Welcome back to this monthly meeting of the Governance and Intergovernmental Relations Committee of Denver City Council.

Thanks for joining us for the discussion.

The governance and intergovernmental relations committee starts now.

Good morning, everyone.

It is Tuesday, October 21st.

This is the governance committee of Denver City Council.

I'm Amanda Sawyer.

I have the honor of representing the residents of District 5 and chairing this committee.

We have a big one today and a hard stop at noon.

So why don't we do a quick round of introductions and then we'll get going?

Okay.

I'm starting with you, Council Pro Town.

I'm staring at you.

Good morning.

Diana Romero Campbell, Southeast Denver, District 4.

Good morning, Darrell Watson, Flying District 9.

Jamie Torres, West Denver District 3.

Sarah Parity, one of your council members at large.

All right.

So Dom, you want to introduce yourself and I want to welcome Council President Sandwell to the meeting as well.

Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Dominic Moran, Deputy Chief of Staff in the Mayor's Office.

Fantastic.

Take it away, you guys.

Thank you.

Councilwoman Parody and I were honored to be able to take on this work with Dominic and the Mayor's Office, several members from the city attorney's office, and then a really amazing stakeholder group of uh of our labor union.

So thank you all who are here and others who gave their time to this conversation.

So we'll be going through each of these items, background purpose of the bill, the stakeholding and drafting process that we went through, and then some of the summary definitions and section breakdown before next steps, and we will have uh public comment today.

Um so just want to kind of take us through what brought us to this point, and we all um can recall back uh just a year ago that voters passed uh the referred item from council to allow collective bargaining by city employees.

Um that passed by a 30-point margin in November 2024.

Um and what it requires is for us to really provide flesh to uh the framework that was provided in charter that was approved by Voro Voters, which is um which are all the items that we're bringing forward in this particular ordinance today.

Um, so um I think because this was uh such a strongly supported effort by Denver City Council.

I don't think I need to fully reiterate um what it means for city workers, uh, but we did want to make sure we gave a nod to why collective bargaining is in the public interest, the benefits that we see in collective bargaining.

Um, we currently do this um uh on a regular basis with our safety department.

So it is not uh a totally brand new uh effort on the part of the city, but for city employees it will be.

Um so uh we want to make sure that we are uh following the intent of charter and the intent of um the folks that um approved this process.

Um so we wanted to make sure that we also outlined um the eligible employees under this ordinance and under this uh charter provision, all career service employees and employees of the city council, the library commission, civil service commission, board of adjustment, and Denver Water.

It does not include all employees, so we wanted to make sure we outlined who it excluded.

Um, one of the great suggestions that we got from uh Councilwoman Sawyer was to use the existing org chart uh for uh the city and county of Denver just to give us a visual of who it includes, who it does not include, um, so we can refer back and go, oh, okay, that's pretty clear uh for us.

Because even for Denver City Council, sometimes we're constantly asking like, are our staff career service?

Are we, you know what I mean?

So um uh this is just helpful for us in making sure we know exactly who is and is not included in this um forthcoming process.

And to be clear, the ordinance doesn't change any of that.

All of that was in the charter amendment and stays the same, so this is ground you know, level setting, but nothing that's affected by the ordinance anyway.

Correct.

Uh so this is the process that we undertook um uh councilwoman parody and I um uh started by weekly meetings uh way back when.

It's not that long ago, but it feels um like ages ago.

Um, and uh immediately started working with the labor working group um and collaborating with them on what a drafts should include, what kind of language it language it should include.

Um we met frequently with um the Office of Human Resources in the city and our council and legal.

Um there was extensive back and forth, even as recently as um three days ago.

And going through a lot of the finer details.

So just a lot of um constant conversation about is this what it says, what it means to say, what we want it to say, how can we make that more clear without overworking a lot of the sections?

These are the main summary sections that we'll be going through, or that are included in the draft.

We're gonna go high level on a lot of these, but um the detail is really in there.

Um definitions and applicability, panel of arbitrators and mediators, bargaining unit determination, election of bargaining agent, payroll deductions, collective bargaining procedures, collective labor actions and lockouts, uh binding arbitration and court review, unfair labor practices, and a TBD on management rights.

So we'll go through a bit on the definitions.

This is, I think, a really helpful slide, and something maybe even for my colleagues to cut and paste.

What is the charter already give definition to, and what is this ordinance give definition to?

Um, they do not contradict one another, they definitely build upon uh the charter, but there were definitely things that we needed more clarity on and more process so that everyone knew really clearly what happens come January 1.

Uh dispute resolution uh panel.

So there are a number of sections where we talk about arbitration and mediation.

And uh so we needed to make sure that there was a clear definition around what the panel of arbitrators is, how they are created.

Um, one of the benefits for us is we already use arbitrators, particularly for our collective bargaining with safety departments.

So we already have a six member.

Have I got that number right?

A six-member panel.

Um we can get more if more are needed, or um a different kind of expertise might be needed.

Um but what we're really hoping is to be able to pivot that panel of arbitrators to begin immediately availability to work on uh city employee um uh collective bargaining if and when arbitration will be needed.

It's five members.

We have it as odd in case.

They have some kind of procedural dispute.

It's five.

It's an odd number.

I'm trying to remember off the top of my head right now.

It's five.

It's in our ordinance as five.

Maybe we as a little bit.

It's in our ordinance as three or an odd number, and in fact we have five for uniforms that we're gonna cross a point.

Because we want it to be odd.

Okay, it's five in the, yeah.

Yeah, I'm not sure.

I thought it was six.

We just appointed, we just approved the appointment.

But I mean in this ordinance, it says it should be at least three and an odd number.

And so we're planning to cross a point five.

We have a pool.

We already know we already have a pool.

Exactly.

Okay.

Um, mediators, similarly, um uh what we're um aiming to do here is also pivot arbitrators to serve as mediators in this uh in this framework.

Um, and the ordinance is very clear as to when we need arbitrators and when we need mediators and how the leadership is selected for for those.

Anything on this before we move on?

No, okay.

Sorry for me.

Um, I might do.

Do you want to take over at any time?

I'll just go this.

Sure.

Okay.

I'm gonna run the slides myself too while I'm talking to them.

Um, okay.

So um you all rule called the charter sort of goes sequentially in terms of how this is all gonna happen for all of us in time.

Um, and so the first uh items that need to be flushed out in ordinance are petitions uh for filing a petition to be recognized as the official bargaining unit of city workers.

Um there may be disputes as the charter recognizes about who is within a certain bargaining unit, who has the same interests that are sufficiently aligned that they can bargain together.

Um, and so there's a process established here for other unions to intervene and say, actually, we want to represent this group of workers and we have more interest in doing so.

There is a process to resolve disputes um through arbitration over whether the defined bargaining unit meets the community of interest tests.

And so that's one of the times where we might end up using the panel of arbitrators.

Um then we get to elections, which uh the main thing to flag here.

They're secret ballot elections by default, um, with 14 days of notice.

You can essentially choose no representation or the one or more uh bargaining agents that uh got at least 33% of the defined group of employees in terms of the showing of interest stage.

There can be a runoff election if there's not a majority at that point.

So if you have two unions kind of trying to organize the same workers, we specify that ballots should be available in English, Spanish, and other languages if requested, because of course when council member Torres is involved, we do language justice, and then the arbitrator can ultimately resolve objections.

We also put in here that if the relevant corporate authority wants to agree to a card check process instead, which is often preferable because it's just simpler, that the corporate authority can do that, which is something that labor has, I think, met with and talked to all of us about.

And I would hope that the various corporate authorities in the city would agree to.

One thing to note here is that a lot of these arbitration decisions in this current draft are essentially final and binding, which is fairly common in labor law.

We've kicked back and forth whether to have some limited court appeal and mostly gone in the direction of just letting arbitrators handle it.

So you may hear more discussion about that, but just flagging that decision.

There's a duty to bargain in good faith, there is a duty on the employer side to share information because the employer has virtually all of the relevant information in this sphere, a duty to meet and set ground rules prior to bargaining, so that everybody we we kind of added that.

I don't know that that exists in other labor schemes, but we thought everybody always does that anyway, and so we should specifically say you all have to meet and figure out the rules, and we're trying to make this as smooth and um you know collaborative as possible when it starts.

Um and then we have a provision around releasing employee representatives from duty, which I will say you may see some small changes to this because we're trying to work out how we're gonna count those numbers on both sides.

So that's one matter that's still a little bit TBD, but in a very small and nuanced way.

Um, and then we've set out some of the timelines and procedures for arbitration throughout, but including under this section, which could involve you might have a dispute about what we're bargaining about, right?

Because you all recall when we voted through the charter amendment, um, the vast majority of terms and conditions of employment are subjects of bargaining, that's now in the city charter, but there's a few little exceptions to include para, because we don't really control that, um disciplinary appeals, which are uh set through CSA rules, and so if there was an argument that you know, probably labor, but one side or the other was trying to bargain about something that actually fell into one of those few things that aren't covered by the charter, you could end up with an arbitration.

That would be pretty unlikely given that the charter itself is pretty clear on this, but could happen.

Um we laid out payroll deductions, that's not addressed in the charter because it's too fine-grained, and a lot of the time, um, this is one of the first things that people will try to cover in a CBA.

So we tried to just get that out of the way a little bit and not cause us all to have to bargain about it 20 different times, um, and just you know, create the structure right here in ordinance.

So it makes it clear that employees in the city, which we I believe can do already, can go ahead and authorize a deduction for union news.

They can authorize other payroll deductions, which could include various voluntary political contributions not unique to labor or nonprofit contributions.

Um, and then in addition to that, to um add a little clarity to the specific context, we make it clear that once a particular group of employees has an official representative.

So once there's been an election and there's a union that's um representing that group of workers, at that point workers within that group can only authorize dues for that union, not another union, which is the point of being officially represented.

Um, so um, and then yeah, the city processes these deductions, transmits them to bargaining units.

We restrict how often employees can decide they don't want to pay union dues anymore, so that there's not a huge administrative burden on the city or the unions.

And this is actually all based on or much of it is sort of modeled from the um state law for county workers that passed legislature a couple years ago, which Dominic will remember, and many of the labor folks in the room will remember.

Um, and then we have there are some things that we needed to fill in about the actual process of bargaining.

We've created some dates here that um will allow the city to sort of phase out um bargaining so that we're not in bargaining with you know 10 new unions all at the same time or something like that, um, and so that this all will dovetail with the different charter deadlines that exist.

Um then at the end of bargaining, um, if there are disputes, and you know, ultimately a collective bargaining agreement is not reached per the charter, the first stage is mediation.

And then if even mediation doesn't get to an agreement, there can be for certain groups of employees a notice that they are going to engage in a collective labor action.

Employees can also choose instead to just go to binding arbitration at that point.

So they don't have to decide that they're going to engage in collective action.

And then for the few groups of employees that don't have collective action rights because they're you know particularly sensitive, like court employees and Denver water employees, they would just go to binding arbitration.

That is quite similar to the uniforms.

And then the main thing here, we also put a little bit of flesh on the process for going to court if there is a mayoral determination that these particular employees actually cannot engage in the action that they're proposing because it would be too dangerous to the public.

We have a path for the unionized employees to then challenge that in court, and we made that a little bit more clear just in terms of when you have to file with the court and asking the court to treat it as expedited and some things like that.

But most of that, including like the standard of review, actually is in the charter.

So it's not a lot that we're adding here.

It's very procedural.

And then we've added some employee protections that labor pointed out to us we should address at this stage.

We've people do engage in collective action.

They can't, you can't hire replacement for them while they are out.

They have to be reinstated when it's over.

That's basically the same thing, as long as they are engaging in a lawful labor action under this the charter and this statute.

Um their wages and benefits will be suspended, but healthcare insurance will not be removed.

The employee, however, can have to pay back their portion of the insurance after the action is over.

So people won't, because obviously, if you lose your health insurance, then it's gone for at least a year.

So we want to make sure that didn't happen.

Um, but doesn't change the cost balance between everybody, it just sort of lays out the procedures for all of this to happen.

Um let's see, I think I may have already talked about most of this actually.

Yep, I think I did.

All right.

Um this was a slide from before about the impasse process.

All of this is basically what's laid out in the charter.

We just really like this slide.

So if anyone needs a reminder, um, it was created by Emily Ocho and Councilmember Gonzalez Gutierrez's office, and Megan I'm in my office.

Um, and then we have a section about unfair labor practices.

So this is important because this is like, you know, what if someone is um just not behaving right in this process, and that could be anybody, that could be um someone within the city, that could be unions, that could be employees, that could be anybody.

Um, so there's some clear guidelines as to what city entities can't do, really common sense.

You can't retaliate against your employees for union activity.

Um, you can't try to interfere with uh unions or create um fake unions basically that are actually the city.

We can't use important, we can't use public resources to support or oppose unions.

I think we all know that.

Um, and that's already an obligation that would apply to council members, and I think probably from underlying law to the city, but just clarifying that here, we can't refuse to bargain in good faith.

Um, we can't deny an employee their representation rights in a grievance process.

So once they have a union representing them, um they have the right to have that those folks there if they are um they're pursuing a grievance.

Um, and then on the union side, the employee organization side, they can't coerce employees to join, they can't be intimidating, make untrue statements, again, refuse to bargain in good faith, or for both sides, actually, you can't refuse to comply with decisions of arbitrators.

So all of this is pretty common sense.

Um, generally speaking, the remedy for all of this would be to fire file a complaint of unfair labor practices with the panel of arbitrators.

Um, we are still working out there should probably be a slightly different process if an individual employee has a complaint, because that's not really appropriate for arbitration.

Um I think we're gonna come to a very positive solution on that, and we're just not quite there, but stay tuned on that piece.

I'll make sure that we affirmatively send that out to all of counsel when we get there, but just know that we're not neglecting the idea that for individual employees, the right remedy is not an arbitration that's paid for by the city and the union.

The right remedy is another kind of process that echoes retaliation types of complaints across all kinds of statutes in the city and the state.

So all right.

With that, that's we're actually at next steps.

Um, we're here in Mayor Council, we're hoping to be a first reading on the third and second reading on the 10th.

Um, I love that IN pulled up all these great pictures from the charter process.

And the one thing I would add is just that we have a bunch of expertise in the room.

And I'm also gonna go over.

Sorry, before I do that, I'm gonna go over the few things that are definitely outstanding because I told Councilmember Torres I would do that.

Um the individual unfair labor practices process we mentioned.

Um we are still getting to the details about release time and who will be on bargaining teams.

I think I mentioned that.

Um we're talking a little bit about what happens if um there's sort of a just uh dispute while a collective warning agreement is in place or a need to change its terms because something has changed.

So midterm bargaining, we're still talking about.

Um that's really it, those three things.

Um, so with that, before I go to questions, I just want to point out to everyone that we have a lot of folks available to answer questions.

Um we have people from the teams from um Ask Me, the Teamsters and CWA who have been working on this alongside all of us.

Um, so in addition to Dominic and Council Member Torres and myself, um, we have Heidi with OHR, who's our new labor expert, and Katie with the city attorney's office.

Um, they are both here if you have um those kinds of questions on the city side.

Do you guys want to stand up really quick?

Heidi Scram and Katie Smith.

Um, thank you both so much for all the work.

And then on the union side, I know we have Dennis McCormick in the room from the Teamsters who's been on the on the in the small group, um, Lauren Cesario on behalf of CWA, and then um Sean Hinga on behalf of Ask Me, where's Sean go?

Sean's, of course, with the green shirts.

Um, and then um online, we have Steve Christberg, who is uh Ask Me attorney in Washington DC, who retired right before this, and we brought him back just to help us.

So thank you, Askme, for um the benefit of Steve's wisdom.

Steve is kind of the like attorney brain on the labor side if you have that kind of question.

So with that, um, let me just see if do you want to add anything?

Yeah.

No, I I think the council sponsors gave a great overview.

Um, you'll see from the draft of the ordinance is really truly the mechanics of how this process will work.

Um so it's been great working with the council sponsors and um, you know, the CAO and OHR and our labor partners have been really critical in providing feedback.

Awesome, thank you.

Um, and just a point of clarification for everyone in the room.

Um, so council member me, councilmember Alvidres, and Councilmember Watson sit on the council appointment committee.

Um, so we do all of the council appointments, um, interviews and things like that.

So just to clarify, there are five arbitrators right now for state that have qualifications in safety arbitration.

Um, we don't ever interview our arbitration candidates due to some legal uh things that happen.

Um, but we do just legal stuff.

Um, and uh and so we did appoint our last arbitrator last night.

Um the approval went through, so just so council members are aware um the arbitrators that currently exist um have expertise in safety in particular, but they are all members of um national arbitration panels um and those kinds of things.

Um, some of them live in state, some of them live out of state, and um they are all well qualified.

So there is a pool that exists already.

Um we may need to expand that pool based on the specific expertise that we may need for this, but just flagging that for the public and for everyone in the room because there was a question about that.

Uh, Councilmember Parity, did you want to add something?

Yeah, just super quickly.

We did just to be super clear, we um as sponsors, um, are recommending that council cross appointment from that same pool.

Um, and we've talked to all of the partners, and I think everybody feels good about that.

So just to know we're not looking at having different arbitrators for safety versus all the other employees.

Um, they have the right expertise, and so I think we're good to go on that.

Thank you for clarifying that.

Yeah, absolutely.

So before we get to council member questions, we've got public comment.

Sure.

Um, so if you have signed up for public comment, can I get in the cue?

Yeah, can I just get us ready to public comment and then I'll add you to the queue.

Thanks.

Um, so we've got public comment.

Speakers will have two minutes.

Um, we do have one speaker who's online, so we're gonna go to her first, um, just for tech reasons, and then we'll go to everyone in the room.

Um, Lauren, online, you may not be able to see the two-minute timer also due to tech reasons.

I apologize for that.

Um, so we're gonna track it in the room as well so that you've got um, so we can give you a 30-second warning if you need it.

So, with that, we we are gonna start public comment.

We're gonna go online.

Um, Lauren, if you can accept the promotion, that would be great.

There we go.

Fantastic.

Um, all right.

Please introduce yourself and go ahead.

Um, thank you, counsel, for giving me the chance to speak.

Um, I'm Lauren Siegmiller.

I've worked for Denver Public Library for 12 years.

Uh, for almost five years, my co-workers and I have fought for a voice in our workplace as Denver Public Library Workers United.

Working to change labor law has been the honor of my life.

This fight has taught me that our efforts are only meaningful if strong bargaining rights prevail with council's unanimous referral of measure to you and a subsequent two to one victory at the ballot box.

Denver clearly supports these rights.

Three weeks ago, I broke my kneecap uh with a PTO balance of less than two weeks.

OHR informed me yesterday that my care team submitted it in a complete form.

I have until the end of the week to correct it or my leave could be denied.

I lost an entire day trying to contact OHR with zero response yesterday.

My doctor is only in her clinic one day a week.

I don't know what will happen if I fail.

Uh, I do know that a loyal 12-year employee does not deserve this.

Um, I bring this up not just to complain, but because I wonder what if we already had a contract.

Would I have separate sick and vacation banks?

Would I earn more PTO?

Would I have a grievance process, which DPL eliminated in 2019?

As you continue to refine and amend the ordinance, I ask you to prioritize the perspective of the powerless.

What would even the playing field between a library assistant who feels physically unsafe and the supervisor who tells them to toughen up or find a new job?

Or between the side hustling supply clerk and the common station system that keeps their wages too low to live on.

What would make our jobs good enough to keep good people in their jobs?

The ordinance is a chance not just to catch Denver up to unionized cities like Columbus, Santa Fe, and Salt Lake City.

It's a chance to set gold standard legislation for public workers.

I can't say it better than City Auditor O'Brien, whose office voluntarily recognized their staff union.

Unions strengthen workplaces, amplify uh employee voices, and ensure a more transparent and fair work environment by unionizing our service to the public only.

I'm sorry, just one last thought to finish up.

Great, okay.

Thank you very much.

Um, now we're gonna turn to the speakers who have signed up in the room.

Um first is Peter Simon.

Hello.

Okay.

Good morning, and thank you for this opportunity to address this body.

My name is Peter Simon, and I am a member of Denver Public Library Workers United.

Um last fall, 65% of Denver voters said that they want uh city workers like myself to organize to have the ability to organize unions and negotiate contracts with the city.

Um we are in the process of doing that now.

Uh the formation of a union is democracy in the workplace, and we have the support of a majority of people in our uh bargaining unit to be the uh body which will negotiate with DPL management for a contract.

We are not alone in our effort to uh form a union and negotiate a contract.

The employees of the city auditor's office are doing the same thing, and their management has graciously decided to uh move directly to negotiations without necessitating a costly election uh within the bargaining unit in that office.

We've been meeting with library management.

We believe it is in the best interest of everyone to follow the auditor's office lead in this regard.

Um we will adhere to whatever rules this body comes up with for labor negotiations, and we ask that management does the same.

The DPL workers united love the library.

And we know that this uh the management of the library loves it as well.

We believe there should always be a healthy tension between management and workers.

And that's your time.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Um next up we have uh Hannah Heredia.

Um hello.

Good morning.

My name is Hannah Heridia, and I am a city employee of the Department of Human Services and a proud member of Ask Me.

Um I want to begin by thanking the city council for offering, um, for standing with city workers from referring measure to you to the ballot last year, to offering your support during the summer's layoffs.

You've shown that you value the people who keep the city running.

I also want to thank the members of the council who signed the letter challenging these new changes to the city's layoff decisions earlier this year.

Your willingness to stand up for fairness and transparency meant a lot to the workers who felt blindsided by these circumstances.

But even with that support, the past few months have deeply shaken the confidence of the city workers.

Just before the layoffs, the mayor and the career service board changed a decades-old system based on seniority.

A system that us workers trusted.

Overnight, a process that had always been clear and fair to us was replaced by one that messed one that left many unsure about their place and their future.

That decision, whether intended or not, eroded trust.

And that trust, once lost, is not easily restored.

If we are to rebuild, it must begin by ensuring that the city workers can count on fairness and stability.

They need to know that the rules they work under will not change suddenly or without dialogue.

The policy before you today is an opportunity to do exactly that, to reaffirm the partnership between the city and its workforce.

It's a chance to show that the city.

It's an opportunity to do exactly that to reaffirm the partnership between the city and its workforce.

It's a chance to show that the city values not only the work we do, but also the voices and experiences of the people who do it.

As we approach 2026, workers are not asking for special treatment, we're asking for collaboration, communication, and consistency.

When these elements are present, morale grows, services improve, and hard-fought trust returns.

So I ask the council, continue to walk beside us as we move forward.

Help us rebuild the confidence in the city we serve and make sure every worker from the newest hired to the most seasoned employee knows that their contribution matters.

Thank you for your time and your continued partnership with the people who keep Denver strong.

Great.

Thank you.

Next up we have Jade Kelly.

I can approach it.

Yeah.

Hello, council.

My name is Jade Kelly.

I'm the president of CWA Local7799, representing thousands of workers in higher education, healthcare county workers, public defenders, and of course my union sister and brother in Denver Public Library Workers United and Pike's Peak Library Workers United as well.

I want to thank you all for participating in the rules process and continuing to make it better.

I'm really excited about some of the changes that came through this morning and continuing to work out and add some of that flesh.

I never heard that analogy until this, and that scares me, but I'm also excited about it.

Feels good with Halloween coming up.

But I want to just say three quick things.

I know I'm running out of time, but one is that this is a really great opportunity to create the gold standard for what collective bargaining looks like.

I think we showed in this process in this campaign that Denver was an extreme outlier among cities all across America that did not have collective bargaining rights.

And this is a real opportunity to correct an injustice where workers have not been at the table and not had those rights.

And there's a reason why I'm here today.

I believe, like many of you believe, that workers' rights are human rights.

There could be a lot of organizations, a lot of fights I'm in.

I am in organized labor because I believe that health care, paychecks, the ability to have a good grievance policy is really important to human dignity, and that is why I'm here.

That's why I'm giving every free moment of my life, of my weekend, weekday nights, weekends, fighting for this cause.

The second thing I really want to focus on is something that my union brother Peter Simon said: car check is smart, it allows us to skip an election process that can be expensive, it can add some tension, it can have some opportunities for ULPs and union busting.

It's good for both sides.

The third thing I want to mention is just a couple of things on the collective labor action.

Um there's something that I appreciate.

There's no ability to permanently replace an employee.

We need to strengthen that to make sure this says there's no temporary replacement.

That can also add tensions in that situation, having temporary replacements coming into the workplace, expand budgets more than that they were expected to, and really making sure that you know anything that is a gold standard for what that looks like, which the voters approve.

And that's your time.

Thank you.

Next up, we have Michael Wallen.

Good morning, Council members.

Thank you for being here this morning.

My name is Mike Wallen.

I'm the president of AFSME Local Union 158.

We represent City and County of Denver employees, or one of the unions representing City and County of Denver employees.

I've been with the city 14 years.

And in fact, I am the area transportation engineer for Councilman Flynn, Councilwoman Alvedrez, Councilwoman Romero Campbell, as well as Councilman Cashman.

First, I want to acknowledge the hard work that you all have done here, and I hope this doesn't get awkward.

Uh, I want to acknowledge the hard work that you all have done here, uh, passing ballot measure to you, uh, which voters overwhelmingly approved, and which will implement collective bargaining uh for city uh for city workers.

Um, of course, this comes at a difficult time for workers having uh gone through our recent layoffs.

Uh voter uh employees were watching their colleagues getting laid off.

There's a little bit of survivor skill there.

Uh there is also a lot harder work being done by city workers.

Uh I'm the air uh when I started in this job, each council district had its own engineer.

Now we have four council districts sharing one engineer.

So the resources are stretched and they're stretched thin.

So uh I just want to add that you know that workers deserve a voice in their workplace.

This includes the ability to communicate among your colleagues, among your coworkers, so uh without fear of retaliation.

So this policy um, so also just want to, I know my time's running out, so thank you for all the hard work that you have done.

We appreciate it.

Uh, and I'm sure my union colleagues also appreciate.

So thank you.

Thank you.

Next up, we have Heather Burke.

Good morning.

Good morning.

My name is Heather Burke.

I'm an employee with Adams County Human Services.

I'm also the president with ASME, local 3927 for our workers.

Um I'm in interview in solidarity with our.

Excuse me.

I'm in solidarity with the workers here in Denver, looking forward to the right for collective bargaining.

I can say, as someone who is Adams with Adams County, when we voted to form a union in 2019, life is better with a union contract for everyone.

Management and workers alike.

It provides clarity and security for everyone with a contract.

We all know where we stand on crucial issues such as wages, discipline, organizing activity, and much more.

It changes the workplace culture for better.

When workers are guaranteed basic rights and a voice at the table, they have the security to do their jobs more effectively.

Issues are brought up before the they become critical, and frustration can be channeled towards collect collaborative solutions, and trust is built between workers and their employer.

Of course, it's not perfect, no workplaces, but by allowing workers to freely vote to organize, the city and city of Denver as a whole will be better for it.

But that depends on how the city chooses to approach the issue.

Should the city choose to limit the extent to workers, feel free to openly organize and discuss unionization, sorry, unionization.

It could exacerbate already existing problems with the city workforce.

For example, we are able to use our county emails to discuss union business in a department like human services where workers are often out in the field working at home or in different locations.

It gives us the ability to smoothly conduct union activity in a modern work environment environment.

And for the Adams County, it costs nothing.

It also allows us direct contact to our labor relations person, Amy, and labor relations also has direct contact to us while we're out in the fields.

By having a voice on the job alongside mutual respect and resources from management to have smoother operation, our union has already made Adams County a better place to work and live.

As you all consider this policy, I hope you all see this as a chance to improve Denver through open communication, worker protections, and clear and clear and fair rules for all.

Thank you.

Great, thank you.

Last up we have Ronnie Houston.

Good morning, everybody.

My name is Ronnie Houston.

I am a 51-year teamster.

I want to thank this committee.

Goes out for the courage that you guys had.

In supporting this two you initiative ballot.

So that the workers of Denver County, the city workers could have collective bargaining.

Usually my voice is a little strong.

But this old man is not feeling well this morning, but I still gotta get my point over.

I want you guys to understand how much love I have in my heart for what you guys have done.

The hard work you put in, the understanding and the compassion that has gone into this hard work.

This brother thank you.

I am a 51-year product of collective bargaining.

I know what it does.

I know how it changes your life.

I know how it takes you out of the ghetto and puts you in middle class.

I'm a testament, a living example to what it does.

Everybody wants a livable wage.

Everybody wants good health care.

Everybody wants a pension, everybody wants safety rules.

Everybody wants to be respected.

Everybody wants their voices heard.

Thank you, council, for participating.

And thank you for your compassion.

I know it took courage.

And I want to say from the bottom of my heart, I love you for it, because Denver is going to be a better, stronger city for what you guys have done.

Thank you.

Godspeed, stay focused, get it done.

Remember, you are Denver.

All right, thank you.

I don't know that anybody wants to follow that up.

But we do have two more minutes.

If there's one other speaker who would like to join us, who's in the audience today, please feel free to stand up now.

Okay.

That was a great ending.

Really appreciate that.

Um we are gonna go to council member questions.

Before we do, I just want to welcome Councilmember Gonzalez Gutierrez to the meetings.

Um we're gonna start with Council Pro Tem Romero Campbell.

I'm your first.

Thank you, uh Madam Chair, and thank you to the sponsors for bringing this forward, um, and taking the time to do the briefing beforehand, uh, answering the questions and clarification.

Uh it's a process question.

I don't know if it goes into this into what's being constructed now for process.

Is there a season for the negotiations?

I know the negotiations have happened at different times um with uh the safety departments, but in consideration for like how we're thinking about budget, um, does it matter or I this I just don't know.

And we're in the middle of budget season, so it's just kind of top of mind of is there a season that people go through and negotiating?

Do we think about it in the current budget that people are negotiating or for future?

Um, so in the first year, and I put the timeline back up on the on the slide so you can see uh the range of dates um by which uh certain things have to begin.

Um, so by uh April 30th, we need a notice to bargain.

So certain things have to be completed in order to get to that benchmark.

Um bargaining needs to begin within 30 days of that and must start by October 1st.

So there's a hard deadline on when that has to start in terms of actually bargaining.

Now, if you'll remember for police, sheriff, and fire, once they actually get into bargaining, it's up to that conversation whether or not it's a one, two, three-year um uh agreement.

Um, and so we couldn't predict necessarily when exactly those uh will be set.

That'll be part of the bargaining conversation, the same as it is with safety right now on how long we end up creating an agreement for.

Um, and then it'll be um every term after that that we come back to the table.

So, yes, there will be a lot um happening um at any one time.

This is a year that we've had all three safety CBAs up for us to bargain.

It also hasn't always been the case, but um it can for sure.

Um, thank you.

That's that helps.

I appreciate that.

Um, do you miss it?

Okay, so it's kind of a TBD and yeah, but there are there are there are timeline benchmarks for when uh we actually begin it.

Okay, thank you.

I appreciate that.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Great, thank you.

Councilmember Alvidras.

Thank you so much for letting me get in the queue.

Um I just have one question.

Is there anything?

I didn't see it in the slides, but is there anything about where people can meet or gather within the city or how um what documents can be given to city workers by the city as far as fact sheets, and also um how we're allowing the unions to engage with workers?

Okay, thank you for that.

John, would you mind um kicking us off on on those responses?

John Griffin, deputy legislative council.

Can you repeat the first part of the question?

So the first part was um where or are they provided a space where they can communicate within the city?

Yeah, so um we do allow for uh communications via email.

Can you introduce yourself, please?

Oh, I thought uh Jonathan Griffin, Deputy Legislative Council.

Um, so they are allowed right now to communicate via email.

Um there's also posting requirements that you're allowed to do, and if you wanted to like have a town hall or something, you can the major kind of guardrail around that is it can't occur during kind of like normal when you're on the clock, essentially.

But is there a place within the city buildings where we are going to allow them to like set up a table or distribute information?

I we don't in the ordinance we don't outline anything that is allowed.

I think that would be more a kind of facilities question about where you can do it if you are making an organization effort.

There are requirements that there's postings on billboards and whatnot.

Okay, and then the second part was I'm curious about information that like a manager might be giving their staff that could conflict with the actual information from the union or other information.

So is there any guardrails against management or higher ups in the city misinforming or discouraging that?

Yeah, I mean, broadly that's covered with an unfair labor practices that management can't do anything to know, you know, knowingly give people false information or discourage them from from participating in a union.

Okay, thank you.

And that's a slide, uh, councilwoman um number 20.

Um, uh, and then it's it reflects what's exactly in the ordinance as well, what the corporate authority cannot do, which is us, city, um, and then what employees cannot do.

And this is the the piece that we're still ironing out.

We know the process if the union has an unfair labor practice claim against the city or vice versa.

We know what that process is.

What we're um still figuring out, which we hope to uh by the time it comes to the floor.

Um, what if a singular employee has an unfair labor practice claim against either one of those entities?

So um to two to be continued.

Okay.

Thank you.

Great, thank you.

Council President Sandoval.

Thank you.

Um, so to the two sponsors moving this forward into John.

Currently, right now, under our three collective bargaining units, police, sheriff, and fire, are they allowed to use their Denver Gov email to do any collective bargaining to share information?

From what I understand, they're not allowed to.

And from what I understand, they have to use comp time or take PTO time to do any of that.

Is that accurate?

Jonathan Griffin W legislative council, yes, that's uh I believe that's accurate.

That's a difference between the citywide ordinance and what's currently provided for in the safety uh bargain.

So the citywide ordinance would allow them to use their their government their Denver Gov emails.

Yeah, the statewide ordinance uh specifically um allows them to negotiate on the clock, and then it also does allow for them to use their city emails provided that they're not doing so uh with some reasonable restrictions around doing so on the clock and not taking away from garbage job duties.

Um, and that was something I'm part of that's a policy call that I might leave to the sponsors to kind of discuss more about but that's the way it's currently written.

Okay, yeah.

So the this has been one of the things that took some time to kind of understand, like what's standard, what's done under other, you know, sort of bargaining regimes, right?

And the thing we've been turning to the most is the county worker act, um, because that's what applies to other county workers, you know, across the state, um, and that's kind of Denver was weirdly not included in that, right?

Um, because of being a city and county.

So um we are what we're what we currently have under discussion and is in the draft from this morning is the county worker act, but with a little bit of a um proviso to recognize some concerns from OHR.

So um the underlying principle is that it can't um you can only reasonably restrict email usage, um, and you can't sort of be like interfering with your work.

Um, and so we added a little bit of language that's come out in case law um to sort of clarify what the what reasonable restrictions could include.

Um so a lot of this is more of a um more of a standard than like a um extremely black and white set of rules because the underlying principle is that like you can't be um disrupting your work or not doing your job, you know.

Um but we did talk to labor about the um and they're this is super familiar issue, right?

Like this is an issue anytime people are public workers are bargaining, so all the public union employees could probably like write a treatise on this, or um, especially Steve actually probably could probably has written a treatise on this, so I may call him up next.

Um, but basically the thing about um your city email is that of course the city has the right to read that, and so it's gonna be limited.

Like people are primarily gonna use it to just find each other, um, and specifically in talking to Sean from Ask Me, who um you guys all know, and who again is really deeply intertwined with um all of the issues that different Asky bargaining units have around the state.

Um, many many employees don't have any other email, especially um people who work like more entry-level jobs, their city or government email is their only email address, and so if you're gonna find people and try to get their cell phone number, whatever, you've got to be able to send a mass email outside work hours.

Um, and say, Hey, can everybody send me their cell phone?

So that's what the state has done for other county workers.

Um, it's there's you know, it's not permitted to um keep people from doing their jobs or interfere with city systems, but there's sort of this natural control on it because the city can read that email, so people aren't gonna overuse it for this purpose.

If that makes sense, if I can add to that really quickly, I think what what we've been experiencing have been um uh almost veteran CBA process with the safety departments, we've never come in where they've created one, right?

Um, and that's what we're dealing with here in employees like councilman parody said finding each other.

Um, and so what I imagine is um the bargaining unit then weighs the risks and the benefits to using uh city employee email or not.

Um, and so we've seen safety departments go the other direction and say we want our deliberations private.

Um we don't want these core ed, right?

Like things like that.

These these entities may end up going that direction, but we've got to give them a place to start.

So that was my thought process is if you're using city emails, it's Colorado Open Record Act, and so it I don't think that some of the emails that we work on, it's deliberative work product, right?

Because we're getting to legislation, but I don't think I don't know.

Correct me if I'm wrong, I don't think this would be protected.

Yeah, this wouldn't be protected, and so if somebody wanted to go out and show how city employees were using emails when trash wasn't supposed to when trash was supposed to, I I'm just worried that if with the use of city emails, which I agree, you have to be able to find someone that there are people out there that could um sabotage people if they were using it too much because your email would be open and they would be like, okay, you were sending that at 8 30 when you were on a trash truck deliver when you were picking up, you know, in solid waste and when you were at the parks and time stamping them because we're so time-stamped, and then also, um, I've had an experience where I worked for uh my one of my predecessor, someone came in on the back end because their public emails, and we didn't know that they had access to his inbox and a city attorney when we were looking at the permissions one day, a city attorney had total access to my predecessor's inbox, and they were monitoring everything he was sending and receiving.

And we we called IT and we were like, who is this person on the back end who has permission to my council members inbox?

And it was a city attorney, and that he was actively being investigated because he had joined um a micus brief against Park Hill, and so right when he signed up on that, they entered in, and we didn't know until we actually looked at the permissions one day.

We were literally like what is like something tweaked on his inbox, and I was like, Let's go into your permissions.

And so I just wanted to say that publicly because I though although I want us to be able to support them, I also want to as somebody who's been in the city and seen weird stuff happen in my inbox, and weird access happened to an elected officials inbox.

They're not our emails, they're a public entity emails.

So if you get I I just hope everyone who's watching, I would encourage you to set up a separate email, share your in information out, and don't use your email after that because there can be people who do CORA, like I've done work, and that core information will be dispersed to the media and used against me in a way where it was not even intended that way because the media just trying to change things around.

So just want to say that publicly as somebody who's had really some crazy experiences with um doing what I thought was official city business on city time.

I had the same reaction because the employment layer in me has had so many people across from me who had no idea that their boss could read their email, and I'm like, Yeah, the company owns it, you know.

And so I was sort of like, are you guys sure you want the common email?

And they were like, Yes, we are, we know how to handle it, we'll tell our people.

So it but it's pretty you're making me laugh because I Sean can verify that we had this exchange where I was like, Oh, and he was like, No, just so yeah, I just think that that education's half the battle, right?

And when people don't know to Councilman Torres's point, when we bargain, we're bargaining with three entities that have been around for a really long time.

Right.

Um, if you're I don't know very many um firefighters who are part of a different union other than 858 local um for the city and county of Dunber.

I don't know many fire police officers who are part of PP 8.

I know there's a couple up there who have joined, but it's easy to bargain with them, and what I think the city is gonna do is have all these different unions representing different aspects, and then that is challenging that could be a little bit challenging.

Cause one union might have a different structure than a different union have a different structure.

And so, in my experience, I had seen people in the fire department leave the union because they weren't they didn't agree with it, but with not having just like local A58 represent the firefighters, there's just different structures out there, and so I just want to make sure that we are protecting the people who want to go out there and bargain because I could just see this.

I'm always the person who's like, what are some of the things that what's my blind side to this as we get this started up?

And a really quick comment on that globally, because I think another thing you're picking up on, we started with an incredibly slim version of this draft that was just literally the things the charter told us we had to fill in, and then as we kept circling through the stakeholder group, um, we got to a point where now we're instead trying to anticipate all kinds of things for collective, could like thinking about what's um how this is gonna go and trying to get very ahead of um anticipating things, getting them resolved in advance, taking stuff out of contention, creating rules that will promote resolution, you know, like so that we I think for um councilmember Torres and I it like shifted as a project from just like let's do this checklist of things to like um a lot of, and that was thanks to all of the expertise that we had saying, like, can we just avoid this problem?

Can we avoid that problem?

So that's the that's the vibe.

Thank you.

Thank you, Madam Chair.

Yeah, thank you.

I think every single person in this room went to check their permissions on their email during this conversation.

Um thanks for that.

Councilmember Watson, you're up next.

Well, thank you, committee chair.

Uh, kind of a cadence and process question concerning uh bargaining units and the timing for when and how folks can bargain.

Pretty large city.

Um what's the cadence, the process?

Is there a certain number each year?

Talk me through a little bit of that.

Yeah.

Yeah, with that go ahead.

Okay, um, I'll start with um uh the charter lays out uh pretty clearly what that cadence should look like.

It is up to five in the first five years and then one every year thereafter.

Um, and so if we're looking back at that timeline slide, um uh bargaining needs to like there are there are um deadlines, um, and it really will be first through the door uh that will be bargained with and arrived at.

So um, if you don't make if you're the sixth um after those deadlines, you're you're waiting uh for five years.

And just a nuance to that, that's for new unions that are forming.

Once you've formed, you can you will bargain on whatever schedule you then agree to.

Yeah, so it could be annual, it could be like with the uniforms we've landed every three years for the most part, yeah.

Uh so just to be clear, that's for um your initial bargaining has that like titration, and that expires after I think five years or something.

So that's not eternal.

Um, and then as far as the timelines of bargaining, this is something I think is good for um the city in this initial period.

We have in the ordinance that um you once you have an agreement in place, you have to ask for bargaining by April of the year prior to the contract period that you'll be bargaining for.

So, in other words, you've got an annual agreement from January to December.

You have to tell the city that you want to reopen it by April.

So that gives us the whole rest of the year from April 30th onward, um, to conduct all of that bargaining.

So we're asking for notification really early, you know, seven months or whatever that is, or eight months before the um before the agreement expires, and the next one has to be in effect.

So we've given ourselves most of the year um for that to happen, if that makes sense.

And people couldn't notify earlier and and maybe should if they want to be.

Maybe the mayor's office wanted to jump in on that.

And just one more thing on uh the limitation of five uh bargaining units when the within the first five years, that only applies to executive employees, right?

So um, yeah, bargaining units that are organizing uh within agencies that report directly to the mayor, meaning not um the auditor, not Denver Water, not the library, you know, some of those funky ones.

So those are separate as well as the legacy safety.

Right ones based on the timing.

Exactly.

And none of this ordinance applies to the safety unions, they have pretty parallel provisions already.

So we could have, I suppose, done that if there were gaps, but there aren't.

And I my basis for the question is I'm looking at the timeline, and I'm also looking at our budgeting process.

I think we had a prior question on on budget, would really like a little bit more time to for us to talk through how that hits.

Um, if we have five new bargaining units, we just did the three safety bargaining units.

There is a certain amount of dollars, obviously, within we're in one right now, right?

And we're and we're deliberating budget.

We don't always know um when we're bargaining what the impact to next year's budget's gonna be.

Yeah, so that's my contingency, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

Uh that's gonna be something I would love to continue to dialogue on because uh contingency is not sticky, yeah.

So yeah, but then council member, I think we wouldn't have the ability, like in this ordinance that Tarzan I are putting forth, it's not the right place in the code, and it's not the right like place within council to figure out that issue.

I'm also concerned about that issue.

And I think of that as more of a budget process question, and so um just know like if you're taking a list of those who share the concern, I saw Sawyer, I saw Torres, I saw myself.

So yeah, I hear you on it.

But I don't really think we could, other than trying to keep the timing really smoothed out.

There's not a lot else that in this ordinance that we can do there.

All right, that makes sense.

That's helpful.

Thank you so much.

Uh, thank you, committee chair.

Great, thank you.

Um that is it for questions.

Sweet.

Anyone else going once?

Going twice?

Okay.

Um, I just wanted to say before we close, thank you.

Um to all of you who have been working on this and also to HR and city staff and all of our union representatives.

Um, this has been an extraordinary um uh example of teamwork and collaboration.

Um, to have, you know, gone through to you to have gone through the laying out of this ordinance.

I think um it is one of those rare, really wonderful moments where um everyone has come together.

Usually, you know, we get to something like this, and it's like, well, no one's happy, so we're in the right place, right?

Um, which is terrible, but true.

Uh in this case, I think that that's not right.

Everyone is happy, sure.

Everyone had to give a little bit in all different kinds of places, but everyone is pleased with where we have ended up with this, and that is extraordinary.

And that I think is reflective of the council sponsors of the mayor's office, of the the collaboration of all of the groups that have been working on this.

So I just want to acknowledge that publicly and say thank you for leading us to a place like this with something that's as important as this is.

So um just want to express my gratitude and acknowledge that.

Um, and with that, we will see you on the floor.

We will see you on the floor.

We do, this is an action item, so we'll lead a motion in a second.

Um, and then there are some.

All right, move by councilwoman Gonzalez Gutierrez, seconded by Councilmember Flynn.

Do we need a voice vote?

No.

All right, thank you.

Thumbs up for everyone.

We have a few items on consent um that no one has called off, and so those will go through to the floor as well.

And with that, we are adjourned.

Thanks for joining us.

Thank you.