Um today is um Monday February second.

I'm calling the municipal service and properties uh committee to order.

Um just to give everybody uh uh snapshot about how we are work to the house hearing.

Um, just to give everybody a snapshot about how we're gonna work today's hearing, we're gonna do the legislation first, and then we're gonna call up um a couple city departments and we do some miscellaneous so we can question about uh some of the events that's happened over the last 30 days or so.

Uh first I'd like to start off by calling our guests to the table from the flats.

Um what what number is this director 1541?

Um let me start off by uh introducing uh all of the members.

This is our first uh MSP meeting of the year.

Um my name is uh Kevin Bishop, I'm the chairman, I'm ward two, I'm Union Miles and Slavica Village.

We go right to right to the and Chris Harsh, I'll be uh the vice chair here, and I represent Ward 4.

It's the uh the new ward for it's the same old Brooklyn.

Hi, Councilwoman uh Gray from uh Ward 3.

I represent Shaker, Buckeye Woodland, Mount Pleasant, and Salvat Village.

Councilwoman Nikki Hudson, I'm the new Ward 11.

Uh tiny bit of Edgewater and then Cadell, Stockyards, um West Bull West Boulevard, uh Old Brooklyn, um, and the Brookside neighborhood.

Thank you.

Brian Casey, Ward 13.

Oh, Councilman Richard Starr, War 5 represents it in neighborhoods of Midtown Central, Kansas, on parts of Norbro, Industrial Valley, and downtown.

All right, okay.

Can you make an introduction?

Um, Mr.

Chairman, so I'll start out on this end.

Director uh DeRosa from the um Mayor's Office of Capital Projects.

Excuse me, I'm the Commissioner of Real Estate in the Mayor's Office of Capital Projects.

Good morning.

Jim Havley, Executive Director of Flats Ford.

Cam Drew Ferguson, CEO of Argonaut, uh, operator of the Davis Aerospace and Maritime High School.

All right, thank you very much.

Um here to hear ordinance number 1541 2025 by Council Members Bishop Ann Griffin.

This is a departmental request, an emergency ordinance authorizing director of capital projects to enter into an amendment to lease agreement number CT 0103 NF 2015-052 with flats east management LLC that designee for flats east development LLC to authorize charging boat docking reservation fees.

All right, director, you want to kick us off.

Uh yes, sir, thank you.

Uh this is an ordinance that relates to a lease that the city entered into in September of 2014 related to the Flats East Bank.

And um I'm going to hand it over to Commissioner De Janeiro, who's going to get into the details of the amendment that we're seeking to this lease.

Thank you, Director.

Um so under the lease, uh Flats East Development LLC, uh, they they actually built the roadways, boardwalks, and park space within the Flats East Development, and under the lease are required to keep these areas free and open to the public.

So fast forward to last year, um, flats applied to the U.S.

Coast Guard for a waiver, which would allow boat docking in an area um of on the dock space adjacent to the development that's considered a safety zone, which means docking is not permitted because it's tight in there when the commercial um freighter and um deep breath vessels come through.

So um the Coast Guard is going to allow a waiver um and uh in connection with that, flats has set up a this docking program that would allow for management of the stock space um through the program which is run by students from Argonaut, students and um alumni from um Davis Aviation High School.

Um the um you know it would be managed so that the voters would make a reservation, they sign a waiver stating that if a commercial vessel comes through, they're given through a web-based program, they're given an hour's notice.

They're to report back to their boat and move it out of the way, and if they're not able to come back, the students would actually temporarily relocate their um their recreational um boat.

Um's has requested an amendment to our lease so that they can charge for this docking space that would help to cover the expenses of the program.

And um it, you know, if you have any additional questions about the program, Jim Haviland from Flats Forward or Drew from the Arkana can answer your questions.

Thank you.

Okay, Commissioner, um what's the term of the lease that we originally sign?

Um it is I believe it's 99 years, yes.

99 years?

Yes.

Okay.

And we are 10 years, well, 10 years in a 99-year lease?

Correct.

It was signed October 1st, 2015.

And the reason why we have to do this is because they want to charge fees.

That's right.

And now who gets the fees that they charge?

Where do those fees go?

Um I will let uh Drew and Jimmy answer that question in greater detail, but my understanding is that the fees go into the um to cover the expenses of dock uh the docking program.

Yeah.

Thank you, Commissioner.

Mr.

Chair, to the committee.

Uh first of all, Flats Ford, this is the first time I've been here under Flats Ford.

I've been here over the years before.

So it's a privilege to be here.

Flats Ford is a nonprofit that represents all of the stakeholders from the Cleveland Cliffs, Cleveland Works Steel Mill to the Port of Cleveland.

And our board is made up of representatives from constituent groups, whether it's tourism, entertainment, maritime and industry, and residents within that service area.

Just to give you an idea, a little background of of who I am and what we do.

So right now, the Flats East Bank, majority of it you cannot dock there.

Um never been able to dock there, and it's illegal to do so and it's unsafe.

So what this program does in partnership with Argonaut, and I'll let uh Drew talk a little bit more about this the CMSD students and what they're learning on this important um initiative, is that we are working together to secure a waiver from the Coast Guard to open up the dock to allow boating to occur.

Um this has both a Cyoga River safety component, it has a economic development component, and it has a really educational innovation component as well, which Drew will talk about.

Um the Coast Guard will not allow docking there unless it has a managed program.

Um and what Argonaut does is provide a program that is in place that the Coast Guard will accept to allow us then to open up the dock, which is important for boat tourism, um, as I mentioned before, safety as well.

So to your question, Mr.

Chair, the the proceeds will be collected by Flats Ford and be used as a nonprofit and will be used to do part our with our partner, okay, to fund the program and all the program needs, including life safety, dock man, you know, dock um amenities, things like that.

And of course, the most important is the students and the management.

Um so that's what that's the way that the program would work.

Now, I got a question just for logistics.

Is this Flats East Bank or Flats West Bank?

Or both?

Mr.

Chair would be Flats East Bank.

Okay, so Flats West Bank is managed by some some totally different.

All right.

And you guys are in charge of kind of taking care of the dock and um renovating the dock and keeping in good condition.

Right.

Okay.

All right, I'm gonna open it up to um questions from my colleagues.

Uh Councilman Brian, I mean Councilman Chris Harsh.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Um, so I'm looking at a map of the river and the east bank.

Can you tell me exactly where this dock is?

Where should I look on the map?

What am I looking for?

I'll start.

Drew, you're you're the expert as well.

You're on the water all the time.

But it basically is from the Norfolk Southern Bridge, south all the way down to the lake house.

So it's the boardwalk that is uh in front of the apartments and then in front of Alleycat as well and the lake house.

So it is that is the area.

Approximately 900 linear feet of dockage, of which 600 is restricted.

Okay.

Uh thank you.

Uh through the chair, I see that there is uh a boat docked outside of the collision bend brewing.

Um, and I recall from my taxicab days that there was a water taxi that would run back and forth right there.

So there is some docking on the east bank.

Who controls that through the chair?

Um Mr.

Chair, uh to the council member.

Um the right now collision band brewing company is controlled.

They own the building.

Um it with a partnership, so that is real estate that they will control.

It's not associated with this particular request for the amendment and the Coast Guard waiver.

And so, Mr.

Chair, to your point, the West Bank, the area is mostly Jacobs Entertainment, and that would include shooters and of course the Nautica complex as well.

And so through the chair, the private property owners control those docks that is along the side of the river.

Yes.

Okay.

And so through the chair, though, the legislation here is only for flats forward to control the docking from the Norfolk Southern Bridge South South to roughly collision, well, roughly, I don't know, uh the lake house, um just that stretch.

And through the chair, how many boats do you expect we'll be able to dock there?

We are looking at um three, I think 25 to 30, depending on this, you know, you we're it's not predictable what the size boat would be any given time.

But if we open this up, we would be able to uh provide for that number.

Drew, do you you think that's accurate?

Yeah, I mean, for the 900 linear feet, you're looking at uh, and that's the the total length of it, you're looking at probably about 25 to 30 total vessels.

Okay.

And uh through the chair, I'm a little bit ignorant on this subject, but um in parking, we have parallel parking and we have head end parking.

I suppose boat docking is always parallel through the chair, is that correct?

Through the chair?

That is correct.

Boats will not be pissing out, they will always be up against the.

And the one the one uh issue that that does come up and has come up is uh what you won't see in a parking lot is what they call rafting, where you have a vessel that is to the dock, and then you have their friends rafting out.

Um I believe there are some ordinances that control that.

Um, but uh the main idea right now is is by having an active presence and an active management of the docks.

Uh, we can only um promote you know the uh a positive experience, but we also have people there to enforce the rules that are in place to uh maintain both the recreational and commercial needs of the river.

Okay, so through the chair, then will rafting be allowed.

Through the chairman of the councilman, no rafting is not permitted.

Okay, great.

Um one last set of questions, Mr.

Chair.

Um I'm curious what the dock fees will be.

Um, how much will they be for Davis uh uh maritime uh school?

Uh and I do know the wonderful program that they run there, and I know that some students have gotten incredible jobs graduating from high school from Davis because of their uh aquatic skills for lack of a better term.

Um very supportive of that, and I was very disappointed when they cut hours at that school um and reduced those students' educational opportunities.

But I'm glad to see that we still have the connection to the to the river.

Um so what will the uh cost for Davis uh be?

What will the cost for commercial be?

And what will the cost for private operators be?

Through the chair to whoever knows those.

Let me let me start with that, uh, Mr.

Vice Chair.

The the dollar amount that we're charging is going to be really subject to the cost of running this program because without the program there will be no waiver and there will be no legal docking.

So we are still trying to refine that um using best practices not only locally but around the country.

So we do need to look at that.

But ultimately, um flats for being a nonprofit, the number one goal is to cover the expenses for the Argonaut program.

So I'm gonna turn it over to Drew to give you the information on what has to be provided for the dock management program in order for the Coast Guard to accept um the waiver.

So Drew, you want to through the chair to the councilman?

Um I'll give a real brief background on this.

So Argonaut is partnered with the CMSD in the operation development of the Davis Aerospace Maritime High School.

Um we are out there every day uh looking for opportunities for our students to engage and identifying and developing solutions to the problems that we see here in and on the river.

Uh examples of Davis-led projects uh through Argonaut are the full implementation of the safety ring stations that you see around Voinovich Park just north of here.

Uh those have been utilized to save five or six drowning victims.

Um our students operate the Port of Cleveland vessels, Flotsman jets.

And so when you see these two little barges out in the lake, out in the river, um pushing up and down, those are students from Davis Aerospace and Maritime High School, both active students as well as graduates uh act uh operating those vessels.

Uh and the last one is is the marine safety vessel.

Um we do operate a marine safety vessel that operates in the river under the port of Cleveland, um, and that is escorting all the large ships safely up and down the river, as well as responding to emergencies.

So this is about our students um looking for challenges that are in the river, identifying solutions, and then hopefully executing.

So when it comes down to the cost, we're looking at a wages.

I call it the McDonald's sniff test.

Um when we get our students into any type of um work program or a job that that is in line with what their uh career aspiration is or what their course of study is.

Uh it's gotta be at least, you know, McDonald's prevailing wages.

Um we don't have our kids working for free, we don't have them working minimum wage, so this is a little more expensive.

Uh when it comes to the management of the school, we utilize our our graduates.

Uh there's a lot of competition for scholarships.

So when we um employ one of our graduates who's in college, uh, we will pay them uh about $25 an hour, which is a significant amount, but it is for their college or our career program.

So when it comes down to it, we've looked at you know, pricing based on foot or pricing based on sheer size.

Um and we we believe that you know last year the uh the media got a little ahead of the program and put out a number that that gave us a good sampling of what wasn't acceptable.

Um but we think that um depending on uh whether or not we can get the full utilization of the dock, that um we can keep the costs below what you'd see in other major cities comparable to what's what's acceptable here.

Uh and that should not only cover the cost of our kids but the management of the dock.

Um that dock is lacking safety equipment right now.

Uh it is lacking uh general day-to-day upkeep, and so we we think that um a price that comes to much less than a dollar a foot per vessel uh will allow us to operate this program throughout the summer.

Okay.

Well, so I have a very high opinion of Davis Maritime School and the work that you do, and I I thank you for partnering with those students, and I know it's invaluable experience.

Um, but I do just want an answer to the question.

So, through the chair, how much is docking going to cost?

I I'm not a boat guy, I don't know anything about this world.

I what is docking going to cost?

Yeah, we're looking right now.

What we're looking at as far as the alternate is probably a direction we're gonna go.

So we say less than uh what we were looking at, less than 30.

So less than 30 feet would be $15 an hour.

$15 an hour.

Um, which is very comparable to the parking down there.

It would be a cheaper way, I think, to get down to the flats and park on the east bank.

And then above 30 feet, uh we did 30 to 55 would be 25 an hour, which is again coming closer to 50 to 75 cents per foot.

And then anything over 55 feet, those are large yachts, they're gonna pay uh 50 cents a foot.

50 dollars.

Or was it 50?

Yeah, 50 dollars.

Sorry, 50 dollars flat.

Okay.

Uh I mean, I assume that if you have a boat, you also have 15 bucks for parking your boat.

Um people with boats tend to have a excess income.

Um through the chair to my colleagues, I'm just bringing this up because the legislation doesn't actually put any caps.

Um the legislation just gives them the authority to charge um carte blanche, and uh it's 89 years left on the lease.

So essentially, if passed as written, we would be giving them 89 years to charge whatever they decide they want to charge at any point in the future as well.

So I'd like to put that out there as something for my colleagues to consider.

But um thank you.

Uh I understand a little bit better now.

I uh yield my time.

All right, thank you, Councilman Harsh.

Uh you bring up some great questions.

Uh next, I'm gonna go to uh Councilman Brian Casey.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Uh, just to to reiterate what councilman uh Harsh was talking about.

Um I understand you gave us the fee number, but how much are you looking to raise in this program and how much does this program cost to run per year?

Yeah.

I'm gonna uh excuse me, Mr.

through the the chair um to Councilman Casey.

I'm gonna let Drew take a look at the 2026 numbers for the students and for the dock managers.

Um I'm gonna throw out a number that's not accurate for this year.

So your estimate.

I want to say last year it was right around 100,000.

Um that is you know that there's a lot of infrastructure costs.

Uh obviously last year we we've we've trialed this twice.

We trialed it two years ago um just to pilot and get the Coast Guard's approval.

Um and and our our costs last year and the year before we're on track with about a hundred thousand dollar a year in expenses for the program.

And then Mr.

Chairman, to the to our guests, how much do you expect to raise through the docking fees?

Through the chair councilman, we that is something that we do not know yet.

Um obviously it's gonna take a lot of marketing, a lot of promotion.

Um, and we are we're hoping that voters will decide to, or they have a convenient, safe and organized um way to dock, we'll make that trip under Norfolk Southern Bridge and utilize the the boardwalk.

Um it is truly to tell just because there hasn't been legal docking there since it was built.

Well, Mr.

Chairman, to our guests, you've at least done your homework and you've done a study about how many boats you're gonna need to get docked, how much that's gonna raise.

We know that it's gonna cost 100,000 to run the program.

You've at least done your homework to know what you would plan on raising, correct?

Correct.

And what's that needed to be?

Councilman, that we will be able to raise at least enough money to cover the program.

Uh the students, any safety equipment needs, which is as um Mr.

Ferguson mentioned, is a hundred thousand dollars for the season, which starts really um from uh Memorial Day through Labor Day is when the program would run.

Well, and and Mr.

Chairman, just like Councilman Harsh, I I have uh uh concerns leaving the legislation open-ended as well.

Um because you say your most expensive docking fee is gonna be fifty dollars, but how do we know because you haven't done the necessary homework to know how many boats you're gonna expect or how many you can expect that you're gonna come back without us having a number marked in here that you could turn around and say, okay, we're gonna start charging $300 to dock here.

So we we don't know that, right?

And I don't think you know that at this point either.

Um I I do have I do have an issue with that, and we should look at an amendment there.

Um and why, Mr.

Chairman, to whomever can answer this.

Why was this area deemed a restricted safety zone?

Um, and are we comfortable with releasing a restricted safety zone?

Do you have any information from who gave you permission?

The the U.S.

Coast Guard.

The Coast Guard.

Do you do you have a letter from the Coast Guard?

Do you have information from the Coast Guard saying if this is done a certain way that we would that wouldn't be as a safety zone anymore?

Through the chair to the councilman Casey.

Um the safety zone is established uh based upon distance from the wall to the navigation area.

Um it is technically um active when a ship is coming through.

There is not a hazard present when there isn't a 600-foot boat going by.

Um so when a ship is coming in, that area does have to be cleared.

There is no way of um uh short of removing commercial traffic on the river.

There isn't a way to to alter the dock in order to change the the size of that safety zone.

Um what we've proposed is a is an active management of it because there's only three or four vessels going up and down that river a day.

Um, because they might be going up one section versus the other, it's it's a very dynamic environment.

Um so you know, we we've explored this.

This has been vetted with the Coast Guard.

That the only hold up to last year's issuance of the waiver was just making sure that the city was on board.

So um we are going through this.

Uh and to answer your question, I mean it's one of those things that it we're basing what the income level is on the number of traffic we've seen in the area.

Uh a well-managed area could certainly grow, and I I agree with you, and I I can tell you that as we've worked with the Coast Guard and as we've worked with the Port of Cleveland, um, we've done one in two-year pilot studies, and so uh potentially operating this as a a one or two-year pilot and then coming back and and maybe developing a better finance model would work.

But I I think that we have to try all these things and then adjust.

All right, and then uh Mr.

Chairman, to to director or whomever, CMSD schools are on the chopping block, right?

Is this school one of the where is the school ran out of?

Uh, because I don't know about the school.

So the school is not on the chopping block.

Uh we did uh through the Billy Brighter Futures plan, the district has combined Davis Aerospace and Maritime High School with the School for Digital Arts.

Argonaut was formed in 2010 to design a school.

It took us seven years to design it and open it.

We exist solely to protect the school.

Davis Aerospace Maritime High School and our programmings will be not be going anywhere.

Uh we are working with the Clayton Metch Mountain School District.

We are working with multiple other partners to identify ways forward.

Um, but I I I stand here before we tell you there's Davis Aerospace Maritime High School's not going anywhere.

All right, and then my my last question, Mr.

Chairman, to our presenters is um is this gonna be 24 hours or the restricted hours on the docking.

So there's two models here.

This will not be 24 hours.

Um this will be uh managed uh uh we can do five days a week, uh but typically the traffic does not require it.

I'm should say Monday through Thursday, non-holiday traffic will typically exist inside of the non-waivered area.

So it's an area that's clear.

Whether or not we charge during those hours is is up to how the how the legislation is written.

This is mostly aimed at year Friday, Saturdays, Sundays, and holiday traffic.

So that's when we we need additional space to accommodate more boats at those busier times, putting the infrastructure to allow us to open up those areas when there's more demand.

Okay, so at this point, Mr.

Chairman, we don't know the hours of parking or docking.

Mr.

Chair, uh to Councilman Casey, we do have it broken out.

Um we do have limitations on when we're gonna have the students on working um on the docks.

Um it does end.

Um do we have them through to 2 30 at night on the on weekends, Drew?

As Drew answers that question, but there are times when this is not this program is not in place and the students and and the managers go home.

Uh docking in the safety zone will revert to being prohibited.

So that's going to be the key, is that you need to have the students um so we're not gonna have students there at 2 30 in the morning or two o'clock in the morning, are we?

No, we're not.

And then that's why that's why we're asking, right?

And then my last question to the to the director, uh, Mr.

Chairman to the director is does the city have any responsibility if we do this if there's an accident?

If a freighter can't get down or a freighter takes out a docked boat, are we liable at all?

Uh through the chairman of the councilman um law department has looked at this and we're able to do this without taking on liability.

I will say that the that the flat seas bank has property insurance.

I know that's different than what you're asking, but property insurance is already the responsibility of Flat Steast Bank and uh and they have insurance in place to handle crashes and and and things like that.

Is the flats does the flat seas bank insurance cover in the river?

Yes, in the river.

There was recently last year there was a freighter that hit hit the boardwalk, and that's uh uh uh a claim that falls under their insurance, for example.

All right.

All right, thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

All right, thank you, Councilman Casey.

Um next I'm gonna go to Councilwoman Nikki Hudson.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Um through the chair, just to clarify a point that Councilman Casey raised, uh does the U.S.

Coast Guard support this this waiver through the chair to the councilwoman, they have expressed support for this, subject to the passage of this legislation, which then would demonstrate that there is a secure funding source, um, something we did not have before.

And that's was part of the unique approach was to have this be funded, not through the city, not through other sources that are not that are finite and not reliable, but users.

Um so the Coast Guard is waiting for the passage of this legislation authorization, and then a resubmital of the waiver, and we have a high degree of confidence that they will grant this.

They have done this before in 2019 when we had a program in place, but it was not funded and not sustainable, and it ended.

So, to the credit and understanding of the U.S.

Coast Guard Marine Safety Unit Cleveland, they said unless you have the funding, you can prove that we will be able to maintain the proper um you know uh dock management program.

Um we will we will support this.

And we do have direct conversations with the Coast Guard on a regular basis.

Thank you.

Um through the chair to our guests.

Are there exceptions like no recreational docking under certain high current events or other times when uh navigational risks are high?

Through the chair to the councilwoman, there are no restrictions right now for the events um or um high peak times.

I mean, part of the goal is to have people be able to come down here and take advantage of the amenities and entertainment in this premier district.

Um there is then of course the pro you know the the fact that you can't dock there when a freighter is coming through.

And that's why this program is set up to notify the boaters that they have the responsibility to come and meet and move their boats.

Or we also have the opportunity through a waiver that they sign before they dock, that they um will permit their boat to be moved if, for example, someone comes in and they're not in close proximity to the boat at the time that somebody's coming through.

And that's the unique part of this that Drew and his team are in communication with the freighters and uh will know when they're coming through.

But if the weather conditions aren't right, then will you be closed?

I'll step in on that one.

Through the chairperson to the councilman.

Yes.

So uh part of this program, as I mentioned before, we're we're in a lot of different areas in the infrastructure.

So we do have a captain who's who's serving as a as a lead as an expert on the on the harbor.

Uh any time that we are managing the dock, we will have a marine safety vessel out.

Uh the captain of that vessel has the authority to shut the program down, shut the dock down uh as needed for safety.

So any time that uh we do have students deployed, any time that we are operating that, uh, there will be a Coast Guard licensed captain overseeing the whole program, overseeing that safety zone, and and again, general safety activities.

I mean, if we see something, we you know, we're always observing what's going on in the docks, whether it's the waivered area, the unwavered area, um, we're always watching for reckless activity for activity that there's a lot of alcohol down there and keeping an eye on things.

So uh there is constant oversight and you know, as as our insurance policies require, we have multiple layers of uh of um management of our students when they're engaged in any of these activities.

Thank you for that.

I have one final question.

Um has there been any comment from um share the river, Cleveland or any of the shipping companies well would go ahead and answer all that discussion.

Mr.

Chair, uh to the councilwoman, um we have been talking about this program uh with the Cyruga River Safety Task Force for a couple of years, and in 2019, when this was first proposed, um there was support for that as well.

And uh that continues today.

So, sure, the river is fully aware of this, as are all of the stakeholders, including Lake Curries Association and others that know we're trying to do this, and one of the key elements of the program is to bring that coordinated and organized docking that also leads to safety.

Um that's so that's an important element, and communication uh was a number one priority for us.

And that includes with other law enforcement agencies like the city of Cleese, uh, marine units, sheriffs, ODNR, others, they're very familiar with this, and even in the broader um uh piece uh with what is called the NEORAMs of Northeast Ohio Regional Maritime Safety, and that includes Homeland Security and other agencies, even beyond the ones that are local that have jurisdiction.

So this has been uh I think widely embraced in a very positive way.

Um that's why we're we're trying to advance, and that's why we're very appreciative of the fact that you're looking at this legislation and that the commissioner director and and Mr.

Julian um thank you as well, um, has been very helpful.

I hope that answers your question.

And just um the shipping companies have the shipping companies expressed any concerns.

So through the chair to the councilwoman.

Um yeah, so the Lake Carriers Association is the professional organization that represents the shippers on the Great Lakes.

Um Lake Carriers Association does hold position on my board, as does the Interlake Maritime Services uh Company out here in uh Middleburg Heights.

They actually requested this.

And the reason they requested this is because the dock is not actively managed.

Um any weekend you go down there, there are many boats that are illegally docked.

And so when a ship has to come through and there's lots of boats there, and there isn't enough enforcement action going on, and there isn't anybody telling people they can't dock there beyond the signs, um, it has been creating a real hazard.

And so when a ship has to alter their course to fit through that narrow area, um they are putting their vessels in areas that they're not supposed to be.

So it increases the likelihood of property damage as well as incident.

So not only are they advocating have they been supporting this, but they have been actively advocating for a positive um solution to the issues that we face on that part of the river.

Thank you.

If I could, I I would like to add that on our board, Cleveland Cliffs is on our board, as is Great Lakes Towing.

So this is big.

That's how this became a top priority for Flats Ford as well.

Um they're all supportive of this and have been.

So thank you for that.

All right, thank you, Councilwoman.

Uh, next I'm gonna go to uh councilwoman Double Gray.

Okay, thank you, Chair.

Appreciate it.

I have just a couple questions.

Um I'm not aware of this um your uh this process at all, the flat um flat's east development LLC.

I'm not aware of any of this, so it's all new to me as well.

So I want to know how long has this program existed for CMH for the C SMD students.

Through the country chairman to the councilwoman.

Um school was launched in 2017, uh, the first year we launched as our kids were out on the river.

of this um your uh this process at all the flats um flats east development LC I'm not aware of any of this so it's all new to me as well so I want to know how long has this program existed for CMH for uh C SMD students through the country Chairman to the councilwoman um school was launched in 2017 uh the first year we launched is our kids were out on the river this particular program was tested in 2019 as a pilot project uh we operated it for I think four weeks um it was initially supported by a lot of the private businesses down there but when it came to finally writing the checks they backed out um as Argonaut as a nonprofit as an organization that tries to develop innovative pathways and and and real world connections not only I don't like to say we're giving our kids opportunities we're presenting challenges to them and letting them find their own opportunities we can't take money intended for the school to fund private or city infrastructure programs.

What we do is we develop these programs and we try to secure the funding so that it serves the city as while allowing the students to utilize their skills to to fix the problem that we've identified.

So we did run this for a short time last year with some short term funding as well and it's you know the the the programs are very popular I will tell you that it fills up quickly you ask a high school kid if they want to hang out in the flats and watch boats all day for $15 an hour nobody runs the other way.

Okay sounds good I understand that so what are the ages chair to to the uh team um you know what are the ages that you know that the kids uh you know work with this program so it's it's about 15 to 25 uh most of our kids who are the the actual call the the dock crew uh dock crew are sophomores juniors seniors um and then the management crew so your your uh dock managers or the folks who are overseeing communications with the boat those are graduates so those are the students who are um postgraduation building sea time or careers and the importance of this is is sea time is is like flight time to a pilot for our professional mariners they need to log days at sea once you get to 360 days at sea over your four years at Davis um your your earning potential goes up about 25 thousand dollars a year um so we're always looking for ways innovative ways to get kids days at sea which they can long from age 16 up so that's uh that's the design behind it oh very interesting and another question is this like a graduate class and uh how many kids have um turned this into a career or per se a business chair to um the team i threw the chair to the chair uh to the councilman um a lot and and when we say you know what is the job there is no one job this is about exposure to an industry so we have um students that are working small vessels as captains so licensed licensed coast guard captains uh running the flotsman jets and boats to the parasailing that you see out there um we have students that are getting into marine maintenance for recreational boats small engine repair uh that's the more entrepreneurial side uh we have students are working out on the Great Lakes not right now but uh during the season they're full-time employees working out on the Great Lakes running these big freighters um and not to mention we have students who've gone into the Navy uh U.S.

Coast Guard uh total number you know I I think uh five to ten percent of the kids end up in in exactly the track they chose um I'd say another 15 to 20 percent end up somewhere in between and the rest it's just an experience that helps build them so you know when we have an aerospace and maritime school it's a it's a themed learning uh we're offering experiences for them to help find their way um every kid doesn't become a pilot in the aviation program every kid doesn't become a boat captain in the maritime side um but they're they're engaging in real meaningful things and and you know I even have kids that become lawyers which is terrifying to me but um but when they're engaged in in developing and being a part of the process of launching a program like this we'll talk about this legislation they see a lot of the processes that are behind the scenes we we're offering safety net programs for the port of Cleveland we're we're developing programs that have to go through the city have to go through the Coast Guard and so there really is just a million learning experiences in doing an operation like this.

Thank you thank you very interesting thank you thank you chair all right thank councilwoman gray I'm gonna go to uh councilman shaw all right good morning uh to the directors to through the chair I appreciate the information I was gonna ask some of the same questions that uh councilwoman gray asked uh I I wanted to just go back to the question of the students and what hours they'll be out there um could you just clarify a little bit more on what are the expected hours for the students um so first off a full day of C is seven hours so our shifts are built around a minimum of seven hours per student um I would say our busiest times on that stretch of the dock is about two or three p.m until about 10 p.m.

So our shifts are built around a minimum of seven hours per student.

Um I would say our busiest times on that stretch of the dock is about two or three p.m.

until about 10 p.m.

And so the way we we've run it operated it last year is starting at 10 a.m.

your your first manager will show up.

That manager will have uh one student with them and they'll start to they sweep the docks, they hose things down, they wipe down rails, um, they check all the safety equipment.

Um starting at about noon, you'll you'll probably have two more students that arrive.

And so we'll phase up to uh a full a full dock with 30 boats.

Um approximately 15 to 20 of which are in the safety zone that will have to be moved if a freighter comes through.

Um those those docks don't fill up until the afternoon.

So at a fully staffed dock, you'll probably say six dock crew and one or two managers.

So at the height of the day from that three to ten p.m.

range, um, you will have a fully staffed dock of seven to eight folks who are grabbing lines, moving boats, and then handling the what if scenarios.

Um they are all trained, they're they're all CPR first aid, AED trained.

Um many of them work on the safety boat as well, so they have that that emergency response experience.

Um so they're actually not only out there just catching lines and tying up boats, but they're the first ones to engage people if there's an emergency.

Uh they are the voice of of of direction and in emergencies.

Uh they're the first ones to throw a life ring in when someone falls in the water.

Um and and you know, they're also learning that you know they they have to recognize when someone's inebriated and going on to a boat and and they're trained in how to deal with boaters who are potentially um getting ready to depart the dock intoxicated.

So um it does take a minimum of two to three staffing, uh, and again, starting at nine or ten in the morning um and then going till about midnight.

Our managers will be the last one to leave at night.

They'll get the kids clear uh by midnight and then probably wrapped up and out of there by 1 a.m.

Um again the safety boat makes the call.

If we still have 30 boats in that safety zone, um we can flex our crew from the boat to the dock to make sure that we're able to sustain it.

Um but our our students do leave, or anyone under 18 is leaving by midnight.

Thank you.

So just to clear the latest that a student would could be expected to be out there is midnight.

Is that including on the weekends?

That is uh it all comes down to what the the state regulations are.

We I mean during a weekday, during school days, uh there's different age groups, so kids under 16 have one.

Our kids who are 16, 17 have a have a different um Friday, Saturday limitation.

So that's what guides how long they're out there.

Um again, I do have a lot of seniors that are already 18.

Um and and we have students that are 50 days short after graduation of of achieving that $80,000 a year starting career.

So they might stick around for that extra summer to get those 50 days at sea.

So um, you know, everything we do is is on the up and up.

These are our career programs.

Uh so we do work with jobs Ohio.

We work with a lot of folks that um help us.

We work with Magnet, we work with YOU, and so um all the programming and the times are set based on what's what's legal.

Thank you.

And um you with all due respect to the state.

I I don't have much faith that the folks down in Columbus care about our kids.

So I appreciate that others are looking out for them.

Um and then uh the they're being paid $15 an hour, is that correct through the chair?

Is there uh and going back to one of the questions that um Councilman Harsh asked, there is no cap right now on what can be charged under this current legislation.

I wanted to kind of understand to the director for Flats Forward on where the profits gonna be going.

Where is this gonna be directed?

Are we directing any of this money back to the students to make sure that they're getting a fully enriched program?

Where where do you anticipate the additional money to be going?

Uh Mr.

Chair, uh through Mr.

Chair to uh Councilman Shaw.

The money will be flowing uh from the reservations to Flats Ford.

It will the primary focus is the students and the managers and the life safety equipment and anything else it takes to run the organization.

There is marketing, there is accounting that we have to take a look at, but because we're two nonprofits, we're not motivated by anything other than covering our costs uh primarily and the students and Argonaut program is the is the number one piece.

I don't know if that answered your question fully or not.

Um go ahead.

I don't want to cut you off.

Yeah, so I want to make sure that um I caught the full Noah yeah, um through the chair.

I I I think I understand.

I I just wanted to know if there were set, you know, 15% will be going if there were any buckets or criteria set up like that that that has already been preset.

I think we're still we're yeah, we're still refining the budget with the number one focus, uh Mr.

Council uh Councilman to take a look at what really the the program is gonna be this year and then taking a look as the weather starts to break.

What are the what are the elements that we need to make sure that the dock is is um fully functioning?

We have the life safety equipment.

Um we do need to market this as well, so we're kind of putting that together as well.

What does that look like as far as um allotment of dollars for promotion of this?

A lot of education as well.

Um so I you know we need to take and refine that the full budget this year.

Thank you.

I give my time.

Thank you, Chair.

I thank you, Councilman.

Councilman.

Um is there any other question ordinance number uh four 1541?

Mr.

Chair, I'd like to make a motion to amend.

Okay.

Um there's amendment on the floor.

Go ahead, Councilman Harsh.

Mr.

Chair, um I I can't say enough good things about Davis Maritime Aviation High School.

I've met some of the graduates uh who are entering $80,000 a year jobs straight out of high school.

Uh these are young men from Glenville and from uh, you know, Clark Fulton and our neighborhoods that we want to see our children succeed, and they are doing it.

They are accomplishing it.

And I am I'm very proud of this program.

That said, uh Mr.

Chair, 89 years is a very long time.

Um 89 years is going to outlast everybody at this table in this room.

Um and so I think that uh the spirit of the amendment is to have this come back for review without handcuffing them on how much they can charge or anything like that, but to ask them to come back in a few years so that we can actually look at the budget and how it played out and how much revenue was raised and and where it was distributed.

I understand if there needs to be some marketing, that makes sense, right?

Um so Mr.

Chair, the spirit of the uh amendment is to have it come back to us in pr five years is what's uh floating around um to to review.

And I don't know if we would like to do that by adding a sentence into uh section one or adding a new section two.

Um Mr.

Chair, I would uh propose I think the easiest way to do this might be to uh add a new section, section two, which reads simply authorization for this ordinance shall be brought back to council for renewal and review within five years of the date of passage.

And then we would only have to rename section two to the section three and section three to section four.

Okay.

Um so to our our legal eagle at the other end.

Um I'll wait for it to be seconded and we can discuss.

Yep.

Okay.

All right, hold on just a minute, just a minute.

Everything goes through the chair.

Councilman Harsh has an amendment on the floor.

Um can I get a clarification from law department?

Is that is that amendment um sufficient?

I I need to understand what the amendment is doing as as the chair and council members know this is a contract that's already been executed.

And what we're doing here is amending the contract, which is legal instrument to allow flat seas to charge the public for docking their boats.

So is the amendment to restrict that that that permission to five years?

Because we're not able to go back to the contract without the other party assenting and and uh modify that whole term of 99 years.

So just to be clear, is this to limit that permission four or five years?

Can I can I clarify?

Through through the through the chair.

Yes, the intention is to limit it for five years so that it comes back for review so that we can reassess the program and how it's working within the next five years before determining whether or not to extend for at that point it would be 84 additional years.

The remainder of the lease.

Okay.

So the amendment will be to allow flat seas to charge the public for docking their boats with the lease premises for initial period of five years.

Right after which way with council's assent or permission, it will be for the remainder of the term.

No councilman.

It's just that this will go into the contract, so we'll need to be very specific.

Mr.

Chair, I'm sorry, who are you calling who are you calling to the Councilman Harsh?

Okay.

Um through the chair to the legal council.

Yes, if we want to add on to the sentence the first sentence that ends on line four of section one within the lease premise for a period of five years.

We could then add a second sentence that says authorization shall be renewed upon renewal by shall I'm sorry.

Authorization can be renewed by council after review within said period within five years.

I I would propose stating um further extensions will be subject to council's approval.

That would that would clean it up.

Mr.

Chair, further extensions subject to council approval is sufficient to the goal that I'm trying to accomplish.

Thank you.

Through the chair.

So did this um did the contract have extensions in it as it that is written presently?

Ms.

Mr.

Chairman, the contract does not have extensions.

But I I do want to reference it is advantageous for the city to remain under this lease for the term of it.

So as you're suggesting, any amendments would relate just to this uh uh docking fee provision, that would be uh the best thing for the city.

All right.

Um so uh I'm gonna go to Councilman uh Brian Casey.

Um Mr.

Chairman, and this is directed to our law department.

Would it be easier if we did not put this um under this piece of legislation, which would obviously have issues with the 99 year, and if we had just a separate piece of legislation not amending the lease and just giving them permission to do a docking fee?

And and if that's limited, this way it doesn't it doesn't affect the the 99 year lease.

Um Mr.

Chairman, I think the issue is that the lease currently says free and open to the public.

I I get that, but does the lease currently say anything about docking fees?

Or docking it it does not.

The uh implication is that if you charge for a docking that it's no longer free and open to the public.

No, I I no I I understand that, but what I'm what I'm trying to say is that is there a way to do this without affecting the 99-year lease.

Through the chairman and the councilman, I think the way that it's suggested is that the authorization is only for a five-year period.

And and that works for the docking fee issue, but it doesn't impact the rest of the lease.

And then that's what I want to make sure that we're not going to null and void or anything, the the 99-year lease, or they don't they don't break the lease or okay.

Can we go back to the law department?

Uh through the chair, that's correct.

Uh what Derek True DeRosa said.

So all other terms and provisions will be in full force in effect.

What we'll do is just put this provision restricted to docking for period of five years.

The the term of the lease will not be affected, neither will will any of the other provisions.

So, thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Yeah, uh, I would point out to my colleagues that the very last sentence of section one says all other terms and conditions of the lease shall remain unchanged and in full force and effect.

So they the section one currently ends with the clarification that the first sentence only relates to dock fees.

It doesn't relate to any other terms or conditions of the lease itself.

So uh if we just want to end with uh lease premise for a term for a period of five years in line four.

Uh if that just means that we all here have an understanding that we will need to come back to review this within five years, because it will expire.

Permission will simply expire.

Okay.

Strike the line and and return it to the original written ordinance.

Okay, Councilman Harsh has an amendment on the floor.

Um Councilman Harsh, can you repeat the amendment?

Um section one, line four, following the words premise the amendment insert for a period of five years.

Okay.

Is there a second on the floor?

Is there a second?

Councilman Star seconds that amendment.

Okay.

Is there any discussion?

Just a quick point of question.

Councilman Shaw.

To the chair, I I have concerns about the five-year period.

I'm wondering if it would be better to do either two or three years.

To my understanding, you know, this the flats, the East Bank has been going through some quite a lot of changes.

And I I can imagine in five years we could be looking at something completely different.

Um and having a shorter period of time, I think would allow us uh a greater degree of flexibility and control as there's you know rapid changes happening at the flat in the bank.

Okay.

Um you know, uh from the way I look at it, the five years is sufficient.

Uh we don't want to saddle them down with too much restrictions.

Um, but I understand your concerns.

Um so council, I'm gonna go back to Councilman Harsh.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Uh, in response to my colleague, I think that the reason five years is appropriate is that it gives them a chance to get up and running and get the whole thing um uh through a few annual cycles.

The water in Cleveland is very much a what is it, Labor Day to Memorial Day, or I got that backwards.

Um so get it through a few cycles to figure out how it's working.

I think it will take them a year or two just to get up and running.

So I think a five-year term comes back.

Um, they will clearly know that their authorization completely expires, meaning that they will not be able to charge docking fees after five years, which gives them a lot of motivation to bring this back successfully to us.

Um, but does give them a little bit of time to get everything up and running.

I I think five years is a is appropriate.

All right, Councilman Shaw.

Thank you.

All right, is there any other discussion?

All right.

The uh amendment was seconded.

All in favor of the amendment say aye.

Aye.

All opposed.

The ayes have it.

All right.

Ordinance number 14, ordinance number 1541 2025 is approved as amended.

All right, is there any questions on ordinance number 1541?

All right, please sign.

Thank you.

All right, I'm gonna call up next.

I'm gonna call up the uh NCA piece of legislation.

All right.

Uh ordinance number 1447, 2025 by Council Members Welsh, Bishop, Slife, and Griffin.

This is a departmental request.

An emergency ordinance to establish subfund 65 SF011 and 10 subfund 114 for the deposit and remittance of new community authority parking charges at certain city-owned parking facilities and to transfer any such collected charges, lest any city adjustments into your appropriate new fund.

All right.

Uh director, you want to start us off with this?

Yes.

Uh first um, I want to I want you to introduce your we got new members here and make sure everybody knows who you are.

Great.

Uh thank you, uh Chair.

My name is John Laird, and I am the director of the Department of Public Works.

Okay.

Jessica Trevasano, Deputy Chief of Staff and Chief Strategy Officer at the Mayor's Office.

Okay.

All right, go ahead.

All right.

Uh Chair and Committee.

This piece is like I put my papers on here.

Uh this piece is to establish the North Coast Waterfront new committee uh community authority and allows the city to assess NCA charges consistent with the NCA petition.

This legislation establishes the subfunds in both the Department of Public Port Control and the Department of Public Works for the deposit and remittance of funds as required for financial accounting purposes.

I'm going to hand this over uh to Jessica to be able to really give you more details on uh how this will work.

Good morning, everyone.

Thanks for having us today.

Um this is frankly a piece of cleanup legislation to establish subfunds related to legislation that was passed last year.

Uh so last year, City Council passed the North Coast Waterfront New Community Authority uh through ordinances 1061, 2024 and 564, 2025.

Uh those pieces of legislation set the ceiling for fees and authorize the city to enter into into an agreement with the new community authority related to parking charges and it authorized the city to remit those fees to the NCA.

Those new community authority fees will contribute to the construction of public space infrastructure and operations to enable lakefront development.

And a new community authority is a creative financing mechanism separate from any small enterprise fund or the city's general fund.

So last year we established uh the North Coast Waterfront New Community Authority, uh, went through all of the sort of steps required to create that authority.

Uh what this legislation does is due to an administrative error, this council authorized the city to uh create the NCA to collect charges on behalf of the NCA.

Uh but right now finance is not able to move those fees from the city to the NCA because we did not have the sub funds necessary set up in port control and in public works that we need in order to kind of separate out those fees and s send those fees to the NCA, which is the administrative uh way that we send those fees over.

Uh so what this piece of legislation does is it just establishes those subfunds.

It's really just an administrative process to for us to meet our contractual obligations with the NCI.

While we're talking about the NCA, I figured I'd give you a little bit of an update.

Uh just as a reminder, the agreed upon NCA fees uh for city parking uh consistent with the NCA ordinance is one dollar for weekdays.

Uh that's true for every uh parking lot that's part of this except for Willard, three dollars on weekends, and five dollars for special events.

As a reminder, these are not parking charges.

These are NCA charges that apply to folks who use city-owned parking lots.

So they are separate from our parking charges.

Parking charges still go to our various uh departments for parking fees.

These are new community authority fees that are separate from those charges.

Uh these fees are not applicable to our monthly parkers.

They also only apply if somebody pays for parking.

So if a parking lot is free for some reason for a given period of time, there's no NCA fee assessed.

And these special event charges only apply if the rate is $10 or less.

So I think that's most applicable to Willard.

Uh, if we have some sort of event at City Hall where we have folks coming in after hours for some sort of cultural event, uh we might charge, you know, some nominal rate for parking as long as it's under $10.

We don't have an NCA fee assessed.

The city has been collecting these fees since August of 2025, and we have collected a total of just over $200,000 uh for the North Coast Waterfront NCA, and I have a breakdown here.

That's all I have by way of presentation.

I'm happy to answer questions.

All right, thank you.

All right, so um this is just uh basically a uh exercise to kind of correct what we did um when we passed NCA legislation um in was it 2025 or 2024?

Yeah, to the chair, we passed both pieces in 2025, but that's correct.

This is an administrative correction.

Okay.

All right.

Um I'm gonna go to um committee um Councilman.

Chris Harsh.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Um I do understand that the existence and authority of the NCA is not up for discussion today.

That was already handled, passed by uh council last year.

Um we're simply looking to establish the sub funds that allow us to uh actually transfer the funds.

Um but so that just leads my only question through the chair to the director.

Uh, where are the funds currently sitting?

And if we know that we've collected them, how do we know that we collected them if they're not?

Yeah, yeah, to the to the councilman through the chair, I can answer.

They are sitting respectively with the division of parking and the division of port control.

So those entities, when they collect parking charges, also collect the NCA fee.

And then what's uh supposed to happen is then we kind of separate out those fees, the NCA fees into a one subfund and then the parking charges and their regular either small edit their small enterprise fund.

So right now we've on the back end, we have an accounting mechanism to know which are NCA fees and which are not.

But we need to be able to move them into their own little subfund bucket and then from that transfer to the NCA.

So essentially through the chair, they're sitting in a general sub fund that that division uses, but by creating a new subfund, we can put the funds there and then empty the bucket.

So yeah, so yeah, that's correct.

So I'm sorry, through the chair to the councilman.

Just think of it as when you go to the store and you get something, you buy something, you pay the taxes.

Well, the store collects that and then later on they'll cut off and they'll send it to the organization they're supposed to.

Same way we just didn't have a place to send it to.

So that's what we're doing today.

Understood.

Thank you, Chair.

All right, thank you, Councilman House.

Uh Councilman Shaw.

Thank you.

Uh to the director.

Through the chair, just had a um so this money hasn't been used by the NCA yet.

I've been wondering where's the NCBA been getting its money that it's been using so far.

Yeah, to the councilman through the chair, the North Coast Waterfront New Community Authority has not, you're right, been using this money.

Um they are counting on it in the future, and they know that it's kind of set aside for them.

Uh the city in uh a couple of years ago allocated some funds to the North Coast Waterfront Development Corporation.

That's been what's been used for lakefront operations to date.

Um, but right now they haven't their their operation, the NCA operations have been pretty minimal because they don't have dollars to put towards those operations yet.

I see.

Thank you.

All right, thank you, Councilman Shaw.

Councilman Brian Casey.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman, Mr.

Chairman, to our director or special assistant chief?

Chief.

Uh oh yeah, your chief now.

Um much has been raised so far?

How much is sitting there?

Uh to the councilman, uh, just over 200,000 dollars.

Okay, thank you.

All right, thank you, Councilman Casey.

Is there any other questions on ordinance number 14, 47, 2025?

Seeing no further questions, ordinance number 14 47 2025 is approved.

Please sign it.

Thank you.

All right.

Director, you you you're gonna close this out?

Closing this out, right?

Yes, we have two pieces.

Yep.

Yes, sir.

All right.

Um, ordinance number 33, 2026 by council members uh Bishop Griffin.

This is a departmental request, an emergency ordinance authorizing the purchase by one or more requirement contracts of listed carts, street receptacles, and compactors for the division of waste collection and disposal, Department of Public Works for a period up to three years.

All right.

Okay, thank you.

Uh Chair.

All right, Director, can you uh have your um I know who he is, but can you have him introduce yourself to the new committee?

Uh good morning, Mr.

Chair.

Uh, my name is Terrell Pruitt.

I am the Commissioner of Waste Collection and Disposal.

Also have some uh members of staff here.

Okay, would you like to introduce them also?

Well can I come to the table?

Come to the table.

Yeah, one more other, yeah, one more guest too, right?

Okay.

Good morning.

My name is Leandria Stevenson.

And in your position?

I do procurement.

Procurement.

Okay.

For waste collection.

Okay.

We have new members here as well.

I'm stressing this because I want everybody to know what you do and who you are.

Okay.

Good morning.

My name is Tangela Scott.

I am the administrative manager for our operations section.

Waste collection.

Waste collection.

Okay.

Good morning.

My name is Crystal Lazaway Patterson.

I am also an administrative manager at Waste Collections.

And you are uh uh resident of Ward too, correct?

I am, Councilman.

Okay.

All right.

I just want to clarify that.

All right.

Uh all right, director, you want to take this?

Thank you.

Thank you, Chair.

This piece uh uh purposes of this piece, I'm sorry, I'm trying to get used to my technology here.

The purpose of the speech for the division of waste uh to replace approximately 10,000 to 12,000 broken or missing carts.

The division of waste is also replacing age damage street receptacles uh through this city, adding compactors to the city through these facilities.

So not just the carts for this piece, we're also looking to be able to buy receptacles that you see throughout the city, as well as uh compact compactors, which is uh something I won't say it's new, but it's something that we want to do more of.

It makes our operations more effective.

And with that, I will open it up.

Did you want to any statements?

Uh uh, Mr.

Chair, this this legislation is not uh we're not looking for additional funds, just gives authority to expend.

Okay.

So um now, how much um uh how much is this contract gonna be worth uh direct?

I mean, Commissioner.

Uh through the chair, there's actually no contract in place.

So we purchase uh carts and we purchase compactors on a competitive bid.

Uh there is a number of uh co-ops that the city uses uh that allows us to go out, that has already been competitive to bid that allows us to go out and purchase uh carts.

We have to go out for bid.

I mean, for us receptacles, we have to go for bid uh each time.

Uh this legislation, what it does, it gives us the ability to expend more than $50,000, which allows it to build our stuff our surplus so that way we can um deliver a service in a reasonable amount of time.

Okay.

Um so this contract is uh this uh this is for three years, correct?

Uh yes.

And can you explain um and this is two point three million for uh is this two million per year?

How's that that's our exit uh Mr.

Chair?

That's how much we ex um expect to expend each year.

Each year?

Okay.

Um so how much have we spent over the past previous years on carts?

Did you have that information?

Uh yes.

Uh uh, Mr.

Chair, on the um on the summary, we spent one point six two uh one point six million dollars last year.

Okay.

Okay.

All right, and I'm gonna open up questions for the committee.

Is there any questions?

I'll go ahead and councilman councilman Brian Casey.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Mr.

Chairman to the director, how many carts does the city have through the chair to the councilman?

Do you mean um actively being used or in in inventory?

No, actively being used.

Oh uh, we have about 300,000 that's been deployed.

And then how many of those um get replaced per year?

About 10 to 12,000.

And we have 300,000 throughout the city, and that's the black and the blue cans, correct?

Uh, through the chair, that's correct.

And then when are the blue cans going to be taken who be for people who have not opted into recyclable?

So through the chair to the councilman, that is something we're trying to do.

Um we actually brought in a consultant to help us think through how to do this correctly.

Okay, because there's one we could yank the cards, but we know that that's going to be an issue.

So we we we're trying to work through a plan.

Our hope is by the time we get to the end of the year, but that's something we need to really work through to do it, make sure we get the education out, make sure we do all the things right.

So our hope is this year, but and what is the process, Mr.

Chairman, to the director or the commissioner if somebody wants an additional can?

Uh through the chair, if somebody wants an additional cart, they can call three in one, put in a service request.

Uh, we fill those requests, they're not a priority request.

We fill them within 30 days.

And uh first thing they need to do is they have to uh there it's a lease, it's a lease process, they have to pay 75 uh dollars.

Uh we only take uh credit card or money order and or you know, credit card check and money order.

Once the payments been received, then we'll make sure the card is uh delivered within 30 days.

All right, and then Mr.

Chairman to the commissioner, the director, why are we charging if if people are forced to have our our cans, right?

But they need an additional can.

We don't know everybody's situation, right?

You just need an additional can.

You've got an overabundance of people in the house.

They're they're filling the recyclable can.

I'll use me as an example, right?

Our recycling can fills very quickly, right?

I have eight people living in my house, right?

The garbage accumulates quickly.

There's other people out there who are in that same situation who could just use an additional can.

Why are we charging people for an additional can if no other way to have your garbage picked up in the city of Cleveland is through our program, right?

So we hit we own a monopoly on you know, trash pickup anyways, and now if somebody, a family just needs an additional cart, and they're utilizing it and they're putting two carts out every week, why are we charging them for them?

Sure, uh through the chair to the councilman.

Um there's two trades of thought with that.

The first trade of thought is uh probably the most simple is that the the carts there is a cost as you can see here that we are paying about 1.8 million dollars a year for carts and trying to help supplement with that.

Uh if so, if you have the one cart is free, but the additional cart to be able for us to be able to just stay on top of these carts, we have to have some kind of way to have a mechanism to be able to pay for it.

Number two, uh, if you know the idea or the thought is where we want to try to steer people more towards recycling.

And so if you know, if we elicit or allow you to have more carts, it's almost kind of defeats the purpose of recycling.

But we understand that people need to have more carts.

So it's kind of this compromise and balance.

So that's kind of the the two trades of thought, but why we have to charge for that.

Okay, and then Mr.

Chairman to the director of the commissioner, since there is a fee that we you know, you're spending 1.6 million last year, how much was raised through the trash collection fee?

Uh through the chair, approximately $13 million.

Okay.

So if we're spending $1.6 million, or we'll even give you the two million estimated a year on carts.

But on that fee, and I realize there's more to the fee, more things get paid for, but that's not the way the regular resident looks at it, right?

They look at it like that fee is to have my garbage picked up.

You're there anyways.

What's the difference if you're picking up one cart or two carts?

Uh and you're making $13 million a year.

Now I I get the finances of it all, but I'm, you know, the your average regular resident here's your making $13 million a year, you're spending $2 million, and you want to charge me $75 for an additional cart.

That's the thinking of, you know, your average Joe resident.

So can you address that?

Uh through the chair to the councilman, the the budget for waste collection annually is about 40 million dollars.

So the uh 13 million dollars that's collected to the waste collection fee is doesn't doesn't cover the cost of the operation.

Uh additionally, if you go back to when we had a pure manual system when everyone purchased their own uh garbage cans, the Arska, the Oscar the Grouch Garbage Cans that we call them, they're about 20 gallons.

What do you call them?

We call them just the regular Oscar the Grouch garbage cans.

What is it?

Oscar the ground.

Oh, Oscar the Group Chair to the Council.

Oh, I thought he was saying something to the ground.

Okay, Oscar the Grouch.

Okay.

So if you remember, you if you can visualize those garbage cans, they're about 20 gallons.

And most people put out about four of those carts uh back in the day when we had a manual system.

Uh currently we issue you about a hundred and fifty five gallons worth of collection, uh 96 gallons for the uh for the black cart and 64 gallons for uh the blue, so you have more capacity that the city issued you.

Uh any more uh capacity uh that you that a person needs, uh we all we'll um give you a set we'll we'll give you the capacity, but it costs 75 dollars because each cart costs about 70 bucks.

And Mr.

Chairman to the commissioner, is that $75?

Was that a legislative thing or was that is that just the policy of uh public works?

Through the chair, that was uh it was passed in the ordinance uh two or three years ago.

Okay.

All right, thank you.

All right, thank you, Councilman Casey.

Um director, and uh section three, it says the proper appropriate accounts and the director finance will certify the amount of any purchase under the contract.

So what what accounts are we um using for this uh purchase director?

Uh so through the chair to the uh councilman.

Um I believe we use capital funding as well as general fund.

Um that's capital funding, yeah, capital funding, and we don't know what those capital funds will be.

Um so that's why we typically have that that line in there.

So when the apples actual capital funds do come, and we actually are able to create them, then we can use that legislation for it.

Okay.

So this is in the capital plan.

This money is in the capital plan.

Through the chair to the council, uh to the I'm sorry, to the chair, yes, but it doesn't the capital funding won't cover all of it.

It won't be cover the receptacles, it won't cover the compactors.

So that's why we'll have to use a mix of both general fund and capital funding.

Okay.

All right, let me go to councilwoman Gray.

Thank you, Chair.

Good morning, everybody.

I just have a question I already posted to uh Commissioner Um, which he does excellent job.

I just say your team does an excellent job, so I I don't have a lot of complaints.

I just have uh um uh additional question for Commissioner Purit, would he help us out greatly with this?

With the um, you know, due to the fact that you want to uh require more um you know rest additional carts.

I have called on a previous occasion of when um homes uh when uh when landlords um abandoned their homes and they have all the additional carts left in their um on their property.

I have called you and you have certainly come to pick those up.

Uh chair to the commissioner, uh, when you pick those uh carts that's left at those abandoned homes, are they are in use to be used and or you know, do you have to um service them or get rid of them or recycle them per se?

Uh through the chair to the councilwoman, uh orphan carts as we call them, uh when we recover those carts, depending on the nature, uh most of those cars are damaged.

And uh if they are if they don't have very much damage, we will reuse them.

But then the general intent is that those carts are then uh sent to be recycled, or they're uh so the the value of the cart is in the resin.

Uh we'll collect the number of those carts and we'll actually have a uh uh one of the uh manufacturers, they'll come and collect those carts from us.

Okay, okay.

And then the second question, um you said you also want to um require more street um street recipibles.

Those are those uh metal trash containers that you have on the um corner of the neighborhood.

Are those are the ones, Chair to the Commissioner?

I'm I'm sorry, Mr.

Uh the street reciprocals are those the metal ones that you put on the sidewalk, you know, on the street or the corners.

Uh through the chair, uh miss uh to the council lady, yes.

Well our our plan is to replace all concrete receptacles with black metal or decorative receptacles, and this allows us to purchase um a stockpile so we can start that process once the weather breaks.

Okay, thank you for that.

And the uh second half question to that.

Now many of the residents in the neighborhood are requesting those type of uh street reciprocals on the corner now.

A lot of um a lot of the corners don't have them now.

I don't know the cost, but um but uh in the dish you have you uh ordering them, you know, will those be put um you know in the neighborhood more now than ever uh through the chair to the councilwoman, yes.

So if a resident wants a uh they have an idea where they like to have a new receptacle in their community, uh they need to get in contact with 311, uh put in their service request, uh we evaluate each service request, you know, it's just it's a criteria that we try to evaluate to see if does it make sense to put a receptacle there?

Uh then once we uh look at that, we try to do the whole uh neighborhood.

So we be a little bit more uh uh systematic in our approach.

Uh as a is we only install receptacles between April Fool's Day and Halloween.

And then what we try to do is be systematic and do the whole community at one time.

Okay.

So if you have a resident that is interested in a uh either a replacement of a concrete receptacle, or they got an idea this might be a good place for a new one, putting a service request, and uh we evaluate those service requests at that time.

Okay, and also one last question, Chair to that.

Is there any information that you can uh gather up and and uh have advertised or market to the residents because this is a constant question that I get all the time because residents do not understand how you measure that, and they want a you know, and they want a street reciprocal on every corner, and I know that's impossible, but however, due to your booklet that you have mailed out to the residents, is that information in the booklet for them to re-and or could you uh manifest a flyer or put it out on the city website or give it to us so I can put on my website because this is a constant question, as you know that I probably email you or Mr.

Richards, and it's and uh and sometimes our residents do not understand the process because they definitely want what they want.

But due to the uh ordinance and the regulations of the waste department, sometimes we sometimes a black and white document serves the purpose for them to understand something visually.

So could you kind of create that or um come to my community meeting sometime this summer and get the information out because it because now because due to so much trash we have, walking trash we have in the neighborhood, everybody wants that street reciprocal on a corner constantly all the time, and I know that's not effective, but I just need some assistance from your uh department to show forthwith that this is going to happen, but how it's going to happen, Chair to the Commissioner.

Uh yes, uh through the chair to the councilwoman, we will do that.

Uh we never considered putting that type of information out.

Okay.

There's not a big bar for us to get the yes.

We generally try to get the yes.

Okay.

Uh, there are some occasions where it doesn't make sense for us to put a receptacle, uh, but we will uh take your consideration.

Okay, thank you.

I appreciate it.

Thank you.

Thank Councilman Gray.

Councilman Shaw.

Thank you through the chair to the directors.

Uh really appreciate your work.

Last year I requested a new cart and I got it very quickly after, so I I do appreciate.

I was wondering, I wanted to dig in on that timeline.

Uh on average, right now, what how long is it taking for residents to get new carts?

Uh through the chair, we have five business days.

And then um, that's our SLA.

Uh, through the chair, that's our SLA.

We have our service level agreement that we had to get it within five.

So that's that's our we um that's what we that's what we aim to do.

And uh to the director, through the chair, I was wondering about the street receptacles that councilwoman just mentioned.

Uh approximately how many of those do we have that are not assigned to like a residential address?

Oh, uh through the chair, we don't have a rock solid number, and we think it's between 700 and 800 throughout the city of Cleveland, that's including in the downtown service area.

Uh part of this process is that we'll actually when we they never been um identified.

Uh while as we go through the process now is installing them, we're also adding them to the GIS uh platform so that way you'll always have a number.

I see, thank you.

And uh through the chair, do so if if we're not tracking them, I'm presuming we don't have uh different plan for those pickups than residential, or they just picked up at the same time, or what's the timeline for that look like?

Uh through the chair, they would never they have never been tracked.

We are tracking them now as we install.

The new black ones are being tracked.

Uh, and we service uh receptacles two times per week uh during the winter months and three times per week during the spring and summer and to the fall.

We uh we service them on their correct if whatever neighborhood they're in, that collection day they're serviced, the service at a second time throughout the week, and then on Saturday, they're all service one time.

Thank you.

All right, thank you, Councilman Shaw.

Uh is there any other questions on ordinance number 33 2026?

I have one more question.

Attention, one more question.

All right, go ahead, council.

To the residents.

Now, uh, when you spoke about the additional fee for the second uh canister for the second cart for a resident to purchase.

Now, I think you noticed or Mr.

Richards was called in on this or emailed.

Uh some of the residents said that they bought the old garbage container.

And when they put it out there with their other containers, that container was actually picked up and tossed in the dumpster, and said that they was not allowed to use those containers anymore, you know, to put their trash in.

They can put a black bag next to the other containers, but not that old silver uh uh steel container, and uh uh it was actually uh uh tossed into the dumpster.

So it was a waste of money for them, and they do not and they do not understand why they can't use that silver container to put additional trash on the um on the tree line and keep it for their use instead of it being tossed into the dumpster.

So uh com so um chair to the commissioner, since the we have the audience on uh on uh TV 20, could you explain to them why they cannot use their uh container, their steel container and put it on the tree line and keep it, otherwise being actually tossed in the dumpster.

Uh okay, so um councilwoman, I'm gonna have him answer that question during miscellaneous.

Okay, so we can we finish this piece of legislation up and then we'll go back to Mr.

Okay, thank you.

We'll take your question first.

So put a pen in that.

Yeah, um so councilman Harsh has an uh who wants to offer an amendment to the piece to this piece.

Yes, thank you, Mr.

Chair, and I thank the councilwoman for bringing that up.

I also have a miscellaneous item I'd like to get to after the legislation.

Um but uh through the chair, um I'd like to offer three amendments.

Um the first one being at the end of section two.

Insert the following sentence.

The director of public works shall provide written notice to the clerk of council whenever any purchase is made through the cooperative process, which notice shall include the details of such cooperative purchases.

The second amendment would be in section three line one after contract or contracts, insert in the estimated amount of two million three hundred thousand dollars, and the third be in section three line two, strike proper appropriation accounts and insert general fund, comma 2026 through 2028 bonds, comma, if issued for this purpose, comma, and fund number 11 SF 006.

Strike proper appropriation accounts and insert general fund, comma, twenty twenty-six through twenty twenty-eight bonds, comma, if issued for this purpose, comma, and fund number 11 SF 006.

All right.

Umsh has an amendment on the floor.

Um is there a second second?

All right, Councilman Casey seconds.

Okay, is there any discussion?

Yes.

Could you council Councilwoman Gray?

Yes, council uh councilman harsh, could you kind of elaborate a little bit more on why you want that amended?

Because I didn't quite clearly understand.

Sure.

Uh thank you, Mr.

Chair, to the the council lady.

The first amendment is designed to keep uh the council notified when purchases are made so that we uh can keep an eye on the expenditures.

Um the second amendment is designed the the intent is to um put an expectation of dollars spent while giving them a small buffer, about a 15% buffer in the estimated cost, and the third amendment is to more uh specifically clarify the funds from which the money will be spent.

Okay.

All right.

Uh is so is there any director?

Go ahead.

If uh just to ask one quick question, will will that threshold be per year?

I'm sorry, will the two two million, I think three will that be per year?

Yes.

Okay.

That'll be per year.

Section three that the total the the cost of the contract or contracts the estimated amount of two million three hundred thousand.

But per year, not for the shall be charged against the proper appropriation accounts, and the director of finance shall certify the amount of any purchase under the contract.

It does not specify per year, it just simply so that is per year, yeah.

That is per year.

Um in the um executive summary is two million per year.

Right.

So we're giving you a 15 percent buffer, so it's 2.3 million per year.

Okay.

So please reflect that per year, okay.

All right.

So is there any d other discussion on the amendment?

All right, those in favor of the amendment say aye.

Those opposed the ayes have it.

Okay.

Um so ordinance number 3326, 2026 is approved as amended.

All right, please sign.

Thank you.

All right, director.

Um, we're gonna open this up for miscellaneous.

Just a minute.

Just a minute.

We're gonna open this up for miscellaneous.

Um I'm gonna first I'm gonna go go ahead, go on.

There's one more piece.

Yeah, we're gonna go to that.

We're just gonna why the waste department is here because this piece is for some other department.

Um, we're gonna go back to Councilman Gray, and then we're gonna come back to Brian Casey.

Councilman Gray.

Uh, that's that thank you, Chair.

That question was to Commissioner uh Pruitt uh through the chair, uh Councilman.

So residents are only allowed to place out the black and blue cart.

Uh bags of yard waste is the only thing that's allowed to be placed outside of the carts.

Bulk items, three or more, generally uh furniture, appliances, and then uh and things that nature when you put out a uh unauthorized card, it does cause issues.

Uh we do service those cars because we put we always want to clear the curb, but we do not destroy those cards.

So if you if you have incidents where somebody has destroyed a cars, let us know.

Because of the re uh because the uh because the collectors are not allowed to destroy those carts at all.

Uh but they are not permitted to be placed out.

So the resident each resident is issued two carts, one for a recycling, one for uh trash, uh and anything they're allowed to place out of those two carts, yard waste as bagged or bundled, and uh bulk items either upon request or when is bulk weak.

Okay, all right, thank you.

All right, thank you, Councilwoman Gray.

Councilman Brian Casey.

Thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Mr.

Chairman to the director and the commissioner.

Umplaints that we have an increase in is bulk.

And I think it's we've had bulk issues now for for a while, right?

And one of the results of only having bulk pickup once a month is illegal dumping that's that's been going on.

Even even if it's just people going down the street dropping a mattress somewhere, you know, we're still dealing with those issues.

Or boats.

Yeah.

Um I know.

Um are you open to revisiting bulk at least twice a month?

Um or more often, I mean, we're just we're it's just the increase is just becoming almost overbearing.

Through th through the chair to the councilman, yeah, we we are absolutely open um to that um to be able to have discussions about what how we could manage that.

I do say we do have to balance the capacity that we currently have um and and the staffing, but I'll let the commissioner speak a little bit more about that.

Uh through the chair to the council, councilman actually a residents can request uh bulk pickup three more times throughout the month.

So if they call 311, so technically if a resident has more bulk uh items they need to dispose of than they do on their regular um bulk week, they're allowed to put in request.

So we often have bulk pickup throughout the month anyway by request.

All right, so you're saying we have bulk pickup, but then uh a resident can request three additional bulk pickups a month.

So how long and how far in advance does that request have to be made?

Before their collection day, so theoretically, say if their collection day is uh Tuesday, if they had put their request in today, then they uh their bulk we picked up tomorrow.

If they're if the collection day is today, they would have to put that request in uh Friday.

Okay, so and how how is Mr.

Chairman to the commissioner, can you tell us how that request is made?

Uh through the chair, they have to request it through 311.

Okay.

So anybody at any point then unless there's five weeks in a in a month could potentially get four bulk pickups a month if they call three one one.

Yes, through the chair.

Uh we we often we're we're picking up bulk throughout the entire month uh by request.

Okay.

So it it it is something that we have already taken in consideration and there's a uh process in place for them to uh do that.

Okay, so just to reiterate, and it's it's for the viewing public, right?

Any week or no, you get your regular bulk week, which is the first week of the month.

Any resident that would need additional bulk, all they have to do is contact 311 at least the day before your bulk your your regular collection day.

If your collection day is Monday, you got to do it on Friday.

By Friday.

By Friday, correct.

And then that bulk will be picked up without an additional charge to the resident.

Uh through the chair, as long as they follow the uh bulk guideline set out.

Right, right.

The we I understand that.

Um, because this isn't for like a set out for a landlord or nothing like that, right?

This this is just whatever you would be able to put out on your regular bulk.

For example, Mr.

Chairman of the Commissioner, I get a new mattress set, right?

As long as and it's not my bulk week.

But as long as I call 311, set my bulk items out appropriately, then the city will pick up.

Through the chair, that's correct.

Okay.

Can that request also be done through a council office if the council office uses 311?

Uh through the chair, it has to be in 311s.

The reason it goes into 311 is that goes directly to our format.

I I I under I understand that, but as long as it gets into 311, it doesn't necessarily have to come from the resident as long as somebody puts it into 311.

That's correct.

All right, thank you.

All right, thank you, Councilman Casey.

I'm gonna go to Brian Councilman um Chris Harsh.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Um I'm I'm glad we're talking about bulk.

Uh I've had a number of residents ticketed for bulk set out uh in the in the last couple of months.

One lady was actually ticketed for a bag, uh not a broken bag, just a bag of not not yard waste, just bag of stuff, and um it was ticketed for it and it wasn't picked up.

And I'm curious, um I think an extra bag was something that everybody expected would be an eligible set out for bulk week.

Uh through the chair, why isn't a bag of uh trash acceptable for a bulk week pickup?

So uh through the chair to the councilman right now, currently per the legislation.

Um it is structured so that it's no items outside the the cart except for um uh debris or something.

So through the chair, why isn't that one of the three items?

Well that you you mean for bulk or for a bulk week.

Oh, for bulk that's not permitted.

Yeah.

No, through the chair, no, the uh bags are not permitted for bulk.

Is it's furniture appliances, mattresses, uh um bulky items, garbage, additional garb dark additional bags of trash are not permitted for collection.

So if somebody through the chair, if somebody cleans out their basement and gets rid of a bunch of stuff, uh what what are they supposed to put it in in order to include it in a bulk pickup?

Uh through the chair, if they have additional items that don't fit into the cart, and like for your scenario, they clean out their basement, they're still permitted to take those items to uh the Ridge Road tramp station for free, but they can't place those out for collection.

Through the chair, I find that kind of shocking.

I mean, we're talking about just general disposal of of just household items that the lady didn't need and there was nothing, the bag was not punctured.

I saw a picture, it was a beautiful, perfect little flat bag, glad bag, and but it would have been nothing to throw it in the truck, but she got uh uh a ticket and she it ruined her her week and her month.

So through the chair to the councilman, that that is actually we the commissioner and I have been working on and actually we sat down with uh uh with the chair to to kind of think about ways that we could um some recommendations we have on the legislation or the ordinance for this.

So um I I will say that uh we those are things that we can take under advisement as we're thinking about ways that we can improve this this uh this legislation.

And through through the chair, are the uh the the workers instructed to use any discretion?

If they if they see something like, oh, this is clearly just a bag of something, there's a truck right there, I'm right here.

I might as well go ahead and take care of this since I'm here anyway, or or are they in like ordered to absolutely every single time a bag is a ticket.

I know the commission is gonna answer I'm gonna let them as well, but I I won't say it's ordered, but I think what our goal is to have consistency.

So what we what we want to try to do is to be able to to give our staff working rules so that it's not treated one way in one part of town and treat it another way.

So we we try our best to keep consistency the simpler you make it, the better it is.

And that's why we really try to focus on you know, this is what the ordinance says, this is what we can understand, this is what we can mandate, and this is what we could actually effectively operate throughout the entire city.

Again, is it perfect?

Um you know, no, nothing's perfect.

But again, that's why we the commissioner and I sat down to try to figure out ways that we can make uh this legislation a little bit um I guess more palatable.

So we're working through those things.

But again, to be able to really do the program citywide when you're dealing with all kinds of um uh different you know different landscapes geologically, geographically, we try to make it as simple as possible.

So it does seem draconian, right?

But uh when you give a lot of folks leeway, you you start getting unpredictable results.

So we really try to keep it as as ordered and as you know as possible.

And again, is it perfect?

No.

Our goal is not to make these folks machines, but at the same time, we do have to keep a standardization across across the city.

And and Mr.

Chair, thank you uh for for the answer.

I I would like to sort of revisit this at a time when we have maybe when this topic comes up for for full discussion.

I don't know.

I I'm new to this committee, so I'm not sure if that is like a schedule, is that an operations hearing later in the fall when we get around to how the business is actually done, maybe we we open up the the hood and look at it then.

Um but I do have one other question while we're here.

Um the number one complaint I get, Mr.

Chair, uh from my neighbors is people who don't return their trash cans to uh the back of their house and instead leave them on the curb all week long.

Um and that that is the one and and I agree with them entirely.

It is absolutely free to for you to pull your trash can back to your house, it doesn't cost you anything.

Um it's dirty, gross, and disgusting, and it turns the neighborhood into a dump.

Um the reason we pick up trash is so that we don't have it in the neighborhood, and it drives me crazy when people don't take their trash cans back.

And I I've I've asked uh always that we ticket those folks because those are the folks that need to be reminded that there's a reason uh that we live in a civil society.

Um and and instead uh people get ticketed for bulk week.

It seems like the tickets seem to be when the when the when the crews are out there, not in the in-between days.

I think trash pickup in in my neighborhood is almost Wednesday, Thursday, Friday covers the whole neighborhood.

Monday would be a great day to drive around.

Monday would be a great day to go down the streets to see who's not returning their trash cans and ticket those individuals, but it seems like the only people that get tickets are people that have bulk items on when the crews are there.

Through the chair, what what is the process for for I don't know if it's supervisor crews to go out on opposite pickup days?

So if I'm picked up on Thursday to go out on a Monday and see who's not returning their cans.

Uh through the chair to the councilman, uh they write all type of the the individuals who write citations are the foreman who manage the crew.

There are nine foremen who are deployed throughout the city of Cleveland, and they're have a responsibility not only to supervise their collection crews, but also to write uh citations.

The primary concentration is on the day's work because that's where the majority, that's where their intention must be.

They do write uh tickets for uh fare to uh remove uh carts.

A lot of those uh complaints come in through 311, multiple residents throughout the city of Cleveland call, they go out and they respond.

Uh when they have um opportunity, they will go back a couple days uh in the past to write citations for folks who did not put carts back.

On Saturdays, we do work on Saturdays between uh April and October.

Uh during on those days, they generally focus most of their attention for writing citations on failure to move carts and also for folks who put trash out early on Saturdays.

But when they're on their collection day, those uh supervisors, they have to stay focused in on that collection day's work in order to make sure that everything's collected properly.

Well, um I I that's kind of what I suspected.

The the supervisors have to be following the crews on the day that the crews are out picking up trash to make sure the trash collection itself is going smoothly and appropriately, and therefore they're not as available on off days, although they they do try to get to it.

Uh, I would just say that uh through the chair that I think the better source of revenue collection for the waste department is on people that don't take their trash cans back than on people who set the wrong bulk item out.

That's just I think uh something I think a lot of neighbors would agree with.

So I understood noted.

All right, thank you, Councilman Harris.

Uh you made a great point.

Um we're gonna go back to councilwoman Gray.

Thank you.

That's one more uh concern came to my mind.

I have a resident uh that we know the we know the carts have to be taken back to the back the next day by 12 noon.

Correct.

So the resident got a citation.

She called me and she also responded to the citation, and she got the ticket.

She got the ticket at 11 47.

That the cart was still on the tree line the day after her trash was picked up.

She had the 12 noon.

She said the ticket was written at 1147 the next day.

So she uh uh called and said that why would you write me a ticket and you picked it up a and you cited me at 1147 and it wasn't 12 noon.

So when she called me, I sent that center of the I uh uh Mr.

Richards is fantastic.

So uh he he we called the address and the the homeowner and um and I think his response was that um I don't I really can't don't quote me, but I think he said that they traveled back after the fact and the trash container was still there.

However, the homeowner said, but the ticket was was cited at 1147, not after 12 noon because uh because she can't get two tickets.

So, but the ticket is a hundred dollars.

She said that she feels that she doesn't have to pay it.

So this has been ongoing.

As as I have been into hearings with um commissioner and Mr.

Richards um prior to they have to go to a second hearing, blah blah blah.

So uh so it hasn't gotten that far as of yet.

So she called me again and said that um they refuse to not uh uh uh not cancel the ticket out because the ticket was written at one uh 1147, and regardless, because she works if the ticket was written at one 1147, and if you travel back after after 12, you know, and the second ticket wasn't written.

Why does she have to pay the hundred dollars because the ticket was cited at 1147?

So this is an ongoing matter.

So she brought it back to my attention.

I went on to her house, so now it's going back and forth.

So now who should address this?

Uh, through the chair to the councilwoman.

Sounds in sneer, the ticket was written in error.

The resident should contest the ticket and then just present that evidence and then everything will be taken care of.

So she still should come to the hearing.

She should have a hearing to contest it.

Yes, through the chair, yes, she should.

All right, thank you.

All right, thank you, Councilwoman Gray.

Um, is there any other questions for the uh waste department?

Uh one question, Commissioner, before I let you go.

Um, the um when we had Martin Luther King Day, the week we had Martin Luther King Day, and it was uh below zero degree temperatures uh throughout that week and and um the waste department council pick up that one day.

Uh that uh during that week that through yeah, if I could that that was my call.

Okay.

It was the two-day cancellation.

Right.

Right.

Uh Mr.

Chair, are you referring to before Martha King Day?

It was the week of that was the week.

It was the week of.

So we so the residents were very confused because number one, Martin King Day fell on that week, so everything was delayed, and then all of a sudden we canceled on that that one yeah, no, actually, the week before what happened was the week before that.

That was I think that would be the week of the 12th or something like that.

Okay.

The storm hit, and so we canceled collection for Thursday and Friday, which I believe was the 14th and the 15th.

15th.

You come around Martin Luther King, it was Monday, so it was kind of like this you know, perfect storm where we got a lot of um but that was my call to cancel for those two days.

Okay, because of the way the storm went.

We were using the waste collection folks to help us plow.

Uh so it it just made sense.

I thought it just made sense for us to keep plowing until we got it done.

So that was not that was uh that was totally my call.

So the question is is that the proper um to inform everybody because you know a lot of us got caught off guard because we we know everything was in chaos because of the storm and it was below temperatures.

The way we inform the whole entire city so the residents understand that it's been delayed.

So we do have a the system in place where we make that notification.

We uh notify the mayor's office of communication, uh and they do the the job of making the communication to the public.

Uh I I try I think but that week I also believe I may have sent an email out, but if if I did not, I'll make sure that that happens to the uh council to make sure that you know that this is our plans.

Okay.

All right, Commissioner.

Uh uh through the chair, uh Mr.

Chair, we also have a consultant uh that we have on place.

There's other ways that you can to be more proactive or informing residents.

Uh we know throughout the city of Cleveland, some parts that we do have a transit population.

We never really had a way to directly contact individuals about days of service.

Uh, that's something that we know we will like to try to find.

Uh and so there's a consultant that we actually all have on board, and one of their tasks is to try to help us communicate better.

Okay.

All right.

All right.

Well, I thank you uh the waste department for all your efforts, and uh you've been doing a great job.

And um thank you.

All right, cool.

Thanks.

All right, the next and next last but not least, we got ordinance number 455 2025.

This is by council members Bishop Polinic and Griffin.

This is a departmental request, an emergency ordinance authorizing the purchase by one or more contracts of labor and materials necessary to retrofit a division of police command bus, including installation for the division of motor vehicle maintenance, department of public works, and or department of public safety.

All right, director.

Thank you, uh Chair.

We uh this piece here it will allow the department to provide uh this legislation to enter into a standard contract for the retrofit of the command bus utilized by the division of police.

This ordinance authorizes the director of public works and the director of public safety to execute all necessary agreements and documents to complete the work at estimated cost about 320,000 dollars.

I have Commissioner Brown here to speak a little bit more about this uh the command bus.

Morning.

Um the chair.

Uh the current command bus is uh uh approximately 13 years old, and all the technology, uh the the IT package on it is is outdated.

So this uh uh legislation would allow us to update the the uh IT package on this command bus.

With that, we'll open up for questions.

All right, um so is there any questions on ordinance uh 1455 2025?

Yeah, Councilwoman Gray.

Yes, I uh could you go into more details about the command bus?

That was your question, too.

I don't know about a command business.

Do the chair to the to the councilman councilwoman.

Uh the rector or who commissioner motor vehicle makes it about the command bus.

So the the police department has a command bus which is utilized as a communications uh mobile communications unit uh during special events or during uh high volume, high uh traffic, uh communication traffic, they will utilize this bus to defer some of that traffic.

So the the communication bus is mobile during a uh uh special event like uh the feast of or or the feast or the any major league uh or major uh sporting events, the command bus will be dispatched to that area and handle all the radio traffic that's going on at that event to keep that radio traffic from going through the main dispatch center.

So it's basically a a a replica of the the communications that the police department's 911 communications unit.

Uh and it's it's if anything happens the involving communications, this bus could basically duplicate that communication.

All right, thank you, Councilwoman Gray.

There are any other questions on ordinance 1455?

Councilman Harsh.

Chair, I'd like to uh propose two amendments.

Um the first amendment is at the end of section two, insert the following sentence.

The directors of public works and/or public safety shall provide written notice to the clerk of council whenever any purchase is made through the cooperative process, comma, which shall which notice shall include the details of such cooperative purchases.

And the second amendment, uh Mr.

Chair, is that in section three, after authorized, insert quote, in the estimated amount of 320,000, end quote.

All right, is there any um so Councilman Harse has an amendment uh on the floor?

Is there a second?

Councilman Casey seconds it.

Uh is there any discussion?

All right, director.

All right, you have any questions on the amendment?

No, we're we're fine.

All right, all in favor of the amendment say aye.

Aye.

All opposed?

The ayes have it.

So ordinance number 1455 2025 as amended is approved.

Please sign it.

All right, thank you, Commissioner.

All right, um, can we bring up streets now?

All right, Commissioner, I want to um thank you for your patience.

All right, director, commissioner.

We uh we want the committee wants to uh asked a couple questions about the salt and um the the uh storm uh preparedness and how everything went on the on the storm, lessons learned, anything we need to know about the storm.

All right, um director, you want to start off?

Um just uh very quickly, probably the main thing with the the storm itself was probably the most accumulation we've had at one time in a while.

But I will say that um we had folks working 24-7, and we actually implicit we uh deployed waste collection trucks, as you know, we put the pause on the waste collection trucks.

We had folks from traffic engineering, we have folks from uh the where else did we use uh waste collection traffic engineering director?

Yeah, well, we use uh probably about a hundred or so trucks uh out in the street 24-7 throughout that event.

Uh the one thing that I will say about when we talk about salt is uh, and I know there's been a lot of conversation, a lot of talk about what happened with salt, but I will tell you this.

Um after the Thanksgiving event is uh a snow event that we had, I got contacted by two uh municipalities that they ran out of salt and they wanted to know hey, we we don't have salt.

Can you get salt to us?

Um we we did help one at first because we thought, you know, well, they just I don't know, maybe they don't have a contract.

But as we got further into um the next event, we began to see actually after the after the Thanksgiving event, we began to see that our our deliveries of salt were um actually a lot less than what they were.

Typically, we'd probably get about a thousand or so tons of salt, probably somewhere in that neighborhood per day when we make our orders.

They were getting they went down into maybe a hundred or two hundred.

Um we did reach out uh to Cargill, we reached out to ODOT as well.

ODOT holds this salt contract, it's not a contract that the city of Cleveland holds, it's a contract that is a cooperative contract held by um the Ohio Department of Transportation.

We reached out to them to understand what was happening.

We reached out to Cargo to understand what was happening.

We were never told uh by Cargill that there was a shortage, but uh during that same time I I talked about five other municipalities, Brook Park, Cleveland Heights, Euclid.

Um they also I think Cleveland Heights ran out of salt, and you may have seen that uh shaker as well.

They they were all out of salt or either a pretty uh very, very low levels.

Um we reached out the cargo, they promised us that they would deliver.

They have been delivering, it's just not the amount of salt that we're typically used to.

We started the season off with all of our domes full.

Uh the act we were at 100% capacity, and we started that process in August.

Um by the again, but by the time and typically what we do after an event, we order salt and we fill up our domes.

That is what we've done for numerous years.

That's not something that is new.

Um we had no, there was no indication that there's a shortage, there's no indication of anything happening from cargo.

Our thought was that we will order salt as needed.

Um, but that uh over the last few weeks we talked with the government affairs group at Cargo, and they promised us that they would deliver salt.

Again, they are delivering salt, but it's not at the levels that we have put our placed our orders in.

Um I think that is the big picture.

So our response to that was to salt, uh, make sure that we're salting the main roads, make sure that we salt the hills, the dangerous intersections, areas like schools and hospitals.

And we spause we salt space, uh, we spot salt as necessary.

For instance, we've gotten calls about leaks where there's ice.

We have to salt in those areas.

When there are calls about uh certain places that they that we I've gotten several calls from some of you here at the table, but about hey, we need some salt here.

We use that very sparingly, but today our salt is at about 7,000 tons.

If to put that in perspective, and I I'll let the commissioner talk a little bit more about the details of it, but to put that in perspective, we use about if we salt the entire city, we'll use anywhere from four to seven thousand tons of salt.

So if we were to use all of our salt to salt the entire city and we continue to get the deliveries at the rate we're getting, we don't believe we'd have enough salt for our next event.

We believe that it was the best decision to limit the amount of salt that we use throughout the city.

Uh so today we are still again we get deliveries from cargo, but it is not at the level we asked for.

Our the law department is looking at options of what we can do uh with this uh in this scenario.

But now as we sit right here today, our goal is to keep the city safe.

We have plowed, I think about four times in the residentials.

At least three times.

Three times in the residential.

So our goal is to keep plowing to keep uh and if we get calls, we go back.

Uh and if we have another, we've done that.

You know, Randy has been up pretty, I don't know if he's slept at all since this has happened, but he's been taking calls and then fielding emails and getting the crews out there.

When we get calls, we respond.

Yeah, it's not been perfect, but we have been responsive.

Uh we will continue to be responsive until we believe we're out of the woods.

But we do, I don't believe by any shape or form that we are out of the woods with the salt.

We're still trying to find ways, create a ways to be able to address.

We are using more brine, more additives to um the uh the salt and to the brine to be able to be more effective.

But um that is where we sit today.

I'm gonna turn it over to the commissioner and let him do a little bit of speak a little bit about what's going on, how he's handling the uh thank you, Director.

Mr.

Chairman to the council.

First, let me introduce myself.

I'm Randall Scott.

I am the streets commissioner for the City of Cleveland Department of Public Works.

I didn't ask for the benefit of the new council.

Uh most of the uh other members know me.

Um I just want to say that I've you know talked to each one of you either through email or in person over the last couple of weeks, and um hopefully we've been responsive to your needs.

Uh as the director said, I cannot speak for cargill salt in terms of a salt shortage.

I believe there's plenty of salt in the mind.

The problem is delivery.

We have not been getting our deliveries the way we're accustomed to.

And that's very clear, and it's not only a Cleveland problem, but it's a regional issue.

So we put our orders in, we've uh increased our budget for salt to four million dollars.

We've ordered 70,000 tons of salt through the state cooperative bidding process.

To date, we've only received a portion of that, somewhere around 50,000 tons.

So uh out of 70,000 tons we received 50, we're still awaiting another 18, 17,000 to 18,000 tons to be delivered.

That plus what we have in our inventory, which is now 7,000 tons, that would fill us completely up again, and we would be able to provide normal service.

Until we get to that point, we are going to have to adopt a strategy, a sensible salting strategy, strategy.

I'm sorry, that says do the main streets first, exclusively, plow the residential streets, spot salt them where you need it, particularly in hills, dangerous intersections.

That's what we're doing.

And that's called sensible salting when you're in a situation like we are today.

Okay, um director to the commissioner.

Um I got a question right off the bat.

Is that um are we permitted to send our trucks to the locations to um transport salt back if that's a problem with um transporting salt to us?

If we put in an order, could we send some of our trucks to get salt?

Is that is that doable, Commissioner?

I have not had that conversation.

We have not done that in the past.

I don't know even if the contract will allow for that.

But yet and still, once you get down there, the capacity and the amount that we'll be able to get will be no different or less.

Okay, because we'd be stuck in the same line with the rest of the trucks that are down there.

Okay.

Okay.

All right.

All right, and I'm gonna go to the committee.

Um let me start off with the um star of let me start off with counseling.

So council lady Hudson.

Thank you, Mr.

Chair.

Um through the chair, um to the commissioner.

Uh first I want to commend you and your team for your responsiveness and your hard work.

It's been a tough winter, and um I I really appreciate everything that you've been doing to keep our residents safe on these streets.

Um and your and the innovative um use of garbage trucks is um yeah, I know residents really appreciated that and and so did I.

Um so my question is with the you know, with the uh lack of availability of salt, have you um explored or considered alternatives to salt uh for de-icing the roads?

Mr.

Chairman to the councilman, we are using uh salt brine as an anti-icer.

Uh we're using beet heat, which is a organically uh environmentally friendly product that's also used for de-icing and anti-icing.

Uh we have our all of our tanks are full, and we can produce our own salt, Brian, but we have to purchase the B heat.

So right now, currently all of our tanks are are relatively uh our salt brine tanks, we can fill it at will.

And uh the Bryan tanks are I would say a little about three quarters of capacity we've been using it.

We we're ordering some more as we speak.

Um those are the two additives so far.

We're s we I was mentioning to the director today.

We're gonna also look at some uh possibility of purchasing some calcium chloride as well.

So through through the chair to the to the council member, um those additives that we use.

Um we we we have the beat heat, um once you use like the calcium and the magnesium yeah, there's a balance now about the corrosiveness to the streets.

So that's why we have not we've never had to go that far because we've always had salt.

And so in order to preserve our streets, we want to make sure that we keep you know the balance of what kind of chemicals we use.

So now we're at we are at the point where we are using more of the B he's actually gonna order more of it because we've been applying it.

Bryan works a lot better before snow.

Um so the the pre-application is a lot more effective uh than when you're trying to use it afterwards.

Um because the thought is that Bryant is 23% salt, right?

So um, but we are experimenting with all the all the things that we can think of to try to get the city back and running until we're back in a place where our salt levels are are where we can get to the neighborhoods.

Thank you.

All right, thank you, Councilwoman.

Um next I'm gonna go to Councilman uh Shaw.

Thank you.

Uh once again to the directors and commissioner, thank you for being here and your time.

I appreciate I know you've been at hard at work.

Um and you know, I'm new here.

I just wanted to understand briefly before we get started, uh, how long you've been doing this.

So you know, when I ask my questions, I want to make sure.

I know it's a lot longer than three weeks, which is how long I've been here, so I'll appreciate your patience.

Uh Mr.

Chairman of the Councilman, the this this winter actually started earlier than most winters.

If you recall, Thanksgiving Day, we had the ice storm, and it's been snowing constantly since Thanksgiving.

Uh to through the chair to the commissioner, I wanted to clarify uh I wanted to understand how long you've been in this position.

Sorry.

Personally, uh councilman, my 46th year, and I've been over 30 years as commissioner of streets.

Wow.

Uh through the chair to the councilman, I have been with the city since 2000.

I've been the director, the director since November of last year, but before that I was the assistant director since 2022.

Okay.

Through the chair, um, thank you.

And like I said, I'm gonna be learning a lot, and for me, it's like I said, I've been here three weeks, so um I I want to make sure I have the proper lay of the land.

Um, you know, for me, I've I've been pretty frustrated in line with our residents.

Um we've got a lot of concerned calls about the salt issue, and I understand you've been on it.

We've been trying to understand and initially when we got the um email updates um from Director Laird about our issues, um, we were relaying this information, and for me, I I believe this was something that we should be holding Cargill responsible for.

And this is what that's the line of thinking that I've been following on and trying to get more information from cargo.

Um we've gone through the press back and forth for the last week.

Um, so you know, I I do want to um get cargo representatives here at some point as well to understand what are these issues that's going on on their end.

Um but before we do that, I want to make sure we have our affairs in order and we understand what we've been doing.

Um Director Laird, you mentioned at the beginning of our season, we started out with full domes.

Can you what what's our capacity when we're at full?

Yeah, so through the chair to the council about 25,000 tons.

And you were indicating through the chair at the beginning of our season we had 25,000 tons, right?

Full domes.

To the chair and the council, that's correct.

Okay.

And that makes sense, then I based on what the contract understanding was.

It sounds like we have the ability to make placements, because once again, even if we we can't, we don't have the capacity to hold 70,000 tons, even if Cargill delivered all 70,000 at the beginning of the season.

So it's as needed basis, and we expect these deliveries.

Is that right?

Yeah, through the chair to the to the council member, that's correct.

Also, the Cargill has a seven-day seven calendar day.

Um that there's they are to deliver salt by.

Yeah, I I wanted to understand that a little more.

If you could explain through the chair, uh Director Laird, once we order additional supplies, they have seven days to deliver that amount after we order.

Is that right?

Through the chair to the councilman, that's correct.

I see.

And um, are you aware of what our um options are if they do not supply that within the seven days?

I know you said the law department is looking into it, and we'll get the legal details from them, but just wanted to understand that.

This is, you know, you know, with every contractor is always there's kind of give and take, right?

So in the past, you know, we've had delayed deliveries, but nothing like this.

So it's it's this is new for us.

So that's why I just really think it probably makes the most sense for our legal group to work with it.

I I will say this.

You know, Cargill is probably the biggest player with salt.

We've dealt with the other players.

I think there are two other players, and the the size of that uh other players is nowhere near the size of Cargo.

So my hope is that we can have some kind of uh we can work this out with this group uh because we we have to partner with them down the road.

Um so again, yes, we should take action.

We need to do something, but how far we go, it really does depend on, you know, do you want to cut off your nose and spite your face kind of thing?

And and that's kind of where we are with this.

We want to make sure that we still have a partner that we can get our salt from.

Um we've we've dealt with, I think the others, and it was is nowhere we actually did not have a good relationship with one of the other vendors.

So we had to actually cancel that and go back to Cargo.

So again, um uh we do believe there needs to be something that needs to happen.

That's why a lot of departments looking into it.

But I I I'm really not the person to say how that should look or what that should look like.

Okay.

I I appreciate that, Director Laird.

Uh, through the chair.

I wonder to understand uh what how much is our portion of the contract with Cargo where I know it's through the Department of Transportation, uh, but I wanted to understand the numbers for our portion of it.

Do you know?

Chairman to the councilman, I I don't know the act exact percentage, but I know that Odot is probably their largest customer on that contract, and we're probably number two.

Then too, also to the chair to the council member to keep in mind this is for the entire state.

Uh we have we are in a region, kind of the counties of the region, and so there if you if there's a map that shows each region has a certain amount.

So as far as a percentage of the entire contract, I you know, there's Columbus and there's also Cincinnati as well.

So it's it's kind of difficult to say what is the percentage of the entire contract.

We can say that we are a big player for sure, but we just don't know what percentage that is to the chair.

Yeah.

Uh and through the chair, you know, I I think what you said was exactly the point, right?

I think Department of Transportation, I'm certain is probably their number one uh contractual.

And um while I I hear the concerns about you know how far do we want to ask for accountability.

Um I think it's important to at least understand what went wrong with on their end and see how we can avoid or set up a process to avoid this in the future.

Um and we do have, you know, hopefully some um means to kind of do some stuff at the state level as well, because once again, this is a lease that Cargill has from the state of Ohio, is my understanding, and we've been doing digging deeper into this.

And at the end of the day, the salt mine is a public asset.

Cargill enjoys a lease for a 99-year lease.

Um I don't know how deep they are into it.

But to me, those these are all data points that we as the public officials and elected officials should be recording so that when at times come to you know renew their lease or what other options we have, we can get a full uh accurate accounting of how Cargill has been operating this public asset.

Um those are the kind of interests of where we want to have um and in the past I want to put put it on the record that cargo has been, you know, um dang to actually it was um commit uh Governor Devine when he was the attorney general, they s we sued the state of Ohio sued Cargo and Morton for antitrust activities um for price uh setting across the state.

And for me, it's once again making sure that these big corporations, we know that they're not here to look out for the people.

They're here to make money.

It's our job to make sure that we look out for the people, and I know you've been doing that, so we want to make sure that we do that on our side of the aisle as well.

Um is ordering from a different um contractor an option, or are we locked into only ordering through cargill?

Our our our ability to buy salt is exclusive to the state contract at this time through Cargill.

I see.

Thank you, uh Commissioner Scott.

So that means then like more we couldn't go to Morton Salt, even if they had some salt there because we're locked into this.

Well, through the through the chair to the the council member, I think it's probably fair to say that we have to as long as we have to purchase the amount of tonnage through this contract.

Now, I don't think anything bars us, again, I'm not a lawyer, but I don't think anything bars us from going to another source as long as we fulfill the what we have to do with this.

So we have 70,000 tons.

We purchase the 70,000 tons, and then I think if we are able if we go to another source, I don't think anything stops us from that.

But again, I'm not an attorney.

I think that's why our law department's looking deeper into it.

But that's my thought about it.

And to my colleagues on the committee, I I I you know, we've talked a little bit about this, and I definitely I think would encourage us to think about which uh stakeholders do we want to bring back to the table here to get more information about where this broke down, and I think that certainly includes the law department along with representatives from Cargill and um ODOT.

Um I wanted to understand the kind of the history of our relationship with Cargo.

Um I know Commissioner Scott, you've been here quite some time.

Are you aware of any I know Director Laird said nothing to this level has happened, but have we had any other issues with Cargill in the time that you've been here?

Mr.

Chairman, I've been here long enough to see the assault company change ownership uh maybe two or three times.

Over the years, um there has been shortages, there has been rationing.

Uh, but normally when that we get to that point, we're notified well in advance that we that the mine would be rationing for whatever reason that is.

Um I do know that it's in their best interest to create as many above ground stockpiles as necessary during the summer.

And once you deplete your above ground capacity, or they complete their above uh ground uh storage capacity, and you have to come directly from the mine, that limits how much you can get out per day because it actually has to come from underneath the lake and then be processed and then loaded in the trucks.

When you have above ground capacity and enough tonnage, you can satisfy your customer needs a lot better.

So I think that's a question for them, and that's a question that uh I have to I I like to ask as well.

Thank you.

That that makes sense.

I wanted to understand uh once again uh to Director Laird through the chair, uh how how far ahead are we forecasting our need for additional salt.

Um I I know we got some information about the time of our orders, and I just wanted to understand kind of what's been going on in the background of how far ahead are we forecasting the need for salt.

Mr.

Chairman to the councilman, we based on our weather forecast and based on our historical knowledge, we've learned to place our orders frequently.

Uh no sooner than we place one order and it begins to get fulfilled, we place another one probably within another week.

So in this particular case, because Ken we saw it coming, we saw the weather coming.

We ordered week probably four successive weeks in a row, or maybe even five, uh, to make sure that our orders were at the forefront of the delivery system to make sure that uh we could get our capacity in and not have to wait in line on a first order first come basis.

So we kept putting in successive orders to protect ourselves against that.

However, that did not change their delivery pattern.

So through the chair to the council members well, um the 70,000 tons begin, it's it's the beginning of our forecast, if you will.

Uh we've had in the past, we've had lighter winners.

We didn't really need 70,000 tons for those lighter winners.

Um, but uh based on what we saw last year, a lot of freeze thaw, we decided to to place a large order in our mind of 70,000 is a large order.

Again, we've we've received about 51,000 tons to date.

We are still waiting, as the the commissioner said about for about the 19 or 8, 18 or 19,000 tons to be delivered.

We can order an additional 7,000 over the 70,000, plus or minus, that's kind of how it works.

So part of our forecast was we knew that the winter was gonna be a little tougher, so we did order more.

But the the issue is uh if our plan if we were to able to execute our plan, we still we would have enough to be able to do all the things that you know we've done in the past.

It's just that the delivery hasn't met that forecast.

Thank you.

And um, could you just explain what were the dates and the amount that we ordered for the last three orders?

Uh I do I think you have the sheet in front of you.

I don't have it in front of me.

I was just going to um through the chair.

I can pass I can hear this to you if you wanted to, if that would be easier for you, just hand it to you.

Sure, if that works.

Yeah.

Oh, thank you.

Um, through the chair to Director Laird, I see the um thank you for the sheet.

I see on January 23rd, we place an order for 11,500 tons.

And I'm trying to understand of that that's considerably larger than the ones right before.

Is that just based on did we see at that point?

Through through the chair to the council member, we are still waiting for outstanding amounts during that time.

So you'll see that the orders are smaller because we're still we're there are still outstanding amounts.

So our thought is order enough to fill up the domes.

And as you get lower, then when you get to this point, we're at a critical point.

And so that's why you get the 11,000 order.

Thank you.

I I yield my time.

Thank you, Commissioner.

All right, okay, thank you, Council.

Councilman Shaw.

Um, I'm gonna go to Councilman uh Richard Star.

Thank you, Chair.

Um, and public works team director as well as Commissioner Scott.

Um, just for your being change agents, because sometimes we we've what I've talked about from the snow this last couple of weeks with residents is it's been some years, I think about five or six years since we had um major snowfall in the city.

So we started to scale back a little bit because of those different costs, but we always have a contingency plan to have close to be able to get almost 70,000 tons each year if need be.

Um, just for a point of clarification, I know Councilman Shaw did a great job asking different questions to understand um from the standpoint of the salt shortage, it was mainly be through between a contract with uh um third party who gets to salt.

Where do they actually, through the chair, um recover salt from this company that we work with through the chair?

Uh Mr.

Chairman to the councilman, this is again bid cooperatively with the state of Ohio.

Okay.

Uh and uh and surrounding communities, we bid as a as a group.

Uh the price is then published in somewhere around July per ton price is published, and then we place our orders.

We're allowed to place orders at that point.

Uh our goal is to fill up at the beginning of the season, as we did, and then to order as needed beyond that.

Um again, uh the I I don't want to use keep using the word salt shortage.

Okay.

I don't know that there is a shortage in the mine.

There's no shortage in the mine.

All right.

Okay.

You know, I was coming next.

But there is an issue with delivery.

Okay.

There is an issue with mining, processing, loading, and delivery.

And that's where I think everybody is has a concern, not just Cleveland.

Okay, but Cleveland and all the other customers on that state contract.

So again, we've been contacted by other municipalities for assistance.

We've also reached out ourselves for assistance.

Odot was gracious enough to give us about 700 tons.

Uh that's but even they were short.

They were beyond their 50% middle of the winter capacity.

So everybody right now is again being very conservative with their salt usage and being very smart about how they use their salt.

Again, sensible smart salting is very important.

And when you have to pick and choose uh which poison is gonna kill you, you gotta take the one that you know you can last the longest.

And I would suggest that you know, taking care of our main streets, our high speed areas are most important.

Our residentials are equally important, but I think we can keep them safely plowed, and that's what we've been doing.

Okay, thank you.

And through the through the chair, I definitely will ask uh within this coalition that we have that consists of other different cities in Cuyahoga County, where we contract together to all be able to purchase salt.

Um, given the circumstances that we just experienced, um, are we looking to think or be more proactive and thinking about a secondary um strategy?

So in the near future, if our coalition is not getting sought, is there other ways for us to um get sought ourselves?

Because like I I heard through the through the chair to the commissioner, one of the main issues was just actually getting the sort here, whether it's um transportation, rather it's delays, rather it's other orders may be in front of us.

So many different things that can factor.

Is there a way that we could subcontract in an emergency effort if we notice that hey, we may have this much salt in our um warehouse but or in our inventory, but that we may expect we need to double it up, but we haven't been able to get it due to whatever foreseen circumstances.

So through the chair, is that something we look into explore?

Um, different options in case something like this happens in the near future.

Yep, it's Mr.

Chairman to the chairman to the uh council.

Let's let me be real clear about one thing.

There's only three bidders in this region that would be Cargill, uh Compass Salt, which is technically in Canada, and they ship their salt across the lake during the summer months.

Obviously, they couldn't do it right now if we wanted to.

Yeah.

Uh and then there's Morton Salt, which is in Paynesville.

Um Morton's is much smaller.

Uh a much smaller operation, even though they're nationally known.

This is a much smaller mine here, and we've had some difficulties in the past with Morton to the point where we had to switch and go back to Cargill midseason.

So I would just be cautionary in that regard.

Secondly, um, the thing that I think we can do, there always is something you can do, and I think there's something we should do is look at increasing our capacity, our storage capacity here in Cleveland uh with coverage salt.

And that would be to, you know, right now we don't have the domes to do that.

We should maybe look at purchasing or building some more domes, or maybe uh picking the extra expenditure of uh finding a location to put salt and cover it.

But I think the increasing our above ground capacity based on what we've learned this year would be probably be in our best interest.

Thank you.

And I that is something that I definitely wanted to see, just because like you said, the last I roughly say between the last five or six years, um, we haven't had these majors snowstorms, ice storms.

It's been in mild, mile winters, but today it came back to the um this year came back to the original Cleveland.

Um, I guess global warming is changing again.

But uh one of the things that is very important for me uh when we're dealing with this salt, I mean not a salt shortage, but just dealing with snow, is as I was going out in the neighborhood, looking at different areas, and then obviously dealing with uh potential school closing and then potential school openings.

One of the things I really was thinking of as I drove around was noticing sidewalk.

So when we're dealing with from a public work standpoint, what is actual who are actual actually responsible for different sidewalks?

Prime example, it was days that some of us like, well, CMSD close, then they open one day, and then we say how kids is walking and they're not walking on the sidewalk because the sidewalk isn't plowed, so they actually is walking in the streets.

So uh one of the things that I always notice in the neighborhood is less individuals are shoveling um the sidewalk, or who will be actually responsible for the sidewalk clearing through the chair?

Through through the chair to the council member, the the property owner is responsible for sidewalks.

Uh yeah.

So who, yeah, whoever owns that property that they're that's the one who is responsible for clearing the sidewalks.

So therefore, if we're in a neighborhood where it's all houses, the whole street get done by their sidewalk if by the property owner.

Through the chair to the council, that's correct.

So if a property owner is a senior who can't um shovel their sidewalk, how do we get that sidewalk shoveled or what takes yeah, through the chair to the council member?

Um I don't want to speak for Director McMirror.

I know she has a program where she does work with seniors.

I don't, yes, no, um, yeah, the snow heroes.

Yes.

There's also another program she works with as well.

So um the chore program.

So they don't do sidewalks.

Yeah.

But so that that's why I would say I'm I'm hesitant to say exactly.

I will tell you this.

I'm one of the snow heroes, so I go out and I do shovel some of the senior sidewalks.

So I know the program is effective, but um again, that to get more detail on how far that goes, that would be a question for Director McNavery.

Definitely, I was gonna definitely reach out to her because I know they do from the um entryway to be able to have access to and from your house, um, as well as some additional um support of seniors.

But then if we take it back a little further, if I'm just a uh millennial or I'm a Gen X who's a homeowner, and I have not shoveled my sidewalk.

Do we have anything in place from the city that can you know hold them accountable to make sure they are doing those different things?

Because what I notice is kids are walking in the street because they can't walk on the sidewalk, and therefore it's it becomes a safety hazard for a driver, the pedestrians as well, because they can't walk in all that snow.

So, do we have anything from a legal standpoint to make sure property owners are doing the best to clear the sidewalk when it comes to snow to the chair?

Yeah, through the chair too.

The council member, I do believe that there's ordinance on the books.

I'm just not 100% sure where and what it says, but um uh no from if we can definitely work with staff to look that up just to so we can revisit that.

Um, chairman, because I would like to see, because what happens is you know, I represent different parts of the city.

Um, I know we have a different program with the work that downtown Cleveland Lions do, they do a lot of the shovel removals in their district and that they cover as a as an organization, but then when I go into different parts of the city and different neighborhoods, they're not shoveling.

They it becomes, you know, it just be like night and day and trying to figure out how we can get some collaborations or some coordinations and some accountability to make sure sidewalks getting covered.

And what I mean by that is I reached out to CMHA.

I called Mr.

Patterson when I rode through and I seen some of his sidewalks.

I said, Mr.

Patterson, I remember when I was a kid, these sidewalks were shoveled.

Now we're just doing the outskirts, and they got a turmoil through their different salt and the snow, um, in order to try to get to the area that you shovel.

I said that is that's working backwards.

So I'm just trying to just get clarification on that.

That was something that was on my mind, and I definitely wanted to ask.

And then I know staff is going to work with you all to be able to get that um information to me as well as to the council.

And then one of the last things that I definitely would like to talk about is just communication.

And I believe you um director Laird as well as Frank Williams was here.

Y'all do a great job sending emails, keeping us informed.

If we need anything, we always can call you as well as Commissioner Scott to get more clarification, rather it's seven o'clock at night, nine o'clock at night as well, which is very good on your on your leadership.

But one of the things that I believe we have now figured out is um the communication for parking park bands, but also communication for residents just to understand, even if their street is not one that has a sign that says that they can't illegally can't park on the street due to the weather.

Um, because what happened is running residence area where I have a lot of homeowners at.

Um when you come around the roundabout, you got cars parking right in the front, and then next you know they get buried in, and then next you know, everyone calling, why they bury me in, why we bury in?

But we know we've seen a park man, but that area is not technically an area that describes, so therefore, when the pile trucks come down the street, right?

They only get you only creating one-lane access because all these cars are on the street.

So is there ways that we can explore a communication system to make sure those type of areas are informed?

They're like, hey, the snowstorm is coming.

Pull in your driveway because you do have a driveway, or one of the things I notice is some of their driveways is behind their house on the Black Alley Street, and so they just park in the front.

So therefore you can't go around the roundabout.

And then, you know, Miss Ms.

Caldwell, who homeowner, association president, mentioned it to me, and I went through and I said I could see what she's talking about.

Is there a way that we can um create some type of system to communicate that to residents in those type of areas of the need to not park on the street because of the snow through the chair?

So through the chair to the council member, yeah, and I I agree that is something that came up a lot.

Um I know with the parking band, there are specific streets that you know, to your point, there's some streets that just aren't on the band, but we've got to plow.

So I I am interested in working with with this side of the table with council to figure out because I think there it may have to be some grassroots kind of communication happening as well as some communication from our side.

I do think it has to be uh kind of a two-way street, but I am open to figuring out what that could be.

Um and it may it may, I don't know if it's word specific or or if it could be more general, but I uh on my side of the table, I am open to figuring that out.

I know our comms group, the mayor's con group will also be um helpful with that as well.

Thank you, and I believe that would be really good.

Can you explain or give a number of how many streets are actually in the city of Cleveland?

Because a lot of folks don't understand how many streets we have to cover.

Um how many streets do we have in the city of Cleveland through the chair?

The city of Cleveland, Mr.

Chairman to the councilman has about 10,000 and 60 streets.

Um roughly 3,000 to 4,000 are Maine and secondary mains.

The other six to seven thousand streets are residential.

And then we service them every time it snows.

And to kind of put that in perspective, we uh our crews over the last storm uh used over 22,000 or 2100 man hours of work, and they plowed over 26,000 miles, and that's not counting the third time that we went through the residentials.

So uh they've been working around the clock, and I'm very proud of the work that they've done.

And uh and I look forward to finishing the winter very strongly.

Yes, and so I think that was really great point that I definitely wanted to highlight, because a lot of people do not understand or do not know that we have over 10,000 streets in the city of Cleveland.

And then we have so many man hours where we have staff working around the clock.

We also use other departments, trucks to be able to get snow plow, where we're putting that on top of their trucks just to be able to try to make it uh maintainable.

But one of the things we also also have to do is as residents make sure if we can get off our cars off the street, we get them into our driveway.

And then some houses we don't, some houses we don't have that um luxury.

But thinking about how we can be able to target that area where we can let residents know, like around this time period, the trucks is going to be coming if you could move your car so they can hit the street.

So there's different things.

Um I would like to explore offline to be able to figure out how do we correct this um this system, and also how we can explore different other options.

And I and I will say thank thank you, public works um for all the work that you do.

Thank you to your staff.

Um without them, we would not have been able to get through the snowstorm.

So I yield chair.

All right, thank you, Councilman Star.

Uh I want to remind the members that we do have a meeting uh pending right now.

So uh can we uh wrap it up?

Councilman uh Chris Harsh.

Yeah, thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

My colleagues have asked all the essential questions.

I appreciate their their uh and inquisitiveness.

Um, since we uh know that 25,000 is the city's uh surface storage capacity.

Um, could uh through the chair to the chief the commissioner director um get us an estimated cost on building more of those storage uh containers.

I don't know if they're cheap or if they're expensive, but uh could you let us know at some point maybe that Brooke and the chairman know so we can at least be able to think about that.

Can I also add though through the chair?

It uh it may also be a place uh issue of like actually having the actual space, right?

Correct.

You know, it's one thing to say we can build, but we may not have the space to actually so it may be a the cost may include a piece of land where we can put this on it.

Understood, understood.

It was something I think we'd all like to be able to explore so that we can make maybe instead of staffing up to 25,000 at the beginning of the year we staff up to 50,000, and then we have you know four events, or I mean uh eight events in storage.

Yes, thanks.

All right, thank you, Councilman House.

Councilman uh Deborah Gray.

Uh on to councilman Hodge.

Uh uh Harsh, how many storage or dorms are in place in the city of Cleveland, you know, for the uses of salt.

Mrs.

Chairman to the council lady, we have uh seven storage facilities, and they're strategically placed throughout the city, and all of our uh six of our district service centers, and then we have one at the um Dobbins Service Center overall for 93rd.

And where is uh second question, Chair um to the commissioner?

You know, where is uh cargridge?

Is that the is that the place?

Um you pronounce it carget.

You know, where is that located?

Chair.

Cargo Salt is located down in the flats on uh on Whiskey Island.

Oh, whiskey island, okay.

Okay.

And one more, and one more miscellaneous.

When you I'm telling you something, you done an excellent job.

Thank you.

Thank you.

However, I've already uh I have uh you know, I have emailed you and uh um and the director as uh star stated, you know, some of the singers don't have the assistance, and I know that we have uh you know contact the McMahon about the snow heroes.

However, when the uh snow trucks, the plow comes down the streets, yeah, the snow is pushed to the apron.

Yep.

So if I can That is the biggest issue ever when you get those through the chair to the councilwoman when you get those, please send that to myself and to the commissioner.

We can try to figure some out for the driveways.

And this is not something that we can say for exactly the entire city.

But this is in a pinch we try to figure that out for the girl has stepped in and she figured it out just to say, you know, you guys have done an excellent job.

All right, thank you.

That's it.

All right, thank you, Councilwoman Gray.

All right, is there any other questions for the uh director and uh commissioner?

Seeing no further questions, I hear by adjourn this MSP committee to the next call of the chair.

Thank you, and the side of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the city of the colour.