We convene now our pre-council meeting or October 20th.

The subject of the majority of this meeting is around our council communication and meeting practices.

I want to think staff attached a lot to our agenda for this evening.

Um and I've just like to ground set part of this is just housekeeping.

You'll notice in the attachments and agenda from 2019 with some of the things that the council then uh were talking about wanting to check.

Uh some of them have been staff brought up.

For instance, Sheila pointing out that there's a thing in the ordinance about not smoking in the council chambers that we could probably just eliminate since we can't smoke indoors.

Um as well as other things about um periods of time for we allow for public comment that had never been, or at least we can't find words officially in there.

And so just kind of doing some of those housekeeping things.

So I'm gonna kick it over to the crying because I do have a few slides, but I I my my guess is that this is really a council conversation, and you're wanting us to kind of lead the discussion and excuse me, potentially any updates, but as well as point out what you guys are aware of that probably need to be updated.

Absolutely.

Yeah, that's that's exactly the the idea is for us to have a conversation.

There's a lot of things that council kind of talks about the questions about where we're at with this, what is this looking?

Uh it should be on.

Okay.

I'll just take it off.

Yeah, there it is.

So that we can actually talk into it.

And so it's just it will give us an opportunity to have that conversation.

I know there's so like the first thing if you want to pull up the first slide, it's about public comment, time limits, though stating war versus address, and some of these things we've talked about, but we're never really officially adopted as part of our ordinance.

And so I'll open up for conversation.

Okay, so the first one I have a note on is in relation to resolution, the resolution from 1981, the R1881.

Um this is the the discussion that we need to, we want to probably amend this one to just clarify the three minutes given to um people, and that they can request five minutes of their representing an organization um that is affected by the legislation.

Um any concerns or questions that council members have for that.

And my assumption is from this one to Carlin is that you all will take like kind of the feedback from here and then craft something to come back to council for either official adoption or as a report and then for official adoption.

And that would be the idea.

So some of the things are like this will be codified, so we'll bring ordinance back.

Some of the other one may just be practices, so we'll say here's our room in our practice.

One of the things we've we've been talking about is putting up putting together the council handbook.

So this stuff can be included in those council handbooks.

So new council members coming on board will have that same information.

Okay.

Yeah, Virgo, you had your hand up.

I noticed in the same one, um, it mentions that any person can be granted an additional five minutes on top of the three to five minutes uh by any council member.

We're talking about number four, right?

Um, I see that, yeah.

Is that something that we are is that something we are also cleaning up and cleaning out of the ordinance?

I think because how long have we been doing the current practice?

Are we aware of since the four or nine o'clock?

That's before there's 81.

I think that's a good one to clean up as well.

So you want to remove that?

I would say, yeah, because we I don't it hasn't been a practice at least filling.

Well and remove a comment.

Well, I just bring it to us.

Yeah.

We I haven't seen it, but I don't know that there might not be an occasion where we would want to hear more from someone, but I don't know that I would want to leave that up to one council member uh to do.

I think though if there could provision that would allow us to extend someone's time if the council approves it together.

General consensus for the idea, yeah, general consensus of council.

For instance, if it's like an applicant or in one of the things that we want to ask additional questions of something.

Yeah, I mean, I I just wouldn't want to leave the possibility.

I would want to leave the possibility open that if there's someone that we oh wait, I'd really like to hear more from you, then we provide that opportunity somehow.

All right, so adding to number four the piece about three minutes and then um five minutes on um uh affected organization by the thing, and then um person may be granted additional five minutes upon consensus of council.

It's like just say additional time or additional three to five minutes or something like that.

Additional time works um based uh uh on consensus of counselor.

It's a good one to clarify.

Uh and then also just as a note removing number eight, the spoken is not prohibited, and if the person should use cashtrays, we can take out unless you really remember this for I don't think we've got this.

Piece about three minutes and then um five minutes on um affected organization by the thing and then um person may be granted additional five minutes upon consensus of I would say we'll say additional time or additional three to five minutes or something like that additional time works um based uh on consensus of counselor it's good one clarify uh and then also just as a note removing number eight the spoking is not prohibited and if the person should use cash trace we can take out yes unless you really want to keep it in there too I don't think sorry um and then is this the one too where we have the word and versus address is that in this one number three number three um okay so one of the things that um you know we're she was able to this was originally to find people's names and how to spell them to make oh yeah no never mind oh she lives on no this is obviously from 81 oh right when we didn't have like to search the way we do now so that's what I'm saying no it is this now common practice to ask for a state for somebody's name and address understand now due to technology there's more concerns about that um and our minutes are now online videos are online from ever ago so people might be uncomfortable with their address being out there um but the original reason is so council knew where they were in proximity to whatever project or whatever um because if it's a thing on ash but this person was all this loop like how much more do you care about they care but how much do they comment about the specific project weigh compared to somebody who's on the street or vice versa so I think that was the logic in um require the name and address but so we could remove in that last sentence first state their name and word of residence for the record because I think the word has been useful that works yes and then this one has the SBCs isn't another one right that's the next one yeah anything else on 188 that um members of you need to review um yes because that this was the section also where we're talking about um when someone is ruled out of order um so there were conversations about would we consider um inappropriate language out of order and I'm also wondering if there is a point at which nonverbal communication becomes threatening or out of order um because right now it only lists spoken communication um you're talking about number five yes and then number seven kind of related number seven is about what happens if they're disrupting the meeting yes number five is kind of what leads to that yes yeah yeah did you check do you want to comment on that just a little word choice in seven um keep a police or his representative the gender improvement yeah there I'm assuming we're going towards yes um anyone have ideas related to what Vera or Vera did you have um ideas on what you would want to add to five or clarify number five so I believe one of the um suggestions in the report or at least things mentioned in the report included um inappropriate language or like cursing um I think that could be worth adding as something that could potentially rule someone out of order I think an occasional slip of the tongue would not immediately have someone out of order but if they are repeatedly cursing and intention seemingly intentionally cursing um that probably would get to that point and then the nonverbal piece I don't have a specific suggestion on I'm wondering what other people are thinking I was just gonna say that Barbara has listed that um for disrupting the council in the past I I think it saw her regular snapping booing hissing um yelling all of those things are reasons to but it's not just the speaker that's usually more the audience.

And those are verbally listed but not included in this we could do kind of a sub bullet under that one that includes those additional ones that I call it at the beginning of the meeting.

Just uh playing devil's advocate, what is gonna be the legal pushback on this regarding uh free speech, right?

Any thoughts?

Yeah, I mean I think we'll we'll need to work on the exact language, but I I think there's reasonable parameters that can be developed as far as decorum and then rogen you know interruptions that uh we can work within those parameters.

Okay.

So I think for decompleting this one, um probably wouldn't just be the full-on ordinance coming back to us if it seems like there might be some clarifications for language, but might come back as a report and then and then kind of that review before we then do any sort of adoption or coming back for a vote.

Anything else to 188?

There's a few in here, and I don't know, Shua, if you want to from your 2019 report, there's a lot of other potential ones, including um my question is always how much do you have to codify of these, you know, or how much of it this is just kind of our administrative practice.

Um so you know, part of the conversation that we've had as well is about um you know whether or not people have to sign up, like in public comment cards, if that becomes a thing we want to consider um the discussion too about um whether a speaker may yield their time to like I I don't know necessarily those need to be codified so much as they're just things to bring up to the point of question.

Um one is the fourth bullet here, um, the total amount of time, and this is one that people have messaged me about.

Uh and this is the total amount of time a single individual may engage in public comment at any particular meeting.

For example, New Orleans limits any speaker to a total of six minutes per council meeting and allows the speaker to divide up their time among the council agenda items.

Um I would just say on that one, I would think that we also should talk about our own limiting of speaking.

So that might lead into a whole other one.

Um, just to thought I had, but that's limiting my own speech, and maybe I don't have to talk as much.

Yeah, Nick.

Well, the the question that comes to mind that it did while I was reading its first time is uh think of what are we trying to accomplish with these.

I think we want to be sure that public has ample opportunity to speak or any given thing.

Um at the same time, we want to be sure that we're having efficient meetings that um that address the concerns we have in such a way that we're able to do that well.

You know, there's like this idea that we put an 11 o'clock for instance, somewhere in this one, so that we stop at 11 o'clock, we put a hard fast rule on that.

Um I'd be open to having that conversation.

It's the last bullet second page.

I'd be open to having that conversation.

Um, but what does that how does that impact the impact?

How's that impact the effectiveness of the meeting itself?

So I'm not saying one way or the other about that.

I'm just saying we need to keep the end in mind of what we're trying to do in addressing any of it, it's not all of them.

Yeah, I think like my thought in reading this from 2019.

My my thought was is that um, you know, if you have an end time, the idea is so that you know people can get home right and get to that in.

Also, you don't have people making decisions about the big things at midnight.

Um, my thought would be was that if we found ourselves bumping, if we were piloting that, we found ourselves bumping up to that, then we would have to decide is it the number of items on the agenda that we're limiting, is it the number of comments?

Is it our comments, like how long we allow ourselves to talk at the end, what would it be that would what is making us go past that time?

But yeah, I wouldn't want to introduce a time limit before we were also like what's the end goal and it to me it was to be an efficient use of our time, um, but we still want to have obviously a public engagement.

Yeah, Al I would very much not want to limit the number of times the public can step up to speak.

I would at least not at this time.

Um we've had even recently, we've had people who had expertise in more than one area, um, or um had expertise that applied to multiple things on the agenda and spoke on multiple items, um in a way that enhanced my understanding.

Um I don't want to limit that unnecessarily.

Um I think that if we are being proactive with our three minutes, then that really doesn't seem to pile up as much as you would think to me.

Betsy, did you ever hear that?

Yeah, I just wanted to point out that these are business meetings also.

So we do want to hear from the from citizens, but we also need to make sure we get the business done that we need to do.

Yeah, um just to say, I think with the potential established adjournment time, I am all for shorter meetings.

I think in the in the reality of it, I don't know that we would be able to accomplish our work unless they became shorter, more frequent meetings.

I don't know that we can cut our time and keep our current schedule and continue to get everything passed that we need to get passed.

Um so I think that if we open up that conversation of shorter meetings, which I would be all for, we would also need to talk about us meeting more regularly.

Yeah, and I'll point out this is part of the conversation, especially as we get into the virtual meeting that has that more flexibility with it.

Um, you know, in the last three years, our meetings have I think been shorter, but it's been as the result of having more work sessions, so more of that.

And so, because the idea is you can get a lot more of those questions done, go back into your ward, ask clarifying with your community members, and then when you come to vote, you know what I mean?

You've had more conversations, and that's the intent behind that.

Yeah, done.

To your point, I was gonna ask if my please you can take it out, it might come easier, or to your point.

Is anyone taking the time to determine what is currently our average adjournment over say the last six months to a year?

No, I don't I know you may not have it if you don't have it off top of your head, that's fine because this is we're not settling anything tonight.

I did something about a year ago to kind of I did something about a year ago, um, but off the top of my head I couldn't tell you, um, where I kind of showed the times that on the longer ones, it tended to be because of a big topic item, like one or two items just taking up majority of the time.

So the only thing I can suggest if that is something like, and you can't control like you have no knowledge, at least that right now, we have no knowledge of how many people are gonna come to speak or whatever.

If you guys think that's a problem, one way to limit the number of speakers and potentially is that comment card, but that is extra work, like you've sign up in advance to speak.

I'm not sure if you want to do that, um, because sometimes we do have valid comments from somebody who just happens to be in the meeting for something else and was like, Oh, I didn't plan on talking about this, but but I mean it to me, it was big big like something that was controversial or something, you know.

Right, but I mean, we generally have an idea what those are that we can anticipate larger crowd.

So I did the analysis in January, but again, it's similar to to Sheila, some of those are big ones.

So um, from April 2022 to about January, I think is when I did this.

62 regular meetings.

Um 15 of those meetings were around the they were under three hours, um, 12 meetings were four hours, and six of those were five hours, but those also include like a budget work session, like that was that would be if we had like the budget longer ones.

So those are usually the the rare ones that we had, but also like the water treatment plant upgrade was one, the wabash station campaign was one that went long.

Um, so those are and I'm happy to share my analysis.

No, but that kind of gives us an idea, it sounds like the majority actually we're finishing before 11.

Oh, yeah, yeah.

Yeah, yeah, the majority is definitely a 10 o'clock, 10, 1030.

Yeah, thank you.

Betsy, did you have another follow-up to that?

No, I was just gonna say 10 or 230.

Uh, you know, certainly they've gotten shorter since I've been on council, but part of it is we've been able to address some of the issues that was in that.

We used to get a lot of comments about our homeless population and not having a place for them to stay and not being able, you know, it was really cold that we had no place for them.

So some of that I think we've listened to folks, and we've been able to with the Carlin's guidance to find ways to address some of those issues.

So that also is made the meeting shorter.

Yeah, yeah.

And I think the car, and I think the Carlin's also been trying to ensure like there's some things like name and zoning related, they're on a time schedule, you can't control that.

But when there is the ability to control timing, I think he tries to do that as well, also.

Um for 1881 as well.

Oh, yeah, sorry, Del.

I have one more.

Yes.

Uh on the 1881.

Uh, number one.

Public may comment testify on all ordinances of final passage at all public hearings before.

Is that the one where put into place the way we currently do things?

We have public comment on second read when we're getting ready to vote.

Part of any other part of the ordinances though, different ordinance.

Um, so the chart, I think it's the city charter that um allows or and let me find that it allows for all anybody to act, like you know, we have the consent agenda.

If somebody wants to speak on a topic, they can ask for that to be moved in.

Right.

No, my question is um final passage.

I interpret that to mean the second reading vote, yeah.

Okay, because that's when you're right potentially passive.

Yeah, and my question, and I may I made this in fact earlier today to the mayor.

Um there are other councils specifically, Springfield, that they actually do their public comment on first read.

That way, whatever questions are generated.

We have time to look into it rather than the 15 minutes between then and when we vote.

Um, so now if that's probably a bigger, larger discussion than for tonight.

So this just be aware of it.

I guess this is one we would have to change if we were to go that route.

And there were a couple of questions that need to be addressed.

So again, that's a larger discussion not for tonight, but just so we know what we would have to change if we change the way we conduct.

So do they not allow comment at the time they vote and they only allow it the first time?

That's where they get the majority of their comment again.

That's something I'd have to revisit.

Okay.

Um, the former mayor of Springfield gave a presentation at uh elected leaders training that the Missouri Municipal League puts on, and he mentioned that.

And uh I thought that's actually a good idea because again, many times questions come up, and it's like okay, I don't have time to look into it before I have to vote on this.

So this would then you know allow time.

Um, and then unless you know, unless there's something significant significantly changed because of that, then it would essentially that would be more of the consent agenda to go forward.

Yeah, thanks.

Just as an additional consideration to your suggestion here, um, I can think of a small handful of times um over the past few years where something came up um planning related um about shared easements, property rights um that could still be sorted out between neighboring uh property owners, um, and therefore it was tabled for that.

Um if we accepted our public comment, and of course I deferred to planning on that, but if we accepted our public comment at the first read, I wonder if we could prevent those kinds of tabling actions from coming up.

Um, because I don't think they're the best for anyone involved.

Yeah, Dun, can I ask if you want to see about following up to get some more questions answered on that one?

Sure, I'd be happy to.

Yeah, yeah, no, because I think that's a good point.

Um my assumption would be then is if anything happened, it would just happen the supplemental memo coming in with whatever sort of changes were as a result.

Harley, do you have any questions about that?

Or do you are you have you had that happen in any other cities you've worked in that have items that have two reads and they do public comment on the first read rather than the second or three reads, sorry.

Trying to think.

Um I have, but usually the agenda's a lot shorter and it's not as much on first read to so I know.

I was funny to follow the conversation about making meetings shorter and then open up everything.

Because then you'd have comp then you have comment on everything under first read versus just the old business public hearing stuff potentially, it's just potentially again this is the discussion figure tonight.

But if we're talking about signing up to speak, maybe first read public comment could be signed up only, or the other way around.

It could be open public comment the first reading, and then if they you know would like to speak on a second, the updated amendments that have to sign up, just throw it out ideas.

Yeah, like I'll follow up with Springfield on that.

I can think of several situations where the first read was a heads up that it was coming up to community members, too.

Um, and I can think of several situations where something came up and um local interest groups weren't prepared for it to be on the agenda until they heard it on first read.

Yeah, yeah.

I think there's an opportunity for us to kind of do some additional research, and we can kind of take a look and see.

We'll have we'll actually have one of our staff members kind of look at look at sprinkle as well and kind of get an example of what's going on at their meetings.

We can bring that back as part of the report.

Okay, thank you.

All right, moving on to resolution 1014A.

Uh, this I mean there's a couple cleanup comments.

One removing the fax number requests that they have because that's not the most efficient use, and usually we just get spam faxes, so maybe removing that number will help reduce those.

Is there any concern over removing the fax numbers that have for stocal comment?

Um, and then we can also add because we do the submission online or via email, we can add that piece to this.

Um, it doesn't have to be written, like doesn't have to be again written competition because that's how they do it now.

Um we'll see and then is this one this one we should also clarify um because we typically where is it?

We typically um allow for thank you.

So we typically allow I I at least I allow five minutes if you do schedule public comment, and this says three to five.

I'm gonna say we can just eliminate the three, two and just do the five because that's been the practice that I believe my predecessor also used and I don't think anyone has ever kind of limited how much for schedule public comment.

Now it kind of helps clean up because some people come up and they say I like to request that, and I'm like, so those sort of cleanups.

Is there any other changes to this one that we want to update?

Sounds pretty self-explanatory.

Okay, and then the next one is um on our oh related to appointments to boards and commissions.

Um this is one that we want to kind of clarify about how we have written down.

Um this is the one where clarifying, let me see which part it is number C for C.

Um, sorry, B.

So one of the things that we found um when Sheila did an analysis of people who apply to boards and commissions is that I think we went three years without anyone checking the newspaper box or someone's and then someone did write after we had done that analysis, but it was actually a reapplicant too, so I'm assuming they had multiple ways.

So I I do you want to speak to how much we spend on advertising?

Um, and I will say since we first did the analysis, there've been a few more, but I would say probably between five and seven at purposes at that box, and like she said, there was at least one reapplicant, if not more, and we spend between seven to eight thousand dollars a year to put it in the Sunday papers at the Tribune and the Missouri.

So it's in both papers now, and it's about seven to eight thousand dollars a year of the cost.

So it's up to you guys if you think that's still reaching people, or if um it's up to you on how you want to do that.

Other ways we do it, and something else that probably ought to be cleaned up is see the media advisors.

We actually do press releases.

There's a terminology difference between the two that um I think City or somebody else better explain that the advisories go to news outlets, whereas trust releases go to the public.

Um then we also do social media.

Um it's annual vacancies because of how early those news those um utility newsletters go out.

Um utility bills, so how early they go out, we can only put annual vacancies in there, but we do put like which boarding commission is coming up, look at our website.

Obviously, we put them on the website.

So those are ways we do it now.

Bill Canton, I don't know who's replacing him, and I don't know if he continued doing it, but I know at one point he was sending those out to uh the neighborhood associations, associations he had contact information for.

Um, so you know, there's other ways to get the word out, and other ways we've been doing it, but um, so that's just a question for you all as to in the future.

Do you want to continue putting it in the tribune and the Missouri and both?

We want to choose one, um, and things of that nature.

Yeah, okay.

So, what box or boxes are people checking when they say that they learned about that?

I hear it goes in different ways, but what where are people mostly finding it responding to your phone?

Uh well, if you look at their applications that's nice, we'll give you bring it up.

Um, let's see.

How did you where is it?

How did you hear about this?

Where's the bottom?

How you heard about the vacancy letter?

I mean three applicants.

Um how did you hear about the how did you hear about the vacancy currently serving?

How did you hear about it?

All right, this one has a lot of racers.

Well, I think rather than going through I'm going through each one.

Yeah, I if we could just go back and look and see, I think that would be helpful to know.

This is just one of the another one of those examples of how it's with all the different ways of communicating, it's just getting harder to communicate.

And the question is where are people looking for that information if they're looking for it at all, and how they're responding back, where in other words, which hopes are we most effective with right now?

So last year just at press release from cities, the press release from city email for subscribing, and this one was KBIA, which we would be as a result of sending out to news agencies, the existing ones that you're putting out there.

Yeah, other questions on this one.

Okay, yeah, I and I feel like we're hitting a lot more people, especially as a reminder to council members too, is that when Chile sends out that notification that ago is for us also to use our own to send it out since people even like you said they're busy trying to get out the information, yeah.

Okay.

Uh up next is our conversation around uh virtual virtual attendance is this yes.

Okay, so what questions do you have?

Um, do you guys have the guiding ones on this, or do you want us to lead this?

I don't know, Department or it's also might be a Becky law question, logistics.

Well, I I think though kind of the questions is no, how do we want to move forward?

I I know there's a lot of questions from council members about when can we, can we, what does that look like?

And so it's just having that general conversation.

I know Don shared what Springfield does, and no, it's it's sound and makes sense, and so it's just putting in the process.

Yeah, and I'll remind everyone that council does have the ability to do virtual participation in work sessions.

Um, in part it was because of some we don't have a vote in the C and D scene is not as strict uh for a work session or pre-council.

Similarly, because of the we don't often live stream those, um, because those are some of the logistical questions I know that staff will have.

Um, and I don't know if you want to speak to what was happening during COVID for virtual participation.

Um I can try.

Um, obviously, I'm not the group that handled it.

Um, one of the things that needs to be decided if council chooses to do virtual meetings, and this is to even do work sessions is to, but more so for regular meetings is to um if you choose to go in that direction, um, when would you notify staff kind of thing?

Because staff does need time to set everything up for that with COVID.

We kind of knew it was happening, so that it was setting up for that.

But if it's a non-COVID type situation, we'd need to decide how much in advance that notice would be.

But the setup, the C and B C and B scene set up at that time.

My recollection, Carol, Josh, or whoever's here wants to um mention something.

Um obviously the production of what's out there is different because you see all the people and the presentations a little bit smaller, so that's one thing.

Everybody was kind of separated out at the staff table was the city channel folks, um, and they would move the presentation along at that staff table.

Department heads would come up to the podium to speak.

Um, there was no laptop at the podium whereby a public member, you know, handled their own presentation.

The um city channel person would have access to it, put it up, and then move the slides over if needed.

That was kind of how that was handled.

I think the city channel also would uh turn on phenon the volume of the person that's um virtually that was virtually participating at the mayor's um, you know, and the mayor wanted or could acknowledge them and stuff like that.

So I think that's kind of how that worked.

Does anybody have anything to add to that?

I think the biggest thing with the C and D scene was that everyone had to have their computer on, and they had to be able to be seen by everyone in the that was participating.

Yeah, the entire time I can't.

The entire time, correct?

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, I'm gonna have Don.

Don, do you want to go through a little bit about the best practices that Springfield did and see if there's any kind of comments or these sound good, these sound that sounds tricky?

I didn't think I think I think that okay.

Yeah, uh, real quick.

Um talked with uh the city clerk in Springfield end of September.

And basically um, again, same meeting where we heard about the comment on version talked about virtual, so we reached out anyway.

Um they use Zoom as the platform, they tried using WebEx, got too cumbersome, so or difficult to use.

So they use Zoom, um, whoever's present real quick.

Uh technology, some delays due to lag.

Um they found that for them it's limited to council members only.

Uh public participation just got too unwieldy using Zoom.

So again, it's it's uh council members only.

Um they made one exception, they had an attorney that needed to run a on an issue, make a presentation, and rather than paying transportation, hotel, etc., they let him give his five-minute presentation via Zoom.

Otherwise, it's council members only, and it's the exception, not the rule.

Uh to Sheila's point about scheduling in advance and traveling or something of that nature.

Um, then you could um able to control who enters the meeting, they were designate a moderator, laptop would be the preferred remote instrument.

Uh a couple of things, live mics slash live cameras.

Um, just be aware of that, put your pencil, etc.

Just preparation.

Um council members should remain live, and she reminded me permissouri statute that when there is a vote, you have to be live on camera on no voice vote, it has to be live to where you can be seen and how you vote.

Um they use their regular recording, apparently, because it captures the screens, then whoever's participating via Zoom would be seen and heard, so they didn't have to do anything special as far as recording or changing how they record.

Uh bandwidth is important, they actually have a uh my fi account that uh they can use because again, bandwidth is important, it's the exception.

Um again, develop our best practices.

Um the Springfield City Clerk, she said if we decide to go this route, she'd be more than happy to come up and help us set it up and do some training on pro on the process.

So I mean it's it's certainly an option for us.

Um I know this came up when we were almost perpetually short a council member for a while.

So uh a way to kind of work around that if if need be.

Um but again, it's something that uh it's an option for us.

You know, I I would like us to look into and see if we want to adopt it.

Yeah, yeah, and I think I'll just just have you you said it again, like Zoom is not used for every council meeting only when the circumstances weren't and especially helpful with meeting forum and limits.

Yeah, Nick, you had your hand up.

I'm just thinking of the technology, and I don't know that our own internal technology hasn't changed at least somewhat since the pandemic.

So I'd really want to hear from Auntie about what you can and can't do at this point, and then we are looking at upgrading everything.

So I'm wondering about where we are with that, and that that would very likely make a redo.

Well, and I don't think well, Mark, I can let Mark come and talk about our IT capabilities.

I don't think the upgrade will actually change it will make the presentation better.

But I don't think the upgrade is needed in order for us to do a virtual process.

So I think we have the technology to do this.

So that makes things very difficult as far as audio is concerned.

Not so the video part of the audio.

So if we could find a better way to do that, that'd be awesome.

So I'd like to see what Springfield's doing as far as that's concerned, rather than having a body in Hollywood squares.

Is there something we can do a little bit different?

What do you well wow?

That got louder.

I've heard when I looked at the Springfield video, it looked like the virtual participant was only visible when they were actually speaking.

I think the preference would be to have a model where they could be visible and like pinned on the screen the entire time.

And I don't know what our technology is currently as far as allowing that.

Yeah, I think we could do that.

Just the one person.

Just who, or I mean, if there were or two virtual people.

So well, I think we should have one, whoever's virtual, and then have one on the entire council.

And have those two do that.

Yeah, I think that was the biggest thing that would I think the CMB scene was where everyone had to have a camera in front of them, whether they were into dance or not.

I think that was part of the conflict.

Right.

Or is what I've seen in most cities that do the virtual participation, it is the person that's virtual that's on the screen.

And then everyone else is kind of seen because they're in it, they're in the data department.

Yeah.

Thank you, Mark.

Yeah, I've got your uh were you raising your hands?

No, okay.

Yeah, and then Valerie.

I'm wondering about the notification timeline.

Um, and when we're wanting to give notification and meeting to do virtual participation, um, because if we make that notification too far in advance, then this is great for if you are taking a vacation, if you have a scheduled conflict, and not great if you are facing a medical emergency, if you are sick, if you were trying not to infect your fellow council members, um, which was more of my hope with virtual attendance was to make it a little bit easier on uh disabled and chronically ill members of council.

Yeah, I think that's a maybe a question for our staff how long how long do you need in order to set up for something like that?

Dalton, what do you think?

We have Dalton and Albert.

They are the two that imagine Catherine for council meetings, so I'm gonna turn it over to Dalton.

I think I'm uh three hours before four o'clock will be like the very, very, very latest.

It would be preferable by like whenever everybody turns a presentation by noon.

We knew because we now are coming into day rooms, and so if we know when we get here that that's what our goal is for the meeting to have that ready and going, then that would yeah, that would be the best.

Yeah from a technical standpoint.

Do you have the same or different answer for the already available um remote work session versus what we're considering for council?

I'm not sure.

I'm not sure what the what's gonna change.

I don't think anything would change for remote.

I'm wondering if the technical capacity is different than the general preparation for us.

Well, no, I think it's because since we allow virtual participation for work sessions now, we've only had to do it once.

We haven't had to come to this issue.

And we knew now when we knew the person worked out of town, they were not going to be able to be in person, so we get it virtual.

Um that's so sometimes our work sessions are during the day, yeah, right.

And so the question is let's say that this happens again and we somebody wants to participate virtually.

Um I I that might just be an as it comes up because are you asking for like a hard time?

I mean, I wondered if the time was more hard from a technical perspective than it was from a kind of procedural preparation.

I think for the because of the council meeting itself, it takes more time to set up for that meeting to be prepared for it, and so you'd want a you want to at least have a structured time frame for whether or not if we have to kind of pivot from our moral process.

And if I'm I may not be remembering it correctly, but I feel like for the work sessions in here, the CMB scene is not as important because we're not voting, so you just had the person on the screen participating virtually that way or whatever, but my recollection is you're you're right, and we've had some for the work sessions, we're not taking official vote, and so that would be a good idea.

So it's not the whole production production side either, since it's just a work session, it's usually in this room, or I think we did it in one C before.

Yeah.

So this did come up for me one time when I think I missed due to COVID.

Um, and Sheila had asked if I wanted to remote attend work session.

And we kind of talked about it.

It was by phone, I think it was.

It was that last minute one.

Yeah, and I think I guess I think Nick was participating by phone, so they wanted to offer you the same thing.

Yeah, I I think for me, my decision was it's too short notice, and I don't want to hassle anyone, but um I think also having a better knowledge of what the parameters are would help.

Um, and if this is something that we're considering as a council for the council meeting, the proper regular um, I don't know, maybe it's good practice for us as council members to exercise that remote meeting a little more frequently as appropriate to have the practice.

I I don't know that I want to encourage us to do virtual if you can be in person if because I find it a lot more useful.

Do you mean just to practice it?

No, I mean like in the case where someone has COVID or is on you know, or is traveling and the option exists.

Uh you know, previously I would have waived that to not be an inconvenience, but keeping that procedural exercise open has value as well.

I'm not saying we should just not attend this practice.

Yeah, and it sounds like that it makes sense then for if uh council member does um whether or not as as soon as you can put knowledge if if you're not going to be in attendance and have the options, some don't have the option to attend virtually um time zones or wherever they are.

Um and if it is kind of an acute one or a quick one to have that noon deadline so that staff can set it up for them.

Um, and then we'll it looks like we'll put together some sort of what we're learning from best practices and probably also hear from staff on this, if there's any additional ones for that.

And then I have the question about um the um the audio issues with Zoom, but it sounds like Mark knows how to make that how big that any other questions on this one.

Do we have to change anything in ordinance in relation to this?

I just have a couple questions.

If you want to do something procedurally, do you want to have guidelines or qualifications?

Like the person has to have their own equipment, you know, things of that nature.

Um, the whole, like I think when we did that pilot thing, there was information, you know, on the commission members, virtual presence requirement, personal electronic devices, things of that nature, and then also um, do you want to limit or um when somebody can participate virtually or not, or is it just to provide notification by noon for a seven o'clock meeting?

So, like however many hours that is prior to any meeting, because if we have a work session or a regular meeting or special meeting that starts at two noon may not be enough time, so just is there anything like that you want in the last thing I would say is um are you can concern about quorum or limiting the number of people that can participate virtually at one time because the technology somehow does fail if you don't have four in the room, your meeting is essentially over.

So things like that, do you want to think about any of that and add it to any sort of guidelines?

Yeah, because I think that was one of the things that we did have during COVID is that you had to have a form in a room for to allow for the meeting to actually go forward.

Yeah, I think I think you all had the experience with this.

So the best practices and putting together similar to sounds like Springfield had, or those sort of guidelines for yeah, camera on the things to do.

Uh, in relation to your question about the notification, I guess what we were just talking about, where it's like if it's a work session, it's not as you have to have seven hours in advance, but if it is a special regular meeting, I think that there's that expectation that you would have a long enough notification staff has the time to put it together.

Any other questions on that one, Sheila?

All right, all right, moving on to the next one.

And this this has to be more of a I have to understand from a staff's perspective.

This was the conversation about whether or not we could broadcast the pre-councils and the work sessions, and I know that um in talking to Sheila, there is a cost to that because of our closed captioning, um, and just for us to be considerate of that.

So I don't know if you want to speak to what those are.

So I spoke with um Ryan when this first came up.

Um, and one of the things he mentioned is in besides the fact right now it has to be in the council chamber if we weren't to broadcast them because that's the only room that has the capacity to do that.

So you wouldn't have an environment like this, you'd have the regular meeting environment.

Um the second thing he mentioned was um that the cost for closed captioning is 98 per hour.

So if you have a two-hour meeting, that's an almost an additional 200 uh that day, I guess.

Um and then um the other thing is like sign language interpreters, closed captioning people can only do the work for so long before they transition to somebody else, and so with a longer in a sense, length of meeting since it's like a lot of times back to back, um there's gonna be gaps in closed captioning, and some of the gaps will be there'll be more gaps, I guess.

I'm not sure of the delay change, but there'll be more gaps between when they transition from one closed captioning person to another.

I don't know enough about how that works to answer many questions.

I just know that I'm trying to remember Jackie.

Was this one of your kind of questions?

I don't know if you've given more thought to it or or want to comment on thoughts.

Yeah, I haven't really given additional thought.

I just think it's important that um we seriously consider broadcasting um pre-council work sessions, just so all the information is available.

Again, I go back, I'm always gonna fall back to accessibility.

And the five o'clock start time is difficult to get over full-time, but I'm also thinking of the mothers that bothers it on child care, people who don't have cars.

So if it's possible for us to make sure that our work sessions are broadcast to people then access the information and at least hear the discussion, they can't participate in it.

I think it's really important for us to try and make happen.

Yeah, and I'll just add, I mean, what was our year about that?

I was just gonna say, um, on the uh disabilities commission, a few of us were able to attend the national ABA symposium and looked into some really interesting information about um not to use for main council meetings, but for some of the smaller meetings and craps work sessions.

Um there are significantly better AI live captioners now, um, where then there is a live person editing it, but because they are editing rather than doing all the original typing, they don't have to take those gaps as frequently.

Um and so I know Adam had been on the with disabilities commission had been looking into the cost of that, and I believe it was um significantly cheaper.

So that might be an option as well.

Yeah, and I'll just say, you know, to that, you know, at first um when we were talking about broadcasting for work sessions and pre-councils, part of me was like worried that we lose the candidness that comes with you know this sort of because you know when you're sitting at the dice, it's a different sort of perspective, where there's when we're sitting just in a small view.

Um, but I've also had so many people, you know, over the few years ask, well, when did you talk about that?

And I'm like, oh, well, at a work session, like you will listen to the audio.

I so I hear you on like we do have a lot of these conversations, but people assume we haven't had them, and so it is a way to just point them to where it is happening.

And to follow up on additional information from Springfield because we just got a lot of information from them.

They do broadcast all of their work sessions and have received good feedback from from their members, but they every work session ever meetings they do that's not closed, they do broadcasting.

So it's being done.

Um just a quick update on that live AI.

I think and correct me if I'm wrong, but what I understand is right now the technologies is kind of not doesn't help facilitate that, but the changes that are going to be made should facilitate that.

Um so once all that work with the chamber and all that is done, we might have be able to use that live AI kind of thing.

I asked, do we have a time frame for that?

Those improvements.

I know we said that RFP, and I know that's off the main question, but where are we with that?

So we had um two companies respond to the RFP, and we are staff is continuing to evaluate uh those two proposals and are um requesting best to five authors.

And then do we have an idea?

I know originally I had thought we might get this done over the holidays, but I'm guessing that's not gonna happen.

So it seemed like it was like a two-week kind of minimum of a two-week kind of thing.

We don't do have any idea when that might happen.

Staff was looking at completing the work when it would be least disruptive to council meetings and board and commission meetings.

Right.

Um, and that um there was a delay, a long delay in working around the commission and council meetings, and I said we can't um postpone the project.

Um, we need to move quickly.

And so once we get the vendor selected, it's my intention to move swiftly in getting that project completed.

Uh, as far as timeline on the it'll just depend on when the vendors can get all the equipment that we're getting purchasing.

Okay.

So it's not like they have everything, so that we I we have no really idea.

I'm sure it won't take you know a year or anything like that, but I'm hoping it'll be quick.

Yeah, optimist.

Well, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I think once you have your once you have your vendor selected, then you then you have them establish what that timeline will be, and then we can give a report back on what the timeline is.

Yeah, yeah, we don't have any timelines from them.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah, thank you for that update.

Okay, so now moving on to the next one.

Um, oh, this is one that we uh Vera, you had talked about um and it just as we're on our and sorry, staff, it's kind of like super boring, but like this is not like the housekeeping things that we're like, we've talked about this, let's just make it part of our practice.

So this was uh Vera's note that we should make it kind of our expectations of standard operating procedures when council tables an item, it's our expectation, and I'm looking to my council members to agree with the consensus that a supplemental memo comes back with it, either because we're usually tabling it to give additional time or the applicant and the neighboring partner property, or because we've asked for additional information, or because we're not ready to vote because of the questions around the council, and to probably look to you like our expectation the supplemental doesn't have to be huge and long, but it just gives that additional.

We did look into it.

Here's the answer.

Yeah, so the one thing that asked for is with that expectation is when we table if it's because of a specific question, make sure that staff knows what that question is so we can make sure we can provide that feedback.

Well, we're gonna lean on you then too to make sure that we haven't told you that question that you ask it to ask us to tell it too.

Okay, any questions on that?

Is there any issue from you all on that?

Okay, all right.

Next one.

Um, we already did that one.

Okay, this one uh in DeKarlin I'll call it let you take a little bit of the lead on this one, um, revisiting what it is that we talked about before retreat as far as emergency um when you were let allowing us know about kind of emergency, how we are communicating that.

Yes, and this also might be a good kind of for council to weigh, you know, how is that working for us, and is there any sort of additional um clarifying points that we want to make or or is it just acknowledge?

Okay, so we had talked about this at um I think it was uh 2023 council retreat, where we just wanted to make sure that staff and council were on the same page on what the expectation is for communications, especially for when an emergency event occurs, and so I think what we decided was that if there was an emergency that occurred, that I would send out a general text message to the entire city council informing them what occurred and provide that provide that information, and as we received additional information, I would provide uh updates according to what as I as I as they come in.

And so that's been the practice, and you still just want to make sure that we're still okay with that, or if there is something additional that we want and what and if it is, then what does that look like?

I think one of the questions that came up during one of the most recent ones was um we don't necessarily have a timeline on when to expect if there is an update to the information and whether or not that update is the response from the police chief, if it's related to the police or the fire chief, if it's related to fire.

So I don't know whether and again that relies on the an investigation of state, you know.

So I don't know what's a realistic expectation to put on that.

And so and that's a great question.

So one of the things that we had talked about at a previous discussion was about how do we provide those reports from those emergency activities.

And so that's one of the questions I I have for that we'll talk about during our public safety meeting is so if there is a process that we can do a status report that can be sent out to the council, and what is that timeline for that status report?

I don't have that yet, and so that's the conversation with the two chiefs, so we can actually put together a process of a rhythm format.

Questions from council on this one?

I'll say I I appreciated you sending those messages to us all at the same time, or when I first started, you only sent it to the mayor, which I didn't know what I was supposed to do with it.

So uh I would try to send it then to the ward representative of that, but everybody their reward lines are blurred when it comes to communications.

Because I know this was kind of related to council, yeah, Jackie.

So unless you can tell me this is not the appropriate time to talk about this.

But my other in regards to emergency communication, um not just with council, but with the public.

What is the expectation and timeline for when the city will address the public?

And so and that's usually specific to toward the event.

And so the police department, they have a process for when and how they make those notifications to the public.

Well, we have to do this, this, and this, and this.

So it's that's that's a hard one to kind of grab our hands around.

Um I think when we with the conversations with our public safety directors, we can kind of have a conversation on what that could look like.

I I think sometimes there's an expectation that you would do a press conference on certain events, and what we've seen in most communities is that you don't you usually you reserve your press conference for a particular significant event, and not saying that a homicide isn't a significant event, but it's usually more granular than when you would when you decide to do a press conference.

And so they're they're very strict protocols on when you would call for a press conference versus when you would call for a media alert.

Did you want to clarify that I've got to there?

Yeah, so I mean, so I'm um and I know I mentioned this before, and we can't like detail everything out or have a process for everything, but so I'm hearing the you know the CPE has a process, fire department has a process.

At any point, does the city also release like there's a sign on to that?

Is it a joint statement, or is it just specific to that department?

It again it goes back to the type of event.

So when we had the vibes too, I think that's probably a really significant event where we end up having a more in-depth conversation, and we had that press process.

Um we are I can have Sydney kind of come up a little bit.

We are aware of those communications and we are in that in that granular conversation, so we know exactly what's going out.

Uh thank you.

I'm not positive that this is what you're asking, but um typically the individual departments will send the city manager's office um official communication, so press releases those more formal things for review.

We have a rule for the public safety folks, and if we don't get back to them within 30 minutes, go ahead and push it out.

Don't wait to be asleep.

Um but if there's an event where there's say a threat to the public, they can push information out without having to send it to us in advance, so they can take your those needs.

Does that make sense helps me?

Yeah, I see anything out.

I was just gonna comment.

Um, it seems too much the press releases come out once they've like notified families, yes, um, if there's a problem or when they have some information, so like the whole vibes thing, you know, there wasn't much information available at first, except they're gonna shoot it, and so that took it seemed like a few hours to sort of sort out who the victims were, who was shot, you know, like to be able to give some information versus just there's a shooting and five because somehow or another I don't think that's gonna really cut it for press release.

So it always just sort of seemed to me that it just depends on what it is, and I'm sure we get there, or sure you all can take a closer look at if there's anything you need to tighten out, but it seems sort of issue to and we've and we've improved our communication process over the last couple of years to try to be a little bit more upfront and in front of things, but you know the key point is to make sure that before we snub a lot of information, especially something that will note will name a victim that we've notified the family first, and so that they're aware of what's going on before it becomes a public information, and so I know there's some really strong restrictions that the police department utilizes when they do those type of communications, Valerie.

Yeah, um, when you were mentioning um, I guess what a threshold is for when to do a press release.

You were kind of talking about um not every homicide is press released, but conference press conference.

Um but some, yeah, thank you.

Um, but some do tend to have that expectation attached.

You also said that what you see in other cities are um specific protocols.

I'm wondering if you what you saw in those protocols and if we can review those, if you can bring that perhaps to a work session.

Matt, you want to come and speak a little bit about that for a second.

Um part of when we do when we talk about two different things.

We talk about press conferences, number one.

Um, when you do one of those, you're going to have to have information that you can put out that is going to be attractive to whoever your audience is.

The problem with that is a lot of times when we walk into one of these incidents, we don't have that at the point that we're trying to put information out.

So once you put it out, you better be really certain that it's the right information and it's the right time because you can't take it back.

Um, so a lot of the stuff that we don't put out is how many shots were fired.

Um, you know, just different things like that.

Because if you're looking for witnesses, those are the things the witnesses know, and if you're pushing that information out, then everybody knows it, and so you can't separate what those things are.

So we have to be very careful about that.

We don't do notifications like full disclosure, someone got hit by a car today and passed away.

We haven't released that person's name because we haven't notified the family yet.

So we can't put that stuff out until we check a bunch of the boxes that just have to be checked before the general public is notified about things like that.

That's really helpful.

Thank you.

Um, I think my question is this is in the police handbook.

Um, can we review this protocol?

It like, can we see what's in there so that we understand it's so I'll tell you this if it's in the handbook, I've never seen the handbook.

Um because there's so much of it that you're playing with different factors with each with each instance.

Like you may have somebody that you know that they passed away, but you don't know how they passed away.

You may have somebody that you know how they passed away, but you don't know who they are.

You may you have all of these different moving parts and pieces that don't line up in terms of like a checklist of making sure it's a flow chart every time they run away.

It doesn't, it rarely lines up like that.

Um, and so it's very hard to say if this then or that it's one of those where you just have to make a lot of those decisions on the fly and decide what you're gonna do and then stand by what you're gonna do.

So a lot of times when we're holding back information, it's with good intentions, and we'll get it out as quick as we can.

Um, it's just better to put out it's better to put out something that's valuable at that point than just saying nothing.

Um, and so that's that's where that balance lies, and so we try to do the right thing by that.

I clearly respect the timing and the information contained in the reports that we got from you all, by the way.

Good.

And a lot of a lot of what we're trying to do is put out basic information quickly, but then all of the stuff that everybody wants to know, the detail detailed stuff of it, then we're we're holding all of that until it's time to let as much out as what we can.

And if I can clarify, I think Valerie, your intent of that question is just so that when somebody asks us why didn't we have like you know, why didn't we have a press conference after a second?

It's because so they Valerie can then respond.

They have a process for how they evaluate when to do these things, right?

Is that yeah, understanding when the process is so that I can explain that to citizens, and also um understanding, you know what it means when I hear a report, sure, right?

Um, or when I should be listening for a report.

Sure.

No, I can certainly try to make sense as much as I can of why we're doing what we're doing, and just a lot of times people want all of this information, and we're just not in a position where we can let that go.

But I'm as much as we can, I'm absolutely open to that because honestly, it takes a lot of pressure off of us if we get the information out there.

It just has to be in certain orders and and by the best way to say it other than by design.

Absolutely.

I specifically did not like information coming out too soon.

Um I think you all did a good job managing that.

The other part that makes this different now than it did like when I started was you have social media and you have all of this stuff, and so you're trying to you're trying to outpace that and beat that um and get your story and your information out there first, even though it's not always the best decision, um, because you've got a reporter that's listening to the scanner and they're putting out whatever they want their narrative to be, or whatever they think their narrative is, which is also not always accurate, and so you're you're running kind of backwards a lot of times trying to, I guess trying to trying to put the true narrative out there and in the absence of no narrative, people have a tendency to create their own.

And so you're trying to you're trying to outpace that and beat that um and get your story and your information out there first, even though it's not always the best decision, um, because you've got a reporter that's listening to the scanner and they're putting out whatever they want their narrative to be or whatever they think their narrative is, which is also not always accurate, and so you're you're running kind of backwards a lot of times trying to I guess trying to try to put the true narrative out there and in the absence of no narrative, people have a tendency to create their own.

And so you've got all of these things stacked against you that you're just trying to keep track of.

I think we all have all that play.

I still have just from the fire department perspective, since you mentioned public safety is parallel with law enforcement public safety now is it's more of a practice than it is in an algorithmic report or something that's just complicated where you have to do those res like Matt said with uh hand up or if uh we're values driven.

I think the value is to be lawful, and in the cases of uh anybody that's great upon or be treated as a victim or or be contacts and the rest.

We have mental health uh legislational laws, we have criminal legislational laws, and then we have uh HIPAA and confidentiality with the person being a patient laws.

That's number one, and number two is to make sure that it's accurate first and foremost, and after that, like you mentioned that social media that's noise.

The job you hire professionals, that is that is our job to make sure that we're values driven and it's accurate.

The timely will come, but it's more important to have those two things.

We're projecting our community and we're getting out as accurately as we can.

Yeah, thank you for that.

Um we can go on.

I appreciate both chiefs uh weighing in on this conversation, and and I think curly thank you for continuing to improve and give us this opportunity to move on on it.

Um before we end our work session, I realized or Sheila pointed out that we did not make a formal decision of when we want to start doing the virtual or when we're starting doing the broadcasting of work sessions.

Um so with the acknowledgement, there are we could we could start at the next one, but there are some limitations, obviously, in relation to both the logistics um both for the space, but also um for closed captioning, um, but added costs and added cost, and so wondering what the budget impact would be for that will have to be figuring in.

Um, but is it does council want to start um broadcasting work sessions starting at the first meeting in November?

You want to wait until January.

I'm not knowing what the schedule is of work sessions is probably talking about audio at that point, or you'd be doing audio.

Okay, so we're we are streaming this.

Well, not stream streaming, it's recording, it's recording in its place there like a day or so.

But are we talking?

So I'm not sure.

We're talking about moving uh pre-councils and work sessions into the council chambers and broadcasting them like we do a council meeting.

Video, yeah.

And streaming, or yeah, okay, it's everything production as a lot because streaming is streaming is product like the broadcast video, so you're doing it all at the same time, so it would be live streaming that.

I would rather wait.

I'd rather hear what it's gonna cost.

Um we can go back and like say how many pre-councils and how many work sessions we have this year or in the last 12 months and give you a cost estimate.

I mean, just pre-councils.

If you said two hours every time, how about 4,800 a year?

Um, add in the work sessions, obviously, it's uh more.

Did we decide to get rid of the newspaper?

Yes, I wasn't paying attention to the case.

Oh, I didn't get a decision on the end of it.

So, yeah, there's some savings.

So, everyone okay with getting rid of the advertising of board and commission vacancies in the newspaper, knowing that we've upped the additional ways to get it out as notification.

About requiring advertising for board and commission vacancies in the tribune in Missouri.

I'm not exactly hesitant.

I just think that it'd be good to know how the human are getting to us now, and um and that'll inform what we do moving forward.

So it's more than what we do, whether or not we do newspaper, it's what do we do.

We'll bring back a report um with the 188, the schedule public comment, and the boards and commissions for you guys to finalize, like we'll have a direct or something you guys finalize that together.

So could we wait until after we get that report to be cipher and move into the main chamber?

And then you can answer the other questions kind of about the estimate of cost.

And I think one of the things too that will be useful is that we have had some work sessions that we have chosen to do as live streaming and broadcast, and so to know the like those, and like I wonder if there's also a question for viewers, but that's a whole separate one.

Yeah, okay.

So we're gonna we're expecting to get a report back on all of the proposed changes discussed tonight uh with potential legislation for changes as well as the additional questions that we asked.

Yes, we'll we'll target for the second meeting in December.

Okay, sounds good.

All right, you had your hand up here, but I'm also gonna stop us.

You have to get it pertinent right the second.

No, no, no, go ahead, didn't you?

So fast.

I was I was just gonna say that I I do think that we should move forward with uh broadcasting our pre-council and our work sessions.

I think we can do a couple, take the 200 each time and then figure out the ongoing cost afterwards.

What I I guess I would say is I don't know what the session what the discussions are upcoming work pre-councils, so let's see also what they are.

Okay.

We can't do tomorrow.

No, we can't do tomorrow because tomorrow we can't I'm gonna go ahead and adjourn us.

Thank you.