Standing committee will be called to order with the clerk please call the roll.

Good morning, Councilmember Gabrielle Santiago Romero.

Councilmember Scott Benson.

Got Benson I.

Councilmember Mary Waters.

Mr.

Vice Chair, there is no quorum.

All right, not having a quorum, we will go right into public comments.

And what we will do is open up public comments until 10.05.

Then we will close public comments.

We will give two minutes to each.

And if staff we can make sure that everybody who is here for public comment gets a card and we will call on them.

And then if we could please get a and we've now been joined by Member Waters.

Uh so we now have a quorum.

Mr.

Boyle, you have two minutes.

We'll give everybody two minutes a day.

As some of uh the viewers know, I'm a bus rider and I uh frequent on the uh Dexter line, which right now has a detour for the Joe Lewis Greenway construction.

What's happening right now is the riders are suffering from having inconsistent uh route around this detour.

There are no signs posted regarding the detour on Dexter.

And uh I would suggest that we get signs three stops before and three stops after because that is the width of the area that the drivers are deviating from the detour that was given to every driver in a memo.

I confirmed that with one of the drivers that yes, they did get a memo, and only some of them are actually going to Doris, which is the street before the detour.

Most of them are all coming out on Bork, Bork, Bjork, Burke, whatever you want to call it.

And it's uh we've got the entrance going southbound on Burke is working.

Exiting, sometimes they go to doors, sometimes they'll go to open, sometimes they'll go to uh evolved circles, sometimes they'll just I I don't even have a uh pattern for it.

Every driver's got their own way they're doing it.

I would suggest that we get a supervisory vehicle out there so that there's a actually a place marker and maybe a person there that they gotta actually see what's going on with these drivers.

Uh I did miss I I was an hour late for work one day because the I looked to my right and there was the bus down the street from me.

Um I do also want to put in a word here regarding the downzoning of Kronos uh facility in district three.

It needs to be reduced, and we also need to look at the uh stormwater requirements on that as well, because the dust is a problem.

Mr.

Boyle, thank you very much.

Do myself to member Gabriel Santiago Romero's staff.

If you could please we will line item the D dot issue, and Mr.

Boyle, what line number was that?

What bus line, but number?

Yeah, this is 16.

Uh the Dexter role.

16.

If we could line item um bus line, if we could line item for committee next week, the challenges around bus line number 16 and get feedback from the from D dot on that on those challenges.

Yes, Mr.

Chair.

I'll make it thank you very much.

The public would like to say thank you.

Yeah, sir.

Thank you.

All right.

Uh Mr.

Munsonski, you're next.

All right, good morning.

Good morning.

You have two minutes, sir.

And members of uh council.

My name is Renard Mosunski, and I'm a transit organizer with the Detroit People's Platform and leader of the transit justice team.

Usually I don't speak on matters of zoning or upzoning, but I wanted to speak about the matter that's on the table in front of the entire city council when it comes to this upzoning issue and housing.

Um there's this, you know, supposed benefit that you know once you have the infill um and start to fill in more areas with more density, that better transit will come.

Unfortunately, that disparity already exists, and the neighborhoods that have the most transit in need um are the areas where the density is as sparse.

So the zoning, the up the up zoning for the housing can have potentially creates more density and more um people in our city as well.

But in terms of transit, most of the people that's going to be moving into this housing, if this housing is not truly affordable, are people that have cars as well?

And that complicates the parking aspect of this um ordinance that's in front of you.

So it bears more consideration and more time in terms of positive impacts.

And other thing, too, that's missing in this proposal is a real true transit-oriented development process in this as well.

So you can up zone, you can upfill houses.

That's great.

There's more people, however, um this plan doesn't um suppose any more shelters and areas and uh where people have transit need.

And I'm worried about the people that live in the neighborhoods that aren't as dense but rely on D dot as well.

How do we make sure that they're not displaced?

So we just need more time and consideration.

And when we look at the transit aspect of it, it's a background benefit, not so much a foreground as well.

Too so we want to make this truly comprehensive and implement measures of transit-oriented development.

That really speaks to anti-displacement measures.

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

And public comment is now closed for everyone.

Do we make sure everybody who is here has had an opportunity to submit for public comment?

Anyone else for public comment here in person?

Mr.

Cunningham, you have two minutes.

That number was made so you can remember it.

And on Facebook, not into me.

Two words on Facebook, not in to me.

So I just want to thank those that prayed last week, prayed in the Holy Spirit, chant it, call my name and atmosphere.

It was a good week.

I know that the fervent effectual prayers of the righteous available much.

I pray for the city, pray for all our council members and myself and my family and the outreach that I do.

Um, there is a huge need for hand warmers.

I give out hand warmers, bus tickets, um, coats, gloves, hats at the bus stops.

Um I also um wanted to say thank you for Mr.

Jason and Mayor Waters office helping those people I touch uh that have uh housing needs is a good resource.

And I also uh wanted to uh draw your attention, Mr.

Chair.

Um I had sent you an uh a thought uh via text um a couple of days ago.

Um in regards to a thank you for having those bus shelters, those refurbished bus shelters in your district until the new bus shelters come.

Um it snowed yesterday.

I seen people sitting in those bus shelters.

I seen them, I seen them.

I would love to get them on video saying thank you uh for getting those refurbished bus shelters, but I see them standing in them, especially yesterday with the snow.

Um it was I was impressed, and I was uh uh very encouraged, and thank you for getting those refurbished bus shelters until the new search elders arrive.

Uh it's inclement weather.

My cash app again is 313 444 9114 and my high line number.

I need to get hats, gloves, hand warmers, whatever you can throw at me that I can hand handle and catch.

I'll come pick those things up.

Thank you so much.

And uh appreciate those shelters, sir.

Thank you, Mr.

Cunningham.

It's a perfect example of not letting the perfect become the enemy of the good.

Who do we have next?

And then how many do we have online?

Good morning, Mr.

Chair.

There are total of eight hands raised.

The first caller being owner Papa.

Owner Papa, you have two minutes.

Good.

Owner Papa, you have two minutes.

Mr.

Chair, we can go to the next caller and bring them back.

The next caller is stop zoning rush jobs.

Stop zoning rush jobs.

You have two minutes.

I'm gonna guess who this is.

Let me see if I'm correct.

Are they able to come on?

Yes, hello.

There we go.

I was right.

Can you hear me?

We can hear you.

You have two minutes.

Okay, great.

Thank you.

Um, yeah, thank you, Renard Manschenski.

Absolutely, I agree with him.

Now, if if if if you're all saying that these small developers can't develop because they can't afford attorneys and consultants, because the zoning code is 96 pages.

And we don't have attorneys or consultants to answer our questions.

Like I wrote Marcel Todd some questions from the city planning commission, and he hasn't answered.

He said he called me.

I said, What number?

And I checked.

He I didn't get any missed calls from him, but I sent him an email and he hasn't answered my question.

So, you know, duly noted that you pushed some of this off until after the elections, and very problematic.

So please stop all of this.

And you're also uh uh people have been violating at the city, Detroit City Code 6-205, which says that if people live in an area where there's a proposal that came out of some kind of planning study from the planning department or some agency, you're supposed to be given full opportunity to present your arguments, not limited to 30 seconds or two minutes or any of this.

So your process has not been legal anyway.

So you really need to put the brakes on it.

Also, member waters, you're on the internal operations committee.

I've heard from numerous people and witnessed it myself, that the election department was not giving out either updated writing candidate lists, or a neighbor of mine went on election day and asked for the list of writing candidates, and they were she was told they that they couldn't give it to her.

That absolutely cannot be legal.

And you line item that, folks, if you truly care.

And line item, Mr.

Benson, the fact that you're having some of these hearings about these massive zoning ordinances that you know that the vast majority of people don't even know are on the table, and you're violating charter section 6-205.

The community advisory councils didn't even know about some of this stuff.

So you really need to put the topic and you're thank you.

Who do we have next?

The next before we go to our next one.

If LPD could just briefly bring up section six DAC two, TAC 05 or the charter.

I'll be asking what that is uh once we complete uh public comment.

Who's our next in public comment?

The next caller is Betty A.

Varner.

Miss Varner, you have two minutes.

Uh good morning, to all within the sound of my voice.

This is Betty A.

Brown, the president of the Soda Ellsworth Black Association, uh advocating for my community, still um uh advocating for our think of corridor.

And uh we would like monies to be spent in our call on our corridor.

We have had some successful and positive uh communication with the city, good ideas.

Uh they've done cleanup projects and they uh told us what uh you know who owns what they can build this, this, that, and the other, and uh there is a good vibe.

But the problem is there is no monies.

We are uh would like monies to be spent on the think accorder, the same as being spent on Dexter, uh the Warren uh corridor, uh Avenue of Fashion, uh McNicholas and Livinois.

Uh in our area, we deserve for the same type of monies to come to our neighborhood, our corridor, and uh we uh a association, the residents here, we care about our community, and we want to be treated the same.

Also, our association, we uh working to expand our park.

And if you like to uh donate to our mission, please go to Zale.

If you know my telephone number, you can uh donate by uh using my number, or you can use Zeba D E B A W E B as N Boy E L at Gmail.com again.

D S N dog E B S M Boy, A, W E, B as M Boy, E L at Gmail.com.

Thank you for this time.

God bless you all.

Thank you.

Who do we have next?

The next caller is not that Karen.

Not that Karen.

You have two minutes.

Hello.

Good morning.

Two minutes.

Can you hear us?

Yeah, yeah, I can hear you.

Great.

You can hear me.

Um, thank you for your punctuality um today.

We know that you know, even though you guys don't drive buses being late is the same as a bus driver being late to pick up passengers, they're paying passengers.

So thank you for your punctuality.

Um the bus shelter, the new bus shelter at Wyoming and Curtis.

So I'm glad to see that.

Now, I personally don't ride the bus, but people are always standing there and they're subject to the elements.

Only wish we could start installing shelter um solar in these shelters so they could have a certain amount of heat to keep them warm as they wait for these buses.

Especially when they're they're they're not necessarily on time.

The bus shelter on at McNichols and Green Lawn.

It after several accidents, I guess the I just decided not to replace it at all.

So the people just have to sit there in the cold.

I wish we could relocate that shelter and possibly uh find a better better than that intersection.

That's a terribly tight intersection when people try to turn.

And with the ice now going to be on the on the um on the surface, it's going to be subject, people be subject to a direct impact if there's um a car out of control trying to make that turn uh going on Green Lawn and McNichols.

So we need to get that replaced and relocated if possible.

City of Detroit uh retirees, general retirees.

Uh I I know there's been a fast track to align.

We don't want a fast track, we simply want our money back.

Um, you know, fast track would be fine if it led to us uh, you know, certainly getting our our money back.

It's cold outside, homeless.

We need shelters open.

We need alternatives to shelters.

Um possibly we have them, but we need to replace the housing so we can get the homeless off the street.

We don't need young children sitting in cars, subject to uh carbon dioxide um poisoning while they're waiting for their parents, single parents to find shelter.

Thank you for taking my call.

Thank you.

Who do we have next?

The next caller is William M.

Davis.

Mr.

Davis, you have two minutes.

Uh good morning.

Can I be heard?

You may be heard.

Good morning to you.

Okay, I have to say I agree to everything not that Karen just said.

Also, I for those who may not know, I'm uh a couple of months ago I was uh asked to serve, and I'm serving now as the Metro Detroit Alpac uh civilian leader.

And we just recently interviewed, and we're gonna have the Dearborn chief of police as the law enforcement uh you know, you know, co-leader.

Um for those who don't know, uh pack is advocates and leaders for police and community trust.

Uh Detroit Metro All Pac is comprised of community civil rights, government, and law enforcement.

Um I think we can do a better job.

Uh the city Detroit police department used to send people to our meetings.

Uh they have not had no one come for a while.

I think that's a big mistake because just looking at the like one of the reasons why I asked and wanted the chief of police in Dearborn to be a uh law enforcement co-leader is the fact that uh they have an excellent dashboard you know for the police department.

Firmdale has a uh a pretty good dashboard too.

The CD trait can do a much better job.

I think we need to be looking around and seeing what's going on in other communities, uh seeing what resources we could possibly still yet get and knowledge we can get from other communities and on the state and federal level.

Uh there's so much more the city can and should be doing, but especially city need to be doing more to help the city of Detroit retirees.

Um I just like to say that the health department could be better, the Detroit Police Department could be better.

Uh public safety can and should be better.

And I would like to ask everybody to have a good day and not enjoy Veterans Day tomorrow because a lot of us don't celebrate and recognize the the the sacrifice our veterans have made, especially black veterans in this country.

Thank you.

Thank you.

We've got two, at least that I know of black veterans in the audience today.

I'm not sure if we have any additional veterans.

If you are, thank you for your service and your sacrifice.

Who do we have next?

The next caller is Miko A.

Williams.

Mr.

Williams, you have two minutes.

Hello, can I be heard, please?

You can.

Two minutes, sir.

Yes, hi.

Um, you know, it's really sad.

Um that I would like to be hopeful and optimistic about the future of the city.

But I'm not, you know.

We have too many problems that go unaddressed.

Everybody wants to be popular on Instagram, on social media, acting like they're doing something, and they're really not.

The city's website is still uh handling uh old information.

It's not updated, it's not up to the point.

We still have police and fire that are not being adequately paid.

Ambulances breaking down, police cruisers not in force, and then they come here and they beg for new monies uh from ARPA funding, and yet we still cannot get no resolutions.

We still we still have problems with affordable housing.

You cannot get a house uh or apartment in downtown Detroit without it being reserved, and then the developers going back on their word and giving up the Brownsville credits.

We also have people that are homeless that are starving and they are not being adequately met with city services and or uh compassion from the groups, organizations, and nonprofits that occupy the city.

Um, you know, I'm I'm leaving.

I'm out of here.

I'm I'm gone.

I'm gonna protect my peace.

I've done 15 to almost 20 years of council watching.

I've also been involved in many things that we, the citizens have won, but also the establishment has put us up against, and they have pushed us to the to the limit.

Uh, I am tired of being gentrified.

I am tired of fighting for people who are not gonna stand up for us, and I'm also tired of these officials that keep getting back in these seats, not respecting the taxpayer citizen, legacy detroiters, all for developers and big money bags that enrich themselves and their people and leave us out in the cold.

You know, it's not giving up, it's not giving in, it's simply getting tired.

I wish Detroit would revolt and get you all out of there.

Have a good day.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And I hope that you will give us a second, third, and fourth chance here in the city of Detroit.

We wish to keep serving you and that you continue to be a resident in the city.

Who do we have next?

The next caller is Jadante Smith.

Mr.

Smith, you have two minutes.

Good morning, may I be heard?

You have two minutes, sir.

Yes, you may.

Good morning, Scott.

How are you?

I just want to say, you know what I'm gonna ask.

And I know you can read my mind about what I want.

Um, I would love for you to down zone the Cronos Concubus City located at 3405 Gay Lord.

Um, I know you're not gonna do that because you take tons of money from the Maroon family.

I have a thousand page uh document with all of these properties owned by the Maroon family.

I'm going to go to all 800 lots and I'm going to check the dirt and see if Guy Yonga has torn down any of these properties on these lots and see if there's any contaminated dirt.

I also want to say I implore any at-large member, uh, Mary Waters, Coleman and Young, to do the down zoning for Kronos Cocky facilities, similar to the down zoning that was done by Gabriela Santiago Romero.

Um, I'm not sure what year, but for Core City and the concrete facility and a very similar situation in the neighborhood, but residents did not want this facility.

We have 800 signatures, we have multiple businesses around the concrete facility at 3405 Gay Lord.

Um, and we want to get that facility shut down.

I'm not even a district three resident, but I have done more for district three.

And since I've been discovering all of this this travesty around this plant and all of this solar farm business than Scott Benson has done for his own district.

Um, and I would love to see other people from all around the city step in to get this facility shut down because if it was your neighborhood, you would not want toxic dust that can give you a special type of cancer being spewing all around your neighborhood.

And you also wouldn't think that it'll be fair for one property to be under a thousand properties bundled with combined in a thousand properties for all for blight tickets.

So any blight ticket on all thousand of these properties goes away with one agreement.

I don't think anybody will find that fair because as a civilian, you can't get any any type of preferential treatment like that.

And I think that the Maroon family or Crown Enterprises or any namesake that they have should have that same amount of um privilege.

And I'll ask you, Scott Benson, to down zone this property.

And if not, that's okay.

But in two years, you're getting a recall, and I'm gonna get enough money.

I'm gonna get enough people, and I'm gonna get you out.

Thank you.

Thank you.

And if we can staff can please provide Mr.

Smith with the contact information of BC and they can support him in going out and testing the soil of those 800 vacant lots.

Thank you.

Who do we have next?

Mr.

Chair, the next caller is caller number ending 169, call number ending 169.

Caller 169, you have two minutes.

Hello, can you guys hear me?

We can.

You have two minutes, sir.

Great.

I just want to say why is the hate so great?

Why is the hate so great?

Why is the hate so great?

Why is the hate so great?

Um, Keith Cunningham and your prayers on his Facebook page.

I always see him praying for you, me, and everybody.

Everybody always waste money, find a way to get money through his hand instead of using Uber and Lyft, use him.

Thank you for my time.

All right, thank you.

Who do we have next?

Mr.

Chair, we're going to go back to owner Papa.

Owner Papa, you have two minutes.

Good morning, and through the chair, may I be heard?

You may be heard.

Good morning.

Good morning.

Uh, yes, I agree with uh not that Karen, I agree with uh Miss Warwick and many of the callers who are calling them to ask this committee, this city council to do the right thing for the people.

You say you wish, you don't need to wish, because you get to vote.

And so when you're voting on these things, such as giving our surplus dollars to corporate America is a travesty.

And every last one of you voted for it.

And that says to me that I don't need to pay you this city any taxes because if you're gonna take my surplus dollars and give them to um rich people, then you don't need my money, because I don't have a money tree in my yard where I go out and pluck money off the tree.

Um I my my taxes that I pay come from hard work and the blessings of the Lord, but hard work on my part.

Uh I'm not I'm not I'm not down with paying you any more taxes uh because people are leaving because you're not utilizing our taxes in an equitable way.

You're not using our federal dollars in an equitable way.

The reason why I know this is because the statistics keep telling me from the federal government that we're three times the poverty rate.

Well, in 2024, the poverty rate had increased that I want to know what this committee did to um act on that number.

You have the ability to look at what's going on and and support the people in the way in which they need it.

Now we have three times the poverty level.

And I just noticed they raised the largest salvation army um um kettle over the city of Detroit, and also they're bringing in um the RoboCop.

That's exactly what this committee has been doing, making the people poor, and then sicking the police on our youth and on our citizens, and then indemnifying them.

This is uh evil, evil way.

Thank you.

All right, thank you.

I hope you also attend the world's largest Kwanzaa Canara lighting on the 26th of December.

Do we have any additional members?

anybody else for public comment?

Mr.

Chair, there was one hand raised, but that was after you cut off public comment just for the record.

Okay, after public comment, we they cannot be heard.

All right, let's go into our agenda.

All right, motion to approve the minutes.

Without objection, this body will approve the minutes.

We will forego chair remarks, go to LPD.

Any update on the charter section six, TAC two, TAC 5.

Mr.

Chair.

Uh section well, six TAC two five.

Maybe it is section, maybe this six.

There isn't uh well, maybe there's one indicating we were violating that provision of the charter.

Well, the the one I have like I say, the one I can find is six two oh five.

Okay.

And that is that's the one involving public hearings.

Okay.

And the requirement.

I'll read it.

It's because it's short.

In your okay, go ahead.

In your read, do you think we're violating that provision?

I'm I'm unaware if we're violating it, but there's it's very broad, so I don't I don't know all the facts, but no, I I don't think there's I'm not aware of any violations of this.

Okay, that's fine.

Thank you very much.

Sure.

Okay.

Then unfinished business, and we have Mr.

Justin Onwainu.

If you will please come take a seat here.

But before that, let's handle some business.

And with that objection, we're going to go out of order.

We have a number of one-week bringbacks and one receive and file.

And I believe we only have one action item other than the introduction of agenda.

Uh line item five point two, that is contract number three zero eight seven five six six.

Notification to council, one hundred percent bond funding to provide an emergency demolition for the residential property at one two eight eight eight chapel.

This has re been requested for a one-week bringback motion.

Motion without objection, this body will bring back line item five point two in one week.

Then we have section five point four.

This is status with council member Gabriela Santiago Romero, submitting memorandum relative to data and on incidents regarding food vendors.

There's been a request to bring back in one week.

Request a motion, motion without objections by bringing back flight item 5.4 in one week.

Status of count line 5.5, which is status of council member Scott Benson, submitting memorandum relative to request for legal opinion on process to close Cronos concrete in district three.

Motion to discuss.

Discussion.

Law department.

Through the Chair Graham Anderson Law Department.

This memo is complete, but I know there was an interest in waiving privilege.

Speaking with attorney long and corporation counsel, we see no reason um why um there would be any problem with waiving privilege uh as such, if it's the will of the body at formal session to uh approve such a vote, the law department will not stand in the way.

All right, thank you.

My office will take that on from consideration.

Motion to receive and file line item five point five.

Motion right that objections body will receive and file line item five point five, and then a direction to my staff.

Please prepare a memo requesting um waiving of privilege of that resolution, and we'll make that motion in the formal session.

Line item 5.6 status of council member Letitia Johnson submitting memorandum relative to request for report on travel in motion to bring back in one week.

Motion that objections body will bring back line item 5.6 in one week.

Line item 5.7 status of council member Letitia Johnson submitted memorandum relative to questions regarding stormwater management policy.

Motion to bring back in one week.

Motion that objections body will bring back a line item 5.7 in one week.

Line item 5.8 status of council president Mary Sheffield submitting memorandum relative to request for a report on flood mitigation solutions on West Grand Boulevard.

Motion to bring back in one week.

Motion.

That objections body will bring back line item 5.8 in one week.

That will take us to line item 5.3.

This is our one action item outside of our ordinance.

Status of Office of Contracting and Procurement Contract Number 3087968.

Notification to council, 100% bond funding to provide an emergency alteration for the commercial property at 5631 Stanton Contractor Adamo Demolition Company out of on East Seven Mile contract period through June 30, 2026.

Total contract amount 10,000 dollars.

Motion to approve or motion to approve.

Motion to approve.

Discussion.

If we can have someone from the administration speak.

Good morning, Mr.

Chair Gail Fulton on behalf of the administration.

Today, Director Council and Mr.

Eric Cooper online.

Thank you.

Thank you.

Do we have any questions from colleagues?

All right.

I don't have any questions either.

So then unless the administration wants to speak.

This open it for discussion.

Oh, unless the administration wants to speak on this, there's been a motion to approve.

Without objection, this motion will be approved.

Okay.

Then let's go to line item 5.1.

We have Mr.

Onwehu here to discuss this line item.

And this is for an introduction of an ordinance.

And this is a very long summary for the ordinance.

So we're going to summarize this extensive summary.

So it's going to be a summary on the summary.

And this is to amend Chapter 41, the 2019 Detroit City Code, Second Hand Goods by amending Article 1 Junk Dealers, Junk Vehicles, and Junk Collectors.

Division 1 generally by amending and renaming Section 41 TAC 1 TAC 6 records to be kept, examination of certain articles by police department or designated enforcement officer, and by amending Section 41, TAC 1, TAC 7, junk purchased or exchanged.

And what we're looking to do here is to ensure that secondhand goods, junk items, secondhand parts vehicles are properly recorded, that there's an electronic database, which I believe will be at will be a um reviewable by the city of Detroit for the future.

This is to reduce the ability for people to sell stolen goods and stolen parts within the city of Detroit.

We have many six incidents where people have gone to find their water heaters, their auto parts, or things of that nature at secondhand shops and or at pawn shops.

Motion to discuss.

Discussion, yeah.

Member Waters.

So I thought we already had that in place.

We did that's a question for the administration.

Okay.

All right, administration.

All right.

So we also have uh Lieutenant Miller on the line, just FYI, but I can speak to this, which is that currently secondhand goods dealers have to take note of the materials that they're taking in, but they're written records.

And so oftentimes they're not abiding by that.

It can be difficult to see what records actually exist.

And so this ordinance provides that those records be kept electronically so that it's easier for for DPD to take note and track those items.

And so and so if they should sell something, if they should purchase something rather that they have not reported electronically, then that's a big problem.

Exactly.

And that's how you hold them accountable.

Exactly.

Well, that's good.

Is the land sync do anything about that as well?

So there this has really been a local effort around the country.

So cities around the country are are making sure to use systems like leads online uh uh to better track materials as they come in.

So really been a local effort.

Um hopefully we'll see larger action at the state level, but for now it's uh a real local effort.

Yeah, I re I remember when I was in Lansing, I passed uh the first bill as it relates to scrap metal junk.

Yeah.

Absolutely.

Okay, if if we can get if we can hold them accountable, that that's a real good thing.

Absolutely.

And so they always find a way to be slick and get out of it, but okay.

Absolutely.

So this would require please go ahead and go over the ordinance.

Okay.

Yes.

No, no, let them go right ahead.

Okay.

I might have some other questions.

So first it's that um and feel free to to come in, uh, Lieutenant Miller, but first is that DPD would have to designate a system, so a system like Leads Online for electronic records to be kept.

These records are already mandated, but they're not electronic.

So all of the uh businesses uh must register with this online system, it would be of no cost.

So DPD currently has a subscription to uh this system, and so it would be free for business owners to actually come on and use that electronic system.

They may need to uh provide for webcam or fingerprint scanner so that those records where they are required um are able to be kept electronically.

These reports would include things like the um item description.

So if an item maybe doesn't even have an ID, the description of the item so that um so that that is kept as well as payment method, transaction time, other records that will be kept uh electronically.

It also gives the city the authority when you see an actor that is taking in a lot of material that we find out has been stolen or where they are not keeping records, it gives the city a hook to be able to not renew a license um and to hold these actors accountable.

So really just making sure um that these electronic that these records that are already required at the city and state level are kept electronically, uh ensuring that business owners that this is accessible, it provides that DPD would give a 60-day window to make sure that businesses can get online and can um can assimilate to this process um and then holds holds bad actors accountable when necessary is the basic outline.

Okay.

Waters any questions?

Well, um, how many of these businesses do we have in the city?

So we can get you uh a number back from BC, but all of the um the businesses that are covered under this chapter would be required to do it here because part of the ordinance.

Yeah, I'd like to know how many they are.

And then I'd like to know um the equipment costs in order for them to do it to file electronically.

Um because you're gonna have some of them say, Well, you know, I can't afford this, I can't do this, I can't do that.

Right because they're used to just keeping paper records or no records.

Right.

So um do you have any idea about what such equipment is gonna cost them?

So the vast majority of folks will are are only required to keep the basic um item description, ID.

There's some items in which you'd have to take you know a photo of the individual who's bringing that material or fingerprints, and those are already required.

Um so simple webcam, you know, you can find a webcam for less than $30, and the and and likely the same on the fingerprint side.

Well, I like the idea of myself of of the photos.

Oh my god, in case, you know, just in case you're purchasing fire hydrants and things like that.

So I was just saying I I I really like the idea of of photos before they purchase those things.

But I know you say some of them are required for you know photos for some things.

The rest of them are just descriptions.

Exactly.

And and ID numbers, etc.

Mm-hmm.

Okay.

Okay.

Any additional questions?

Uh not that I can think of right now.

Okay.

Do we we do have DPD who's joined us?

Do they have any contribution to this conversation?

Uh chair, uh, thank you.

It sounds like uh Justin did a great job covering um the thousand-foot view on the ordinance.

Um, and really, like he said, the goal is to improve record keeping and ensure that the department is able to identify when businesses are not in compliance so that we can first come alongside of them and educate them so that they understand what is proper in this new procedure.

Um this new ordinance, and then um if we identify a pattern uh where these businesses are not in compliance, then we would be able to take uh further action against that.

Okay.

And so we've got a few questions on this one.

So we we had a question on equipment cost, how many businesses would be subject to this ordinance.

And then my question is when would you all look to implement the ordinance?

When would you all start holding the businesses accountable if they have not come on board yet?

So the the ordinance provides that DPD must designate the system and leads online is the likely system that DPD already has a subscription to and would be used.

So 60 days from that point is when businesses would be expected.

Um and speaking with DPD and BC, there is not any uh plan to start finding and holding sort of folks accountable if on the 61st day they haven't registered, so there really will be a education and an outreach component to this.

Um there have been some conversations about making sure we're using our DBLs and our other resources to reach businesses effectively, but 60 days from point of designation from DPD.

Okay, so say this were to go into effect on say one February.

What would you do to educate people?

What kind of training would there be if you use leads online?

What is the cost to that business to go?

Do they have to have a subscription?

So the cost to the business is zero.

Um the lease online subscription is is paid through DPD, and so zero cost to the business on the leads online part.

The outreach piece, the ordinance requires that written notices be sent out to each of the businesses that would be impacted.

So our expectation is that people would get notice in that way.

Um, and then if there are additional um challenges that are tied to outreach, then we'd we'd assess those that as necessary.

Okay, and then what is your office done to go above and beyond that then?

And oftentimes we send out a notice, which is often not enough.

It comes from the city, you see a city envelope that gets thrown in the trash, right?

Or just gets overlooked, don't over in that pile, and you never you just never get to it.

Has there been any outreach to any uh community organizations?

I'm not sure there is a lobbying arm or if there is an active uh business association that supports these businesses if they're organized at all.

What have we done to get the word out that we're actually doing this?

Have we got any feedback from that community or business owners?

Yeah, I think the the main point of feedback is making sure that we do have a transition period so that this doesn't take immediate effect.

So that 60 day window is is partially in result of improving the ordinance in that way, making sure that the uh leads online subscription is at zero cost, I think was important that we will be doing outreach, and DPD can speak to this, but we'll be doing outreach to um you know business associations, neighborhood groups, et cetera, as well as the written notices that are required.

So there will be outreach once the ordinance passed, once the uh leads online is designated as well.

And so here's my concern doing outreach once it becomes law versus prior to it becoming law doesn't give an opportunity for those who will be regulated by this new law the opportunity to give you feedback.

You're getting feedback after the law has been implemented.

So what have you all done to go over to the pawn shop to go to the secondhand dealer to go to the uh used auto parts lot?

We've got one an eight-mile near Hoover.

What have you all done to engage at least a minimal number of businesses to get some type of feedback on that?

Yeah, I know DPD maybe can speak to this when it sort of came to my door, but I think there has been this has long been considered, um, and so maybe they can speak to that.

Yeah, we we regularly engage with these businesses while we're conducting business inspections.

Um, and so when we're going through their books, we're identifying uh methods for them and discussing with them how could we improve this process?

So that's an ongoing uh discussion that my team is having with these various businesses during business inspections.

Okay, so what kind of feedback have you received?

Um a lot of the feedback has been that they want it to be something that's simple, something that's not too difficult to implement.

And um really that's what it boils down to is how can they easily implement it without too many additional challenges?

And so that's what we've been looking at this leads online um because it will allow uh really just simple line item input through a web-based portal.

Is the system intuitive or will there be some training required?

And if there is training required, you can't speak to anybody else's staff on their ability and capacity, and sometimes you have those who don't have a capacity to easily engage with the digital format.

What opportunities are there for there to be training from the city to ensure that they can comply?

Yeah, so not only from the city side, but also with the vendor.

We've had discussions with them and they've um they have a very um step-by-step process for bringing uh vendors, I'm sorry, for bringing businesses online with their system that will walk them through, and then they also have uh a helpline where they can get in contact and actually speak directly with the vendor for any issues they're having with either the technological side or as they're putting items in.

So we're gonna be working hand in hand with the vendor to ensure that there aren't any issues in this uh transition period.

Okay, and then from your professional judgment, do you think that's sufficient?

Yes, I do.

And if it's not, then we get additional feedback, then that would be the time where my team and I would uh identify stepping back a little bit and ensuring that we don't take any enforcement actions prematurely.

Okay, member waters.

All right, thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

Uh people will often say that the conversation never was never had.

I mean, it can happen, and then they try to find ways to to sue the city.

So I want us to take it a step further and um send something to each of those businesses via registered mail, uh, put them on notice that this is happening and just outline the key points of such an ordinance.

It it needs to happen.

It can't be that many.

I'm I'm sure it you know, it could be 200 of them, I'm not sure.

Right, but I don't think that it hurts us to be proactive and send that to them.

Um just a brief description of this ordinance via registered mail, have them to sign for it uh so that we will have that have that on file.

We need to be able to do that.

And so we um we talked about the equipment called so there are penalties, you know, misdemeanors and so forth uh that are in the ordinance.

What type of penalties are we talking?

For example, because some of them are willing to just pay the fine, and and then that'll be the end of that.

So what type of penalties, and then at what point do we close that business through the chair?

So a couple of things.

The the main goal is to provide a a hook for not renewing licenses where there is will for purposeful um leaving out of information, refusing to register this information.

So I think that is the main goal is to revoke or to refuse to renew licenses when there is.

Can I remind you of something?

There are some of them here operating without a license too.

Absolutely.

I I'm just saying we we've got to find a way to get them, close them down if they don't have a license, and then but but go ahead with the that's the penalty to lose their license how after how many times, how many violations?

So right now the ordinance and 4193 provides that when there is woeful failure to register with the with the designated reporting system, when there's repeated or woeful failing to report a transaction, um, and when there is intentional failing to collect or submit certain information that's required to be submitted, or knowingly submitting information that's inaccurate or false.

Um, too vague.

How many, how many times?

What's woefully?

Yeah.

How many times?

I think the challenge with um with having a sort of boxed, you know, two or more transactions is that it it provides a little wiggle room for a DPD.

Yeah.

The reason I'm saying is that there's always wiggle room for folks who can afford an attorney and stuff.

Well, woefully, you know, I sometimes we just need to be more um specific about about what how many times it takes, and then what will happen after that period of time.

I just don't think that we do enough of that.

I think that's that's great uh feedback, especially on uh I think we were trying to balance, you know, someone who forgets a record um and then is hit with an immediate $500 file.

We we recognize that that happens to residents all the time, and you know, um but I think that is the that was the concern and wanting to provide some space uh for business owners as needed.

Yeah, we would my motion be.

So what would be an appropriate number of times of willful neglect or just not participating or complying with the ordinance?

Yeah.

And so that it's not completely vague, that we actually give a a a definite number so people know.

So if I'm Mr.

Procrastination, I'll get to it eventually I'll comply versus those who strictly comply with the ordinance and they see their fellow business owners who just don't comply.

They oh I'm sorry I didn't do it'll get done next time.

The next time is the tenth time, and they still have not been ordered to comply or been held accountable.

Why not provide as my colleagues requesting an accountability number?

What's that number?

What should it be?

What do you think is is reasonable?

So in my in my opinion, and this is just my opinion, but I think you know, three or more strikes me as a as a good balance.

Um strikes and you would defer to DPD and to you all as members of this committee to to make that hard number.

Can we hear from DPD and DPD?

DPD.

No, I would agree with Justin's assessment.

Three or more does seem like a good um balance where you can't just say, Oh, we forgot, oh, we forgot, or we forgot, and just keep pushing it down the road that way.

Yeah, because they will kick that can down the road.

I agree.

Until you hold me accountable.

So then what would the where in the ordinance would that language could we can make that amendment now?

So it would be four dash, let me see 4193.

I was going to say 41 something.

4193.

4193, yeah.

Well, they talks about the misdemeanor violation and so forth.

Yes.

4193.

All right.

And it would be two provides repeatedly and woefully failing to report a transaction as required by the subsection.

So it could read uh repeatingly and willfully failing to report.

Currently it says a transaction, so there's you know space if it's one transaction and it's egregious, but you could read that to say three or more transactions.

Okay.

Member Waters, is that a motion you plan to make?

Yeah, yeah.

We and I just want to hear from the law department their take on a modification to the orders of that language.

Through the Chair Graham Anderson Law Department, it certainly can be done.

Uh I'm not sure.

I'm not the drafting attorney, so I'm not sure if it's as simple as just making that edit there, that that doesn't impact other language throughout the ordinance that would potentially have to be amended as well.

Um I don't believe it would be a substantive change.

Um, but I I would ask for time to review that.

Yes, and Mr.

Chairman, then we're not gonna move this up today anyway, right?

I it needs to go back to that lawyer and tell them about that discussion and stuff because we need to have some, you know, something in this is ordinance that's I mean, you know, because otherwise they're gonna just continue to run amok, you know.

Um so uh so we can bring this back in one week.

So this we can, but here's this here's the challenge.

What we are quickly running up against the end of the year.

Our last session, we have two formal sessions remaining in the year.

We have two public health and safety standing committee sessions left.

If we don't move this to new business for introduction today, which would happen on the 14th, this will not get heard this calendar year.

At least it will not be it cannot be voted upon this calendar year.

Is that so bad?

Personally, I'm not going to provide uh my own judgment on that.

I'm sure that there are others who have a judgment on that.

I'm just speaking procedurally.

Yeah, what we can and cannot do.

Through the chair, Mr.

Onway.

So the the and understanding completely the the dynamic that you've described, which is that if we don't have hard and fast rules, people can wiggle out of things.

Uh, but 4193 does provide that if there is repeated and willful failing to report a transaction um as required that that folks be held accountable.

We could seek guidance from DPD and BC on the implementation side to make sure that there are um standards that are adhered to that are not based on sort of folks' individual assessments of what repeated and and willful looks like.

Uh so I think that's an option as well, even if it is not codified as a certain set number in the ordinance.

Discussion?

Yeah, thank you, Mr.

Chairman.

I don't like not having a number because I know what we're dealing with uh in this city.

They look for every reason to just skate by things.

Not if you think that even if we set it to a new business, you know, prior to the hearing, that we can at least have that conversation with the with the drafter uh of this ordinance to make sure that we can uh put such language in there.

I mean, I I'm willing to do that as well.

Okay, but but it it needs to be there if it's possible.

It really does.

Otherwise, you know, we can keep doing ordinances and it means nothing uh to people because they will find wigger room, a way to just get right out of it, a way to continue to violate with no penalties.

Member Waters, before you answer that, I am a firm believer in accountability, and I would support your motion to add a finite number, i.e.

three, to the ordinance.

Making that change now in Madam Parliamentary and Law Department, please correct me if I'm wrong, allows for this ordinance to be modified, the summary to be changed if necessary, and it gives us the greater flexibility now.

If we wanted to make a change of that nature after it's introduced in a public hearing set, we that could derail that process and mean that it definitely couldn't happen this year.

Unless if we do this now, move it to new business, which would mean it could be heard on Friday during formal session, referred for the introduction of a referred for a public hearing.

Either I think that would have to take place on the 24th.

I think we'd have enough time legally to do it then, which then means it could be voted on the 25th.

SANS, this being heard or introduced on the 14th and a public hearing set, this ordinance dies this year and would have to be taken up again by a new shepherd next year.

I I'd like to give the opportunity for it to get out.

This is really going to be up to my colleague today because there's only two of us.

And so this is your decision.

I support making that change.

And through you, Mr.

Chairman, if if I may, I want to ask attorney Anderson if he could just state the language that's a possibility.

I'm not saying carved in stone because you didn't you didn't draft a bill, but a potential language.

If you could state that so that that could be my motion, because I do want a finite number through the chair.

I think the the request would simply be to add in the uh the three strike violation, something along those lines as as we discussed, I think would be appropriate regarding the timeliness of the situation.

I ideally it would be moved as amended today.

Okay.

However, I believe it could also be amended on Friday as well.

To the law department at the table prior to the prior to the setting of a public hearing.

Correct.

During the reading of the introduction.

Correct.

Madam Parliamentarian, do you concur?

Um I would just um uh respond, if I may, um to the suggestion that there may be other places in the uh ordinance that might have to be changed as Law mentioned.

Um so perhaps you would know that by uh time to introduce it or add language and any other place in the ordinance that would be affected by um but I'm not the lawyer.

Okay, thank you.

Member Waters what we'll do.

We'll add this uh three strikes today.

If in fact the the drafter comes back and says it's gonna affect, we'll know that by Friday because the drafter will have an opportunity to take a look at it.

Correct.

We can either roll with it uh as amended, or there might be a couple other uh changes that we have to make on Friday.

For the chair, that sounds appropriate on my end.

Okay, we have two coming up.

LPD, thank you, Mr.

Chair.

I agree with everything that's been said, and the only thing I would add, just so it's clear to everybody.

I've I've never done this actually, being with LPD, because at this point in the process, law takes it over.

But as I understand it, if this committee votes to add language, it's a proposal that the rest of the council would have to approve approve anyway, and therefore taking it Friday would be necessary anyway, is what I'm thinking.

All right, Mr.

On Wynnum.

Through the chair, I think I think that's a great amendment, and it would be in my view 4193, and then it's B2, and then it would read failing to report three or more transactions as required instead of failing to report a transaction.

All right, that's the same.

That's my motion, yes.

Without objection, that motion will pass.

So this ordinance has now been modified with that language.

The law department will work with the administration as well to ensure that if that language triggers other necessary changes within the ordinance, that will take place as well.

And so what council will see if this moves out today on the 14th of November will be this ordinance as modified.

And if there are additional changes, that my colleague will be notified immediately so that we can understand what's going on here.

And then member waters, you'll be prepared to have this conversation at the table.

Sure.

Okay.

On Friday.

All right.

Um, any additional questions or concerns on this ordinance?

No.

Okay.

And so then motion to move the new business.

For introduction.

Introduction and setting up a public hearing.

As modified.

As modified, as amended.

As amended.

Without objection, this or that motion will pass.

This ordinance will be moved to new business for the introduction and setting up a public hearing as amended.

Thank you.

Then question to the parliamentarian.

And so oftentimes ordinances are up for consideration in the committee.

They are then moved out without any modifications for introduction and setting of a public hearing.

Does that create a concern if changes, significant changes are requested during that public hearing portion that are not included in the summary, which could cause the committee to have to set an additional public hearing?

I would defer to law on that.

Um, but as it's my understanding that you have to stay within the four corners of the summary.

After once it's been introduced.

Once it's introduced, and yes.

Through the chair, I concur.

Okay, and so I just this is for the assemble body here.

It is best to make these type of substantive changes prior to an ordinance being introduced and a public hearing set.

There is far greater leeway and the ability to make changes at the committee level prior to it being introduced.

This body has gotten away from that, and so I just want to make sure that that is heard and recognized personally.

I believe a better way to do policy and legislation is to have these conversations prior to the introduction, because at that point we can go ahead and move through quickly versus having to look at setting another public hearing.

It's best to have these conversations early, and we've gotten away from that as a body.

I just want to make sure that that's highlighted and bubbles back to the top again.

I'm looking forward to this conversation on Friday.

So without any disbot this body has moved the ordinance forward, and I just want to make sure that that got onto the record as well.

Okay.

All right.

That is our last item.

Okay.

Do we have member reports?

No.

No member report.

It is now 1104.

I think we should do something else prior to adjourning.

Do what?

I don't know, it was just 1104.

Hello, everyone.

Okay.

All right.

I I do not have a member report with.