Okay.

Oh no, I'm gonna know this.

We should be able to menace health care workers.

I know.

Where's the um we have a gavel?

Is that 13 days?

Yeah.

We should be able to menace health care workers.

Thank you, Charlie.

Okay.

Hold this one.

Thank you for everyone's attendance.

The public safety committee of Cleveland City Council will now come to order.

Madam Clerk, do we have a quorum?

Would you please call the roll?

Present.

Present.

Present.

Thank you.

That will be ordinance number 1214 and ordinance number 1380 25.

So the first one, 1214, was pertaining to CPC and 1380 pertaining to um, excuse me.

Um that was my mistake.

1250 pertaining to towing.

Uh we're we need some additional information on that piece.

So those two will be held temporarily until we can move on.

So I'm going to deal with the first piece of legislation today, then we're gonna get into the presentation about shot spotter.

First piece up will be ordinance number 1380-25 by council members Griffin and Polencick to amend Section 621.07 of the codified ordinances of Cleveland, Ohio, 1976 as enacted by ordinance number 54-74, passed March 25, 1974, relating to menacing of a health care worker.

It was read for the first time on October 27, 25.

It went to the Department of Public Safety where it's indicated contents noted.

So I want to call upon our council staff who worked on this, and then we have some folks here from the health care industry who would like to comment as well.

Our attorney Jennifer O'Malley.

Would you care to comment before your husband calls me?

O'Malley would be an upgrade.

Just kidding.

Just for the chocolate.07 to increase the penalty for menacing a health care worker to a first-degree misdemeanor.

Um first degree misdemeanors generally carry up to six months in jail and or up to a thousand dollar fine imposed by the court.

And menacing is basically uh no person shall knowingly cause another to believe that the offender will cause physical harm to the person or property of such other person or member of his or her immediate family.

And the general legislative purpose is that the city wants to discourage and strongly penalize increasing workplace violence against health care workers.

This Akron has a law.

And with that, and Ibakun and I worked on this together, and we'll pass it over to the United States.

Ms.

Ubakun, would you care to comment?

Sure.

Use your microphone here.

Sure.

As um, as Jennifer mentioned, to discourage violence against health care workers, which has increase, and they're five times more likely to be victims of workplace violence, and the Cleveland Clinic has more information that they'll share about that.

Thank you.

We have two representative Cleveland Clinic here.

Would you care to uh introduce yourself?

And hit the button so it turns green.

There we go.

So Good morning.

My name is Dallas Moyer.

I'm the senior project manager for the Cleveland Clinic Center for Workplace Violence Prevention and Caregiver Wellbeing.

Good morning, Mr.

Chairman.

I uh Dion McCauley, I'm the chief police for the Cleveland Clinic Police Department.

And always good to see an old friend to tell.

So tell us, give us your um your spin, which your council president and I have talked about this.

Uh the growing concerns, and we I that's why I want to thank our staff for the work that they did.

The growing concerns that we have about health care workers under great stress to begin with.

We all know from 2020 what they went through, but then the unfortunate situations we find ourselves in or they find themselves in more and more where they're being threatened, where they're under great distress.

Um we had talked internally, and that's why we're taking this proposing this action today.

So would you care to comment?

Yes, I appreciate the time this morning of all the council members.

Just have a couple remarks we want to share.

So don't have to repeat everything, but there is a national epidemic of workplace violence in the United States, especially against our health care workers.

In recent years, professional associations, journals, and media outlets have amplified this violence against health care workers, revealing the challenging realities they face every day.

According to the 2022 Bureau of Labor Statistics report, health care workers are five times more likely to experience workplace violence in the workplace than any other private industry in the United States.

Of those, 69 percent of those workers have a workplace violence event that results in at least one day of work missed.

A 2022 Prescani data tells us that more than two nurses are assaulted every hour nationally.

Considering the staggering statistics, workplace violence remains underreported nationally.

The prevalence of workplace violence is no longer limited to our emergency departments and our behavioral health units.

It's rising across all care settings, including inpatient units, outpatient facilities, and community clinics.

Since 2023, reported workplace violence events against Cleveland Clinic Caregivers in the City of Cleveland is on pace to increase by more than 34 percent by the end of this year.

This year alone, one out of every 22 Cleveland Clinic caregivers in the city of Cleveland has reported at least one workplace violence event, with one out of every 43 experiencing physical workplace violence.

Extrapolate that to the nearly 130,000 health care workers in the city of Cleveland reported by the Bureau of Labor Statistics in May of 2024.

It's potentially 6,000 victims.

The psychological and physical workplace violence has a significant impact and number of consequences on health care workers and organizations, can also harm the pair the care that we provide every day.

Those who endure the violence are forever traumatized.

They miss work to recover both mentally and physically, and unfortunately, many of those compassionate health care workers are either leaving the organizations they work for or leaving the industry as a whole.

Nationally, we are looking at shortages amongst many health care worker groups.

Cleveland Clinic sets caregiver safety as a top priority.

This year we created the center focused on keeping caregivers safe and preventing workplace violence events, being proactive in both prevention and response, as well as ensuring every caregiver has the resources they need to properly and safely recover and return to work.

The center focuses on collaboration like this opportunity today, as well as other resources to ensure all of our caregivers stay safe and all of our patients receive great care.

As it was mentioned earlier, there are multiple different levels of uh advocacy going on currently in Congress over the past two years.

The American Hospital Association has pushed for federal legislation that is currently sitting with the House and the Senate.

Earlier this year, House Bill 452 went into place that now put a level playing field for all health care organizations to provide the same protections and cares for their caregivers.

And as for today's topic of discussion, I'm confident that I can speak for the 26,000 Cleveland Clinic Caregivers and the 130,000 other health care workers in the City of Cleveland and offering our wholehearted support in this amendment and change to the codified ordinance.

By taking action, you're singling your unwaving commitment that workplace violence should never be part of the job.

I want to thank all of our council members, Council President Blaine Griffin, Councilman Michael Palencic for your support.

And thank you for protecting those caregivers and those health care workers in the City of Cleveland who have taken an oath to do no harm.

But um excuse me.

For those individuals who have answered the call at health care and takes an oath to do no harm, so to make sure they can provide that care without fear of violence.

Chief McCaulay, floor is yours.

Chief, good to see you again.

Thank you, Dallas.

Uh Mr.

Chairman, it's always an honor for me to always have been an honor for me to come before this committee and now to reconnect with some of the members of this council that I've had the pleasure of working with for many, many years of my career.

It's great to see you all and glad to see you all are continue to continuing to do the work of this city.

In 2021, when I became chief of police of the Cleveland Clinic Police Department, I quickly became aware of the rate or the frequency at which health care workers experience violence in the workplace, both physical and verbal violence in the workplace, uh, as Dallas uh uh statistics has illustrated.

But what was really alarming to me and concerning was the fact that this had become tolerable by health care workers uh in the profession and that they uh didn't always report uh the statistic, and it is still an underreported statistic in health care.

What the Cleveland Clinic has done in recent years is to make a directed effort toward encouraging caregivers to report violence in the workplace, both both physical and verbal violence in the workplace and put systems in place in order to uh make simplify the reporting of that violence.

When an act occurs, a police clinic police officer will respond and take a police report, and that police officer will encourage prosecution.

And in addition to that, the next day a Cleveland Clinic detective will contact the victim and also emphasize the importance of prosecution and and and inform the victim that uh the clinic offers advocacy to help them navigate the prosecution process.

Uh what I believe that this law will do for my seat as chief of police is number one, it'll act as any law, and that is as a deterrent to misbehavior in the health care system.

But beyond that, it it allows for accountability.

That uh uh threats to any health care worker is no longer uh a smack on the wrist, but there are real consequences that attach to misbehavior in the workplace.

And lastly, I would say that it shows that it has a that this council and the hospital systems have a commitment to its workers to protect them as they go about the work of caring for those that are in need of health care services.

So, with that, uh Mr.

Chairman, I do thank you for your time and I yield my time.

Okay, quick couple questions that I'll call upon my colleagues.

So I'm a worker at the I'm working in emergency room, and I know we had this challenge over it um over at UH, where we had to put violence interrupters inside of the emergency room because of what we are experiencing over at UH at the at their trauma center.

Um so I'm a health care worker, I'm working in emergency room at the clinic, and I'm threatened or or or has there been actual physical contact besides actual threats?

It could be both.

Okay.

So at that moment, I'm gonna call, I'm gonna call for uh the clinic police to come, correct?

That's the procedure.

And there's going to be a report made or that person is going to have to be escorted out.

Can the can you actually constitute an arrest on your property?

That is correct, uh, Mr.

Chairman.

We we have full police authority powers.

That unlike the city of Cleveland.

When an incident occurs in our emergency department, we cannot escort that person out until they are treated because of Mtala.

Okay.

So they have to be treated.

We have to allow for that to happen.

When uh act of violence occurs, we consider that consider that a co-violet.

We trained as police officers, we train with our nursing staff to respond, if necessary, put restraints on that individual.

And if that individual is created uh committed an act that should result in an arrest after he or she is treated, then we will affect that arrest once they are discharged.

Okay, so uh whether I'm a patient or a visitor or family member, you actually can physically constitute an arrest on the property.

That's correct.

Okay.

And then you would call CPD, correct?

No, we will uh we have full authority on our part uh on our property.

Uh if we make an arrest, we will transport that individual to the county and book that individual.

Okay, that's what I'm I'm trying to understand the protocol here, because I want to make sure, and one of the things when we're why when we're through here, I would certainly encourage the clinic and all medical facilities to post something in their in their waiting rooms, in their emergency rooms, the law that you threaten somebody, you run the risk of being arrested.

You being you run the risk of being prosecuted.

Now that's where I want to follow up.

So what you're saying, uh Chief, is that the clinic, who will actually um undertake the the complaint, the finding of the complaint?

Is it the individual that's been threatened or is it the clinic?

The police officer that responds to the incident will take the information.

Okay.

And based upon probable cost, they will decide whether or not an arrest is appropriate.

And to the point that you made a second ago, and I think my colleague was about to make House Bill 452.

Right.

Do you do you want to make a comment on the signage?

Okay.

Yeah, so as part of House Bill 452, now every hospital is required to put signage at entrances, ED rooms and waiting rooms.

Cleveland Clinic, as of last week, we've deployed almost 700 signs across our entire Ohio platform and are deploying similar signage to all of our Florida and Nevada platforms as well.

Okay.

So I would just I want to make it clear.

So the clinic will stand behind that employee that is affected as it pertains to the prosecution, will assist that employee.

I don't I want to I want to make it clear, I want to I want you guys to make it clear that that employee doesn't stand alone in their efforts if they need to prosecute.

Yeah, so we have a victim advocate program that not only supports patients who are victims of crime, but as well as caregivers.

Okay.

As well as many of our managers will follow through and be with those victims as well.

I know I actually received an email yesterday about two of our nurse managers and our victim advocate supporting and attending a court hearing with one of our caregivers who was a victim.

Okay.

That's that's what we needed here, and that's been part of our discussions.

The council present myself over this.

As it pertains to the penalties for the viewing public, what are the penalties?

So that's the thing.

And it carries a um banatory minimum sentence of three days in jail.

So it could be also six months in jail.

Correct and a thousand dollars fine.

Correct.

Our ordinance, the the court still has the authority to impose greater penalties, but we wanted to make sure that there's a minimum penalty.

Okay.

Yeah.

You know, I I keep asking myself, um uh reoccurring theme is I'm living in a world I don't understand what why you would threaten health care workers.

Why you go they're trying to help you if you are a victim or you're they're trying to assist or help maybe a family member or friend of yours, and you're in the in the hospital threatening people.

I don't get this for the life of me.

Councilman Casey.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Mr.

Chairman, to our attorney, this now mirror state law, correct?

Through the chair to the councilman, not exactly.

Is it greater?

Is this more stricter than the state law?

All right, and then Mr.

Chairman to our attorney, is there any possibility, just like when we tried to increase our our gun laws in the city of Cleveland that somebody from the state will come down, sue us, do whatever, because it's more stricter than state law.

Through the chair of the council, um at in this particular ordinance, there's a very minimum risk of that, and the law department has approved this because it's a very small difference.

I get it, but it only takes the state still has menacing.

They just don't have the definition of health care worker and the hire for that, and we have a very strong legislative purpose.

Akron also has a law.

Okay.

A law departments approve the ordinance.

All right.

And then even though, Mr.

Chairman, to our attorneys that the clinic is here represented, this goes for anybody who would do something at UH, at Metro.

But this does not include if somebody was to menace a health care worker at the clinic in Avon, though, right?

So even though they're at the they're at a Cleveland Clinic property, right?

But they're an Avon.

Well, our jurisdiction is Cleveland.

No, I no, I I understand that.

But I I don't want it, I don't want or wherever a Cleveland clinic, you know, hospital is, this only pertains to the boundaries of the City of Cleveland.

Correct.

Okay.

And then Mr.

Chairman, to our representative from uh uh the clinic.

You indicated in your presentation that one of 22 victims are or the one in 22 health care workers are victims of of a crime.

And first of all, I think we should make clear what a health care worker is.

Some people just think it would be like a social worker or something like that, but this includes doctors, nurses, uh everybody basically who who is providing some sort of care for for anybody, correct?

That would include any clinical, non-clinical employee of Cleveland Clinic.

All right.

And then with one in 22 victims, Mr.

Chairman, to our representative, uh, who are the individuals or is there any information out there on who's actually committing these crimes?

So are we dealing with individuals who are coming into an ER uh dealing with a mental health crisis, or you know, they've taken something that have taken them out of their state of mind, knowing that you know in two hours they're going to be back in their normal state of mind.

So who are actually committing these crimes against health care workers if we know?

It varies across the entire spectrum.

It could be patients, it could be visitors, it could be family members, it could be those individuals who aren't even there for care, Cleveland Clinic.

Um it's people possibly under the influence, yes.

Okay, coming out of anesthesia, yes.

But also those who may be of sound mind and just upset of a weight and an ED.

So, Mr.

Chairman, to our representative, so there could be somebody who is coming out of an operation under anesthesia, and we don't know how they're going to react, and all of a sudden they they they're not acting their normal self, but for the fact that they're coming out of a surgery or under anesthesia, they have a moment.

There's a possibility that we could charge them, even though we know there's no history, there's no nothing, but because they had an incident, but for we'll just say the anesthesia, they could possibly face criminal charges.

Well, just on that point to the captain, excuse me, to the chief.

You indicated it's gonna be you're gonna you're gonna that officer responding officer is gonna make a judgment call at that point, correct?

Absolutely, Mr.

Chairman, and to the councilman.

Uh we still uh retain discretion in how we proceed in these incidents.

So yes, they we we will take something like that into consideration on whether or not we proceed with uh uh court uh proceedings.

Okay.

And then um, Mr.

Chairman, to our attorney, under section two, it looks like where it says the mandatory minimum may be reduced for time served in the jail prior to sentencing, but then it also says a day of time served credit may not be used to reduce multiple mandatory minimum sentences.

Does that mean somebody cannot get credit for time served on this?

Which means if they get arrested on a Friday and they don't have a hearing until Monday, we'll just say on Monday, they plead out and they're found guilty, does this mean they do not get credit for time served?

Through the chair to the councilman, it means they can get credit for time served for one uh one sentence for one charge, rather, but they can't get service credit from that first charge toward the second charge.

Does that make sense?

If they're charged with two different um charges, then multiple mandatory minimum sentences, then they can't get so if I get arrested, Mr.

Chairman, to our attorney, if I get pick up the charge on a Friday, I plead out on Monday, I can possibly, we know it's up to the judge.

It's a good thing.

But I could get credit for Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, and be done with it.

If the judge is prior to cleansing, correct.

Right.

If it's prior to sentencing, but then it says a daytime served credit may not be used to reduce multiple mandatory minimum senses.

So if you have multiple charges, then we're going to have a lot of people.

So if you pick up an assault and a menacing, correct.

But this does give me credit for time.

We're not taking away credit for time served.

Correct.

All right.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Thank you.

You're welcome.

Councilwoman uh Stephanie House Jones.

Thank you.

Um through the chair to the team here.

Uh good morning.

Um there are a couple of questions that I have.

Uh first, when you look at um the requirements of did you all go into what your workforce workplace violence uh prevent prevention security plan was?

What is it?

And has it been in implemented?

Who I again identify yourself for the view in public as well.

So Dallas Moyer with Cleveland Clinic.

So by joint commission standards as well as House Bill 452, every hospital is required to have a workplace violence prevention program that includes policies and procedures, offering of education and de-escalation training, as well as risk assessments and security assessments that are completed at every hospital on every unit.

So we have submitted and complied with House Bill 452 with doing those.

And I can tell you that we submitted over 300 attestations for all of our Ohio locations.

Okay, through the follow-up through the through the chair to the team here.

Where exactly is that publicly available to the public, or is that something internally?

The policy and procedure are housed internally on our uh policy system.

Um outside of the signage required by House Bill 452.

Um there is a uh patient pledge that's owned by our ombudsman office and our office of patient experience that is listed on our website, stating that patients are to provide or to receive care respectfully and that um acts of violence, verbal and physical will not be tolerated.

Okay.

And just to follow up, um uh through the chair to the team here.

Can you also go into what is the actual reporting system regarding this workplace violence prevention or what what is included in the uh reporting system?

Moyer.

Thank you.

Yes.

Um with the system that we have, it allows a caregiver to put information pertaining to the situation as it happened, including uh observations that they have as to the state of the patient, when and where the event uh occurred, if there were any uh situations that they noticed prior to or leading up to the event, as well as an opportunity for an event description.

And then that is followed up by multiple levels of review within the Cleveland Clinic leadership.

Okay.

Uh just another uh a couple more questions uh through the chair to the team here.

Um can you go into the details of what is the training for the security personnel?

Well, Chief, would you care to comment?

And as it relates to uh workplace violence prevention, things of that nature, what is the training consist of?

Through the chair to the councilwoman, uh first of all, our police officers are mandated to have de-escalation training as required by the State of Ohio to be opata certified police officers.

But beyond that, our police officers have additional de-escalation training.

Um is NAPI, give me the well training, which is additional training uh that uh health care workers go through in order to deal with or in order to serve that public that is in our hospital um that uh that that we would have to de-escalate and bring down to a level that we can prevent violence from happening.

We also do drills with our nursing team and our health care teams where police officers and the nursing staff will come together and simulate events that might occur uh within a uh within the a room within the hospital, and they would do a drill in order to uh place restraints on an individual to de-escalate de-escalate an individual and things of that nature in order to make sure that uh the first time we come together as a team that that's not the first time that we're uh uh using some of the techniques that we need in order to uh secure an an individual.

And so just a follow-up through the chair to the team here, as you talk about um the training that is giving the reporting that um is utilized.

Can you talk about the difference um when you look at the record of health care workers who have um been assaulted in some form or fashion?

Can you talk about um for those who were the you know alleged perpetrators, things of that nature?

How many people are first-time uh offenders versus those who are multiple multiple offenders?

Chief or Mr.

Moore.

Through the chair to the councilwoman.

We don't have that statistic with us, but we'll be happy to get it back to the committee at a later date.

Okay.

Uh, through the chair to the team that is here, um, can you talk about what is the impact on trauma and people's behavior and responses?

Through the chair to the councilman.

Um would that be for the patient or the victim of the workplace violence event?

Uh we let's do it, let's do both.

Um for the health care worker, it can cause uh potential days away from work or days uh restricted at work, their psychological impacts.

Um some caregivers seek uh treatment for that.

As well as physical um it impacts potentially patient care because the person's mind may be somewhere else, especially in the days or weeks following an event with the patient.

Again, a workplace violence event could potentially impact their care.

Um but it's hard to say on the patient aspect side what those impacts are, usually because they're the perpetrator and not the victim.

So through the chair to the team, so you're telling me that within a health care system, we don't understand the trauma of the alleged perpetrator during the time that the incident has happened.

We don't understand the impact of trauma and what actually uh physiological happens when people are in a state of trauma and the responses that happen from trauma.

As a as an overall look, please.

Excuse me, through the chair to the councilwoman.

As an overall, no, but as we investigate those individual situations, it varies because with some people, one person's impact and psychological standing may be different than the next person or the next person.

So at an individual level, yes, that can be understood through the post-event review.

Okay, I'm gonna come back to that.

But I have another question.

Uh, through the chair to the team here, uh, the chief, you said you indicated that it is a judgment call when you are making the decisions of who you will determine to potentially prosecute or not.

What does that mean?

What is the standard of a judgment call when we talk about enforcement of this policy?

Through the chair to the councilwoman, uh police in misdemeanor situations, police have discretion on how to proceed with those incidents, not only on uh the menacing uh law that we're discussing today, but on any misdemeanor, uh a police officer will take into consideration um what circumstances have had occurred prior to the act being uh uh the the violation being committed.

Uh based upon that and probable cause, a police officer may determine on whether or not a person should be arrested, if a person should be cited, if a person should should be uh warned and sent, but that is the discretion that every police officer, not just Cleveland Clinic police officers, but every police officer in the state of Ohio has is to make discretion uh make a discretionary uh decision based upon the circumstances.

So in the situation that was discussed earlier, when a person is under the uh coming out of anesthesia, and uh, if a police officer takes that into consideration and says that the intent of the individual was not to commit a violation, then a police officer at that part at that point will certainly still document it by way of a report, but maybe not necessarily cite the individual or arrest that individual in accordance with what the law holds.

Okay.

Um, through the chair to the team here, um can you go into the differences of the biases and discrepancy just in providing health care um to patients and also do you understand that uh on the discrepancy and biases many times in sentencing arrest um uh of depending on the various demographics here in the city of Cleveland?

Who are who would care to comment on it?

Through the chair to the councilwoman, I am not prepared or qualified to speak on the biases of uh discrepancies in health care.

Okay.

All right, and so again, I am gonna just raise up to the committee.

Um just in this, I'm very intentional when asking these questions.

Um, specifically, um, if we are considering a policy that is going to apply, be applied here in the City of Cleveland.

I think we would be it is our responsibility to ensure that it is clear of bias and discriminatory implementation, which we know it is rampant within our justice system.

Um, if we are talking about understanding what is the actual physiological happenings when people are enduring trauma, what actually happens to people when they are experiencing trauma from the alleged perpetrators, not understanding that information and and and passing this policy, I think will be very detrimental.

I will say just for myself, giving my experience being a uh caregiver for my mother, being at Cleveland Clinic, I can tell you firsthand how police will be called on caregivers because people are not listening to those who are caregivers.

Um, and it does a lot of times I think that is impacted by what you look like, who you are.

Um that's just based on my own experience.

Um I cannot in good conscience support this legislation without us having very clear standards, not based on people's judgment, because uh quite frankly, people's judgment have the bias and discrimination.

When we talk about who will actually end up being sentenced and charged, statistically speaking, it will be more black and brown people that will absolutely get charged to this standard compared to others.

And if you cannot provide me any, again, I don't think there's anybody that can provide any data to show that that there's anything different.

And this is no disregard or disrespect to our hard working health care workers.

I just want to be insured, and I think Clevelanders deserve to be assured that there would not be that that this system that we are in are putting forth things that are doing all that we can to ensure that we are removing the bias and discriminatory discriminatory practices that we know are still happening here in Cleveland, Ohio in our justice system.

I am very that's how I feel, and again, if there is no information to say that there are processes that can assure that, um I I am I absolutely cannot support this policy, and I think we are doing ourselves a grave disservice by doing that without assurances that we are going to track the data to actually track biases, be it able to ensure what does that mean your own judgment?

You know what I'm saying?

What kind of standard and tools that are going to be used to implement in the system to ensure people who are going through trauma are treated as such.

You know what I'm saying?

Again, we always expect the people who are going through severe issues, you're in an environment to be helped, and then many times they are victimized.

And again, your response at times is to lash out.

And if you are going to a place that's supposed to help you, and then end up being criminalized, and a lot of times, and you can't even tell me we're having this conversation, and not to bring forth the data to talk about individuals who it was this their first time, or if there are multiple offenders.

Like I just we I really don't feel like at times we are thinking through what are we trying to accomplish?

You know what I'm saying?

And how are we going to partner with people and support them in some of their gravest hours?

And if I hadn't had that personal experience in Cleveland Clinic where the police were called on me just to show up for my mother, because many times health care workers are not listening to people.

They dismiss you.

It is not right, and then to be criminalized for that.

We we we need to come up with a better system.

Thank you.

Councilman Slife.

Thank you, Councilman.

And I certainly understand, I understand the issue.

There are there are individuals, especially people on, you know, that's that social media kind of drives the zeitgeist.

There are people who are uh come in and tend to be adversarial, and and I uh understand why we need to correct about that.

I will say it's not really a question as much to respond to, but I do share concerns about overapplication if someone were coming out of anesthesia.

Uh I can say there was a there was a water main break on Lorraine Avenue a couple months ago, and um all the traffic from Lorraine Avenue was routed onto side streets.

And it got to the point where an ambulance was stuck on the side streets and could not get to the hospital, and a resident came out and it was Cleveland Clinic, not police but staff who were directing traffic off of Lorraine and through very narrow side streets.

And when the resident came out and said, You have to stop letting cars in, you have to let this clear there's an ambulance that's stuck, it can't get through.

Clinic staff called the told her she was interfering, called the clinic police on her.

I don't know who said the word arrest, whether it was Cleveland clinic police or Cleveland Clinic staff, the Cleveland Division of Police came, defused the situation, took over the traffic monitoring.

But in example like that, I I I don't want to create a scenario where in this someone intending to be helpful is finds themselves running a foul of an issue.

So I a lot of my questions come down to application.

Uh and and quite frankly, I'm not sure that the discussion that we'd have at the table here would completely satisfy my concerns of it being overapplied because we can have a very reasonable conversation, but then we're relying on some later state.

Um so I'm just gonna put it out there that I I understand the concern that Councilman House Jones has brought up.

The one question I do have is within the definition of health care worker, so through the chair to our staff, it reads health care worker means one who delivers services and or one who delivers care and services to the sick and ailing, either directly as health care professionals, such as doctors or nurses.

So that makes it clear that it's not exclusively doctors or nurses, but then or indirectly as aides helpers, laboratory technicians, or medical waste handlers.

My assumption is that the indirectly, and then the examples are a non-exhaustive list of examples.

My question is, is there a scenario where someone providing indirect care but is not an aid helper, lab tech or medical waste handler could be excluded because it does it's not clear within the legislation that this is a non-exhaustive list.

Yeah, through the chair to the councilperson.

Um you bring up a good point.

Uh it does say or indirectly as aides, helpers, laboratory technicians, or medical waste handlers.

There is no and/or there is no including but not limited to language, so I think your interpret interpretation is right that it is limited to those people.

So are you proposal um an amendment?

I would so I would propose an amendment to add after indirectly as comma, but not limited to, comma.

Okay.

Where is our did the assistant law director?

Did you hear that?

Yes.

Okay.

Uh there's gonna be you are you prepared to make that amendment now?

Yes, I I I propose it as stated.

Go re restate it.

Uh I propose to amend uh section A as follows.

After indirectly as insert, comma, but not limited to comma.

Okay.

There's been a motion made and seconded.

Any discussion on the motion?

Yes, he just changed it when it's the first time you stated it.

The first time he stated it, the comma started right after indirectly, and the second time it started after that.

Thank you, Mary.

I did add it, I did add a third comma in there data night.

So we can after, so indirectly as, comma.

No, I do believe there needs to be two commas.

Indirectly as, comma, but not limited to comma.

And then AIDS helpers lab text.

Okay.

Assistant law director, you have that?

Yep.

Okay.

But a motion made.

Uh it has been second.

Uh, an amendment.

All those in favor, aye.

Aye.

Aye.

Opposed.

The amendment is passed.

Okay.

Uh councilman Slife, you have any more questions?

No.

Okay.

Councilwoman Gray.

Yes, thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

I just have a question.

I briefly read this over yes, last night when I got it.

Um my understanding is what I listen to.

I'm my colleague, Councilwoman House.

I definitely understand what uh she uh feels and spoke on because myself chair to the team.

I worked at Cleveland Clinic Hospital for 14 and a half years.

I worked at University Hospital for nine and a half.

So I understand uh her um her her sentiments of of how um of how um this may appear uh of the of the non-consideration of incidents they that has and has happened in hospitals of my 21 years of experience of working at two different hospitals um in administration and asked as a laborer to see some things that went on by me working in those environments per se.

But however, my question is uh I can uh I want to just go off what my colleague just uh piggyback off.

My colleague said that what statistics do you have to create this type of legisation for us to consider to pass of what incidents has happened with uh with health care workers and respondents to say that you want us to pass this ordinance?

Uh prior to the table.

Prior to your arriving, they did a PowerPoint presentation.

Okay, I wasn't here for it.

Just for I'm asking the question.

Sorry that I'm late.

No, it's I if you pull it up under uh presentation, you'll find it.

All right.

Because it gives up it gives some statistics and figures.

Okay.

Um over the time frame.

Okay, I wasn't here for that, sorry.

You'll find it.

Would you uh why she's looking for that?

Would you care to comment based on your presentation?

Through the chair to the councilwoman, are we talking about national statistics or Cleveland Clinic statistics?

Both.

Okay.

So the Bureau of Labor Statistics uh reports are two years worth of data for 21 and 22, and which new reports will be coming out next week.

For Cleveland Clinic data, the increases that we uh listed were from 2023, so January 1st through October 31st, 2025, with that 34 percent increase in workplace violence event reporting.

Okay.

My my presentation won't come up.

Okay, see it.

Let's you look at my look at it.

Okay.

Can I get a point point of clarification on this 34%?

What a point.

Do you have a point?

Yeah, let me ask just one point of clarification through the chair to the team here.

You said 34%.

Is that including of both physical and physical and verbal assault or is just physical?

And then do you have the data to understanding for the alleged um uh perpetrators?

Um, how many of them are first-time offenders versus not?

Thank you.

Can you respond?

You have that data to the chair to the councilwoman.

The 34% increase is for all types of workplace violence events, both verbal, physical.

Um the data for first-time offenders is something that we would have to dig deeper in because of the reporting system we use for the victim to report, doesn't take into account or have space for them to put that in because they may or may not know if that person is a first-time offender, but we are able to pull that data through other systems.

Okay, thank you.

Ms.

Gray.

Okay, yes.

Okay, thank you for this.

Okay.

So is this chair to the team?

Is this just a focus on Cleveland Clinic only, or the other uh hospitals are also uh integrated into this uh study and this legislation?

It's it's all health care facilities in health care visible in the city.

All right.

Okay, give me a second.

Sorry.

Okay.

All right.

So I just have a one question, and I just want to be respectful to my colleague um councilwoman House.

You know, she had um chair to the team, you know, she is basically her is and sife and uh a malar had put out the t the Tanisha law per se.

How how uh that that is this similar like a reverse to because the Tanisha law is put out for for our uh citizens who have been um you know um uh uh dealing with dealing with incidents with their um dying from um at dying from coming to homes and uh and uh responders not able the police department uh the police office not able to take care of certain situations and we have our citizens who have passed away, you know, dealing with um you you know dealing with incidents like that.

So it's almost like a a uh uh a reverse situation that we're looking at uh from one law to the uh next would someone care to comment on that uh the niche we have not uh Tanisha's legislation just came back to us, so we'll be scheduling that shortly.

Okay, this is directly pertaining to health care workers and threats and assessments.

I understand that's directed against them and the concerns that has been expressed to the council president, myself, and others uh that it that is it is on the increase in our medical institutions, and some of you might recall we've had to assign violence interrupters to UH in their emergency room because of confrontations there and growing confrontations.

So that's what this legislation is about to try to attempt to address that.

Okay, we all have different questions, Chair.

Okay, okay, so so I can clarify some things for myself.

Thank you.

Appreciate that.

Thank you.

So I was just bringing up that point because we have one situation on one end, then we're now we have another situation on the other end.

And I know we're trying to make uh the make you know you know to ensure that we have uh a safe environment uh um in both areas pertaining to our citizens and also pertaining to our health care workers.

So I'm just trying to clarify of both issues have been raised on both ends to uh to uh you know to secure that um that uh we have to look at that as a whole uh for the uh citizens also in our communities, not just one particular area, because I have like I said I spent 21 years in the health care and I seen a lot myself in those 21 years.

So I do understand, but I also am a uh citizen in my community not as well as a council to see things that has affected uh the community too as well.

So we all have voices on both ends of the um on the ends of the stick to understand the clarity and the definition of what uh what we need to pass on both ends.

Okay, so I just wanted to put that out there.

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you.

Can I screen back?

Thank you.

Thank you.

Okay, Councilman Slife, you had something else you wanted to add.

Yes, I I asked two questions and and uh made an well, I made an assumption.

I asked a question and then we made an amendment off the question.

Uh so just to clarify through the uh chair to staff, the language of direct health care professionals, such as doctors or nurses, my assumption is that the such as language means that doctors and nurses is exhaust, is it is a non-exhaustive list.

So my wife, for example, who is a speech language pathologist, would be covered.

She does not work in Cleveland.

Um because of the such as language.

Is that a correct interpretation of how this would look, or is there also language in the direct health care portion of the definition that needs to emphasize that is not exclusively doctors or nurses, but would include someone like a physical therapist or a speech language pathology?

So Leary?

Through the chair to the councilman, uh that's a good question.

And I agree with you that because it says such as it would include other health care providers.

That's basically one who delivers care and or services to the sick or ailing.

So I think a physical therapist would be yeah, it says such as doctors or nurses.

Okay, under an abundance of caution, uh, Chairman, could I add a or propose a second amendment?

Similar that uh in the section After such as include, comma, but not limited to comma.

Okay.

Restate that for the assistant law director again.

Yes, for the law director and section A.

Uh, it would read uh as health care professionals, comma, or as health care professionals such as comma, but not limited to comma doctors or nurses, etc.

Okay.

Got it.

Okay, there's been a motion made.

Is there a second?

Second.

Second.

Any question any discussion on the motion on the amendment proposed.

Okay.

All those in favor, aye.

Aye.

Opposed.

Okay.

Ludget the amendment passes.

Okay.

So I have uh any other members of the committee would like to comment at all.

Um you have uh to our staff any final comment before I call a roll.

Mr.

Chairman, if I may, Mr.

Chairman, one point of clarification.

I may have misunderstood to some point or some degree, uh, Councilman House's question regarding bias.

Uh I thought she was asking about bias as uh as it pertains to how medical care is uh given in the uh okay, okay.

I well I again I can't speak to that, but I do want to speak real quickly, uh Mr.

Chairman about uh as far as police officers responding.

Uh our officers are uh go through bias-free training to make sure that they uh respond appropriately to to anyone that calls for services within the uh Cleveland clinic system.

Um not only that uh because of our memorandum of understanding with the city of Cleveland, all of our police officers have uh body cameras.

So each one of these incidents are recorded.

Each incident is reviewed if there's a complaint, the Cleveland Clinic has a civilian review board within itself that will over that will hear complaints about uh police conduct or complaints of biases.

So these situations and accusations of biases are taken very seriously within our department and they're uh acted upon appropriately.

And I just wanted to uh to share that with the and I'm glad you said that because I threw to the um the memorandum of understanding is that you must adhere, not just um Cleveland Clinic police, but the other agencies we have um memorandums in um in effect, they do have to adhere to bias-free policing.

Okay, so I'm glad you clarified that.

Councilman Starr.

Can I just follow up on these two points?

We have councilman stars because you yield.

Yes.

Okay, okay.

Go ahead.

Um, just through the chair to the chief, as you've talked about um uh two points the bias um bias-free training and things of that nature.

Have you all had an assessment of the training and implementation of your bias-free um implementation?

Okay, whoever can reach as you have indicated through the chair to the councilwoman.

We uh again, because of our memorandum of understanding, our training and has to align with the city of Cleveland training, which is uh approved by the Department of Justice for my understanding.

Yes, so uh our training will uh be in line with what they teach their officers and how they train their officers, and I'm very confident in the amount of training and the type of training that the officers receive as a result of that.

Well, I know that so that wasn't the question through the chair to the chief.

My question was what was the assessment of it?

So it's one thing to have training and saying these are the policies, it's another thing to actually have an have it assessed to say that the things that we were training we are actually are fully implementing.

Absolutely, and thank you for the question through the chair to the councilwoman, the Cleveland Clinic Police Department is Calia accredited.

Kalia is the commission on the accreditation of law enforcement agencies.

Um they they promote themselves on the website as being the gold standard and policies, and what Kalia officials will do is every four years they will come in, they will review all of our policies as it pertains to uh how our officers respond to things, and then we have to show proofs that we are abiding by the policies that are in place in place.

We uh just received our re-accreditation about two months ago.

I'll be happy to share that with the council if the council choose.

Thank you.

All right, and the last part um through the chair, that still didn't answer my question about the assessment of bias, but I'm gonna leave that alone.

Uh the last question um through the chair to the chief.

You talked about um the civilian review board.

Um, I guess the question that I do ask is how many people and how many cases that have uh been brought forth for your civilian review board um have been and pertaining to uh workplace violence um uh uh against uh health care professionals.

So people that are still on a point, so I I want you to respond and then we'll yeah, you can move on.

That was my last question.

Through the chair to the council to the first question uh uh councilwoman.

Uh the assessment is done by Kalia, so that assessment has been completed.

And to the question that uh that you just asked, the civilian review board will over will hear situations in which police misconduct has taken place, not necessarily workplace violence, but if there is an accusation that a police has not performed in accordance with our policies, that is the purpose of the police review board.

Thank you.

So whatever I would say um between now and the finance committee, whatever additional information you can put together for us, we'd certainly would be appreciative.

Councilman Star uh Councilman Starr.

Thank you, Chair Chair.

I'll be real brief on to the chair.

Um when we're talking about this ordinance number 138-0180, 1380 2025.

Yes, just want to make sure some of the points that councilwoman seven house jones brought up is making sure um those individuals who have mental health challenges, and if they're coming from a uh surgery or a procedure and they wake up um and they're not as normal as anyone would be, are they going to be the ones getting arrested just because they're they don't know where they at or they've been through a procedure like it?

How are we actually evaluating on assessing those cases to then just locking them up and making them having to pay a fine or sitting in jail?

Do we have anything or any protocols in place to ensure that that does not happen?

Because therefore then there's when biases does occur within the health care field.

So, how are we making sure uh we got things in place to help assist with those different cases to the chair?

Chief through the chair to the councilman.

Uh again, uh as I stated earlier, uh officers will use discretion.

Uh officers understand that the courts will not take certain cases, and then uh we have situations that occur uh in the instance or the example that you just used, understanding that the court probably will not take a case like that, the officer will not affect an arrest.

I would like to also weigh in here through the chair to the councilman.

There's something in the language here, I think that helps with that, at least for people under anesthesia.

The standard is that if the victim of the offense is a health care worker, whom the offender knows or has reason to know is a health care worker performing their duties.

So there has to be an awareness.

You know, going to your question about you know people under anesthesia or with maybe mental health issues.

Okay, I think that could be helpful as a standard.

I think that could be helpful as a standard.

Councilman.

And through that protocol, on what type of training are we providing with the officers once this is passed, or if this is passed, for them to understand this is the changes that is happening, and this is a difference between discretionary or just your judgment or anything, because no one's perfect.

No one's perfect in this world, everyone has flaws.

But there are cases where someone may be biased or unbiased towards and they deal with the situation.

Now a person is locked up or they got to pay this thousand dollar fine and all these different things because that just happened.

Um how do I just want to make sure we are not passing something where we're gonna look at and it's just different people from War 5 that going through a different thing, going through a surgery, going through a procedure, and next you know they wake up and they're not themselves and they're flipping out because they don't have a loved one, they're on their own, they don't know exactly what just happened.

They may have been under anesthesia for a couple days, um, and they flip out.

And do they cause any major harm or concerns?

Maybe you have a doctor or nurse or someone who's like, oh no, we ain't having this and they're having a bad day.

Now this person is being locked up, and there's still like a there's a there's a fine line or a thin line for us to be able to cross to determine who's at risk or what is not at risk, and now we're talking about we're gonna give the officers um their discretionary credit to be able to do this.

Like, is this something that makes sense for us to actually change?

Even though I see this was written in 1974, I think um Dean Clinton's sponsored this.

Thank you.

But I just want to make sure I know exactly what you know what are we actually doing, what is the change for, and how does it relate to where we are at today?

Through the chair.

Well, through the chair of the councilman, I do want to point out that this law is on the books now.

Anyone can be the they have the discretion to charge anyone now with menacing, yes.

Uh anyone, including a health care worker.

The only thing this ordinance really does is increase the penalty.

Okay.

And as a deterrent, right?

To try to have a deterrent, um, the judges still have discretion.

In light why the the um why this uh discussion took place is because the numbers that have been presented is the increase not only at the clinic but across the entire city as it pertains to health care workers being put uh in harm's way and under great stress.

So that's why this action was taken.

Councilman, any other questions?

Yep, so you said we're bringing this before because based on the data that is prevented, I mean provided by the clinic, um, that a lot of health care providers are being physically attacked and harmed through the chair, is that what we're saying?

Yes, okay.

I'll relay that back to the chief and to Mr.

Umore.

Go ahead.

Through the chair to the councilman, the data is for all events, so it's not just physical events, it is physical and verbal events in the council, but we are seeing increases in both just physical events as well as verbal.

So it's across the board that the number of events are increasing.

So, how do we handle through the chair uh incident where um patient felt as if they were treatments fair?

Um, is anybody getting arrest from their standpoint, or do they have to try to go through a whole paperwork process, or do they have to prove themselves being a victim as opposed to if a health care worker just say, hey, we buzz and call Cleveland Clinic police to come up because they feel this patient is out out of ordinary or they're they're acting out or they're physically abusing or they um anything like that, how do we how do we make the short of balance is fair?

Because anyone could say cry wolf and say this happened and this happened, but if they're the if they're the actual doctor or employee at the hospital, they supersede versus the actual patient who may be dealing with something from their perspective, or do we just say, hey, because you're a patient and we feel like you're on our campus, you did X, Y, and Z now, therefore we calling the police to arrest you to the chair.

Okay, to through the through the chair through the chair to the councilman.

Uh, I think this goes back to what I spoke about earlier, and that is every uh incident that a police officer, a Cleveland Clinic police officer is involved in, uh, is evaluated, is reviewed and evaluated, and based upon what has occurred during that incident, uh, we will take appropriate action.

Uh we also, again, we will act on any complaints that come against police officers.

So if a patient feels that he was treated inappropriately by a Cleveland Clinic police officer and files a complaint, that complaint will be funneled into our uh civilian review board process and reviewed.

And with that, they also have the option, because we reside within the city of Cleveland to file their complaint with the city of Cl Cleveland as well.

So there are multiple options that a patient can file if they feel that they have been mistreated by a Cleveland Clinic Police Officer.

And then also to that to that point to the chair, is there um can I put a request out for us to possibly see from this number of entity inquiries of incidents?

Do we have any ethnic athletes in the background breakdown of this data?

Do we can we see anything that show how many people that were black, brown, white, young, age, or I mean, to say this is how to increase how this has increased take on because you're seeing a number saying there's been 6,000 plus potential victims in the city of Cleveland?

Can we have a detailed breakdown of who is what?

Do you keep um to the um to the chief and to Mr.

Moore?

Do you have any demographic breakdowns of the individuals?

To the chair of the councilman, we would have to do some work to pull that because it's separate systems, but that is information we could take a look at and pull for you.

Okay.

And then I would make a point on to the chair before we pass this out of committee or anywhere.

Can we have that data for we to be able to look at that?

Because I do not want to see residents um being targeted in certain areas due to the fact of their challenges that they have while they're going through the health care systems to be victimized of something that we pass in an increased fine and penalties of going to jail, um, which could be targeting through through my standpoint through the chair.

Okay.

So what the the well, the pleasure of the committee will be to the do we hold this or move this on the finance with the hope, well, with the not the hope to request that the information that we requested will be from be provided by the at the finance table.

So it's a pleasure of the committee at this point.

Um, I would I'd recommend that we pass this out of committee.

But then know that if it's uh the information is not provided at finance, then it should be held at finance.

Okay.

Okay.

That's reasonable.

Okay.

Then with that, I don't agree with that.

So we'll probably should take a roll call.

So then we'll take a roll call.

So are there any other questions on ordinance number 1380-2025?

Any additional questions before we call the role?

Oh, I'm sorry.

Okay.

My last question.

Um, do you all have the information as it relates to the current standard?

Do you have the data?

Information of how many um individuals and uh the breakdown of how many people have been uh currently charged with medicine as it relates to this policy and the breakdown in the demographics and those who may be first time.

So we'll and again we'll request that and you will have that information for us.

And I would go back to the first well, no, I I was asking the question.

We were talking about it, so I was asking to the team here.

And as before we pass legislation, we should probably understand the actual standard right now of what is happening to menacing currently right now for health care workers.

I think that is relevant information.

Okay, thank you.

So I would make the request.

No, I was asking the team that's here today.

Okay.

And there are any more requests.

Okay.

No, no, the chair, I'm asking them.

Do you have the information?

Ms.

Mr.

Chairman to the councilwoman, we don't have that information with us today.

We can provide that information, keeping in mind that we would only be providing information from the Cleveland Clinic health care system and that there are other health care systems that might impact your opinion.

Uh their statistics might impact your opinion on this matter.

Thank you, Chief.

Thank you.

So I would ask of staff if you can make a request of UH and Metro.

Sure.

Uh, especially where the um where the trauma units are at, that would be very important.

That would be where we would get a good indication of what's going on.

And probably the VA as well.

Okay.

Okay.

Any other requests?

Yes, well, I that's what I asked earlier when I asked about the data, but you said that they had the presentation and I missed it.

And I know that even though they had the presentation chair, that's what I was inquiring about.

What data do they have to show about the incidents at the um, you know, uh at these facilities at all the hospitals.

And I just want to share just a short story.

Uh going back to Consulwoman House, even VA.

I worked at VA too, which I did not state that earlier.

VA was one of the first hospitals that I worked at.

And I was a very young, I was very young at that time.

And I was working with the patients.

And by me not knowing the the different backgrounds or the um uh the uh the health care incidents of the patients that was there, I was caring for patients at VA and did not know the understanding of VA patients.

So this one patient that I was taking care of at that time, he can't he approached me and he said he approached me out the blue and said, I'm going to choke you by your neck and tell you dead, dead, dead, and that scared the heck out of me.

That's I mean I was terrified.

So when I stepped out the room and I went and told the head nurse, she gently told me about his medical condition.

So these are great examples that my colleagues are bringing up.

How do we how do we understand the medical addition?

A condition of a patient if you're not aware of the care of the patient.

And I wasn't a uh I wasn't a caregiver, I wasn't a uh uh I wasn't a nurse.

I was uh uh I was a student uh from the school just uh obtaining a job uh for the summer, and that was one of my job position is to assist the nurses to do certain job duties for the patients, and uh uh I did not go and report it per se because I was so young, but the head nurse herself, they was able to take care of that situation.

So that's what I'm saying, and the sense uh we need to understand the background of uh patients and you know, you know, and the type of care of these patients, you know, needs per se.

Thank you.

Okay.

Um we have um we have the legislation before us.

We you hear our request.

Um hope to get that by the finance committee, UH Metro Lewis Stokes Medical.

Okay.

With um I'm gonna call the roll.

So without objection, ordinance number 1380 as amended 25 2025, madam clerk, please call the roll.

Yes.

No.

Yes.

No.

Kelly, slide.

Yes.

No.

You've three A to 300.

Then the legislation um I'll discuss this with the council president.

It does not pass.

I I know I understand that it didn't pass.

Okay.

Thank you.

Um, I just wanted to say that because the last time we had a slit, it moved on to the next committee.

It can be relieved, it can be released.

It cannot be relieved if it did not fail, it would have to be brought back up, and then it will actually have to pass unless it's introduced directly to the committee.

Differ with you, but we'll move on.

So thank you very much for those of you who hear, you'll provide that information for us.

Thank you.

Our next topic is gonna be shot spotter.

Thank you.

Okay.

Okay.

No, no.

I was, but I decided not to.

Okay.

Administration.

We have folks here from CSU.

We have presenters from CSU, and I would like to bring them to the table.

Rachel Lavell and um I hope I pronounced that right, and Stephanie Kent from CSU would please come to the table to my colleagues to the viewing public.

When city council passed the legislation that was requested by the administration pertaining to implementation of the shot spotter program.

Part of that uh overall discussion was that there had to be a review of the program.

Um so that has taken place.

All of you should have received the I'm trying to think 185 page report uh from CSU.

Did we pay you by the page or what was that?

That's what I wanted to know.

Okay.

That is within the city of Cleveland for the viewing public.

Um have heard of ShotSpotter, um uh comment about ShotSpotter, it was initially three square miles, it was expanded to 13 square miles.

It was to address um areas with high levels of gun violence and where residents were not calling uh the division of police 911 or or reporting and um areas uh where again shots were being fired.

So before I call upon the CSU representatives, I would ask the safe director for your comment.

The original legislation look for it right now.

Let me see.

Yeah, I'm looking for a number.

Yeah.

909-2022.

And then there was an amendment made as well to that legislation.

So ahead.

Thank you.

You can identify yourself with a view and publish.

Sure.

Good morning, uh Council Members.

Wayne Drummond, Director of Public Safety.

And with me to my left are the professors from Cleveland State, Dr.

Stephanie Kent and Dr.

Rachel Lovell.

I pronounced your last name right?

Okay, thank you.

And to my right is Lavelle.

Yeah.

See, Lovell.

I thought.

Thank you.

And to my right is Assistant Director Jason Shachner.

And to his right is Captain Matthew Gallagher from the Division of Police, who is basically a point person for Shot Spider or Gunshot technology, detection technology.

I just have some opening remarks and then we'll go ahead available for questions.

All right, ordinance number 909-2022, which authorized the city to enter into an agreement with Shot Spider Inc.

or now they're called sound thinking.

Additionally, mandated an independent evaluation of the use of the technology.

The City Commissioned Cleveland State University's criminology research center to conduct a two-year evaluation of the division of police implementation of ShotSpotter.

The report is a thorough and balanced assessment of the technology's use in our city.

Yes.

The City has carefully reviewed the findings and acknowledges both the positives and the limitations of SHOSPORTE as summarized.

Start with number one, generally accurate, faster response, and evidence collection.

And I'll go into that a little bit more.

The CSU evaluation found that shot spotter.

And is more accurately located than 911 calls.

This is CSU report page 23.

Because of this improved physic uh precision, I'm sorry, shot spider can result in police response for gunfire not reported to police or a quicker response, police response and more accurately located police response than 911 calls.

That's again, that's from their report, same page, which is page 23.

In addition, CSU noted that the technology supports investigators by improving evidence collection, such as locating bullet casings and providing incident timelines that can help identify shooters and cooperate cases against CSU report page 94.

Number two, no Fourth Amendment concerns.

The CSU evaluations explicitly found in this quotation, no evidence that identified significant Fourth Amendment concerns regarding shot spotter as implemented by the Cleveland Division of Police.

That's again CSU report page 15 and 16.

Number three, not a standalone solution.

While Shot Spider helps police respond faster to gunfire and collect more forensic evidence, the study notes, and again, quotation by itself, shot spider does not directly reduce crime.

It is an after-the-fact technology.

Again, CSU report, this is page 13.

Number four, an important tool in a broader strategy.

The evaluation confirms that shot spotter is a useful tool for situational awareness, but it must be paired with other technologies and strategies to minimize maximize I need to put my glasses on.

Maximize impact.

As the report states, shot spider is difficult to incorporate with other types of policing technologies unless deliberately aligned with other tools.

Again, CSU report, page 14.

Number five, looking ahead, newer technologies.

Newer technologies have emerged since Cleveland first implemented the technology in 2020 that addressed many of the shortcomings identified in the report.

Integration of real-time surveillance cameras, license plate readers, and data analytics with gunshot detection technology will provide a more complete picture for investigators and allow for more proactive and effective police uh safety responses.

The city will engage a new vendor with that integrates these complementary technologies into a unified system enabling a seamless information sharing and enhanced situational awareness within the division of police.

The CSU evaluation provides the city with a useful picture of shot spotter's role in Cleveland.

It is not an all-encompassing solution to violent crime, but can be an important and effective when deployed thoughtfully and in combination with other technologies.

The city will continue to evaluate the integration.

I'm sorry, and integrate improved gunshot technology along with other innovations to improve public safety, protect civil liberties, and build trust within the community.

For that and with that, uh we are available for any questions that the committee may have.

Okay.

Would anyone else from your team care to comment?

And not just particular time is just we're here for questions, and obviously we have the professors here from the doctors from Cleveland state that can answer questions as well.

So let me preface frame it as this.

Obviously, the shot spotter um uh legislation initially came to us at the request of the administration by departmental request.

Um we have also the city, this council has taken aggressive action as it pertains to the technology.

We've implemented the body cams, dash cams.

Um we have passed legislation to overhaul and put back up in in the sky um our two police helicopters.

We passed the drone legislation, which the training is being being carried out correctly right now, right?

That's correct, correctly.

Um we have taken um what I like to think to be very aggressive action as it pertains to the technology in light of the fact that we are still down uh within the numbers within the division of police, and as of today, um we have um one thousand one hundred and fifty-one officers.

Um we have seventy-eight recruits and uh to date we have eighty-two officers that have left uh due to retirement or for other reasons.

So we're very much aware that we still remain very challenged in the city with regard to having men and women in blue patrolling our neighborhoods, and that's why we continue um to do everything we can in working with the administration with regard to recruitment.

But again, we're looking at uh um technology and how it can enhance our ability to provide better policing within the city of Cleveland.

So at this time I'm gonna call upon the two CSU researchers who put together this um this lengthy report, lengthy report on the shot spotter system, and I would also indicate that in the audience we have representative of the shot spotter here in attendance as well.

So at this time, um, whoever would like to start, I have again Rachel Lavell and Stephanie Kent, who would like to kick it off.

I'll go ahead.

Um Stephanie Kent, Cleveland State University.

Um first of all, good morning, Council Chair, um, committee members.

Uh thanks for the opportunity to put to talk about our results.

Okay.

Sorry, close here.

Um as you all know, you you and uh you requested the evaluation to provide some independent data-driven insights into how it's been implemented, whether it's useful to police operations, and how, in addition, it affects community trust and perception of policing in Cleveland.

Yes.

And so uh those those being the questions, um, our evaluation had two major goals.

Um, first to assess the usefulness and the effectiveness of shot spotter to Cleveland police, in terms of does it improve response times and other outcomes, evidence recovery, uh investigation aid, et cetera.

Um and then the second one being assessing community perception.

So how do residents how do residents view the use of shot spotter?

Does it influence trust, legitimacy, perceptions of fairness and policing?

Um and so in terms of methodologies, we took a mixed methods approach, combining quantitative and qualitative data and methods.

Um in terms of goal one, we looked at data from shot spotter alerts, quantitative data, and compared them with 9-1-1 data.

We conducted field observations of officers using ShotSpotter in real time.

Uh I distributed an online survey to officers, held interviews with police personnel and others who use ShotSpotter data.

And then in terms of goal two, we reviewed for which is community perception, we reviewed public comments about ShotSpotter, conducted in person and online community surveys and observed and interviewed residents in the communities.

So importantly, our evaluation looked not just at the outcomes that the technology produced, but also how it was implemented by officers and experienced by residents because any tool is only as good as it is used by the people who are using it.

So in terms of findings, um basically we found six main ones.

We found that generally shot spotter is accurate in terms of identifying gunfire.

Secondly, not surprisingly, uh ShotSpotter increases priority one calls for service, the highest priority.

So when ShotSpotter is deployed, it generates new emergency calls that wouldn't have come through otherwise.

Um if people aren't calling 911.

Um now, of course, this means more gunfire incidents are receiving a response, but it also creates more strain on police resources.

Um so we did find longer response times for priority one calls overall, and that officers reported that the increases in calls from ShotSpotter sometimes reduce their ability to address lower priority issues or quality of life issues, which community members also noticed in our discussions.

Um as mentioned already, uh ShotSpotter functions largely as a standalone tool, so it's not easily integrated with some of the other police technologies that are being used currently in Cleveland.

Um and part of this is due to data collection needing to be data needs to be entered in multiple places, which also limits its potential value for long-term strategic crime analysis.

Um again, as mentioned, ShotSpotter does not directly reduce crime, but it does help respond to uh confirmed gunfire.

Um there's no real evidence of a deterrent effect, partially because uh potential offenders likely don't know where or whether the technology is operating.

Um and while response times may be improved because the technology is able to pinpoint the location more accurately than a 9-11 caller might, um the response time does not is not fast enough to really change the outcome in most cases.

Uh in terms of public opinion about the use of shot spotter, um, we found it was mixed across uh the residents that we surveyed and interviewed and observed.

Um residents did express concerns about accuracy, uh cost, surveillance um potential, and many voiced preferences for alternative public safety investments.

So we we heard a lot about um wanting more investment in community programs or mental health resources as a um concern for for the residents.

Um that being said, we did not find any evidence in our observation and assessment of the use of ShotSpotter that Cleveland police is using it in any way to violate Fourth Amendment rights, um, or we do not find any legal concerns raised among our observations.

Uh finally, uh, as mentioned, we find ShotSpotter to be a supplemental but not an essential tool.

Um it does occasionally aid investigations, um, but is not rarely the sole source leading to any arrest or life-saving intervention.

In fact, um, in all but one of the cases where officers rendered first aid at a gunfire scene that were from the from that were started by a shot spotter call, um, a 9-1-1 call had also been made.

So that's that's an important finding as well.

Um, we just want we wanted to mention that we our evaluation did look uh was a unique compared to most uh prior valuations, in that we looked, we focused more on implementation, not just those outcomes.

How is it being used to date data day?

And um, and also compared to other studies, um, looking at the the voices of the residents, that's not something that um many evalu most evaluations have done in the past, and so we thought that was an interesting request from council and thought found that was very useful.

Um, and so even we did find that many of the community members didn't necessarily know about ShotSpotter prior to our study or to us speaking with them, but we did find that the residents of Cleveland are deeply concerned about the frequency of gunfire and violent crime, and they'd like to see Cleveland police receive additional resources to support these crime prevention efforts.

Um as with every evaluation, we have some limitations.

They're noted in the report, but um, just to quickly go over those, we we did rely on non-random samples and existing uh CDP data systems, so we were not able to devise a completely experimental approach, which we would which would have been ideal ideal.

Um second, data availability limited the depth of our quantitative analysis as much as we would have liked.

Um and of course, we did not have full access to any of the proprietary data or information from Sound Thinking in terms of how their um how their process happens and um in order to evaluate that.

Um but never know nevertheless we have um a lot of different methods that we used, and we feel like by that we triangulated the sources so that um we have confidence in the robustness of our findings.

Um again, we didn't have a single yes or no judgment on whether the benefits of shot spotter outweigh its costs, but uh our findings indicate that it does help CDP respond to more confirmed gunfire than would be possible otherwise.

Um we did find that even when it's paired with the 911 call, shot spotter does often alert police sooner, um which could potentially increase opportunities for finding victims evidence recovery.

But as we said, um in terms of uh life-saving action, these are um cases in which 911 was typically called anyways.

And um we would also just note that most alerts did not lead to any actionable outcome in terms of arrests, charges, um, etc.

So uh at that point we just leave it up to all of you to to make the decision on whether you all think this is something that's worth um the resources, and we hope that this uh information is useful to you and helpful to you in making your decision and want to thank you for your attention to the evaluation and the opportunity to conduct this work.

Thank you, thank you.

Would you care to comment?

Okay.

Okay.

So for the viewing public, what uh it was this was conducted by the tell us by what section is CSU.

So we are uh professors of criminology in the Department of So Criminology and Sociology at the Criminal Criminology Research Center.

So we have a research center.

Okay.

So what I what I also think is important from my standpoint of my colleagues, um, this is a uh an opportunity for us to think about um where we could perform additional oversights in other departments and divisions utilizing CSU.

So that's what the other side of the uh from my perspective that I thought was very important that we're partnering.

This is a partnership with CSU, and I hope we can continue this partnership um within other departments and divisions as it retains to getting independent oversight, independent um review, it would be very helpful to the council.

So, based on um to the director, based on the comments that have been made here.

Do you have any additional things you'd like to add?

Not this particular time that the report speaks for itself.

We trust uh the doctors there did an outstanding job.

It was a well-balanced uh report, and there we knew that it would be um uh positives and negatives uh from the report.

Um it's important that to note that this is one technology amongst many that we have here in the uh division of police in the city of Cleveland.

Um this is a tool, uh one tool um again uh amongst many tools that we use to hopefully drive down crime, stop uh violent crime in our city.

Okay.

Let me ask a few questions.

I'm open up to my colleagues.

Um in the course of your report and your interviewing.

What was um the feedback, or if there was feedback, why people are not calling 911?

Um we found a number of reasons why uh common commonalities in the survey and observations and interviews.

Um of these were people who did not f feel like they they were not sure where the gunfire may have been coming from, or they didn't feel like they had enough information that would be helpful to police.

Um people said that they would there was a number of people who said that they would rather not get police involved because they would were not were worried about any backlash from neighbors um for calling police.

Um there were definitely some trust issues with police mentioned um about why they don't call 911.

But um also people said most of the time when there's something really like serious, if they were to see somebody hurt or shot, they would call.

That was a yeah.

So just so again, because we initially um that came before us was three square miles.

Um then 13 square miles and to the again to the viewing public to the director.

Could you give some uh uh basic proximity of where that was at geographically chair?

Um initially the initial phase of uh the program started in the fourth district.

Um certain areas in the fourth district.

I don't have the areas in front of me.

I see that uh Jason is feverishly looking up those areas, so we can give you precise location.

But it is in the report, and that's what he is looking for right now.

Initially started three square miles in the fourth district based on data.

Data is uh homicides, phones all shootings and other factors based on the that information, that data, the three-mile area was selected.

Uh what's expanded as you know into uh 13 additional to uh 13 total uh square miles and the same thing, the data was uh selected, again, homicides, uh flaw salt shootings, and uh maybe one or two other data points uh in those particular areas were selected as well.

Okay.

Again, we're I want to give you the exact relative exact locations and the the area, the initial area was in the Buckeye Road area, if I'm not mistaken.

We're gonna give you the exact locations uh assistant director Sackner has the director, identify yourself if it would be in the public.

Assistant director, Jason Shachner.

Uh I could give you within the district, not just the less.

So what was activated on November 3rd, 2020 was three square miles in District 4 in April on April 10th, 2023, 2.5 square miles in District 5.

On April 24th, 2023, one square mile in the District 3, on May 31, 2020, 1.83 square miles in District 4, so additional um June 30th, 2023, .67 square miles in District 4, so some additional.

Uh May 15th, 2024, one square mile in District 1 was activated, and on May 15th, 2024, two square miles in District 2 were activated.

Okay.

So basically what we would refer to is the core city.

That would be accurate, yes.

Okay.

Okay.

Um to the researchers.

Um, how critical uh based on the shot spotter system that is in place now, how critical is the number of officers working in the street to respond.

Was there any correlation?

Identify yourself.

And pull the mic up close.

Okay.

Sorry, thank you.

We don't typically uh just pull it close.

Okay, yeah, perfect.

We don't typically come.

And so thank you for the empathy.

You're welcome.

Um it is uh it is quite vital that there are officers uh and have the staffing to be able to respond to these.

Um uh because uh ShotSpotter on average produced about 20 additional calls per day.

Um so and they're all priority one call, so life there life or death calls.

Right.

So it it is critical to have staffing um to be able to respond to those calls as well as the other calls that officers also have.

Uh shot spotter, because they are alerting them to gun fire, will produce, and other studies have shown that as well.

They produce you know more needs for service.

Okay.

Because that's something again that obviously uh because again the the collective, the council has taken great streps, great steps to, you know, uh we have um we funded a hundred hiring of 180 officers this year.

Uh we've passed uh the hiring bonus.

We increased the age for officers.

We've given officers the right to have tattoos, beards, wear ball caps.

Um did I miss something in my and I don't think I missed anything.

Tattoos, tattoos, yeah.

So we've done everything we can to try to uh encourage more men and women in the City of Cleveland to become members of the division of police, but we still uh are nowhere where we where we need to be.

And so one of the issues with ShotSpotter uh from going over the report, and you just alluded to it.

It's uh it's a priority one call, so then that takes prior over everything else as it retains to response.

And so it does then have a we have then a domino effect on other calls for service.

That's become very clear to me going through the report.

And and let me just say into the viewing public.

Within the council, there are some people who have been strong advocates of shot spotter.

There have been other council people who have raised concerns whether it was a cost-effective, is a cost-effective approach.

There are other members of council would like to see more safety and security cameras put up outside of ShotSpotter.

So the there's different opinions, different thoughts within the body, and that's why I'm um I am uh very appreciative uh the due diligence and the work that you did.

Because we want to make the right decisions here.

We want not only the right decisions, but we have to look at the financial aspect of this, because I think we all know uh we're not going to get any additional help out of Washington, D.C.

We seem not to be getting any help out of Columbus, Ohio.

So the dollars that we collect, the revenue we collect, we have to make sure, especially for the division of police and public safety in general, which is about 60 percent of the overall budget.

Um we have to make sure we're we're being we're being smart due to the implementation of programs and initiatives that we do.

So I also have an attendance uh representative of ShotSpotter, and I'm gonna ask them to come up to the table in a moment and make some comments as well, because the to the director and to um the assistant director, the shot spotter legislation terminates when the 26th we'll get to exact date.

Yeah.

As you look for that.

Um, and obviously the administration has submitted legislation with regard to going down a different path with uh with flock safety and that legislation we're we have staff looking at that now.

Um we haven't scheduled the date on that.

So it's the opinion, I want to get it clear at the table.

It's the opinion of the administration that you do not plan on renewing the shot spotter contract.

Is that correct?

Through the chair, council members we are evaluating uh all technologies and flock is one of the technologies that we're evaluated.

Obviously, you have the uh legislation that's uh you mentioned before.

Right.

But our intend is to evaluate um other technologies in Flock is one of those technologies to make sure we have the best possible technology that integrates with our current systems.

So you are trying to be politically correct at the table, so you are again you are not going to renew the shot spotter to the chair at this particular point, that's correct.

Okay.

Do the chair Yes.

Um just to answer your previous question, the ShotSpotter contract or Sound Thinking Contract is fired November 2nd, 2025.

And I just want to briefly touch on your point about the staffing levels that takes for to respond to the priority one calls.

Um what is we really did evaluate this um report and take the recommendations and insights to heart.

Um one, as you see throughout the report, is the placement of the uh sensors from sound thinking.

They're placed to maximize coverage area in in certain spaces, whereas our surveillance cameras and our license plate readers are placed according to the data and the most effective locations like high instance crime areas, uh high traffic intersections and things like that.

So you don't have the sensors uh corresponding necessarily to other crime um fighting tools, which is why you see in the report about the difficulty of integration with this.

But I would add when you go to priority one, is about that situational awareness and being able to differentiate between which priority ones are actual priority ones you need to go to since you don't have those other outside surveillance cameras.

You don't so every you have to assume that everything is uh shooting where there could be a victim.

And uh and I find, and I'm gonna call and I have Councilman Starr down on my list.

I'm gonna I find there is a great deal of confusion with our with our um citizens as well, because I've had people calling me and I'm getting emails.

Um the flock cameras that we have in effect right now are licensed plate readers as of this point, correct?

Through the chair of councilman, that's correct.

Yeah, and they are strategically positioned throughout the city.

That's correct.

Um the the camera system that we have in place, this is what we call the safety and security cameras, though the that is not tied to either shot spotter or flock at this point, correct?

Through the chair, um you are correct relative to the uh uh shot spotters the gunshot uh detection technology that is not quite tied to our real-time crime center unless our officers respond and then find something, then obviously if the cameras are there, we can have situational awareness.

As far as the flock cameras, yes, they are they are tied into our real-time crime center.

That's the license plate reader.

Yes, that is a license plate reader.

The surveillance cameras are something they're not flocked branded.

That's exactly separate.

So that's I think there's a great deal of confusion.

Well, I don't think I know there's a great deal of confusion out there with um with a lot of the um the folks that are contacting my office on this whole issue.

Okay.

To our two researchers, any additional comments.

I appreciate the work that you did.

I thought it was very helpful.

And again, as I have said at this table, um I'm gonna be recommending to the council president um that we start uh figuring out how we can partnership better with our local colleges and universities as it retains to giving us an independent uh review and oversight of some of the things that we're doing, other departments and divisions.

I think it's very helpful to have a third party look at some things and come back to us.

So often we're just dealing across the table with the administration, and it's it's been historically trust but verify as best as we can.

Uh but it's always good to have some uh outside uh eyes looking at at uh and researchers looking at some of the things that we do so we can have an independent uh presentation to us.

So you have nothing else to add?

Thank you.

Yeah, I would say thank you.

It's very it's very kind and it's wonderful to hear that uh the research can be useful.

I'm the director of the research center, and we are always happy to help serve and provide uh data-driven information to the council or to the city as needed.

And how we can partner with with with students uh where we could get students assisting us.

I think I was gonna mention that as well.

It's we are all in this together right in the backyard here.

So happy to be involved.

Thank you.

So at this point, if I can if I you know to kind of touch on staffing as well, and they want to appreciate that you you're right, council have approved uh 180 recruits, and we really appreciate that.

Thank you very much.

And also through the Merit's Rise Initiative, obviously increasing the ability to attract uh more uh qualified candidates to become police officers.

Right.

Um as you know, we have an academy class and now we have an academy class that we're graduating next month in December.

Uh and we also just finished uh um going through the process of uh having another class starting next month.

Uh we're gonna have an expedited uh hiring event in January.

So all that to say that we're we're constantly, at least through the division of police hiring individuals uh to make it up to our budgeted number right now, which is 1350.

We're not that far off.

Right.

Uh when you consider that uh we have 78 recruits in right now, which puts us our numbers uh over 1200 at this particular time, again, including this 78 recruits that we have.

So we're moving towards our budget number, but again, appreciate the council approving the 180 recruits.

Well, we're committed.

And I want to thank my colleagues for promoting the hiring uh dates and and uh recruitment um activity.

We're all in this together, and I would say to the viewing public, if you know of anyone who would be interested in and checking out the Cleveland Division of Police, uh, children, grandchildren, neighbors, folks you come into contact with, please pay attention and watch for the the hiring events that will be taking place.

We want to have a police department that is reflective of our city.

That's critical in my opinion.

So if I can as well can I just hope that S again, it's January 9th, 10th, and 11th of uh 2026.

It's gonna be here at the uh Cleveland City Hall.

And again, it's uh the starting salary list top salary, not starting, but top salary is about 89, 526.

That's after three, four years.

Um you have also assigned and bonus up to $5,000.

So please, you know, we are hiring.

With and with an outstanding health care package.

Absolutely can pass the absolutely healthcare tremendous health care.

I believe the Cadillac of healthcare system for health care here in the City of Police.

That is correct, yes, sir.

Fifty years of age.

Okay.

I'm gonna ask Flock.

I think Flock.

I'm gonna ask ShotSpotter.

I'm getting I'm confused with all the emails I'm getting myself here.

Uh I'm gonna ask ShotSpotter to come to the table just for some brief comments.

Please come on up.

And I'm gonna call upon Councilman Starr then.

House Jones come.

Introduce yourself, gentlemen.

Hold the mic up close, very close.

Good morning, Mr.

Chairman.

My name is Gary Bunyard.

I'm senior vice president of corporate development for sound thinking.

Sound thinking is ShotSpotter.

Correct.

Okay.

Uh good morning, Chairman.

My name is Richard Bash, and I am your customer success director for the City of Cleveland.

Okay.

And I'm also with Soundthinking slash ShotSpotter.

Okay.

Gentlemen, what's your you've you've heard the report, you've seen it.

What's your comments?

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Would like to open with uh a statement just telling this group uh the importance of the partnership that we have uh forged with uh Cleveland Division of Police over the last five years.

Right.

Feel very good about the value of the service we provided over that time period.

We're very pleased to see the report that uh the CSU team put together.

Uh agree with the vast majority of the findings in that report.

Uh there are a couple of areas we would like to clarify, provide additional information before we do that, would also add that uh we understand Cleveland Division of Police is at the point where they are looking at other technologies and integration options.

And uh we uh we have a lot of technology beyond the Shot Spotter product that we offer, and we would hope to have the opportunity to participate in that evaluation process, and uh make sure everybody here is able to make a fully informed decision regarding the options, not only with the flock, other vendors and and sound thinking.

Okay.

I'd like to add one.

Sure, go ahead and invite Mr.

Bash to comment on the on the whole subject of integration in the support of uh other technologies.

Right, go ahead.

Thank you, uh Chairman.

Uh so just a couple of points.

The the assistant director is absolutely correct that our sensors are placed to be optimal for listening for gunfire.

Those sensors are placed for that optimization.

Cameras, like license plate readers are placed for optimizing the ability to read license plates.

Yes.

Those locations are not going to be the same, very seldom.

Lastly, your neighborhood safety cameras, they're also placed strategically to find the areas that would have the most crime with the most value.

Again, very seldom will any of those locations be co co-located because they're completely different technologies.

I do want to talk a little bit about the integration, uh, because we currently integrate with your CAD system, your computer-aided dispatch system, so that the dispatchers don't have to input additional data when they get a ShotSpotter alert.

We're also integrated with your real-time crime center software called FUSIS.

And FUSIS is uh a nationally known, it's an axon product, and what it does is it integrates many different technologies into itself.

So license plate readers, cameras, drones, all go into FUSIS in your real-time crime center, but also ShotSpotter goes into that FUCSIS system as well.

So we have those integrations already in existence today.

Okay, okay.

So I will go ahead.

I'm sorry if I may add briefly.

Um we also, since we deployed the uh system here five years ago, have expanded our product suite dramatically in today, as an example.

We all offer license plate readers, tightly integrated with with ShotSpotter, tightly integrated with the insight database analytics tools that are available with ShotSpotter.

And we've taken steps to make sure we can easily integrate with a variety of different camera video technologies, license plate readers, drones, and a variety of other technologies.

Okay.

No, sir.

Okay.

Okay.

Okay.

I'm going to jump into the oh, my last question to you.

You mentioned you agree with most of the report from CSU.

What don't you agree with?

Uh Chair, I disagree is probably a very strong word.

Uh I believe that when they mention about our integration and our analytics, uh, we do have a pretty robust analytics program that we put in our insight product.

Okay.

And we also issue uh regular data on a monthly basis so that the agencies are aware of their hotspots for a given month, uh, the days of the week, the hours of the day where they're getting the most gunfire from us.

Okay.

Thank you.

But but the overall report you agree with.

Yes, sir.

We agree with the overall report.

The the the biggest area of concern dealt with integration in that we have literally hundreds of systems we integrate with around the country.

Okay.

And would like the opportunity to elaborate on that at some point.

Okay.

Well, the two representatives, you should be happy with that.

See that?

They're complimenting your work.

That's uh that's very um very um very important.

Okay, I'm gonna jump right into my colleagues' line of questioning.

Again, we're gonna go what everyone is going to be given their 15 minutes of time.

Let's start with Councilman Richard Starr, Councilman.

Thank you, Chair.

Um, I'll be real quick and try to get straight to the facts.

Um, because I remember in 2022 when Shot Spider came um to the table when it was introduced for the administration and everybody was so happy.

So through the chair to the director, everyone said SHOSPotter is going to help us.

It is not going to be the actual um reason why we decrease crime.

We know that it could be a component to help assist with that, as I paraphrase some of the comments that was mentioned when Shah Spotter was introduced where we heard some different pros and cons, and the administration was in all support of um ShopSpotter.

So now we get here uh let me see, roughly three years later, and we hear a report uh regarding what's going on from Shah Spotter since the last three years.

So my first question would be through the chair to the CSU team.

Um, within your research that you currently have presented today, do you have a contract with the city of Cleveland that paid you to do this actual research to the chair?

Whoever can answer that.

Um I'm sorry, and this is my first time um at the table.

The language is to say to the chairperson.

Yeah, to the uh I was listening earlier, but uh it's okay.

To the council person through the chair.

Yes, yes, okay.

Um we uh the contract was uh issued through this city of Cleveland.

Um and uh uh the Office of Urban AI was our point of contact from the city side of things for the contract.

And through the chair through the chair, um, when was that contract issued to CSU or when was the RFP that went out for you to be able to bid on that contract?

Do you happen to know?

I believe the RF oh sorry, excuse me, to um council person through the chair.

The I believe the RFP was in November of 2022 around then.

Um I know that we applied by in January, I think.

Um and then the contract started in May of 2023.

So to the chair to the to the CSU team, your contract that you have in place to do the research and keep up with the data has been going on for three years.

Uh two years.

Two years.

Two years.

And how many reports have you done uh regarding each data each year?

How many reports have you sent back to the city regarding each data year to year on an annual basis?

How often have you um submitted some different data too?

Would you hear the comment?

To the councilperson through the chair.

Um, as part of our contract, we issued semi-annual semi-annual reports um during the contract period, but had monthly check-in meetings, but we issued reports on our progress semi-annually.

All right, through the chair, I definitely will ask some more different questions.

Um thank you, CSU team.

I know I've done some work with you all um since y'all are in war five.

Um, but I definitely want to say uh to the city of Cleveland, I understand that we've had this contract, and it looks at it that the prior administration in 2019 was the original ones who wanted to pilot this program, and then the current administration was actually the ones who able to roll it out throughout different parts of the city.

Um I definitely question I would ask to um CSUs who've done the research.

Do you know how many cities in the United States are using Shot Spotter?

Whoever can answer that.

To the council person, uh councilperson through the chair, we don't.

Oh, sorry, yeah.

But uh other people might I was gonna say direct that to Shot Spotter.

Shot Spotter, can you let us know how many other cities in the United States um is currently using Shot Spotter to the chair?

Uh yes, sir.

Approximately 175 municipalities around the country.

And if uh and about a half a dozen abroad.

Okay, 175 and a half, okay, no problem.

Um, then also when it comes to the actual cost of using shot spotter to the shot spotter team, um, through the chair, how much does it cost for to get shot spotter up and running in the city?

Or a matter of fact, what is the actual breakdown of the cost that we the city of Cleveland enter into a contract with you from 2022 to 2020?

Councilman, it should be directed to the administration.

To the administration, rather to through the chair to the councilman, it was 914,250 a year.

914,000.

Repeat that again.

Nine 914,250 a year for total two million seven hundred and forty-two thousand seven hundred and fifty dollars.

Okay.

Okay.

Oh, thank you.

And I understand that with this.

No, I have a different figure.

It is three million.

Yeah, I have three point.

Sorry, I I missed uh it's three million one hundred and ninety-one thousand seven hundred and fifty dollars.

Okay, all right.

All right.

Now we're getting there.

Okay, from that standpoint, um the reason why I'm asking some of these questions is just trying to get uh understanding of what is actually going on with SHOSPotter.

Um from the overview and the CSU report, we found some good things that ShawSpotter has done, and then we filed some negative things from the standpoint.

Um and from that, I would like to understand from the administration when we enter into this agreement to use ShotSpotter, what was our main goal from ShotSpotter to utilize for them?

Was we using ShotSpotter to say, hey, this is going to help us in gun violence, or is this a part of our safety plan?

And what part have they did deliver on, or what have they not been able to deliver on that you thought that they were currently going to do through the through the chair?

Through the chair, Councilman Stark.

Uh thanks for your question.

Um we obviously had in partnership with uh sound thinking, well, shot spider time not sound thinking to help our officers, just give our officers additional tools to be able to respond to uh calls for shots uh shots uh fired.

Uh statistically, we knew that uh folks, some folks just did not call uh when shots are being fired.

So we wanted to make sure we had some type of a tool that would but would uh enable our officers to respond quickly to shots being fired.

And and through the the years that we've had um shot spotter uh sound thinking, our officers did receive uh calls that sometimes folks didn't call, and uh our officers responded, identified the victims that were shot subsequent to uh our folks getting there.

We did receive uh 911 calls.

Um, but that enabled our officers to uh effectuate um um uh first aid to some of these victims, and uh we believe that really aided in uh the survivability of some of those individuals.

So for me, that alone um uh is worth the technology at that particular point.

Um so we believe that it was uh um we believe uh from administrative standpoint that it was money well spent if we have the ability to respond to calls for service where someone actually is a victim and to be able to uh hopefully uh save a life of uh that particular victim and also effectuate uh the arrest of individuals involved uh in uh that particular criminal act.

Part of it is to make sure that we drive down violent crime.

Um when we implemented this technology, again, uh the things we looked at, at least the data points, data sets, or homicides, false assault shootings, and other violent crimes and so forth, and that's why we put those detectors, we didn't, but so I'm thinking that put those detectors in those particular areas to again enable our officers to respond to shots fired calls, the most important, the most uh dangerous, most important quote ones to be able to get to the scene as quickly as possible.

Um again, if someone's uh injured, uh get aid to them or provide aid and hopefully make arrest of individuals.

Thank you, thank you, say director.

Don't take up all my time now that he ain't got that clock running.

Um chair, I definitely will ask, so given your response you just gave, do you feel that it is it is necessary for the city of Cleveland to continue to use ShotSpotter here in our city as a part of the um safety division of police uh while being able to police our neighborhoods through this through the chair?

Through the chair to Councilman Starr.

I think it's important that we have uh tools and part of the tools that I think it's very important for the division of police to have the Department of Public Safety is uh gunshot detection technology.

Yes, I believe it is vital and it's a tool that we can use to integrate into the other technologies that we currently have.

Thank you.

And through the standpoint of that, um once we have different technologies in place and shot spotter reports come in.

Do we share those information or with any other agency within the country of any way the data that we have from shop spotter, do we share that information through the chair?

To the direct group.

Uh through the chair to the uh councilman star.

I'm not quite sure.

Do you mean the report itself or just the sh the uh the sound thinking data from the from the sound thinking data?

Do we share it with uh other individuals?

Individuals, entities, organizations who request this information.

Do you have to the to the through the chair councilman?

Uh to my knowledge, I I'm not sure we have Captain Gallagher here who may be able to impart some some information.

I do not believe that we're sharing or receiving a request from any agencies outside of City of Cleveland for our shot spotter data.

Captain identify yourself for the VM.

My name is Captain Matthew Gallagher.

Good morning.

Uh pull your mic close up to you.

To the councilman to the chair.

Good morning, Captain Matthew Gallagher.

I don't have an accurate answer right now, but it's something I could I could look for you.

Okay, thank you.

And I'm asking these questions because obviously we've seen this past week we had a um the administration introduced an ordinance number 1367-2025, um, authorizing the director of public safety to enter into a contract with Flock Group.

And I'm just trying to get the understanding of what's the difference.

So I definitely want to put out to the um dean if there is some type of conversation with Flock where the ordinance has been introduced, is there a way to bring Flock to the table?

Because I would like to ask them questions as well, similar to some of the questions that we are asking today, because we have to make sure what we do is the actual right thing to do, and we're giving the administration what they need to be able to get their job done, and we don't want to leave no nothing on the table.

Um I know the contract, I believe you said the contract is ending with um shot spotters coming up and ending.

And I would ask a question are we going to put out an RFP?

Matter of fact, let me rephrase that question through the chair.

Did we put out an RFP with this new company which allowed Flock to be able to enter into a contract potentially?

Because how Flock became an ordinance that we want to say we want to go into a potential contract with them.

Did we have RFP process out?

Through the chair, the councilman starter.

No, we did not have RFP out.

That's correct.

So therefore, Flock came to the city and said, hey, we got this opportunity to do something for you, and then we just introduce a piece of legislation without putting out an RFP process.

Through the chair, we have uh we already have partnerships with Flock and other um companies as well.

Um we already in contract, we already have contracts with Flock for their license plate reader technology, which we have throughout the city of Cleveland.

And then through the chair, do you know how long Flock has been in service as doing license plate reader?

Through the chair through the chair with with the city of Cleveland, not quite sure how long they've been in business, but the city of Cleveland, I think it's been since 203, I believe is the 233.

23, I believe, is when they're actually, although we've used their technology through the county.

The county's had Flock system in here, I believe since 20, uh uh 2020.

We've uh utilized the technology, but the city of Cleveland did not have a contract with them.

We started using their technology in 2023.

And I see I have two minutes left.

I'm wrapping up and to the through the chair.

Um, with the Flock program and what they have, do they have the capabilities, technology to be gunshot detections as well as similar to what ShotSpot does through the chair?

I I can't talk about their similarities or anything like that, but yes, uh Flock does offer gunshot tech uh detection technology.

All right, and then um also I did some research on it on difference between shot spot technology as well as um the flock.

And what I understand is that in the Indianapolis um police department, they conducted a formal test of Flock and Shot Spotter gunshock detection system, comparing the performance of both systems.

Is that something y'all have looked at so far before we um put out this?

I guess got a contract with Flock or ordinance.

Did we look at anything like that?

There's no no we have no contract.

There's a piece of legislation.

Piece of legislation, I'm sorry.

Yeah, chair.

Through the chair, councilman.

I I'm not aware of that particular um research that you just mentioned.

Yes, because I would love for us to put that on record that we should definitely look at what was done in Indiapolis, and you will learn the difference between the two systems in place where one is more effective and license plate reader, and one is more experienced over 25 years of gun viol gun gun violence um detections opportunities in the cities.

Yes, there's some different things that both can do great, but when you look at the comparison, when you talk about gun violence and detecting guns, um there is nothing to compare.

Shot spotter does that's what they're designed to do.

And then license plate reader is something that Flock is doing.

So when we talk about gunshot, when we talk about violence and coming up with technology to assist, uh we need to make sure we have the tools necessary in place to help with our police to force and everything like that.

And I wrap up this last part that I would definitely say is um I definitely will ask to the gunshots um make sure I say it right.

Sound thinking group.

Um I noticed that you you mentioned about around 175 municipalities is using gunshot.

Um I'm a shot spotter technology, but I did find that there has been a numerous amount of list of cities who have discontinued the technology cities, such as um Chicago in 2024, Dayton in 2023, Tacoma in 2023, uh Chicago, Illinois.

Well, North Carolina, Durham, Portland, Oregon.

Orland, Oregon don't really have crime though.

But San Antonio, Texas, San Diego, California, Houston, Texas, Indianapolis, well, that ain't really clear.

They still using it.

I will ask to the chair to just shots to the Sound Thinking Organization.

Can they provide some of the reasons why a list of these cities or states discontinue shot spotter?

And what did they receive from those cities as they decided to not to discontinue shot spotter through the chair?

And that'd be it, Chair.

Thank you.

Yeah, you paid attention to your time.

Shot spotter or sound thinking care to respond.

Through the chair to Councilman Starr.

Today we have about 175 agencies using our gunshot detection technology.

As more and more agencies see gun violence coming down and budgets getting tighter.

There are more agencies that are scrutinizing this type of technology and whether or not they want to continue with gunshot detection, and in some cases actually reducing the gunshot detection coverage.

Probably the most publicized termination scenario you referenced is the City of Chicago.

And that was a decision made by the mayor as a campaign promise.

And we are going through an RFP process, participating in an RFP that they put out to evaluate the latest technology and feel very good about where we are positioned in that evaluation.

Okay.

You referenced a few others.

I I can say that as an example, San Antonio, that went back to 2015 was the scenario where a city councilman brought us in.

The chief of police was not really supportive of the technology.

As a pilot, it never really got off the ground.

What I'd like to do is turn to my partner here real quickly and just speak very briefly to the number of agencies here in this the state of Ohio that are using the product very productively today.

Yeah, briefly because we have other council people have questions.

Yes, go ahead.

Through the chair to the councilman.

I can speak specifically to Dayton because they were a client of mine, and that chief was vocal in his support for ShotSpotter and how we were helping them reduce crime in Dayton.

Unfortunately, when he called me, said we just don't have the money.

Dayton is suffering significantly with finances, and he was apologetic, uh, but indicated that they just couldn't continue the system.

Uh here in the state of Ohio, uh we have certainly your neighbor uh with Cuyahoga Fall, uh, excuse me, uh Warwinsville Heights, uh, we have East Cleveland as well.

We also have the City of Columbus, and we have Cincinnati.

So the three largest jurisdictions within the state of Ohio uh again uses our system and about a the same square mileage, right about three thirteen.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um I want to just uh educate all all of our colleagues in the viewing public.

The funds that we utilize to implementation of the shot spotter was uh ARPA funds, America Rescue Act.

So obviously those funds have gone bye-bye.

So we have to be very mindful what whatever we do from this point on that we are have to be um very cost um uh efficient and um in moving forward here.

Um go just go back before I call Stephanie House Jones, Councilwoman.

The contract expired when with ShotSpotter?

November 2nd, to the chair, November 2nd.

So how is the system still in place if it expired?

From conversations with uh Soundthinking, uh we have uh uh we're still active uh through is it April?

Uh I believe April of uh next year, I think we have uh um at least uh uh portion of nine square miles, I believe, are still active uh relative to our contract.

So are we paying them on a monthly base?

How are we doing it with since the contract expired?

I'm not gonna through the chair, it's it's on a because we signed different at different times, and again, uh Sound Thinking is at the table as well.

Um we sign on an annual basis, uh the contracts run on an annual basis.

Okay.

Okay, so it is so as of today, shot spotter system is still in place.

Through the chair, that's correct.

And will be until April.

Through the Chair, I believe.

And I don't want to speak out of out of turn.

Can you could you um clarify?

They would have to clarify.

Sound thinking I don't want to speak for sound thinking.

Mr.

Chairman, uh the contract that is in place today is built upon two phases.

Phase one is three miles, phase two is 10 miles.

Phase one has expired.

Phase two is in place through April of 26 and is paid up through April of 26.

And that's the 10 So they're no longer 13 square miles.

It's just 10 square miles.

We have continued to leave the three square miles active in pending discussions with the division of police regarding their wishes for those three square miles.

Thank you.

Thank you for the education.

So through the chair, we're still they're still active.

Okay, Councilwoman Stephanie House Jones.

The floor is yours.

Thank you.

So there are just a couple of things through the chair to the team here.

Good afternoon.

I'm going to just start off and I'm going to go through the phases of the evaluation, which I am I am grateful that the committee amended the original legislation to include evaluation.

And I think that's part of the work of this body, and just overall, we have to start assessing the work that we do.

We really have to just stop just doing really assessing it.

And I don't know what was there an intention to think that this technology would actually build a level of trust within community member.

Was there was that an initial expectation?

Seeing that in the report it was reported, and I guess this is more for the administration, seeing that the tool, as we know, just like policing in general, it's after the fact, right?

It's after the crime has happened, and it is not actual crime prevention strategy.

Was there an intention or hope or thought that this being able to have this as a tool that there will be some building of trust from community members?

Through the Chair Council member uh House Jones, yes, that was part of the process with uh implementation of the shot spotter sound thinking uh technology.

Um yes, that officers once they received a notification that there was a shot spotter alert, respond to that particular area.

Again, um the premises if there is uh victim, we can render aid to the victim, hopefully find suspects and individuals responsible for that and hold them accountable for that particular act, coupled with if the individuals were not there, the officers would respond, uh get out the cars, walk around that particular area, hopefully find evidence, showcase and otherwise, um also uh canvas the area, actually go door to door in the particular area, um, confer um with uh uh witnesses, hopefully, and neighbors and so forth, and just give the uh uh the ability for the neighbors to interact and talk with the officers who are responding in that particular area.

So we believe that's an opportunity for engagement with uh um the officers as well as community, which we believe in in effect will uh um cause or we would hope um result in the community having uh better trust and faith and confidence in our division of police.

Okay.

Thank you for that.

Um so again, because I come from a mindset of crime prevention, like that is how I'm always coming up to this table.

We need to work on preventing crime.

And so through the chair, um to the director, as we look at, I know many times you have indicated that spot shot spotter itself has been able to save.

Did you say like 52, 53?

How many lives I don't know how many lives do you attribute being saved as a result of shot spotter?

Whoever can answer that.

Through the chair, the councilwoman House Jones, again, great question.

Um talking with uh Captain Gallagher, we don't have the stats in front of us, probably should have.

Um we have over 50 50 lives, we believe are impacted uh once we received uh the gunshot detection alert.

Um officers responded, and I'll be quick.

I know you have your time.

Uh officers responded, did find someone that was uh injured, shot, and rendered first aid, of course, the MS is responding as well.

Uh we believe that was part of uh that we believe that our actions responding uh saved the lives of those individuals.

We know that subsequent to that, it's in the report, CSU report that we did receive subsequent 911 calls, but the initial shots fired, there were no 911 calls.

Our officers responded, found a victim, and rendered first aid.

Okay, through the chair to the director, because this is the consistent question that I asked consistently, because again, my mindset is preventing crime with the data analysis that we have.

With the data analysis that we have, have we looked at well, A, how many perpetrators were convicted as a result of the shot spider support, and how have we developed a crime prevention strategy specifically to be able to identify the profile of victims and perpetrators that then would lead us to a crime prevention strategy to say what would happen, what we needed to do so that the victim wouldn't be there, the perpetrator wouldn't be there.

How have we utilized uh information in that way?

Director We did not capture that particular information that you're you're talking about.

You said what?

We did not capture the information that you you just mentioned.

Okay, um we're gonna go back to that later through the I appreciate it.

Cecil, if I could just clarify or add some context to the chair.

In order, so police reports have police report numbers when they go through the Muni court and then sometimes bound over to the pro to the county court if it's a felony, it has a municipal court case number and then it has a felony court or court of common police case number that's separate from that.

So most police departments, I believe ours doesn't or is unable to track how a re because the police report is not connected with a case number with um the court system.

Through the chair to the team, this is a fundamental problem.

So how are we actually even developing a crime prevention strategy if we don't have a full analysis of the victims and perpetrators so that we can actually prevent crime?

So if it is not coming from the division of police to develop a crime prevention strategy, then who here should we be working with to develop a crime prevention strategy?

This is a thing that I am talking about consistently.

We are doing a lot of work, but we are not really effective in doing and making the necessary investment so that we can truly work to prevent the 50 sum of people from getting shot or having homicides or even the perpetrators.

What are we doing?

And again, we don't have a much larger conversation on this, but this is when I've come into Cleveland City Council.

I've been saying this from our juvenile perpetrators to even here and now.

What are we doing?

It is not good enough just to show up.

We have to come up with a more integrated strategy.

But I'm gonna go through more of this report.

If I can, if I can briefly, because I know you have time, but sensitive to your time to the chair councilwoman.

We have uh crime data analyst in each of the police districts, or we have five, we have several, but one per district.

Uh part of what you're talking about to be more of a crime prevention strategy is is to, of course, get data data.

We also use the data from Sound Thinking, which is uh um shot spot or gunshot detection technology data and so forth.

Based on that with our crime analysts, we're able to um uh know where certain crimes are taking place.

Um based on that data, uh, we're able to know probably the not only the the times and and and and uh um high frequency times and so forth, that information is then given to our our commanders.

Our commanders then can deploy their resources based on the data.

For an example, we've had uh multiple burglaries a couple of years ago, and let's say a year and a half ago, where individuals were breaking into dollar stores and others BEs and so forth, based on our crime analysts, they're able to detect uh patterns, detect uh times, um, and based on that, the division of police were able to put up a detail together, and they were able to catch the individuals in the act.

So that's for me, that's crime prevention based on data that we have and we collect.

Okay.

So that's the thing.

We're gonna talk about it.

It's it's a difference.

I'm saying it prevented it.

What was the person who were involved in the actual burglaries?

What happened to them to even cause them to be in and involved in this level of burglars?

I think a very clear decision, but I'm not going, this is not what we're here for.

But I'm gonna give my time because you've been taking a lot of my time.

And I got some more questions.

Go ahead, Director.

Do the chair, I mean, goes for the first time.

Well, also, as you're aware, uh, through the chair to council uh woman House Jones, as you're aware, we also have the mayor's office of prevention, intervention, opportunity and so forth, which is into prevention and opportunities and so forth.

So I want to make sure that that we we shot that out as well so they have their work that they're doing, not only they have their work they're doing with the community members as well as the Department of Public Safety and Division of Police.

But when we look at the investment of that office compared to the overall system, we are getting the results that we do because it is not even five percent.

But that's neither here nor there.

So going into the report, um the uh shot spotter team um thinking team, they were talking about how um they have this technology, and um there's a lot of things that it can actually do.

And one of the things that's very insightful in the analysis is that you see that we have this technology.

I don't know what the training was for the detectives and the investigators, but clearly, as it shows in this report, many of them aren't even using it.

So when you do an when you do an analysis, um, I mean this is on like page 71 or so, but I it was it was amazing to me, where they can do a uh uh a simple report, but it said it was a question is it said, however, most investigators did not request a detailed forensic report from Shot Spider.

30 percent said never, 18% said rarely.

So this is a thing that I I am just we buy and make investments into technology.

I don't know what the training was that was provided to all members of our police department, but for the significant investment that we have to the tune of three million dollars to see that we have we have not prepared our um public servants to fully utilize it to get all of the data, it's a bit disappointing.

And so I will say and I will encourage the division as we are looking at other things to utilize that we are effectively training our people so that they can know how to use it so that we can get what we need to, because the evaluation has shown us that it is not occurring.

So that's neither here nor there.

And if you want to comment on it, you can so I can get to the bulk about stuff in my last five minutes.

Uh-huh.

Do the chair to the councilwoman uh I could comment.

So those say what I'm my understanding of that data point, it shows raw numbers of who requests who doesn't make requests for those uh type of reports.

Um, I think one consideration to take into account is whether such a detailed report would be necessary for the call or the shot that was made.

If it's shots, you go there and you don't see anything, it's really not necessary to put in for that extra report if you see a case and there you find a victim and things like that, and it's gonna go to trial potentially.

That's when those type of reports really become valuable.

So I I get that very completely through the chair to the team here.

So in the in the instances that uh cases went to trial, what was the percentage of the detailed uh report analysis being used?

Because you said and and you you've just laid out the pack, the the fact as to when and how it would be utilized.

So if you can let me know, do you have the statistics to let me know?

Well, then as it related to these detailed analysis, what percentage of the time was the detailed analysis used for then when these cases went to court?

Director.

Good chair.

We we don't have that information in front of us, but we certainly can.

But also, uh, and stated before, and I'll be quick.

I know you have other questions, uh, council member through the chair of the council woman, the House Jones.

Um we have data analysts.

I I believe when we initially started this program with ShotSpotter and so forth, we didn't have data analysts, and I'm not trying to make excuses for the detectives that are assigned to to get the information and data, the data from uh Sound Thinking to be able to give that to the commanders.

We have uh we have a crime analyst assigned to each district that can extrapulate that that information, put it in a forum, and give it to the respective district commanders so that again they can deploy um to those particular areas where we're having uh pro issues which with uh violent crime as well as uh shots being fired.

Okay.

And just in this time, um really on this question of building community trust, um it it really is when you like look at the just the very series of questions, and this is like I said, this is part of the reason why I am here in Cleveland City Council to bring voice um to not even just my own lived experience, but for those that are around me.

And I think far too often people are not listening, we are not paying attention, and we are not designing our work in service based on people's real realities, right?

Um when you look at um the responses uh you know of the sampling, but in this report that talk about just in generally responses about CDP's responses to violence varied.

Um they said 40 percent were satisfied, and about 43 percent were unsatisfied.

Um is reported having been more dissatisfied with CDP CDP's response to preventing gun violence, almost 54 54 percent were disf dissatisfied with CDP's response to preventing gun-related violence.

It was like 41% and 40.

It said that this is one again that really says this chart shows a notable distribution across all satisfaction levels of CDP's response to interacting with residents in a way that builds community trust.

While 31% of residents felt satisfied about police community relations, 14% was neither satisfied nor dis dissatisfied.

And 55% reported dissatisfaction, including a trust cap gap that could be addressed through engagement strategies.

And it's more on in there, but I I I um that's like the many times I know people are like, well, why is she so hard?

It's like, you know, I'm always questioned and I'm always challenging our division of polices because this stuff that's being captured and this evaluation, I know what's happening because again, you see you talk to people.

We have to change this perception.

It's not good enough to just come and show up and feel like, oh, we're doing the best.

Sometimes your best is not enough, and sometimes you need to make changes.

And again, I I I just I really challenge us as a body to do better.

Stop being so beholden to outdated antiquated processes that are not serving our people.

If the overwhelming majority say they are not buying what you're selling, we have to change, especially the communities that are impacted.

I mean, they go into even the perceptions of where we think the technology is.

People believe they are being over surveillance.

It's not what you telling them.

People don't feel it, they don't see it.

And again, like I said, this is a very, very lengthy lifty report, but we need to start taking stock of this stuff and just stop working to serve ourselves.

It serves the people of the city of Cleveland.

They deserve that.

Their voice needs to be heard, and their voices in a very real way need to be implemented in the practices and the technologies that we are capturing.

I'll leave it at there, Mr.

Chairman.

Thank you.

Um, and thank you.

Thank you for telling me.

Councilman Schleify.

Thank you.

Um I want to just begin by saying I I think the police are charged with uh a goal of reducing crime, and that's something we can all participate in.

The police are also required to investigate crimes after they occur, which is not something that I can participate in in the same way because I am not legally able to provide evidence that would be satisfactory to a court of law.

So with that in mind, I want to talk about theory versus practice.

I agree in theory that tools like uh not exclusive to shot spotter could be useful to indirectly prevent crime, and I want to emphasize indirectly and could be useful in investigating crimes after they have occurred.

The questions that I have really are related to whether that is merely a theory or if it is occurring in practice.

Uh I have four questions.

We're gonna get all through through all of them.

Uh my first is uh for our visitors from CSU, really only because I have you.

It's it's it's a little beyond the context of this specific report.

But whether it's shot spotter or drones or cameras, we do hear frequently uh from uh members of the community about Fourth Amendment concerns, and in this report, it sort of becomes a moot point because it's determined that the technology is unable to pick up any meaningful uh trace of a person's voice.

Are you comfortable characterizing the legal expectations of privacy in the private realm versus privacy in the public realm?

And if the technology were able to pick up voices, is it a Fourth Amendment concern or is this merely is it what where does the the lower expectation of privacy within the public?

Where does that cross a line into a Fourth Amendment concern?

Because my assumption would be that if you're out on the street and you're talking that you do not have a reasonable expectation of privacy.

Who would care to comment?

I will say that.

We are not lawyers.

Well, I'm not even.

Yeah, uh, sorry.

Okay, through the chair.

Let's sit up, listen up through the chair assistant director.

Thank you.

Uh, through chair has kids back when I was a assistant county prosecutor for seven and a half years in Lake County, often dealt with uh these Fourth Amendment concerns.

Fourth Amendment protects you from unreasonable search and seizure without a warrant.

One of the main considerations is whether or not it's a search.

Um you are correct in talking about one of the standards is do you have an expectation of privacy?

Um and your differentiation between the public and private realm is also a consideration that's taken to account um case law does not uh protect um it's not considered a search when you're speaking in public um on a public street, unless there are state laws uh preventing that.

As you know, uh state of Ohio is a one party consent state, meaning that if I call you on the phone, I don't have and I record you, I don't have to notify you that you're being recorded.

Um stop doing that.

Yeah, I know I need it.

I have this whole trope.

Um but um same thing, like you see this also with license plates, right?

Um when you're driving around in the most public thing you could do is have a license plate on your car.

You're driving around on public streets.

Do you have an expectation of privacy on that license plate number that you're required to have on the state in order to drive that car?

No, you don't.

If you're in a restaurant and you're talking in a restaurant and you're talking loud enough where the person in the booth next to you can hear you, do you have in a let's say an officer is sitting there and that officer hears you discuss a crime?

Is that a search?

No, it is not.

You're in a public place talking loudly enough where someone could hear you.

Um you do not have an expectation of privacy.

Thank you.

I don't want to belabor the point.

I do have and I understand why people have uh discomfort with being overly surveilled.

Uh I I I share it in many aspects, but I worry that our current community conversations have gone further, uh further, an overinterpretation of the Fourth Amendment that would suggest something to the effect of, and and I will just share my disagreement that a drone at a public gathering is a Fourth Amendment violation uh which has been characterized.

I just that you're in public.

That's my personal opinion.

Um it is it's it's it's it's wild to state, but it is not inherently illegal to discharge a gun in the city of Cleveland.

And and I'm curious, which it it should be, and this body is unable to affect that change in the law.

Uh that is that is state law.

Um what were there any instances where shot spotter resulted in officers being uh uh having a priority one call for something that was otherwise legal behavior, determined to be legal behavior?

Through the chair, I don't have that information in front of me.

Um we can look report.

Okay.

I missed that in the executive summary.

I'm assuming it wasn't prolific, but it did occur.

Uh correct, we weren't uh to the council person through the chair.

We weren't able to uh determine exactly how many uh uh through the the data that we were given.

Um but yes, uh there were many calls that uh but primarily the issue is that they aren't able to determine if it's legal or not because unless there's a camera or some other reason to just uh to capture whether it was in a cemetery over a roadway on you know, like all the different contingencies that are part of the legislation uh or the the code, uh they're not able to determine whether it's a legal discharge of a firearm or not.

Okay.

Without additional evidence to support that.

I I only bring it up because I I share the concern about uh gun activity in this community.

Um, but there's a just pointing out we are seeing a reduction in priority to calls for assumed priority one issues that may or may not be uh legal, or if even if they are illegal, we're unable to uh demonstrate that.

It's it seems it's just an interesting allocation of resources.

When it's sort of initially, my question about whether this is effective in theory or in practice really comes down to the statistical significance.

So I think that there have been some anecdotes that we've received over the years about shot spotter resulted in 911 or 911 services arriving on scene and helping to raid life saving aid.

I do believe I recalled in the report that most, if not all of those instances did have a corresponding 911 call.

So in my in uh uh it would be a reasonable expert or a reasonable interpretation to question whether Shot Spotter was a statistically significant contributor to that life-saving aid or if it was just coincidentally happening alongside it.

I use that as an example.

I am interested, and and I didn't see this in the report.

I saw where there were a lot of data, and uh that's not a criticism that the report could have been a thousand pages if if we kept going.

But I did not see any information on whether there uh about overall crime increases, decreases within the geographies, especially in the fourth district where it was implemented first, so there would theoretically be a longer period over which you could draw data.

I'm curious if that was analyzed and if there was found to be a decrease in crime over that time period, uh, which I is very possible because we have seen crime trending in many indicators in a good direction.

Are we able to determine whether or not ShotSpotter was a statistically significant contributor to that, or are we only able to question whether it was merely something happening alongside a number of other factors?

Whoever can answer that.

Okay.

Um as criminologists um as all of you know, there's a lot of different things that can contribute to shifts in crime.

Um an ideal an ideal situation we would have been able to be there as as researchers before the technology was rolled out and when those choices were being made so that we could make sure we had um comparable areas as control areas to be able to really tease out that question.

Um part of it is the design, it makes it we're limited in that respect.

Um, several different reasons.

Um also we thought I'd be quick.

Um we we don't always um know uh actually Rachel Jump.

Do you did you want to say anything else?

I was trying to try to say like explain this.

Um we don't explain it where the average person can understand if you're gonna be able to do that.

Oh, we have to do that.

Yeah, sorry, sorry.

Lost my train of thought there for a second.

Um so well part of it also is that we don't we when we're having more officers coming to the district because of shot spotter calls.

We might see an increase, what seems like an increase in crime if we're measuring crime based on police response, right?

But that's an artificial increase because it's because if you send them, they will find.

Do if that makes sense.

So that's hard to tease out as well.

Uh yes, I would say uh to follow up on that.

It we we weren't be able to determine that through statistical significance.

Um other studies, there's lots of other studies from other jurisdictions that have looked at that question who were able to do it and have a control sample, um, or um and they determined that shot spotter doesn't reduce overall, really very few studies have found that shot spotter is directly co uh related to or has a direct effect on uh preventing gun violence.

Um and a lot of it has to do with the extent to which it's after the fact and to um it's really hard to follow up.

Bigger picture being able to respond to gun violence is one thing.

Does it actually reduce crime is about 12 steps later?

Sure.

And and from my my read of the report, uh a takeaway that I had, and correct me if this is a bad takeaway, was that as to the question of whether or not ShotSpotter is helpful in the investigation of reports is maybe to be determined because we haven't been putting the proper resources to maybe take advantage of the full the the full the full resources that theoretically we could we we weren't investigating to the level that maybe you would want to see for us to be able to draw more conclusive answer to that question.

I will I will say my my skepticism of whether ShotSpotter has that indirect crime prevention benefit uh is really stems from the idea, and I think when this came forward in 2022, I made sort of a flippant analogy of the count from Sesame Street, who's not gathering data for the sake of using the data, he's merely counting things because he likes to count.

And and is this going to lead to changes in zone patrols and are we going to learn lessons along the way or uncover information we wouldn't have otherwise, or are we merely quantifying a phenomenon that we're all painfully aware of through lived experience?

Um so that's sort of part or transitions into my final question uh to the director, which is really just that.

And and and we we basically took areas that we know are hot spots, and we put data or tools there to essentially reconfirm what we already suspected.

I'm wondering what if any new information came from this, how were zone patrols altered based on the data coming in?

What was there an indirect benefit to the division of police that caused them to police differently than they had been, or were we merely kind of quantifying the lived experience of many Clevelanders that's the question.

I think that would go to the director or assistant director.

Right.

Through the chair to Councilman Slife, thanks for the uh question.

Um I believe that uh the shot spotter data that we received here in division of police.

Um not necessarily change patrol habits.

Um I believe that enabled uh the commanders, uh, the command staff to again identify areas like you said that we we we uh believe based on statistics uh had increased uh violence, uh homicides, uh false assaults, shootings, you know, non fatals and fatals and so forth, to be able to concentrate on those particular areas uh to the point where we actually go into what we're called microgrids, which are the small, really small areas where we can have our officers concentrate on those.

And uh part of it is of course a reduction of violent crime, um, community engagement, of course, to enhance the trust of the community.

So I believe those were the uh take uh the for us um for the division of police and department of public safety, those are some of the the uh things that we're able to do uh were able to um um aid us as a division of uh police and uh making sure that we have the right resources to put in those particular areas.

So the shot spotter data, I believe, really helped us to do that.

And the other thing is we weren't receiving the calls, the 911 calls that is uh for shots fired or calls in general.

Not everyone calls 911 to call the non-emergency number as well uh for shots fired, we weren't receiving them.

Um so this gave us um the ability with the sound thinking shot spotter um uh gunshot detection technology gave us the ability to respond to areas where we were not receiving calls for service.

And based on that data, that information, we are able to, I believe, um, to respond to individuals that were shot.

I get reports and notifications every night about uh the violence that takes place if there are violence, not always.

I want to say that I don't want to paint a picture that there's violence that takes place in the city of Cleveland every night, I don't.

But what does I get the information and so forth, and I read the reports.

And what I find is that uh our officers are responding to the sh the gunshot detection technology, sound thinking, respond there before, and it's important, before we receive a 911, a corresponding 911 call, find a victim, render first aid, um, and then EMS or fire respond also to take over the uh the life-saving measures for those individuals.

So for for me, that happens more frequently than not.

And for me, just having the ability for our officers to receive those alerts, to respond to those areas, and to uh do life-saving measures on those people, in my very humble opinion, is worth the uh the uh the investment that we've uh invested in the uh gunshot uh detection technology?

I'll yield to my comments.

Okay.

Uh Councilwoman Moore Thank you.

Oh, we have to all turn to this end of the table now.

Um good morning, everybody.

My name is Councilwoman Rebecca Moore.

I appreciate the robust conversation that's happened so far.

I want to open up by talking a little bit about something I think a few of my colleagues have touched in, which touched on, which is the sort of ideological position of this body and of residents of the City of Cleveland to what is effectively government mass surveillance.

And I don't want anybody to think that that's not the critical elephant in the room.

We all have to decide how comfortable we are with additional surveillance, particularly at this moment of the Trump administration using surveillance technologies like this for attacks on black and brown communities and especially our immigrant uh brothers and sisters uh throughout Cleveland and Northeast Ohio and around the country.

Um I don't take that point lightly.

I wanted to make sure to open with it, and I'll also open with another anecdote which really um shaped my view of some of these surveillance technologies, which was my first summer during law school.

Uh I worked uh for a equivalent of legal aid in New York City that was representing a group of tenants who had been stuck in their high-rise apartment buildings uh being run by NYCHA, the New York equivalent of CMHA.

And they'd sued out and they'd finally, after years and years and years, won a settlement from NYCHA for being stuck in their apartments for years on end and just struggling with the quality of their apartments, crime crime riddled, really struggling to get the basics um in and out of their apartments.

And we brought in our uh clients, our our clients who wanted out to to help us decide where the settlement money was going to go.

And all of the ten all the lawyers in the room, you know, they wanted crime prevention, we wanted community services, we wanted additional social workers on site, and the number one things our clients wanted were cameras.

That was the number one things our clients wanted.

And I don't take the ideological approach lightly that when I say I personally am opposed to a surveillance state because I we've seen historically in America the way it's been used.

I don't believe that every community member is going to necessarily come to that conclusion based on their lived experience.

They are desperate for something that will impact their real lived experience of day-to-day crime.

And what I think it's our responsibility to tease out whether this technology can actually deliver on the things people are so hungry for.

They find themselves wanting cameras, they find themselves wanting solutions because their lives are intolerable and they're looking for something that can help.

And I think it's fair for this body to ask the question, and I think it's great of CSU to have helped us answer this question of whether technology is this technology is capable of doing that.

So I I will get off my soliloquy and head into the questions, but I hold in tension those two ideas that we have many community members who are looking for a solution to crime.

And what I think we all need to be rooted in, which is our level of comfort with additional surveillance, particularly as we're headed to a sort of integrated system uh that might tie in uh some things like AI, facial recognition, uh, and just general mass surveillance.

So with that approach in mind, I want to ask a couple of questions.

Uh, first to the CSU team, we've had a couple of mentions of the lives saved as a result of ShotSpotter.

Um and I'm wondering if you could share from your research and reporting whether it was confirmed that but for ShotSpotter, somebody would have passed away, or whether ShotSpotter was potentially one component of saving a life through the chair.

Identify yourself yes, thank you.

Um Stephanie can stay um through the chair to the council person.

Uh so the number the for all the the life save cases that we received from Cleveland police and um then compared them to the 911 calls, um there was a about a two-minute difference in the shot spotter alert to the time that somebody called 911.

So is it possible that that made a difference?

It's possible, but I don't know that there's any way we can really there should be variables for us, and I'm not not being a medical doctor to know you know what the situation was.

Um but there are those those cases are verified.

I know we were cup we were comfortable with the data that we received about those cases in terms of accuracy and and validity, if that's helpful.

But that's about all I can say about that.

You yeah, absolutely the chair, you were comfortable with the validity of the data in terms of incidents of people being shot, but there was not confirmation that the life was saved because of shot spotter through the chair.

Professor?

Uh to the uh to the chair to the council to the councilperson through the chair.

Um yes, I we're not med we weren't given the medical records of these individuals, so we weren't able to determine would, for example, a shot to the femur seems bad.

Uh would two minutes matter, probably to a shot to the side of the leg, maybe less so, right?

Like we weren't given the medical records to be able to confirm all of that, although we were able to see that there were gunshots and that they got there faster, but without going into the exact nature of the shots or where they were shot, we were unable to determine whether uh that two minutes made a difference in their life being saved or not.

Director, you want to comment on the chair to councilwoman.

I appreciate the question again.

Um again, the important thing for for me and uh from Department of Public Safety is that uh with this technology, and all of pointing it with this technology, um the officers, the the cases that we're referencing here, and probably others as well.

That's not being referenced.

Um we did not receive a 9-1 call initially.

The 9-1 will call uh the uh gunshot technology alerted our officers, our officers responded to that location, located a victim with with uh one or two of multiple gunshots and so forth, the severity they're not doctors as well, we're not doctors.

I do know that within two to three minutes, depending on the type of a wound that the individual received, they can bleed out.

That much I know from the experience, and also talking with Commissioner Wheeler from EMS.

So the two minutes, in my opinion, is extremely important.

Um with and again, we received the the uh sound thinking on the gunshot detection um alert, our officers responded, uh, found a victim and rendered aid.

Our officers, every single one of our officers and division of police received first aid training, advanced first aid training through EMS and so forth, and have uh the kids with them as well, the the the seal the wounds and so forth, and and uh subsequently called EMS to respond to take over the care for those individuals.

So the two minutes in my opinion is extremely important with and again we received the the uh sound thinking on the gunshot detection um alert our officers responded uh found a victim and rendered aid our officers every single one of our officers and division of police received first aid training advanced first aid training through EMS and so forth and have uh the kits with them as well the the the the seal the wounds and so forth and and uh subsequently called EMS to respond to take over the care for those individuals so I believe that without the the alerts there's a good possibility those individuals may have perished thank you I I think what I'll lift up from that answer is that there's not enough certainty to say that we've saved 50 lives from shot spotter um but there's not enough certainty to say that we haven't saved a life at some point through the chair is that accurate through the chair that that's accurate but again we did not receive a corresponding calls initially our officers responded based on the uh sound thinking alert they responded uh and were able to provide first aid to those individuals before uh EMS arrived uh to take over care and through the chair sorry um just I'm I'm sorry I just wanted to correct I just looked at the report um uh to the council person through the chair it was actually four minutes uh on average of four minutes not two minutes great so no right like note off the top of your head so I looked up in the report it's actually four minutes just to correct it to have better context for it through the chair thank you very much thank you very much and uh just in the spirit of time I'm I'm gonna move on to the next line of question I do really appreciate understanding it because I think this is a critical talking point and I want to make sure that we use the talking point about lives saved with precision in our language and I I do think it's um critical that we not overstate or understate the way that this technology is being used and I think CSU has um drawn I think a clear line here um in terms of the uh we had some initial reports from shot spotter in 2022 they came before council and offered a number of statistics um I had the uh sort of initial uh this this report from September 2022 um talking about uh this one identified seven lives saved at the time 415 um and IBN leads um shell casings collected uh through the chair to the CSU team did you guys evaluate um the accuracy of this report uh vis-a-vis the statistics that you had at any point during this process I'm not sure oh sorry excuse me to um to the council person through the chair I'm not sure that specific report we looked at we looked at a number of reports um we attempted to um starting at the beginning of our evaluation we attempted to replicate numbers from uh a report that was produced by Cleveland police based on the pilot uh data um I think it was a six month report um we but we were unable to be able to to make those data um direct to replicate those data because we we weren't sure of like the exact denominators that were used in some of the calculations and we were unable to get any confirmation on where that came from thank you I think as a follow-up I would love to make sure that you have a copy of this report and just have you review it and provide any high level thoughts about um sort of the accuracy of the this initial report from ShotSpotter in 2022 compared to the data that you put forward thank you um I next want to connect just another talking point is about the homicide clearance rate in the city um through the chair to the uh public safety team could you identify um the connection between shot spotter and the homicide clearance rates um and how many cases you are saying were um solved because of shot spotter specifically I don't have that specific information that you just referenced okay uh thank you I think a number uh uh through the chair to the CSU team did you get um any data about uh uh the homicide clearance rates uh that were improved because of shot spotters professors uh I will say that in some of the data that we saw from Soundthinking it references changes in homicides clearance rates and changes in homicide in in the areas where ShotSpotter has been deployed um but we would not say that that necessarily means that it's due to shot spotters okay thank you I I think that's a critical point too I'll be direct that the administration has used uh the current homicide clearance rate as a talking point about this technology and I just think we should be careful about making sure that we're not making again false promises to the community about the way that this technology is is being used by our team through the chair I I don't think through the chair council member I don't think that the administration is saying that the gunshot technology uh is the sole reason for the how homicide clearance rates there are different combinations um the various technologies that we have the hard work of our our detectives and the uh homicide units a combination of uh of I believe a lot of things being having the license plate readers the integration of the cameras and so forth to being able to uh identify suspects a relatively quick I believe all take uh come into play when we're talking about reduction in the homicide reduction homicides and also the uh homicide rates itself the clearance rate okay thank you I will uh make sure to forward the incidents that I've seen of the homicide clearance rate being used to justify the technology for you all to review um I next want to turn to uh the question and I apologize uh chairman I didn't start uh uh timer when I started how how much time do I have left I will tell you you have six point five oh look at that we're cruising okay um I uh have a quick kind of technical note for the administration um I went back because I remember the committee it was Deputy Commander Pillow came to present the license plate reader contract to the body um but I couldn't find the underlying legislation

Um I next want to turn to uh the question, and I apologize uh chairman.

I didn't start uh uh timer when I started.

How much time do I have left?

I will tell you you have 6.5.

Oh, look at that, we're cruising.

Okay.

Um I uh have a quick kind of technical note for the administration.

Um I went back because I remember the committee, it was Deputy Commander Pillow came to present the license plate reader contract to the body, um, but I couldn't find the underlying legislation, and I I was struggling to find the date.

I believe it was in 2023.

I would love to ask for your help if you could both provide the initial RFP that was used for the license plate reader uh contract with Flock uh as well as the date that it was presented to council.

That would be very helpful.

So the chair, the councilman, we'll get that information for you.

Thank you very much.

Um I last like to turn to the question of the uh RFP and uh bidding process for uh 1367, the Flock contract.

Um I want to uh pull up the uh Ohio or sorry, the uh Cleveland codified ordinances uh section 181.10, which deals with purchases exceeding 50,000 dollars, have to be authorized by ordinance.

Uh and as you read through it, you see it also uh requires bids.

Uh and so I'm asking through the chair, uh, why was this ordinance for a specific contract, not an RFP presented to council without an initial RFP process through the chair.

Through the chair to council member.

Um this is sole source, uh sole source, and that's how we're able that's how we were able to present this particular legislation.

Also um through the chair.

Um it's also on state term.

When things are on state term, you don't have to go through a bidding or RFP process because when it's on state term, that means the state has already bid the lowest and best amount for that particular contract.

Thank you.

So I want to uh clarify those are two separate reasons to avoid the RFP process.

And you have ShotSpotter here at the table uh claiming that they are able to provide the technology that the city is looking for uh through the chair.

Does that change your approach to this sole source?

Whoever could answer that or would answer?

Through through the chair to a council member.

Uh we'd not that was not a uh an effort to um to to bypass the process.

Uh that I want to make sure we're we're clear at that.

Again, as stated before, um we it's a sole source as well as state uh term as well.

Uh in that that we'll just have to leave it at that for this particular time.

Thank you.

And I hope you understand the hesitancy that I have given that a member of this body just departed to take a job at FLOC, that we now have a sole source contract without an RFP process that would have allowed some amount of time to work out questions about our comfortability with surveillance.

We've skipped that process, and now we're and we have an ordinance before us for a direct contract with Flock for this technology right after a member of this body left to go work at Flock.

I hope you understand my concern about that RFP or that with that uh contract being requested without an RFP process.

The council member you're talking about.

I have no knowledge of uh I I know that he's uh working for Flock now, but it has nothing to do, and I repeat absolutely nothing to do with the current uh legislation for Flock.

Then I think we got to do everything by the books.

Uh if if you are saying there's no connection, uh we need we need to make sure this is as transparent as possible because I I just think to the average uh member of the public, there is going to be some questions about why we would end up skipping an RFP uh immediately after uh uh a member of this body left to go work at Flock.

Thank you.

Um I want to make sure that um I end by thanking the uh everybody coming today uh to discuss this topic.

Again, I I opened with the ideology questions because I understand it is tense.

I understand that communities might differ, and I think it's incumbent on every single one of us as leaders of this city to decide our level of comfort, how we act as leaders and as representatives of our communities when it comes to these questions.

I I am always open to continuing to learn and and grow, but I will be upfront with everybody that I have a great discomfort with increasing surveillance.

Um with that, I do want to make sure that I end by confirming the same questions that I remember.

I asked to A.D.

Pillow when he was here talking about uh Flock initially, which is through the chair to the director.

Are we currently using any type of AI or facial recognition technology at the real-time crime sector?

Director.

Through the church or council member, we're not.

You are not.

Through the chair, that's correct, we are not.

Thank you.

And does the fusis integration program in any way use uh AI or any type of uh assisted technology to integrate various sources of information?

Director.

Through the chair, uh not to my knowledge.

Thank you.

And through the chair to the director, do you are you aware of any instances where the federal government in the last three years has requested access to our license plate reader system, real-time crime center uh cameras or other materials to the chair customer have no knowledge of any uh the uh federal government asking for that particular information?

Thank you very much.

Those are the same questions I asked A.D.

Pillow, and I thank you for answering them here.

And with that, Chairman, I yield.

Okay, you had 44 seconds left.

Okay.

Um let me see.

Are there any other questions at the committee?

I know councilman Harsh has a question, but it is I don't believe it's related to this, but I'm gonna go ahead and oh yes, councilwoman.

Thank you, sir.

Chair.

I know everyone asks some great questions, only have a few as usual.

Um just to say this um pertaining to uh shot spotter.

Um I can say this for the residents in War 4.

We had plenty of of um community meetings with the residence chair to the team.

Apologize.

We had plenty of res of community meetings with the residents in Ward 4 who particularly had their own questions, but turning to Shot Spotter.

So uh that engagement turned out to be a positive for the residents in Ward 4 who directly had their own questions to understanding of what Shot Spotter was all supposed to do, uh pertaining to um the quick actions of the police officers uh coming to the aid of someone shooting.

Uh and to that, I even had a lot of calls from the residents who referred to uh shot spotter, did the job correctly or didn't do it correctly of um you know of responding quickly, but I also myself called Fourth District to get data every time someone did call me to alert me that they did call in about a shooting in the area, and I did get the specifics of the time frame and what action was taken during that time.

It wasn't a whole lot of calls or call back, but I called uh enough just to relate that information to the resident who called me pertaining to the shooting in the areas that they felt uncomfortable or fear of uh you know of the activity that was happening in the community.

So just saying that to let you know that quite a few residents did go to the uh safety uh safety meeting that we had uh once a month for the fourth district, and fourth district covers ward one, two, six, four, and five, and part of twelve.

So and part of five.

And a lot of residents who came to those safety meetings did inquire and had questions about the productive uh shot spotter and why we uh um agreed to bring it into the um to the city and what effects you know that it had.

So some was uh still confused about uh uh how it served, and some did have some kind of uh understanding of what it supposed to have done, but uh there's nothing perfect.

Absolutely, there's nothing perfect.

So I'm just speaking on a community resident level of my experience that I experienced with the residents and the um in the ward that I uh governed to um to have that understanding and that connection because shot spotter did initiate it from the ward four under commend the cuts at that time and at that time, and we know it was a pilot program at that time too as well.

So for me, the statistics was never high to say how um how it actually uh uh uh prevented or uh assisted with the officers to get there in the three-minute time frame, but also um nevertheless, um uh if it didn't or didn't do a course, uh it uh prevailed in some type of way uh because it brought the residents into a meeting whereas they had the uh understanding and uh and had the questions on um on uh uh you know what incidents happened, you know, dealing with how it worked with gunshots.

So to just say the least, that's uh I don't have uh a lot to comment on because my colleagues did a great job.

But I do have one uh extra question chair to the director.

Uh even though uh my colleague um uh remact um uh my colleague uh councilwoman Mahler uh touched on um Navidi and I V-E-N technology Technology.

I just want to uh just um just touch B on did it track bullet casings that particular uh technology to the director through the chair who can comment member gray.

Um it does not track uh shell casings.

What it does is it has it gives our officers once again once we're alerted, the officers are alerted to respond to the area.

Part of the responsibility to our general police order, um the officers are to get out their car, um canvas the area, hopefully find c uh shell casings, the conselcations are then taken as evidence and putting into the NIBAN system.

And based on that, uh we're able to, or at least the officers are and detectives are able to follow up if they're NIBAN leads, which means that the casings were used in other areas as well, and that can follow up on um for gives the uh detectives the ability to follow up on the uh the cases.

Okay.

Okay, thank you for that answer.

And due to that second part, due to them following up on the cases chair to the team the casings.

Did the casings due to that?

Did uh uh was anything followed up on uh following the person fingerprints from the casing to find the perpetrator who did the shooting and shooting per se?

Who can answer that if you can?

Through the chair.

Um part of the collection is that when it goes through once uh an officer um collects casings and is it is analyzed by by our forensic teams.

They part of it is uh to look for uh fingerprints and so forth so they can enter their fingerprints into the system.

Um but when you're talking about uh uh incident where officers are responding for random shots fired, uh they come out, they look for shell casings and so forth.

You know, there's not necessarily a a uh crime associated with that, which means we don't have a suspect per se.

So um the officers will again collect that particular uh casings or casings, uh put that into the the evidence, uh, and then if there the casings are connected to other cases, um then the uh detectives will have the ability to follow up on those particular cases.

But we'll have the fingerprints that we can put into our uh into our system.

Okay, through the chair, I'm sorry.

Uh just to the councilwoman.

Fingerprints, it it's you really don't get a lot of fingerprints off of things in general.

My whole career, I think I had two cases where fingerprints were actually found.

One was because the person had to put a fingerprint stamp on the back of a check that he forged, and the other time happened to be on a really dusty car.

Um you're not with the circumstance, you're not gonna find a human fingerprint on a shell casing.

Very rarely.

Okay, thank you.

Yeah, professor.

Uh yes.

So uh there's a little bit of my expertise and maybe it's a little bit out of the scope of the evaluation, but um uh now the technology has advanced that you're correct that the fingerprints are not that great, but they do are able to get touch DNA from the shell casing.

So uh BCI, the Bureau of Criminal Investigations, as well as the state crime lab, or the city crime lab, um uh county, sorry, county crime lab will be able to in some cases get DNA off of uh a shell casing.

Um however, as uh as um Drummond mentioned, it won't be able to necessarily um put that into the federal DNA database because you don't have a suspect identified in that, but there is a possibility in some of those cases to put some of them and get DNA from them.

Can you talk about what you learned from the oh yeah, and and the prosecutor's office, uh we talked with folks from them.

They uh they do use often uh that evidence in the connection with a bunch of other evidence to put cases together that originated from shot spotter calls.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And I know this question was one more question.

I know this question was asked by many of the colleagues already.

Have you uh have um you know, from that analysis, have anybody has been arrested for you know from that analysis by us um funding shot spotter.

Okay, do you have any data on anybody?

You understand the question?

Anything any linkage that from the shot spotter detections that went off?

Was there were there arrests made?

Any time of the case.

Listen up, shots.

The short answer is yes.

Okay.

Based on their data that they both have.

Okay, they did.

Okay.

Councilwoman, your questions reminded me of a quick point if you would allow me one.

Yes, which goes.

Thank you very much.

You brought up the fourth district and Commander Cutz and with ShotSpotter here.

I was wondering if he was still employed with you.

He's never been employed with us, man.

Brandon Cutz.

Brandon Cuts.

Okay.

So I'm thinking.

All right, thank you very much.

Okay.

Okay.

So are there any other Okay?

Uh are you through?

Okay.

I have Councilman Harsh.

And is it pertaining to ShotSpotter?

Okay.

Yeah, okay.

I know.

At the rate we're going, we'll be there, okay?

Mr.

Chair, how much time are you giving folks?

I've got to be 15 minutes.

Got it.

You got it.

And Mr.

Chair, you start every safety committee off with this staff, but I missed it earlier.

How many full-time patrol officers are in the employment of the city?

2,000 151.

Great.

78 recruits, and we have lost 82 so far this year.

Thank you, sir.

So uh Mr.

Chair, I appreciate the indulgence.

I'm not on the safety committee.

I I try to premise that every time I come to visit you all to let people know I don't have a vote on this committee.

Um but I did knock on about 3,000 doors this summer, as many of my colleagues did and had over 1,500 conversations, and I can tell you that well over 75 percent of them were about safety and speed bumps.

And I never want to talk about speed bumps for the rest of my life.

Um, but it is the top issue of concern in the neighborhood when you go out there and listen to the people that live in your community.

Safety comes up more than any other issue.

So uh I'm very interested in this subject.

I think that this report contains a bit of a bombshell uh that we're not really getting to, which is that the city of Cleveland does not employ enough officers to even use this technology effectively.

It's the first number one finding of this report.

There are not enough Cleveland police officers to effectively use the information being given to them by this technology.

Um there's also a bit of an interesting stat in here that the City of Cleveland has had the largest decline in police employment between 2019 and 2024 of any city in America with less than 3,000 police officers, but more than 1,000.

So I looked it up.

There's only eight cities in America that have more than 3,000 officers.

For your information, they are New York, Chicago, LA, Houston, Philadelphia, DC, Las Vegas, and Dallas.

So with the exception of those eight cities, Cleveland has lost more police officers in the last five years than any other city in America.

And I can tell you that in 2015 we had about 1,600 officers on staff, and last year we now we have 1,100.

So we've lost almost 500, almost a third of the department in the last 10 years.

Go back.

What number did you what was your first uh in 2015 we had about sixteen hundred officers?

Okay, and in that was ten years ago.

And 2010.

And and now we have 1,100.

So we've lost roughly 450, roughly a third in 2001.

2000, 2000, and we had 1,936.

That's that's that sounds like my understanding of it as well.

Um however, uh, having lost the most officers in the country, uh being down almost a third, it's no wonder why so many Cleveland residents are shocked at the lack of traffic enforcement that takes place in our city, and the no no wonder that I had to have a thousand conversations about speed bumps because there seems to be no other way to slow anyone down because nobody gets ticketed anymore.

In 2019, the year before COVID, according to the United States uh the Ohio Supreme Court, the City of Cleveland issued over 120,000 traffic citations in the City of Cleveland.

That's 2019, the year before COVID, 120,000.

Last year we issued, I think less than 20,000.

That's a hundred thousand fewer traffic citations in the City of Cleveland over the course of six years.

And no wonder that so many people are fed up with watching people run stop signs blow through red lights and the basic lack of enforcement.

We don't have enough officers on the street to do this basic routine service.

And the report points out that we have so few officers that we can't even effectively utilize the technology at our disposal.

This all matters because on page 20 of this report, the good folks at CSU also pointed out that the number one interest among residents when asked is to see more police officers.

Oh Lord, look, there's almost a it's almost like a theme, right?

People want to see more police officers, and this is the number one response I get in the community when I ask people what they would like to see done about the lack of traffic enforcement, is that they say they would like to see some more police officers in the neighborhood.

Sit up there.

I stood out at the corner of 58th in Woburn or Gifford and watched with a lady as every single motorist blew through a stop sign.

Every single one.

We counted a dozen, maybe 15 before we stop.

Because her point was taken.

You will see no one stop at this stop sign.

And the police could just sit there all day long, right?

But all this is relevant because it doesn't matter what tools we have if we don't have the uh department to actually use those tools.

And right now it's very clear and obvious that the Cleveland police department is not properly staffed in order to use the tools that we have or provide the services that residents want.

Um I also want to point out a few series of of facts in here that that strung together just sort of leave us wondering if shot spotter is worth it at all.

First off, it says there's a 90% accuracy rate, but the officers don't always report errors.

Um 90% accuracy meaning that 90% of the time there was actually a shot fire that caused people to go out there, but we don't know fully because officers don't always report errors.

There were 126 arrests based on which is a 10 percent number, so I'm I assuming over 1200 detections, but that means that officers went out on over 1,000 calls that did not result in an arrest, and we know that these were all priority one, which led this report to tell us that there's a decrease in response time to non-priority one calls, which are calls about burglary, breaking and entering, some domestic violence, some very serious crimes, that the response time has gone down because officers are out uh chasing uh shot spotter detections that largely do not result in arrests or even uh preventative crimes.

We know that they prevent zero crimes.

These are all post-event responses, right?

These are all uh after after the event has already happened.

So we have to ask ourselves with a severely depleted the police department with very little time available for actual patrolling.

Do we want to send officers out on calls, knowing that 90 percent of those calls do not result in arrests when we're actually causing property crimes to uh increase uh the delay in response to those and other uh safety issues in the in in the in the city.

Um this all went into the uh the volume in the response.

Okay.

So there seems to be a much bigger problem facing safety in the city of Cleveland than just whether or not the officers have the proper technology to respond to it.

Um I think based on the math in here, if we were to do the whole city, it would be 5.6 million a year based on 70,000 per square mile in the city having roughly 80 square miles.

Um I think it would be 5.6 million right now.

Uh we have about I think 12 square miles.

Um, but I would point out that police officers are about 135,000 a year.

If we were to fully staff up, it would cost the city maybe another 34 million dollars a year.

If those officers were to issue tickets, we could raise another 10 million dollars a year back in traffic tickets, which would get us cost down to 23 million dollars a year, which would probably do a lot more preventative effort in the city of Cleveland than paying for shot spotter.

Um lastly, I just want to end with this and I'll give my time back.

Um we cannot put a dollar sign on a life saved.

It is impossible.

It is a false uh demand for us to try to say how much does it cost to save one life.

We can never quantify the amount of lives saved by a properly staffed police department either.

We don't know how many lives or property crimes could have been prevented if we had 250 more police officers patrolling our street every year.

We don't know.

We can't measure negatives, right?

So we also can't put a dollar amount on the life that we think might have been saved as a result of this detection and this detection alone.

There are too many factors that go into play.

What if this person had been hugged more?

You know, that you you never know what is going to prevent a tragedy from happening.

So I don't want us to get bogged down in that.

At the end of the day, Mr.

Chair, thank you for for holding this.

It's clear from this report that the Cleveland police department is woefully understaffed.

It's clear that the pol the people of Cleveland want to see that staffing return.

And I think it should be clear to all of us based on common sense that that's going to do a lot more to engender safety in the city than this technology, which is very questionable at best.

Thanks.

And uh, and I know there were no questions involved in there.

Thank you for sitting there in my little bit real well at time, by the way, too.

Thanks, uh, councilman.

I appreciate the comments, and uh we are certainly trying to um increase our ranks to the budgeted number, which as you know is 1350 right now.

That's a stay before it's 1151 officers, uh, sworn officers right now, 78 in the academy, which puts us over 1200 once they're on the street and uh budgeted.

Thank you again to council for uh for budgeting 180 recruits.

Um our goal is to uh get those 180 recruits get to our numbers, and once we get to the 1350 to come back to to council and ask for additional officers and so forth.

We have a class that will be graduating uh December 19th of this year, class starting a few days after that.

Another hiring event in January to continue to hire individuals.

Qualified individuals become law enforcement officers here in the City of Clinton, so we can get to the 1350 and uh evaluate our needs at that particular time.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Well, Chairman.

You know what?

Um Councilman Harsh only pinpointed and highlighted uh what some of us have been talking about a long time here, and we have to be mindful of the fact that to a great extent this administration inherited some very bad decisions that were made um prior to 2020 and prior to the um the brutal killing of um George Floyd.

Um I could produce one letter after another where I advised the council leadership at that time, the need to press the issue to put more money into hiring to the previous administration.

I raised it during the budgetary process that the baby boomers were retiring, and how come no one can see that or will acknowledge that?

We had a chief sit right at this table, a former chief, tell me and tell us that he couldn't tell us how many people were eligible to retire based on age and years of service.

He actually set it at the table.

And so the situation that we are in today uh was a result of terrible decisions that were made in the past, and not that long ago, quite frankly, where we could have ramped up the division of police we could have hired, and we and they didn't.

Um that's one of the reasons that the director knows that I have been constantly begging for the OHP to come into Cleveland, because just last week or the week before, they demonstrated once again by the number of guns they took off the street, the number of people they arrested, um, et cetera, et cetera, that everything starts with traffic enforcement.

That's where policing starts is with traffic enforcement.

And every old-time retired copper tells me, Councilman, you want to police the city, you start with traffic enforcement.

And Councilman Harsh just reinforced that.

So we have our challenges going forward.

But the situations we're dealing with today were man-made.

I can tell you that being here, I can tell you firsthand, and it just shocked me how people in leadership, both in the leadership of council at the time, and in um the city administration, previous city administration failed to understand um what we were being confronted with.

And then let's be blunt about it.

For two and a half years under this present administration, you had a safety director for some reason, who was only hiring seven, nine, ten, eleven people in the division of police, which none of us could figure that one out.

And you've you have demonstrated, I keep asking myself, how could you go from nine and ten, eleven to how many you have in this class now?

I believe it's over forty.

Okay.

I I I could not figure that out for the life of me.

What the heck was going on here?

Um, but council does not hire, we do not fire.

41 to be exactly.

I'm sorry, 41 to be exempt.

Okay.

We council does not hire, we do not fire, we do not deploy, we do not administer.

That's the charter of the City of Cleveland.

We have given this administration everything they have asked for, and then some.

So I just want to say this.

I want to thank again the two professors that are here.

I would hope that you would take back the CSU.

I don't know.

You would take back the CSU.

Um, where other departments could help us, whether it be building we have issues with building and housing, we have issues with health.

Maybe provide to us, hey, uh these are some other departments uh that could be of worthy assistance to this council and the administration in providing, you know, third-party review or oversight.

We need we need outside help.

We have a very talented staff here within the council, but not everyone has the expertise in every division, every department.

And again, I want to thank the Department of Crime Criminology and Sociology for the help.

The Levin College of Public Affairs and Education at CSU for your um expert information that you provided to us.

You have been very helpful to say the least.

And Councilman Slave, you have the final word or something.

I just uh two two quick things.

That the members of this community do not view increasing funding towards violence prevention and increasing the staffing of the division of police police as uh as a uh uh uh binary choice, that they are not mutually exclusive.

That is the majority opinion.

Thank you for us having the ability to uh prove that through uh unbiased third party analysis, and anybody who's suggesting otherwise, I would say is pushing a narrative instead of understanding what the temperature of the community is.

I agree with you I also want to say going back in time when there was the class that only had about nine people in there.

My analysis was that the hiring pool, the initial hiring poll included 217 black residents of the city of Cleveland, none of whom were included in that class of nine, understanding not just that we're hiring more police officers, but that we are providing employment opportunities to residents of the city of Cleveland maintains a uh a passion point of mine, and to that end, uh I would ask the director if either he or in partnership with civil service or HR, whomever, could be able to for this graduating class that uh we are anticipating to graduate, uh providing a breakdown uh by their self-declared gender, race or ethnic background, as well as their city of residence.

Okay.

And if there's no further questions, I want to thank again the professors.

I'm gonna thank the administration, I think ShotSpotter here.

But I will say this in closing.

Um there is concern within the body uh as we move forward, and I can tell you without any fair contradiction uh as to why the administration did not go out for an RFP from this as it retains to gunshot detection, um additional technology.

Um that's of great concern to us.

I gotta tell you that right now.

So we're we're gonna do our deep dive into the legislation that the admin that you have proposed to us as it pertains to flock.

Um we're gonna do some real deep dive in on that.

And um we want to make the right decisions, and we want to make sure that there's no question as to the action that we're taking as it pertains to there's no conflict of interest with this body, with any people who once served in this body.

Um we want to make sure we're making the right decisions because I want to report to what I said just a little while ago.

We utilized ARPA funds for this.

Those ARPA funds are gone.

They are gone.

So the decisions we make impact the general fund of the City of Cleveland.

And we at this point uh I I every morning I fear to turn on the TV to find out what they're cutting next in Washington or in Columbus, how it impacts our bottom line.

Uh plus, you know, um we're losing the jail.

County County Jails moving out to Garfield Heights, that's 400 plus jobs, I've been told.

Um issue with the Cleveland Browns relocating, another impact on the local, especially the downtown economy.

So this body has great decisions going into the upcoming budget round of the mayor's estimate that we'll be coming to us shortly.

So um to my colleagues, we got a lot of work to do.

We've got to pull up our sleeves, but I'm confident that this body will rise and raise to the occasion to do what is right and that we will have a balanced budget and that we will focus on the greatest needs in our city.

Um so again, director um administration, thank you.

Shot spotter, thank you, professors.

Get us get us some additional uh departments and divisions that might be able to help us.

Thank you very much.

Committee stands adjourned and now we got uh flag or uh they started I thought I was gonna start at the snap, but they started it started with the ball to spot it.

Yep, and the ball was spotted.

So now we're going to overtime, and the most important thing right now, I think for the Ohio Ducks is mentals.

I'm Richard Stewart, host of Cleveland Health on TV twenty.