get the fan diagram.

The tobacco retail license is going to cover everybody who smells who sells tobacco, whether it is a small part of your shop like a gas station or a bar, or whether it's a large part of your shop like a smoke shop.

So everyone's got to do tobacco retail license.

But for those that are more than 20% tobacco that we might consider those smoke shops, we're we're also having the problems of like the illegal marijuana sales or hemp delta eight products.

There's going to be additional requirements around the occupancy permits for those smoke shops.

Is that correct through the chair?

Yeah.

Yeah, through the chair.

So every business in Cleveland needs an occupancy permit.

Um we found out for the smoke shops.

Uh well, you passed a law for the smoke shops specifically that they uh can't be within two miles of each other and X amount of feet from from schools.

And so it turned out after we passed that law that a number of smoke shops did not have any occupancy permit.

Yeah.

And so then they applied for an occupancy permit, they got denied because there are no space left in the city for another smoke shop, and then that's where it's going to BZA.

Um, but there are also smoke shops that have an occupancy permit that just says general retail because they got the occupancy permit before the smoke shop category specifically existed on the form, and then those ones are also going to BZA B C and A and probably have a better chance of winning their appeal because they've existed illegally at the time.

Um, but the one that got uh uh rejected uh uh a few weeks ago that um Mr.

Castell covered uh didn't have any occupancy permit.

Yeah, and so that's why you know they weren't following the law.

I wonder if for you know, especially with the operational reviews coming up, we might not have time, but I think it'd be good to have um city planning and building and housing come in as well to do their version of this just so that the public can understand.

Um, because I mean, and even like business owners, I'm getting a lot of requests and a lot of BZA applicate applicants about it.

So just understanding the landscape separate from the tobacco retail license is what's happening with city planning and the occupancy permits.

No way that could work because you're gonna discuss the um well, you have dishonority to to discuss the process.

So city planning is is in it.

As well as um building a housing, yeah.

Yes, we could bring someone from there and they can narrate it better.

Great idea.

Okay, any other questions on a tobacco?

Oh, I forgot.

Oh, council lady.

I'm sorry.

Thank you, Chair.

You know what is better with pretending for it's it picks you up fine.

Yes, you don't you don't need to you don't need to speak into that one the way you do this one.

Okay, this is that one will pick you up your good.

Okay, uh well, thank you, Chair.

I just want to just to echo on what you just said, basically about uh uh two-mile radius of the smoke shops um being in the you know uh in the neighborhood as well as the churches and the schools.

So that has already gone into effect uh since the April um alleged chair to the director.

Through the chair, that is correct.

And so uh for uh stores that already have an occupancy permit, they are legacied in uh for stores that don't have an occupancy permit, um, law passed, and by design, they're all scrambling to get their occupancy permit, and some of them are gonna be denied by the Board of Zoning Appeals, and and some won't, and that's up to the board.

Because um in the um Buckeye um ward for currently ward for neighborhood, uh, we have um quite a few smoke shops that are in within that two-mile radiance.

I have a lot of uh other retail owners that have uh called my office and also have called um building in housing and also um did their data sheet of uh their data sheet of the radius, how close one smoke shop is close to a church, close to a school, so they already sent that information in as well, and they wanted to know um when and how those smoke shops can be uh uh shut down because it has come a hair is um it is um it uh uh I'm just saying it's um it has come a nuisance, a very um heavy nuisance in the neighborhood of um especially Buckeye Road.

We got at least four uh within the um less than uh you know two miles and also close to uh yeah uh church as well as uh um uh integration school.

So uh they want to know um how fast can that be uh pursued uh through um building housing or through uh your department chair to the directory so our department as uh uh Catrice outlined will be very involved with that in coming months, and so that'll be a big help uh in addition to the work building housing planning, the work of zoning appeals and the courts are already doing, and then hopefully the state comes through because once the state says that no Delta 8 can be sold in these non-registered cannabis dispensaries.

I mean, they're gonna have no choice, hopefully the to shut down.

Yeah, so and they're gonna shut themselves down.

I mean, they'll go out of business if they're not able to sell that.

So here's uh when you um you guys you have systems to monitor what's going on.

And when we bring you back in later, may say for the anniversary in April, yeah.

You could tell us the uh issues and concerns, and so we need to amend something, or if we need to change something, because here's how I look at legislation it moves, it moves, is it breathes on its own and it moves, and so this is new.

So some things that we didn't think about that you have and you are documented and pre-testing and post-testing, really.

Pre testing is where we're at.

Post testing is where we need to be at.

You could tell us, and then we could uh uh amend the legislation.

Um data is going to be very important, like you said, it's a bit different for something to be on paper and then it be implied to the real world.

So we really want to see what's happening in the world world once the legislation is fully fully implemented and use that data to make any changes that we need to make.

We have a lot of known unknowns, let me say this known unknowns that are it's interesting to find out.

But but but here's the other piece.

If you see any issues and concerns before April, let's not wait until April to say this where we're at council members.

If you see it in January, March, whatever the case may be, where you're out there, you have to alert us so that we know that's our job.

Any other questions?

Yeah, we have one question, Chairman.

Yes.

Um the harassment is when you have employees that work in the smoke shop, and they have a tendency of standing outside of the um of the smoke shop, uh smoking, entertaining their um their uh supplies to encourage folks to come in to the smoke shop.

That is uh uh that is um heavy in the Buckeye area, it's constant.

You may see four, five or six uh employees or just customers that stand outside on the sidewalk in front of the smoke shop smoking um, and they are harassing uh residents that come and come down the street.

I'm just saying um it's um I know that's social and that's dealing with uh public safety, and uh um the um fourth district isn't involved with that.

I just say is that anyway.

I know that I know this is like uh maybe a uh uh open end question.

Uh could that be prevented uh per se of what you guys are doing of or dealing with the legislation or what y'all are trying to attempt to do to um to shut some things down because I know I get a lot of calls, fourth district get a got a lot of calls, and a couple folks also pursue to uh pursue to uh uh talk with their attorneys to assume these smoke shops because they have been harassed coming down the street, being encouraged to come into the smoke shop to buy things.

So I've been getting quite a few calls on that as well as fourth district.

So um could that be part of you guys getting out, walking and talking, viewing these smoke shops, knowing that they are intimidating and harassing uh a residents to encourage them to come into the smoke shop per se chair to the uh director or institution?

So two things.

I think um the tobacco retail license will give us more boots on the ground, so our public health inspectors will be out at least twice visiting these establishments and seeing what's happening.

So I think that's helpful.

The other part of it is that there is a license fee.

That's $500 per retailer.

That allows for us to do more retailer education, that allows us to hire additional staff if necessary, and what we want to try to do is make sure that retailers are compliant so that it doesn't escalate.

So if we have to use the resources that we gather from the license fee to put more folks on the ground doing that, I think that could be helpful.

Um anything short of that, I think there are ways to use the no-smoking within a certain distance of public buildings to disallow people from smoking outside of establishments.

We can definitely look at that.

Um I think there's definitely opportunity, and when the licensing fee will have additional resources to be able to address it.

That's that's good.

Thank you for that formation, Chair to the team, because you have other um retail stores that's next to these smoke shops that also call and complain about uh their customers are uncomfortable even going into their uh uh businesses to uh um to uh uh to uh um engage and that's a deterrent for them to even to um to uh uh continue to make a profit or uh patronizing their businesses.

So I get quite a few calls from the other retailers that call me as well as call them 4th district because they have now uh shown um has now shown that their customers are calling them, complaining about not coming to their business because not saying that they are afraid, but to go into their business and see a bunch of um people standing next outside of the smoke shop smoking, you know, their marijuana, thinking that's okay for them, but it's deterrent against another person who wanna come into another establishment that uh now is complaining about the uncomfortableness of them coming out into the neighborhood to be comfortable to go to that uh other establishment so they can do businesses, knowing the culture that we're dealing with now, per se.

So I'm just simply saying that all the type of different type of calls I'm receiving as well as fourth district, because we work together, the acting commander and I, um uh the previous acting commander and and uh and the current one now is just uh the amount of calls that we're getting to say what and how other residents are feeling or customers are feeling walking, going into other establishments.

So that's now a big concern to uh just to uh uh customers, period, that having that issue of uh uh being harassed uh per se or not uh per se.

So I just wanted to put that out there.

You could uh probably um send a uh say uh a letter to um to the health director.

I think we need to look at the um same kind of systems as liquor license where you can have a cooperative agreement, and so that would be a cloud on your um on your tobacco license, but you could set a cooperative agreement, and then if you don't uh you do this, you need to do this, you need to do that, and it starts documenting them so when they try to reapply and that way I think we have a better way of changing their behavior because that's what I do in my ward with um liquor establishments, no cooperative agreement with the um law department, and we may have to do that with this right here.

That's that's what I'm thinking.

That's basically uh has become a big concern with the smoke shops, and I have reached out to the uh to the um owners who run in the uh who's running the smoke shop, and I have reached out to the landlords who own the building who lease out the um lease out to the tenant who's running the smoke shop.

So we have had a huge conversation in order to um diminish this activity because now since that's had uh because now since it's a boterson to residents and customers, we see that's another level that we have to look at too as well.

So just to know how to just bring that together.

All right, thank you.

Um the law department, look at some of the cooperative agreements, take a look at it, and um we can use that as a model.

Um so, like what the council lady was narrating to us, we may have to use that, and then that way they could change their behavior and we can get in front of it.

I mean, that's what I'm looking at.

Um councilman, yeah.

Mr.

Chairman, I'm sorry, I forgot to ask.

Uh the $500 fees collected uh those were possible.

There is a fund that's set up in public health, and it all goes into that fund to fund okay.

So the so the collections will be reflected in the budget as revenue for the department so is it enough?

$500.

So the chair, uh, we were trying to be as fair as we could.

Um I appreciated Councilman Harsh's suggestion uh of $10,000.

But we're trying to be uh align ourselves with the other big cities in Ohio that have this program and across the country and not necessarily be an outlier on that.

I remember that, yeah.

Yeah, I don't want to.

You took a look at those numbers, yeah.

Yeah.

Um council lady, will you will you finish?

Yes, I you at a youth, councilman.

Uh good morning.

Uh through the chair to the team here.

So I'm gonna say, let me just start.

So at 714 this morning, I get a call from a resident regarding another issue regarding dumpsters, and I'm gonna go get through that later, but it's prompted me in this part to ask how many people does the Department of Public Health have to actually enforce this.

Sorry, um, through the chair to the councilwoman.

So this is under local code enforcement, and currently we have six local code enforcement inspectors.

We also have additional staff within community health myself and my colleague Prince who will be assisting.

So right now there's eight folks.

Once we start getting the license applications in and we have an idea of how many actual retailers we have, there will then be funding to hire additional inspectors if it's needed.

Okay, share to the team here.

Like, this is not gonna work.

This is this is we can't even enforce just the stuff that we currently have.

And I'm like I said, I know because I was prompted on an issue that's been going on for two years regarding the dumpster, and to think that to get even more work and not having the capacity, so what comp like there is just I have zero confidence that we are going to be able to effectively enforce this in any form, shape or form.

We we we just are not doing code enforcement, right?

And I'm saying through from the place of issuing um any type of citation violation, then taking it to the um leak any legal ramifications, it is just not happening for the current stuff.

So, what confidence um should Clevelanders have that this is actually even possible?

I just I do not see it.

And like I said, this is one issue, and like I said, I am going to take a very different approach regarding this case because I am going to outline just the level because it's not just the enforcement, it is the level of it's not my responsibility and not follow through.

I am very frustrated this morning.

And for as much as people will be in their feelings based on the commentary that I'm going to have, it doesn't compare to the lived experiences of Clevelanders.

It is shameful.

It is shameful.

And I I just I literally just do not know what to do because I am exhausted going to these doors to get rightfully so, right?

Talking about how horrible we are as a city of Cleveland.

And it is in particular as a result of public health and building and housing.

And the law department too.

It is not cute.

Like what confidence would we have that you all actually will be able to enforce anything to its completion?

It is just it's not this is what is the ideal size of the team that will be able to actually enforce things here for the duration.

Because if we can't get a dumpster right, I know for certain we are not gonna be able to do no smoke shops through the chair, see the council and uh councilwoman.

I feel your passion.

Um I will just not have passion.

This woman is living next to a dumpster on the street as it's a complete violation of our codes, and for two years, like we cannot get a dumpster right.

How are we gonna get smoke shops right with six people who don't have the capacity that are already overworked?

What is the plan to actually get real enforcement in the city of Cleveland?

You can go there right now, like this don't make no sense, y'all.

This is not even like even basic services, we are just failing our people, and we're gonna continue to fail them.

Six to eight people are not enough to just enforce the smoke shots, let alone every other violation in the city of Cleveland from food and health, things that are going on with with with um um like public health and housing, air quality.

I got another one on East 81st.

Like, what are we doing?

Through the chair, and it's for real, this ain't really you, this is all actually, I mean, no, no, no.

I mean, I'm just saying, but no, no, no, this really is not her because she is not, she is um Miss Minor is a person who is dealing, um trying to help plan the plan, but overall for for the structure of public health, if you're saying six people or eight people for the entirety of the city of Cleveland, how can we like how could we possibly think that this is going to work based on the capacity where we're having limited resources, ever increasing problems.

This is just it is not working, it is not working.

And just it's really not okay.

Go go go for it.

Go for it through the chair to the councilwoman and director will chime in, I'm sure.

One I want to correct one statement first that I made.

When I say six to eight people, that is just local quote enforcement.

I know you brought up issues about food licensing and other aspects of public health, air quality, those are additional inspectors and staff that we have within the department.

So when I talk about the six to eight people, I'm talking about those who would go out and do the two inspections twice a year for tobacco retailers, and I feel confident in their ability to do it because one licensing is different than addressing, say, highweeds and grass and other complaints that folks might have.

Um you have a license, there's a checklist of things that you have to have, and either you have them or you don't.

There's an underage buy, you either don't sell to a youth or you do sell to a youth, and there's a remedy and a course of action that goes along with that.

I I get that it's time consuming and will take some time away from our staff, and that we do have lots of challenges in the city, but I do think that it was the right thing to do to have a tobacco retail license once so that we can get into the stores, and I think it's the right thing to do to be able to use the resources that we have from there if we are short our resources to be able to um do the licensing, do the program and enforce the program.

She was just comparing and contrasting, and she was talking about the way.

All right, we push this, but when other people come to the table and they say they they're gonna put together a project or program, all things fall apart.

So you put together your program, and she's saying that they don't execute, and if they can't get a dumpster right, a dumpster, and I mean a dumpster, how do you feel that they're gonna get which what you're doing right?

Because she's talking about the way, and people just don't they don't execute.

And just to follow up, to be clear from the chair to the public health team, there's no there's no question about if it's the right thing to do.

What I am questioning is the actual ability to actually get it done.

So, in addition to smoke shops, what are the all the other things these inspectors are responsible for?

So is this under the local code enforcement?

Oh, sorry, through the chair to the councilwoman.

This is under local code enforcement.

So this team of six, they handle licensing the barbershops, laundromats, and hotels, they'll handle licensing of tobacco retail license facilities, and they also um answer nuisance complaints.

Um just follow us through the chairs and team.

What are nuisance complaints?

What tell me what are the chair to the councilwoman?

So that could be high grass, that could be uh rats and rodents, um molds, I believe is on the list.

Generally, folks will come to the public health department, and it may or may not be an issue that our team addresses, but we then connect them to the right department if it is not.

And just a follow up through the chairs and team.

Just in general, prior to this, on average, how many um licensing for all these people?

The the different licensing that we have to check to, and the nuisance complaints, how many do we do those in a year prior to the smoke shops?

Just so the chair, uh, we received 6,000 complaints last year.

Wow.

I think she asked about licensing.

Oh, okay.

I thought you meant nuisance.

And then for the licensing, yeah, no, no, for the and for the licensing.

How many through the chair to the thing?

How many uh uh other licensing uh that this team is responsible for, at least I'm assuming because someone had licensed, and I don't know um the annual check-ins or you know, the check is that how many licenses are is this currently team responsible for that through the chair?

Six thousand is inclusive of all that.

I I don't remember what it is broken now, but it's it's a pretty small part.

Most of through the chair, most of what we get we we're we're optimistic about 311 integrating in public health to help they have started that integration, but a lot of what you're describing is is a real problem.

Um with traditionally building housing inspectors have gone out with public health inspectors.

It doesn't really help the enforcement of law for both teams to go out there, but it does to make sure that it's documented and so where we are working with building housing with the 311 team to continue to get better in the in the court system.

But I will just say um, you know, I've worked in hospitals, intensive care units, emergency rooms.

I have never worked with a harder group of people than I have at the Cleveland Department of Public Health, and they're watching.

Um hey what you're saying, and uh, I mean, I just have never worked with a harder group of people.

So I I respectfully uh you know to disagree that that we're not doing anything and that we're incapable of it.

I didn't say for clarification to the chair to the um director, it's not a question of them doing it.

I say I do not believe that you all have the capacity to actively meet the the requests that are required for the city of Cleveland.

That's what I said.

So again, if you're saying you got 6,000 complaints now, you're going to add potentially five to eight hundred additional licensing and inspection on there.

I am saying I do not think you all have the capacity to do it well and to be able to effectively do it to the team and at the speed that people done.

It's not a question of people doing their job, it's of actually being able to set people up for success and to a standard of excellence that people in the city of Cleveland are not getting.

That's what I'm saying.

I'm talking exactly.

We do that's what capacity means.

You do not, that team does not have the necessary resources to be set up for success so that people can have excellence so that an issue like a dumpster doesn't take two and a half years to address.

That's what I'm saying.

So let me let me ask you this question.

And I yes, I am irritated, and like I said, I hope people are you you can be irritated through the chair to the director.

You can be irritated on my tone and what I'm saying, but you are not, we are the people not living next to the dumpster.

Like that's the thing, is like it's so frustrating.

It's like people get in their feelings because the way you talk to them, but it's like after I literally, I'm just wondering, I'm just looking things, I'm going through pictures, I'm going by this woman's house.

It's like what am I like?

What's the other option?

Like, because if I if I literally knew a different option to be amenable with people and be nice, because that's what people want, they just want you to be nice and like let's let's just work together.

What do you do after two and a half years?

I I don't know any other way.

Like I feel like this is how you have to force my hand to yes, do shame and pointing out all the deficiencies because people just like will be in their feelings, and then it's like, oh, well, I'm just gonna ignore her requests because oh, she coming and she hurt my feelings.

But let at the end of the day, it's not about me.

It's about Miss Bessingale who living next to a dumpster.

That's the issue.

That's the issue.

And nobody seems to actually take those types of things in consideration, and to tell me that we get 6,000 nuisance complaints a year, and we're about to add another workload of five to eight hundred, potentially or so, and they're supposed to do it on a semi-annual basis, if I'm hearing that correctly, and to think that, but you add that load to potentially a thousand and sixteen hundred additional like workload, and think that this group of six to eight people will be able to handle it with no real plan to act um increase the team members on this team is illogical.

Like there's nothing that can has been proven that that what is being presented is going to be successful.

Nothing.

You know where we don't have that plan earlier.

We presented a plan with that slides.

Let me ask you.

So I have said that we are going to add staff with the funds that come in from the tobacco retailer.

So you say staff like personality.

How many staff?

In addition, with those 6,000 complaints, many of them were duplicative.

Many of them were for issues that the public health isn't able to address.

Some of them are meant for animal control and they're coming through us, but some of them are meant for billing and what the council members we are working hard on improving the systems.

She do have a point with the workload.

So what you did, you right now you cross-training workers, so that you mentioned six workers, but they're doing and they have a workload, but they're doing other tasks as well.

Is that correct?

Let me let me finish.

I want to break this down and figure something out.

Because when we meet for operational planning and we look at labor, and you tell me a worker is doing one task, you gotta tell me how many tasks they're doing at that one worker.

Okay, because their workload might be going into tobacco shops, but you just mentioned you cross-train them.

That's called cross-training to do other tasks.

So, how can they get to that?

Right.

So, our local code enforcement staff, they're responsible for hotels, barbershops, and laundromats, and then they'll also go into tobacco retail shops.

Um, and it's that group that handles those in addition to nuisance complaints.

So there is the possibility other cities have used their food inspectors to also do tobacco retail license inspections, at least the technical ones, because they are going into a lot of those establishments already, so that's something that we could consider.

Um we're trying to get it off the ground to see where we need to go next.

There is plans to do hiring of additional staff as needed, and once the funds are collected, that gives us the resources to be able to do that.

Okay, so what you have to do when you look at your labor because you cross-training them to um all your you gotta look at that.

And and you don't know you give someone a workload, is it too much?

Is it too much?

So you gotta be able to before you come back to us to let us know.

Because best when you um director, I'm not pointing at you when you come to um budget hearings, then that way we know because she has a valid point there.

I didn't know I'm thinking here that you have six workers that focuses on the smoke shops, but I didn't know they're doing other tasks as well.

And with those other tasks, it's gonna be hard to, and then some workers they may not, it just might not be for them to do that, to execute to do that um that kind of worker, they might not want to do it.

I just want to echo director's point, like well, kind of echo his point.

It is not the easiest job to get people to work in public health.

It's a thankless job lots of times.

So we do want to take care of our staff.

So if it becomes overwhelming, or if it's a challenge for the staff that are dedicated to this work to do it, we're going to do whatever is necessary or within our means to be able to support them.

The last thing that I want to do, or the last thing that I know our colleagues want to do is just to be left out there to handle things on their own and feel as if they're not supported.

And part of what we're trying to do is put everything in place so that they feel supported and that they do have a support that they need.

It's difficult and it's difficult to address all of the issues that individuals are going to bring to the table.

The nuisance complaints that we get are largely unknown, and our staff, I think, go above and beyond trying to get resolutions for some of these issues, even when they aren't issues that public health would normally have to address.

You have to break that down because you're over there with the labor.

She bring up I'll yield to you in a minute.

When we come back, you take a person, their workload, is the councilwoman just narrated to you.

You cross-training them.

Can they get done?

Because then smoke shop people won't take us serious.

They say they're not gonna come here anyway.

They're not going to answer uh councilwoman Debbie Gray complaint.

I won't see them.

I mean, I'm I'm serious with that.

So you gotta be able before you put people out to try to figure it out the workload and you cross-training them.

Are you giving them too much?

And and are you a big team, councilwoman?

So this is the thing, right?

So through the chair to the team here.

So there was a violation that well, a complaint that went in on December 30th on July, well, January 14th, public health is saying there was no violation.

Then again, it was another one that was on March 24th, on March 27th, public health said there's no violation.

Meaning, and then they say it's not our responsibility, we only deal with if garbage is outside of the dumpster.

Even though every time I go past, I see garbage outside of the dumpster, and maybe I don't know what is happening, I don't know what's occurring, right?

And then in August, it said it, well, we only look for garbage, even though the placement is the placement of the garbage is the the dumpster is an issue.

And I'm like, well, in this process that anybody like coordinate, coordinate with building and housing, they're like, well, that's building and housing responsibility.

And like that's part of the frustration, is just like, well, if you know that is the responsibility of building and housing, you wouldn't get the complaints if we can just get to the source of the problem of moving a dumpster from the street, which is a clear violation, and it says something in there about at some point, let's try to get a court summons or something.

I know at this point on October 6th, no court summons has happened.

But you know, I again, like I said, waking up, you know, thinking you're gonna have a great week to wake up something at 7.14 in the morning to get um talk about how much I'm not doing when I know I'm doing all I can because I have no I have no control over all you guys directly who issues tickets, who helps to try to do the problem solving, and like I said, and to and if we can't get this fixed in two and a half years, I I am I just I am not confident that the team it needs to be some additional.

Is that issue still there?

It's yes, it is, it is the director, he's like I said it's not their responsibility, they only to deal with the garbage, which the garbage has been there, it was their last Thursday.

The dumpster legislation is building code, and so uh they do do a warm handoff, and I'm very sorry that this hasn't been addressed yet.

It's the parties, it's the garbage too.

But every time you have inspectors do the chair to the team, y'all say ain't no garbage there.

So I don't know.

It's like I'm going there, I take pictures.

We can handle the issue.

Yeah, no, no, no, director, we gotta have the issue.

Uh councilwoman, director, you're gonna handle the issue, director.

You give it over to them.

That way we can move on it through the chair.

We have, and we will, absolutely.

And do you know what address and I I could look through my emails to see if there's something referring to us, but yeah, forward.

Yeah, I'm I'm I'm gonna send it again.

Okay.

With the pictures.

But this director with me, with me.

I call all the directors.

If I can't sleep, they call me.

What time I'll call you in the morning?

Sometime two o'clock in the morning.

I said I need to have this done that to be done.

You know, you know, you see you see what I'm saying?

Wait a minute.

That's even even for me, like it's not it's through the chair to the team here.

It doesn't do me any good to call you all and a director, right?

It's just like what is the process to get it done?

Literally, something is happening.

If a resident is complaining about the dumpster and the garbage, every time the inspector comes there, they say it's no trash.

But literally, she calls me and I go myself.

I've taken pictures, I see the trash even outside of the dumpsters.

So there is something that is wrong.

Do you understand what I'm saying?

It's like, am I crazy?

Am I not seeing this trash?

You got it.

Am I not understanding?

Literally, this is just one issue.

And I'm saying is in the context of we're talking about inspectors that are going to now then be tasked with doing all of these licenses.

I again it remains to be seen, but I am not confident based on my experience thus far that the team there is not gonna be set up for success.

And they're all that's just and that's what I believe.

You don't just bring us to workload when because we'll we'll be back here within two weeks uh or a month to discuss the health department, and then uh we'll bring that in because very serious what she mentioned.

I'm very, very big on labor in a culture of labor, and I'm real big on execution also.

You have to execute to get it done.

Um, director, you're gonna we'll get to that part right there.

You know where councilwoman I call whoever can get it done.

I gotta get it done.

And I understand what you're saying because director, we get blamed for it.

If you go in the store to get a loaf of bread, might take you two to three hours to get out because everything is we we get blank, we get blamed for everything.

And so that's her frustration.

She's not upset with you guys, it's just the frustration.

She's trying to get it done, and then the residents jumping on her, and it make you frustrated.

We all feel that in there, College, because they don't they don't know you.

And director, the only time they see them is that he walking in the streets with me or come to my meeting.

But us, wherever we go, we get it.

So that's the frustration.

Are you um uh council member Slife?

Were you finished?

Um, Councilwoman, we'll take care of that.

And I'll I'll even do feedback and talk with the uh director.

I'll call I'll see you tonight as well as call you um tomorrow to see that we got it done.

All right, so we'll be cool beans on that.

Councilmember Slife.

And sensing that we're wrapping up, um, and this I want to I want to zoom out.

I'm not talking about an individual department, but I'm talking kind of uh the uh organizational level.

Um but you're talking about health, right?

We'll talk about what we'll get, but this is related.

Um are you okay with just that?

I'm okay, yes, I'm okay with this.

But what I want as we move towards operations, what I think we don't always have a sense of is are we when during budget hearings every year uh people will say to a director or commissioner, is this the budget you need to do the job?

And and quite frankly, I think it's an unfair question because uh you are given a budget uh by people who work above you, and you have to figure out how to do what you can with that budget.

So I think where we are constantly trying to figure out on this continuum of idealistic city services that are unconstrained by budgets and a pragmatic level of city services that are speaking to what our budgetary constraints are.

And I think maybe a way that what I hear from Councilman House Jones and my interpretation of it is a feeling that we are having an idealistic level of service, but we're not but our our staffing is more pragmatic, and what we don't know is you know, at any given policy, are we basing our sent, for example, a semi-annual inspection or review.

Is that idealistic or is that pragmatic?

And if it's idealistic, then we need to be putting more staff members towards it so we can get there.

And if it's pragmatic, we need at least need to be honest with people and saying that there are budgetary constraints that prevent us from doing more sooner and faster, and then it's for us to decide if we agree that that is a pragmatic thing we need to deal with, or if we need to find resources elsewhere, however that occurs to supplement.

So I I think as we move towards budget hearings or operational hearings, I'm always interested in understanding how we are determining staffing decisions and what that delta between what is pragmatic and what is idealistic.

And I I've been told by some that it would be a ineffective use of times to come up with ideal city services.

We're gonna plow every street, you know, within six hours of the snow ending, and we're going to fill potholes all in one week, and everybody gets leaf pickup, and we're able to do inspections on a quarterly basis.

Uh that it would be we we we would be spending a lot of time coming to a conclusion that we know is not feasible.

My worry is not going through that exercise, we never really have a sense of how we can most effectively spend the next dollar.

So if it's possible in operations hearings to kind of delve more into that disconnect between what we want and what we can afford, I think it would help us understand where we need to potentially be thinking about the financial implications of that in head counts.

We'll put in the operations that that labor and management as well as um the behavior, you know the hardest thing, you know.

I've been in management almost well all my life, and and I watch um a lot of um frontline workers, frontline workers.

How do you manage them?

You can even have your workload here, but if that worker is way out, let's say on Dennison or whatever the case may be, or you send them out their director to look at the um the dumpster.

How do you manage them?

How do you know they're gonna do it?

How do you know that?

I mean, you kind of know it might only take 45 minutes to do a certain task or workload, but they take two hours or three hours, and I know we have GPS or some of the vehicles, we don't have it.

So, I mean, that's the hardest thing when I look at it.

How do you manage frontline workers?

This is this out there, because it that's what you were saying, fall back on you guys also.

So you get the councilwoman because we get beat up, but then we come and talk with you guys, and then you have to try to manage manage them, but you don't know how to, and it's a culture thing, it's in the culture as well.

Um for people to execute.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying.

I mean, the people are doing their jobs, right?

I'm not saying there's not.

I'm not saying they're agree with the point that the state of the city is.

I'm just saying the council lady was saying for two years, or is it two and a half years?

That didn't happen.

Yeah, we're our teams texting me now, they're gonna look into it, and so as soon as you send me the information, we'll we'll follow up and see what with all those are.

Because I'm not saying they're not working, I'm not saying that, but but but you know when you're not the chair, it's not about people not doing their jobs, right?

It is the capacity to handle the volume of complaints that are coming into this system in an effective and efficient manner.

That is the problem, not the six people, it just needs to be more than six people, in my opinion, and based on the expectation of everyday Clevelanders, whether you are a resident, whether you are a business owner, whether you are a visitor.

It's it's not meeting what I would say like a baseline expectation of delivering on services.

It is too much.

We really need to look at how do we expand it so that because the this is how you have, I feel like this is violence prevention.

This is how you have strong, vibrant neighborhoods getting this stuff right.

When you are on a street where it's just trash everywhere, people's behavior reflected.

That's how that's why people start wilding out.

That this is what I'm saying.

This is where the frustration is.

It's like if we don't get this stuff right, all the other stuff, the other investments that we're making of you know, uh public, it don't, it does not work.

And it's not working.

That's what I'm saying.

That's all like, and I don't know.

Like I said, I am open to suggestions of how after two and a half years on something that I think is relatively simple, there are some challenges.

If there, and I know people want me to be a little bit more diplomatic, and let's just work with it behind behind the scenes.

I have tried.

And like I said, waking up to 7 14 a.m.

about all the things I am not in, is just nah.

I'm not gonna take that without sharing sharing the sharing the heat.

We understand.

We could be a two you you know what?

Looking at the budget book, and I'm thinking about what council member Slife was narrating to us.

Some departments, like I know they work very hard in health.

I'm with you because I could I we I stop by I see you guys, I talk with them, and you look at staff capacity.

Some departments when they tell us how much staff they need, and then when they come back around to transmit on, they might say they need 20 people, councilman's life.

And they only hire seven or eight people.

Okay, so it should be let's say in the third quarter that we transfer the money to the health department or to whatever other department.

Because why are we sitting on because you know labor is dollars?

The staff is dollars.

Yeah, um, health care, unemployment count, all that money we set aside to hire and train a worker, and the money is sitting there, and then that department, whatever that department is, they didn't hire the 20 people, they only hire five or eight.

What they're doing there, they're they're blowing labor dollars.

It's just sitting right there.

Well, they could transfer the money to you.

How's your staffing doing, Director?

So the chair fully staffed in the division environment for the first time in decades.

We think so.

Yeah.

But I agree.

I uh, you know, I think what you hear from the directors is the budgeted amount is the right amount, it's just filling those spots, and what you know, building housing can speak to what their struggles have been there.

Um and they're working through that.

But we've been able to become a very attractive place to work.

We're holding our folks accountable.

We we don't unfortunately have folks that pick up the trash.

Um, and so we're working with you know the limitations of of what we're able to do, and um, you know, we could always continue to work to make the system better.

We agree that it's not working for all the residents.

Appreciate it.

You know, you you know you come to my um committee community meetings, and you see they're jumping on me left and right about issues.

So, any more um questions?

So, council um lady, um the director said he will be on your issues and concerns, our issues and concerns because it affect the entire city, and um you'll see her tonight.

Is that correct?

Saying that, and no more questions, the health and human service and the arts committee is adjourned.