All right, good evening, everyone.

Um I want to thank everyone.

We have a uh almost full house here at Council, which is always something that I like to see because uh we're all here because we love this city.

We are all here because we love the places where we live, we love the places that we visit, we love all of the good things that make Columbus uh the place that we choose to call home.

So I want to thank everyone uh for making uh the time today to be here with us to be in council chambers.

Uh I'm going to go ahead and call this hearing to order.

Um excuse me.

Today we will be discussing uh proposed updates to the Columbus City Code regarding the right of way and certificate of appropriateness process.

Specifically, we will hear about a clarification stating that the City of Columbus does not need to obtain a certificate of appropriateness from commissions with historic architectural or design review authority when performing work within the public right of way.

This update is intended to streamline city operations while maintaining our commitment to preserving Columbus Historic Neighborhoods.

Columbus historic districts are a vital part of our city's identity.

They tell the story of our neighborhoods and our communities' history.

I want to be clear that this proposed clarification does not diminish the city's respect for these neighborhoods or our dedication to thoughtful preservation.

We remain committed to design practices, engagement, and collaboration with community partners to ensure improvements reflect the character and context of our historic communities.

Our responsibility is twofold.

One, to preserve the neighborhoods that make Columbus unique, and to ensure residents can rely on safe, accessible, and well maintained public infrastructure.

This update allows us to do both.

A public right of way is a legal right for the public to travel over land, streets, sidewalks, alleys, and the underground corridors that carry utilities like water, power, and fiber.

Even when private property borders or lies beneath these areas, the city maintains authority to operate, repair, and upgrade them.

These are public spaces that residents rely on every day for mobility, safety, and access to essential services.

Clarifying the code ensures the city can respond quickly, ensuring during emergencies like water main breaks, down traffic lights or hazardous conditions without procedural delays.

This update aligns Columbus with common municipal practice.

Cities must have the ability to maintain the public right of way to meet safety obligations and operational needs.

This change does not alter our commitment to protecting the character of historic districts using context sensitive design, engaging residents and neighborhood groups, and partnering with preservation advocates.

Today's hearing is an opportunity to listen.

We look forward to hearing from residents about this proposed clarification.

Our goal is to ensure Columbus maintains a strong balance between preserving the legacy of our historic neighborhoods and upholding the city's duty to provide safe, accessible and efficient public infrastructure for everyone.

Part of the Columbus Forward Package is indeed historic preservation.

And my colleague, uh Council President uh Council I just gave you a uh yes, uh update.

Um President Pro Tem, Councilmember Rob Dorns is leading the piece of legislation with the support of this council.

I would like to give the floor to you, President Pro Tem, uh, to talk a little bit about uh historic preservation.

Sure.

Thank you, Chair, and I appreciate uh everyone's attendance here.

And certainly I've heard from uh a number of residents um electronically and uh calls and emails over the past several weeks about this particular topic today.

Um, you know, while we're the public infrastructure isn't always the sexiest thing.

I know uh folks have deep, deep interest in this piece of legislation and certainly this proposal.

Um I think a lot of the folks that are here, I I'm like you.

I think every house and apartment I have lived in in Columbus has been over a hundred years old.

So um, yeah, I'm one of those folks that you know you're always terrified when you're doing that home repair project of what you're gonna find that hundred-year-old pipe and you know that kind of thing, in which, but it's been something that I have loved about this city in which I have uh lived over 10 years in one of our historic districts.

Um again, one of the things I think is so incredibly valuable about uh Columbus is its vibrant history.

And I think German Village and other historic districts within Columbus is a great example of a history that has been certainly uh respected and preserved over the years.

And as my council colleague mentioned, one of the uh initiatives from the Columbus War package, which is a package of legislation led by this council uh proactively to think about the growth and and uh quality of life of our residents, is focused on modernizing our historical preservation practices.

And we know that in a growing city that that is something that is utmost of importance when we think about um, you know, I chaired the zoning committee, and when we went through the first round of uh of zone in when we modernize our zoning code for the first time in 70 years, uh we had a lot of questions about what that meant for changes in neighborhoods.

And I think that was a very valid question that was posed uh during that time, which led to me towards you know, this interest in um bringing forth legislation here in the coming weeks that will set aside money for council to bring folks on to assess what our current historical preservation policies are, where the gaps might be, where modernization may make sense, uh, really to think about how do we do so uh in a respectful way as we move into the future.

Um, you know, when I lived in Italian village for 10 years, um my mus my neighborhood was not a museum.

You know, it's a historic district, but it's not a museum.

It changed and evolved every single year I live there with new residents, new buildings, changes.

When we think about the evolution of our historic districts across Columbus, none of them are the same that they were 10, 20, 30, 100 years ago.

So when I think about many of those places developing, you know, prior to there being access to cars, prior to there to being, you know, air conditioners on folks' houses, all the kinds of modern amenities that we take for granted today at some point was a change to that neighborhood.

And many of those changes I would argue have made life a lot better for folks that live in those areas and have contributed towards making them more livable in our city more livable.

Um so we can expect changes to happen in Columbus, but the question is what kind of policies do we have in place that provide transparency and accountability to make sure that as those changes happen that folks have expectations around how those are going to be managed and how are those can be done respectfully to those um within those communities and have folks within those communities understand what those processes are going to be and what they're not going to be.

And I think you know, this is a discussion here today that sort of runs alongside that question of what does historical preservation look like in a city that is rapidly growing, that we have 50 new people calling Columbus home every single day.

It's important for us to get that right because we know and I know a lot of the folks that are here today, their interest in this topic is because communities not only here in Ohio but across the country got that wrong when we think about the legacy of urban renewal and what that did to so many historic uh neighborhoods across our city and what that meant for uh you know bulldozing the entire sections of neighborhoods that had you know generations of historic fabric, not only in the buildings but in the people that called them home.

Um so one thing that we know that we we need to do better.

Uh we know that um we have a patchwork right now, and we have you know well over a dozen different historic districts and how that functions both internally with different departments at the city of Columbus, how that functions with folks that are looking to you know bring new businesses or new housing to our city, how that uh occurs in a way that again is complimentary and respectful moving forward.

Um, but we uh are interested here at council and really taking a big step back and saying, you know, what is working, what is not working, what can we do better, um, and what are lessons learned from not only our own history but other people's history, uh, but also what are other folks are doing right now on this topic as well.

So I'm interested to hear more about the proposal that Department of Public Service has brought uh on this particular topic.

Um, but also, and you know, the chair and I have had this discussion previously.

I don't expect this to be the last discussion to have, uh, whether or not that is around uh modernizing the historical preservation policies or particularly in the right of way.

Um any piece of legislation that's considered by this body, I would expect to be the jumping off point for future discussions with residents uh across every historic district and across our city.

Um and I think that's something that is important to think to know that this uh any piece of legislation is not the end of any discussion.

Uh in fact, it's uh conversation that I would expect to continue and continue to take the form of additional legislation down the line, and something that I would expect from the modernizing our historical preservation policies to in fact take the form of legislation uh in the future.

So uh appreciate folks' interest in this, appreciate the interest from um both folks from the preservationist community, uh, from folks from the disability community, um, and appreciate that the chair uh again making space for folks to really um to ask tough questions of both council and the department and really have a thoughtful dialogue about what this looks like in a city like Columbus that again is growing, is changing.

Uh, we need to be thoughtful around that.

Um, but know that every nook and cranny of the city of Columbus is going to evolve as we get bigger and better.

Um, and I think that's important for us to really take that to heart as we start off a discussion like this.

So, Chair just appreciate the the opportunity to really highlight that you know, we're talking about one particular piece of um sort of historical preservation here, but we're planning at council to take a much broader view of this, and something I think is well overdue, and something I think will have an impact in how we think about future growth in Columbus.

So thank you.

Uh thank you, Pro Tem.

And I I just want to echo um for folks, and I know have had conversations with uh different residents who are here today or residents who reached out to our office.

I think, you know, I was born and raised in the city, it looks very different than when I was a kid, and I remember I was a boomeranger and came back, and the city has grown and evolved and changed, and there were certainly things that uh were part of my history, part of my growing up, you know.

I think about incredible landmarks and things that we lost, like the Kiki restaurant, which was the first place my dad worked as a bus boy who uh that went away, right?

And I think about parts of downtown that looked very different when I was a kid that now, to your point have evolved, and we've made some mistakes along the way, absolutely.

And I bet all of us could point to a building or point to something that we wish we would have preserved, we wish we would have kept, and I think as we look at not just zoning, when we look at practices, ensuring that as folks have properties that they're taking care of them and they're responsible for them so they don't deteriorate so much that we can't preserve them, right?

And how are we thinking about how we're keeping that history in our city?

Certainly, but then also how are we meeting uh the modern day both opportunities and challenges that we have today, and I think that we're dedicated to that.

I think I want to thank you for your leadership because as we you and I have had many conversations about this.

I think as a person who deeply cares about giving folks in our city access, mobility, um, giving them options and how they move around the city.

Um, I know that this is a place where um it feels like there is tension.

I don't think that there needs to be.

I think that there are changes and compromises that we're all going to have to make.

Um, and I think that's part of what this discussion is about today.

So I want to also acknowledge my colleague, Councilmember Beatty, who was here.

I know uh pro tem you will have to leave at some point.

I think you're staying with me for the long haul, sir.

I appreciate it.

Uh I want to give folks a rundown of how this hearing will work today.

We have three separate presentations.

We will give those presentations first, um, just so that we can lay down the groundwork of essentially how we were here, uh, why we were here, why decisions will be would be made uh that both pertain to uh the code, what is the definition of the right-of-way.

Um, also uh public service will talk about our work in the right-of-way and the necessity for us to have access to that that we have in every other part of the city of Columbus.

Um we will hear from our partners uh or our department of economic development as well as we think about planning in the city, and then from there we will move to public testimony.

So we have both uh folks who are for the changes in the legislation, folks that are against.

We will go back and forth between the two.

I will call our speakers uh and I'll let you know who was on deck so folks can then begin to prepare.

Joseph speakers know you have three minutes.

We do have a full docket.

We have around 16 speakers, I believe, at last count uh that are signed up to speak.

So you will have three minutes.

Um, so please plan accordingly, and then uh we will get through our speakers and then we'll conclude this public hearing.

Um I want to ensure that folks know that we still have a listening period, that this is not the end of the our listening.

This is the beginning, or I shouldn't even say the beginning because we've been listening, but this hearing is part of that process.

So if folks were not able to make it today, we do have a number of written testimony that in if they haven't been shared with all of the offices, we made sure to share them and we share them as well with public service.

Part of the goal of our hearings is to ensure that there aren't unintended consequences, or that we uh not or but and that we are um we have the best possible piece of legislation that moves forward.

This is a little different because this is a code change, and usually with our code changes, it includes modernizing or changing code.

So I want to give a little bit of a level set there.

Um while we did introduce other pieces to this code that folks may speak to uh today, those are the things that we'll take into consideration.

So uh to start off our uh presentations, I would like to introduce uh assistant city attorney and general counsel from the general council section, Josh Carti, to give us a little bit of background on the certificate of appropriateness and where we are today.

Floor is yours.

Thank you, madam chair.

My name is Joshua Carti.

I'm assistant city attorney in the general council section in the city attorney's office.

I represent the departments of public service and development.

And I'm going to just speak briefly about the specific legal reason why we are here today and why the legislation is uh presented before council.

On August, excuse me, I'm sorry.

On August 29th, 2025 of this year, the German Village Society and various property owners initiated a lawsuit against the City of Columbus, naming the Departments of Public Service and Department of Development in the lawsuit.

The Department of Public Service had been prepared to start the installation process of 55 ADA compliant curb ramps within the German village historic district.

So this is what precisely prompted the lawsuit.

But the plaintiffs in the lawsuit argue that under existing city code, the city is required to obtain a certificate of appropriateness from the German Village Commission, which is a city body with mayoral appointments before performing any work in the right-of-way.

And specifically in this case, we are talking about sidewalks and curb cuts.

The city countered that there is another provision of the city code that made it clear the German Village Commission is advisory only with respect to city performed work in the right-of-way.

Long story short, after a couple of hearings, the court agreed with the plaintiff's interpretation of existing city code.

And I believe, do I have a PowerPoint?

The court stated, and I'll just read this at length because it's somewhat small text.

The court issued a preliminary injunction against the city on September 29th, 2025, and provided as follows.

Quote the City of Columbus, Ohio and its officials, agencies, departments, agents, and contractors are hereby enjoined from causing, allowing, permitting, assisting, promoting, or accommodating the demolition or alteration of any sidewalks or curbs within the German village historic district, whether by an affirmative act or an omission, unless and until a certificate of appropriateness had been obtained from the German Village Commission for the specific demolition or alteration.

And this preliminary injunction will remain in effect until the court issues a final appealable order in this case.

So, Madam Chair and Council members, as you can see, the language is fairly broad.

So this order is in effect until the case runs its course, which could be anywhere from 12 to 18 months, if the standard litigation course is held to that the court usually adheres to.

So given that the Depublic Department of Public Service had a concern that there would be significant barriers put into place during the pendency of the lawsuit from performing work in the right-of-way.

And not just German Village Historic District, although that's the district that is specifically involved in the case in which this order applies to, but the other historic districts and design review districts in the city as well.

East Franklinton, Downtown Commission, and the University Impact, uh University District Impact Review Board.

And the reason for this is the logic of the court's opinion would apply equally to those historic districts and design review districts as well.

So that's why, if there's a question of the breadth of this legislation, that's why it applies also to the other historic districts in the city and not just German village.

Because of the plaintiff's legal argument in the case and the case resting on a legal interpretation of city code, um, this legislation is necessary to clarify what the historic practice has been in the city for at least 20 to 30 years based on discussions with the departments, and that is for work in the right-of-way.

So we're talking roadways, sidewalks, curbs, um, etc.

The city does not need to obtain a certificate of appropriateness, appropriateness or approval before performing that work.

So that's what the main goal of the legislation is, and it's to correct the interpretation of the Franklin County Common Please Court.

Um, one final thing to note, and I will wrap up here, but I'm happy to entertain any questions the council members may have is that if the legislation is passed, the the litigation won't go away immediately.

Um we would, as the city attorney's office seek dismissal of the case based on the new drafting of city code, but that would be a little bit of a process as well.

I believe those are the only points that I have, but again, happy to entertain any questions or hand it to my colleagues from the Department of Public Service.

Uh so first do my colleagues have questions.

Yeah, I do have one question, Counselor.

Um is there any, are you aware of any current state or federal law or case law out there that would um contradict the legislation that we have going forward or any potential constitutional violations like a taking takings clause?

I am not, Councilmember Beatty, and and the reason for the lack of any constitutional issue on the takings front is because this is city-owned property, so it's not the property of a private property owner, which we we might be familiar with in the imminent domain context.

This is already city property, so from my perspective, I don't I don't see any constitutional issues.

In fact, there are certain federal obligations, which I believe my colleagues from the Department of Public Service might speak to later under the Americans with Disabilities Act when performing a certain amount of work in the right-of-way, that triggers an obligation to make the right-of-way ADA compliant so that folks with visual and physical disabilities can access on an equal basis as those without.

And are you should should we take this as if the case proceeds to the preliminary injunction stage and a permanent injunction is uh issued by the judge that you would see that as precedent binding precedent that this would take effect on all the other historic districts and design review districts?

So if the case proceeded to a permanent injunction, um, would the case apply to other historic districts?

Not technically, however, I think our office would be in the position to advise that the city should follow whatever process is imposed by the court in this case to apply to the other historic districts, and that's because under existing city code, there's really no logical distinction between the historic districts.

So practically speaking, yes, it would apply, although technically the case only specifically involves the German village historic district.

Right, because you would want to avoid future lawsuits from the different areas around town, correct?

That's correct.

All right, thank you.

That's it for me at this point.

Um it's a lot of fun to be here with two lawyers and talking to a third.

So I I'm gonna put this in non-lawyer terms.

Thank you.

So I understand.

Um first, before this lawsuit, we were doing work in the right-of-way without asking for a certificate of appropriateness.

That's correct.

And from my understanding, it is because the code was there wasn't a clarification in the code, but a presumption in the code that everywhere else we have access to our right-of-way because we own the right-of-way.

That's correct.

The departments had been interpreting existing city code as giving them the authority to perform work in the right-of-way without obtaining a COA.

And can you just I I know I gave this here, but give a very clear definition of what the right-of-way consists of.

Sure.

Uh the definition of right-of-way that the proposal so sorry, the proposed legislation uses comes from City Code Section 900.06 B, and I'll just read it.

Right-of-way means a general term denoting land, property, or the interest therein, usually in the configuration of a strip acquired for or devoted to transportation purposes.

When used in this context, right-of-way includes the roadway, shoulders or berm, ditch and slopes extending to the right-of-way limits under the control of the state or local authority.

This includes the surface of and the space above and below the paved or unpaved portion of any public street, road, highway, shared use to use path, sidewalk, drive, or any other land dedicated or otherwise designated for the same now or hereafter held by the city.

And that's the end of the definition.

And as I just want to point out one thing that I forgot to mention in my main presentation is that this legislation does not involve uh city-owned structures.

So it only applies to the right-of-way, which I just gave the definition for.

For city-owned structures, um, I think it it's the department's position that there would be a COA process involved there.

So, say for instance, a building is owned by the city in one of the historic districts, it would go through the COA process.

But for right-of-way, which requires you know some immediate work and the city needs ready access to, and not just the city, other contractors working within the right-of-way to replace utility lines, for instance, that needs pretty quick work.

So that's that's the definition.

Um happy to entertain questions.

As of right now, because of the injunction, what what does that practically mean for our ability to work in the right-of-way?

Practically, it requires the city to go before the German village commission to obtain a COA, but which adds, you know, days at least, sometimes weeks to the process.

What it means practically for others, homeowners in particular, is that if they have a say a water service line disruption that goes under the sidewalk, the sidewalk is brick.

What it means practically for others, homeowners in particular, is that if they have a say a water service line disruption that goes under the sidewalk, the sidewalk is brick, the sidewalk has to be destroyed to reach the service line, that property owner now has to obtain a certificate of appropriateness.

Before the litigation, that was not the procedure.

The procedure was the contractor could just simply go in and perform the work.

But now, given the breadth of the preliminary injunction order, we have advised the departments to require contractors or property owners to obtain a certificate of appropriateness for this type of what I would classify as urgent but not emergent emergency work.

So that adds, and I I can testify personally, that added you know, at least one to two days on a particular project that I became involved with answering and guiding the departments.

So it's just delay, you know, you might have a flooded basement that otherwise you could have fixed two days, now it might require three days.

And the larger implication to the point that council member Beatty was making before is that depending upon what could happen or the definition of a design what um design review or historic distract that this could actually reach other neighborhoods as well.

That's correct.

Okay.

Um additional questions.

Okay, we may come back.

Uh but I want to now um give the floor to the Department of Public Service team.

So first I will introduce uh Deputy Director Born Trager, uh, and then as you go through the presentation of other members of the team will introduce themselves.

So the floor is yours.

Uh thank you, Chair uh Bursa DePadilla Um and members of council for having us here today talking about this important um piece of legislation.

Um I wanted to um underscore that what we're doing here today talking about is returning to decades of uh our work and the right-of-way.

We're not asked asking for any new or um different um authority than we had last year, last decade, two decades ago.

Um and it returns to us the ability to be responsive to our residents.

Uh much of the work that comes in is through 311 requests, um, including our uh ADA mandated uh curb repairs and curb insulation.

Um these are uh usually the result of a combination of factors, one of which is resident concern and feedback about their mobility uh in German village or anywhere in the city as we build out our curb ramp work.

Um I will say that the uh genesis for the litigation was the um ADA curb ramper work.

Um others will talk about how uh we met with residents, stakeholders, German village society, and others many times to um to talk about the plans where they were going, um, and we even uh made compromises along the way.

I know my colleagues will speak a little bit to that.

Um but this is going to affect people with uh disabilities, seniors, um, parents, uh caregivers, pushing strollers from accessing the jewel of um of Columbus.

We um are not um trying to take away the historic nature of um any historic district.

We value it.

Um I know council values it, the mayor and administration uh values it, and that's why it is important for for having an advisory role on these, and that's why we take um public engagement and outreach and responsiveness um very very um highly in our um in our outreach.

So this also um as was laid out, it affects all the immediate needs of our residents as well.

Um the in large part um receiving a COA is um something that we're not going to be able to do given the differences and our differences in opinion on uh work in the right-of-way.

So, what does that mean?

We're gonna have to wait until after the litigation, and if that litigation is successful for um the plaintiff, um what what incentive?

It's about six times more expensive to put in at least six times more expensive to put in a um ADA curb ramp that doesn't use any concrete concrete.

Now we've agreed to minimize the use of concrete, but we can't eliminate it, um, or it becomes very artisan work and requires very expensive uh materials.

Um so we also can't face a um uh delay claims by the contractor.

Um so we're likely gonna have to cancel that contract as this litigation moves forward, which means that these areas in German village won't won't receive curb ramps, probably for a decade or more.

Um, and does it disincensivizes public works projects, public and private utility projects from investing because of the the costs associated with that and the delays to a schedule.

Um and as you know, it's winter outside right now, not all public works can be done at all times during the during the seasons, and so schedules are very important to those projects.

And as laid out, this likely likely affects investments around the city in our 18 historic districts.

Um these are areas that um uh together are uh significant work orders and 311's come in.

And we'll talk a little bit about that uh going forward and what the impact of of those real world issues are.

But I do want to have on um a next slide here, which I I guess I skipped some of these slides.

I do want to talk a little bit about um the real impacts on a person with disabilities, not only a German village, but specifically that those are challenging, and and um this video is from Karen.

Um Karen couldn't make it here tonight because of her disability, uh, but she did give uh approval to to watch this video um and here to just to show um some of the challenge she faces in everyday life from uh the age-friendly Columbus organization.

So I don't know if my name is Karen Peters, I'm 74 years old.

One day I said to my husband, I thought you were gonna build me a little house with a little yard.

And he said, I thought you always wanted to move to German village.

So I started looking right then.

Of course, I get around a lot better than I can walk.

When I wake up in the morning every day, the first thing I do is turn my stimulator on.

If I just had the one problem in essential tremor, that would really sort of fix things.

But unfortunately, I have chart homery two, which is the muscle district family, and that it affects your muscles and your coordination and your balance.

So it doesn't really, they don't have anything for that.

When we first moved here, I could walk to the city center and back, believe it or not.

I can't tell the doctor I need the brain implant.

He thinks that's funny.

Uh let's see, my day is well, my day is pretty hard.

Anything I do.

But I'm so used to it.

I'm trying to think of the hardest part.

This has happened to me slowly.

So I have been able to adapt my house to my challenges.

I can see I can do everything here.

And then the other thing, I guess, is thinking about uh if this keeps getting worse, what's next?

You can't imagine it, but almost every person's house has steps to some kind.

So I have to really know where I'm going and know that there's gonna be somebody there to help me in and out.

So I guess I kind of if I'm going someplace new, I kind of think about that.

But now when I go out on my car, really it's I'm pretty relaxed.

Yes, yes.

You can let that show relate.

Don't wait up as they are late.

Just because that one, you can't tell me to wait for that.

I whistle for a weight.

I'm about to spend my baby but the unit.

I'm getting my exercise today.

There you go.

Here we are.

You can just bring those right over here on the desk because we got a list of things.

I do a lot of social things.

I like to go out by myself sometimes because I can go on my own time.

And there are a lot of restaurants here that I can get in and out of.

Getting around on the mobility cart, you have to be really cautious of what route you.

I got through here.

I don't think I can get through that.

I think it's too tight.

When I'm gonna cross the streets at different intersections, I never go when they're on the count, mail.

I always wait until the beginning of light change.

So I have plenty of time.

I think Clumbass said very good, except the curved cuts.

If I have a railing to hold on, I can get up steps if I can hold on really good.

But in German village, that just does not happen.

The biggest thing is the restrooms.

Whoever puts the bars up in the restrooms, don't have a clue what you need, you know, where.

So I, you know, I don't really think anybody could understand unless they'd been around somebody.

When they see somebody that, you know, hardly around.

But I don't really feel like I'm in my 70s.

Uh the real world impacts of um investing in in our infrastructure.

Um, some of those challenges um are um are difficult and take time and resources.

Um, but it would um be a shame if we can't move forward with ADA curb ramps and other um investments um in a timely manner.

Um, and so while there's a number of benefits that are outside of just ADA curb ramps here, this particular one that's litigation um kind of affected, I I think um really uh harms the ability for us to to um uh create an equitable transportation system for all of our residents.

And with that, I was going to turn it over to um Deputy Director uh James Young.

Thanks, Randy.

Uh Council Chair, Council members, uh thank you.

Uh I wanted to go through and talk about the history of us working with German village.

Uh we thank you.

Uh we were working on a study in uh roughly 2010, and it was the uh third street streetscape study.

And in it we were going through and looking at uh what we could do on Third Street to improve the condition for pedestrians, and one of the things that came very clear in the study is that if we went through and we were uh improving that corridor that we were gonna have to replace a lot of sandstone on that corridor.

Uh in doing so, we did not have a sandstone supplier.

Working with the German village, working with Shiloh uh Torturoff, we were able to find a supplier to actually provide sandstone that was commercially available uh that we could we could go.

We uh I think a lot of you are aware of the stockpile we have in our yard where it's you know um say salvage sandstone from around the city, but a lot of times when you're doing long linear work, it's it's not really advisable to to use that for production for whatnot, just to try and improve the areas and get good clean crisp corners.

Uh we were able to uh again uh procure this the supplier, uh have them as part of our spec, and we've been using them ever since.

Uh in 2018, we had a project on Livingston Avenue uh from Fifth to Kennedy, this bordered German Village, and in that project, the South Side uh actually used the new sandstone and we installed Brick Curb.

Uh and we also got approached in 2018 by another uh executive director in German Village.

And we went on a field walk, and her name was Delilah Lopez.

We went on a field walk and she was showing us how in the in the area our curb ramp standards were actually replacing a lot of the ramps with a lot of concrete on the corners and on parallel curb ramps.

Uh we changed our standards the the next year to minimize the amount of exposed concrete.

Uh again, any time we change standards, we kind of step through it.

We want to make sure when we revise it, contractors can build it.

We we we want to make sure it's it's repairable, it's maintainable.

Uh we even going through that uh we stepped our way through on the parallel designs.

These are a little more complex, requires more um masonry work on cutting the brick, and did a couple pilots working with our contractor before we even developed the standard, which was published in uh 2022.

So we did this, we're always looking at our standards.

We're our standards are not fixed in stone.

We evaluate them every year.

Uh we want to make sure that when we uh update them, that again when we go get bids that we can actually get commercially viable options.

And uh again, I'm gonna hand it over to Mr.

Pike here to talk about uh where we were with the current revision on the on the standards.

Thank you, James.

Uh my name's uh Jim Pike.

I'm uh city engineer for Columbus.

Um we've recognized the the challenges uh in many of our city streets in German village and in the right-of-way uh while also trying to push that there we go.

All right, thank you.

Sorry, Rob repeat.

Jim Pike, City Engineer for the City of Columbus.

Um we've recognized that was not me.

We good?

All right.

Can I continue?

They're very sensitive.

When you speak a little higher something, yeah.

All right.

All right.

So we we recognize the challenges that we face in German village uh on our city streets in the right-of-way uh in that district while also trying to incorporate uh uh modern challenges uh that we face for equal access and mobility concerns.

Um, regarding the ADA project, uh we've been meeting and communicating with the German Village Society on this uh since 2024 uh out in the field and in meetings.

Uh we've made several decisions that that directly benefit the ADA mandated curb ramp installation process and enhances German Village Historic District and addressing mobility concerns for all of its residents.

Um we have an obligation to meet these federal ADA requirements uh while also while maintaining that equitable access uh in our transportation system for all users.

Uh the department's division of design and construction, uh, we've dedicated a lot of effort uh towards making these improvements working with German Village.

Uh our staff, our in-house design team of engineers has worked an additional 400 plus hours of effort and time to basically take the plans that our contractor already had bid upon uh to work to incorporate other changes that the German Village Society had requested and what we felt we could do while still making every ramp uh 88 compliant.

That's ultimately above everything else.

Whatever we do, whatever we build out there, still has to meet all of these requirements.

Um and I'll say that again, this time and effort uh that we did above and beyond also takes away from our staff being able to utilize that time on other designs for other curb ramp or resurfacing projects throughout the city.

Um, this doesn't include additional meetings that we had and communications with uh German Village Society, nor the nor management staff's time uh and dedication on this project.

Uh the construction contract obligations require timely completion as as Randy had spoken to uh for the city uh to avoid any type of potential delay claims that could come our way.

Uh the current injunction could cause this project to be canceled if we can't get it finished.

All right, our in-house design is uh we've been diligently developing individual detailed concepts.

Uh working with uh the German village society.

Uh some of these things that we've met and discussed are minimizing the use as best we can of concrete.

We have I'll show some examples here in a minute, but we have many corners that are currently concrete, and we've already told them we will go back on those corners and we will replace those uh with brick.

Um we will try to minimize the use of concrete around the detectable warning and the ramp itself.

Um we still need to have some concrete visible, that's part of the requirement for visibility detection.

Um we've also looked at, we've updated James mentioned standard drawings.

We recently updated our standing standard drawing 2319 uh in July, which is our curb ramp drawing to uh include cast iron detectable warnings in all historic districts in the city of Columbus, uh not just German village.

Uh we've looked at using different types of concrete ceilings.

Can you for just a second?

I'm sorry, before we move past this point.

When you talk about the federal mandate that we have, can you talk a little bit about that and how do we decide and where when we're talking about the ADA ramps that we are mandated to put in?

Um can you just talk about that for Are you are you asking about how we select the locations?

Okay, so uh most of our locations that we get, and we have tens of thousands of ramps throughout the city of Columbus.

We have thousands that still need to be updated to meet ADA standards.

Um most of our requests start early on, they come from 311 requests.

We have an area that needs a you know, hey, this this ramp I can't get across the street.

Uh so to that, um we take that at that point, and uh our infrastructure management team will then uh go out and maybe they'll assess a whole street at that point.

So let's take Cosseth and German Village.

We may have gotten one call on a location in German village on that uh street.

We'll look at the other, and if it makes sense, maybe we'll do the next four intersections as well.

Again, we're looking at economy of scale, trying to make sure that a contractor isn't going to be jumping around you know all over the city because mobility is also another uh mobilization costs or another concern that we have.

So we'll look at maybe going down and doing that whole street, and that's how we we kind of approach it uh uh looking at that.

But a lot of our requests come in from 311 requests.

And I I think in some of our conversations, these are areas that are also more dense that we are trying to attack in in addition to um, you know, a lot of folks will say we have ADA ramps that go to nowhere because we're trying to backlog uh or trying to backfill them in.

So when we're doing other street projects and we have the opportunity to provide an air, put in an ADA ramp because we know a sidewalk is coming, but it makes that curb more accessible while we're waiting for the other infrastructure to kind of come in.

Yeah, yeah.

There are many, many times, yeah.

You'll see you'll see ramps out there that maybe don't they're there, they're they're there because they need to be there, and and that's how we lay it out.

So it could be a three-way intersection.

There's a different pattern that we have on what types of ramps need to be there.

You know, you cross alleys, that's a little bit different, right?

We go down other streets.

So anything we put in, yeah, it's meeting all those federal requirements.

We're we're not gonna go in and put in a ramp and then have to come in and I'll just say add another ramp just literally on the same corner around.

We'll we'll take care of both ramps if they're going to be required.

But we do look in the future.

And can you talk about you talked a little bit about the visibility, you know, um why we put the the squares that folks will see that have the the um the raised bumps on them.

We see certain things that ADA ramps require, and those are our federal requirements to make them safe and to make them actually usable for folks with different impairments.

Can you just talk about that a little bit?

Yeah, so uh you're talking detectable warnings.

Um in the photo that I had up there now.

Uh we probably don't have a um yeah, you could you can see right there on the corner on the right hand side.

So that would be a detectable warning.

Um that's a that goes in that's an indicator for somebody with uh that's visually impaired uh that's going along, they know they sense that when they get there, they have hit one a crossing and two, they've hit kind of the edge of the they're right on the edge of the roadway.

At that point, it gives them an opportunity to kind of you know make a determination as to when they can get across.

But that's what those are.

Those also need to stand out uh so that it does not blend in.

If that was all brick around there, you might not be able to see that detectable ordinary, it wouldn't pop or stand out.

So we do have to have some type of a border that we put around there that at least makes that visible.

Um a lot of and I know I wanted to point this out because folks may have seen this like in airports.

Sometimes they have them in different places or different parts of the city.

And it is a tool for folks with different um abilities to then have people to, whether it's sight, sound, whatever it is that they might have an impairment, that is the tool that then they use um to to then understand the their environment and be able to make choices when they are moving about the city.

Correct, yes.

Um, and and it depends on if you had a uh if you had a curbless street and you had a crossing, that that detectable warning could go the entire length of that street.

You know, if you look in the downtown area, a lot of the corners there are kind of flush, and you'll see that detectable warning wrapping all the way around that corner in those cases.

Uh we don't have that here in German village, though.

So any additional questions?

Okay.

Um and again, so we're gonna be able to do that.

Sorry, Council.

All right, we made reference to um the delay um potentially endangering some type of cancellation.

Would that be a cancellation of the private contractor or the federal government or who could you unpack that when you said cancellation in danger of a cancellation?

Yes, yeah, yes, Councilmember Beatty.

Um the the most of our contracts, when we enter in with a contractor, everything's bid out, um, and and after we award, there's usually a completion date that's associated with that, so that when everybody everybody's bidding, they're all they realize when the beginning of the project can happen and and an end date, right?

So they know how much time they have to work with.

Um there are delays that come about for numerous things, weather being a simple one that could push the delay date.

Um, but we're we're in a point now where if no work is being done and it's no fault of the contractor, uh so in this case, there's an injunction, we can't go out and do the work.

The contractor could come back and uh ask for delay claims and the cost because they are now sitting uh, you know, they're they're they're basically doing no work at this time, and it's just adding on to their schedule.

So there could be a multitude of things.

If that goes on too long, we could go in, we may have to go in and just cancel out the contract to minimize our exposure.

Now that said, by going in and not doing, say, the 55 ramps that have been brought about uh on this injunction, um, I'll say contractors are also bidding work on economy of scale.

Um so we're kind of caught in this trap where they could come back and say, well, I bid this work, knowing that I was going to be doing 80 curb ramps in German village, or I was going to be doing a hundred ramps in Linden, right?

If all of a sudden we reduce that down, they may say, Well, that's I only did 35.

That cost me a lot of money because my mobilization costs, you know what I'm saying?

So they could come back and we might have to still pay them potentially for curb ramps that we decide not to build uh due to uh uh you know an escalation in their cost initially.

So okay.

All right.

Um I I guess real quick here, um, you know, to kind of wrap up.

I talked about our standard drawings that we've been updating uh to include that.

I mean, we're still willing to work with uh you know all communities and German village uh on these designs.

Um you know, my team worked hard to develop these updated plans that we were going to then give to the contractor.

Uh there is a lot of time and effort.

And I I think we'll you know, as we move forward as as James demonstrated and discussed, we you know, our standard drawings are what we use now, but we're always willing to look and improve upon those uh uh to to make things better, more efficient, economically better for us.

Uh, we'll continue to do that.

Um here I'll go through a couple more uh examples here.

There we go.

Okay, uh I just want to give a few examples.

So this is uh at Mohawk and Lansing.

Um I'm just gonna show you some before and after uh pictures there, so you can see that that ramp went in there on that uh bottom corner there.

Um here is an example at the corner of Mohawk and Concord.

Uh you can see there was some grass there.

Um we tried to maintain all that.

Um it's hard to see on the corner that that sandstone curb that was on the corner uh was pretty beat up.

Um I must say that you know one of our challenges we also face that we're also willing to do is on, you know, where we can, we try to put sandstone back.

Particularly on the straight pieces, we will make every effort we can to utilize the sandstone that's there.

Many times though, as you get in there and you start digging out that sandstone, which goes well below into the ground.

I mean, we're we're talking it could be 18, 24 inches below the ground.

It's a big piece of sandstone that sits in there.

It may crumble on the corners.

The corners in particular, where this challenge comes in for us if it's not concrete, is we would have to physically go out and design every one of those corners for that.

So on the corner that you see here at Mohawk and Concord, if that corner were all sandstone, we'd have to go out, design it, physically put plans together, a shop drawing we'll say, has to be sent to then a fabricator or a supplier, and they will have to make a piece of sandstone specific for that corner and that corner only.

So when if we got into 55 different corners, you can see that's a lot of different pieces that would have to be detailed out uh to make that happen.

But on the straight edges, if we can, that's stuff that we currently have that's available that we could try to utilize uh and makes it better.

So what's the cost of stand zone?

If it compared to concrete curve, I'll compare it just in comparison.

Uh it generally on the straight pieces, it could run four times more than if we were to pour a concrete curve, and it could be anywhere from six to eight times more for the uh curve portion.

And I'll say that also does not take into account design costs that would go into that that we would have to use to detail it out.

But we do keep a reserve of sandstone.

We take it out for German Village specifically.

Correct.

We do out at our our 25th Avenue facility.

We have a stockpile out there.

It's not a lot, uh, it's not enough to do a full street uh if we had to do that.

Um we make that available where if if our uh colleagues at say the division of water were out doing uh a repair out there, um, we would have maybe a piece of sandstone that they could utilize uh for there.

Um, you know, that type of thing.

Utilities, if somebody came in and needed a piece, we have some available, but we don't have enough to do everything in I'll say in German village or any other historic area.

So uh it's tough.

We again we try to salvage what we can, but uh uh sometimes it's unsalvageable.

And the corners are our biggest challenge.

All right.

Um so as we're going there, if we look at again, this is uh Mohawk and Concord.

Um here's a corner, uh fifth and cosith.

So you can see that here's an example of a corner that was all concrete.

Ramps there were not ADA compliant.

We came in, you can see that during our project we we uh added additional brick and that corner as what we are are gearing towards right now.

Um as and we put that again.

We tried to minimize the use.

You can see there's a lot of curves in there up on the stop by the stop sign.

But again, here's a case where we would try.

If we were to do this actually today, um, those those detectable warnings would be cast iron.

And we would also probably make an effort to try to even minimize the amount of visible concrete in that particular picture.

Um here's a final example.

Here's a here's an example of something that was on our current project that we were going to be doing out of the 55 corners.

Uh this is just down from uh Schmidt's, right?

About two blocks uh to the west.

So you could see Cosseth and uh make an alley.

So here's a case where uh this may have come in as a 311.

Um maybe it got added to the whole street along Cosseth, but this is a location we were gonna install a ramp, but currently it sits like that uh due to this injunction.

So we're not doing any work on that, and it'll um it'll stay like that for now.

Um and again, I was touching upon 311 calls that come in.

Um, and uh I'm gonna now turn it over to uh Drew Williams who's maybe gonna talk a little bit more about um uh some of the uh work orders we get throughout the region Madam Chair, Councilmember Bailey.

Thank you for the opportunity to be here.

So again, my name is uh Drew Williams, I'm assistant director in the Department of Public Service.

I have the pleasure of serving.

You may have to come a little closer.

Okay.

My name is Drew Williams, assistant director, department of public service.

Have the pleasure of being able to serve the residents of the city of Columbus in the capacity of asset and performance management and also right-of-way permitting and among other things related to infrastructure.

So I want to go to the PowerPoint to be able to share some numbers and some things that we have.

The first thing I want to do is go through and show a 311 that came in uh in the German village area.

This is um deemed to be urgent with this uh power pole uh in the middle of the sidewalk.

Um, but under the court order at this particular point in time, uh, we're not allowed to get into that area.

Can you bring it even closer to you the microphone?

Okay, how is that?

Is that better for folks?

Is that better?

Sorry, friends.

So this is a 311 that came in that's considered to be urgent, that is in the uh sidewalk uh area that we are not allowed to uh go in without a certificate of appropriateness at this particular point in time.

Um, and we get 311s on a regular basis.

I want to share some numbers uh with you just to kind of put it in context of what we currently get and what we've been getting over the years.

So here what you're looking at, and I want to put it in the context of how things actually operate, that these 311s, these work orders, these inspections, and all these permits that come in, they're not just standalones.

Okay.

So for example, we'll get a 311 in it since 2024, we've received 452 311s that have come in.

We've received from 311s that leads to work that may have to be done or actions or work orders.

We've received work orders in the number of 597 work orders over that span as well.

Okay, and so with that, contractors may have to get in the right-of-way.

And we've done 230 permits, 124 permits, and 230 inspections.

That's what we've done since 2024.

So looking at this graphic here, a German village, you can see the numbers that we've had by season of that of those different ones in terms of work orders, permits, uh, and so on and so forth.

Uh so there's a lot of work that goes involved with that.

When we talk about the delays and things that we get, this order of operation, by the time we get to a permit, that can that certificate of uh of appropriateness has to be received.

It goes along with the permit.

So every permit that would come in if it's in the German village area that has any contact with sidewalk or curve, or in some cases it could be a nexus to it based off of where the location is or the work on the street, we would have to get that certificate of appropriateness as well.

So we get quite a few of these on a regular basis.

I have a quick question.

And I actually I meant to ask this uh actually I'm not sure who which one of our experts here could answer this, but uh if we think about so the German village, German Village has a specific commission where we go for the certificate of appropriateness.

Do our other neighborhoods that fall under either uh design review or historic district, do they have an entity that if we needed to go to get a certificate of appropriateness, do they have a some sort of entity or commission that we could then go to that would award that, or does that not exist everywhere, or does it?

So I'll I'll take this again.

All of the historic districts and design review districts do have their own commission, and Italian village is one example, but the East Franklin design review board is another example.

So, yes, to answer your question, there would be a separate commission depending on the area of the city.

Okay, continue.

No problem.

So when we look at the uh numbers that we get in terms of these uh 311s, the inspections, the permits that we issue, the work orders that we issue, German Village would rank third among all of the historic districts in terms of that sheer number.

Um the other thing to consider as well with 311s, out of the top five 311s, four of them potentially are in the sidewalk or curb or may have a nexus to the curb uh or sidewalk uh in the German village area.

So there's quite a bit of work that goes on.

Uh we're uh we're a thousand more permits, I mean inspections this year than we were last year, just in the Columbus area.

A lot of that is in these historic districts, and that number is gonna go up.

And so what we're seeing right now at our right-of-way permit counter is that we are having to slow the process down because the contractor's not really understanding that they have to get the certificate of appropriateness and the process that goes through and then the reviews, and so again, adding more time to the overall process.

Have any questions regarding the numbers or any of the things associated with the right-of-way permitting?

No, and I'm not sure if it's someone from the department, but could someone walk us through what the process is, what the process was before in terms of securing a certificate of appropriateness and what the process would look like now, or what the process could look like in the future.

So I can take this and Mark Dravillis if you want to drop uh jump in.

Beforehand, the process for obtaining a certificate of appropriateness was non-existent.

The contractors would just go in and to the right-of-way permit counter, check off any other box that they needed to before getting a permit from Drew Williams permit counter group.

Now the process is they have to obtain a certificate of appropriateness first, and let's just use German Village Commission as the example.

Fortunately, the German Village Commission has delegated some of its authority to the historic preservation office staff.

So practically what happens is that the contractor will get in touch with the property owner, will get in touch with the historic preservation officer, he will evaluate the application, request a site plan, ask what type of work is being done, and then sign off within the confines of the guidelines that the commission has delegated to him.

So if a contractor needs to replace the sidewalk to repair a water service line, the historic preservation officer will evaluate the application, say, okay, this is approved.

Here's your certificate of appropriateness, but you have to replace the brick with brick if there is brick in the sidewalk and the sandstone curb with sandstone curb.

So that process, even though it is administrative and more efficient than going to the full commission, does add, you know, anywhere from a day to three days to the to the procedure for obtaining a right-of-way permit.

And if I'm a resident, and let's say I have to repair my sidewalk or I have to do some work in the right-of-way or whatever, do I also have to follow those same proceeds?

Do uh meaning not so much the certificate of I understand the process, but do I have to um replace everything in kind?

So can I do I have to replace it with brick?

Do I have to replace it with sandstone?

Or can I replace it with other materials?

I will defer to Mark on this, but my understanding is yes, that you would have to replace it with the historically appropriate material, whatever was there or whatever is under the guidelines of whatever particular commission.

That's correct.

Got it.

Um so for the department, are you done with your portion of the presentation?

If I could just show one last slide, just give you a graphic.

If you can go to the net the very last slide that we had.

This is a map that shows the numbers of permits, shows the 311s, the work orders, and all the likes in the German village area.

And you can see it is practically inundated with the amount of work and the activity that goes on there.

And so when we talk about uh the slowing up or delays, now we start running into each other with various different projects, not to mention uh the franchise companies, such as uh private companies like Columbia Gas or AEP who are planning on coming through and doing uh heavy duty work.

And so the big concern is again um as uh our deputy director alluded to uh the impact to our residents in terms of usal utilizing the facilities, such as sidewalks and curves in terms of getting around.

So major coordination piece, and um, but I just wanted to illustrate the amount of work that actually goes on and amount of activity, and these things are connected, so it's a ripple effect when something one item is delayed versus another.

Thank you for the time.

Got it.

Councilmember, do you have questions?

Okay.

So we'll move to our last um presentation.

So uh we'll hear from the Department of Economic Development Planning Administrator Mark Dravillis.

Did I say your last name right?

You did, thank you, Chair Barosa de Padilla, Councilmember Beatty, Mark Travillis.

Again, I'm the Columbus Planning Division Administrator with the development department.

And I I just have two slides that touch on the the COA process.

This first one is the role of the historic preservation commissions, is really has been discussed tonight.

Is planning division provides support to eight different uh commissions that that cover in total 21 different areas throughout the city is so as we talked, it's German village with downtown university district.

These are pretty broad areas and in various parts of the city.

Um in these areas, property owners are required to work get a COA for work that's done on our on their properties on houses.

It's we do on any given day, it's it's a paint color, it's a porch, it's new development, it's demolition.

Uh and this authority is is it stems from Columbus City Code is the basis that established the the preservation code years back.

Um and really the the base the the code is is written there.

I won't read it, but you know, key point at the end is to maintain and enhance the value of buildings and structures and land in the city.

So this is a core element of what the planning division does working with the different commissions every every month on processing COAs so people could get their building permit and do their work.

Um last statement on this slide is there's nothing in Title 31 that requires the city to obtain a c that requires the city to obtain a COA for right-of-way projects performed by the city, and the planning division then has never required COAs by the city to do right-of-way work.

This is as discussed, the decades of work that's done.

What I will note is that the code is is Josh mentioned, does provide for the commission to have play an advisory role on these projects, and we have a long history of interaction between the planning division, the historic preservation officer, and his staff interacting with the departments of public service and utility and recreation on parks and all sorts of projects that that impact the right-of-way and on advisory capacity and significant ones are brought to the staff, has the ability to bring them to the commission in order to provide their input, and we've done that regularly over the years.

I've been out to German Village with James on projects in years past, um, again on an advisory basis.

Um and then our the last slide here that I have is just a quick review of the COA process itself, and it's been discussed.

Is basically uh any applicant uses our online portal in order to create an application, and and excuse the text, we don't have we we need a graphic, we don't have a graphic.

Um as applications come in, the reviewed by city staff for completeness, there's certain materials that need to be provided, site plans, building elevations, building materials examples.

It's really a very diligent review, uh photos and drawings.

At that point, staff determines if this is something that can be approved by staff through the code provision that allows, as Josh said, the commission has delegated the role to the staff, or if it needs to go to the full commission.

So that's a decision that's made by staff based on code.

If more straightforward, where the commission has said we have delegate this task to staff, they'll do it and then they'll report out to the commission at the end of the month and get their consent, and it's entered into the record that that work was done.

But in cases that are more complex, staff brings them, if they have any hesitation, they bring the project to the commission, and the commission completes their review uh and either approval, denial, or continuance based on its uh compliance with city code and guidelines and so forth.

Um and this is this is uh regular work that happens on a regular basis, and depending on the complexity of the work, it could be a a one one meeting, one month, one meeting, or we have projects that were where applicants have spent two years uh going through the commission process in order to get to completion.

So it's very difficult to say it all depends on the nature of the project and the complexity and the neighborhood input and the commission review that it could be a you know, a staff review could be a four to four to eight hour um process, a commission review project that takes months, could be many, many, many, many months of of everybody's involvement and time.

Um that's that's a broad overview.

Again, depending on the scope of the project, it could be multiple meetings, and and each one of these meetings is you know the the time of the neighborhood uh in and their participation, the commissioners themselves and staff.

I took a quick look uh as of today, I think we've had we have uh almost 1,300 cases in our various commission areas that have been through uh uh the the review process for issue of a COA.

In any given year, we could have upwards of 2,500 COAs.

Um again, any one of these could be four or eight hours, or they could be hundreds of hours.

So if you take the thousands and you multiply them by eight at a minimum or thousands, we're talking about many, many, many, many hours and weeks of staff time.

And frankly, the map that that Drew showed, you know, is is daunting when you look at the prospect of of what it would take in order to complete the review of those cases in a timely basis.

Um and that's that's just my presentation for tonight.

Happy to answer any questions.

So I have a question as it pertains to our historic preservation office, and I mean my assumption is that we look at best practices, we look at other historic areas around the country.

Is there any sort of precedence?

Do other communities have COAs?

What does that look like?

What does it look like when a city interacts with a historic area in other cities and have we looked at those practices and what have we what have we put into practice here?

And is this kind of following the same sort of guidelines as other cities?

We we do informally engage with other cities in order to try to keep up with things.

So if you research and you look at Cleveland or you look at Nashville or Charlotte, COA is this is common terminology.

So what we do is really consistent with what a lot of cities throughout the country do.

What I can't say is that we welcome and and look forward to you know council's leadership and on the preservation analysis that uh President Pro Tem Dorren's talked about because it's one thing that we think we do need to do is a more comprehensive uh you know, thorough evaluation of what what the rest of the country is doing and what needs to be done in order to modernize historic preservation of the city.

I am not convinced at the as the planning division administrator, in the communication I've had with other planning directors throughout the country, that any city has really taken that initiative yet, and that I do know from communication with other planning directors that they are anxious to take on the same level of analysis and modernization.

And frankly, I think Columbus may be a lead in in that regard.

So what we do today is very consistent with what's done throughout the country, but we we need to dig in and do more analysis.

But even in those cities where they have a COA, the city still has access to the right of way to do work?

Yes, correct.

The focus in other cities is like the focus in Columbus is really on the structures themselves, the buildings and the structures.

Got it.

Let me let me ask one more question because I looked at your um the planning group.

I mean, it looks like you have four to five staff members with preservation in their title or in their background or schooling and everything like that.

Would that be correct?

And I don't know if you want to speak to that.

That's correct, Councilmember.

Uh James Goodman is our historic preservation officer, and then he has staff under him.

Uh I want uh Nick, I'm thinking Jacqueline.

There is four staff.

So there's basically one staff person per each of the primary commissions that we have, uh, and then additional staff that staff the design review commissions.

Okay, so there's a particular person that's assigned to each of these two Italian villages, to Victorian village, to the HRC to the German village.

That's correct, right?

That person knows the particularities of these individual unique historical areas.

Absolutely.

They're intimately involved.

I think there's probably folks here with us tonight that are familiar with the staff for the German Village Commission and Jamie Goodman, uh, and they work with the neighborhoods and the commissioners and and uh you know our fellow colleagues here from the Department of Public Service and other departments.

Any other questions, Councilmember?

Not quite yet.

Uh so I want to thank our departments.

They will be here for additional questions.

So um, as we move into public testimony, if there is something that's brought up, we may go back to the department to ask for clarification.

Any of the departments that are here.

We um may you know, again, ask some of the public uh testimony folks, we may ask them questions as well.

So um what I will do is I will name the first three folks who are um speaking and who's on deck.

So first uh my friend Jack Decker, you are first, sir, and then on deck we have Robert Jackson and Stephen or Steve Holt.

And I apologize if I mispronounced anyone's names.

So as folks come up to uh the podium, you do have come on, come on up, Jack.

You have I don't believe that for a minute.

You have three minutes at the podium, and if you could please introduce yourself and then any entities that you are representing this evening.

And the floor is yours, sir.

Thank you, Councilmember Barossa De Padilla, Councilmember Beatty and Absentia, Councilmember Dorans.

My name's Jack Decker.

I'm president of the Short North Civic Association, which I represent.

I've also been uh homeowner in the Short North since 1980 and a resident since 74.

The Vic the Short North Civic Association is a community advocacy and improvement association that was once the Victorian Village Commission Society, I'm sorry, which uh was formed in 1975, about the same time as we got an historic preservation code.

So the Historic Preservation Code, my organization and I have all grown old together.

And uh in the pro that process, I've been very impressed with its importance in stabilizing our neighborhood.

And as pressures increase from increasing property value, increasing density, the importance of the pres the historic preservation code is increasing, not decreasing in terms of maintaining the stability of our historic neighborhoods since our houses are not all that dense, and it would be very profitable for someone to replace them with something uh more profitable.

In any event, we uh strongly oppose any action that would weaken the historic preservation code.

That having been said, I'm pretty sure the council has something in mind here.

You you've been very clear about what's in mind.

And I just want to point out I don't think it's a binary choice between totally exempting the city or subjecting it to the court order.

Uh I was on the Victorian Village Commission for 18 years, and I was a chair for three or four as a citizen volunteer.

We had a procedure that's in the city code called a concept review.

Uh there I think it it's a the applicant comes in with rough drawings, they don't require get a certificate out of it.

It's one meeting, they get feedback from the commissioners about the changes they're proposing.

I appreciate all of the commitment to historic preservation I've heard from the council members, but there's nothing in this legislation that institutionalizes it.

I don't think anybody claims that filling potholes, uh digging up the street uh to make repair leaks, uh, and so forth has anything to do with historic preservation, but material changes to the appearance of a right-of-way, substitution of materials, other uh changes that are not like for like, I think ought to be subject mandatorily to a concept review by the historic preservation commissions.

Thank you for your attention.

And if you don't have any questions, I'll make way for the next speaker.

Thank you, Jack.

Thank you for your continued advocacy.

It's good to see you this evening.

And I and I appreciate um I appreciate that it doesn't have to be an if an and or I mean uh an or, I guess.

It can be an and.

Um so I appreciate that, and that's certainly something that we we are taking into consideration.

So thank you.

Hi.

Um, so we have Steve.

Robert Jackson, am I next?

I'm just kidding.

Yes, Robert Jackson.

Okay.

Steve Holt, and then on deck is Jeffrey Ruff.

Okay.

Uh I'd like to give a brief introduction to the council.

My name is Robert Jackson, and I am and have always been 100% committed to historical preservation and restoration.

As an adolescent, I grew up in the Ford Homes Historic District in Dearborn, Michigan.

I restored a 70s Chevelle in that historic garage as a teenager.

I bought and restored my first historic home there.

Currently, I'm renovating a late 1800s railroad hotel down the street from our farm.

I'm also entering my third year as a resident in German village in the German Village Historic Neighborhood.

Um I've reached out to the Disability Rights of Ohio organization.

I've reached out to the ADA moderation program, and I've reached out to the Department of Justice.

I believe this results in me having a slightly more objective perspective compared to what's been publicly debated on the subject over the past three months.

Um another perspective is that I was in the meeting where the plaintiff's lawsuit was first proposed.

I was in the meeting where the lawsuit was given the go-ahead to be funded, and I was in the meeting where the response to the negative community reaction from the lawsuit was being addressed.

The lawsuit itself is based on a perspective that the City of Columbus active compliance with the American Disability Act would result in irreparable harm to foundations with concrete cheek walls, destroying historic stance owned curbs or putting in unattractive plastic detectable warning surfaces.

This is not the case.

There's no objective evidence that concrete cheek walls have caused damage.

Plastic surfaces can be replaced with metal at any time.

Concrete ramp curbs can be replaced at any time with sandstone.

None of these arguments show demonstratable irreparable harm.

And I'm sorry, 1221-60 since 1960, specifically citing City Code 3116 and City Code 3117.

But the lawsuit fails to document that safety issues have always been an exclusion to needing a COA.

3116.23 says a COA is not required for anything designated as being unsafe or dangerous condition or required for public safety.

311947 references 311623.

This is what uh the Department of Justice says about if an ADA ramp is is a safety issue.

The ADA ramp law is a significant safety issue as it mandates features like proper slope, width, and hand rows that prevent accidents like slips, trips, falls for a wide range of users, not just those in wheelchairs.

The guidelines are designed to ensure safety and accessibility for everyone, including the elderly, people using canes, parents with strollers, and those with mobility challenges.

So in summary, there is no disdemonstrable irreparable harm.

The information being shared publicly is pretty biased, showing the worst compared to the images that we just saw there where the work's being really well done.

Um and there is a current current exception where we don't even need to change the legislation that the ADA ramps can go in underneath the 311623 exception.

In the end, this is just a 12-month hold on the ADA that ultimately result in the exclusion of the disabled or mobility challenge from accessing this year's events in German Village, like the German Village Lights and the House and Garden Tour, and it sounds like it may be even 18 months.

Thank you.

Thank you.

First of all, thank you for your very thorough review of the code.

We appreciate that.

Um I also just want to be clear.

We mentioned this before, just in the use of materials.

Can you um can the department talk again about the materials that we're using in aside from for the A ramps in in specifically in German village particularly?

Yes.

So I mean, right now, um, again, if the corner has brick, uh, we're using brick for the ramp itself.

Uh we're using cast iron detectable warnings.

Um we are trying on the flares, so picture the ends of the ramps uh going out.

Um again, where feasible we try to put back the sandstone on those straight pieces.

On the corners, we've been putting back concrete on the on the corners.

Umly because uh just trying to it's easier to construct.

Um, and now I will say we do have concrete that is underneath the brick, so the brick just doesn't go down on it goes on what we would call kind of a setting bed.

So concrete does get poured.

Um, and we also use the concrete to help lock in the bricks so that if a let's just say a delivery truck were to hit a corner, um, you know, we do our best to try to make sure that the bricks are locked in place so they don't start raveling.

You see that a lot uh on on you know, and even in the downtown area at some of our crosswalks where bricks start to move a little bit.

Um so again, those are the basic materials.

Am I missing anything else, James?

No, that's how I just I wanted to make sure.

Um thank you, Mr.

Jackson.

I I just wanted to make sure that as we talked about using plastic, we're not using plastic hair, we're using something a little nicer, something that is going to be a little bit more matching the aesthetic, but still meet those safety requirements.

Correct.

Yeah, as I had uh stated, our standard drawing 2319 now specifically calls out for cast iron detectable warnings in historic districts.

Thank you, and thank you.

Uh so next we have Steve Holt, then Jeffrey Ruff, and then Michael Gallagher.

Correct.

Thank you so much.

Uh council member and chair, thanks for having me.

My name is Steve Hoyt.

I'm orientation mobility specialist with pilot dogs.

I teach people who are blind and visually impaired how to travel safely in their environment across the United States and the world.

Uh I've had the privilege of doing that, and I was talking to one of my students about four year four years ago, and she told me I asked her why did you want to get orientation mobility?

And I've never forgotten her answer.

She said, I'm stuck in my home for 18 months.

I feel trapped.

So we got her cane and started using her skills, her OM skills to get around the environment to travel to travel in safely.

And now not only did she travel, but she also got a dog and now works for full time.

I was thinking about that how she felt trapped with people using wheelchairs, not only in German village who can't get around, but across the United States that don't have curb cuts that can't get around because they feel trapped and it breaks my heart.

So please consider that making ramps possible for those with disabilities, those who can't walk, will be able to get out safely and travel independently.

And now I'd like to introduce Brian Zolo.

Thank you so much.

Good afternoon.

I'm Brian Solo.

Sure, glad to be here, and thank you for the opportunity to speak.

I'm actually also one of uh Steve's students, uh updating my cane travel skills.

I've had dogs over the last 50 years, and when my dog passed away last year, got a hold of Steve and said, Hey, it's been 50 years since I traveled in my college days at Ohio State and got around.

So I'm gonna have to sort of you know upgrade the skills a little bit.

It's been tremendous.

Um it's awesome to just you know work together, and it's been great to hear you know the concerns here.

Um I live up in the Gehanna area um and uh have a pedestrian signal that we're you know facing some challenges in the sense that the some of the on the at Rocky Fork North and Hamilton Road, um the streets, yeah, the you know, signals on the east side of Hamilton Road are further away from the curb, and it's very difficult to hear the voice that says walk over the traffic noise.

Uh we've been trying to work with the city of Gehanna and asking them to turn things up.

And I even had my audiologist come out and work with us because I I do have hearing aids, and we were trying to get an idea of what was you know any suggestions they'd have.

And she couldn't even hear the voice herself, you know, and she has good hearing, so just want to encourage.

And yeah, we've got challenges, but let's to work, let's work together to make it, you know.

Uh I'd love to be able to get to the senior citizen senator or the Kroger on the east side of Hamilton Road, but now I can't do it in a safe manner.

So thank you so much.

Glad to work together with you.

And my philosophy has always been I want to be part of the solution and not part of the problem.

Thank you very much.

Thank you, Brian.

Steve, if I could ask you one quick question.

Um I chaired uh uh both the aging and disability um committee for a number of years here on council.

Well, a couple years here on council, I should say.

Um, and you know, this is certainly a community I learned a ton when I was chairing the committee just in terms of access and things that we don't think about all the time.

Can you talk a little bit just for a second?

When when you're working with your students and they're coming up to a curb, what are some of the things in terms of safety or the things that you're teaching them so that they know when it's safe to cross and what are the things that they're looking for?

Well, first of all, looking feeling for, what are the indications that they have?

First of all, person has to detect the street.

So if the sidewalk and the street, we call it a blended curb, that does no good to someone with a vision impairment, either with a cane or a dog.

So it has to be detection.

I do love the detectable warnings.

I do like prefer the hollow sound plastic ones because my cane, when I'm under blindfold, I can still hear those, and my students can hear those better than the iron cast steel.

So we do like that.

They have to detect the street.

Then a person has to, we call it intersection analysis, where they have to study what is going on.

You cannot cross, I do not teach crossing and no control crossing.

That means traffic is continuous, so they have to pinpoint where the noise is coming from to stop sign or a traffic light.

Once they know it's a traffic light, if it's a near parallel surge, we want because it protects them, it protects them from their protective left.

So if it's a near parallel surge, 99.9% of the time a person with a vision pyramid will be safe crossing.

What they gotta remember is that as you're crossing the street with the cane, it's all up to you.

With a dog, it's finding that curve, that up curb.

So the dog is much faster, much more efficient with the cane, it's on you to concentrate and listen to your traffic as you're crossing a street.

So like me, you don't veer right and go into that parallel traffic.

You want to find that up curb.

So detect the street, the truncated domes or detectable warnings are great for people without vision to know they're there, and they have to intersection analysis to be able to cross that street safely efficiently.

Does that help?

Yeah, no, that's super helpful.

Um, and I appreciate that.

Uh you know, I think as we talk about materials and why do we use them?

And I think there's some things that you I uh I again I've learned a ton and I keep on learning, and I appreciate your work because it is so vital to ensuring that folks have um you they can move around, right?

And we can make our cities accessible, and I mean that's the promise that we have to our residents is ensuring that people can move around and they can move around safely.

Yes, you know.

Um, so I appreciate that, and thank you for being here this evening.

And the AP, thank you, and the APS helps so tremendously much the accessible pedestrian signals.

So thank you so much for having us.

Thank you.

I had a question for Mr.

Hoyt, Mr.

Hoyt.

Um, of course.

Thank you.

Um, Mr.

Hoy, for you, real quick.

Um, I know that the pilot dogs operation is located in East Franklin, which is also a design review district.

How would you rate the sufficiency of the ramps in that area?

I don't know if we take your students off the campus to the surrounding area.

How are the ramps there?

Uh, probably a B, if I had to say some of the some of the places the ramps are not very well or uh they're getting better in the area around us, and it was great to put in the uh Hawk signal, the PHB at Rich and McDowell so our students can cross south of McDowell to catch the bus stop.

Before it was no control, and a trainer had to assist.

So it is great that uh they're getting better in the area, and I see that greatly what's improved down there in the Franklin area.

So thank you so much.

Okay, thank you.

Absolutely.

And I know we worked we worked with pilot dogs.

That was during my tenure, so we worked to move that, especially as they were doing the construction.

So um again, thank you for being here this evening.

So, Jeffrey Ruff.

I'm sorry.

Okay, Jeffrey Ruff and then Michael Gallagher and then Nicole Carter.

Oh, Mr.

Ruffin?

Oh, okay.

Sorry, I couldn't.

Great.

So then, Mr.

Gallagher, am I saying that correctly?

Yes.

Uh good afternoon.

Uh my name is Michael Gallagher.

I live at 808 Yeager Street in Gerald Village.

Um, I'm co-chair or now chair of the Historic Preservation Committee at the German Village Society.

Before I proceed, one of the things I want to make very clear, I don't think I can say this enough.

Nobody here is against the ADA ramps or the timely installation of ADA ramps.

Okay.

So I don't know because this is the village is anti-ADA ramps.

It is not.

Okay.

So thank you for the opportunity to speak today.

I'm here here to highlight the importance of the original sandstone curbs, a hundred and fifty-year-old elements that help define the character of German village.

Why are the standstone curbs matter?

The sandstone curbs are one of the distinctive historical details that make German village unique.

They are part of the original 19th century streetscape, the visible reminder early infrastructure, and the workmanship of immigrant stonemasons.

Together with the bricks walks and the narrow streets, they create a co-hohesive environment found nowhere in Columbus.

When the people describe German village as authentic, well preserved, they are referring to this collection of details, buildings, sidewalks, alleys, and sandstone curbs.

They tell the story of the neighborhood's origins.

Irreplaceability.

Once removed, they cannot be recreated.

You cannot reproduce a 19th-century sandstone or patina of 150 years weathering, replacing them with concrete is permanent historic loss.

We have already seen this loss.

Curbs demolished by contractors with no preservation training or without any review.

If the city and its contractors had been required to get in a COA, those curbs would still be in place today.

Why is this exactly why is the COA process exist?

That's why.

This applies to every homeowner.

If residents want to repair a sidewalk or a curb adjustment, they must obtain a COA.

The city should be held to the same standards it places on homeowners.

Public agencies should not be exempt from preservation rules, especially when city work can create widespread irrevocable impacts.

The guidelines already provide pathways for ADA compliance while retaining historic materials.

Cities across the country achieve both.

Columbus can do it too.

Columbus has already lived through painful consequences of losing historic assets.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you for your advocacy.

Thank you for being here tonight.

So next we have Nicole Carter and then Lisa Stein and Robert Kaplan.

I do want to ask a question while Nicole is coming up, just for clarification.

This was actually a statistic that I was very surprised at, and I don't think that I noticed it.

How much of the city has sandstone curbs.

I don't know if we know that answer right off the top of our head from an inventory standpoint.

So but would you say that a good portion of the city?

I know my neighborhood, I live in East Moor, and it has we have sandstone curbs.

There's a good portion of the city, Clintonville.

I mean, there's no part of the city that doesn't have sandstone curbs, correct?

Um I would say if it was a newer part of the city, it might not have it.

So I don't know, but I don't know when it phased out.

Okay.

Thank you.

Thank you for having me today.

Um I'm here before you today as a community leader, community advocate, a mom of autistic son, and a resident who personally navigates the city on a mobile on a mobility scooter.

Columbus is the 15th largest city in the country.

With that level of growth and growth and opportunity, accessibility cannot be an afterthought.

Columbus must be at the forefront of planning, development, transportation, and infrastructure.

I am so glad he said that he is not against ADA.

I needed I needed to hear that.

Appreciate that.

In every neighborhood without exception, curb ramps are not cosmetic.

They are not optional, they are lifeline.

With that being said, people need to have accessibility.

Seniors, parents with strodes, veterans, workers, carrying deliveries, and neighborhoods who simply want to move around safely and independently.

I have spent time in German village area with my mobility scooter.

I have personally experienced how difficult it is to maneuver throughout the neighborhood, the uneven bricks, the lack of accessibility curb ramps, and the challenges that forces people like me into the street just to get from one block to another.

These variables are real, real daily and dangerous.

When accessibility work is delayed or paused, the people also affected are those facing the greatest barriers.

Every day that ADA curb ramp is postponed is another day someone is forced into unsafe conditions or forced to stay home altogether.

That is not who Columbus is, nor who we aspire to be.

I fully respect the importance of our historic districts and the desire to preserve the character.

But preservation and progress can coexist.

Accessibility and history are not in conflict.

Thank you.

Thank you so much for being here, Nicole.

Thank you for your advocacy.

I mean, I think you know that certainly resonates with me, preservation and progress, and I think that's really what we're here to talk about tonight, and how do we find that happy medium between both?

They definitely could coassist, but just real quick, I don't but pausing on it for too long.

There's people who are stuck in their homes that cannot get around.

And I mean, I love German Village, I love it, but I think that I we should not.

We he some people are walking up here without.

I need to see somebody with disability to talk about it.

You know, I mean, I respect, but please, I would like to see someone who has accessibilities problem show um show show the difficulties he is getting around.

But thank you for having me.

Thank you.

Thank you for being here this evening.

Hello.

Hello, Daz.

I am Lisa Stein.

We've met.

I've lived in German Village with my husband for most of the last 40 years.

We are dedicated to this neighborhood and have renovated more than 20 properties.

So we are deeply ingrained.

My husband served on the German Village Commission for 11 years.

So we are deeply ingrained and knowledgeable about this process.

I've enjoyed the process very much when we were able to sit down with the city.

Other people in a room, without all of this fada, we would get it figured out and we would have a good solution.

A good solution is possible.

But this ordinance prevents us, I think, makes it much more difficult to get to a good solution.

Here's why.

Here's what's actually happening on the ground.

This troop here has the best of intentions.

But sometimes what happens in the field doesn't happen the way they intend for it to happen.

That's why these guardrails have to be in place.

Let me describe some of the recent field conditions that led to all of this happening.

Last year, when they uh started the process, the service department neglected to consult with the HPO or alert property owners per the city's own ordinances that were already in place.

The low bid concrete contractor hired by the city had virtually no experience working in a historic district.

They jackhammered up dozens of salvageable sandstone curbs and thousands of historic bricks and discarded them.

They poured more concrete in a few weeks than German Village has been able to remove in a decade of focused work on concrete to brick sidewalk conversions.

They poured concrete cheek walls against private properties with no notice and no experience and no homeowner renovation license, damaging homes and weakening foundations by not using the appropriate barriers.

These foundations are gonna have problems for years to come because they didn't use the appropriate barriers because they didn't know what they were doing.

They're kind they're sidewalk people, not housing people.

They poured concrete curves to replace the sandstone curbs, even where it wasn't necessary per the city's own design specs based on their own personal aesthetic judgment in the field.

They poured concrete steps attached to private homes without consultation.

They poured excess amounts of concrete substrate, preventing street trees from ever being planted without jackhammering up the sidewalks.

They created multiple flooding and pedaling issues because they didn't consider slope relative to the street installation.

Why did this happen?

Because there are non-engineering and non-design people in the field making design decisions because there is there was no mechanism to require the services department to ensure that the designs are detailed and approved to appropriate specs.

To understand the scope of the issue, there are roughly 750 corners in German Village.

And when each corner is installed inappropriately, the impact is significant both visually and functionally.

The historic districts are at the whim of whoever happens to be in the service department as to whether the work is executed in an appropriate manner.

Historic preservation cannot be done by the roll of a dice.

We need structure and rules.

That's what the court system saw when they listened to nine hours of detailed testimony with cross-examination.

Truly understand, understood what was going on, and need their decision.

I'm encouraging you to understand the same level of detail that the court system and bring people and give us an opportunity to have a detailed conversation with you.

I don't think this is an emergency, and I think it deserves another month for us to sit down and get the right people at the table and make sure we all understand and come up with a agreement and an ordinance that's the right one.

But let's not swing the jackhammer, let's not swing the pendulum the other way and have a knee-jerk reaction.

There is a right solution.

I am confident we can get there.

I'm not sure if the department can respond just given the ongoing litigation or not, or I think we'll we'll hold off on any response.

I think maybe taking the conversation offline is probably the best for this context.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um next, Janae Miller, or no, I'm lying.

I'm sorry, I keep skipping Robert.

Come come on down.

And then Janine Miller, and then Chris Hume.

It's because I have it highlighted so I can keep going and then I skip my own process.

Thank you.

Thank you, members of council.

My name is Robert Kaplan.

I live in German village.

I'm speaking in opposition to the legislation that would exempt the city from obtaining certificates of appropriateness in the public right of way.

What happened last year on the two corners of my property shows why this review is necessary.

Without any notice, and in a matter of minutes, the city's contractor jackhammered and erased the historic sandstone that had endured for generations, and none of it was salvaged as it should have been.

I only prevented further damage because I happened to be on site.

Other homeowners weren't so fortunate.

Concrete retaining walls were poured directly against their exposed foundations.

And just after one year, those walls are already cracking and separating, uh leaving the original historic structures vulnerable.

One neighbor even came home to find an extra step poured a concrete step poured onto their historic stone stoop because the sidewalk grade had been lowered.

None of this would have been permitted under the German village guidelines, and for good reason, it physically and visibly damages historic property.

Throughout the project, the crew dismissed concerns from neighbors and showed little regard for the historic context.

This was low bed work performed without the oversight of a COA process that the COA process provides, especially in neighborhoods with a unique historic infrastructure.

And we know the city can meet preservation standards when it chooses to.

It already does so in uh in other historic districts, including here in downtown.

In our neighborhood, the city simply chose not to.

The right-of-way is part of the historic district itself.

Brick streets, sandstone curbs, sidewalks, and tree lawns are defining features.

When work proceeds without review, the damage is immediate and often irreversible.

This is not opposition to ADA and infrastructure improvements.

My neighborhood supports accessibility.

What we cannot support is exempting the city from the same preservation rules every homeowner and business must follow.

Proper review ensures accessibility and preservation work together and prevent the kind of avoidable harm we've already experienced.

This is a chance for council to stand clearly on the side of preservation and stewardship.

It's okay.

And for those reasons, I respectfully ask you to reject the legislation.

Thank you for your time.

And I also would have loved love love to show you many, many, many photos and videos of what happened.

That we weren't able to.

And please feel free to send those to us.

And we're we were unsure.

There's still an opportunity for you to send those to us.

So don't think that you can't do that just because it isn't here.

I do want to acknowledge that.

Thank you so much for saying that.

Thank you.

Have a great night.

You too.

So Janae Miller, Chris Hume, and then Brian Zolo.

Good at good evening, um, City Council members.

My name is Janae Miller.

I'm a longtime resident and community leader in many areas.

And I'll and I have my cane turned this way because I've submitted written testimony, but I'm I want to paint a picture.

This is the tip of my cane.

And my cane is used to help me navigate when I get to the edge of a curb or a sidewall.

It also helps me if there's a drop-off.

But if there's if there's a drop off, you know, my cane will find it, maybe before I do, maybe after I do.

And so I'm pointing it out to say that if you all in German village were really concerned about curb cuts and accessibility, then why'd you filed a lawsuit?

Because in my opinion, you're wanting things to go backwards like the rest of the country does.

Like our president does.

And as a person with a disability who's a longtime resident who needs to travel, get out of my house, go to meetings such as this, having curved cuts, whether it's sandstone, concrete, brick that are safe and that I can find and detect as a person who is blind.

And again, for note, I was cited.

So I hear a lot of vanity in your concern because you all are so concerned about how it looks.

You're not concerned about how it affects people who have to get around.

I guess maybe if you guys get sued for somebody getting hit, they had to be walking or moving in the street because your sidewalks aren't safe because you're worried about sandstone.

Maybe you'll think more about this.

I get the historical factor of everything.

Yes, we should keep our preservation.

But also at the expense of safety, that's kind of what I keep hearing.

You all are worried about how it looks, the preservation of it.

But you know, I feel like you all are wanting us to stay back where we were 150 years ago instead of moving forward.

And as Nicole said, both can be true, both can exist.

And if you really care about your residents, especially your seniors, those who are aging, then you would really be sitting down and having conversation before the lawsuit.

Now you want to have a conversation after you filed a lawsuit.

This should have been more of a discussion than you all filing a lawsuit to make a point.

So again, I encourage the city to, you know, continue to have the discussion, but yet also look at you know all the points.

But I still think German village would be very vain, in my opinion.

And again, as a person who has to travel with a disability, it's it's scary that I had to know that in a neighborhood where my father went to school, my mother did too.

My parents grew up in the German village, you know, that's the South in the Columbus area.

Um that you all are wanting that, and I'm not saying that sandstone's not appropriate, it is, but sometimes you have to put safety first, not the aesthetics first.

Now, if the extended can be maintained for the level of safety, then do that.

But I really hear more concern about holding on to history, we should, but that doesn't mean you can't also look forward.

And thank you for hearing my concerns.

Thank you, Janae, for um being here this evening.

Thank you for your testimony and your advocacy as well.

Thank you.

Um, next we have Chris Kuhn.

Correct.

And then Brian Zolo and then uh Joe Motel.

Okay, thank you, Council members.

I am a 30-plus year resident of German Village and have been involved in supporting my community as a past German Village Society board member, including board president and interim executive director.

But I'm also recently retired from a long career at Team Fischel, a national utility contractor headquartered here in Columbus.

So I understand from a different perspective the work that takes place within the right-of-way.

Team Fischel has worked in cities throughout the country, including the city of Columbus, and I understand the challenges of construction and updating infrastructure.

All of us here in this chamber have a passion for this community.

That's what's brought us here.

What gets lost at times is German Village is a part of the city of Columbus.

We all have a vested interest in how we approach preserving our history and dealing with progress.

The reality is we could not be the city we are now without the benefit of those who crafted the guidelines that have preserved our heritage.

I've heard recent comments that the City of Columbus doesn't want to support historic preservation.

I don't believe that's an accurate statement.

But what I do believe is that there are financial challenges with maintaining a historic district.

So how do we address that?

With the recent work on zoning changes, and we appreciate the efforts of Councilman Dorns and his committee.

Working in an historic district does come with this unique challenges.

But with open communications, which comes through the COA process, we believe those challenges can be over, can be overcome and mitigate issues prior to project implementation that will set forth a clear and concise scope of work that contractors can respond to in defining means and methods.

As someone who's been the recipient of those calls when an issue arises from homeowners, both as a steward of our community, but also from the contractor side, there is a cost in time spent on the back end and at times posing legal issues that could have been eliminated had the initial scope of work been reviewed, questions asked, and those is issues resolved prior to project start.

The COA process is the means to addressing this, where both the public service department and the German Village Commission can come to a mutual agreement and eliminate the time spent after project implementation, addressing concerns of impacted neighborhood.

But let's also be realistic.

The cost of working in a historic in an historic district.

The challenge is working with the department with short-term goals and budgets versus trying to use to preserve materials addressed in our guidelines that have a more sustainable life, but at a higher cost.

We all know that the cost of materials is never going to go down, but with preserving and maintaining the like materials that have existed these many years, it can be a much more cost effective in the long run.

Much of the materials in our community have been in place for many decades, and dare I say it in some places, a century or more.

I would encourage council to address this issue with a more long-term perspective and work with the German Village Commission in accordance with their guidelines, which have been modeled by other historic communities around the country.

We can set a precedent in our support of historic preservation and create a strong partnership that will be effective and efficient for years to come.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So first of all, I want to just say thank you.

Thank you for your advocacy.

I I also appreciate you named a couple things in there that are certainly top of mind for us is how do we balance all the things that we need to do, right?

Um, how do we balance you know?

There is a preservation, there is a cost to preservation.

I mean that figuratively, and I mean that literally, right?

And I think that that's something that we are, I mean, this is why we put this forward as part of our Columbus Forward package, is to ensure that we are addressing and that we are being thoughtful and being intentional about what it is that we are trying to do together.

So I appreciate you uh just naming those things as real challenges that we are um that we are working and we are trying to balance.

So thank you.

Oh, okay.

Got it.

So Brian Zolo did speak right.

Got it.

Okay.

Thank you.

Joe, come on down.

Um next we have uh after Joe, we have Courtney Ain.

Hi.

So sorry.

Yes, Courtney, and then Raquel Colon.

Hi.

Thank you, Chairwoman Council Beatty.

I'm a lifelong resident and uh of Columbus, and I've been a longtime advocate of per for uh preserving the architectural character that defines our city.

I've been a member of Columbus Landmarks for as long as I can remember.

Shortly after I bought my first home on Oakland Avenue in 1985, I knocked on the doors of about 200 of my neighbors' homes in the Northwood Park subdivision, explaining to them the importance of and the benefits of preserving the architectural character of our neighborhood through historic designation.

In 1989, our neighborhood received that historic designation from the city.

I later served as a member and vice chair of the Columbus Historic Resources Commission.

During that time, I had the privilege of providing input on renovation projects such as the Great Southern Hotel, Kosai, the North Market, and the Carlisle Building.

Allowing city departments, whether it's public service, utilities, or any others, to ignore the laws that are written in our city charter to protect the architectural character of our city's historic neighborhoods, will cause irreparable harm.

Allowing exceptions for requiring a certificate of appropriateness will undermine the protections that maintain the historic character of not only German village but our other 17 designated historic districts and 66 designated individual historic properties.

Some might view the removal of sandstone curves, natural brick pavers, and replacing them with concrete as insignificant.

But this is just one more example of the city's practice of a death by a thousand cuts.

Another example is the zone in policy that does not provide for an ounce of protection for the hundreds of non-designated historic structures that line our city's business corridors that define the unique and identifiable character of our neighborhoods.

Some officials in public service department could care less about such details as I have experienced this firsthand as a Clintonville area commissioner a few years ago when they proposed a 14-foot-wide excavation through a city-designated nature preserve in the historic old beach walled neighborhood.

Their plans were to construct a 10-foot-wide, 205-foot-long asphalt bike trail.

But pressure from the old beachwall neighbors, the HRC, Clintonville area commission, and the Wrex and Parks reduced the width significantly, and the asphalt was replaced with a fine crushed limestone.

When city departments, such as public service and utilities put out bid documents for projects, such as wheelchair ramps, curb replacement, or any other projects that may be disruptive to the character of our historic districts, those bid documents should, at the very least, specify that contractors bidding on these projects be familiar with the Secretary of Interior standards for the treatment of historic properties.

And bidders should also be required to provide a sample of restoration projects that they have completed work on that is relative to the project that they are bidding on.

As for the public service department's complaint about additional cost, the city has been spending hundreds of thousands of dollars for new expensive, fancy granite curbs and flower granite bed beds, bed beds in areas of downtown the Soyota Peninsula, near East Side, and others to enhance and protect the investments of the mayor's campaign contributing development community.

Why shouldn't German Village and other historic districts receive the same treatment and benefits?

And just real quick, I wanted to say, in terms of the COA and trying to get these COAs done quickly, they can be done administratively.

And my friend Mr.

Dvalis, he realizes that as well.

And as I already pointed out, these brick sidewalks and curbs are in fact a part of historic character of that German village, not just structures, as he kind of mentioned.

Sure, COAs are primarily given for structures, but this is a it's it's it's uh it's a detail that you cannot just ignore.

So thank you.

Oh, Joe, thank you for take your flowers.

Thank you for your um continued advocacy.

I think you know, uh, this is why we're having the hearing today.

You mentioned uh the beach walled that bike path, and this is when we are at our best, when we are working together and when we have the input of the community, right?

I think throughout this process, I think that's where that's what we were trying to get through, right?

It feels as if we met a stalemate and then uh other decisions were made and we are where we are now, right?

And so I'm certainly taking all of the feedback that folks are giving to us tonight to take that into account for how then we move forward.

But I just want to thank you.

I want to thank you for coming out tonight, and I want to thank you for your commitment to the city because you prove it again and again, sir.

And thank you.

I've worked in the construction industry for 40 years.

I've poured concrete and everything else and formed it and curbs and sidewalks, and you all can work together.

You know you can.

It needs to happen.

It's not that it's not that big of a problem.

So please thank you.

So now we have Courtney, tell me how to say your last name.

The rain.

Well, it was so close.

Okay, Raquel Colon and then John Clark.

All right, thank you.

I'm Courtney Thrane, executive director of German Village Society.

Thank you to Council Members Beatty and Barossa dipedia for having us here today.

Close your eyes.

Remember a great accomplishment.

I can remember mine.

It was 2019.

I was leading a downtown Main Street's district in Framinghan, Massachusetts.

I collaborated with the city's public works department to develop a sidewalk activation ordinance.

Later, I served as a municipal employee in economic development, where I met with a public service department to discuss how infrastructure supports the city's economic goals.

Earlier this year, I became the executive director of German Village Society.

As a certified city planner, I live and breathe comparative analysis and best practices.

And I know you do too.

Cities around the country embrace historic materials for three reasons.

One, climate resiliency, two, fiscal risk management, and three, highly sought-after local character that drives our tourism economy.

Investing in durable historic materials can be accomplished through bonds, where lifelong materials justify financing and protect credit discipline.

This upfront investment reduces rework and better handles freeze freeze thaw cycles.

The German village is a top three tourist destination in the city.

Thousands of global visitors come for something immersive and different.

Our property taxes contribute over $15 million a year.

That wealth goes to the city, where it can be redistributed to other neighborhoods.

But on a personal note, I'm the executive director of German Village Society.

The villagers are counting on me to collaborate with the city on many issues, traffic calming, abandoned properties, and yes, accessibility.

As a city planner, I fully support accessibility.

I worked at the VA for four years, processing disability claims for veterans.

As discussed, the city has a set of procedures and how to how to install ADA ramps that incorporate historic materials.

I encourage you to explore those procedures and compare them to all of the work done in 2024.

I'm proud to share that GBS helps residents pay for the restoration of brick sidewalks.

Over the past two years, we've supported nearly 20 projects, counting for over 4,000 square feet of sidewalk restoration, including the conversion from concrete to brick.

We do not want to see our work undone if these bricks are later converted back to concrete.

I humbly come to you as an experienced public-private collaborator, and I urge you to explore the research on fiscal management and the vast benefits of historic infrastructure that aligns with the city's goals around climate change resiliency, tourism, and yes, accessibility.

Please require the COA review process for the city.

Investing in German Village is an investment in all of the city's neighborhoods.

Now, close your eyes again and envision your next great accomplishment.

Collaborating with German Village to further enhance and protect its beneficial infrastructure.

Thank you.

Thank you.

I just want to say thank you.

They picked the best woman for the job.

Just so congratulations.

Bringing it home for us is Belinda Spinosi.

Did I say that right?

I hope so.

Okay.

Okay.

Yes, thank you.

So I was gonna say good afternoon.

I suppose it's evening now.

Um council members, and and thank you for your time and consideration today.

Uh, my name is Raquel Cologne.

I'm the I serve as a public affairs manager for Columbia Gas.

Uh first, I want to express my deep appreciation for the German village historic community and the city of Columbus.

Uh, your dedication to preserving this neighborhood while serving residents is something we value greatly.

As you know, uh our work to upgrade and maintain our underground underground infrastructure is essential for safety and reliability.

While these projects can be disruptive, we take seriously our responsibility to restore the work areas and protect the beauty of German village.

We continue to partner with the German Village Society to preserve the historic nature of the community through intentional sidewalk and street restoration.

The partnership has been a success as we continue to upgrade our aging infrastructure, which includes typically one to two projects a year in German village.

However, not all of our work can be planned.

Uh emergencies happen, and when they do, our top priority is safety.

Safety for life, property, and our team members.

Uh that's why immediate access and cooperation during urgent situations is critical.

Requiring additional approval could cause delays to vital emergency maintenance and create unnecessary safety concerns.

We trust the city administration to make decisions that best serve the community, and we will continue to adhere to the requirements and expectations in place.

We are proud of the strong relationships we have with the permitting team, the inspectors, and city leadership.

And moving forward, we remain committed to open communication, upholding restoration standards, and work collaborative working collaboratively with the historical society and the city of Columbus to ensure that German village remains safe for generations to come.

That's all thank you.

Thank you for being here this evening.

Um, I think it's also just important that I will say we both from uh working with our contractors and also working with utilities.

I think this is a place where we all need to get better.

I think you know, we've had challenges.

We talked about this on up front about this on the south side that we've had folks continuously coming down, um, that we've held our contractors uh accountable and also ensuring that we're working better with our utility partners so that they are also honoring the commitment that we make to our community and that they are also a partner with us in that historic preservation, or even just uh replacing, right, what the disturbances that they make.

And so um, I know that's something that we need to continue to work on together, but I appreciate you uh being here today, and I appreciate your testimony.

Thank you.

Thank you.

John Clark, good to see you again, my friends.

The podium is yours, and then Anthony Meyer and Belinda Spinosi.

Hi, my name is John Clark.

Um, I came here today with a very nicely written statement for you.

Two minutes and 55 seconds.

And um But I heard some things coming from the front of the room that I just have to uh respond to instead of reading my statement.

Four words of advice on the way up here.

I was told, don't be too cocky.

Robert, I will try.

I promise.

But like Mike Gallagher said, no one here doesn't want ADA ramps.

We all want ADA ramps.

I'm a tour guide.

I would love to have every ramp in place so that I can show more visitors our incredible neighborhood.

But I believe the federal government ruled in 1990 that uh cities had to start putting ADA ramps in.

1990.

I wish we had been given the opportunity for a presentation like we saw from the city, because I'm sure we could have done a pretty good job too, but we wouldn't have shown Karen Peters negotiating these uh wonderfully installed wheelchair ramps.

I would have shown you wheelchair ramps, and it applies to just about everyone in the city.

When it rains, and every one of them is under three or four inches of water.

I have shown pictures of this to council members as recently as three or four weeks ago.

They all said, I didn't know this happens.

Well, where's the engineering department when you need to hear important information like that?

Um I've heard we're willing to work with the German Village Society.

Well, of course you are.

If you accept federal grant money, you have to, don't you?

Isn't that one of the uh uh one of the things that goes along with accepting federal grant money for this type of project?

You are required to work with the neighborhood.

I heard an engineer say the uh costs have risen to the point where we may have six times the amount of cost to put these um sandstone curbs in.

I'd like to know where those numbers came from.

The German Village Society has offered to help pay for materials to raise money and help pay for materials to get this done correctly.

We were told no thanks.

Not enough sandstone available?

Probably not in the sandstone banks, but the quarry is still in operation, and it can still be had.

Someone mentioned all of the calls and uh all of the time that's been put forward in trying to help with emergencies and with various situations in German Village.

I would say if that work was done correctly the first time, maybe you wouldn't have so many complaints.

And you know, after all of this, we haven't even touched on brick streets where we're beginning to see asphalt drop into potholes.

And that was never the intent of any agreement between the German Village Society, its members, and the city.

So I urge you to reject this ordinance and let's look for a better way.

Stay right there.

Um I did ask the department.

Uh, we did ask the department the pictures, you showed me the pictures.

I promised you that I would get you an answer.

So I did ask them if they could prepare a um response to just the pooling around that we're seeing around the ramps.

So if I could hand it over to them to talk about that.

Yes, council member.

So um, yeah, curb ramps when when we're installing them.

So a lot of these ramps that are going in are in locations that did not have a ramp, right?

So we're we're putting them in.

There was a curb all the way around there.

Um we are now when you know we we have the ramps have certain grades that we need to hit.

Uh we can go to like a four percent slope.

We're meeting that up with the slope.

Eventually now you have a spot at these ramps where there is no, I'll say for a better term, a curb that's behind that, right?

So the water is going to, you've got kind of a flat spot there.

Now, will water sit there?

Yeah, there's a chance it's going to sit there.

It does sit there on occasions, usually within 24 hours or less, that water is usually gone.

Um, and it works its way towards a storm inlet or or just dissipates.

But um we do uh we do look at that.

If water were to sit there for over a day, we're gonna go out and look at it and try to see how we can correct it.

But again, picture you've got an area now, you've got two, you've got a cross slope of a road, meaning a cross slope now with a curb ramp that's the basically the sidewalks lowered, right?

And you do have that area there that is has potential for pooling to happen.

So when that water does eventually go away, it leaves almost as much dirt and refuse behind as the water that was there originally.

So what I would say.

So what I would say is I if there are specific problematic curves that you're every one of them.

Great.

So every one of them, then you should give us a list so that then you can share that with the department so that they can go back in and then look at those, because I think that's the way that we can get the solution.

So happy to do that.

So if if someone wants to send that over to us, then we can get it to the department or send it to the department, and then we can start to take a look at those.

Okay, thank you.

Absolutely.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Before we start the timer, Anthony Hartke had submitted to speak this evening.

He received confirmation through email that he would be on the list to speak.

Anthony Hartke is present and asked that we make sure he's added to the list of speakers.

Is that a possibility?

Yes, that's fine.

Very good.

Thank you.

Hi.

Good evening.

Thank you for the long evening.

My name is Anthony Meyer.

I'm currently the president of the German Village Society.

I'm here to speak on behalf of the society and the residents that have come forward against this proposal.

I have been a resident of Italian Village, Victorian Village, and German Village.

So it's extremely important to me as I will show in just a second.

Um I'm coming forward to ensure that we reject this proposal.

You're being asked today to declare an emergency to overturn a court ruling.

We ask you instead to declare a partnership and to join us as true caretakers of a legacy.

Caretakers of a legacy is not just historic preservation, but it is building a community.

And you can see in the video, she was at the Durham Village Society, and she is one of our members.

And so we want to support her and others that would need accessibility.

But in order to do so, I want to really talk about everything that you heard this evening so we can put it into three major groups.

The first group is the accountability crisis.

The city claims the COA process is a burden.

Our experience proves that the it is the only necessary check on a system that is failing us.

I submit two immediate practical arguments against this bill.

You heard tonight about the lack of oversight and poor execution.

We see the consequences, consequences of this execution daily.

City subcontractors operating without effective oversight are currently destroying priceless historic materials.

Standards are ignored, and the cost of repair, both financial and cultural, falls back on the homeowners and the community.

This legislation removes the only independent process that could enforce accountability.

Direct damage to private property.

While it's a right of way, even the sidewalk at my home is adjacent to and it's attached to the foundation of my home.

This lack of accountability results in direct physical damage to our homes.

Residents are experiencing experiencing damage caused by reckless right of way work.

The COA process is the essential guardrail that protects private investment and property from government negligence.

We cannot allow the city to remove the one mechanism that protects our homes.

The second group that we need to talk about is the economic and financial reality.

Citywide value.

The argument that preservation is too costly is short-sighted.

That ignores the massive citywide economic value generated by our historic districts.

In fact, preservation is smart finance.

Critical tourism engine.

Durman Village is a major tourism magnet magnet for Columbus tourists.

And they don't come to see concrete, they come to experience our authentic brick streets, sandstone curbs, and the historic streetscapes.

Tourist stop in front of my home on a regular basis.

Removing the COA is a direct threat to the very features that drive tourism revenue for the entire city.

Talent recruitment and quality of life.

When corporations recruit top talent, they sell the quality of life in Columbus.

Our historic neighborhoods are the key asset in that sale.

Protecting these neighborhoods is protecting our ability to grow and attract the best and brightest to our neighbors.

With this said, I know I'm at time, but instead I just want to ask that you reject this bill.

And at the end of the day, Durman Village Society and all concerned citizens as true caretakers of legacy.

We ask that you join us in collaboration in order to save our historic communities for generations to come.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um actually we're gonna Belinda and then Anthony, we did get your written testimony.

It was not confirmed that you were gonna speak.

I'm gonna let it, I'm gonna let you, but it was written testimony, and you did not ask to speak.

So Belinda, come on down.

Thank you for this opportunity to speak and staying with us for such a long period of time.

My name is Belinda Spinocy.

I am a disability advocate, and I have a little experience in a historic neighborhood.

I'm a Victorian Village kid in 62.

My parents moved there so I could go to first grade at Hubbard Avenue.

And the interesting enough, the city was pouring concrete over bricks on the sidewalks, and there were no cups at the time, and eventually over the streets.

And I remember the pitter pitter pitter of cars going up and down on the bricks.

A few years later, my mentor, Mrs.

Judge and Mrs.

Seder, and then my mother started assigning me duties to the seniors in the neighborhood who are being imprisoned because they couldn't get out of their homes and walk down the sidewalk because of the bricks in the street, because they hadn't completed all of it yet.

They couldn't cross the street, and I was responsible for taking care of them.

And that informed my vision of what help humanity needs.

So when we're talking about access for people with disabilities, we're talking about all of us.

Get cancer.

The goal is for all of us to age, and we're going to need aids that we can live lifelong in.

Those bricks, those sandstone curb cuts, those streets with bricks line is prohibiting a quality of life that they're they're professing that they're trying to protect.

But actually, it's imprisoning our humanity.

If you can't get out of your home to go and participate in your church, go to the grocery store, visit your family.

Or if your home is not accessible, that your friend and your loved one is in a wheelchair and can't get to you.

What kind of quality of life are we talking about?

And those bricks and those sandstone, even if you put them in new, the rain is going to deplete them over time.

I saw that in my neighborhood.

We're talking about the health and safety of our humanity of our city of Columbus.

We're asking you to protect all of us from now on.

The decisions that you make now impacts you, your children, your grandchildren, your great grandchildren for eternity.

Karen just explained to them that they're going to be in prison too if they don't get a hold of this, if they don't create access now.

And the gentleman is absolutely correct.

The Americans of Disabilities Act required you in 1990 to look at this.

And this conversation having Councilmember Barossa DePadilla.

You and I have sat in cacti meetings when we've had some of these difficult conversations.

And we're just now building the infrastructure for this to happen.

This is a sad event that we've had to come to this.

But I thank German Village for throwing us in it so that we would be forced to deal with it.

And any committee meeting, you sit with them, I want you to have us there.

Because they need to understand that since 1990, they too have been responsible for making their neighborhood accessible.

Not just you, them too.

Every business in Columbus, every school, every nursing home, every doctor's office.

It has been a long time coming.

And even before that, the rehabilitation act was passed in 1973.

What are we waiting on?

Why are we hurting our own people?

This is just a little bit more emotional just to get to you, ma'am, today.

Councilmember, the mayor locked the elevators on us again tonight.

This is just appalling that we have to keep going through this every time.

Every time we come to see you, I'm going through it.

To go down to have dinner in German village, you we can't even go.

And that's a traditional red line.

That's what that is.

Those red bricks is just like FDR put out the red line so that the men poor members and black members of the community couldn't build decent homes.

That's a red line down there when you put bricks.

We can't get in them.

And I know I've taken your time, but there's a lot said here, a lot done tonight, a long time coming, and I'm very afraid for our humanity.

Thank you, Belinda.

Thank you for your continued advocacy.

I know that this is something that you work on, and we've had many conversations.

Um I apologize for the elevators.

And no call out to ensure that everyone has to be able to do that.

You did it on purpose to get for tonight.

Thank you.

Come on down.

Anthony?

Apologies for the confusion.

That uh is on me.

Uh council members, appreciate your time.

My name's Anthony Hartke.

I live at uh 366 Jackson Street, and I'm the current chair of the German Village Commission.

Uh I would have hoped I would have been down here to give testimony earlier in the in the event, but I only found out through the Jordanville Society this was happening tonight.

Uh I do have tons I can present on, but due to time, I will try to keep this as brief as possible under the three minute uh rule.

Uh so first off, why am I here?

15 year village resident.

Uh I work for the largest commercial contractor in the United States to turn our construction in my personal life.

Uh I've got an academic certificate of historic preservation to the University of Cincinnati.

Uh 11 years on the German Village Commission, eight years as the chair, and I have a very strong passion for uh preserving the the built environment in German village specifically.

Um characteristic German village, I think we all admit and we all can agree that the brick streets, the sandstone curbs, the brick sidewalks uh are crucial pieces of German village.

Um in the Secretary of Interior Standards for Preservation, uh it states that the setting, and in terms of a district or a neighborhood in the National Register, the setting is the larger area or environment in which a historic building is located.

It may be an urban, suburban, or rural neighborhood or a natural landscape in which buildings have been constructed.

The relationship of buildings to each other, setbacks, fence patterns, views, driveways, walkways, street trees, and other landscaping together establish the character of a district or a neighborhood.

That's verbatim from National Preservation National Uh Park Service, which administers National Register, which all the way down the line to the certified local government, which Columbus is.

Uh that's how that applies to to all of us here.

Um city's role.

So the city is a certified local government.

Um through the National Preservation Act.

Um National Standards Guidelines state that the important historic properties cannot be replaced if they are destroyed.

Preservation planning provides for conservative use of these properties, preserving them in place and avoiding harm when possible.

Uh avoid altering or destroying properties, uh, doing so only when necessary.

The key to that statement is that the critical first step in preservation uh involves proper and thorough planning.

Um I think that we should separate the concept between the emergency uh responses to to um uh the utility repairs and the ADA ramps.

They're two separate issues.

One was a planned process, the ADA ramps that was done planned poorly.

It wasn't actually gone through the full process, it was given to the contractors out on the site to basically plan on the fly.

Um they were not following the guidelines.

Uh I will not speak towards whether you should get a COA or not.

I think that's for the city to uh go through.

We as the German Village Commission will will uh go accordingly with what's decided.

Um but as far as German Village's uh role is if we read through Columbus City Code, and this is what would take up the most of my time, so I'll just paraphrase for you.

Uh City Code 3119.01 purpose of the commissions.

We have six purposes, three specifically apply today, item B, item E, and item F.

Uh and also under 3119.05 duties, we have 10 duties.

Uh four of those apply today, and that's item D, F, G, and H.

Specifically in relation to items F and H, we run out of time here.

Um, we're the because the commission should help determine what legislation or policy is necessary to preserve the districts.

We've not been engaged in this in this legislation conversation to date.

I'd request that you and involve us in that.

Uh, in relation to item G, uh, which is to advise the mayor and make recommendations on the conservation of city-owned structures and sites uh on any alteration or demolition of a city-owned property right of way uh or park in the designated district.

We should be involved in that conversation to some extent.

We have not been to date.

Uh and item H to review for comment any kind of applications which we do through through COAs.

Uh if the city's not going to apply for a COA, that's that's on you to do.

However, I think at the very end, it's evident by City Code that communication between the city departments and the historic district commissions is very clearly intended to occur.

It has not been happening.

We have been talking to HPO.

HPO staff is great, love James Goodman, love his staff, they help us do our job superbly.

Um, but we have not had a direct contact from any of the city departments through through the transportation through anything else.

Uh the only involvement I've had with this entire ADA ramp in the commission's head with the ramp concept is because I got invited personally as a as a resident by the society to attend those those conversations.

Um and I try I've made it very clear to be uh separate of my personal stance versus the commission stance.

Uh so this is the commission stance is that we should be part of these conversations.

We want to be part of the conversations, we want to help the process, but to date we've been kind of kept at arm's length by the city, and we request to be more involved.

That's all.

I didn't get a chance to look at your written testimony yet.

Did you include basically what is there in the written testimony?

I included there and more.

I'll send this specific statements to you as well.

Perfect, that would be great.

And go bear cats, my daughter's waiting on her.

Go back.

Hopefully, I'm I'm gonna manifest that she's gonna get it on the 12th.

So thank you for being here tonight, and thank you for um your kid, Anthony, come back, come back.

Okay, so in part of your testimony, you raise this issue of the difference between the emergency situation.

So I assume you're referring to the water main.

Water embrace gas breaks, yeah, fixing leaks, all that versus this where there was a RFP and a plan and everything like that.

What would be your suggestion as to how to no, we're not talking about materials or anything like that.

But if we were to have a uh an ordinance, which would be some type of compromise, what would your recommendation be?

And maybe that was in your written testimony.

Sure.

In my written testimony, I did provide as a as two follow-up exhibits.

Uh I had talked to James Goodman offline, the two of us on a private conversation.

Um, I took a stab by some draft legislation on what we could implement to allow for emergency repairs to be done, not skirting the need to have guidelines, not necessarily skirting the COA, if the CSOA is part of that, but to get the work done with the appropriate materials being being addressed, being salvaged, being preserved, if they got to be removed, removed carefully, all that kind of language is there for those who need to take immediate action to take immediate action.

And then once all the work is done and put back in place, there would be some kind of check, be it through the 3M1 department or whoever needs to be the one to check it to verify that yes, the work was replaced in a proper historical way, and if not, then we got to go back and fix what was done incorrectly.

Okay, so it's almost like a COA after the facts.

And have you um had any discussion with you know folks from Victorian Village or Italian village?

Because again, we're we're not we don't want to have these carve-outs for all these different things.

Agreed.

We're looking for something that can you know go across all the historical.

We have not had conversations with them yet to date.

Um I think the important thing to understand is that each district is a bit different.

Sure.

Uh the historic integrity and the of the fabric of the materials that are in German village aren't necessarily still existing in every other.

Uh if the if the brick streets are gone, if the brick sidewalks are gone, if the sandstone curves are relatively gone, if they don't contribute materially to the characteristic of that neighborhood, I don't think it would apply to that neighborhood.

So I don't know those specifically.

I don't focus those, I focus on German village, but I think it would be worthwhile to have those core historic districts, not every architectural review commission, but the core districts to talk and determine is there a a way forward uh on these things so we can make sure the city can get their work done as efficiently as possible so we're not providing any any uh negative impact on the residents that need their work done.

Okay, I mean you know there's been some analogies to what the way we may go forward air commissions and other things like that.

Would your would your group be open to some type of uh excuse the sports analogy, but that we live in Columbus, Ohio.

Some type of shot clock as to a time where you would have to either you know abdicate to the staff or uh make a decision.

So this whole issue of um if a uh certificate of appropriateness was was required, the uh the the applicant would know and have good guidance as to when that would be granted.

Yeah, in emergency situations, I think we we as a commission, we have all situations, not immersion and and yeah, I'm just gonna be able to do that.

So for non-emergency situations, it's hard to say when an applicant will have an answer because if it requires back and forth conversation, some applications take longer to get through.

If we're just replacing a light fixture, easy, done.

If we're talking about tearing down a historic structure or or adding understar structure, there's more nuance to how we address that.

We can't say it's gonna be a one and done.

If they come with a plan that we can approve and then it's per the guidelines, great.

If they come with something that's not per the guidelines, it might take two or three iterations until they can get to it.

We can't design it for them.

That's not the purpose of the commission.

But there are certain things that we have put to staff and say, staff, you can approve these things.

These there's clear guidance, it's objective, just it's good and good, good to go, you're done.

Uh, but certain things just require that conversation because it's a guideline, it's not a prescriptive thou shalt do X, Y, and Z.

Okay.

And then as far as the uh the emergency situation.

Yeah.

Uh I think you've kind of threw out what you were what you proposed.

Emerge situations, if if you have to replace uh a water as water main break.

And if you have to pull up the street, pull up the curb, pull up the side or the brick sidewalks.

If those things exist, pull them up, salvage them, do the work, put them back.

If we're not destroying the materials, it's really a it's a it's no harm, no foul game.

Uh but if it's if it's just concrete everywhere that they're working, tear it up and replace the concrete.

That's it's fine.

It'd be great if we can fix it and go back with brick in the future, but like for like at a minimum, uh the problem we're having is a lot of these contractors, there's no requirement put to them to say, hey, be careful when you're digging, don't throw away the bricks, don't break up the sandstone curbs.

They just go in and start jackhammering in, get it out, fix the water break, and then we have nothing left to put back.

Okay.

Now we gotta spend more money to buy more curbs and everything else.

Yeah, and I just you know, again, thank you very much for your you know ideas, and we'll go back and read that and everything.

And you know, I do want to acknowledge that, you know, although we're not not all nine of us are here, you know, that get that does get circulated to everyone.

But then also I want to let you know that the folks that would be doing the execution, which is the uh which is the departments, their whole leadership team is here.

So this is important to everyone.

And I think we can get there.

I think and like the the commission, we serve at your at your pleasure.

So we're here to make sure the process gets done, and we can do things to accelerate the process.

We just have not been consulted about the process at all.

And we have not had to really deal with it for the past 60 years because there has not been major work happening.

It's onesie twosies.

When these major things happen, that's when everybody kind of gets gets up in arms, because the people who are in charge today weren't in charge 10 years ago the last time a big thing happened.

So there's a lot of lost knowledge as we go through.

And I do want to kick it over to the department for just a second to talk about our policy when we have contractors that are working to that one-to-one replacement.

Can you just talk about what that policy is and where the accountability is?

Um yeah, things um so on like a utility, if there's a private contract, uh, I'll say um, one of our contracts.

One of our this is part of the historic preservation that uh President Pro Tem Dorns is working on because utilities, it's a that's a whole let's put that over here for just a second.

I'm talking about what we know for certain that we can control, which is our contractors who are doing that.

If it's our contractor, uh again, we try to preserve what we can of the materials out there.

That's not always the case, though.

Um I mean, I think Anthony's talking about there is means and methods out there that a contractor needs to uh they come up when they put a bid.

This is how we're going to work on this section, right?

Um, you know, uh, do we we don't dictate means and methods, we do try to uh while we're out there in the field.

Um, you know, uh we're we could be talking about one contractor.

There might have been some areas where they got careless, but there are other times they are not careless and they are doing their best they can.

They're trying to preserve.

Sometimes we don't know until we dig up sandstone whether or not it's even salvageable.

Um we can't we can only see what's uh and I'm I'm gonna talk about curb ramps right now, because that that's kind of where we're where this all kind of started from with our ADA program.

So we're getting into some sections until we can until we can excavate out and they can excavate and and expose it and pull that up.

We don't know if that curb can even be salvaged.

So yeah, there's I I wouldn't necessarily say there's a policy.

I don't know if we've had that.

We've had you know, per se, but we again we're out there in the field, we're we try to save what we can.

We're not out there.

The city itself, we're not out there trying to be careless ourselves.

Um we do have contractors.

We have there's a lot of private work that goes on in all throughout the city.

Um we're out there trying to watch them, but we could have on any given day, uh, I'll I'll speak on private work.

You know, we could have 60 to 80, sometimes a hundred different jobs, just private jobs going on at the same time on the same day.

And we do try to get out to every job when they call for inspections, but sometimes we just can't be there a hundred percent of the time.

Um but we do go out there and do our best to make sure that what they're doing is not reckless.

Um that's the best we can, you know, that's what we try to do.

Yeah.

Thank you, thank you, Anthony.

Thank you for um your testimony, and thank you, um, Jim, for that response.

I think you know, that response just illustrates um, I think that's that's the place where we can work together, right?

That's a place where, you know, again, as we speak, as we talk about historic preservation, where what is a process, what does the accountability look like?

That's something that I think we're continuing to talk about because I think as a growing city, um, this is top of mind for us, not just in historic preservation areas, but you know, I live on a link us corridor, you know, and my main street is going to look very different for me in the future, right?

And so we're particularly interested in how how do we um have intentional uh infrastructure that is built on those main corridors, but then what does the built environment around that look like and how does it support the growth that we have, how does it support um the environment?

So this is an ongoing conversation that we're having.

So thank you.

You you don't have to hang out up here.

The commissions are here to help.

Let us when it comes to the standard drawings to things like that.

We're happy to review those ahead of time.

We're not saying we need to COA it.

But if they haven't been presented at all to us, we can't say you can't make a statement that the commission has looked at this and they're okay with it.

That might mitigate some neighborhood conversations of all the commission says okay, they're the first line of defense.

I think it might help the city as a whole to better leverage the commissions and those kind of things.

Got it.

Thank you.

Um, so that was our y'all hung in there.

We did it.

Two hours and 45 minutes.

Um, thank you all.

I I just want to say um, first of all, I know that there were lots of emotions in this chamber tonight, and I'm going to end where I started.

I think it's because we all love where we live, right?

And I wish that every hearing could look like this.

I wish that every hearing could have these kind of discussions.

I wish that even when we see each other and we hear each other and we put the emotion aside.

Um I had no doubt or I want to be clear about this.

And you know, Councilmember Beatty and I, as a former uh German villager, I lived in Marion Village for 11 years.

Um, you know, as we talk to uh President Pro Ten Dorms, who's who has lived in multiple neighborhoods in the city.

We want to preserve this, we want to preserve what makes our neighborhoods great, and that's in every part of the city.

I want to preserve it in, I believe that there's beauty and there's joy and there is pride in every neighborhood, even if it doesn't have all of the charm of a sandstone curb and brick streets, it still has its character, and everybody wants to preserve that because that's the place that they love.

And so there was never there for us, it wasn't about historic preservation versus accessibility.

It was never about that.

I want folks to know that.

I didn't come into this hearing about that.

I wanted to ensure though, that accessibility is top of mind for us.

I think the point that we made around 1990.

Y'all, I just turned 49.

1990, I was like a freshman in high school, right?

So I think when we think about, we are way behind as a city on many things on getting more sidewalks on getting more accessibility, getting more ADA ramps, right?

There's a lot that we need to work on together.

And I'm glad that people are coming with a heart of uh of wanting to work together.

This isn't an us against them or an us against them.

This is us wanting the same thing.

What we differed on is the strategy in the approach.

And I want to be clear on that because I don't want anyone to leave here today.

I want folks to leave here today uh feeling hopeful about what is to come next, not leaving here like they didn't feel heard, certainly not by us, that they didn't feel welcome.

Belinda, I take responsibility for the elevator.

I should have thought about that.

That wasn't an intentional thing, it's something that happens.

That's a place where we need to get better, right?

Throughout the evening, what I heard today was you know, preservation doesn't have to be um up against progress, like it needs to be both, right?

I heard about the passion of our community.

I heard about um uh the work that we need to do together to get to the result that we want.

So I want to thank everyone for hanging in there tonight.

I want to thank you for all for your advocacy.

I want to thank you for loving this community.

The strength of any part of Columbus is tied to the strength of every part of Columbus.

And um I I appreciate that folks are putting so much effort into ensuring that this is uh part of the fabric of who we are, that at a time when we talk about so much that is happening in the world.

I think it's interesting that there are parts of us that want to give up history and parts of us that want to cling on to history um and and honor it, right?

Um, and that is not something that is lost on me or on council member Beatty or on any member of council.

Again, I think this is just about approach.

I also want to say that um the folks in public service, I've heard lots of different things.

I've I've chaired this committee for four years.

We have folks who love and care about the city just as much, just as much.

And they are looking for solutions as well.

And so they are our partners in this work, and so I just want to ensure that as we move together as a community, that there's always dignity and respect in the work that each one of us does and the part that each one of us plays in making this a city that we all um care about and making it a city that is continued uh to be open for all.

So we are taking into account all of the comments and all of the testimony from this evening.

We're sifting through the 70 plus testimonies that we got.

As of now, the way the process will work now, and I want to be very clear on what we're talking about.

We are talking about our access to the right of way.

That's what this code is about.

Any changes to that, any amendments to that, anything that we are thinking about before we put it on the agenda, that will be taken into consideration as of now.

First read, what that means is it's on the agenda.

You won't hear it out loud.

That will be on the 8th.

And then for consideration for a vote, that would not be until December 15th.

So I want to put that out there because any pictures, any additional testimony, anything else that folks want to share with us, you have up until that time to do so.

Okay.

So with that, I want to thank the department, all of the departments that were here tonight.

Thank you for your presentation.

I want to thank all of our residents for being here tonight.

Thank you for again your impassioned testimony.

I hope that you all have a good evening, get home safe, and have a happy holiday season.