Welcome back to this bi-weekly meeting of the Budget and Policy Committee of Denver City Council.

Join us for the discussion as the Budget and Policy Committee starts now.

Thank you.

Sorry about that.

I was finishing up a call.

Hi, everyone.

Welcome to Budget and Policy on Feb Monday.

February 9th. We'll get started with council introductions and then we can

start. I'll start with my left. I'm Councilwoman Amanda Sandoval. Good afternoon.

Daryl Watson, Fine District 9. Laura Alvitres, Lucky District 7. Chantal Lewis, District 8.

Sarah Parity, one of your council members at large. Hello, Sedona Gonzalez-

Kuchanas, your other council member at large. Kevin Flynn, Southwest Denver's

District 2. Stacey Gilmore, District 11. Good afternoon, Diana Romero-

Campbell Southeast Denver District 4 Jamie Torres West Denver District 3

hey Denver Chris Hines Denver's perfect tent great we have two briefings before

us today we have CPD here with us and then we have a by Councilmember Lewis

up next. So we have 42 slides. We have 45 minutes. I can go quickly. Okay. The next one we'll need to

have a little bit more time. The floor is yours. Cynthia, just introduce yourself. Sure. I'm Abby

Christman, Principal City Planner with Landmark Preservation and Community Planning and Development.

And I'm here today to talk about the We Are the Land project.

So this project was kind of co-led by me and my colleague, Becca Deershow.

But Becca Deershow is out on leave, so that is why you were only getting me today.

Just want to make sure that I acknowledge she put in an equal amount of the work.

So today I am going to go through what is We Are the Land, what were the parts of this project,

the community role, why we felt it was essential to center Native voices, our timeline and funding,

some highlights of what we heard from the community, community recommendations for the

city of Denver moving forward, and then what's next. So what is We Are the Land? We Are the Land

is an oral history project that centers American Indian voices to tell a fuller story of Denver,

one that didn't begin with the city's founding and didn't end with removal. It's a collaboration

between Landmark Preservation, Denver's American Indian community, and representatives from tribal

nations that have ongoing cultural and historical ties to the city to document living history,

traditional knowledge, and contemporary American Indian life. So this is the second in our Denver

in Context series. The goal of the series is to recognize and honor all those who have been part

of Denver's history, celebrating diverse cultures, and acknowledging tragic histories. Doing this by

connecting with the community, identifying significant places, elevating and sharing

stories, and then producing thematic context, like our big fat context that we have produced

for this project. So what is a historic context? It's a preservation term. It generally is talking

about documents that are really trying to tie stories, the stories of how a place, how

it developed, why it developed, where it developed with the built environment. So it's trying

to tell the history, but also tie it to the landscape around us. Explore how political,

social, cultural, and economic trends have shaped our built environment. And for this

project, we were definitely pushed by the community to really look beyond the built

environment and also really consider Denver as a cultural landscape or as an indigenous landscape.

And the goal of a context then is also to provide the tools we need to evaluate potential eligibility

of sites and landscapes for designation and to raise community awareness of history.

So the different parts of our project. So first off just a little bit about who was doing this

work, so our project team and roles. So Landmark was the lead on this. Our mighty team of three

people did all the project management, grant writing and administration, community engagement.

We organized tribal convenings. We provided research assistance. We wrote a national register

nomination, and we did a lot of context editing and revisions. Then we had Project Mosaic, who are

our indigenous consultants, and they provided engagement support, facilitation for events.

They did all the oral histories.

They provided kind of cultural competency lessons for us and also wrote the first and

last chapters of the context.

And then we worked with ERO Resources who kind of took what they heard from the community,

the oral histories, put those into a framework, and then did additional research around that

and wrote six chapters of the context.

So community engagement was really key. We tried to make sure that we were actively involving the community in the project and that we were doing that throughout the project.

So we had a variety of events throughout the project.

We were at Denver March Pow Wow for the last three years and will be there again this year.

We had two tribal convenings, some community roundtables.

We also worked with the American Indian Commission and had monthly advisory meetings that included community members.

We had two tribal convenings, the first in October 2023.

and then the second in October 2024.

And I know a lot of you were able to join us during that one

for the breakfast we had with city council.

We had 17 oral histories that were completed as part of this project.

They really formed the heart, kind of the backbone of the context.

We developed the context around these oral histories.

So the oral histories were done first, and then we kind of took those stories

to think about how we were going to arrange the historic context

around what we heard from the community.

And then we produced our historic context.

So it has eight chapters thematically arranged

and features directly the voices of the community.

So we just included straight a lot of quotes from the oral history

so that you were getting the direct voices of the community.

We then had a youth art contest.

to do the artwork. So our cover art and the beginning of each of the eight chapters,

those were all winners of the youth art contest we had. Looking for a way to really kind of

wanted to incorporate art as well as incorporate our local indigenous youth in the project.

And then finally, we have the documentary, which we premiered on Saturday. So thank you to all of

those who are able to join us. This was originally going to be done by the Office of Storytelling,

who had worked with us on the first context. Unfortunately, after the Office of Storytelling

was closed, we weren't sure what we were going to do here. But thankfully, thanks to our leadership

and community planning and development, we're able to come up with some funds that we could

hire consultants to be able to complete the documentary portion for us.

and then finally we well or I wrote a national register nomination for the Denver Indian Center

and it was officially listed on the national register in December it's really exciting because

even though kind of misnomer it's called the national register a lot of people assume everything

on the national register is nationally significant but actually the vast majority of sites on the

National Register are listed for local significance. And it's pretty rare for the National Register to

list things as being nationally significant. And we were able to get this listed at the national

level. So it's considered a national example of the significance of the role of urban Indian

centers in urban relocation and in kind of creating this pan-Indian culture of people from a lot of

different communities coming together in urban centers beginning in the 1950s and having this

cultural revitalization and having spaces like the Denver Indian Center where they could provide

mutual aid to each other and education and support and have things like wonderful powwow traditions

that come out of these urban Indian centers. So the role of the community in the project.

So the community is who developed our theme.

So we took what we heard from the community.

We developed these into themes.

We presented these back to the community and said, is this what you want the context to be about?

And they said yes.

So the chapters in the context, we have Denver as ancestral unceded territory, honoring the survivors and victims of the Sand Creek Massacre,

federal Indian policy and intergenerational trauma, indigenous language revitalization

and cultural preservation, the ongoing fight for rights and respect, indigenous resilience

and cultural resurgence, urban native communities and connections to tribal homelands, and

Denver as the center of Indian country, past and present.

We also worked with the community to shape the way the chapters are framed.

So something we heard a lot, particularly from the elders in the community, is that we really had to think about history as cyclical.

That the way that we were trying to tell this linear history isn't how their history is told.

And we needed to think about cyclical histories.

And so they introduced to us a concept of kind of the hills, and you have the hills of life.

And we adapted that based on their input in how we do the framework.

So each chapter is told within four hills.

And so the first hill is traditional knowledge.

The second hill is when they were removed from their homelands in Colorado.

Third hill is when they return.

And the fourth hill is today, the time of reconnection.

And centering things through the whole project was trying to make sure we made the project reciprocal.

and part of that was making sure we were compensating the community for their time.

So one of the things we heard from the beginning of the project is, you know,

the need for reciprocal relationships.

If you're going to have a true relationship, you know, people are giving things to each other.

It's not just a one-way relationship.

And so we were working throughout this to find what the community needed

so that we could have this exchange.

And so we wanted to make sure that this was a document that the community could use

and that we were doing a project that was going to be beneficial to them.

Part of the things through that was making sure we were working on the community timeline.

So we extended the length of the project so we could be sure that we had time to build relationships.

We made sure to provide honorariums for all of those who were providing,

sharing their knowledge and helping us with events.

Providing travel expenses for the tribal representatives to come.

making sure we were paying our community connectors who we had on the project,

giving gift cards for those who did oral histories, providing food at events, gifts for elders.

And then some of the real reciprocal items were making sure we created opportunities for community and tribal connections.

It's something we really heard from the community that those who live in Denver often sometimes feel disconnected from the tribal communities.

and so making sure that during our tribal convenings,

we had opportunities for the community to be able to come and connect with the tribal representatives.

Also really key was involving youth.

So we've made sure that we gave youth a role in our tribal convenings,

as well as having a big youth role in our event this past Saturday and having the youth art contest.

So why do we feel it was important to center Native voices?

First off, just to really build trust.

Because people aren't going to share their stories with us unless they trust us.

And certainly this is a community that has a whole lot of reasons not to trust government.

And so a lot of the first year, the project was just working to build trust so that we could get honest feedback and they would feel comfortable sharing their stories with us.

One of the big questions we asked throughout all of our engagement events was, what do you want Denver to know?

What do you want other people in Denver to know about the American Indian community in Denver?

We are also trying to challenge traditional views of expertise,

kind of sharing the power of who gets to tell their story,

balancing different narratives, and really placing a high value on lived experience,

not just on written sources.

Oral traditions are especially important to the indigenous community,

and written records often exclude these perspectives.

By centering the oral histories,

we allow people to tell their own stories

in their own words about their family's place,

trauma, resilience, and belonging.

And these stories really reveal relationships to Denver

that we wouldn't find

if we were just looking at traditional archival sources.

Working with the community also really challenges

to look beyond the built environment

and to look at the landscape of Denver.

Denver sits at the intersection of important waterways,

trade routes, and homelands for many tribal nations.

And those connections didn't disappear when the city was founded.

So by centering Native voices, telling them, you know,

we can tell the story from their perspective,

people whose families and communities have always understood this place

as part of a much larger indigenous landscape

that is tied to their identity and history.

So, our timeline and funding.

So, I first started on this project in 2022.

It was actually set up by a staff person before me who left, and I kind of, Beck and I came in.

And when we took over, we had a budget of just over $77,000 that had been put together through several grants and funding from Denver Mountain Parks.

And the scope was just to hire a consultant to complete a context study and to do a National Register nomination.

So we didn't have any budget for engagement and we had a pretty limited

somewhat consultant budget. So our current budget now that we are wrapping up the

project is about three hundred and twenty thousand dollars. So there's been a lot

of additional fundraising we have done throughout the project. So where do we

spend all that additional money? To be able to hire consultants to do the

documentary, to have some additional consultant time because of the length of

the project. To be able to do tribal collaboration. So doing those two tribal events, you know, having

the venues, the food, paying for all the travel for the representatives, honorariums for the

representatives, lodging for the representatives. It's a big cost at community events. Being sure we

were providing compensation for everyone doing oral histories, having recording equipment and

transcription software for those doing the boost at Denver

March Powwow.

Being able to hire a photographer for our events,

who's done this lovely photography for us.

Doing the art contest and also being able to hire a graphic

designer to do the final layout of the context for us.

So, it's kind of all the funding sources now that we have put

together at the end of the project.

So in our updated timeline, so we started in 2022 thinking it was going to be a two-year project, but we really realized we needed a lot of time just to be able to build relationships.

So we really built relationships through 2023, had our first convening, then did the oral history interviews in the second convening in 2024, then really started developing the context after we had all that knowledge from the community.

Worked on the context throughout 2025, put it out for community review, and then just had our kind of documentary context release celebration event this past weekend.

So I just wanted to highlight and wrap up some of the key things we heard from the community.

Something we heard often was that we should always be remembering that Denver is built on ancestral unceded tribal land.

This land was home to indigenous peoples long before the city existed and it was never formally surrendered or given up through a treaty.

And these tribal nations continue to have deep ongoing relationships to the land.

stories of trauma and resilience. We heard this related to boarding schools and we also really

heard this related to the Sand Creek Massacre, that it's not just a historical event. It is an

ongoing living trauma that continues to impact the community today and that we really need to

acknowledge Denver's role in it, that it's not just something that happened far off on the eastern

planes. The policies that led to the Sand Creek Massacre were set in Denver. The militia left

from Denver. They returned to Denver and celebrated in the streets with some pretty horrific parades

after. And, you know, were kind of key in a part of distorting the story. And so making sure that

we really kind of acknowledge that as part of Denver's history. And then really acknowledging,

you know, knowing that Native history didn't end. Far too often, the American Indian community feels

like they're looked at as something of the past. And so one of the big things we heard is to

remember that we're still, you know, that they're still here. And so that long before Denver became

a city, this area was and still is part of a much larger indigenous landscape defined by waterways

like the South Platte, trade routes, seasonal movement, and cultural connections among many

tribal nations. So some of the recommendations we heard from the community during our tribal events

and community engagement. So collaboration. We'd really like the city to maintain a government-to-

government relationship with tribes through both official and more informal methods and to keep

repeating the convening event on a yearly basis. So Landmark organized the first two tribal

convenings this past year, then it was organized by CASER. So the hope is that this can continue

to kind of rotate through different departments to continue. Language. We heard that they would

like to see more incorporation of American Indian languages in Denver, included Native American

place names on signage, such as street signs, park signs, directional signs. Promoting traditional

practices, so having more of a focus in the city on stewardship and respect for the land by

reintroducing native plants and parks, incorporating traditional knowledge,

establishing a land management partnership between the city and tribal nations,

creating places for Native American community to come and maintain and collect medicinal and

culturally significant plans.

And some of that is currently underway in the project

that's going on in City Park.

And then education, to make sure that we include

Native history and school curriculums at all levels,

host Native storytelling events, and collaborate

with tribes on a permanent exhibit that tells the story

of all 48 tribes.

Recognition and respect, to have interpretive signage

in parks and other city spaces that recenters

American Indian history, particularly at Confluence

Park, along the South Platte, and at Red Rocks.

And to go beyond current land acknowledgments and do more living land acknowledgments.

And then finally, to have community resources.

Something we heard throughout the project was the need to have a gathering place for

tribal representatives coming to Denver and to be able to link Native community members

with resources and support from their tribes, governments, and nonprofits.

So we're excited that, you know, we got to see that coming together in the American Indian

Cultural Embassy.

So what's next?

So we hope that the We Are Land—the land project will be a starting point, not an ending.

That there is deeper collaboration with tribal communities, better representation of Native

history in Denver, and potentially new landmark designations.

So I've already been talking after this weekend to some members of the community that are already looking at how they can take what's presented in the We Are the Land context and incorporate that into the work that's being done on the American Indian Cultural Embassy, as well as on the work in City Park.

Some of the things we are also looking at in Denmark,

we would love to see what we could do to get a new marker at Camp Weld,

something that's designed by the American Indian community

and really tells the story of what happened at Camp Weld and treaties that were broken.

And then the other, you know, when we asked the community,

what are the most important places in Denver to you?

it was unanimously either the Denver Indian Center or the Confluence.

And so we would also really like to see if maybe there's some type of landmark designation

or interpretation or combination of things that could be done at Confluence Park

to really be able to raise, you know, and really recognize the significance of Confluence.

And then next year, we will be starting our next project in Denver in Context,

which will be an LGBTQIA historic context.

And I brought, if anyone is interested,

I'm going to pass around, I have stickers.

If anyone would like some stickers for our upcoming project.

And that is it.

If you have any questions that I have,

we will eventually get all of you.

Anyone who's interested, happy to provide a copy.

I have a few extra copies with me today.

So I think I have five copies today.

If anyone really wants one today,

If not, I will get one to you over the next couple weeks.

Thank you.

Yes, the PDF is posted on our website.

Okay.

Thank you so much.

What an important project and so important to make sure.

One question.

Is it translated into Spanish?

No, it's not.

We didn't have translation for this project.

It was something when we.

Well, but Councilman first and I paid for it.

Did you explore that at all?

We did. We asked the community and felt like did they feel within the community there was a particular language that it needed translating into.

And we, they, you know, basically that there are so many languages represented within the American Indian community.

They didn't, you know, identify a single language that they felt it needed to be translated into.

But certainly we're open.

If somebody would like to help us translate it, we'd certainly be happy to translate it.

Awesome.

All right.

First in the queue, I have something first, followed by all of your guests.

Anyone else?

Thank you, Madam President.

Thank you, Abby.

And thanks to Becca, who had a baby.

And your team worked so hard.

And it was this, I think, learning process for everyone along the way to go,

okay, let's not do that again.

Let's do it better next time.

and like constant, and you were just all so appreciative, I think, of that knowledge and

advice from the advisory committee. So really appreciate them and their time and their eyes on

this and all of you for making sure that this really did get the resources it needed to be

completed in a way that really respected everyone's time. Because what I remember most intently

was we were developing, I think, what is the process going to be.

But you don't capture people's stories without also letting them know

how you're going to be responsible with that information

and with those stories once you have it.

And for a community that's constantly been taken advantage of over generations,

that was a big discussion point for us,

was how do we do this in a really respectful and caring way.

And so thank you for doing that.

And it was such an interesting process.

I will just speak to, I think, what's next.

And we've already gotten one inquiry for holding a community viewing of the documentary.

Reach out to Abby and team if that's something that you want to host in your council district.

I really do look forward to more people seeing this and being able to take a look at the different chapters and the stories that were provided.

And the documentary is a great entry point into discovering why this is such a profound piece of work.

So I just thank you so much.

And one quick note, I've been working with Dawn DePrince at History Colorado about the weld, the camp weld marker.

And it's in her queue to replace, as she's doing, all of the statewide marker, basically updates and replacements.

And she's working directly with the northern and southern Cherokee and Arapaho tribes because of the Sand Creek relationships that they've built there.

But I'll be really thrilled to see what comes of that conversation for that marker.

But just my thanks and job well done.

Thank you so much.

Thank you.

Next up we have Councilwoman Alvidrez.

Thank you, Council President.

Thank you so much for the work.

It was really fascinating to be there on Saturday and learn more about the project.

I know the Four Winds Council in District 7 was a part of it, which is really meaningful.

So definitely curious about having something in our district to re-share the video.

I wonder if you could speak to a little bit.

stories and focusing on the individuals, but one of the things that I've been very reflective

on as a council member is the historical animals that used to be here in Lake Bison in particular

that used to normally roam in District 7 and actually used to wallow at Wash Park.

And I'm curious how did the focus on our other indigenous relatives play into this

work and is there thought around that when you're talking about landmarks and marking

where also our four-legged relatives?

Yeah, that would, yeah, it's certainly, you know,

the four-legged relatives were definitely part of the cultural landscape,

and we heard a lot about the balance that has been lost,

that, you know, the balance between the animals and plants and the tribes

and, you know, maintaining, you know,

and how we can look really to that kind of traditional knowledge

to help us as we face environmental challenges today.

And certainly a lot also we spent time going up to, you know, working with Denver Mountain Parks and talking a lot about the Bison Transfer and other programs that they have in mountain parks as well.

Yeah, I think maybe even just like at Smith Lake, at Wash Park, acknowledging that history would be something I would love to see.

Thank you.

Thank you, Council President.

Council Pro Temer, Mayor Comebo.

Thank you, Madam President.

And thank you for the presentation.

It was so exciting to see the presentation on Saturday and really well done.

I think oftentimes we talk about government going slow.

And the takeaway from what you shared with us today is you took the time to slow down

and to be very thoughtful and mindful as to how those engagements are

and how people are incorporated into the process.

And so I just really commend you on taking that time.

And also just the work.

I know people have contributed in different ways and, you know, in very significant ways.

But I think those all of those pieces made it such a more authentic and engaged process.

At least that's what I heard from the people that I spoke to.

So I just look forward to reading the report and just wanted to say good job.

It's exciting.

Thank you.

Thank you, Madam President.

Good job.

Councilmember Guillemar?

Thank you.

Thank you for all the work that you've put into it.

And it's been, you know, it was really wonderful on Saturday to see the premiere.

And, you know, mountain parks are so far away and so unattainable to so many people in our metro area.

And it was really lovely and beautiful for you to highlight the Rocky Mountain Arsenal National Wildlife Refuge

and the close connection that that provides not only to the American Indian community,

but to the community that I live in, Montbello, and Commerce City,

and that long history around environmental justice and the restoration of buffalo habitat out there.

And so I wanted to understand, so, you know, it was one of the recommendations in the report

and wanted to kind of understand where the recommendation is around a tribal liaison

within the city and county of Denver because I work a lot with Stacey Coleman

with the Department of Natural Resources on the state side,

But there isn't someone equitable on that side, and especially with the embassy and with more work that folks like the healing bus and, you know, wanting to have, at least I've heard and folks have shared, more acknowledgement of the real history, especially in downtown Denver and along the South Platte.

Platt and that also might mean you know the spot that Silas Sol was assassinated on in

downtown Denver etc.

Similar to Boston and the Underground Railroad education that they have and so just wanted

to understand about any liaison or conversations for the 2027 budget maybe.

Yeah, we didn't talk specifically about a liaison, but we spoke a lot about wanting government-to-government relationships.

And so I think a tribal liaison really fits into that.

They really want to maintain a relationship.

And we heard a lot about you can't have a successful relationship if you come and go, depending on what project you're working on.

It has to be an ongoing.

And we heard a lot that they want to be kept in the loop, that they want to have, you know,

somebody that they can regularly engage with and reach out to and have regular meetings.

And so I think that is certainly a way.

And I spoke at the event on Saturday.

I spoke to Boulder, now has a tribal liaison who just started.

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you.

I definitely appreciate you thinking along those lines.

And especially as it's the 250th anniversary of our country and the 150th anniversary of the state,

it does seem like it's a perfect time for the mayor and the administration to put the money towards having a tribal liaison or at least talking with the community about that.

And then I recall that in the budget process last year, it seemed like, you know, you all put on an amazing convening.

It was awesome.

But then given the budget restrictions, it got cut in about half.

It was $100,000 for the first and second year with you all.

And then last year with CPD, it was about $45,000, I think.

Have there been conversations about how perhaps to backfill that $50,000 that we don't know where that might come from?

I don't know. The first year we did the convening, it was a somewhat smaller budget. The second year that it was the nearly $100,000, half of that was paid for with a state historical fund grant and half of funding from CASER.

And then, yeah, then CASER put it on last year and unfortunately had a lot of budget cuts and wasn't able to have as much. So, yeah, I'm not sure where funding discussions are now.

Okay. Okay. Yeah, totally. I appreciate you kind of letting council know because that would be another, I think, request that we understand that there will be hopefully close to 100,000 for the convening this year, especially as, you know, I'm already doing some planning within my council district with an advisory group that is pretty much that whole list of folks that you had up there.

So I'm really grateful that there's that crossover that way.

But the commitment there is so important.

And so I know with CASER, they were not able to have as many of the tribal representatives come because they just couldn't pay.

They didn't have the budget to be able to pay for the travel and hotel, which is a key part of doing the tribal engagement is to be able to pay for their tribal representatives to get here.

Yeah, it's kind of backwards if you're like, we want to welcome you home to your land that we stole, but you're going to have to pay for your food and lodging and transportation.

It doesn't, yeah, it's a hard way to build a relationship like that.

So, well, very amazing work and just appreciate all the work and time on it.

Thank you.

Thank you.

So, I just have a couple questions.

With the Latino Historic Context Study, we presented it at the time I was pro-time and Councilwoman Torso as president.

We sat down with the mayor and asked that it be presented to the Latino Commission and them be kind of the ambassadors of the work plan because there is a work plan.

So for like the Latino historic context study, I designated La Raza Park as a historic place because that was in that context study.

Just wondering, have you had the chance to do that same type of engagement with the Indian, the Native American mission for the mayor's office?

Somehow we can have some type of ambassadors to follow through on implementation of a plan because I'd hate for these plans just to sit on the shelf.

We would love to meet with them once they're reconvened.

They're currently disbanded and reforming.

And so we've worked with them throughout the project.

Unfortunately, we couldn't include them in this final event because there's not currently a commission,

but that's certainly as soon as a new commission is in place.

We would love to talk to them.

Okay.

And I would love a copy if you have a paper copy.

I'd love a copy right now.

All right.

Well, thank you so much for all this work.

I know how much time and effort it goes into this, so really appreciate you presenting this and having this in our pockets.

I know I'm very interested in doing work along the confluence.

At the confluence, on one side of my council district, on the other side, Councilmember Hines.

And that's why we have the Platte River Committee, is to have work exactly like this done,

so we can keep monitoring all of these projects

that are in such an important thoroughfare

in our history of Denver and for everyone here.

All right, well, thank you all.

Next up, we have Council Member Lewis.

Thanks.

Ma'am, does anyone else want one today?

Welcome.

All right, Councilmember Lewis, the floor is yours.

Thank you.

So I will be presenting alongside with Jesse.

If you can introduce yourself.

Hi, everyone.

Jesse Carey, policy aide to Councilwoman Lewis.

Great.

And so we are going to just jump in, if we might.

So today we are going to discuss a policy proposal that our office has been working on for quite some time

that involved licensing and consumer protection.

We've been calling this policy predatory home investing,

but for the formal name for this policy in the bill title, it's residential property wholesaling.

And I wanted to level sit up a bit before we jump in.

We have a bill draft based on what has been done elsewhere in the country,

but there's still a lot of work for us to do before this is ready for committee here.

I wanted to bring it forward today to discuss the idea and how we intend to address the issue,

as well as gauge any interest that any of you might have in co-sponsoring this legislation with me.

We know that this is an issue all across the city, and I would welcome any collaboration in addition to your comments and your questions.

I can hear myself. It's strange.

All right, let's start with some background on residential property wholesaling and why this is such a problem.

And I also wanted to take a moment to shout out one of my constituents because that's who brought this to our attention,

and she did some initial researching and things of that nature.

and so I'm very excited to bring this forward that comes directly from a constituent.

So residential property wholesaling is simply put the practice of investors to buy houses with cash

offers and then flip them for profit. There are two means by which this is typically done. So I

just want to say this is not folks who are investors who do flips and flips or things and

flips. Thanks. The first sometimes called double closing, double escrow, or back-to-back closing

entails two separate transactions over the course of days or weeks. The initial purchase of the

property and the follow-up sale of that same property. A second type of wholesaling property,

sometimes called an assignment of contract, occurs when investors acquire an option or an interest in

a contract to purchase a real property and then sell or offer to sell the option or assign or

offer to assign the contract. In this scenario, the wholesaler does not take ownership of the

property. They sell their interest in the contract for a price higher than the price they secured

from the original seller, thereby allowing them to act as a buyer and a seller where the legal

transfer of the real property only occurs once. Importantly, these types of transactions where

the investor is acting as the principal in these transactions do not require the investor to

obtain a real estate license and are not regulated by the state, which is one of the only regulatory

gaps in the state licensing scheme. So these types of transactions are a problem because

they lead to lower offers on residential properties. A 2023 report by Drexel University

Newark Metro Finance Lab. We buy houses, you lose out. Analyze home sales in Philadelphia

to understand the impact of sales to an investor compared to an individual. These investors

included wholesalers who quickly resell the property or investors who hold on to the property

and rent it out. The authors estimate that homes sold to investors sell at a price that is

an average of $126,000 lower than those sold to individuals, even when controlling the property

characteristics. There are really two main issues with these lower prices, one as an equity issue

and another as a consumer rights issue. As an equity issue, a different report by the Metro

Finance Lab found that the investors were most active in distressed neighborhoods defined as

areas with low mortgage lending, low incomes, and disproportionately large non-white populations.

Investing is also done in anticipation of major public investments or projects.

For example, we know that investors were heavily active in buying up houses during the I-70 expansion here in Denver

just a few years ago from folks in the GES and Northeast Denver neighborhoods.

These homes represented many folks only past towards building generational wealth.

As a consumer rights issue, wholesaling can involve high-pressure sales tactics

against unsuspecting, unsophisticated, and vulnerable populations.

A particular grievous example from Colorado occurred in 2018

when a Colorado homeowner was pressured into selling her home,

which had not previously been for sale, for $200,000.

The contract was assigned to a second investor for $300,000,

sold to a third investor two weeks later for $360,000,

and sold again eight months later for $520,000.

So, I mentioned before some anecdotal examples of investing in Denver and in Colorado, but

wanted to draw your attention to some more concrete examples of the activity happening

here in Denver.

This data comes from publicly available records and represents transactions made by a wholesaling

LLCs that are, as far as we can tell, does not have a Colorado real estate license.

The data represents transactions from 2003 and 2004.

This is only a fraction of what we have collected and I'm happy to send along the full data

set to anyone who might be interested in that.

But you can see here that the homes are being bought and flipped immediately for profit

with no work done on the house.

So the background, let's turn towards what I am proposing in terms of regulating this

kind of activity.

We started looking at various municipalities across the country to see who has been, what

has been done elsewhere to regulate this type of behavior. So in Philadelphia, there was a bill

that could be a licensing scheme and a no solicitation list. Wholesalers are required to obtain a license

and renew it annually. It requires a criminal record search for convictions of fraud, dishonesty,

breach of trust, or deceit, among others. Homeowners are able to place their property on a no solicitation

list for people looking to make unsolicited offers, and wholesalers who ignore the list

can be fined up to $2,000. In Atlanta, there is a general prohibition on high-pressure sales

tactics or harassment, including the predatory tactics of repeated and unsolicited attempts

within any 180-day period to contract a person or entity, including via personal visits or written

material or similar means under circumstances where the person or entity has affirmatively

requested the defendant or the defendant's agent to refrain from such activity. This ordinance

also prohibits harassing, molesting, threatening, co-erecting, or intimidating a person or their

family or threatening bodily harm in furtherance of a commercial transaction. And then finally,

in Baltimore, Baltimore's ordinance prohibits unfair, abusive, and deceptive practices and

requires a three-day cooling off period between when an offer is made and when it can be accepted.

And then after looking at all three of these ordinances, I asked the CAO to draft a bill that

combines elements of all three. The bill creates a licensing scheme and no solicitation list and

prohibits and regulates wholesalers' conducts. And with that, I'll turn it over to Jesse.

So before jumping into each of those elements in turn, it all starts with the definition

of residential wholesaler, defined here in the bill as any person or entity who is in

the business of purchasing or soliciting for purchase a residential property not for use

as a residence for the residential property wholesaler and with the intent to sign the

contract for sale or resell the property for a profit.

The bill specifically exempts realtors or brokers who are regulated by the state.

Um, one way to think about the, the way that this bill is intended to work is maybe force,

um, investors who don't have a state license into the state licensing scheme, then we don't

have to worry about them. But for those who choose not to, um, they would go through the

city process. Uh, and then the bill also exempts investors who make substantial improvements to

the residents before they sell the property. Um, so that's the, the fix and flips that,

um, that's woman Lewis was, was speaking to earlier.

Uh, moving on to the first element, um, is the, is the licensing scheme. Uh, this would create a

registry of residential wholesalers, um, as defined above. Um, it would be overseen by licensing and

consumer protection who would be authorized to make rules and requirements for the license.

Um, one example of what this could include, uh, is mandating the use of forms by wholesalers that

would inform the homeowner of resources, assessing the fair value of the property and of the seller's

ability to hire a real estate agent or seek legal counsel. This is actually directly modeled off of

what Philadelphia has done. They just have to provide a form when they're making the offer.

And then the licensing portion of this bill would also require licensing and consumer protection to

prepare an annual report on the number of residential wholesalers and the number of

transactions every year and to deliver that report to counsel. Moving on to the second element here,

this would create a list of no solicitation, also maintained by licensing and consumer protection.

This would allow homeowners to list themselves or their property as not to be solicited with

offers to sell their homes. Fines or civil penalties can be incurred by those who solicit

those on the list. And then note that a homeowner who works with a realtor to sell their house would

not need to be taken off this list as it was not solicited by the realtor. It was just the person

working with the realtor to sell their house. Finally, turning towards what's prohibited and

regulated conduct within the bill, residential wholesalers would be prohibited from operating

without a license, knowingly making any substantial misrepresentations, false promises, or engaging

in any conduct which demonstrates bad faith or dishonesty, contacting or soliciting a residential

property or residential property owner on the no solicitation list, and then repeatedly or

continuously contacting a residential property owner with the purpose of harassing, molesting,

threatening, coercing, or intimidating the residential property owner into selling.

In addition, residential wholesalers regulated under this bill would have to disclose to a

residential property owner at least three days before presenting an offer to purchase the property.

The wholesalers intend to sign the contract for purchase or resell the property for a profit.

LC licensing and consumer protection would be empowered under the bill to make their investigations and issue subpoenas as necessary.

So, so far, as Councilwoman Lewis said at the beginning of the conversation, we have a bill draft, but we recognize that there's a lot of conversations to be had before this is ready for committee.

Just getting the getting the implementation, getting the details right.

Councilwoman Lewis has had conversations with the folks that license consumer protection.

They are here today if you have questions for them after the presentation.

One important aspect that came from meeting with them was the sense that the registry,

as run through licensing and consumer protection, would have to be created by technology services.

That will take time and money to do, like it was with the rental registry or other registries that they have stood up.

That said, a phased approach may be something that can be done to allow for regulation in

the shorter term on certain elements of this while the registry is being set up.

And licensing and consumer protection were extremely helpful in the meeting we had with

them, recommending what other agencies we should be communicating with.

As such, we intend to take this proposal to the mayor's office, technology services, human

human rights and community partnerships and the district attorney's office to make sure

that they are able to roll this program out with maximum buy-in from other city agencies,

as well as leveraging efforts that may be underway elsewhere in the city. For example,

that could be an education campaign by human rights and community partnerships on avoiding

scams as a senior in community. Additionally, Councilman Lewis intends to speak to folks in

the municipalities discussed before to get a better sense of what the demand of creating

these regulations has been for the folks in those cities who oversee those programs as

well as getting a sense of what seems to be working versus what seems to not be working

as many of these programs are now two to three years old.

And then finally, Councilman Lewis does plan to engage with the industry in Denver, both

those that would be regulated by this bill as well as others such as the Realtors Association,

which would not be regulated by this bill to understand how this may impact them or other

best practices.

And with that, I think it's time for questions.

Yeah.

And I, thank you.

And I'll just say that one of the things that has come up is in Park Hill, this originated

in Montbello, but one of the things that have come up is specifically in Park Hill with

the purchase of open space that a lot of the residents in the surrounding area are receiving

these, thank you so much, are receiving requests to sell their homes.

And so we wanted to be able to get ahead of folks being displaced in Park Hill in particular.

Perfect.

Thank you.

Great presentation.

In the queue, we have Council Member Hines, Councilman Torres, Councilman Campbell, and

Councilman Parity, and myself.

Council Member Hines, go ahead.

Thank you, Madam President.

Thank you for the presentation, and holy cow.

This, just based on what I've heard, it sounds terrible.

It sounds like someone is, or a bunch of someones, are maximizing knowledge disparity for profit,

and council has time and time again addressed knowledge disparity,

and it seems like this is another opportunity, like with the rental registry,

and requiring that any eviction notice be, if it's placarded,

it also has to have tenant rights with the eviction.

So thank you for finding this, and thanks for bringing it forward.

Sure, thank you.

What sort of success has this, have you, similar ordinances seen in other cities?

Yeah.

I mean, I think that that's really where the piece about speaking with folks in other municipalities in terms of, again, what seems to be working well, what seems to not be.

A lot of that is internal to those municipalities.

We just haven't had time to have those conversations yet.

But I will say that it does appear that the registry for wholesalers in Philadelphia,

it does seem to be very active in terms of people signing up for it,

registering as the wholesalers and complying with the rules.

So at least in the sense of making it visible to people,

I think that that part has been successful in Philadelphia.

Yeah, I wonder, you know, as you talk with other municipalities,

what works, like what, noticing three days,

at least three days before a sale that this is a, you know,

wholesale vendor that intends to flip your place for profit,

you know, like how that language is produced at least three days

in advance could continue the knowledge disparity or, you know,

or it could equalize it.

So as you're visiting with other municipalities,

I'd be curious about the language that's used to help educate folks to make sure that they aren't just straight up getting advantage of.

Yeah, we're happy to get that when we have those conversations.

And hopefully when we have the conversations with other municipalities that we can give you the exact language they are using as an example for you to be able to take a peek at.

That's great.

So excise and licenses is not excise and licenses anymore.

in their title. They have consumer protection, and so I really see this as a consumer protection

item. What additional, what other things will not EXL, I've got to learn your name.

It's been two, three months now. So anyway, what additional requirements will they have?

will they be creating a license or will it be modeled similarly or do you know in other cities

Atlanta's basically the same in population I don't know exactly what the population of Atlanta is but

like how many people have signed up as wholesalers in Atlanta just to get a sense of the scale of

this licensure program. Yeah, we can find that for you. To the first part of your question,

I'd actually have them respond to that. Hello, Molly Duplichay, Licensing and Consumer Protection.

Yeah, good question. Yes, this would be a new license for us. So we would have to go through

that process of setting up a new record in our licensing software, which is Acela.

And so we'd have to work with technology services.

And I think there's some other kind of legwork that we would have to do as well.

We would want to also connect with those other cities and hear from them, you know, what they went through to create their system, their registration list, their no solicitation list.

So in addition to just creating the licensing record, I think we'd want to establish some enforcement process, what an investigation or an inspection would look like, some complaint reporting and how we would follow up on those.

Education, I think, would be a big piece of this, making sure the consumers, the public, know what a predatory behavior looks like and where and when to file that complaint, how to get on the no solicitation list.

So, yeah, I think there's lots of details that we would need to work through in coordination with technology services and some of our other agency partners as well.

And just the last, as a comment, I'd be curious to get a sense of what sort of licensing fees are associated in other cities.

And, you know, it'll take us, there'll be an expense of programming.

There'll also be the expense of setting up.

But then there'll be the compliance expense, too.

And so good news that, you know, if it's a tax, Tabor tells us to send it to the people.

But if it's repaying for things that we already have to do in the execution of this law, then that would be a fee.

And so we want to make sure that that fee is set up properly.

Yeah.

We haven't discussed that level of detail, but in Philadelphia, it was up to $2,000.

But obviously, we'll have to continue to work closely with LPC before.

we get to that granular answer.

Yeah, and I would just add, there is the cost of the one-time technology costs, and then

yes, I would definitely want to explore, and that would be helpful to talk to those other

cities to learn, like, what does their staffing look like?

But there definitely would be some staffing needs on the enforcement and administrative

side.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Next up, we have Council Member Torres followed by Council Member Campbell.

Thank you, Madam President.

Thank you for this. I want to make sure that I'm understanding the niche of what this addresses.

Because there was an exception on this slide.

It does not apply to those substantially improving the residence before selling the property.

So this is just basically the broker who's trying to get the sale to come through

before then selling it to somebody who may remodel or demo or develop the property?

Correct. And that's not always happening. It's the remodel. It's literally me selling you

a house and then you selling it again without making any improvements to DRC,

but you sell it for significantly more. Okay. And these are homes because I get these texts

all the time. We'd love to talk to you about selling your property. I'm like,

I never sent anything, right? I never posted it. So they were like, oh, I know. I asked for a

million dollars and they don't want to give it to me. But it's that person, right? Who's doing

the cold call to somebody who's not put their home up for sale anywhere, who's not talked to a real

estate broker or anything like that. These are the cold call folks. And I don't want to assume

that all of the cold call folks don't have a license, but these are the folks who don't

have a license and they are selling these homes.

How would I know that as a resident or like how do you kind of wrap your arms around this

world that feels very like under the radar?

Good question.

So I think that there's, I mean, I think that there's ways maybe within legislation to make

that more clear just in terms of what you have to include when you're sort of cold calling.

people about like, well, I'm not licensed by the state, but I'm allowed to do this because

of the like specific regulatory gap that exists.

But the other piece of it is that's sort of what the cooling off period goes to is you're

providing a form to someone that says, I intend to flip this.

I am not licensed by the state.

You have the right to consult with a licensed real estate, like broker or realtor or seek

legal advice elsewhere.

So part of that is getting that form design right and then the cooling off period allows

people to say, okay, well you made me this offer but looking at this again it seems like

I have some second and third opinions that I can get before I agree to anything.

I think you're on to something that I think deeply affects district three and the predatory

practices we have seen over the last 20 years to be honest.

I was looking at foreclosure rates and curious whether or not somebody who's like a hawk of the foreclosure process is a wholesaler.

Because that's where we lost most of our homeownership was in 2007 and 2008 when we lost so much housing to adjustable rate mortgages getting foreclosed on.

Like one of my zip codes was fourth in the country for foreclosure.

that year. And they were obtained by who ended up being businesses or LLCs or investment groups.

So just not sure if there's a foreclosure kind of process that also attracts a wholesaler.

I was gonna say we hadn't discussed it, but it's a really good point. It's a really good flag as

as well. Go ahead. Yeah, I was going to say, yeah, we can try to get back to you on sort

of how the foreclosure process plugs into this and figure out if it's something that

we can get here or if it's something that, you know, it's preempted by the state.

My discussion with folks who provide foreclosure counseling is that they're expecting a lot

more cases to start coming through.

One of the asks, and I'm super interested in this moving forward

and figuring out what it means, is when you talk to the other cities,

if they've identified how folks find loopholes around whatever they developed.

So what are they learning as they kind of try to target this group?

So thank you so much.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Thanks.

Thank you.

Next up we have Council Pro Temer Mayor Campbell.

Thank you, Madam President, and thank you for the presentation.

Super interesting, and I see it seemed from the list that you had,

it kind of tracks with the zip code and what we are seeing and hearing.

Two questions.

One, I would be interested from other municipalities,

are there, is it just the houses that may be in foreclosure or price of home?

I'm thinking of like older adults and seniors and how highly vulnerable they would be in this situation.

Is there more information?

Is it mostly targeted towards seniors or?

I mean, it came from the predatory practices specifically that were targeted towards seniors.

But it's not necessarily intended to just protect seniors, but to protect folks in our city from predatory practices.

But that was what I was mentioning earlier when I said Park Hill, because Park Hill has older residents who have been there for quite some time and who are receiving those text messages that Councilwoman Torres just mentioned.

And so wanting to be able to protect them from losing their long-term investments.

in their homes. I would also just add that the list of properties that is included in the slides

is anonymized here, but in our actual data set, we have a little bit more information than we can

see. And one of the things that you do see is that it is a lot of times it's folks who are

maybe the executor of an estate who are selling the house to a home investor. They're just trying

to get it off the, like basically out of probate as quickly as possible. And then you are seeing,

you are seeing in a couple of instances basically the children of the parents initiating court

action on behalf of the parents after this thing has been sold because, you know, it

just happens like very quickly. The offer is made. The parent basically agrees to the

The contract is assigned and then the kids are left to try to navigate the court system

in order to see what can be done to repair this.

Thank you for that.

Is there another symptom of this or is it a cause that it just goes so quickly?

Is that also being accounted for?

Is that how you know that someone is not licensed because they're just trying to make it go through?

Would there be an instance that we would, that these kind of transactions would go through quickly?

Or is that the flag that, oh, my gosh, these things are going through within days that you mentioned?

And is that accounted for in the ordinance?

Or would that be one of the flags to alert that something was going on that was more nefarious?

I think that very lawyerly answer, but it kind of depends. It can be just the quickness of the

sale. The tricky part here is that there are folks who have state real estate licenses who also do

home investing as well. And so you would have to look not just to the time that these houses spend

on market, but then also dig into the LLCs a little bit because a lot of these are done under

LLCs. And so you actually, like you have to dig into the LLC to figure out whether or not there's

a real estate license attached to somebody whose, you know, name is on the LLC. So it's not,

I would say that the zero day turnaround is indicative of it, but not necessarily going to be

100% of the time these guys are the predatory home investors here that we're talking about.

Thank you. Thank you for bringing this forward. I'll follow up with some more thoughts.

Thanks. Thank you, Madam President.

Thank you. Next up, we have Council Member Perry followed by Council Member Flynn.

Awesome. I'm obsessed with this bill and so grateful that you're bringing it up for us.

I am thinking back to during the foreclosure crisis,

my caseload of Colorado Legal Services was homeowners

because I was mostly doing foreclosure prevention.

But we also did any kind of other predatory, you know,

practice with relation to homeownership.

So that was like my beat.

And it was real bad.

So I think, first of all, I would make the recommendation

that you all reach out affirmatively to stakeholder

with the consumer unit at CLS because they're not allowed to ask.

even if they get wind of this.

That's the Gingrich restrictions on legal aid funding.

So they have to, the consumer unit

at Colorado Legal Services, so Jose Vasquez,

they will have umpteenth examples of this

and be thrilled to review it and just have an eye

for any kind of extra nuances that they might want to put

in things other cities may have missed.

And then to everyone's questions about the interaction

with foreclosure, I think the, I mean essentially,

These are going to be properties that by their nature are not in foreclosure because this

is not the lender that's trying to pursue it and resell it, right?

But certainly the person might be afraid that they could be winding up in foreclosure.

That could be a source of some of the pressure to sell.

But mostly by its nature, the foreclosure is being done by a lender and a lender would

not qualify as a residential wholesaler.

So they're kind of two different vulnerabilities of a similar and overlapping population but

probably kind of separate.

What I do wonder though is if someone violates, like operates without a license or violates

their license, if part of the penalty could be that they're not allowed to bid at foreclosure

actions, like sort of get them out of the city as a property owner.

That's interesting.

So there's probably a lot of interesting interactions there.

And I would just say like any brain in the city, I would say Jose and I would say Brothers

Redevelopment.

Like those are the people that, and all of the other HUD approved housing counselors

who get people coming to them with these kinds of situations.

I would have been registering clients for that list like crazy.

I would have signed up 75% of the people that I represented during that time if this list

existed then.

And so I think there's very little question about the need.

I also know some really excellent elder abuse probate attorneys who specialize in those

kind of situations where someone has been financially taken advantage of who would probably

also love to talk to you about it.

So, for all means, let's talk more, but this is so fabulous.

And depending, you know, the housing market, people get preyed on in different ways, depending

which way the market goes.

So, when the market was really hot, they got given a bunch of ARMs, and they will get these

kinds of predatory calls, like, hey, give me your house.

I'm going to flip it around and sell it for more than you are aware that it's worth.

And then when the market goes down, you get foreclosed on because you're in default on

your fancy exotic mortgage at that point.

So it's just the same people get victimized in homeownership when the market goes up and when it goes down.

And this is like one of those polls to complement the other.

So thank you so much.

I appreciate it.

Thanks, Madam President.

Next up, we have Council Member Flint, followed by Council Member de los Gutierrez.

Excuse me.

Thank you, Madam President.

A couple of questions on slide eight that it does not apply to realtors or brokers who

are licensed by the Colorado Real Estate Commission.

Do those individuals engage in this sort of activity or is that precluded by the rules

of the Real Estate Commission?

I want to make sure that we're not talking about creating an exempt group that can still

do the mass, you know, the reselling, but they have a license, so they're not covered

here.

Yeah.

The answer is that we have seen in the data that we've pulled together that there are

LLCs operating where somebody does have a Colorado state license, so they can do it.

The reason why we think that this bill should be run, despite the fact that some of the

people are regulated by the state is because the state has requirements for good faith

dealing.

You're subject to discipline under the state licensing scheme already.

But the problem is there's a separate group who don't have their state licenses and they're

not required to follow any of that even though they're engaging in the same activity.

So the idea is to capture the folks who are not regulated by the state who are engaging

this, trusting that the state process will take care of the folks who are licensed by

the state who engage in retail wholesaling.

I don't know if that answers the...

I don't know either.

It might be that, at least I know I would benefit from some research on what would happen.

We pass this and the folks who are not licensed brokers or realtors, they go ahead and get

this license from Molly's office.

But they still nevertheless go to vulnerable neighborhoods and say,

sell me your home for 250 grand, I'll get it to you right away, cash offer.

And they have somebody down the line who's already going to pay them 350 or 400.

But they're licensed by the state.

I'd like to know is that something that would result in any disciplinary action?

I don't know.

Okay.

to see research basically on what the state disciplinary process would look like or that

process for those folks who are licensed by the state.

Exactly.

Because when I read this over the week, I'm sorry?

Just the state?

Because it sounds like you were asking both what would happen if they are licensed by

the state, but then what would happen if we implemented this and they were licensed by?

No, the former.

Okay.

Just, okay.

Because when I read this over the week and my thought was, oh, we're closing a gap that

the state already covers this when they license the realtors and the brokers.

And we're taking care of those who are not covered.

So I just want to make sure that I'm correct.

That's true.

That the others are covered.

Sure, that's a fair question.

Thank you.

I'm confused by the slide for the map, areas vulnerable to gentrification.

And I'm wondering, maybe that's just a placeholder map that you put in here to take up the right

half of the slide because it says it's based on data from 1990, 2000, and 2013, and that's

like 13 years ago at the latest. And some of the neighborhoods that are ineligible to gentrify

I think may be ground zero for some gentrification. And some in my district that I'm most concerned

about, like College View, which I think, which I have always regarded as my most at-risk

neighborhood is under other does not fit the typology so I'm wondering if there's an updated

version of this map and then second part of that question is your licensing wouldn't apply

tell me it would not apply only to solicitations in those neighborhoods but it would apply citywide

anyway so if I were doing this in Belcaro it would be the same thing

I'm going to Bell Couch.

I'll give you a million and a half.

I got somebody down the loan to give me two million.

That could happen.

With regard to the gentrification map, Councilman Flynn, that is, you are right.

It was meant to, as a placeholder, to take up half the slide.

We are currently short a marketing and communications aid in District 8.

And so it has fallen to me, I will say, not my forte.

But I do believe that there should be an updated gentrification map, and I'm happy to follow up with you.

These are the census tracts, and it's probably easy to get ACS data.

Thank you.

No, thank you.

Thank you, Madam President.

Thank you.

Next, we have Councilwoman Gonzalez-Guterres.

Thank you, Madam President.

I'll just let you know, so we always talk about who's watching.

My parents watch all the time.

my dad who is a actual realtor and worked for the city for 27 years is watching and he thinks that

this is a great idea. Okay. You know, listen to my constituents. But really, I do really appreciate

the thought behind this and I appreciate the fact that you're bringing it and saying, okay,

what are some questions that everybody has so that you can continue to formulate this?

Because one thought I have is, you know, one thing is them calling, right, unsolicited

calling people or texting people.

What's funny is I get texts from my parents to me calling me by my parents' names and

my numbers.

And it's kind of a weird thing.

I don't know how our numbers got mixed up, but it happens.

And they asked me if I would want to sell my house.

But they're referring to me as my father's name.

That's one issue.

But the other part is the signs, right?

So I remember in the north side, back in the early 2000s, seeing these signs all over,

which then, of course, like they're not calling the person, but they're putting these signs

up saying, hey, we'll buy your house for cash.

And I wonder if there's been any conversation about making those, like prohibiting those

kinds of signs from being up in our city.

And I don't know if there is any, there might already be some like when it comes to public

right away, but I think just in it of itself, the fact that it is predatory in nature, that perhaps,

and I don't know if this is possible, but maybe I'm asking if you could look into it,

what this policy is banning having those kinds of signs up, because I think it's initiating that,

right? When somebody sees that and they feel like they're in a really difficult place, or they feel

like, oh, I could sell my house and I can make all this money, but then they're being displaced at

the same time and they're not able to perhaps afford another house because it is expensive,

that they're just putting themselves in a much bigger predicament financially and housing-wise

that we just don't allow those signs up. And if there's a number, I mean, we obviously can then

call that number and be like, you're getting fined for having these signs up. I don't know.

I figure like budget and policy, we can throw ideas out there.

I mean, that's the point of this.

But that was just an idea I had because I think people see those and they think, oh,

like I can, you know, I can get a bunch of money for my house if I do this.

But thank you for bringing this forward.

I'm interested to see how it develops and really appreciate the thought behind it.

Thank you.

Thank you, Madam President.

Hello.

Council Member, it actually is illegal to place signs in the right of way, like specifically

the tree line. It happens all the time. If you were to take it up and leave with it, that's theft.

So, you know. I'm talking about the fact that the signs, what they say on them.

Yeah, yeah. I know that it's the public right away piece. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm aware of that. Thank you.

But then there's no easy way to remove the signs. So I wonder if part of the conversation could be

the removal of the signs because our city workers can only do so much.

But if you remove it as a private person, it's theft.

Yeah.

So anyway, thank you.

Unless it's on your house.

That's right.

Yeah.

Well, yeah.

We have them on the Masonic Temple and I ask them to remove them.

The ones in Northwest Denver, it's the poles that are the problem that the city workers won't address.

My question is, I thought under our Department of Regulatory Affairs,

I thought it was illegal to sell houses, do a transaction without a real estate license.

I thought you can't do that.

I thought you had to be licensed.

I thought you had to be able to have a contract.

So when you do real estate, right, you have to do a contract and not to go into law,

but it's legal tender. And so to sell and move legal tender regarding any real estate,

I thought you had to have a real estate license. Yeah. So you do for most of it, but these

exemptions relate to being the principal on the contract. The idea, I think, originally being

that if you want to undertake the selling of your own home that you live in without

going through a realtor, you should be allowed to do that. So that's where it comes from.

And then the assignment of the contractual rights as opposed to the actual transaction

of the sale is also just at the time I think a lot of these regulations were written or

laws were written.

They didn't foresee that people would just play around with the term assignment of contract.

Like to me, it would be the same if I'm assigning my contract to sell you my house as selling

my house, but for whatever reason, it's not treated the same under law.

For sale by owner.

For sale by owner, you can sign that contract to somebody else?

Yeah, acting as the principal on the contract or arranging basically for one party to direct

it like directly to another person.

And I know that, I mean, counsel-

I was like, we have a realtor right here.

I actually suspended my license this year, but you do not need to be a realtor or have

a license to buy and sell property.

And a lot of these wholesalers don't have a license because of what Councilman Flynn

said.

They know what they're doing is unethical.

So I know wholesalers who are like, I'm not going to get a license because I don't want

to be held accountable for what I'm doing.

All you need is the title company.

But you do have to go through a title company.

You do have to go through a title company, but that is very different from going through

a realtor.

Or you can also just hire a real estate attorney.

Okay.

And have you met with title companies to figure out how much this is happening?

Because I'll just say, so in my office, we send welcome letters and it was to say, hey,

welcome to Northwest Denver.

But it's also a tool to collect data, who's buying and selling.

so you'll see that a lot of LLCs have bought in Northwest Denver.

So just wondering, like, have you gone to any title companies to figure out, like, hey,

who, where are these happening?

Because if Councilman Alvidrez is correct that you have to go through a title company,

which I thought that was going to be my next question, they should be at the table helping

draft this because then they would know who the heavy hitters are and what's happening.

Yeah, we're happy to do that.

Okay.

And then to the second part of it is we actually adopted that same thing which came from you in our district where we pull that information and send those welcome letters so that we can see if it's LLCs or actually people who are purchasing properties.

Yeah, a helpful tool.

Yep.

Awesome.

Awesome. So the other question I had on the slide, let me go back to the slide, is so

the next, the upcoming on slide 12, the entities, the Mayor's Office, Technology Services, Human

Rights Community Partnerships, District Attorney's Office. Councilman Alvarez, isn't there a

real estate association for real estate agents?

Yes.

Well, there's a realtor organization and there's, there are several of those.

Yes.

I would.

Being a real estate agent, you don't have to be a realtor.

There's different standards for both.

So I would just say that working with a lot of those entities and making sure that this

is, cause this is something that I've thought about for a while.

Cause I always, I'm like councilwoman Taurus.

I'm like $5 million cash.

Yeah.

And I said, sold as is, no inspection.

So that's my text back to anyone who ever texts me.

I've gotten one person who's actually followed through and called me and was like, $5 million cash.

And I said, yeah, sold as is in 25 days.

I mean, like, what are they going to do, right?

Give me $5 million cash.

So, and as is, because I don't want an inspection.

So I think that those are the things, like, getting into the nuances of this,

that's where the rubber will hit the road,

making sure that we're actually helping the people

who are being harmed by this

and also being able for me to say,

I always say that this is illegal

because I know you should have a real estate license, right?

We held some type of ethical standard,

but this would actually make it illegal.

So I really like that aspect

because I threaten that it's illegal,

but it's not really 100%.

Yeah, and we should have been more specific in our upcoming discussions.

We just put industry engagement to follow, but that was one of the folks, one of the audiences that we had identified to follow up with.

So my bad for the lack of specificity, but we got you.

Great.

And then one last question.

Did, is there, did Central do a paper, like a, or a research paper on this bill?

Can I get, can I get a copy of it?

Because that always helps me understand what they, where they looked at.

Yeah, I, yes, and I was like, isn't there like a website that we, something that we should be doing?

Yeah, it's like, I just, I just remembered it, that we had had some discussion that we'd have all of the things that each of us are working on in one, like, SharePoint or something.

But yeah, I'll get it to you.

I don't think I've ever seen it.

I just, you just reminded me of it.

I think that that's an idea.

I don't think it's actually come to fruition.

People don't actually want their bills shared.

Oh, got it.

depending on how the outreach happens

and how they wanna pull the truth.

So it's not being mulled over on how to do that.

Understood, yeah, we'll send it to you.

We'll send it to everyone.

Awesome, awesome.

Seeing no other council members in the queue,

thank you so much and we'll see you at 3.30

for our council meeting.

This meeting is good.

Thank you.

Thank you.