Welcome back to this weekly meeting of the community planning and housing committee with Denver City Council.

Your community planning and housing committee starts now.

All right.

Um think about that.

Okay.

Great.

Thank you, Tim.

Um, so this is the community planning and housing committee of Denver City Council.

Um we will have, I think, one presentation today and no action items, which we're excited about and have been planning for a while.

Um I am the committee chair and council member at large, Sarah Parity, and I will start with introductions of other council members starting online, I think.

Good afternoon, everyone, and here on the bond, Northwest Denver District 1.

Can you hear me?

Yep.

Okay, council president.

Councilman Cross.

Thank you.

Jamie Torres, West Denver District 3.

Hi, folks.

All right, and hopefully other people circle in a little bit.

Um, but um, I will let DHA introduce all of yourselves and uh take it away.

We're excited.

Absolutely.

Thank you so much for having us uh today here on the community planning and housing committee.

Um this is a pleasure for us.

Um, you know, having this opportunity to talk a little bit uh about the housing choice voucher programs that we're managing.

My name is Joaquin Sintelumbea, I am the Chief Executive Officer, uh, Deputy Housing Authority.

Hello, and thank you as well.

My name is Loretta Owens.

I'm the Housing Choice Bachelor Program Director.

Good afternoon, Joshua Crowley, Chief Operating Officer and General Counsel.

Hi.

Good afternoon, Stephanie Sheeman, the director of communications and public affairs at the Denver Housing Authority.

Great.

Thanks for bringing um such a strong team today.

Awesome.

So we we want to uh keep the presentation uh brief uh because we believe that it is very important to have a conversation with you about these specific topic.

So today we aim to provide perspective about the programs and the crucial challenge, of course, that we are facing uh today, as you know.

Um and very important for us is to provide perspective not only to to the committee but also to those members of the community that uh may not be familiar uh with uh our programs and want to know uh more or to get a to get a better understanding of of how uh they work and operate, including of course the number of resources that we are uh managing.

So for for us that is very important, uh acknowledging the individuals that may be having access to these broadcasts.

So again, we will keep this presentation very brief to allow for uh a good conversation uh in the end uh with you and to answer any questions that uh you may have.

Josh.

Thank you.

All right, I'm gonna give you guys a little bit of background on housing choice voucher program uh and DHA specifically.

So I'm gonna start with we are referring to the housing choice voucher program, which you might have heard referred to previously as the Section Eight program.

So several years ago had changed the nomenclature.

So Section 8, HCV, same program, HCV is the current uh current name of the program.

Housing choice voucher, public housing are two different things.

DHA manages both.

So we have our housing choice voucher program, which is what we're here to uh talk to you about today.

We also have our public housing program, which are the properties that DHA actually owns and manages within the city, two different programs funded through different sources through HUD.

And then the last uh distinction that I want to make is within the HCV program, and by the way, we're gonna throw a ton of acronyms at you today.

So if any of them uh if you're not familiar with any of them, please ask.

Tenant-based vouchers versus project-based vouchers.

Those are two different kinds of vouchers that we administer within the housing choice voucher program.

A tenant-based voucher is given to a participant, they go out into the market, they find a unit that a housing provider is willing to rent to them, and they sign a lease with that housing provider.

Project-based vouchers, we take, we are allowed to take a certain percentage of our vouchers and project base them.

So rather than being tied to the participant who is out in the market, as with the tenant-based voucher, a project-based voucher we actually take and we put that on a unit.

And so that assistance is now tied to a unit, and individuals can come and go from that unit, but the assistance stays there.

Okay.

The HCB program is really impactful for our participants and reducing housing instability and in our community at large.

And I'm gonna talk a little bit about uh about those things.

So the first thing is that the HCB program expands access to safe and affordable housing.

And you're gonna hear me say a lot today, participant choice.

So the HCB program provides participant choice for safe and affordable housing options for our folks.

It stabilizes families and reduces homelessness.

We also support the local housing market, specifically.

Most of our housing providers are what we refer to as mom and pops.

They have one to a handful of units.

They're not big corporate landlords that own entire apartment buildings.

We have some of that, but the vast majority of our housing providers own five or fewer units.

And so, really, the housing choice voucher program is an economic engine in the community for those for those housing providers.

We also uh housing choice voucher also promotes economic opportunity and mobility.

Again, participant choice.

If they're not happy in their current unit after the end of their lease, they can move somewhere else if they choose to do that.

And finally, uh HCV allows us to leverage federal investment for local impact.

And for example, this year, DHA is budgeted to spend 142 million dollars in housing assistance payments in the community with our housing providers.

So that is a that is an enormous financial impact that the HCB program is having right here in the Denver in the Denver community.

We are administering a little under 8,600 vouchers of various types, and Loretta is gonna is gonna talk a little bit about what those different types of vouchers that we have are.

We are assisting over 19,000 very low, low and moderate income individuals in the city.

Again, we talked about participant choice, geographic choice.

Individuals have the opportunity to take their voucher anywhere they want within the city and county of Denver, and in some circumstances outside the city and county of Denver.

We talked about preventing homelessness and housing instability with the rents and the rent burdens that we know are prevalent in the Denver area right now.

This prevents uh evictions, it prevents shelter entry.

And then the last piece is that DHA has a huge commitment to this program.

In 2025, we have a budgeted HCB department of over 70 dedicated employees just to the HCB program.

So that shows the commitment that that those federal dollars and the DHA is making to the HCB program.

Loretta.

So just in general, as Josh mentioned, we're um serving almost 8,600 individuals, and that's families within the community with our housing choice voucher.

One thing to note that the housing choice voucher program in and of itself is the, you know, is the umbrella of the 8600.

Of that, we are allowed to project base up to 30% of those vouchers.

So this is not a separate set of vouchers associated with project basing, it is us project basing a percentage of the tenant-based vouchers.

We also have what I like to call and refer to as boutique vouchers, and those are special program vouchers that serve special populations, like our veterans, our non-elderly but disabled families, and our non-elderly disabled individuals as well.

Um we also have vouchers that um provide a subsidy to our foster youth and families, so those are individuals between the ages of 18 and 24 that are exiting the foster care program, and also families that are exiting the foster care programs.

And uh, of course, our veterans are vouchers as well.

So there's a little boutique, what I like to call special programs that we administer.

That is about a thousand or so boutique vouchers that are associated with those programs.

Again, those are vouchers that are inside of the tenant-based program.

We do have some vouchers that are outside of that umbrella, such as you may have heard of the emergency housing assistant vouchers, which are going away as the program comes to an end here next year.

But yeah, so that's it.

Pretty much for the vouchers.

I want to talk a little bit about the payment standards.

And so when we're talking about payment standards, Josh mentioned earlier about affordability in the community.

The vouchers and the payment standards associated with those vouchers allow us to determine affordability.

So the fair market rent is set by HUD, and what PHAs are allowed to do is to set their voucher payment standards anywhere between 90 to 110% of the FMRs.

You are allowed to go up to 120% of the FMRs if you're under operating under a waiver or under special permission through HUD.

The HCB program was operating last year at 120% of the uh FMR, which so our payment standards were set at that 120% level.

However, we have since reduced that to 100% of the fair market rent.

So right now our payment standards are set at 100%.

And we when we make that decision, we look at current rents, what housing providers are currently asking in our program and what the rents are going for in the area, as well as our budget authority to set it based off what you know is happening with the budget at that point in time.

And now we'll have uh talk about income limits.

So a lot of the times uh individuals in the public hear about uh talk about income limits.

Income limits is the income limit that families are um assessed with at the time to determine qualification of the program.

So we're looking at what the families can afford based off of or the families entering into the program based off of the area median income.

And so the area meaning income is what we're also referring to as income limits here, and you have them here on the screen, is also in your packets.

Um, and then uh we also set once they're on the program, the families are set at 30 to 40 percent of their income when they're out searching for unit to make sure that they maintain affordability.

So, while having this conversation, uh we believe that is very important to you know discuss this within the context of affordability and what that means.

Uh, in a way, again, you know, uh in consideration of those individuals uh including uh council members and members of the committee, but members of our community, so they can truly understand not only uh the opportunity that we have uh about managing these programs and resources, but uh the challenge that we're facing.

And so we uh as one community, how can we uh find solutions to that housing crisis?

So when we're talking about a housing crisis, I believe that is also very important uh defining what that means from the context of the individuals that are uh either or uh participating uh through the programs or uh looking forward to getting that housing stability opportunity.

So I have a very personal definition about what a housing crisis means.

And uh in my opinion, a housing crisis should be defined by the challenging conditions that families, individuals they are facing, and therefore any solution to that crisis should be focused on improving those conditions.

So we're talking about social determinants of health and things like that that may affect uh those families that are working or getting their ways to achieving uh whatever is necessary to get that angle of affordable uh housing.

So I want to start by showcasing uh our 2026 uh minimum wage uh for Denver, which is going to increase from eighteen dollars and eighty-one cents to $19 dollars and twenty-nine cents an hour again in 20 uh 26, effective January 1st.

Uh on paper, that sounds like progress.

Of course, we are increasing that uh uh minimum wage, but but it's not really uh progress in the sense of is that enough for families and individuals to get access to affordable housing, right?

So it is not enough uh from the context of meeting uh the rising cost of living that we are facing here, specifically that segment of the population.

So this figure represents uh the hard working residents of our city.

Uh and those are the people that are serving food, cleaning buildings, caring for our children and elderly, and yet uh even working full time uh at this wage, they are being priced out of the very communities uh that they serve.

And across the nation, as you know, 30% of income is the benchmark for affordable housing.

Uh spend more than that, and families uh then they must choose between rent and child care or food, but in Denver, uh far too many are spending currently 40, 50, even 60 percent of their income just to keep uh a roof overhead.

And that is the reality that we're facing.

So the result of course is that families are falling behind, savings vanish, uh, and stability disappears for those families.

Uh at Denver's minimum wage, a full-time worker can afford roughly 1,03 a month uh for rent before they are considered cost important.

Uh but we need to be mindful and let's be clear 1,003 uh doesn't get any given family, uh it isn't one bedroom uh uh apartment anywhere near the city's uh core.

So what this means is uh for working families that they are being pushed further from opportunity, away from schools, uh transit, and jobs.

While their commute, which is an additional consideration, uh is also an element that is rising their cost of living.

As you know, the average full-time worker puts in about 173 hours a month, uh, 40 hours a week, every week.

And they they show up.

I mean, those families, those individuals, they they truly uh show up, they put in the work that is necessary.

But despite their commitment, those hours no longer guarantee stability.

Uh and it is not again, it is not a lack of effort, uh, it is a mismatch between wages and rent.

And today, the fair market rent for a two-bedroom home in Denver is $2089 a month.

That is what uh the fair market for a two-bedroom apartment currently is, and that is the price tag, basically.

If we want to get into a somehow uh, you know, uh regional goal, that is the price tag of the American dream in our city, 2089 uh dollars.

And it is slipping out of the reach uh for too many families right now.

For families, teachers, nurses, and service workers, uh, this definitely marks the difference between stability and displacement.

So to afford a two-bedroom home in Denver, the worker earning minimum wage must uh put in nearly 361 hours every month.

Uh that is more hours than physically possible uh in a single job, and that is the the reality.

It is uh the reality of people that is and or are juggling multiple shifts, uh missing time with their children, which is even perhaps more important and finding exhaustion just to keep up, just to achieve uh something that uh some of us we are taking from for granted, right?

Um, so to rent a two-bedroom home within this context in Denver today, any given family or head of household will need 2.08 full-time jobs.

And let's think about that.

That means that a person will need to work more than 80 hours per week, and still, if they achieve those 80 hours, they still will fall short.

So that's a huge element of consideration here.

And again, this is not a personal failure.

Policy failure, right?

And the math, the math is clear.

And more than that, I think that the mandate is urgent.

We must close the gap between wages and rent so that one job and only one job is enough.

So this additional slide is basically telling the story of Denver in one snapshot.

Our minimum wage, 1929, $19.29 cents is standing in stark contrast to the $40.17 cents hourly wage that it takes to afford a modest home here in Denver.

A family should not need to work 360 hours a month or juggle to full-time jobs just to stay housed.

And then again, we are seeing a whole bunch of numbers, but this is not just math.

I believe that in the end it becomes a moral equation, right?

How can we build the necessary conditions for a group, some many most, uh, preferably uh everybody can truly afford a place to go home here in Denver.

But then again, I believe that we have the power to change that.

And again, by investing in affordable housing, uh housing affordability, uh to you know, stabilize budgets and in doing that, uh stabilizing uh the lives of those that we uh so proudly serve.

So in connection to that story, and and then again I I went through those numbers just to provide some context about not only what we are managing but what this truly means in in the practice and the challenges that we are facing, right?

As of today, the federal government remains in a partial shutdown with key negotiations in Congress still on an uh impasse over spending uh priorities, and while uh essential services they continue, make many housing and community development programs are facing delays.

Um I feel appropriate to say, and this is uh our commitment that Denver Housing Authority is closely and will continue to closely monitor the situation uh to ensure continuity of our operations and of course the protection of uh the resident services that we provide.

And our message is clear uh stability for families cannot wait on politics.

And I will repeat that.

Uh stability for families cannot wait on on politics.

So we will stay proactive, transparent, and ready to respond as soon as a resolution is reached, uh is reached, of course.

Um also to provide additional perspective over the past seven years and perspective uh about uh the commitment and the great work that those that are in this room, uh, but most importantly, those that came before us, the work that they have been doing to, you know, maintaining afloat the programs and serving as many families as possible.

So over the past seven years, DHA's average yearly per unit cost has surged beyond 1400 dollars.

And yet, DHA provides housing stability for many for as many residents as our resources allow.

And this is important because I believe that this is a testament, this is evidence about the discipline, stewardship, operational efficiency, and the ability that DHA has employed over the many years and decades to maximize every federal federal uh dollar, even though we are uh behaving and living within an environment that is uh hugely over regulated and very well underfunded.

That is the reality of many housing authorities across the board uh and across the the nation.

So looking forward and uh I think that the key takeaway here is that the housing choice voucher strategy that we have at DHA is one that is laser focused.

Uh we are aiming looking forward to maximize the utilization through a data-driven management approach.

What that means is that we are intentional about ensuring that the populations that we are serving and those programs that Loretta were uh describing uh prior are uh mirroring the different segments of our population, and that we have in place those programs that are going to uh ensure a streamlined uh process so we can be more effective and more efficient in providing the services that we provide, meaning housing stability opportunities through the voucher programs.

Uh we are um uh considering and putting in place uh action steps to strengthen our administrative efficiency uh with greater utilization and maximization of those resources, we can maximize then the administrative fees that we are getting and uh on that same consideration.

Of course, uh streamlining the processes that we have in place.

So that's one uh key consideration for DHA.

We are aiming to deepen landlord partnerships and uh diversifying the resources that we are managing and we have in place, and how can we collectively uh at the very beginning of my remarks, uh I was making reference about this pain basically a challenge, but also an opportunity that uh DHA will need to undertake with uh community partners to be successful.

So we are aiming to establish memorandum of understandings, uh creating these uh special voucher programs that we are talking about to streamline the housing stability for those specific populations, specifically uh those that may be facing more than housing stability, some social determinants of health that are preventing them to get to those opportunities.

And and of course, you know, uh to integrate uh our voucher programs with uh redevelopment uh activity, uh a policy pipeline strategy in which we can maximize those project-based vouchers.

I want to recognize the presence of uh Edith Clark here in the audience, our chief of real estate investment.

So we are working in collaboration with Edding, the voucher programs, Josh Loretta, to develop what we're calling a rolling RFP, which is going to provide uh not only better a better sense of awareness of the resources that we're managing managing at any given point in time, specifically relating to the project-based vouchers, but what is going to be the process that those developers will need to follow so in the end that they can get a conditional commitment from DHA, and after the successful uh uh um completion of of those on those commitments, a process for us to formalize the commitment so they can uh uh utilize those resources as part of the different deals and projects that they are managing.

So, in closing, I wanted to say that the work of DHA as it pertains to housing uh stability, rental assistance, the voucher programs, is not starting and ending there.

We also uh leverage some additional supports specifically from our nonprofit affiliates to do uh as much as we can, not only providing housing stability, but addressing those social determinants of health.

And I want to mention the work uh that is being done by friends of DHA and nonprofit affiliate of the Denver Housing Authority, providing uh supports on community building, digital inclusion, healthy living, and very related to this topic, uh, economic and self uh sufficiency, which is important, and our uh you know, focus on on the youth uh through the youth employment uh academy and the different opportunities that we have for our people uh through our social enterprises and as you know, we have the caterfresh in the South Valley community, we have the Osage Cafe there uh in the same building in which we have our uh uh central offices in the Mariposa neighborhood.

Uh we offer internships, uh industry, academies, uh, well-being, and and mentoring.

So we are uh implementing a holistic approach, not only managing those resources for housing stability, but uh walking the extra mile uh in partnership with other community partners to ensure that we are not only achieving just that with the limited resources that we have in place, but how can we take those families, individuals out of the challenges that they're facing that they are facing in consideration of those social determinants of health?

So I will stop here and we we welcome any questions that you may have, and very much looking forward to a great conversation.

Yeah, thank you so much.

This is exactly what we're hoping to get up today, and I don't think I was super clear in the request, so you just read our minds.

Um I'd like to uh welcome Councilmember or Council President Pro Tem Romero Campbell to the meeting.

Thank you.

Um, and yeah, the queue so far, it starts with Councilmember Torres.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Thank you all.

Uh really appreciate the information.

Um what's what is HUD when they determine the fair market uh rent?

What's their region?

Is it just Denver?

Is it a metro region?

Is it the state?

Okay, go ahead.

Go ahead.

It's it's a metro region and includes uh the Denver uh metro area, Centennial Aurora is basically it's a larger uh region that uh is within the consideration of the same market firmware rates that are applicable to us, they are applicable to that extended area.

Okay.

Um you said I wanted to make sure I heard, right, the emergency voucher program is coming to an end next year.

What does that mean?

Yeah, so um HOT uh implemented many years ago this emergency housing voucher program.

That program was uh intended to serve uh individuals facing homelessness, chronic homelessness, sex dating violence, and other categories.

Uh so has uh already uh informed that that program is sunsetting next year, September 30th of next year.

So what that means in the practice is for all uh program participants that we have in place as of now or any given date in the future, uh if we for whatever reason there is a move out from the program, a program participation uh ending, things like that, DHA and uh this is applicable to all housing authorities.

We cannot issue again those emergency vouchers.

How do you get them back though?

Like how do you, like somebody can continue using it?

Those are the solutions that we are exploring right now.

So for example, and Loretta can can uh perhaps talk a little bit more about it.

Uh what we have been doing is twofold.

We are leveraging one additional program, which is the uh net uh non-elderly disabled uh program uh that is not affected with this level of constraints that that we are facing right now.

So we are leveraging that program number one.

Number two, uh we are getting, and this is uh information that was made available through a notice that was published by by HUD, eventually we can leverage the main program, the housing choice budget programs to ensure that those families in the end that we will have, we can then transition them to the main uh program that we have in place.

Okay.

Um anything additional on that, Loretta?

Right.

And so one thing to mention is that we started out with 190 of those HV vouchers.

Today we're at about 121 of those vouchers.

So families have been closed within the net program as Joachim mentioned, or they've moved on to other affordable housing time.

Well, there will come a point where I just yank some and the funding will run out.

It will right, yeah.

So September 30th is when the fund the program ends.

Okay.

The funding itself is anticipated to run out by June of next year.

So our plan, like what King mentioned, is to transition the remaining of those families into tenant-based vouchers before that happens.

Okay, um, the uh additional sites that are kind of in an appendix on this, there don't add up to the same number of, oh maybe they do.

8588, that's all of those other categories combined is what I'm assuming.

Yes.

Okay.

Um so when the mayor's office said that uh they lost 100 vouchers from Denver Housing Authority.

Was were those vouchers that we're talking about in the emergency voucher category, or what did that mean?

We could take that.

So a couple of years uh ago, uh there was a commitment to the city uh to provide uh 300 uh vouchers uh on increments of 100 vouchers per per year.

So this will be the second year of that commitment.

As you know, uh you know Denver Housing Authority uh uh as well as many other housing authorities across the nation, we uh got in a level of restriction that was imposed by by HUD to manage the uh described shortfall uh in funding available to support the housing programs, right?

The specific housing choice voucher program.

One of the mandates that was imposed to DHA and other housing authorities with uh same circumstances, is that we could not issue any additional vouchers, but we could maintain the housing stability for all program participants that we may have uh any given point in time today or moving forward uh uh out of that consideration.

Because of that, we could not issue any additional vouchers uh outside of those that we are managing.

The 100 vouchers initially allocated are coming from that pool of tenant-based vouchers.

Uh, and because of that, that level of assistance uh or not assistance, but but uh the allocation of those additional vouchers to the city uh were impossible to to fulfill because of that restriction that was imposed to HUD.

What is important to uh explain, and thank you for the question, is that now the action steps that DHA is implementing in agreement uh with the action plan that was agreed upon uh with HUD, in which we are uh in one hand uh reducing uh the level of funding that we are uh uh utilizing on a monthly basis from the budget authority so we can level up that funding authority is going to open for us an opportunity in 2026 because the baseline for us is going, I mean the the uh utilization of those resources will be below the baseline of what the budget authority is, meaning that we can and we will have the necessary caution to come back and replenish those vouchers at that uh point in time.

When is that?

Uh effective 2026.

Okay, uh so that of course that uh is contingent to the significant level of progress that we are making and we will continue to achieve.

Um then again we need to be fiscally responsible about that and making sure that all the elements of consideration are in place so we can then uh be assertive at the moment in time in which we are going to be allocating those vouchers.

Okay, so right now there's 200 that are in play with the city, but it'll ramp back up again to the normal numbers in 26.

And important to clarify.

Uh this is not a a recurrent uh, you know.

It's not it's not a an allocation that will uh reset every single year.

We are managing one budget authority that fluctuates depending on many factors utilization, a look back period that HOD is is using to determine uh what they are going to be providing to us and what is how that is going to play a role in the uh congressional appropriation uh uh process.

So it's a commitment of 300 vouchers, uh not a commitment to refill those 300 over time, time and time again.

Okay, okay, okay.

Um, sorry.

Uh one of the things that I'm um thinking about in terms of the new housing that you're building, how uh how then do you apply um do you apply kind of your voucher allocation to your new housing like in Sun Valley or in Mariposa, or is that um maintained elsewhere throughout your your sites?

Um, do you anticipate getting any additional voucher um allowance or kind of clearance from HUD?

Do you want to talk about the A hub and Hub process?

Yes.

And so with that, uh, not all of our new bills include project-based vouchers or you know, tenant-based tenant-based voucher holders can lease those units if they so choose, right?

We talked about choice earlier, but it is not associated with that process.

And so the AHAP process that Joaquin is referring to is when you enter into an agreement to enter into a HAP contract under that long-term affordability project-based process.

And then when you enter into a HAP contract with the owners or the developers, then you enter into the agreement to start the leasing process for those long-term projects.

But I think uh more to your point is that it's not necessarily tied to the voucher program in and of itself.

It is separate.

So we do have our housing management department that Josh entered, uh mentioned earlier, that's managing those uh non-uh project-based or units as well, so they're leasing their tax credits and other affordable means.

Okay, are you finding that people are coming back to DHA with their uh tenant-based voucher just because rents are just higher in the in general neighborhoods than they are on your on your property sites with public housing?

Do you want to provide perspective of the weight lease and sure?

Um, yes, we do we do find so in our in a let's talk about Sun Valley as an example.

Yeah, typically one-third market, one-third tax credit, one third subsidized affordable.

So in the tax credit and the market rate units, uh, and when we talk about market rate, we hold our market under actual market.

They're market for us, but they're not true market.

Uh, we do find that those units, those two types of units, the tax credit and the market rate units, tend to be filled with folks using vouchers.

Okay.

Um, and it's beneficial for them.

It's better, easier for them to rent from us because our rents are lower.

And within the FMR that Loretta talked about and our payment standards, because if somebody's trying to rent a unit that's above those, then the voucher doesn't work unless we negotiate with the landlord and they're willing to reduce the rent.

So to your question, yes, we do find that we have a lot of folks bringing their vouchers and renting from us because of where we set our rents.

Okay.

And any um uh opportunity to grow for growth, and then I'll stop there, um, for of the amount of vouchers that you're able to use, opportunity for growth.

Yes, so we can we're always seeking opportunities to apply for additional vouchers from HUD.

In fact, we have a request for additional HUD Bash vouchers with HUD right now, um, additional 22 uh HED bench vouchers.

So we're always looking for an opportunity to grow the voucher program by applying for additional vouchers from HUD.

But right now we're currently leasing at capacity.

So I want to also uh considering that that uh question um outside of these 22 that we are uh requesting, uh we uh most recently expressed or registered our interest in partnership with uh the Veteran Affairs Office.

Um we prior to that, last, well, this this year early, we we got an additional allocation of 25 uh veteran affairs vouchers.

Um important to also uh note is that when we as a community we come together and we not only express the need, but we uh can provide evidence to her about having that plan that makes sense, the necessary community partners aligned with that plan, and how the partnership in managing these additional level of resources that we are asking for, that is going to be effective through uh these partnerships and the need that we are expressing to HUD.

Uh, that's uh something that we can and should be doing.

Uh most recently, I believe it was maybe four or five years ago.

Uh um don't quote me on on the number of years, but what what is important is that uh my predecessor, uh Ismail Guerrero at the time, uh working with uh Dr.

Rife, uh, when she was uh leading MTHI and other community partners, they uh submitted a community uh support request to HUD, and through those efforts, we received uh an allocation of additional vouchers uh through the net elderly disabled uh program, uh adding to the capacity that at that moment in time we have.

So we can and should be doing the same, including of the existing challenges and the overwhelming level of support that we have within this community to do just that.

Okay.

Um the other question I was gonna ask is um uh we are seeing both um eligibility requirements for SNAP uh come into place around like work requirements and um uh I think deadlines or timelines for being on the benefit.

Um, are you seeing those as well for your head benefit programs and um what is your strategy gonna be if you do start losing folks from your rules?

Because my my impression is that the intention behind adding all these rules to some of the other benefit programs is to thin out who's utilizing them because they just drop off the rules.

Um, how would how is that gonna affect uh the programs?

Yeah, great, great great question.

Thank you for that.

Um the 26, the 2026 budget, the budget that that is within consideration, uh, is not uh considering working uh requirements or term limits uh within the housing programs.

Yes, uh other programs, SNAP, uh I mean TANIF and those uh yes uh are considering those uh elements uh not directly the housing program, so we are not facing uh that challenge right now, but we do recognize that the application of those two things, or at least the working requirements on other programs will have a compound effect that is going to in the end uh affect the people that we are serving through the housing uh stability opportunities, and then again how how those additional elements will impact them specifically and personally, and how the ability for them to afford a place to call home is going to be uh affected, right?

So we are we are uh aware of those uh um conditions, and for me that's why uh I wanted to mention the additional supports that we have in place uh through the resident and community collection program uh at department of DHA, but on top of that, the output from our nonprofit affiliates, providing those additional supports that can help families and individuals mitigate those adverse uh.

I can imagine even seeing like our November SNAP benefits, right, are not likely to come through.

Um, and for family who typically might have received a hundred dollars a month for SNAP benefits, they don't have that anymore, but they needed that to buy groceries.

Um, and uh have to fill it with something else.

So um totally see that kind of layer of that.

Um just the last thing.

Yeah, woman I I wanted to also uh express because I believe it's it's truly important to recognize uh the hard work by leaders within the uh housing, Denver Housing Authority.

We have been proactive ever since day one, not only touching base at the congressional level, touching base with the US Department of Housing at the local, regional and national level.

Uh our regional leadership came to visit us and we talked specifically about these uh topics that you are making reference, and we provided them uh guidance through lived experiences.

And the key takeaway in the end was there is no way that you can implement something like this because it's not a one-size fit all.

You cannot say two years and you are done.

That is not how it works.

We had an opportunity to to express to them not only the work that we are doing, how we're doing the work, and what is the impact that we're creating.

As a result, we uh hosted a contingent of about 27 uh national leaders uh from HUD that came to Denver, our Sun Valley community, and we visited Westridge, and we talk about many wonderful things uh about the work that we are doing in this community and how this can be used as a model to be replicated.

And then again, we had an additional opportunity to provide uh um very assertive uh guidance, I will say, to them about how things uh are done in Denver in terms of supporting uh families and individuals, navigating through the programs and exiting those programs successfully, namely a homeownership opportunity or any other uh avenue for economic advancement.

And I think that the input that we have provided, I mean, DHA uh has provided uh I will not say that because of this level of engagement uh uh and communication and interaction that we have had with HUD, uh the result in the end was not inserting discussion rituals as part of the budget for the housing related programs, but we because we we will let those conversations and we remain in conversation as well and collaboration with different advocacy groups, NARO, PLAFA FARA, and many others.

I think that the uh that that placed uh DHA on a different lens, and as well as a result of that, the whole ecosystem of housing authorities and those advocacy groups that are supporting our work.

And I I wanted to say that just to say in the end that here in Denver, uh we are not here just to manage those programs.

We are here also to understand the conditions of the people that we're serving.

How can we make things better?

And how can we leverage those partnerships that are important in the end so we can achieve just that?

Yeah, no, and and I I definitely see that as like the long-term opportunity.

It's tough to pivot, right?

When you have two weeks' notice for some folks, because I wonder about like your decatur fresh location, how much of the revenue that that market takes that are from EBT cards, um, like it's one of the business plan items for what sustains um a market in uh housing authority neighborhood.

Um in my eyes, anyway.

So it's the closest market in a few miles um for Sun Valley residents.

So um thank you so much.

And um, just to to comment a lot of the DHA family knows this um about me, but um uh section eight housing saved my family from homelessness, and it's one of the things that um I always look to as uh a saving grace for um mine and hundreds uh if not thousands of other families um throughout the mentor area uh for uh allowing folks to one find housing in a place that they need it to be um probably much harder now than it was uh 30 years ago, but uh just really appreciate the work and the heart that you put into it.

So thank you so much.

Thank you for your support.

Um, well, I don't have council president or council pro time in the queue so far.

I'll pause for you guys, and I definitely have questions too.

So okay.

Thank you.

Um council president, raise your hand at any time, or or ping me.

Um so I I have a lot of questions.

That's a great thing I think chair, you can bring in the people that you want to ask questions of.

Um, and I'm really appreciative of this because what you guys um do in this, I mean, even just this subpart of DHA is so complex and um it helps us even having a better sense of what I don't know has helped me be a better council member in this area.

So thank you.

Um, one of the questions overlaps with what council remember Torres was asking, um, which has to do with like voucher types over time and kind of these goofy HUD processes where you can apply for like a little bump or whatever.

Um, if you have a chart of the voucher types over time, that would be great.

I would love to see that because that would help me orient myself a little bit as someone who doesn't have a lot of background in you know this.

Um, and then when you were talking about the other non-based vouchers, I take it that of those 235, and my would I be right that a hundred and twenty of those about are the ones that are the V uh lost the acronym VHV ones where the funding is ending in June, and you're trying to get those folks into the regular base tenant vouchers.

Okay.

Just for clarification, uh the emergency housing vouchers are falling within that consideration, the additional uh which is the mainstream.

Uh what what means is that they are living within a different budget authority that the than the greater uh pool of resources.

Yeah.

Okay.

Um thank you for that.

And then could you talk a little bit more about what else falls under those other non-based vouchers?

I take maybe there's just been photo programs from time to time, but what other clusters are in there that might run out of funding at a certain point.

And then it's really stream.

Right.

There's the two categories that Joaquin just mentioned, okay.

And the mainstream.

Yes.

Okay, thank you.

That's level 235.

Um, thanks.

Um, and then I think the other thing that is um it's a big question, and it just comes from being like, you know, not having been on council for that long, being outside of this work for the most part.

Could you guys like zoom back a little bit and tell us like what else is changing within um the voucher program?

So um, I've heard even just from tenants, honestly, about um maybe like federal mandates to get paperwork in faster.

Um, you know, what else is changing if you are someone who is on an HCB voucher?

Can you speak to it?

Yeah, and so when you say changing, that's you know, that's kind of a big word change, right?

And so right now, what's happening is with the paperwork getting in faster is um Joaquin mentioned that right now we're under uh guidance from HUD to maintain strict compliance, and so what that means is that we're asking our participants to watch those timelines and make sure they're turning in the paperwork promptly to avoid termination from the program because termination from the program today may not mean that you're automatically be reinstated just by complying after the fact.

Right, whereas there used to be maybe more generosity there.

Exactly, okay.

Um, but have there also been any substantive changes other than the um that sort of like a lesser level of flexibility, that's one thing.

Um, have there been substantive changes uh from the federal level to paperwork people have to provide when they have to provide it, you know, anything like that.

Not necessarily from the federal level in that the program itself has changed.

Okay, it's just the guidelines and what we're asking families to do during this time has changed.

Um voucher timelines is limited to 60 days search time versus before in other days where you can go up to 180 days search time.

Uh so those are the things that are changing right now based off this current budget authority that we're operating.

Okay, that is super clarifying for me, sort of like why that's happening in that way.

Um I think we would all be really interested to see um, you know, at some point down the line, um, if you start to get a sense of the rate of people who aren't able to find housing in that timeline because of the market being what it is, even you know, even though this is supposed to be pinned to the market, I would love to know if you're starting to see more families who um are in fact.

I mean, I assume that's sort of the aim at the federal level.

I'll just say you know what I'm saying.

We can get you that information.

So we'd love to see those numbers so we can keep our eyes on it, um, because you know, I don't know if we can do anything about it, but it's the kind of thing we should know.

Um, so I'd be very appreciative of that.

And then um, well, I guess I should say when did you have to start um being more stringent exactly?

Like when did that?

So April 17th.

April 17th, okay, was the date that we met with HUD and they said okay, you need to start.

You know the date.

Yeah, I know the date.

I didn't think you would.

I thought you'd be like, yeah, it was spring.

So April 17th.

All right.

Yes, yes.

And so when we started to see the impact of that started to be, you know, you have to kind of roll things out, procedures and so on and so forth.

So May 1st is when we really started to change our procedures or payment standards and things like that.

Okay, um, so there may already be some data then.

I would I would be super interested, and it can be a follow-up email, but if it's possible to tell us, um, even if it's not if it's comparative and goes back in time, that's great.

But if it's even just April to, you know, now every month how many people have um been terminated for the reason that they couldn't find, you know, they didn't secure lease within the time allowed.

I would be really interested in that.

Um, and then the other thing um we didn't ask to cover necessarily, and it's not limited to um, well, I guess I'd ask this within the housing choice voucher program.

I would love to know about evictions and um how that looks over time, just eviction rates of people with um vouchers.

I assume they do get evicted it because of other at least noncompliance.

We can provide you that information.

Yeah, exactly.

I don't know what those rates look like, and I would love to know that too.

And that relates to something else I've been curious about, which is um can you talk to me a little more?

Because this is something if we're thinking about like constituent issues that we get.

Um, you guys can all tell me if it's just me, but I doubt it.

Um, we'll hear from people that have a voucher and that are having a landlord issue.

Um, and so I don't have a great understanding of what DHA requires of landlords since this is choice, this is the you know, the market, people are going on finding their own housing.

Um, can you talk to me a little bit about that?

Like, and I don't and I'll tell you, I don't even know on the most basic level is the lease agreement just between the tenant and the landlord like it usually would be.

You're not a party to that.

Um, do you insist on certain terms in that lease or are you just providing the voucher and nothing else?

You know, those kind of things, yeah.

So you're on the right path in on your understanding in that it we like to describe it, and HUD also describes it as a triangle relationship in that there is the relationship with the housing provider, which aka landlord and the to participant, and that's the lease agreement that ties the two of them together.

The housing authority and the housing provider has a half contract which ties us to the housing provider, and then there's HUD that provides the funding to the housing authority to, you know, provide the subsidy to the to the housing uh to we the HUD provides us with the subsidy to pay the housing provider the subsidy, and then the tenant pays their portion of the rent too directly to the landlord.

Um to talk you asked about what do we require as far as the housing provider and the lease agreement.

We asked that the lease agreement mirrors the lease agreement that it would for any non-HCB participant, so that that lease agreement is fair and utilized across the board and that there's nothing besides the course of laws that is in that agreement.

So for example, they cannot say to a housing voucher participant, hey, you have some of your subsidy paid, so I want more deposit from you than I would require from another person.

Things like that, those general basic things is what we're looking at.

Okay.

Um and are are you involved at all if there are um sort of disputes or um like ward of compatibility type issues between a tenant or landlord in the choice program or not?

I mean, if we're made right, yes, right.

If we're made aware of them, uh so generally speaking, if a landlord or tenant is having issues with the housing provider and say that it's a lease violation or something with a unit, then we will intervene.

The tenant has the ability to request what we call complaint inspections, emergency inspections if something is going wrong with the unit, because then we'll send an inspector out, and if we find that yeah, there's a violation, the housing provider is required to make those repairs, or we're issue of voucher to the tenant to find another unit that's safe, decent or sanitary.

Um we do have uh conferences that we will offer in cases of obligations rules or that type of thing to just kind of make sure that the family understand their obligations under the program and what their responsibilities are.

Okay, thank you.

Um that's actually even the terminology is so helpful to know.

Um, all right, and then I have some questions also um around utilization rates, and so this may be getting a little more into the project-based neck of the woods, um, but I'm curious where those are at, and if you could talk to me about any like utilization bottlenecks, utilization bottlenecks when it comes to project based vouchers, our utilization rate right now is about 82 percent.

Uh, we are allowed to project base 30 percent of our vouchers under the project based program, and of that when I say 82% utilization, um, some of the units that we're currently project basing are exempt from that cap, so that gives us a little bit of flexibility on that.

Um, bottlenecks as to the project base project-based leasing right now is probably the most successful leasing that we have because the subsidy is tied to the unit itself, right?

So when a family is accepted into a project-based unit, the subsidy is coming with them.

It's kind of seamless, yeah.

Okay.

Um I'm curious also, sort of related to that.

I have heard that a few um providers on the project based side have the sense that or I guess are experiencing that they thought that they would get a certain number of vouchers that was contracted for and that was reduced.

Um, it's our even ringing above.

Do you know what I mean?

With that, and can you explain what happened there?

Yeah, I mean, I'm guessing I might know what happened, but you can tell us.

Is it the fence?

Yes, and so with that, um, we are managing compliance of the project base as well, right?

Right now, we're looking for every opportunity to tighten up and streamline the program that's available, and so if a housing provider, for example, entered into the program at year five with a hundred units, but they're only leasing 50, and they've not leased those 50 within the 120 day requirements, those units are removed because they've been remained vacant and now considered out of compliance.

Okay, so some housing providers may say, Wait, I've lost units.

No, you were out of compliance.

Okay, um, thank you.

I had a feeling it was parallel, it's basically parallel to what's happening with families, right?

So I know I have another area of questions, so thank you for the time I'm gonna see, because I think you have questions that I did know I wanted to know and answer those, so thank you.

Yeah, um, oh yeah, I wanted to go back to the questions that Councilmember Tars was asking also and just make sure I'm understanding this.

Um and I think I'll just say for myself, I don't know that I even I don't have much understanding of these factors that DHA had agreed to allocate to the city.

So I'll just say I don't I don't know much about that.

You might have thought that any given council member did.

I at least did not, or I forgot.

So you were saying it was an agreement to allocate 100 vouchers per year to the city for each of three years, 24, 25, 26 was supposed to be.

Is that right?

Um, and can you explain?

This is again so base level, but can you explain a little bit more what it what it was meant by allocating them to the city?

Like how they were to be used, I guess.

So basically providing uh an allocation on increments of 100 per year to to the city.

So uh the city will be acting for all intent and purposes after referral for those 100 uh opportunities, and in that process, uh DHA issue those postures to those uh possible uh after determining eligibility requirements and all of those uh uh things, you know, uh we then issue the applicable uh quote unquote voucher to those participants so they can become part of the program.

So basically, were they participants who were in um city contracted shelter, or could like I know this is more of a city side question, but who was your understanding of the folks to be served by those exactly?

Yes, yeah, and so these are referrals again, access to refer individuals to the vouchers, making it clear that these are not individuals that were attached to the voucher and then removed.

Um that was my understanding, and that these vouchers were going to be allocated to folks entering exiting a shelter of some type.

Okay, I gotcha.

And this is also a silly question, but how's that possible given wait lists?

Because I have always had a vague understanding that there's just deep wait lists for vouchers, so yeah, and I guess that's another question.

Wait lists.

How big are they?

What's the deal with those?

That is the power of the special programs, because when you define special programs that are attached to specific populations facing some additional considerations, right?

Homelessness in this case.

Uh um, then you have a direct uh pool, if you will, that is going to be leveraged for the uh purpose of providing those housing stability opportunities instead of the individuals going through the conventional uh loading process that that we have in place.

Okay.

Um thank you.

This is uh again, we're just we're just filling knowledge gaps, but it's really helpful.

And then if you can you take one more step back then and explain a little bit more to me about the um more of the details of the special program funding itself, um, where that came from, and I take it it's growing up, but you stay same budget authority in the end.

I mean, for example, um the veteran affairs uh uh program is aimed to provide uh housing and supports to veterans, right?

Uh as the program itself uh implies that is within the larger budget authority that is provided to any given housing authority, the H included, but with a specific purpose of this program, which is called uh veteran affairs.

Same with non-elderly uh foster youth initiative is one additional special program, the family unification program is one more that we have.

So those are specific programs with specific purposes outside of the fact of providing housing stability.

I mean, the main pool of tenant-based postures, the purpose is to provide housing stability, no more no less than that.

It's housing stability.

Now we have some additional programs that are aiming to achieve just that, plus these specific circumstances that this program is uh aiming to to address, right?

Okay, and how does that work for your housing authorities budget then?

Understanding, I get what you're saying that they're um they're more targeted and um you have more flexibility, but um, can you explain to me like for a given year at what point do you know how much you'll be able to spend on those special projects?

How does it how is it different than your overall HCB budget that's much more numeric, I guess.

So we we receive a budget authority of X amount of dollars.

And then uh it comes the disbursements that we are receiving based on a number of factors, including the actual utilization of the resources, a look back period, meaning two or three months uh in the past, and how uh above the baseline or below are we?

So then, based on that, how is providing to us the disbursements that that are going to cover a number of months uh of consideration?

And in the end, those plus and minuses uh will need to be in uh or reconcile with that level of authority that we are getting from Hot to manage the the programs.

Uh does that answer the question?

Yeah, and I it's so it um it's related to the comparative funding chart that you put up, which was also really really helpful.

Um, and I'm sort of staring at this.

Um, you have these different categories of federal funding that you get, right?

So obviously housing choice voucher renewals.

Um, if I may uh speak a little bit more about that.

On that uh schedule, you you see many many categories uh including the presidential budget initially, uh the most recent house version and the Senate version, but also a column I think is in the middle that uh speaks about the uh housing industry or uh or an industry request.

What that means is that uh our ecosystem of partners through the advocacy groups, in this case uh the National Association of Housing and Development Officials, the Council of Large Public Housing Authorities, the Public Housing Authorities Directors Association, we have come together to say uh we hear you, but this is what we need to serve our different communities in the best way possible considering so that's the real budget.

Considering the circumstances, the reality is that most likely we are going to uh we may get less than that in most, not to say all of the programs.

Hopefully, in the end, that is not going to be the case.

But but uh I mean that that right there, even though that is the industry request, that is not a directly proportional relation that will say that every single community across the board is going to be funded at the levels that they deserve.

You are going to have some jurisdictions that are going to be well funded, while others will continue having some struggles based on the affordability issues and many things like that that are, you know, underlying considerations to that equation there.

Yeah, okay, thank you.

Um, and when will you know?

I should know this because I should know when the federal budget happens, but I don't.

Um, when do you think you'll have a better sense of um plans?

That is the question that everybody is.

So shut down.

Yeah, so so right now the I mean uh the most recent information that that I that I have is that, you know, there is not a there is work uh of course being done and most uh uh relevant to us, you know, through those same advocacy groups and directly by the different housing authorities, but there is no timeline set to say, well, this is going to last one more week or whatever.

So what we are all hoping is that uh as soon as possible uh before the end of uh the month of October to say the November.

When the shutdown ends, the budget comes out, you guys will basically know at that point.

Historically, the largest one has been for 35 days.

Yeah.

So this one is.

Let me ask this kind of a better way, I guess.

It once the um federal budget is set, it is it sort of automatic, then what Denver's share of that is, or are there later steps to that?

It depends.

Uh, some programs are uh through formula, some others are within other considerations.

But you'll have a pretty good sense once this number is set of like how that looks for Denver.

Okay.

Yeah, definitely we wouldn't know.

We will be happy to report us unless we get.

Yeah, we would be interested in seeing it.

And then how are there any other ways that the shutdown is impacting you all other than just you know waiting for information, like what's what's happening with your disbursements and everything else?

Yeah, I think right now we're business as usual.

Um we are we have we have some healthy reserves.

We've been doing an analysis to figure out um, you know, the longer this goes on, what that means for us.

We're actively uh contingency planning for that for the worst case scenario, um, because that's the responsible thing that we need to do, right?

We're hoping that that we don't end up there.

Uh right now, as of today, the impacts on us um are relatively minor.

Uh as it drags on, obviously, um, then we have to start looking at at what that looks like when um checks need to be going out and checks aren't coming in.

Okay, but basically, thanks to your reserves.

That's you've got some time on that.

Is that fair to say or um yes?

Okay.

I won't ask you to say anything you know you don't want to say publicly, but um certainly reach out to us if uh if we're approaching anything that might start to get concerning, I would say.

Um, and if I could just add one piece specific to the housing choice voucher program, um our housing providers cannot evict a participant if the housing authority fails to make a hat payment.

Okay.

As long as the participant pays their portion of the rent, that remedy's against you that the housing provider has to wait, just like we would have to wait if if we don't have uh hat payments to be made, but that does provide some level of of safety for our participants.

Okay, that's really good.

Thank you for telling me that.

Um, does anyone else other members um have any questions that have occurred in all of that?

Sort of wide-ranging, but this is again um I wanted to bring this presentation to this committee just because we we hear about vouchers kind of as a side item when we're talking to host about how we fund all kinds of, you know, um housing-related stuff.

We hear about it from um people who are working on amazing projects.

Um, and then we hear from uh renters sometimes, you know, um tenants, and so it just um it's nice to have a little better understanding of all of all these structures.

You have something.

I don't really thank you, madam chair.

I don't really have a question.

I think it's more it's more just of a comment, um, and I think throughout this entire conversation with your um questions, um, with both of your questions that have been asked, I think it just um further um elevates or or um shows the complexity of these support systems that help keep families afloat.

And right now um you might have someone, you know, if one if one clip, I don't want to call it the clip effect, but it's kind of a it's a little bit of a evident effect.

If one thing falls off, then it affects your other one, whether it be your housing, your food, your child care, and how um how delicately balanced it is.

So when it works, it's it works, and and families are staying afloat, but at the same time, when you have so much unpredicted predictability at a federal level, um, that's really determining what's happening to families here on the ground.

I just appreciate the work that you're doing to make sure that families um still are receiving the services and the housing that they so desperately need.

Um, and knowing that in this particular time with that uncertainty, um, that you're just keeping your eye on the ball for being able to respond.

So I just wanted to say thank you for the work that you're doing because it it is um it's a lot of unknowns and a lot of gray right now.

Um so I think so much of your comments have been or so much of this presentation and the comments have been so timely with with um things that we need to be thinking about.

Um, in yeah, um, yeah, and I that's a really thank you, Pro Tem um for going to a more human place with this because I know from um having honestly, I want to compliment um your folks because I've had a few troubleshooting kinds of situations with um people that have reached out to my office with the shorter times to secure units, and I could tell that there were people at DHE that were just like um moving heaven earth to try to get folks into a unit.

Um, and that there's no way that this added workload is not really hitting your folks because they're the same um staff that you had, right?

And so um I'm just appreciative of that, and um those are all our constituents, and so we're here if we can ever help, we're here if we can ever help.

Um kind of um even with communication and things like that.

We can't help with the federal government, and you know, but um, but we're here to help your constituents too.

So um don't hesitate if you ever if if we can ever support people.

Um and I really um we're not that closely.

You all I think talk and work a lot with host um on a policy level city council, you know, you're not funded by us, we're not in charge of you, and so we come and ask you questions and you're great and lovely, um, and we're grateful for what you do.

Um, but we're sort of two, you know, um independent things sitting next to each other, and I think um it might be I just would love to get the message back to everyone who works there that that our appreciation uh that we know how how difficult it must be right now, and we always have appreciated everyone at DHA, but in particular right now.

So I may as a final point and relevant to that.

Um, I wanted to to let you know, and I think is it's very uh important to say that most recently, and this is the second time that we have been doing this uh ever since last year, we had a what we call our housing symposium with housing providers.

And what I want to highlight is is just the fact that DHA and following, you know, Josh's and Loretta's uh leadership specifically, we have maintained uh even within the environment in which we are, a direct level of communication and interaction, making sure that there are no gaps within that level of communication that should exist.

Yes, we remain open to feedback and we uh we want to improve on that sense, right?

But what I think is very uh important to let you know that from the constituency standpoint, we are maintaining that level of communication with uh those that are serving uh our families uh and individuals across the board, and we have remained always open to to those uh dialogues on a proactive way, but also listening, listening ear for whatever may be any necessary piece of feedback, right?

And we truly appreciate that uh uh at all times.

Just wanted to say that because it's important to recognize you know, that's leadership on that standpoint, maintaining the level of communication that is important.

Thanks.

Um, well, any of if there are no other questions, and I think we can adjourn.

Um, we have no items on consent, um, and we just deeply appreciate your time, especially.

Thank you for the opportunity.

Thank you.

Thanks.

Thank you.

Okay.